They almost never seem to be capable in dealing with some what small scale problems on their own with out the help of the Imperial Guard, and like why is it their always trying rebell against their governors, just my thought.

*Edit* Wez gotz a new meme!

Because fluff writers don't want to write about them, they want to write about something represented in the miniatures range, like the Imperial Guard. But ignoring the PDF would make the story unrealistic. So the writer takes a moment to drop the obligatory "the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man" so he can move on to the Grey Knights.

It would stink if the Occupy Movement existed in the 40kverse.
"Protestors occupied the Imperial cathedral. The PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man."

Escaped kittens, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man. lol
But yes they do seem very ineffective.

Imperial Guardsmen die to make the Space Marines look cooler. PDF troops die to make the Imperial Guard look cooler.

Coolyo294 wrote:Imperial Guardsmen die to make the Space Marines look cooler. PDF troops die to make the Imperial Guard look cooler.

That seems very true, and you know what it scares me.

PDF are the redshirts of 40k books, they show you how the monster works.

xxmatt85 wrote:They almost never seem to be capable in dealing with some what small scale problems on their own with out the help of the Imperial Guard, and like why is it their always trying rebell against their governors, just my thought.

Because that is what "The Plot,tm" demanded in the story at the time? Never let a little thing like facts, established fluff or suspension of disbelief get in the way of "The Plot,tm".

Practical reason: What Coolyo said

Fluff reason: They get worse training, equipment, and leadership then the Guard. There are some good PDF's though (the Cadian Interior Guard and Ultramar Auxillia could beat most Guard Regiments, imo).

Because if they could do their job properly the space marines or whoever wouldn't get the chance to save the day and It'd be a really boring book.

Skarwael wrote:Because if they could do their job properly the space marines or whoever wouldn't get the chance to save the day and It'd be a really boring book.

This. I'm not so sure it's that the PDF are incompetent, it's more like the stuff they can handle isn't interesting enough to write about. The really exciting stuff is the stuff that only the Imperial Guard or Space marines can handle. Besides, the PDF isn't a playable army, so they're not going to be awesome. They're either gonna get saved by a playable army, or destroyed by a playable army.

Since the stories tend to revolve around the arms of the Imperial War Machine that actually take part in the game, you just don't tend to hear about the battles where they are successful.

Otherwise, the next Black Library novel release would be:

'The Ork Waaagh! Groglots attacked Bottleshop Prime, but was successfully beaten off by the Bottleshop Prime Planetary Defense Force, so the Imperial Fists stayed at home and caught up on their scrimshaw. The end.'

Just wondering, are there any books about the Adeptus Arbites? They too seem to die for the sake of the IG/SM. I know they are mentioned frequently, usually dying in some awesome, though unsuccessful, last stand.

The PDF is usuallly based on the guard regiment from their planet and its where the guard gets a lot of its recuits. And as stated above the ultramar and cadian home guard are very good. The rynn's world pdf is fairly competent and plays a big part in the defense of rynns world when the crimson fists are blown up by their own missle.

You have to also take into account that the PDF forces aren't very large and are spread out over a planet. And a lot of the time they get attacked so quickly that they don't have time to organise. And like said before it wouldn't be worth mentioning in fluff the time that a pdf force actually beat an invasion.

acekevin8412 wrote:Just wondering, are there any books about the Adeptus Arbites? They too seem to die for the sake of the IG/SM. I know they are mentioned frequently, usually dying in some awesome, though unsuccessful, last stand.

Enforcer seems like the book your asking for.

or the story would be "The PDF waited patiently for enemies to attack, since the ultramarines defeated the Ork Waagh on a different planet they had a pizza party instead, and were killed to a man"

Skarwael wrote:Because if they could do their job properly the space marines or whoever wouldn't get the chance to save the day and It'd be a really boring book.

Because it would begin with them being killed to a man

dreadfury101 wrote:or the story would be "The PDF waited patiently for enemies to attack, since the ultramarines defeated the Ork Waagh on a different planet they had a pizza party instead, and were killed to a man"

okay, this made me laugh

acekevin8412 wrote:Just wondering, are there any books about the Adeptus Arbites? They too seem to die for the sake of the IG/SM. I know they are mentioned frequently, usually dying in some awesome, though unsuccessful, last stand.

Check out the Enforcer omnibus, It has the shira calpurnia triligy in it. It's got Crossfire, Legacy and Blind that comprise the thre books, it's also got dossier's in it that give some background for the going on's in the books. I highly recomend it as it was a facinating read...except for Legacy, it is defiently the weakest of the three but still good...kinda.. >.> <.<

Execution Hour also have a cammeo by the arbites in it and one even commadeers a Imperial Battle ship, kinda cool imho. The arbites also have 'battle barge' class ships that are designed for planetary bombardment. They have their own fleets and fighters.

Many PDF actually do quite well, most of the time they can hold off rebellions and some invasions, but the reason you hear the PDF slaughtered is due to massive incursions or they are ill-equipped to fight the enemy, or etc. The other reason they die is just for plot, although the PDF are unsung heroes because they have to keep the planet in check and running like the workers at a factory, a maintinece(sp?) crew, or a supply ship because it is "more interesting" to hear about the Guard, the Navy, and the Astartes who fight in glorious crusades and stopping threats to the Imperium as a whole instead of the PDF infantry making sure his home and loved ones are safe but (mostly) stays on the same planet for his entire life.

Phantom wrote: Many PDF actually do quite poorly, most of the time they get slaughtered so completely that the SPESS MEHRENS need to bail them out, but the reason you hear the PDF slaughtered is due their stupid ineptitude

Fixed

The point is, the PDF have only ever been seen dying and there is little evidence of them winning often, so a lot of their successes are conjecture.

Not really. Obviously, worlds aren't just defended by Uncle Jed with his shotgun. The world's PDF is its first line of defense. If they last long enough for reinforcements to arrive, they've done their job. Besides...There are what...One million Space Marines (Loyalist) in the entire galaxy? Plenty of planets rebel and plenty of planets are invaded, it's just we only hear about the major or special incidents in the fluff where huge wars took place. Most of the time, the humble PDF takes care of it. That's the assumption of 40k fluff and it's not really unreasonable at all.

The pdf are the first line of defense. Its there job to either defeat the enemy, which they do most of the time. The other is to hold until releaved.

Due to plot the pdf is usually killed to the man to make the enemy tougher. Even though the pdfs might as well be ig lite.

The only battles we hear about are the ones where the PDF was insufficient to defeat the threat.


Its the same reason we never have stories about how Arbites Bob broke up a smuggling operation when he was conducting a murder investigation. Now if the smuggling operation happened to be smuggling chaos artifacts and inadvertantly released a greater deamon into Arkam hive and the daemon gave Bob his prostate exam orally then we would hear about it. But lucky for Bob he's never encountered anything beyond the odd mugging and murder in the underhive.

The PDF get slaughtered because they are a plot device. In most books, if they were competent it wouldn't give the protagonists anything to do. In reality, they're essentialy IGuard light. Probably not quite as good, and not quite as well equipped, but they're going to have a fair amount of discipline and a fair amount of tanks and heavy weapons still. After all, the Imperial Guard just consists of requisitioned PDF units. The books say they get the best, but really, who is determining what units are the best, and how much actual oversight are these planetary governors under? Most of the command structures demanding these tithes are doing so from light years away and with little to no firsthand knowledge of the unit dispositions. With all of the {Gs we read about being converted to Chaos, or wooed away by the Tau, surely them tithing only their 3rd or 4th best Divisions is relatively commonplace. I mean, nobody is going to send their scrubs for fear of repercussions when they under-perform, but at the same time, who is going to notice the difference between marginal guardsmen and better than average ones? It took the DKoK 18 years or something to achieve "victory" on Vraks. And they are supposed to be amongst the best.

xxmatt85 wrote:They almost never seem to be capable in dealing with some what small scale problems on their own with out the help of the Imperial Guard, and like why is it their always trying rebell against their governors, just my thought.

Because they are fighting unstoppable robots with guns that completely rips their skin off [ Necrons ], huge monstrous aliens who wants to OM NOM NOM everything [ Tyranids ], chaotic super humans who wants to kill everyone in a number of painful ways [ Chaos ], barbaric aliens who are made for FIGHTEN AND WINNIN' [ Orks ], mysterious spehss elves who don't give a gak about anyone else [ Eldar ], spehss elves who wants to torture them with the worst form of BDSM [ Dark Eldar ], and anime fan space communists with guns that can blow them away before they can even see them [ Tau ] with little more than a flashlight, reinforced t-shirt, standard-issue chesthair, and steel balls.

Or to be serious, because they are the normal Human fighting things that are big like Elephant and with a strength of 1km Asteroid hitting Earth. They are not capable to fight? I mean, how are you NOT supposed to suck against things that will slice through meter thick steel armor like so much cheese?

And they rebel agaisnt their Governours because great number of them are rich brats who don't give 2 for their people.

I think one of the reasons PDF do so badly, besides worse training and equipnent, is that anyone who is halfway decent probably got shipped out to the Guard.

This PDF guy's don't seem incompetent:





These guys are PDF special forces.

In the end it all depends on the world in qustion.

For example: some totally random colony that is attacked once every 4 - 4000 years would have decently equiped and minimal trained PDF, on the other hand Ultramar planet would have hardcore PDF troopers.

yeah im trying to make a PDF force atm and i think the main goal for me is to keep in with the fluff is lose every match and then declare that the astartes have arive and finnish them off with minimal casualties

PDF are not really incompetent. In fact they actually are pretty good if you think about it. Yes they die a lot, but their main purpose is to maintain peace on their planet and in the event one of the big nasites of the universe attack they are to hold the line until reinforcements come. Oh, by the way, most reinforcements take at least a year to get there, warpspace travel and all, so if the PDF holds out that long, that's pretty impressive.

Think about it this way, most planets will only be attacked by a big nasty every couple of hundred years perhaps more, simply because there are just so many planets. The PDF on these planets will be putting down the odd rebellion and in general acting a lot like our current day armies. Now think for a minute that if the imperial tithe takes the top 10% of a planets PDF each year, that means that the other 90% sticks around. Further those soldiers are spread out across the whole planet, already hunkered in and have the home ground advantage. They then manage to hold off things that require super humans to defeat for the time it takes for those super humans to get there. Of course, fighting for their own home also counts for a lot.

With regard to books, there is a Cain book where he leads an army made entirely of PDF and civilians against an ork Waaagh. They can be made for interesting stories. However, most writers prefer to write about their own favorite faction. So, unfortunately the PDF have to take a back seat to the books heroes.

Lastly with regards to them turning to chaos, PDF would be influence by the popular cultures of the planet. So if the civilians fell to chaos, inevitably the PDF would also be turned. Also in such cases the corruption is very slow and takes a long time to slowly turn everyone. As for attacking planetary governors, each planet in the imperium is essentially independent, that does not mean that each planet is politically stable. The PDF would handle all normal inner planet military matters even if there are two factions fighting against each other. The imperium does not care as long as all exports and tithes are met. Similarly, the Imperium does not really care who is governor as long as again the tithes and exports are met. As such, PDF can have an insurrection, and probably do, without the imperium as a whole really noticing.

Anyone else noticed that traitor or rebel PDF forces usually massacre the Imperial guard? Like in the Voystroyan novel.
"We are the most elite Guard regiment in the galaxy.... But we are getting our modified arses handed to us by rebel PDF whose planet has been stuck in an iceage and who have never fought someone else then us. And we are the elite "

Space Crusader wrote:Anyone else noticed that traitor or rebel PDF forces usually massacre the Imperial guard? Like in the Voystroyan novel.
"We are the most elite Guard regiment in the galaxy.... But we are getting our modified arses handed to us by rebel PDF whose planet has been stuck in an iceage and who have never fought someone else then us. And we are the elite "

Maybe because Guard Regiment count from 3.000 - 300.000 men and PDF are larger + they have defense stations that Guard must seize.

The PDF on that world did not have any siege defences. They had old tech since the Imperium abandoned them.

You seem to be forgetting that the Vostroyans had more important enemies to worry about, like the Orks.

A bleeding PDF that has old equipment. The PDF are usually the most bleeding incompetent men in the armed forces of the Imperium.

Well if Siege Of Vraks has told us PDF can be a brutal force in defence of thier planet when they turn renegade.

It took them 17 years to finally beat them and that was only because of exterminatus

Mind you they did get help from chaos legions....

If GW writers had any sense of scale then they would know that problems that overwhelm an entire planet's worth of PDF ( assuming that even a normal civilised world ( perhaps 1-10 billion people? ) can easily exceed 100million+ PDF soldiers if we consider mandatory conscription ) cannot be solved by a few dozen Guard regiments.

They do make models for PDF, they are the exact same as IG as far as basic weapons and armor. Expect less heavy weapons and less tanks. If you want one, just run really big platoons and be sure to include conscripts.

Depends a lot on training. A PDF formed entirely out of trained veterans would fare much better than a PDF formed out of a bazillion rookies. Then again, a bazillion rookies are still a bazillion guns.

Belexar wrote:Depends a lot on training. A PDF formed entirely out of trained veterans would fare much better than a PDF formed out of a bazillion rookies. Then again, a bazillion rookies are still a bazillion guns.

Oh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit!!!

Horde can be very dangerous unless you have the right means.

Mal the Wolf wrote:Escaped kittens, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man. lol
But yes they do seem very ineffective.

Overgrowth of dandelions, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

CrashCanuck wrote:

Mal the Wolf wrote:Escaped kittens, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man. lol
But yes they do seem very ineffective.

Overgrowth of dandelions, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

Large dust bunnies in the barracks, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

A new meme was born in the Dakka Dakka forums, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

Also, post nomber 666! Woot!

Belexar wrote:A new meme was born in the Dakka Dakka forums, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

Yeah I kind of help started a meme or somthing.

xxmatt85 wrote:Yeah I kind of help started a meme or somthing,

the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

...I'm amazed you didn't write that in!

People were joking about the incompetence of the PDF.



The PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

The PDF tried to respond to the PDF already responding, but were killed to a man.

There was a rash of un-returned library books in the underhive, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

Skyrim released in the hive, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man. By dragons.

Oh, I thought it'd be the rabid gamers trambling them to death like they did that poor walmart worker a few years back.

It was taco night in the hive, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

Twillight was released in Primary Hive. Large groups of teen girls stormed the shops. The PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

Live ammunition was issued to the PDF.......and they were killed to a man.

The PDF were issued flashlights for training. It went overboard and they were killed to a man.

A mandatory shaving edict was issued to the PDF...and they were killed to a man...before breakfast chow.

The Ugenokers PDF found a Cadian mag showing hard faced cadian women strip... And they were killed to a man.

News Flash

The PDF was found to be incompetant, the PDF responded and were killed to a man.

The PDF tried to respond to this thread, but were killed to a man.

And then the Space Marines responded and cleared up the situation with no casualities, but Brother Bob suffered a scratched paint job to his left shinguard when he kicked one of the dead PDF troopers.

I texted the PDF about this thread, they tried to respond, but were killed to a man.

Tyranid Hive Fleed set course to feed upon the Tau Empire...the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

Someone played a metal album in their house, the PDF tried to respond but were killed to a man.

The PDF tried to make me shut the hell up, they were killed to a man.

The PDF witnessed the birth of a new meme, but they were killed to a man.

*EDIT*

Dammit already was said!

Someone stole Andilus' phrase, they tried to respond, but were killed to a man.

Brother Coa wrote:Tyranid Hive Fleed set course to feed upon the Tau Empire...the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

This is actually quite reslistic. Also...



Here you can make yours!

Belexar wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Tyranid Hive Fleed set course to feed upon the Tau Empire...the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

This is actually quite reslistic. Also...



Here you can make yours!

You sir are the greatest, but that means I'm the greatest as well.

Tee-hee!

Automatically Appended Next Post:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dammit, spelling mistake... oh well:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

This meme will be the greatest event since, air .

xxmatt85 wrote:This meme will be the greatest event since, air .

Since the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT. Speaking of which, someone's going to have to work that one in...

Added one of my own in the gallery, search humor, pdf, meme to view .

Did you ever see the move First Blood?

One guy (Marbo) shot up a whole town and took on both the national Guard (PDF) and cops (arbites).

The PDF aren't stoppin a full scale planetary assault or alien invasion...

First Blood is awesome. Also, someone's gotta work Marbo into this now

What is this monster I have created? I should never had made that joke about the PDF responding to the occupy movement.

(CuddlySquig hides under his desk. PDF tried to respond but were killed to a man)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Where did this meme come from?

I like it!

Someone tried to incorperate Marbo into a Meme, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man.

Manchu wrote:Where did this meme come from?

I like it!

Read the thread, it starts early. Lucky me, I was present for the birth of this and CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT.

I love this meme. I'm gonna make one!!! Lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I shall tell tales of this day(check sig) like this one:

I had dust bunnies under my bed, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man

Just slip this in before a mod closes this thread

Were still doing this?

Fido asked a question, the PDF tried to respond but were killed to a man.

POSTS CONSISTING OF JUST (or predominently) AN IMAGE MACRO IN LIEU OF ACTUAL CONTENT ARE CONSIDERED SPAM ON THIS FORUM. -Mannahnin

POSTS CONSISTING OF JUST (or predominently) AN IMAGE MACRO IN LIEU OF ACTUAL CONTENT ARE CONSIDERED SPAM ON THIS FORUM. -Mannahnin

POSTS CONSISTING OF JUST (or predominently) AN IMAGE MACRO IN LIEU OF ACTUAL CONTENT ARE CONSIDERED SPAM ON THIS FORUM. -Mannahnin

POSTS CONSISTING OF JUST (or predominently) AN IMAGE MACRO IN LIEU OF ACTUAL CONTENT ARE CONSIDERED SPAM ON THIS FORUM. -Mannahnin

acekevin8412 wrote:Just wondering, are there any books about the Adeptus Arbites? They too seem to die for the sake of the IG/SM. I know they are mentioned frequently, usually dying in some awesome, though unsuccessful, last stand.

Crossfire was pretty good IMO...and the PDF were killed to a man IIRC...

POSTS CONSISTING OF JUST (or predominently) AN IMAGE MACRO IN LIEU OF ACTUAL CONTENT ARE CONSIDERED SPAM ON THIS FORUM. -Mannahnin

I was trying to figure out how to get this meme to work in other threads, and I think this would be a good "bump" one.

Well...as far as books and plot go, I just got done reading Dead Men Walking and the PDF in that book weren't that incompetent. I think they held up rather well considering their world turned out to be a Necron tomb world.

That wasnt PDF. Those were militia. Hell, when the necron flayers came the PDF tried to respond but were killed to a man.

Space Crusader wrote:That wasnt PDF. Those were militia. Hell, when the necron flayers came the PDF tried to respond but were killed to a man.

PDFs everywhere contain militia...when the time is right. In "Dead Men Walking" the PDF was supplemented by militias raised after the Death Korps arrived in theater and took command.

The PDF of most worlds does fine against small-scale insurgencies, rebellions, and revolts. They also fare okay against isolated instances of Xenos incursions. It's only when we see things like Tyranid invasions, full-scale Chaos fueled insurgencies or Ork Waaghs that they're very seriously outclassed. When that happens, the PDF's sole purpose is to keep things tied up until the Imperial Guard and Astartes arrive. In the case of Chaos insurgencies, we'll also see any survivors of the PDF go "underground" as part of their requirements is the same as the Arbites: organize and maintain a pro-Throne resistance until the world is liberated and returned to the fold of the Imperium.

Yes, Kanluwen is right.

It's not an exact comparison, but think about it this way-- the PDF is like a state national guard in the US prior to 9/01/2001. A militia raised by the state, which can be called to act by the state's governor, or called up to serve in active duty as part of the national military force (in the case of the US, the US Army).

A PDF called upon to serve in the Imperial Guard is probably closer to the national guard after 9/01/2001 though.

The PDF were successful.

They killed a man.

Wanna-be funnymen think they created a meme.

They were killed to a man, for posting nothing useful to a thread.

Personally though, I like PDFs. I'm trying to figure out a 'best fit' for a PDF "Pathfinder" unit in the Imperial Guard. So far, it's the Hardened Veterans of all things.

Kanluwen wrote:Wanna-be funnymen think they created a meme.

They were killed to a man, for posting nothing useful to a thread.

Good one.

Personally though, I like PDFs. I'm trying to figure out a 'best fit' for a PDF "Pathfinder" unit in the Imperial Guard. So far, it's the Hardened Veterans of all things.

From FFG:

This PDF guy's don't seem incompetent:





These guys are PDF special forces.

PDF quality greatly depends on the world they are originated from.

They are excellent against rebellion and minor incursions ( like raids or random Ork attacks ).

They are not fit to deal with HUEG invasions like Ork WARGHHH or Chaos Black Crusade.

And of course they are worst then the Guard, Guard have better support form Munitorium and better gear to wield. Not to mention that the best of PDF troopers are diverted to the Imperial Guard.

xxmatt85 wrote:They almost never seem to be capable in dealing with some what small scale problems on their own with out the help of the Imperial Guard, and like why is it their always trying rebell against their governors, just my thought.

*Edit* Wez gotz a new meme!

The PDF is like a cop
Walking the beat; he pretty good most days, writes the packing tickets, maybe chances down some hooligan kids. But when the terrorist from "Die Hard" show up, Barney Fife and his no-bullet gun policy just isn't up to the task.

There have been instances where the PDF give one hell of a fight.

Mordian PDF held the planet against a chaos invasion.
Krieg PDF (or a regiment of) held a city during the five hundred years of atomic revolution.
Tallarn natives fought against Horus-aligned badasses during the heresy.

I think the PDF being wiped out is solely based on their training. Granted they might get tanks, carapace armor, and hellguns. But if they don't know proper firing drills, how to follow orders, or are just plain neglected, they can't fight off anything. In fact, most of the times that the PDF DO have their gak together they beat the snot out of whomever their fighting. The instances where the PDF are commanded by some Trade-Lord and stand more on looking pretty than actually policing their planet is when they 'die to a man'.

Now, I don't know about you, but dying to a man in the defense of my world, my family, and everything I know and love? I'd be hard pressed to see that as anything short of bravery, pointless and short-lived, but bravery nonetheless.

darn mods, deleting all our funnies.....

not fair i tells ye!

CuddlySquig wrote:

Phantom wrote: Many PDF actually do quite poorly, most of the time they get slaughtered so completely that the SPESS MEHRENS need to bail them out, but the reason you hear the PDF slaughtered is due their stupid ineptitude

Fixed

The point is, the PDF have only ever been seen dying and there is little evidence of them winning often, so a lot of their successes are conjecture.

I disagree. PDF are certainly not the elite fighting forces of the IoM, but they aren't entirely useless. Look at what we know:
1. The IoM is beset on all sides by enemies, and span a million worlds
2. There are not enough space marines to garrison all these worlds, so instead they act as crisis management teams, responding to the most desperate of the fighting.
3. Often, the guard are called in before or in lieu of the space marines, either because the fighting doesn't seem to warrant the deployment of the super elite, or because they are more readily available.
4. However, in spite of all the billions of guardsmen there are, there aren't enough to garrison all the planets either. What's more, there are massive logistical delays in getting them to respond to a breaking crisis, from interstellar transportation time to communication delays in directing the various regiments, to having to raise entirely new regiments in special tithes to respond to a conflict.
5. Based on this, the pdf, who hold the responsibility of maintaining order and a first line of defense, have to hold off the horrors of the galaxy or planetary revolutions without outside help for years at a time. If memory serves me right, the IG codex lists one incident where help arrived a century after it was requested.
6. All of this seems to reinforce the idea that the pdf are useless. The point thats missing is that the IoM still exists. In spite of the fact that the elite and super elite forces of the imperium are unable to be everywhere at once to respond to the variety of threats that face the imperium and the logistical nightmares in managing an empire of its size, the IoM has not been hemorrhaging worlds until reduced to a more manageable size. Logically, then, the pdf must be effective in the vast majority of cases at not only delaying the enemy but actually achieving victory.

I think the reason we are constantly blasted by examples of their impotence is, as others have hinted at, that we are only reading about extreme cases. We are looking at an empire that is almost inconceivably large, over a millennium, so its not surprising that there are so many stories where the crisis is so dire that the pdf are overwhelmed and the elites or superelites are called upon.

This being said, I think this "killed to a man" gag is hilarious and wish so many of the images hadnt been censored. Ah well, rules are rules.

PDF aren't "useless" but they can't handle anything above a minor raid or revolt. Really they're only full-scale thing they could deal with is a rebellion, in which case they'd probably all defect anyway as the soldiers are drawn from the disgruntled planetary population. Also I imagine the sight of any kind of Xenos will send them screaming.

The PDF's of "famous" Imperial worlds known for their quality guard regiments: Cadia, Catachan, Vostroya, Mordia, Elysia, Valhalla, Tallarn, Armageddon; are quite good and probably on the level of most guard regiments. This is certainly the case at least with the Cadian Interior Guard. Howwever these are just a small handful of worlds and indeed for one reason or another these worlds are the fighting elite of the Imperium. Most PDF's aren't like the one on Mordia, not even close.

PDF aren't that well equipped to deal with xenos attacks. I think the main difference is experience. Imperial Guard have fought across countless worlds. Same for space marines. They have faced all sorts of xenos and aren't surprised by what they see anymore. They also are more familiar with the capabilities of the various xenos races.

PDF is always on the same planet. The last xenos attack could have been centuries ago. Likely the current generation of PDF have never faced a Xenos attack, much less a chaos attack. So, the first time they see a Carnafex tear up a battle tank, or a Chaos Defiler , they will go all to pieces. Heck, even a gene stealer would probably scare the living daylights out of them. And they won't know how to fight those xenos either. They would probably aim everything they have on the said Carnefix (if they didn't run), and then get killed up the gene stealers that burrowed up behind them.

I don't understand how this argument has spanned out so long...

The PDF are not a centrally-organised/trained body, they aren't a 'force of the Imperium' in this respect; you can't tar them all with the same brush.

Quality is going to vary massively because the PDF rely on their homeworlds to equip/train them. So it all falls to the wealth of the world, its own capabilities and just how 'bothered' its leadership is. It's like trying to say 'the human military sucks in the 21st century' because the Kenyan Army is nowhere near as 'good' as that of the US.

Thus the PDF can be just as good as Guard regiments (Cadian, Ultramar, these have already been mentioned...) or abysmally poor.