K. 5 gk termies wound nobz 6 times.

Do I attribute 2 per nob and then roll for auto kills resulting in 3 wounds

5 GKs with NFWs attack 3 Nobz.

5 GKs all hit with 1 attack.

1 Psychic test is taken.

All 3 Nobz die with 2 ID hits left over.

I think the main part that has you confused is that NFWs aren't normal FWs. ALL the wounds caused by NFWs deal ID after a successful psychic test, while normal FWs only deal ID on ONE caused wound after a successfull psychic test. In your example, assuming that the Nobz are diversified, you would assign two wounds to each wound group and then roll for ID. If this succeeds, every wound causes ID, meaning all the Nobz are dead with three "leftover" ID wounds.

Ok if I have 10 nobz
He hits 10times
Wounds 5
I attribute the wounds as normal aka 2 jobs get 2 1 gets 1.
If he rolls his test do I lose 5 or 3
Aka if a model has 2 Id wounds do the extra ones carry on to another model

If you had ten nobs and five instant death dealing wounds, regardless of their configuration, five die. You can't allocate two wounds to one model until every model has taken a wound. As far as wound carryover... I'm not sure what you are getting at, refer to my first point.

Docbrow - youre missing a step out there.

You distribute wounds as equally as possible, so 5 nobs receive 5 wounds.

You then group the wounds into groups of like models, so assuming all nobs are different that is 5 wound groups.

Each wound causes instant death, so assuming you fail / dont have Cybrok 5 nobs die.

If all nobs are identical then 5 STILL die, as you are required to remove whole models first.

Ok so if their id wounds I distribute them as though the models have 1 wound.

docbrown wrote:Ok so if their id wounds I distribute them as though the models have 1 wound.

No. You always allocate a single wound to a model. You can't allocate multiple wounds until everyone in the unit has a wound allocated to them. You then break down the unit into groups of models with like equipment and roll saves/suffer wound in those groups.

IE in a group 10 nobz you can't allocate two wounds to a model until all ten have been allocated a wound.

It might be easier to write down an example of how to do this. Say you have 5 nobz equipped as follows:

1) Powerklaw
2) Big Choppa
3) Big Choppa
4) Schmuck
5) Schmuck

The squad suffers say......5 wounds, two of them cause instant death (don't know how this would happen, just roll with it). Maybe allocate them as follows:

1) Wound
2) Wound
3) Wound
4) ID wound
5) ID wound

Now you roll saves in groups of like models......you have 3 groups here (1, 2/ 3, and 4/5).

So:

1) would roll a save and if he fails he takes one wound.
2/3) would roll two saves if they fail all the wounds go on one model
4/5) would roll two saves and for fail one nob is killed

If you fail all 5 saves:

1) Takes one wound
2/3) One of them takes two wounds and dies
4/5) Both of these die

docbrown wrote:Ok so if their id wounds I distribute them as though the models have 1 wound.

you distribute wounds to models. Once each model has one wound assigned to it, you can assign the models another wounds, regardless of how many wounds those models have.

Say you have to distribute 11 wounds onto 5 models, each model would be assigned wounds evenly so you have to assign each model one wound before assigning a second wound to any given model. After you assign a second wound to each model, where each model now has two wounds, you have to assign the last wound, and this can go wherever you want.

Then you roll saves, and remove casualties.

for the nemisis force weapon example you would just remove all 5 models, since they can not take an armor save and they are all ID wounds, the last 6 wounds you assigned essentially do nothing because the first wound will ID each model.

DeathReaper wrote:For the nemisis force weapon example you would just remove all 5 models, since they can not take an armor save and they are all ID wounds, the last 6 wounds you assigned essentially do nothing because the first wound will ID each model.

Unless they are cyborks, then saves come into play.

then whats the point of diversifying orks to gain wound shenanigans?
what are wound shenanigans?

the point is this with the 2 wound orks.

If 5 nobs have different gear, they are each their own wound group. So if you take 5 unsaved wounds they are all different wound groups, so you do not loose any nobs.

With 5 identical nobs if you take 5 unsaved wounds, they are all the same wound group so you loose 2 nobs and one nob has one wound left.

docbrown wrote:then whats the point of diversifying orks to gain wound shenanigans?
what are wound shenanigans?

Diversifying works against non-ID weapons.

5 Nobz each with different equipment. You take 5 normal wounds.

Allocate as follows
1) One wounds
2) One wound
3) One wound
4) One wound
5) One wound

You fail all of them.

Each Nob takes a single wound....nothing dies.

If they were all identically equipped two nobz would die and one more would take a wound.


IE - 0 dead vs 2 dead




But with force weapons it doesn't matter as they cause ID. Basically ID weapons are a way to ignore allocation shenanigans on multi-wound models.

Basically, Diversification only works against non-ID wounds.

ID completely negates any diversification advantages. Its the price you have to pay, every unit has at least one hard counter somewhere. for Diversified nobs its missile launcher spam and GKs.

diversification? i thought it states under the multi wound models page that if taking wounds on a model that has more then one wound, it must take its max amount till death.

so in the situation where you have 3 wounds on 5 nobs 1 will die with 2 wounds and another gets 1 wound...if being hit by NFW you roll to activate the Whole squad weapons once, if passed ID kicks in and 3 wounds becomes 3 dead nobs rather then just 1 1/2.

in short you cant take 3 wounds across 3 multi wound models to keep as many alive for as long as possible

Pg26 right column 4th paragraph down

this dosen't go for units that have differing models with some multi wound and some single, however you have to allocate wounds before armor Sv

Thats true, if it isn't unique.


You have to combine the multi-wound model rules with the wound allocation rules to get the full gist of diversification.

DK wrote:diversification? i thought it states under the multi wound models page that if taking wounds on a model that has more then one wound, it must take its max amount till death.

so in the situation where you have 3 wounds on 5 nobs 1 will die with 2 wounds and another gets 1 wound...if being hit by NFW you roll to activate the Whole squad weapons once, if passed ID kicks in and 3 wounds becomes 3 dead nobs rather then just 1 1/2.

in short you cant take 3 wounds across 3 multi wound models to keep as many alive for as long as possible

The above is only true for identically equipped models. If the models all have different equipment, then 3 nobz would take one wound each (as you would roll for saves in groups of identically equipped models).

DK - read the complex unit rules, along with the multiple wound rules, and see what happens when you have uniquely equpped multiple wound models in a unit

nosferatu1001 wrote:DK - read the complex unit rules, along with the multiple wound rules, and see what happens when you have uniquely equpped multiple wound models in a unit

complex unit rules? are we reading the same rulebook?

pg 26 under multi wound models says that you have to allocate wounds to each group, as is 5 models with the same weapon and 2 with special weapons. if you take 5 normal wounds you can clam 4 vs reg units and 1 vs special weapons, but you still have to allocate the max # of wounds to a model till its dead for its group.

you cannot "spread" out wounds to keep them alive...this will get you disqualified if you try to pull that in a tournament.

DK wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:DK - read the complex unit rules, along with the multiple wound rules, and see what happens when you have uniquely equpped multiple wound models in a unit

complex unit rules? are we reading the same rulebook?

pg 26 under multi wound models says that you have to allocate wounds to each group, as is 5 models with the same weapon and 2 with special weapons. if you take 5 normal wounds you can clam 4 vs reg units and 1 vs special weapons, but you still have to allocate the max # of wounds to a model till its dead for its group.

you cannot "spread" out wounds to keep them alive...this will get you disqualified if you try to pull that in a tournament.

Yes, complex unit rules. Page 25.

If you have 7 nobs armed differently, you have a complex unit with 7 wound groups. Assuming you take 8 wounds, each nob has to roll one save, and one nob rolls 2 saves. If you fail every single save, you lose one nob. In a non-complex unit unit, you'd lose 3 nobs and one would have a wound.

You can absolutely spread wounds out *if the unit in question is a complex unit*.

DK wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:DK - read the complex unit rules, along with the multiple wound rules, and see what happens when you have uniquely equpped multiple wound models in a unit

complex unit rules? are we reading the same rulebook?

pg 26 under multi wound models says that you have to allocate wounds to each group, as is 5 models with the same weapon and 2 with special weapons. if you take 5 normal wounds you can clam 4 vs reg units and 1 vs special weapons, but you still have to allocate the max # of wounds to a model till its dead for its group.

you cannot "spread" out wounds to keep them alive...this will get you disqualified if you try to pull that in a tournament.

Uhmmmm, aside the fact that you are breaking the forum rules about posting copy-right material........you do realize that exact quote you put up there does actually include the the following : "...group of identical multiple-wound models..." as well as the "...multiple-wound models that are unique..."



Soooo you pretty much just quoted exactly what we've been telling you.

your not reading this right, this is a rule on the bases that you have more then one group of different units, like the exp they give is the devastator squad with different weapons.

that said this in no way covers multi wounds, your inserting made up rules to cover a gap you see, the exp given, the wounds are spread out on the coverage of before saving throws are made. which means if you have a 10 man team and somehow have a model that has 4 wounds and the rest have 1, if you put one wound on the 4 wound model, you have to place a minimum of 4 on it, then roll for saves, if he makes a save and takes 3 wound you dont have to place more on him...but if you call or email GW customer serves they will tell you that you have to place the min # of wounds to kill it, in the terms of a complex unit you just throw your saves after allocation rather then before.

again, multi wound models you CANNOT spread out wounds, if you have a squad of (making this up) 100 models with 2 wounds each, and take 100 wounds, you cannot in any way, place 1 wound on each model, you still have to spend 2 per since they have 2 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mybad about the post part of the book...but for last part of this...there explaining that:
once unit takes X number of wounds you:
identify if you have a complex unit or not:
assign wounds to groups or across the unit if complex, then roll for sv

if you dont think this is right, call CS at GW and ask. i did about 20mins ago and this is what they said.

Actually you aren't reading the section right. No one is making up rules. Further, calling or emailing GW holds absolutely no merit other than wasting your own personal time; five emails will net five different answers.

Re-read the section carefully. If you have 10 models, each of them identical, with 2 wounds each and you take 5 wounds two must die with a single wound left allocated on a single model.

If every model is differently equipped you would have 10 different wound groupings. You roll for saves on each wound grouping individually. You *CANNOT* roll all saves at the same time as the models are not in the same grouping. This is a complex unit. In order to put a second wound on any model in said unit, there *must* be a wound on every model in the unit. When you hear the term "wound cheese" this is what is being referred to. It is a perfectly legal tactic and is firmly outlined in the rules.

I'm not sure how clearer this can be explained.

Cheers

wow, yes call them, because your using the rules stated for 1 wound models as the i.e. then states what multi wound models rules are.

if you read multi wound rules it leaves them as a separate group, so again, you break you wounds up into vs 1 wound models and vs multi wound models, then roll for sv unless you have the group with multi also complex then you must assign before saves.

again, call them, i have ran into this and was blind sided because i didnt know, we needed an official in a tournament in Atlanta to walk us through the rules because my opposition and my self had it wrong.

you can say or play however you want i really dont care, but i have searched this to the end, either call and ask or assume the rules in your own interpretation.

I mean really we all in a way assume we know the rules, but no one knows every rule in that big book.

OK, you are missing out a crucial step here, which is causing the error.

1) First step is to EVENLY ALLOCATE wounds to every model in the unit, before you can allocate another wound to a model in the unit. So if you have 10 models and 11 wounds, 10 models are allocated 1 wound each and the final model 1 wound extra

2) Secondly you GROUP models into groups of IDENTICAL models which have a pool of wounds.

So, assuming this 10 man unit was 10 nobs, all identical, you now have 10 groups of 1 model each, one with 2 wounds assigned to it. This follows the Complex Units rule

3) Now you make saves, as appropriate. Here the most you can lose is 1 nob.

Now, if you dont have a complex unit, or just a less complex unit, you would follow the multiple wound rules again.

Oh, and btw - this is how the rules actually are. GW phone line is a box packer who doesnt have a clue. Have a look at diversified nobs from the start of 5th ed, 2008. Trust us when we say that 99.99% have not been doing it wrong for the last 3 years.

a complex unit rules go after multi wound rules, even allocation is within complex units after splitting between multi and single

wait till 6th comes, they have a chart breaking down all the allocation due to it being a problem for so long.

all this tho only comes into play when you have multi and single and complex and take more wounds then you have models, how many times have you had this happen, i have only ever seen it 2 times in about 4 years of playing.

Okay, I drew a picture. I can't think of how clearer to explain the difference between units of multiple wound models and complex units of multiple wound models.

Cheers

DK - no, wrong.

You apply the complex unit rules, determine your wound groups, and then apply the multiple wound rules WITHIN EACH GROUP

Allocation is the first step whenever you have a complex unit. Always

Nos has said how it works, and canadianbigshot's Pic has it dead on as well. DK I am not sure what you mean by "complex unit rules go after multi wound rules".

wow...ok, sure, you all win

But just as a question, who of you have ran into this in a ranked game?

not part of it, a complex unit with mixed wound units? and received more wounds then models?

Me? Dozens of times, usually with Nobz and Paladins. Very, very, very easy to do with wound saturation units such as blob squads, multiple blast units such as 3 man oblits after having lashed them into a circle, etc.

Also - we "win" because we have shown you the way the rules work, with rules quotes and examples that follow the exact rules. You have a phonecall with a GW box packer. Read the tenets, and note which tenet you are breaking.

DK wrote:wow...ok, sure, you all win

But just as a question, who of you have ran into this in a ranked game?

not part of it, a complex unit with mixed wound units? and received more wounds then models?

DK, the reason to allocate wounds like this is not only an issue with NFW. If I have 5 Paladins all with different equipment and assign a wound on a model with a psycannon (i fail the save giving it one wound), I can then assign my next wound to a model with say a Daemonhammer and if I fail the save I stil have 5 paladins, just 2 with one wound each. Continue on and I may get luck yand take up to 5 wounds before I actually lose a model. Heck, if I take 2 missile launcher hits, I will put those on an already wounded model to avoid losing an already healthy model.

The same idea applies to other ID wounds, just like wounds that ignore armor. Right now the 'big boys' that come to mind who can do this are Bloodcrushers, Paladins and Nobs. It is actually not that complicated either...


I have seen it played this way at multiple GT's. I am not sure what a ranked match is, I was not aware that we had officially ranked prize fight style matches in 40k?

nosferatu1001 i have to say that is a unprofessional remark, I'm left guessing you dont know anyone that works at GW, glad you feel that way about the company that makes warhammer...take this Thread however your going to, IDK...you have nothing backing up what your saying other then something you typed up...call the "box packers" since thats there job and they have every codex and rulebook of every game and have most of them memorized.

With that said, thank you for everyone correcting me, i hope the OP got what he was looking for with the NFWs.

DK wrote:wow...ok, sure, you all win

But just as a question, who of you have ran into this in a ranked game?

not part of it, a complex unit with mixed wound units? and received more wounds then models?

I do all the time.

I have my Librarian joined to my terminator unit, and i have one or two Thunderhammer/Stormshield guys left, and a Lightning claw guy or two left, and they take 5 or 6 wounds from shooting. It happens almost every game.

Also DK, please read the Tenets of the forum.

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.

Found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

librarians are IDC, they are tgt different then the rest of the unit.

DK wrote:call the "box packers" since thats there job and they have every codex and rulebook of every game and have most of them memorized.

LOL.... years of calls and email by many people have proving this WRONG.

The problem with GW is there people answering the phones are not necessarily trained to know the games and rules intricacies for all GW products. There are, in fact, many jobs at GW that do not require any knowledge of the games themselves at all.

Nos's comment is more a reflection of this fact, rather than an insult on anyone in GW. I am sure there are not box packers at GW, robots do that now. Maybe the robots know the rules...

DK wrote:librarians are IDC, they are tgt different then the rest of the unit.

In close combat, yes.....but Deathreaper was talking about shooting in which they are part of the unit and wounds can be allocated to them.

DK wrote:wow...ok, sure, you all win

But just as a question, who of you have ran into this in a ranked game?

not part of it, a complex unit with mixed wound units? and received more wounds then models?

More wounds than wound groups (which is all that matters here) - every game with Tyranid Warriors (3W, heavy weapon guy is a separate wound group)

Look all I want to know is In a non diversified unit of nobs I am required to give each model it's number of wounds so in 5 nobs I have to allocate 2 to each nob and 1 to another
Ergo 2 jobs have 2 sounds and 1 has 1
If these wounds cause id do they move on to the next nob
Aka do I lose 5 or 3

Hooboy.

docbrown wrote:Look all I want to know is In a non diversified unit of nobs I am required to give each model it's number of wounds so in 5 nobs I have to allocate 2 to each nob and 1 to another

No. I'll break it down. You say a group of 5 nobs hit by 6 NFW attacks ( I assume the psychic test is passed)


Step One: Allocate Wounds
Each nob must be allocated one wound before you can allocate a second wound. So we get:

Nob1) One Wound
Nob2) One Wound
Nob3) One Wound
Nob4) One Wound
Nob5) Two Wounds

Step Two: Roll Saves for Identically Equipped Models
All Nobz are identically equipped so you have one group that must make 6 saves. Since NFW are powerweapon, you automatically fail.

Step Three: Grey Knights roll Psychic Test for Force Weapons
As soon as you fail a save, the Grey Knights roll to activate psychic weapons. Let's assume they pass which means all those 6 wounds now cause ID

Step Four: Suffer Wounds
Well since these are ID wounds you remove whole models before going to non-ID wounds (of which there aren't any). So you would have to remove 6 Nobz.

Of course you only have 5 Nobz, so all 5 will die while the 6th ID wound is just overkill is therefore wasted.

Also note that the only thing that would change in the above (if the GKs fail the psychic test, hence no ID wounds) is that you'd have 4 nobs left - one would die to the two wounds.

I swear the rules require you to give each non it's max amount of wounds before moving to the next

You'd swear wrong - or quote the rule here.

You have to allocate suffered wounds (post save) to models that have already taken wounds in a given wound group. But you allocate wounds across the wound group before saves.

docbrown wrote:I swear the rules require you to give each non it's max amount of wounds before moving to the next

If those weren't ID wounds, then yes, you would be correct:

If in step 3, the Grey Knights failed their test then only 3 would die.


Also remember that wound allocation and removing casualties are two completely different things that happen at two completely different times (allocation happens first, save rolls happen second, removing casualties happens third).

rig, he specifically mentioned it was a non-diversified group of Nobs.

somerandomdude wrote:rig, he specifically mentioned it was a non-diversified group of Nobs.

... And? Are my statements wrong? A non-diversified unit is a single wound group.

no need to take such offense... you happen to be wrong on this GK.

Each model in the unit must have a wound allocated to it before a second wound can be allocated.

AFTER you have allocated the wounds you put all models who are exactly the same in game terms in groups and roll wounds.

If a group fails more than 1 save and the models have 2 wounds, then a model takes 2 wounds before you can allocate a wound to the second model.

However, if ALL the members of the unit are unique (aka have different weapons or profiles, then EACH GROUP rolls its saves SEPARATELY from the rest.

IF you have 5 nobz all different and they take 5 wounds and fail them all, then all 5 nobz take 1 wound since each wound group took 1 wound.

Now if any of the nobz were identicle, then their group would have to allocate both wounds to 1 model before putting one on the next model.

rigeld2 wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:rig, he specifically mentioned it was a non-diversified group of Nobs.

... And? Are my statements wrong? A non-diversified unit is a single wound group.

Well:

rigeld2 wrote:Also note that the only thing that would change in the above (if the GKs fail the psychic test, hence no ID wounds) is that you'd have 4 nobs left - one would die to the two wounds.

If the situation to which you were replying occured, then you would have had more deaths, as they were all the same. Yes, the allocation occurs, but the amount of deaths between a diversified group and a non-diversified group would be different.

We are getting away from the discussion throughout most of the thread, which may have caused some confusion, but that issue was mostly closed.

somerandomdude wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:rig, he specifically mentioned it was a non-diversified group of Nobs.

... And? Are my statements wrong? A non-diversified unit is a single wound group.

Well:

rigeld2 wrote:Also note that the only thing that would change in the above (if the GKs fail the psychic test, hence no ID wounds) is that you'd have 4 nobs left - one would die to the two wounds.

If the situation to which you were replying occured, then you would have had more deaths, as they were all the same. Yes, the allocation occurs, but the amount of deaths between a diversified group and a non-diversified group would be different.

We are getting away from the discussion throughout most of the thread, which may have caused some confusion, but that issue was mostly closed.

You're right - I screwed that up. He'd lose 3 nobs in a non-diversified unit. I had typed out combining a diversified unit with the GKs failing the test, then changed it to just the GKs failing, but my brain didn't catch up. Thanks for correcting me.

Iirc that is the correct ruling for single wound models.
Multi wound models are a different case.
As I understood the rule yOu should allocate wounds so that If they all fail you should get casualties. Aka 2 per nob.

docbrown wrote:Iirc that is the correct ruling for single wound models.
Multi wound models are a different case.
As I understood the rule yOu should allocate wounds so that If they all fail you should get casualties. Aka 2 per nob.

Not exactly, wounds are allocated Per Model. You must allocate wounds evenly, so you must allocate one wound to every model, before allocating a second wound to any model, regardless of how many Wounds are on the models profile.

DeathReaper wrote:
Not exactly, wounds are allocated Per Model. You must allocate wounds evenly, so you must allocate one wound to every model, before allocating a second wound to any model, regardless of how many Wounds are on the models profile.

Reaper is correct. If you want a specific page to look up:

(1) Page 26, Second Column, 2nd Paragraph (a unit of identical models rolls saves as one group)
(2) 3rd paragraph is skipped as you don't have a diversified unit
(3) 4th is essentially skipped because of the caveat in paragraph 5
(4) 5th Paragraph amongst unsaved wounds you must first remove unwounded models (IE you have 5 ID wounds so you remove 5 Nobz)
(5) After (4) is complete you would normally go back to paragraph 4.....but you don't have any non-ID wounds so it doesn't matter.

Another way to look at it is space wolf long fangs with a different heavy weapon each. You have 6 guys there, essentially 6 1 man units after wounds have been allotted. So if that unit of 6 took 8 wounds, and you failed 2 saves on the lascannon guy, but the rest save, ONLY the lascannon guy would die. If we do this same thing but with all the guys having missile launchers, and we take 8 wounds again, and we allot 2 to the sarge, and the other 6 to the missile launcher group, sarge fails both of his, we ONLY remove him as the wound doesnt carry over to the missiles as they arent equipped like the sarge. Likewise, if ONLY the missiles failed all 6 of the woulds allotted to them, only they would die and not the sarge.

Now do the same thing with a 2 wound nob, each with differnt weapons. If you fail 2 of those saves, but 1 on 2 different guys, each of those guys would lose 1 wound as they are essentially a 1 man squad for the wounds. If we take the same nob squad and have 2 guy with the same weapon, and you roll for that group (because they would act like a unit since each are equipped the same), you have to remove whole models from units, so you would lose a nob there.

As for the original questions of the force weapons, think of them as always have a strength that is double any toughness as long as they make their check to activate the weapons. I hope that will help clear the water a little bit.

DK wrote:nosferatu1001 i have to say that is a unprofessional remark,

No it isnt. It is an accurate determination of the accuracy of the GW rules line, based in the states and not staffed by a single person whose sole job is to answer rules. To whit, ring up 3 times iwth a binary question and you will likely get 3 different answers.

DK wrote:I'm left guessing you dont know anyone that works at GW,

You'd guess horrendously, horrifically and 100% inaccurately then. My husband is ex GW staff. About 12 or 13 friends are either current or ex GW (the number of ex GW going up all the time, sadly - only so much managers and A managers will take) and I know a couple of the studio and BL guys. But then this isnt a comparison contest, just trying to show you that you should not assume you know anything about a poster, especially when you are clearly in a huff about being proven wrong

DK wrote:glad you feel that way about the company that makes warhammer...take this Thread however your going to, IDK...you have nothing backing up what your saying other then something you typed up

Well, nothing except

1) Rules quotes
2) Those rules quotes then applied to the situaiton in hand

and 3) - but not relevant for here - I have hundreds of 5th edition games, including a number of ranking tournaments, where the rules have been played correctly.

You have....nothing that applies according to the tenets of this forum. Nothing.

DK wrote:...call the "box packers" since thats there job and they have every codex and rulebook of every game and have most of them memorized.

NOW you are just making stuff up out of whole cloth. Clearly. You yourself must not know any GW staff members, because even those whose job it is to know the games system dont know the rules particularly well - again, I have personal, first hand experience across 12 or 13 people of exactly how good their knowledge is. Their rules knowledge actually generally improves when they leave, as you're no longer working whlie playing the game.

Finally - why would I call the US advice line, when I already know how the rles works and, importantly, can prove it?

i look at it this way, i was corrected by about 6 people and a judge in a tournament, complex unit rules only explain single wound models, not multi wounds

if the rules were the other way, then my paliden squads would never die, i would spread out 10 wounds before any would die unless i was hit with a ID weapon. they are complex due to all having different weapons.

DK wrote:i look at it this way, i was corrected by about 6 people and a judge in a tournament, complex unit rules only explain single wound models, not multi wounds

if the rules were the other way, then my paliden squads would never die, i would spread out 10 wounds before any would die unless i was hit with a ID weapon. they are complex due to all having different weapons.

You were lied to/misled by 6 people and a judge in a tournament.
Paladin squads are extremely difficult to kill and Multi-wound models can be in a Complex unit... one does not exclude the other.

...im sorry i dont see where i said multi and complex rules couldn't be applied to the same unit.


read pg 26 right side, 5th block down, it explains a complex unit with multi wounds

so thos who think they know the rules and are calming myself and the few others that we are wrong? should read the book a little better

DK wrote:i look at it this way, i was corrected by about 6 people and a judge in a tournament, complex unit rules only explain single wound models, not multi wounds

if the rules were the other way, then my paliden squads would never die, i would spread out 10 wounds before any would die unless i was hit with a ID weapon. they are complex due to all having different weapons.

DK wrote:...im sorry i dont see where i said multi and complex rules couldn't be applied to the same unit.


read pg 26 right side, 5th block down, it explains a complex unit with multi wounds

so thos who think they know the rules and are calming myself and the few others that we are wrong? should read the book a little better

The first quote implies that you think complex units and multi-wound units exclude each other.
Page 26, right side, 5th block (the nob example) is describing a unit with 2 wound groups.
The exact same nob unit could have 4 wound groups (4 unique models) and if they were, they would lose zero models.
That's what you're missing here. You should read the book a little better.

DK wrote:...im sorry i dont see where i said multi and complex rules couldn't be applied to the same unit.

read pg 26 right side, 5th block down, it explains a complex unit with multi wounds

so thos who think they know the rules and are calming myself and the few others that we are wrong? should read the book a little better

@DK ...really? Where have you been playing? Has anyone from your LGS advanced in Ard Boyz or played in a major tournament? I am at a loss as to how you could not grasp a fundamental concept of 40k. Its like someone arguing Rapid Fire rules or the like (after having the pages quoted at them).

@Everyone else... could this be a troll? It seems a little too unbelievable to be true that someone really thinks a call to GW is authoritative AND doesn't get wound allocation AFTER the pages are quoted AND was at a tournament where others were equally confused.

If this is for real... DK, read the third to last paragraph on page 26... if you can't understand that, and how it directly supports EVERYTHING EVERYONE else understands... there's only 3 options

A) You're a Troll (which I suspect is true... scared of sun/flame?)
B) You are doing what so many people do when they proof read they're own work: seeing what they believe is said, not what is there. Read it as if its the first time you ever saw it
C) You're hopeless, sell those 40K models online and take up Risk.

DK - please, just accept that the 6 people and TO who corrected you are just plain wrong on this.

Do a little research, note diversified orks and paladins and their use over the last 3 years (well, 4 months for paladins) of the game, for ork nobs since 5th edition began.

Complex units requires you to spread wounds evenly (allocation) before dividing into wound groups

Multi wounds requires you to remove wounded models FROM THAT WOUND GROUP

The two work perfectly hand in hand. There is no debate on this, you are simply, utterly and 100% incorrect.

Lobukia...u dont seem to understand what this is about...the point was you cannot just spread around wounds...and in a broad way you can...but you run into the fact that you cant among same models with multi wounds even if there complex

And yes...it was an 'ard boys terny

DK wrote:Lobukia...u dont seem to understand what this is about...the point was you cannot just spread around wounds...and in a broad way you can...but you run into the fact that you cant among same models with multi wounds even if there complex

And yes...it was an 'ard boys terny

Don't think that because it was an Ard Boyz tournament that means anything. it doesn't.

We don't know who the TO was or what his background is.

For all we know you were playing at a GW, and Redshirts know jack squat about rules interpertations most of the time. You can't trust anyone in a rules argument unless they show exact page quotes showing they are right.


In this case, you are most definitly wrong. Wrong by the very pages you have quoted.


believe me, this discussion has been around for a LONG time. The correct interpertaion has been shown to you. Now you can choose to either accept it, or continue being incorrect.

DK wrote:Lobukia...u dont seem to understand what this is about...the point was you cannot just spread around wounds...and in a broad way you can...but you run into the fact that you cant among same models with multi wounds even if there complex

And yes...it was an 'ard boys terny

Read the second half of the very image you posted back on page one. Specifically, the part that says "Multiple-wound models in the unit that are unique are rolled for separately and their unsaved wounds must be recorded separately." The material that you linked is proving you wrong.

DK wrote:Lobukia...u dont seem to understand what this is about...the point was you cannot just spread around wounds...and in a broad way you can...but you run into the fact that you cant among same models with multi wounds even if there complex

Then what is happening with the differing nob on page 26? Go away silly man... some people aren't smart enough to know they're dumb

Read third to last sentence of the third to last paragraph of page 26. Explain how that doesn't support the rest of the 40k world's point or how it supports what you are saying.

rigeld2 had it perfect on his first response to you, and you've been an ostrich ever since

canadianbigshot then gave you the color by numbers version

I actually thought you finally got it, then you jumped in with the paladin squad comment and went from confused to ignorant (the literal definition of the word)

Almighty...it still says you cannot spread out wounds...thats what it says...u cannot spread out wounds to multi wound models as much as possible...if you read the rest of that pg it gives a exp that shows the steps...how much more do you need...ur telling me im wrong and im only showing you the dam book...maybe you should ask ur mom to buy you the 5th ed so you can keep up

It even gives a multi wound complex exp...and says DO NOT SPREAD OUT MODELS...ur fighting the book not me

DK wrote:i look at it this way, i was corrected by about 6 people and a judge in a tournament, complex unit rules only explain single wound models, not multi wounds

if the rules were the other way, then my paliden squads would never die, i would spread out 10 wounds before any would die unless i was hit with a ID weapon. they are complex due to all having different weapons.

Well, they were wrong. Speaking as a former (former because GW US doesn't have GTs any more) GW US GT rules judge, nos and the others have it correct. And yes, that's the way your Paladins should work, if you can make each one unique.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DK wrote:Almighty...it still says you cannot spread out wounds...thats what it says...u cannot spread out wounds to multi wound models as much as possible...if you read the rest of that pg it gives a exp that shows the steps...how much more do you need...ur telling me im wrong and im only showing you the dam book...maybe you should ask ur mom to buy you the 5th ed so you can keep up

It even gives a multi wound complex exp...and says DO NOT SPREAD OUT MODELS...ur fighting the book not me

Nope, YOU are the one that is misreading the rules. Deal with it.

Ok...ur all right then...i will use this to make it even harder to kill my palidins...sweet

DK wrote:Almighty...it still says you cannot spread out wounds...thats what it says...u cannot spread out wounds to multi wound models as much as possible...if you read the rest of that pg it gives a exp that shows the steps...how much more do you need...ur telling me im wrong and im only showing you the dam book...maybe you should ask ur mom to buy you the 5th ed so you can keep up

It even gives a multi wound complex exp...and says DO NOT SPREAD OUT MODELS...ur fighting the book not me

So you think that having a Paladin squad of 8 fresh terminators, with all having different kit, cannot possibly fail 5 saves after taking 7 hits and still have all units alive (because by the rules, its impossible in that situation for any to have died)?

Ur right and im wrong...i will play that way...5 wounds get spread out and do what i can to make them live as long as possible

DK wrote:Ur right and im wrong...i will play that way...5 wounds get spread out and do what i can to make them live as long as possible

Now, if they're kitted the same, you've been perfectly correct... 5 wounds would kill 2 and leave 1 halfway there... and any further wounds would have to kill the already hurt one

By the same token, its a real mess when you get 4 of one kit, 5 of another, and an apothecary (3 wound groups)

Then follow the rules on 25 for allocation, and then apply wounds to each group (killing whole models as possible, in each group


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...so in my example

22 wounding hits on that squad of 10

the group of 5 is allocated 10 wounds, the group of 4 10, and the apothecary 2 (perfectly legal)

so the group of 5 fails 3 (so one dies and one is -1)
the group of 4 fails 3 (so one dies and one is -1)
and the apothecary fails one, and is also -1

just as the rules allow it

DK wrote:Almighty...it still says you cannot spread out wounds...thats what it says...u cannot spread out wounds to multi wound models as much as possible...if you read the rest of that pg it gives a exp that shows the steps...how much more do you need...ur telling me im wrong and im only showing you the dam book...maybe you should ask ur mom to buy you the 5th ed so you can keep up

It even gives a multi wound complex exp...and says DO NOT SPREAD OUT MODELS...ur fighting the book not me

That was entirely uncalled for; if you actually bothered to read what the book said about multi-wound characters and how they're an exception to the rule you're quoting, you wouldn't have had to make yourself seem extremely rude by resorting to ad hominem attacks. Congratulations, you're the first person to make it onto my ignore list, have fun with that.

Guys - leave it, the rules are perfectly clear on this, and if DK wants to believe otherwise there comes a point when you jusdt have to let people be wrong, and move on.

Especially when theyre having to resort to petty insults

So what about a unit of scarabs or razorwings that are not complex

How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Draigo wrote:How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Brotherhood states that after an unsaved wound roll a psychic test and if passed ALL wounds caused by NFW that turn cause ID.

Nungunz wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Brotherhood states that after an unsaved wound roll a psychic test and if passed ALL wounds caused by NFW that turn cause ID.

I said unless you have a banner or a character with brotherhood you have to make a roll for each character using the force weapon. Not a difficult concept and only justicars, Knight of Flame, Paladin, Purifier etc have brotherhood of psyker. Not IC, not librarian, etc Banner auto pass.. Brotherhood one test. thats it..

Sorry, my bad, didn't get the whole thing there.

Draigo wrote:

Nungunz wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Brotherhood states that after an unsaved wound roll a psychic test and if passed ALL wounds caused by NFW that turn cause ID.

I said unless you have a banner or a character with brotherhood you have to make a roll for each character using the force weapon. Not a difficult concept and only justicars, Knight of Flame, Paladin, Purifier etc have brotherhood of psyker. Not IC, not librarian, etc Banner auto pass.. Brotherhood one test. thats it..

Just sayin', it's not just the Justicar/KotF etc. that has the BoP rule, the entire unit does. Otherwise they'd be pretty hosed once the Justicar-equivalent died (or, in the case of Paladins, immediately, as there's no Justicar-equivalent).

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Draigo wrote:

Nungunz wrote:

Draigo wrote:How is nfw complicated? Wound allocation.. if wound you roll a psy test per wound unless you have a banner or a character like Justicar with Brotherhood of psykers. Keep seeing people say all nfw just roll one test but that's incorrect.

Brotherhood states that after an unsaved wound roll a psychic test and if passed ALL wounds caused by NFW that turn cause ID.

I said unless you have a banner or a character with brotherhood you have to make a roll for each character using the force weapon. Not a difficult concept and only justicars, Knight of Flame, Paladin, Purifier etc have brotherhood of psyker. Not IC, not librarian, etc Banner auto pass.. Brotherhood one test. thats it..

Just sayin', it's not just the Justicar/KotF etc. that has the BoP rule, the entire unit does. Otherwise they'd be pretty hosed once the Justicar-equivalent died (or, in the case of Paladins, immediately, as there's no Justicar-equivalent).

Well since I repeated kotf and purifier I was saying squads and the paladin squad is different considering it say unit size is 1 to start and its in their profile but thanx. The only difference is without the justicar or kotf type character peril is taken at random.

Units of Grey Kn1ghts are psykers and use their mental might
to enhance their abilities or unleash psychic attacks.
A Grey Knight unit can use one psychic power each turn. The
unit counts as a single psyker and follows all the normal rules
for psykers, with the following clarifications:
• A Grey Knight unit uses the Leadership of its Justicar or
Knight of the Flame (if he is alive). or the unit (if he is
dead) for Psychic tests. A Grey Knight unit can never use
the Leadership value of an independent character for
Psychic tests.
• If the Grey Knight unit suffers the Perils of the Warp, or
any attack that specifically targets psykers, it is resolved
against the Justicar or Knight of the Flame (if he is alive)
or aga1nst a random non-character model in the squad if
the Just1car or Knight of the Flame IS dead.

I don't think I understand Draigo's stance here. First it's roll per wound, then it's comments about Justicars and banners and such. none of which matters. It's this simple. if a unit of GK wielding NFW causes a wound (or multiple wounds), they make ONE psychic test. If passed, all NFW wounds dealt by that unit for the rest of that combat phase cause Instant Death. So yes, it is simple.

I just have a quick question about this:

If I have a unit of 10 scarabs (30 wounds) and they take 10 wounds from a unit of grey knights all 10 bases removed as casualties? Or would I lose 4 bases because the wounds are taken before the force weapons are activated?

I'm under the impression of the latter as the way the force weapons read, they activate after the unit takes a wound and as all wounds are done at the same time, 3 bases would die from the wounds and 1 base would take a wound. The force weapons activate and the remaining based then suffers instant death as it suffered a wound. Now if the unit had halberds and struck at a different initiative, the force weapons would already be activated when the next models in the unit strike which would allow all of their wounds to cause ID and would make the unit remove whole bases of scarabs for each hit.

Please let me know if I'm wrong on this.

the wounds are ID causing BEFORE you remove Casualties, meaning you lose all 10 bases

Hmm so interesting idea here, vs GK it would seem non diversified nobs would be better amirite?

Example 1 vs Diversified nobs
5 NFW Wounds

PK Waaagh 1
PK Scorcha 1
PK 1
Choppa 1
Choppa Scorcha 1
Derp

Test-5 dead nobs


Example 2 vs Non-Diversified nobs

5 NFW Wounds

PK Waaggh 1
PK 2
PK 2
PK
PK
PK

Test-3 dead nobs

Right?

No, you have entirely missed the point of the thread

NFW turn EVERy wound into an ID wound. This is BEFORE you remove casualties - so either way for every wound you take you lose a nob.

Grots R OP wrote:Hmm so interesting idea here, vs GK it would seem non diversified nobs would be better amirite?

Example 1 vs Diversified nobs
5 NFW Wounds

PK Waaagh 1
PK Scorcha 1
PK 1
Choppa 1
Choppa Scorcha 1
Derp

Test-5 dead nobs


Example 2 vs Non-Diversified nobs

5 NFW Wounds

PK Waaggh 1
PK 2
PK 2
PK
PK
PK

Test-3 dead nobs

Right?

Nope. Page 26, right-hand column, "Units of Multiple-Wound Models". You have to remove one unwounded model for each unsaved wound causing ID BEFORE you proceed with taking any other wounds; ID wounds break the normal sequence of wound allocation. In your example above, all five Nobz die either way.

Diversified or undiversified, Nobs die to NFWs just as badly.

OK got it, so the test is done after invul saves not after allocation. Regardless, the unsaved wounds follow ID and will trickle down the stack.

Yep, that's it. WAC shenanigans are very helpful in many circumstances, but sadly fighting Paladins is not one of them.

I was under the impression that the force weapons had to cause an unsaved wound in order to activate as all wounds had to be done simultaneously. I take 10 wounds I remove 10 wounds from the 30 wound unit of scarabs then the knights test to activate their weapons and at that point they cause instant death. Its almost like the chicken before the egg. The force weapons don't cause instant death until they do a wound and they don't do a wound until the wounds are given to the models and when they are all similar models you don't put 1 wound on each base.

p22 of the Grey Knights codex:
Force Weapons: All Nemesis weapons are force weapons, as detailed in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Note that a unit of Grey Knights with the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule needs to take only a single Psychic test to 'activate' all of its force weapons (although independent characters must still roll separately). If the test is passed, all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant death. If a unit is striking at different Initiative orders, take the Psychic test to 'activate' the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused. Any further wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase will be bound by the result of that Psychic test.

The last sentence was what tripped me up. Models striking in different initiative order. That led me to believe what I stated above.

I don't have a dog in the fight because I only play 1 wound trooper armies so it makes no difference to me either way - a wound with a force weapon will still kill my marine/guardsman without a psychic test. They are just using hammer hand or some other [explative deleted] psychic power.

the point of that sentence was because GK units have multiple inititive steps. They have guys with halberds(I6), guys with Swords(I4), and guys with Daemonhammers(I1)

its to clarify that when the halberds inflict wounds and the FW are activated that the Swords and Hammers will also inflict ID.


and the test is taken after unsaved wounds are caused but BEFORE those unsaved wounds are actually given to particular models.

Boyd - unsaved wounds are turned into Remove Casualties unsaved wounds, NFW activate BEFORE you remove casualties

The ID rules require you to remove a base per ID wound