The Monilith has an ability called the Portal of exile. sucks enemy units into the portal killing them. OK My question is it say that it's treated as a shooting attack. But no where does it say target a unit. So could I move up next to a unit in close combat and use the Portal of Exile?

Playing against the new necrons, that's how I played it. It sucked one of my kans that was in combat with his overlord., leaving the overlord safe.

Looking at the rules now, it definitely suggests that units in combat are unaffected via the shooting statement, though I'm unsure. I don't mind if we played it wrong, it was a fun game

If it is a shooting attack then you cannot target a unit engaged unless it says otherwise.

I doesn't say anything about targeting anyone or anything. It only say enemy models not units within d6 inches of the door.

Yes, but the portal of exile doesn't target anything. It just says any enemy model in range gets hoovered.

AFAIK there are only two ways to "shoot" a model locked in CC.
1. Eldar Vibro Cannon (which was FAQ'd to include models locked in CC).
2. Blast weapons that scattered into CC.

In both of these cases, however, the unit locked in CC was not targeted. In the Vibro cannon's case, you don't need to pick a target.

Yeah that's what we are saying you never TARGET a unit. So you should be allowed to do this. Specially since you can't hit your own units with it.

Just to point out, all other "weapons" that don't have a target (i.e. Blood Lance) do not affect units locked in CC. The only reason the Vibro Cannon does is because of the FAQ. It has nothing to do with affecting them because you don't need a target.

Well all it states is every enemy model in range. Would the door be treated as an aura effect?

It can effect models in close combat, same as Sweep Atttacks

Happyjew wrote:AFAIK there are only two ways to "shoot" a model locked in CC.
1. Eldar Vibro Cannon (which was FAQ'd to include models locked in CC).
2. Blast weapons that scattered into CC.

In both of these cases, however, the unit locked in CC was not targeted. In the Vibro cannon's case, you don't need to pick a target.

3. Necron Death Ray also targets the ground, not units, so can hit things in CC.
4. Inquisitor Karamazov can target into CC.

ok so it can it things in CC. but it just can't target them for the shot?

You dont target ANY unit with the Portal, it just affects any enemy unit within range

nosferatu1001 wrote:You dont target ANY unit with the Portal, it just affects any enemy unit within range

Just to correct, it affects enemy models, not units, and the enemy models must have LOS to the portal.

Which will open the entire can of worms about whether a walker with its back to the portal would have LOS to the portal!

DarknessEternal wrote:

Happyjew wrote:AFAIK there are only two ways to "shoot" a model locked in CC.
1. Eldar Vibro Cannon (which was FAQ'd to include models locked in CC).
2. Blast weapons that scattered into CC.

In both of these cases, however, the unit locked in CC was not targeted. In the Vibro cannon's case, you don't need to pick a target.

3. Necron Death Ray also targets the ground, not units, so can hit things in CC.
4. Inquisitor Karamazov can target into CC.

5. Tesla Destructor's Arc rule hits units in CC, but can also hit friendlies in the process.

Time - or any infantry model, as they cannot see behind them....

Are Strength, Initiative, Toughness, ect. Tests taken against unmodified Characteristics only? I know there are some particular abilities that say "take an X test against and unmodified X Characteristic", but what about in general?

No, see the rules for characterisitc tests on page 8, there is no requirement for unmodified in general

nosferatu1001 wrote:Time - or any infantry model, as they cannot see behind them....

True, so a good counter tactic is to just face away from the monolith on your own turn.
But of course for walkers this exposes your rear armour to the particle whip and 1 or 2 gauss flux arcs!

nosferatu1001 wrote:Time - or any infantry model, as they cannot see behind them....

So, would there be an "arc" of fire from the facing of the model's eyes? If I assault a Monolith, other than being in Base to Base contact, do I have to turn my models towards the target? I've got a tournament coming up next weekend, and I will probably be seeing a lot o' Necrons. Just want to know what the real rules are before a TO rules differently.

"The Portal of Exile is treated as a shooting attack" and is therefore done in the shooting phase. Rulebook p15, 'The Shooting Phase' -Disallowed shooting, "units that are locked in combat with the foe." However it hits ALL models just like the Death Ray hits ALL enemy units. The Tesla Destructor also states it hits unengaged units. The Blood Lance specifically says it misses them. The only problem is the Monolith will hoover up your friendlies as well.

On a side note I played this the other day, my Monolith DSed into a 60 man Crimson Fist horde, 13 survived the strength test, an the Particle Whip promptly scattered 11"

It's a shooting attack. The first line of the rule specifically says so. That means models locked in CC are not affected. All enemy models within D6" of the door and can see the door are targeted.

And the rule specifies that the victims must have LOS to the Monolith, as opposed to the Monolith having LOS to the victims. That means, fluff-wise, I think the effect is supposed to be just like the existentialist vacuums from the movie "Skyline". Did anyone see that?

.
.
.

No? Oh.

Great movie but a little short. Moving swiftly on I think we should wait till the FAQ. I can see it working fluff wise but its OP in the game if you can hit an entire unit in combat.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Time - or any infantry model, as they cannot see behind them....

So, would there be an "arc" of fire from the facing of the model's eyes? If I assault a Monolith, other than being in Base to Base contact, do I have to turn my models towards the target? I've got a tournament coming up next weekend, and I will probably be seeing a lot o' Necrons. Just want to know what the real rules are before a TO rules differently.

That's one of the big grey areas in the current rules. Technically, infantry models would have an arc of sight defined by where their head is pointing, but it's not set as any specific arc in the rules, and it's not particularly easy to tell just how far around to the side a model would be able to see.

In most situations, that doesn't really matter. It only becomes a problem for things like Rage, or the Monolith.

If they ever get around to FAQing it, I would suspect that GW will just say to treat infantry as having a 360 degree arc of sight, since that's pretty much how most people play it anyway. For a tournament, I would strongly recommend asking the TO how they would rule on it before the event, so you're clear going in.

insaniak wrote:treat infantry as having a 360 degree arc of sight

What about bikes?

All non-vehicle models would be the same, as they all use the same LOS rules.

azazel the cat wrote:It's a shooting attack. The first line of the rule specifically says so. That means models locked in CC are not affected. All enemy models within D6" of the door and can see the door are targeted.

Models in CC can absolutely be affected by shooting attacks. Blasts that scatter onto the CC are the easiest example. Units in CC cannot be targeted by a shooting attack, but that's not the same thing as not being affected, and I don't think the Monolith has to declare a target for the door.

rigeld2 wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:It's a shooting attack. The first line of the rule specifically says so. That means models locked in CC are not affected. All enemy models within D6" of the door and can see the door are targeted.

Models in CC can absolutely be affected by shooting attacks. Blasts that scatter onto the CC are the easiest example. Units in CC cannot be targeted by a shooting attack, but that's not the same thing as not being affected, and I don't think the Monolith has to declare a target for the door.

An good point. I would then treat it as if it were a 180 degree D6" template with no target. I guess that could suck models out of CC and through the door.

Okay, I'm not fully convinced, but you've swayed me enough that I'd probably vote your way.

phantommaster wrote:"The Portal of Exile is treated as a shooting attack" and is therefore done in the shooting phase. Rulebook p15, 'The Shooting Phase' -Disallowed shooting, "units that are locked in combat with the foe." However it hits ALL models just like the Death Ray hits ALL enemy units. The Tesla Destructor also states it hits unengaged units. The Blood Lance specifically says it misses them. The only problem is the Monolith will hoover up your friendlies as well.

On a side note I played this the other day, my Monolith DSed into a 60 man Crimson Fist horde, 13 survived the strength test, an the Particle Whip promptly scattered 11"

Portal of Exile only effects enemy models. And I hope you weren't deep striking and firing both your Ordnance weapon and the Shooting attack of the Portal of exile. You can't make the shooting attack of the portal when you fire an ordnance weapon.

phantommaster wrote:
On a side note I played this the other day, my Monolith DSed into a 60 man Crimson Fist horde, 13 survived the strength test, an the Particle Whip promptly scattered 11"

It's not possible for 60 enemy models to be within 1"-6" of the portal.

Given a 6" radius circle can hold around 144 models, this doesnt seem too unlikely

NecronLord3 wrote:

phantommaster wrote:"The Portal of Exile is treated as a shooting attack" and is therefore done in the shooting phase. Rulebook p15, 'The Shooting Phase' -Disallowed shooting, "units that are locked in combat with the foe." However it hits ALL models just like the Death Ray hits ALL enemy units. The Tesla Destructor also states it hits unengaged units. The Blood Lance specifically says it misses them. The only problem is the Monolith will hoover up your friendlies as well.

On a side note I played this the other day, my Monolith DSed into a 60 man Crimson Fist horde, 13 survived the strength test, an the Particle Whip promptly scattered 11"

Portal of Exile only effects enemy models. And I hope you weren't deep striking and firing both your Ordnance weapon and the Shooting attack of the Portal of exile. You can't make the shooting attack of the portal when you fire an ordnance weapon.

I just want to clarify that you can Deep Strike and shoot the Particle Whip.

You're right about not shooting everything else though.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Given a 6" radius circle can hold around 144 models, this doesnt seem too unlikely

A lot of that circle is taken up by the Monolith itself, so...

I know it is; i was just pointing out how many can be contained WITHIN 6", wholly, when as we know you only have to be 0.0......01" inside 6"

nosferatu1001 wrote:Given a 6" radius circle can hold around 144 models, this doesnt seem too unlikely

They have to be within 1"-6" and LoS of the portal, not the Monolith. (well, 1" unless they had assaulted the Monolith previously).

It's larger than a semi-circle, as the effect doesn't have a center point, but rather a 3 dimensional door from which the effect is measured. The does is what? Inch and a quarter, inch and a half?

Is a monolith type Tank? Tank shock to bunch them up, then open door.

-Matt

Darkness - yes, I know they have to be within 1 - 6", you would be surprised just how may models can fit inside.

Your claim of "impossible" hasnt actually been calculated by you,has it? You just made a bald statement that is not true.

Ok the people saying that they don't have line of site because they are turned around. Really people? That's just dumb. If a dreden. or anything else just because its turned around. Well we should all just run our units backwards so nothing can shoot them. I get what you are saying but really people.

Running your models backwards means that *you* can't shoot - not that you can't be shot.
The magic door is the only thing that relies on the target having LoS to the shooter.

I wasn't being serious. It was a joke like saying the dredn. Thing was as stupid as that. A dredn and all models still have a 360 line of site. When you assault a dredn you don't attack the rear armor because it can pivot on the spot. I just think it was a dumb statement so I stated another dumb statement.

bladedragon03 wrote:I wasn't being serious. It was a joke like saying the dredn. Thing was as stupid as that. A dredn and all models still have a 360 line of site. When you assault a dredn you don't attack the rear armor because it can pivot on the spot. I just think it was a dumb statement so I stated another dumb statement.

Except that isn't true. Drednaughts explicitly do not have a 360 degree line of sight - they have to swivel to face their shooting target, and site along their guns. Yes, you're correct when you say that you don't hit rear armor automatically in CC - but that has absolutely zero to do with line of sight.

The first statement was dumb but accurate. Your statement was dumb and inaccurate.

Good job with that but really it does have a 360 line of sight just not when shooting its weapons. As far as the game rules go yes a walker has a 45 angle of shooting with line of sight. He's not going to miss that big monolith that could suck it up if close enough. Just because his shooting line of sight is limited doesn't mean his normal line of sight isn't. So if I deep strike behind one it shouldn't turn around and attack me because I would never know that I'm there. I'm all about someone should know there rules but that is stretching it a bit far saying it wouldn't have line of sight because its back is turned.

No. Line of Sight has a specific connotation in the game. If you deep strike behind someone, they won't be able to see you - but your army (because you're the general) knows they're there.

You're trying to conflate "line of sight" with awareness - not only does the latter not exist in the game, they aren't even the same thing in "real life".

Well I'm talking game not real life. So you can stop there. What if the general is in cc? Plus in real life that thing would have a camera or something eat watching is back. Awareness you need some sight to operate that thing. I stupid for going about this for so long. End of discussion the dredn. would see a monolith that is 6" away from it even if its back is to the monolith.

bladedragon03 wrote: End of discussion the dredn. would see a monolith that is 6" away from it even if its back is to the monolith.

Except it doesn't, because the rules don't work like that. The only time the rules define what the dreadnought can see is for shooting... and they explicitly define it as only being able to see in a 45 degree arc in the direction its weapons are pointing.

rigeld2 wrote:Running your models backwards means that *you* can't shoot - not that you can't be shot.
The magic door is the only thing that relies on the target having LoS to the shooter.

Perhaps object permanence doesn't exist in the world of 40k?

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:I wasn't being serious. It was a joke like saying the dredn. Thing was as stupid as that. A dredn and all models still have a 360 line of site. When you assault a dredn you don't attack the rear armor because it can pivot on the spot. I just think it was a dumb statement so I stated another dumb statement.

Except that isn't true. Drednaughts explicitly do not have a 360 degree line of sight - they have to swivel to face their shooting target, and site along their guns. Yes, you're correct when you say that you don't hit rear armor automatically in CC - but that has absolutely zero to do with line of sight.

The first statement was dumb but accurate. Your statement was dumb and inaccurate.

Does any of it really matter? I wasn't aware that a Dreadnought could even fail a strength test.

They fail on a 6.

bladedragon03 wrote:Well I'm talking game not real life. So you can stop there. What if the general is in cc? Plus in real life that thing would have a camera or something eat watching is back. Awareness you need some sight to operate that thing. I stupid for going about this for so long. End of discussion the dredn. would see a monolith that is 6" away from it even if its back is to the monolith.

So your assertion is that if you can't "see" something, it's not possible to react to it?

I'm not sure how to respond to that. By the way - please try and type legibly - I can read what you're typing, but it takes more effort than it should.

edit: also, if you're not arguing realism then you have no basis for those statements - the rules are pretty clear.

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:Well I'm talking game not real life. So you can stop there. What if the general is in cc? Plus in real life that thing would have a camera or something eat watching is back. Awareness you need some sight to operate that thing. I stupid for going about this for so long. End of discussion the dredn. would see a monolith that is 6" away from it even if its back is to the monolith.

So your assertion is that if you can't "see" something, it's not possible to react to it?

I'm not sure how to respond to that. By the way - please try and type legibly - I can read what you're typing, but it takes more effort than it should.

edit: also, if you're not arguing realism then you have no basis for those statements - the rules are pretty clear.

Ok when firing a walkers weapons you measure the range and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel. When measuring range you measure from the walkers base, as you would for an infantry model. If a walker doesn't have one. You would then measure from the hull. Firing the walkers own weapons is an exception to this.

So yes even if a walker is turned around it would still get sucked in by the monolith's door. There's your proof page 72 big red book.

DarknessEternal wrote:

phantommaster wrote:
On a side note I played this the other day, my Monolith DSed into a 60 man Crimson Fist horde, 13 survived the strength test, an the Particle Whip promptly scattered 11"

It's not possible for 60 enemy models to be within 1"-6" of the portal.

Well not with that attitude

So walkers can see behind them? You can't shoot behind you without turning the model, so you don't have LoS behind you. In case you missed it, LoS rules are on page 16.

Have I gone completely out of my mind, or can Walkers pivot in the shooting phase?

I seem to recall that from somewhere.

Monster Rain wrote:Have I gone completely out of my mind, or can Walkers pivot in the shooting phase?

I seem to recall that from somewhere.

They can - and must - pivot to face their target.

rigeld2 wrote:So walkers can see behind them? You can't shoot behind you without turning the model, so you don't have LoS behind you. In case you missed it, LoS rules are on page 16.

It states that you treat walkers as infantry unless they are shooting their own guns. Infantry pretty much have a 360 line of sight. It's not written in the big red book, but they do. It's just that 95% of the time you have the models facing the way they are shooting. They just turn their head. Simple.

For example Nemesor can give units abilities that are in his line of sight. He can give units that are behind him these abilities even though he's not facing them. He just turns his head and says hey you got this.

bladedragon03 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:So walkers can see behind them? You can't shoot behind you without turning the model, so you don't have LoS behind you. In case you missed it, LoS rules are on page 16.

It states that you treat walkers as infantry unless they are shooting their own guns. Infantry pretty much have a 360 line of sight. It's not written in the big red book, but they do. It's just that 95% of the time you have the models facing the way they are shooting. They just turn their head. Simple.

For example Nemesor can give units abilities that are in his line of sight. He can give units that are behind him these abilities even though he's not facing them. He just turns his head and says hey you got this.

Infantry facing doesn't matter, so they're assumed to be looking at their target. Walker facing matters, so they must face their target. Line of sight is explicitly traced from the models eye's - unless you're asserting models have eye's in the back of their heads, they explicitly do not have LoS behind them. Nem can spin in place, give a power, then spin back - that doesn't mean he has LoS behind him.

Walkers facing does matter I agree with you. But as for line of site when they aren't shooting their own weapons. They are treated as infantry like the book states. So if I go by what you say the model would turn and then turn back around.

They are treated as infantry in that you get down and site through their "eyes" for non shooting purposes. I never said you can pivot out of phase (especially not your opponents phase) just to gain line of sight.


Regardless of any of that - there's *nothing* forcing you to look behind you, so models that are facing away explicitly do not have LoS behind them.

Ok so you are saying that Nemesor wouldn't be able to give a unit behind him an ability because he's facing away from them and not have line of site. Well Nemesor's ability is done at the start of the turn not the movement. There's nothing that says he doesn't see behind him unless its for the purpose of shooting his own weapons. Since he is treated as infantry then by your words it would spin or turn its head and then spin or turn its head back.

The reason they put line of site for the enemy is so the monolith couldn't suck people through walls and other impassable terrain.

Either I'm failing at getting my point across or I'm talking to a wall. Either way, I'm done.

I get your point. I'm not so sure you get mine. I'm just stating what the book says for the most part. Either way glad to hear we are both done.

Blade - no, youre not stating what the book states. If you'd read a bit more, you would find:

1) Infantry do NOT have 360 degree line of sight. Proof? The book never says they DO, which means they dont

2) Infantry MUST turn to face what they are shooting at, and THEN you trace LOS, furhter proof that Infantry do not have 360 degree LOS

So this leads us inexorably to:

C1) Walkers not only do NOT have 360 degree LOS, they actually have a 45 degree arc of sight (please, not "site") from each weapon

C2) Walkers facing away from the portal are immune
C3) Nemesor cannot help unit behind him, as he does not have LOS to them

Worst rule in the dex. It's like a little kid shutting his eyes real tight and covering his head with a blanket so the bogeyman won't get him at night...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Blade - no, youre not stating what the book states. If you'd read a bit more, you would find:

1) Infantry do NOT have 360 degree line of sight. Proof? The book never says they DO, which means they dont

2) Infantry MUST turn to face what they are shooting at, and THEN you trace LOS, furhter proof that Infantry do not have 360 degree LOS

So this leads us inexorably to:

C1) Walkers not only do NOT have 360 degree LOS, they actually have a 45 degree arc of sight (please, not "site") from each weapon

C2) Walkers facing away from the portal are immune
C3) Nemesor cannot help unit behind him, as he does not have LOS to them

Ok if we go by what you are saying then yes that's all true. I just figured infantry had a 360 LoS because it sounds stupid to say you don't have LoS because you aren't facing them when all he has to do is turn his head. Do they really have to write that in the book or can we just use our brains little?
Also walkers have a 180 LoS if we are going by what you say just not when they are shooting.

It's not what "I'm" saying, its what the rules say.

This game is an abstraction, one of which is that Infantry do not have 360 LOS. So please dont throw insults of "using our brains little" - you're playing an IGOUGO game about space elves and GM xenophobic facist knights. Realism is not exactly high on the list of topics....

Also - where did you get the Walkers have a 180 degree LOS? They have NO LOS, technically, outside of shooting - as that is the only time their LOS is mentioned

I'm done with this bro. I don't care to argue any more. If you want to play to the rules to that level of detail then fine play that way. The game shop I play and and most other game shops I've been to would just laugh and say really. But by wording of the book you are right. It's just dumb in my opinion to say that Nemesor can't give a unit the special ability becuause he's not facing them. When really its just a turn of the head. Just because the book doesn't say they it doesn't mean they don't because it doesn't say they don't either. Like I said before the rule is really there just so people can't suck thing through walls or other impassable terrain. There you go I'm done with fourm. Also from the eyes perspective do you have a 45 angle LoS? Because I don't and I don't think our models would either. Another thing is that you only check LoS when it shoots its shooting. Any other in instance you should go off the head where the guy is operating it from giving him a 180 view like infantry models. They are treated like infantry for other range purposes.

@Maelstrom I think a better example would be throwing a towel over your head when confronted by a ravenous bugblatter beast of traal (who then will simply assume that since you do not have LOS to it, it does not have LOS to you).
@Nos, does this mean Wraithguard/lords are also immune to Portal of Exile since they technically cannot draw LOS on anything? (jk)

blade - fair enough, ragequit if you need to. You appear to not realise that this isnt an actual game, but a forum dedicated to talking about the actual rules of the game.

As for the whole 180 degree LOS thing - no, walkers do not have 180 degree LOS, because you cannot find a rule saying they do The entire game is permission base, and the only LOS permission you have for ANY walker ANYWHERE is in shooting.

Again, you are making up that infantry have a 180 degree LOS. That is a complete and utter fabrication not based anywhere in rules.

Happy - yep, theyre immune to it, but sadly cannot fire as they cannot draw LOS

Thats Ok, I don't use Wraithguard, and my Wraithlords are bullet sponges/CC monsters anyway, so I don't need LOS heh heh.

nosferatu1001 wrote:blade - fair enough, ragequit if you need to. You appear to not realise that this isnt an actual game, but a forum dedicated to talking about the actual rules of the game.

As for the whole 180 degree LOS thing - no, walkers do not have 180 degree LOS, because you cannot find a rule saying they do The entire game is permission base, and the only LOS permission you have for ANY walker ANYWHERE is in shooting.

Again, you are making up that infantry have a 180 degree LOS. That is a complete and utter fabrication not based anywhere in rules.

Happy - yep, theyre immune to it, but sadly cannot fire as they cannot draw LOS

Ok let's go Nosferatu. There is nothing in the book that states that any models have a 180 degree LoS. You can't find it because it's not there. Can you find the rule saying that they don't? You won't because its not there either. Ok on to my earlier point. LoS is only measured from the guns of a walker on it's shooting phase. Now if something makes you check for that out of phase like the Monolith could. Then you would have to check from the models head where the operator of the walker is since the walker is not shooting. You treat the walk as you would an infantry model as stated on page 72 unless shooting its own weapons. Since the rules don't tell us what do other we have to treat it like infantry and measure from where ever the head of the operator is. On a Dredn. this would be the head of it. Now when you measure line of sight you view it from the models eyes. Now you mean to tell me when you are looking at from a models viewpoint you would only be able to see right in front of it or 180 degrees of it's front. The models eyes should be able to see everything in front of it and to it's sides. So it's not written but when you view from the model guess what it sees everything within an X range of a 180 radius of it. You can't tell me that a Monolith gets within 1" or an enemy unit. The Monolith is on the east side of the unit and all the models facing North. You are trying to say that the models can't see the monolith which would be directly right of the unit withing 1" because they are facing forward or North as stated?
If so then you have a very very very messed up way of playing this game. I mean come one man they shouldn't have to write every single thing in the book down because some of it is common sense. From the models eyes would be like looking through your own eyes and unless you only have one or no eyes at all then you see everything that in front of you within a 180 radius. That's all things that aren't hidden of course.

bladedragon03 wrote:Ok let's go Nosferatu. There is nothing in the book that states that any models have a 180 degree LoS. You can't find it because it's not there. Can you find the rule saying that they don't? You won't because its not there either.

Stop. You've already failed. It's a permissive rules set - if there isn't a rule allowing it, it isn't allowed.

edit: also, use the enter key. It makes things far more readable.

No you failed to read on. Becuase the rule is the eyes of the model. When if you are looking then it is 180 degree radius of the front of the model. Just because it's not written doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Look at the wording and common sense tells you on well from the eye of the model would be anything within a 180 degree of the front of the models facing. At least answer the question. In no part of the rule book does it say that the models LoS can't see to the left or right of their front facing. It doesn't say anything about an angle for LoS either. So according to how you read the BRB how do the models see what would be the angle of LoS?

Blade - "let's go"? What are you, 12?

The game is permissive. That means unless the rules say you CAN do something, you CANNOT do it.

This means you CANNOT measure LOS for a dreadnought WITHOUT referencing their weapons, as this is the ONLY allowance they have for measuring LOS.

You also still apparently dont understand the point of this forum, or apparently what the return key does

nosferatu1001 wrote:Blade - "let's go"? What are you, 12?

The game is permissive. That means unless the rules say you CAN do something, you CANNOT do it.

This means you CANNOT measure LOS for a dreadnought WITHOUT referencing their weapons, as this is the ONLY allowance they have for measuring LOS.

You also still apparently dont understand the point of this forum, or apparently what the return key does

No I understand it quite well. I just don't care. Yeah I am 12. so what about it? The only reason that rule isn't there is because this is the first time something has ever called for something to have LoS to it out of its own phase. This is way after the rule book was made. So to follow it up you should go back to a earlier rule. This isn't risk the rules change as new codexs come out. Let's just leave the dred out. Infantry is have a 180 vision of LoS.

bladedragon03 wrote:Infantry is have a 180 vision of LoS.

Please cite the rule.

""Infantry is have a 180 vision of LoS. "

Wrong, they do not.

While it is possible, that 6th ed will come out and say that infantry have 360 degree LOS (or something), in the meantime they can only see what you see if you put your head down at their level behind their head. And as was pointed out (jokingly) since some models don't have "eyes" they will be unaffected by the Portal, but cannot shoot.

Ok so what I made a typo. I'm writing all this from my phone. Yes they do have a LoS of a 180 degrees. The rule is you look as though you are looking through the models eyes. Well the models eye sight would be 180 degrees like ours unless you are blind or only have one eye. Let's say a monolith were to deep strike next to a unit and try to suck them up through the door. Are you all saying no the models can't see to their left or right?

Most people have approximately 180 degrees LOS. Some people actually have approximately 240 degree arc, depending on how good their peripheral vision is. Since LOS is checked by "seeing what your models can see" this means most models will have 180 degree LOS. UNFORTUNATELY this is all based off of real world applications which goes against rule 3 of YMDC (more or less).

blade- again you are posting "rules" which do not exist, against the tenets of the forum

They said they chose LoS because they wanted it to feel like you were in a movie. To make the game feel more real. They didn't put something so obvious in because they figure everyone has common sense to know.

No one is answering my question. I think this is because the answer to my question proves that they would have 180 LoS.

No I'm not adding rules. I'm just stating what should be obvious to anyone. You guys are just being way to specific and detailed about the rules.

Tell me what page it is on that says that an infantry models LoS is prohibited to. Because the way I read it the models eyes can see a lot more then what most of you are saying they can. Like everything that's not hidden that's in front of them and to their sides.

So, what youre trying to say is: there arent actually ANY rules supporting my position, so I'm going to continue to whitter on ignoring the tenets of the forum by throwing out "common sense" and "it doesnt say they cant"

When firing an infantry model, the *only time their LOS is defined* you are told to point them directly at the enemy. Not to the side. Not 90 degrees left, but directly at them.

I have shown the page which defines their LOS; you need to find a rule that actually supports your view, or quit posting contrary to the tenets of this forum

Seems to me that the following quote clears up troops and LOS.

"Line of Sight literally represents your warriors view of the enemy - they must be able to see their foe through, under or over the tangle of terrain and other fighters on the battlefield"

Use this in conjunction with the models true LOS.

IMO it reads that the model does indeed have a 180 degree los. If the model can't see it, it can't shoot.

If a model is behind a unit they can't see it. Just because you, as the general have a total oversight of the board does not mean that your models have that same advantage.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, what youre trying to say is: there arent actually ANY rules supporting my position, so I'm going to continue to whitter on ignoring the tenets of the forum by throwing out "common sense" and "it doesnt say they cant"

When firing an infantry model, the *only time their LOS is defined* you are told to point them directly at the enemy. Not to the side. Not 90 degrees left, but directly at them.

I have shown the page which defines their LOS; you need to find a rule that actually supports your view, or quit posting contrary to the tenets of this forum

Page 11. Quote "As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, with out affecting the distance they are able to cover. Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the shooting phase, [u]SO DON'T WORRY ABOUT WHICH WAY THEY ARE POINTING AT THE END OF THE MOVEMENT PHASE."

I believe this poves that the models can judge their line of sight from and direction. Which would actually give them a 360 degrees LoS. If you combine this with the fact that the BRB states that walker are treated like infantry except when they are shooting their own weapons in their shooting phase, then the dred. would still be able to get sucked in. Is that proof enough for you all. Thank you have a nice day.

Learn to use bold, instead of CAPS. One is shouting, the other is emphasis

I also love that you entirely ignored the first bit - "Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the shooting phase"

Almost like they need to be turned to face in order to shoot, because thats how their LOS is determined.

You have no rules, you are simply wrong on this. live with it.

bladedragon03 wrote:Which would actually give them a 360 degrees LoS.

No. If they had a 360 degree LoS you wouldn't have to turn the models in the direction they're going to shoot.

As pointed out - the one really clear rule, explaining that you DO turn them to face in the shooting phase, was ignored. Instead the poster took one line about not worrying about where they are facing, in context about SHOOTING, and making up that models have a 360 degree LOS

You are the one ignoring the fact that it says don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of the movement phase. Can you just not admit that you are wrong. I know when I'm wrong but not about this.

Besides it says you can not have to. Doesn't mean that if you didn't turn then they can't shoot.

Also on Pg.11 ( Although dramatically facing off against their foes is traditional.) Not a have to.

bladedragon03 wrote:You are the one ignoring the fact that it says don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of the movement phase. Can you just not admit that you are wrong. I know when I'm wrong but not about this.

Besides it says you can not have to. Doesn't mean that if you didn't turn then they can't shoot.

It says don't worry about how they're facing at the end of the movement phase because they can turn during the shooting phase. You have to read the entire sentence.
And yes - if they're already pointing at their target they don't have to turn.

It say you can turn them to shoot not have to turn them to shoot. Just like you can reroll some dice but you don't have to reroll them.

So they can be turned in the shooting phase. Well the Monolith does that attack in the shooting phase. So the models that are effected would have to turn and look at the monolith for LoS.

You are wrong on this, for all the reaosns given already that you purposefully choose to ignore.

You have no rules support for your argument. None at all. See the box out, page 16. Guess what - you have to be able to see from their eyes, otherwise you dont have LOS. If your model is not turned towards them you dont have LOS.

End. Of.

Oh, and before you raise the "can" - you are not forced to shoot, and are not forced to have LOS. Of course, youre not shooting if you dont fulfil both of those, but THAT is why they have "can" in there.

bladedragon03 wrote:It say you can turn them to shoot not have to turn them to shoot. Just like you can reroll some dice but you don't have to reroll them.

So models can see through the back of their heads?
Page 16, right column, 2nd paragraph. "Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part ... target unit."

If you are not facing your target, you can't draw a line from your eyes to the target model.

They must turn to face their target like you have stated. This would give them LoS.

The Monolith is making them have to Check LoS and that makes them target the Monolith and make them turn to face their target.

bladedragon03 wrote:They must turn to face their target like you have stated. This would give them LoS.

The Monolith is making them have to Check LoS and that makes them target the Monolith and make them turn to face their target.

... If they want to shoot the Monolith. Since, as you correctly stated, there's nothing forcing the pivot and check - just the requirement to check LoS.
If the don't want to shoot the Monolith, they don't have to. But they also are not required to pivot to gain LoS.

I agree a Dread with back to the door can be exiled. I also feel Infantry have 360 degree LOS.

For the weapons the dread has a limited "firing arc", but assume a dread had a turret weapon atop his head, he would be able to shoot behind him just like a tank would, right? If you disagree you are saying LOS is determined by weapon loadout, that really does not make sense to me.

As for troops, some have their heads turned ever which way, I even have a necron I assembled poorly who is facing the ground right in front of himself. Would you even suggest I wouldnt be able to shoot during the shooting phase because he is looking down?

Troop facing also states "Dramatically facing off afainst their foes is traditional" (ABR p. 11)...this seem more like fluff and meant to add to flavor than actual hard and fast rules.

The fact is the rules are meant to be read with common sense. Example, "Infantry may move 6''" It doesnt state that "the player" may move they infantry, it only states that they may move. How would you look at me if I told you you cant not assist them in moving since the rule doesnt state "the player" is the one doing the moving we can just sit and wait for them to walk on their own since this is obviously what GW intended. (This is an example, I know there are parts of the book that say you move models, Im just showing how stupid the game is when played without common sense)

helixthief wrote:I agree a Dread with back to the door can be exiled. I also feel Infantry have 360 degree LOS.

Too bad the rules disagree.

For the weapons the dread has a limited "firing arc", but assume a dread had a turret weapon atop his head, he would be able to shoot behind him just like a tank would, right? If you disagree you are saying LOS is determined by weapon loadout, that really does not make sense to me.

LoS is absolutely determined by the weapon - because the requirement is to trace LoS along the weapons mount and barrel. If a dread had a turret, you'd spin the turret and then trace LoS along the barrel.

As for troops, some have their heads turned ever which way, I even have a necron I assembled poorly who is facing the ground right in front of himself. Would you even suggest I wouldnt be able to shoot during the shooting phase because he is looking down?

Strict reading of the rules - you're correct. That model cannot shoot. Just like models without eyes cannot shoot.
Normal reading of the rules - face the target and you're fine.

Troop facing also states "Dramatically facing off afainst their foes is traditional" (ABR p. 11)...this seem more like fluff and meant to add to flavor than actual hard and fast rules.

Correct - the rules on page 11 don't state you must face your target. It's optional in the movement phase.
It's not optional in the shooting phase.

The fact is the rules are meant to be read with common sense. Example, "Infantry may move 6''" It doesnt state that "the player" may move they infantry, it only states that they may move. How would you look at me if I told you you cant not assist them in moving since the rule doesnt state "the player" is the one doing the moving we can just sit and wait for them to walk on their own since this is obviously what GW intended. (This is an example, I know there are parts of the book that say you move models, Im just showing how stupid the game is when played without common sense)

Thanks for assuming I'm reading the rules without common sense. Now how about you do me a favor and quote, using the rules and not "common sense", where infantry are given a 360 line of sight.
Fun fact - common sense isn't. It's neither common, nor is it universal.
Also - how is a physical impossibility (models moving themselves) related to the LoS rules (which spell out that to determine LoS you get to a model's eye view)?

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:They must turn to face their target like you have stated. This would give them LoS.

The Monolith is making them have to Check LoS and that makes them target the Monolith and make them turn to face their target.

... If they want to shoot the Monolith. Since, as you correctly stated, there's nothing forcing the pivot and check - just the requirement to check LoS.
If the don't want to shoot the Monolith, they don't have to. But they also are not required to pivot to gain LoS.

They turn to check LoS but you are right they don't have to shoot because they aren't being ask to shoot. They are being asked to check LoS. In most cases this would be a simple turn of the head and not actually rotating the base. This would be forcing them to check like you have all stated. They just wouldn't shoot because they aren't being asked to do such a thing.

Also thanks for agreeing with me helixthief and having some common sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it's not optional in the shooting phase then the models would have to turn and check LoS to the Monolith. You have just proved yourself wrong.

So Razorback with TL Lascannon 360 degree LOS, after weapon destroyed no 360 LOS?


Im just stating common sense is read with the rules. Another example, it state "Units may choose too (run/shoot/move)" Where does it state you get to choose for them? The units have to choose not you.


Models that are facing down cant fire forward. So models that are facing forward can not see models on a 2nd floor? What about some Nids with eyes on the side of their head? Can they not fire at their intended target because once they change their facing, to face their target, it is out of LOS?


Also if you wanted to get really technical on RAW it says a line must be able to be "traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of the intended target" it also states "Models can always draw LOS through members of their own unit". If you combine these two rules a line could be drawn backwards through the head of the model (which is a memeber of his own unit, hence does not block line of sight) to the intended target.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are wrong on this, for all the reaosns given already that you purposefully choose to ignore.

You have no rules support for your argument. None at all. See the box out, page 16. Guess what - you have to be able to see from their eyes, otherwise you dont have LOS. If your model is not turned towards them you dont have LOS.

End. Of.

Oh, and before you raise the "can" - you are not forced to shoot, and are not forced to have LOS. Of course, youre not shooting if you dont fulfil both of those, but THAT is why they have "can" in there.

I do agree with this 100%

If the monolith was always assumed to be in their line of sight, no matter if it is in front, behind, of beside, then why is the rule even there? The rule serves no purpose if the unit is assumed to "see" the monolith.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:You are wrong on this, for all the reaosns given already that you purposefully choose to ignore.

You have no rules support for your argument. None at all. See the box out, page 16. Guess what - you have to be able to see from their eyes, otherwise you dont have LOS. If your model is not turned towards them you dont have LOS.

End. Of.

Oh, and before you raise the "can" - you are not forced to shoot, and are not forced to have LOS. Of course, youre not shooting if you dont fulfil both of those, but THAT is why they have "can" in there.

I do agree with this 100%

If the monolith was always assumed to be in their line of sight, no matter if it is in front, behind, of beside, then why is the rule even there? The rule serves no purpose if the unit is assumed to "see" the monolith.

The rule is there to make it impossible to pull someone through a wall.

Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

copper.talos wrote:Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

So then a unit locked in combat now has to turn to check line of sight on something they arent shooting at, or engaged in CC with?

inquisitorlewis wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

So then a unit locked in combat now has to turn to check line of sight on something they arent shooting at, or engaged in CC with?

The unit locked in close combat doesnt have to do anything. LOS is something that "is" regardless of facing for infantry.



On a related note....LOS isnt the same are Arc of Sight which is used for firing weapons on a vehicle (dreadnaught).

So, its common sense to play an IGOUGO system with 10 foot GM space knights and 1000 year old space elves flying aroundin ships without lights?

Lol

Blade - so, now youre making up that the users are "targetting" the monolith? Seriously. Thats hilarious.

Try looking back at the last 3 years of discussions on infantry LOS. You are not somehow creating a new interpretation, you have no rules support whatsoever for anything you are claiming, and are now resorting to entirely making up concepts in order to support your position.

bladedragon03 wrote:If it's not optional in the shooting phase then the models would have to turn and check LoS to the Monolith. You have just proved yourself wrong.

No. You're misunderstanding.

If you want to shoot, you have to turn. You don't have to turn if you don't want to shoot.

If I don't want to shoot the monolith, I don't have to turn to face it. I'll check LoS and fail.



As far as "They can look through their own head" no, they really can't. Read the rules - you get down to the models level, *behind* the model, to check what he sees. You don't get down in front of the model to look.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

helixthief wrote:On a related note....LOS isnt the same are Arc of Sight which is used for firing weapons on a vehicle (dreadnaught).

Please - cite the rules that mark them distinct.

I love that Helixthief put up one time that the rule is there to stop things from being pulled from walls or other impassable terrain and everyone understands it. I put it up twice and everything just ignored it. lolololololol

No, we understood it. What you are failing to understand is that you are making up rules

As far as "They can look through their own head" no, they really can't. Read the rules - you get down to the models level, *behind* the model, to check what he sees. You don't get down in front of the model to look.

[.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, we understood it. What you are failing to understand is that you are making up rules

I'm not making up rules. You have to turn the models to the target and then look for LoS. You can turn the model a full 360 for that purpose. What's made up about that. It's not written but it is a fact.

helixthief wrote:On a related note....LOS isnt the same are Arc of Sight which is used for firing weapons on a vehicle (dreadnaught).

Please - cite the rules that mark them distinct.

helixthief wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

So then a unit locked in combat now has to turn to check line of sight on something they arent shooting at, or engaged in CC with?

The unit locked in close combat doesnt have to do anything. LOS is something that "is" regardless of facing for infantry.

LOS just "is" 360 degrees? Sounds like circle of sight then.

Read page 16 of the rulebook. Read it a second time. How do you even begin to say they have 360 when it says to get down behind the model to check los? It doesn't say make them look out the eyes in the back of their head.

They have the ability to turn with no penalty to shoot, but that is not stating that they can shoot without turning. Just because most players don't bother turning all their models to shoot something, doesnt make it right.

People are acting like this is some massive revelation... when really, 99% of the time it doesn't make a difference to the game, it's absolutely playable, and only silly effects like the Monolith's door suffer.

bladedragon03 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, we understood it. What you are failing to understand is that you are making up rules

I'm not making up rules. You have to turn the models to the target and then look for LoS. You can turn the model a full 360 for that purpose. What's made up about that. It's not written but it is a fact.

The monolith is not their target. That is just ONE of the many rules you have made up.

If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way of their LoS and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

bladedragon03 wrote:If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

If they have LoS - since that's a requirement set by the doors.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

helixthief wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Common sense agrees with helixthief. Units hiding behind LoS blocking terrain will not be affected by the portal. Simply turning your back on the monolith won't help.

So then a unit locked in combat now has to turn to check line of sight on something they arent shooting at, or engaged in CC with?

The unit locked in close combat doesnt have to do anything. LOS is something that "is" regardless of facing for infantry.

LOS just "is" 360 degrees? Sounds like circle of sight then.

Read page 16 of the rulebook. Read it a second time. How do you even begin to say they have 360 when it says to get down behind the model to check los? It doesn't say make them look out the eyes in the back of their head.

They have the ability to turn with no penalty to shoot, but that is not stating that they can shoot without turning. Just because most players don't bother turning all their models to shoot something, doesnt make it right.

The "Line" is drawn between models. You cannot draw a line between 3 points if the 3rd isnt behind the 2nd in reference to the 1st. (Come on, really?)

You choose your target, line up behind your model, decide if there is a clear LOS from your model to your oppts model. The reason you get down to check LOS is obvious...because it is more effective than checking it without getting down to a "model's eye view".

BTW do you think people that use laser pointers but dont "get down" behind their model are cheating, or shouldnt be able to shoot? Just curious how far you take this.

LoS is defined as a line "traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part...". So when A shoots at B, you trace a line from A to B. But in the case of the portal the line is traced from B to A. And there lies the problem. The whole concept of LoS wasn't made with the portal in mind. That's why I said there is need for some common sense. How can it be possible for a weapon not to work just by turning your back on it?

Anyway this is an argument that's never going to reach the tables 99%. If you wish to expose your rear AV on my monolith (and anything else near by) be my guest. 1/6 chance of being sucked is a lot better than what's going to happen to it from all my str5-6-7-8s weapons.

"Behind" really what else needs to be said.

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

If they have LoS - since that's a requirement set by the doors.

Yes but they will have LOS if there is not a wall or other terrain between the two models.

There is no need to turn models, or anything else.

helixthief wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

If they have LoS - since that's a requirement set by the doors.

Yes but they will have LOS if there is not a wall or other terrain between the two models.

There is no need to turn models, or anything else.

According to what rule?

inquisitorlewis wrote:"Behind" really what else needs to be said.

What are you refering to?

...which is making up rules, 100%

Trace FROM the eyes TO the target. If there is something in the way...like the back of their own head, for example....then you dont have LOS

This means getting down behind your models to see what they can see. Laser pointers arent an issue if they are using them from behind the models.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

helixthief wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

If they have LoS - since that's a requirement set by the doors.

Yes but they will have LOS if there is not a wall or other terrain between the two models.

There is no need to turn models, or anything else.

According to what rule?

LOS rule. page 16 Assult on Black Reach book

nosferatu1001 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, we understood it. What you are failing to understand is that you are making up rules

I'm not making up rules. You have to turn the models to the target and then look for LoS. You can turn the model a full 360 for that purpose. What's made up about that. It's not written but it is a fact.

The monolith is not their target. That is just ONE of the many rules you have made up.

I didn't make anything up. You have to draw LoS from the model to the Target. The target being the door.

Nothing made up there yet another fact you just misread or misunderstood.

Looking for the quote that says they have 360?

Ah, the one that says to trace from their eyes? The one youre ignoring by claiming you can see through the back of your own head?

Stop. Making. Up. Rules

helixthief wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

If they have LoS - since that's a requirement set by the doors.

Yes but they will have LOS if there is not a wall or other terrain between the two models.

There is no need to turn models, or anything else.

So... you're going back to square one?
With no rules to back you up?

Find the rule giving infantry 360 degree LoS and I'll concede the debate to you.

nosferatu1001 wrote:...which is making up rules, 100%

Trace FROM the eyes TO the target. If there is something in the way...like the back of their own head, for example....then you dont have LOS

Why would their own head get in their way?

Do you think a model isnt a member of his own unit?

You can trace from the eyes to the target through your own unit.

I love when people who manipulate rules get mad that somebody else would manipulate a rule(like turning a dreadnought).

Suddenly I remember why I stopped playing.

With that,I am done with this thread.Only an official FAQ will clear this up, and no good will come out of this thread.

helixthief wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:...which is making up rules, 100%

Trace FROM the eyes TO the target. If there is something in the way...like the back of their own head, for example....then you dont have LOS

Why would their own head get in their way?

Do you think a model isnt a member of his own unit?

You can trace from the eyes to the target through your own unit.

Other members of the unit, not yourself. Again, stop making up rules and breaking the tenets of this forum.

rigeld2 wrote:

helixthief wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

bladedragon03 wrote:If a unit is within the doors reach and there's nothing like a wall or other impassable ter. in the way and they fail their Str. test. Say good bye.

If they have LoS - since that's a requirement set by the doors.

Yes but they will have LOS if there is not a wall or other terrain between the two models.

There is no need to turn models, or anything else.

So... you're going back to square one?
With no rules to back you up?

Find the rule giving infantry 360 degree LoS and I'll concede the debate to you.

The rules are the only thing backing me up.

Show me the rule that says they do not and Ill do the same.

BTW you never answered about Nids...some have eyes on the sides, do you think they can only fire broadside? LOL Because when they face their target their eyes are looking left and right so the target is out of LOS right.

What rules? So far you have given none, and I have given the *ACTUAL* rules

OTHER members of your unit do not block LOS. Now, unless you claim your own head is another member of the unit, you are still making gak up

nosferatu1001 wrote:

helixthief wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:...which is making up rules, 100%

Trace FROM the eyes TO the target. If there is something in the way...like the back of their own head, for example....then you dont have LOS

Why would their own head get in their way?

Do you think a model isnt a member of his own unit?

You can trace from the eyes to the target through your own unit.

Other members of the unit, not yourself. Again, stop making up rules and breaking the tenets of this forum.

Well, you cant understand. You are not allowed to just make up rules as you go. Sorry, I tried to teach and explain to you but you think you can just make up any old rule and there is no need to refer to the rules. You also must stop breaking the tenets of this forum, cause I just about had my fill of that.

If you are unsure of the forum rules refer to them.

I've already stated that's it's not in the rule book. But that fact they the models can turn when drawing LoS basically gives them a 360 LoS.

How about I say they have a LoS to whatever is in front of them but because they can turn when drawing LoS this this gives you a 360 rotation untill you line up to your target.

I never made up rules. Just stated unwritten facts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:What rules? So far you have given none, and I have given the *ACTUAL* rules

OTHER members of your unit do not block LOS. Now, unless you claim your own head is another member of the unit, you are still making gak up

So, can nids (with eyes on the side) fire forward?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bladedragon03 wrote:I've already stated that's it's not in the rule book. But that fact they the models can turn when drawing LoS basically gives them a 360 LoS.

How about I say they have a LoS to whatever is in front of them but because they can turn when drawing LoS this this gives you a 360 rotation untill you line up to your target.

I never made up rules. Just stated unwritten facts.

I dont understand why you think you have to turn the model?

Sigh. The "eyes" debate has already been covered - you know, in the first few pages of this thread.

If youve had your fill, try the mod alert button.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Sigh. The "eyes" debate has already been covered - you know, in the first few pages of this thread.

If youve had your fill, try the mod alert button.

If you are not interesting in learning, why are you on this thread?

helixthief wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:What rules? So far you have given none, and I have given the *ACTUAL* rules

OTHER members of your unit do not block LOS. Now, unless you claim your own head is another member of the unit, you are still making gak up

So, can nids (with eyes on the side) fire forward?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bladedragon03 wrote:I've already stated that's it's not in the rule book. But that fact they the models can turn when drawing LoS basically gives them a 360 LoS.

How about I say they have a LoS to whatever is in front of them but because they can turn when drawing LoS this this gives you a 360 rotation untill you line up to your target.

I never made up rules. Just stated unwritten facts.

I dont understand why you think you have to turn the model?

I'm just stating this rule because the book says to to draw LoS to make sense to these people that are so hell bent on the rules word for word.

To answer your question. In there words No it couldn't fire straight. But In my words I don't see why not. It can absolutely.

bladedragon03 wrote:

helixthief wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:What rules? So far you have given none, and I have given the *ACTUAL* rules

OTHER members of your unit do not block LOS. Now, unless you claim your own head is another member of the unit, you are still making gak up

So, can nids (with eyes on the side) fire forward?


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bladedragon03 wrote:I've already stated that's it's not in the rule book. But that fact they the models can turn when drawing LoS basically gives them a 360 LoS.

How about I say they have a LoS to whatever is in front of them but because they can turn when drawing LoS this this gives you a 360 rotation untill you line up to your target.

I never made up rules. Just stated unwritten facts.

I dont understand why you think you have to turn the model?

I'm just stating this rule because the book says to to draw LoS to make sense to these people that are so hell bent on the rules word for word.

No that is the problem....they are looking at the rules some where between word for word...and as intented.

That is the problem, if you do both how do you decide where to make the transition.

As intended...Models LOS is 360.

Word for word....Models LOS is 360.

If word for word for part of it, and as intended for the other part. Models can not shoot. (BTW why do they have a shooting phase?)

Helix - because you're spouting incorrect rules, so I'm here to educate you and dissuade others from thinking you are in any way correct.

[quote BRB, page 16]
Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit...."

nosferatu1001 wrote:Helix - because you're spouting incorrect rules, so I'm here to educate you and dissuade others from thinking you are in any way correct.

So do you think nids with eyes on the side can fire forward?

There is only two answers...

No, and you sound like a fool.

Yes and you disprove your own arguement.

And, again, if youd bothered to check the thread you would have had your asinine question answered. Shocking I know

TheGreatAvatar wrote:[quote BRB, page 16]
Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing model to any part of the body of at least one of the models in the target unit...."

Now, in general, when we play we don't turn the models necessarily to face the targeted unit, we just make the assumption the models turn and fire and what not. And, in the past, this really had little to no affect on the game play. However, the Necron codex uses LOS in a different scenario such the outcome is affected by how the model sees LOS.

The rule quoted above states the LOS is through the model's eyes to the target. If the model isn't in position to see the target then it doesn't have LOS.

So the question then is it a dick move to limit the number of shots due to models not facing the target? When can a model be turned to face its target? Before the unit selects a target? After selecting a target but before rolling dice? After rolling for hits after being corrected by opponent that some of the models are not facing the target?

I would dare say, the hugely vast number of players have played that facing the target isn't necessary when playing w40k since the model can be turned in the Shooting phase to face the target. Further, there is no fire arc restriction for non-vehicles detailed in the rules.

It just states that models can turn to face there target in the shooting phase. It doesn't say when so that means anytime in the shooting phase.

No, it means when they shoot.

You still have no rule that makes you turn them to face the monolith. Shocking that youre lacking rules, truly shocking.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And, again, if youd bothered to check the thread you would have had your asinine question answered. Shocking I know

Or you could answer it, instead of avoiding it.

You are happy to run your mouth about every other thing on this thread, so dont be shy now.

What, you mean correcting you on your made up rules?

Im quite good at that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it means when they shoot.

quote]

Prove it.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:What, you mean correcting you on your made up rules?

Im quite good at that.

Right...didnt think so.

If you have nothing more to add, you will not be needed on this thread any longer. You may go.