Now whether you think it for fluff, paint, or general badassery, what do you think is the best SM legion. This can be Pre or Post heresy, whichever you like

Any son the Emperor doesn't want to talk about is badassed in my book.

So how does the II legion get two votes, but the XI only get 1? What heresy is this?

Pre-heresy death guard were the best IMO. They were hardy warriors who didn't lower themselves to using transport tanks. They knew the killing power of the bolter, and they knew it well.

Being able to use their bolters as pistols, using them in close combat, that is what a real warrior can do.

They didn't even need the flashy colors that the other chapters had. Unpainted except for green on the edges... wonderful.

And of course, Mortarion, the Primarch who didn't need any corruption by Chaos. His confidence great enough that he would risk his life to prove he was better than the Emperor.

The Death Guard are by far my favorite and the best legion.

Have you read Galaxy in Flames? Totally changed my opinion of them, they're now in the top 5 most favorite

Iron Within, Iron Without.

Alpha Legion, rebelling in the belief that they know what the Emperor wants better than he does, pure class

[Censored by Inquisition- the Legion you voted for does not exist] is the best. Fighting for the Emperor against the Emperor.

The first, the best, the Dark Angels! For the Lion!

I love the Arthurian-inspired fluff, the colors, the Deathwing and the Ravenwing. They never surrender, they never fall back and they never forget. They where my first army and still my favorite.

So repent! for tomorrow you die!

For Sanguinius, Lorgar and Dorn!

I voted Sons of Horus because i thought we were voting the BEST legion. Not the ones we like, but in all fairness my favourites are probably luna wolves due to first horus heresy books or space wolves cause they kick gak

The black legion. Because they are the only real true legion still left. Everything else is now broken up into small chapters or warring chaos warbands.

Eldenfirefly wrote:The black legion. Because they are the only real true legion still left. Everything else is now broken up into small chapters or warring chaos warbands.

The Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Space Wolves would like a word.

Durza wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:The black legion. Because they are the only real true legion still left. Everything else is now broken up into small chapters or warring chaos warbands.

The Alpha Legion, Word Bearers and Space Wolves would like a word.

I'm pretty sure that the Space Wolves are smaller than they used to be, though they are a fair chunk larger than Codex standard. Iron Warriors are also relatively unified (better than the World Eaters at least).

Black Templars probably should get a shout out, since they're basically an Imperial Fist legion that's keeping on with the Great Crusade.

pre-heresy Death Guard or Imperial Fists, they're arguably the two most durable legions.

I like the Emperors Children.

Before the Heresy,they where so cool. And if I was Fulgrim I would have had the same idea. And the fall into choas was pretty well done,it came from such a human desire,to be perfect. It had an almost Shakespearian feeling to it.

Ultramarines for sure.
Apart for being the Legion that conquer worlds with fewest casualties and aggression they had the most marines ( 250.000 ). And they helped save the Imperium after the Heresy.

Eldenfirefly wrote:The black legion. Because they are the only real true legion still left. Everything else is now broken up into small chapters or warring chaos warbands.

To be fair, most of the chaos legions are still the same as before, still organized into bands/chapters, but no legion leader to hold them together

Nothing more badass than a suit of armor with pink trim-it says "we don't care what anyone else thinks-we're REAL men." Emperor's children win for me.

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines for sure.
Apart for being the Legion that conquer worlds with fewest casualties and aggression they had the most marines ( 250.000 ). And they helped save the Imperium after the Heresy.

Yes, by being conveniently absent during it.

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines for sure.
Apart for being the Legion that conquer worlds with fewest casualties and aggression they had the most marines ( 250.000 ). And they helped save the Imperium after the Heresy.

Yes, by being conveniently absent during it.

It was not their fault that operated at the other side of the galaxy at that time. They even listened to Horus and went to destroy an Ork Empire.
When they finished that, they realized something was wrong and by then it was to late.

Can you blaim San Francisco armed forces not being able to defend, say, New York when it was attacked?

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines for sure.
Apart for being the Legion that conquer worlds with fewest casualties and aggression they had the most marines ( 250.000 ). And they helped save the Imperium after the Heresy.

Yes, by being conveniently absent during it.

It was not their fault that operated at the other side of the galaxy at that time. They even listened to Horus and went to destroy an Ork Empire.
When they finished that, they realized something was wrong and by then it was to late.

Can you blaim San Francisco armed forces not being able to defend, say, New York when it was attacked?

Well we can but it'd illogical. As far as best legion, I'm not a fan of the smurfs but you have to hand it to em for their successes as well as them getting enough respect to make the new rules for the chapters, etc.

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines for sure.
Apart for being the Legion that conquer worlds with fewest casualties and aggression they had the most marines ( 250.000 ). And they helped save the Imperium after the Heresy.

Yes, by being conveniently absent during it.

It was not their fault that operated at the other side of the galaxy at that time. They even listened to Horus and went to destroy an Ork Empire.
When they finished that, they realized something was wrong and by then it was to late.

Can you blaim San Francisco armed forces not being able to defend, say, New York when it was attacked?

I can if defending New York is that force's main and most important task, murdering Europeans for the crime of not being American apart, and they decided to send their entire force to the other side of the continent on a wild goose chase instead of dividing the largest armed force in the country to do two things at once.

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines for sure.
Apart for being the Legion that conquer worlds with fewest casualties and aggression they had the most marines ( 250.000 ). And they helped save the Imperium after the Heresy.

Yes, by being conveniently absent during it.

It was not their fault that operated at the other side of the galaxy at that time. They even listened to Horus and went to destroy an Ork Empire.
When they finished that, they realized something was wrong and by then it was to late.

Can you blaim San Francisco armed forces not being able to defend, say, New York when it was attacked?

I can if defending New York is that force's main and most important task, murdering Europeans for the crime of not being American apart, and they decided to send their entire force to the other side of the continent on a wild goose chase instead of dividing the largest armed force in the country to do two things at once.

The smurfs arent the only group of marines so how can you blame them for doing their job? Their most important job is to follow their orders given not assume that Horus would go nuts. That sounds more like alpha or the batman squad to be that paranoid.

They were the largest legion, and they all travelled together to face the Orks? The Iron Warriors on the other hand, were split into pieces because no one else understood siege warfare for some reason, the Dark Angels split themselves in half after their first major battle because the Lion threw a hissy fit, and most other legions have a few examples of companies being sent out on their own (like the Wolf Lord in one of the short stories).

What kind of threat could possibly have warranted the entire legion?

Durza wrote:They were the largest legion, and they all travelled together to face the Orks? The Iron Warriors on the other hand, were split into pieces because no one else understood siege warfare for some reason, the Dark Angels split themselves in half after their first major battle because the Lion threw a hissy fit, and most other legions have a few examples of companies being sent out on their own (like the Wolf Lord in one of the short stories).

What kind of threat could possibly have warranted the entire legion?

Then blame the command not the men following orders. It is also plausible that sending the largest away is a tactics choice. I mean Horus before being outed did make choices to weaken the imperium abusing his authority.

1. Nightlords
2. Alpha Legion
3. Raven Guard
4. Imperial Fist successors (I really don't like the IF themselves)
5. Pre-Heresy World Eaters

Brother Coa wrote:

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines for sure.
Apart for being the Legion that conquer worlds with fewest casualties and aggression they had the most marines ( 250.000 ). And they helped save the Imperium after the Heresy.

Yes, by being conveniently absent during it.

It was not their fault that operated at the other side of the galaxy at that time. They even listened to Horus and went to destroy an Ork Empire.
When they finished that, they realized something was wrong and by then it was to late.

Can you blaim San Francisco armed forces not being able to defend, say, New York when it was attacked?

Draigo wrote:

Durza wrote:They were the largest legion, and they all travelled together to face the Orks? The Iron Warriors on the other hand, were split into pieces because no one else understood siege warfare for some reason, the Dark Angels split themselves in half after their first major battle because the Lion threw a hissy fit, and most other legions have a few examples of companies being sent out on their own (like the Wolf Lord in one of the short stories).

What kind of threat could possibly have warranted the entire legion?

Then blame the command not the men following orders. It is also plausible that sending the largest away is a tactics choice. I mean Horus before being outed did make choices to weaken the imperium abusing his authority.

Undoubtedly it was Horus' plan, but Guilliman fell right into it. And of course, since Guilliman was Horus' spiritual liege, he shouldn't have been following Horus' orders anyway *trollface*

Durza wrote:
Undoubtedly it was Horus' plan, but Guilliman fell right into it. And of course, since Guilliman was Horus' spiritual liege, he shouldn't have been following Horus' orders anyway *trollface*

Because Horus was warmaster appointed by the Emepror and Gulilman must listen to his every command
He didn't know then that Horus has fallen, so he carry out his order just what his father expected of him.
Problem?

LeetBix wrote:4. Imperial Fist successors (I really don't like the IF themselves)

I agree. I love the Templars and the Soul Drinkers, but hate the IF and CF

Durza wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines for sure.
Apart for being the Legion that conquer worlds with fewest casualties and aggression they had the most marines ( 250.000 ). And they helped save the Imperium after the Heresy.

Yes, by being conveniently absent during it.

What kind of threat could possibly have warranted the entire legion?

They weren't conveniently absent. They just happened to be based on opposite side of the galaxy as Earth. Nobody was further from Earth by default than the Ultramarines. Horus then used the fact that he knew Guilliman would follow his orders to make sure the Ultramarines, the legion he knew was the strongest and most dangerous to his plans, were as far away as possible so he made up an assignment that would require the whole legion and gave it to the Ultramarines. And he sent the second largest legion to try and take them by surprise. But the Ultramarines managed to both defeat the Word Bearers, and remain the largest and strongest of legions. That's pretty bad ass. I mean, I've been an Ultramarines players since long before the Horus Heresy was anything more than a few paragraphs long, but hey, the truth is what it is.

You can hate the Ultramarines for whatever silly reasons your brain has concocted. Because you don't like the 5th Edition Codex, or Matt Ward, or who knows whatever nonsense you've cooked up. But the facts remain the same. They were the most successful legion before the Heresy, they were the most successful after it, and they've been the most successful Chapter since the Second Founding. Plus, their primarch wrote the book on being a Space Marine, literally. The book described as being like a mix of Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, and every other military genius for 30,000 years. How do we know all of this? Because Rick Priestley, the creator of 40K, told us so, twenty years ago almost, long before Matt Ward painted his first miniature.

Besides, their helmets were absolutely awesome looking:
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/4/3/25784_sm-Pre-heresy,%20True-scale,%20Ultramarines.jpg

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110323192921/warhammer40k/images/d/df/Berranus_Tactical_Squad.jpg

Personally, I kinda like the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion, but I never played Chaos on the tabletop.

I really never got why so many people hate the UM. They're a bit mary sue, but so is the =I= and people like them

TheAngrySquig wrote:I really never got why so many people hate the UM. They're a bit mary sue, but so is the =I= and people like them

I have seen reason like: because they are blue or because they are poster boys.
But most people hate them because of Matt Ward calim that they are second t oteh Emperor himself adn that ALL chapters want to be liek them.
Also "Spiritual League" destroyed Guliman's image forever

Yeah Ward done goofed on the UM, but their not that bad. I'm sure people will get over it soon enough

In my opinion, the Ultramarines have potential to be awesome. Overly excited fanboys like Matt Ward inadvertently messed 'em up, but they can be fixed. All they need is an author who can balance the UM's badassery with the fact that they, and the Imperium as a whole, is hopeless.

On topic, I voted for the Death Guard, Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons. All have great backgrounds and are badass.

I think that UM are quite solid and a really nice idea. Some hope in the shitpit universe of 40k. I also don't think this should turn in to another UM love/hate thread though, so I'm gonna go ahead and ask: Why no love for the White Scars? They are on the bottom in my primarchs thread as well and I actually really like them

TheAngrySquig wrote:I really never got why so many people hate the UM. They're a bit mary sue, but so is the =I= and people like them

It's nerd rage hate transference.

Years ago, in the long long ago of 40K, they were just called "boring". They were boring because their list wasn't rife with fancy special units and overpowered special characters.

Then people hated them because Games Workshop chose to make the Ultramarines their default chapter. This was done for a few reasons. There was a "Big Four" in 40K. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Out of those four, the Ultramarines were the only ones that didn't need any additional explanation. If you know what a Marine is in the real world, then you can imagine them 38,000 years in the future, and the Ultramarines look kinda like what you'd expect. No need to explain why they look like furry space vikings with fangs. No need to explain why they wear hoodie bathrobes and act emo. No need to explain why they have fangs and drink blood. The Ultramarines are just big dudes in big armor with big guns. However, because the Ultramarines were "boring", and the more vocal 40K players are, as a general rule, a rather unmanly and nerdy sort prone to a sort of jealousy when their favorite plastic toy soldiers aren't given their due attention, the hate began to brew against the blue ones.

The 5th Edition didn't really help. Matt Ward took a bunch of stories about the Ultramarines that already existed, wrote a couple new ones (none of which are any sillier than those written for other factions), and then finally explained why Rick Priestley had called the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (Back Cover, Codex: Ultramarines, 1995). The whole "spiritual liege" actually makes sense, when you realize it refers to the Codex Chapters descended from the Ultramarines. More than sixty percent of Space Marine chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Either directly, as is the case with the 250 or so Second Founding Ultra successors, or because they were made using the Ultramarines gene seed because it is the least flawed, and the most often used when creating new chapters. All of those chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, and the closest thing they have to a primarch would be Guilliman, and if they are going to look to their heritage and take pride in the actions of Space Marines of the past, then the Ultramarines are the ones they are closest akin to. In the case of the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines actually were Ultramarines, so it makes perfect sense that they might consider themselves Ultramarines in all but name.

The whole line about "they can never be Ultramarines" is a bit over the top and referred to the other Codex Chapters descended from other than Ultramarines stock. However, the "spiritual liege" portion only ever applied to the Codex Chapters directly descended from the Ultramarines. This part gets lost in the nerd raging. It never referred to the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. It merely said that those chapters recognize the wisdom and value of the Codex Astartes and admire Guilliman's work. But, again, when you have misdirected nerd rage like that which typically is reserved for the Ultramarines, facts are irrelevant.

This UM conversation isn't going to go away is it?

Well, given the fact that there's really no way to argue with what I wrote, it should. Will it? Probably not.

Every chapter has its haters and then there are those that hate Marines in general soo ya. Most the hate tends to be when new codexes come out though. Only the UM seem to keep it. I think it also has to do with the number of new players starting with the smurf book. Which leads to an elitist look by some vets on the "new" guy who doesn't know the rules.

LoneLictor wrote:In my opinion, the Ultramarines have potential to be awesome. Overly excited fanboys like Matt Ward inadvertently messed 'em up, but they can be fixed. All they need is an author who can balance the UM's badassery with the fact that they, and the Imperium as a whole, is hopeless.

We need TITUS!!!

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Well, given the fact that there's really no way to argue with what I wrote, it should. Will it? Probably not.

+1 to that, you made a solid argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:In my opinion, the Ultramarines have potential to be awesome. Overly excited fanboys like Matt Ward inadvertently messed 'em up, but they can be fixed. All they need is an author who can balance the UM's badassery with the fact that they, and the Imperium as a whole, is hopeless.

We need TITUS!!!

I, for one, would love if Titus was an HQ in the next SM codex. Let the begin I know, but he's really a pretty cool guy

Alpha Legion for the fluff. Hopefully they will be addressed in the new CSM codex due in 2020

My friend has an AL army, really good paintjob

Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Thousand Sons. None cooler

I feel like TS got a serious downgrade post heresy. They're now just dust in the wind compared to the preheresy ones


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm sorry I just had to make the joke, it was just sitting there

Night Lords take my vote,

I find some humor in the lack of sw votes and theyre all over the tournament scene..

I doubt that the GK would be much different if I made knelt these for =I=. People play good armies, doesn't necessarily mean they play their favorite. Me I play for the fluff, so I really don't mind being uncompetitive. In tourneys people are going to play to win, so you can expect to see a lot of SW, GK, BA and all that gak. It's not like it really matters that much though, does it?

Just an observation I found humerous.. I have played the same armies forever(granted new models and dexes change lists). I mean now I dont have a daemonhunter list with Stern etc. Had to get new plastics. Glad my old wulfens can still be used for somthing though.

It is a rather funny observation, just giving the logic behind it

Draigo wrote:I find some humor in the lack of sw votes and theyre all over the tournament scene..

Most people playing them in the tournament scene aren't playing them for their background, hell many, if not most, are just taking their existing armies from other books and using the SW rules

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:I really never got why so many people hate the UM. They're a bit mary sue, but so is the =I= and people like them

It's nerd rage hate transference.

Years ago, in the long long ago of 40K, they were just called "boring". They were boring because their list wasn't rife with fancy special units and overpowered special characters.

Then people hated them because Games Workshop chose to make the Ultramarines their default chapter. This was done for a few reasons. There was a "Big Four" in 40K. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Out of those four, the Ultramarines were the only ones that didn't need any additional explanation. If you know what a Marine is in the real world, then you can imagine them 38,000 years in the future, and the Ultramarines look kinda like what you'd expect. No need to explain why they look like furry space vikings with fangs. No need to explain why they wear hoodie bathrobes and act emo. No need to explain why they have fangs and drink blood. The Ultramarines are just big dudes in big armor with big guns. However, because the Ultramarines were "boring", and the more vocal 40K players are, as a general rule, a rather unmanly and nerdy sort prone to a sort of jealousy when their favorite plastic toy soldiers aren't given their due attention, the hate began to brew against the blue ones.

The 5th Edition didn't really help. Matt Ward took a bunch of stories about the Ultramarines that already existed, wrote a couple new ones (none of which are any sillier than those written for other factions), and then finally explained why Rick Priestley had called the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (Back Cover, Codex: Ultramarines, 1995). The whole "spiritual liege" actually makes sense, when you realize it refers to the Codex Chapters descended from the Ultramarines. More than sixty percent of Space Marine chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Either directly, as is the case with the 250 or so Second Founding Ultra successors, or because they were made using the Ultramarines gene seed because it is the least flawed, and the most often used when creating new chapters. All of those chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, and the closest thing they have to a primarch would be Guilliman, and if they are going to look to their heritage and take pride in the actions of Space Marines of the past, then the Ultramarines are the ones they are closest akin to. In the case of the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines actually were Ultramarines, so it makes perfect sense that they might consider themselves Ultramarines in all but name.

The whole line about "they can never be Ultramarines" is a bit over the top and referred to the other Codex Chapters descended from other than Ultramarines stock. However, the "spiritual liege" portion only ever applied to the Codex Chapters directly descended from the Ultramarines. This part gets lost in the nerd raging. It never referred to the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. It merely said that those chapters recognize the wisdom and value of the Codex Astartes and admire Guilliman's work. But, again, when you have misdirected nerd rage like that which typically is reserved for the Ultramarines, facts are irrelevant.

Indeed. You summarized that very well.

I respectfully disagree with Veteran Sergeant. The main reason why people dislike the Ultramarines is because their background/fluff is over the top and idiotic and being boring is only a secondary reason why some people dislike them (I personally don't think they're boring). Also, disliking the Ultramarines does not make you an unmanly neckbeard.

However, I'm not really in the mood for an argument and since this issue is entirely opinion based, we'll never convince each other.

Ultramarines. It's in the name.

The thing about the Ultramarines is, they have about equal numbers of fanboyz and haters. Both sides are equally fanatical and nobody can ever really win. I also wouldn't say that their fluff is boring, a bit OTT, but not boring

I'm a big fan of the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and pre-heresy 1k Sons.

Runners up would be the Dark Angels and White Scars.

Interestingly, while I once really liked the Space Wolves reading the Heresy books dropped them to the absolute bottom of my list.

Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Marines don't need cartoony weaknesses. A lot of the people who like playing "Codex" chapters like them very specifically because they don't have any wacky traits. Most of the chapters that have been fleshed out by Games Workshop don't really have any craziness to them. And the universe needs a benchmark to evaluate by, no? If the Ultramarines were screwy too, it would sorta bring down the whole notion of Space Marines as written in the canon. Somebody among the Space Marine chapters need to be the stalwart, stoic, superhuman soldiers (wee! alliteration) that the stories tells us the Space Marines are. The Ultramarines being "normal" is exactly what makes the other chapters being crazy, emo, vampiric, furry, bionic, muderous, etc interesting.

They don't need a cartoony weakness, true; but they need something. Right now they are perfect. There's no flaw, no potential conflict, no nothing. Currently, the Ultramarines are about as engaging as a PowerPoint presentation. They're the middle management of the Adeptus Astartes. Give them a twist that turns their strength into a weakness, and then you'll be cooking with gas.

Brother Coa wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:In my opinion, the Ultramarines have potential to be awesome. Overly excited fanboys like Matt Ward inadvertently messed 'em up, but they can be fixed. All they need is an author who can balance the UM's badassery with the fact that they, and the Imperium as a whole, is hopeless.

We need TITUS!!!

Ok. Well said Coa. He is the only reason i like the ultramarines. through one guy who is pretty much just a luna wolf in blue armour. Leandros is the reason i hate the ultramarines, as EVERY SINGLE FETHING ULTRAMARINE IS LIKE THAT. They have basically become the emperors children, thinking themselves perfect compared to other legions. All this gathered from the pile of fluff gak that is the 5th edition SM codex... It really destroyed the look of the SM IMHO. It seems that GW are trying their hardest to get little children to join the hobby, instead of making it a sophisticated game, they write the fluff in the form of fanfiction. the further Games Workshop proceeds to become more popular, the more i am beginning to dislike it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daveNYC wrote:Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Wolves do have a weakness.......



















ALE.

The Son Of Russ wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Wolves do have a weakness.......

ALE.

Which actually makes them even worse characters, since they don't even have the downside of having to live joyless monastic lives. If Space Marines are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for teenage boys, then the Space Wolves are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for Space Marines.

daveNYC wrote:

The Son Of Russ wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Wolves do have a weakness.......

ALE.

Which actually makes them even worse characters, since they don't even have the downside of having to live joyless monastic lives. If Space Marines are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for teenage boys, then the Space Wolves are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for Space Marines.

Woah dude calm down it was a joke :S it seems as though i have struck a cord... apologies...

The wolves have weaknesses, like the fact that every once in a while a recruit turns into a fething WEREWOLF!!!!!

The Son Of Russ wrote:

daveNYC wrote:

The Son Of Russ wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Problem with both the Space Wolves and Ultramarines is that they don't have any weaknesses. At least the BT are crazy, the DA are shifty, and the BA are vampires. There should be something about the Ultras being ultra-anal about sticking to the Codex and being burned by it, and the Wolves would benefit from taking a hit for being semi-literate barbarians.

Space Wolves do have a weakness.......

ALE.

Which actually makes them even worse characters, since they don't even have the downside of having to live joyless monastic lives. If Space Marines are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for teenage boys, then the Space Wolves are escapist wish-fulfillment fantasy for Space Marines.

Woah dude calm down it was a joke :S it seems as though i have struck a cord... apologies...

No worries. Sorry if I came back a little harsh. It's just that the Wolves and the Ultras (and the GK, now that I mention it) all really annoy me. Most of the various 40k factions are well(ish) written and have strenghts and weaknesses. Some of them even go so far as to have genuine flaws and character. That's what makes the super awesome mary-sue snowflake types even more painful to look at.

The GK are so powerful and uncorruptable and double awesomesauce, in fact, you never even get the idea that they're even worried about being corrupted (it mentions it, but that's just a one off). Great. Who cares. How about saying some of them fell, and are the evil stuck under Mount Whatsis on Titan. It gives the Purifiers a reason to exist, and gives the GK a secret to hide and a tragic flaw that their incorruptible nature is a sham.

The Ultras are the best of the best of the best. Everyone looks up to them. Everyone wants to be them. Heck, they even come with a multi-thousand page manual on the perfect way to wage war. How about setting them up as both paragons of Marineness, and examples of how the hidebound and traditional nature of the Imperium (as reflected by the Ultra's use of the Codex) will eventually lead to distruction. The Inquisition has radicals and puritans, why not allow similar conflict between Ultramarine commanders based on following the letter or the spirit of the Codex.

Thanks to the HH fluff and the corrent codex fluff and crunch, the Space Wolves are now somehow a bunch of rowdy space vikings, whose rowdyness is simply a cover for being super sneaky and thoughtful, but at the same time they actually do party hard and enjoy themselves, so it isn't exactly all an act. It's just that they're better Marines when they're hungover or something. Add in the 'Executioner Legion' rumors, Russ' hatred of all things psyker combined with his (in ATS) psyker yell power, the Rune Priests being primitive screwheads who somehow have the Wolf of the Wolf Wolf power combined with great psychic defenses... the list goes on, but currently the Wolves are more psychic than the Eldar, more shooty than the Tau, and more choppy than Khorne Bezerkers. All while being heros of the Imperium, all around nice guys, and God only knows what else. Something, somewhere has to give. If their Rune Priests use traditional Fenrisian techniques, then make them weak on offense and good on defense. If the Wolves are crazy CC types, then do something about Longfangs. If they're hard partying space vikings, then have them get rolled by someone who sent them a few kegs of beer and then attacked when they were hung over.

Right. I feel a bit better now.

I agree, Phil Kelly should have put in something like this on all the non-vehicle units

Hungover- Roll a d6 before you charge or shoot, on a roll of 1, reduce WS and BS by 1 for the rest of that turn

They are heavily flawed. Their gene seed is slightly unstable, They are extremely hated by the inquisition and many different chapters, and above all they strictly do not follow the codex, as they think its a disgrace. Considering the fact that they have a ridiculously strong sense of honour that even when CSM are treated dishonourably by ally chapters fighting with them, THEY WILL TURN ON THEM. They have also been attacked by the inquisition atleast 3 times, all of them failing due to the fang. The third strongest stronghold known to man. Also dont forget the inquisition is on the verge of counting them as chaos... They do have their flaws bud. Now tell me what the ultramarines have to compare to that?

Ultramarines. Because that is what games workshop says.

The Ultramarines have the flaw that Leandros is a massive douche-canoe

Pre-Heresy Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and then Salamanders for my top three

Almost all of them were cooler PH, except for the Word Bearers.

Edit: Just realized this was my Thousandth post, and I could not be happier then using it to insult the WB. Internet marshmellows to all

lol at douche canoe haha

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My marshmellows pic isn't working, so just use your imagination, sorry

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Space Marines don't need cartoony weaknesses. A lot of the people who like playing "Codex" chapters like them very specifically because they don't have any wacky traits. Most of the chapters that have been fleshed out by Games Workshop don't really have any craziness to them. And the universe needs a benchmark to evaluate by, no? If the Ultramarines were screwy too, it would sorta bring down the whole notion of Space Marines as written in the canon. Somebody among the Space Marine chapters need to be the stalwart, stoic, superhuman soldiers (wee! alliteration) that the stories tells us the Space Marines are. The Ultramarines being "normal" is exactly what makes the other chapters being crazy, emo, vampiric, furry, bionic, muderous, etc interesting.

I agree. I said they weren't boring and I don't think they should have weird variations. What I said was that their background is over the top and stupid. Example: Marneus Calgar holding back an entire Ork Waagh! for a day and night.

I actually quite like that, it shows that SM are what the legends say they are, super-soldiers

My favorite would be the Thousand Sons, but ability-wise, Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus would be the greatest legion, with Blood Angels and Ultramarines vying for second place.

The main issue I have with the UM is that they're nowhere as near as good as the BA. Even in their forte, tactics, they turn over control to the BA

daveNYC wrote:The Ultras are the best of the best of the best. Everyone looks up to them. Everyone wants to be them. Heck, they even come with a multi-thousand page manual on the perfect way to wage war. How about setting them up as both paragons of Marineness, and examples of how the hidebound and traditional nature of the Imperium (as reflected by the Ultra's use of the Codex) will eventually lead to distruction. The Inquisition has radicals and puritans, why not allow similar conflict between Ultramarine commanders based on following the letter or the spirit of the Codex.

The problem is, that's not how the Codex Astartes works. It's not an If A, then B instruction manual for war like some of the bad fiction and less discerning players make it out to be. It's a thousands upon thousands page tome of examples and battles which gives a Space Marine commander the ability to use the experiences of countless battles to help him make tactical and strategic decisions. A Space Marine steeped in the knowledge of the Codex is going to a master of war, able to make sound, effective decisions on the fly, and dictate the pace and terms of battle most of the time. The Codex Astartes is exactly why the Space Marines are as successful as they are, not something they are successful in spite of. Surely it's "stepped" in the manner where there are basic squad and fireteam tactics that all Marines learn as Scouts, then advanced maneuvers and such for full fledged Marines, then even more advanced tactical and some low level strategic stuff for Sergeants, and onwards. The kinds of silliness McNeill wrote about in the Uriel Ventris series where a commander gets punished for "acting outside the Codex" is garbage. Very little would be outside the scope of the Codex since it apparently has "hundreds of pages" on every possible combat situation. Every example we've ever had shows that there's almost no rigidity in the Codex at all. Even when it comes to heraldry, the Ultramarines are relatively flexible (check Insignum Astartes for countless examples of markings variations). The only point that seems to be set in stone is the size of chapters at ten infantry companies, and that was purposeful to prevent chapter masters from ever wielding as much power as the Primarchs did with their legions.

I mean, I can see some of your point. The Ultramarines have no obvious flaws which make them, superficially seem like poorly written characters. But that's mostly because Space Marines in general have no obvious flaws. Space Marines are a large organization, and the Ultramarines are a group of people, not an individual character. Painting them all with one brush (da dum, chshhh) would be bad writing too. I'm sure they're a haughty, arrogant bunch, and I imagine from time to time this gets them in trouble. But their leaders also have decades, if not centuries, of battle experience, as well as the lessons of the Codex Astartes to draw on, and aren't going to commit forces foolishly very often. I mean, look at, say the real world US and British Royal Marines. It isn't like these forces have some kind of fatal or serious flaws to them. They might not be perfect, and there might be missteps and bad apples from time to time, but it isn't like you can paint an individual battalion with a broad brush and say "These guys are this way." Honestly, if you paint the Ultramarines as having some kind of glaring flaw, it detracts from what they are supposed to be. I mean, what's the glaring flaw of the Imperial Fists? Or the White Scars? Or the Iron Hands? I mean, they're just depicted as normal Space Marines too, without any serious gene seed flaws or dark pasts. Heck, the Imperial Fists are heralded as being "second only to the Ultramarines", which seems a rather lofty position as well. If every Space Marine chapter filled some kind of generic, cliche, niche, the universe would seem that much sillier. We already have Vampireymarines, Emorines, Fanatical Die-in-droves-marines, Furry Marines, Butchermarines, Bikemarines, Mongolrines, Poemarines, Burnymarines, Tragicmarines, Murderines, and even, thanks to 1d4chan, Angry Marines. There have to be at least a few chapters of Normalrines.

I do agree with the Space Wolves somewhat. but mostly because I think their fluff is silly at some times and contradictory to the canon in others (their recruiting practices make little sense since the implants have to start by 10-12 years old), and their rules have never been very well balanced compared to the other Space Marine armies.


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LoneLictor wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Space Marines don't need cartoony weaknesses. A lot of the people who like playing "Codex" chapters like them very specifically because they don't have any wacky traits. Most of the chapters that have been fleshed out by Games Workshop don't really have any craziness to them. And the universe needs a benchmark to evaluate by, no? If the Ultramarines were screwy too, it would sorta bring down the whole notion of Space Marines as written in the canon. Somebody among the Space Marine chapters need to be the stalwart, stoic, superhuman soldiers (wee! alliteration) that the stories tells us the Space Marines are. The Ultramarines being "normal" is exactly what makes the other chapters being crazy, emo, vampiric, furry, bionic, muderous, etc interesting.

I agree. I said they weren't boring and I don't think they should have weird variations. What I said was that their background is over the top and stupid. Example: Marneus Calgar holding back an entire Ork Waagh! for a day and night.

Mephiston. Draigo. Enough said. However, nearly every faction has a special character who did something silly and over the top. Especially the Space Marine factions. Ulrik the Slayer killed several World Eaters with his bare hands.

However:

While the enemy was hammering at the Marines' defensive positions, Sgt. Basilone, in charge of 2 sections of heavy machine guns, fought valiantly to check the savage and determined assault. In a fierce frontal attack with the Japanese blasting his guns with grenades and mortar fire, one of Sgt. Basilone's sections, with its guncrews, was put out of action, leaving only 2 men able to carry on. Moving an extra gun into position, he placed it in action, then, under continual fire, repaired another and personally manned it, gallantly holding his line until replacements arrived. A little later, with ammunition critically low and the supply lines cut off, Sgt. Basilone, at great risk of his life and in the face of continued enemy attack, battled his way through hostile lines with urgently needed shells for his gunners, thereby contributing in large measure to the virtual annihilation of a Japanese regiment

.
John Basilone was one dude, unarmored and and possessed only of the strength, will, and determination of a normal man, and he held off an large Japanese unit with only two other men, a .30 caliber machinegun, and eventually a .45 pistol and a machete. One might hope that, given a defensible position like Basilone had, that a superhuman warrior, clad in ceramite power armor, and with centuries of combat experience, might be able to do something similar. In fact, in a lot of ways, Calgar's story sounds much like Basilone's.

No Calgar's stand is directly from when the Spartans fought at the pass, just Calgar is one dude because he is awesome

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LoneLictor wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Space Marines don't need cartoony weaknesses. A lot of the people who like playing "Codex" chapters like them very specifically because they don't have any wacky traits. Most of the chapters that have been fleshed out by Games Workshop don't really have any craziness to them. And the universe needs a benchmark to evaluate by, no? If the Ultramarines were screwy too, it would sorta bring down the whole notion of Space Marines as written in the canon. Somebody among the Space Marine chapters need to be the stalwart, stoic, superhuman soldiers (wee! alliteration) that the stories tells us the Space Marines are. The Ultramarines being "normal" is exactly what makes the other chapters being crazy, emo, vampiric, furry, bionic, muderous, etc interesting.

I agree. I said they weren't boring and I don't think they should have weird variations. What I said was that their background is over the top and stupid. Example: Marneus Calgar holding back an entire Ork Waagh! for a day and night.

Mephiston. Draigo. Enough said.

Mephiton, Draigo, Tigerius, Calgar, Sanguinor, Thawn(who actually a necron), Creed(who also might be a necron), Logan, and most of the "hero" of heroes types are insanely luck or have the fluff armor of gods. But when theyre supposed to stand out in a groups like IG and SM they have to be truly epic.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They weren't conveniently absent. They just happened to be based on opposite side of the galaxy as Earth. Nobody was further from Earth by default than the Ultramarines. Horus then used the fact that he knew Guilliman would follow his orders to make sure the Ultramarines, the legion he knew was the strongest and most dangerous to his plans, were as far away as possible so he made up an assignment that would require the whole legion and gave it to the Ultramarines. And he sent the second largest legion to try and take them by surprise. But the Ultramarines managed to both defeat the Word Bearers, and remain the largest and strongest of legions. That's pretty bad ass. I mean, I've been an Ultramarines players since long before the Horus Heresy was anything more than a few paragraphs long, but hey, the truth is what it is.

You can hate the Ultramarines for whatever silly reasons your brain has concocted. Because you don't like the 5th Edition Codex, or Matt Ward, or who knows whatever nonsense you've cooked up. But the facts remain the same. They were the most successful legion before the Heresy, they were the most successful after it, and they've been the most successful Chapter since the Second Founding. Plus, their primarch wrote the book on being a Space Marine, literally. The book described as being like a mix of Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, and every other military genius for 30,000 years. How do we know all of this? Because Rick Priestley, the creator of 40K, told us so, twenty years ago almost, long before Matt Ward painted his first miniature.

well I was going to post something, but VS already said it (probably better too).

Calgar, Guilliman, Sicarius, and Orar FTW!

Thousands Sons man, their story is rather tragic and basically their whole goal is to gain knowledge and trolling Space Wolves. I feel that them as a chapter was betrayed by the Imperium.

Really they sided with their true betrayer. It's funny that they seek knowledge, but know so little of their past

I still like some of the second founding chapters better.. seems a lot of the legions only had a few named characters worth mentioning anyway otherwise it was sm 1 2 3 etc.

Second founding helped some, but hurt others. The BA didn't need a second founding, none of the successors are near as cool. But the Fists needed a massive attitude makeover

Yes well I like the gk and they cam at the end of HH/second founding. I kinda dig deathwatch too. Get a little bit of flavor from each.

Gk weren't really second founding though, they just happened to be founded at the same time as it happened

Thats why I said at the end of hh/second founding

TheAngrySquig wrote:Really they sided with their true betrayer. It's funny that they seek knowledge, but know so little of their past

That is true, but that's what makes them more interesting. Even though Horus sent the Space Wolves to burn Prospero, the Emperor did label Magnus as a heretic when he warned him of Horus' betrayal.

LoneLictor wrote:
You think the fandom doesn't hate them too? Haven't you heard the rule of Dakka? "As a thread progresses, the probability of a user mentioning Draigo/Ward equals 1." Nobody said Ultramarines were the only problem with the background.

I know fandom hates them too. But if everything is the problem, then the Ultramarines shouldn't be a problem. But you said you dislike them. But they are like every other faction. Thus you must be filled with constant loathing. Or, as I suspect, simply hypocrisy.

All Space Marines want to be Ultramarines. That's right, all. Even the Space Wolves, who don't view the Index Astartes as worthy of toilet paper.

Read my earlier post. That's misdirected nerd rage and not true. You need to actually read Codex: Space Marines, not 1d4chan.

Basilone died while defending it. And a single American soldier holding back a couple dozen Japanese Soldiers is extremely impressive, but a single Marine holding back an entire Waagh! (hundreds of Orks, tanks and a Warboss at the head) would be a lot more difficult.

He didn't die doing that. Basilone died on Iwo Jima during the initial beach assault. That Medal of Honor citation was from Guadalcanal. He did all that, and lived. And I think you need to look up how large that Japanese unit was. A regiment is a little more than "a couple dozen".

Draigo wrote:Thats why I said at the end of hh/second founding

Oh didn't see the "end of hh" bit, sorry

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:
You think the fandom doesn't hate them too? Haven't you heard the rule of Dakka? "As a thread progresses, the probability of a user mentioning Draigo/Ward equals 1." Nobody said Ultramarines were the only problem with the background.

I know fandom hates them too. But if everything is the problem, then the Ultramarines shouldn't be a problem. But you said you dislike them. But they are like every other faction. Thus you must be filled with constant loathing. Or, as I suspect, simply hypocrisy.

All Space Marines want to be Ultramarines. That's right, all. Even the Space Wolves, who don't view the Index Astartes as worthy of toilet paper.

Read my earlier post. That's misdirected nerd rage and not true. You need to actually read Codex: Space Marines, not 1d4chan.

The Space Wolves are called degenerates or something similar for not wanting to be Ultramarines and following their own primarch's teachings.

Iron Within, Iron Without

Durza wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:
You think the fandom doesn't hate them too? Haven't you heard the rule of Dakka? "As a thread progresses, the probability of a user mentioning Draigo/Ward equals 1." Nobody said Ultramarines were the only problem with the background.

I know fandom hates them too. But if everything is the problem, then the Ultramarines shouldn't be a problem. But you said you dislike them. But they are like every other faction. Thus you must be filled with constant loathing. Or, as I suspect, simply hypocrisy.

All Space Marines want to be Ultramarines. That's right, all. Even the Space Wolves, who don't view the Index Astartes as worthy of toilet paper.

Read my earlier post. That's misdirected nerd rage and not true. You need to actually read Codex: Space Marines, not 1d4chan.

The Space Wolves are called degenerates or something similar for not wanting to be Ultramarines and following their own primarch's teachings.

Oh those silly wolves

Durza wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:
You think the fandom doesn't hate them too? Haven't you heard the rule of Dakka? "As a thread progresses, the probability of a user mentioning Draigo/Ward equals 1." Nobody said Ultramarines were the only problem with the background.

I know fandom hates them too. But if everything is the problem, then the Ultramarines shouldn't be a problem. But you said you dislike them. But they are like every other faction. Thus you must be filled with constant loathing. Or, as I suspect, simply hypocrisy.

All Space Marines want to be Ultramarines. That's right, all. Even the Space Wolves, who don't view the Index Astartes as worthy of toilet paper.

Read my earlier post. That's misdirected nerd rage and not true. You need to actually read Codex: Space Marines, not 1d4chan.

The Space Wolves are called degenerates or something similar for not wanting to be Ultramarines and following their own primarch's teachings.

I'll defer back to what I said about reading the Codex.

They are called "aberrants" which means "Departing from an accepted standard", or "Deviating from the norm". Not really similar to being degenerates. Really, that's the worst it says about them. Calling them "aberrant", "stubborn", and "divergent" (from the Codex in the way they organize their forces) and says they play no role in the volume which is about the Ultramarines and those who follow their example. You're mixing your paragraphs. Yeah, the earlier part about how the other First Founding chapters and their successors can "never be Ultramarines" is a bit over the top, but Codex: Space Marines is a book about the Ultramarines, and the Utramarines are "the greatest of Space Marine chapters". You'd sort of expect a book about them and from their perspective is going to read a little biased towards them. However, it never says that any of these chapters want to be Ultramarines, only that they can't be. How else would the Ultramarines perceive the nature of the Blood Angels (who are a Codex adherent chapter, but are unfortunately cursed with a gene seed flaw that prevents them from doing so completely)? Awkward language for sure, but nobody has ever accused Games Workshop's authors of being master wordsmiths. Though it still hasn't been explained why it is okay for some Codex books to be self aggrandizing and for the Ultramarines one to not be okay doing the same thing.

Dark Angels!

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:
You think the fandom doesn't hate them too? Haven't you heard the rule of Dakka? "As a thread progresses, the probability of a user mentioning Draigo/Ward equals 1." Nobody said Ultramarines were the only problem with the background.

I know fandom hates them too. But if everything is the problem, then the Ultramarines shouldn't be a problem. But you said you dislike them. But they are like every other faction. Thus you must be filled with constant loathing. Or, as I suspect, simply hypocrisy.

Yer twisting my words. I never said the whole of 40k was like that or that I only dislike the Ultramarines. I miss the olden days of 4th and 3rd, when the background was great. Now I sound like a whiny old guy. Le sigh.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

All Space Marines want to be Ultramarines. That's right, all. Even the Space Wolves, who don't view the Index Astartes as worthy of toilet paper.

Read my earlier post. That's misdirected nerd rage and not true. You need to actually read Codex: Space Marines, not 1d4chan.

There is a quote that "All Space Marines want to be Ultramarines." The book says that. It contradicts the background and its ridiculous. But the book says that.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Basilone died while defending it. And a single American soldier holding back a couple dozen Japanese Soldiers is extremely impressive, but a single Marine holding back an entire Waagh! (hundreds of Orks, tanks and a Warboss at the head) would be a lot more difficult.

He didn't die doing that. Basilone died on Iwo Jima during the initial beach assault. That Medal of Honor citation was from Guadalcanal. He did all that, and lived. And I think you need to look up how large that Japanese unit was. A regiment is a little more than "a couple dozen".

Wikipedia says he was killed by shrapnel from a Japanese mortar during the conflict. And the conflict was short. He was never fighting the whole regiment at the same time; the conflict simply didn't last long enough for that to happen. However, holding off an entire Ork Waagh! for a night and the day would be a very, very, very, very long battle.

For anyone still bringing up Basilone, you have to jack it up to him being a space marine, so a day and a night is like a minute of his life and he was legitimately made to kill. He is also wearing Terminator armor, so most of the attacks can't do a damn thing

TheAngrySquig wrote:For anyone still bringing up Basilone, you have to jack it up to him being a space marine, so a day and a night is like a minute of his life and he was legitimately made to kill. He is also wearing Terminator armor, so most of the attacks can't do a damn thing

Basilone is not to Calgar as a portion of a Japanese Regiment is to en entire Ork Waagh! Orks have mega-armor and tanks and all sorts of crazy stuff.

The Orks also can't hit the broadside of a barn with any of those tanks that manage to stay together long enough to fire, much less a specific target. Mega Armor is a joke compared to Calgar's fists of fury and he is one of the greatest fighters in the Imperium, I think it's safe to say that he could hold out for just a day

TheAngrySquig wrote:The Orks also can't hit the broadside of a barn with any of those tanks that manage to stay together long enough to fire, much less a specific target. Mega Armor is a joke compared to Calgar's fists of fury and he is one of the greatest fighters in the Imperium, I think it's safe to say that he could hold out for just a day

That never wears a helmet. Only Heroe get away with that silliness..

Draigo wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:The Orks also can't hit the broadside of a barn with any of those tanks that manage to stay together long enough to fire, much less a specific target. Mega Armor is a joke compared to Calgar's fists of fury and he is one of the greatest fighters in the Imperium, I think it's safe to say that he could hold out for just a day

That never wears a helmet. Only Heroe get away with that silliness..

He doesn't need a helmet, the plot armor covers his head

Hence why I said heroes get away with it sheesh..

Oh, I really need to stop skimming posts

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Draigo wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:The Orks also can't hit the broadside of a barn with any of those tanks that manage to stay together long enough to fire, much less a specific target. Mega Armor is a joke compared to Calgar's fists of fury and he is one of the greatest fighters in the Imperium, I think it's safe to say that he could hold out for just a day

That never wears a helmet. Only Heroe get away with that silliness..

He doesn't need a helmet, the plot armor covers his head

EXACTLY! PRECISELY!

The only way he could hold off an entire Waagh! is plot armor!

Yeah I agree that its a wee bit OTT, but it's also really cool

LoneLictor wrote:Yer twisting my words. I never said the whole of 40k was like that or that I only dislike the Ultramarines. I miss the olden days of 4th and 3rd, when the background was great. Now I sound like a whiny old guy. Le sigh.

I'm not twisting your words, I was merely extrapolating with a little bit of hyperbole mixed in.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There is a quote that "All Space Marines want to be Ultramarines." The book says that. It contradicts the background and its ridiculous. But the book says that.

It doesn't. Or, if it does, somebody needs to cite a page number. Because I am looking at "The Page" that gets everyone all riled up, and it doesn't say anything like that.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Basilone died while defending it. And a single American soldier holding back a couple dozen Japanese Soldiers is extremely impressive, but a single Marine holding back an entire Waagh! (hundreds of Orks, tanks and a Warboss at the head) would be a lot more difficult.

He didn't die doing that. Basilone died on Iwo Jima during the initial beach assault. That Medal of Honor citation was from Guadalcanal. He did all that, and lived. And I think you need to look up how large that Japanese unit was. A regiment is a little more than "a couple dozen".

Wikipedia says he was killed by shrapnel from a Japanese mortar during the conflict. And the conflict was short. He was never fighting the whole regiment at the same time; the conflict simply didn't last long enough for that to happen. However, holding off an entire Ork Waagh! for a night and the day would be a very, very, very, very long battle.

You're reading the Wiki wrong. Trust me. I was a Marine for most of a decade. I can recall the details of Manilla John before I can remember my girlfriend's birthday. No, seriously. It's in October some time.

Anyway, yeah, the story of Calgar against the Waaaaagh! a little silly. But he's supposed to be a little larger than life, just like the rest of the universe's special characters.

And lonelictor, I'm guessing you like death guard because of your sig. How is holding out against a WAAAGH for just a day any more ridiculous then spreading a zombie-plauge across either dozens or hundreds of world, can't recall atm

do thunder warriors count? there the only (dunno if you could really call it a chapter) space marines to succesfully conquer earth, plus there primarch was the emperor.
if i had to pick an official chapter i would be stuck between sons of horus/luna wolves and space wolves.
sons/luna were the most powerfull chapter of there time, with the best primarch.
the space wolves are just plain badass. as for there "defect" the space wolf genetic defect is actually a benefit. sure it makes you look more and more feral, but do you know why that is? as space wolves become more and more exposed to chaos they look more feral, but they also become more resistant to it, like getting a tan. thats why the 13th have managed to stay alive and uncorrupted in the eye of terror since the HH
ultramarines defiantly arent as there the justin biebers of 40k. massively overhyped and homosexual.

I dont think Thunder Warriors really count, and Earth was a whole lot easier to conquer if the Emperor was your general. And I agree that the wolves defect is gak, it really just helps them

Legion II

But in all seriousness, I like the Salamanders with the way each warrior's gear is personally maintained by them. I like that.

The Salamanders also care about normal people right?

The one that got away

templarsandorks? wrote:The one that got away

Meaning who exactly