I have been wondering this for a while. In Codex: Necrons there is a description about Trazyn's collection.

...his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and a giant of a man wearing baroque Power Armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream-to name but a few.

Now, it could just be any regular Space Marine, but I doubt an ordinary "item" like that would be worth a special mention. Furthermore, it is revealed that he probably has hundreds of them in his war-galleries. This encourages the possibilty that it could be a Primarch, since they were considerably larger than average Space Marines and wore more ornamental Power Armor. But who could it be? I came up with many different possibilties.

First of all, it could be Jaghtai Khan. He disappeared into the Webway while fighting Dark Eldar. They torture their victims, so that could explain his screaming face.

Or, it could be Corax or Vulkan, who were lost into the Warp.

Ferrus Manus is unlikely, since he has no head left.

What do you think? Lets have some wild speculation!

Robot Gorillaman.

Handless dorn?

That would be hilarious..

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Handless dorn?

Nope, the IF have his remains encased in amber.

I half-knew that

Maybe Alhpy/Omeggy

Could be an Inquisitor.
Could be one of the Original marines from the unification or the GC...
It being a Primarch... it just sounds silly to me...

BrainDeleted wrote:Robot Gorillaman.

Yeah, could be Rowboat.

Trazyn did the ol' switcheroo.

Skarwael wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:Robot Gorillaman.

Yeah, could be Rowboat.

Trazyn did the ol' switcheroo.

Yeah. Its actually Alpharius spying on the smurfs in the 'stasis' chamber.

What color is baroque anyway?

N.
relating to, or characteristic of a style in art and architecture developed in Europe from the early 17th to mid-18th century, emphasizing dramatic, often strained effect and typified by bold, curving forms, elaborate ornamentation, and overall balance of disparate parts.

Well that was awkward...
It doesn't really sound like any of the descriptions of the Loyalist Primarch or their armour...

Your taking the description a tad literally, in this context baroque means highly decorative or ornate (as in its a style rather than a colour) which pretty much describes the power armour of any high ranking Imperial leader from a Primarch to a Chapter Master right down to an Inquisitor or a highly decorated squad leader.

Its clearly Draigo >.>

In seriousness, powerguy hit it on the head, but I also think baroque is being used to describe something older. As in "highly decorative or ornate (as in its a style rather than a colour) and coming from an older generation"

Giant of a man in fancy PA clearly implies its a Primarch. otherwise they would just say "some space marine or random dude from the heresy"


As to which primarch, Russ and Khan are out. They were last seen entering the EoT and Webway respectivly, 2 areas the Crons don't have access to. Not to mention its heavily implied that Vect is holding Khan prisoner.

it could be Vulkan, Corax, or Alpharus/Omegon as all 3 are 'avaliable' as in their location is unknown and is within the grasp of the Necrons.

Roboute is a farfetched, but hilarious, possability. not outside of the abilities of Trazyn, and its something he would do. he is abit of a troll after all and it would be downright funny if he had the real Roboute and the Ultramarines had a replica.

Vulkan was not lost in the Warp.
He is just MIA

forruner_mercy wrote:Vulkan was not lost in the Warp.
He is just MIA

So is Corax every other spartan.
Same with Master Chief and Noble 1,2,3,4,5,6
Wait wrong universe.

The Giant Man is most likely Vulkan.

Asherian Command wrote:

forruner_mercy wrote:Vulkan was not lost in the Warp.
He is just MIA

So is Corax every other spartan.
Same with Master Chief and Noble 1,2,3,4,5,6
Wait wrong universe.

The Giant Man is most likely Vulkan.

That was just so the OP knows he was not lost in the Warp.

The giant man could also be other Primarchs, so I think saying it is "most likely" Vulkan is the wrong term.

It's open ended so eventually Black Library can a jimmy out a book or 5 on Necrons. In all fairness, a series of books on Trazyn's whacky, zaney adventures wouldn't be such a bad idea and would iron out the lameness of Necrons.

gaunt's ghosts v.2

Grey Templar wrote:As to which primarch, Russ and Khan are out. They were last seen entering the EoT and Webway respectivly, 2 areas the Crons don't have access to. Not to mention its heavily implied that Vect is holding Khan prisoner.

Well, the Necrons do have access to the Webway with the Dolmen Gates, and that's besides the fact that Khan could have found his way out of the Webway onto some random world. I've never read anything implying that Vect holds Khan prisoner, care to elaborate?

Also, any important Astartes, Inquisitor or even an Imperial Guard commander (such as Macharius. Although I do hope that that's not the case (although it would be an interesting way to bring him back.)) would fit the bill. Or anyone, really, but it would probably be someone important (remember, Trazyn isn't that picky. If he can't get the original, he does settle for something less).

Not only is most likely the wrong term, its the opposite term of what you would want to use. Of the possibilities, he is the least likely! Vulkan disappeared intentionally, he is in hiding in accordance with a prophecy, etc.
Khan, Russ, Corax, Night Haunter or one of the two unknowns are the most likely options.

Khan is somewhat unlikely given the fact that it is hinted he's Vect's plaything, though his presence in the webway does not preclude him from becoming a Necron prisoner (new fluff and all)

Russ is a possibility as well, to the best of my understanding, the warp is no longer inaccessible to the Necrons, just unnavigable due to a lack of psychic ability, so the crons could very well enter the EoT, but getting out of it might be an issue...

Corax is a ditto, we dont even know if he made it to the EoT...

Night Haunter is believed dead, but the kill is unconfirmed...

and the unknowns are unknowns

Dorn is a possibility as well I suppose, but I think when they recovered his hand (in the retconned fluff) his weapons and armor were with it, so thats an unlikely possibility as well.

Hell for all we know, its Horus himself, pulled from his destruction at the hands of the Emperor at the very last moment...

or hell, maybe its the Emperor himself, and what the IoM thought was the Emperor was just an elaborate ruse ;P

Khan seems most likely. Necrons access the webway. Khan disappeared into the webway.

ph34r wrote:Khan seems most likely. Necrons access the webway. Khan disappeared into the webway.

Except Vect's fluff heavily implies he has a Primarch, of which Khan is the most likely candidate as every other possability is a stretch too far. Just like the Trazyn going into the Warp or Web way just to collect a trinket, Trazyn is a little excentric, but he isn't stupid. he won't do something that is worth more trouble then the rewards.

besides, if it was Khan then he would probably also have his bike which would be worth mentioning.

It could be a Custode or perhaps Garro himself?

As a side note, I really enjoyed the short piece of fluff where Trazyn gave "gift" of a tesseract labyrinth to Inquisitor Valeria.

Last night I was playing against a friend who was playing GK, and I was looking at the inquisitors section, and realized that she has, as an equipment choice, a tesseract labyrinth. Looks like she possessed the intellect to escape it, after all.

Grey Templar wrote:Not to mention its heavily implied that Vect is holding Khan prisoner

could you quote the passage...DE codex I assume


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:Necrons access the webway

they do? have a quote?

The do access the Webway it is the new codex. It was referenced in the fluff.

Page 7 mentions it during the end of the war in heaven and page 8 describes the Dolmen Gates and how they force open gateways into the web way. However, the web way is able to detect such intrusions so Necron units must move through them quickly or be lost in the warp.

Yes. Necrons have access to the Webway, as NecronLord3 kindly explained.

Those guys who were lost in the Warp (Russ, Corax, Dorn) are out of the game. And so are those who are under strict protection, like Girlyman and Jonson.

But as of now, Khan, Vulkan and Alpharius Omegon are the most likely Primarch candidates.

It could also be possible, that he has some surprising character, such as Sanguinius, one of the unknown Primarchs or even Horus.

Horus is impossible. The Emperor exploded him.


Considering that he somehow has the head of Sebastian Thor, which one would think would be fairly heavily guarded, it's not that big of a stretch to think that he got Guilliman and the Ultramarines are too ashamed to admit it. Though considering that Ward wrote the codex, it's unlikely.

Bit of a crackpot theory here:

What if the man isn't a real man at all? What if he's a painting of a man in baroque armour, a painting that has the face in an eternal scream because it's the one Fulgrim's soul is inside?

Tengri wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Not to mention its heavily implied that Vect is holding Khan prisoner

could you quote the passage...DE codex I assume

I don't think it was in the DE codex, but I'll check. I believe this piece of fluff predates the DE codex 5th ed.

As for the primarch in Trazyn's possession, we know the location of most primarchs, so let's just stick with the MIA ones.

So far, the MIA primarchs are as follows:
-Vulkan
-Russ
-Corax
-Alpharius (or Omegon, depending on the one that survived the ultramarines)
-Khan

Russ and Corax were last seen heading for the EoT, and if there is one place in the entire galaxy where the necrons don't tread, that's the EoT.
Khan Was last seen entering a portal leading to the portion of the webway controlled by DE. he is rumored to be still held captive by the DE for their cruel arena games.
As for Alpharius/Omegon, I don't see how a crazy space robot scientist could ever capture a primarch specialized into covert operations and secrecy.

So Vulkan seems to be the most likely IMO.

All the other primarchs are either fooling around in the EoT or dead/held in stasis/kept in amber/decapitated.

It may not be a primarch. Maybe its just one of the chapter masters. A chapter master could have very ornate artificer armor and could be huge in stature as well. After all, they have the genes of their primarch.

Durza wrote:Horus is impossible. The Emperor exploded him.


Considering that he somehow has the head of Sebastian Thor, which one would think would be fairly heavily guarded, it's not that big of a stretch to think that he got Guilliman and the Ultramarines are too ashamed to admit it. Though considering that Ward wrote the codex, it's unlikely.

Bit of a crackpot theory here:

What if the man isn't a real man at all? What if he's a painting of a man in baroque armour, a painting that has the face in an eternal scream because it's the one Fulgrim's soul is inside?

This does bring up a point. It could be possible, if they have the knowledge on how to travel in the Warp. Fulgrim's face could be like that because of pain, disappointment or even remorse.

Maybe we will never know...

Durza wrote:Horus is impossible. The Emperor exploded him.

So how come there was a body for the Emps Children to try to clone?

I personally favour the idea that it is a custodes.

EDIT: Has anyone considered II and XI ?

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and [b]a giant of a man wearing baroque Power

Didnt they retcon the Enslavers?

As for the OPs question, that reads to me as a primarch. My guess is Russ.

Nah, russ armour was found at a khornate temple. I doubt the necrons wouldgo so far as to travel to daemonic temples

Castiel wrote:

Durza wrote:Horus is impossible. The Emperor exploded him.

So how come there was a body for the Emps Children to try to clone?

Good mention.

The Emperor destroyed Horus soul, not his body.

Could be why the clones didn't come out as planned.

But there sure isn't a body now as it was destroyed by the Black Legion.

tedurur wrote:
Didnt they retcon the Enslavers?

I was a bit concerned that they had totally rewritten the whole war in heaven and why the C'tan went into hibernation, they apparently did, and the Enlsavers don't get a mention directly but could be explained by



Which to me, seems to imply the Enlsavers were the undoing of the Old Ones.

tedurur wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
his collection includes the fabled Wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver, and [b]a giant of a man wearing baroque Power

Didnt they retcon the Enslavers?

As for the OPs question, that reads to me as a primarch. My guess is Russ.

No, the enslavers still exist, and there was likely still an enslaver plague, but it is no longer the reason the Necrons went into stasis.

I still don't see why everyone is so insistent it must be a primarch. Primarchs certainly fit the bill, but it could just as easily be someone else: an inquisitor, a techno-barbarian lord, a human leader/warrior from a non-imperial alligned world, some great general, any number of more recent space marines, an iron man. It is left deliberately vague, a primarch is no more likely than any other option. If anything I think the other options are more likely than it being a primarch. It isn't like the galaxy has a shortage of giant men who wear/wore baroque power armor, and most primarchs either have a logical reason to not be considered (russ does not wear 'baroque' stylearmor, others are not somewhere the necrons would have access too), have important fluff responsibilities that GW is unlikely to hijack for a one line entry in the Necron Codex (Vulkan), or are just too important to the fluff overall for GW to consider (GW is not going to give guilliman to Trazyn. Funny idea, yes, but lets be realistic here) . It's just a vague and interesting tidbit to think about, not a focal point of the 40k storyline.

My bet would be on another figure. A warlord, an iron man, an inquistor. All more likely to be available to Trazyn, more likely to fit the 'baroque' description, and a more likely meta target of GW fluff writers.

But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

Grey Templar wrote:But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

But, for example, can you pick up the fisrt Chapter Master of the Blood Angels everyday? Some CMs inquisitors etc are more important, and thus collectible than others of their kind.

Maybe it's what happened to old Valdor .

Grey Templar wrote:But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

But...he already has. Preserved head of Sebastian Thor, remember?

He captures and preserves guardsmen from great battles, and you think a chapter master or inquisitor is below his notice? How does that make sense? It is standing right next to the ossified husk of an enslaver, who greatly outnumbered chapter masters and inquisitors, and are much less important on an individual basis. If anything the mention of a Primarch amongst those items would be out of place, not an inquisitor or chapter master. And, again, it could still be a warlord, man of iron, rogue trader, high lord of terra, or some other important individual.

riplikash wrote:I still don't see why everyone is so insistent it must be a primarch. Primarchs certainly fit the bill, but it could just as easily be someone else: an inquisitor, a techno-barbarian lord, a human leader/warrior from a non-imperial alligned world, some great general, any number of more recent space marines, an iron man. It is left deliberately vague, a primarch is no more likely than any other option.

Rule of cool. When it comes to 40k collectibles, the Primarchs are the best of the bunch. Limited edition, only 20 ever made, and each one is unique. Custodes, Regular Marines, Thunder Warriors, all of them are (or were) as common as flies at one point or another. Plus 'baroque' does imply age, and 'giant of a man' is something I read as meaning bigger than a Space Marine (Marines are big, but there're also a know quantity when it comes to size).

Don't forget that it could also be one of the two missing primarchs.

daveNYC wrote:

riplikash wrote:I still don't see why everyone is so insistent it must be a primarch. Primarchs certainly fit the bill, but it could just as easily be someone else: an inquisitor, a techno-barbarian lord, a human leader/warrior from a non-imperial alligned world, some great general, any number of more recent space marines, an iron man. It is left deliberately vague, a primarch is no more likely than any other option.

Rule of cool. When it comes to 40k collectibles, the Primarchs are the best of the bunch. Limited edition, only 20 ever made, and each one is unique. Custodes, Regular Marines, Thunder Warriors, all of them are (or were) as common as flies at one point or another. Plus 'baroque' does imply age, and 'giant of a man' is something I read as meaning bigger than a Space Marine (Marines are big, but there're also a know quantity when it comes to size).

Don't forget that it could also be one of the two missing primarchs.

Fairly sure both Missing Primarchs were accounted for... and dealt with.
Inquisitors can be pretty unique.
As can Custodes.

I'd want to say It's Vulkan, just because I could see both of them encountering each other while searching for Artifacts.

I don't see any reason why It coulden't be a Primarch.

Pick a single officer from the British army over the past thousand years.
What is the liklihood of that officer being a Field Marshal?
There have been countless chapter masters, people clad in artificer/terminator armour over the ages. You're assuming it's a primarch because you really really want it to be a primarch, nothing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

Primarchs are some of the most powerful beings in the universe. Definately powerful enough to dick over some [see forum posting rules] necron who tried to take him.

It could be Johnson. Giant man, dissapeared, venerable. I think it's Lion'el.

It is plausible for it to be an inquisitor. The one that immediatly springs to mind is Witch Hunter Tyrus:

http://darkheresy.wikia.com/wiki/Inquisitor_Tyrus

or possibly Hector Rex:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hector_Rex#.TujT77IoH3M

Hector is under Malleus quarantine, so it's unlikely him. Anyone know what happened to Tyrus though?

There have been thousands of famous and important inquisitors over the years. I really think it is futile to try and guess who it is. I get that theorizing can be fun, but we really have absolutely nothing to go on.

Pick a single officer from the British army over the past thousand years.
What is the liklihood of that officer being a Field Marshal?
There have been countless chapter masters, people clad in artificer/terminator armour over the ages. You're assuming it's a primarch because you really really want it to be a primarch, nothing more.

And why would something that's so common, interest Trazyn? Something as common as a Chapter master wouldn't be worth the line in the codex. The line was clearly meant to cause speculation, and indicate a Primarch. If it is or not, we'll never know since GW won't ever reveal what happened.

Primarchs are some of the most powerful beings in the universe. Definately powerful enough to **** over some ***** necron who tried to take him.

The Necrons shattered the C'tan, in which single a one at the Height of it's power could crush all the Primarchs at once. It' is certainly not out of the realm of possibility that A Race with vastly superior tech, could capture a Primarch, especially if they are completely unaware of the capabilities of the Necrons, which they would be.

Joey wrote:Pick a single officer from the British army over the past thousand years.
What is the liklihood of that officer being a Field Marshal?
There have been countless chapter masters, people clad in artificer/terminator armour over the ages. You're assuming it's a primarch because you really really want it to be a primarch, nothing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

Primarchs are some of the most powerful beings in the universe. Definately powerful enough to dick over some [see forum posting rules] necron who tried to take him.

They're powerful but they have their limitations, and Necrons are considered to be the masters of realspace science. Even Guilliman is being held by regular old Imperium stasis field technology. The tricky bit really isn't holding a Primarch, it's getting them into a position to spring the trap.

Sasori wrote:

And why would something that's so common, interest Trazyn? Something as common as a Chapter master wouldn't be worth the line in the codex. The line was clearly meant to cause speculation, and indicate a Primarch. If it is or not, we'll never know since GW won't ever reveal what happened.

Again, the other two items mentioned in the same sentence are an inquisitors head and an enslaver. A chapter master would fit right in. He collects guardsmen for dioramas. How is a chapter master less valuable than anything else mentioned in his collection? Or an inquisitor. Or a man of iron. Or a famous warlord, xeno, custodes, lord of terra, rogue trader, champion of chaos, etc. etc. etc. There is no shortage of giants in power armor in the universe!

There is nothing favoring the primarch hypothesis over any other. There are several arguments against it, though none particularly strong or definitive.

So it is just vague. That's it.

I love the new Necron fluff. I bought a new Necron army because I read the codex. However, let's think about this for a moment. Most Necrons weren't even awake during the Horus Heresy, and all of the loyalist primarchs died or went missing within a few hundred years after the Heresy. I seriously doubt that Trazyn woke up that early. So, I am far more likely to believe that it was a chapter master or just some big giant of a guy in artificer armor.

Let's remember, he doesn't care about the details. Maybe he wanted a primarch. But since he coudln't get one, he simply took the closest equivalent - some chapter master who looked like a primarch, who is conveniently in artificer armor and put him in his collection.For all we know, maybe he wanted Abaddon (who is a lot more recent, and whose black crusades in the past might have aroused his interest). But since he couldn't get Abaddon because the guy is mostly in the eye of terror or all over the place. So he just grabbed a chaos lord and called it a day.

Space marine in ornate armor could just as easily be a chaos lord as well right? Mutations and chaos god gifts can easily make a chaos lord to become a "giant" of a man.

Eldenfirefly wrote:I love the new Necron fluff. I bought a new Necron army because I read the codex. However, let's think about this for a moment. Most Necrons weren't even awake during the Horus Heresy, and all of the loyalist primarchs died or went missing within a few hundred years after the Heresy. I seriously doubt that Trazyn woke up that early. So, I am far more likely to believe that it was a chapter master or just some big giant of a guy in artificer armor.

Let's remember, he doesn't care about the details. Maybe he wanted a primarch. But since he coudln't get one, he simply took the closest equivalent - some chapter master who looked like a primarch, who is conveniently in artificer armor and put him in his collection.For all we know, maybe he wanted Abaddon (who is a lot more recent, and whose black crusades in the past might have aroused his interest). But since he couldn't get Abaddon because the guy is mostly in the eye of terror or all over the place. So he just grabbed a chaos lord and called it a day.

Space marine in ornate armor could just as easily be a chaos lord as well right? Mutations and chaos god gifts can easily make a chaos lord to become a "giant" of a man.

He doesn't care about the details for his dioramas. So if he's setting up the last stand of the Cadian 522th, but ends up with a bunch of Valhallans, then he'd probably just take off the furry hats, maybe use some Army Painter primer to redo the basecoat, and call it a day. I'd suspect that anything he has as a stand alone exhibit would be a bit more accurate and a more unique item.

10,000 years isn't that big an error percentage wise, given how long the Necrons slept.

What I meant was that Trazyn was stil sleeping when the primarchs were active. By the time he awoke and was in a position to "capture" one, the primarchs were either dead, missing, or have become daemon princes. So, if he really wanted a primarch in his collection, then he would more likely have just used a chapter master instead. The codex says that the silent king only started to reawaken the necrons after he encountered the tyranids. And the tyranids didn't come into the galaxy until well after the horus heresy. According to the codex, the earliest awakenings was during the age of apostles.

Eldenfirefly wrote:What I meant was that Trazyn was stil sleeping when the primarchs were active. By the time he awoke and was in a position to "capture" one, the primarchs were either dead, missing, or have become daemon princes. So, if he really wanted a primarch in his collection, then he would more likely have just used a chapter master instead. The codex says that the silent king only started to reawaken the necrons after he encountered the tyranids. And the tyranids didn't come into the galaxy until well after the horus heresy. According to the codex, the earliest awakenings was during the age of apostles.

Presumably he would have aquired one of the missing ones. It is hard to refute them being captured as we don't know where they were or what they were doing. They could have been active somewhere, captured, or preserved somehow. I don't see this as being a problem to the primarch theory. Primarchs may have been available. We just don't know.

Again, that is what it comes down to. We just don't know. There is no strong evidence either way.

The loyalist primarchs can't live forever, unless they went into the eye of terror like Lemun Russ, where time may flow differently.

Its possibly but extremely unlikely. By the time Trazyn awoke and was active, all the loyalist primarchs would already be dead. Missing means missing in the warp (Like the Lion or Russ). While I think Trazyn is powerful, I doubt that he would want to venture into the warp just to look for and collect a primarch.

Same goes for the traitor primarchs. They are either dead, or become daemon princes. Missing would imply missing in the warp too. Necrons just aren't keen to venture into the eye of terror. Their Dolman gates gives them limited travel within the webway, but it doesn't mean they can travel freely through the warp. They don't have the astronimicon.

Eldenfirefly wrote:The loyalist primarchs can't live forever, unless they went into the eye of terror like Lemun Russ, where time may flow differently.

Actually they could. We don't know if they are immortal or not. They are made from the essence of the emperor, who is immortal. We just don't know.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:It could be Johnson. Giant man, dissapeared, venerable. I think it's Lion'el.

He's sleeping deep within the Rock. Lion El' Johnson is out.

I remember hearing a theory that it was Vulkan which made sense to me at the time, though I heard all the details second hand so I don't have sources. Wasn't Vulkan a smith who made his own armour (or worked on it at least), as well as being one of the larger primarchs? Mentioning the prisoner's size as being large, as well as describing his armour as baroque leant credence to the idea that it was Vulkan.

Also, I agree that the prisoner is a primarch. There would have been no need to mention it especially if it was one of the dime a dozen inquisitors or chapter masters. Plus, we don't know how long primarchs live, nor how long Trazyn's actually been active, or if he had connections with the Praetorians who never slept.

Personally, I'd consider Robot or Vulkan as the likely suspects. If he's capable of sneaking away the head of one of the Imperium's heroes, I'd think him capable of stealing a frozen Primarch. Coupled with the piece of fluff from the WD where he mentions Guillotine being an old friend...

Dytalus wrote:
Also, I agree that the prisoner is a primarch. There would have been no need to mention it especially if it was one of the dime a dozen inquisitors or chapter masters. Plus, we don't know how long primarchs live, nor how long Trazyn's actually been active, or if he had connections with the Praetorians who never slept.

Oh yeah, obviously they wouldn't mention something on the level of an inquisitor...like the one they mentioned in the exact same sentence. Why does everyone who brings up the point "inquisitors and chapter masters aren't important enough to mention" ignore the fact that the other two items listed are of that level of importance. It is like they said of a modern collection "he has on display a 16th century bible, a golden cup, and a 17th century suit of armor" and everyone interprets it as "OMG THE GOLDEN CUP IS THE HOLY GRAIL!!!! YOU KNOW IT IS THE HOLY GRAIL BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER MENTION ANYTHING LESS IMPORTANT LIKE SOME BOOK OR ARMOR OR SOMETHING!!!"

And why does everyone also always focus on inquisitors and chapter masters and ignore the numerous other examples that would make just as much sense, and more sense then a primarch: a man of iron, a chaos warlord, a famous rogue trader, etc. etc. etc.

That sentence makes absolutely no mention of an Inquisitor. What it lists are: "the fabled wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver and a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream."

There is no inquisitor there. And Inquisitors are not "giants of men". They're just normal men in power armour, so that rules them out. I'd also rank an entire wraithbone choir, and the head of one of the Imperium's saviours as being remarkably more important than an Inquisitor or a chapter master tbh.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:It could be Johnson. Giant man, dissapeared, venerable. I think it's Lion'el.

Johnson is in the Rock, thats a fact that we as the omniessent 3rd party know. The DA don't know, but we do.

Ouze wrote:As a side note, I really enjoyed the short piece of fluff where Trazyn gave "gift" of a tesseract labyrinth to Inquisitor Valeria.

Last night I was playing against a friend who was playing GK, and I was looking at the inquisitors section, and realized that she has, as an equipment choice, a tesseract labyrinth. Looks like she possessed the intellect to escape it, after all.

Looks like.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Ouze wrote:As a side note, I really enjoyed the short piece of fluff where Trazyn gave "gift" of a tesseract labyrinth to Inquisitor Valeria.

Last night I was playing against a friend who was playing GK, and I was looking at the inquisitors section, and realized that she has, as an equipment choice, a tesseract labyrinth. Looks like she possessed the intellect to escape it, after all.

Looks like.

Or she had a poor minion open it.

Maybe it was Konrad Curze, and the scream is his dual personalities?

Im leaning towards Lionel, he disappeared mysteriously and left luthor batcrap insane.

But either way thats another primarch in the dead pile, thanks Ward.

Dytalus wrote:That sentence makes absolutely no mention of an Inquisitor. What it lists are: "the fabled wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver and a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream."

There is no inquisitor there. And Inquisitors are not "giants of men". They're just normal men in power armour, so that rules them out. I'd also rank an entire wraithbone choir, and the head of one of the Imperium's saviours as being remarkably more important than an Inquisitor or a chapter master tbh.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the scream, so probably at least biological. And for some reason I kept thinking sebastian thor was an inquisitor.

I still don't see how an Inquisitor or Chapter Master wouldn't fit in though. Would Maranous Calgar, Hector Rex, or Gregor Eisenhorn be out of place in that list? There are plenty of figures in the Imperium and beyond of similar importance.

And of course there are inquisitors who are "giants of men", and Rogue traders, and generals. There have been humans mentioned who rival, and even stand larger than space marines in the fluff.

Dytalus wrote:That sentence makes absolutely no mention of an Inquisitor. What it lists are: "the fabled wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver and a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream."

There is no inquisitor there. And Inquisitors are not "giants of men". They're just normal men in power armour, so that rules them out. I'd also rank an entire wraithbone choir, and the head of one of the Imperium's saviours as being remarkably more important than an Inquisitor or a chapter master tbh.

Inquistors can be very big. They have access to almost everything at the Imperium's disposal. Whose to say they aren't enhanced to be bigger and stronger. Some Inquisitors probably have saved the Imperium... or at least large swathes of it.

Deadshot wrote:Maybe it was Konrad Curze, and the scream is his dual personalities?

Curze is dead.

Ravenous D wrote:Im leaning towards Lionel, he disappeared mysteriously and left luthor batcrap insane.

But either way thats another primarch in the dead pile, thanks Ward.

Lionel is in the Rock. We know this as a 3rd party but the Da do not.

I idn't say he need to be alive. Maybe his body was preserved. if Curze's body was destroyed, then scrap that.


Maybe it was one of the 2 lost Primarchs? maybe the Legion was lost because the New Necrons took their Tachyon Arrows, the Stormlord and Scarabspam and went ape- on them? The Emperor was too cowardly( or smart. A Space Marine Legion getting wiped by Xenos would have caused a lack of Faith in them) to tell, so hhe declares them missing and leaves the Primarch and few survivors to go out with a bang. The Infinate guy just happened to pick up the body.

it also makes sense. I understand that bar Corax and Sang, who needed to fly, and had lighter amrour, they all had TDA once it can out.

Could just be a dead space marine from before the heresy... Although I don't think the necrons were even on the radar in the 31st. Doesn't mean tranzyzyzyznynyn wasn't around though.

Maybe it's Russ. Although the space wolves found his power armor,so never mind.

Castiel wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Ouze wrote:As a side note, I really enjoyed the short piece of fluff where Trazyn gave "gift" of a tesseract labyrinth to Inquisitor Valeria.

Last night I was playing against a friend who was playing GK, and I was looking at the inquisitors section, and realized that she has, as an equipment choice, a tesseract labyrinth. Looks like she possessed the intellect to escape it, after all.

Looks like.

Or she had a poor minion open it.

That still counts as outsmarting it in my books.

Deadshot wrote:I idn't say he need to be alive. Maybe his body was preserved. if Curze's body was destroyed, then scrap that.


Maybe it was one of the 2 lost Primarchs? maybe the Legion was lost because the New Necrons took their Tachyon Arrows, the Stormlord and Scarabspam and went ape- on them? The Emperor was too cowardly( or smart. A Space Marine Legion getting wiped by Xenos would have caused a lack of Faith in them) to tell, so hhe declares them missing and leaves the Primarch and few survivors to go out with a bang. The Infinate guy just happened to pick up the body.

it also makes sense. I understand that bar Corax and Sang, who needed to fly, and had lighter amrour, they all had TDA once it can out.

Curze AFAIK had his head chopped off...
Again AFAIK both Legions were accounted for and dealt with in whatever way...

It's not that i don't think it could be a primarch, it would make sense as well, it's just that it would be rather sily for it to be a primarch...

What do you mean both Legions were accounted for? Nop one knows what happened. One is called the Forgotten , and the other, the Purged. As far as anyone is concerned, they just disappeared.

riplikash wrote:

Dytalus wrote:
Also, I agree that the prisoner is a primarch. There would have been no need to mention it especially if it was one of the dime a dozen inquisitors or chapter masters. Plus, we don't know how long primarchs live, nor how long Trazyn's actually been active, or if he had connections with the Praetorians who never slept.

Oh yeah, obviously they wouldn't mention something on the level of an inquisitor...like the one they mentioned in the exact same sentence. Why does everyone who brings up the point "inquisitors and chapter masters aren't important enough to mention" ignore the fact that the other two items listed are of that level of importance. It is like they said of a modern collection "he has on display a 16th century bible, a golden cup, and a 17th century suit of armor" and everyone interprets it as "OMG THE GOLDEN CUP IS THE HOLY GRAIL!!!! YOU KNOW IT IS THE HOLY GRAIL BECAUSE THEY WOULD NEVER MENTION ANYTHING LESS IMPORTANT LIKE SOME BOOK OR ARMOR OR SOMETHING!!!"

And why does everyone also always focus on inquisitors and chapter masters and ignore the numerous other examples that would make just as much sense, and more sense then a primarch: a man of iron, a chaos warlord, a famous rogue trader, etc. etc. etc.

But it would be pretty weird to just say: And he has the head of this inquisitor and the body of this one and..."

Knowing Ward, I would guess he wants to stir up some conversation by this reference. Besides Chapter Masters are not larger than normal marines, and Inquisitors are normally the size of regular humans. The description is too vague to be just an ordinary officer. It gives a sense of mystery, otherwise it could just be "the body of a Chapter Master, whose face seems to be screaming." I think it is vague on purpose.

Deadshot wrote:What do you mean both Legions were accounted for? Nop one knows what happened. One is called the Forgotten , and the other, the Purged. As far as anyone is concerned, they just disappeared.

Their fate was known to the Primarchs, the Emperor, and any Marines that were around when whatever happened happened.

Lorgar was warned that if he kepts defying the Emperor's order to not worship him then his fate might be like his 2 brothers. This implies that the Emperor actually killed them and wiped all records of their existance. The Space Wolves also imply they have fought Astartes before, maybe being the Emperor's tool to destroy those 2 legions.


The probability of Trazyn having one of the 2 lost ones is highly implausable.

Deadshot wrote:What do you mean both Legions were accounted for? Nop one knows what happened. One is called the Forgotten , and the other, the Purged. As far as anyone is concerned, they just disappeared.

There is a reason Russ and the Wolves are called the Executioners. Also at one point in First Heretic, Lorgar mentions to someone that he is worried about being purged "What will my father do, sick his dogs on me like our brothers?" I think is the quote

purplefood wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:Im leaning towards Lionel, he disappeared mysteriously and left luthor batcrap insane.

But either way thats another primarch in the dead pile, thanks Ward.

Lionel is in the Rock. We know this as a 3rd party but the Da do not.

And thors head is on his body on Terra, and the enslavers were the reason the necrons went to sleep, and there is only 4 ctan etc etc, point is, Ward crapped on the fluff, it doesnt matter what was before.

riplikash wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:But why would Trazyn have a Chapter Master or Inquisitor as a trinket, even a "famous" one?

Chapter Masters and Inquisitors are a dime a dozen in the 40k universe relativly speaking. he isn't one for collecting something he could literally pick up any time and any place.

But...he already has. Preserved head of Sebastian Thor, remember?

He captures and preserves guardsmen from great battles, and you think a chapter master or inquisitor is below his notice? How does that make sense? It is standing right next to the ossified husk of an enslaver, who greatly outnumbered chapter masters and inquisitors, and are much less important on an individual basis. If anything the mention of a Primarch amongst those items would be out of place, not an inquisitor or chapter master. And, again, it could still be a warlord, man of iron, rogue trader, high lord of terra, or some other important individual.

The way I see it is he collects things that are outstanding or amazing. A hero guardsman is something pretty amazing, considering what they're expected to do is be sent into the meat grinder. The reason why I find a chapter master or inquisitor a little less likely is because they are expected to do these amazing things. So maybe if they did something beyond expectations then it would probably catch Trazyn's eye.

For anyone who knows card games and stuff, let's say a chapter master or inquisitor is a really rare card that does your usual flashy stuff, pretty neat and its probably worth a bit, but imagine one that does your flashy stuff, but if you look closely at it, the flashy stuff can actually be used to pull of an amazing game winning combo. So instead of being your pretty cool rare, it becomes OP, and everyone wants it.

If that didn't make sense at all (most likely cuz i'm nodding off), what I'm saying is that you can't compare a CM or an Inquisitor to an guardsman, the expectations are different.


Back on topic, if it were a primarch, I'd have to say Vulkan because he's got the smithing skill, and his chapter is full of master craftsmen. It is most likely out of the primarchs that he would have baroque armour. Plus he left looking for those artifacts and such, and what race do we know has pretty cool OLD tech? Necrons

But I'm not gonna bet too much on Vulkan, I don't think GW is above pulling a curveball and the giant turns out to be, as grey templar suggested, a warlord, or techno-barbarian. Could even be a custodes

Dytalus wrote:That sentence makes absolutely no mention of an Inquisitor. What it lists are: "the fabled wraithbone choir of Altansar, the preserved head of Sebastian Thor, the ossified husk of an Enslaver and a giant of a man clad in baroque power armour, his face contorted in a permanent scream."

There is no inquisitor there. And Inquisitors are not "giants of men". They're just normal men in power armour, so that rules them out. I'd also rank an entire wraithbone choir, and the head of one of the Imperium's saviours as being remarkably more important than an Inquisitor or a chapter master tbh.

I keep forgetting about the scream part of the line. If it were a primarch, I think this lends some evidence to the theory that it could be Fulgrim. Could. Just putting it out there

As an avid fan of the mighty Green Marines, I don't like where this is going that the majority of folks think its Vulkan that the freaky old necron guy has! I reckon the Salamanders should be knocking on Trazyn's door...

Also, throwing another one in there, it could be Lorgar. None of the Word Bearers have seen him for 7000 years since he locked himself in a big cathedral on Sicarius. So if people think that Trazyn can manage to swipe Guilliman out of Macragge when he's constantly guarded, it wouldn't be beyond his capabilities to ambush Lorgar whilst he was meditating by himself.

I love the avid defence from DA fans that its absolutely not the Lion. Most of the Dark Angels don't know what happened to him.

Also, Corax completely disappeared without a trace when he left Deliverance. There has been no mention of what could have happened to him. Whereas with many of the other loyalists there is a prophecy (Vulkan), a shrine or hiding place (Lion, Guilliman, Sanguinius) or findings off equipment/pieces of them (like Russ and Dorn)

Caranthir987 wrote:As an avid fan of the mighty Green Marines, I don't like where this is going that the majority of folks think its Vulkan that the freaky old necron guy has! I reckon the Salamanders should be knocking on Trazyn's door...

Also, throwing another one in there, it could be Lorgar. None of the Word Bearers have seen him for 7000 years since he locked himself in a big cathedral on Sicarius. So if people think that Trazyn can manage to swipe Guilliman out of Macragge when he's constantly guarded, it wouldn't be beyond his capabilities to ambush Lorgar whilst he was meditating by himself.

I love the avid defence from DA fans that its absolutely not the Lion. Most of the Dark Angels don't know what happened to him.

Also, Corax completely disappeared without a trace when he left Deliverance. There has been no mention of what could have happened to him. Whereas with many of the other loyalists there is a prophecy (Vulkan), a shrine or hiding place (Lion, Guilliman, Sanguinius) or findings off equipment/pieces of them (like Russ and Dorn)

The Lion is in the Rock, as it's been said before. The watchers watch over him.

Lorgar seems like a stretch, it's easier to take a sleeping or in stasis primarch, but a fully aware demon prince primarch? I don't think it's a good idea

Don't Necrons have all sorts of anti-warp tech though? If they do, I would imagine that a daemon primarch wouldn't be hard to take down. I mean if Draigo can do it with a ballpoint pen, I think Trayzn could do it with some crazy super anti-warp death beam

TheAngrySquig wrote:Don't Necrons have all sorts of anti-warp tech though? If they do, I would imagine that a daemon primarch wouldn't be hard to take down. I mean if Draigo can do it with a ballpoint pen, I think Trayzn could do it with some crazy super anti-warp death beam

That's true, but daemon princes aren't pure warp, they're still part whatever they once were. They still have their superhuman conditioning and such from the Emp. Chaos just suppliments their already amazing abilities.

In Battle for the Fang


Or at least that's how I think it went

But don't blanks still affect them? And I'm fairly certain that the blanks would be super effective on a daemon-psyker, and we know that necrons use blanks

TheAngrySquig wrote:But don't blanks still affect them? And I'm fairly certain that the blanks would be super effective on a daemon-psyker, and we know that necrons use blanks

Well considering Lorgar wasn't a SUPER psyker like his brother, and I agree that anti-psyker weaponry would be extremely affective, I'm still a little hesitant about that. I mean he's a fully functioning primarch, he can still break things, and tear stuff up. Plus looking at the Word Bearers in general, and their usage of tonnes of minions, I'm pretty sure Lorgar would have a pretty hefy honour guard. Would give him enough time to run if the need arises

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:But don't blanks still affect them? And I'm fairly certain that the blanks would be super effective on a daemon-psyker, and we know that necrons use blanks

Well considering Lorgar wasn't a SUPER psyker like his brother, and I agree that anti-psyker weaponry would be extremely affective, I'm still a little hesitant about that. I mean he's a fully functioning primarch, he can still break things, and tear stuff up. Plus looking at the Word Bearers in general, and their usage of tonnes of minions, I'm pretty sure Lorgar would have a pretty hefy honour guard. Would give him enough time to run if the need arises

Unless Trayzn teleported right next to him, which also isn't unrealistic. And isn't the symbol of the WB now a screaming daemon? So wouldn't that explain the screaming face bit

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:But don't blanks still affect them? And I'm fairly certain that the blanks would be super effective on a daemon-psyker, and we know that necrons use blanks

Well considering Lorgar wasn't a SUPER psyker like his brother, and I agree that anti-psyker weaponry would be extremely affective, I'm still a little hesitant about that. I mean he's a fully functioning primarch, he can still break things, and tear stuff up. Plus looking at the Word Bearers in general, and their usage of tonnes of minions, I'm pretty sure Lorgar would have a pretty hefy honour guard. Would give him enough time to run if the need arises

Unless Trayzn teleported right next to him, which also isn't unrealistic. And isn't the symbol of the WB now a screaming daemon? So wouldn't that explain the screaming face bit

Ah very good point, and if Trazyn does all that anti-warp jazz, Lorgar wouldn't be able to worship his gods, which would probably make him scream too! Very nice.... So basically all primarchs are up for grabs, except the ones that have no bodies left...

and any techno-barbs or custodes, or anyone with nice flashy bitz

Ravenous D wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:Im leaning towards Lionel, he disappeared mysteriously and left luthor batcrap insane.

But either way thats another primarch in the dead pile, thanks Ward.

Lionel is in the Rock. We know this as a 3rd party but the Da do not.

And thors head is on his body on Terra, and the enslavers were the reason the necrons went to sleep, and there is only 4 ctan etc etc, point is, Ward crapped on the fluff, it doesnt matter what was before.

It really does. These things are called retcons, where the old fluff is replaced with new fluff. Is there any new fluff that replaces the facts we know that relate to the location of The Lion? Nope, not a bit. If it's not contradicted, then there's no retcon, and you go with the most up-to-date piece of info.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:But don't blanks still affect them? And I'm fairly certain that the blanks would be super effective on a daemon-psyker, and we know that necrons use blanks

Well considering Lorgar wasn't a SUPER psyker like his brother, and I agree that anti-psyker weaponry would be extremely affective, I'm still a little hesitant about that. I mean he's a fully functioning primarch, he can still break things, and tear stuff up. Plus looking at the Word Bearers in general, and their usage of tonnes of minions, I'm pretty sure Lorgar would have a pretty hefy honour guard. Would give him enough time to run if the need arises

Unless Trayzn teleported right next to him, which also isn't unrealistic. And isn't the symbol of the WB now a screaming daemon? So wouldn't that explain the screaming face bit

Ah very good point, and if Trazyn does all that anti-warp jazz, Lorgar wouldn't be able to worship his gods, which would probably make him scream too! Very nice.... So basically all primarchs are up for grabs, except the ones that have no bodies left...

and any techno-barbs or custodes, or anyone with nice flashy bitz

What about Macharius, he wore baroque armor for sure and was pretty damn important

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:But don't blanks still affect them? And I'm fairly certain that the blanks would be super effective on a daemon-psyker, and we know that necrons use blanks

Well considering Lorgar wasn't a SUPER psyker like his brother, and I agree that anti-psyker weaponry would be extremely affective, I'm still a little hesitant about that. I mean he's a fully functioning primarch, he can still break things, and tear stuff up. Plus looking at the Word Bearers in general, and their usage of tonnes of minions, I'm pretty sure Lorgar would have a pretty hefy honour guard. Would give him enough time to run if the need arises

Unless Trayzn teleported right next to him, which also isn't unrealistic. And isn't the symbol of the WB now a screaming daemon? So wouldn't that explain the screaming face bit

Ah very good point, and if Trazyn does all that anti-warp jazz, Lorgar wouldn't be able to worship his gods, which would probably make him scream too! Very nice.... So basically all primarchs are up for grabs, except the ones that have no bodies left...

and any techno-barbs or custodes, or anyone with nice flashy bitz

What about Macharius, he wore baroque armor for sure and was pretty damn important

Yeah anyone with flashy bitz, ahaha great now everyone's up for grabs. CURSE YOU GW

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:But don't blanks still affect them? And I'm fairly certain that the blanks would be super effective on a daemon-psyker, and we know that necrons use blanks

Well considering Lorgar wasn't a SUPER psyker like his brother, and I agree that anti-psyker weaponry would be extremely affective, I'm still a little hesitant about that. I mean he's a fully functioning primarch, he can still break things, and tear stuff up. Plus looking at the Word Bearers in general, and their usage of tonnes of minions, I'm pretty sure Lorgar would have a pretty hefy honour guard. Would give him enough time to run if the need arises

Unless Trayzn teleported right next to him, which also isn't unrealistic. And isn't the symbol of the WB now a screaming daemon? So wouldn't that explain the screaming face bit

Ah very good point, and if Trazyn does all that anti-warp jazz, Lorgar wouldn't be able to worship his gods, which would probably make him scream too! Very nice.... So basically all primarchs are up for grabs, except the ones that have no bodies left...

and any techno-barbs or custodes, or anyone with nice flashy bitz

Well, no, not really. A Daemon Primarch is a Daemon. The Necrons do not understand the Warp, there's no way even Trazyn and teleport into the Eye of Terror and somehow over-power a Daemon as powerful as Lorgar.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Yeah anyone with flashy bitz, ahaha great now everyone's up for grabs. CURSE YOU GW

Not anyone. Someone who's abnormally tall, probably taller than a marine, and wears power armour. Which limits it to particularly tall Marines, Custodes, Primarchs and possibly a few other things. I'm a Xenos guy, and not too well versed on the various complex orders and such of the Imperium.

What about the Sanguinor. He is basically a huge flashy bit?

TheAngrySquig wrote:What about the Sanguinor. He is basically a huge flashy bit?

Except he's capable of showing up in battle, so there's a near 0% chance it's him trapped in Trazyn's collection.

Okay fine then let me be more clear then, it could be anyone but that anyone must be a giant in baroque armour....

Great, back at square one


OOP, and with the Sanguinor comment, that anyone also has to be someone that doesn't reappear every once in a while. I think that's covered most of my bases

There is no chance of Trayzn having something to block him teleporting like a simple stasis field? Seems unlikely

Yup. ^ _ ^

I'm liking the Fulgrim theory now that people have mentioned it. Though as a Chaos Primarch, wouldn't he be all daemonic and stuff? I'd assume it'd be mentioned if he had giant horns and tentacles erupting from his stomach.

Dytalus wrote:Yup. ^ _ ^

I'm liking the Fulgrim theory now that people have mentioned it. Though as a Chaos Primarch, wouldn't he be all daemonic and stuff? I'd assume it'd be mentioned if he had giant horns and tentacles erupting from his stomach.

True, but that's the daemon incontrol of Fulgrim's body that has all dem tentacles and stuff.

Fulgrim is entombed in a painting well a snake-demon controls his body

There are only two ways a Daemon can be bound to the material realm. Neither of these ways work with the story.

But he's a daemon prince. He's not full daemon, so wouldn't it be easier for them to come into the material world?

Vulkan is still the best fit.

He was huge - the second biggest of the primarchs. He wore armour he crafted himself, and liked good craftsmanship. He went off on his own and was never seen again, so it's not unlikely that he found Trazyns tomb world and got captured.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:But he's a daemon prince. He's not full daemon, so wouldn't it be easier for them to come into the material world?

Same rules apply. Either he stores the Daemon in a Tesseract Labirynth, which means there's no body or screaming face, or he binds the Daemon using sorcery, which the Necrons cannot comprehend.

So daemon princes are right out?

not out, but way too much of a stretch when there are easier candidates like Vulkan and Corax.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So daemon princes are right out?

For the Necrons, yes. They're the stuff of the Warp now, a realm the simply cannot understand.

Grey Templar wrote:not out, but way too much of a stretch when there are easier candidates like Vulkan and Corax.

iproxtaco wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:So daemon princes are right out?

For the Necrons, yes. They're the stuff of the Warp now, a realm the simply cannot understand.

Great, I'm beginning to think GW is trying really hard to be mysterious here.... It's beginning to look a lot like primarchs...

It almost definitely is a primarch, just makes more sense then a run of the mill SM

Scratch out Alpha/Omegon, he/they wore the same armor as the rest of their chapter, that kind of rules him/them out as a possibility, because it wouldn't fit the key word of 'baroque'

I'm leaning towards Night Haunter personally (and he's not dead, no kill was ever confirmed, no body was ever recovered, nor was the supposed assassin ever found...)

I'm 99% sure its not vulkan though, he disappeared of his own volition to test his chapter. Besides that, 'baroque' wouldn't fit his armor I don't think. He was a master craftsmen, his armor is well buiilt, not necessarily intricate and ornate (in fact as I recall his armor itself was relatively plain compared to most primarchs, barring alpharius/omegon), its something to do with the overall mindset of the Salamanders and how they are humble, etc.

TheAngrySquig wrote:It almost definitely is a primarch, just makes more sense then a run of the mill SM

We don't even know if it is an SM.
Though it would also make sense for it to be a Thunder Warrior...
They were the precursor to the SM. The instrument to create one of the biggest and most viscious galactic empires. They were the first of the Emperor's creations...

But they were just humans right, not super huge

chaos0xomega wrote:Scratch out Alpha/Omegon, he/they wore the same armor as the rest of their chapter, that kind of rules him/them out as a possibility, because it wouldn't fit the key word of 'baroque'

I'm leaning towards Night Haunter personally (and he's not dead, no kill was ever confirmed, no body was ever recovered, nor was the supposed assassin ever found...)

I'm 99% sure its not vulkan though, he disappeared of his own volition to test his chapter. Besides that, 'baroque' wouldn't fit his armor I don't think. He was a master craftsmen, his armor is well buiilt, not necessarily intricate and ornate (in fact as I recall his armor itself was relatively plain compared to most primarchs, barring alpharius/omegon), its something to do with the overall mindset of the Salamanders and how they are humble, etc.

Night Haunter is dead, he was killed and had his head lopped off, the entire legion saw it, but under orders from the Night Haunter himself they were told not to pursue. Except Soul Hunter

Read through the Night Lords novels, the assassin was found, and she is very much dead

TheAngrySquig wrote:But they were just humans right, not super huge

Try Again BRagg was a normal human. He was massive...
Whose to say that a Terran warrior wasn't a similar size to an SM...

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Scratch out Alpha/Omegon, he/they wore the same armor as the rest of their chapter, that kind of rules him/them out as a possibility, because it wouldn't fit the key word of 'baroque'

I'm leaning towards Night Haunter personally (and he's not dead, no kill was ever confirmed, no body was ever recovered, nor was the supposed assassin ever found...)

I'm 99% sure its not vulkan though, he disappeared of his own volition to test his chapter. Besides that, 'baroque' wouldn't fit his armor I don't think. He was a master craftsmen, his armor is well buiilt, not necessarily intricate and ornate (in fact as I recall his armor itself was relatively plain compared to most primarchs, barring alpharius/omegon), its something to do with the overall mindset of the Salamanders and how they are humble, etc.

Night Haunter is dead, he was killed and had his head lopped off, the entire legion saw it, but under orders from the Night Haunter himself they were told not to pursue. Except Soul Hunter

Read through the Night Lords novels, the assassin was found, and she is very much dead

Night Haunter is also an XBAWKS HUGE psyker, more then capable of leaving a legion he no longer has any faith in and giving them a vision to make it seem like he was dead so they wouldn't look for him

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Scratch out Alpha/Omegon, he/they wore the same armor as the rest of their chapter, that kind of rules him/them out as a possibility, because it wouldn't fit the key word of 'baroque'

I'm leaning towards Night Haunter personally (and he's not dead, no kill was ever confirmed, no body was ever recovered, nor was the supposed assassin ever found...)

I'm 99% sure its not vulkan though, he disappeared of his own volition to test his chapter. Besides that, 'baroque' wouldn't fit his armor I don't think. He was a master craftsmen, his armor is well buiilt, not necessarily intricate and ornate (in fact as I recall his armor itself was relatively plain compared to most primarchs, barring alpharius/omegon), its something to do with the overall mindset of the Salamanders and how they are humble, etc.

Night Haunter is dead, he was killed and had his head lopped off, the entire legion saw it, but under orders from the Night Haunter himself they were told not to pursue. Except Soul Hunter

Read through the Night Lords novels, the assassin was found, and she is very much dead

Night Haunter is also an XBAWKS HUGE psyker, more then capable of leaving a legion he no longer has any faith in and giving them a vision to make it seem like he was dead so they wouldn't look for him

I'm not sure, but i'm sensing a little sarcasm.... just a little

No sarcasm, he was a great psyker, especially with visions and he hated his legion because it had become the filth he destroyed on Nostramo


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I won't deny that you are sensing a bit of Kurze fanboyism however

Still doesn't explain the head that the assassin took, I don't think he's that great of a psyker

The assassin was a plant by Kurze and the head was cloned, more than plausible in the 41st millennium. And iirc, he was the 3rd or fourth best psyker after Lorgar and Magnus and maybe Sangy

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Scratch out Alpha/Omegon, he/they wore the same armor as the rest of their chapter, that kind of rules him/them out as a possibility, because it wouldn't fit the key word of 'baroque'

I'm leaning towards Night Haunter personally (and he's not dead, no kill was ever confirmed, no body was ever recovered, nor was the supposed assassin ever found...)

I'm 99% sure its not vulkan though, he disappeared of his own volition to test his chapter. Besides that, 'baroque' wouldn't fit his armor I don't think. He was a master craftsmen, his armor is well buiilt, not necessarily intricate and ornate (in fact as I recall his armor itself was relatively plain compared to most primarchs, barring alpharius/omegon), its something to do with the overall mindset of the Salamanders and how they are humble, etc.

Night Haunter is dead, he was killed and had his head lopped off, the entire legion saw it, but under orders from the Night Haunter himself they were told not to pursue. Except Soul Hunter

Read through the Night Lords novels, the assassin was found, and she is very much dead

Night Haunter is also an XBAWKS HUGE psyker, more then capable of leaving a legion he no longer has any faith in and giving them a vision to make it seem like he was dead so they wouldn't look for him

If he wanted to do that he would have done a 180 with his legion and thrown himself on the mercy of the Imperium(specifically his brothers Dorn and Roboute)

He is officially dead and is not an option. No indication is given that he faked his death.

So it's like another, he'll be back on doomsday thing all over again?

I'm still not buying it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Scratch out Alpha/Omegon, he/they wore the same armor as the rest of their chapter, that kind of rules him/them out as a possibility, because it wouldn't fit the key word of 'baroque'

I'm leaning towards Night Haunter personally (and he's not dead, no kill was ever confirmed, no body was ever recovered, nor was the supposed assassin ever found...)

I'm 99% sure its not vulkan though, he disappeared of his own volition to test his chapter. Besides that, 'baroque' wouldn't fit his armor I don't think. He was a master craftsmen, his armor is well buiilt, not necessarily intricate and ornate (in fact as I recall his armor itself was relatively plain compared to most primarchs, barring alpharius/omegon), its something to do with the overall mindset of the Salamanders and how they are humble, etc.

Night Haunter is dead, he was killed and had his head lopped off, the entire legion saw it, but under orders from the Night Haunter himself they were told not to pursue. Except Soul Hunter

Read through the Night Lords novels, the assassin was found, and she is very much dead

Night Haunter is also an XBAWKS HUGE psyker, more then capable of leaving a legion he no longer has any faith in and giving them a vision to make it seem like he was dead so they wouldn't look for him

If he wanted to do that he would have done a 180 with his legion and thrown himself on the mercy of the Imperium(specifically his brothers Dorn and Roboute)

He is officially dead and is not an option. No indication is given that he faked his death.

Didn't he want to die as well?

Grey Templar wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Scratch out Alpha/Omegon, he/they wore the same armor as the rest of their chapter, that kind of rules him/them out as a possibility, because it wouldn't fit the key word of 'baroque'

I'm leaning towards Night Haunter personally (and he's not dead, no kill was ever confirmed, no body was ever recovered, nor was the supposed assassin ever found...)

I'm 99% sure its not vulkan though, he disappeared of his own volition to test his chapter. Besides that, 'baroque' wouldn't fit his armor I don't think. He was a master craftsmen, his armor is well buiilt, not necessarily intricate and ornate (in fact as I recall his armor itself was relatively plain compared to most primarchs, barring alpharius/omegon), its something to do with the overall mindset of the Salamanders and how they are humble, etc.

Night Haunter is dead, he was killed and had his head lopped off, the entire legion saw it, but under orders from the Night Haunter himself they were told not to pursue. Except Soul Hunter

Read through the Night Lords novels, the assassin was found, and she is very much dead

Night Haunter is also an XBAWKS HUGE psyker, more then capable of leaving a legion he no longer has any faith in and giving them a vision to make it seem like he was dead so they wouldn't look for him

If he wanted to do that he would have done a 180 with his legion and thrown himself on the mercy of the Imperium(specifically his brothers Dorn and Roboute)

He is officially dead and is not an option. No indication is given that he faked his death.

Why would he have just submitted to his brothers? He also hated his legion and didn't want to have anything to do with them. And while there is nothing to say it officially, I really like Kurze and my theory isn't that far fetched. It doesn't even have to be a clone, it could just be a legionaire that looks alot like him, Alfy pulled it off

Night Haunter wanted vindication, that's why he got himself killed, like those artists out there doing funky things to make a point, that's what curze did. By letting himself get killed he.... dammit ran out of steam

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:But he's a daemon prince. He's not full daemon, so wouldn't it be easier for them to come into the material world?

Daemon Princes are superior to any other form of daemon, with the exception of something like a full-blown minor Chaos God.

Konrad Curze is known to be dead. Dead as dead can possibly be. They even have it on camera. They could, of course, retcon it into a "but he wasn't really dead" situation, but I don't think that's the case. Oh, yes, by the way, they did find the assassin that killed him. Well, the Nightlords found her, anyway.

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:Night Haunter wanted vindication, that's why he got himself killed, like those artists out there doing funky things to make a point, that's what curze did. By letting himself get killed he.... dammit ran out of steam

He wanted revenge not vindication. And try pop tarts, they put the steam right back in you regardless

Ravenous D wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:Im leaning towards Lionel, he disappeared mysteriously and left luthor batcrap insane.

But either way thats another primarch in the dead pile, thanks Ward.

Lionel is in the Rock. We know this as a 3rd party but the Da do not.

And thors head is on his body on Terra, and the enslavers were the reason the necrons went to sleep, and there is only 4 ctan etc etc, point is, Ward crapped on the fluff, it doesnt matter what was before.

There's more than 4 c'tan now? Then things are worst than I could have imagined..



Ward....must....kill....ward...warrrrrddddd

Samus_aran115 wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:And thors head is on his body on Terra, and the enslavers were the reason the necrons went to sleep, and there is only 4 ctan etc etc, point is, Ward crapped on the fluff, it doesnt matter what was before.

There's more than 4 c'tan now? Then things are worst than I could have imagined..



Ward....must....kill....ward...warrrrrddddd

Hi, non-noob here. You are both clearly relatively new to the game, and so don't know what happened when the old Necron codex came out.


The old Necron codex gak over EVERYTHING. The "4 c'tan behind everything hurr hurr" was THE WORST FLUFF MOVE GW EVER MADE.

It was an abomination of writing. And guess what? Ward didn't even exist on the radar back then.


The new Necron codex is a shining jewel of anti-horribleness and anyone on the Ward-hate bandwagon that thinks the Necron codex is an extension of his bad fluff writing deserves to be shipped back to 4th edition and forced to fight Eldar until they repent.

Oh hush, there were always more than 4 ctan, we just used to think most of them got consumed. Now it is thought that that is not the case. The new fluff is great, and a huge improvement over the old, your just trying to jump on the ward hate bandwagon.

How is this one of the more horrible things in the fluff?

And how are you getting on a soap box?

Hmmm I have to disagree. While there were problems with the old fluff I did rather like the idea of an awakening monolithic empire of doom and the C'tan masters of old.

However I will concede that it probably wasn't the greatest of ideas as it made it hard to expand on the existing fluff with anything past 'Boo we're gonna get you! We're still getting over a hang over from our last orgy and so we can't do anything about it right now, but when we do... we'll get you!'.

I can accept that viewpoint, it is the knee jerk "it was made by ward so it must be crap" response that is tiring. Even if you prefer the old fluff, the new stuff isn't bad, and hardly worthy of such vitrol.

You pretty much summed up my feelings on the matter with the second paragraph. I can see the allure of the mysterious, faceless army, it is just totally inappropriate for a playable race.

Again, you summed it up why it doesn't work well. And it is kind of a bit of a mary sue thing, "ooohh, we're all powerful and super cool and scary and made everything happen and win at everything and the only way we ever lost in the first palce was 'cause everything was already dead. So, we're so cool and powerful and could totally kill everything, but we're all sleepy right now you you are only fighting 1% of our power, cause we're so awesome 'n stuff".

I liked the feel, it just didn't work for a playable race.

I don't believe for a moment that the original quote is implying a Primarch. Why?

-Any marine is a "Giant of a Man" when compared to a normal human
-There are a few descriptions of Inquisitors being at least 7-8 feet tall (Hector Rex i believe is one)
-Remember, Space Marines aren't Actually a dime a dozen like we all think, with only around 1 million be around at a time (1000ish chapters of a 1000ish marines each) So compared to the population of humanity and how big the universe is they are quite rare actually.
-Having Fancy armor can allude to pretty much any fairly high ranking SM or INQ. etc. etc.
-As has been pointed out, a Primarch really doesnt fit in with the other mentioned items.
-Primarchs are too valuable fluff wise to kill off, especially ones who are set to return for some reason (Vulkan, Russ, Corax specifically) (Side note, I do think however the Primarch of legions II or XI could be possible as someone mentioned b/c they Failed the emperor (the Lost perhaps?)

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the matter

riplikash wrote:Oh hush, there were always more than 4 ctan, we just used to think most of them got consumed. Now it is thought that that is not the case. The new fluff is great, and a huge improvement over the old, your just trying to jump on the ward hate bandwagon.

How is this one of the more horrible things in the fluff?

And how are you getting on a soap box?

There was 9, 2 were killed by the Eldar blackstone fortresses (no longer exist and thus making alot of the 13th black crusade fluff disappear, including Eldrads death) and the other 3 were eaten by the outsider. All that is gone as the crons themselves killed their own gods, who apparently didnt have the foresight that the necrons would be pissed about giving up their humanity.... but whatever, right?

Contrary to Ph34r and yourself, I think the new necron dex is terrible, as it undoes much of the pre established history of the game. Sure the Ctan were shoe horned in back in 3rd by Andy Chambers but at least he went out of his way to make it make sense. The new book dashed all that to pieces with over the top sillyness. Instead of expanding on what was there it was retconned into oblivion and replaced with dumb doctor who style junk. The Great Sleep is probably the best example, instead of sleeping because the ctans food source was dwindling due to the enslaver plague, they go to sleep for 60 million years because.... um... they felt like it? Sure they were weakened after killing the Ctan but what the hell were the eldar doing while they made massive world tombs? The Eldar had 60 million years to deal with them but instead they make the god of porn. C'mon.

As for the hate bandwagon... wtf is wrong with you people? Are you so abused that you cant tell gak from something that is good? Next you'll be telling me that super hero comics are well written. Ward writes fun rules, but his fluff is atrocious, just admit it, that it can use work and improvement.

SonofTerra wrote:I don't believe for a moment that the original quote is implying a Primarch. Why?

-Any marine is a "Giant of a Man" when compared to a normal human
-There are a few descriptions of Inquisitors being at least 7-8 feet tall (Hector Rex i believe is one)
-Remember, Space Marines aren't Actually a dime a dozen like we all think, with only around 1 million be around at a time (1000ish chapters of a 1000ish marines each) So compared to the population of humanity and how big the universe is they are quite rare actually.
-Having Fancy armor can allude to pretty much any fairly high ranking SM or INQ. etc. etc.
-As has been pointed out, a Primarch really doesnt fit in with the other mentioned items.
-Primarchs are too valuable fluff wise to kill off, especially ones who are set to return for some reason (Vulkan, Russ, Corax specifically) (Side note, I do think however the Primarch of legions II or XI could be possible as someone mentioned b/c they Failed the emperor (the Lost perhaps?)

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the matter

Relative to what Trayzn collects, Space marines are indeed a dime a dozen. relativly speaking.

"Giant man" again is relative here. If it was indeed just a space marine it would just say so. from our perspective Giant men are relativly common, so if it was a Space Marinethey would just say so.

There have always been many C'Tan. Not only four and certainly not only nine. The Nightbringer and the Outsider both have fluff saying they ate quite a few C'Tan. One was tricked into it by the deceiver, the other by the Laughing God of the Eldar. I don't know why anyone would think the Black Stone fortresses are gone. The Necrons went into sleep mode (aka hiding) because of the Eldar and the orks and such after being weakened from the fight with the C'Tan.

Many of the elements of the old fluff are still there, the codex just spends a lot less time talking about ancient history than it does about the present unlike the older dex. Yes, things were changed but please don't over exaggerate. Sorry?

All Space Marines are giants when compared to men. A giant of a man could refer to any space marine. Baroque would mean ornate and old looking power armour. It doesn't necessarily mean that Trazyn has a Primarch but it also doesn't preclude a Primarch

BrainDeleted wrote:
All Space Marines are giants when compared to men. A giant of a man could refer to any space marine. Baroque would mean ornate and old looking power armour. It doesn't necessarily mean that Trazyn has a Primarch but it also doesn't preclude a Primarch

Not enough evidence for or against?

For everyone saying one of the Unknown Primarchs is the so-called captive, they can't be, as they don't have access to power armour, do they?
I was sure that the big E never found them..

All primarchs were found, and fought alongside their legions IIrc.

The two were then lost, and purged respectively.

//Calle

ah, ok, seem I was mistaken

it's Sigmar..... the necrons can even raid other settings.

SonofTerra wrote:I don't believe for a moment that the original quote is implying a Primarch. Why?

-Any marine is a "Giant of a Man" when compared to a normal human
-There are a few descriptions of Inquisitors being at least 7-8 feet tall (Hector Rex i believe is one)
-Remember, Space Marines aren't Actually a dime a dozen like we all think, with only around 1 million be around at a time (1000ish chapters of a 1000ish marines each) So compared to the population of humanity and how big the universe is they are quite rare actually.
-Having Fancy armor can allude to pretty much any fairly high ranking SM or INQ. etc. etc.
-As has been pointed out, a Primarch really doesnt fit in with the other mentioned items.
-Primarchs are too valuable fluff wise to kill off, especially ones who are set to return for some reason (Vulkan, Russ, Corax specifically) (Side note, I do think however the Primarch of legions II or XI could be possible as someone mentioned b/c they Failed the emperor (the Lost perhaps?)

Anyways, those are my thoughts on the matter

It wouldn't be worth mentioning in the codex if it were not a Primarch or someone of nigh equal value like Constantin Valdor.

The only way I would accept that it could be a primarch would be if Trazyn went and secretly stole the body of an existing dead Primarch. Like Robert Gullimane from the Ultramarines.

Actually, if I was Trazyn, I think I would more likely do that rather than go on some wide goose chase in the warp searching fruitless for something which entire chapters have failed to find. I mean, some loyalist Primarchs are already nicely preserved in stasis, just need to secretly go there and rob the body. That should to be quite straight forward for someone such as Trazyn.

Psienesis wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:But he's a daemon prince. He's not full daemon, so wouldn't it be easier for them to come into the material world?

Daemon Princes are superior to any other form of daemon, with the exception of something like a full-blown minor Chaos God.

Not entirely true

IA: Infernal Threat At the pinnacle of daemonic society are the Daemon Princes. To a follower of Chaos, the ascension to the status of Daemon Prince is the ultimate accolade. Although many are less powerful in the field of battle than the Greater Daemon, there are those have the capacity to enslave worlds to their whim, or change reality with a glance.

I think it also mentions in Codex: Daemons that some Greater Daemons look down on the Daemon Princes as lesser than them as they are not full Daemon.

Codex: Chaos Space Marines also goes on to state

Amongst the wide Daemonic Pantheon, Greater Daemons are the most Powerful.

TheAngrySquig wrote:

He wanted revenge not vindication. And try pop tarts, they put the steam right back in you regardless

From the Night Haunters lips

"Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

In the WD he said something about him planning to visit Guilliman.
In the report with Ward himself.

thenoobbomb wrote:In the WD he said something about him planning to visit Guilliman.
In the report with Ward himself.

But that was after the dex came out so...

Ravenous D wrote:
the Eldar blackstone fortresses (no longer exist and thus making alot of the 13th black crusade fluff disappear, including Eldrads death)

What makes you think that this is the case? It's not mentioned in the Necron Codex, but that doesn't delve into a great deal of detail in regards to the war against the Old Ones. The Blackstone Fortresses could still have been constructed by either Vaul or the Eldar themselves. Perhaps not singularly to fight the C'tan (although why not? The Eldar would have struggled against them as well), but they could be present nonetheless (and nothing suggests to me that they are not).

All that is gone as the crons themselves killed their own gods, who apparently didnt have the foresight that the necrons would be pissed about giving up their humanity.... but whatever, right?

The C'tan were hugely arrogant. They didn't expect the Silent King to turn on them, and even he did, they likely thought that they'd have the power to defeat the Necrons. They underestimated the a potential foe. That's not that unlikely.

The Great Sleep is probably the best example, instead of sleeping because the ctans food source was dwindling due to the enslaver plague, they go to sleep for 60 million years because.... um... they felt like it?

They go to sleep because they were too weak to face the Eldar after defeating both the Old Ones and the C'tan. It makes more sense than the C'tan deciding not to eliminate the few threats to them because they felt like not doing so why they went to sleep (seriously? They could've (seemingly) sent Necrons to wipe out the Eldar and destroy the Talismans of Vaul (well, maybe not the actual Talismans of Vaul if Vaul was still operating them, but a good chunk of the Eldar) while the Eldar were in disarray and dying to the Enslavers, but instead decided to sleep before doing that one thing.

Sure they were weakened after killing the Ctan but what the hell were the eldar doing while they made massive world tombs?

Recovering from the war? Developing technology (we don't know what level they were at, afterall)? They were not too keen on sacrificing their lives in the midst of assault by Warp entities when they don't have to? Really, what would you do if your enemies had just disappeared? How would the Eldar know that they'd gone to sleep? How would they know where these Tomb Worlds were?)

Actually the Great Sleep doesn't make as much sense now. If they were so weak that they were in danger of getting stomped by the Eldar, then running and/or hiding makes sense, but investing huge amounts of resources to build stasis tombs on what were already their homeworlds... not so much. Their plan was basically 100% dependent on the Eldar not putting much effort into hunting them down.

King Pariah wrote:
It wouldn't be worth mentioning in the codex if it were not a Primarch or someone of nigh equal value like Constantin Valdor.

Then why does the codex have about two paragraphs about the capture and escape of a White Scars Captain?

All the people saying this kind of thing are not being reasonable at all.

daveNYC wrote:Actually the Great Sleep doesn't make as much sense now. If they were so weak that they were in danger of getting stomped by the Eldar, then running and/or hiding makes sense, but investing huge amounts of resources to build stasis tombs on what were already their homeworlds... not so much. Their plan was basically 100% dependent on the Eldar not putting much effort into hunting them down.

The Necrons are spread across the galaxy. They didn't just build stasis tombs in the immediate vicinity of their homeworld, and we don't even know if the Eldar knew where the Necrontyr came from.

Being unable to face the Eldar in open combat is one thing (although I'm not sure how much damage the Warp entities did to them), especially since without the C'tan present the Eldar would have the advantage in the Webway (both sides main source of faster-than-light travel), but the Eldar may not have had the ability (or the will - afterall, they had just fought a losing war against the Necrons and their servants, and would not have known what the Necrons were doing. Restarting a war with a foe of unknown strength that had just destroyed both your masters and their former allies (of great power) would not be a great move)) to actually enter into the Tomb Worlds and destroy the Necrons.

The Eldar did destroy some tomb worlds. The problem is that tomb worlds are very well concealed. Any race would get bored of it after a few million years and do some other stuff. It's like losing at hide and seek when you're the seeker. What the heck are you supposed to do when the other kids won't come out? Go play a different game.(And create Slaanesh with sex)

Yep, apparently there are millions if not more tomb worlds in the universe and billions upon billions of necrons. So if that was them in their weakened state, how big was the eldar empire?

Let's go over it guys...we will never know who that man is.
GW just love to troll us like that.
Just like Terminus Decree or Prmarchs of Legions II and IX.

BrainDeleted wrote:

King Pariah wrote:
It wouldn't be worth mentioning in the codex if it were not a Primarch or someone of nigh equal value like Constantin Valdor.

Then why does the codex have about two paragraphs about the capture and escape of a White Scars Captain?

All the people saying this kind of thing are not being reasonable at all.

For one, the White Scars captain was about Zahndrekh and Obyron. So that really has nothing to do with the Discussion about Trazyn's Collections.


And yes, it would need to be someone valuable for a mention in Trazyn's Collections.

Ravenous D wrote:Yep, apparently there are millions if not more tomb worlds in the universe and billions upon billions of necrons. So if that was them in their weakened state, how big was the eldar empire?

The Eldar also had access to far greater Psychic powers prior to the birth of Slaanesh than they do now. It is possible that their threat came not just from numbers, but Psychic prowess coupled if superiority in the Webway. The Necron forces may also have been repairing or rebuilding following their two titanic wars (not just the footsoldiers but the larger machines of destruction, such as the World Engine). Not to mention that they still had their gods, whereas the Necrons had just defeated theirs.

Sasori wrote:And yes, it would need to be someone valuable for a mention in Trazyn's Collections.

Valuable, yes, but not necessarily unique (afterall, one Enslaver is not unique. There's an entire species of them.) So an important Chapter Master, for instance, would fit.

BrainDeleted's point still stands anyway. The Codex is not just about hugely important things (and let's face it, a living Primarch would be a massively important trophy). That section was about Trazyn's character more than what he specifically has in my opinion.

I am going with Cypher. Explains where he has been since 3rd edition, and gives a chance for him to show up in the next Chaos Codex.

Maybe its one of the lost primarchs like vulcan

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Ravenous D wrote:Yep, apparently there are millions if not more tomb worlds in the universe and billions upon billions of necrons. So if that was them in their weakened state, how big was the eldar empire?

The Eldar also had access to far greater Psychic powers prior to the birth of Slaanesh than they do now. It is possible that their threat came not just from numbers, but Psychic prowess coupled if superiority in the Webway. The Necron forces may also have been repairing or rebuilding following their two titanic wars (not just the footsoldiers but the larger machines of destruction, such as the World Engine). Not to mention that they still had their gods, whereas the Necrons had just defeated theirs.

Sasori wrote:And yes, it would need to be someone valuable for a mention in Trazyn's Collections.

Valuable, yes, but not necessarily unique (afterall, one Enslaver is not unique. There's an entire species of them.) So an important Chapter Master, for instance, would fit.

BrainDeleted's point still stands anyway. The Codex is not just about hugely important things (and let's face it, a living Primarch would be a massively important trophy). That section was about Trazyn's character more than what he specifically has in my opinion.

They are not going to outright Mention a primarch, they are just going to give us the lines to speculate about it.

I don't See how Braindeleted points stands at all, considering it's a specific circumstance involving Two completely different Necrons. They needed someone current for Zahndrekh and Obyrons story, as they more combat and war oriented, compared to Trazyn who is a preserver of histories.

Trazyn also referred to Guliman as "An Old friend" and said he would "Be better served in my company than yours" It's clear that Trazyn has the means to capture and hold Primarchs if he is going to make such a bold statement to captain Sicarus. His statement also implies that he was active during the time of Heresy. it's quite possible that he laid a trap for one of the Primarchs after the Hersey.

There is literately no reason why they wouldn't say something like "Among a slew of ancient and venerated chapter masters that adorn his collection" instead of the baroque line if it was something so simple. Chapter masters aren't special, and there would no reason to be vague about it

RAVEN 97 wrote:Maybe its one of the lost primarchs like vulcan

That's been gone over a fair few times already!

That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

No reason to be vague if its a Primarch either.

Castiel wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

No reason to be vague if its a Primarch either.

Uh, yes there is. GW will never outright say where the Primarchs are. So, there is a reason for it to be Vague.

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

Because they are purposely being vauge to generate discussion, obviously. That is the whole point, to make it vague enough that we cannot know.

They want it to be open ended so they can stick in whoever they want, and the actual identity has in no way been nailed down.

How can you say the fact that it is so vague we can't tell who it is is proof it is a primarch?

riplikash wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

Because they are purposely being vauge to generate discussion, obviously. That is the whole point, to make it vague enough that we cannot know.

How can you say the fact that it is so vague we can't tell who it is is proof it is a primarch?

Because it's clearly vague to Indicate a Primarch. There is no other reason, why they would make that line Vague. Of course it's supposed to generate discussion, but it implies a Primarch. If you had read my other posts, I've gone over this.

Sasori wrote:

riplikash wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

Because they are purposely being vauge to generate discussion, obviously. That is the whole point, to make it vague enough that we cannot know.

How can you say the fact that it is so vague we can't tell who it is is proof it is a primarch?

Because it's clearly vague to Indicate a Primarch. There is no other reason, why they would make that line Vague. Of course it's supposed to generate discussion, but it implies a Primarch. If you had read my other posts, I've gone over this.

They might have made it vague simply because it generates all kinds of discussions rather than 'It's a primarch but which one?'
They might have made it vague simply because they like being vague.
They might have made it vague because they can't think up a character who is good enough to get stasis-napped but not important enough or well liked to make people annoyed at the Necron Codex because of it...

Sasori wrote:
Because it's clearly vague to Indicate a Primarch. There is no other reason, why they would make that line Vague. Of course it's supposed to generate discussion, but it implies a Primarch. If you had read my other posts, I've gone over this.

Obviously it isn't that clear, and I get the impression you didn't read many of my posts to that effect in the first 3-4 pages where I went over it.

Baroque and giant is not enough to clearly indicate a primarch. The argument that 'only a primarch is important enough' is clearly refuted by the fact that the other 3 things mentioned in the sentence are not of nearly that level of importance. There is no shortage of important giants in baroque power armor in the 40k universe.

Even among the primarchs there are very few viable candidates, and those that are viable are unlikely due to fluff and meta reasons. I say unlikely, not impossible, because I readily admit it COULD be a primarch, because it is so vague. That is the point.

But no, it isn't obviouse. People just want it to be and start grasping for the flimsiest justifications. And I'm not trying to be rude, but "a primarch is the only possible reason to be vague about it" is one of the flimsiest.

They left it vague to leave their options open, not tie themselves down, and to generate discussion. Not to prove it's a primarch.

Sasori wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:That could very well be a Custodes. They are tall to, even among Astartes.

Then why woulden't it say so? There is no reason to be vague about a Custodes.

It doesn't say that's a Primarch at all, just giant men clad in baroque power armor. What Astartes have that kind of armor?

Baroque and giant is not enough to clearly indicate a primarch. The argument that 'only a primarch is important enough' is clearly refuted by the fact that the other 3 things mentioned in the sentence are not of nearly that level of importance. There is no shortage of important giants in baroque power armor in the 40k universe.

Sebastian Thor had a major impact on the Imperium, while not as great of an extent as perhaps the Primarchs, is he is up there. Enslavers nearly wiped out the galaxy of Sentient life. They had a bigger impact that the Primarchs ever had. I don't know anything about the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, but it's probably one of a Kind.

So, two of those things can't be replicated. Two of them we know both had major impacts on history, and are thus very important in the eyes of a Historian.

Even among the Primarchs there are very few viable candidates, and those that are viable are unlikely due to fluff and meta reasons. I say unlikely, not impossible, because I readily admit it COULD be a primarch, because it is so vague. That is the point.

What Fluff makes it unlikely that Vulkan could be captured? and what do you mean by "Meta". It's no more unlikely Vulkan than it is for something else.

But no, it isn't obviouse. People just want it to be and start grasping for the flimsiest justifications. And I'm not trying to be rude, but "a primarch is the only possible reason to be vague about it" is one of the flimsiest.

It's no more flimsy than someone saying it's a run of the mill captain. It makes a lot more sense to word a line like that, when we know that GW is never going to officially reveal the locations of the lost Primarchs.

They left it vague to leave their options open, not tie themselves down, and to generate discussion. Not to prove it's a primarch.

Unless you write for them, you can't know their intentions when writing the line. While I agree it was written to generate discussion, the rest of your interpretation here, holds just as much ground as mine does.

The line is clearly there to implicate the possibility of a Primarch, the fact that so many people jumped on that conclusion proves this. We will never know what it is though.

EDIT:

t doesn't say that's a Primarch at all, just giant men clad in baroque power armor. What Astartes have that kind of armor?

Common Astartes don't. That's the point.

Sasori wrote:
Sebastian Thor had a major impact on the Imperium, while not as great of an extent as perhaps the Primarchs, is he is up there. Enslavers nearly wiped out the galaxy of Sentient life. They had a bigger impact that the Primarchs ever had. I don't know anything about the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, but it's probably one of a Kind.

There are plenty of people who had similar impact to Sebastian Thor, I don't know how you can claim he is not only on the same level as a primarch in importance, but more important. And yes the enslavers are important as a species, but hey, so are orks, eldar, daemons, and humans. That doesn't make an individual of primarch levels of value. And 'i don't know anything about it but it must be super valuable' doesn't hold water. It doesn't influence this discussion one way or the other. All we really have is a) an important human and b) a sample of a rare and impartial species. That does not imply the only other possible item of similar value could be a Primarch.

So, two of those things can't be replicated. Two of them we know both had major impacts on history, and are thus very important in the eyes of a Historian.

Yes, obviously he collects things of hustorical importance. Thousands of giants in power armor could fit this bill though. Saying "inquisitors and chapter masters and (etc.) are a dime a dozen" only works if you don't mention who they are. Marinus Calger though? Inquisitor Rex? (insert name of rogue trader who saved the galaxy from an ancient old ones artifact here)? Hey, apparently chapter masters, inquisitors, and Rogue Traders CAN be incredably important historical figures.

What Fluff makes it unlikely that Vulkan could be captured? and what do you mean by "Meta". It's no more unlikely Vulkan than it is for something else.

a) he has other prophecies concerning him that GW is unlikely to hijack, b) 'baroque' has never been a good description of his armor style. Of course it still could be him, but he isn't a slam dunk like people are claiming.

It's no more flimsy than someone saying it's a run of the mill captain. It makes a lot more sense to word a line like that, when we know that GW is never going to officially reveal the locations of the lost Primarchs.

Strawman attack, no one ever said it was a run of the mill captain, just that there are plenty of figures of historic importance who could fit the bill.

Unless you write for them, you can't know their intentions when writing the line. While I agree it was written to generate discussion, the rest of your interpretation here, holds just as much ground as mine does.

See, you just agreed with me. You said "what other reason could there be to be vague except it is a primarch", I provided a list of reasons. I agree your explanation is just as likely as the others. I never said it couldn't be a primarch, that might be why they left it vague. But there is insufficient evidence, and you are acting like it is a certainty. Them being vague does not indicate it is a primarch, it just doesn't indicate it is NOT a primarch.

The line is clearly there to implicate the possibility of a Primarch, the fact that so many people jumped on that conclusion proves this. We will never know what it is though.

Where does your logic come from? The fact that a some people, and you have no idea what percentages, assumed it is a primarch means it is and that was their intent? That isn't proof. That isn't...anything.

Common Astartes don't. That's the point.

No one ever said it was a common astartes, you are straw man attacking again. Plenty of giant individual of historical importance wear baroque power armor.

You don't just get to claim a lack of proof is proof your correct.

Considering that Trazyn is fine with replacing lost 'model's in his gallery with appropriate replicas, it is also possible that it is simply a regular space marine in ornate armor. Maybe he just stole a Primarch's armor one day.

While I can see that for diorama's, the intent of the section in question is clearly trying to indicate what valuable items his collection contains.

Maybe is was a fellow from the DAoT?
They may have had a form of power armour...
They may have even had a genetically altered warrior caste...

Sasori wrote: I don't know anything about the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, but it's probably one of a Kind.

Lexicanum is your friend: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Altansar#.TuptZ7KdcqA

So he can't get innto the EoT but he can board an Eldar Craftworld whilst it is caught in the EoT and make off with one of their (presumably) most prized possessions?
Contradictions abound...

Well, since they can apparently access the Webway now(with limitations) I would imagine he entered the Webway and quickly took the door to the Craftworld, stole the Choir, and GTFO of there as fast as possable.

The funniest potential candidate is Lorgar. Sure he's a daemon prince living large in the EoT, but it'd be pretty funny if he locked himself in his Kathedral of Kaos millenia ago, somehow got nabbed by Trazyn, and the Word Bearers are still waiting for him to come out and lead them.

daveNYC wrote:The funniest potential candidate is Lorgar. Sure he's a daemon prince living large in the EoT, but it'd be pretty funny if he locked himself in his Kathedral of Kaos millenia ago, somehow got nabbed by Trazyn, and the Word Bearers are still waiting for him to come out and lead them.

LIES!

There are plenty of people who had similar impact to Sebastian Thor, I don't know how you can claim he is not only on the same level as a primarch in importance, but more important. And yes the enslavers are important as a species, but hey, so are orks, eldar, daemons, and humans. That doesn't make an individual of primarch levels of value. And 'i don't know anything about it but it must be super valuable' doesn't hold water. It doesn't influence this discussion one way or the other. All we really have is a) an important human and b) a sample of a rare and impartial species. That does not imply the only other possible item of similar value could be a Primarch.

I never said Sebastian Thor was important as a Primarch, in fact I Said the opposite. Please re-read my statement. You personally, may not believe that it could be a Primarch, but I do, based on these things. You are free to draw your conclusions based on the evidence one way, and mine the other. It doesn't make either of us incorrect however.

Yes, obviously he collects things of hustorical importance. Thousands of giants in power armor could fit this bill though. Saying "inquisitors and chapter masters and (etc.) are a dime a dozen" only works if you don't mention who they are. Marinus Calger though? Inquisitor Rex? (insert name of rogue trader who saved the galaxy from an ancient old ones artifact here)? Hey, apparently chapter masters, inquisitors, and Rogue Traders CAN be incredably important historical figures.

Sebastian Thor was important to history, and they mentioned his name, why wouldn't they do the same if it was some historical important Chapter Master? Or a Rogue Trader?

a) he has other prophecies concerning him that GW is unlikely to hijack, b) 'baroque' has never been a good description of his armor style. Of course it still could be him, but he isn't a slam dunk like people are claiming.

Can you point me to some descriptions of His armor? I'm almost Certain that it has been described as "Ornate" which can be interchanged with "Baroque"

Strawman attack, no one ever said it was a run of the mill captain, just that there are plenty of figures of historic importance who could fit the bill.

People have stated it could just be a Custodes, or a Inquisitor. Both of which could be, or not be historically relevant.

It's also not necessary to write things like "Strawman Attack." If you are going to attempt to refute my points, just do so instead of finding the need to add things like that as a preface.

See, you just agreed with me. You said "what other reason could there be to be vague except it is a primarch", I provided a list of reasons. I agree your explanation is just as likely as the others. I never said it couldn't be a primarch, that might be why they left it vague. But there is insufficient evidence, and you are acting like it is a certainty. Them being vague does not indicate it is a primarch, it just doesn't indicate it is NOT a primarch.

I've never said it is a 100% certainty that it is a Primarch. I've said the line is clearly there to indicate that Trazyn holds a Primarch, and really the only reason why it would be vague is to create speculation of this type. "Indicate" and "Implies" does not mean 100% Certainty.


Where does your logic come from? The fact that a some people, and you have no idea what percentages, assumed it is a primarch means it is and that was their intent? That isn't proof. That isn't...anything.

It is proof that the line of text was there to indicate the possibility of a Primarch. The fact that people have come to that conclusion IS proof.

No one ever said it was a common astartes, you are straw man attacking again. Plenty of giant individual of historical importance wear baroque power armor.

Sure, there are plenty. Why wouldn't he list their name though?

You don't just get to claim a lack of proof is proof your correct.

When the fact of the matter is, that GW will not outright say what happened to the missing Primarchs, there is never going to be any proof. There are only going to be lines that are supposed to lead us to the conclusion that it may be one. This is one of those lines, and it's as close to proof as you are going to get.




EDIT

Sasori wrote: I don't know anything about the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, but it's probably one of a Kind.


Brother Coa Wrote:
Lexicanum is your friend: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Altansar#.TuptZ7KdcqA

I am well aware of Craftworld Altansar. If you had read the link you posted, you would have known that it doesn't mention the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or any possible historic significance it would have held.

I can assume that a Wraithbone Choir is a bunch of Bonesingers for the Craftworld, but I don't know for sure, and there is no info on Lexicanium about it that I can find. If you have a specific link to Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or Any Wraithbone Choir Article, than that would be relevant to this discussion.

Perhaps it will feature in the upcoming Eldar Codex.

Sasori wrote:
I am well aware of Craftworld Altansar. If you had read the link you posted, you would have known that it doesn't mention the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or any possible historic significance it would have held.

I can assume that a Wraithbone Choir is a bunch of Bonesingers for the Craftworld, but I don't know for sure, and there is no info on Lexicanium about it that I can find. If you have a specific link to Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or Any Wraithbone Choir Article, than that would be relevant to this discussion.

Perhaps it will feature in the upcoming Eldar Codex.

And taking chair from Craftworld that was trapped in EoT for Emperor knows how many centuries is not worth mentioning?
That would be like stealing Golden Throne or Eldar souls from Slaanesh castle.

Brother Coa wrote:

Sasori wrote:
I am well aware of Craftworld Altansar. If you had read the link you posted, you would have known that it doesn't mention the Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or any possible historic significance it would have held.

I can assume that a Wraithbone Choir is a bunch of Bonesingers for the Craftworld, but I don't know for sure, and there is no info on Lexicanium about it that I can find. If you have a specific link to Wraithbone Choir of Altansar, or Any Wraithbone Choir Article, than that would be relevant to this discussion.

Perhaps it will feature in the upcoming Eldar Codex.

And taking chair from Craftworld that was trapped in EoT for Emperor knows how many centuries is not worth mentioning?
That would be like stealing Golden Throne or Eldar souls from Slaanesh castle.

Well, we don't know for sure if it was stolen while it was in the EoT or not. If it was stolen while it was in the EoT it sure doesn't put anything out of Trazyn's Grasp.

I am amazed he didn't try to take Emperor for his collection.
He is one of a kind.

Brother Coa wrote:I am amazed he didn't try to take Emperor for his collection.
He is one of a kind.

Spoiler:

( He is Matt Ward creation, I wouldn't be surprised if he had Khorne as a trophy )

Don't go there Coa...
Just don't.
This thread has more than enough problems with that kind of sheep.

Brother Coa wrote:I am amazed he didn't try to take Emperor for his collection.
He is one of a kind.

Spoiler:

( He is Matt Ward creation, I wouldn't be surprised if he had Khorne as a trophy )

Draigo's law strikes!

Brother Coa wrote:I am amazed he didn't try to take Emperor for his collection.
He is one of a kind.

Spoiler:

( He is Matt Ward creation, I wouldn't be surprised if he had Khorne as a trophy )

People need to lay off the Ward hate. It's getting old, really fast.

Brother Coa wrote:I am amazed he didn't try to take Emperor for his collection.
He is one of a kind.

Spoiler:

( He is Matt Ward creation, I wouldn't be surprised if he had Khorne as a trophy )

Ignoring the Ward-hate dickery, that would be a cool idea.

Brother Coa wrote:I am amazed he didn't try to take Emperor for his collection.

I am sure he has considered doing it. If it was feasable he probably would try, but it probably isn't.

Imagine if he replaced the Emporer with a Necron wrapped in human flesh
Wait, Creed would probablt have to help him...

Sasori wrote:
For one, the White Scars captain was about Zahndrekh and Obyron. So that really has nothing to do with the Discussion about Trazyn's Collections.


And yes, it would need to be someone valuable for a mention in Trazyn's Collections.

Thanks, Mr. Obvious. Try reading what I the quote I was replying to before making comments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sasori wrote:I don't See how Braindeleted points stands at all, considering it's a specific circumstance involving Two completely different Necrons. They needed someone current for Zahndrekh and Obyrons story, as they more combat and war oriented, compared to Trazyn who is a preserver of histories.

Trazyn also referred to Guliman as "An Old friend" and said he would "Be better served in my company than yours" It's clear that Trazyn has the means to capture and hold Primarchs if he is going to make such a bold statement to captain Sicarus. His statement also implies that he was active during the time of Heresy. it's quite possible that he laid a trap for one of the Primarchs after the Hersey.

There is literately no reason why they wouldn't say something like "Among a slew of ancient and venerated chapter masters that adorn his collection" instead of the baroque line if it was something so simple. Chapter masters aren't special, and there would no reason to be vague about it

My point wasn't about Zahndrekh or Obyron. Someone said a Space Marine isn't worth mentioning in the Codex. I was proving that person wrong. Context???

Other than that, it's a very silly thing to say a Chapter Master isn't special or rare. There are only ~1000 in the Galaxy at anyone time. Compare with anything else, please? Especially one that won a great battle or one that was the last of his kind, i.e. last Chapter Master of the Swords of the Emperor or something random like that. Victor of the Battle of Thanitos or anything random like that. The Chapter Master that led his marines to chaos and would later cause a score of systems to fall? There are literally endless possibilities to make any one marine worthwhile to the looney.

Another thing to note, there are no other mentions of Marines in Trazyn's collection. But the passage talks at length about the Guard in his collection. So...He might, in fact, only have one marine in his entire display. Making which ever one worth mention and a special little one line.

Plenty of other people would have access to 'baroque' power armor, it simply means it's ancient and very ornate. Giant of a man...Any space marine fits that bill, even some Inquisitors like Hector Rex. Could just be a Grey Knight higher up. Both are still insanely rare on the grand scale. Primarches do as well, like I said. You can't discount any of these options in favor of the most impressive just because you want to believe in Trazyn's power. It's one line deliberately left vague so GW doesn't have to commit to anything come next codex. No reason to assume it isn't even just a Marine Trazyn dressed up in another famous marine's armor because he's a creep like that. Or even something more esoteric.

It's equally probable Trazyn said things like that to Sicarus because he's a creep and he likes to get into people's heads. 'Nah, nah, nah, I'm really old. I'm dissing your spiritual liege. Ooooh, whatcha gonna do bout it?'

No reason to assume it isn't even just a Marine Trazyn dressed up in another famous marine's armor because he's a creep like that. Or even something more esoteric.

LOL. Love that idea.

Trayzn is now explained to you:

The first chapter master of a First Founding legion would be fairly... collectible?
They are not only a survivor of the HH. They knew the primarchs and were deemed worthy enough to take the remnants of the legion into a new era.
Also they were the first of a new breed of SM commanders. By that i mean tactics not actually genetic differences..
Though some might have...

There are billions of stars in the milky way and millions of planets. There are also countless numbers of battles going on and countless numbers of glorious events occuring, we only see a few of them, who's to say that the ones we are aware of are the only instances of unmitigated glory?

There isn't enough evidence to support a primarch or anyone, to say that it's obviously this, or obviously that, is pure speculation, and that's what they want!

I wouldn't be surprised if GW pulled a jerk move and it turns out to be some random person that no one's ever heard about

Sasori wrote:I never said Sebastian Thor was important as a Primarch, in fact I Said the opposite. Please re-read my statement. You personally, may not believe that it could be a Primarch, but I do, based on these things. You are free to draw your conclusions based on the evidence one way, and mine the other. It doesn't make either of us incorrect however.

Again, never said that. Just said there isn't enough evidence to say one way or the other.

Sebastian Thor was important to history, and they mentioned his name, why wouldn't they do the same if it was some historical important Chapter Master? Or a Rogue Trader?

For the numerous reasons that have been repeated ad-nausium, which you yourself admitted were just as likely as it being a primarch.

People have stated it could just be a Custodes, or a Inquisitor. Both of which could be, or not be historically relevant.

Ok, so we have established Custdes, Inquisitors, etc. could be historyically relevant. So lets drop the whole "dime a dozen" and "some random captain" attacks, ok?

I've never said it is a 100% certainty that it is a Primarch. I've said the line is clearly there to indicate that Trazyn holds a Primarch, and really the only reason why it would be vague is to create speculation of this type. "Indicate" and "Implies" does not mean 100% Certainty.

You agreed in that you said those other options were just as valid reasons. You keep coming back to "it being primarch is the only reason to be vague". It isn't, that argument needs to be dropped.

It is proof that the line of text was there to indicate the possibility of a Primarch. The fact that people have come to that conclusion IS proof.

No, the fact that some people, and we have no idea how many, jumped to the conclusion 'it is a primarch' does not mean their intent was to indicate it is a primarch. I don't know how you could even come to that conclusion. I've heard some people argue it's horus, or the emperor. By your logic this was there intent. Random fan speculation does not in any way imply intent on the authors part.

Sure, there are plenty. Why wouldn't he list their name though?

For the many reasons already listed which you yourself have admitted are just as likely as it being a primarch.

When the fact of the matter is, that GW will not outright say what happened to the missing Primarchs, there is never going to be any proof. There are only going to be lines that are supposed to lead us to the conclusion that it may be one. This is one of those lines, and it's as close to proof as you are going to get.

No, that isn't how logic works. It just mean, as I have been saying, they haven't, and won't, give enough evidence to support any conclusion. That is all it means.

I don't see how you can say with a strait face that they will never give us enough evidence to know if it is a primarch, and this counts as evidence it is a primarch.

Riplikash, I fear you are being trolled now!

Castiel wrote:Riplikash, I fear you are being trolled now!

I fear you are overusing that stupid internet adjective, when clearly it is not my intent to Troll.


Either way, the conversation is going in circles. You can choose to believe what you want, and draw conclusions how you want. I'll do the same.

Sasori wrote:

Castiel wrote:Riplikash, I fear you are being trolled now!

I fear you are overusing that stupid internet adjective, when clearly it is not my intent to Troll.


Either way, the conversation is going in circles. You can choose to believe what you want, and draw conclusions how you want. I'll do the same.

First time I've ever used it, but as you appeared to be giong in circles it seemed fairly likely.

Castiel wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Castiel wrote:Riplikash, I fear you are being trolled now!

I fear you are overusing that stupid internet adjective, when clearly it is not my intent to Troll.


Either way, the conversation is going in circles. You can choose to believe what you want, and draw conclusions how you want. I'll do the same.

First time I've ever used it, but as you appeared to be giong in circles it seemed fairly likely.

No, it's not likely at all. I'm not going to waste my time debating something for the purposes "Trolling." I have better things to do with my time.

From Outcast Dead:

kronk wrote:From Outcast Dead:

Spoiler:

Could it be another Proto-Marine in Thunder Armor?

This is an idea that's been in my mind as well, but I wasn't sure if there woud have been any around for Trazyn to grab, but then noone knows how long he's been awake for, so it is certainly a possibility!

It's the Emperor. Why else do you think Chaos calls him the false emperor?

Magnus, Mortarion, Angron, and Fulgrim knew the Emperor personally and they still call the man on the throne the false emperor after all these years.

The guy they have on the throne is probably Malcador the Sigilite and not the Emperor himself.

It's probably why the Grey Knights don't enact the Terminus Decree. They know it's not really the Emperor.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:It's the Emperor. Why else do you think Chaos calls him the false emperor?

That sound like kind of fluff.
But if Trayzn is so powerful that he has the Emperor, then next are Chaos Gods, then Hive Mind, then Isha, then Etherials...

Roadkill Zombie wrote:It's the Emperor. Why else do you think Chaos calls him the false emperor?

Magnus, Mortarion, Angron, and Fulgrim knew the Emperor personally and they still call the man on the throne the false emperor after all these years.

The guy they have on the throne is probably Malcador the Sigilite and not the Emperor himself.

It's probably why the Grey Knights don't enact the Terminus Decree. They know it's not really the Emperor.

Yep, definitely. See, we know it is the emperor because they couldn't SAY it was the emperor, and that is proof. There is literally no reason why they wouldn't say otherwise.

And they obviously wanted us to think it was the emperor, because the fact that people thought that is PROOF that they wanted us to think it.

And that is our proof it wasn't a primarch too. There are 20 primarchs, why would he bother with some run of the mill primarch. No his other items are unique, so it must be another unique item, which means it absolutely HAS to be the emperor.

BrainDeleted wrote:

Sasori wrote:
For one, the White Scars captain was about Zahndrekh and Obyron. So that really has nothing to do with the Discussion about Trazyn's Collections.


And yes, it would need to be someone valuable for a mention in Trazyn's Collections.

Thanks, Mr. Obvious. Try reading what I the quote I was replying to before making comments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sasori wrote:I don't See how Braindeleted points stands at all, considering it's a specific circumstance involving Two completely different Necrons. They needed someone current for Zahndrekh and Obyrons story, as they more combat and war oriented, compared to Trazyn who is a preserver of histories.

Trazyn also referred to Guliman as "An Old friend" and said he would "Be better served in my company than yours" It's clear that Trazyn has the means to capture and hold Primarchs if he is going to make such a bold statement to captain Sicarus. His statement also implies that he was active during the time of Heresy. it's quite possible that he laid a trap for one of the Primarchs after the Hersey.

There is literately no reason why they wouldn't say something like "Among a slew of ancient and venerated chapter masters that adorn his collection" instead of the baroque line if it was something so simple. Chapter masters aren't special, and there would no reason to be vague about it

My point wasn't about Zahndrekh or Obyron. Someone said a Space Marine isn't worth mentioning in the Codex. I was proving that person wrong. Context???

Other than that, it's a very silly thing to say a Chapter Master isn't special or rare. There are only ~1000 in the Galaxy at anyone time. Compare with anything else, please? Especially one that won a great battle or one that was the last of his kind, i.e. last Chapter Master of the Swords of the Emperor or something random like that. Victor of the Battle of Thanitos or anything random like that. The Chapter Master that led his marines to chaos and would later cause a score of systems to fall? There are literally endless possibilities to make any one marine worthwhile to the looney.

Another thing to note, there are no other mentions of Marines in Trazyn's collection. But the passage talks at length about the Guard in his collection. So...He might, in fact, only have one marine in his entire display. Making which ever one worth mention and a special little one line.

Plenty of other people would have access to 'baroque' power armor, it simply means it's ancient and very ornate. Giant of a man...Any space marine fits that bill, even some Inquisitors like Hector Rex. Could just be a Grey Knight higher up. Both are still insanely rare on the grand scale. Primarches do as well, like I said. You can't discount any of these options in favor of the most impressive just because you want to believe in Trazyn's power. It's one line deliberately left vague so GW doesn't have to commit to anything come next codex. No reason to assume it isn't even just a Marine Trazyn dressed up in another famous marine's armor because he's a creep like that. Or even something more esoteric.

It's equally probable Trazyn said things like that to Sicarus because he's a creep and he likes to get into people's heads. 'Nah, nah, nah, I'm really old. I'm dissing your spiritual liege. Ooooh, whatcha gonna do bout it?'

I don't see how that disproved what I said earlier. I feel that that incident was used to give a bit of an insight into the personalities of Zandrekh and Obryon. And then also what reason is there to be elusive if it is merely a space marine in Trazyn's collection? Elusive fluff when it comes to GW tends to imply characters they don't want revealed. LIKE PRIMARCHS. And I did say that Constantin Valdor would also make sense, well anyone that GW has said that no one knows where they are would work.

Brother Coa wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:It's the Emperor. Why else do you think Chaos calls him the false emperor?

That sound like

Spoiler:

Matt Ward

kind of fluff.
But if Trayzn is so powerful that he has the Emperor, then next are Chaos Gods, then Hive Mind, then Isha, then Etherials...

These days all of the fluff of 40k sounds like Matt Ward style fluff to me. And why would he bother with a primarch when there are 20 of them?

And to be honest, this is one of those little tidbits they put in a book to spark endless debate and they will never tell us who it is. It's the kind of stuff they want us to make up on our own.

So I reject your reality and substitute my own. And my own says it's the Emperor.

Perhaps it's the last remaining member of the Forgotten, whom Trayzn remembers, or one of the... other legion who's 'name' I can't remember. Or it's Magnus' original armour. The 1k sons have been repeatedly been described as wearing baroque armor.
But Saying one way or the other I think is silly when there's enough different. things it could be. Once again, GW are mean and will never tell us one way or the other, and in fact probably thought it up as a bit of a way to get us all riled up.

One of the lost Primarchs maybe?

Its Horus lol

Horus is dead for sure.

Yeah, he was mind fried by the Emp, then had his body burnt by Abaddon.

Well... the 2 unknown primarchs are refered to as "the lost" and " the purged".

Maybe thats where "the lost" turned up.

So let's write down which Primarchs it definayely isn't.

Horus
Guilliman ( he is on Macragge)
Dorn (the IF have his remains)
Lion El'Johnson (asleep on the Rock)
Sanguinius
Mortarion (He is a Daemon Prince)
Angron (Daemon Prince)
Magnus the Red (DP)
Fulgrim (DP)
Perturabo( DP)
Kurze (Dead)
Lorgar (DP)


It could be
Vulkan
Jagathai Khan
Leman Russ
Corax

Deadshot wrote:So let's write down which Primarchs it definayely isn't.

Horus
Guilliman ( he is on Macragge)
Dorn (the IF have his remains)
Lion El'Johnson (asleep on the Rock)
Sanguinius
Mortarion (He is a Daemon Prince)
Angron (Daemon Prince)
Magnus the Red (DP)
Fulgrim (DP)
Perturabo( DP)
Kurze (Dead)
Lorgar (DP)


It could be
Vulkan
Jagathai Khan
Leman Russ
Corax

You forgot Alpharius and Omegon.

Where would they be though? They might be alive, dead, 1 of them dead or half and half.

Why not a CHAOS marine, or Primarch. Mortarion in the last throes of agony, or perhap's one of fabius Bile's creations? An astral claw perhaps, or even one of the fallen?

The real answer simply is, we don't know. The description isn't specific enough. It simply says, a giant of a MAN, not a giant of a marine. And Baroque armour simply is esoteric armour, which could be knight armour, so it might even be ward going back to roots and hinting it is sigmar.

Except sigmar is in the old world, not Terra/Earth

2 different places

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Except sigmar is in the old world, not Terra/Earth

2 different places

And a heck of a lot of crossover.

But really, I think we have a Custodes or Grey Knight. Giant of a man? Check. Baroque armour? Check. Rare Enough on a Galactic scale to warrant collecting? Check.

They tick all the boxes!

but, Doctadeth has a point, while it might not be sigmar it is possible it could be a great hero from history.

Think, which of the greatest ancient warriors of Earth were tall and wore baroque armour?

I don't know, but I know some probably have there Ideas...

@Matt

KING ARTHUR!!!

wasn't he a titch?

Doctadeth wrote:Why not a CHAOS marine, or Primarch. Mortarion in the last throes of agony, or perhap's one of fabius Bile's creations? An astral claw perhaps, or even one of the fallen?

The real answer simply is, we don't know. The description isn't specific enough. It simply says, a giant of a MAN, not a giant of a marine. And Baroque armour simply is esoteric armour, which could be knight armour, so it might even be ward going back to roots and hinting it is sigmar.

I don't think they would consider marines different species entirely from humans. Augmented yes.... but still the same basic build. Not to mention they fight for the Imperium of MAN. I think it is a primarch, why else would it be worthy to be a trophy?

DeffDred wrote:Well... the 2 unknown primarchs are refered to as "the lost" and " the purged".

Maybe thats where "the lost" turned up.

It makes sense. Maybe GW is holding him in reserve (Fluff wise) if they need to launch another SM varient codex.

Coolyo294 wrote:

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Handless dorn?

Nope, the IF have his remains encased in amber.

I believe that is no longer considered to be cannon.

I doubt its one of the lost primarchs, im pretty sure they were never found by the emperor but then again my memory sucks so I have no idea.

I would like for it to be Rowboat Girlyman just because I dislike him and the Ultramarines ( can I get an amen?!) but I think its more likely to be Khan or Vulkan.

Thatguy91 wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Handless dorn?

Nope, the IF have his remains encased in amber.

I believe that is no longer considered to be cannon.

Canon. 1 n.

I would like for it to be Rowboat Girlyman just because I dislike him and the Ultramarines ( can I get an amen?!)

Amen.

Deadshot wrote:
Canon. 1 n.

Isn't Dorn MIA according to new fluff? And that IF actually have his powerful but not his body?

I would like for it to be Rowboat Girlyman just because I dislike him and the Ultramarines ( can I get an amen?!)

Amen.

I believe the only parts of Dorn that have been recovered according to the new fluff is one of his hands, his armor and his weapons. So it cant be Dorn as he wasnt wearing his armor when we went mia.

I was pretty sure Dorn died where's this new fluff coming from?

Dorn's definitely dead, sources vary as to whether the Imperial Fists recovered his body (Ian Watson's Space Marine) or only his hands (Index Astartes).

Thatguy91 wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

Battle Brother Lucifer wrote:Handless dorn?

Nope, the IF have his remains encased in amber.

I would like for it to be Rowboat Girlyman just because I dislike him and the Ultramarines ( can I get an amen?!)

Jealosy is an ugly emotion

The space marine novel and its re-release are no longer considered canon, therefore Dorns body has never been recovered nor does he have a confirmed time and place of death. Only a skeletal hand, his armor and his weapons were found in a escape pod by the Imperial fists. He may very well still be alive, considering what the IW did to lysander they may have Dorn inprisoned somewhere to torture his mind and body. I doubt Perturabo would have his rival simply killed on the spot without a few millennia of agonizing torture.

It's not a Marine at all, the Orks have been getting more clever with there schemes. What I wouldn't give to see an Ork jump out of the armor screaming, "It's a trap!" Ackbar-esque.

I dislike him and the Ultramarines ( can I get an amen?!)

How original.

How many internet cool points is that worth these days?

Thatguy91 wrote:


I would like for it to be Rowboat Girlyman just because I dislike him and the Ultramarines ( can I get an amen?!)

I will also give you an amen, but that's only till that stupid piece of fluff saying that all marines wish to be Ultramarines is crushed under heel turned to dust to never be touched again.

King Pariah wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:


I would like for it to be Rowboat Girlyman just because I dislike him and the Ultramarines ( can I get an amen?!)

I will also give you an amen, but that's only till that stupid piece of fluff saying that all marines wish to be Ultramarines is crushed under heel turned to dust to never be touched again.

^ This. Me no Likey.

Also, @ CT GAMER

Im not sure, how many cool points is pointing it out worth?

Thatguy91 wrote:

Also, @ CT GAMER

Im not sure, how many cool points is pointing it out worth?

200, which finally gives me enough to buy an Ultramarines fanny pack. Thanks.

Damn. I want that fanny pack, right now I only have the Ultramarines keychain.

My pleasure. Hit me up if you need any extra. I have plenty of overused comments left.

He has to be a primarch. My guess is one of the lost two primarchs. I say this because of two things a) his description b) the fat that he remains nameless. There is a lot of dramatic irony within the 40k universe. If you look hard enough you can find the exact location of almost everyone even if they are considered lost among those within the universe itself, except those two elusive, cryptic bad boys.

Well after reading through all the pages, another possiblity of who the person is, has anyone though about Someone important from the Former Fire Hawks/Leigion of the Dammed Chapter, they appear when needed whos to say they didnt appear during a necron engagement and Tranzyn captured the one he liked the most.

It isn't the "Purged". Being purged he's almost certainly very, very dead.

Thatguy91 wrote:The space marine novel and its re-release are no longer considered canon, therefore Dorns body has never been recovered nor does he have a confirmed time and place of death. Only a skeletal hand, his armor and his weapons were found in a escape pod by the Imperial fists. He may very well still be alive, considering what the IW did to lysander they may have Dorn inprisoned somewhere to torture his mind and body. I doubt Perturabo would have his rival simply killed on the spot without a few millennia of agonizing torture.

I take it that's from one of the novels? The IA article makes no mention of escape pods, nor of Iron Warriors, for that matter.

Not sure where the info on Dorn is from, I cant remember where I have read it. Lysander's story with the Iron warriors is from the new SM codex.

that giant of a man being a primarch is plain wishful thinking, any space marine sergeant, captain or chpater master fits the that. could even by a grey knight... and if Trazyn fancies him, that guy could be Lord Inquisitor Hector Rex as he fits the "gaint of a man in baroque armor"..

Thatguy91 wrote:Not sure where the info on Dorn is from, I cant remember where I have read it. Lysander's story with the Iron warriors is from the new SM codex.

Unless you can source it, I find myself dubious as to its authenticity, it's definitely not in either of the only two accounts of Dorn's death I can think of, i.e. Index Astartes II and Fantasty Flight's First Founding.

English Assassin wrote:

Thatguy91 wrote:Not sure where the info on Dorn is from, I cant remember where I have read it. Lysander's story with the Iron warriors is from the new SM codex.

Unless you can source it, I find myself dubious as to its authenticity, it's definitely not in either of the only two accounts of Dorn's death I can think of, i.e. Index Astartes II and Fantasty Flight's First Founding.

Lysander's story only mentioned Fist of Dorn as wargear to be taken, not much else.
But I to remember on our Facebook group chat about new source for Dorn in some book. I can't remember what book was in question I do know that in that story IF found only his fist and nothing else. Dorn had disappeared and his fist was put into the Chapter's halls and names of various heroes from Chapter were engraved into it.

Wait, where in the dex does it say his prisoner is alive?

For all we no he could be dead

that or in tradition trazyn style, its just a normal marine in a primarchs armour

also, I don't think this has been mentioned, could it be honour guard?


EDIT: I've also read the lyslander story somewhere...
maybe in C: CSMs?
but it was probably C: SMs

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Wait, where in the dex does it say his prisoner is alive?

For all we no he could be dead

that or in tradition trazyn style, its just a normal marine in a primarchs armour

also, I don't think this has been mentioned, could it be honour guard?


EDIT: I've also read the lyslander story somewhere...
maybe in C: CSMs?
but it was probably C: SMs

Trazyn only uses replacements for his dioramas. His collection only contains the actual things he wants. He wouldn't fake a Primarch using a Space Marine.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Wait, where in the dex does it say his prisoner is alive?

For all we no he could be dead

I tried to point that out last time this terrible thread came up, nobody listened.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:EDIT: I've also read the lyslander story somewhere...
maybe in C: CSMs?
but it was probably C: SMs

It's not the Lysander story I'm concerned with, it's what sounds like somebody's fanfic rewrite of Dorn's death to include Iron Warriors and escape pods.

well hopefully they listen now!

As I said earlier I cant remember where I read it but I do remember it was quite recent. It could be some random fanboy fiction for all i know, cant remember unfortunately. What I do know is that the previous fluff on Dorns death is no longer considered canon and he is "presumed dead" which in 40k could mean anything or nothing really.

"However it has recently been revealed that Dorn and his veteran Space Marines stormed the Chaos ship and were cut down to a man. Later, the Imperial Fists would pick up an escape pod from one of their own ships, which contained the effects of the Primarch when he went onboard the ship and a single skeletal fist of the Primarch. Where the true Rogal Dorn or his body is and what his fate may have been, no one yet knows."

From 40k Wikipedia, source unknown.

Another possibility is that it could be one of the expunged primarchs, though if you threw up a poll I would have to say rowboat ghillieman, just because the idea is so damned funny.

There used to be a Space Wolf that was the size of Leman Russ himself, Ranulf, his name was if I'm not mistaken.. Maybe hes just a big ass marine.