From Greek news articly, November 27:

"War on a table

A plunge into the dark, bizarre and militaristic world of the game that combines modeling and strategy, and holds as "prisoners" thousands of players in Greece and all over the World.

"Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull Throne". This is the motto and war-cry of the servants of the God of Chaos, Khorne (The Antipope: she translates if phonetically to Greek as "Horn"...). If you think that this sentence was "strange" enough as a magazine's article opening line, wait and see what's to come. This started as a report for one of the most popular miniature tabletop games of the last 30 years and I still don't know how I ended up fighting against "Daemons of Chaos" in 40000 AD and hang out with creatures with names such as Necrons, Dark Eldar, Black Angels (not sure what army that is...)and much more like them...undead and badass.

(Caption under my picture): Dedication. Studying the rules needs time, building requires effort, the creation of a decent army...money- up to 500 euros for the starter "set". During the game all this is forgotten though.

(Caption under next picture): Precise calculations. Before any move the player must contemplate on it's consequences. "Somehow like chess..." like they told us, but much bloodier.

Dozens of horrible creatures, together with an Emperor-God (of the earthlings) and four Gods of Chaos, live in the blackest, obscurantist, religionist, militaristic, fundamentalist, authoritarian, racist, abominable and repulsive world ever conceived by the human mind. In fact, by the British mind, since the game was coined and released in England at the beginning of the eighties.

The game, that for the last 30 years has been played by millions of people all over the world, is called "Warhammer:40000 or "40K" for it's friends. With many of these friends (Greeks) we talked about the multifarious 40K and it's exceptional miniatures, modeling, hobby, required intelligence, strategic ability, men (that play), women (that don't) and daemons that eat souls (soul-eating is the pop corn of the future).

In the same future that, as the general motto of the game states, "There is no time for peace. Neither for forgiveness. There is only war. Endless War."

Little "toy soldiers" for men? And beyond...

As an intro into the world of this "joyful" game, we watched ,during a tournament, around forty males (between 18 and 39 years old), with tape measures and dice on hand, planning assaults against the military units that were placed on top of special dioramas (model battlefields with obstacles, buildings, trees etc.). 40K is a game of strategy (or tactics rather) and requires thought, a lot time studying the rules and a certain degree of intelligence of the mathematically skilled type. The toy soldier miniatures-designed with a lot of imagination and incredible details by the company of Games Workshop-have to be assembled and painted by the hobbyists-players. Painting the "armies" is a form of art on it's own accord, to which modelers dedicated hours or even days. Considering all this, when questioned "why do you play" everybody gave the same answer:" Because it's a hobby that gives me the opportunity to do miniature modeling, to think strategically and, mainly, get together with friends at least twice a week, for gaming, talking, painting...". That's great!

At this point it could be the end of this discussion, if there wasn't for the fluff to be considered, i.e. if there was no ideological-mythical environment of 40K. The world "fluff" ,that is the creation of tabletop or non tabletop role playing gamers and it has to do with everything else but the rule set of the game, is the key to open the...darkness of 40K. Because the fictions, facts and characteristics of the bloodthirsty and soul-hungering soldiers are so outrageous that the question "but, why do you want to play?" was coming back to our conversation almost automatically.

To think or not to think?

What does someone need furthermost in order to be able to play 40K? "Brains", most of them think, claiming at the same time that "nobody takes fluff seriously" but also..."I chose the game based on the fluff" or "real life is a different thing to the game" but also..."I have seen in the US the ideology of the army and the player matching to a dangerous degree. I've even seen a player with swastikas tattooed all over his body". So many contradictions they could win a Guinness world record.

Generally speaking, when having to choose the game, but also the army, fluff is always there to play a role. As a 38 old professor of biotechnology told us "I also chose an army based on the fluff - I play with dark eldar..."(he stops to think)"in the end they are psychic vampires..." (pausing and saying out very loud)... "I don't even care about my army's fluff!". Perhaps a mind with mathematical skills is necessary but it also seems necessary that the same mind needs the ability not to be able to...think!

The first thing we found out about the 40 participants of the tournament, is that most of them is what we would call "educated" (higher degree level) and working (you need a lot of money to be able to play 40K seriously for many years). Amongst them we found a manager of marketing in a multinational company, a university professor, a gold smith, a 23 year old business man, many civil engineers and many students (chemists, engineers, mathematicians).

Most of them started off as fans of science or heroic fiction, mythology, history and comic books. Many of them have read the low literary value novels based on the game's fluff, for which 30 year old Thanos said: "If I had a child, I wouldn't let him read these novels before he develops his character". We can summarize the profile of the average 40K player as follows: a rather "introvert", lonely guy that doesn't like to go out, doesn't like to watch the TV or football(!), but he likes listening to music (foreign, and mainly classic rock) and he prefers when going out to talk with friends in cafes or houses. Many of them claimed that they "believe in God", whom they defined as the "beginning" of everything or "the power" of the universe etc. but they don't like his "fan club". Couple of them claimed to be pronounced atheists.

Lastly, we found out that all of them are ready to talk about politics, expressing extreme ideas more or less with words that are somewhat muddled inside their heads. We only found one person who deals with the understanding of human relationships, while most of the other are ignorant even of the word "psychology".

Heil, Emperor?

A large percentage of their population compared with their average number (5 out of the 15 interviewees) had some racist and xenophobic ideas and had been involved with the study of Nazi texts, including "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler. George, a mulatto (from a Greek father and a mother from impoverished Louisiana), one of the most intelligent and sincere kids we met, following the question if the game is "a bit" racist he replied: "It's very racist and in America (US) many gamers identify themselves with that racism. Moreover, Black Templars, that have the Iron Cross as a sign and their colours are black, white and red, are clearly Nazis"

"Have you noticed that a percentage of the players belong to the extreme right wing?" we asked 35 year old Takis, a middle school teacher who claims to be "left wing". "Yes, but I don't know why. Maybe they are fascinated by the epic, heroic or even the racist elements of 40K. Because there is a lot of racism in the game." The next question that came up naturally is if 40K makes you feel superior compared to other people :"Yes, it's a bit elitist. It requires a lot of thought so it makes you feel..."somehow". Somehow superior" said Markos laughing. One of the most extreme statements we heard was :"It's been proved throughout the history of Greece that we can only go forward with a fascist government" said John. "And I am going to be the one executing them", added his friend Fotis.

Playing with your soul?

I would also add, playing with your sword. But why would someone fight with a sword in the technologically super advanced 40000 AD? And why does it's system has to be so authoritarian and obscurantist? And why does the "trophy" have to be the most valuable thing humans have, i.e. their souls?

"Because 40K combines elements that fascinate men, like chivalry, heroism, power, ability, speed etc" said 38 year old widely educated Kostas with his well structured speech. "Probably because we want to look better in comparison. Maybe I would never go to real war, but in the game you can be an awesome hero or a general without having to pay the price in return. For it's system now, the wider the network of planets that human inhabit becomes, the more we will keep losing our humanity. In the minds of the creators of science fiction, there is always a strong central authority necessary, which through cutting down our freedoms and though fear can create a structure in order for that new world to function. In 40K there is a mixture of western imperialism and eastern fundamentalism."

And why does the future has to seem so bleak I wonder: "Because", as 39 year old Giannis is saying "this sells. This game has the best marketing." "Furthermore because reality sucks and progress is even worse" adds the younger Minas. "Everything in the fluff is derived from human history, to an excessive extend maybe, but historically".

Why aren't women playing the game, I ask them: "Now you are delving into a touchy subject", Fotis told me, who is married and has one child. "Women don't go for mentally committing stuff. In order to be able to commit in something so that you can disengage from the everyday life, you have to be a man." Fotis was the same person who told me when I asked him why the ideology of the game is crazy: "Are there any ideological obstacles in fantasy?".

Epilogue

In the interview we did with 23 year old Markos, who describes the game as a "struggle for the survival of the human race" and as the "absolute decline", after he told us that "Warhammer is not a comedy but a tragedy with the classical sense, in a dystopian future" he also express the optimistic thought that "Man has the awesome capacity to conquer everything, even himself." When I asked what does he do to ...conquer himself he answered :"I am reading thousands of books, I am writing down stories and poetry, I work, talk, travel and do thousands of different things. Why? Because I have an enormous stress that I will stay mediocre""

You can see entire news in this post:

http://cadia122.blogspot.com/2011/11/bad-journalism.html

I mean, just because I like 40k I am racist, nationalist, stupid, strange...
This is not right, no reportes has right to insult peopel on this level...

Who can afford Warhammer in Greece?

But that's not the point...

uhh....yeah this is a terrible assumption but its also the opinion of a RANDOM GREEK REPORTER THAT IK FOR SURE I WILL NEVER MEET. As strong as this is and offensive in parts, he is entitled to his own opinion based on the experience he had. We are never going to meet this man, and considering at least for me an American, I couldn't give two ****s about what he thinks of a game I enjoy. I like it. If he doesn't, oh well. Not going to take it to heart. A lot of people generate their own opinions based on site. Its how we function. Even in his interview, its his perspective in life and took his reaction and put it on paper. IDK the laws in Greece in terms of public speech, but obviously if he did it, then it was legal. Nothing we can really do, even if he is discriminating against the people who PLAY A GAME.

I personally think the racism thing is rediculous. I'm sure there are racists that like to play football therefore according to the article football is for racists. I have never encounterd a racist person in all my playing so I think this is a bigger comment on greek society more than anything else. Also the random quote from the guy who says the game is more racist in the US is rediculous. I think Europeans generally as a whole hae an image of the US as a very racist place and little racism in Europe when in fact the opposite is true. I have encountered more blatant anti-sematism and racism in the about 8 weeks I have spent in Europe then I have my whole life living in the US (long streches of which being in Texas and Georgia).

I showed this to my father. This reporter found something to rip on. He wanted to be heard. It was his oppurtunity. He is throwing random assumptions based on color scheme random quotes from the game. He can be as offended as he wants to be, he can't prove any of his claims correct.

@Brother Coa
I feel you man, nobody should be saying things like that, but he isn't doing anything illegal. He isn't making anybody do something illegal, he isn't threatening someone, nor is he selecting out individuals. He can say as much as he wants, but he isn't going to change peoples opinions because of his article. Honestly, who is going to believe that because somebody spends money and time to play a miniature wargame for fun is a racist nationialistic person. Yeah there are strange or weird people who play, and IMO everybody can be weird or strange in their own fashion, and anything unheard of to people is considered strange or weird so can't change that much. Let him talk and don't let his judgement on a bunch of strangers affect who you are. He doesn't know, so his opinion shouldn't matter to you.

Hehehehe

She was just traumatized by the freakish brutality of the setting and went into an anti-fascist tirade because she assumed that everyone who played the game was far-right. This is what happens when you don't do your research.

Funny stuff, not entirely untrue but obviously jumping to conclusions and generalizations.

I am still laughing at this article xD how someone could come to such conclusions is beyond me, my dad said this article is like D&D all over again just instead of Satanists its racists and nationalists

I thought the most interesting part of the article was how they perceive Americans to be, lol.

Yeah xD more than half of my family is from Texas/Alabama and they aren't even as bad as this article portrays, and even americans sometimes say people from the south are the most racist! Yeah my grandma might say the "n" word, but she is over 85 she lives in a comepletely different time plus shes extremly old xD so its different. Thats also the worst my family gets is the occasional word! Not even.

I think the thing the writer either forgot or didn't know is that literature is influenced by the on goings of the time in which it was written. 40k is a piece of literature; therefore it reflects the modern era. 40k also reflects human past. Antisemitism of the first half of the 20th century, and well through the rest of the century. Imperialism of countries like Iraq, Israel (to an extent), a few others. Internal strife and civil war as seen by all of Africa. It's wrong to say that 40k is racist as humans are racist and all those other qualities the author mentioned. You could look at it the other way, but its a bit harder to legitimize your argument.

Pure crap. For the life of me I cant figure out why people must make things into a political debate. Its like saying Monopoly is for tyrants or chess is for racists. It makes no sense, quit putting arbitrary human ideals on Fictional plastic pieces or pretend games.

Hate to see if he went to a Flames of War tourney.

Sukth wrote:
@Brother Coa
I feel you man, nobody should be saying things like that, but he isn't doing anything illegal. He isn't making anybody do something illegal, he isn't threatening someone, nor is he selecting out individuals. He can say as much as he wants, but he isn't going to change peoples opinions because of his article. Honestly, who is going to believe that because somebody spends money and time to play a miniature wargame for fun is a racist nationialistic person. Yeah there are strange or weird people who play, and IMO everybody can be weird or strange in their own fashion, and anything unheard of to people is considered strange or weird so can't change that much. Let him talk and don't let his judgement on a bunch of strangers affect who you are. He doesn't know, so his opinion shouldn't matter to you.

That's not the point, the point is that these newspaper read MILLIONS of people in Greece every day. In some way he widely lowered the GW and game image, it sums up that only "crazy" people play this. And that this game provoke national and racial hatred. IF you hate something that's ok, but making a news article and publicly humiliate thousands of people who play this?
The guy from that blog that showed me this article has send some mail to GW and they say that htey will see what is this all about.

Mal the Wolf wrote:
Hate to see if he went to a Flames of War tourney.

She'd say "oh! everyone who plays FoW is a neo-nazi." What would be funny would be to see her reaction to an Axis and Allies game.

That blogger doesn't have everything right either. "40K doesn't glorify war." Uh-huh

I think if she did, she would go tell the government "I know where all the former Nazi commanders are hiding!!!!"

Sukth wrote:I think if she did, she would go tell the government "I know where all the former Nazi commanders are hiding!!!!"

"...and they've found the fountain of youth."

Wow that reporter must have loads of time on her hands, bashing on a table top wargame. I wonder whats her perspective on video games?

Very true xD but yeah she would call everybody a neo-nazi and just flip a gak.

@Brother Coa
I do see your point and I do agree. He made us look terrible in the eyes of Greece. He is also setting himself up by saying that this game provokes and supports national and racial hatred and causing a lot of people to question his judgement. Anyone who actually tries his opinion in MY view will go to the website and look around and come to the conclusion that no it does none of those things its a game that has a little more "mature" content than some other games do, but its a game and thats all it is. The people who play it play it because they find an aspect of it enjoyable. He just wanted to be heard. This was his way of getting heard.

Whoa whoa whoa! Racism? In 40k? No. The humans are all a happy family. United against the evil aliens who hate you and want nothing more to kill you and eat your babies. Totally not racist.

He seems to have a jump pack, and he uses it to jump to conclusions, instead of combat.

I don't know too much about modern Greek society and culture, but from the tiny little fragments I've gathered over the years, this is unsurprising; I seem to recall the Greek government attempting to pass a bill banning all online gaming under the guise of fighting gambling (despite the fact that this would also ban MMORPGs, shooters, etc)

EDIT: I actually think I have some facts regarding some other stuff I posted wrong, so I'm removing it so I don't look like an ass. Suffice it to say it seems like the Greek mainstream/older generation of Greeks seem to be more out of touch with subcultures and young people than the older generation of Americans, which is something I thought impossible.

Does this mean we can ask for all the bail out money back now...? I'll need some of it so I can repaint my satanic shrine...

.... so?

People completely ignorant of the setting are frightened after meeting some obscure greeks? NO WAI!

I couldn't care less.

We attack at dawn .

Evidently the Greek writer does not understand the meaning of the term satire. 40k universe is a parody of western religious and imperial arrogance throughout history; indeed any human culture can suffice; but 40k selects them specifically. This is just garbage. Why do so called journalists and scholars believe that people have such a simple minded relationship to the objects and cultural items they consume? Just because you play 'violent' video games does not mean you fail to understand the rule of law and society because most human beings make the distinction between fantasy and reality. Just because you watch porn doesn't instantly mean you are a wife beater who hates women and wants hurt them for your own pleasure. Just because 40k plays on the themes of racism, imperialism and genocide DOES NOT MEAN IT ENDORSES IT! Firstly because the context is too far removed from reality to make any comparison worthwhile: in 40k there really are creatures of evil, whereas in real life even the most cruel of individuals are far more complicated and often products of well meant intentions; they certainly believe that what they do is right and argue vigorously about their own virtue right until the end. I study history, I've studied real genocides and real Imperialists; they all justified what they did as virtuous and framed their opponents as evil through the use of language. Secondly, like fox claiming Mass Effect was porn, the person's ignorance on the actual material is staggering. From a few minutes of conversation he presumes that he can offer serious social comment on why a large section of people indulge in an activity. If I were to write a book review for my history module with only reading the back print I would be laughed down as a fool and a moron; this journalist crap is beyond belief! Take one example: after the first war of Armageddon, the Imperium decided it could not risk its people discovering about the demonic incursion and was concerned about the corruption of the survivors. It condemned billions to death in work camps from the heroic survivors 'who had stood in the face of chaos and stood without fear', yet the fluff NEVER says this was a good thing. The Space Wolf (noble space vikings) chapter master goes into an uproar about condeming such brave innocents to death and the language is certainly daming of what the Imperium does. This criticises such callous behaviour toward people, 40k openly demonises such behaviour like religious fanaticism and cauvenistic Imperialism and delusions of racial superiority. How can this ignorant idiot claim anyone, any rational and sane human being would endorse the themes of what they read in 40k novels. In fact such darkness on the Imperial side is deliberately curbed, reduced or only applied to certain members in black library novels for the specific reason of distinguishing such behaviour and making us sympthise with the characters; we could not do that if they were genocidal arseholes.

Also, reading about these themes, what I have no doubt the writer would claim to be a 'macarbe fascination' with death, killings, war and genocide etc is just unfounded. He claims everyone who plays 40k is a crypto-facist. Really? Is my Armenian history lecturer who does a module on genocide in world history also perversely fetishitic for desiring to broach about the subject? Are academic writers, journalists and the like obsessive or craven for writing about these topical issues; both contemporary and historical? Of course not, this writer would exclaim, 'these are academic works that contribute to society!'. But why do you think such individuals are drawn to such themes of military history and genocide as moths to a flame? These are issues at the core of morality and that hold immense emotional power due to the sheer horror of their content. Such issues go to the heart of human morality and conscience. How can this stupid writer claim that interest in these subjects means they're fascists and sado masochists! Anyone with a brain cell in their head cannot help but be struck in awe by the scale of such lofty debates; even as they are repulsed and sickened by how depraved humans can sink yet still call themselves such. Writers enjoy their work as well, not just in history but in horror, war novels and plenty of other media. To take an obvious example, the war series THE PACIFIC was a shockingly gruesome and gory film with soldiers blown to pieces and their bodies pulped into pieces. It stressed the cruel savage hand of war, about how it twists good people into sick feths who kill POW for fun. It has the same message as 40k, it demonises even as it entertains and even as people are drawn to the violence it portrays.

If this is just another bs excuse attempt at some 'moral panic' by the same elitist dickheads who point the finger at computer games and board games whilst their nations police beat and tear gas people in the street for demanding social redress and rights then this is just pathetic. This same daily mail crap that justifies butchery in the middle east, regime change, invasions of countries for resources, turns the poor into murderers and preaches that only the state can hold the right to use violence!? Are these people honestly so deluded and blind? Are they so incapable of understanding that it is the state and the nationalist media that pumps such poison into society to make people follow their foriegn policy and blind them into fear!? Of course! Of course my toy soldiers and their back story are the cause of violence in society! It can't be anything like government making and justifying war, or sending police out to beat protestors, its not massive social inequality and joblessness that leaves poeple resenting the patronising language vomited at them every day until they cannot take the humiliation anymore. No, according to this writer, your toy soldiers and some half baked dark sci fi is the root of violence and intolerence.

Needed to be said

As a greek, that was a little depressing... As a 40k player, though, I thought it was pretty funny

Meh, it's a journalist. Journalists (save for a few rare exceptions) are either stupid, don't care about the truth or both.

xxmatt85 wrote:We attack at dawn .

No, we attack at Midnight, after the goat sacrifice! Didn't you get the memo from Bealzebub!

Jihadnik wrote:

xxmatt85 wrote:We attack at dawn .

No, we attack at Midnight, after the goat sacrifice! Didn't you get the memo from Bealzebub!

Wait, we were going to sacrifice a goat? I already chloroformed my baby nephew!

Thats ok we will just double up like good devil worshipers

Belexar wrote:

Jihadnik wrote:

xxmatt85 wrote:We attack at dawn .

No, we attack at Midnight, after the goat sacrifice! Didn't you get the memo from Bealzebub!

Wait, we were going to sacrifice a goat? I already chloroformed my baby nephew!

A goat? Great, now what am I gonna do with this snake?

moom241 wrote:

Belexar wrote:

Jihadnik wrote:

xxmatt85 wrote:We attack at dawn .

No, we attack at Midnight, after the goat sacrifice! Didn't you get the memo from Bealzebub!

Wait, we were going to sacrifice a goat? I already chloroformed my baby nephew!

A goat? Great, now what am I gonna do with this snake?

Snake boots?

40k is a parody I agree. Take the Catholic Church, make them into fundamentalist warmongering space nazis and you have the ecclesiarchy. It's comical in that it pokes fun, it's dark that somehow you feel as if it could happen.

The TL;DR = we're all racist Nazis. I don't like Jews, they have AV13 transports for only 30points. And don't get me started on the Irish - 2++ 'luck of the Irish saves' FFS...

Phototoxin wrote:The TL;DR = we're all racist Nazis. I don't like Jews, they have AV13 transports for only 30points. And don't get me started on the Irish - 2++ 'luck of the Irish saves' FFS...

Would you mind if I sigged this?

Freedom of the press I guess.

I thought it was ignorant, condescending, and just plain we-tar-did.

I would seriously consider fending out who edits the publication this was written for and firing back.

But I have to get back to touching up the swastikas on my soul sucking boots in time for the snake/goat/nephew sacrifice party.

Hail the Gods of Chaos, may they rain blood upon the realm, Muahahahaha!


The blogger needs to do their research and stop taking it so seriously, it's a game, it doesn't have many real-life consequences. If we play as an army of demon-worshippers, it's because we think that was a cool idea for a GAME. We don't go around drawing pentagrams or "Chaos Stars" everywhere, hailing at an altar of carnage. We play a game for fun and to exercise our strategic thinking skills.

Black Templars are Nazi's? So much for researching the subject. To deny that they're anything but Teutonic Knights in space is ridiculous. Yes the Nazi's boned the Teutons but as a theme it's extremely different.

Pony_law wrote:I Also the random quote from the guy who says the game is more racist in the US is rediculous. I think Europeans generally as a whole hae an image of the US as a very racist place and little racism in Europe when in fact the opposite is true. I have encountered more blatant anti-sematism and racism in the about 8 weeks I have spent in Europe then I have my whole life living in the US (long streches of which being in Texas and Georgia).

Same pretty much.

Yes, I am a Nazi, regardless of the fact that I am part Polish

Brother Coa wrote:Black Angels (not sure what army that is...)

Brother Coa wrote:
A large percentage of their population compared with their average number (5 out of the 15 interviewees) had some racist and xenophobic ideas and had been involved with the study of Nazi texts, including "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler. George, a mulatto (from a Greek father and a mother from impoverished Louisiana), one of the most intelligent and sincere kids we met, following the question if the game is "a bit" racist he replied: "It's very racist and in America (US) many gamers identify themselves with that racism. Moreover, Black Templars, that have the Iron Cross as a sign and their colours are black, white and red, are clearly Nazis"

LOL. Because, you know, they are not Teutonic Knights, AKA, Space Crusaders
Seriously. If the author had done any research at all, they would have noticed that.
If you REALLY wanted to "prove" Nazism in this game, just choose Krieg or Steel Legion. Most people would immedietly thing "NAZIS!!" anyway.

The more the merrier! Let the ceremony begin!

Reporters gets facts wrong for the sake of looking smart?

STOP THE PRESSES!

Namica wrote:Reporters gets facts wrong for the sake of looking smart?

STOP THE PRESSES!

Better yet blow up the presses .

Love it!

In other news, kids spend too much time on thier Iphones!

Thats why I don't have one those cheeky bastards!

On one hand this is kinda funny. On the other it's sad that a reporter is this desperate to stoop to this level of fallacy.

All reading this article really told me is that the Greeks are horrible, horrible people.

Now see that's not true at all, but it's a conclusion I could effortlessly reach applying the same logic this reporter used, and one that I have no doubt would be found as offensive to her. This "study" is based on a tiny select group of 40 alleged neckbeards, which is not representative of the fandom on a whole. Same how said 40 neckbeards are not representatives of Greece on a whole.

First.....I think this is every last bit bordering on pure slander. And second, this article is so terrible its almost like an article out of communist China, in the way it proclaims that other countries are pathetic, and that anything the least bit immaginative needs to be taboo. Jeez. Good thing Greece is in such a debt that they wont even be able to pay the bills to post rags like that anymore. ^.^

So scocializing with my friends over a round of beers and some 40k makes me a bigot? Hmmm I thought it was the big ass Confederate flag in the yard. /sarcasm

I wonder what she'll think when she meets us Dark Eldar players...

Why does a Greek article keep saying Americans are racsist when discussing Greek geeks playing a British game?

This can sit on the shelf next to the religious nuts who claim all Australians are going to hell because one Australian actor played a gay cowboy.

And does anyone else see the irony in that if this was the 40k universe, the reporter would have been dragged out of bed by the Arbites for sedition?

To her credit, it's not exactly what society considers "normal".

Either way, meh. Stuff like this comes up like every 6 or so months.

Cryonicleech wrote:To her credit, it's not exactly what society considers "normal".

Either way, meh. Stuff like this comes up like every 6 or so months.

Is it though? She's not quite throwing the nerd hater book at 40k players; although it clearly has warped her judgement. What she criticises is a percieved aggression, competition and chauvanism in the game; that anyone who wanted to do something like this clearly has right wing tendencies and is violent/ covering up their own inadequecies by making a competition out of a socially irrelevent activity. This is bs taken out of context. Countless 'masculine' activites, especially football which she considers to be a normal activity, explicitly do this. Football is a childs game that most of the population played as infants. Most men do not actually play football but sit on their arses at work in offices or as laborors of questionable ability. Despite this they feel the compunction to get off their arses (or simply stay on them to watch it on the TV) to watch men (or even women) more young and vigorous than themselves fight metaphorical wars between nations and cities that have no actual social relevence. Competition is engendered into the male mindset from a very early age, the fact that nerds and geeks apply that to wargames in advanced age is besides the point. Just think how much violence is perpetuated in football, how many hooligans cling to it as an excuse for violence or as a 'cause' to rally behind; to feel part of something greater. I'am actually astounded that a woman wouldn't have recognised this as being the near universal trait that it is, or that soicety at all levels openly encourages competition as the basis of capitalist society; even to some extent engendered as a defining characteristic of what is stereotypically expected of men. Suffice to say, not every man or woman who goes to a football match is a violent hooligan or is plastering over some irksome sense of social isolation.

note: I do not mean men are 'naturally' inclined towards this and so implying women are the exact opposite. But I do believe that society still basically pressures gender upon men and women to behave in a certain way and that despite much change/rewriting of what gender entails it still remains very prominent in peoples behaviour.

Well, after a day of beating my wife, hating my neighbours ( and myself ) for being black and cutting a swastika into my forehead with a rusty spoon i sure enjoy a game of 40k.

Actually, as being Greek and live there this is the first time I have seen this. Am I surprised? Not really several years ago some of the so-called "media" went on a rampage for PnP RPG's. Some years after they went on a different rampage on the violance in pc-games. Did anyone actually paid any attention to it? Not really. Did they influence someone? Nah...

Anyway, my point is that that artcile was published to provoke. It did not manage it.

Also you mean to tell me that a single .... represents the community? I already know the answer.

To be honest I am actually disappointed to see Kathimerini to publish such an..."article"...

PS Borther Coa, you are playing the game of the journalist, the writer of the above article knows exactly what it is, and knows EXACTLY what she types...by reproducing slander you help spreading it. So in conclusion just ignore

PS2 I apologize to everybody for what she has written...I actually feel ashamed...

Edit1&4 : grammar
Edit 2: Added PS
Edit 3: In the link provided by Brother Coa, I totally agree with the blogger. This is a disgrace...

That article reads like the usual stuff written by religious people when they are trying to build up a case against dungeons and dragons, magic the gathering and any other hobby that has some kind of monster in it. It does not surprise me in any way. Its exactly the kind of stuff that people with the journalists worldview like to perpetuate, that people who engage in such hobbies are evil, racist Nazis.

It saddens me how journalism like that takes place, but then it exists to reinforce the preconceived opinions of the readers instead of reporting actual truth.

What really gets my goat (HA!) about this, is that the 'Journalist' obviously knows next to nothing about German Military history. The Iron Cross is about as far removed from Nazism as Greece itself!

It just seems to be the usual hatefuelled tirade against those with an imagination...

Meh, not surprised at all really. I feel that a few on this forum though are wasting their breath posting miles of text

One, the media is silly
Two, it is very easy to rip on nerdy things (why hello there Dungeons and Dragons)
Three, people are entailed to their own opinions (after all, I live in TEXAS, I get used to it)

men (that play), women (that don't)

You fething what?!

"I'm sorry, Cadian 51st Regiment, you Red Eagles have been loyal as an army but apparently I don't play so you'll have to go off and find a man to be your commander."

Or not. Screw that.

KingDeath wrote:Well, after a day of beating my wife, hating my neighbours ( and myself ) for being black and cutting a swastika into my forehead with a rusty spoon i sure enjoy a game of 40k.

Im putting this in my sig!

A truly terrible article, embarrassingly reminiscent of the 1980s moral panic about Dungeons and Dragons. The author's fact-twisting, misused correlations and simple innacuracies are of an extent sufficient that a litigious company could plausibly issue a libel writ over this as damaging to their business, even if only as a threat to pressure the paper's owners to print a retraction.

Lucky for the paper in question, Games Workshop aren't the sort of corporation to fire off writs on full-auto whenever they feel aggrieved... oh, wait...

The article is backwards, but seems like it'd only be super insultive to those of you that really get into the fluff. And the fluff is pretty damn stupid.

And looks like she interviewed a bunch of socially lacking fanboys.

Belexar wrote:I wonder what she'll think when she meets us Dark Eldar players...

We must meet her and act like our ideologies are as exactly the same as DE as possible... and choose our clothing accordingly.

Negator80 wrote:The article is backwards, but seems like it'd only be super insultive to those of you that really get into the fluff. And the fluff is pretty damn stupid.

And looks like she interviewed a bunch of socially lacking fanboys.

Of course I don't deny its stupid! But its more entertaining n light going than what I learn in history and you really can't have a conversation about; 10th century Armenain kings minting coins or Zhungar mongol trade with the Qing dynasty . It got under my skin because of its tone, what she was reading into certain elements of the hobby and blowing them out of any context. Its not really that about misreading the fluff.

Also, why is there such obsession with bashing geeks and nerds in popular media at the minute? Does the stereotype embody something they hate or resent? I just don't get it. I suppose you could say Iam socially lacking, but I have my own personal reasons for that, and any writer who holds that against me is massively in the wrong from where Iam standing.

moom241 wrote:Whoa whoa whoa! Racism? In 40k? No. The humans are all a happy family. United against the evil aliens who hate you and want nothing more to kill you and eat your babies. Totally not racist.

He seems to have a jump pack, and he uses it to jump to conclusions, instead of combat.

except for the damn barbarian catachans and tanith, who we'll make right proper soldiers and members of the imperium.... damn barbarians....

poda_t wrote:

moom241 wrote:Whoa whoa whoa! Racism? In 40k? No. The humans are all a happy family. United against the evil aliens who hate you and want nothing more to kill you and eat your babies. Totally not racist.

He seems to have a jump pack, and he uses it to jump to conclusions, instead of combat.

except for the damn barbarian catachans and tanith, who we'll make right proper soldiers and members of the imperium.... damn barbarians....

You mean those forces that are hugely respected by anyone that actually knows what they have done? It's only the guys from noble words who think of them as barbarians, who themselves are thought of as snobs.

Besides, that's not racism anyway.

Belexar wrote:Meh, it's a journalist. Journalists (save for a few rare exceptions) are either stupid, don't care about the truth or both.

I am journalist myself, and I agree with this rough description...

Anyway, what we can read in OP post is not really journalism. It is disguised to look like it, but in the end the writer only supports a thesis he had in mind for a time, obviously.

Has this lady met frazz ?

She probably did all those people she interviewed sound a lot like the kids in my store. Which is basically all just fanboys who lack certain social skills required in life. I will freely admit that yes I am a nerd. I play halo, warhammer, D&D before warhammer, did Warcraft for like a week, I played runescape I played so much. I am a comeplete and utter nerd. HOWEVER. Quote from my friend on the way home one day, and this probably has happened to all you awesomely awesome people out there,
"Dude, you are a nerd. But the difference between you and the other nerds is that you get bitches like it rains 'em!" xD

Chowderhead wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:The TL;DR = we're all racist Nazis. I don't like Jews, they have AV13 transports for only 30points. And don't get me started on the Irish - 2++ 'luck of the Irish saves' FFS...

Would you mind if I sigged this?

Not at all...

Devil-worshiping Nazi’s who desire the souls of all we meet. And apparently we don’t watch TV or enjoy football! Good God!

What a hilarious article. It’s fun watching people write about things they don’t understand.


And what's the obsession with souls? They're part of 40K, but hardly the currency of 40K.

Soladrin wrote:

poda_t wrote:

moom241 wrote:Whoa whoa whoa! Racism? In 40k? No. The humans are all a happy family. United against the evil aliens who hate you and want nothing more to kill you and eat your babies. Totally not racist.

He seems to have a jump pack, and he uses it to jump to conclusions, instead of combat.

except for the damn barbarian catachans and tanith, who we'll make right proper soldiers and members of the imperium.... damn barbarians....

You mean those forces that are hugely respected by anyone that actually knows what they have done? It's only the guys from noble words who think of them as barbarians, who themselves are thought of as snobs.

Besides, that's not racism anyway.

its not as developed in the books, but it is there, the 'tribes-worlders' and death worlders are treated like assticles

Well, the Tanith call the inhabitants of the planet Pyrites soft and not-used-to-war, it's pretty much the same thing, reversed.

This shoddy piece of yellow journalism shows why Greece is in the mess it is in today.
They have forgotten their roots.
Liberial cults have taken strong root and we need to contact the Ordo Hereticus.

Zakiriel wrote:This shoddy piece of yellow journalism shows why Greece is in the mess it is in today.

I wouldn't speak so fast, it's no better than the rubbish our press churns out. As our current inquiry into the press is making very public in the UK, when they write a story they just make stuff up to fit the brief they were given. I doubt half the quotes in this piece were real and the rest very selectively chosen to fit what they were asked to write. But it hits all the buttons of the alarmist "what about the children" crowd who like to talk about the corruption of modern society.

He says...

This is typical of the "leftist' culture in most major Greek media (for all the wrong reasons by the way).

I'm quite surprised to hear that, because in actual fact I think the alarmist articles talking about Nazism and anti-christian themes, lack of morality and corruption of kids, due to gaming are the same as those aimed at D&D and computer games and many other niche groups. And that all comes from the hate of the right wing press.

We haven't seen a right wing press in some time. But then a discussion based in right wing and left wing don't define terms very well. It's really about a slidding scale of political types ranging from total control on one side to no control on the other.

Here is a link if you want to know more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4r0VUybeXY

I got a headache reading that horribly written article. When I saw the URL ending with "bad-journalism.html " I thought "no s**t..."

Zakiriel wrote:We haven't seen a right wing press in some time.

You have an american flag.

Are you from a parallel universe?

Trololo Haters gonna hate.

People said similar things to DND when that was getting big( Replace every mention of Racism with Satanism and you have the standard bash DND article)

Howard A Treesong wrote:Who can afford Warhammer in Greece?

Sir, Touché.

I thought the part about the lonely losers living in their parents basements was f'ing hilarious! Seriously ...most of the gamers I know are married and have kids, even some whose wives play and are better than their husbands! Personally I think the reporter is just scared of that which he does not know!

People said similar things to DND when that was getting big

I wish I still had the educational comic for teenagers that showed how D&D was a precursor to black magic and made people commit suicide.

Twas high-larious.

Yeah, heard it all before. Same old 'don't let your kids play with violent video games' stuff. Please...

CadianCommander wrote:

People said similar things to DND when that was getting big

I wish I still had the educational comic for teenagers that showed how D&D was a precursor to black magic and made people commit suicide.

Twas high-larious.

Do you mean this one?

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP

The associated articles even claim that even if you don't go down the path of satanism, a result of using D&D books is that you could innocently conjure a demon or case a curse.

Which is totally, and utterly mad.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Zakiriel wrote:We haven't seen a right wing press in some time.

You have an american flag.

Are you from a parallel universe?

No, it means he's far more qualified than you to speak on the subject.

gaovinni wrote:

Belexar wrote:I wonder what she'll think when she meets us Dark Eldar players...

We must meet her and act like our ideologies are as exactly the same as DE as possible... and choose our clothing accordingly.

You have to beat the Inquisition players there first. Bring marshmallows.

Negator80 wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Zakiriel wrote:We haven't seen a right wing press in some time.

You have an american flag.

Are you from a parallel universe?

No, it means he's far more qualified than you to speak on the subject.

Rubbish, there's no right wing press in the US? Sorry, but you'd have to be stupid to think that. Yes, I live in the UK, but I have read the news output of other countries, I have eyes and ears.

There's a right and left wing media in the UK just as in the US, and there's certainly good representation of the right wing in the US. This idea that the media/press is now controlled by the left is a bizarre republican fantasy. The fact someone can say there isn't a right wing press in the US just shows how normalised it's become to the extent that they can't even recognise it for what it is.

Wait i collect warhammer, does that mean i worship the devil? damn i didnt even know! that sneaky devil.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Negator80 wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Zakiriel wrote:We haven't seen a right wing press in some time.

You have an american flag.

Are you from a parallel universe?

No, it means he's far more qualified than you to speak on the subject.

Rubbish, there's no right wing press in the US? Sorry, but you'd have to be stupid to think that. Yes, I live in the UK, but I have read the news output of other countries, I have eyes and ears.

There's a right and left wing media in the UK just as in the US, and there's certainly good representation of the right wing in the US. This idea that the media/press is now controlled by the left is a bizarre republican fantasy. The fact someone can say there isn't a right wing press in the US just shows how normalised it's become to the extent that they can't even recognise it for what it is.

I never said there isnt any at all, but the large majority here IS lefty. Id put the numbers around 20%.

Treesong obviously was making a very general statement, rather than saying 'there isnt any at all'.

If that was right, then 40k players would be satanists, warmongers, sadists, vandals, communists, and so on... Maybe if she read the fluff and got to know the fans better, then she'd know what she was talking about. If the Dark Eldar or the Ordo Hereticus captured her, I wouldn't give a ...

Skimmed it, lol'd.

This reporter has NO idea what he or she is talking about, that being said, CLEANSE! PURGE! KILL!!

Not football fans?!? I hope she means soccer not american football because after I get done with this there leather skin head orgy I'ma sacrafice my brother and 12 chickens to the devil and Illuminati so I'm sure LSU whips Alabama's ass again.

Ignore her...if people like her are right, GW, no, all game producers, 40k and otherwise would have gone out of business long ago...we should thank her for one thing though, thanks to her, players and fans of all factions agree on one thing: she has no idea what she's talking about...

I love how this "journalist" gets so upset that these 40k players generalize and "acts all racist" then she goes on generalizing about a hobby played by millions of people (her own words) based on what 15 people said. What a fething moron

And this is everything I dislike about journalism; generalizations, gross-oversimplification, and a vague understanding of the topic matter, with views culled from a disproportionately small selection of a relevant populace.

Its funny how people can spin things differently.

In my public speaking class last semester, I gave an informative speech on 40K. It was about 5 minutes long, and I brought in some painted figures for my class to look at. The speech went really well, and some people in the class actually expressed interest in possibly starting. We conversed (positively) on the subject for so long, my professor had to cut us off in order to finish our lesson. And I didn't even try to be that positive.

The racism thing I found funny. I think that the racism in 40k is more like the bible. Its a story of how things should or shouldn't be done. In 40k's instance, if everyone is racist and intolerant, then the world (or universe) is filled with hate and death. So I think that any sane rational person can see that by doing the opposite, we can have a much happier place to live in.

This is the funniest article I have read in a long time, it's incredible how narrow minded people can be.........like my ex

So when will their be marches for nerd culture? It seems to me that we (me being a nerd) are the true 2nd class of the world. We all get look down by all groups in ways that is more hateful and mean than most(now days).

When will congress pass laws/bills to help my people?

We are the forgotten in this time of civil rights and we must stand up and say "I am a NERD and I am proud!".

Well that how I fell about this and how people treat us. We out number any other group out their and get so little help or out reach programs.

I believe that most people are nerds that are emotionally and socially driven to despise their true nature and therefor live stunted and self-hating lives.....most likely including this journalist.

Also most of the "nerds" that i know of have families, beautiful wifes/girlfriends, successful careers, and can drink most non-nerds under the table....

Lesson here: Embrace your Nerdyness and Live Long and Prosper!!!!

1) When I average out the political leaning of the 40k players I know, it comes out slightly Left leaning, mostly centrist, very few right and no far right. And Most 40k players I know are military, a group notoriously right leaning. Not that I just me and my VERY narrow band of experience, not nearly enough to make any serious claims about anything. But I can say conclusively that I lean pretty far left (very few gay atheist vegan conservatives in the US).

Also nerds tend to be among the most stable and productive members of society, and you have to do pretty well to afford this hobby. We may have a small tendency toward some level of social isolation, but that is largely due to dealing with nerd haters in high school.

I, for one, am proud to be fan of sci-fi.
I am also finishing university ( 2 more years ) and work every summer.

Her comment is invalid.

OTOH, why I must watch football to be "normal"? That sport is boring to me, wee at least when I am not playing

Simple end to this, If you dont like dont take part in it, another Bulls*** story, its the same from mothers about family guy or the sort, if you dont want your children or yourself to be in it, then dont be simple

So she seems to have a pretty heavily biased view on gamers.
Whats wrong with working people?
I bet she would get an even better write up from a benefits office.

So, comparison to her summary:

Dont go out alot - i work 5 days a week, the other 2 i get plastered with mates.

Most claim to be religious - Erm, big no there. Never have been, never will be.

Higher levels of knowledge - Erm, yea, i finished school!
Thats it really.
I think all you need to play is "common sense"

Ready to talk politics - Erm, i associate the term "politic" with the word "bollocks"
Thats my views on it anyway.

Some seem to be racist - Erm, of course i am!
feth off! one of my closest friends in kenyan for feths sake.


She seems to do alot of talking and digging up info, but none of which seems to be anything closeto correct.

1. Greek Reporter. You'd think they'd have other things to report on. Like how they're trying to drag the entire world's economy down with their own.

2. Greek Reporter. Why do we care?

I guess I better tell all my satan worshipping KKK skinhead buddies we can longer play 40k :(

My opinions are somewhat biased towards her anyway.
Just seem to have this dislike towards people that get paid to put a slant on the truth to gain a feeble story at best.

Reporters and journo's are all alike though, if they can extend the truth here and there or miss out a bit to make it sound more to thier liking, then they do it.

That reporter is a heretic! Burn the heretic!

What we as wargamers should take from this is to never play 40k in Greece.

StringBassKnight wrote:What we as wargamers should take from this is to never play 40k in Greece.

It's no worse, no where near as bad, as some of that published about D&D in the US.

Hmmm. Now, I can see where he is comming from (even though that's at least as contreversial as Mat Ward writing 6th edition), I'm inlined to belive thatnthis reporter was already a bit on the anti 40k side.

Now, disliking 40k is fine, people are allowed to have an opinion.

But that was an insult based on seeing 40ish gamers. It's not a fair test.

And also, Me?! Racist?! I've learnt from experience (ie, Adolf Hitler) that racism gets you screwed.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

CadianCommander wrote:

People said similar things to DND when that was getting big

I wish I still had the educational comic for teenagers that showed how D&D was a precursor to black magic and made people commit suicide.

Twas high-larious.

Do you mean this one?

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.ASP

The associated articles even claim that even if you don't go down the path of satanism, a result of using D&D books is that you could innocently conjure a demon or case a curse.

Which is totally, and utterly mad.

Wow. Hey, you know if there's people who actually burn D&D stuff? Because I would totally go there, walk to the pile, grab what I can and make a run for it. They're gonna burn it anyways, they won't care if I take some and start playing myself. Those damn things are hard to get down here.

Belexar wrote:Wow. Hey, you know if there's people who actually burn D&D stuff? Because I would totally go there, walk to the pile, grab what I can and make a run for it. They're gonna burn it anyways, they won't care if I take some and start playing myself. Those damn things are hard to get down here.

Bit out of fashion now, they burn Harry Potter instead. I find something deeply troubling about burning books.

Seems that Tipper Gore got tired of chasing the Heavy Metal and now is worried about Greek teens. How cute.

The manager of my local GW is a woman and she loves both WHFB and 40k. Racism and Xenophobia are two very different things. And let's see how these guys would choose to govern a galaxy-spanning Empire when at any moment Daemons could come pouring through any manner of portals or psykers. These people are clearly nerds of the worst kind and give the rest of us a bad name.

He should go down to a NASCAR race to talk racism or play Call of duty for an hour and listen to all the racist/homophobic comments you hear. It's sick. You are going to find racist people where ever you go whether it's a hobby show, sporting event, or canasta game in an old folks home.

Interesting article but like you all are saying..who can afford 40K in Greece. Loved that comment.

Haters gonna hate.

Hate to tell you guys but the right wing tromped the left out of the congress last year.
The reason why foregners think the US is mostly left is because the media is 99% left wing and refuse to show conservatives in anything other than a bad light.
Don't spend what you don't have, the nerve of them.

This article is just another in a lone line since they invented the die.
D&D used to make you worship the devil and play the game for real making you hack up your friend.
Ozzy's music makes you commit suicide blah blah blah.
These people are control freaks pure and simple and will not rest until they bend you to thier will.
They are infact a very small minority.
The majority of us just live our lives in our own little bubbles and never can be bothered to call them on thier bullsh$%.
And before you know it you dance to thier drummer and not your own.

With everything else happening in Greece this is what the journalist choose to write about? Sounds to me like someone got snubbed from the big stories and is trying to get recognition writing about toy soldiers.

I'm detecting a hint of bias in the journalist's report. I'm a little sad the only place I can find news that isn't just selling their own agenda is in documentaries.

Personally i'd say there was alot more xenophobia in the article than in wargamers attitude. Things like
we talked to some gamers (greeks)
listen to rock, most of it foreign
Invented in the 80's by the british, by the british mind
George, a mulatto
(all of those statements paraphrased)

Eisenhorn wrote:Hate to tell you guys but the right wing tromped the left out of the congress last year.
The reason why foregners think the US is mostly left is because the media is 99% left wing and refuse to show conservatives in anything other than a bad light.
Don't spend what you don't have, the nerve of them.

This article is just another in a lone line since they invented the die.
D&D used to make you worship the devil and play the game for real making you hack up your friend.
Ozzy's music makes you commit suicide blah blah blah.
These people are control freaks pure and simple and will not rest until they bend you to thier will.
They are infact a very small minority.
The majority of us just live our lives in our own little bubbles and never can be bothered to call them on thier bullsh$%.
And before you know it you dance to thier drummer and not your own.

Sorry to be "that guy", but do you have any evidence for your claims that American media is "99% leftist" or are you just throwing around random numbers for the hell of it?

Re: Leftist/Rightist media in America: Umm....could this perhaps be made a diff thread so we can concentrate on showing our disgust and amusement at the original article?

....though for the record, an old housemate of mine moved from America because of the media and what it was doing to society there, and how misrepresented it was towards the right.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Sorry to be "that guy", but do you have any evidence for your claims that American media is "99% leftist" or are you just throwing around random numbers for the hell of it?

Isn't Fox News the most widely watched channel? Please tell me that's left wing. I won't be drawn into this further because the idea that the media in the US is dominated by the left wing is utter delusion, a republican paranoia. The right wing have easily have their fair share of media coverage in the US through TV and print. The only countries with that level of political bias in their media suggested by some on this thread are those completely state controlled - the US, UK and other western countries simply aren't like that and have a good share across the political spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_bias_in_the_United_States

You know what I love doing on saturdays, I love smashing people over in a friendly game of Aussie rules football. After that I love smashing people over with boltgun fire.

I listen to "normal" music and I am a swinging voter, I vote for the candidate that is going to do the best for my country . But According to this gak hole "reporter" I am a neo Nazi and a RACIST, sure the hit at 40k is funny but the personal attacks are just insulting. (Sorry if this sounds like a rant)

I would like to point out to this "reporter" that she is generalizing an entire set of people, Exactly what recism is all about. I wonder if this "reporter" even has the IQ to understand his/her own actions. Or is this just a disapointing display of todays media?

CadianCommander wrote:Re: Leftist/Rightist media in America: Umm....could this perhaps be made a diff thread so we can concentrate on showing our disgust and amusement at the original article?

Agreed, made a new thread in the OT forum.

Back on topic: T'is a shame.

i wouldnt put much stock in this article. If I remember correctly greece has the worst economic situation, has protesters that firebomb banks that end up killing mothers with their babies, and the highest cigarette consumption per person in the world. This writer is just some kid out of college that wants to vent her anger on her countries failures by badmouthing western hobbies. In a world where everything causes cancer and everything is a conspiracy theory, it dosent hurt to turn cheek and not pay attention, because posting this article on forums and whatnot just fuels the story by spreading it more and more.

THIS IS.....

CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT time?

Lol, the person who wrote this sounds like the person who claims video games will turn all the youth into pyscho killers...

In other words, a nutjob!

LoL the closest thing to racism i ever had in 40k was me and my buddies poking fun at each others races. (orks are dumb, eldar are weak, crons are old, ect)

I have never encounterd a racist person in all my playing

You are extremely lucky then. In spite of living in a highly diverse state overall I see and hear horrible racist comments at game stores all the time and even more sadly so has my son when playing with other kids.

The PDF tried to stop her from reporting inccorectly, but were killed to a man

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Sorry to be "that guy", but do you have any evidence for your claims that American media is "99% leftist" or are you just throwing around random numbers for the hell of it?

Isn't Fox News the most widely watched channel? Please tell me that's left wing. I won't be drawn into this further because the idea that the media in the US is dominated by the left wing is utter delusion, a republican paranoia. The right wing have easily have their fair share of media coverage in the US through TV and print. The only countries with that level of political bias in their media suggested by some on this thread are those completely state controlled - the US, UK and other western countries simply aren't like that and have a good share across the political spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_bias_in_the_United_States

It's widely watched because folks here are sick of having leftist stuff crammed down their throats from the majority of news channels/sites/papers.

Why do you think the media is 90% focused on destroying the Republican candidates, and is completely ignoring the potentially explosive controversies related to the president? Because he's a democrat, and the democratic media likes him.

Oh, and linked just under that wiki article you googled, are these links you should look at as well:

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx
http://www.mrc.org/biasbasics/biasbasics1.asp
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.8.htm

Negator80 wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Sorry to be "that guy", but do you have any evidence for your claims that American media is "99% leftist" or are you just throwing around random numbers for the hell of it?

Isn't Fox News the most widely watched channel? Please tell me that's left wing. I won't be drawn into this further because the idea that the media in the US is dominated by the left wing is utter delusion, a republican paranoia. The right wing have easily have their fair share of media coverage in the US through TV and print. The only countries with that level of political bias in their media suggested by some on this thread are those completely state controlled - the US, UK and other western countries simply aren't like that and have a good share across the political spectrum.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_bias_in_the_United_States

It's widely watched because folks here are sick of having leftist stuff crammed down their throats from the majority of news channels/sites/papers.

Why do you think the media is 90% focused on destroying the Republican candidates, and is completely ignoring the potentially explosive controversies related to the president? Because he's a democrat, and the democratic media likes him.

Oh, and linked just under that wiki article you googled, are these links you should look at as well:

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/Media-Bias-Is-Real-Finds-UCLA-6664.aspx
http://www.mrc.org/biasbasics/biasbasics1.asp
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/polisci/faculty/groseclose/Media.Bias.8.htm

I really hate that this has now turned into a debate about the slant of American media, Instead discussing a GREEK (read: not american) article that is both hyperbolic and inaccurate. If we wanted to discuss politics in anything other than the vaguest of senses and terms, there are forums out there specializing in that.

Now I do want to add that the article is anti-american out of nowhere. I realize that the US is not the most popular country in the world, and some of the bashing is probably deserved, but this article is about Greeks that play a British game. Surely there are better places for bashing the US.

Totalwar1402 wrote: alot of stuff that made sense

before I start let me disclose the fact that I have no political party, and I am saying everything completely unbiased.

I completely agree with you about the freakin' media potraying violent video games as the root of our countries problems. In America, the republican party (sort of like your conservative and unionist party across the pond) wants to raise taxes on the middle/lower class and almost exempt taxes on the upper class. I mean look at my country, look at your country, its worse than the winter of discontent as people are protesting on wall street and taking up city streets screaming at the top of their lungs for things to change. For some relief to their lives! BUT WHAT DOES THE GOVERNMENT DO?

My portrayal on the republican party's statement to the protests
"We've come to address these 99% ralleys with the following... We will be raising your taxes, while lowering the rich taxes..."

"WHAT THE FETHHHHHHHHEHEHTHEHHH?!!?!?!" screamed the 99% at the top of their lungs.

"Oh right! that could be a bad idea... INSTEAD of raising your taxes, we will cut our federal budget thus laying off 100,000 jobs... we couuuuulddd tax the rich but that would require us 50 guys in washington to not own our new mansions in Beverly Hills... sorry,"


Why do I bring this up comparing it to the greek article? Because this just proves people are RE-TAR-DED. Why do you think that journalists put of the impression of "I'VE FOUND IT! SEE! SEE! THIS IS WHATS CAUSING ALL THE ECONOMIC FAILURE AND MURDERS IN ATHENS! I'VE FOUND IT GUYS! LOOK DOOD!"

Because that's what sells magazines. EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD BOILS DOWN TO GREED! GREED is what causes Gamesworkshop to overprice their models. GREED is what causes idiotic politicians to tax the poor and help the rich. GREED is what causes DOUCHEY JOURNALISTS to write about bs. GREED is what causes the media to SCREAM AND SHOUT about how there was a sex scene in a video game.

LOL I can see it now!

"TONIGHT A FOX NEWS SPECIAL REPORT!"

Parents: "Ooooh another special report?!!!? wow COOL!"

"SEX IN YOUR CHILDREN'S VIDEO GAMES????!!!"

parents: "OMGGG WHAT THE feth???!" as the parents hold eachother

"Hi I'm Todd Stfualready, If you've bought the game "Mass Effect" for you're kids, be warned! THERES A SEX SCENE IN THERE LUL!"

parents: "OMG BILLY!" as they run up the stairs crying, "HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN?! WE WANT BLOOD!"

"This is Todd Stfualready signing off saying, video games are bad and so is sex. Goodnight everybody."

what the reporter failed to say was that there was no nipple, nor penis, nor vagina shown. Neither were the words "OH OH DO ME DO ME HARDER FASTER OHHH YEAHHHH" said that they already hear through the wall at night.

Leaving parts out is a common thing to do. The journalist probably asked 40 people about why they play the races and picked out those who had a very awkward response. Like the biotech scientist that played dark eldar. Did he really want to tell this guy that "I like the fluff because I like how the dark eldar enslave and torture people. It's this awesome dark side that I love to explore." I.E its forbidden, a taboo, that this biotech guy likes (I don't know the REAL reasons behind it but it probably had to do with the guy really not wanting to say deep reasons to someone he doesn't even know, not to mention it would be written down for the world to see?"

I mean I play slaanesh chaos. I don't want to tell people who don't understand 40k that "I love the fact that slaanesh is about SEX and Pleasure. Thats why I based my CSM off them because I'm super horny all the time (Jk)" I honestly have deep reasons why I play Slaanesh and tbh I'm not going to disclose that with anyone I don't really know()

Journalists just take things and turn them around to make controversy so people will read their sheise so they can make money. simple as that. http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103829/tigger-yum-yum

shadowsnip wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote: alot of stuff that made sense

In America, the republican party (sort of like your conservative and unionist party across the pond) wants to raise taxes on the middle/lower class and almost exempt taxes on the upper class. I mean look at my country, look at your country, people its worst than the winter of discontent as people are protesting on wall street and taking up city streets screaming at the top of their lungs for things to change. For some relief to their lives! BUT WHAT DOES THE GOVERNMENT DO?

My portrayal on the republican party's statement to the protests
"We've come to address these 99% ralleys with the following... We will be raising your taxes, while lowering the rich taxes..."

"WHAT THE FETHHHHHHHHEHEHTHEHHH?!!?!?!" screamed the 99% at the top of their lungs.

"Oh right! that could be a bad idea... INSTEAD of raising your taxes, we will cut our federal budget thus laying off 100,000 jobs... we couuuuulddd tax the rich but that would require us 50 guys in washington to not own our new mansions in Beverly Hills... sorry,"

My friends across the pond please do not take this comment seriously. Like the article in the original post it is an over the top inaccurate exaggeration fueled by bias and personal motive.

And not to get OT again, but just because there is ONE conservative media outlet in the US it does not mean that the vast majority of outlets, which cover the majority of the population, do not present and extremely left view.

I'm not taking an extremely left view, I'm basically quoting what the right wing is doing.

My main point of my original post was that it all boils down to greed. No matter where you go greed will get you. It doesn't matter if its a left wing news show all they have to do is to spin the truth to make Republicans seem like jerk offs.

I mean how many democratic politicians are under some coporations payroll? Like common.

Every freakin news station exagerates the truth. Which I'm referring to the greek article itself.

ver stanzie?

Lets see how about how every conservative is demonized
But the media never asked one follow up question to Obama about Bill Aires who is a convicted terrorist who helped him when he worked for Acorn and when he was running the first time
O answered that Bill is just a guy from the neighborhood when it is proven by records they had many dealings
Or that he went to a church for 20 years that constantly blasts America,the Rev Jerimia Wright even said about 9/11 Americas chickens have come home to roost,but Obama got a pass on that too
If you look at all the media moguls with the exception of Murdock, they all contribute heavily to the socialists, erm sorry I ment democrat

I always found you guys on this website to be rather upbeat friendly people lol if most players are like that in store i dont see how we are all evil?

Then again i love how she says, doesnt do this, that PLAY FOOTBALL! and this and that lol

since when has football been a requirment to been a good life loving person? football fans are usually alittle violent lol why dont we ask why she isnt in the kitchen if you want to be sexist like that.

shadowsnip wrote:I mean how many democratic politicians are under some coporations payroll? Like common.

A HUGE number. And the ridiculous thing about it is brokerage houses and financial firms which the OWS people seem to hate so much give most of their money to democrats.

And sorry to get even more off topic but I can't stand the whole notion of the 99% vs. the 1%. It's more like the 49% that take money out of the system vs. the 51% that put money in. I'm not wealthy but I work and I pay taxes a not insignificant amount of taxes and if you make me pick sides between billionaires who also work and pay taxes and unproductive leaches who drag the system down I'll throw my towel in with the billionaires every time.

And it's not purely greed, its morality. A wealthy parent who chooses not to hand their child everything doesn't do it because of greed. They do it because the child needs to learn how to make their way in the world. Our nation, and from what I can tell many European nations, no longer place any importance on self-sufficiency. I would not mind paying more in taxes if they were being put to good use. But 2/3 of our national budget goes to enabling people to be dependent children of daddy government. I don’t want to support that because keeping people in a perpetual state of servitude to their government representative is not right.

Eisenhorn wrote:Lets see how about how every conservative is demonized
But the media never asked one follow up question to Obama about Bill Aires who is a convicted terrorist who helped him when he worked for Acorn and when he was running the first time
O answered that Bill is just a guy from the neighborhood when it is proven by records they had many dealings
Or that he went to a church for 20 years that constantly blasts America,the Rev Jerimia Wright even said about 9/11 Americas chickens have come home to roost,but Obama got a pass on that too
If you look at all the media moguls with the exception of Murdock, they all contribute heavily to the socialists, erm sorry I ment democrat

I'm really sorry that the truth has a liberal bias.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

shadowsnip wrote:I mean how many democratic politicians are under some coporations payroll? Like common.

A HUGE number. And the ridiculous thing about it is brokerage houses and financial firms which the OWS people seem to hate so much give most of their money to democrats.

No I agree with you completely, I should have worded it "Democrats are under corporations payrolls as well"

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
And sorry to get even more off topic but I can't stand the whole notion of the 99% vs. the 1%. It's more like the 49% that take money out of the system vs. the 51% that put money in. I'm not wealthy but I work and I pay taxes a not insignificant amount of taxes and if you make me pick sides between billionaires who also work and pay taxes and unproductive leaches who drag the system down I'll throw my towel in with the billionaires every time.

Yes there are leaches in the lower class. Crack heads that use welfare for their habits is an example. But at the same time our country's wealth is in disarray due to the middle and lower class not having jobs and that there is barely any manufacturing going on in this country (and a boat load of other reasons).

You say throw your towel in with the billionares, do you mean that you think billionaires are more productive than the average citizen? (yeah thats true, its very true) Or do you mean you'd rather tax the poor than the rich? (You'll never convince me this is the right thing to do)

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
And it's not purely greed, its morality. A wealthy parent who chooses not to hand their child everything doesn't do it because of greed. They do it because the child needs to learn how to make their way in the world. Our nation, and from what I can tell many European nations, no longer place any importance on self-sufficiency. I would not mind paying more in taxes if they were being put to good use. But 2/3 of our national budget goes to enabling people to be dependent children of daddy government. I don’t want to support that because keeping people in a perpetual state of servitude to their government representative is not right.

If your kid is starving and freaking out because he doesn't have food, would you give you kid a little food? Guide the kid but try to map a good way of making sure he's "eating healthy" as hard is that to do (im not being sarcastic)

But why would you put more taxes on the poor? Since it is a dire situation economically and the government needs more money from taxes, why not tax the rich instead of the poor who are rioting and protesting?

I think the best way for our country to recover is to create jobs and stop outsourcing our wealth to china. But taxing the rich is a fragile system, one that could go bad if not handled correctly (I.E socialism)
You have good points though and it makes sense. I just wish someone in america knew the answers to make things better and act on them.

shadowsnip wrote:
No I agree with you completely, I should have worded it "Democrats are under corporations payrolls as well"

Sorry, I missed the sarcasm.

shadowsnip wrote:
Yes there are leaches in the lower class. Crack heads that use welfare for their habits is an example. But at the same time our country's wealth is in disarray due to the middle and lower class not having jobs and that there is barely any manufacturing going on in this country (and a boat load of other reasons).

You say throw your towel in with the billionares, do you mean that you think billionaires are more productive than the average citizen? (yeah thats true, its very true) Or do you mean you'd rather tax the poor than the rich? (You'll never convince me this is the right thing to do)

A lack of jobs is an issue, but it’s so incredibly complex and the worst thing you could do is increases taxes on wealthy people who are the single best source of job creation. They invest, they spend money, they start businesses and they move the economy. Maybe someone has morale issues with the wealthy class having so much power, but the world isn’t fair. No system has ever been able to change that, they have just changed who is wealthy and how easily one can become a member of that class. Our system makes by far much easier to enter (and leave) that class than any in history, which is as good as anyone could realistically ask for.

I do think the wealthy are more productive. And I don’t think that the poor should pay more in taxes than the wealthy, but they pay no taxes at all right now. They generally get money for free. What are we supposed to do, take more money from the productive people to just give to the unproductive people? That only rewards sloth, underachievement, and bad behavior. I think a low flat tax does a good job of encouraging success instead of our current system that rewards failure. At the very least get rid of refundable tax credits so even if someone doesn’t pay in they can’t outright drain the system.

shadowsnip wrote:
If your kid is starving and freaking out because he doesn't have food, would you give you kid a little food? Guide the kid but try to map a good way of making sure he's "eating healthy" as hard is that to do (im not being sarcastic)

But why would you put more taxes on the poor? Since it is a dire situation economically and the government needs more money from taxes, why not tax the rich instead of the poor who are rioting and protesting?

I think the best way for our country to recover is to create jobs and stop outsourcing our wealth to china. But taxing the rich is a fragile system, one that could go bad if not handled correctly (I.E socialism)

I would help my child, when they are a child. I’ve let my adult brother in law be homeless over giving him money unconditionally (because he wasn’t willing to accept my very simple conditions).

And again, no one, not even the most conservative people (and I’m as conservative as you can get) is for taxing the poor to point where they will be poor forever. The conservative platform is about class mobility. We want the class structure to be fluid. You move up and down as you make good decisions and compete well in a free marketplace. But the welfare state creates a culture and mindset where the lower class loses desire to compete in the market. With their basic needs provided for they feel very little pressure to ever leave the lower class. And they are constantly fed propaganda by the pseudo and full blown socialists that the only way they can survive is through government intervention which robs them of their dignity and motivation to achieve.

shadowsnip wrote:
You have good points though and it makes sense. I just wish someone in america knew the answers to make things better and act on them.

I’m in America :0P.

But seriously this has been one of the more respectful political discussions I’ve had on Dakka. Nice to know not everything has to turn into a personal war.

Back on topic…

Again, stop it with the OT, there's a thread in the OT forum for this stuff, post about it there!

The OT forum is full of trolls. I avoid it like the plague.

Armless Failure wrote:

Eisenhorn wrote:Lets see how about how every conservative is demonized
But the media never asked one follow up question to Obama about Bill Aires who is a convicted terrorist who helped him when he worked for Acorn and when he was running the first time
O answered that Bill is just a guy from the neighborhood when it is proven by records they had many dealings
Or that he went to a church for 20 years that constantly blasts America,the Rev Jerimia Wright even said about 9/11 Americas chickens have come home to roost,but Obama got a pass on that too
If you look at all the media moguls with the exception of Murdock, they all contribute heavily to the socialists, erm sorry I ment democrat

I'm really sorry that the truth has a liberal bias.

How is only investgating one side and not the other truth
The only thing you have right with that sentence is the word bias
Why is all the major changes that is in Obamacare do not happen until 2013
Could it be he would never ever be reelected if the general public knew what was coming
When the Govt controls health care they then control you
I hope you like big brother telling you what you can and cannot eat

Eisenhorn wrote:I hope you like big brother telling you what you can and cannot eat

And watch out for those 'death panels'.

Eisenhorn wrote:
When the Govt controls health care they then control you

Yeah, just look at Great Britain, there's no WAY that people would riot there, because the goverment controls health care and as such can preve... oh wait, never mind.

Yeah sure the NHS controls us, that is why we are a land of fat, alcoholics, smokers who national dish is Chicken Tikka Massala or Fist & Chips both are so full of grease you can make wood see through.

You like most NHS hating Americans are just jealous, that when I get into a car crash, the hospital doesn't take the contents of my wallet, max my cards and take my car.

Now onto the reason I joined.

The Black Templars are not based solely on the Knights Teutonic.

They do not wear the Iron Cross.

They wear the Maltese Cross. The Maltese Cross is the Knights Hospitaller, or the Knights of Malta, Knights of St. John.

Knights Hospitaller are the White Cross on mainly black. Teutonic are mostly white with a black cross.

The Black Templars are pretty much all of the big 3 Knightly Orders. Templars, Hospitallers and Teutonics.

I've got rightist tendencies but I had those long before I started playing 40k. Anyway, journalism sucks, whats new?

To give another example I particularly enjoy, when I lived in Australia during the Virginia Tech massacre the very first thing the media over there did was harp on about gun laws in the US without even a thought for those who were killed in the massacre or any of the underlying causes. Straight to the simplest and easiest cause that will sell the most.

Xanrn wrote:...

You like most NHS hating Americans are just jealous, that when I get into a car crash, the hospital doesn't take the contents of my wallet, max my cards and take my car.
...

You mean the car that crashed? It wasn't very useful anyway.

About the article, It was kinda funny -even if it was just because it was so far off.- Although I don't see what people not playing football has to do with any thing, alot of people don't actually PLAY foot ball and even so its not that great any way.

Most of them started off as fans of science or heroic fiction, mythology, history and comic books. Many of them have read the low literary value novels based on the game's fluff, for which 30 year old Thanos said: "If I had a child, I wouldn't let him read these novels before he develops his character". We can summarize the profile of the average 40K player as follows: a rather "introvert", lonely guy that doesn't like to go out, doesn't like to watch the TV or football(!), but he likes listening to music (foreign, and mainly classic rock) and he prefers when going out to talk with friends in cafes or houses. Many of them claimed that they "believe in God", whom they defined as the "beginning" of everything or "the power" of the universe etc. but they don't like his "fan club". Couple of them claimed to be pronounced atheists.

LOL.

Who cares what the greeks think. Apparently they think we're all racist neo-nazi facists or something.

This reporter is just a gak head too. He's probably some filthy grease-back, linguini eating plumber who can't tell his arse from his elbow

Well, like anything else, WH40k can be seen as a good thing or a not so good thing. It should be kept in mind that it is loosely based in real history. The whole setting is like early middle-ages where a technologically and morally depressed empire is trying to discover information from the golden ages (DAoT and Antiquity) The empire is constantly struggling with enemies threatening it from all sides (as the Roman Empire was during its crumbling) and trying to prevent "heresy" from spreading in the realm. There are also sooo many more references to different eras in history which can be seen in all of the races, like 17th-century-like infantry, ancient Egyptian references and many more. The setting is chaotic and dark because history is chaotic and dark.

Sure, if you look it from the right angle you can also see the "satanic" and "corrupted" stuff, like the ultra violent religious system, wasting millions of lives for a piece of trash from the Dark Age of Technology or soulless monsters bent on consuming all life. To an outsider this may seem rather chaotic and shocking. But that is only the tip of the iceberg. Under the water there are a lot of interesting and imaginative details and a well thought out story, instead of just a barbaric and mindless universe full of violence and war as an outsider might see it on the first glance.

I bet no one is worshipping the Emperor or the Dark Gods in real life or hatching dark and violent thoughts in his head. Even if one does, the guilt cannot be entirely placed on a fictional game's shoulders. Sure it can advance that kind of things, but it does not turn people into screaming, violent fanatics. It is easy to blame the game for the mistakes of players. (No pun intended)

And the whole Nazi argument is just silly. Yes, there are some pretty bizarre people around, but hey, it is just a game for crying out loud. My gaming group includes two black persons and one asian. No one ever looks them funny or treats them in ways which could be seen as racism. Besides the most racist place is the Imperium, if you do not like "racism" you can always choose one of the more tolerant races. In my opinion, playing a game is hardly being a racist. I would inderstand if there were swastikas and people yelling "death to the ni ers!"

As the writer insightfully notes, some people playing the game are rather socially awkward and "nerdy". But so what? I have met more disturbing people in the mall than playing a wargame. As I said earlier, there are all kinds of people playing wargames and the writer was clearly biased in my opinion.

Who ever wrote the huge rant about 40k, needs to take a valium. Problem solved.

Warhammer belongs to the unlucky group of computer games, FRP, etc. Don't expect any newspaper to write anything nice or true about them because it wouldn't sell.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I bet no one is worshipping the Emperor...

Well, I still have my doubts about Brother Coa.

Cyrax wrote:Warhammer belongs to the unlucky group of computer games, FRP, etc. Don't expect any newspaper to write anything nice or true about them because it wouldn't sell.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I bet no one is worshipping the Emperor...

Well, I still have my doubts about Brother Coa.

Yeah he usually visits the Basilica with me on sunda- Never mind.