I've been thinking about the Imperium facing the tyranid threat and surely the way to defeat them effectively must be a mixture of Space-guerrila warfare and slash and burn retreats. If you leave nothing on the planets for the nids to devour then they become increasingly unable to replace losses. If you lay minefields and make flanking strikes upon them from space, attempting to damage the big synaps vessels they can only really rely on their own biomass to replenish losses as I assume they cannot eat metal annd synthetic material to replace losses. Surely as well if they are feeding on themselves their must be a fair bit of energy lost in the process.

However all the Imperium ever seems to do is wait for the nids to come and besiege them on a vitally important planet, we hear very little about them contesting the bugs approach or trying to weaken them in advance. Am I right in thinking that Nids dont posess the abillity to travel at anywhere near the speeds of Imperial ships (not talking about generally just in the sense that they can't use the warp.)

Well for one thing, the Tyranids are constantly adapting - if the Imperium did that, then the Tyranids would adapt and figure out some other way to get resources. Maybe they'd skirt Ork space or something, the Imperium isn't about to defend them.

When nids attack, they disrupt communications and make it hard to get a warring out. A lot of the time they don't even realize that the nids are around till they make it to that important planet.

There have been cases where they form burn lines though. Destroying a few planets to starve or divert a fleet as it approaches.

Kill the big ones.

Coolyo294 wrote:Kill the big ones.

shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones?

Exterminatus everything in their path then after the fleet begins exhausting itself hit it with everything you have.

Capture the Swarmlord and throw him into the Eye of Terror. Just to see what happens.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Well for one thing, the Tyranids are constantly adapting - if the Imperium did that, then the Tyranids would adapt and figure out some other way to get resources. Maybe they'd skirt Ork space or something, the Imperium isn't about to defend them.

Hell we should try and drive the Hive fleets into Ork space either way the Imperium does itself a favour. Even with the amount of biomass it would be possible to consume the losses faced by the hive fleet in the process would be enormous. An Ork empire versus a Hive fleet would be one hell of a scrap, Especially once the word spreads and every ork in the segmentum comes running.

Belexar wrote:Capture the Swarmlord and throw him into the Eye of Terror. Just to see what happens.

Make another Swarmlord?


I'd just burn worlds before the Tyranids arrive, starve and weaken the beasties and obliterate them

We could take the worlds and push em... somewhere else

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Well for one thing, the Tyranids are constantly adapting - if the Imperium did that, then the Tyranids would adapt and figure out some other way to get resources. Maybe they'd skirt Ork space or something, the Imperium isn't about to defend them.

Hell we should try and drive the Hive fleets into Ork space either way the Imperium does itself a favour. Even with the amount of biomass it would be possible to consume the losses faced by the hive fleet in the process would be enormous. An Ork empire versus a Hive fleet would be one hell of a scrap, Especially once the word spreads and every ork in the segmentum comes running.

That seems like a good idea, until you realize that you would end up with more of both, not less. Fighting and dying is how orks reproduce. If you kill an ork, it will just make more orks unless you burn the body and all the spores. Eating orks would create more tyranids. If both sides were evenly matched, it would just create more and more of each, constantly escalating. The only way it would end would be if one side could quickly and decisively defeat the other.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Well for one thing, the Tyranids are constantly adapting - if the Imperium did that, then the Tyranids would adapt and figure out some other way to get resources. Maybe they'd skirt Ork space or something, the Imperium isn't about to defend them.

Hell we should try and drive the Hive fleets into Ork space either way the Imperium does itself a favour. Even with the amount of biomass it would be possible to consume the losses faced by the hive fleet in the process would be enormous. An Ork empire versus a Hive fleet would be one hell of a scrap, Especially once the word spreads and every ork in the segmentum comes running.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ork_Empire_of_Octarius#.Tt70umMk67s

Have you read this? This is what happens when nids and orks meet

Also, best tactic? There really isn't one, you basically get one shot at everything. The fleet will adapt quickly to what every previous plan you had. Also the exterminatus of worlds isn't always the best option, you're exterminating a planet and everything on it, you cannot come back to it and expect to rebuild. Perhaps the best option is when a planet is lost, is to call an exterminatus WHILE the nids are on the surface, so the fleet is not only denied its resources, but the resources spent in invading the planet are also lost. But you'd have to get through the nid fleet, which is easier said than done.

Find a way of severing the synapse connection to the Hive Mind.

Or a psychic contagion that passes from mind to mind.

Brighter bug-light than the Astronomicon.

the Tau would rotate weapons and tactics in order keep the tyranids in flux. Eventually the tyranids exhausted their resources and the remaining ships fled.

The (Unofficial) Imperial Guard Guide Against the Xenos Known as Tyranids

1. Tyranids consume biomass. If you are losing a battle, make sure the Tyranids will have no biomass to consume. A series of incendiary mines should scorch away any trances of biomass from the nearby flora or organisms.

2. Genestealer Cults are to be purged immediately. Anyone with a bald head, long forehead, sharp teeth, sharp fingernails, purple robes, strange tattoos, additional limbs or ugly children should be incinerated.

3. As a famous General once quipped, "SHOOT THE BIG ONES!" The entirety of the quote is "SHOOT THE BIG ONES! SHOOT THEM! STOP FLEEING! COME BACK! AAAAAAAAAA-" Large Tyranids are usually, but not always, synapse creatures that psychically mind control small Tyranids. By eliminating them, you cut the small Tyranids off from their commanders and leave them confused and orderless.

4. Virus bombs are not acceptable. It is true that the initial wave of Tyranids will be almost certainly slaughtered by the virus. However, any survivors within the fleet, regardless of location or genetics, will gain immunity. In some rare cases the Tyranids even learn to replicate the virus and release it on the very forces that first used it against them.

5. Tyranids, like most savage animals, are mainly equipped for melee battles and not ranged ones. Thus, your force should focus on long ranged weapons and maneuverability. Fire on the Tyranids and never get close.

While imperial ships FTL is faster, it also can't be used to get very close to the hive fleet, as the warp shadow makes navigation/communication impossible. So you can't really hit an run the main ships without going through their surrounding blob, which probably outnumbers you. Typically you have to wait for them to get to you and then take them out somehow. So where would you rather entrench yourself, defenseless in open space where they can surround you on every side, or on a planet behind bunkers, minefields, and batteries? Even if you want to do a space battle you are going to do it in system so you can take advantage of the "terrain" (asteroid belts, gravity wells, known astronomical phenomena, etc.) Open space just invites a war of attrition, something you will lose. The only way you can hope to get close enough to hit anything important is if they are already in system and you have hardpoints/places to hide.

You CAN burn your worlds, and it is mentioned this IS being done, but it really doesn't help you that much. They made the trip between galaxies, they aren't going to starve before they get to you. The only time this would be appropriate is if you have a hard point you want the battle to take place at and want to prevent them from getting any stronger before they get there, so you burn every system between your fortifications and their fleet.

Likewise, it is mentioned that diverting the nids into ork systems has been done, but it is a case of trading a little pain now for a lot of pain later. Whoever wins is going to be a lot more dangerous than they were when they started.

Overall, the Imperials current strategy really isn't that bad, e.g. fight them on battlefields you have prepared to play to your strengths, attempt force them into Pyrrhic victories, and lure their leaders into striking range without exposing yourself. Imperial competence, astounding I know.

Holding the line isn't much of an option, with very few exceptions.

1. Massed artillery, heavy weapons fire. There would have to be enough to cover the battlefield in overlapping explosive ordnance. Not to mention having to be able to fire for effect for days straight.

2. Hardened positions offer regular troopers and vehicles over, such as fortress or prepared trenchlines. I've only read of one instance where this resulted in absolute victory (Imperial Guard Codex pg.23 "Cadian 9th decimates Hive Fleet Scarabus on the walls of Fort Carcassson without the loss of a single company."). Although it may slow down the overall advance of the tyranids, static fortifications don't seem to help much.

3. Massed Space Marine forces. But...if Macragge has taught us anything, even THAT isn't enough.


Bleeding the Hive Fleet dry via exterminatus seems like the only viable solution. It certainly is the easiest.

The best thing to do is to engage them in space, fight really hard and force the fleet to spend large quantities of energy. Then you retreat and exterminatus the planets you were defending. This leaves the fleet in a negative energy balance and the fleet basically starves to death. and/or its weak enough for your counter navel strike to destroy the fleet completely.

Here's what works best:
1.Fight them in space, this will cause them to lose a great deal of biomass, making the swarm weaker as a whole.
2..Kill the leaders, it may not stop the swarm, but it slows them down considerably.
(if you have enough resources and/or hold out long enough for reinforcements you can win)
and if that fails
3. Exterminates: Forces them to lose bio mass, if you cause enough damage to the fleet as a whole with the above steps you can stop the swarm as a whole, forcing them into hibernation.

Call in the Ultramarines.

Call their parents...

Frankenberry wrote:Bleeding the Hive Fleet dry via exterminatus seems like the only viable solution. It certainly is the easiest.

It's also the dumbest thing to do. While is denies resources to the Tyranids, it denies yourself a habitable planet. They are actually still rare even in 40k. Exterminating a planet should always be a last resort.

Combating Tyranids in space is hard to do if you're not on the defensive because of the Shadow in the Warp. It strands ships, fries navigators and astropaths brains, and in general makes it hard for you to escape quickly.

The best way, as already said, is to 'shoot the big ones'. Go for the syanpse creatures first and foremost. If you locate the dominatrix leading the ground forces, make it public enemy number 1. Destroy their control base, and the rest of their ground forces will be confused and make easy pickings. The problem is, it's very easy to do this in the tabletop game, but in the fluff, those synapse creatures will be surrounded by hundreds of thousands of smaller bugs, and synapse creatures aren't exactly in short supply.

Evacuate the entire IoM to TERRA the resulting concentration of forces will be to much for anything!

Isn't it obvious,have the Blood Angles call in their Necron buddies!

But no really, the only way i see the IoM coming out of the Tyranide have fleets alive would be to have the necrons kill them, After all you can't mutate to prevent your atoms from being striped, and downed 'crons -the ones that don't get back up- can't be eaten -and will probable just phase out get repaired and come back- and nids can't beat the crons in space and are unlikely to prevail on the ground.

NL_Cirrus wrote:Isn't it obvious,have the Blood Angles call in their Necron buddies!

But no really, the only way i see the IoM coming out of the Tyranide have fleets alive would be to have the necrons kill them, After all you can't mutate to prevent your atoms from being striped, and downed 'crons -the ones that don't get back up- can't be eaten -and will probable just phase out get repaired and come back- and nids can't beat the crons in space and are unlikely to prevail on the ground.

That may be so but the necrosis are heavily outnumbered. Even more so than the other races.

I heard promethium works quite well

Pray.

blood reaper wrote:

Belexar wrote:Capture the Swarmlord and throw him into the Eye of Terror. Just to see what happens.

Make another Swarmlord?


I'd just burn worlds before the Tyranids arrive, starve and weaken the beasties and obliterate them

You know, that's what Kryptman tried. He basically called an Exterminatus on half of Ultima Segmentum. Probably killed more humans on his own than the nids.

Guess what hapened to him? He was the first Lord Inquisitor to ever get fired .

Its the Imperium of Man, Killing innocent people is just a minor blight on the bigger picture. But anyways he did stop them....for now.....DUH DUH DUHHH!

I would agree that necrons are the best bet. But they need to be all awakened. Then collectively. the entire necron empire should be more than a match for tyranids.

Om nom nom them back!

I hadn't considered Necrons...they're the only viable answer to the Tyranid problem. Aside from nuking everything from orbit.

blood reaper wrote:Its the Imperium of Man, Killing innocent people is just a minor blight on the bigger picture. But anyways he did stop them....for now.....DUH DUH DUHHH!

One tendril was redirected to Octarius. Where they are in a war with the Orks, with both sides constantly gaining strength.

The rest of Leviathan, which is the vast majority of the hive fleet, is still rampaging around the galaxy. It's pretty easy to see this, just looking at the galactic map they show of Leviathan.

Kryptmann accomplished nothing.

I think the OP has a great idea and I agree the approach would work

Having said that I think this is the accepted approach, once the IoM has mustered sufficient force to engage on their terms - by that time the hive fleet will have consumed some fringe worlds already though, which leaves plenty of mind-numbing terror encounters for PDF to write some great stories about

When people say have space battles or send the necrons after them I have to think to myself, do people consider how much metal we have in our bodies? And do we really think that the tyranid ships are made out of gooey flesh entirely. Tyranids use metal, they just don't use machines.

My second thought is what will happen if the IoM tried to deny tyranids of all biomass, they would adapt and we'd get some metal tyranids.

As for the Tau out adapting the Tyranids, I just have to call bad storytelling in attempt to prevent them wiping out the Tau fluffwise. They can instantly adapt to virus bombs, but somehow changing guns can beat them. Ofcourse you just have to glance at the tyranid fluff to see how most hive fleets are defeated/turned back/whatever by fluff armour; I understand this, if they had the tyranids winning their battles there wouldn't be any reason for them not to have kept on going and killing everything; but most of the hive fleets seemed to be only be able to defeated by one time heroics.

Blackstone fortress Kill - O - Zap
Dial a Necron Fleet
Blow up some ships in the middle of their fleet. Seems to work every time. They should start building dozens of "fire ships"
Tell the Orks the Norn Queen said something about their mammas. Just because they don't have mammas is irrelevant.
Have the Nids tick off the Pan-Fo.

Frazzled wrote:Blackstone fortress Kill - O - Zap
Dial a Necron Fleet
Blow up some ships in the middle of their fleet. Seems to work every time. They should start building dozens of "fire ships"
Tell the Orks the Norn Queen said something about their mammas. Just because they don't have mammas is irrelevant.
Have the Nids tick off the Pan-Fo.

No Wiener Dogs of Doom?

Brother Coa wrote:Call in the Ultramarines.

Yeah, so that they can loose and ask someone better to help them.

I'd say ask the Necrons very politely.

Frazzled wrote:Blackstone fortress Kill - O - Zap
Dial a Necron Fleet
Blow up some ships in the middle of their fleet. Seems to work every time. They should start building dozens of "fire ships"
Tell the Orks the Norn Queen said something about their mammas. Just because they don't have mammas is irrelevant.
Have the Nids tick off the Pan-Fo.

Pure win!

Grey Templar wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Blackstone fortress Kill - O - Zap
Dial a Necron Fleet
Blow up some ships in the middle of their fleet. Seems to work every time. They should start building dozens of "fire ships"
Tell the Orks the Norn Queen said something about their mammas. Just because they don't have mammas is irrelevant.
Have the Nids tick off the Pan-Fo.

No Wiener Dogs of Doom?

Who do you think tells the Pan Fo what to do?

Frazzled wrote:Blackstone fortress Kill - O - Zap
Dial a Necron Fleet
Blow up some ships in the middle of their fleet. Seems to work every time. They should start building dozens of "fire ships"
Tell the Orks the Norn Queen said something about their mammas. Just because they don't have mammas is irrelevant.
Have the Nids tick off the Pan-Fo.

Didn't they try the fireships in an Ultramarines novel? And then the Nids just evolved some sort of creature that flung the ships back? Or were they just giant fuel stations in space?


And I doubt tyranids could evolve into metal nids, they need biomass to feed off of! That's why they're called the great devourer. The reason why denial of biomass works is because a tyranid fleet cannot produce it's own food. Mass cannot create more mass, unless of course you use the whole:

E = mc^2 crap

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Blackstone fortress Kill - O - Zap
Dial a Necron Fleet
Blow up some ships in the middle of their fleet. Seems to work every time. They should start building dozens of "fire ships"
Tell the Orks the Norn Queen said something about their mammas. Just because they don't have mammas is irrelevant.
Have the Nids tick off the Pan-Fo.

Didn't they try the fireships in an Ultramarines novel? And then the Nids just evolved some sort of creature that flung the ships back? Or were they just giant fuel stations in space?

Spoilers from Warriors of Ultramar:

Coolyo294 wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Blackstone fortress Kill - O - Zap
Dial a Necron Fleet
Blow up some ships in the middle of their fleet. Seems to work every time. They should start building dozens of "fire ships"
Tell the Orks the Norn Queen said something about their mammas. Just because they don't have mammas is irrelevant.
Have the Nids tick off the Pan-Fo.

Didn't they try the fireships in an Ultramarines novel? And then the Nids just evolved some sort of creature that flung the ships back? Or were they just giant fuel stations in space?

Spoilers from Warriors of Ultramar:

Spoiler:

During the first space battle, the Tyranids thought that one of the huge orbital fuel refineries was a ship and they attacked it. This caused it to explode, which killed a huge number of the Tyranid ships. The Imperium then recognized the value of these refineries posed as weapons so they packed them to the brim with fuel and explosives and tried to use them during the next orbital battle. However, the Tyranids had also learned the value of these weaponised refineries and had one of the ships grab it with its tentacles and fling it at the Imperial fleet, which exploded and wiped out the majority of the fleet.

That's the one

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:


And I doubt tyranids could evolve into metal nids, they need biomass to feed off of! That's why they're called the great devourer. The reason why denial of biomass works is because a tyranid fleet cannot produce it's own food. Mass cannot create more mass, unless of course you use the whole:

E = mc^2 crap

Yes they're called the great devourer because the devour everything not because they only eat flesh. Like I said before we have a lot of metal in our bodies, they devour that too, metal is not a problem for the tyranids.

So if biomass were denied to the nids, it might slow them down for a while, but I doubt it would take too long before they start eating all the tanks and necrons and making metallic nids.

lord_bobbington wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:


And I doubt tyranids could evolve into metal nids, they need biomass to feed off of! That's why they're called the great devourer. The reason why denial of biomass works is because a tyranid fleet cannot produce it's own food. Mass cannot create more mass, unless of course you use the whole:

E = mc^2 crap

Yes they're called the great devourer because the devour everything not because they only eat flesh. Like I said before we have a lot of metal in our bodies, they devour that too, metal is not a problem for the tyranids.

So if biomass were denied to the nids, it might slow them down for a while, but I doubt it would take too long before they start eating all the tanks and necrons and making metallic nids.

Erm, there isn't that much metal in a human body. You have perhaps 1kg of calcium and a tiny amount of other metals.

KingDeath wrote:

lord_bobbington wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:


And I doubt tyranids could evolve into metal nids, they need biomass to feed off of! That's why they're called the great devourer. The reason why denial of biomass works is because a tyranid fleet cannot produce it's own food. Mass cannot create more mass, unless of course you use the whole:

E = mc^2 crap

Yes they're called the great devourer because the devour everything not because they only eat flesh. Like I said before we have a lot of metal in our bodies, they devour that too, metal is not a problem for the tyranids.

So if biomass were denied to the nids, it might slow them down for a while, but I doubt it would take too long before they start eating all the tanks and necrons and making metallic nids.

Erm, there isn't that much metal in a human body. You have perhaps 1kg of calcium and a tiny amount of other metals.

And the iron in our blood; I will agree that maybe saying a lot was exaggerating, however my point is we still have metal in our bodies (not to mention compile that over a billion bodies and you've got a fairly large amount). We are still made out of carbon, which makes up so many different non-biomass materials, the tyranids can still devour metal and use it.

lord_bobbington wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

lord_bobbington wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:


And I doubt tyranids could evolve into metal nids, they need biomass to feed off of! That's why they're called the great devourer. The reason why denial of biomass works is because a tyranid fleet cannot produce it's own food. Mass cannot create more mass, unless of course you use the whole:

E = mc^2 crap

Yes they're called the great devourer because the devour everything not because they only eat flesh. Like I said before we have a lot of metal in our bodies, they devour that too, metal is not a problem for the tyranids.

So if biomass were denied to the nids, it might slow them down for a while, but I doubt it would take too long before they start eating all the tanks and necrons and making metallic nids.

Erm, there isn't that much metal in a human body. You have perhaps 1kg of calcium and a tiny amount of other metals.

And the iron in our blood; I will agree that maybe saying a lot was exaggerating, however my point is we still have metal in our bodies (not to mention compile that over a billion bodies and you've got a fairly large amount). We are still made out of carbon, which makes up so many different non-biomass materials, the tyranids can still devour metal and use it.

3g of Iron in an adult male, 2 g for a female. The entire human population of earth carries less Iron than France produced in 2003 alone.

Edit: Got the wrong numbers for France. A better comparision would have been India or Germany.

KingDeath wrote:

3g of Iron in an adult male, 2 g for a female. The entire human population of earth carries less Iron than France produced in 2003 alone.

When did this become a discussion about how much metal was in the human body? I just said there was, which is my point. Or are you trying to assume because there's a relatively small amount that it does not exist?

But I am not sure if metal qualifies as biomass.

If it does, when the tyranid hive tendril fleet attacks a planet, there literally will be nothing left. Since if you can break down and create new tyranids from metal, then you can do the same to rock and earth as well.

Literally we won't be left with bare planets, we will be left with no planets at all! So, I would argue that tyranids still need living flesh things (that qualifies as biomass), not the metallic things which the necrons are.

Best tactic would be to rush some low class Imperial ship right in the middle of Hive Fleet and detonate it's engines.
Worked at Macragge. ( I know that ship was Emperor class, but that doesn't mean that you can't do the same with some lower class ships ).

Brother Coa wrote:Best tactic would be to rush some low class Imperial ship right in the middle of Hive Fleet and detonate it's engines.
Worked at Macragge. ( I know that ship was Emperor class, but that doesn't mean that you can't do the same with some lower class ships ).

Thats what I meant by fireships.

While it worked at Macragge, the tyranids are not dumb and they can change their tactics accordingly. The tyranids could do something like just destroy whatever that gets within a certain distance of their hive fleet core.

Or they could evolve such that they are much more spreadout over the entire space. Then even if there was an explosion, it wouldn't take out enough nids to matter.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Or they could evolve such that they are much more spreadout over the entire space. Then even if there was an explosion, it wouldn't take out enough nids to matter.

When Warp engines detonates they don't just explode. They create Warp field vortex that suck everything in it in a certain radius.
It's hard to stop battleship ship at full speed backed by void shields. It's even harder to try to survive being sucked into the Warp.

But the explosion still has a certain radius. The tyranids could just simply choose to spread out so much that even in a warp engine detonation, it won't take out much of their hive fleet.

The tyranids are part of a single huge living super organism, and they communicate telepathically. So even if they spread out a lot more, they can still function just as well.

Another way is to evolve speed. So, the battleship comes lumbering in. Tyranids have seen the tactic before, so they evolved their hive ships to have speeds faster than that of a battleship. If you can't catch them, then you can't use this tactic either.

Eldenfirefly wrote:But the explosion still has a certain radius.

You miss my point, the Behemoth didn't die from explosion.
The Battleship actually explode near the Hive Fleet, not in it.
THe fleet was destroyed by ravaging Warp field that start appearing all around it.
In the end the Hive Fleet just got sucked into the Warp, didn't die from explosion.

lord_bobbington wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

lord_bobbington wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:


And I doubt tyranids could evolve into metal nids, they need biomass to feed off of! That's why they're called the great devourer. The reason why denial of biomass works is because a tyranid fleet cannot produce it's own food. Mass cannot create more mass, unless of course you use the whole:

E = mc^2 crap

Yes they're called the great devourer because the devour everything not because they only eat flesh. Like I said before we have a lot of metal in our bodies, they devour that too, metal is not a problem for the tyranids.

So if biomass were denied to the nids, it might slow them down for a while, but I doubt it would take too long before they start eating all the tanks and necrons and making metallic nids.

Erm, there isn't that much metal in a human body. You have perhaps 1kg of calcium and a tiny amount of other metals.

And the iron in our blood; I will agree that maybe saying a lot was exaggerating, however my point is we still have metal in our bodies (not to mention compile that over a billion bodies and you've got a fairly large amount). We are still made out of carbon, which makes up so many different non-biomass materials, the tyranids can still devour metal and use it.

Tyranids used devoured metal the same way other living organisms do. It flows through their blood for their bodies to use. And seeing how there are trillions upon trillions of Tyranid those small amounts add up.

But purely metal nids lumbering about won't happen. They cease to be BIOmass at that point.

Brother Coa wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:But the explosion still has a certain radius.

You miss my point, the Behemoth didn't die from explosion.
The Battleship actually explode near the Hive Fleet, not in it.
THe fleet was destroyed by ravaging Warp field that start appearing all around it.
In the end the Hive Fleet just got sucked into the Warp, didn't die from explosion.

He does get your point, there is still a blast radius that the explosion would have. Sure you're in space, and the radius is kilometres or more wide, but there is a certain distance where the explosion ceases to be effective. The hive fleet could possibly develop long range weaponry that would disable the battleship before it reaches the tyranid fleet, or outrider ships that could board and imobilise ships before it reaches them (that's only if the battleship comes in alone). There are hundreds of possible mutations or scenarios that tyranids could adopt to beat fire ships.

I'm not saying fireships are not viable, I making the point that with the great devourer, every option has to be weighed carefully, because once it's been used, it really can't be used again.

I checked lexicanum, because I'm a poor man with no money for the rulebooks and novels, the battleship detonated its cores in the heart of the fleet, so one of your points is moot

But the explosion still has a certain radius. The tyranids could just simply choose to spread out so much that even in a warp engine detonation, it won't take out much of their hive fleet.

Then you can destroy them through conventional means, because this will render the Tyranid's greatest weapon (overwhelming numbers) impotent. The swarm is too spread out to easily support its members, and allows the Astartes to more easily clear paths to the Synapse Creatures and Norn Queen, thus spelling doom to the entire hive.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
I checked lexicanum, because I'm a poor man with no money for the rulebooks and novels, the battleship detonated its cores in the heart of the fleet, so one of your points is moot

Index Astartes III said that ship exploded near the Hive Fleet.

Brother Coa wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
I checked lexicanum, because I'm a poor man with no money for the rulebooks and novels, the battleship detonated its cores in the heart of the fleet, so one of your points is moot

Index Astartes III said that ship exploded near the Hive Fleet.

Unfortunately, IA 3 is older than the current 'Nid Codex, which states the Dominus Astra detonated in the heart of the fleet. The 4th edition Codex also said this. So I think the more recent version takes precedent.

You mean the same Tyranid codex that say Leviathan is the last Hive Fleet?

There are multiple ways to interpret the word last. It can also mean most recent, which given the statement earlier in the Codex which says that there are more fleets only just becoming known, is probably the more accurate interpretation.

"Leviathan, the last and latest five fleet to enter the galaxy..."

Sounds like last to me.

The actual quote is "Last and greatest", which still (coupled with other mentions of Hive Fleets just showing up now) allows for the 'most recent' interpretation.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:Well for one thing, the Tyranids are constantly adapting - if the Imperium did that, then the Tyranids would adapt and figure out some other way to get resources. Maybe they'd skirt Ork space or something, the Imperium isn't about to defend them.

Hell we should try and drive the Hive fleets into Ork space either way the Imperium does itself a favour. Even with the amount of biomass it would be possible to consume the losses faced by the hive fleet in the process would be enormous. An Ork empire versus a Hive fleet would be one hell of a scrap, Especially once the word spreads and every ork in the segmentum comes running.

Might end up with hybrids or worse alliances !!!!!

The current Tyranids Codex states on page 31 in the second paragraph of the "Galactic Feeding Grounds" entry "Nor is it only Leviathan that is assailing the galaxy. New Hive Fleets are even now beginning to emerge from their cold sleep through the inter-galactic void AND the surviving remnants of defeated Hive Fleets continue to invade isolated worlds."

Or to put it another way, Hive Fleet Leviathan may be the biggest and most recent, but it sure as hell wont be the last.

Fat_Little_Ripper wrote:The current Tyranids Codex states on page 31 in the second paragraph of the "Galactic Feeding Grounds" entry "Nor is it only Leviathan that is assailing the galaxy. New Hive Fleets are even now beginning to emerge from their cold sleep through the inter-galactic void AND the surviving remnants of defeated Hive Fleets continue to invade isolated worlds."

Or to put it another way, Hive Fleet Leviathan may be the biggest and most recent, but it sure as hell wont be the last.

Maybe the quote was referring to Leviathan to be the last of the big ones?
Other being small in comparison to these three?
Seems logical to me that the Leviathan would be the last Large Tyranid fleet and the other ones would be just minor ones like Gorgon.

Dytalus wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
I checked lexicanum, because I'm a poor man with no money for the rulebooks and novels, the battleship detonated its cores in the heart of the fleet, so one of your points is moot

Index Astartes III said that ship exploded near the Hive Fleet.

Unfortunately, IA 3 is older than the current 'Nid Codex, which states the Dominus Astra detonated in the heart of the fleet. The 4th edition Codex also said this. So I think the more recent version takes precedent.

And yet, Behemoth isn't gone. The fact that it was the hive fleet that took part in the Medusa Campaign, long after the Battle for Macragge, proves this. There's recent fluff that says that 'several tendrils of Behemoth were defeated'. While they defeated the fleet directly threatening Macragge, it wasn't all of Behemoth.

The fact that the current codex states that more hive fleets are arriving even after Leviathan means, well, Leviathan isn't the last. Yes, they're minor hive fleets, but that fits with their behaviour. Minor hive fleets hit, then a major hive fleet, then minor fleets, then a major fleet. The fact that they haven't stropped Leviathan before the next wave of minor fleets shows that either the defense against the Tyranids is getting worse or their tactics are getting better.

-Loki- wrote:

Dytalus wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
I checked lexicanum, because I'm a poor man with no money for the rulebooks and novels, the battleship detonated its cores in the heart of the fleet, so one of your points is moot

Index Astartes III said that ship exploded near the Hive Fleet.

Unfortunately, IA 3 is older than the current 'Nid Codex, which states the Dominus Astra detonated in the heart of the fleet. The 4th edition Codex also said this. So I think the more recent version takes precedent.

And yet, Behemoth isn't gone. The fact that it was the hive fleet that took part in the Medusa Campaign, long after the Battle for Macragge, proves this. There's recent fluff that says that 'several tendrils of Behemoth were defeated'. While they defeated the fleet directly threatening Macragge, it wasn't all of Behemoth.

The fact that the current codex states that more hive fleets are arriving even after Leviathan means, well, Leviathan isn't the last. Yes, they're minor hive fleets, but that fits with their behaviour. Minor hive fleets hit, then a major hive fleet, then minor fleets, then a major fleet. The fact that they haven't stropped Leviathan before the next wave of minor fleets shows that either the defense against the Tyranids is getting worse or their tactics are getting better.

Oh I agree entirely. Behemoth's kind of a sticky issue, since some fluff seems to indicate all of it was destroyed, and some of it states that (like Kraken) parts of it survived. The Tyranid Codex only states that the fleet was decimated by the act of the Dominus Astra, rather than entirely wiped out. It's not hard to believe pieces of it broke off after its defeat at Macragge.

Brother Coa wrote:"Leviathan, the last and latest five fleet to enter the galaxy..."

Sounds like last to me.

This is also contradicted earlier in the codex where it says the 3 Hive Fleets are just a part of a far greater and more terrifying force.

GW is fun like that.

Psienesis wrote:

But the explosion still has a certain radius. The tyranids could just simply choose to spread out so much that even in a warp engine detonation, it won't take out much of their hive fleet.

Then you can destroy them through conventional means, because this will render the Tyranid's greatest weapon (overwhelming numbers) impotent. The swarm is too spread out to easily support its members, and allows the Astartes to more easily clear paths to the Synapse Creatures and Norn Queen, thus spelling doom to the entire hive.

Context my friend

I was just poking for holes in the argument.

I've always wondered why the Hive Mind just doesn't create a virus species and drop them on world after world with spores. It'd probably be able to adapt to any cure as well. Silly Hive Mind.

Harriticus wrote:I've always wondered why the Hive Mind just doesn't create a virus species and drop them on world after world with spores. It'd probably be able to adapt to any cure as well. Silly Hive Mind.

As much as they consume and adapt, the Tyranids would likely be able to do this, except for the fact that they would have to little of a reason to fight. Nearly everything would be dead or dying when they made planet-fall, and in general would just be too powerful.

Pesonally, I'm happy with where the Tyranids are at in the fluff (barring a few inconsistencies, plot armor, etc.) If only they had a better Codex and their Second Wave...

simple, turn off the night light that the IoM call the astronomican, but if the golden throne is failing then chances are next edition it wont even need to be turned off...
nothing says "Dinner is Served" to a tyranid quite like a giant pulsing beacon in the warp that can be picked up from the opposite end of the universe

How effective against nids would it be to get some radical inquisitor to summon some daemons on them? Or would that just lead to a whole new set of problems...

Now that is a very good question. The outcome might end up being some kind of Daemonicly influenced Tyranids.

I recall the Iron Warriors infecting a hive ship with the obliterator virus, severing its link to the hive mind and making it usable by marines. Perhaps the imperium could also go this route. (as guerilla-type strikes in conjunction with a more conventional strategy, as it would likely take some time for the virus to take hold)

Being a supreme psychic being I think the Hive Mind could keep chaos from corrupting the Nids. if anything the daemons might just completely dissipate due to the hive mind cutting them off from the warp.

Doesn't shadow in the warp prevent daemonic incursions?

Yes, no, maybe?


The Shadow is kinda like jamming radio channels with tons of white noise. it doesn't make it impossable, just horrendously difficult.

I would think that it would be nearly impossable to create a new incursion with the shadow in the warp around, but an existing incursion would probably still function(But the daemons would be a heck of a lot more unstable and the Hive Mind might just close the warp rift with its own power)

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Doesn't shadow in the warp prevent daemonic incursions?

Hmm.. this brings up a new thing, if shadow in the warp prevents daemon incursions, then the chaos gods would be really worried about tyranids, so even the chaos gods themselves would want to send daemons at nids, not even an inquistor

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, no, maybe?


The Shadow is kinda like jamming radio channels with tons of white noise. it doesn't make it impossable, just horrendously difficult.

I would think that it would be nearly impossable to create a new incursion with the shadow in the warp around, but an existing incursion would probably still function(But the daemons would be a heck of a lot more unstable and the Hive Mind might just close the warp rift with its own power)

So if the warp rift is big enough, daemons can pour out

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, no, maybe?


The Shadow is kinda like jamming radio channels with tons of white noise. it doesn't make it impossable, just horrendously difficult.

I would think that it would be nearly impossable to create a new incursion with the shadow in the warp around, but an existing incursion would probably still function(But the daemons would be a heck of a lot more unstable and the Hive Mind might just close the warp rift with its own power)

So if the warp rift is big enough, daemons can pour out

They can pour out a rift of any size, its just more difficult for them to do it and they have more trouble maintaining their physical forms. So they are easier to "kill"

Remulus wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Doesn't shadow in the warp prevent daemonic incursions?

Hmm.. this brings up a new thing, if shadow in the warp prevents daemon incursions, then the chaos gods would be really worried about tyranids, so even the chaos gods themselves would want to send daemons at nids, not even an inquistor

The chaos gods aren't actually too fussed with the mundane world

As far as the nids go the imperium seems to be the most successful when they meet them in space.

EmilCrane wrote:

Remulus wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Doesn't shadow in the warp prevent daemonic incursions?

Hmm.. this brings up a new thing, if shadow in the warp prevents daemon incursions, then the chaos gods would be really worried about tyranids, so even the chaos gods themselves would want to send daemons at nids, not even an inquistor

The chaos gods aren't actually too fussed with the mundane world

As far as the nids go the imperium seems to be the most successful when they meet them in space.

But people dying in the material world would affect them. I mean if there's no one left to worship them, wouldn't they weaken?

daemonic incursion =/= chaos corruption

Belexar wrote:Capture the Swarmlord and throw him into the Eye of Terror. Just to see what happens.

Brilliant! Simply Brilliant!

Burrow deep to the core of planets in the path of hive fleets and set of enough explosives to destroy world AFTER the nids start invading, they lose all resources + any bioships caught in the blast radius of the exploding planet. Imperium is the only race really able to do this and not suffer too much because they have over a million worlds in there fold.

Cruzer_92 wrote:Burrow deep to the core of planets in the path of hive fleets and set of enough explosives to destroy world AFTER the nids start invading, they lose all resources + any bioships caught in the blast radius of the exploding planet. Imperium is the only race really able to do this and not suffer too much because they have over a million worlds in there fold.

That's called an exterminatus

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:

Remulus wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Doesn't shadow in the warp prevent daemonic incursions?

Hmm.. this brings up a new thing, if shadow in the warp prevents daemon incursions, then the chaos gods would be really worried about tyranids, so even the chaos gods themselves would want to send daemons at nids, not even an inquistor

The chaos gods aren't actually too fussed with the mundane world

As far as the nids go the imperium seems to be the most successful when they meet them in space.

But people dying in the material world would affect them. I mean if there's no one left to worship them, wouldn't they weaken?

The Warp is connected to every galaxy, across an infinite number of material planes. What happens in the Milky Way is of no more importance than a single tree is to the world. Which, hilariously enough, also distances the greater, more dangerous powers of Chaos (not just the Gods, but their higher servants as well) from anything the least bit relevant to the setting, making warpspawn much less of a threat than they could be.


More on topic, the most effective strategy for fighting tyranids is to simply field any appreciable number of decent troops and equipment against them. So Space Marines die like flies, but a few thousand/tens of thousands of Guard and a halfway decent Naval Picket stops them dead in their tracks. As they close in on areas of actual strategic value, instead of the isolated backwaters of the Ultima Segmentum, proper defenses will become more common, and the Tyranid advance will fall apart.

blazinpsycho&typhoon! wrote:That's called an exterminatus

Not really. Exterminatus usually involves a battleship launching virus bombs, cyclonic torpedoes or atmospheric incinerator torpedoes, but in this case the ship would be taken down by the orbiting tyranid ships or the torpedoes intercepted in some way.

What he is suggesting is basically a planet sized mine.

Which in a sense is still an exterminatus as the planet is still destroyed