What do Sororitas do in their spare time? Do they have a social life per se, or do they just stay in their convents? We do know that they're not required to swear an Oath of Celibacy, so... My apologies if I offend anyone, but I can't find any fluff about this.
Well according to the book I've read they usually spend their time praying or doing rites. They do have free time between training and rites where they socialize with fellow Sisters of their order.
They sometimes get dispatched to other orders for training purposes. They have free time on ships and seem to spend that reading or hating witches.
At least in one case a few sisters have been released, temporarily, from their duties to do something else. Visit other places.
I'm not sure they have much time for stuff, they're nuns, teachers and soldiers. Not like they get vacation time. That's Guard talk!
Tadashi wrote:I know that, but still...kinda a shame...and they look so good in cosplay...
Why is a shame? What difference does it make to you if they had social lives or not?
And cosplay? You mean people cosplaying as Sororitas? Or Sororitas cosplaying? In the case of the latter, Im disturbed as to how you came by such a thing...
They spend their time straightening their hair, applying makeup, swapping stories, pillow-fighting, giggling, engaging in various 'sorority-related' antics, getting visited by the Guardsmen from across the lake...
Well, that thing you're thinking, and you're hinting at waiting for someone to say it. It's not that.
They probably clean their armour, strip their weapons, practice sword fighting, pray, be holy, Skype with their friends in other convents, burn witches, purge heretics and such like. You know, just the usual really.
As far as Cain's memoirs(Cain's Last Stand) can be accounted as reliable, they can seek some ...fun and reassurance on the side -after all, they're Daughters of Emperor, not Brides Also i thing that some kids in Scholas in reality do have live mothers
I doubt there is many high positioned beings in the IOM that get time to relax. Anyway, idleness is the road to heresy and all. All in all, Sorritas are moralists. Moralists hate boredom as it leads to the immoral, such as mental over stimulation as compensation. Puritans never have parties for a reason.
Anyway. I don't understand people thinking that the SOB have sex appeal. Mainly for many of the reasons I have put above.
When did you hear that SoB had a free time?
They are praying, training and preparing their weapons in their free time.
Socializing with others Sisters is of course normal thing to do in meantime.
Now I have a question: Is there any record about Sister wanting to live the Sororitas and live like a normal Human? Is that thing even possible.
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chyron wrote:As far as Cain's memoirs(Cain's Last Stand) can be accounted as reliable.
Reliable?
That book disregard official canon like Matt Ward.
Brother Coa wrote:
Reliable?
That book disregard official canon like Matt Ward.
Question: Do Sororitas have some spare time?
Codex: No mention.
BL:Yes. At least some of them.
Question: Do Sororitas _must_ be celibate?
Codex: No mention.
BL: No. Why they should be?
IMO as BL do not contradict 'Dex, question is answered.
PS No matter how i dislike Draigo and other mattwardisms , they're in 'dex, so they're canon.
PS 2 I won't be shocked if someday we'll find that AS took some pages from Bene Gesserit and Lahmian bloodline books...they're not limited to Sisters of Battle roles, you know.
Howard A Treesong wrote:They spend most of their time shopping for armoured corsets and making out with each other.
Well, i think most spectaculous armoured corsets are gifts of various admirers...how else can you present some _fetish_ clothes to girls like them and not be proclaimed slaaneshit heretic?
chyron wrote:
IMO as BL do not contradict 'Dex, question is answered.
"The following statement comes from the Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition: "A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."
"The novel "Cain's Last Stand", It is also stated that an entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence."
Not contradicting my And they are Space Nuns, they love only the Emperor and therefore they are celibate. As normal nuns are, because they love only God.
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chyron wrote:
BL: No. Why they should be?
Because they are nuns, holly women of the official religion.
They have no time for that kind of thing.
chyron wrote:
IMO as BL do not contradict 'Dex, question is answered.
"The following statement comes from the Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition: "A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."
"The novel "Cain's Last Stand", It is also stated that an entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence."
Not contradicting my And they are Space Nuns, they love only the Emperor and therefore they are celibate. As normal nuns are, because they love only God.
The Sisters in Last Stand don't really count. Once they were in their right minds they topped themselves.
Well Melissia I dont think he hates them, maybe just has no respect for the combat doctine they follow. Plus he dosent like the Emperor botherers, or something. Going to reread my cain books now.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Well Melissia I dont think he hates them, maybe just has no respect for the combat doctine they follow. Plus he doesn't like the Emperor botherers, or something. Going to reread my cain books now.
He does hate them. Precisely because they're "emperor-botherers", his way of calling people fanatics without calling them fanatics.
As has been said, there is no "off-duty" for a Sister. At least if you go by what GW has written about them so far:
"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation, and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sisters Superior who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline and brook no distraction from their studies."
- 2E Codex
"It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering. Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?"
- 3E Rulebook
Of course, certain licensed products such as the Cain novels paint an entirely different picture, either because the respective author did not read up on all existing background from GW, or that he just did not care. Given that the concept of canon is non-existent in this franchise, it is up to you as a reader which interpretation of the Sororitas you prefer (or even if you make up your own ideas in that regard). I for one know which I'd consider to be more grimdark, though.
GFGames wrote:The Sisters in the Cain book in question didn't actually fall to Chaos. I can't really explain a lot more without spoilers, but in my view that book was fully within the bounds of existing fluff, albeit obviously coming from a highly unreliable narrator.
GFGames wrote:The Sisters in the Cain book in question didn't actually fall to Chaos. I can't really explain a lot more without spoilers, but in my view that book was fully within the bounds of existing fluff, albeit obviously coming from a highly unreliable narrator.
Cain is contemptuous of them like he is of any "Emperor botherer" it doesnt mean he hates them. And i liked the retired Sister who liked to gamble. It shows they can mellow out.
That said the Sisters are more or less a religious order so they probably would behave like any religious osrt. this doesn't mean they do nothing but pray and polish their armor (like a Space Marine), but I do think it would put constraints on the sorts of activities they do. TRaining. Perhaps they do devotional artwork or illumination. They might read, or study, or gain further education/knowledge - they're not stupid after all. They might exercsie or even play some games - they do form attachments and socialize.
The Sisters in Cain's Last Stand don't count. Falling to Chaos implies a willing and knowing choice, which those Sisters didn't do, and when they got their free will back, they promptly killed themselves. And although Cain's probably the closest 40k's gonna get to an agnostic, he does believe in the Emperor though, otherwise his Inquisitor friend would have had his head long before.
Seems like their life outside of warfare would be like that of space marines' -- one of quiet reflection, training, sparring.
Sisters permanently crippled might serve their order in other ways, like tutoring recruits or serving in a adivsory capacities.
Of course, I'm sure there are differences between the different orders and there's obviously individual personalities to consider, but on the whole, I think the above applies.
Ronin-Sage wrote:Of course, I'm sure there are differences between the different orders [...]
Not as extensive as between the individual Marine Chapters and Guard regiments, at least. There are comparatively few Sisters around, half of them get trained in the same headquarters, their command structure culminates in a single leader with few steps in-between, and they can all trace their source back to the temple of San Leor, whose teachings and rules they follow to this very day. That's not to say that individual Orders don't ever receive a specific reputation, but that's more due to the personality of individual leaders rather than operational differences or, Emperor forbid, distinctions in their rules.
But all of that is, again, only how GW described it, and the chance that you have some novel tell you differently is comparatively big (as half the existing Sororitas fluff is hidden away in sources few authors are even aware of).
The most confusing part of all this is because GW allows BL to sell novels that may conflict with Codexes. Although they'll just say that '...it doesn't actually contradict the Codex...'. Well, they do have a point, as long as the Codex isn't explicitly contradicted, then its canon...like the Star Child, Illuminati, and so on, and so on...
chyron wrote:
IMO as BL do not contradict 'Dex, question is answered.
"The following statement comes from the Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition: "A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."
"The novel "Cain's Last Stand", It is also stated that an entire Mission of Sisters were seen engaging Imperial forces with Chaos cultists, Cain is also confronted by two sisters under Daemon influence."
Technically, that book post-dates the 2E codex. So it's obvious that Chaos has figured out the right recipe for Sister seducing.
And of course the sisters in the art are pretty. They aren't going to use the regular ones for Imperial recruitment and propaganda, just like the real world Army doesn't use the buck toothed hillbilly from the sticks.
If it makes the OP happy; Off-duty Sororitas suck, feth and squirm their way through off-duty Astartes, Imperial Guardsmen and even the occasional Eldar.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Technically, that book post-dates the 2E codex. So it's obvious that Chaos has figured out the right recipe for Sister seducing.
3'rd edition codex also states this. And I am sure 6'th edition will state it as well.
When a member of the Moderation team deletes your images, you do not repost them.
Reds8n
There are different types of Sororitas such as the Oder famulous, the Order of Hospitaliers etc who will all do things differently but of course since they are never spoken of in the "HOLY CODEX", people like Lynata , constantly complain. Obviously, cause the "Holy Codex" doesn't mention people drinking alcohol or water, it means that they don't exist in the Imperium .
Seeing how humility and service is an ideal for the sisters I can't imagine them much approving of any off-duty that isn't meant to remind them of this in some way. Or at least make them better suited for their work in some way.
Studies in chosen subjects, maybe. The orders do have specialists in a wide variety of suitably church approved fields. I imagine a sister reading up on the right subjects would get full approval as long as she doesn't start asking stupid questions. Extra sports and martial arts are probably approved too, as long as it's properly supervised.
But the sisters also carry those bands of prayer beads where every bead signifies an act of penance for some sin, imagined or otherwise. And I imagine they'd think it presumptuous to just invent a sin to do penance for so they might have to resort to real sins. (Technically the invented sin works too, as that's lying in confession!) Humility and service - that probably means the penance won't be for anything major but small everyday things. Forgetting some duty, mishandling a weapon, thinking "bad thoughts" about a superior or fellow sister, or maybe even speaking to an outsider in an improper manner.
I guess most "sisters are hot" stories come from the penitent who had a sister smile at him as he apologized for being in the way while doing his sweeping duty in the cathedral... "She totally wanted me" while the sister goes and asks for penace for smiling in a place of worship.
How does the Sister Famulous fit on your theory seeing as its very much implied that they arrange secret liasons between nobles or arrange marriages and collect genetic samples? These sisters are deeply involved in politics.
How does the Sister Famulous fit on your theory seeing as its very much implied that they arrange secret liasons between nobles or arrange marriages and collect genetic samples? These sisters are deeply involved in politics.
They're doing their duty to the Imperium by seeing to it the right people get to rule? The genetically pure, the families that respect the church properly, the nobles that best can further the cause? I could even see them arranging to have children by some especially lauded hero if they think those children would be an asset to the Schola Progenia.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Technically, that book post-dates the 2E codex. So it's obvious that Chaos has figured out the right recipe for Sister seducing.
Technically, a lot of BL novels are full of crap that GW doesn't care about, especially when it comes about the Sisters or the Schola Progenium.
Though I'll have to add that my problem with the Cain books isn't any "Chaos seduction" (I don't even know the details about that) but rather the suddenly mixed-gender Schola hubs, and veteran Superiors who are apparently perfectly free to toss down alcoholica with random outsiders and having fun by socializing and playing games. Goes against the very style of the entire army.
The Sisters as a whole have been described as incorruptible, but there is always room for exceptions. I like Miriael Sabathiel's story, for example. That her case is supposed to be unique makes her character all the more awesome whilst keeping the penitent / purity-focused character of the army intact. Though Miriael is - as far as I'm aware - not mentioned in any GW sources but only in Sabertooth' 40kTCG and some short story by Abnett. That every second novel the Black Library churns out features some mass-conversion of Sisters to Chaos is pretty cheapening, imo; they're almost approaching Marine-ratio by now.
But if you prefer Mitchell's interpretation of the Sororitas to GW's - it's your decision! Lack of canon means we are all free to choose which version we go by for ourselves.
We are also all free to condemn what canon we wish as well, Lynata. You just dont' do so cause it isn't canon (except for fanfiction of course), rather, you do so because it's poorly written and stupid (like Mitchell's inability to write a likable religious character-- the Celestian was written as basically a secular Sister, which is wrong on so many levels even if it is perfectly fine if taken out of the context of 40k).
I fear I don't understand what you're getting at. Of course everyone is free to condemn whatever he wants - no canon means no rules. We all have our own interpretations, shaped by whatever we've been reading and influenced by personal preferences and individual taste. That's my entire point; sorry if I failed to get it across.
As for my "need" - as long as I feel that there are still people who believe in 40k following any concept of "canonicity" I will likely continue to point out it doesn't exist when I post in the appropriate threads. It simply eliminates the need to pointlessly argue about stuff, which I (having been stupid enough to get caught up in such arguments often enough back then) am convinced has to be a good thing. When there is no "universal truth", fans who would otherwise be led to believe that their interpretation is the "correct one" don't have a reason to squabble over conflicting details (with no solution even being possible, as any rules on this subject are completely arbitrary), and a simple exchange of interpretations will both be more productive as well as friendly.
That doesn't mean that I or anyone else has to like all those interpretations (as my criticism towards the Cain novels or other books such as Redemption Corps etc likely shows), but it essentially all boils down to a difference in taste, and as we all know there's no accounting for that. In short: tolerance, not acceptance. That should work for all of us.
Necessary? There's a purpose to this thread besides some good ol' fashion stupid...Wait...Well, maybe there is.
Sisters of Battle spend their time much like warrior monks except that they're warrior nuns.
No, probably (Almost definitely) not hot sex except for some few impious individuals, like monks and nuns today and in the middle ages...More like the middle ages in that they'd probably be severely, severely punished. Sorry boys.
Of course, this is conjecture. GW hasn't and hopefully won't waste its time entertaining these sorts of topics.
I don't understand why this topic is so taboo. "oh noes so immature". It's a known fact that women with guns = hot. We all know the only reason anyone watches Underworld is to see Kate Beckinsale in tight leather shooting pistols. Why is joking around about SoB suddenly off-limits? Weird.
I'm sure something like 'dance night' doesn't exist for the AS. However, given what I've read concerning phyiscal intimacy in 40k, no one seems to care.
Unless it's some sort of Xenos.
It's a fun topic to consider given that AS are some of the more attractive pieces of the 40k universe (let's face it, everything is either scar-covered, cybernetic, or otherwise). Men will always find the one thing attractive about any subject and concentrate on it, I know I do.
Frankenberry wrote:I'm sure something like 'dance night' doesn't exist for the AS. However, given what I've read concerning phyiscal intimacy in 40k, no one seems to care.
Unless it's some sort of Xenos.
It's a fun topic to consider given that AS are some of the more attractive pieces of the 40k universe (let's face it, everything is either scar-covered, cybernetic, or otherwise). Men will always find the one thing attractive about any subject and concentrate on it, I know I do.
As long as is doesn't deviate from social norms (deviancy) and it doesn't get in the way of your duty, I doubt the Imperium would care what you do with your personal life.
Of course the Imperium cares. If you have a personal life you obviously are not doing enough to support the Emperor. A personal life gives one undue time to contemplate un-sanctioned subjects which may lead to treason or heresy! Burn the heretic! PURGE IT WITH FIRE!!!
BlaxicanX wrote:I don't understand why this topic is so taboo. "oh noes so immature". It's a known fact that women with guns = hot. We all know the only reason anyone watches Underworld is to see Kate Beckinsale in tight leather shooting pistols. Why is joking around about SoB suddenly off-limits? Weird.
I agree, Sororitas = hot. But the problem is that in fluff they are devoted to the Emperor and Crusades while guys wanted for them to be devoted to sex and parties.
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Tadashi wrote: I doubt the Imperium would care what you do with your personal life.
What if I am praying to Slaanesh before laying down to sleep?
Should any Sister, in her deeds or thoughts, sin, she should willingly and immediately make her fault known to her Superior, and amend with a pure heart. If she does not usually fail in this manner, let her be given but a week's penance, but if her sin is great, let her go apart from the company of her Sisters, so that she may not sit at table with them, nor kneel in prayer at their side. Let her go alone, submitting herself to the will of the almighty God-Emperor of Mankind. Let her don the hood of the penitent and take up the ceremonial eviscerator, and seek her redemption upon the field of battle.
Trust me, no one is going to have a fling or a crazy girls' night out on the town when the results are having to become a Repentia. As a Repentia, absolution is earned only upon death. There is no surviving this penance, no "ex-Repentias" who are not also corpses.
Of the non-Militant orders:
Ours is to honor the martyr, tend the fallen, defend the innocent, and walk always in the light."
... from the Book of Hours of the Ordo Hospitaller.
And, again, from the Rule of Sororitas:
It is not enough to serve the Emperor, or even to love Him. You must give to Him all that you had, all you have, and all you shall ever have. You must give yourself over utterly and entirely to His divine will and become a vessel of that will. Only then is your sacrifice fitting.
This last bit, especially, indicates that being a member of the Sisterhood requires 110% devotion to the God-Emperor and the Creed. There is no time or room for emotional attachments or relationships with other people. There is no time for the amassing of personal fortunes and wealth. There is no time or room for pursuing interests, hobbies, goals or desires outside that of the Sisterhood and faith in the God-Emperor.
Jefffar wrote:Of course the Imperium cares. If you have a personal life you obviously are not doing enough to support the Emperor. A personal life gives one undue time to contemplate un-sanctioned subjects which may lead to treason or heresy! Burn the heretic! PURGE IT WITH FIRE!!!
Don't be foolish. The Imperium doesn't care, it has more important concerns.
Brother Coa wrote:
What if I am praying to Slaanesh before laying down to sleep?
If you're part of the Imperium population, you wouldn't know about Slaanesh. And I'm sorry but praying to Slaanesh achives nothing. Slaanesh requires tremoundously deprave acts before you get 'its' attention which will require a cult and when you do, you'll also attract the attention of the Inquisition and thus begins the purge.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:If you're part of the Imperium population, you wouldn't know about Slaanesh. And I'm sorry but praying to Slaanesh achives nothing. Slaanesh requires tremoundously deprave acts before you get 'its' attention which will require a cult and when you do, you'll also attract the attention of the Inquisition and thus begins the purge.
Well, in 5'th edition rulebook there is one guy that prayed to Chaos God ( don't remember whom ). And ( SURPRISE, SURPRISE ) Daemons starting jumping out from his cattle, in the end the world was exterminated by Grey Knights.
I do not mind that the Sisters have a bit of a fetish-nun vibe going looks-wise. I think it fits nicely the bizarro world of the 40K.
However, I do loathe how some people seem to think, that just because the Sisters are women, they should be relegated to the role of a power-armoured camp followers.
Even though from real world perspective their attire may be silly, in-world the Sisters very much take themselves seriously. They are warrior-nuns, servants of the Emperor. They are chaste. Their purpose is not amuse the men, their purpose is to slay the enemies of the God-Emperor.
I think the reason behind that boils down to two things (or one, if you want to lump them together):
a) The more forbidden or unattainable something is, the more you want it. The more pure and innocent something is, the more naughty it becomes to corrupt it.
b) Nunsploitation
Personally, I can perfectly understand the attractivity of the Sisters in that way. It's a human thing, and the fluff and images of the Sororitas do contain a certain sexual allure (if you want to look for it). On the other hand, it saddens me that this perception seems more popular and prevalent than their "true" martial aspect of grimdark dedication and crazy religious zeal.
Tadashi wrote: I doubt the Imperium would care what you do with your personal life.
What if I am praying to Slaanesh before laying down to sleep?
I meant that as long as you fulfill your duty and follow what Imperial society and law expects you to follow, the Imperium generally allows you to do as you please. Abhor the deviant after all...
But the expectations of Imperial society and law more or less preclude anything resembling free time. Every labour, every thought, every wish must be about protecting the Imperium and serving the Emperor. Even the slightest deviance from this si grounds for execution.
Brother Coa wrote:
Well, in 5'th edition rulebook there is one guy that prayed to Chaos God ( don't remember whom ). And ( SURPRISE, SURPRISE ) Daemons starting jumping out from his cattle, in the end the world was exterminated by Grey Knights.
"achieves nothing" eh...?
Okay I should have phrased my post better. Most of the time nothing happens but sometimes that stuff happens. Frankly if that happened every time someone prayed to the Chaos Gods, countless Imperial worlds should by now be overrun by daemons.
Lynata wrote: it saddens me that this perception seems more popular and prevalent than their "true" martial aspect of grimdark dedication and crazy religious zeal.
How is being dedicated 'grimdark'?
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Jefffar wrote:But the expectations of Imperial society and law more or less preclude anything resembling free time. Every labour, every thought, every wish must be about protecting the Imperium and serving the Emperor. Even the slightest deviance from this si grounds for execution.
What law or expectation? The Imperial religion has, as far as I know, ever shown a revulsion for sex, love etc. Who are going to execute the Sisters? Remember the Sister Repentia, that is something the Sister put themselves through as per this:
Should any Sister, in her deeds or thoughts, sin, she should willingly and immediately make her fault known to her Superior, and amend with a pure heart. If she does not usually fail in this manner, let her be given but a week's penance, but if her sin is great, let her go apart from the company of her Sisters, so that she may not sit at table with them, nor kneel in prayer at their side. Let her go alone, submitting herself to the will of the almighty God-Emperor of Mankind. Let her don the hood of the penitent and take up the ceremonial eviscerator, and seek her redemption upon the field of battle.
Corporal_Reznov wrote:How is being dedicated 'grimdark'?
It's the level the Sisters take it to. Like everything in Wh40k, the studio took something and dialed it up to eleven - in this case religiously-motivated determination. The Sororitas live (and die) solely for duty and the task they are committed to depending on their Order, at least if you go by that rulebook quote. Here is the full citation, by the way. Quite telling ... and indeed pretty grimdark, if you ask me:
Wh40k 3E Rulebook wrote:The Mother Superior took up a pen and carefully began to take notes. To my astonishment the silver pen appeared to be studded with short pins or nails which vexed the flesh of her fingers as she wrote. He fingers were quite raw where the skin had been worn away by the sharp points, yet she made no outward signs of discomfort as if this were the most natural thing in the world. Doubtlessly seeing my expression of horror, she stopped writing and carefully put the pen on the tabletop.
'Our belief,' she said slowly, 'is that there are two reasons only for a thing to be made. The first is that its manufacture inflicts suffering upon its maker which is reason enough to make it. The second is that the thing, once made, causes suffering to those who use it. It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering. Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?'
'I have heard this and other things too,' I mumbled, embarrassed by what must have appeared a morbid fascination.
'Of course. Hair-shirts! Naked vigils on cold stone floors! The scourge of prayer and endless mortifications of the flesh!' She smiled as if amused by my timidity. I had heard of these things of course but could not answer her. 'This pen,' she said matter of factly, 'was made by Sister Chastity to remind us that words have their price, for there is no value in suffering for its own sake, is there!'
Meh, I can't be mad at people for only being interested in the SoB because they're women. 'cause like... let's be honest here. SoB are basically weaker space marines. You want insane, religiously zealous super soldiers? There's the Black Templars, among a whole host of other mentally ill speyce muhreens. You can't throw a rock in the 40K universe without hitting a zealous ultra-religious IoM character in the face. So what makes the SoB stand out as characters in a universe that is oversatured with characters?
Their vag. =| I don't think the SoB would be as popular as they are if they were the Brothers of Battle.
BlaxicanX wrote:So what makes the SoB stand out as characters in a universe that is oversatured with characters?
That in the end, they are still only human.
And yes, I actually think they would be more popular as "Brothers of Battle", simply because Space Marines are more popular in general, being all awesome and masculine and powerful and invulnerable etc.
[edit] Here's another bit about their "spare time", from the 3E Codex:
"When not actively prosecuting the Ecclesiarchy's wars, the Sisters of the Orders Militant divide their time between prayer and training. Indeed, to the Adepta Sororitas, the two disciplines are nigh inseparable. A Sister may devote many long hours knelt before the high altar of her convent, fasting and meditating upon the meaning of a single passage in the Litanies of Faith, before gaining profound insight by the conclusion of her vigil. To the Adepta Sororitas, penitence and self-mortification are a vital part of life as a devout servant of the Emperor, for only through extreme self-denial can one truly gain an inkling of the sacrifice that the Master of Mankind Himself has made for His faithful servants."
This is an...interesting thread, to say the least. I remember reading in one of the Ciaphas Cain books about the titular hero's memories of spending too much time in the scrum-ball courts, and frequently being hospitalized by Adeptas Sororitas, so they must have some fun now and again.
An interesting Black Library novel could follow the life of a Battle Sister, who perhaps starts ann illicit romance, possibly even with another sister...
Squigsquasher wrote:An interesting Black Library novel could follow the life of a Battle Sister, who perhaps starts ann illicit romance
Possibly. I toyed with the idea of writing about a Sister who had joined with an Inquisitor's retinue for various reasons and ended up having a relationship with one of his servents (namely a male Praetorian Marine*). Be an interesting conflict of emotions in that she's free of the strict bonds of her Order but her former life keeps her in a vice-like grip.
*No, not a Space Marine. More like a c19 Royal Marine.
Squigsquasher wrote:An interesting Black Library novel could follow the life of a Battle Sister, who perhaps starts ann illicit romance
Possibly. I toyed with the idea of writing about a Sister who had joined with an Inquisitor's retinue for various reasons and ended up having a relationship with one of his servents (namely a male Praetorian Marine*). Be an interesting conflict of emotions in that she's free of the strict bonds of her Order but her former life keeps her in a vice-like grip.
*No, not a Space Marine. More like a c19 Royal Marine.
I imagine it would go something liek this:
Preatorian Guard: "Honey, you and I..." holds her hand , she look at this with cold sight "..we have a connection." Sister is silent "Maybe it is the destiny, or it is me, but I think that we share the same felling. What do you say that we as k the Inquisitor and Cardinal for their blessings?" Sister just rise her head and look at him with her ever cold eyes and say:"No." Then she put her arm away, the Preatorian is confused:"But why?" She answered:"Because there is only the Emperor and he is ourt shield and protector. To think about anything else is heresy." Saying that she turned away and leave the sight, living Preatorian with broken heart.
Almost every Sister of Battle will have very little "free time" in exactly the same way as most Astartes don’t have, need or even want such time. However just as some Marines undertake crafts or other activities - such as the Salamanders and the Blood Angels then there may be ways in which certain Sororitas use Emperor given gifts in a similar way - creating art that reflects their own and their sisters devotion. They may also take time away from other duties to act as inspirations to Imperial Citizens especially for those in Schola Progenium who may well join their ranks.
It is sad that the Astartes and Sororitas have so much in common but are so often in conflict and do not apparently have the best opinions of each other.
The other Orders beyond the Orders Militant are likely to be much more integrated within the “normal” Imperial world/s by necessity. Sisters Hospitaliter may well spend “spare time” working in areas where they feel there are needed and those who are deserving of their mercy. Those who spend time with the Imperial Guard units on the front line may undertake some social interactions with their charges but their devotion to duty is likely to make this unlikely. Normally they held in extremely high regard by the Guard, mixed with intense curiosity of a similar nature to us gamers…..
Conversely Sisters Famulous may well have to attend parties and similar social events as part of their work – in order to understand and manipulate (for the greater good of the Imperium and in His name) their charges. Sisters Dialogous are perhaps the most likely to be as secluded as the members of the Orders Militant, except perhaps when assisting Imperial organisations such as the Inquisition or Imperial Intelligence agencies, or helping to interrogate Xenos.
Sex and Sororitas: I is not stated that the Sororitas (especially the Orders Militant) are celibate and the only GW (Black Library) publication that specifically addresses this topic states that they are not technically but also goes on to say: that few find time to the time….
It may be that the Sororitas never enshrined it in their (likely very very many) doctrines and orders. However again I would feel that there would be at the very least an aversion to such activities given how they were abused under the reign of Vandire, who had renamed them the Brides of the Emperor.
Cain and Sororitas: As noted by others, Cain is not always a reliable in universe source – although again perhaps the most controversial piece of information comes from an Inquisitor. Again though there is nothing to say she is not misinformed, especially as she is Ordo Xenos rather than Hereticus who have the stronger links.
I am a BIG fan of the Cain Archive and whilst I understand that it may not fit some views of the 40K universe, I think that the oft cited examples of its deviation are not that bad.
There is a single (perhaps aberrant) example of a retired Sister in the novels indulging discretely in what are likely prohibited activities. I agree that perhaps most Sisters would seek rightful penance for even considering such things – but again I feel the other Sisters described in the Cain novels wuld be equally outraged by her. Every other Sister described in the novels are righteous (sometimes annoying so to Cain), single-minded in their devotion. It is also notable how high the esteem for the Sisterhood is felt by pretty much every other character in the novels………..
A small number of Sisters fall victim to a immensely powerful Chaos Psyker – who It seems can overcome any ones mind – Indeed Cain is shocked by the fact that he was able to overcome: “Even the Emperors most dedicated warriors.” As soon as they are freed from his malign (and plot drive influence and their minds are their own they kill themselves in shame. Again IMO, the Grey Knights would have fared no better – probably why they did not turn up!
Cain himself is not keen on the Sororitas, mainly because he sees them as reckless and careless of their own lives but even he is forced to concede their devotion and skill at arms on several occasions – especially when they sacrifice their lives so he and his Inquisitor lover can escape!
Mr Morden wrote:... As soon as they are freed from his malign (and plot drive influence and their minds are their own they kill themselves in shame. Again IMO, the Grey Knights would have fared no better – probably why they did not turn up!
I don't think so. If a Grey Knight can withstand daemonic possession, then a second-rate psyker would probably be nothing. And Space Marines have superhuman physical AND mental endurance. I'm sure they can hold their own against someone like that.
Mr Morden wrote:... As soon as they are freed from his malign (and plot drive influence and their minds are their own they kill themselves in shame. Again IMO, the Grey Knights would have fared no better – probably why they did not turn up!
I don't think so. If a Grey Knight can withstand daemonic possession, then a second-rate psyker would probably be nothing. And Space Marines have superhuman physical AND mental endurance. I'm sure they can hold their own against someone like that.
Grey Knights would first kill Sisters then then use them as armor paint. After that they WILL be able to withstand Chaos taint and kill that Sorcerer.
Mr Morden wrote:... As soon as they are freed from his malign (and plot drive influence and their minds are their own they kill themselves in shame. Again IMO, the Grey Knights would have fared no better – probably why they did not turn up!
I don't think so. If a Grey Knight can withstand daemonic possession, then a second-rate psyker would probably be nothing. And Space Marines have superhuman physical AND mental endurance. I'm sure they can hold their own against someone like that.
Well we will never know - they did not turn upo.
Never mentioned him being 2nd rate he had the plot on his side - Grey Knights would have to have bathed in the blood of a lot more more pure Sisters to have survived intact - and even then the plot was still against them - therefore they loose.....
Well, like in real life monasteries, they don't start a naked pilow fight or a drinking party during their couple of hours of free time. They either read books (not neccessarily religious ones) or have some other hobby inside the monastery.
In the novel Helsreach, one sister used to grow roses in the garden of the temple she was stationed at. They can also do social service, like tending to the sick, translating or copying ancient texts or just pray.
People usually like to see them as grimdark nuns who are overly sexual or feminine. But in reality, they are not the Brides of the Emperor anymore, but his daughters, just like Space Marines are his sons, not his husbands.
Basically this means that they devote their entire life to the Emperor to the last second. However, this can also mean other things than just killing heretics or purging the unclean. This can also include taking care of the Emperor's people, like I have already said. In some novels, there are members who haven't picked up a bolter in years, since they have been working with the people.
And of course, there are also those members who cannot resist the call of "manflesh". Just like in real life.
There are a nuber of Orders, some less militaristic than the others. Some of them are fighting all the time, while some are only doing so when they must.
I think that it can be compared to the different ideals in the Ecclesiarchy. Some preachers are just ordinary priests trying to help the Emperor's flock, while some are fanatic and crased redemption cultists swinging around with a huge chainsaw.
forruner_mercy wrote:Aren't there groups that do not do that kind of combat?
In the Mercy Run short story, some Sister Hospitalar(?) are just wearing robes.
Yes - therre are two parts to the Sororitas - the Orders Millitant and the Orders Hospitaller (healers and combat medics), Famulous (the organisation of Households, mariages etc of important Imperial families, controlling the bloodlines) and Dialogus (scolars specalising in language, negotiation and codes)
Basically the Orders millitant is there to fight and guard the holy places and people - but the other Orders are also trained in the ways of combat - just it is not their priority.
WD Liber Sororitas wrote:As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites, the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra, or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.
It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of its doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.
Personally, I'd simply ascribe any descriptions deviating from the extreme dedication and isolation mentioned in GW's own sources to divergent author interpretation, much like Goto thinks Marines are fighting with multilasers. Like any cases of conflicting material, this is something that each of us has to decide on for him- or herself, though.
Mr Morden wrote:... As soon as they are freed from his malign (and plot drive influence and their minds are their own they kill themselves in shame. Again IMO, the Grey Knights would have fared no better – probably why they did not turn up!
I don't think so. If a Grey Knight can withstand daemonic possession, then a second-rate psyker would probably be nothing. And Space Marines have superhuman physical AND mental endurance. I'm sure they can hold their own against someone like that.
Grey Knights would first kill Sisters then then use them as armor paint. After that they WILL be able to withstand Chaos taint and kill that Sorcerer.
I really, REALLY, hate the new Codex: Grey Knights. I preferred Codex: Daemonhunters.
It's been recorded in the databases on a backwater planet of Equois III that a Dark Angels Marine and an off-duty Adepta Sororita of House-Serenity have been tasked with a mission to escort an ambassador to a vaguely designated area in Segmentum Solar. During the course of the mission, which attracted the attention of many xenos that consisted mostly of the Eldar;
witnesses and several colleagues of the two reported the pair to be drawn to each other and have engaged in heinious activity considered heretical for warriors of their status. The two were brought in and apprehended with the success of the mission. Both the Astartes and Sororita were interrogated, but managed to break loose. The Astartes was killed, but the Sister of Battle managed to escape. One of her personal aids reports that the Sister has informed her that she is pregnant.
LumenPraebeo wrote:It's been recorded in the databases on a backwater planet of Equois III that a Dark Angels Marine and an off-duty Adepta Sororita of House-Serenity have been tasked with a mission to escort an ambassador to a vaguely designated area in Segmentum Solar. During the course of the mission, which attracted the attention of many xenos that consisted mostly of the Eldar;
witnesses and several colleagues of the two reported the pair to be drawn to each other and have engaged in heinious activity considered heretical for warriors of their status. The two were brought in and apprehended with the success of the mission. Both the Astartes and Sororita were interrogated, but managed to break loose. The Astartes was killed, but the Sister of Battle managed to escape. One of her personal aids reports that the Sister has informed her that she is pregnant.
Where the hell did you get this from? An Astartes and a Sister? Pregnant? By the Dark Angel? That's not good. The Emperor will not be pleased. Not to mention Lord Azrael and the Inner Circle.
LumenPraebeo wrote:It's been recorded in the databases on a backwater planet of Equois III that a Dark Angels Marine and an off-duty Adepta Sororita of House-Serenity have been tasked with a mission to escort an ambassador to a vaguely designated area in Segmentum Solar. During the course of the mission, which attracted the attention of many xenos that consisted mostly of the Eldar;
witnesses and several colleagues of the two reported the pair to be drawn to each other and have engaged in heinious activity considered heretical for warriors of their status. The two were brought in and apprehended with the success of the mission. Both the Astartes and Sororita were interrogated, but managed to break loose. The Astartes was killed, but the Sister of Battle managed to escape. One of her personal aids reports that the Sister has informed her that she is pregnant.
Aren't Adeptus Astartes sterile? And aren't they a LITTLE BIG to be handled by ordinary women?
I believe they are. And even if they weren't, I guess their "equipment" would be well over a meter long, a fact which would cause some practical problems.
I don't know, but if you don't purge thoughts of it from your mind at once I shall set the 155th Catachan Drag Queens upon you; the most deadly (and cringeworthy) fighting force in the universe.
Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:I believe they are. And even if they weren't, I guess their "equipment" would be well over a meter long, a fact which would cause some practical problems.
O_o
They are seven and a half feet tall. You're suggesting it would be half again their height? I don't even think the Space Marine's enhanced circulatory system could handle that kind of blood loss to the brain. Assuming they stay proportional, they are only slightly taller than the bigger basketball players and you don't see them killing sports groupies on a regular basis. Certainly women survive encounters with some of the more male adult actors all the time.
She told you that you were nine inches that one time, didn't she? I knew there had to be a reason why your sense of length was so far off.
At least we can agree that an off duty sister has more fun then an off duty marine. Judging on how shiny marine armor is they must spend hours polishing it. Blood angels even more so.
Probably not. What little time Space Marines don't spend training or maintenance is devoted to self-reflection in most Chapters, although I can see the Space Wolves hunting or telling stories, and the Blood Ravens studying in their Librarium. I don't imagine active Sisters doing something different from what Space Marines do in their spare time (self-reflection, studying, etc.).
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:At least we can agree that an off duty sister has more fun then an off duty marine.
I'm not sure I would agree - aside from the fact that a Sister is "on duty" 24/7, GW's fluff makes their activities sound pretty grimdark, at least if that Canoness is to be believed.
"The purpose of life is to suffer." - that's one hell of a dogma to live by (quite literally), and a very strong glimpse at their lifestyle.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Judging on how shiny marine armor is they must spend hours polishing it. Blood angels even more so.
Meh, I guess that's what you have serfs and novices for.
Members of the Order Famulous probably engage in a certain amount of entertainment, since their duties revolve around matchmaking, checking up on the noble families, and similar activities. The ability to socialize with the nobility in their own milieau would be critical to fulfilling their duties. But I don't expect the other orders engage in too much of that. The combat arms have already been mentioned. And the other two non-combat arms (for a certain value of "non-combat", in the case of the Hospitallers, who are certainly capable of engaging in a firefight if necessary...) both have a scholarly focus, suggesting that they likely spend much of their time studying up on topics of particular interest to them.
I still stand by that the majority of marines, esp blood angels, spend their free time polishing their armor. It goes like this.
"Incoming distress signal Brother Captain." said Battle Brother Marticuis Suicles "Chaos maraders are attacking the Imperial planet Bob, the pdf tried to respond but where killed to a man"
"Not now Brother Suicles, Im polishing the gold inlays of my armor"
Well if this thread learn me something it's that Sisters of Battle are the HOTEST thing in entire Warhammer 40000 universe, with Eldar Farseers being close by.
Seriously, every fan stories I read about them it's Sisters being fall in love, having sex, being sexually tortured, being molested... only one of those I read was good, about a Sister who save little girl from an Ork who murdered her family and take the girl to it's Covenant.
For fluff for the last time:
-Off-Duty Sororitas learn, teach, prey, socialize with their fellow sisters ( you know like talk and that sort of thing ), preparing their weapons and armor for battle, helping out citizens of their world ( like today's nuns in shelters etc... ) and doing some hobby ( like that Sister with it's garden ).
Off-Duty Astartes learn, teach, prey, socialize with their fellow brothers, preparing their weapons and armor for battle and all other activites depends on Chapter ( Space Wolves like to drink and eat, Black Tempalrs love to spare, Ultramarines likes to tell stories about great deeds, Iron Hands liek to do upgrade to their body...
I think that Only Grey Knights don't have off-time activities when it comes to off-duty power armored types.
Lynata wrote:"The purpose of life is to suffer." - that's one hell of a dogma to live by (quite literally), and a very strong glimpse at their lifestyle.
To hell with that. I'm familiar with that piece from the 3rd edition rulebook, but I disregard any suggestion that it should be part of Adepta Sororitas doctrine. A willingness to suffer to achieve something - self sacrifice - is one thing. Suffering for suffering's sake is just Slaaneshi bs.
Lynata wrote:"The purpose of life is to suffer." - that's one hell of a dogma to live by (quite literally), and a very strong glimpse at their lifestyle.
To hell with that. I'm familiar with that piece from the 3rd edition rulebook, but I disregard any suggestion that it should be part of Adepta Sororitas doctrine. A willingness to suffer to achieve something - self sacrifice - is one thing. Suffering for suffering's sake is just Slaaneshi bs.
AlexHolker wrote:To hell with that. I'm familiar with that piece from the 3rd edition rulebook, but I disregard any suggestion that it should be part of Adepta Sororitas doctrine. A willingness to suffer to achieve something - self sacrifice - is one thing. Suffering for suffering's sake is just Slaaneshi bs.
They could be trying to achieve communion with the Emperor who suffered for Humanity. They could think it is their duty to suffer, for a thousand reasons ; it helps keeping idle thoughts at bay, it strengthens one's force of will...
Hey, they're religious nuts. Sanity needs not apply.
Lynata wrote:"The purpose of life is to suffer." - that's one hell of a dogma to live by (quite literally), and a very strong glimpse at their lifestyle.
To hell with that. I'm familiar with that piece from the 3rd edition rulebook, but I disregard any suggestion that it should be part of Adepta Sororitas doctrine. A willingness to suffer to achieve something - self sacrifice - is one thing. Suffering for suffering's sake is just Slaaneshi bs.
It's not suffering in the sadomasochistic sense. It's suffering so that by enduring pain and hardship you define and enhance your faith. People in the real world do it all the time. The life of a real world nun is supposed to be that of self denial and servitude. Ascetic monks. It doesn't have to be as extreme as flagellants.
You have to remember, the Cult of the Emperor has a lot in common with Christianity in its basic structure, just like everything else in 40K has its foundation in real world or other derivative fiction. The Emperor died to save humanity and now lives as a god to protect them from harm. Sounds kinda like Jesus no? The Sororitas are religious nutballs. They have "faith powers". As much as that makes almost no sense in the greater context of the 40K universe, they do have them, which means they have to be pretty damned religious. I mean, people are free to, and do, imagine them as the Adeptus Sorority with pillow fights and group showers, but the realistic depiction of them isn't nearly as sexy. They're probably mostly beastly looking. This: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Cristiane_Santos.jpg is your real world equivalent Sororitas, lol. Not some wasp waisted poster girl nymph from the 40K propaganda art.
Look you can pick apart the details all you want (died, or mortally wounded and all but dead and rotting on the Golden Throne), but the basic framework of the Cult is the same. If you can't see that, I can't help you.
After all, it wasn't Jesus's death that saved humanity, it was his willing sacrifice.
Again with the semantics. You're missing the bigger picture while you stare at the small details. The truth of the matter is, the Emperor "died" fighting Horus, and those mortal wounds were what caused him to be interred in the GOlden Throne to ascend to what is essentially a god-like status to serve as the savior of mankind. Yeah, he wasn't crucified by the Romans at the behest of angry Jews. Thanks for letting us all know. I'm glad you're on top of it. Good lord. Where's that face-slapping Ork smilie when you need him?
And it would be very easy for the Cult of the Emperor to spin the story. We know exactly what happened because we have dozens of real world books to read and tell us what happened. The average citizen of the Imperium knows only what they were told.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:People in the real world do it all the time. The life of a real world nun is supposed to be that of self denial and servitude. Ascetic monks. It doesn't have to be as extreme as flagellants.
Though flagellants are a pretty neat comparison, actually. I mean, somehow you got to go from this to this.
And for the people who deem it silly ... remember we are talking about 40k here, where everything, including religious zeal, is deliberately exaggerated for Greater Grimdark. The fact that flagellantism actually existed (or still does) in real life only makes it seem all the more plausible, with the Codex-mentioned "mortifications of the flesh" and being a pretty strong hint at it, too. Melissia's above comment regarding the purifying effect of pain originates from a GW source as well, by the way. It's from a sermon by Arch-Confessor Ganinimus as noted in one of the Sisters' codices as well as a WD article, if memory serves correctly.
Hyd's theory about achieving communion is pretty strong as well (after all, the Canoness in the rulebook did talk about "becoming one with the Emperor's eternal suffering"). I suppose we could list a number of reasons as to why it makes "sense".
@VSgt: If there were such an option, I'd upvote your recent posts in this thread.
Regarding the Sisters' faith powers - the most recent rules sadly makes this interpretation somewhat less valid (given that their benefits apply even to vehicles now), but I used to prefer thinking of them as a mixture of luck and sheer determination. Basically them being so focused on their holy duties that some of them can disregard "minor inconveniences" like grisly wounds that would have normal IG troops writhe in pain yelling for a medic, or overpowering an opponent by acting with utter disregard for their own safety. Basically, the same zeal that led to medieval Crusaders or WW2 SS units having attained a reputation for fighting to the last man (even if I'm sure that this was a little exaggerated, but you get the idea).
Like you, I feel that actual "holy powers" fit well into the setting ... though the 5E Minidex makes it somewhat hard for me to see an alternative.
Ah, I completely forgot about this new feature - thanks for reminding me.
Still, I recall we could only do this a limited amount of times, so I have a feeling it should be reserved for "posts containing valuable information deserving to be preserved for the future" rather than something where I simply agree with the contents or find it worded humorously...
(how many times can we exalt, anyways?)
Melissia wrote:Actually the idea is that pain purifies the body just as prayer purifies the mind.
The suffering isn't there for its own sake, but to help remove impurities.
And as seen in the Salamaders novels one must be vigilant lest it becomes a massocistic crutch (*)......as also happened historically. Something that I imagine the Sisterhood watch carefully for?
(*)
Spoiler:
Salamanders brand themselves (or have themslves branded) with intricate designs to remember or commorate important events - they can also wipe the slate clean in disgrace by further branding errasing these previous marks. in the novels at least one of their Chapter begins to need the pain this inflicts more and more to centre his mind whihc leads to BAD things...
Mr Morden wrote:Something that I imagine the Sisterhood watch carefully for?
Yes. Sisters are constantly vigilant for signs of corruption, more than any other faction in the Imperium save the Inquisition itself, except their vigilance polices internally unlike the inquisition.
Melissia wrote:Actually the idea is that pain purifies the body just as prayer purifies the mind.
The suffering isn't there for its own sake, but to help remove impurities.
And as seen in the Salamaders novels one must be vigilant lest it becomes a massocistic crutch (*)......as also happened historically. Something that I imagine the Sisterhood watch carefully for?
(*)
Spoiler:
Salamanders brand themselves (or have themslves branded) with intricate designs to remember or commorate important events - they can also wipe the slate clean in disgrace by further branding errasing these previous marks. in the novels at least one of their Chapter begins to need the pain this inflicts more and more to centre his mind whihc leads to BAD things...
The Imperial Fists are also sort of famous for it, using the pain glove to clear their mind.
Brother Coa wrote:What about hobbies or helping the local population?
Is there some info on that? Maybe BL novels?
In terms of "hobbies", GW material is pretty strict in that it outright claims that they either fight, train, study or pray. Though personally, I would say that the latter three things could be expanded upon, or "personalized" to an individual Sister. Some may prefer to spend countless hours in the scriptorium to study ancient holy texts, others have a habit of visiting the cloister garden or meditating in front of a saint's statue, yet others may wish to focus on their training of the ancient martial arts of the San Leor temple, and then there may be a few flagellants who seek to cleanse themselves of sins (be them real or imagined) or achieve spiritual climax and gain a vision or some such thing.
I like to believe that such things depend on a Sister's role with her Order as well as an inkling of personality left (or established!) after all the indoctrination. Like Space Marines, they probably have a daily schedule that doesn't leave much room, but I'm sure things can be arranged by gaining permission from the Superior or the Canoness. Or maybe they do even have an hour or two at their own disposal, as long as they spend it in a way that conforms to the strict rules of the Sororitas. Concerning all of this, looking to real life nuns and their daily routine in a cloister for inspiration might be worth the time.
As far as the local population is concerned, I'd say this is the area of the Orders Hospitaller, although GW sources only mention them in combination with war zones. Yet, given that the Orders Militant occasionally provide protection to pilgrim routes, it seems likely that the Hospitallers may also be found there, offering a minimum of medical aid or rations to the masses of the faithful ("drop in the ocean"-style).
Delving into licensed material, the novel "Faith & Fire" also has a mission of Hospitallers aid a bunch of malnourished/sick civilian miners on some moon.
It should also not be forgotten that the Sororitas live extremely isolated lives, so interaction with the outside world - even for benefitial purposes - would be limited to officially sanctioned assignments. You won't have some individual Sister venture outside the walls of her abbey to give food to a bunch of hobos.
Brother Coa wrote:What about hobbies or helping the local population?
With the exception of the Ciaphas Cain novel (because Sandy Mitchel cannot write a likable religiously devout character to save his life), there isn't any evidence that they have hobbies save for perhaps singing the Emperor's prayer and other things dedicated to devotion towards the emperor.
As I see it from what I have read, the actual gun totting, flamer using "Sisters of Battle" are a fairly small number compared to the over all number of the various Sororitas in the Ecclesiarchy throughout their numerous orders. So to me that means that there can be "Sisters" doing several civilian side service projects but not waste the precious training hours of the "Sisters Militant" as they are not the same individuals.
Different duties, different focus. Sister Mary Black&Decker is helping build the new orphanage while Sister Mary Heavy-Flamer is out burning witches and heretics.
Zakiriel wrote:So to me that means that there can be "Sisters" doing several civilian side service projects but not waste the precious training hours of the "Sisters Militant" as they are not the same individuals.
They send "precious hours" doing OTHER training.
And you're acting like those that aren't members oft he Orders Militant aren't actually Sisters.
If so, you're wrong. They are Sisters-- just not Sisters of Battle. They are the Sisters Hospitaller (the best medics and doctors in the Imperium bar none), Sisters Famulous (who manage the noble houses, track breeding of said houses, make sure nobles pay tithes, etc), Sisters Dialogous (by far the best omniglots in the Imperium), and so on. There's also other innumerable minor orders which have entirely separate duties.
All of these train unrelentingly for their duties, and do NOT train less than the Sisters of Battle do.
Zakiriel wrote:So to me that means that there can be "Sisters" doing several civilian side service projects but not waste the precious training hours of the "Sisters Militant" as they are not the same individuals.
They send "precious hours" doing OTHER training.
And you're acting like those that aren't members oft he Orders Militant aren't actually Sisters.
If so, you're wrong. They are Sisters-- just not Sisters of Battle. They are the Sisters Hospitaller (the best medics and doctors in the Imperium bar none), Sisters Famulous (who manage the noble houses, track breeding of said houses, make sure nobles pay tithes, etc), Sisters Dialogous (by far the best omniglots in the Imperium), and so on. There's also other innumerable minor orders which have entirely separate duties.
All of these train unrelentingly for their duties, and do NOT train less than the Sisters of Battle do.
Apothecaries are better battle-field surgeons than Sister Hospitallers, while Librarians know more and have greater access to information. The latter is thanks to the Astartes' connections to the Mechanicus, the fact that a Chapter is semi-autonomous and can keep the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition at arms-length allowing them more information that would be considered heretical in other Imperial organizations. And don't say that's good reason for the Inquisition to be suspicious (although that's a valid point) since the Emperor Himself gave the Astartes semi-autonomy during the great Crusade. The only Imperial organization above the Astartes are the High Lords of Terra, and even the Inquisition has to show restraint when dealing with the Astartes.
Tadashi wrote:Apothecaries are better battle-field surgeons than Sister Hospitallers,
No, they're just operating on someone that's harder to kill. Otherwise you might as well say Ork Painboys are the best surgeons of all.
Back to the original question, I favour the idea of portraying the Sisters more like people to better contrast them with the psycho-indoctrinated, abhuman freaks, though I don't know about the implementation.
Sisters aren't indoctrinated in the same way Astartes are, it's more of mental conditioning through repeated exposure to Ecclesiarchal sermons and such. Just as devoted (but in a different way), but not as mentally strong (not to mention physical) as Astartes.
Unlike Space Marines, Sisters didn't even have a childhood of any kind. Given that they are doing the Marines' job without benefiting from their genetical enhancements, I'm quite sure that, on average, their mental strength is above that of an Astartes - simply because the Marines don't require as much with their souped-up superhuman bodies.
Also, ...
GW homepage wrote:As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion. No one is more devoted to the cause and cult of the Emperor than they.
... which also becomes evident when you look at how many have turned rogue and/or traitor, even when you're not counting the Horus Heresy.
It is not unheard of that a Chapter Master puts his Chapter above the Imperium or even the Emperor. This would be unthinkable for a Canoness of the Adepta Sororitas.
Zakiriel wrote:So to me that means that there can be "Sisters" doing several civilian side service projects but not waste the precious training hours of the "Sisters Militant" as they are not the same individuals.
They send "precious hours" doing OTHER training.
And you're acting like those that aren't members oft he Orders Militant aren't actually Sisters.
If so, you're wrong. They are Sisters-- just not Sisters of Battle. They are the Sisters Hospitaller (the best medics and doctors in the Imperium bar none), Sisters Famulous (who manage the noble houses, track breeding of said houses, make sure nobles pay tithes, etc), Sisters Dialogous (by far the best omniglots in the Imperium), and so on. There's also other innumerable minor orders which have entirely separate duties.
All of these train unrelentingly for their duties, and do NOT train less than the Sisters of Battle do.
Apothecaries are better battle-field surgeons than Sister Hospitallers, while Librarians know more and have greater access to information. The latter is thanks to the Astartes' connections to the Mechanicus, the fact that a Chapter is semi-autonomous and can keep the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition at arms-length allowing them more information that would be considered heretical in other Imperial organizations. And don't say that's good reason for the Inquisition to be suspicious (although that's a valid point) since the Emperor Himself gave the Astartes semi-autonomy during the great Crusade. The only Imperial organization above the Astartes are the High Lords of Terra, and even the Inquisition has to show restraint when dealing with the Astartes.
I would say Apothecaries are highly specalised in dealing with the unique needs of Space Marines and their equipment and knowledge is for fixing them. They are (on the whole) highly unlikely to be treating non Astartes cassulities. They are therefore better battle surgeons thatn the Sisters for Astartes but probably not that much better for humans - they can do as they are adapatble but its not what they are trained or experienced in undertaking. Similarily treating an Astartes is going to be difficult for non Astartes.........not impossible but easy to make mistakes.
The Inquisiton show restraint with a number of organisations - including the Adeptus Mechanicus - mainly because they are trying to balance possible problems with causing larger ones but if (and its often a big if) they can gain another evidence and perhaps more importantly influence in other parties( other Chapters, AM, Imperial Navy / Guard, Sisters) they have as much power over the Astartes as anyone else. Exercising it is more problematic...... otherwise they just file the reports so they can build a stronger case is say a few hundred years or more.
Lynata wrote:Coincidentally, the Inquisition likes to turn to the Sisters to do this.
Wonderful piece of irony that. Always makes me smile to remember that for all their arrogance & independance, the Astartes still fall under the scrutiny of the Inquisition.
@Melissia: If you ask me, Sandy Mitchell's inability to write a likeable religiously devout character is no fault of his own-to me, the term "likeable religiously devout character" is an oxymoron, like "fun run" or "millitary intelligence".
Of course, if the Inquisitor's case falls through, for the sake of appearances, he/she gets tried for sedition by the Ordo Hereticus. Goes both ways...
Coincidentally, most Chapter Masters hold themselves directly under the Emperor; Index Astartes states that Guilliman decreed that a Chapter Master answer only to the Emperor, making him equal to a High Lord or an Inquisitor. And those Chapter Masters who do otherwise are the ones that end up getting purged or going renegade.
Oh and the Emperor would probably consider the Sisters a failure to his ideals. The Astartes venerate the Emperor and disdain the Ecclesiarchy, while the Sororitas follow the Ecclesiarchy and worship the Emperor. He probably tolerates them and the Inquisition only because he needs to. The Astartes DO NOT worship the Emperor, something the Emperor wanted everyone to do. The only ones left in 40k who follow the Emperor's Imperial Truth (in a lesser fashion) are the Astartes.
Lynata wrote:Unlike Space Marines, Sisters didn't even have a childhood of any kind.
That's just crazy. They might often be orphans, but there's no way you can say spending their childhood in the Schola doesn't count, but roaming around a postapocalyptic wasteland fighting mutants does.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure in the Schola they have a bit of 'fun'. After all, the Schola is a mixed-sex school, right? And IMO the proctors sent to the Schola, whether Guard, Navy, Sisters, etc. are the ones who are the most jaded veterans. If Human nature is Human nature, those are usually the ones most removed from the stereotype. They'd probably cut the students more slack than we would expect.
Tadashi wrote:Oh and the Emperor would probably consider the Sisters a failure to his ideals.
Indeed. Ironically, this is not how the Imperium at large thinks, which makes the Marines the "odd man out". Part of the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium. Or the Astartes' epicness as the last bastion of the Emperor's true will. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Tadashi wrote:Yeah, I'm pretty sure in the Schola they have a bit of 'fun'. After all, the Schola is a mixed-sex school, right?
No. Unless you want to put Sandy Mitchell's uninformed blather above what studio material actually says:
"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain."
The Schola is like a terrorist training camp for kids. Drill Abbots beat the crap out of the children and daily routine is strictly regulated. Only the most zealous, intelligent and physically capable get selected to join the Storm Trooper Regiment or one of the Sororitas Orders. So I daresay that, yes, a Feral Worlder kid has had a lot more fun in his life. Which is why Marines are susceptible to corruption: They can remember what they are missing out on. The Sisters don't.
If you want a real life example, I recommend watching the movie "Before the Fall", which tells the story of two students from one of Hitler's elite boarding schools, the NaPolA-program.
Here's a trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBcPXnLR6Oc
The only difference being that the kids who get sent to the Schola to train for Sororitas membership are way younger, hence the indoctrination being even deeper.
Oh, they probably have some "fun". But not with what you may think. The little girls may experience pride and satisfaction for scoring high in lasgun drills or receiving the occasional praise from their Drill Abbess. But they don't play around like normal kids would, and all the fun is balanced with a lot of pain and humiliation.
Of course, that's only regarding what the studio material says. Anyone is free to prefer a different interpretation, such as Mitchell's satire, or make up his own.
AlexHolker wrote:Where is that from? I've never read it before.
That bit is from the 2E SoB Codex - it contained a lot more fluff on the Ecclesiarchy and Sororitas in general (including detailed numbers of the Major Orders' strength, including how many are trained as Seraphim), compared to the WH book where the Sisterhood had to share the pagecount with the Inquisition, which meant that only the basics could be covered. Apart from C:WH having a lot more shiny pictures and less text on top of it.
And whilst we are in the process of digging up the old books, here's a snippet from WD #211, which basically served to prepare people for said Codex:
"The Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant have many strengths. They are recruited from the fastest, strongest and most adept individuals to be raised by the Schola Progenium. Their training is total, honed across the millennia to ensure that every Battle Sister is more than a match for almost any foe. Their weapons and armour are amongst the best the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce. These factors alone would make the Battle Sisters a mighty weapon in the Emperor's arsenal, but that is not all.
The Battle Sisters are utterly dedicated to the Emperor. Their one purpose is to strive for this honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving; they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure, there is only prayer and war. There is nothing an enemy could offer them, they are impossible to bribe and totally incorruptible.
The Battle Sisters are one of the few bastions standing between humanity and extinction. The Sororitas must defeat alien dominance, rogue psykers, daemonic influence, heretics, blasphemers and apostates, or everything the Emperor has striven to build and protect will be lost..."
Ah, I wouldn't generalize in either direction - though there are some interesting studies about the female anatomy giving women a small advantage in hands/eye coordination (useful for ranged combat) or increasing their resistance against high G-forces. Just like men tend to be bigger and stronger, which is useful in melee or enables them to carry more gear, but can also become a drawback in certain situations (being a bigger target, not fitting through every tiny hole, etc).
Faith and spirituality, however, I would regard as depending entirely on how someone was raised, what he or she was taught and how strong the indoctrination was. If the Space Marines would be raised like the Sisters, perhaps they'd be more reliable as well. I would believe the Black Templars have a small advantage due to their strict lifestyle, for example.
There's also stuff like maternal instincts or hormones which may factor into the above in affecting the development of personality, but I'm not entirely sure to what degree this would influence the end result.
Tadashi wrote:Apothecaries are better battle-field surgeons than Sister Hospitallers
Hahahaha.
No. Not even CLOSE.
The feats of medicine that the Sisters Hospitaller accomplish are described as nothing short of miraculous. They are celebrated across the Imperium as saintly angels of mercy because of their skill and dedication in the healing arts.
And this while Sisters Hospitaller operate on the frail human body-- while Apothecaries operate on the vastly more durable and hardy Astartes body. Apothecaries have it easy.
Tadashi wrote:while Librarians know more and have greater access to information.
The non-militant orders have access to the archives of the Inquisition.
The inquisition knows more than the Astartes.
What Astartes knows a hundred languages, including alien ones, and understands the very concept of language so well that they can quickly learn new ones merely by listening to a conversation? (hint: none of them)? This is something the Dialogous do, which also means that they know far more about both Imperial and xenos culture than Astartes do because of it.
Squigsquasher wrote:@Melissia: If you ask me, Sandy Mitchell's inability to write a likeable religiously devout character is no fault of his own-to me, the term "likeable religiously devout character" is an oxymoron, like "fun run" or "millitary intelligence".
There's a likable religiously devout character in the Gaunt's Ghosts books.
And in other places as well. One can be devout without being an arsehole.
Henners91 wrote:They spend their time straightening their hair, applying makeup, swapping stories, pillow-fighting, giggling, engaging in various 'sorority-related' antics, getting visited by the Guardsmen from across the lake...
purplefood wrote:
The Sisters in Last Stand don't really count. Once they were in their right minds they topped themselves.
Then we won't count Cain as valid source for Sisters then glad to see that we agree.
Its as valid as any other BL book - just depends if you agree with it or not - same with the codexes - I don't agree with the new Grey Knights codex background and not happy with all of the Necrons so I ignore when wirting my own stuff. However its still canon its somehting oyu like or not.
The ones mind controlled in Last Stand fit in perfectly with previous canon - its also worth noting that whilst Cain is expecting Controlled or Chaos Marines he is shocked that the Psyker has the sheer power to control Sisters.
There is only one Sisters character that causes problems with canon (and we all know about that one)
ALL of the many others described are played exactly as you would expect from the Sisterhood - formidable and fanatical fighters, being looked upon with with awe and respect by even hardened Guard veterans (Cain is an exception to this) They may be a bit gung ho but again that fits and they are good enough to go to toe to toe with Genestealers and the like.
Even considering its a Cain novel they don't get described as sexy young women for him to seduce (or equally be seduced by, to be fair), whereas we have had babe Inqusitors, Adeptus Mechanicus, Guard and Navy officers (and nothing worng with that).
Tadashi wrote:Oh and the Emperor would probably consider the Sisters a failure to his ideals.
Indeed. Ironically, this is not how the Imperium at large thinks, which makes the Marines the "odd man out". Part of the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millennium. Or the Astartes' epicness as the last bastion of the Emperor's true will. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Well, the Astartes are bound to follow the High Lords even if their Chapter Masters are equals to them. The High Lords are basically the same Council of Terra from the Horus Heresy. The Astartes probably don't care what the Imperium thinks about them. After all, when the day comes that tthe Imperium falls, the Astartes would probably be the only ones left standing, apart from the Mechanicus. They're the only ones capable of operating independently, unlike the rest of the Imperium. The Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition would fall apart once their 'god' dies. The Astartes will just say 'tsk, tsk. We'll just wait for the Master to come back. In the meantime, we'll keep OUR worlds safe.'.
Melissia wrote:
Tadashi wrote:while Librarians know more and have greater access to information.
The non-militant orders have access to the archives of the Inquisition.
The inquisition knows more than the Astartes.
What Astartes knows a hundred languages, including alien ones, and understands the very concept of language so well that they can quickly learn new ones merely by listening to a conversation? (hint: none of them)? This is something the Dialogous do, which also means that they know far more about both Imperial and xenos culture than Astartes do because of it.
Only two. The pre-Heresy Thousand Sons Legion and the Blood Ravens Chapter. And the Grey Knights are the only ones sanctioned to speak the True Names of the Great Enemy's minions, even if the Malleus knows it as well.
Celtic Strike wrote: Not like they get vacation time. That's Guard talk!
The guardsmen that live to see the end of their first campaign, are immedietely shipped off to the next, and the then the next, and maybe they get garrison duty on some crappy planet...until they're shipped off to the next. I don't really think va-cay is in a guardsman's vocabulary.
Jefffar wrote:and in the Space Wolves Codex it mention residents of Hive Worlds working 20 hour days, even the children.
Only the Imperium's wealthy and social elite have anything resembling what might be considered free time.
As ever depends on the planet - some worlds are better than others..........
Whilst the Astartes are reasonably self sufficient - many of the Chapters would find themselves in difficulty without the support of the Adeptus Mechanicus - same as the Mechanicus needs the Imperium to deliver resources and maintain some degree of peace for them to operate. Everything is interlinked IMO - remove one or more supports and the whole thing begins to collapse.
I think its better to say that the Astartes and Sisterhood are very different and both exceptional at what they do
I'd say food is something that could be dealt with during the shifts in the form of breaks in some huge mess hall. Maybe the food is even part of the wage - this is how it was done in a lot of mining camps in our real world, too. And then there will have to be time to attend to the Confessor's services, too.
Coincidentally:
"Some children started work at 2 in the morning and stayed below ground for 18 hours. Children working on the surface, sorting coal, at least saw daylight and breathed fresh air."
-- source: BBC
The whole Hive thing smells like being inspired by industrial working conditions during the Victorian age, anyways. From history class, I remember having read a lot of grisly stuff about how manufactoriums were run back then.
In some parts of the world, this remains an issue up to this very day:
"We have to work too hard and I am always tired. It's like being in the army. They make us stand still for hours. If we move, we are punished by being made to stand still for longer…We have to work overtime if we are told to and can only go back to the dormitories when our boss gives us permission…If they ask for overtime we must do it. After working 15 hours until 11:30pm, we feel so tired."
-- source: Mail on Sunday
But as has already been mentioned, this won't be the norm for every single planet of the Imperium. I definitively see this being likely for the worker class on heavily industrialized Hive worlds, but not so much on Agri- or Shrine Worlds. Not to mention Feral ones.
The twenty hour days things, if based on a 24 hour cycle (since nearly every planet would have a different rotational period than Earth) are supposed to sound really brutal, but in reality aren't plausible. There's just no way that the human body would continue to function getting three or less hours of sleep (assuming there is some kind of transit time to the workplace) per day. It wouldn't even be efficient because the workers, unless their job was incredibly simple, would become exhausted and make errors. The rate of workers consumed (killed) by this kind of process would be too great to justify its use.
If the world has a significantly longer day/night cycle, a 20 hour work day might be possible assuming the body is subsequently allowed to get enough sleep to continue functioning. We have adapted to the quirks of Earth. It's entirely possible for the body to evolve to a longer cycle, in theory.
Indeed, more likely than not they'd have scheduled nine hour sleeping periods (with one hour extra for dinner and breakfast) and one hour rest/lunch period, with the other ten hours working or going to work. On one day a week (probably) they likely have extended rest, at least long enough for mass..
They work the workers hard there's no doubt about that, but not debilitatingly so. After all, the governors have to pay taxes, and dead/effectively dead workers don't help them do that.
And why is it so hard to imagine that people of the Imperium don't have free time?
They work like us, live like us... only difference is that their universe is much more darker then ours. You don't know what is next thing that is going to eat, kill, torture you.
9 hour rest periods? Not even I get to sleep that much.
When we had children working 18 hour shifts in Victorian England, and we have soldiers not getting more than 4 hours of sleep on an aircraft carrier in peacetime today, I find it easy to believe that grown people work 20 hour shifts in Grimdark 40k. Though the argument about the planet having a couple more hours per day than Earth is a valid one.
Lynata wrote:9 hour rest periods? Not even I get to sleep that much.
Rest != sleep.
Nine hours a day of not working directly on their jobs. This means that they have nine hours to do laundry, bathe, sleep, eat, clean up dishes, etc. And that without the extra equipment that we modern folk have (because washing machines and dishwashers are likely only for the middle class and rich of the Imperium, not that much unlike IRL).
Really, they'd be lucky to get six hours of sleep, and that while likely physically needing more.
But none of this "work them to death" thing. That is not productive or efficient. Work them hard, but no so hard that they literally cannot continue work the next week without collapsing. That is bad for productivity, and thus bad for the governor's ability to pay taxes and to earn money on his/her own taxes on exports.
Why would the governor care? He has more labourers than he needs anyway. If they are too tired to work efficiently, they are too tired to plot rebellion. Best give them another 2 hours community service work on top of their time in the factories to make extra sure.
Because s/he has to pay taxes or be assassinated in a very painful way to be set as an example to the next sod that takes his/her place.
Jefffar wrote:He has more labourers than he needs anyway.
But not enough, and dead laborers have to be replaced by ones which are not trained and cannot do the job as efficiently; this takes time and cuts down on productivity, which harms the governor's ability to pay his/her taxes.
The governors of the Imperium are not all-powerful individuals-- powerful yes, but still they must obey two simple rules. Make sure their planet worships the Emperor, and pay their fething taxes owed to the Imperium. This concerns the latter. If they fail in it, the Imperium will gladly kill them and replace them with someone more suited to the task.
Jefffar wrote:Why would the governor care? He has more labourers than he needs anyway. If they are too tired to work efficiently, they are too tired to plot rebellion. Best give them another 2 hours community service work on top of their time in the factories to make extra sure.
They probably don't have more workers than they need. Melissia and I don't agree on a lot, lol, but this is a pretty easy concept. The human body simply will not function on zero sleep and given the Imperium's paranoid stance on science and thought, it's fair certain that they aren't growing new people in vats in too many places, so those workers still have to have enough energy to go home and get their sexy time on in order to create the next generation of workers for the Emprah.
Yeah, life in the Imperium can be pretty hard. Yeah, on a lot of planets, it's not all that fun and exciting. But there are still simple biological truths that have to be accepted. The human body requires a certain amount of sleep. In certain situations, I could and did expect my Marines (and was expected myself) to be able to function for a few days on extremely limited sleep. But there's no way they would be able to function on three or less hours for long periods of time, let alone their entire enlistments, lol. And these were guys in good shape, not some sedentary, harried, overworked factory slog. And that's just their physical health, let alone mental health. I don't know which navy was working sailors 20 hours a day, but it sure wasn't the American one, and I can't remember any of the Royals I met looking like whip driven zombies. Did you serve in the Chinese Navy Lynata?
Unless work is extremely unskilled, it's inefficient to replace people over and over, constantly training and retraining. The Imperium is going to need all kinds of laborers, and not all of them are going to be doing something as easy as breaking big rocks into little rocks and pushing the same button over and over.
Besides, they can just use criminals to break big rocks in to little rocks. It's not like the imperium would just sit around with all those human resources and not strip mine them.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Did you serve in the Chinese Navy Lynata?
Nah, German Air Force. But I do recall having heard and seen the "four hours of sleep" a lot when watching and reading documentations about life onboard an aircraft carrier.
David Allen describes his work in a matter-of-fact tone, but it sounds epic. The Sherman Park native and Navy seaman is a cook on an aircraft carrier, the USS George Washington. He and 39 others prepare 18,000 to 20,000 meals a day.
That’s a lot of potatoes. Allen is feeding four meals a day to about 5,500 people, about as many as live in Waupaca, only younger, more male and with a larger appetite. “You get on average four hours of sleep a night,” said Allen. “You get worn out.” -- http://patrickmcilheran.wordpress.com/category/education/
As I was looking for something like the above quote I also noticed that it does not only happen in the Navy, though:
A guard cycle was four hours on and four hours off for twenty- four hours. When we were off, we usually filled sand bags and helped maintain our position. During this twenty-four hour period, we usually would get about three to four hours sleep. -- http://www.themilitaryview.com/?q=node/168
Of course all of that isn't really healthy, but you can do it. Just like those children with their 18 hour shifts did. And when stuff like that happened or still happens in our real world ... again, why would it seem out of place in a setting like 40k? A setting where rushing conscripts over a mine field to clear a path for tanks is considered an acceptable military tactic, where the population of entire cities get burned because of a minor difference in religious dogma, where Hive nobility hunts commoners for sport, where giant cannons are manually loaded by a hundred crewmen pulling a two-storey projectile into the gun barrel via giant chains? A human life is worth nothing to the Imperium, and on Hive Worlds where the population is especially vast, a short lifespan due to people being overworked in addition to generally living in a polluted environment and not having a lot of good food to eat would simply be regarded as a convenient means of keeping population numbers in check. 40k simply is as silly as that. Actually, counting all the fluff, I would find this to be amongst the slightly more believable things I've read so far...
Just my interpretation, though. Worst case, we'll just agree to disagree.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Unless work is extremely unskilled, it's inefficient to replace people over and over, constantly training and retraining. The Imperium is going to need all kinds of laborers, and not all of them are going to be doing something as easy as breaking big rocks into little rocks and pushing the same button over and over.
That much is true, but it is my opinion that the majority of the worker class on a Hive World is comparatively unskilled. I see it as a vast crowd of people penned up in giant manufactoriums a bit like this and this. The skilled ones would be the Tech-Priests who show them the two or three steps of work they will then replicate throughout the entire day as whatever they were working on gets passed on to the next guy in the assembly line. I also don't think it is out of the question that you have workers with menial tasks such as simply pulling a lever over and over again. Though I imagine the foremen would know a bit more, too.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Did you serve in the Chinese Navy Lynata?
Nah, German Air Force. But I do recall having heard and seen the "four hours of sleep" a lot when watching and reading documentations about life onboard an aircraft carrier.
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I'm pretty sure when they're not killing heretics they spend their remaining time wishing they were still doing it.
Also, don't understand why people can't fathom why others see the sex appeal in sisters. Besides the obvious "people have different interests, deal with it", you have these women who are quite attractive based on a good portion of the artwork, and who use guns and anger to smite things all the live long day. No different than an action movie heroine.
Necroshea wrote:I'm pretty sure when they're not killing heretics they spend their remaining time wishing they were still doing it.
Also, don't understand why people can't fathom why others see the sex appeal in sisters. Besides the obvious "people have different interests, deal with it", you have these women who are quite attractive based on a good portion of the artwork, and who use guns and anger to smite things all the live long day. No different than an action movie heroine.
This. Oh, and Tadashi, now that I'm on holiday, I've given it a thought and decided I'm going to write the fan-fic.
Fifteen minutes. That's all we Astartes get. Fifteen minutes. That's barely enough time to run down to the canteen, buy a sandwich, coke and a packet of crisps and eat them before its back to the humdrum purging of many heretics.
smudgethekat wrote:Fifteen minutes. That's all we Astartes get. Fifteen minutes. That's barely enough time to run down to the canteen, buy a sandwich, coke and a packet of crisps and eat them before its back to the humdrum purging of many heretics.
Since when Space Marines have free time? And 15 minutes to that?
I thought that in war times they can go weeks without sleep or food and water?
I've read through this. And I keep seeing people harping about Space Marines never having any free time and clearly never doing anything out of sorts.
And yet right up there in big print with an official codex of their own are Space Wolves.
We know they have piss ups on a regular basis.
We know they drink things dry, have feasts, tell sagas and generally live like a bunch of ruffian space vikings would.
Right there we have an example defying the canonical norm...whilst being canon in itself!
DarkStarSabre wrote:I've read through this. And I keep seeing people harping about Space Marines never having any free time and clearly never doing anything out of sorts.
And yet right up there in big print with an official codex of their own are Space Wolves.
We know they have piss ups on a regular basis.
We know they drink things dry, have feasts, tell sagas and generally live like a bunch of ruffian space vikings would.
Right there we have an example defying the canonical norm...whilst being canon in itself!
Then it depends on Chapter in question.
I doubt very much that Grey Knights or Blood Angels do that things.
Space Wolves are Space Wolves. They're pretty much the Hipster Marines in every way. The only Chapter able to wipe the floor with an entire Segmentum worth of Imperial Navy, having a couple hundred Marines hold their position against millions of Guardsmen, and flipping off the Inquisition without any fear of consequences whatsoever. They are also heavily drinking philosopher-pranksters who are the bestest warriors of the entire galaxy, and they are the most popular army in the Imperium in spite of having fought and crushed everyone else in the past.
For what it's worth, any kind of debate involving standards and conventions amongst the Space Marines should never involve anything from or about the Space Wolves.
Brother Coa wrote:Since when Space Marines have free time? And 15 minutes to that?
I thought that in war times they can go weeks without sleep or food and water?
That's from the "daily schedule" that was published in ... I think it was the 3E Marine Codex? I thought it was rather fitting. The 15 minutes were noted to be reserved for "self-reflection, thinking about one's role in the Imperium and the Emperor's glory", though the book also said that some Chapters did away with them completely because they regarded it as luxury. Heh.
Necroshea wrote:Also, don't understand why people can't fathom why others see the sex appeal in sisters. Besides the obvious "people have different interests, deal with it", you have these women who are quite attractive based on a good portion of the artwork, and who use guns and anger to smite things all the live long day. No different than an action movie heroine.
I'd have to agree there; the sexual appeal is pretty apparent, and as such a certain interest shouldn't be condemned. I sure have a lot of, uh, "impure" images on my harddrive as well. The only thing that disturbs me is when the Sisters' very role gets warped and twisted into that of victims of their gender by overly sexualized "fanart", ranging from these ridiculous high heels all the way to that infamous Marine+Sister pr0n or Slaneeshi rape depictions.
Brother Coa wrote:Since when Space Marines have free time? And 15 minutes to that?
I thought that in war times they can go weeks without sleep or food and water?
That's from the "daily schedule" that was published in ... I think it was the 3E Marine Codex? I thought it was rather fitting. The 15 minutes were noted to be reserved for "self-reflection, thinking about one's role in the Imperium and the Emperor's glory", though the book also said that some Chapters did away with them completely because they regarded it as luxury. Heh.
That doesn't sound like relaxation to me, if my free 15 minutes involves thinking about Emperor ( that is what I usually do in battle, while preparing for battle, after battle... ).
And why they need free time? They are holy warriors of Mankind, they only need their R.E.M sleep from time to time and that's all.
Lynata wrote:
Necroshea wrote:Also, don't understand why people can't fathom why others see the sex appeal in sisters. Besides the obvious "people have different interests, deal with it", you have these women who are quite attractive based on a good portion of the artwork, and who use guns and anger to smite things all the live long day. No different than an action movie heroine.
I'd have to agree there; the sexual appeal is pretty apparent, and as such a certain interest shouldn't be condemned. I sure have a lot of, uh, "impure" images on my harddrive as well. The only thing that disturbs me is when the Sisters' very role gets warped and twisted into that of victims of their gender by overly sexualized "fanart", ranging from these ridiculous high heels all the way to that infamous Marine+Sister pr0n or Slaneeshi rape depictions.
That's the general rule, the more beautiful and pure something is - the more people want it corrupt and abused.
Spoiler:
And you didn't see Final Felatio Sororita yet, thank the Emepror.
They still have training and prayer as duties, and when they're not training or praying, they're talking about training or prayer, or eating or sleeping...
They still have training and prayer as duties, and when they're not training or praying, they're talking about training or prayer, or eating or sleeping...
It's a very dedicated life.
Having to stay in the convent between patrols doesn't mean they're not off duty.
I consider them not wearing power armour and holding a bolter off duty.
im2randomghgh wrote:I consider them not wearing power armour and holding a bolter off duty.
You'd be wrong, then, especially from their point of view. Sisters don't see themselves as "off-duty" when they aren't in power armor. They're just doing a different kind of duty, that of training and prayer (which to them are one and the same).
Lynata wrote:For what it's worth, any kind of debate involving standards and conventions amongst the Space Marines should never involve anything from or about the Space Wolves.
And why not? The odd one out still exists. Stands to reason there are probably some 'looser' Orders and Chapters out there. Hell, when the big names fluctuate that much it's got to be a sign.
Space Wolves - Space Vikings! Drinking, fighting, drinking, singing.
Dark Angels - Buggering off at the drop of a hat, much to their allies' surprise!
Blood Angels - Some are sane, others, like the Flesh Tears....er....aren't.
Why wouldn't there be an Order or at least a few sub-orders of Sisters that are much more lenient or relaxed with their ways, hmm? We already have SM Chapters that are. We have IG Regiments that are. Hell, there's even eccentric Necrons!
im2randomghgh wrote:I consider them not wearing power armour and holding a bolter off duty.
You'd be wrong, then, especially from their point of view. Sisters don't see themselves as "off-duty" when they aren't in power armor. They're just doing a different kind of duty, that of training and prayer (which to them are one and the same).
Just I see them a bit like soldiers-returning to the barracks for the day counts as off duty, even if they still have religious functions to attend.
DarkStarSabre wrote:Why wouldn't there be an Order or at least a few sub-orders of Sisters that are much more lenient or relaxed with their ways, hmm?
Because that has been flatly ruled out in the Sisters' fluff.
At least if you go by studio material such as the Codices and White Dwarf articles. Which of course you don't have to, but it should still be mentioned.
Because that has been flatly ruled out in the Sisters' fluff.
At least if you go by studio material such as the Codices and White Dwarf articles. Which of course you don't have to, but it should still be mentioned.
According to that same material all Lizardmen in Fantasy are blue. Which is complete BS as prior to that Lizardmen could be shades of green, brown, reds, yellows, oranges....
Fluff is what you make of it to be frank. There are likely sub-orders and orders that break away from the norm. Unless of course Sisters are destined to become the number 1 GK bathing supplement, right next to Head and Shoulders.
Because that has been flatly ruled out in the Sisters' fluff.
At least if you go by studio material such as the Codices and White Dwarf articles. Which of course you don't have to, but it should still be mentioned.
According to that same material all Lizardmen in Fantasy are blue. Which is complete BS as prior to that Lizardmen could be shades of green, brown, reds, yellows, oranges....
Fluff is what you make of it to be frank. There are likely sub-orders and orders that break away from the norm. Unless of course Sisters are destined to become the number 1 GK bathing supplement, right next to Head and PAULDRONS.
DarkStarSabre wrote:Fluff is what you make of it to be frank.
Hence me saying that it's up to you. For what it's worth, you can also do Female Space Marines, that's just as valid as these supposed Sisters of Slack.
Some people just prefer staying more in line with what they've grown up with, how they grew to like a faction. And for me, it's how GW intended the Sisters, how the studio writers described them to me via their print material. Not to mention that straying too far from a certain "common ground" will also remove any kind of compatibility. You can't just remove an aspect of the Sisterhood and expect the entire structure to hold up as well as before in the setting as a whole. Background works like a Jenga tower, you see. Change too much and it all comes tumbling down.
I also don't recall ever having read about Lizardmen in an SoB article.
Don't go there. Don't get me started on GW's 'All Lizardmen are blue' proclamations.
Especially after a 5th edition Lizard army that was reds and greens.
Especially after a 6th edition Lizard army that was greens with some purples.
Especially after a current 7th/8th edition Lizard army that is browns and blacks!
GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
Back on topic....
Eh, it all depends in the end. Fluff changes that drastically anyway, so what may be true now wasn't 3 years ago and won't be in a year's time.
Hell, the last SM codex shook it up proper (as they all now want to be Ultramarines, so very much).
All this talk about alternate orders of Sisters of Battle and the Space Wolves having their own code and . . .
Well now I can't help but think of creating a female auxiliary for the Space Wolves who party just as hard as they do. They'll count as Sisters of Battle, but call themselves the Space B*tches.
DarkStarSabre wrote:Fluff changes that drastically anyway, so what may be true now wasn't 3 years ago and won't be in a year's time.
Whilst that was true for some things, it was not for the Sororitas. Hell, as GW introduced the Witch Hunters Codex they even gave a statement saying that everything you've ever read about the Sisters is still in effect, up to and including the little bits in the original Rogue Trader rulebook. Now that's consistency!
Too bad that this consistency is not applied outside the walls of the studio, and that even GW has changed a few details with the last WD Minidex. Small details, but unnecessary and somewhat frustrating (for me) nonetheless.
I would also argue that there's a difference between simply sticking to an old version of a faction or completely inventing a new one that doesn't quite fit in with the rest - but it'd still be up to you. Lack of canon means anything goes, and just because *I* don't like it and think it violates the very spirit of the army doesn't mean anything. The decision of how much one wants to make his own creation fit into other pre-existing stuff rests entirely on the writer.
Brother Coa wrote:One novel would be nice, we already have to much HH and Marine novels...
"Hammer & Anvil", the sequel to "Faith & Fire" was released a few weeks ago. Sister Miriya is starting to become a recurring character in the licensed material, this is her third appearance already.
DarkStarSabre wrote:We already have SM Chapters that are. We have IG Regiments that are. Hell, there's even eccentric Necrons!
Because Sisters aren't Space Marines, and Sisters aren't Imperial Guard, and Sisters aren't Necrons?
im2randomghgh wrote:Just I see them a bit like soldiers-returning to the barracks for the day counts as off duty, even if they still have religious functions to attend.
You can see them that way, but you'd be wrong.
Training and prayer to a Sister are the same thing essentially. It is nothing at all like a soldier going to church in his off hours.
But they are human and humans are all about being messed up and generally all over the place. It's sort of what we do. (Well, not me. Obviously. I am some bizarre Tyranid-Lizardman Wreck Gar, obviously.)
DarkStarSabre wrote:But they are human and humans are all about being messed up and generally all over the place. It's sort of what we do.
Well, maybe you can find us a nun convent in our real world that works as chilled as that, since obviously it must exist.
Brother Coa wrote:But I don't have the money now, and even if I had I had to wait for like 2 months to receive a book.
Thank you, I will order "Faith & Fire" to. :thunbsup:
Gladly! I'm sure you will like it.
"Red & Black" is nice, too. A bit predictable and they could have use more voices, but still a fittingly grimdark ending.
Also, "Daemonifuge" is Print on Demand now.
... and this makes them exactly identical to every other human how?
Oh wait, it doesn't.
Sisters are, for the most part, a mostly monolithic group for better or worse, and are one of the few armies in 40k that can claim that descriptor. That is to say, the standardized upbringing and training at the Schola Progenium does not lend itself much to variation.
DarkStarSabre wrote:But they are human and humans are all about being messed up and generally all over the place.
Now that's not fair, Imperials are not guilty because they fight for survival for over 10.000 years and are little xenophobic.
Sisters are unique, because they are holy warriors. Completely devoted to their cause, witch brings them above ordinary Humans and in ranks of Astartes themselves.
Think about them as mix of Crusaders and Joan of Arcs in Gothic inspired space.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Did you serve in the Chinese Navy Lynata?
Nah, German Air Force. But I do recall having heard and seen the "four hours of sleep" a lot when watching and reading documentations about life onboard an aircraft carrier.
David Allen describes his work in a matter-of-fact tone, but it sounds epic. The Sherman Park native and Navy seaman is a cook on an aircraft carrier, the USS George Washington. He and 39 others prepare 18,000 to 20,000 meals a day.
That’s a lot of potatoes. Allen is feeding four meals a day to about 5,500 people, about as many as live in Waupaca, only younger, more male and with a larger appetite. “You get on average four hours of sleep a night,” said Allen. “You get worn out.” -- http://patrickmcilheran.wordpress.com/category/education/
As I was looking for something like the above quote I also noticed that it does not only happen in the Navy, though:
A guard cycle was four hours on and four hours off for twenty- four hours. When we were off, we usually filled sand bags and helped maintain our position. During this twenty-four hour period, we usually would get about three to four hours sleep. -- http://www.themilitaryview.com/?q=node/168
The Marine was talking about one day out of a three day cycle in a combat zone. I'm throwing the bs flag on the Navy one. The ship's CO would lose his career if that story was true and came to light. There's more to that interview that wasn't included, specifically to make it sound harder and more noble. I mean, it's a story about a cook on a ship. Not an ignoble profession by any means, my grandfather was a ship's cook in WW2. But it's not exciting either. Gotta spice up your "hometown hero" stories somehow. Nobody wants to read about how Johnny wears an apron and paper hat all day and sleeps in the middle bunk in a room with a bunch of other dudes.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Marine was talking about one day out of a three day cycle in a combat zone.
Because 5-6 hours on day 2 are so much better.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm throwing the bs flag on the Navy one. The ship's CO would lose his career if that story was true and came to light.
Google it, that's not an isolated case - though it is more common in wartimes and also seems to depend on the post you have.
"The results, displayed in Figure 4, show that individuals who worked belowdecks (and never saw daylight) received 7.35 hours of sleep, while those Sailors who worked topside averaged only 4.72 hours of sleep per day (t = 6.19, p < 0.001)."
-- http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a550390.pdf
DTIC is a DoD website, by the way. Then again, I don't know what your sources are regarding the average amount of sleep of the various groups of uniformed personnel.
Sisters are, for the most part, a mostly monolithic group for better or worse, and are one of the few armies in 40k that can claim that descriptor. That is to say, the standardized upbringing and training at the Schola Progenium does not lend itself much to variation.
And whatever there's left in them that we'd recognize as human is probably what earns them all those prayer beads, said to symbolize penance for some sin or other. You think "hot sister", she thinks "I must seek penance for giving fuel to sinful thoughts in that weak person". You think one can have a day off, she thinks it's a sin to sit idle when there's the Emperor's work to be done. That's not to say they don't sin - just that they'll consider even minor infractions as something to report themself for and receive penance. A sister will have to be pretty badly shaken before she'll engage in anything we modern people would consider sinful, or even frivolous... unless it's her duty in the name of the Emperor ofc.
I don't know. Maybe they just sit around and talk gossip about each other like regular human women. Or maybe they talk about the newest boots they have for sale at Nordstroms. Or the scarf they saw at abercrombie for 45$. Or that dress at Express that was on sale for 215$.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Marine was talking about one day out of a three day cycle in a combat zone.
Because 5-6 hours on day 2 are so much better.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I'm throwing the bs flag on the Navy one. The ship's CO would lose his career if that story was true and came to light.
Google it, that's not an isolated case - though it is more common in wartimes and also seems to depend on the post you have.
"The results, displayed in Figure 4, show that individuals who worked belowdecks (and never saw daylight) received 7.35 hours of sleep, while those Sailors who worked topside averaged only 4.72 hours of sleep per day (t = 6.19, p < 0.001)."
-- http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a550390.pdf
DTIC is a DoD website, by the way. Then again, I don't know what your sources are regarding the average amount of sleep of the various groups of uniformed personnel.
Wait, you posted a DoD study designed to show how detrimental sleep loss is, as evidence that it's possible for human beings to live and function on a perpetual sleep deprived basis? We'll avoid delving too far into the psychological and physiological reasons why the topside sailors would struggle to sleep as much as their below decks counterparts, but it is also important to remember that nearly five hours of sleep is actually almost sixty percent more than the three that might be possible on a twenty hour work schedule. And sailors are expected to do this only for short periods of time, not on an extended basis, or their entire lives. Your own data shows that sailors report seven and a half to eight hours on leave (30 days a year), and six to six and a half when not underway.
I never said military members don't work on less sleep. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I just said it's impossible for the human body to continue functioning with three or less hours sleep on a perpetual basis. Th fact is, there has never once in history existed a work schedule like you've described. Even in the Victorian age at the dawn of industrialization.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I never said military members don't work on less sleep. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I just said it's impossible for the human body to continue functioning with three or less hours sleep on a perpetual basis.
"So how much sleep do you need? Anything from three to 11 hours a night is normal, says sleep expert Dr Neil Stanley.
‘If you feel awake during the day, however much you’re getting is enough.
The problem is that there is this idea that everyone needs eight hours.
This means many who need less sleep assume they are insomniacs, while the nine to 11 hours a nighters worry they should cut down,’ he says."
-- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1354600/Health-news-Three-hours-sleep-building-model-aircraft-prevents-depression.html
So ... yeah.
But as I already mentioned earlier, personally I would fully expect twenty hour shifts, even with breaks, to have a detrimental effect on the workforce. Just that the government wouldn't care. Because this is 40k. Welcome to Grimdark.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The fact is, there has never once in history existed a work schedule like you've described. Even in the Victorian age at the dawn of industrialization.
"Children as young as five years old can be found working up to twenty hour shifts in unsafe and unhealthy conditions sewing together soccer balls for major companies like Adidas."
-- http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=69
Lynata wrote:But as I already mentioned earlier, personally I would fully expect twenty hour shifts, even with breaks, to have a detrimental effect on the workforce. Just that the government wouldn't care. Because this is 40k.
The government would care if it had a detrimental effect on their bottom line.
Melissia wrote:The government would care if it had a detrimental effect on their bottom line.
There I fully agree. But just like the masses of bodies that feed the Imperial Guard, there will always be more lower class workers for the giant manufactoriums. At least on a Hive World.
The Uberman Sleep is pretty sick. It sounds pretty in terms of saving a lot of time you'd otherwise "waste" with unnecessary sleep phases, but then again it makes me think you'd completely mess up your life if you miss out on one of those "every three hour" naps. And I don't think I could ever get used to such a schedule...
Lynata wrote:The Uberman Sleep is pretty sick. It sounds pretty in terms of saving a lot of time you'd otherwise "waste" with unnecessary sleep phases, but then again it makes me think you'd completely mess up your life if you miss out on one of those "every three hour" naps. And I don't think I could ever get used to such a schedule...
It isn't something you could really do for a desk job, but if you work from home/self employed it shouldn't be a problem,
I like the Sororitas because a.) They actually represent what competence and intelligence the Ecclesiarchy might have (unlike the guys in power they answer to) and b.) they serve a myriad of useful functions beyond actual combat and c.) They're an interesting take (both good and bad) into the religious and the female side of 40K both. They represent the tangible, solid benefits of faith, nad what humanity can aspire to at least from the religious angle (which is the best approach to achieving the Emperor's goals at this point.) They don't just fight in wars in power armor, and they aren't just 'space marines with boobs'. They also represent a highly intellectual side of 40K that covers many areas. There are the Famulous, who guide, educate, and generally seek to improve what is generally useless nobility and make them useful to the Imperium (and when they prove troublesome, they remove them.) The Dialogus who deal with history, language, and various other knowledge subjects that others don't deal with. There are the Hospitallers, who run the hospices and charity organizations and generally seek to improve the health and well being of the Emperor's subjects, both in military and civilian life. The last two at LEAST are as important as the gun toting militants, and in my opinion moreso.
That said, I think the 'best' Sisters tend to be the ones who embody the pure, tangible faith that makes them different from Marines and gives them the qualities and abilities that make them their own part of 40K (Like in Faith and ifre when they faced down psykers without aid, or in the Aescarion Short story from Let the Galaxy Burn where Aescarion manages to bring a corrupt Ultramarine back from Chaos' clutches and turns the champion against one of Nurgle's spawn. Now THAt is badass.) I tend to dislike how they get treated in Redemption Corps or Flesh and Iron (although the male, upper echelons of the Ecclesairchy can be such pompous donkey-caves that approach isn't wholly impossible. It just sucks that the Sisters have to be misused by the F$cking Priests that way.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: As far as the "sleep" thing.. it really depends on the world. I've seen all sorts of depictions. IIRC from Andy Chamber's "Survival Instinct' necromunda story it implied that the factory workers worked some pretty grueling shifts (like 80 hour weeks or something to that effect) by our standards, but they weren't exactly worked to death. They had time for eating, sleeping (to some extent) worship, and various other things.
People put too much stock in the more propoganda oriented fluff of the codexes - stuff lke 'human life is worthless and people die in droves and blah blah blah' because that's the silly sort of grimdark crap 40K has always had its roots in and it is meant to be taken with a grain of salt. If the Imperium really ran that way disease and death and gak would be far more rampant than it is. They wouldn' waste time shipping (or producing) food for the Guard, for the factory workers, or anything like that. After all, wasting valuable time and space on making food takesa way from making tanks, guns, ammo etc. They'd just make everyone a fething servitor (but then they'd be more like the 'Nids. Or more like that Hydra hive mind thing from the Inquisition War novels.)
In theory the Munitorum knows this. They expect certain amount of human 'maintenance' goes on (indeed, in the cases like the Guard, things liek hygiene and nutrition and such matter). But this isn't happy happy fun sunshine just because people eat and get sleep. The taste of the food is of secondary importance to its nutritional content. A Guardsman is expected to maintain a certain level of physical and mental preparation. They have to allot some free time for propoganda and religious indoctrination (going to church, what passes for entertainmnet, etc.) as well as to have some outlet to appease the masses. Those same peasants also are what drive the 40K economy such as it is - you can't conduct war if you don't have the money and resources to pull it off, and greed and wealth and rich jerks have not vanished from 40K.
So in theory you can expect a certain level of 'decent' treatment (barring certain exceptions) - but that treatment also reflects how a person is treated more like a commodity or a resource - it's an impersonal, cold, and logical sort of 'decency' driven more by necessity and practicality (again in theory) than any sort of positive emotion. It's the way you would treat a pet or livestock or even machinery (even servitors and tanks and other machines need maintenance to run at peak performance, even if that cuts into production time.) This may not be the 'traditional' sort of girmdark as emphasized in some source, but its pretty cold, brutal, and depressing in its own way, and its not nearly as ridiculous.
That said, the actual 'treatment' can vary widely depending on planet, ruler, and circumstances. THere can be planets where people are treated like absolute gak and even their basic needs ignored or reduced to bare minimums (like Sephiris Secundus in The Dark Heresy books.) and being perceived as a criminal, a heretic, or a second class citizen (such as a mutant or a psyker) can make things even worse for you.
I imagine that different orders have different attitudes to "off time". Some of the more liberal ones may allow their members time to socialise outside of the convent, and even marry. Others may only allow "breaks" within the confines of the convent itself, and others may have sisters spending time in a Sister of Battle equivalent of the Pain-Glove. After all, real nun convents are often very different to each other. I would also imagine that sisters have to go on some kind of pilgrimage every now and then.
Of course, Mellissia, if I've made any mistakes, do tell. me. Aftr all, you know more on this subject than me.
1) The various Orders are not that different from each other, as they all trace back their origin to the San Leor temple, whose teachings they follow to this very day. All Orders also have a unifying command structure that makes all Minor Orders subservient to their maternal Major Order, and all Major Orders subservient to the Prioress of their Head Convent, and the two Prioresses subservient to a single Abbess. There's also a lot of internal transfers between the Orders going on.
2) All Sororitas convents are completely isolated. Only a Canonesses most trusted Sisters Superior are allowed to deal with outsiders. As the Codex notes, the Sisters are "utterly dedicated to one task or duty and brook no distraction from their studies".
3) The Sororitas are "married" solely to their holy task. The very concept of marriage is anathema to their dedication to the Emperor alone.
The pilgrimage sounds realistic, though I'm not sure if I'd deem it necessary or even common. But even on a pilgrimage, I wouldn't exactly see the Sister as being "off duty" - she would continue to pray and meditate, probably help other pilgrims as well (protecting them, assisting with prayer services, generally being a good example for Imperial citizens etc).
Of course, there are various licensed products, chiefly Black Library novels, that kind of go against the depiction in the Codices. It'd be up to you as an individual which interpretation you prefer.
Sisters don't marry. Ever. One of their many rules, that applies to all of the Orders, is "cleave only unto the Emperor." This means they're both chaste and celibate.
@ Melissia, as I see from what you wrote, I think we are in agreement over what I had written.
Sisters of Battle are of the Orders Militant and that there are other Orders of Sisters that do things, like Brother Coa suggested, in civilian areas of practice.
SoB Sister Mary Heavy Flamer, say from Order of the Valorous Heart, vs Sister Mary Black&Decker from say the Order of the Shining Tower (Civil Engineers).
Both train hard, both among the best at what they do, but are different individuals from different Orders with a different focus.
Zakiriel wrote: So to me that means that there can be "Sisters" doing several civilian side service projects but not waste the precious training hours of the "Sisters Militant" as they are not the same individuals.
Melissia wrote:
They send "precious hours" doing OTHER training.
And you're acting like those that aren't members oft he Orders Militant aren't actually Sisters.
If so, you're wrong. They are Sisters-- just not Sisters of Battle. They are the Sisters Hospitaller (the best medics and doctors in the Imperium bar none), Sisters Famulous (who manage the noble houses, track breeding of said houses, make sure nobles pay tithes, etc), Sisters Dialogous (by far the best omniglots in the Imperium), and so on. There's also other innumerable minor orders which have entirely separate duties.
All of these train unrelentingly for their duties, and do NOT train less than the Sisters of Battle do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/12/28 04:38:56
Zakiriel wrote:Melissia, as I see from what you wrote, I think we are in agreement over what I had written.
No. I do not agree with your assertion that the non-militant orders do not train just as hard as the militant ones. I do not know if you intended to say this, but you did.
That is simply going too far, even by 
