What is the best Assaulty Army in 40k? I would say GK or Daemons, but what about you?

Woo. Tau are the best in hand to hand. Cuz they have giant mecha robot suits. Woo.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Woo. Tau are the best in hand to hand. Cuz they have giant mecha robot suits. Woo.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, ah good one

Guard.
Ogryns can and will crush avatars and land raiders alike.

Daemons all the way

Grey Knights for real. Rad nades, psychotroke nades, the cleansing flame thiny. 2 wound termies. So much assualty pack into a codex.

Grey Knights. MEQ's with access to obnoxious toys like psycho & rad grenades, winning flame, super cheap I6 upgrades, wound allocation palladin deathstars, hammerhand and the list goes on...
An assaulty GK list will have the upper hand against any opposition simply because, the codex has answers for anything & everything your opponent can throw at you.


Daemons are nowhere near the game's best assaulty army because;
a) you *must* deep strike in, hence your 'uber assaulters get to sit around and get shot before they can act.
b) 5th ed's 'uber mech enviroment has killed the really scary units like 'crushers & 'letters. Daemons are forced to spam small squads of horrors to get enough bolts onto the table to deal with all the cheap vehicles every army seems to love.
c) Slaanesh has no power weapon and only slaanesh units, flesh hounds & princes are 'good' assaulters (due to faster movement/charge).

Daemons look scary on paper, but overall you can pretty much guess any competitive daemon will feature, fateweaver + min sized horror squads + fiends + 2-3 princes. Maybe a unit of wound allocation 'crushers, but they're just so damn slow!

I say orks.........With a BS of 2, it's hard NOT to assault everything in sight...

In fluff it's probably the Tyranids or Orks, in gameplay Blood Angels/SW/MEQ

Experiment 626 wrote:Grey Knights. MEQ's with access to obnoxious toys like psycho & rad grenades, winning flame, super cheap I6 upgrades, wound allocation palladin deathstars, hammerhand and the list goes on...
An assaulty GK list will have the upper hand against any opposition simply because, the codex has answers for anything & everything your opponent can throw at you.


Daemons are nowhere near the game's best assaulty army because;
a) you *must* deep strike in, hence your 'uber assaulters get to sit around and get shot before they can act.
b) 5th ed's 'uber mech enviroment has killed the really scary units like 'crushers & 'letters. Daemons are forced to spam small squads of horrors to get enough bolts onto the table to deal with all the cheap vehicles every army seems to love.
c) Slaanesh has no power weapon and only slaanesh units, flesh hounds & princes are 'good' assaulters (due to faster movement/charge).

Daemons look scary on paper, but overall you can pretty much guess any competitive daemon will feature, fateweaver + min sized horror squads + fiends + 2-3 princes. Maybe a unit of wound allocation 'crushers, but they're just so damn slow!

You forgot assault grenades for termies. No other termies have that when assaulting into cover.

bombboy1252 wrote:I say orks.........With a BS of 2, it's hard NOT to assault everything in sight...

Y'know, he's on to something....

As I'm a 'Cron player, my army shoots everything in sight. The one army I have trouble against is a Khorne based CSM list.

You think tyranids would be best since that's what they depend on to win.

Yeah, but alot of armies are also assault dependant and they have writers that don't suck

Orks. My little brother destroys me in assault with the black reach orks I have.

I can see Orks doing well, but won't LRs and Termies do well against the Black Reach orks

BT. Its hard to contend with 14 LRC's each with 15 marines that run TOWARDS you. Plus the Marines have re-rolls, Assault Terminators with FC/TH

Can't BA take more land raiders? And is there any way at all to use 14 outside of apocalypse?

Dark Eldar, hands down. Wyches outperform any other unit in melee, point for point; a soultrap/huskblade archon butchers the nastiest Tyranid MCs; incubi cut through MEQ like so much paper; the archon court can lay down dozens of S5 attacks each round of assault; everything either starts with or can easily gain FnP and FC...

i dont really know, excluding the marine varients (because i havent really played agaisnt any) id go for Dark elder or nids o.o, i dont really have many problems keeping vanillia marines and orks away from my front lines o.o

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Dark Eldar, hands down. Wyches outperform any other unit in melee, point for point; a soultrap/huskblade archon butchers the nastiest Tyranid MCs; incubi cut through MEQ like so much paper; the archon court can lay down dozens of S5 attacks each round of assault; everything either starts with or can easily gain FnP and FC...

My paladins and twc say otherwise.

Yeah, paladins and their "STOP, Hammer Time!" power are possibly the best assault troops in the game

Space Wolves are up there. I wouldn't call them the best but they can crank out a whackload of attacks on the charge. What stops them from being #1 in Assault is Long Fangs. They're so damn good it's hard to take Land Raiders over them.

I voted GK on their ability to fight everything well. Flame for hordes, force weapons for MCs, brain mines for badass ICs, great nade spam.

Who voted for Tau??!!

The Crusader wrote:Who voted for Tau??!!

I would think those looking for this exact response.

Brain mines seem good, but a little underwhelming to me. They get an I test, so those usually aren't hard to pass, with them having 4+ generally

i said grey knights

a 100pts strike squad can realistically kill a squad of carnifexes without taking a wound

best anti tank assult guy ever is the dread knight

give it 2 hammers and the teleporty thingy and you are looking at a ton of str 10 2 D6 amour pens that auto hit

100 pt GKSS is not taking out a squad of carnifexes:
11 Attacks on the charge. 2/3 Hit (22/3). 1/6 Wound. (22/18 wounds). So a little over 1 wound on Carnifexes. You then need to pass your Ld9 Psy test and hope there's no Shadows around. Hyperbole.

give it 2 hammers and the teleporty thingy and you are looking at a ton of str 10 2 D6 amour pens that auto hit

why would it auto hit? If the tank moved the turn before you'd still need to roll to hit I thought. 4+ for combat speed 6+ for faster. On alot of the rear armor AV 10, you auto pen though even on a roll of 1. + 1 for D6 MC at minimum, you'd auto pen AV 11 rear armor. (very high chance to pen just about anything else really too)

With Thunder hammer, you automatically get crew shaken too.

With a mix of halberds and hammers you could probably take out a squad

Blood Angels or Grey Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Crusader wrote:Who voted for Tau??!!

Brother Coa wrote:

The Crusader wrote:Who voted for Tau??!!

Spoiler:

Tau Fans

Don't be silly, those are just legends

...Tau have more than chaos marines...

GK by a mile: Purifiers are an idiotproof win button.

Hoardes? Cleansing flame.
Multiwound models? Force weapons.
High Initiative models? Halberds.
Tough models? Hammerhand.


That's before you factor in the grenades.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:GK by a mile: Purifiers are an idiotproof win button.

Hoardes? Cleansing flame.
Multiwound models? Force weapons.
High Initiative models? Halberds.
Tough models? Hammerhand.


That's before you factor in the grenades.

Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Just three of these guys, cost equivalent to a normal marine, can attack 12 times on the charge. Even more for the more expensive GK. Imagine a mob of 100. They actually have those with a formation in IA.

im2randomghgh wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:GK by a mile: Purifiers are an idiotproof win button.

Hoardes? Cleansing flame.
Multiwound models? Force weapons.
High Initiative models? Halberds.
Tough models? Hammerhand.


That's before you factor in the grenades.

Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Just three of these guys, cost equivalent to a normal marine, can attack 12 times on the charge. Even more for the more expensive GK. Imagine a mob of 100. They actually have those with a formation in IA.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaand...Cleansing Flame.

DK are terrible and not even close to the best anti tank lol

im2randomghgh wrote:
Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Just three of these guys, cost equivalent to a normal marine, can attack 12 times on the charge. Even more for the more expensive GK. Imagine a mob of 100. They actually have those with a formation in IA.

Blood Angels - they have Assault Marines instead of Tacticals.
That's a lot of Assault Marines...

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Just three of these guys, cost equivalent to a normal marine, can attack 12 times on the charge. Even more for the more expensive GK. Imagine a mob of 100. They actually have those with a formation in IA.

Blood Angels - they have Assault Marines instead of Tacticals.
That's a lot of Assault Marines...

One Assault marine equals 3 ork boyz, there are going to be more orkz than marines no doubt and orks hit harder than marines

TheAngrySquig wrote:Brain mines seem good, but a little underwhelming to me. They get an I test, so those usually aren't hard to pass, with them having 4+ generally

Read up on Psyk-out grenades(reduce a psyker to i1). Granted it's situational, but the Psyk-out-Brain Mine combo was one of the nastiest nullifications I've ever seen to Mephiston's 250 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Can't BA take more land raiders? And is there any way at all to use 14 outside of apocalypse?

They tie under core rules. BA can't take HS LRs, and BT can't take FA LRs, they can each fill out the rest of the FOC with LRs.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:GK by a mile: Purifiers are an idiotproof win button.

Hoardes? Cleansing flame.
Multiwound models? Force weapons.
High Initiative models? Halberds.
Tough models? Hammerhand.


That's before you factor in the grenades.

Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Just three of these guys, cost equivalent to a normal marine, can attack 12 times on the charge. Even more for the more expensive GK. Imagine a mob of 100. They actually have those with a formation in IA.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaand...Cleansing Flame.

...Will do nothing to even the battle.

If the person thinks purifiers are instant win theyre on something.. They're glass canons. Purifiers are better for shooting and pickin weakened squads to assault. Paladins are better even if charged by other things with psy out grenades then purifiers. To really decide who is the best you have to describe the scenario in which theyre the best, best for their value, etc. Youre instant win buttons without a hammer cant even kill a basic dread let alone a furioso.

Draigo wrote:If the person thinks purifiers are instant win theyre on something.. They're glass canons. Purifiers are better for shooting and pickin weakened squads to assault. Paladins are better even if charged by other things with psy out grenades then purifiers. To really decide who is the best you have to describe the scenario in which theyre the best, best for their value, etc. Youre instant win buttons without a hammer cant even kill a basic dread let alone a furioso.

Purifiers, or any space marines, are not glass cannons. If your comparison is a fraking walker then I'd hate to see what you consider a tough unit.

I'm just going to be biased and say BLACK TEMPLARS!

@ Draigo- Whaaaaa? How are you comparing purifiers to furiosos? Next up: GK terminators suck because they can't Id Nurgle bikers or perhaps trygons can go shove it because they can die to high st low ap guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And wow, sorry for the rant, 2:00 in the morning and I just got in from a taco bell run, not the best combo for my civility

I think we can all agree blood talons are the shizzle and that blendernaught is at least one of the best CC units in the game.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:
GK by a mile: Purifiers are an idiotproof win button.

Hoardes? Cleansing flame.
Multiwound models? Force weapons.
High Initiative models? Halberds.
Tough models? Hammerhand.


That's before you factor in the grenades.


Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Ork Boyz.

Just three of these guys, cost equivalent to a normal marine, can attack 12 times on the charge. Even more for the more expensive GK. Imagine a mob of 100. They actually have those with a formation in IA.


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaand...Cleansing Flame.


...Will do nothing to even the battle.

Ok, so lets say we have one purifier (you shot the hell out of his squad before you charged), who makes his psychic test, against 100 orks. Thats ~50 dead orks.

More realistically, you have 5 purifiers up against 20 Boyz (your mob got shot up moving downfield). Orks just busted up the purifier's rhino. Purifiers charge, 7 orks down due to flame, purifiers attack w/ 3 attacks per. 5 more orks die. 7 orks attack (in fact, lets say they get their charge attacks as well) 4 attacks per. 2 Purifiers down (bad saves). Nob attacks, 2 Purifiers down. Orks lose combat by 8. They run, get run down.

If they had 11 Boyz left (magic!) they would take ~6 fearless wounds. Next round of combat its 1 Nob, 4 Boyz vs 1 Purifier. Purifier takes 2 down w/ flame. 1 w/ his attacks. Nob cleans up. Orks cheat, but win.

You still spend 155p to kill 120.

Yea the math was a bit hokey, but you get the point. Purifiers destroy orks point for point. The more orks you add, the less efficient they are against flame.

But that's in vacuum, with one pitted directly against another. Not representative of whose actually better on the battlefield. 20 wounds vs 5 wounds is always a consideration one would have to make.

Blood Angels.

The fact that I've destroyed a full Ork Boyz mob with Blood Talons makes it awesome. Plus LR as Dedicated Transport, Assault Squads as Troops, being able to field 11 Dreadnoughts in a list and DC will prove me right.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:Blood Angels.

The fact that I've destroyed a full Ork Boyz mob with Blood Talons makes it awesome. Plus LR as Dedicated Transport, Assault Squads as Troops, being able to field 11 Dreadnoughts in a list and DC will prove me right.

how you get 11? Thought max was 6?

3 Furioso Dreadnoughts (Elites), 5 Death Company Dreadnoughts(Troops) and 3 Regular HS Dreadnoughts.

Seeee my point purifiers arent as good as furioso at assaulting hence why purifiers arent insta win in cc. You all proved my point to the thread.

Yeah, but Furiosos are also cc oriented dreadnoughts so I would say yes they are better then the infantry unit

Viersche wrote:I'm just going to be biased and say BLACK TEMPLARS!

I love my Templars, so much more than my GK army, but they would slaughter us a close range/assault setup.

Depends on if you are looking at HQ's, Troops, Elites or the whole dex.

CSM, SW, BA, Nids and Orks are all EXTREMELY assaultly. While GK can be, their numbers largely hinder their ability to own in this category.

I'd say a Logan deathstar, Abaddon deathstar, or Ghaz deathstar wins.

Oh... and orks can field 11 walkers too...

Yeah, but the walkers are generally worse, so BA win the walker catagory

TheAngrySquig wrote:Yeah, but the walkers are generally worse, so BA win the walker catagory

Quantity>Quality

With that much of their army immune to small arms, their 1500pt army is going to be fighting about 1000pts of yours.

Blood Angels, because Furioso Dreadnaught, Assult Marines and Death Company

I'd like to say Dark Eldar, with their lightning-fast destructive ability, but I think Daemons can (and will) surpass them. I have no experience with GK, however, but I believe that seeing as they are primed to defeat Daemons they would probably come out on top. So, in other words:

#1 = Grey Knights
#2 = Chaos Daemons
#3 = Dark Eldar

Although I haven't had enough experience with these armies to back up my theory.

I'd stick behind Nids probably being the best assault units by miles. You can tailor a nid assault army for any occasion.

I'd also say not to underestimate daemons. Get a Bloodthirster with some crushers running around. Whilst if we're just talking about units.. Drago from GK's plus paladins has to win.. maybe abaddon+Kharn/typhus+terminators would be a close second.

Trondheim wrote:Blood Angels, because Furioso Dreadnaught, Assult Marines and Death Company

This man is our Messiah!

Death company!!! (including the dreads lol)

im2randomghgh wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Yeah, but the walkers are generally worse, so BA win the walker catagory

Quantity>Quality

With that much of their army immune to small arms, their 1500pt army is going to be fighting about 1000pts of yours.

But 1000 can take out that 1500, so Quality>Quantity

TheAngrySquig wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:Yeah, but the walkers are generally worse, so BA win the walker catagory

Quantity>Quality

With that much of their army immune to small arms, their 1500pt army is going to be fighting about 1000pts of yours.

But 1000 can take out that 1500, so Quality>Quantity

Except it can't because I outnumber them 4:1 or more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Where else go you find WS10?

Avatar of Khaine...?

And I vote GK in reality, but Daemons in my heart... *sniff*

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Avatar of Khaine...?

And I vote GK in reality, but Daemons in my heart... *sniff*

Avatar of Khaine counts as a daemon

True, but hes in the Eldar codex :p

Besides Kharn mocks the WS chart, he might aswell be WS 99, smacking your Blood Thirster on 2+

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:True, but hes in the Eldar codex :p

Besides Kharn mocks the WS chart, he might aswell be WS 99, smacking your Blood Thirster on 2+

He can still be eaten for breakfast before even getting the chance to attack against An'ggrath, so don't mock daemons there is just about nothing that can beat him in CC.

I play Daemons alot, so I know how nasty they all are :p and An'ggrath is our titan equivilent so ofc Kharn has no chance!

And I did see Anggrath get dragged down by Ghazkull and 30 MANZ in an apoc game, was hilarious to watch.

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:I play Daemons alot, so I know how nasty they all are :p and An'ggrath is our titan equivilent so ofc Kharn has no chance!

And I did see Anggrath get dragged down by Ghazkull and 30 MANZ in an apoc game, was hilarious to watch.

30 Nobz?

If it's boyz then he was just rolling like gak.

If it's nobz, there was probably a 50/50 chance to be had.

And we have actual titans we can use so...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well vs Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are aburd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

"When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow" wtf does that even mean? The only unit that's a threat from BA is the DC dread, and you're not even arguing it, but I'll point it out for you so that you can.

If you had read the entire thread you would have seen a well done post about what a couple Purifiers do to a bunch of Orks.

GK>Daemons>BA>Orks is how I see the chain right now with daemons on the same foot as BA except when fighting gk

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

"When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow" wtf does that even mean? The only unit that's a threat from BA is the DC dread, and you're not even arguing it, but I'll point it out for you so that you can.

If you had read the entire thread you would have seen a well done post about what a couple Purifiers do to a bunch of Orks.

You'll also see that orks still win. In my orks troop section i can fit 180 boyz and 6 nobz, how about you?

And that means if fnp PA 4 attacks on the charge models outnumber you, you're fething dead.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

"When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow" wtf does that even mean? The only unit that's a threat from BA is the DC dread, and you're not even arguing it, but I'll point it out for you so that you can.

If you had read the entire thread you would have seen a well done post about what a couple Purifiers do to a bunch of Orks.

You'll also see that orks still win. In my orks troop section i can fit 180 boyz and 6 nobz, how about you?

And that means if fnp PA 4 attacks on the charge models outnumber you, you're fething dead.

FNP and PA mean nothing to GK, they ALL have force weapons and most of them will attack first even with your FC.

Sekminara wrote:Ok, so lets say we have one purifier (you shot the hell out of his squad before you charged), who makes his psychic test, against 100 orks. Thats ~50 dead orks.

More realistically, you have 5 purifiers up against 20 Boyz (your mob got shot up moving downfield). Orks just busted up the purifier's rhino. Purifiers charge, 7 orks down due to flame, purifiers attack w/ 3 attacks per. 5 more orks die. 7 orks attack (in fact, lets say they get their charge attacks as well) 4 attacks per. 2 Purifiers down (bad saves). Nob attacks, 2 Purifiers down. Orks lose combat by 8. They run, get run down.

If they had 11 Boyz left (magic!) they would take ~6 fearless wounds. Next round of combat its 1 Nob, 4 Boyz vs 1 Purifier. Purifier takes 2 down w/ flame. 1 w/ his attacks. Nob cleans up. Orks cheat, but win. He's just making a hypothetical here

You still spend 155p to kill 120.

Yea the math was a bit hokey, but you get the point. Purifiers destroy orks point for point. The more orks you add, the less efficient they are against flame.
But that's in vacuum, with one pitted directly against another. Not representative of whose actually better on the battlefield. 20 wounds vs 5 wounds is always a consideration one would have to make.

You still need help with your reading skills my friend, but I reposted it and highlighted and explained the part that gave you trouble. The more you spam troops, the harder you will lose vs GK. Most people that play GK pay the Crowe Tax and will have a lot of Purifiers. I'm not even going to elaborate more on what Sekminara said because he already said it very well.

10 feel no pain 2 wound paladins with force weapons that don't require a psychic test (brotherhood banner anyone?) Completely diversified for endless shenanigans, and packing 4 psycannons to soften up targets before they strike. Can't think of much that could withstand that tbh. My vote is for grey knights as the premier assault army. Your 30 boyz are worthless when shooting cuts that number in half, and a flurry of higher initiative power weapon attacks hit home. Same goes for gaunts/gants/gargs/guard blobs.

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And daemons will beat just about anyone in CC, except GK.

Daemons>Orks/BA

GK>Daemons

Orks/BA>GK

Yea because Orks do sooooooooo well Purifiers, lol, and BA FNP does sooooooooo well against armies of i6 models with power weapons. I don't even currently play my GK army(I play my BT army because I'm a dumbass), but as the rules are written right now they are absurd when built as an assault army with the combat is taking place in the >24 inch range as we as discussing in this thread.

When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow. GK aren't nearly as good as most people seem to think, I have seen them tabled by both orks and BA, and have tabled them with both my tau, and my DE.

Purifiers abilities just don't stack up against the four or five or more orks you get for each. 5 orks on the charge is 20 attacks. 20 attacks by ANY model in the game could probably kill a purifier.

"When the blood angels outnumber you, and are in assault, you fethed up somehow" wtf does that even mean? The only unit that's a threat from BA is the DC dread, and you're not even arguing it, but I'll point it out for you so that you can.

If you had read the entire thread you would have seen a well done post about what a couple Purifiers do to a bunch of Orks.

You'll also see that orks still win. In my orks troop section i can fit 180 boyz and 6 nobz, how about you?

And that means if fnp PA 4 attacks on the charge models outnumber you, you're fething dead.

FNP and PA mean nothing to GK, they ALL have force weapons and most of them will attack first even with your FC.

Sekminara wrote:Ok, so lets say we have one purifier (you shot the hell out of his squad before you charged), who makes his psychic test, against 100 orks. Thats ~50 dead orks.

More realistically, you have 5 purifiers up against 20 Boyz (your mob got shot up moving downfield). Orks just busted up the purifier's rhino. Purifiers charge, 7 orks down due to flame, purifiers attack w/ 3 attacks per. 5 more orks die. 7 orks attack (in fact, lets say they get their charge attacks as well) 4 attacks per. 2 Purifiers down (bad saves). Nob attacks, 2 Purifiers down. Orks lose combat by 8. They run, get run down.

If they had 11 Boyz left (magic!) they would take ~6 fearless wounds. Next round of combat its 1 Nob, 4 Boyz vs 1 Purifier. Purifier takes 2 down w/ flame. 1 w/ his attacks. Nob cleans up. Orks cheat, but win. He's just making a hypothetical here

You still spend 155p to kill 120.

Yea the math was a bit hokey, but you get the point. Purifiers destroy orks point for point. The more orks you add, the less efficient they are against flame.
But that's in vacuum, with one pitted directly against another. Not representative of whose actually better on the battlefield. 20 wounds vs 5 wounds is always a consideration one would have to make.

You still need help with your reading skills my friend, but I reposted it and highlighted and explained the part that gave you trouble. The more you spam troops, the harder you will lose vs GK. Most people that play GK pay the Crowe Tax and will have a lot of Purifiers. I'm not even going to elaborate more on what Sekminara said because he already said it very well.

And you're missing the part where in this scenario the orks aren't charging, or shooting. If the twenty orks and nob get the charge, after shooting, you can bet those purifiers gak themselves something mighty.

20 pistol shots and 80 attacks +nob=

im2randomghgh wrote:


20 pistol shots and 80 attacks +nob=

You're missing the part where this is a vacuum style discussion.

Comparing Ork shooting to GK.....lol(both sides get shots if one does and for the sake of an ASSAULT discussion there is no shooting) You don't get all those attacks.Psychicpowers, then initiative order, where the Orks are last.

Trolling or you have a mental defficiency, in either case I don't continue discussions with such a person

Movac wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:


20 pistol shots and 80 attacks +nob=

You're missing the part where this is a vacuum style discussion.

Comparing Ork shooting to GK.....lol(both sides get shots if one does and for the sake of an ASSAULT discussion there is no shooting) You don't get all those attacks.Psychicpowers, then initiative order, where the Orks are last.

Trolling or you have a mental defficiency, in either case I don't continue discussions with such a person

Whatever.

Even with initiative order, orks charging=orks winning.

Just saying, A Ghaz deathstar will kill every single unit in the entire GK codex x50

The assault also depends on squad sizes. Most dont run a full 10 purifiers squad. If you ran a 5 squad say like some of the razorback spam lists the 5 would stand no chance to a 30 boyz squad unless the ork player roller terribly. As to the shooting well I have yet to play an ork without a mek with a kff sooo shooting doesnt always work out so well espeacially last game when he made 25 out of 30 saves so still had 25 orks chargin in..

Draigo wrote:The assault also depends on squad sizes. Most dont run a full 10 purifiers squad. If you ran a 5 squad say like some of the razorback spam lists the 5 would stand no chance to a 30 boyz squad unless the ork player roller terribly. As to the shooting well I have yet to play an ork without a mek with a kff sooo shooting doesnt always work out so well espeacially last game when he made 25 out of 30 saves so still had 25 orks chargin in..

This.

Plus, when you get a shooty ork list, their dakka can outshoot most armies, excepting maybe DE, Tau and IG.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Draigo wrote:The assault also depends on squad sizes. Most dont run a full 10 purifiers squad. If you ran a 5 squad say like some of the razorback spam lists the 5 would stand no chance to a 30 boyz squad unless the ork player roller terribly. As to the shooting well I have yet to play an ork without a mek with a kff sooo shooting doesnt always work out so well espeacially last game when he made 25 out of 30 saves so still had 25 orks chargin in..

This.

Plus, when you get a shooty ork list, their dakka can outshoot most armies, excepting maybe DE, Tau and IG.

Or arguably necrons.

Anyways this is an assault thread.

5 purifiers, vs 30 orks, orks get charge (for all the good that will do) Purifiers get off cleansing flame, 15 orks get hit by it, 13 die. Purifiers get 10 attacks, 5 hit, 2.5 wound/kill (round to 2). 14 boyz and a nob remain. Orks swing. assuming shoota boyz since not many people take 30 man sluggas. 42 attacks 22 hit, 11 wound, just under 4 dead GKs, nob finishes them off. Luckily orks win combat by default, if even a single GK is left alive, that is 11 fearless wounds on 6+ armor. That being said that 30 man mob doesn't really have an assault left in it except against some weak unit, and just got mauled by a unit that was about half of its cost.

If you are going to compare units in assault, you need to have equivalent points, and stop moving goalposts. "But but but you can't kill a ghaz deathstar in CC, but you can't kill x unit with y unit because of z blah blah blah."

Best assault army is daemons, because they don't have a choice. Not because they are good. Next best assault army is nids. See daemons for reason why. BA is kinda an assaulty army, but honestly they aren't reliant on assault, and the assault marine isn't all that scary. GKs are similar to BA, but better in many ways and worse in others (better weapons, worse mobility). DE have probably the scariest combo of assault units (wyches, incubi, beastpacks covers the tarpit, marine killer, and speedy multi assault roles), but too many reason to run the shooting units. Orks are assault because they don't have shooting strong as PKs. CSM are mostly just vanilla with the good rules taken out, bad rules put in, and the price increased for dubious increase in CC ability.

I'll settle this once and for all.

I'm hosting a tournament in a month. The grand prize is one hundred million US dollars. All registrants get $1000 to build the army of their choice, with any codex they want. The only rule is said list has to be what other players at the tournament would consider an assault list.

All you have to do to register is reply with which codex you intend to use.

That should do it.

notabot187 wrote:Best assault army is daemons, because they don't have a choice. Not because they are good. Next best assault army is nids. See daemons for reason why. BA is kinda an assaulty army, but honestly they aren't reliant on assault, and the assault marine isn't all that scary. GKs are similar to BA, but better in many ways and worse in others (better weapons, worse mobility). DE have probably the scariest combo of assault units (wyches, incubi, beastpacks covers the tarpit, marine killer, and speedy multi assault roles), but too many reason to run the shooting units. Orks are assault because they don't have shooting strong as PKs. CSM are mostly just vanilla with the good rules taken out, bad rules put in, and the price increased for dubious increase in CC ability.

I dont think this logic really holds. Something isn't the best just because it can't do anything else, look at Tau, they are awful in assault, but have great shooting, still they don't have the best shooting

Tzeentch daemons, they have the element of surprise, noone suspects them until its too late.

Xeriapt wrote:Tzeentch daemons, they have the element of surprise, noone suspects them until its too late.

Dark Eldar have that category locked down with Sliscus alone. Deep Strike 20+ dark lances, kill ALL the things

Orks.

Yes, Ork boyz get beaten up by Purifiers. Well. . . kinda. 5 purifiers against 30 boyz with nob is just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks), and looking at the math it's a pretty even fight; basically, whoever gets the charge has a significantly better than even chance of winning. No matter who wins, the other side takes pretty serious casualties

Think about that. The basic ork troop can fight GK Elites, and hold them to a draw. If a 30-man Ork squad gets their face wrecked in CC and is cut down to ten or twelve models. . . oh well. They get on an objective; they slide in behind a charging Nobz squad and add another PK+30 attacks to an assault; they're still an effective unit. If a 5-man Purifier squad gets beat up against an Ork unit, even if they win they're down to one or two models, and are basically hors de combat from that point on.

Furthermore, there isn't any other infantry assault unit in the game as devastating to hordes as Purifiers. If Ork Boyz can fight Purifers, the one unit above all that is specifically DESIGNED to wreck their gak, on a nearly-even basis, that's just more evidence that they shred anything that ISN'T quite so brutal. And they certainly do; BA assault squads, any variant of Terminators, Grey Hunters, whatever it is, match up any infantry you care to name against equal points of Ork Boyz and it dies. Hard. Same goes for most characters and Elite units, for that matter. And that isn't even considering that they get a surprising amount of dakka for their points. The only real downside to Ork Boyz is that they take up a lot of space on the table, and they take a long time to move.

And we haven't even talked about Nobz. Nobz are the most vicious, unit-massacring assault unit around. Even without giving them BCs or PKs, every single one of them throws down 5 S5 attacks on the charge; hell, most Codexes have to use HQs or Special Characters to do that kind of damage! And, of course, they're easy to diversify for WA shenanigans, and you can pack the squad chock-full of BCs and PKs to ensure that you can bring the pain down on anything that catches your eye. They've got FNP with a Painboy; they've got WS 5 with a Waagh! Banner; they've got a hilariously long assault range if you bring Ghazghkull, and there's no reason NOT to bring Ghazghkull because he's also one of the best CC characters in the game. Then there's MANZ, who aren't the most flexible assault unit or the most effective in all situations, but three or four in a trukk make an excellent, cheap cruise missile with a whole lotta S9 PK attacks.

The whole Ork Codex is designed around this idea; mass numbers and hundreds of attacks that can pound through any unit, no matter how tough, especially in assault. And it's really, really good at it.

Black Templars: army wide Preferred enemy for ALL enemy units, Furious Charge Terminators, Initiates with close combat weapons for free, Blessed hull LRC's. Pack 24 LC termies into a LRC's with blessed hull, roll em' onto the opponent's doorstep and unleash the motherf*****g fury! Plus BT run forward when they take casualties instead of backward and are fearless in close combat. Finally, take twenty man Crusader Squads (ten initiates, ten neophytes) and you'll have units that can shred up large Ork boy squads without much hassle.

TheAngrySquig wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Best assault army is daemons, because they don't have a choice. Not because they are good. Next best assault army is nids. See daemons for reason why. BA is kinda an assaulty army, but honestly they aren't reliant on assault, and the assault marine isn't all that scary. GKs are similar to BA, but better in many ways and worse in others (better weapons, worse mobility). DE have probably the scariest combo of assault units (wyches, incubi, beastpacks covers the tarpit, marine killer, and speedy multi assault roles), but too many reason to run the shooting units. Orks are assault because they don't have shooting strong as PKs. CSM are mostly just vanilla with the good rules taken out, bad rules put in, and the price increased for dubious increase in CC ability.

I dont think this logic really holds. Something isn't the best just because it can't do anything else, look at Tau, they are awful in assault, but have great shooting, still they don't have the best shooting

It is a sad day when my tau, who can only shoot and do nothing else, can be outshot by IG AND assaulted by them

Banzaimash wrote:Black Templars: army wide Preferred enemy for ALL enemy units, Furious Charge Terminators, Initiates with close combat weapons for free, Blessed hull LRC's. Pack 24 LC termies into a LRC's with blessed hull, roll em' onto the opponent's doorstep and unleash the motherf*****g fury! Plus BT run forward when they take casualties instead of backward and are fearless in close combat. Finally, take twenty man Crusader Squads (ten initiates, ten neophytes) and you'll have units that can shred up large Ork boy squads without much hassle.

It's definitely not Black Templars. Their Assault Terminators are the best, but everything else used for assault in that 'dex pretty much blows compared to other dedicated assault units.

It arguably should be Black Templars, but we'll just have to see what the future holds. Unfortunately, if rumors are true, what the future holds is orks in power armor.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Orks.

Yes, Ork boyz get beaten up by Purifiers. Well. . . kinda. 5 purifiers against 30 boyz with nob is just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks), and looking at the math it's a pretty even fight; basically, whoever gets the charge has a significantly better than even chance of winning. No matter who wins, the other side takes pretty serious casualties

Think about that. The basic ork troop can fight GK Elites, and hold them to a draw. If a 30-man Ork squad gets their face wrecked in CC and is cut down to ten or twelve models. . . oh well. They get on an objective; they slide in behind a charging Nobz squad and add another PK+30 attacks to an assault; they're still an effective unit. If a 5-man Purifier squad gets beat up against an Ork unit, even if they win they're down to one or two models, and are basically hors de combat from that point on.

Furthermore, there isn't any other infantry assault unit in the game as devastating to hordes as Purifiers. If Ork Boyz can fight Purifers, the one unit above all that is specifically DESIGNED to wreck their gak, on a nearly-even basis, that's just more evidence that they shred anything that ISN'T quite so brutal. And they certainly do; BA assault squads, any variant of Terminators, Grey Hunters, whatever it is, match up any infantry you care to name against equal points of Ork Boyz and it dies. Hard. Same goes for most characters and Elite units, for that matter. And that isn't even considering that they get a surprising amount of dakka for their points. The only real downside to Ork Boyz is that they take up a lot of space on the table, and they take a long time to move.

And we haven't even talked about Nobz. Nobz are the most vicious, unit-massacring assault unit around. Even without giving them BCs or PKs, every single one of them throws down 5 S5 attacks on the charge; hell, most Codexes have to use HQs or Special Characters to do that kind of damage! And, of course, they're easy to diversify for WA shenanigans, and you can pack the squad chock-full of BCs and PKs to ensure that you can bring the pain down on anything that catches your eye. They've got FNP with a Painboy; they've got WS 5 with a Waagh! Banner; they've got a hilariously long assault range if you bring Ghazghkull, and there's no reason NOT to bring Ghazghkull because he's also one of the best CC characters in the game. Then there's MANZ, who aren't the most flexible assault unit or the most effective in all situations, but three or four in a trukk make an excellent, cheap cruise missile with a whole lotta S9 PK attacks.

The whole Ork Codex is designed around this idea; mass numbers and hundreds of attacks that can pound through any unit, no matter how tough, especially in assault. And it's really, really good at it.

5 purifers cost nearly as much as ork boyz mob 30 strong? What are you smoking? Last I checked even purifers aren't even close to 43 points per model. Maybe if you gave then an assault cannon razorback with upgraded ammo it might be close to the same cost. Put the units at equal cost and then compare. I think that is 8 purifiers if my math is right. 13 dead orks from flames, 4 dead from force weapons. 12 regular orks strike back, 36 attacks. 3 dead GKs, PK kills 2 more, 5 dead GKs. 3 remain, you lost combat by 12, take fearless saves, you fail 10. Remaining squad size is 3 including nob. If GKs do slightly better than average then you are not looking at taking fearless saves, you are looking at getting run down by sweeping advance.

Also how awesome those nobs are the just suck when faced with force weapons striking before they do (can't use wound wrapping to stop that btw) and definately don't like facing down thunder hammers. Also with DE wyches I've tied up nobs and weakened them before. PKs don't like facing 4++ models that only cost 10-12 points. Hell I've killed nob units with multi charging wyche units.

As for how good anti horde purifiers are, I would say that an even better unit for clearing hordes are DE beast packs. A full beast pack of 6 razorwings, 5 masters, 10 kmeria (or however you spell them) costs less than 300 points, has 45 wounds, and so many rending and decent strength attacks that even the biggest baddest ork mob is going be severly mauled if not completely destroyed in one turn of combat.

Seaward wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:Black Templars: army wide Preferred enemy for ALL enemy units, Furious Charge Terminators, Initiates with close combat weapons for free, Blessed hull LRC's. Pack 24 LC termies into a LRC's with blessed hull, roll em' onto the opponent's doorstep and unleash the motherf*****g fury! Plus BT run forward when they take casualties instead of backward and are fearless in close combat. Finally, take twenty man Crusader Squads (ten initiates, ten neophytes) and you'll have units that can shred up large Ork boy squads without much hassle.

It's definitely not Black Templars. Their Assault Terminators are the best, but everything else used for assault in that 'dex pretty much blows compared to other dedicated assault units.

It arguably should be Black Templars, but we'll just have to see what the future holds. Unfortunately, if rumors are true, what the future holds is orks in power armor.

We shoot much better than we stab. BT melee units cost much more than they're worth.

notabot187 wrote:
5 purifers cost nearly as much as ork boyz mob 30 strong? What are you smoking? Last I checked even purifers aren't even close to 43 points per model. Maybe if you gave then an assault cannon razorback with upgraded ammo it might be close to the same cost. Put the units at equal cost and then compare. I think that is 8 purifiers if my math is right. 13 dead orks from flames, 4 dead from force weapons. 12 regular orks strike back, 36 attacks. 3 dead GKs, PK kills 2 more, 5 dead GKs. 3 remain, you lost combat by 12, take fearless saves, you fail 10. Remaining squad size is 3 including nob. If GKs do slightly better than average then you are not looking at taking fearless saves, you are looking at getting run down by sweeping advance.

Also how awesome those nobs are the just suck when faced with force weapons striking before they do (can't use wound wrapping to stop that btw) and definately don't like facing down thunder hammers. Also with DE wyches I've tied up nobs and weakened them before. PKs don't like facing 4++ models that only cost 10-12 points. Hell I've killed nob units with multi charging wyche units.

As for how good anti horde purifiers are, I would say that an even better unit for clearing hordes are DE beast packs. A full beast pack of 6 razorwings, 5 masters, 10 kmeria (or however you spell them) costs less than 300 points, has 45 wounds, and so many rending and decent strength attacks that even the biggest baddest ork mob is going be severly mauled if not completely destroyed in one turn of combat.

Ah, my apologies. I wasn't aware you were running completely naked Purifers. You are, of course, correct; if you decide not to use any of the special weapons or options, then you get more models.

Assuming, however, that you're actually running an EFFECTIVE Purifier squadron which can do something, anything, BESIDES barely win combat against hordes, or want unit complexity for wound allocation, your cost will be just a bit higher. 190 points or so is not unreasonable for a 5-man Purifer squad. . . which is, as it happens, nearly as much as 30 Ork Boyz with a PK Nob. Or, as I said before, 'just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks).'

As I also said, the fact that Ork Boyz, the quintessential horde unit, cannot outfight a unit DESIGNED to be an anti-horde beatstick. . . is a no-brainer. The fact that they do as well as they do is far more important; it demonstrates that they can do significant damage even to a unit that's supposed to be their hard counter.

As to Nobz; yes, it's true that Nobz can't kill absolutely anything ever. If they could, no-one would take anything else. Against force weapons striking before them, yes, Nobz will suffer. Of course, everything suffers against that. Against Thunder Hammers? Mmm. . . not so much. Try running the mathhammer for a tooled-up Nobz squad against Assault Terminators, equal point value. The Nobz hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+ or a 2+; the shoota/choppa and BC Nobz will kill a few before the Termies get to strike, weather the ID attacks with the help of their 5++ and win the combat anyway once the PKs hit. Against Wyches? Sure, you can tarpit them for a bit, but they put out enough attacks at a high enough Strength that it takes a LOT of Wyches to kill them. If they get the charge they'll shred Wyches or basically any other DE unit like tissue paper, though against a decent DE player that's difficult to pull off.

I know what is NOT the best assaulty army - GK.

They are WS4, S4, I4. They do not get Furious Charge, they do not get Fleet, they do not get bonuses for carrying two close combat weapons. True, they can increase their chances through various means like halberds, falchions, hammerhand etc but these are all options that cost extra points or risk perils (and any one who has played GK will know that perils does happen as do failed tests when you are attempting so many). The point is, inherently GK are basic marines - they just pay through the nose for the potential to be better and then more if they want to realise that potential.

A unit of 10 Purifiers, all with halberds that get charged have 20 power weapon attacks - Wowee! Their WS4 (generally speaking) means they will hit 10 times. Not great to be honest but still OK. Then their S4 (again, generally speaking) means that they will cause 5 wounds. Not bad but then they paid 260 points for that. They could assault something and do better but don't have any special rules to help them get into combat any easier/faster than a regular tactical marine.

I'm not saying they are bad in CC or indeed at the whole round of assault. But best in the game? No way. GK HAVE to take halberds to ensure that they are not stomped by any kind of specialist assault unit that can move over 12" during both movement and assault. And with a basic 24" shooting weapon, they will end up in CC sooner rather than later so saying 2 points for a halberd on a Purifier is way too cheap, think of the options otherwise. You've got to spend those 2 points per model which effectively makes them 26 point space marines. They pay for the hurt they can bring in CC but if you are playing a dedicated assault unit against GK, you know you will be the one getting to choose when CC occurs.

We are comparing assault ability, not shooting/assault utility. Purifiers without shooting upgrades vs boyz without shooting upgrades. If you add shooting upgrades to the mix then I get to kill some of your guys before they get to shoot back. Or heck, will hit you with 2 strong flame templates before going in for the cleansing flame. But lets not go there. Yes, people really do take 5 man purifier squads without upgrades. Or they combat squad the special weapons out. So for simplicities sake I just used to basic cost of a halberd or non halberd equipted squad (and honestly against non marines/eldar it hardly ever helps to pay the extra 2 points)

A nob with a PK is a bit more than an assault termie IIRC. Give one a different item makes him cost a bit more. The other guys are cheaper, but if you take a decent number of BCs and other wargear you end up pretty expensive, and I doubt that you can make a proper pain boy and cyborked unit for 200 points or less with more than 5 models in the unit. Lets assume there are 2 PKs in the unit, and 3 big choppas (forgot to add the docs weapon, forgot the profile but it can't be much better than wounding on 2 so i used big choppa stats). 3 choppas aren't going to kill a ton of guys with 4 attacks each. 12 attacks, 8 hits due to banner, 7 wounds rounding a bit. Termies should lose 1 model. I1 attacks, TH/SS guys get 8 attacks cause I gave the orks the charge (which i wonder why since TH/SS are LR bound, but whatever) 4 hit, most common result is 3.33 wounds. Should ID 2 nobs rounding down. PKs go same time, 8 attacks, 6 hits (rounding up quite a bit) 5 wounds, termies bounce 3-4 of them. So 2 dead nobs, 3 dead termies. Nobs count as 2 wounds each, so your nobs lose by 1. When they get the charge and have higher WS and I give them the beneficial side of rounding off.

Now the nob squad is likely to have a warboss attached, but that is adding 150 points or so to one side, and he doesn't really do much other than soak ID shooting and add extra PK attacks in (which is more expensive per attack than just taking more PK nobs).

The thing about nob squads is they cost quite a bit of points to make them into the unstoppable deathstar that many people think of. Units of 5 are a nasty bully unit, but don't really have enough mass to get over the threshold of being backstopped by the typical 5 man TH/SS unit. To win decisively against these guys you will need to invest even more into them. This drains away resources the rest of the army could be using, but is honestly usually worth it. But you can't really say point for point that nobs straight up kill TH/SS.

Now if you want to contest my numbers you are more than welcome, don't have the point values for the nobs memorized anymore, but if you have a better configuration of diverse nobs with a point value within 25 pts of 200 that would do better go for it.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Orks.

Yes, Ork boyz get beaten up by Purifiers. Well. . . kinda. 5 purifiers against 30 boyz with nob is just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks), and looking at the math it's a pretty even fight; basically, whoever gets the charge has a significantly better than even chance of winning. No matter who wins, the other side takes pretty serious casualties

Think about that. The basic ork troop can fight GK Elites, and hold them to a draw. If a 30-man Ork squad gets their face wrecked in CC and is cut down to ten or twelve models. . . oh well. They get on an objective; they slide in behind a charging Nobz squad and add another PK+30 attacks to an assault; they're still an effective unit. If a 5-man Purifier squad gets beat up against an Ork unit, even if they win they're down to one or two models, and are basically hors de combat from that point on.

Furthermore, there isn't any other infantry assault unit in the game as devastating to hordes as Purifiers. If Ork Boyz can fight Purifers, the one unit above all that is specifically DESIGNED to wreck their gak, on a nearly-even basis, that's just more evidence that they shred anything that ISN'T quite so brutal. And they certainly do; BA assault squads, any variant of Terminators, Grey Hunters, whatever it is, match up any infantry you care to name against equal points of Ork Boyz and it dies. Hard. Same goes for most characters and Elite units, for that matter. And that isn't even considering that they get a surprising amount of dakka for their points. The only real downside to Ork Boyz is that they take up a lot of space on the table, and they take a long time to move.

And we haven't even talked about Nobz. Nobz are the most vicious, unit-massacring assault unit around. Even without giving them BCs or PKs, every single one of them throws down 5 S5 attacks on the charge; hell, most Codexes have to use HQs or Special Characters to do that kind of damage! And, of course, they're easy to diversify for WA shenanigans, and you can pack the squad chock-full of BCs and PKs to ensure that you can bring the pain down on anything that catches your eye. They've got FNP with a Painboy; they've got WS 5 with a Waagh! Banner; they've got a hilariously long assault range if you bring Ghazghkull, and there's no reason NOT to bring Ghazghkull because he's also one of the best CC characters in the game. Then there's MANZ, who aren't the most flexible assault unit or the most effective in all situations, but three or four in a trukk make an excellent, cheap cruise missile with a whole lotta S9 PK attacks.

The whole Ork Codex is designed around this idea; mass numbers and hundreds of attacks that can pound through any unit, no matter how tough, especially in assault. And it's really, really good at it.

Paladins and draigo will outdo meganobz with ghazzy any day

notabot187 wrote:We are comparing assault ability, not shooting/assault utility. Purifiers without shooting upgrades vs boyz without shooting upgrades. If you add shooting upgrades to the mix then I get to kill some of your guys before they get to shoot back. Or heck, will hit you with 2 strong flame templates before going in for the cleansing flame. But lets not go there. Yes, people really do take 5 man purifier squads without upgrades. Or they combat squad the special weapons out. So for simplicities sake I just used to basic cost of a halberd or non halberd equipted squad (and honestly against non marines/eldar it hardly ever helps to pay the extra 2 points)

The shooting upgrades are a major part of the importance of Purifiers, and are not for Orks. I've played against GK several times, in the hands of two different people; I've never seen a naked 5-man squad, or in fact a naked squad of any size. That said, I'm sure they're out there, and they do indeed beat Ork boyz point-for point.

Though I must note; if we start to include shooting, the Orks wipe the whole squad with Shoota fire before ever entering assault. 60 shots = 20 hits = 10 wounds = 3 dead in one round of fire, from beyond assault range. Alternatively, if they're slugga boyz, I think they'd win combat after all, or at least make it quite a bit closer. But yeah, let's not go there.

notabot187 wrote:
A nob with a PK is a bit more than an assault termie IIRC. Give one a different item makes him cost a bit more. The other guys are cheaper, but if you take a decent number of BCs and other wargear you end up pretty expensive, and I doubt that you can make a proper pain boy and cyborked unit for 200 points or less with more than 5 models in the unit. Lets assume there are 2 PKs in the unit, and 3 big choppas (forgot to add the docs weapon, forgot the profile but it can't be much better than wounding on 2 so i used big choppa stats). 3 choppas aren't going to kill a ton of guys with 4 attacks each. 12 attacks, 8 hits due to banner, 7 wounds rounding a bit. Termies should lose 1 model. I1 attacks, TH/SS guys get 8 attacks cause I gave the orks the charge (which i wonder why since TH/SS are LR bound, but whatever) 4 hit, most common result is 3.33 wounds. Should ID 2 nobs rounding down. PKs go same time, 8 attacks, 6 hits (rounding up quite a bit) 5 wounds, termies bounce 3-4 of them. So 2 dead nobs, 3 dead termies. Nobs count as 2 wounds each, so your nobs lose by 1. When they get the charge and have higher WS and I give them the beneficial side of rounding off.

You're correct; a PK Nob with cybork body comes out to a truly painful 50 points. For 200 points, you don't get a whole lot of toys with your Nobz. You could take a 10-strong naked choppa/slugga squad, which would ironically do much better against the Assault Termies but not nearly as well against most other things. I think I'd take a squad like this, since 200 points isn't enough to have 25-point PKs floating around.

5x Nobs
Painboy
Waagh! Banner
5x cybork body
BC
BC, kombi-skorcha
Choppa/slugga, bosspole
Choppa/slugga, kombi-skorcha

On the charge that's 10 S5 attacks, 8S7 attacks, and 4 S5 Poisoned 4+ attacks (which in this case is a downside). Going up to 225 points gives you another choppa/slugga Nob for another 5 S5 attacks, but I'll stick with 200 points for now.

So; 10 choppa attacks, 7 hit, 5 wound (rounded up from 4.67). 4 Painboy attacks, 3 hit (rounded up from 2.67), 1 wounds (rounded down from 1.5). 8 BC attacks, 5 hit (rounded down from 5.33), 4 wound (rounded down from 4.44). The Termies make a total of 10 saves, and lose two models (rounded up from 1.67).

Termies swing; 6 attacks, 3 hits, 3 wounds (rounded up from 2.5), 2 Nobz die; we'll say the BC ones. They lose combat.

Next round; 8 S4 attacks, 5 hits, 3 wounds; 3 Painboy attacks, 2 hits, one wound. One Termie dies.

Termies; 4 attacks, 2 hits, on average one choppa Nob dies. Nobz lose combat, again.

3rd round (assuming the Nobz haven't run); 4 choppa attacks, 3 hits, 1 wound (round down this time, for balance). 3 Painboy attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound. Odds are good that the Termies don't lose a man. They kill another Nob, and likely have won by this point. In isolation, then, 5 Assault Termies beat 5 Nobz.

But mathhammer is of no value in isolation. I very much doubt that you will ever see 5 Termies fighting an underequipped 5-man Nobz squad like that; if for no other reason than that both of the units we're considering are almost always transported, and their transports have wildly different costs. That Assault Termie squad doesn't cost 200 points; it costs 450, because they NEED a Land Raider. And the Nobz squad described doesn't cost 200 either; it costs 310, because they need a BW and practically all BWs get a deff rolla put on them. Maybe 320, if you also give the BW a RPJ.

notabot187 wrote:
The thing about nob squads is they cost quite a bit of points to make them into the unstoppable deathstar that many people think of. Units of 5 are a nasty bully unit, but don't really have enough mass to get over the threshold of being backstopped by the typical 5 man TH/SS unit. To win decisively against these guys you will need to invest even more into them. This drains away resources the rest of the army could be using, but is honestly usually worth it. But you can't really say point for point that nobs straight up kill TH/SS.

I can and do say it. The math we just did wasn't for 200 points of Termies vs 200 points of Nobz; it was for 450 points of Termies vs. 320 points of Nobz. Is it surprising that the Termies won?

Nobz are, individually, expensive. But their support and delivery systems are dirt cheap! Getting 5 Assault Termies into combat absolutely requires a 450 point investment; if you walk them up the board they won't make it, and if you DS them they'll be shot to ribbons without ever assaulting anything worthwhile. If you spend 450 points on Nobz, you could add 2 PK Nobz and another BC Nob to the squad I suggested above. Spending the same points gives you a MUCH more effective deathstar.

Try that mathhammer; the Nobz win. The Termies lose three models first round instead of two, and the Nobz have more bodies to absorb casualties. If the Nobz charge, the Termies win the first round of combat by 1 wound but get wiped in round 2; if the Termies get the charge, they kill 3 Nobz and lose 2 Termies in round 1, but then it's 5 vs 3 and as long as the Nobz don't run (which they probably won't, since they've got a bosspole and can re-roll Leadership) they still get ground down.

People who says Nobz are expensive are only looking at them from a limited perspective. When the way they're actually used is taken into account, Nobz are one of the cheapest beatsticks around for a given level of power; which means that the Ork player has more points to spend on other things. Overall, Orks pay less for the same amount of killiness, and that's what makes them, IMO, the best assault army.

TheAngrySquig wrote: Paladins and draigo will outdo meganobz with ghazzy any day

Mmm. . . doubt it. Ghazkghull and his lads will very likely get the charge, since Ghazghkull's Waagh! gives them that handy 6" Fleet move; Draigo and friends get their licks in, probably killing off several of the MANZ, and then Ghazzy roflstomps them with his 7 S10 PK attacks and 2++ save, along with the 5 S9 attacks any surviving MANZ are laying down. Ghazghkull is quite capable of SOLOING most units, including powerful assault units; he's an Eternal Warrior, so those Force Weapons do nothing to him, and that 2++ save when he's Waaghing makes him very nearly unkillable until it wears off. You're going to need to wound him, on average, 24 times, while also killing all his friends.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

notabot187 wrote:
5 purifers cost nearly as much as ork boyz mob 30 strong? What are you smoking? Last I checked even purifers aren't even close to 43 points per model. Maybe if you gave then an assault cannon razorback with upgraded ammo it might be close to the same cost. Put the units at equal cost and then compare. I think that is 8 purifiers if my math is right. 13 dead orks from flames, 4 dead from force weapons. 12 regular orks strike back, 36 attacks. 3 dead GKs, PK kills 2 more, 5 dead GKs. 3 remain, you lost combat by 12, take fearless saves, you fail 10. Remaining squad size is 3 including nob. If GKs do slightly better than average then you are not looking at taking fearless saves, you are looking at getting run down by sweeping advance.

Also how awesome those nobs are the just suck when faced with force weapons striking before they do (can't use wound wrapping to stop that btw) and definately don't like facing down thunder hammers. Also with DE wyches I've tied up nobs and weakened them before. PKs don't like facing 4++ models that only cost 10-12 points. Hell I've killed nob units with multi charging wyche units.

As for how good anti horde purifiers are, I would say that an even better unit for clearing hordes are DE beast packs. A full beast pack of 6 razorwings, 5 masters, 10 kmeria (or however you spell them) costs less than 300 points, has 45 wounds, and so many rending and decent strength attacks that even the biggest baddest ork mob is going be severly mauled if not completely destroyed in one turn of combat.

Ah, my apologies. I wasn't aware you were running completely naked Purifers. You are, of course, correct; if you decide not to use any of the special weapons or options, then you get more models.

Assuming, however, that you're actually running an EFFECTIVE Purifier squadron which can do something, anything, BESIDES barely win combat against hordes, or want unit complexity for wound allocation, your cost will be just a bit higher. 190 points or so is not unreasonable for a 5-man Purifer squad. . . which is, as it happens, nearly as much as 30 Ork Boyz with a PK Nob. Or, as I said before, 'just about equal points (tilted a little in favor of the Orks).'

As I also said, the fact that Ork Boyz, the quintessential horde unit, cannot outfight a unit DESIGNED to be an anti-horde beatstick. . . is a no-brainer. The fact that they do as well as they do is far more important; it demonstrates that they can do significant damage even to a unit that's supposed to be their hard counter.

As to Nobz; yes, it's true that Nobz can't kill absolutely anything ever. If they could, no-one would take anything else. Against force weapons striking before them, yes, Nobz will suffer. Of course, everything suffers against that. Against Thunder Hammers? Mmm. . . not so much. Try running the mathhammer for a tooled-up Nobz squad against Assault Terminators, equal point value. The Nobz hit on a 3+ and wound on a 3+ or a 2+; the shoota/choppa and BC Nobz will kill a few before the Termies get to strike, weather the ID attacks with the help of their 5++ and win the combat anyway once the PKs hit. Against Wyches? Sure, you can tarpit them for a bit, but they put out enough attacks at a high enough Strength that it takes a LOT of Wyches to kill them. If they get the charge they'll shred Wyches or basically any other DE unit like tissue paper, though against a decent DE player that's difficult to pull off.

8 Purifiers 2 with Psycannons, 1 hammer, and 4 hals costs 225(w/o rhino), 30 boyz with a klaw costs 215, this is as close are we're going to get on points and what people actually run. If you're going to be sarcastic and pretend to be intelligent, at least get your own numbers correct. The Purifiers win this encounter as has been shown in several other posts in this thread without firing a shot which is not realistic and excludes their other powerful function. I don't include the transport as part of this because you don't either. Transports effect positioning and circumstance too much to be able to properly quantify them. If anything this discussion favors the Orks in that we're assuming they have the positioning to have their Nob attack and all other 29 models, in game that's not always the case with such cumbersome units.

I don't speak much about Nobs because I don't have a lot of experience with them.

Movac wrote:

8 Purifiers 2 with Psycannons, 1 hammer, and 4 hals costs 225(w/o rhino), 30 boyz with a klaw costs 215, this is as close are we're going to get on points and what people actually run. If you're going to be sarcastic and pretend to be intelligent, at least get your own numbers correct. The Purifiers win this encounter as has been shown in several other posts in this thread without firing a shot which is not realistic and excludes their other powerful function. I don't include the transport as part of this because you don't either. Transports effect positioning and circumstance too much to be able to properly quantify them. If anything this discussion favors the Orks in that we're assuming they have the positioning to have their Nob attack and all other 29 models, in game that's not always the case with such cumbersome units.

I don't speak much about Nobs because I don't have a lot of experience with them.

Thanks for the specific numbers. The reason that I don't include a transport, actually, is that a 30-strong boyz squad can't take one; if it could, I would.

If you want to get into shooting, I'm afraid the Purifiers actually come off worse. 30 Shoota boyz put out 60 S4 shots, with 20 expected hits, and every wound the Purifier squad takes is much more important than a lost Ork boy. Purifers do have longer range, but they can't stay out of the 18" range envelope for very long, particularly not since an Ork unit that's out of range will simply Run to close the distance, and shortly pin them against the board edge. Purifers will definitively lose a shoot-out; it'll be even worse when you consider that you could exactly even the points out by giving the Shoota Boyz 2 Big Shootas, which would allow to throw a few higher-strength shots.

But that isn't what we're talking about; we're talking about the assault. In the assault, yes, Purifiers win. I believe I've mentioned that in every single post, haven't I? That doesn't make GK a better assault army than Orks.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Movac wrote:

8 Purifiers 2 with Psycannons, 1 hammer, and 4 hals costs 225(w/o rhino), 30 boyz with a klaw costs 215, this is as close are we're going to get on points and what people actually run. If you're going to be sarcastic and pretend to be intelligent, at least get your own numbers correct. The Purifiers win this encounter as has been shown in several other posts in this thread without firing a shot which is not realistic and excludes their other powerful function. I don't include the transport as part of this because you don't either. Transports effect positioning and circumstance too much to be able to properly quantify them. If anything this discussion favors the Orks in that we're assuming they have the positioning to have their Nob attack and all other 29 models, in game that's not always the case with such cumbersome units.

I don't speak much about Nobs because I don't have a lot of experience with them.

Thanks for the specific numbers. The reason that I don't include a transport, actually, is that a 20-strong boyz squad can't take one; if it could, I would.

If you want to get into shooting, I'm afraid the Purifiers actually come off worse. 30 Shoota boyz put out 60 S4 shots, with 20 expected hits, and every wound the Purifier squad takes is much more important than a lost Ork boy. Purifers do have longer range, but they can't stay out of the 18" range envelope for very long, particularly not since an Ork unit that's out of range will simply Run to close the distance, and shortly pin them against the board edge. Purifers will definitively lose a shoot-out; it'll be even worse when you consider that you could exactly even the points out by giving the Shoota Boyz 2 Big Shootas, which would allow to throw a few higher-strength shots.

But that isn't what we're talking about; we're talking about the assault. In the assault, yes, Purifiers win. I believe I've mentioned that in every single post, haven't I? That doesn't make GK a better assault army than Orks.

You missed the point about the transport. I'm aware you can't fit 30 boyz in one, but you included it in the squad's point cost without making any account for the mobility it brings the squad. That can't be properly quantified so I kitted out a probable Purifier squad close to 230. (edit: The mob comes to 230 with 2 big shooters and a boss pole)

For a person with a dumb "i am a gewd tacticaltician man" sig you sure do put a lot of faith in your fleet rolls when making your "on the charge" arguments.

Seaward wrote:

Banzaimash wrote:Black Templars: army wide Preferred enemy for ALL enemy units, Furious Charge Terminators, Initiates with close combat weapons for free, Blessed hull LRC's. Pack 24 LC termies into a LRC's with blessed hull, roll em' onto the opponent's doorstep and unleash the motherf*****g fury! Plus BT run forward when they take casualties instead of backward and are fearless in close combat. Finally, take twenty man Crusader Squads (ten initiates, ten neophytes) and you'll have units that can shred up large Ork boy squads without much hassle.

It's definitely not Black Templars. Their Assault Terminators are the best, but everything else used for assault in that 'dex pretty much blows compared to other dedicated assault units.

It arguably should be Black Templars, but we'll just have to see what the future holds. Unfortunately, if rumors are true, what the future holds is orks in power armor.

It's true, we don't have many units, let alone assault ones, and the units we have a lot of the time do feth all (PA Sword Brethren).

Movac wrote:

You missed the point about the transport. I'm aware you can't fit 30 boyz in one, but you included it in the squad's point cost without making any account for the mobility is brings the squad. That can't be properly quantified so I kitted out a probable Purifier squad close to 230. (edit: The mob comes to 230 with 2 big shooters and a boss pole)

Ah, I see. Fair enough. I included the transport just because, well. . . Gk take transports, and Orks don't. I don't often see MEQ infantry without transports, honestly; as far as I'm concerned, it's just part of the unit cost. It is difficult to account for the mobility in terms of mathhammer, but, well. . . that's one of the limitations of mathhammer.

Realistically, GK spend some fraction of their points on transports. This does mean that their squads aren't going to be as powerful, at a given points level, as a unit that didn't; they've traded power for mobility. If you're comparing the combat effectiveness of units, then yes, units that take transports suffer a bit by comparison. In the actual game, this is compensated for via added mobility and protecting from being shot up; mathhammer can't really handle that.

I'll join the wisearses on the vote of Tau, but in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

It Should be Tyranids or Orks. Sadly, I think GK/SW/BA have it.

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

They are good for a shooty army, but not the best.

im2randomghgh wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

They are good for a shooty army, but not the best.

This is the assault thread...

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

Whiskey+Dakka=Wardragoon saying stuff that makes no sense........heh, though I do have to say PW blobs are funny

Wardragoon wrote:

TheAngrySquig wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:But in all seriousness I almost want to say IG and their scary amount of power weapons

Please tell me you aren't being serious right now, please

Whiskey+Dakka=Wardragoon saying stuff that makes no sense........heh, though I do have to say PW blobs are funny

pw blobs are funny, but if we're going to say anyone for a scary amount of them, the GK should be at the top of your list