Hey guys, I'm just wondering what the issue is with 40k players and metal minis. I've seen complaints about metal showing through the paint or paint chipping off of the model easily, but that can be solved with a good coat of primer. I've been painting metal miniatures for years and I was under the assumption that metal was prefered to plastic. I certainly prefer to work with metal miniatures. I'm not trying to knock anyones style here, I'm just curious. Thanks in advance.


P.S. Are plastic models more popular with younger gamers and hobbyists? And as such, are metal minis more popular with older gamers?

I have to say I prefer the conversion ease that is accompanied by plastic. As for me conversions are a massive part of the hobby as it leads to your own unique creations. Now that said metal does have its uses. Allthough I am more fond of finecast now that most of the casting issues have been worked out.

Most people hate finecast but I find that its overall decent material and i enjoy working with it. It makes converting previously metal only hqs and Lords a dream.

Personally if I could have my entire army in metal I would, and I have been collecting and painting for over 10 years, so perhaps your theory is correct... I will be interested to find out the results of this. :-)

The question of whether some are more popular with one group or another is really un answerable. As theres a lot from both groups that prefer one over the other.

Some older hobbyists that came in with the pewter stick with them mainly for a nostalgic feel.

Because when I start losing, It's good that my dead pile can be used to brain my opponent.

I love the metal models personally, they have a great weight, especially with the monsters. I don't think paint chipping is the problem if people clear-coated their models. The problem was putting them together, because some were a pain to assemble.

Also I dropped one of my metal plague marines once, it survived without even a scratch, although there was quite a dent in my shelves though, where it landed

I myself have been around the hobby since I was 4 years of age (second generation wargamer lol) As my father played it religously and owned a small game store when I was growing up. Though I didnt really take my actual steps into the hobby till much later. I honestly like the two basic materials equaly as they both have pros and cons that bieng said im also liking fine cast.


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Arm.chair.general wrote: The problem was putting them together, because some were a paint to assemble.

That is very true. Im still trying to get a '98 marauder Wyverm model to pin together properly. Such a pain to do its almost unbearable lol.

I'm with you jirc, I would love an all metal army. But on the other hand metal does present a certain level of difficulty when trying to convert a mini.

I don't understand it myself, the detailing is better with metal figures, you get greater undercut, and weight is satisfying. Maybe if finecast improves it will be a good replacement.

Plastic has lots of advantages, easy to glue, soft, strong. It's nice - bit different.

The metal-hate, don't get it at all, it's not that hard to work with. I guess it mostly is newer gamers because older gamers are used to a large proportion of metal figures.

Whole armies were metal, the few plastics were crude. With 2nd ed 40K if you didn't want the gak plastic marines out the box you had to make an entirely metal army. I think the RT plastic marines were better but you couldn't get them by 2nd ed. Collecting a Skaven fantasy army was a nightmare, a ton of lead, the alternative being some pretty poor plastics. Now gamers make a fuss because a few single characters are metal. Pfft.

Ever since I "inherited" my fathers D&D collection from the 70's and 80's I find myself drawn to every metal mini I can find. I told myself I was going to make an IG army using the plastic Cadian sets but then I saw the metal Vostroyans on the GW website and couldn't help myself

Problem with those old D&D figures is the high lead content. If not stored correctly they corrode.

I had heard that they have a tendency to corrode but its been over thirty years and they don't show any signs of it.

I used to be vehemently anti-plastic and all about the metal, it was generally more detailed and the weight gave a feeling of worth that you just don't get from plastic.

That being said plastic has come along way with the multi-part kits allowing you to field entire regiments with a decent amount of individuality that you have a hand in deciding. They're easier to assemble, super easy to convert or 'kitbash' and are generally more cost effective.

All of these reasons have caused me to switch camps to the point where I actively avoid metal. Times are a'changin

I feel its easier to justify paying $35 for metal models than it is paying the same price for plastic. I'm not anti-plastic, I just prefer using metal.

Guardlard01 wrote:I had heard that they have a tendency to corrode but its been over thirty years and they don't show any signs of it.

It's dependent upon the way you store them. One cause of corrosion is the chemicals used in some wooden furniture. So if you have an old cupboard or box the chemical leaches out and reacts with the lead. Certainly the lead figures in a particular oak cupboard in this house show a very high frequency of corrosion.

One cause of corrosion is the chemicals used in some wooden furniture. So if you have an old cupboard or box the chemical leaches out and reacts with the lead.

Thankfully I don't have them displayed on any real wood furniture. And if they aren't on display they're tucked away safely in their original box.

I've never understood it. But for me, I love both. I even prefer metal because its getting rare now, because GW doesn't produce many anymore. Its a part of history now

I do have to admit, I like the plastics for conversions. I wish they made both metal and plastic versions of their stuff, just cause haha

Guardlard01 wrote:I feel its easier to justify paying $35 for metal models than it is paying the same price for plastic. I'm not anti-plastic, I just prefer using metal.

That's a secondary subject. Plastic prices, in my opinion, should not be the same or more than metal. That would be a deal-breaker for me, however so far I've been able to collect plastic armies for a much cheaper cost than I ever could of metal. And to be honest, 99% of the time, when painted, most can't tell the difference between the two until physically picking it up. I think a lot of old-time gamers are less fond of the plastics as it feels like a step away from 'figurines' and a step towards them being 'toys'.

I much prefer the metal figures to plastic. I have recently bought my first Finecast model. Putting it together was a breeze and the detail was excellent. But it just doesn't feel right. I've considered coring the base and filling it with a couple of pennies to add some heft to it. I guess I just like knowing that there's something to the figure I just spent $20-$30 on, or more.

Chowderhead wrote:Because when I start losing, It's good that my dead pile can be used to brain my opponent.

I always bring a sock with nickels in it to my FLGS, just in case.

I feel the same way Lord Skulk. I suppose at this point gamers are paying more for the quality of the sculpt of the mini than the material that is being used to produce it.


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I always bring a sock with nickels in it to my FLGS, just in case.

I don't like metal models because they're harder to assemble, harder to paint, heavy, and very easy to break.

Tronzor could i reccomend picking up some two part miliput. Its usualy pretty cheap and if you just fill the bottom of the model with it it will add a nice bit of wieght. Albiet no where near that of a pewter model but deffinatly enough to make it more solid.

Plastic minis are much easier to clean up, assemble and convert, they tend to be more robust, and they're lighter to transport as well.

I've been in the hobby, what... 16 years? So it isn't just a new player thing.

Guardlard01 wrote:

One cause of corrosion is the chemicals used in some wooden furniture. So if you have an old cupboard or box the chemical leaches out and reacts with the lead.

Thankfully I don't have them displayed on any real wood furniture. And if they aren't on display they're tucked away safely in their original box.

That's not enough, we have them in originals boxes/blisters, or in plastic storage boxes, but they were together in a large wooden cupboard. The chemicals released go through everything. First they go black, then they crack and crumble and turn to dust.

That's not enough, we have them in originals boxes/blisters, or in plastic storage boxes, but they were together in a large wooden cupboard. The chemicals released go through everything. First they go black, then they crack and crumble and turn to dust.

Thats terrible news Howard. How many did you lose?

If I might reccomend something Guardlard01 Take your d&d Minis and go out and buy a little fire proof safe and put them in there. The run roughly 25ish bucks and the way they are made its a great way to keep very important things like that safe from chemicals and what not.

I want metal back

Plastic - Nice and easy to convert and glue.
Cleaning it up doesent take a great deal.
Dont mind it over all.

Resin - Easy to glue.
Painting it is a dream, however, the clean up stages are massive.
"Finecast" seems to be very bad quality at the moment, meaning ive been burning through GS trying to fix constant issues with bubbles and poorly moulded parts.
Not to mention that thin parts break soo easily its beyond a joke.
Far less stable than plastic.

Metal - Love it, my 1st mini's were metal though, so its how ive started.
Nice weight, quick clean up, most of the time assembly isnt a real issue (Thirster wings exempt)
Painting it i find is second to resin, but still good enough for me.
Strength wise it wins out.
Even the smaller parts simply bend now and then, which can be set right in a few seconds.
Granted the paint may chip, but as stated, sealer works.

Well TheNewMexicanGeneral I might just do that. Thanks for putting that out there.

Guardlard01 wrote:

That's not enough, we have them in originals boxes/blisters, or in plastic storage boxes, but they were together in a large wooden cupboard. The chemicals released go through everything. First they go black, then they crack and crumble and turn to dust.

Thats terrible news Howard. How many did you lose?

Well my parents were collecting them from when I was young. But I would say that over a dozen crumbled to nothing on a recent examination but we have several dozens more that are black but hopefully not beyond use.

it does seem dependent on the alloy in individual figures, sometimes in a box one will rot and another will be untouched.

Sorry for your run of bad luck. Those old Ral Partha and TSR minis are getting more and more rare as time goes on. At least you haven't lost all of them.

No we have a lot more that are okay, I sold some on ebay for quite a bit recently. There's a strong market for pre-slottas, the trick is to identify what you have exactly and people will bid high.

I have some really characterful figures though, excellent D&D adventurers.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Guardlard01 wrote:

That's not enough, we have them in originals boxes/blisters, or in plastic storage boxes, but they were together in a large wooden cupboard. The chemicals released go through everything. First they go black, then they crack and crumble and turn to dust.

Thats terrible news Howard. How many did you lose?

Well my parents were collecting them from when I was young. But I would say that several dozen crumbled to nothing while we have loads more that are black but hopefully not beyond use.

it does seem dependent on the alloy in individual figures, sometimes in a box one will rot and another will be untouched.

Wow... whatever that chemical is, it sounds pretty potent. Useful info if I encounter any old wood furniture. I remember GW used to make minis in lead, then they switched to white metal - do you know if it affects both?

I attempted a game of D&D with a friend a few months ago. My father was an avid D&D player ever since the pen and paper version ( although I can't get seem to get him to play recently) so I am familiar with the pre-Wizards of the Coast version.
My friend though, thinks the game started with Wizards of the Coast, pre-painted flimsy plastic miniatures and all.
The game went as well as you might imagine.

Guardlard01 wrote: I attempted a game of D&D with a friend a few months ago. My father was an avid D&D player ever since the pen and paper version ( although I can't get seem to get him to play recently) so I am familiar with the pre-Wizards of the Coast version.
My friend though, thinks the game started with Wizards of the Coast, pre-painted flimsy plastic miniatures and all.
The game went as well as you might imagine.

Yeah, those WoTC figures are garbage are VASTLY overpriced. Personally, I pick up Ral Partha, and Reaper models for that. And quite often, since I play Minotaurs alot I build my characters from my Chaos Beastmen.

But hey, thats what kids like. fething plastic.

I think it affects only lead. Tin miniatures can tarnish, but I think this is just a discolouration, it's not corrosion that will eat the figure.

It's an issue with solid hardwood furniture; oak, cedar where acidic compounds are released from the wood and are likely to affect things stored within it.

This applies to modern furniture too, but a lot of the cheaper furniture from IKEA these days is composite wood pulp and fibres, so it's not proper solid wooden furniture so I think this is okay, it's not full of chemicals in the same way. Storing them on open shelving or a way that allows some ventilation is good, putting them in the bottom of a stuffy heavy oak chest is bad.

TheNewMexicanGeneral wrote:Tronzor could i reccomend picking up some two part miliput. Its usualy pretty cheap and if you just fill the bottom of the model with it it will add a nice bit of wieght. Albiet no where near that of a pewter model but deffinatly enough to make it more solid.

Fortunately I have been ebaying and trading for a lot of the stuff I like, so I have a great collection of metals, including my IG army that is coming together. I had thought of doing that with Green Stuff, which I think is very similar to millput (I've never used the latter). The cost of doing this could get quite expensive. I'm toying with the idea of just creating scenic bases with actual stones on them for the weight. Might give the millput/GS option a try too.

Thanks!

I know this is vastly off-topic but I still can't believe what Hasbro has done to D&D. A toy company producing D&D! Its madness. And those miniatures are just a slap in the face to any gamer who has actually put a brush to a model.

I had to get that out of my system

For those that have not seen the blight, this is what lead rot looks like when father nurgle casts his eye over your collection.

Goodnight sweet prince, and may flights of beholders sing thee to thyne sleep.

Whoa.

Your poor minis...

Tronzor Its vastly cheaper than gs for example i bought a 4 oz brick for 9.99 whereas for the same price you only get 20 grams of GS and the miliput is great stuff to work with. SOrry to go so far OT like that. But I do believe metal minis while nice are over all harder to work with and wiegh a ton. My father has a all metal SM army including tanks and its a massive even trying to carry them any where lol.

I recognize that damage. That's definitely furniture stripper. That would have done it to any metal, not just lead. It's actually a strong base, not an acid. You'll get the same effect if you leave models in oven cleaner for a few weeks.

Rented Tritium - you referring to my picture? That figure has never been painted or stripped.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Rented Tritium - you referring to my picture? That figure has never been painted or stripped.

And I never indicated it was

Just that it's chemically the same as damage from stripping badly. It has been exposed to the fumes of furniture strippers and conditioners.

I LOVE METAL. Yeah, pinning sucks, but w/e.

These days I typically avoid metal. I've been mini painting for 15 years. I almost always repose, re sculpt, and kitbash any piece I do beyond troops, and metal is just too hard to work with; sawing, pinning, reposing, it's just a pain working with metal. And when it comes to detailed pieces finecast seems to hold it's shape better. I also tend to paint to a high level of detail, lots of highlighting, osl, etc., and prefer a very thin varnish seal applied by airbrush. I HATE losing detail due to varnishing and in my experience metal just requires more for adequate protection.

And MAN I don't miss the flash, I got a few orks back in the day where I literally couldn't tell where the flash ended and the mini began.

I admit I like the heft of my older metal figs, but that is literally the only benefit I see in metal.

That isn't to say I dislike metal. I like my metal pieces, and I still buy them on occasion, but overall I think they have been surpassed in almost every way.

Always liked a metal mini, never had a problem converting them and always thought the effort was well worth the work.

Paper clips, ftw. woot!

I do like the feel of a metal mini though. If I had it my way the new stuff would be in metal too but I can live with plastics, metals are becoming too costly these days. On my plastic stuff I go as far as throwing a steel washer on the base to add a little anchor/weight to the piece.

Nowoo, words cannot describe how impressed I am with that Necron. Very good work.

Metal:
-Feels good, nice heft to it without having to add to it.
- Super strong when pinned.
-Easier to take a part than plastic.
- More expensive material for the money.
-Characterful models from the past not cookie-cutter.

Plastic:
-Easy to cut or shave.
-Glues together far better than metal.
-Sharper lines but undercuts are not as good.
-More plentiful accessories.
-Not really seeing it being any cheaper...

They really are just two ways of doing the same thing.

Talizvar and others pretty well sum up the pros and cons of metals and plastics.

When I was building an IG army, I loved plastics and their convertability. Now that I'm doing the non-GW thing, I love the great ranges of metal models and thier unique sculpts and poses that you don't get from plastics without lots of converting.

As to the OP, I've not heard alot of Metal hate, but what there is seems to come from either GW fanboys, or simply folks who are more recent to the hobby and aren't as familar with metal.

People simply tend to be negative toward what they don't understand or are not familiar with.

A lot of 40k players like metal models. Some just like the better detail on Finecast.

Beats me.

When I started, most of the wargaming stuff was metal.
If you wanted to covert anything, you LEARNED the skills required in order to do so. End result, is that to us metalheads, converting metal is no more difficult than converting plastic.

For those who did not grow up with metals and then transition to plastic (or those who just started in plastics), they don't have the skillset or tools required to work the metals (and in many cases, are also unwilling to learn them) because plastic is soooo much easier.

Just because something is easy does not make it better.
Just because something is hard-to-do does not make it worse - but the satisfaction we get from pulling off a conversion from a metal model will often be greater than the feeling from doing the same to a plastic one.

I do anyway. I find it much more satisfying to have to work at something to get a result, than just slap bits together and spooge superglue over them.

Elitist, thank you very much.

The detail is not better on finecast, it is the same just a lighter and easier to work with material.

I still prefer metal, though I started with plastic than transitioned over to it, the weight of it just seems to make it more worth it. Though there are some models which should never have had metal in them such as the fire prism and the zoanthrope.

I find them heavy, hard to convert, annoying to put together and generally railroaded to a single pose.

chromedog wrote:
Just because something is easy does not make it better.
Just because something is hard-to-do does not make it worse - but the satisfaction we get from pulling off a conversion from a metal model will often be greater than the feeling from doing the same to a plastic one.

That's like saying using a stove is not better than making fire out of two sticks because easy =/= better.

It's elitist to think like that.

Assembly for metal has always been much more difficult for me compared to plastic. Plastic I can just shut my brain off, have fun with any variation or combination, and produce a whole army in a few hours. Extra bits are easy to put on at any time I like. Metal is a pain and you gotta work with what you get. They fall apart on me extremely easily and sometimes it takes hours upon for me to get 1 metal model sturdy enough to attach the next part to. My Fiend of Slaanesh took 3 days to assemble, mostly because the tail was such a bitch. Plus the glue I use for metal crusts on my finger in a far more annoying fashion.

Basically, plastic all the way. Screw nostalgia.

first i couldn't stand the metal mini's for the hardness to convert and the painting is a lot harder on metal IMO so I thought a miracle had happend when finecast came out.. now I would love to see the metal come back.. I'm happy to have bought enough metal minis for a while to paint so I don't have any highpressure need to buy more finecrap..

I wouldn't want an entire metal amry.. weight, converting, glueing,painting.. i prefer plastic over metal for the core army.. I said plastic, not resin

Frankly, I dislike the metal minis over plastic for the following reasons: 1) I've put incredibly heavy varnish on them & certain spots are still prone to chipping (Pedro Kantor, I'm looking at the fingers on your power fist); 2) certain ones have been a royal pain to assemble; 3) they don't lend themselves to converting near as easy as plastic; 4) they cost more than plastic models most of the time.

I am fairly fond of metal models. I find if they are designed properly, they keep their value much better. If there's faddly bits, this goes right out the window, even then, the models have a nice heft to them. I agree that they are much much harder to convert than plastics, but, thats also why i like them; they keep their value and maintain their original condition better than plastics (re-sale value. Im always elated to find metal models because I find they strip easier)

Plastics are great for conversion, have oodles of parts, and the ease of access to parts means you won't be upset if something goes awry as readily as if something bad had happened to metal.

Initially I hated metals with a seething passion, the only time that passion kicks in is when the designer was an incompetent numpty, knocked a few beers back, and decided to make a terribly imbalanced model in metal (I am glaring at you with a seething hatred chaos raptors and flying night lords. seething hatred). I hate finecast more than metals and plastics combined though, I hate the cheap quasi-plastic arguments they give because I feel cheated that they don't give me the chance to actually customise the model, which is what I see the biggest advantage to plastic.

starsdawn wrote:
That's like saying using a stove is not better than making fire out of two sticks because easy =/= better.

It's elitist to think like that.

Did you even bother to read my post?

The satisfaction derived from doing something is proportional to the amount of time and effort put into it. A plastic conversion is easy and yields minor satisfaction.
A metal conversion, because it takes more effort, will yield vastly more satisfaction, simply because.

Besides, Elitism is everywhere. Get used to it or get over yourself.

The only thing I like about metal minis is that when you are tired of the paint job you can drop it in laquer thinner, scrub with a tooth brush and prime and paint it again. It is nice when you have a SoB army to only have to glue on the back packs, but the pentinent engine is a beast to assemble, would love a plastic kit. Wish my seraphim and raptors were plastic, tired of them falling over from a gentle nudge on the table. My Blood Knights are a pain. Spent about 8 hours painting my own lord on horseback, put it on the table for the first time to have my opponent accidently knock the lance arm off. My cold one knights don't have that problem. Some models are great in metal, others in plastic. I glue 1" washers under my fanatics and scourges to give them a little weight and keep them from tipping. The bigger models are best in plastic where as alot of the smaller are better in metal, my opinion.

chromedog wrote:
Did you even bother to read my post?

As a matter of fact I did.

When I started, most of the wargaming stuff was metal.
If you wanted to covert anything, you LEARNED the skills required in order to do so. End result, is that to us metalheads, converting metal is no more difficult than converting plastic.

For those who did not grow up with metals and then transition to plastic (or those who just started in plastics), they don't have the skillset or tools required to work the metals (and in many cases, are also unwilling to learn them) because plastic is soooo much easier.

Sounds elitist to me.

Besides, Elitism is everywhere. Get used to it or get over yourself.

Well, people don't like elitists. Get used to it or get over yourself. You're not better than anybody.

Really confuses me why people don't like it when they're being looked down upon. "Ooooh i've been in this hobby before plastics were out I'm better than you!" Oh yes compared to you we are the least of all gamers, all hail metal lord!

chromedog wrote:Beats me.

When I started, most of the wargaming stuff was metal.
If you wanted to covert anything, you LEARNED the skills required in order to do so. End result, is that to us metalheads, converting metal is no more difficult than converting plastic.

For those who did not grow up with metals and then transition to plastic (or those who just started in plastics), they don't have the skillset or tools required to work the metals (and in many cases, are also unwilling to learn them) because plastic is soooo much easier.

Just because something is easy does not make it better.
Just because something is hard-to-do does not make it worse - but the satisfaction we get from pulling off a conversion from a metal model will often be greater than the feeling from doing the same to a plastic one.

I do anyway. I find it much more satisfying to have to work at something to get a result, than just slap bits together and spooge superglue over them.

Elitist, thank you very much.

There's a whole lot you're glossing over and downright missing. There's really no comparison to the plastic conversions you see these days to metal ones from back in the day. The process is easier which has in turn pushed the enevlope on how elaborate the conversions are now. It's not uncommon to see a model that owes parts to a half dozen donors put together in an interesting and unique fashion. Not something you'd normally see if you had to hack the metal pieces off different miniatures (not to mention the cost factor of doing so) . Plastics haven't necessarily negated the time, effort and work of converting with metal, in many cases it simply allows that same time and effort to generate more interesting results.

Overall i like plastic the best.
It's lighter, easier to assemble, doest give you bended parts like the old metal products
(example: the good 'ol chaos halberds are a disaster to get straight as you order them they are bended as what cos they are in a bag!)

Drop a plastic model and you got nothin' drop a metal model and your lucky to have it in a least 3-4 pieces, try a thirster or obli for fun

A sister of battle being one solid chunk of metal is quite nice. I can just throw it about and know it won’t break.
It also means I can strip all the paint off with Nail-polish remover very quickly should I screw up a paintjob.

The main problem I have is with the gluing. Super glue doesn't do much, neither does metal glue. Pinning also cannot be done on some models due to the small size (See Dark Elf executioner blade).

Overall I think I prefer plastic due to the ease of customisation plus the way the paint chips less on very sharp corners, 'ardcoat does address this a bit I guess.
Finecast would be the perfect answer if it didn't come with all that extra plastic fluff stuff from the moulding process.

I mentioned it briefly before, but it bears making the point that metal sculpts offer a range of pose differentiation that is just not possible in multipart plastic unless you do some serious converting/sculpting.

The sculptor of a metal (or resin) model can take into account the way muscle and fabric flexes and stretches when a torso twists and the way the leg position will change to adjust for the distribution if body weight. On a plastic model, you just twist the torso and that results in none of the anatomical reality that a sculpted model produces. Not so noticible on a space marine, but very noticible on a guardsman.

Plastic has lots of variation within certain parameters, but there are alot of poses such as crouching, hunching, etc that are just better done in metal.

I also really like the ease of paint stripping and resaleability of metal. Though it must be said that I have nothing in particular against plastic models and own many.

well metal miniatures are expensive, i saw a necron lord that was metal (then again what necron lord isn't metal?) and not only was it hard to put together it was expensive all hell, like $25.
i would understand if it was like $17 but when it's 25 i would rather just build up my army more than have an HQ.
but on the upside metal miniatures have the weight to them so they may not fall over easily so i, or anyone else don't have to glue a penny t the bottom of the base just for it to not go flying off the board when you bump it be accident.

swordman600 wrote:well metal miniatures are expensive

Finecast are more. But the price of plastics has been brought up to meet metal, because the quality was similar so people are happy to pay, was the reasoning.

Even with that price, an army needs at least one HQ slot to be filled up so ditch those immortals and get yourself an imotek!

I like metal far more than finecast, the models just feel right as opposed to light :3

it also helps that I can beat people with my exorcist if the game doesnt go my way

I like finecast over metal.... as long as it's a good cast. I heavily convert stuff so it's a blessing for me to have them easy to cut.

Guardlard01 wrote:Nowoo, words cannot describe how impressed I am with that Necron. Very good work.

Thanks!

He was a lot more fun putting together than the 12 Wraiths that followed!

I've been around the hobby since the tail end of 40k 2nd Edition and I have a pronounced preference for plastic models.

- Easy to clean up for assembly.
- Easy assembly and gluing.
- Easy to carve up for conversions (no power tools necessary).
- Drilling plastic to pin fragile joints/connections or to magnetize is much easier than with metal.
- The lightweight nature of plastic fascilitates weapon swapping via magnets far better than metal.
- More dynamic poses possible with plastic kits (remember the bullwinkle farseer?).
- Crazy things like LED eyes or headlights are prohibitively difficult in metal.
- The "lacks detail" argument no longer holds water with the new kits. Undercuts equalling better detail is mitigated by the newer 3D sculpting and sprue design process being used at GW.
- The lightweight "boardgame token" feel to plastic models can easily be remedied by gluing a nickle in the base. This also has the advantage of making the model bottom heavy so it stays on slopes better.
- Lightweight means lighter load to carry around that convention hall.
- Less powerful (cheaper) magnets can be used to magnetize your WHFB figures to their movement tray.

I could go on for an hour with this list but I expect you get the gist.

I hated metal because I have painted some (dwarf slayer lord) in metal and it took me 2 hours to paint. It looked great, but the paint would always chip at edges (used it more than normal as was my character in a Warhammer RPG 2nd ed). I have never had the same problem with plastic.

On a side note my venerable dread was a bitch to glue, absolutely miserable. It has never chipped on paint once though. So its give and take on the painting issue.

At first I wanted everything metal but now I much prefer plastic to metal. Not sold on finecast yet but I am still debating on my opinion on those.

I admit the plastic models being easier to convert is a very good point, but the metal is more durable. I once left my Imperial Guard army in the car. In a black car, in the summer. In the window of the car and in a clear Plano tackle box tray.
Every plastic base melted and twisted into lumps, but the metal minis were fine and I just glued on new bases.
And I agree there is a certain satisfaction to the heft and feel of a good metal model.

I'm going to beat you with my dreadnought
I mean beat you. With. My dreadnought.

Brotherjulian wrote:
And I agree there is a certain satisfaction to the heft and feel of a good metal model.

I'm going to beat you with my dreadnought
I mean beat you. With. My dreadnought.

Yes. Over and over, yes.

That's the 1 major thing that really appeals to me, is that it actually feels like your holding something, ya know? It doesn't feel like you're gonna break it if you hold it the wrong way.

Breotan wrote:
- The lightweight "boardgame token" feel to plastic models can easily be remedied by gluing a nickle in the base. This also has the advantage of making the model bottom heavy so it stays on slopes better.

Even if i'm 'all plastic ftw' i agree with that one!

Small armies/elite armies I prefer metal or resin, since the army is small, you have less chance of many copies of the same model on the table.

Large armies, Plastic all the way, the GW plastic kits tend to have enough opportunity to pose the models in ways that make them more unique, and a large army in plastic won't rip your arm out of the socket when you try and carry it around for a few hours.

I know a ton of people had problems with this model in metal:



Now, of course, it's finecast. I hate metal models as they are incredibly difficult to work with...

I really liked metal figures in the past, but switched to plastic after the 5th ed IG codex. The sheer amount of IG troops you almost need to convert to get a lot of the options in the codex makes metal a real hindrance.

Breotan wrote:
- The lightweight "boardgame token" feel to plastic models can easily be remedied by gluing a nickle in the base. This also has the advantage of making the model bottom heavy so it stays on slopes better.

That...is...genius!!!

In all fairness, I would have every single mini in my armies as metal as I hate resin as a modelling medium! I come from the good 'ol days on 1st/2nd ed days! Metal models are harder to convert but this in turn did show real skill. The changes from metal has also brought adapting models to a lower level of skill meaning that more people can do it - which is good!

I love the forming of metal models as they did not have that many problems and certainly a huge amount less than resin models! The weight of metal models is more pleasing than that of plastic and resin models. Dropping metal models has always been highly annoying and things bend - but with the catastrophie of 'fine'cast, at least with metal you got a STRAIGHT swords etc!

Gluing metal also has always been a problem with larger models but since then I have found an industrial strength superglue used in the building trade which has meant that I do not need to pin anything!

Now I am scouring eBay for practically any metal model as I think that it is incredibly sad that they decided to stop using such a good material.

I've always preferred plastic over metal. With the current molding technologies like slide molds, it's possible to make almost anything in plastic which will surpass white metal. Just look at all of the current plastic kits which are made by Games Workshop now. They're plastic kits are far better then where they were many years ago. They're a lot more detailed, and sharper (literally) then anything which could be made out of metal.

One thing I absolutely cannot agree with is the people arguing that metal is somehow better BECAUSE it is harder to work with, that the extra effort put into converting it makes it more fulfilling. This is just erroneous thinking, and the silliest kind of elitism, "it's better because it's worse!".

People can still (and often do) put the same amount of time and care into converting their models, they just have something much more impressive when they are done. Plastic and resin is the reason there are conversions today which are so much more impressive than anything we had 15 years ago. Are you trying to argue people are somehow less proud of the time they put into these conversions? I would argue they are MORE proud, because their works is much more apparent and dramatic, they get more praise, and they have been able to customize more of their army.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with enjoying the challenge of working with a harder material. For example, coding in assembly language can certainly be stimulating and enjoyable. But that doesn't make it SUPERIOR. and people who argue it does (and there are programmers who do) just come off as misguided, stuck in their ways, and overly nostalgic.

Metal has some superior points, as have been brought up, but arguing that being inferior at things is a strength is just silly.


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Eilif wrote:I mentioned it briefly before, but it bears making the point that metal sculpts offer a range of pose differentiation that is just not possible in multipart plastic unless you do some serious converting/sculpting.

The sculptor of a metal (or resin) model can take into account the way muscle and fabric flexes and stretches when a torso twists and the way the leg position will change to adjust for the distribution if body weight. On a plastic model, you just twist the torso and that results in none of the anatomical reality that a sculpted model produces. Not so noticible on a space marine, but very noticible on a guardsman.

Plastic has lots of variation within certain parameters, but there are alot of poses such as crouching, hunching, etc that are just better done in metal.

I also have issues with this argument, it just isn't true. Plastic can be formed into almost any shape these days. Many of the kits available don't positions like crouching and such in order to give the buyer more posing options. It is a pragmatic decision, not a limitation of the medium.

A freaking hobby knife can go through pewter with minimal effort. I don't understand the complaints here, though I'm fairly handy with green stuff. It's really just a preference thing at the end of the day, and nobody is "right"

Edit: For the record, I love metal. Plastic models almost always seem to have horrible mold lines in my experience and I hate spending all that time cleaning. Resin... ugh. Just no. Tried it, did not like it, will try again at some point but not anytime soon.

riplikash wrote:One thing I absolutely cannot agree with is the people arguing that metal is somehow better BECAUSE it is harder to work with, that the extra effort put into converting it makes it more fulfilling. This is just erroneous thinking, and the silliest kind of elitism, "it's better because it's worse!".

People can still (and often do) put the same amount of time and care into converting their models, they just have something much more impressive when they are done. Plastic and resin is the reason there are conversions today which are so much more impressive than anything we had 15 years ago. Are you trying to argue people are somehow less proud of the time they put into these conversions? I would argue they are MORE proud, because their works is much more apparent and dramatic, they get more praise, and they have been able to customize more of their army.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with enjoying the challenge of working with a harder material. For example, coding in assembly language can certainly be stimulating and enjoyable. But that doesn't make it SUPERIOR. and people who argue it does (and there are programmers who do) just come off as misguided, stuck in their ways, and overly nostalgic.

Metal has some superior points, as have been brought up, but arguing that being inferior at things is a strength is just silly.


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Eilif wrote:I mentioned it briefly before, but it bears making the point that metal sculpts offer a range of pose differentiation that is just not possible in multipart plastic unless you do some serious converting/sculpting.

The sculptor of a metal (or resin) model can take into account the way muscle and fabric flexes and stretches when a torso twists and the way the leg position will change to adjust for the distribution if body weight. On a plastic model, you just twist the torso and that results in none of the anatomical reality that a sculpted model produces. Not so noticible on a space marine, but very noticible on a guardsman.

Plastic has lots of variation within certain parameters, but there are alot of poses such as crouching, hunching, etc that are just better done in metal.

I also have issues with this argument, it just isn't true. Plastic can be formed into almost any shape these days. Many of the kits available don't positions like crouching and such in order to give the buyer more posing options. It is a pragmatic decision, not a limitation of the medium.

This pretty much sums it up.

Well, I believe "old medium" elitism happens every time a new, (usually) better medium is introduced. Like how old time photographers would moan that digital photography is inferior to film, or traditional painters would argue that painting with actual paints trumps digital painting and digital painters are less skilled compared to them. There was also a time when oil painters would argue oil is better than acrylic. There were even writers who would say that typing with a typewriter is so much better than using a program.

My theory is that we humans cling to what we know, and it is a blow to our ego that the skills we earned are now obsolete and we would like to feel that they're still relevant somehow.

orkork wrote:I've always preferred plastic over metal. With the current molding technologies like slide molds, it's possible to make almost anything in plastic which will surpass white metal. Just look at all of the current plastic kits which are made by Games Workshop now. They're plastic kits are far better then where they were many years ago. They're a lot more detailed, and sharper (literally) then anything which could be made out of metal.

Isn't white metal poisonous? I swear it contains lead...

starsdawn wrote:Well, I believe "old medium" elitism happens every time a new, (usually) better medium is introduced. Like how old time photographers would moan that digital photography is inferior to film, or traditional painters would argue that painting with actual paints trumps digital painting and digital painters are less skilled compared to them. There was also a time when oil painters would argue oil is better than acrylic. There were even writers who would say that typing with a typewriter is so much better than using a program.

My theory is that we humans cling to what we know, and it is a blow to our ego that the skills we earned are now obsolete and we would like to feel that they're still relevant somehow.

That would be a fine theory, except I first started toying with the hobby in 2006 and didn't like plastic as much as metal just from messing around. By the time I got a few resin models I asked for help on how to work with them, looked stuff up, but at the end of the day they were just annoying and I felt like it was going to shatter. I've never had trouble converting metal so I fail to see how it's more or less a given that it's inferior.

In 20 years, will there be more surviving resin or metal models?

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:A freaking hobby knife can go through pewter with minimal effort. I don't understand the complaints here, though I'm fairly handy with green stuff. It's really just a preference thing at the end of the day, and nobody is "right"

Edit: For the record, I love metal. Plastic models almost always seem to have horrible mold lines in my experience and I hate spending all that time cleaning. Resin... ugh. Just no. Tried it, did not like it, will try again at some point but not anytime soon.

Just...no. No a hobby knife cant. Maybe little bits of flash, but you can't carve down a face or a symbol, you certainly can't just cut a figure through the torso.

And metal models have the same mold lines as plastic, plus a lot of flash on top.

While no ones preference is wrong, many of the arguments FOR the preference is wrong. People don't just want to have a preference, they want their preference to be 'right', and they come up with some pretty counter intuitive arguments to prove it, like the fact that since it is harder to work with t is better, or that a hobby knife can go through pewter with 'minimal' effort. That I take issue with.

riplikash wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:A freaking hobby knife can go through pewter with minimal effort. I don't understand the complaints here, though I'm fairly handy with green stuff. It's really just a preference thing at the end of the day, and nobody is "right"

Edit: For the record, I love metal. Plastic models almost always seem to have horrible mold lines in my experience and I hate spending all that time cleaning. Resin... ugh. Just no. Tried it, did not like it, will try again at some point but not anytime soon.

Just...no. No a hobby knife cant. Maybe little bits of flash, but you can't carve down a face or a symbol, you certainly can't just cut a figure through the torso.

And metal models have the same mold lines as plastic, plus a lot of flash on top.

While no ones preference is wrong, many of the arguments FOR the preference is wrong. People don't just want to have a preference, they want their preference to be 'right', and they come up with some pretty counter intuitive arguments to prove it, like the fact that since it is harder to work with t is better, or that a hobby knife can go through pewter with 'minimal' effort. That I take issue with.

...I can make a youtube video if you like. Seriously, it's not that hard Hell, a pair of pliers could take one apart.

In my experience, mold lines/flash are much less an issue than on plastic kits. The last several GW kits and figures I bought, the mold lines on the plastic have been atrocious, even to the point where both halves of the model are offset and I've needed replacements. People are okay to disagree, but as an example, the Anima Tactics model line has some amazing metals that need no filing whatsoever.

And my argument isn't wrong, more like objectively provable. Stop taking issue that people having differing views and light up a joint/have a drink/put on some relaxing music/just breathe (your call)

I personally prefer non metal models for fantasy and 40k.

Reasons being:
Have you ever built a hellcannon if so you know how much green stuff goes into that.

Khorne lord on jugger has more pins in him than I have finger (I have not lost any fingers yet).

The models that used to come in metal were really cool looking so converting them to make something even better looking would be a ton of work.

Super glue could leak out of the joints to make a mess.

Reasons I like metal:
If you need to defend yourself all you need is a hellcannon, empire steam tank or old metal giant and a sock and you have protection.

Moving metal models feels cool.

I will not refuse to build metal models but certain things would be nice to have in plastic.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

starsdawn wrote:Well, I believe "old medium" elitism happens every time a new, (usually) better medium is introduced. Like how old time photographers would moan that digital photography is inferior to film, or traditional painters would argue that painting with actual paints trumps digital painting and digital painters are less skilled compared to them. There was also a time when oil painters would argue oil is better than acrylic. There were even writers who would say that typing with a typewriter is so much better than using a program.

My theory is that we humans cling to what we know, and it is a blow to our ego that the skills we earned are now obsolete and we would like to feel that they're still relevant somehow.

That would be a fine theory, except I first started toying with the hobby in 2006 and didn't like plastic as much as metal just from messing around. By the time I got a few resin models I asked for help on how to work with them, looked stuff up, but at the end of the day they were just annoying and I felt like it was going to shatter. I've never had trouble converting metal so I fail to see how it's more or less a given that it's inferior.

In 20 years, will there be more surviving resin or metal models?

My take on the matter:

Metal is not inferior in terms of miniature medium, it has its own strengths. But in terms of converting and customization it is inferior since, let's face it, people would find it harder to do. You can barely change a metal miniature's pose without having greenstuff (something that can easily be done with plastic). Pinning is a pain in the posterior area. That's why people, especially those like me who like to convert stuff heavily, would prefer plastic and resin. It's not the durability that's the issue.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
That would be a fine theory, except I first started toying with the hobby in 2006 and didn't like plastic as much as metal just from messing around. By the time I got a few resin models I asked for help on how to work with them, looked stuff up, but at the end of the day they were just annoying and I felt like it was going to shatter. I've never had trouble converting metal so I fail to see how it's more or less a given that it's inferior.

In 20 years, will there be more surviving resin or metal models?

Your preference is fine, but if you have really never had any trouble converting metal I can only think that you don't do very elaborate conversions. The ease of converting plastic is one thing that really isn't up for debate. Almost every form of conversion is significantly harder when working with metal: drilling, sawing, chopping, shaving. On top of that multi-part plastic kits give you many more pieces for converting and more pose-ability, though the poses are rarely as dynamic and fluid for the same reason that action figures are never as fluid and dynamic as sculptures.

When all is said and done, metal isn't 'inferior', it is just a different material with it's own strengths and weaknesses. Plastic has more strengths then metal, but that doesn't make it better. What matters is how much you VALUE those strengths. If durability and weight are very important to you and ease of converting, pose-ability, ease of painting, extra bits, less chipping, sharper features, easier assembly, and overall more options, then metal is a better choice. And that is perfectly valid, despite the fact I listed more strengths for plastic. Not everyone wants or needs lots of converting and poses, or cares using super thin varnish layers, but they DO care about the feel and durability. 2x100 (two strengths you value greatly) can outnumber 10x2 (ten strengths you don't care that much about).

Again, the problem is people are trying so hard to argue the strengths of plastic aren't actually strengths, and the weaknesses of metal aren't actually weaknesses. Metal is inferior to work with, that is all there is too it. But it is longer lasting and heavier.

As for what there will be more of in 20 years? I could guess metal, obviously it stands up to more abuse. But that doesn't really matter. If you take care of them I imagine both will outlive you.


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Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:
...I can make a youtube video if you like. Seriously, it's not that hard Hell, a pair of pliers could take one apart.

In my experience, mold lines/flash are much less an issue than on plastic kits. The last several GW kits and figures I bought, the mold lines on the plastic have been atrocious, even to the point where both halves of the model are offset and I've needed replacements. People are okay to disagree, but as an example, the Anima Tactics model line has some amazing metals that need no filing whatsoever.

And my argument isn't wrong, more like objectively provable. Stop taking issue that people having differing views and light up a joint/have a drink/put on some relaxing music/just breathe (your call)

It isn't impossible, obviously, but it is an order of magnitude harder is what I'm saying. Converting metal is just harder, cutting metal is harder, and I would very much be interested in seeing a video of you cutting a marine in half cleanly with a hobby knife in any reasonable amount of time.

As for mold lines I could certainly see both ways, it's more of a personal experience thing. I've certainly had that experience with plastics, but I've had it with metals too. I would argue one isn't really worse than the other, but again, that is a personal experience sort of thing.

As for being mad...that is ever the last resort for people being called out on talking out their rear. I calmly pointed out that you cannot reasonably argue that metal is as easy to work with as plastic. That doesn't make plastic better, but it is the reality of the medium. In none of my posts have I said someone was wrong for choosing metal, or disagreed with their preference.

But people get emotionally attached to their choices and start needing it to be the right choice, so they start inventing reasons it is superior. That I have been attempting to discourage.

I think you're talking objectively about that which is subjective. Plastic does not have more pros than metal as a rule. The number of pros it has is just as subjective as anything else, depending on how much you want to analyze each material (which you're doing heavily for plastic). I've done some fairly elaborate conversions, thanks much. Stop projecting other people's faults onto what I'm saying and generalizing. Because clearly, many people who praise new mediums believe all advancements are automatically good and are simply afraid to question the methods of "the past," those old codgers! It's a given, but they also like to have relations while wearing school girl's knickers

Wish I had some better pictures:


Anyway, I'm done here. Quit implying things are better and generalizing about people.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

riplikash wrote:

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:A freaking hobby knife can go through pewter with minimal effort. I don't understand the complaints here, though I'm fairly handy with green stuff. It's really just a preference thing at the end of the day, and nobody is "right"

Edit: For the record, I love metal. Plastic models almost always seem to have horrible mold lines in my experience and I hate spending all that time cleaning. Resin... ugh. Just no. Tried it, did not like it, will try again at some point but not anytime soon.

Just...no. No a hobby knife cant. Maybe little bits of flash, but you can't carve down a face or a symbol, you certainly can't just cut a figure through the torso.

And metal models have the same mold lines as plastic, plus a lot of flash on top.

While no ones preference is wrong, many of the arguments FOR the preference is wrong. People don't just want to have a preference, they want their preference to be 'right', and they come up with some pretty counter intuitive arguments to prove it, like the fact that since it is harder to work with t is better, or that a hobby knife can go through pewter with 'minimal' effort. That I take issue with.

...I can make a youtube video if you like. Seriously, it's not that hard Hell, a pair of pliers could take one apart.

In my experience, mold lines/flash are much less an issue than on plastic kits. The last several GW kits and figures I bought, the mold lines on the plastic have been atrocious, even to the point where both halves of the model are offset and I've needed replacements. People are okay to disagree, but as an example, the Anima Tactics model line has some amazing metals that need no filing whatsoever.

And my argument isn't wrong, more like objectively provable. Stop taking issue that people having differing views and light up a joint/have a drink/put on some relaxing music/just breathe (your call)

Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans on cutting through metal being as easy as cutting through plastic. The compositions of the materials make this an absolute falsehood.

riplikash wrote:

Eilif wrote:I mentioned it briefly before, but it bears making the point that metal sculpts offer a range of pose differentiation that is just not possible in multipart plastic unless you do some serious converting/sculpting.

The sculptor of a metal (or resin) model can take into account the way muscle and fabric flexes and stretches when a torso twists and the way the leg position will change to adjust for the distribution if body weight. On a plastic model, you just twist the torso and that results in none of the anatomical reality that a sculpted model produces. Not so noticible on a space marine, but very noticible on a guardsman.

Plastic has lots of variation within certain parameters, but there are alot of poses such as crouching, hunching, etc that are just better done in metal.

I also have issues with this argument, it just isn't true. Plastic can be formed into almost any shape these days. Many of the kits available don't positions like crouching and such in order to give the buyer more posing options. It is a pragmatic decision, not a limitation of the medium.

I did specify "multipart plastic" at the beginning for a reason. That is because in order to make "multipart-multipose plastic kits" the designers have to resort to more generic poses and eschew the more subtle and anatomically correct poses that only come when the model is sculpted as a single concept design.

Of course with current technology plastics can have nearly the same sculpts as metal. In light of the market, however that is a moot point. They won't be, because if they were molded completely into uniquely sculpted poses, you'd lose the multipart convertability which is the main reason that people are willing to pay more than the price of a metal model for GW plastic kits. Folks would look at a monopose plastic mini (no matter how well sculpted) and say "why didn't they just make it in metal or resin". No one wants monopose plastic models (at least not at GW prices) which is why you nearly only see them in starter sets and from mantic.

This is why if, in todays market, you want the kind of sculpts that I was describing you have to buy metal or resin figs.

heartserenade wrote:
Metal is not inferior in terms of miniature medium, it has its own strengths. But in terms of converting and customization it is inferior since, let's face it, people would find it harder to do.

This is a very fair statement. I'm really not holding up Metal as the overall superior product, just that it does have a few very recommendable qualities.

For me it comes down to what I am looking for for a given project. Do I want the unique poses, style and resaleability of metal, or the ease of posability, assembly and convertability of plastic. The answer may be completely different depending on the project at hand.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I think you're talking objectively about that which is subjective.

He was talking about how easier it is to convert plastic over metal. That's not subjective. What's also not subjective is that plastic is easier to cut than metal. If you're not getting that, well, I can make jabs about your reading comprehension skills (oh look, he supports what you said that metal has its strengths and having a subjective preference is okay!) but it doesn't get us far now, does it?

I've done some fairly elaborate conversions, thanks much.

You do know that people can't judge how elaborate your conversion is with a) a crappy photo and b) no photo of the original uncoverted model. Can't even tell if that's supposed to be a dragon or a duck or a dragonduck.

Stop projecting other people's faults onto what I'm saying and generalizing. Because clearly, many people who praise new mediums believe all advancements are automatically good and are simply afraid to question the methods of "the past," those old codgers! It's a given, but they also like to have relations while wearing school girl's knickers

Ooooh, so stop generalizing people because only you can generalize people? Pot calling the kettle metal?



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Lord Skulk wrote:

Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans on cutting through metal being as easy as cutting through plastic. The compositions of the materials make this an absolute falsehood.

He's using power cutters. They're like power weapons, only cutters.

I converted a Mephiston recently and have to say that was a nightmare as he's cast in one piece, body, cloak, shoulderpads and head.

This is him when done.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/howardtreesong/Inquisitor02.jpg

I had to saw through the shoulderpads and right through the stuff on his head... that was a lot of work for something I'm only moderately happy with (he didn't make it to my gallery anyway).

Generally though, I find metal miniatures just take a bit more time. The longest job is cleaning up mould lines and I find that because plastic kits are usually more multi-part, you have a lot more lines to clean up, so the time saving isn't really there even with the softer material.

Breotan wrote:
- The lightweight "boardgame token" feel to plastic models can easily be remedied by gluing a nickle in the base. This also has the advantage of making the model bottom heavy so it stays on slopes better.

And simultaneously doubles the resale value.



At least with a metal model, you can believe they have cast it from some obscure and valuable precious metal to justify the price you paid for it.

Not so with Finecast. It's lighter than plastic, and warps in Aussie springtime sunlight.

For large models make mine plastic. For Gods's sake, please. I hate pinning with a passion I usually reserve for coffee and employees of the Civil Service. Chunky, heavy, fall to bits at the drop of a hat. The recent Dark Elf Black Dragon is the way forwards in terms of large scale models all right.

For infantry models though, I must say I personally prefer metal. Of course, if you're a conversion nut, plastic is the clear choice here, but as a painter, I really do prefer the clean lines and poses that come in a good metal model.

A problem I have with many of the plastic kits is that you put the pose any way you want, this can too often be an unrealistic or slightly quirky pose. Metal models are by nature going to be set in certain pose, and I like those beautifully crafted models that were sculpted in *this* particular pose by the sculptor, and then you as a painter pick up the torch and finish the model off, they often have much more character in the deliberate stance of the model, compared to the almost randomly generated pose you get with plastic.

Plastic also deforms rather quickly depending on the glue you use, while metal is far less malleable.

One last thing is the feel in your hand. Plastic models are nice and light and don't break into bits and chip when you drop them, which is why they make good line troops. Metal models always, to me, seem more dependable, there is something comfortable in the weight of a 28mm Character figure to see you through a game.

Different rules for different things I suppose.

I like my HQ:s metal. Normal troopers and vehicles should be kept plastic IMHO.

I dislike metal models. They are cumbersome, hard to covert, and they're made with some lead.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:I think you're talking objectively about that which is subjective. Plastic does not have more pros than metal as a rule. The number of pros it has is just as subjective as anything else, depending on how much you want to analyze each material (which you're doing heavily for plastic). I've done some fairly elaborate conversions, thanks much. Stop projecting other people's faults onto what I'm saying and generalizing. Because clearly, many people who praise new mediums believe all advancements are automatically good and are simply afraid to question the methods of "the past," those old codgers! It's a given, but they also like to have relations while wearing school girl's knickers

Really what I am describing is not subjective at all. It is objectively easier to assemble, cut, chop, reshape, repose, and the paint requires less protection, allowing for a greater variety of colors to show through. Those are some of the objective benefits of plastic.

You are misunderstanding the point of the number of pro's as well. I'm saying that what matters is what, subjectively, is more important to you. I think you are going to have a hard time listing as many pros for metal as plastic, but what I'm saying is that doesn't matter. That doesn't make plastic better. What matters is what you value more, sculptability and paintability, or weight and durability.

In regards to your final statement, again, I never said plastic was superior. I just answered the question, why do so many people prefer plastics, and called people out (like you) for making fallacious arguments like "metal is easy to cut with a hobby knife" (bull crap), and "metal is better because it is harder to work with.

I do agree with the poster above who noted that, due to market influences, plastic is always going to come in multi-part kits and therefore if you want dynamic, organic poses you need to go for metal or resin, not due to any limitations in plastic, but due to market influences.

On a non-confrontational note, I am fairly certain you can come up with more legitimate pro's for plastic than metal, but I would be very interested in someones further analyses. If there are additional benefits to using metal I would very much like to hear them.

starsdawn wrote:
He was talking about how easier it is to convert plastic over metal. That's not subjective. What's also not subjective is that plastic is easier to cut than metal. If you're not getting that, well, I can make jabs about your reading comprehension skills (oh look, he supports what you said that metal has its strengths and having a subjective preference is okay!) but it doesn't get us far now, does it?

I never argued that metal was as easy to cut as plastic, only that his pro/con list was rigged by bias and made to sound as though no other possibility existed.

Ooooh, so stop generalizing people because only you can generalize people? Pot calling the kettle metal?

It's called sarcasm. <insert reading comprehension jab, or recommend you to ever visit OT where you'll learn quickly Cannerus is to be taken with a grain of salt when referring to school girl's knickers> I was doing it to prove a point.

Lord Skulk wrote:

Sorry, but I'm calling shenanigans on cutting through metal being as easy as cutting through plastic. The compositions of the materials make this an absolute falsehood.

Answered above.

Now both of you quit being wrong and worship me already

Edit: That's more sarcasm if you didn't catch. Also, FWIW, I just sliced a metal marine in half with a hobby knife 2 seconds ago so I can transplant a different metal chest piece in it

BlapBlapBlap wrote:I dislike metal models. They are cumbersome, hard to covert, and they're made with some lead.

Not recently. And if you don't like lead don't eat them.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Anyway, I'm done here.

Apparently not.

It's called sarcasm. <insert reading comprehension jab, or recommend you to ever visit OT where you'll learn quickly Cannerus is to be taken with a grain of salt when referring to school girl's knickers> I was doing it to prove a point.

It's called the internet. You know, where tone of voice is not really part of the medium? Really, NOW I can call you a po0, or a kettle, or some other kitchen appliance (oven, maybe?). Don't do reading comprehension job when you need to comprehend better yourself, compadre.

Prove a point of what? That you know how to make sarcastic remarks? How does it support your point? Do you do it just to show how clever you are (clearly undermined by the fact you haven't comprehended the posts quite well)?

Now both of you quit being wrong and worship me already

So if you were being sarcastic does that mean we're *gasp* actually right?

Edit: That's more sarcasm if you didn't catch. Also, FWIW, I just sliced a metal marine in half with a hobby knife 2 seconds ago so I can transplant a different metal chest piece in it

Pics or it didn't happen.

starsdawn wrote:Pics or it didn't happen.

I have them up on my Fetlife account.

Wait, that's not what you meant?

...it's probably best to put me on ignore now

I think you are having some communications problems then.

Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:

I never argued that metal was as easy to cut as plastic, only that his pro/con list was rigged by bias and made to sound as though no other possibility existed.

You argued that cutting metal, and the other things I listed, were subjective, so you were at least trying to say it is possible that it is as easy to cut metal as plastic. The fact that you brought up how easy it is to cut metal with a hobby knife further re-enforced the idea that you were trying to argue it is just as easy to mod metal as plastic. You keep saying that such things are subjective, hence why everyone thinks you are trying to say it is just as easy to cut/convert metal. If you don't feel this way...then there really is no reason to bring up the points you are bringing up.

And again, I don't think you are reading the whole post. How is the pro/con list rigged? I really would like to hear if there are more pro's to metal beyond weight and durabilty so I can make an informed choice. And I've said time and again that just because you can list more pro's for one side doesn't make it better, what matters are what qualities are important to YOU.

It's called sarcasm. <insert reading comprehension jab, or recommend you to ever visit OT where you'll learn quickly Cannerus is to be taken with a grain of salt when referring to school girl's knickers> I was doing it to prove a point.

I don't think anyone has any idea what point you were trying to prove here...or even what the school girl's knickers sentence was supposed to mean. You should probably just avoid sarcasm in debates like this unless you are going to append them with something like </sarcasm>.

Edit: That's more sarcasm if you didn't catch. Also, FWIW, I just sliced a metal marine in half with a hobby knife 2 seconds ago so I can transplant a different metal chest piece in it

Um, wow. I would be very interested in how you did this. I have been working with metal figs for 15 years and typically have to use a good strong hobby saw or dremel cutting tool to get a clean cut through a thick section of pewter. Pushing through with a hobby knife typically takes a long friggin time and deforms the edges, if it can be done at all. When most people talk about a hobby knife they are talking about something like an exacto knife. Are you sure we are talking about the same thing? Because I'm having a hard time accepting that statement as you presented it, as I'm sure are most people who read it.

Who cares about your sexual preferences. They're irrelevant. Stop beating around the non-innuendo-related bush.

Just put proof that you did cut a pewter marine in half using a hobby knife.

But then again it makes sense if your hobby knife is like this:

The best I have is a webcam and I have nothing to prove here. If you're actually interested how I did it, just make some initial hard cuts how you want it to separate, then start rocking it back and forth. Takes ~2 minutes.

Claims are supported by proof. Your clam is not supported by any kind of proof whatsoever, so unless you're an Evangelion (highly unlikely) we have reason to doubt your claim.

It's like saying "yeah strangers on the internet you should believe me I did something that is highly improbable. I have nothing to prove to you but you guys, it's totally true!" Doesn't really fly.

Huh, I've cut through metal minis rather nicely with a hobby knife too, it isn't really that hard. Plastic is easier, true. But metal feels nicer and it's sturdy and smooth and... <3 Metal.

Seriously, if I really want to convert a miniature, it being metal is unlikely to stop me. Usually metal minis are already too gorgeous to cut up though...

Incidentally, when he says he has nothing to prove, he probably means: ' I don't really care whether you believe me or not', rather than... whatever you said.

chromedog wrote:
The satisfaction derived from doing something is proportional to the amount of time and effort put into it. A plastic conversion is easy and yields minor satisfaction.
A metal conversion, because it takes more effort, will yield vastly more satisfaction, simply because.

You are stating your point of view and not making an empirical statement. I take a great deal of pleasure out of my "easy" plastic conversions and I am highly satisfied with my results. That fact that I did not have to use a bench vice, a Dremel tool, 2 part epoxy, a pin vice, and brass rod over a period of hours doesn't seem to phase me in the slightest.

I like metal HQs and plastic troops. I do not care for finecast.. Not good luck with them and bubbles/surface issues.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:I dislike metal models. They are cumbersome, hard to covert, and they're made with some lead.

Not GW models - they've been lead free for ages.

There are still some companies that do use lead-alloys, but they are generally for the historicals crowd where I daresy you will rarely find a 12 year old.
(older players generally speaking, are not at risk of lead poisoning from their figures any more than they are from their houses - where the paint and soldered plumbing joints all contained lead).


@Skalk: Naturally. ALL points of view are subjective. There is no 'right' point of view about it.

Then again, as I have stated, once you have the ability and the tools, converting metal is no more onerous than converting plastic.

The lead issue is a bit more complex than that.

Lead in figures is of very little danger. Even when cut, it's not an issue unless ingested, and even then, it's really fine particles that are the issue.

Reaper has begun to use lead in it's P-63 line again as it is cheaper and easier to recreate very fine details in lead based alloys.

As for housing. Lead paint is found in older houses regardless of who lives there and old people are as exposed to lead as children. The issue with children is that they are developmentally at a stage where they are more suceptible to lead than adults, and they are more likely to eat paint chips, a major source of lead poisoning.

All that said, I'd prefer if companies used lead based alloys to the pewter they use now. Lead based are be cheaper, much easier to convert (cutting a lead figure is remarkably easier than a pewter fig), and by following a few simple rules are not statistically more dangerous than pewter.

The lead doesn't matter unless you are using like rogue trader era models, so let's take the lead argument out of this right now. None of the major tabletop companies have used lead in more than 20 years and anyone who begins again is VERY up front about it, so you can't exactly miss it.