I've known about livestock cruelty for a while now, but I'm at that age where I stop remaining ambivalent to issues, and I'm really disturbed. Hard to explain. I got a pamphlet from a girl in her twenties that I actually read front to back, and it's just inspired me to think differently about it. Chickens in particular are put through enormous hardship to end up on your dinner table,and unfortunately, chicken is my most favorite thing in the world.. I've done some research, and it would certainly be possible to live a vegetarian lifestyle, but I just can't bring myself to do it.
Honestly, I'm starting to think that buying 'cage free/free range' is probably a bolder statement than not eating it at all. We've been eating meat products for as long as we've stood upright, and I don't think it's natural to completely remove them from your diet. My mother buys free range chickens, organic vegetables, cage free eggs... The works. So right now, I'm not necessarily contributing to the problem. But when I leave home and don't have money to buy the organic stuff, I will be, so I've got a lot on my mind.
I'm a vegetarian actually, but mainly for taste reasons (meat is disgusting to me).
I agree on animal welfare though. I try to limit cruelty to other sentient animals with free range eggs/milk.
But it's not worth keeping up at night over.
I feel animal welfare is important. But i like the taste of meat. So i'm not a vegetarian but i do feel animal welfare is important. I tried being veggie for a while but i didn't like the substitute so i had to go back to meat.
Being serious though, I respect vegetarians, but I like bacon too much to ever be one! However, I do feel that livestock should be well treated. Its not fair to give tham a horrible life as well as killing and eating them.
People do know that 'Organic' is just a label farmers use to get more money per product right? When I was in my second year at university, my lecturer pointed out what a big con Organic food is. Its no different from ordinary farming. I've never and will never buy organic/free-range or whatever the Label of The Month is.
I don't think it really matters what happens. The animal is going to be killed anyway.
So many people do it. I can't believe they find this movie disturbing. I am an Australian Cowboy I Have skinned animals. I stopped caring after I first shot a deer.
Its necessary. Meat is good. Why not want to have the food. People can't eat like us why waste the food just means that food is going to get wasted somewhere.
Steak is good.
Pork is Good.
Lamb Chops are good.
Hot Dogs are good.
I stopped caring about what people say. I Have read The Jungle, The Night, and The Secret Fan. (all of which are horriblely disgustingly detailed.)
Sorry but the documentary just makes me angry that people want other people to know that the food they eat is from slaughtered lifestock? Hello this has been happening for hundreds of years. Stop caring about animals so much. Start caring for other human beings.
Animals are just like humans in emotions thats it. They aren't human so they won't be treated like humans. I refuse to treat anything that is not human like another human. I will not give animals freedoms because we are suppose to eat them....
If you weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made out of meat?
But in seriousness, I don't have an issue with eating meat, though I have taken to eating "meat replacements" as often as I eat actual meat. It is often cheaper (especially when it is on offer), and can be healthier in terms of fat content etc, depending on the cut of meat you compare it with, and how you cook it. Nothing to do with the living conditions of meat animals, though I would like to think that we are moving towards universally eliminating some of the more extreme animal raising practices.
I don't think it really matters what happens. The animal is going to be killed anyway.
I see that, I really do. These animals were more likely than not, entirely bred to be consumed. But that doesn't prevent me from pitying them. They're still deserving of respect, in my opinion. What's that Japanese Beef? Kobe? They give the cows wine and treat them like kings because they found that a relaxed, healthy cow is a good tasting cow. When you stress it out, feed it ground up cow parts and keep it in a pen with six inches to move around in, it tastes bad. If for no other reason than to make it taste better, cows and livestock should be treated properly.
Of course, I can see why people don't agree. "It's getting its skull smashed anyway, why should I care how it lives?"
They give the cows wine and treat them like kings because they found that a relaxed, healthy cow is a good tasting cow. When you stress it out, feed it ground up cow parts and keep it in a pen with six inches to move around in, it tastes bad.
Is there an actual, proper, scientific article that proves this? or is it personal opinion? Overcrowding is bad, but you can still farm normally without overcrowding.
Besides, that meat will probably be far too expensive to be worth bothering with. (much like organic in general)
As beef consumption became more prominent in society, farmers began hiring workers to massage the animals' backsides to improve meat quality. The mountainous topography of the islands of Japan resulted in small regions of isolated breeding, yielding herds that developed and maintained qualities in their meat that differ significantly from all other breeds of cattle. Herd isolation and distinctive feeding techniques, which resulted from the limited land availability, have led to distinguishing features that make the meat both superior in marbling and in the ratios of unsaturated versus saturated fats.
The japanese treat it as a delicacy, rather than a staple. If we had the same sort of fish oriented diet, we could too. But that's clearly out of the question.
As beef consumption became more prominent in society, farmers began hiring workers to massage the animals' backsides to improve meat quality. The mountainous topography of the islands of Japan resulted in small regions of isolated breeding, yielding herds that developed and maintained qualities in their meat that differ significantly from all other breeds of cattle. Herd isolation and distinctive feeding techniques, which resulted from the limited land availability, have led to distinguishing features that make the meat both superior in marbling and in the ratios of unsaturated versus saturated fats.
The japanese treat it as a delicacy, rather than a staple. If we had the same sort of fish oriented diet, we could too. But that's clearly out of the question.[/quote
Won't take lectures on animal cruelty from a nation that wholesale slaughters intelligent mammals.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzuSULcqgxQ You can hear them screaming in pain.
Animal welfare standards should be improved, yes. But eating meat is not immoral, and the kill itself only takes a few seconds (and I say that as a vegetarian).
Oh, I must have just totally made all that up, hurr durr, Because I'm clearly trying to mislead you with some made up story of happy, content cows.
There's a little section called references right there.
Your missing the point. You aren't posting great sources. Your citing News articles and Wikipedia pretty much only. Its difficult to form a proper opinion without backup from a scientific Journal. Surely if this meat is this good...there would be some form of Agricultural journal on it?
Also...£40 burgers? seriously? I'd throw the menu at the waiters face if he dared to actually charge that amount. Thats outrageous.
They give the cows wine and treat them like kings because they found that a relaxed, healthy cow is a good tasting cow. When you stress it out, feed it ground up cow parts and keep it in a pen with six inches to move around in, it tastes bad.
Is there an actual, proper, scientific article that proves this? or is it personal opinion? Overcrowding is bad, but you can still farm normally without overcrowding.
Besides, that meat will probably be far too expensive to be worth bothering with. (much like organic in general)
Its what they eat, cows are sometimes fed ground up cow parts and other artificial substances that affect the taste of the actual meat. Kobe beef is incredibly tender and delicious because of what they eat, compared to McDonald beef that comes from cows fed all sorts of unnatural things.
Its also why people don't like the taste of fish who are bottom feeders that eat refuse.
Its what they eat, cows are sometimes fed ground up cow parts and other artificial substances that affect the taste of the actual meat. Kobe beef is incredibly tender and delicious because of what they eat, compared to McDonald beef that comes from cows fed all sorts of unnatural things.
But is this actually provable scientifically? or is it just personal opinion shaped by our prior knowledge of animal living conditions that is causing us to think theres a difference? Can we get repeatable results?
I can't taste the difference between once piece of beef and another personally.
Mr Hyena wrote:People do know that 'Organic' is just a label farmers use to get more money per product right? When I was in my second year at university, my lecturer pointed out what a big con Organic food is. Its no different from ordinary farming. I've never and will never buy organic/free-range or whatever the Label of The Month is.
This might be true in the UK, but in the US, food has to meet some pretty specific standards to be considered organic. I wouldn't consider it a con at all in the US, and part of the reason organic food is more expensive in the US is because it's a lot more expensive to produce.
I am a vegetarian, and I really don't find it all that difficult.
I do object to people saying that meat is "necessary" though. We really don't have to eat it: I am perfectly healthy, and live an active lifestyle. I wouldn't dream of forcing others not to eat meat, but I prefer it if people concede that meat is not necessary and can be substituted with proper dietary planning.
The problem is the level of dietary planning you have to do to maintain a healthy vegan diet, while assuring that you get the right vitamins and minerals.
It feels very unnatural to a lot of people and isn't cheap. In this day and age; theres enough to be planned out. Simple food is often the best food.
Its what they eat, cows are sometimes fed ground up cow parts and other artificial substances that affect the taste of the actual meat. Kobe beef is incredibly tender and delicious because of what they eat, compared to McDonald beef that comes from cows fed all sorts of unnatural things.
But is this actually provable scientifically? or is it just personal opinion shaped by our prior knowledge of animal living conditions that is causing us to think theres a difference? Can we get repeatable results?
I can't taste the difference between once piece of beef and another personally.
EDIT: There we go, a Review, finally.
Reason you can't tell the difference is because you probably aren't eating different kinds of beef. As far as "free-range" is concerned, it usually means that they are eating fresher grasses compared to their own kind and antibiotics. How much exercise and diet affects the taste of an animal, veal comes from infant calves who are not permitted to exercise their legs.
Certain foods also change the smell/taste of your farts, urine, and sweat. This is all due to your body doing what it can with what it is given.
Meat itself as a necessity, it was. Back in the old times there were no such things as supplements and a lot of the foods we enjoy now are relatively new like peanut butter which is a godly food, but bad for you in high amounts. Peanut butter has a ton of proteins but also contains a lot of carbohydrates and fats that do damage in large quantities. Meats gave us proteins along with other matter that we can and do digest like amino acids. Meats also provide a lot of fats which is actually good for metabolism as the average fat molecule will create more cellular energy than a molecule of a carbohydrate, fats are also used to make certain hormones and the cellular membranes of your cells and organelles. Fat is necessary to the diet, just not too much of it .
Human beings are not ruminating animals which means we cannot digest cellulose found in many plants. We can eat fruits, veggies, and legumes, but not grasses. Our body is also good at digesting meats and while we were not designed to rip and tear meat we do have an appendix that is believed to have stored bacteria helpful in digesting raw meat. The biggest issue comes with what we make our meat with.
They give the cows wine and treat them like kings because they found that a relaxed, healthy cow is a good tasting cow. When you stress it out, feed it ground up cow parts and keep it in a pen with six inches to move around in, it tastes bad.
Is there an actual, proper, scientific article that proves this? or is it personal opinion? Overcrowding is bad, but you can still farm normally without overcrowding.
Besides, that meat will probably be far too expensive to be worth bothering with. (much like organic in general)
And that my good sir is called Cobe Beef, ridiculously over priced, tender and tasty as all heck and speaking as an ex cook not worth selling, damn idiot customers get hard for shew-leather steak )well done)
And yes there's a fair bit of stuff you can find on the interwebs about it, just search cobe beef (probably spelt it wrong but whatever)
Mr Hyena wrote:The problem is the level of dietary planning you have to do to maintain a healthy vegan diet, while assuring that you get the right vitamins and minerals.
It feels very unnatural to a lot of people and isn't cheap. In this day and age; theres enough to be planned out. Simple food is often the best food.
I dunno, it really doesn't feel complex... I just ensure that there's variety in my diet, and that I eat a lot of spinach.
Not too expensive, but I will admit I put a fair bit of time into cooking. The end result is often well worth the means though!
I stopped eating meat about a year ago after going to Nepal. The butcher shops there were about as sanitary as a men's room in a bar at around 11:30 on a Friday night. When I came back home, I just stopped eating it. I feel healthier now and a lot less sluggish.
I would like to say "survival of the fittest" and leave it at that. But its not always that simple is it?
Actually.... no. It is that simple. Survival of the fittest baby!
It doesn't bother me that we slaughter thousands of animals a day/week/month/whatever and then throw away what we dont eat. What bothers me is self righteous Vego/Vegan "Holier then thou" jerkwads that hand me a "Dont eat meat or your going to hell" pamphlet and then yell bloody murder at me for being a meat eating bastard beacause i look at the defeathered chickens hangin upside down and say "Hmm tasty". Did i provoke them by saying hmm tasty? Yes I almost certainly did. Should they have tried to cram their nonmeat stance down my throat like i cram chicken nuggets? No. Not they should not have.
Vegetarians are alright, vegans are a pain in the ass to cook for. Have you tried making tofurky taste good? Its nearly impossible without spending twenty or so bucks on the seasoning for it.
I'm personally cutting down on a lot of red meat because I'm trying to lose weight and not bulk up at the same time, veggie burgers are alright but I still love chicken and beef when I can.
Its what they eat, cows are sometimes fed ground up cow parts and other artificial substances that affect the taste of the actual meat. Kobe beef is incredibly tender and delicious because of what they eat, compared to McDonald beef that comes from cows fed all sorts of unnatural things.
But is this actually provable scientifically? or is it just personal opinion shaped by our prior knowledge of animal living conditions that is causing us to think theres a difference? Can we get repeatable results?
I can't taste the difference between once piece of beef and another personally.
EDIT: There we go, a Review, finally.
Reason you can't tell the difference is because you probably aren't eating different kinds of beef. As far as "free-range" is concerned, it usually means that they are eating fresher grasses compared to their own kind and antibiotics. How much exercise and diet affects the taste of an animal, veal comes from infant calves who are not permitted to exercise their legs.
Certain foods also change the smell/taste of your farts, urine, and sweat. This is all due to your body doing what it can with what it is given.
Meat itself as a necessity, it was. Back in the old times there were no such things as supplements and a lot of the foods we enjoy now are relatively new like peanut butter which is a godly food, but bad for you in high amounts. Peanut butter has a ton of proteins but also contains a lot of carbohydrates and fats that do damage in large quantities. Meats gave us proteins along with other matter that we can and do digest like amino acids. Meats also provide a lot of fats which is actually good for metabolism as the average fat molecule will create more cellular energy than a molecule of a carbohydrate, fats are also used to make certain hormones and the cellular membranes of your cells and organelles. Fat is necessary to the diet, just not too much of it .
Human beings are not ruminating animals which means we cannot digest cellulose found in many plants. We can eat fruits, veggies, and legumes, but not grasses. Our body is also good at digesting meats and while we were not designed to rip and tear meat we do have an appendix that is believed to have stored bacteria helpful in digesting raw meat. The biggest issue comes with what we make our meat with.
Thats fine and all, but personally I'm not going to eat supplements and never will. I'm not a freak. I'll eat a normal diet.
Vegetarians are alright, vegans are a pain in the ass to cook for. Have you tried making tofurky taste good? Its nearly impossible without spending twenty or so bucks on the seasoning for it.
This is the problem. Until no supplements to the food is required and until we get better vegan alternatives to meat that taste 100% like meat, while being as cheap as or cheaper than normal meat...then it can't really be considered a great lifestyle.
The best diet is still mainly veg/fruit, with a good helping of meat (split between White Meat, Fish/Seafood and Red Meat (for iron and fat)) and dark chocolate (in small amounts, very good for the heart.)
Vegans and vegetarians usually have to take supplements for certain vitamins. Especially females who don't like spinach, they need a lot of iron supplements.
Snrub wrote:I would like to say "survival of the fittest" and leave it at that. But its not always that simple is it?
Actually.... no. It is that simple. Survival of the fittest baby!
It doesn't bother me that we slaughter thousands of animals a day/week/month/whatever and then throw away what we dont eat. What bothers me is self righteous Vego/Vegan "Holier then thou" jerkwads that hand me a "Dont eat meat or your going to hell" pamphlet and then yell bloody murder at me for being a meat eating bastard beacause i look at the defeathered chickens hangin upside down and say "Hmm tasty".
Did i provoke them by saying hmm tasty? Yes I almost certainly did.
Should they have tried to cram their nonmeat stance down my throat like i cram chicken nuggets? No. Not they should not have.
“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”
It's increasingly looking like meat is economically/environmentally unsustainable. Just a head's up.
Meat is a luxury. Our society has made it far more cheap and plentiful than it was historically, but our bodies don't tend to stay very healthy when we eat too much of it, which is part of why we have the rates of heart disease and other nutritional issues we do. Of course more of it is just the general ton of sugars and saturated fats we eat, and eating too little veg.
I love meat, but I respect and appreciate folks who choose to go vegetarian. It's often very good for the body and it's certainly much more environmentally-friendly.
Assuming we continue as is, without meat, and we keep our nature reserves...then it will increase from 1/10th of the world's land to half once our population doubles.
The biggest effect is actually consumption patterns.
If we eat more vegetables...we'll need more land and we're limited for crop-producing land.
When we finally get Saline-resistant GM crop varities of our normal crops and allow farmers to grow them normally with no stupid overzealous laws, then maybe we can see this as an alternative.
Assuming we continue as is, without meat, and we keep our nature reserves...then it will increase from 1/10th of the world's land to half once our population doubles.
The biggest effect is actually consumption patterns.
If we eat more vegetables...we'll need more land and we're limited for crop-producing land.
When we finally get Saline-resistant GM crop varities of our normal crops and allow farmers to grow them normally with no stupid overzealous laws, then maybe we can see this as an alternative.
US livestock feed alone could feed 800 million people: http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug97/livestock.hrs.html Neither of the things you posted alter the fact that it's impossible for meat to be produced more efficiently than veg.
Obviously you can't draw a direct parallell between the two sources...people need to get their protein from somewhere, man does not live on carbs alone.
Several rare and unusual breeds are only maintained for agricultural purposes. If we didn't eat them they would go extinct. No really. Just an interesting perspective on the cruelty of eating animals.
I do eat meat, but I try to buy free-range. I know an animal has died to feed me, but I would like to think that it has had some quality of life. Chickens in particular, I will not buy eggs from battery housed chickens. I want an animal that has seen daylight. Furthermore, animals that are housed in cramped conditions have far more antibiotics and hormones pumped into them so that they can make it to your plate. Also down the cheaper end of the meat market they pump water into the meat to make it look bigger. This of course comes out when you cook and your meat seems a lot smaller as a result. I've also found that cheap bacon doesn't fry as easily because water collects in the pan preventing you browning it off.
There are other things like the method of slaughtering affecting the meat. Animals in a panic release adrenaline which causes lactic acid to build up in the meat which affects the flavour. Which is why some higher quality meat producers are fussy about keeping the animals all happy until they are stunned unexpectedly. I havent done a taste test to prove this to myself, but this is what I've seen done and it wasn't done purely for ethical reasons.
We chose to cut down on the volume of meat we ate to pay for buying better quality meat. So we have more vegetarian dishes. Partly this was recommended to help with my wife's hormonal problems, and we both think that she has shown signs of improvement. It's not a trend in our diets I'm going to reverse to find out if we can cause problems.
Oh and yes, meat production is a lot less energy efficient than just growing vegetables. You have the land use, the energy, water and the crops to feed them. The resources used to produce a single animal could produce a large volume of vegetables. What Mr Hyena says doesn't make sense, if we stopped meat production we wouldn't be short of food, we'd have an abundance as all resources were redirected into producing fruit and veg directly for humans. I think though that we'll always have meat, but currently there's rather too much meat consumption and a lot of pressures would be eased simply by cutting back on the meat industry by getting people to eat less meat. For example, people everywhere seem to eat meat every day of the week, people a few generations ago didn't do this. Western societies eat meat as a luxury not as a necessity, you really don't need much meat in a week.
Oh and yes, meat production is a lot less energy efficient than just growing vegetables. You have the land use, the energy, water and the crops to feed them. The resources used to produce a single animal could produce a large volume of vegetables. What Mr Hyena says doesn't make sense, if we stopped meat production we wouldn't be short of food, we'd have an abundance as all resources were redirected into producing fruit and veg directly for humans. I think though that we'll always have meat, but currently there's rather too much meat consumption and a lot of pressures would be eased simply by cutting back on the meat industry by getting people to eat less meat. For example, people everywhere seem to eat meat every day of the week, people a few generations ago didn't do this. Western societies eat meat as a luxury not as a necessity, you really don't need much meat in a week.
People are forgetting about arable land. Good quality crop growing land is quite limited. Animals aren't quite so fussy. Land that is bad for crops is usually good enough for animals.
Think of all the considerations required to grow crops: pH, Temperature, Climate conditions, Saline concentration etc. Then consider how our population is spiralling out of control. Our crops are notoriously specific. The real problem is not enough GMO work is being done.
But animals often need feed that is grown on prime agricultural land.
The problem with GM is that it's become very politicised and there's a strong anti movement in Europe that has undermined research, while in the US and parts of the East the technology has been developed more freely. We are being left behind when we should be among the world leaders.
I honestly care for animals that go through that sheise but theres nothing you can really do to stop it. I personally would prefer to eat the chicken that weren't harmed (range free chicken or something?) you just can't buy from purdue or tyson.
I guess the weak will always fall to the evil strong.
I consider myself a Carnitarian, every time I hear someone make a deal over animal cruelty or getting a vegan option I order extra dead animal. Bacon wrapped fillet, check, chicken cordon blue, check, turduckin, heck yeah.
Joking aside though I have to try really hard not to laugh at vegans. They always have such flawed and superfluous arguments as to why it's bad to eat animal products and they always come off with a holier than thou attitude.
I grew up on with cows in the pasture and chickens in the coop. I've been to turkey farms, dairy farms, etc around Missouri. I've seen them slaughter cows and I've killed my fair share of chicken. I've hunted deer (albeit I haven't killed one myself) and eaten the spoils.
I have not seen anything in anyplace I've been that makes me feel sorry for the way the animals are treated up unto the moment they are killed. Modern farms aren't the same barbaric institutions they were many years ago. They've figured out how to treat the animals as best as needed (as needed being key) to create a quality product. Free range/organic is an incredibly less effective method of farming and you can see the effects on prices. It isn't practical to feed our population with those methods. They don't make sense.
I'm too lazy to pull resources at the moment but there are studies that correlate.
And speaking of vegetables, don't get me started on corn. That should be capitalized I think... Corn. One of the stupidest crops to grow but due to the chemical conglomerates it's being put in everything. High fructose Corn syrup anyone? It's in everything... Or Corn based ethanol fuels even though celulosic ethanol is more efficient and doesn't cut into the food supply...
Oh you want organic crops? That label really doesn't mean anything. It says they used organic pesticides and organic chemicals on them which are less effective and just as dangerous. Remember, mother nature's made plenty of stuff that will kill you.... naturally.
I'm tired and hungry so this post is probably incoherent anyway, but the core of my argument against vegitarianism is bacon.
tl;dr Bacon is delicious. Burgers Smokehouse bacon. Applewood smoked, thick cut, with no added water. God I'm salivating. Try some of that and tell me you still want to be vegan.
martian_jo wrote:I consider myself a Carnitarian, every time I hear someone make a deal over animal cruelty or getting a vegan option I order extra dead animal. Bacon wrapped fillet, check, chicken cordon blue, check, turduckin, heck yeah.
Joking aside though I have to try really hard not to laugh at vegans. They always have such flawed and superfluous arguments as to why it's bad to eat animal products and they always come off with a holier than thou attitude.
I grew up on with cows in the pasture and chickens in the coop. I've been to turkey farms, dairy farms, etc around Missouri. I've seen them slaughter cows and I've killed my fair share of chicken. I've hunted deer (albeit I haven't killed one myself) and eaten the spoils.
I have not seen anything in anyplace I've been that makes me feel sorry for the way the animals are treated up unto the moment they are killed. Modern farms aren't the same barbaric institutions they were many years ago. They've figured out how to treat the animals as best as needed (as needed being key) to create a quality product. Free range/organic is an incredibly less effective method of farming and you can see the effects on prices. It isn't practical to feed our population with those methods. They don't make sense.
I'm too lazy to pull resources at the moment but there are studies that correlate.
And speaking of vegetables, don't get me started on corn. That should be capitalized I think... Corn. One of the stupidest crops to grow but due to the chemical conglomerates it's being put in everything. High fructose Corn syrup anyone? It's in everything... Or Corn based ethanol fuels even though celulosic ethanol is more efficient and doesn't cut into the food supply...
Oh you want organic crops? That label really doesn't mean anything. It says they used organic pesticides and organic chemicals on them which are less effective and just as dangerous. Remember, mother nature's made plenty of stuff that will kill you.... naturally.
I'm tired and hungry so this post is probably incoherent anyway, but the core of my argument against vegitarianism is bacon.
tl;dr Bacon is delicious. Burgers Smokehouse bacon. Applewood smoked, thick cut, with no added water. God I'm salivating. Try some of that and tell me you still want to be vegan.
I need to eat meat because its inefficient to get 200g of protein a day from vegetarian sources. Also you have to mix them because of the incomplete amino acid profiles, whereas with animal products you get complete sets. Its easy, fast, and good quality. Its hard to stay strong when you dont eat meat.
Could we increase grain/vegetable production by cutting down on animal production? Probably. Growing dedicated animal feed a pretty inefficient way to feed people in comparison.
HOWEVER...
Animals are a significantly better way for humans to get their protein, and there will always be land that is more efficient feeding free-range animals than struggling to raise crops. For example, much of the western reaches of the U.S. Great Plains don't have enough water for easy farming. On the other hand, there is enough water to grow plains grasses aplenty, which feed cattle effectivly enough. And I imagine that this is far from the only location where this is true.
In short: For most efficent food production, use farmable land for crops, use non-farmable land for animals. Then eat a healthy balance of both. (Yes, those of us in America eat WAY too much meat...)
Animals were put on the earth for human cunsumption. I dont agree how they are treated but people have to eat meat. Replacing solid meat with pills or other things isn't the same thing as actual meat.
Its up to you weather or not you want to eat meat. But once you have eaten and loved eating meat for years. Its very hard to just stop eating it
The only person who can pity a chicken is someone who has never been confronted to living chickens. These are some of the most vile and stupid creatures on earth and they only deserve hate and to be fried or roasted.
I've killed chickens and I've skinned rabbits. It was not funny, I didn't enjoyed it but I enjoyed the following meals, and see that as a necessity (it would have been so much more barbaric to eat them alive - and I don't talk about the taste-)
Human beings are omnivorous, we're made to consume both meat and vegetables, that's how evolution (or Nature, or God or whatever) made us (thus the canine teeth as aforementioned). So one of the most laughable thing IMO is a vegan claiming that eating meat is not natural, and that they don't eat meat in order to be closer to nature...
martian_jo wrote:It's in everything... Or Corn based ethanol fuels even though celulosic ethanol is more efficient and doesn't cut into the food supply...
Biolfuels are almost a dead loss IMO. Currently they are working on sources of biolfuels that will grow on waste land, but a lot of biofuel is generated from agricultural land. So we're effectively burning our food instead of eating it. The best bit is that to meet the demand for greater use for crops like corn there have cut down sections of rainforest. Which is counter productive obviously but lets some people feel good about themselves as they drive around in their bio-cars.
I am not vegetarian and doubt I really will ever be. I do care for animals but it would be very tough not being able to eat meat as it contains lots of nutrition (and it tastes good too )
Animals eat each other, they muder and kill each other and the human body is built to eat meat as well as fruit and veg. I don't see how it's wrong to kill and eat animals.
Howard A Treesong wrote:Several rare and unusual breeds are only maintained for agricultural purposes. If we didn't eat them they would go extinct. No really. Just an interesting perspective on the cruelty of eating animals.
Yeah, I've always thought deep on this. Cows, as we know them now, have no place in a modern ecosystem, and would most likely just be killed by some large predator and eventually be eradicated. Their gestation period is far too long, and they have no real means of defense... Same with chickens and pigs. Wild boars are pretty fierce animals, but their cousins the 'pig' isn't at all.
What's the closest thing to a wild cow? Oxen? I can't really think of anything that a cow resembles besides a cow
VanHammer wrote:I need to eat meat because its inefficient to get 200g of protein a day from vegetarian sources. Also you have to mix them because of the incomplete amino acid profiles, whereas with animal products you get complete sets. Its easy, fast, and good quality. Its hard to stay strong when you dont eat meat.
I tried getting all the protein I needed from food for a while, but you very soon get sick of exclusively eating beans, eggs and (vegetarian) sausages. It's very easy to do with protein shake, however, which is entirely vegetarian.
martian_jo wrote:I consider myself a Carnitarian, every time I hear someone make a deal over animal cruelty or getting a vegan option I order extra dead animal. Bacon wrapped fillet, check, chicken cordon blue, check, turduckin, heck yeah.
Joking aside though I have to try really hard not to laugh at vegans. They always have such flawed and superfluous arguments as to why it's bad to eat animal products and they always come off with a holier than thou attitude.
I grew up on with cows in the pasture and chickens in the coop. I've been to turkey farms, dairy farms, etc around Missouri. I've seen them slaughter cows and I've killed my fair share of chicken. I've hunted deer (albeit I haven't killed one myself) and eaten the spoils.
I have not seen anything in anyplace I've been that makes me feel sorry for the way the animals are treated up unto the moment they are killed. Modern farms aren't the same barbaric institutions they were many years ago. They've figured out how to treat the animals as best as needed (as needed being key) to create a quality product. Free range/organic is an incredibly less effective method of farming and you can see the effects on prices. It isn't practical to feed our population with those methods. They don't make sense.
I'm too lazy to pull resources at the moment but there are studies that correlate.
And speaking of vegetables, don't get me started on corn. That should be capitalized I think... Corn. One of the stupidest crops to grow but due to the chemical conglomerates it's being put in everything. High fructose Corn syrup anyone? It's in everything... Or Corn based ethanol fuels even though celulosic ethanol is more efficient and doesn't cut into the food supply...
Oh you want organic crops? That label really doesn't mean anything. It says they used organic pesticides and organic chemicals on them which are less effective and just as dangerous. Remember, mother nature's made plenty of stuff that will kill you.... naturally.
I'm tired and hungry so this post is probably incoherent anyway, but the core of my argument against vegitarianism is bacon.
tl;dr Bacon is delicious. Burgers Smokehouse bacon. Applewood smoked, thick cut, with no added water. God I'm salivating. Try some of that and tell me you still want to be vegan.
I have never met someone who regarded eating meat as "manly" who wasn't a sickly wisp of a man. All the big guys I know are pretty ambivalent.
Joey wrote:
I have never met someone who regarded eating meat as "manly" who wasn't a sickly wisp of a man. All the big guys I know are pretty ambivalent.
This is true mate, cos im hard as fething nails and I really don't have an opinion on vegetarianism.
I like the taste of meat so I eat it. I like the taste of onions and broccoli and carrots so I eat them too.
I really don't care about the social/green aspects of it enough to have an opinion.
We need a variety of foods in our diet to maximize health.
No we don't.
Eating a small amount of meat is not UNhealthy, but it's not healthy either. A vegetarian diet is actually, on average, marginally more healthy (though that's probably because people who eat meat tend to not eat as much fibre), but you can be perfectly healthy as a vegetarian.
Interestingly enough our closest reletives, chimps and bonobos, are almost entirely vegetarian except for the occasional insects/small mammal.
Joey wrote:A vegetarian diet is actually, on average, marginally more healthy
No it isn't. Vegetarians have more long-term deficiencies than those whom eat a balanced diet.
eh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism#Nutrition wrote:A 1999 metastudy combined data from five studies from western countries.[71] The metastudy reported mortality ratios, where lower numbers indicated fewer deaths, for fish eaters to be 0.82, vegetarians to be 0.84, occasional meat eaters to be 0.84.
A strong dose-response relationship was found between the amount of animal foods in the diet and the top causes of mortality in the West: heart disease, diabetes, and cancer.
British vegetarians have low mortality compared with the general population. Their death rates are similar to those of comparable non-vegetarians
I've never heard of any study suggesting "long-term deficiencies" in a vegetarian diet...
dogma wrote:Vegetarians are perfectly capable of eating a balanced diet, as there plenty of complete proteins that qualify as vegetarian (soybeans, quinoa, eggs).
I suppose that depends on how one defines vegetarianism. I'm probably thinking more of veganism.
It's depressing how many people don't actually know what vegetarianism is. I'm sick of telling people I'm vegetarian and having them ask me if I eat fish (no because I'm a vegetarian) eggs (yes because I'm not vegan) or milk (yes because i'm not a vegan).
Vegetarianism means you don't eat meat. It's that simple.
Joey wrote:It's depressing how many people don't actually know what vegetarianism is. I'm sick of telling people I'm vegetarian and having them ask me if I eat fish (no because I'm a vegetarian) eggs (yes because I'm not vegan) or milk (yes because i'm not a vegan).
Vegetarianism means you don't eat meat. It's that simple.
Some vegetarians do eat fish though, which I never understood. I guess they weren't proper vegetarians.
Joey wrote:It's depressing how many people don't actually know what vegetarianism is. I'm sick of telling people I'm vegetarian and having them ask me if I eat fish (no because I'm a vegetarian) eggs (yes because I'm not vegan) or milk (yes because i'm not a vegan).
Vegetarianism means you don't eat meat. It's that simple.
Some vegetarians do eat fish though, which I never understood. I guess they weren't proper vegetarians.
No, they're not. They're piscatarian. Fish is a meat, vegetarian means you don't eat meat.
Joey wrote:It's depressing how many people don't actually know what vegetarianism is. I'm sick of telling people I'm vegetarian and having them ask me if I eat fish (no because I'm a vegetarian) eggs (yes because I'm not vegan) or milk (yes because i'm not a vegan).
Vegetarianism means you don't eat meat. It's that simple.
Some vegetarians do eat fish though, which I never understood. I guess they weren't proper vegetarians.
No, they're not. They're piscatarian. Fish is a meat, vegetarian means you don't eat meat.
Piscatarian is my new word for they day! I always thought eating fish went against the fundamental point of being a vegetarian.
I have no problem with vegetarianism per se. I do have a problem with vegetarians who get up on their high horse and in my face about it but, thankfully, those are rare.
While I don't particularly like the way most livestock are treated, it doesn't bother me enough to stop me from eating them.
I'd have a hard time being vegetarian, anyway, as I am extremely allergic to tree nuts and peanuts, and less-severely allergic (in fact, I'd say mildly) to beans and lentils. Always been allergic to nuts, but the bean thing is relatively recent (that started five or so years ago), which is a bummer cuz I love Mexican food. Soybeans and peas are fine, though.
Seriously though I had some trouble with the whole vegie thing a few years ago and decided that the only way that I could justify eating meat is if I knew that I could "Kill it, Cook it, Eat it" myself.
To this end I went and bought an air rifle spoke with a nice local farmer and went shooting for rabbits. I found that not only was I able to pull the trigger but also that gutting, skinning and butchering that first kill made me appreciate what was on my plate a lot more.
I do still eat meat but when faced with a vegetarian who is on their high horse I feel as though I can happily stand my ground as if I had not been able to eat that rabbit I would have turned vegetarian almost instantly.
If your doing it for " Animal Welfare" than its the stupidest thing ever. Animals eat of animals, and we are pretty humane in the way we do it compared to others.
I mean, lions hunt in packs. Could you imagine how scary it would be getting chased around by a bunch of lions who were going to jump on you, and bite your face off.
Same with crocodiles. They trap they're prey in their jaws, and rip the prey around using thrashing to kill them, sounds pretty inhumane to me.
I could go on and on, but I wont. These things are alot worst than someone simply eletrocuting an animal and slitting its throat.
I like Meat way too much to turn into a vegetarians. I also love to hunt. It is enjoyable. I have some views on this subject but they will have to be censored due to moderation reasons.
JohnnoM wrote:If your doing it for " Animal Welfare" than its the stupidest thing ever. Animals eat of animals, and we are pretty humane in the way we do it compared to others..
That's a bad comparison. We are intelligent, aware, and flexible in our options of how to feed ourselves and treat other creatures, in a way which other animals simply are not.
Some of our ways of treating livestock are more humane than others.
I eat meat, I like meat.
I'm not bothered about a vegetarian lifestyle.
What bothers me is the evangelistic way some vegetarians preach at you.
If they come round for dinner they expect me to prepare something vegetarian for them, but if I go round to their place I'm not getting a steak for dinner.
marv335 wrote:I eat meat, I like meat.
I'm not bothered about a vegetarian lifestyle.
What bothers me is the evangelistic way some vegetarians preach at you.
If they come round for dinner they expect me to prepare something vegetarian for them, but if I go round to their place I'm not getting a steak for dinner.
Frankly you sound like a bad host.
In my experience friends usually fall over backwards to cater for me, as to do otherwise would be rude. And they wouldn't expect me to cook them something that would make me physically sick to do.
Having said that they can cook whatever they like if my parents have any meat lying around, or if they bring their own.
I wouldn't ask you to fry a turd, you can't expect a vegetarian to cook steak.
If your opinion is that you expect a host to bend over backwards to serve what their guest likes, then the position consistent with that is that you should go out of your way to get meat for meat-lovers.
I do think that marv was drawing a bit of a false equivalency, though. If I can and do eat and enjoy veggies, then it's not a particular hardship for me if my vegetarian host serves me a tasty non-meat dish.
Generally I've found that preparing meals that are vegetarian friendly is not a hassle as, while traditional main courses are largely off limits, traditional side dishes generally aren't and bear a strong resemblance to many vegetarian entrees and can easily be converted to that role with some simple ingredient substitution.
The real issue that I've had, both in terms of propriety and preparation, comes with vegans. Not only are many dishes not vegan friendly, but cooking in a vegan friendly manner is fairly unusual, and therefore difficult for most people.
It also doesn't help that, in my experience, vegans tend to be particularly preachy when it comes to their eating habits.
Vegetarians are fruit baskets, and a bunch of quacks that sleep to close to mother nature.
Ok Im mostly joking. I have found some vegetarian foods to be fantastic (nothing with tofu though, GAH that is gak) Infact I make a pretty mean grilled mushroom burger, and I have to admit, when I make it, I forget there is such a thing as beef
Properly seasoned and cooked tofu can be darn good too. My wife occasionally makes a nice miso soup. It can be nice in some asian dishes too, say, in a thai-style dish with onions and peppers.
dogma wrote:It also doesn't help that, in my experience, vegans tend to be particularly preachy when it comes to their eating habits.
Hence how funny the sequence with the Vegan ex is, in Scott Pilgrim vs. The World.
Mannahnin wrote:Properly seasoned and cooked tofu can be darn good too. My wife occasionally makes a nice miso soup. It can be nice in some asian dishes too, say, in a thai-style dish with onions and peppers.
dogma wrote:It also doesn't help that, in my experience, vegans tend to be particularly preachy when it comes to their eating habits.
Hence how funny the sequence with the Vegan ex is, in Scott Pilgrim vs. The World.
I like some sauteed tofu with ginger, soy sauce and toasted sesame seeds with stir fried bok choy.
Oh, combine equal parts soy sauce, fish sauce and oyster sauce for an awesome stir fry sauce. Just toss a Tablespoon or two of that with whatever you have in your wok and yumminess will ensue.
dogma wrote:Generally I've found that preparing meals that are vegetarian friendly is not a hassle as, while traditional main courses are largely off limits, traditional side dishes generally aren't and bear a strong resemblance to many vegetarian entrees and can easily be converted to that role with some simple ingredient substitution.
The real issue that I've had, both in terms of propriety and preparation, comes with vegans. Not only are many dishes not vegan friendly, but cooking in a vegan friendly manner is fairly unusual, and therefore difficult for most people.
It also doesn't help that, in my experience, vegans tend to be particularly preachy when it comes to their eating habits.
martian_jo wrote:It's in everything... Or Corn based ethanol fuels even though celulosic ethanol is more efficient and doesn't cut into the food supply...
Biolfuels are almost a dead loss IMO. Currently they are working on sources of biolfuels that will grow on waste land, but a lot of biofuel is generated from agricultural land. So we're effectively burning our food instead of eating it. The best bit is that to meet the demand for greater use for crops like corn there have cut down sections of rainforest. Which is counter productive obviously but lets some people feel good about themselves as they drive around in their bio-cars.
Why not just use the parts of the plants we don't eat for the biofuel?
Let's face it, the half-dozen ears of corn are what, 10% of a corn plant? Green beans aren't even that much? Okay, carrots and turnips don't have much loss - and there are always people that want the greens - but what about pumpkins and other squash? Grains? There's a lot of stuff leftover after you take out the parts that people can eat.
EDIT: Being a vegitarian is a choice. I respect your right to choose. I choose not to be a vegitarian. If you have a problem with this... it's your problem, not mine. Don't expect me to take kindly to you trying to take my right to choose away from me.
I think the problem about meat is not only that the animals have to suffer, but also that we dont have enough resources on our planet to feed cows with. It a fact that there is enough food for 12 billion, yet more than one billion people suffer from hunger. Thats because the corn is wasted on things like livestock and biofuel. From one acre of land you can feed either 20 people with corn or one fat dude with steak. WASTE!
I need help in how to convince more Filipinos to be vegetarian.
( Ignore the first part it is a rant)
Well first thing is it's an agarian nation but maybe not in the future stupid subdivision's taking up all the farmland.
I find it shocking on how much meat that's being eaten in this country (Philippines), I mean people just love porking up, It's also hard because of the weird fact that pork sometimes becomes cheaper thatn veggies.
I think vegetarianism is very good way to be healthy.
- Imagine all that meat rotting in you eeewww.
- Vegetables have fiber less chance of getting stuck-in
- Vegetables are more nutritious and don't carry harmful things in them.
- You don't have to live like a New Zealander where your'e population is outnumbered by plotting livestock.
RecutalThreat wrote:I need help in how to convince more Filipinos to be vegetarian.
( Ignore the first part it is a rant)
Well first thing is it's an agarian nation but maybe not in the future stupid subdivision's taking up all the farmland.
I find it shocking on how much meat that's being eaten in this country (Philippines), I mean people just love porking up, It's also hard because of the weird fact that pork sometimes becomes cheaper thatn veggies.
I think vegetarianism is very good way to be healthy.
- Imagine all that meat rotting in you eeewww.
- Vegetables have fiber less chance of getting stuck-in
- Vegetables are more nutritious and don't carry harmful things in them.
- You don't have to live like a New Zealander where your'e population is outnumbered by plotting livestock.
In conclusion eat more vegs and less meats.
And this is precisely what I dislike about the vocal minority of vegetarians.
Vegetarianism is the future.
Some of us, myself included might not like it, but its the future.
Not so long ago everyone 'knew' women should not be allowed to vote and blacks could not be citizens. Even forward thinking persons of their time. Didnt Jefferson write his treaties on human freedom from Monticello house where he kept his black slaves? Is this a criticism, no. Peoples mentality changes over the generations, and I see tomorrow being no different from today.
If yesteryears forward thinking men are todays bigots, could this be true now?
I think so. Food supply worldwide is getting difficult to support with our expanding population, health culture changes and numerous other factors you can probably work out for yourself.. However changes come from the top usually.
Womens lib had more to do with filling factories to allow men to fight in wars. Anti-slavery movements also had a root cause far removed from a minorities desire to be free.
So as meat becomes more expensive, as people realise you can feed more people on dairy land than beef land, and more still with arable land.
Frankly were it not for factory farming the move towards a vegatarian society weould already be starting.
Animal rights are all very well, but economic pressures will be the real driving force behind any change.
I would not be suprised if by 2050 eating beef will be as barbaric and backward as denying women the vote in victorian times, or having black slaves a hundred years before. Todays reasonable person is tomorrows bigot, then as probably now.
RecutalThreat wrote:
- Imagine all that meat rotting in you eeewww.
It isn't rotting, its being broken down into its constituents like amino acids, sugars, and fats just like vegetables which would also "rot" inside of you as well.
- Vegetables have fiber less chance of getting stuck-in
Vegetables are harder for the body to digest completely, in fact all of that "fiber" in vegetables is actually cellulose which many animals cannot digest let alone humans. Ruminating animals, like giraffes, can though.
- Vegetables are more nutritious and don't carry harmful things in them.
Ever hear of Ergot? What about Escherichia Coli?
- You don't have to live like a New Zealander where your'e population is outnumbered by plotting livestock.
The United States has a large livestock population, but we've managed to keep cows and sheep out of major cities. This isn't really for feeding people, but because of the amount of land available. One thing to also consider is that New Zealand's livestock is mainly sheep who produce not only meat, but wool! The amazing material used to make clothing and fancy hat linings.
In conclusion eat more vegs and less meats.
Whatever floats your boat, I know that I love eating meat but I won't knock off vegetarian options. I happen to like vegetables and veggie burgers are usually pretty tasty and less greasy compared to fast food places. However home-made burgers take priority in my opinion.
- Vegetables are more nutritious and don't carry harmful things in them.
Ever hear of Ergot? What about Escherichia Coli?
And bacillus cereus? And Salmonella?
Bacillus cereus can be contracted from rice, but salmonella is usually, normally passed through animals.
It's commonly passed through animals, but since it lives in the soil it can get into veggies as well. Also, since it's passed through animals and all that, you do know what a lot of places use to fertilize crops don't you? Trust me, salmonella is in vegetables. Hell, don't trust me.
A decent number of which are caused by eating someone else's poop. Hepatitis A, Shigella, Salmonella, E. Coli, Norovirus, our little friend cryptosporidium...
You can catch just as much bacterial and fungal diseases from vegetables as you can from animals, so thats not a good excuse really.
I would not be suprised if by 2050 eating beef will be as barbaric and backward as denying women the vote in victorian times, or having black slaves a hundred years before. Todays reasonable person is tomorrows bigot, then as probably now.
Shame that veggie and vegan dishes taste like gak though. So...good luck trying to force everyone to eat them.
Mr Hyena wrote:People do know that 'Organic' is just a label farmers use to get more money per product right? When I was in my second year at university, my lecturer pointed out what a big con Organic food is. Its no different from ordinary farming. I've never and will never buy organic/free-range or whatever the Label of The Month is.
I don't think it really matters what happens. The animal is going to be killed anyway.
Organic is different. I work with produce all day, believe me when I say you can taste and see a difference (also by the fact that it goes bad in half as much time). There are some issues such as in Australia where the only difference between free range and otherwise is a square foot of space or so. In essence, people will often do the minimum necessary to be able to sell more expensive product, but it doesn't mean that's always the case.
I would not be suprised if by 2050 eating beef will be as barbaric and backward as denying women the vote in victorian times, or having black slaves a hundred years before. Todays reasonable person is tomorrows bigot, then as probably now.
Shame that veggie and vegan dishes taste like gak though. So...good luck trying to force everyone to eat them.
Are you trying to make yourself look dumb? You have a habit of posting very broadly-worded and untrue things.
Subjectively, of course, what tastes good or bad to one person is true for that person. Of course, the idea that all vegetarian dishes taste bad is so absurd that expressing it in that manner comes off as trolling or an incredible level of ignorance.
Of course, nothing in his post even implied that anyone would be forced to eat them, so your comment wasn't even a reasonable response to his expressed thought.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Organic is different. I work with produce all day, believe me when I say you can taste and see a difference (also by the fact that it goes bad in half as much time).
The main difference between organic and not-organic food is that Organic food is typically harvested ripe (or nearly so) while not-organic food can be harvested earlier and allowed to ripen as it is transported. Which also accounts for the spoilage - not-organic foods are designed to have shelf life. A genetically modified tomato could be just as tasty as a non-GM tomato.
As an aside, I really wish people who advocate 'natural' farms hadn't misappropriated the word "organic."
halonachos wrote:Not washing your hands is murder, get with the program people. Those hand sanitizers shouldn't be the only thing you use either.
1) Washing your hands is murder. It's killing living organisms.
2) Using hand sanitizers is worse than simply washing with soap and water. I avoid buying "antibacterial" soap. Our overreliance on anti-bacterials is a problem.
We purposefully imprison free plants just so we can forcefully abort their young by ripping them from their parents just so we can rip up the little babies to cook and consume them.
Of course, nothing in his post even implied that anyone would be forced to eat them, so your comment wasn't even a reasonable response to his expressed thought.
You can't have slaves and you can't deny women the vote; so if this logic continues then you would be denied meat. So my assessment of his post is correct, unless he worded it terribly.
Of course, the idea that all vegetarian dishes taste bad is so absurd that expressing it in that manner comes off as trolling or an incredible level of ignorance.
You don't get the same taste of a meat and veg dish in a veg only dish. Thats very disgusting really.
I think people are free to eat whatever they choose within reason (cannibalism is a bit shaky).
If you want to only eat vegetables, go ahead, so long as you don't try and disuade me from enjoying a good bacon sarnie or start spouting pro-vegetarianism nonsense over the dinner table and try to make us all sick by describing how our meat is processed (I don't particularly care myself, but I would like to be able to keep my food down).
Just as long as everyone eats what they like to eat, i'm fine with it. If you want to make your carnivore/herbivore jokes/attacks/sermons, please do it in private.
Of course, nothing in his post even implied that anyone would be forced to eat them, so your comment wasn't even a reasonable response to his expressed thought.
You can't have slaves and you can't deny women the vote; so if this logic continues then you would be denied meat. So my assessment of his post is correct, unless he worded it terribly.
His choice of things to compare it to wasn't ideal, but he wasn't talking about a change in the laws, he was obviously and clearly talking about what's considered acceptable and normal by people. A few hundred years ago most people saw slavery as natural and normal. His thesis is that in the future people will change over to seeing meat-eating as inappropriate. I don't know if I agree, but he was clearly talking about changing social attitudes.
Mr Hyena wrote:
Of course, the idea that all vegetarian dishes taste bad is so absurd that expressing it in that manner comes off as trolling or an incredible level of ignorance.
You don't get the same taste of a meat and veg dish in a veg only dish. Thats very disgusting really.
You're joking, right? The fact that two dishes taste DIFFERENT makes one of them digusting by default?
His thesis is that in the future people will change over to seeing meat-eating as inappropriate. I don't know if I agree, but he was clearly talking about changing social attitudes.
Would you openly admit to doing a social taboo? How would you have, say, a dinner party with friends and serve it?
I don't think it'll be anywhere near that in the future.
You're joking, right? The fact that two dishes taste DIFFERENT makes one of them digusting by default?
I, and people like me, clearly like the taste of meat + veg. Veg only doesn't serve anywhere near the same purpose taste wise. It lacks a meat taste. Thats pretty much disgusting isn't it?
Like all lifestyle choices, I'm fine with vegetarians, as long as they don't try to ram it down my throat.
My idea of heaven is a fresh piece of Filet Mignon, flash fried for 10-15 seconds on each side in a smoking hot pan and served with a creamy blue cheese sauce and home made fries with onion rings...
If you don't like my choice of food, if it offends you in anyway at all, then please tell me. You are entitled to your opinion, as I am perfectly entitled to ignore you and tuck into my awesomely tasty piece of dead cow.
We have been eating meat since we learnt how too hunt. You really think Cro-Magnum man would have survived had they been vegetarians? No, they would not.
It's a fairly modern lifestyle choice, and good for you if you stick with it. But leave the immoral nonsense out of it. Humans are top of the food chain and need to eat meat. Thaw why we farm, grow and slaughter Pigs, Cows, Chickens, Lamb, Sheep, Ostrich, hell anything really!
biccat wrote:
As an aside, I really wish people who advocate 'natural' farms hadn't misappropriated the word "organic."
While the legal question has been settled, there is significant debate in the organic farming community over what is, and is not, organically farmed produce.
Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative. Even "natural" runs into the same problems that it always does when used to delineate.
His thesis is that in the future people will change over to seeing meat-eating as inappropriate. I don't know if I agree, but he was clearly talking about changing social attitudes.
Would you openly admit to doing a social taboo? How would you have, say, a dinner party with friends and serve it?
Depends on how strong the taboo is. There's a social taboo against smoking in many contexts, but people get together for parties to enjoy cigars.
Mr Hyena wrote:
You're joking, right? The fact that two dishes taste DIFFERENT makes one of them digusting by default?
I, and people like me, clearly like the taste of meat + veg. Veg only doesn't serve anywhere near the same purpose taste wise. It lacks a meat taste. Thats pretty much disgusting isn't it?
No, not by any english meaning of "disgusting". Do you require ice cream to include a meat taste, and find it disgusting if it doesn't?
"Different" =/= "Disgusting". Even if you don't enjoy veggie dishes as much, there's still a huge spectrum of degrees of enjoyment between "I love it" and "disgusting". I love a lot of meat dishes too, and I usually like a nice combination and balance of meat and veg. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a pure veggie dish, or a veggie and pasta dish. Or a veggie and cheese dish. There are certainly veggie options which share many culinary qualities with meat. Some veggies have a nice, substantial and fatty quality, like avacados. People often use mushrooms, beans, some different soy proteins (Tofu can actually be quite nice when treated right), or cheeses to give the fattiness or "substantial" qualities of meat. If you haven't tried them, and/or have never had them cooked well, maybe you're just unaware how good and satisfying they can be, even to people who love meat.
Mr Hyena wrote:So what do you choose your dishes based on?
Tastiness, nutrition, cost, convenience. Same things most conscious eaters do.
But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a pure veggie dish, or a veggie and pasta dish. Or a veggie and cheese dish. There are certainly veggie options which share many culinary qualities with meat. People often use mushrooms, beans, some different soy proteins (Tofu can actually be quite nice when treated right), or cheeses to give the fattiness or "substantial" qualities of meat. If you haven't tried them, and/or have never had them cooked well, maybe you're just unaware how good and satisfying they can be, even to people who love meat.
But it doesn't solve the problem. It just doesn't taste like meat.
I've never had a vege dish that tasted remotely like meat. Although you'd be hard pressed too tell the difference between Quorn and bog standard Mince Beef in a Chile...IF it's cooked properly.
Is meat something you need, or is it just something you like? It's clear that we don't need to eat meat. We've got the option and ability to eat other stuff and maintain health.
If you like one thing, and you like another, can you potentially replace one with the other? Yes, at least to some extent.
I wouldn't want to give up meat entirely, but I recognize that my diet would be healthier if I ate more veggies and reduced the amount of meat and bread a bit.
The idea that all dishes HAVE to taste like meat is silly and risible.
I never said that. But if I was after a nice meat dish, veg alone isn't going to solve that. Thats my point. A completely vegan/veggie diet isn't suitable for a massive part of the population.
Theres come a point with being concerned about personal health...and going beyond that just is not right. I would rather enjoy my life with good food, rather than extend my life so far that I'll be some really old guy who would be better off dead.
Although you'd be hard pressed too tell the difference between Quorn and bog standard Mince Beef in a Chile...IF it's cooked properly.
Quorn? You mean the processed fungi protein? tried it; never tasted something so fake before.
The idea that all dishes HAVE to taste like meat is silly and risible.
I never said that. But if I was after a nice meat dish, veg alone isn't going to solve that. Thats my point. A completely vegan/veggie diet isn't suitable for a massive part of the population.
Yes, you did. You said that dishes which don't taste like meat are "disgusting". Maybe you just need to choose your words better.
Vegan is a lot harder, and I'm not interested in doing that, personally. We're talking more about vegetarianism. Or even just about the capacity for people who enjoy meat to ALSO eat, or at least some of the time substitute, vegetarian dishes. Orlanth suggested that we can and will eventually move over to eating no meat, and you basically said that's impossible and disgusting. I don't necessarily agree with Orlanth, but I don't think it's impossible or disgusting, by any means. While I've never seriously tried going to a no-meat diet, my wife makes a killer guacamole/fresh avacado salad that, combined with some nice tortilla chips, makes a lovely and filling meal, and I've often had as a meal without needing meat to accompany it. I've also had and enjoyed veggie burgers and dishes in which portabello mushroom was the substantial center.
dogma wrote:Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative.
I'm sure we both recognize the same problem with "organic"/"natural": If food does not meet the standard of "organic", how would you describe it? It's certainly not "inorganic" (a term that does have a clear definition).
dogma wrote:Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative.
I'm sure we both recognize the same problem with "organic"/"natural": If food does not meet the standard of "organic", how would you describe it? It's certainly not "inorganic" (a term that does have a clear definition).
All foods have inorganic parts to them. But, that's okay, because you need inorganic substances in order to survive (water being a big one).
dogma wrote:Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative.
I'm sure we both recognize the same problem with "organic"/"natural": If food does not meet the standard of "organic", how would you describe it? It's certainly not "inorganic" (a term that does have a clear definition).
All foods have inorganic parts to them. But, that's okay, because you need inorganic substances in order to survive (water being a big one).
sarpedons-right-hand wrote:
I know this is probably asking for trouble, but if that's the case then why make 'Vegetarian Sausages' and 'Vegetarian Burgers'?
Just seems a waste of time to me.
Because burgers and sausages don't necessarily have to be made of meat, and some of those that aren't are quite good.
Where you run into trouble is with things like tofurkey, or tofu steaks.
I can fully imagine a 'Tofurkey' being truly foul. And Tofu steaks also. The problem I have with it all is if you're going to be a vegetarian then why eat things that masqurade as meat?
I mean, it's like non-alcoholic lager... It's just pointless. If you are not going to drink then just drink Coke or something. Don't drink something that is pretending to be something it clearly isn't. Disappointment awaits....
I've found that the primary market for vegetarian meat substitutes is people that are vegetarian for ethical reasons (They like meat, but not killing animals.) and people that live with people that like meat (I hate meat, but my dad loves, etc.).
Were I to go vegetarian, I wouldn't really bother with the meat substitutes. Nuts, grains and pulses give you plenty of protein and taste great, whereas I've really never had a meat substitute that I've enjoyed.
Also, Filet Mignon is a lady's steak! Get you a rib-eye, son!
Now, as far as why we eat meat goes, I'm pretty sure it's for all of the reasons we probably shouldn't eat as much meat as we do now. Back in the caveman days meat was a pretty handy way to get a lot of fat and protein out of a few ounces of food.
dogma wrote:Also, the use of the word organic use to annoy me, then I realized there is no viable alternative.
I'm sure we both recognize the same problem with "organic"/"natural": If food does not meet the standard of "organic", how would you describe it? It's certainly not "inorganic" (a term that does have a clear definition).
All foods have inorganic parts to them. But, that's okay, because you need inorganic substances in order to survive (water being a big one).
You can similarly find "organic salt" being advertised.
So, we've reduced the word "organic" from "compounds containing a C-H bond (plus a few other C compounds not containing a C-H bond)" to mean "anything a marketing executive feels like"?
My sister's gone vegetarian (but still eats milk and eggs) after growing up in a house with lots of meat. She says this vegan italian sausage is tasty, but I haven't tried it yet.
Monster Rain wrote:Also, Filet Mignon is a lady's steak! Get you a rib-eye, son!
It's OK if you call it "tenderloin". Filet is the only cut you can eat (and is best at) damn-near raw.
Ribeye is probably the best cut, IMO.
Grakmar wrote:So, we've reduced the word "organic" from "compounds containing a C-H bond (plus a few other C compounds not containing a C-H bond)" to mean "anything a marketing executive feels like"?
Well...yeah. That's the problem with labeling foods "organic." A similar problem arises when people use the term "chemicals" to refer to pesticides and other plant treatments.
I respect vegetarians, but Im a pure meat eater. Vegetable foods taste bland and never fill up your stomach. Meat on the other hand is the right opposite IMHO.
biccat wrote:It's OK if you call it "tenderloin". Filet is the only cut you can eat (and is best at) damn-near raw.
Reasons this cut of meat sucks.
A: No marbling, or at least not very much. This is where most of the juiciness and flavor of the steak comes from.
B: No connective tissue. Another huge source of flavor that is absent from the Filet. Tougher meat, when cooked properly, always tastes better. Extreme cases are cuts such as short ribs and oxtails, that require cooking for long stretches of time, but taste better than any steak at the end.
Yes, Filet is tender. Yes, you don't have to cook it much, but for god's sake man it's just not as delicious as a steak should be!
biccat wrote:Ribeye is probably the best cut, IMO.
Indeed. Marbling and enough connective tissue to add flavor and just a bit of chewiness... I want one right now.
I'm a member of PETA (People Eating Tasty Animals).
There was a "nutritionist" on local telly the other day, crapping on about how x food was full of nasty horrible chemicals, but hippy-grown "organic" produce was full of nothing but nutrients.
Newsflash, Hippy. Chemicals is chemicals. Natural or artifical, the only difference is purity.
Cyanide is a naturally occurring chemical.
So are Arsenic, lead, and LSD.
"Natural" does not automatically mean "good".
We also have landscape suppliers selling "Organic" sand.
If it's organic, it's "Humous" not sand. Sand is a mineral conglomerate.
However, I do feel that livestock should be well treated. Its not fair to give tham a horrible life as well as killing and eating them.
