monolith > annihilation barge?

I would like to see 2 annihilation barges do as much as 1 monolith.

Let's compare in a more organized fashion for you non-believers out there

2 Annihilation Barges
Pros:
1. 8 Shots S7 AP "-" (with potential to get extra shots in from gauss cannon/tesla cannon but unlikely as the mid range usually forces you to move and shoot).
- Shots can be placed on 2 different targets
- Can instant kill T3 models
- Good against infantry with low armour saves
- decent light armour hunter against the very common AV 11 transports each hit will have a 50% chance to at least glance and cause some damage. Unfortunately
- potential to do damage to surrounding enemies...low probability.

2. AV 13 is nothing to sneeze at, even missile barrages are hard pressed to punch through.

3. 2 of these cost 20 pts less than 1 Monolith.

Cons
1. AP "-" makes it harder to wreck vehicles and explode impossible (unless open-topped)

2. Annihilation Barges are Open-Topped! Even glancing hits can kill it...A single missile will find it hard to punch through AV13...but they usually come in barrages, 1 single volley of them can drop a barge right away. And we all know how common place S8 is nowadays

3. It just is NOT effective against hordes. Horde units number 20 - 30 models...the barge doesn't pack enough punch and if the horde unit is in any kind of cover the effect is decreased further. Try facing down a Kan Wall Ork army with annihilation barges and see how many orks you can kill or how many killa kans you can pop open.

4. Fails big time against models that save on anything better than a 5+. 8 shots at 1 fire warrior squad out in the open field roughly comes out to 4 dead fire warriors. EPIC FAIL

5. AV 10 on the rear, makes it easily destroyed by outflankers/deep strikers and assault units that will usually hit it on a 4+

1 Monolith
Pros:
1. AV 14 all around Near immune to S8 unless it has melta/lance special rule it will have a very hard time dealing with a monolith. In assaults only the cream of the crop can ever hope to damage it.

2. Only takes up 1 HS slot in the army

3. Synergy with ANYTHING in the army. You'll be hard pressed to find a situation in any list where a monolith would not be handy to have wether.

4. Many special abilities including Eternity Gate & Deep Strike. Give it a world of flexibility and tactical elements in any game used.

5. Flux Arcs + Particle Whip weaponry makes it solid against ALL targets except for 2+ (Eternity Gate can deal with those though)
Particle Whip
- Instant kills T4 models (the vast majority of models you'd want to ID are T4)
- AP 3 decimates anything short of a terminator or units in heavy cover.
- Blast with BS4 has good chance of hitting and taking out large chunks of enemy infantry
- Ordnance makes it great against enemy tanks can be used to effectively destroy transports on a hit.

Flux Arc
- 12 shots S4 AP 5 GAUSS can target both enemy vehicles AND infantry.
- Can be aimed at 4 different targets!!
- Can be fired together with Portal of Exile.

6. Best LOS in the Necron army. Enemies find greater difficulty in finding cover against shots from the monolith.

Cons
1. Fire magnet...draws a lot of attention BECAUSE it's SO good. This can easily be used to your advantage however. And it's so tall that you will hardly ever get a cover save for it unless you are playing in a city scenario or something with large structures.

2. Cannot fire other weapons when using Particle Whip

3. Does not have the option to move more than combat speed.

4. Units disembarking from it count as doing so from a vehicle that moved, thus making it only real useful for shooty units than cc units.

I think you missed a few points:

1. Melta is more prevalent than Str 8 when fighting against MEQ as every single unit will have Melta in it.

2. Annihilation Barges will average slightly higher than 1 pen & 1 glance against AV11 thanks to TLing Tesla.

3. Horde armies will not likely have as much cover as you think, because they are horde armies.

4. The Monolith's doorway to nowhere attack is almost never useful; it's really more of a novelty.

5. The Monolith will basically never have cover against anything, whereas the Annihilation Barge can sometimes get a cover save.

6. However, the Monolith does give cover to your army, whereas the Annihilation Barge usually does not.

7. Dedicated tank hunters will not struggle against AV 14 if they don't against AV 13

8. QS doesn't protect against melee. The Monolith doesn't have this problem.

9. Don't ever deep strike a Monolith now that it has no protection against mishaps.

I'll start with disclaimer. I actually LIKE the Monolith, and have defended it on a few occasions. However, I don't believe it has a place in every list like it was before. Honestly, there are only a few lists that I find they can really benefit.

For starters All Necron Vehicles besides the Monolith are AV 11 Rear.

I agree that Annihilation barges are not tank killers, they are tank suppressors. Sometimes all you need is that Shaken and/or stunned result so that you can move on. This works great with things like Wraiths or Scarabs that can then Munch on it.

The TL nature of all Tesla Destructors can help with getting those extra shots. You are almost guaranteed to at least land all four shots, and possible more. The Chance for Arcing can also lay down the hurt on Hordes. On their own, they may not be horde killers, but when you factor in that you can get them cheap, and most Horde armies have trouble hurting the AV 13, They can lay down the hurt quickly. These definitely work best in conjunction with other Annihilation barges, since this increases the chances of more sixes.

I could feel safe adding 2-3 Annihilation barges in almost every list, since they work very well with the rest of the army.


Now, onto the Monolith. I do feel the Monolith has a place in some lists now, but it is not the Auto-include it used to be. The biggest issue now, was one of it's greatest strengths before is that is such a large target. With it's lack of immunity now, it makes it an enterprising target for Melta/Lance.

Another thing is, because it's so slow, if you can Immobilize it from range, it is as good as destroyed. All of it's weapons are 24' or less, so depending on where it was immobilized it may do nothing for the rest of the game.

Things like Dark Eldar Ravagers can down a Monolith very quickly, with their 48' range thanks to Aeriel assault. The Monoliths short ranged weaponry also means once it starts to get into range, it's going to start eating Melta weapons quite often, and most armies that can, pack a ton of Melta now.

Deep striking it can be a very risky endeavor since it lost it's protection to mishaps, and it's such a huge model.

azazel the cat wrote:I think you missed a few points:

1. Melta is more prevalent than Str 8 when fighting against MEQ as every single unit will have Melta in it.

2. Annihilation Barges will average slightly higher than 1 pen & 1 glance against AV11 thanks to TLing Tesla.

3. Horde armies will not likely have as much cover as you think, because they are horde armies.

4. The Monolith's doorway to nowhere attack is almost never useful; it's really more of a novelty.

5. The Monolith will basically never have cover against anything, whereas the Annihilation Barge can sometimes get a cover save.

6. However, the Monolith does give cover to your army, whereas the Annihilation Barge usually does not.

7. Dedicated tank hunters will not struggle against AV 14 if they don't against AV 13

8. QS doesn't protect against melee. The Monolith doesn't have this problem.

9. Don't ever deep strike a Monolith now that it has no protection against mishaps.

1. Unless you are playing in tournaments ONLY most armies wont be choke full of melta guns. I play MEQ armies (look at my sig) and even I don't own so many meltas. You are also wrong that every unit will have melta in it, you will see a lot more missile launchers or equivalent and they wont be hurting monoliths, but they'll rape ABs. Also from my own MEQ playing experience getting a melta gun in range is NOT so easy you have to be within 6" remember? Otherwise that melta is useless and we have a whole army of stuff to prevent enemies from getting within 6" of the monolith do we not? Or are we just letting them waltz in there?? Even still my argument still holds true that anything that can get a lucky penetrating hit on a monolith will decimate ABs.

2. Please show me the math on this. ABs are not likely to be destroying AV 11 with only S7 and AP -

3. I play the hordies armies there is in 40k (again look at my sig). And yes we get cover saves pretty frequently in many different ways, some cover is always better than no cover. Rules state that the table should have 25% cover on it, and you get to decide where half of it is placed. There's no good reason why you shouldnt have some decent cover in every game unless again it's soem sort of tournament where they decide it for you and even then they always put in some good cover. The AB doesnt have the mobility to pick and choose fire lanes to deny cover without sacrificing a turn of shooting.

4. Tell that to all the terminators and special characters i've killed with it. Are you trying to take out monstrous creatures of something with it? Because it works perfectly fine against S3 and S4 models which the great majority of models in 40k are.

5. Yeah you are correct 100%, but this also means the Monolith has superior LOS as it's tall enough to not be affected by other stuff that would grant cover to models beign hit by an AB's shots.

6. Agreed

7. Completely false, dedicated tank hunters...mmm it takes 27 lascannons at BS 4 to guarantee a kill against AV 14. It only takes 9 to gurantee a kill against AV 13 Open-Topped. That's a huge difference. 1 Monolith can take as much punishment as 3 ABs.

8. Agreed

9. I mostly DS my Monoliths and do great. Unless they stall until turn 5 lol which sucks balls but otherwise the deep strike mechanism NEVER relied on protection against mishaps to be useful. The table is enormous and we have 24" weapons we dont need to be terribly close to stuff that will make us mishap. Assume that you'll roll a 7" scatter and choose a spot 8" away from anything that will make you mishap and you'll be fine. I almost never mishap and i deep strike all the time.

Sasori wrote:I'll start with disclaimer. I actually LIKE the Monolith, and have defended it on a few occasions. However, I don't believe it has a place in every list like it was before. Honestly, there are only a few lists that I find they can really benefit.

For starters All Necron Vehicles besides the Monolith are AV 11 Rear.

I agree that Annihilation barges are not tank killers, they are tank suppressors. Sometimes all you need is that Shaken and/or stunned result so that you can move on. This works great with things like Wraiths or Scarabs that can then Munch on it.

The TL nature of all Tesla Destructors can help with getting those extra shots. You are almost guaranteed to at least land all four shots, and possible more. The Chance for Arcing can also lay down the hurt on Hordes. On their own, they may not be horde killers, but when you factor in that you can get them cheap, and most Horde armies have trouble hurting the AV 13, They can lay down the hurt quickly. These definitely work best in conjunction with other Annihilation barges, since this increases the chances of more sixes.

I could feel safe adding 2-3 Annihilation barges in almost every list, since they work very well with the rest of the army.


Now, onto the Monolith. I do feel the Monolith has a place in some lists now, but it is not the Auto-include it used to be. The biggest issue now, was one of it's greatest strengths before is that is such a large target. With it's lack of immunity now, it makes it an enterprising target for Melta/Lance.

Another thing is, because it's so slow, if you can Immobilize it from range, it is as good as destroyed. All of it's weapons are 24' or less, so depending on where it was immobilized it may do nothing for the rest of the game.

Things like Dark Eldar Ravagers can down a Monolith very quickly, with their 48' range thanks to Aeriel assault. The Monoliths short ranged weaponry also means once it starts to get into range, it's going to start eating Melta weapons quite often, and most armies that can, pack a ton of Melta now.

Deep striking it can be a very risky endeavor since it lost it's protection to mishaps, and it's such a huge model.

1. Oops you are 100% correct I forgot its rear AV 11, goes to show how long those things usually live that I didnt even remember that.

2. While a AB can suppress a tank, the monolith can outright destroy it and is effective against higher AV vehicles not just AV 11 and lower. Aginst AV 12 the ABs are practically useless...I know because i've tried time and again at shooting down Tau devilfishes to no avail. The monolith can at the same exact range lay the smackdown on any AV12 or AV13 even.

3. Immortals with tesla carbine > annihilation barge vs infantry. The AB is 'decent" versus tanks and "decent" versus infantry, it's far from the optimal unit that the internet is making it out to be. Immortals would at least be scoring get cover saves easy and do very close to the same amount of damage making them point for point better.

4. Yeah i agree the loss of the old living metal will be missed, but this does not mean that the monolith did not again anything out of it. It can easily ignore shaken/stunned, the eternity gate was vastly improved and like i said before AV 14 is still king even with all the melta flying around people still use LR in tournaments because they WORK! They move in and unload those cc units the monolith at least has way more utility and not every army out there has lance weaponry nor melta weaponry.

Plus any of these weapons aimed at ABs will destroy them practically guranteed and they can tagert ABs just as easily as a monolith because ABs only ever move 24" in order to be able to fire to move cruising speed is to not shoot for a turn and if you are doing that then why did you bring the AB in the first place?? Melta still has to get within 6" or 12" IF MULTIMELTA and lance weapons are usually S8 vs AV12 which still gives the monolith a good amount of survivability.

5. Yes immobilize the monolith and it's just going to sit there immune to anything short of S9 and still firing all its weapons and teleporting units through tis portal to support positions or escape danger.

Roll a 4 (immobilised ) result against an AB and oh wait...it's wrecked because its open-topped. But lets assume that you rolled a 3 on a pen hit...now you are immobilized subject to all the same negative effects that an immobilized monolith has, mid ranged weaponry etc etc...but now you are AV 11 as well and vulnerable even to S6 fire.

No matter how you look at it the Monolith IS in fact the clear superior option thus why its cost more than 2 ABs, because its worth IS infact better than 2 ABs.

The monolith is an auto-include becasue it will ALWAYS find use. You will ALWAYS have something you can port through it in your list it's impossible not to. That alone is great utility.
It will soak up a lot of shots that wont be killing your other stuff.
It is good against every single target in game. Well maybe not 'good' but at least threatens them in some way weather by particle whip, flux arcs or portal of exile.

6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

1. Oops you are 100% correct I forgot its rear AV 11, goes to show how long those things usually live that I didnt even remember that.

It happens.

2. While a AB can suppress a tank, the monolith can outright destroy it and is effective against higher AV vehicles not just AV 11 and lower. Aginst AV 12 the ABs are practically useless...I know because i've tried time and again at shooting down Tau devilfishes to no avail. The monolith can at the same exact range lay the smackdown on any AV12 or AV13 even.

The Annihilation barges are much faster, and you get two for less than the price of the Monolith. 8 TL Destructor shots has a better chance of killing 10-12 AV than the Single particle whip does. The Monolith can damage AV13, but the Likelihood is very slim.

3. Immortals with tesla carbine > annihilation barge vs infantry. The AB is 'decent" versus tanks and "decent" versus infantry, it's far from the optimal unit that the internet is making it out to be. Immortals would at least be scoring get cover saves easy and do very close to the same amount of damage making them point for point better.

A 5 man squad of Immortals is only 5 points less than an Annihilation barge, and do not put out close the amount of firepower a Barge can for the points.

4. Yeah i agree the loss of the old living metal will be missed, but this does not mean that the monolith did not again anything out of it. It can easily ignore shaken/stunned, the eternity gate was vastly improved and like i said before AV 14 is still king even with all the melta flying around people still use LR in tournaments because they WORK! They move in and unload those cc units the monolith at least has way more utility and not every army out there has lance weaponry nor melta weaponry.

The only time I've been seeing Land Raiders are in Vanilla Marine lists. I never see them in SW/BA/GK which are far more common now than vanilla marines. Every Army has some form of Lance or Melta. Maybe not a lot, but they do all have them.

Plus any of these weapons aimed at ABs will destroy them practically guranteed and they can tagert ABs just as easily as a monolith because ABs only ever move 24" in order to be able to fire to move cruising speed is to not shoot for a turn and if you are doing that then why did you bring the AB in the first place?? Melta still has to get within 6" or 12" IF MULTIMELTA and lance weapons are usually S8 vs AV12 which still gives the monolith a good amount of survivability.

I had a little trouble reading through this part. It's a fair amount of survivability.

5. Yes immobilize the monolith and it's just going to sit there immune to anything short of S9 and still firing all its weapons and teleporting units through tis portal to support positions or escape danger.

It depends on where it's immobilized. If it's Immobilized in your Deployment zone, away from an objective, it's not going to do anything.

Roll a 4 (immobilised ) result against an AB and oh wait...it's wrecked because its open-topped. But lets assume that you rolled a 3 on a pen hit...now you are immobilized subject to all the same negative effects that an immobilized monolith has, mid ranged weaponry etc etc...but now you are AV 11 as well and vulnerable even to S6 fire.

You also have 2 of these, it hurts a lot more when that Monolith is wrecked or Immobilized, than the single Annihilation barge.

No matter how you look at it the Monolith IS in fact the clear superior option thus why its cost more than 2 ABs, because its worth IS infact better than 2 ABs.

I disagree completely. I agree that the Monolith has tactical flexibility, I strongly disagree that no matter how you look at it, it's better.

The monolith is an auto-include becasue it will ALWAYS find use. You will ALWAYS have something you can port through it in your list it's impossible not to. That alone is great utility.
It will soak up a lot of shots that wont be killing your other stuff.
It is good against every single target in game. Well maybe not 'good' but at least threatens them in some way weather by particle whip, flux arcs or portal of exile.

It does have tactical flexibility, but has a plethora of downsides to go with it. It is not always an auto-include.

6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

This is not always the case.

I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

1. The AB is not 'much faster' it can move cruising speed that's the only difference. And if it does that it cannot shoot

if you move cruising and dont shoot for a turn to reposition you are actually inflicting less damage than if you had just moved combat speed and shot tesla destructor 2x.

Do the math.

2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

3. I didnt say immortals outshoot the barge I said they do damage comparable to a barge while being scoring units with cover saves thus way more survivable. They simply do the anti infantry duty much better

4. That still means that raiders are still in use, many people still play vanilla marines and BT also make use of LRs as do Dark Angels. AV14 is not as uncommon as you would make it sound to be.

5. Are you saying that an AB immobilized in the deployment zone is ANY better than a Monolith immobilized on the same spot?? That makes no damn sense. The monolith is still superior and if you are immobilized at ur deployment zone and are playing something like capture and control or seize ground you can advance with your scoring units and then port them back to home base to recapture your objective at last minute. So that's still useful even at the deployment zone.

6. 2 ABs will never be as survivable as 1 monolith no matter how you try to dice it. You should concede this argument on survivability you and I both know the monolith is as resilient as at least 3 ABs. Proven by the lascannon theory

7. It is when it comes to the monolith which is what we are discussing.

Gornall wrote:I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

- Particle Whip > Tesla Destructor versus any vehicle. Do the math hammer. At the end of hte day the tesla destructor needs a 6 to wreck even on a pen hit, if you ONLY glance lord save you with that -3 you will be lookin at shaken results all day.

Instead of people basing things on perception just run the numbers. I ran the numbers in my head and the monolith always comes out on top effectively damaging vehicles more often all the way up to AV 13 rather than just shaking/stunning them. Also flux arc can be aimed at up to 4 targets and you'll often be able to shoot at 2 diff targets and its has the gauss special rule so you can effectively get the same effect as 2 barges on 2 targets. So this argument is not unique to the barge alone. Best part is that the flux arc CAN also work just as effectively against AV 14 in terms of glancing it.

Dude you can in NO WAY compare tesla destructor to psyriflemen...24" range S7 4 shots AP - does not in ANY WaY to 48" range S7 4 shots AP4 RENDING I play MEQ (see my sig) and the comparison is like comparing an ant to an elephant.

Gornall wrote:I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

I personally think they fit well in a Dual Solar pulse, Mostly footslogging list. I believe this is when you can use the Monolith to it's maximum potential, as the portal becomes A LOT more useful, than when say you are meched up. Without relaying on the Transports, it leaves you a lot more points to get more things on foot, Like Wraiths and Royal Court members. The Monolith has tended to do very well, or almost nothing in the few lists I've played with it. Armies like Dark Eldar just laugh at it, while armies that relay on only strength 8 to pop tanks, can do nothing.

8 S7 AP- Twin-linked shots against AV 12, at BS 4;

5 hits, 3 misses re-rolled; 2 more hits, total of 7.

1.17 glances, 1.17 pens; 1/6 chance to destroy, but you're guaranteed to at least shake, and will likely immobilize or remove a weapon.

1 S8 AP 3 Large Blast against AV 12, at BS 4;

Average scatter is 3"; you therefore have about a 50% chance to end up with the center hole of the template over the vehicle, depending on what vehicle it is. We'll assume 50%, at any rate.

0.5 hits gives us 0.0833 glances and 0.167 pens.

The Monolith's Particle Whip is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than two Annihilation Barges at damaging AV 12 vehicles. In fact, it's even worse than a single Annihilation Barge. Neither is very good at it, but the Monolith is much, much worse.

Akaiyou wrote:2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

2x ABs worth of Tesla Destructors (due to the Tesla rule, I had to manually enter in the average number of hits which is why it show 100% hit rate)

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 9
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 9
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25
Options: Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 9
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Results
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

1x Particle Whip

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 1
Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%
1" Scatter: 7.41%
2" Scatter: 9.26%
3" Scatter: 11.11%
4-6" Scatter: 22.22%
7"+ Scatter: 5.56%
Hits: 1
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 33.33%
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056
Options: Blast, Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Results
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

Akaiyou wrote:

Gornall wrote:I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

- Particle Whip > Tesla Destructor versus any vehicle. Do the math hammer. At the end of hte day the tesla destructor needs a 6 to wreck even on a pen hit, if you ONLY glance lord save you with that -3 you will be lookin at shaken results all day.

Instead of people basing things on perception just run the numbers. I ran the numbers in my head and the monolith always comes out on top effectively damaging vehicles more often all the way up to AV 13 rather than just shaking/stunning them. Also flux arc can be aimed at up to 4 targets and you'll often be able to shoot at 2 diff targets and its has the gauss special rule so you can effectively get the same effect as 2 barges on 2 targets. So this argument is not unique to the barge alone. Best part is that the flux arc CAN also work just as effectively against AV 14 in terms of glancing it.

Dude you can in NO WAY compare tesla destructor to psyriflemen...24" range S7 4 shots AP - does not in ANY WaY to 48" range S7 4 shots AP4 RENDING I play MEQ (see my sig) and the comparison is like comparing an ant to an elephant.

Can you post the mathhammer in the thread? Yes, the Monolith has twice as good of a chance to kill a tank IF it hits and if it pens... but two Barges generate approximately 3.6 PENS and 1.8 glances against AV11 and 1.8 PENS and 1.8 glances against AV12--Not even counting the Tesla Cannon. In the case of AV11 you have almost 4 times as many chances (not even factoring in scatter) to kill a tank and AV12 has almost twice as many. When you factor in the glances, I think that it shows the Barges are better at killing vehicles, even with the AP-.

If you are firing the flux arcs, you are NOT firing the Particle whip (because of ordanance)... which makes them really only useful after the Particle Whip has been destroyed. Yes, they can target four targets... if they can fire... and have units in LOS.

And I was referring to the standard Rifleman from Vanilla SM. I also play SM, BA, and GK and find that 4 TL S7 shots (no rending) does a great job of suppressing/damaging vehicles. Even with the AP- the ABs have, the sheer number of shots can still get the job done.

EDIT: NINJAED X2

Really about the only shooting the Particle Whip outshines a pair of tesla destructors on is in shooting T4 or less multiwound models and MEQ out of cover (and against MEQ that assumes an average of 7 models hit, which is VERY generous). Everything else is hands down in favor of the ABs.

I like how the person telling others to do the math had not actually done so.

The utility and resilience of the monolith are what make it cost more, not its firepower. The ABs have more raw firepower as has been demonstrated.

Dracos wrote:I like how the person telling others to do the math had not actually done so.

The utility and resilience of the monolith are what make it cost more, not its firepower. The ABs have more raw firepower as has been demonstrated.

In the Flayed Ones thread he made, he told people he doesn't want to talk about theory hammer either

I'd take an Annihilation barge to hunt av 12 armor over a monolith any day. It's more accurate. I'd rather take a chance to pen, heck, even to glance, over missing entirely with my 1 shot from the monolith.

Monolith is an OKAY unit, but as Sasori truthfully said, it's no longer a "must have" in every list. I have 3x annihilation barges and LOVE them. I don't rely on pretty much anything in our "heavy" slot to be tank hunters. I rely more on the wraiths + destroyer lord w/ warscythe, or my scarabs, or my heavy destroyers, or my triarch stalker, or my harbingers of destruction, etc.....

Sasori wrote:

6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

This is not always the case.

Oh god that's hilarious. A friend of mine is an engineer in the army, was doing some exercises with the Yanks and aussie's. His lot were the enemy force, and had pretty much their guns, kit, and a roll of barbed wire and artillery support to try and slow down the invaders as much as possible. The invaders a tank division backed by some infantry platoons. So what they did was cut the barbed wire into little coils, and dug them all over the roads of the town, and legged it into the hills nearby. The invaders approach the town, and the whole convey stops when they come across these little metal pins sticking out of the ground, and mine sweepers are called forth...meanwhile, the engineers are sitting in the hills laughing at what they see down the binoculars and dialing in the coordinates for the boys on the artillery.

The defenders had smalls arms and basic kits, artillery support and barbed wire.
The invaders had tanks, way more numbers of infantry who were also mechanized and better equipped, air support, gunship support, detailed information of the town and the surrounding area. And they got their ass handed to them by little strips of barbed wire. Every time they come across them the whole convey stops and checks for mines, and a nice shower of artillery shells. Technological and numerical superiority, with far more tactical options, totally nullified by strips of barbed ing wire.

Besides that, have you SEEN the footprint of a monolith? Good luck deepstriking into anywhere but the most obvious of places.

Akaiyou wrote:Unless you are playing in tournaments ONLY most armies wont be choke full of melta guns. I play MEQ armies (look at my sig) and even I don't own so many meltas. You are also wrong that every unit will have melta in it, you will see a lot more missile launchers or equivalent and they wont be hurting monoliths, but they'll rape ABs. Also from my own MEQ playing experience getting a melta gun in range is NOT so easy you have to be within 6" remember? Otherwise that melta is useless and we have a whole army of stuff to prevent enemies from getting within 6" of the monolith do we not? Or are we just letting them waltz in there?? Even still my argument still holds true that anything that can get a lucky penetrating hit on a monolith will decimate ABs.

Yes. People let their opponents "waltz in there" with meltaguns. It's not that their opponents have a falcon/serpent full of dragons. Or a speeder. Or a drop pod. Or even the humble rhino- I'm shocked by people who themselves are shocked at turn 2 range (12" deployment+12"move+12"move+3"disembark+6"melta/12"non =45"melta range/51"non melta range. Therefore, If your monolith is 45" away from my board edge on turn 2, I can melta it. With my basic transport and troop unit, not whipping out bikes or speeders or pods or any other such shenanigans. I don't play tournaments, but I know most of my armies are filled to the brim with meltaguns. Why wouldn't you? It's an anti-everything gun, well anti-everything-but-hordes. Oh wait, I can take double flamers instead of double meltas. Problem solved, at a simple 2:1 ratio

Akaiyou wrote:

Dude you can in NO WAY compare tesla destructor to psyriflemen...24" range S7 4 shots AP - does not in ANY WaY to 48" range S7 4 shots AP4 RENDING I play MEQ (see my sig) and the comparison is like comparing an ant to an elephant.

...I believe a few posts above me, someone did !
Psyrifleman is S8, not rending autocannons. I play MEQ too, CSM SW and vanilla when I feel silly from time to time. Because I do play MEQ armies, I understand quite well that no one in their right mind would let me walk up to a monolith or a land raider or whatever AV13-14 high priority target and slag it. I'd say they'd do almost everything in their power to stop me from doing it! Which is why I understand that using transports, speed and a scoop of raw cunning, I can slag any vehicle with a meltagun. Which is why I field alot of them! Being a MEQ player, and a CSM player, I understand quite well the value of lots of S7 shooting- AC havocs and rifleman cause my eldar and ork mates to howl in fury as their special fast transports get dakka'd down! It also has given me little insights like why I should shoot my havocs at that rhino/serpent instead of my defilers battlecannon. What does this have to do with AB's and monliths? S8 Ap3 large blast, compared to...S8 Ap3 large blast with 48" more of range! S7 AP4 vs...S7 AP-! oh no, -1 on the chart! Its a good thing I',m going for multiple results! At the worst, that vehicle won't shoot me next turn! I've learned that shaken result can be all you need at times.

You started the thread with a question. Monolith> annihilation barge? It has become quite clear that you're a fanboy of monoliths, and pretty much don't want to listen to anyone who disagree's with you. It's kind of childish, really =\

Jihallah wrote:

You started the thread with a question. Monolith> annihilation barge? It has become quite clear that you're a fanboy of monoliths, and pretty much don't want to listen to anyone who disagree's with you. It's kind of childish, really =\

I don't mean to sound like a jerk to the OP, but I agree with you 100%. OP sounds like he got an ebay auction army or a hand me down, or played a lot in 3rd edition and is grasping onto his old units trying to convince himself why he shouldn't have to buy the newer ones.

I feel the same way, as I said in the flayed ones army , i have 20x the old flayed ones. They were fun to use, but never competitive, but the newer ones are pretty much tripe. I've accepted I need to buy new models, and I don't have a beef with that, i actually love the newer models... also I had about 5.5k necrons before the latest codex, so yeah it sorta stung to see what has happened to the monolith, i have 2 of them, but that being said I won't clutch on to them and scream "NO! MY MONOLITH IS SUPER POWERED!"

I've seen scout squads come onto the board and snipe my monolith, or a storm raven, or drop pods. It's a 2 player game, and you cannot control everything your opponent does to your units.

Cryage wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

You started the thread with a question. Monolith> annihilation barge? It has become quite clear that you're a fanboy of monoliths, and pretty much don't want to listen to anyone who disagree's with you. It's kind of childish, really =\

I don't mean to sound like a jerk to the OP, but I agree with you 100%. OP sounds like he got an ebay auction army or a hand me down, or played a lot in 3rd edition and is grasping onto his old units trying to convince himself why he shouldn't have to buy the newer ones.

I do. I'm with Dracos here- I like (read- find it highly amusing) that the person telling others to do the math had not actually done so. I might be , but at least I'm not a fething

BeRzErKeR wrote:8 S7 AP- Twin-linked shots against AV 12, at BS 4;

5 hits, 3 misses re-rolled; 2 more hits, total of 7.

1.17 glances, 1.17 pens; 1/6 chance to destroy, but you're guaranteed to at least shake, and will likely immobilize or remove a weapon.

1 S8 AP 3 Large Blast against AV 12, at BS 4;

Average scatter is 3"; you therefore have about a 50% chance to end up with the center hole of the template over the vehicle, depending on what vehicle it is. We'll assume 50%, at any rate.

0.5 hits gives us 0.0833 glances and 0.167 pens.

The Monolith's Particle Whip is SIGNIFICANTLY worse than two Annihilation Barges at damaging AV 12 vehicles. In fact, it's even worse than a single Annihilation Barge. Neither is very good at it, but the Monolith is much, much worse.

Versus AV 12 comparison

5.33 hits
1.33 hits on re-roll

6.66 total hits

Since you rolled 11 times lets assume you landed 2 6s to hit.

4 additional hits

10.66 hits

Vs AV 12
3.553333333 will be glancing or better
1.776666667 will be a penetrating

All you glancing shots will be at -3
All your penetratin shots will be at -1

And no you are not 'likely to immobilize' You have the same exact odds that you do on regular damage table of landing an immobilized result .16% chance

You are simply far more likely to only get shaken with .32% chance of shaken on a pen.

50% chance of shaken on a glance.

Monolith has 55% to hit (i believe that's the correct math on it if i remember correctly on large blasts)

0.55% hit with an ORDENANCE weapon
2D6 pick highest S8 vs AV 12 = 75% chance to glance 50% chance to pen

THIS is the correct math for it

And now when you roll on the damage table you do not suffer from any added penalties. Meaning you have 33% chance to destroy on a pen

The Monolith wins.

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

2x ABs worth of Tesla Destructors (due to the Tesla rule, I had to manually enter in the average number of hits which is why it show 100% hit rate)

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 9
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 9
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25
Options: Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 9
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Results
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

1x Particle Whip

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 1
Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%
1" Scatter: 7.41%
2" Scatter: 9.26%
3" Scatter: 11.11%
4-6" Scatter: 22.22%
7"+ Scatter: 5.56%
Hits: 1
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 33.33%
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056
Options: Blast, Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Results
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

What on earth is all that?? I did not understand it at all where are you getting 9 shots from anyway???? Please post clear math hammer next time.

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

Gornall wrote:I have been thinking about running a Monolith with two Annihilation Barges... or Doomscythes. That way the Mono can screen the squishier vehicles from Missile Spam.

My biggest problem with the Monolith is not its 200 point price tag or it's perceived lack of survivability Rather, it is the fact that its main weapon is one shot per turn... and is ordanance, so you cannot fire the flux arcs. That is a big problem, as you are relying on either catching infantry bunched up out in the open, or you are hoping that you don't scatter off a vehicle, pen it, it fails any cover, and then you roll decent on the damage result. That's just too many ifs. Against anything AV12 or less, I think your Annihilation Barges are going to do significantly better at stripping weapons/immobilizing them, simply because of the larger number of shots. Ask normal Riflemen how four TL S7 shots do against Rhinos and Chimeras. Even with the AP - of the AB, more shots have a higher chance of causing damage.

At the end of the day, two ABs can disable/destroy two transports a turn while a Monolith is hoping just to kill one.

@Sasori: What kind of Necron list would a Monolith fit well into?

- Particle Whip > Tesla Destructor versus any vehicle. Do the math hammer. At the end of hte day the tesla destructor needs a 6 to wreck even on a pen hit, if you ONLY glance lord save you with that -3 you will be lookin at shaken results all day.

Instead of people basing things on perception just run the numbers. I ran the numbers in my head and the monolith always comes out on top effectively damaging vehicles more often all the way up to AV 13 rather than just shaking/stunning them. Also flux arc can be aimed at up to 4 targets and you'll often be able to shoot at 2 diff targets and its has the gauss special rule so you can effectively get the same effect as 2 barges on 2 targets. So this argument is not unique to the barge alone. Best part is that the flux arc CAN also work just as effectively against AV 14 in terms of glancing it.

Dude you can in NO WAY compare tesla destructor to psyriflemen...24" range S7 4 shots AP - does not in ANY WaY to 48" range S7 4 shots AP4 RENDING I play MEQ (see my sig) and the comparison is like comparing an ant to an elephant.

Can you post the mathhammer in the thread? Yes, the Monolith has twice as good of a chance to kill a tank IF it hits and if it pens... but two Barges generate approximately 3.6 PENS and 1.8 glances against AV11 and 1.8 PENS and 1.8 glances against AV12--Not even counting the Tesla Cannon. In the case of AV11 you have almost 4 times as many chances (not even factoring in scatter) to kill a tank and AV12 has almost twice as many. When you factor in the glances, I think that it shows the Barges are better at killing vehicles, even with the AP-.

If you are firing the flux arcs, you are NOT firing the Particle whip (because of ordanance)... which makes them really only useful after the Particle Whip has been destroyed. Yes, they can target four targets... if they can fire... and have units in LOS.

And I was referring to the standard Rifleman from Vanilla SM. I also play SM, BA, and GK and find that 4 TL S7 shots (no rending) does a great job of suppressing/damaging vehicles. Even with the AP- the ABs have, the sheer number of shots can still get the job done.

EDIT: NINJAED X2

Was thinking of my psycannons for some reason either way psyriflemen are much better AT than ABs run the math there's no comparison for TL autocannons vs tesla destructor.

Also read above my math hammer on Monolith and ABs vs AV12

It seems you are all forgetting what ordenance does monolith has a great chance to pen AV 12 or anything short of AV14 for that matter.

More pens with a AP - attached to it doesnt reliably get rid of vehicles it simply reliably shakes them. A transport wont care how many shaken results you get on it. A dead transport will

Akaiyou wrote:

Monolith has 55% to hit (i believe that's the correct math on it if i remember correctly on large blasts)

Damn son, are you on crack son? That's just bad son. 55% chance to scatter on what? The area you need to scatter on is different for each vehicle. You are MUCH more likely to scatter off a viper than a land raider, or another monolith for that matter! Don't pull out your ass like that. At least if you do give me some of what your smoking first!

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

2x ABs worth of Tesla Destructors (due to the Tesla rule, I had to manually enter in the average number of hits which is why it show 100% hit rate)

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 9
Hit Chance: 100%
Hits: 9
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 16.67%
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25
Options: Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 9
Glancing Hits: 1.5
Penetration Hits: 1.5
Results
Shaken: 1.5
Stunned: 0.5
Weapon Destroyed: 0.5
Immobilized: 0.25
Wrecked: 0.25


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

1x Particle Whip

Shooting Vs Vehicles

Attacker Group 1 vs Defender Group

Calculations by Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

-----------------------------

Attackers

Attacker Group 1
Shots: 1
Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%
1" Scatter: 7.41%
2" Scatter: 9.26%
3" Scatter: 11.11%
4-6" Scatter: 22.22%
7"+ Scatter: 5.56%
Hits: 1
Glancing Chance: 16.67%
Penetration Chance: 33.33%
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056
Options: Blast, Auto Hit

-----------------------------

Defenders

Defender Group
Hits: 1
Glancing Hits: 0.167
Penetration Hits: 0.333
Results
Shaken: 0.139
Stunned: 0.083
Weapon Destroyed: 0.083
Immobilized: 0.083
Wrecked: 0.056
Explodes: 0.056


-----------------------------
Heresy Combat Calculator™ (powered by HAMulator™)

What on earth is all that?? I did not understand it at all where are you getting 9 shots from anyway???? Please post clear math hammer next time.

I still would rather take my 8, twinlinked shots from 2 Annihilation barges vs 1 shot from the monolith.

66% chance the monolith will scatter
Think its something like 3 inches will make the center hole move off of a land raider completely, making the str of the blast only half. You then need to roll less than a 7 on a 2d6 to get that center hole over the land raider. You then need to roll an 8 to glance, so thats a 1/3 chance since you get to roll a 2d6.

I'm using a land raider since its a big target. Take something like a rhino, and your chance for missing completely goes up by a full inch, so you need to roll less than a 6 on a 2d6 when you scatter.

Not worth it IMO.

lol am i the one in denial or are you guys just feeding off internet babble?

First off again i repeat no way does AB compete with riflemen dreads

48" range hands down outclasses it
and it doesnt suffer from the ap -

I would love to play any of you with your ABs versus my psyriflemen dread and then we can compare. It'll take you 2 turns minimum to get anywhere near in range to shoot me while i comfortably destroy you from the back of my board edge.

I dont even know why anyone would even want to make that comparison.

So now i sound like an old school playe rhtat blah blah blah lolz or someone that bought an army off ebay ooooh right because i dont have a ton of battle reports winning with my necrons posted here on dakka from the previous codex. Yeah that's def not me

Nor do I own 3,500 of necrons with different models(some new some old) to play that I actually hit the tabletop and play every week, nope that's not me.

I'm the guy making argument based on internet theories and word of mouth.

We should call this Forumhammer 40k.

As for what someone said earlier about particle whip and flux arc not being able to fire at the same time. I've never said that they did, i said the monolith has the option to fire them and that 4 flux arcs do damage comparable to 2 ABs shooting at infantry.

Do the math hammer and see for yourself again
1 Monolith
Flux Arc vs T4
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 2 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 1 Kills

Flux Arc vs T3
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 3 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 2 Kills

Show me your mathhammer for 2 ABs versus the common infantry we see.

Cryage wrote:I still would rather take my 8, twinlinked shots from 2 Annihilation barges vs 1 shot from the monolith.

66% chance the monolith will scatter
Think its something like 3 inches will make the center hole move off of a land raider completely, making the str of the blast only half. You then need to roll less than a 7 on a 2d6 to get that center hole over the land raider. You then need to roll an 8 to glance, so thats a 1/3 chance since you get to roll a 2d6.

I'm using a land raider since its a big target. Take something like a rhino, and your chance for missing completely goes up by a full inch, so you need to roll less than a 6 on a 2d6 when you scatter.

Not worth it IMO.

BS 4 means you'll have to roll an 8 on 2D6 to not hit. Statistically 7 is the most commonly rolled number on 2D6. thus you have better than 50% chance to hit as I pointed out it should be something like 55% chance to hit or something i know i've seen the math hammer done on blasts vs vehicles before.

All of you that are trying to make it seem like the monolith is terrible are either not using the proper chance to hit or the proper chance to penetrate...how convenient.

Twice as many pens with a 1/6 chance to wreck a vehicle is as good an unmodified penetration chart. Yes, you cannot explode a vehicle, but the additional results compensates for it imo.

The shame about all of this is that I'm one of the few people that is a really staunch defender of the Monolith. However, I believe in defending the Monolith using just a touch of reality, rather than frothing-at-the-mouth hubris.

Akaiyou wrote:1. Unless you are playing in tournaments ONLY most armies wont be choke full of melta guns. I play MEQ armies (look at my sig) and even I don't own so many meltas. You are also wrong that every unit will have melta in it, you will see a lot more missile launchers or equivalent and they wont be hurting monoliths, but they'll rape ABs. Also from my own MEQ playing experience getting a melta gun in range is NOT so easy you have to be within 6" remember? Otherwise that melta is useless and we have a whole army of stuff to prevent enemies from getting within 6" of the monolith do we not? Or are we just letting them waltz in there?? Even still my argument still holds true that anything that can get a lucky penetrating hit on a monolith will decimate ABs.

If your army is built around protecting your Monolith, then you've got a poor army build. The Monolith doesn't deliver enough offensive power on its own to warrant being treated as the Ark of the Covenant. Also, when was the last time you saw a unit of Grey Hunters that did not have melta in it? Or BA combat marines?

Akaiyou wrote:2. Please show me the math on this. ABs are not likely to be destroying AV 11 with only S7 and AP -

4 Shots at BS 4 = 2.68 hits
TL re-roll 1.32 rolls = .88 more hits
Odds of rolling a 6 at least once during 5.32 rolls: 89% (1.78 more hits on average)
Total hits on average = 5.34
Str 7 vs AV 11:
1: no effect
2: no effect
3: no effect
4: glance
5: pen
6: pen
Odds of glancing at least: 50%
Odds of pen: 33%
Average rolls = 1.76 pens, or 2.67 glances or better.
Hence, on average you will do slightly better than 1 glance and 1 pen.

And I am well aware that you are shooting at -1 on the vehicle damage tables, however I never made any claims otherwise. I merely said that you will average a little better than 1 glance and 1 pen per round of shooting.

Akaiyou wrote:3. I play the hordies armies there is in 40k (again look at my sig). And yes we get cover saves pretty frequently in many different ways, some cover is always better than no cover. Rules state that the table should have 25% cover on it, and you get to decide where half of it is placed. There's no good reason why you shouldnt have some decent cover in every game unless again it's soem sort of tournament where they decide it for you and even then they always put in some good cover. The AB doesnt have the mobility to pick and choose fire lanes to deny cover without sacrificing a turn of shooting.

I think you're also forgetting that with the Annihilation Barge's lack of AP, cover means nothing to the Tesla guns. The Monolith, however, finds it AP3 largely unused in your description.

Akaiyou wrote:4. Tell that to all the terminators and special characters i've killed with it. Are you trying to take out monstrous creatures of something with it? Because it works perfectly fine against S3 and S4 models which the great majority of models in 40k are.

My monoliths have eaten a Calgar once, too. It's hilarious when it happens. However, the odds of the Monolith sucking up a MC is slim to none. I just don't envision a MC failing a Strength test that often, and I don't understand how you would even have a MC in range of the Roomba Door and expect the Monolith to survive. A MC with Str 7 + 2D6 will glance the Monolith on average, meaning if that MC gets 3 attacks it will on average deliver 1 glance and 1 pen to the Monolith.

Akaiyou wrote:5. Yeah you are correct 100%, but this also means the Monolith has superior LOS as it's tall enough to not be affected by other stuff that would grant cover to models beign hit by an AB's shots.

Considering you only need 50% of the model to be in cover, I think this situation is next to impossible considering the Annihilation Barge is on a stand, and the height difference is only about 1.5 inches to the jewel.

Akaiyou wrote:6. Agreed

7. Completely false, dedicated tank hunters...mmm it takes 27 lascannons at BS 4 to guarantee a kill against AV 14. It only takes 9 to gurantee a kill against AV 13 Open-Topped. That's a huge difference. 1 Monolith can take as much punishment as 3 ABs.

Your math does not resemble our Earth Math. The difference between AV 13 and AV 14 is 16.7% against anything rolling 1D6 for penetration. I won't argue that the Monolith is tougher, I'm just saying that if someone is using a unit that is dedicated to anti-tank, I think you're looking at a moot point. Anti-tank is called that for a reason. Str 8 melta means that on an average roll you get a pen on a Monolith (8 + 2D6 = 15)

Akaiyou wrote:8. Agreed

9. I mostly DS my Monoliths and do great. Unless they stall until turn 5 lol which sucks balls but otherwise the deep strike mechanism NEVER relied on protection against mishaps to be useful. The table is enormous and we have 24" weapons we dont need to be terribly close to stuff that will make us mishap. Assume that you'll roll a 7" scatter and choose a spot 8" away from anything that will make you mishap and you'll be fine. I almost never mishap and i deep strike all the time.

6"x6" Monlith, surrounded on all sides by 8" is a 22"x22" area. Considering the table is 48"x72", that's almost 1/2 of the table x 1/3 of the table, and you can't have any terrain in that zone. You are unlikely to find a spot that size, lacking any terrain, in order to safely deep strike the Monolith, unless you send it somewhere lacking any advantage to having used deep strike in the first place.

Akaiyou wrote:6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

...okay, if you're trolling here, then let me know and I will exalt this post as the funniest one I've read in months.

Akaiyou wrote:lol am i the one in denial or are you guys just feeding off internet babble?

First off again i repeat no way does AB compete with riflemen dreads

48" range hands down outclasses it
and it doesnt suffer from the ap -

I would love to play any of you with your ABs versus my psyriflemen dread and then we can compare. It'll take you 2 turns minimum to get anywhere near in range to shoot me while i comfortably destroy you from the back of my board edge.


I dont even know why anyone would even want to make that comparison.

You started this thread, please, re-read the title. it is 1x Monolith vs 2x Annihilation barges... so please drop the side argument... Nobody is contesting how awesome the Dread's are.

Do the math hammer and see for yourself again
1 Monolith
Flux Arc vs T4
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 2 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 1 Kills

Flux Arc vs T3
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 3 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 2 Kills

Show me your mathhammer for 2 ABs versus the common infantry we see.

2x Annihilation barges
8 shots bs 4, 5 hits, twin linked 2 more hits, so 7 hits total. That's 11 rolls, probably 2 6's in there, that is 11 hits total. Vs T3 & 4, need 2's to wound, 9 wounds.

Flux Arc vs T3 & 4
vs 6+ = 7-8 Kills
vs 5+ = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 4-5 Kills
vs 3+ = 3 Kills

Then a chance to arc out and hit any other units within 6" (33% chance with the 2 6's rolled above).

Yeah, i'll take my barges. Thanks

Oh, and by the way: please do not ever try to claim that 4x Flux Arcs can all hit the same unit. The Monolith must be surrounded by a single unit in order for that to take place.

Akaiyou wrote:As for what someone said earlier about particle whip and flux arc not being able to fire at the same time. I've never said that they did, i said the monolith has the option to fire them and that 4 flux arcs do damage comparable to 2 ABs shooting at infantry.

Do the math hammer and see for yourself again
1 Monolith
Flux Arc vs T4
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 2 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 1 Kills

Flux Arc vs T3
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 3 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 2 Kills

Show me your mathhammer for 2 ABs versus the common infantry we see.

Against T3 (ignores FNP), T4, or T5:
4 TL Shots at BS4 with Tesla rule = approximately 5.33 hits which equals 4.44 wounds before saves (armor or cover). Against 2+, 3+, or 4+, the results are the same. Against GEQ or Orks/Kroot you would see less kills, but cover is going to mitigate that difference somewhat. Also, the Tesla shots have a chance to bounce to other units which we don't take into consideration. Further... this was for ONE AB, so once the second AB is taken into account, the ABs have more firepower against common infantry.

@ Jihallah - Since it's quite clear that you want to be a douchebag then please explain because i obviously cant do math...where is that guy getting 9 shots from ???

Please review the forum rules. -Mannahnin
http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

I'm obviously too far beyond your level to comprehend

Also while we are at it the discussion has been how ABs and Monoliths compare against AV12 at the moment....how many AV12 vehicles do you own that are not wide enough to accomodate for 3" scatter?

3" scatter is regarded as the 'safe' zone to still have the center over the hull on all standard vehicles. Things like vypers/piranhas and walkers are not standard and not the subject of this AV12 discussion.

So get off your high horse mr you are being ridiculous.

Please review the forum rules. -Mannahnin
http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp

Vehicles have different dimensions, aim a blast on a hammerhead and if it scatters to the sides you have less room to hit the hull but scatter up or down and you'll still hit even if only part of the center is over the hull thats a hit. Theres no such thing as a partial hit anymore. You are either on or off the hull

Regardless the probability would still sit comfortably at near 50% and still has a 75% chance to glance with a 50% chance to pen AV 12.

This indisputably more damaging than all those AB shots that are likely to get shaken results over and over on the same vehicle.

ABs do NOT increase your chance to immobilize/armament destroy anything. They ONLY increase your chance at getting shaken results and reduce your chance to destroy.

I don't understand why you folk keep going on about how you will be reliably disabling it and hoping to kill it through disabling it multiple times. 2 monolith turns shooting it will all but guarantee to obliterate that tank.

And if they are all lined up thats even better when you scatter its not a miss it'll hit something else valuable.

Akaiyou wrote:What on earth is all that?? I did not understand it at all where are you getting 9 shots from anyway???? Please post clear math hammer next time.

Let me help you a bit.

2x TL Tesla Destructors

9 hits - I used an average of 9 hits after tesla (which is a bit low, but lets go with it: 8 TL BS 4 shots = 7.11 hits and at least one of those being a 6 adding 2 more hits with the Tesla rule)
16.67% chance to pen per shot / 16.67% chance to glance per shot

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 80.62%
Stunned: 40.22%
Weapon Destroyed: 40.22%
Immobilized: 22.40%
Wrecked: 22.40%
Explodes: 0%

Particle Whip

1 hit (actually, it's about 55% chance of getting a hit with scatter, but let's assume we are lucky)
25% chance to glance per shot / 50%to pen per shot (I did fail to take into account that it is ordnance the first run)

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 20.84%
Stunned: 12.5%
Weapon Destroyed: 12.5%
Immobilized: 12.5%
Wrecked: 8.34%
Explodes: 8.34%

It's a simple fact that the volume of fire vastly overcomes the lower str and AP-

Akaiyou wrote:Regardless the probability would still sit comfortably at near 50% and still has a 75% chance to glance with a 50% chance to pen AV 12.

This indisputably more damaging than all those AB shots that are likely to get shaken results over and over on the same vehicle.

ABs do NOT increase your chance to immobilize/armament destroy anything. They ONLY increase your chance at getting shaken results and reduce your chance to destroy.

I don't understand why you folk keep going on about how you will be reliably disabling it and hoping to kill it through disabling it multiple times. 2 monolith turns shooting it will all but guarantee to obliterate that tank.

And if they are all lined up thats even better when you scatter its not a miss it'll hit something else valuable.

Basic math: You are saying that a Particle Whip a 50% chance to hit and a 50% chance to pen AV12. Let's go with that for the moment. That's an expected value of .25 Pens. That is basically .08333 chance to wreck/explode.
A SINGLE AB has an expected value of .885 Pens with a -1 to the chart. At a 1/6 chance to wreck you still have an expected .14 chance to wreck it. A SINGLE BARGE has a better chance to wreck an AV12 vehicle than a Particle Whip... using your own numbers.

Gornall just lawyered this thread.

Um, a single Str 8 Particle Whip doesn't have a 50% chance to pen AV 12. It has a 50% chance to glance AV 12.

It actually only has about a 42% chance to pen AV 12

azazel the cat wrote:The shame about all of this is that I'm one of the few people that is a really staunch defender of the Monolith. However, I believe in defending the Monolith using just a touch of reality, rather than frothing-at-the-mouth hubris.

Akaiyou wrote:1. Unless you are playing in tournaments ONLY most armies wont be choke full of melta guns. I play MEQ armies (look at my sig) and even I don't own so many meltas. You are also wrong that every unit will have melta in it, you will see a lot more missile launchers or equivalent and they wont be hurting monoliths, but they'll rape ABs. Also from my own MEQ playing experience getting a melta gun in range is NOT so easy you have to be within 6" remember? Otherwise that melta is useless and we have a whole army of stuff to prevent enemies from getting within 6" of the monolith do we not? Or are we just letting them waltz in there?? Even still my argument still holds true that anything that can get a lucky penetrating hit on a monolith will decimate ABs.

If your army is built around protecting your Monolith, then you've got a poor army build. The Monolith doesn't deliver enough offensive power on its own to warrant being treated as the Ark of the Covenant. Also, when was the last time you saw a unit of Grey Hunters that did not have melta in it? Or BA combat marines?

Akaiyou wrote:2. Please show me the math on this. ABs are not likely to be destroying AV 11 with only S7 and AP -

4 Shots at BS 4 = 2.68 hits
TL re-roll 1.32 rolls = .88 more hits
Odds of rolling a 6 at least once during 5.32 rolls: 89% (1.78 more hits on average)
Total hits on average = 5.34
Str 7 vs AV 11:
1: no effect
2: no effect
3: no effect
4: glance
5: pen
6: pen
Odds of glancing at least: 50%
Odds of pen: 33%
Average rolls = 1.76 pens, or 2.67 glances or better.
Hence, on average you will do slightly better than 1 glance and 1 pen.

And I am well aware that you are shooting at -1 on the vehicle damage tables, however I never made any claims otherwise. I merely said that you will average a little better than 1 glance and 1 pen per round of shooting.

Akaiyou wrote:3. I play the hordies armies there is in 40k (again look at my sig). And yes we get cover saves pretty frequently in many different ways, some cover is always better than no cover. Rules state that the table should have 25% cover on it, and you get to decide where half of it is placed. There's no good reason why you shouldnt have some decent cover in every game unless again it's soem sort of tournament where they decide it for you and even then they always put in some good cover. The AB doesnt have the mobility to pick and choose fire lanes to deny cover without sacrificing a turn of shooting.

I think you're also forgetting that with the Annihilation Barge's lack of AP, cover means nothing to the Tesla guns. The Monolith, however, finds it AP3 largely unused in your description.

Akaiyou wrote:4. Tell that to all the terminators and special characters i've killed with it. Are you trying to take out monstrous creatures of something with it? Because it works perfectly fine against S3 and S4 models which the great majority of models in 40k are.

My monoliths have eaten a Calgar once, too. It's hilarious when it happens. However, the odds of the Monolith sucking up a MC is slim to none. I just don't envision a MC failing a Strength test that often, and I don't understand how you would even have a MC in range of the Roomba Door and expect the Monolith to survive. A MC with Str 7 + 2D6 will glance the Monolith on average, meaning if that MC gets 3 attacks it will on average deliver 1 glance and 1 pen to the Monolith.

Akaiyou wrote:5. Yeah you are correct 100%, but this also means the Monolith has superior LOS as it's tall enough to not be affected by other stuff that would grant cover to models beign hit by an AB's shots.

Considering you only need 50% of the model to be in cover, I think this situation is next to impossible considering the Annihilation Barge is on a stand, and the height difference is only about 1.5 inches to the jewel.

Akaiyou wrote:6. Agreed

7. Completely false, dedicated tank hunters...mmm it takes 27 lascannons at BS 4 to guarantee a kill against AV 14. It only takes 9 to gurantee a kill against AV 13 Open-Topped. That's a huge difference. 1 Monolith can take as much punishment as 3 ABs.

Your math does not resemble our Earth Math. The difference between AV 13 and AV 14 is 16.7% against anything rolling 1D6 for penetration. I won't argue that the Monolith is tougher, I'm just saying that if someone is using a unit that is dedicated to anti-tank, I think you're looking at a moot point. Anti-tank is called that for a reason. Str 8 melta means that on an average roll you get a pen on a Monolith (8 + 2D6 = 15)

Akaiyou wrote:8. Agreed

9. I mostly DS my Monoliths and do great. Unless they stall until turn 5 lol which sucks balls but otherwise the deep strike mechanism NEVER relied on protection against mishaps to be useful. The table is enormous and we have 24" weapons we dont need to be terribly close to stuff that will make us mishap. Assume that you'll roll a 7" scatter and choose a spot 8" away from anything that will make you mishap and you'll be fine. I almost never mishap and i deep strike all the time.

6"x6" Monlith, surrounded on all sides by 8" is a 22"x22" area. Considering the table is 48"x72", that's almost 1/2 of the table x 1/3 of the table, and you can't have any terrain in that zone. You are unlikely to find a spot that size, lacking any terrain, in order to safely deep strike the Monolith, unless you send it somewhere lacking any advantage to having used deep strike in the first place.

Akaiyou wrote:6. Deep Striking is a bonus option, if you ever watch the tv show DEADLIEST WARRIOR you would also agree that whoever has more tactical options has the edge, wether or not its used. More options is always better.

...okay, if you're trolling here, then let me know and I will exalt this post as the funniest one I've read in months.

1. You are out of touch with reality if you think the 2 ABs are superior.

2. NOTICE that i said show me how they can DESTROY AV 11...why are you convenientnly NOT showing me that? Oooh maybe its because all you are getting out of all those shots are a ton of shaken results? Yep...that sounds about right

3. Thus the monolith has the flux arc which gives it the options that the AB doesnt have. And when you do get a clean shot the particle whip is more damaging to practically any unit type. The monolith is tall enough that it can get better LOS than a ABs

4. You seem to have a problem with reading comprehension here, I was asking HIM if he was trying to fry MCs with the portal of exile in other words i was telling him that was a bad idea and no wonder it would never work for him. However against S3 and S4 models the portal of exile is great and where the hell are you getting this calculation that the chance is slim to none??? If they are close enough you only need move up get them within 1" and portal of exile their faces off, S4 models have a 33% chance of being removed and S3 models have a 50% chance of being removed. You can annhilate seer councils with that

Im not even a math major but jeezus this is simply math people...stop claiming stuff without actually using it or working out the probabilities on it. smh...slim to none...smh....

5. DId you actually measure the height difference or is this another one of those 'slim to none' arguments here? The way i see it the monolith has much better LOS and even 1.5 inches of extra height works wonders in denying cover ats basically an infantry model's worth.

6. My math is wrong? this coming from the guy that says you have a slim to none chance of killing outright a S4 model with portal of exile? Show me your math then how many lascannons can a monolith take to before it gets destroyed? Matter of fact since you are so smart show me every single AT weapon in the game and aim iat at AV 14 monolith and Quantum Shielded Annhilation Barge.

Please take your time i'll wait lets see if the monolith can't take a pounding better than 2 or possibly even 3 ABs from every single AT weapon out there.

7. Terrain doesnt make you mishap on deep strike. It's just a dangerous terrain test.so wtf are you on about? You can land anywhere you want as long as its not off the table or within 1" of an enemy model.

@ Cryage - I didnt bring up the rifleman argument one of you guys did, so i will respond to it because it's a silly comparison like mostof what you guys have presented.

- Do proper math hammer im getting tired of how you people conveniently leave out details

9 wounds and the opponent gets no saves???? That's so convenienetly dimissed you people are making me sick with this crap if you cant make a fair argument then dont make any and go entertain youself elsewhere.


TL 8 Shots from barge = 10.66 hits = 8.83 wounds

vs 6+ = 7.35 Kills
vs 5+ = 5.88 Kills
vs 4+ = 4.41 Kills
vs 3+ = 2.94 Kills

compared to
T4
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 4 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 2 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 4 Wounds = 1 Kills

T3
vs 6+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 5+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 6 Kills
vs 4+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 3 Kills
vs 3+ = 12 shots = 8 Hits = 6 Wounds = 2 Kills


This is comparable anti infantry power. If the ABs could do twice as much damage then they would be the def winner but the monolith proves that it can keep up specially against T3. And still has the option to lay waste to anything outside of cover with the particle whip which the tesla destructor does not have

azazel the cat wrote:Oh, and by the way: please do not ever try to claim that 4x Flux Arcs can all hit the same unit. The Monolith must be surrounded by a single unit in order for that to take place.

- in that case i CAN claim that it 'can' hit a single unit with all 4. So you just contradicted yourself also dont forget the flux arcs are spoonsons you can rotate them, its not hard to get 3 to aim at the same target. if from the tip of the gun they all have a 45 degree ark. Just pivot the monolith and voila. In any case you are all too focused on the flux arc im using the flux arc as an example to show that the monolith CAN shoot at multiple targets which is the highest advantage the 2 ABs have and that it CAN do similar damage to mulitple infantry units comparable to what 2 ABs can do.


That's the point dont miss it



Automatically Appended Next Post:

azazel the cat wrote:Um, a single Str 8 Particle Whip doesn't have a 50% chance to pen AV 12. It has a 50% chance to glance AV 12.

It actually only has about a 42% chance to pen AV 12

ORDNANCE STRENGTH 8

Akaiyou: Maelstrom808 has done the math and shown that you are incorrect. Everyone should defer that Maelstrom808's math. Akaiyou, regardless of your inability to do the actual math on the tesla destructors, it has been demonstrated that the 2 ABs are clearly superior to the Monolith when firing at AV12 targets. Av 11 targets will produce the same winner.

You are correct in that there will be many shaken results when firing the tesla destructors at vehicles. In fact, there is an 80.62% chance to get at least one shaken result from the 2 ABs firing at an Av12 vehicle, which is in fact insanely high. However, the chance of scoring at least one wrecked result from the 2 ABs are better than the chance the Monolith will score a wrecked or explode result. The math has been done, you are wrong. Please stop asserting the contrary point or post the math demonstrating why this is false.

Move on to arguing other points or conceding the debate.

Akaiyou wrote:
2. NOTICE that i said show me how they can DESTROY AV 11...why are you convenientnly NOT showing me that? Oooh maybe its because all you are getting out of all those shots are a ton of shaken results? Yep...that sounds about right

I did for AV12. It only gets better for the ABs against AV11.

Yeah, Ordnance Str 8 means you get a 50% chance to glance AV 12. Ya see, you roll 2D6 and pick the best result. So average a 3 and a 4. You take the 4. 8 + 4 = 12

And I won't dispute that the Roomba Door of the Monolith is great a sucking up squads of Str 4 infantry. But I said it will almost never happen. Because the Monolith is big and slow, and the only reason it will ever be right beside enemy infantry, is because the infantry choose to personally hand-deliver meltabombs to the Monolith. You will almost never get the Monolith that close to an opponent's units unless your opponent wants you to.

And for the flux arcs, your argument is just stupid. Technically, it is mathematically possible for your opponent to roll only 1s, all game long. But I'll put any value of money down saying that it will never happen during any game that I watch. If you want a reasonable comparison, you should compare the Flux Arcs when you only use 2, as it is extremely uncommon (to the point where it's almost fictitious) to hit the same unit with 3 Flux Arcs in the same turn.

This is why I said that I defend the Monolith with my feet grounded in reality. Your Monolith dreams don't really work out the way you claim in the real world.

TY Dracos

As shown, the ABs have a better chance of destroying the target outright, and failing that, they have a better chance of doing at least SOMETHING to the target...an immobile transport is almost as good as destroyed, a tank that can't shoot is almost as good as destroyed...and incapacitating them for a turn is better than doing nothing. It's a basic truth of warhammer: single blasts suck at AT duties. They can get better if you can get twin-linking involved, or get some sort of volume of blasts; but generally speaking, volume of fire will always win out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vs AV 11

2x TL Tesla Destructors

9 hits - I used an average of 9 hits after tesla (which is a bit low, but lets go with it: 8 TL BS 4 shots = 7.11 hits and at least one of those being a 6 adding 2 more hits with the Tesla rule)
16.67% chance to pen per shot / 33.33% chance to glance per shot

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 89.56%
Stunned: 54.30%
Weapon Destroyed: 54.30%
Immobilized: 40.22%
Wrecked: 40.22%
Explodes: 0%

Particle Whip

1 hit (actually, it's about 55% chance of getting a hit with scatter, but let's assume we are lucky)
22.22% chance to glance per shot / 66.67%to pen per shot

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 22.22%
Stunned: 14.82%
Weapon Destroyed: 14.82%
Immobilized: 14.82%
Wrecked: 11.11%
Explodes: 11.11%

Maelstrom808 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:What on earth is all that?? I did not understand it at all where are you getting 9 shots from anyway???? Please post clear math hammer next time.

Let me help you a bit.

2x TL Tesla Destructors

9 hits - I used an average of 9 hits after tesla (which is a bit low, but lets go with it: 8 TL BS 4 shots = 7.11 hits and at least one of those being a 6 adding 2 more hits with the Tesla rule)
16.67% chance to pen per shot / 16.67% chance to glance per shot

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 80.62%
Stunned: 40.22%
Weapon Destroyed: 40.22%
Immobilized: 22.40%
Wrecked: 22.40%
Explodes: 0%

Particle Whip

1 hit (actually, it's about 55% chance of getting a hit with scatter, but let's assume we are lucky)
25% chance to glance per shot / 50%to pen per shot (I did fail to take into account that it is ordnance the first run)

To get at least one of a given result, your chances are:
Shaken: 20.84%
Stunned: 12.5%
Weapon Destroyed: 12.5%
Immobilized: 12.5%
Wrecked: 8.34%
Explodes: 8.34%

It's a simple fact that the volume of fire vastly overcomes the lower str and AP-

This is more understandable.

However from all those tesla shots only 3.5 will get to see the damage table. How are you getting 22% chance to wreck from half of the 3.5 hits being pen? All of those glances will most likely end in shaken by a large margin and the pens mixed in doesnt vastly improve the chance of other results unless you are assuming a lot of those are going to be penetrating hits which is unrealistic as you only pen with 1/6 you are counting on the odds being in your favor with the pens to boost the results??

75% chance to damage with 1 shot no minuses
or
33% chance to damage from several shots with high degree of shaken results

I rather destroy a transport than just shake it.

But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

azazel the cat wrote:Yeah, Ordnance Str 8 means you get a 50% chance to glance AV 12. Ya see, you roll 2D6 and pick the best result. So average a 3 and a 4. You take the 4. 8 + 4 = 12

And I won't dispute that the Roomba Door of the Monolith is great a sucking up squads of Str 4 infantry. But I said it will almost never happen. Because the Monolith is big and slow, and the only reason it will ever be right beside enemy infantry, is because the infantry choose to personally hand-deliver meltabombs to the Monolith. You will almost never get the Monolith that close to an opponent's units unless your opponent wants you to.

And for the flux arcs, your argument is just stupid. Technically, it is mathematically possible for your opponent to roll only 1s, all game long. But I'll put any value of money down saying that it will never happen during any game that I watch. If you want a reasonable comparison, you should compare the Flux Arcs when you only use 2, as it is extremely uncommon (to the point where it's almost fictitious) to hit the same unit with 3 Flux Arcs in the same turn.

This is why I said that I defend the Monolith with my feet grounded in reality. Your Monolith dreams don't really work out the way you claim in the real world.

You do realize that there's more than 3s and 4s on dice right??

You glance on a 4. So technically you get a 4+ twin linked which = 75% chance to glance at least
you pen on a 5. this means 5+ TL which is 50% chance to pen.

Everyone dial back the hostility. Any further rude posts in this thread will result in suspensions.

Akaiyou wrote:But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

Fair enough. That seems to be the main trade-off with the two... The Monolith can stand up much better against non-melta weapons than ABs can, but the ABs have more firepower against MOST (not all) targets.

Well, this thread had some interesting results while I was gone.

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

Fair enough. That seems to be the main trade-off with the two... The Monolith can stand up much better against non-melta weapons than ABs can, but the ABs have more firepower against MOST (not all) targets.

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

Akaiyou wrote:

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

Mmm. . . Can attack anything, yes. Most firepower, no.

We've seen all the numbers here. Annihilation Barges do more damage to infantry in general, though the Monolith is close; they're better at taking down AV 11 and AV 12 vehicles. The only thing Monoliths do better is attacking AV 13 and 14 vehicles. . . and they're so bad at that, I'd say that neither Annihilation Barges nor Monoliths have any business trying it.

Akaiyou wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

Fair enough. That seems to be the main trade-off with the two... The Monolith can stand up much better against non-melta weapons than ABs can, but the ABs have more firepower against MOST (not all) targets.

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

The monolith only has more firepower against:

1. Non-TEQ infantry outside of cover... as long as they are in a good pieplate formation
2. AV13-14 (which it is not that great at hurting)
3. MEQs with FNP

Against anything in cover (including MEQ units that do not have 6 guys under the pieplate), or any non-AV13+ vehicle, ABs do more damage point for point. That means that both units are situational.... ABs are better in some lists and Monoliths are better in others. Neither one is a must take, but I would argue that ABs are easier to shoehorn into most lists than a Monolith.

EDIT: Forgot about FNP

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

Mmm. . . Can attack anything, yes. Most firepower, no.

We've seen all the numbers here. Annihilation Barges do more damage to any infantry, though the Monolith is close; they're better at taking down AV 11 and AV 12 vehicles. The only thing Monoliths do better is attacking AV 13 and 14 vehicles. . . and they're so bad at that, I'd say that neither Annihilation Barges nor Monoliths have any business trying it.

I can agree with that statement, in which case this just begs the question who's better at dealing with armored infantry??

And i think there the monolith wins hands down. Not to mention that it can ID T4 models. and RFP S4 Models with Eternal Warrior. That's gotta count for something! More options = More kill power


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:But I concede your mathhammer does seem correct and as I said i'm not a math major but I do understand basic probability. So i take solace in knowing that I can explode a vehicle and target all AV values while having longer staying power to actually keep doing damage.

Fair enough. That seems to be the main trade-off with the two... The Monolith can stand up much better against non-melta weapons than ABs can, but the ABs have more firepower against MOST (not all) targets.

I still disagree there the monolith has the most fire power against 'most' targets.

Because as all of you keep bringing up in the melta argument. Most armies out there are 3+ saves lists the monolith has the ability to threaten all targets which was my main point that i was trying to make when everything derailed.

It can attafck anything and do damage regardless not even terminators are 100% safe.

It has 3 different attack modes and one that can never be destroyed (portal)

The monolith only has more firepower against:

1. Non-TEQ infantry outside of cover... as long as they are in a good pieplate formation
2. AV13-14 (which it is not that great at hurting)

Against anything in cover (including MEQ units that do not have 6 guys under the pieplate), or any non-AV13+ vehicle, ABs do more damage point for point. That means that both units are situational.... ABs are better in some lists and Monoliths are better in others. Neither one is a must take, but I would argue that ABs are easier to shoehorn into most lists than a Monolith.

Even in cover unless you are using a lot of bunkers and area terrain those MEQ that are over abundant in the metagame will only be getting a 4+ cover save or 5+.

This will do significantly more damage from a Monolith's particle whip forcing them to save on 4s or 5s than the ABs unloading and only getting 2 kills from the 3+ saves.

The monolith wins against MEQ even if it only hits 4 marines that's at the very least a draw. And with how big the large blast is you can more often than not get more than 4 guys under.

The thing is this: Monoliths are MUCH better at killing MEQ in the open, and definately against FnP, but who in their right mind is going to leave their MEQ out in the open if they are threatened by S8 AP3 large blasts? They will mostly be in cover, and spread out as soon as the mono becomes a threat. At that point, the ABs again start to at least pull even (10 marines in cover, the 2x ABs are equal to the monolith being able to cover 6 marines with the template..any less and the ABs pull ahead)

The another thing is while yes, the monolith is a much hardier target than the ABs, you start to introduce target saturation with the ABs. If they opposition has only a few units that can deal with AV 13-14, they have to either divide that fire up (reducing their changes of doing anything to either unit) or focus it on one target (leaving the other free to cause another turn's worth of damage).

I think Monoliths have a place, but the same thing from the old dex holds true, even moreso with the loss of the old living metal: You can't take just one. You have to have a list built around taking full advantage of what the Monolith offers: rangeless teleporting, mobile LOS terrain, and provocing the "OMG must shoot the big expensive model!!!" reaction from your opponent. You don't take them for their fire support, anymore than you would take a ghost ark for it's fire support. The mono's weapons are simply a bonus to the other qualities it has. The monolith just is not going to mesh as well into most lists as other, cheaper heavy support options.

Maelstrom808 wrote:The thing is this: Monoliths are MUCH better at killing MEQ in the open, and definately against FnP, but who in their right mind is going to leave their MEQ out in the open if they are threatened by S8 AP3 large blasts? They will mostly be in cover, and spread out as soon as the mono becomes a threat. At that point, the ABs again start to at least pull even (10 marines in cover, the 2x ABs are equal to the monolith being able to cover 6 marines with the template..any less and the ABs pull ahead)

The another thing is while yes, the monolith is a much hardier target than the ABs, you start to introduce target saturation with the ABs. If they opposition has only a few units that can deal with AV 13-14, they have to either divide that fire up (reducing their changes of doing anything to either unit) or focus it on one target (leaving the other free to cause another turn's worth of damage).

I think Monoliths have a place, but the same thing from the old dex holds true, even moreso with the loss of the old living metal: You can't take just one. You have to have a list built around taking full advantage of what the Monolith offers: rangeless teleporting, mobile LOS terrain, and provocing the "OMG must shoot the big expensive model!!!" reaction from your opponent. You don't take them for their fire support, anymore than you would take a ghost ark for it's fire support. The mono's weapons are simply a bonus to the other qualities it has. The monolith just is not going to mesh as well into most lists as other, cheaper heavy support options.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say from the start, and I agree 100% with you.

Akaiyou wrote: Even in cover unless you are using a lot of bunkers and area terrain those MEQ that are over abundant in the metagame will only be getting a 4+ cover save or 5+.

This will do significantly more damage from a Monolith's particle whip forcing them to save on 4s or 5s than the ABs unloading and only getting 2 kills from the 3+ saves.

The monolith wins against MEQ even if it only hits 4 marines that's at the very least a draw. And with how big the large blast is you can more often than not get more than 4 guys under.

Two ABs cause 8.83 wounds against MEQ. With a 3+ save that translates to 2.94 dead Marines.

A Particle whip shot hits 6 Marines and wound 5. That is 2.5 saves from cover. So actually it takes more Marines under the whip to pull even.

Gornall wrote:Two ABs cause 8.83 wounds against MEQ. With a 3+ save that translates to 2.94 dead Marines.

7.5 wounds, assuming 9 hits, which puts them almost exactly even..but the point still stands.

Maelstrom808 wrote:The thing is this: Monoliths are MUCH better at killing MEQ in the open, and definately against FnP, but who in their right mind is going to leave their MEQ out in the open if they are threatened by S8 AP3 large blasts? They will mostly be in cover, and spread out as soon as the mono becomes a threat. At that point, the ABs again start to at least pull even (10 marines in cover, the 2x ABs are equal to the monolith being able to cover 6 marines with the template..any less and the ABs pull ahead)

The another thing is while yes, the monolith is a much hardier target than the ABs, you start to introduce target saturation with the ABs. If they opposition has only a few units that can deal with AV 13-14, they have to either divide that fire up (reducing their changes of doing anything to either unit) or focus it on one target (leaving the other free to cause another turn's worth of damage).

I think Monoliths have a place, but the same thing from the old dex holds true, even moreso with the loss of the old living metal: You can't take just one. You have to have a list built around taking full advantage of what the Monolith offers: rangeless teleporting, mobile LOS terrain, and provocing the "OMG must shoot the big expensive model!!!" reaction from your opponent. You don't take them for their fire support, anymore than you would take a ghost ark for it's fire support. The mono's weapons are simply a bonus to the other qualities it has. The monolith just is not going to mesh as well into most lists as other, cheaper heavy support options.

Show me the math hammer since urs is better than mine for 6 marines in cover being shot by 2 tesla destructors and 1 particle whip. Monolith should have the advantage there from my estimate. as long as the monolith can wound 4 MEQ even in cover, it should have the advantage as thats the point where it should break even.

As for marines not coming out of their transports. well not EVERY MEQ list has their units in transports, long fangs for example are never shooting you from inside the transport. Transport rush is common place and are we assuming that we have nothing in our list that can wreck that transport??

At the moment your argument is 'well the MEQ will never be out on the field to be hit'
where the realitiy is that current meta is transport spam fest usually rushing and sniping out each other. In a tournament setting a Necron player would prepare for such an event accordingly and bring a ton of can openers and then MEQ are easy pickings for the monolith.

Also i want to note that im not solely discussing things on a tournament setting even though by nature the conversation will drift there, most people wont just transport spam because its expensive to get all that stuff and in standard games you dont want to be the douche. So you'll find loads of MEQ out in the open.

Howver i do agree that usually they will spread out their formations to minimize blast damage, it doesnt mean that they can avoid it entirely however.

So i think my argument that the monolith beign able to better deal with 4+ saves and lower being better still holds. Not to mention ID anything T4 which goes a looooong way.

Biker Nobz, Eldar Bikers, Tyranid Warriors, so many great targets to pick off with a monolith and severaly cripple an enemy army. The ABs cannot do the same level of damage when you expand the range of targets

EDIT: Alright so must nail 6 on to wound to come out on top instead of the 4 i estimated.

Mostly math here:
How many hits do I get with twin-linked telsa?

Let's say you take 36 shots (because mutliple of 6 make it easy with rerolls).
24 hits, +12 bonus hits from 6's = 36 hits.
12 missed get re-rolled (twin-linked), generating another 8 hits + 4 bonus hits = 12 hits from re-rolls.
36 hits (initial roll) + 12 hits (from rerolls) = 48 hits from 36 shots.
That means, you average 1.33 hits from every twin-linked telsa shot.

Two AB's toss out 8 shots. That averages 10.67 hits.


Now, lets look at the monolith.
1/3rd hit (as in scatter die HIT).
2/3rds scatter, at which point the exerise melts down.
The size and shape of the target suddenly matter, as does the direction of scatter. While this can by calculated for a single target, what would that target be?

What is AV12? Dreadnoughts (very small footprint), Wave Serpeants (who gain the field vs the monolith), Devilfish, Storm Raven? I'd discount side armor shots, neither has the speed to reliably get side armor.



The biggest flaw in the 1 mono vs 2 AB is that you have a hard limit of 3 heavy support choices.
If I could take 2 AB for 1 heavy slot I would take 6 barges!


For the Rifle dread vs AB, I wouldn't count on 48" of shooting in an army with so much night.

-Matt

When I say in the open, I mean not in cover. My argument is the marines will rarely be out of cover. Transports are another situation altogether..and really a list that doesn't rely on transports is going to be even more heavily reliant on being in cover. Anyway, the math:

2x TL Tesla Destructors vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (not that it matters since their armor save is better)

9 hits
7.5 wounds (83.33% chance to wound)
5 saves (66.67% chance to save)
2.5 dead marines

1x Particle Whip vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (6 under the blast marker)

6 hits
5 wounds (83.33% chance to wound)
2.5 saves (50% chance to save)
2.5 dead marines

And really, if you want to do any of the math yourself: http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php

That is a wonderful and reliable little tool.

Akaiyou wrote:Show me the math hammer since urs is better than mine for 6 marines in cover being shot by 2 tesla destructors and 1 particle whip. Monolith should have the advantage there from my estimate. as long as the monolith can wound 4 MEQ even in cover, it should have the advantage as thats the point where it should break even.

As for marines not coming out of their transports. well not EVERY MEQ list has their units in transports, long fangs for example are never shooting you from inside the transport. Transport rush is common place and are we assuming that we have nothing in our list that can wreck that transport??

At the moment your argument is 'well the MEQ will never be out on the field to be hit'
where the realitiy is that current meta is transport spam fest usually rushing and sniping out each other. In a tournament setting a Necron player would prepare for such an event accordingly and bring a ton of can openers and then MEQ are easy pickings for the monolith.

Also i want to note that im not solely discussing things on a tournament setting even though by nature the conversation will drift there, most people wont just transport spam because its expensive to get all that stuff and in standard games you dont want to be the douche. So you'll find loads of MEQ out in the open.

Howver i do agree that usually they will spread out their formations to minimize blast damage, it doesnt mean that they can avoid it entirely however.

So i think my argument that the monolith beign able to better deal with 4+ saves and lower being better still holds. Not to mention ID anything T4 which goes a looooong way.

Biker Nobz, Eldar Bikers, Tyranid Warriors, so many great targets to pick off with a monolith and severaly cripple an enemy army. The ABs cannot do the same level of damage when you expand the range of targets

EDIT: Alright so must nail 6 on to wound to come out on top instead of the 4 i estimated.

I'll be honest in that I have not focused on multi-wound T4 models. I simply don't see them that often where I play, unless they are Draigowing. Against single wound models though, the Particle Whip is ONLY better than two ABs when:

In cover: (Taking the number of expected dead models from the ABs divided by the Particle Whips 5/6 chance to wound.)
4+ through 6+: 9+ Infantry under the template
3+ Saves: 6+ Infantry under the template
2+ Saves: 9+ Infantry under the template

Out of cover: (Taking the number of expected dead models from the ABs divided by the Particle Whips 5/6 chance to wound.)
6+: 8+ Infantry under the template
5+: 7+ Infantry under the template
4+: 5+ Infantry under the template
3+: 3+ Infantry under the template
2+: 9+ Infantry under the template

So the particle whip performs better against MEQs out of cover or multi-wound/FNP T4 models. Against anything else, you need lots of guys under the blast template to keep up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Maelstrom808 wrote:Anyway, the math:

2x TL Tesla Destructors vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (not that it matters since their armor save is better)

9 hits

Two TL Tesla Destructors deal 10.533 hits.

Maelstrom808 wrote:When I say in the open, I mean not in cover. My argument is the marines will rarely be out of cover. Transports are another situation altogether..and really a list that doesn't rely on transports is going to be even more heavily reliant on being in cover. Anyway, the math:

2x TL Tesla Destructors vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (not that it matters since their armor save is better)

9 hits
7.5 wounds (83.33% chance to wound)
5 saves (66.67% chance to save)
2.5 dead marines

1x Particle Whip vs 10 marines in 4+ cover (6 under the blast marker)

6 hits
5 wounds (83.33% chance to wound)
2.5 saves (50% chance to save)
2.5 dead marines

And really, if you want to do any of the math yourself: http://www.heresy-online.net/combatcalculator/shooting.php

That is a wonderful and reliable little tool.

-bows-

Dude ive been looking for one of those calculators for 5th ed for the longest

I had one for 4th ed called the killing power calculator but it never got updated and became obsolete so thank you very much for that link. Feel free to share any other such useful tools

Also on that breakdown of damage in and out of cover this is what i mean that the monolith is more versatile.

Flux arc against units savign on 5+/6+
Particle whip against 4+/3+
Portal of Exile against 2+

the monolith should pull ahead against 4+/3+ as its not too hard to get at least 5 guys under the template. It lags behind against the low save units but hey it still does comparable damage does it not? and lastly the teslas versus terminator armor and the like doesnt really cut it, i dont think anyone will actualy aim at them with it too frequently where as the portal of exile can deal with them easier if you can maanage the feat of getting them within its range

I concede that the ABs together are much better than i originally gave them credit for but i just think the monolith has the edge in versatility where as in kill power they seem to be more evenly split into one being good against one thing and the other being good against another thing wether infantry or tanks.

So how about we all agree that 1 Monolith ~ 2 Annhilation Barges.

Admittedly I only own 1 AB so that in part is why ive seen lack luster results, 2 ABs give pretty decent results consistently but cut that in half and its like 'jeez this thing doesnt do anything' which has been my experience every time i run it and even then i keep putting it into my lists hoping that it'll change my mind through further play testing.

In any case I think my goal here has been solidified in dimissing the claims that the monolith is so terrible by comparison the barges which is one of the things that was pissing me off. And through this discussion I believe its been proven that at the very least they are interchangeable.

And the answer shoudlnt always be 'toss in some ABs!' nor 'get rid of that monolith and toss in some ABs!'

Looks about right. The only reason to take a Monolith in this edition is if you have some very strong infantry units that could benefit heavily from the portal. And if you are doing that, then you should probably be taking several.

Losing S9 and the AP1 hit nerfed it's AV firepower substantially, while the loss of Living Metal made it meltabait. It really should have been another 20-30 points cheaper. What you are getting is a basic Leman Russ with better side armor and no chance of ever getting a cover save. And shorter range. You *have* to leverage the portal to make it worthwhile over the other HS slots.

The Grog wrote:Looks about right. The only reason to take a Monolith in this edition is if you have some very strong infantry units that could benefit heavily from the portal. And if you are doing that, then you should probably be taking several.

Losing S9 and the AP1 hit nerfed it's AV firepower substantially, while the loss of Living Metal made it meltabait. It really should have been another 20-30 points cheaper. What you are getting is a basic Leman Russ with better side armor and no chance of ever getting a cover save. And shorter range. You *have* to leverage the portal to make it worthwhile over the other HS slots.

I agree with all that, thats why i mention the portals uses.

However I do think that the monolith has a place on any list since you can teleport any necron unit thats not a vehicle through. Unless you are using VoD Night Scythes en masse or something other you'll find that portal to be extremely useful specially if you are running a c'tan which is on the other side of the table.

I think the 200 pts is worth it, it can kill stuff and synergizes with the rest of the army thanks to the portal always being an option for as long as it's alive.

Akaiyou wrote:I concede that the ABs together are much better than i originally gave them credit for but i just think the monolith has the edge in versatility where as in kill power they seem to be more evenly split into one being good against one thing and the other being good against another thing wether infantry or tanks.

So how about we all agree that 1 Monolith ~ 2 Annhilation Barges.

Admittedly I only own 1 AB so that in part is why ive seen lack luster results, 2 ABs give pretty decent results consistently but cut that in half and its like 'jeez this thing doesnt do anything' which has been my experience every time i run it and even then i keep putting it into my lists hoping that it'll change my mind through further play testing.

In any case I think my goal here has been solidified in dimissing the claims that the monolith is so terrible by comparison the barges which is one of the things that was pissing me off. And through this discussion I believe its been proven that at the very least they are interchangeable.

And the answer shoudlnt always be 'toss in some ABs!' nor 'get rid of that monolith and toss in some ABs!'

/agree. I think the mathhammer bears out that the firepower two ABs generate puts them on par if not ahead of a Monolith. However, Monoliths compensate with better survivability against non-melta weapons and some of their other tricks. I still think ABs will fit in better in most Necron lists, but you can still build a solid Necron army utilizing Monoliths... you just have to design it specifically to use the tricks the Monolith brings to the table.

I agree to the extent that I don't think monos fall into to the "horrible - do not take" catagory where pyrovores and sky-slashers reside. Really nothing in the Cron dex does. There are just somethings that are more challenging to build lists around than others. ABs are much easier to squeeze into most lists, partially due to points costs. They do need to be used en masse for full effect though. You also need to use more than one mono, but at over double the points cost, they are much harder to just shoehorn into a list and make work.

I just wish that units teleporting through the mono could assault (even with a caveat that they could only do so if the monolith hadn't moved before the teleport). That right there would make it well worth it.

That being said, you can still teleport shooty units through it, or move it up a flank and pull a scoring unit through it to grab an objective. Or other shenanigans.

Mannahnin wrote:I just wish that units teleporting through the mono could assault (even with a caveat that they could only do so if the monolith hadn't moved before the teleport). That right there would make it well worth it.

Amen! It would actually make Lychguard and Flayed Ones legitimate assault threats!

Mannahnin wrote:I just wish that units teleporting through the mono could assault (even with a caveat that they could only do so if the monolith hadn't moved before the teleport). That right there would make it well worth it.

That being said, you can still teleport shooty units through it, or move it up a flank and pull a scoring unit through it to grab an objective. Or other shenanigans.

Lord yes, that would make it fantastic. I'm hoping in the next edition even when firing Ordinance weapons, you are still allowed to fire other weapons. That would go a long ways toward improving it. Protection against deepstrike as well, for the "Heavy" skimmer would be nice as well.

"Heavy" might turn out to do something useful in 6th. Maybe make it so they can fire Ordnance + other guns?

Mannahnin wrote:"Heavy" might turn out to do something useful in 6th. Maybe make it so they can fire Ordnance + other guns?

I'm hoping so. Well, as they say, Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Or, you know, have an old Necron army and thus own 3 Monoliths anyway, and be pleasantly surprised if they get better.

Sasori wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:The thing is this: Monoliths are MUCH better at killing MEQ in the open, and definately against FnP, but who in their right mind is going to leave their MEQ out in the open if they are threatened by S8 AP3 large blasts? They will mostly be in cover, and spread out as soon as the mono becomes a threat. At that point, the ABs again start to at least pull even (10 marines in cover, the 2x ABs are equal to the monolith being able to cover 6 marines with the template..any less and the ABs pull ahead)

The another thing is while yes, the monolith is a much hardier target than the ABs, you start to introduce target saturation with the ABs. If they opposition has only a few units that can deal with AV 13-14, they have to either divide that fire up (reducing their changes of doing anything to either unit) or focus it on one target (leaving the other free to cause another turn's worth of damage).

I think Monoliths have a place, but the same thing from the old dex holds true, even moreso with the loss of the old living metal: You can't take just one. You have to have a list built around taking full advantage of what the Monolith offers: rangeless teleporting, mobile LOS terrain, and provocing the "OMG must shoot the big expensive model!!!" reaction from your opponent. You don't take them for their fire support, anymore than you would take a ghost ark for it's fire support. The mono's weapons are simply a bonus to the other qualities it has. The monolith just is not going to mesh as well into most lists as other, cheaper heavy support options.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say from the start, and I agree 100% with you.

Likewise. I still love my Monoliths, but its utility is very difficult to justify its high cost nowadays. If 6th Ed. brings in something (maybe some deep strike mishap protection again, at least) to give the Monolith a little more value, then I'll being fielding 2 of 'em again. But until then, the Annihilation Barges are usually a better fit for utility and price in my armies, and I suspect most others as well.

Maelstrom808 wrote:I agree to the extent that I don't think monos fall into to the "horrible - do not take" catagory where pyrovores and sky-slashers reside. Really nothing in the Cron dex does.

Except for Flayed Ones, and maybe even Praetorians at the moment. Both cost far too much for their actual value.

Gornall wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I just wish that units teleporting through the mono could assault (even with a caveat that they could only do so if the monolith hadn't moved before the teleport). That right there would make it well worth it.

Amen! It would actually make Lychguard and Flayed Ones legitimate assault threats!

Couldn't have said it better myself, or at the very least get rid the 'count as disembarking from a moving vehicle' part getting full 8" disembark would be great too

But hey they actually let us port C'tans now so im not going to poke too much at it.

I also was thinking that the 'heavy' vehicle rule was a nod to 6th edition hopefully it pans out and brings about something good.

6th ed looks to be full of deep striking rules and reworked weapon type rules.

I want to see a tank shock if i accidentally scatter onto an infantry unit with a "heavy" vehicle. As I said on another forum: "There is no reason a lone guardsman should be able to shrouyken my monolith and make it explode ..."

azazel the cat wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:I agree to the extent that I don't think monos fall into to the "horrible - do not take" catagory where pyrovores and sky-slashers reside. Really nothing in the Cron dex does.

Except for Flayed Ones, and maybe even Praetorians at the moment. Both cost far too much for their actual value.

I think you can still make both work if you setup to use them right. Are they overcosted and can you typically run something else for better effectiveness? Absolutely, but they aren't utterly worthless.

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote: Even in cover unless you are using a lot of bunkers and area terrain those MEQ that are over abundant in the metagame will only be getting a 4+ cover save or 5+.

This will do significantly more damage from a Monolith's particle whip forcing them to save on 4s or 5s than the ABs unloading and only getting 2 kills from the 3+ saves.

The monolith wins against MEQ even if it only hits 4 marines that's at the very least a draw. And with how big the large blast is you can more often than not get more than 4 guys under.

Two ABs cause 8.83 wounds against MEQ. With a 3+ save that translates to 2.94 dead Marines.

A Particle whip shot hits 6 Marines and wound 5. That is 2.5 saves from cover. So actually it takes more Marines under the whip to pull even.

A 5" template can cover 17 marines, and kill ~14.

Oh wait, That's right, I've played this game before. I don't cluster up, I spread out. At best, you'll get 3 hits as I space 1.5 to 2" between my 1" bases. So 3 hits, 2+ to kill. You average 2.5 kills against marines, standing in the open.
What was that number again for AB?
10.66 hits, 2+ to wound, 3+ armor = 2.96 kills. Wait a moment; that is not the only gun the AB can fire; better add in the 2nd weapon as well.

After seeing 3 AB and 4 night scythes in a proxied game, I'm a lot more worried about spammed Telsa then a trio of what is effectively battle cannons. I've taken on 6 battle cannons at 1850 and won, I'm not worried about 1-3 of them.



WWMD? (what would matt do).
Take a monolith, 2 dooms day arcs, and then as many night scythes as I could get. Use the threat of templates to force my opponent to spread out, then pepper them with Telsa. Force individual units to spread out tends to cut down on the space between units, making the effect of the arcs come into play. Profit?


-Matt

Yep...hence my Scythe Spam list that is just waiting on either GW models, or the Cylon raider models from Moebious in feb.

HawaiiMatt wrote:WWMD? (what would matt do).
Take a monolith, 2 dooms day arcs, and then as many night scythes as I could get. Use the threat of templates to force my opponent to spread out, then pepper them with Telsa. Force individual units to spread out tends to cut down on the space between units, making the effect of the arcs come into play. Profit?


-Matt

Definitely profit.

The target saturation is fantastic there, as well. The Night Scythes gain a ton of survivability when there are Doomsday Arks on the table. This is one of those rare lists that would make someone ignore the Monolith for a few turns, definitely long enough for the Monolith to move up 18" and start spewing out Lychguard.

Akaiyou wrote:
As for marines not coming out of their transports. well not EVERY MEQ list has their units in transports, long fangs for example are never shooting you from inside the transport. Transport rush is common place and are we assuming that we have nothing in our list that can wreck that transport??

If you ever get a Monolith in range of Long Fangs that aren't in terrain, one of three things has happened:

Your opponent is bad.
The board doesn't have enough terrain.
Your opponent rolled horribly all game.

There is simply 0 reason for Long Fangs to ever be outside of cover. When you factor in the 24" range of the Monolith, the possibility of getting within firing range of the Long Fangs becomes very small.

I gave a public warning. -Mannahnin

you know...the monolith could synchronize pretty well with a C'tan that has lord of fire. DS the monolith, hope it doesn't get pinged by AT, teleport the c'tan and watch as your opponent dedicates all of his fire power at killing them. And yelling in frustration that his meltas blew up.

It would be wiser to move the monolith up...but its not as fun


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Gornall wrote:

Akaiyou wrote: Even in cover unless you are using a lot of bunkers and area terrain those MEQ that are over abundant in the metagame will only be getting a 4+ cover save or 5+.

This will do significantly more damage from a Monolith's particle whip forcing them to save on 4s or 5s than the ABs unloading and only getting 2 kills from the 3+ saves.

The monolith wins against MEQ even if it only hits 4 marines that's at the very least a draw. And with how big the large blast is you can more often than not get more than 4 guys under.

Two ABs cause 8.83 wounds against MEQ. With a 3+ save that translates to 2.94 dead Marines.

A Particle whip shot hits 6 Marines and wound 5. That is 2.5 saves from cover. So actually it takes more Marines under the whip to pull even.

A 5" template can cover 17 marines, and kill ~14.

Oh wait, That's right, I've played this game before. I don't cluster up, I spread out. At best, you'll get 3 hits as I space 1.5 to 2" between my 1" bases. So 3 hits, 2+ to kill. You average 2.5 kills against marines, standing in the open.
What was that number again for AB?
10.66 hits, 2+ to wound, 3+ armor = 2.96 kills. Wait a moment; that is not the only gun the AB can fire; better add in the 2nd weapon as well.

After seeing 3 AB and 4 night scythes in a proxied game, I'm a lot more worried about spammed Telsa then a trio of what is effectively battle cannons. I've taken on 6 battle cannons at 1850 and won, I'm not worried about 1-3 of them.



WWMD? (what would matt do).
Take a monolith, 2 dooms day arcs, and then as many night scythes as I could get. Use the threat of templates to force my opponent to spread out, then pepper them with Telsa. Force individual units to spread out tends to cut down on the space between units, making the effect of the arcs come into play. Profit?


-Matt

Yes. Mucho dinero. In the form of shattered power armor of courseb

CthuluIsSpy wrote:you know...the monolith could synchronize pretty well with a C'tan that has lord of fire. DS the monolith, hope it doesn't get pinged by AT, teleport the c'tan and watch as your opponent dedicates all of his fire power at killing them. And yelling in frustration that his meltas blew up.

Monolith & C'Tan with Lord of Fire and ...let's say the cheapest second ability possible; Entropic Touch: 405 points. And what effect have we bought? A fire magnet with a 1 in 6 chance of killing a single model.

I'm not saying it doesn't work; I'm just saying that it costs a very high price for essentially no return.

Have been reading this thread for the last day or so and I have to say that although the initial post made some interesting points it really doesn't go all the way at showing which is better. Over the course of the thread I have seen the following points made:

- Models will not be clumped up under templates. Against regular models you are looking at 3 hits, against multi-wound T4 you are looking at 2. Now on occasions they may get clumped due to gaming considerations but you should look at the norm and not the exceptions. As I see Akaiyou you play Nids...I'm sure you apppreciate spacing out your Genestealers to avoid large templates. Assume your opponent will do the same.

- Tesla is better as all purpose anti-infantry. Firing 2 Destructors should net you around 11 hits if I'm not mistaken since you should get 2 6's if you include average rolls making sure to take into account the re-rolls. Not so great against models with great armour saves (or even marines w/ FnP), but with the amount of high strength shots you put out models will fall. The Monolith relies on being close, and while it's no closer than the A.Barges, there is a significant investment cost attached, whereas the A.Barges are so cheap it doesn't matter as much and the psychological component of losing the model just isn't there. Granted the Monolith does better vs FnP marines but struggles just as much VS 2+ saves. Also as shown Tesla does better vs low AV too.

I'm personally not a fan of looking at units in a vacuum. You have to see how they compliment other units to see if you get redundancy as well as any little tricks or combos you may be able to pull off between multiple units. Take the Monolith for example. What kind of list needs a Monolith? What units does it support well? To be completely honest I cannot think of a competitive build that NEEDS a monolith.

If you want to shoot your range is abysmal for fire support (and you can't even go 12" to quickly get the front line either). DoW will screw you if you don't Deepstrike onto the field, which in some cases dice rolls can hurt...Having a Monolith not coming in till Turn 4/5 is a lot of wasted points.

If you want to use the Portal to pull in units to fight battles up close and personal the stuff that's already good in cc is for the most part Jump Infantry. They will be faster not using the Monolith unless they are going to a completely different part of the battlefield. Also take into account the stuff that can fight well in cc are expensive. You take a couple of Monoliths and a handful of elites and you have taken up a lot of points.

If you are using it to bring in Troops to objectives then you are relying on the Monolith surviving. Since it is a fire magnet I think that's something you would really have to carefully consider. I much prefer stocking up on Night Scythes. Huge mobility and another Tesla Destructor thrown into the bargain.

The Exile Portal is nice, but with a D6" range it is really not reliable. When trying to snipe special weapons out of squads such a variable short range (and for the most part a 33% or 50% chance of success) is not good enough.

If you want S8 there are sources elsewhere which are cheaper, with the added bonus you can throw a Solar Pulse or 2 into the mix. HoD teks also work well (from my personal experience) with multiple Tesla Destructors. I would rather have points spread throughout multiple threats than 2-3 Monoliths taking up a 3rd of my points.

Sorry for such a long winded post, but to be clear I think that putting a lot of points into a unit which has no clear function (a 24" battlecannon) and a few gimmicks (Portal of Exile and Dimensional Corridor) is not worth something that has a very clear role (anti-infantry), is cheaper, can be spammed and can help out in other situations if the need arises (light AV).

I think you missed the point there, that the monolith's role is to be a jack of all trades, a multi-purpose unit, the jack knife of the army, it can reinforce all rolls and cover ones you may be lacking.

As you mentioned during your post, the monolith comes in handy when you need units on a completely different side of the table. This can be used in two ways

#1 - You have 1st turn, and you set up your units on one end to mislead the opponent. Then use the monoliths deep striking into the other end and teleporting your units across to create a flank maneuver or to strike from the rear. I've done that a couple times and it's just so fulfilling when a strategy plays out so nicely. The usual melta guns are most likely on their way to get the forces you have on the initial deployment area so the monolith is unlikely to be seeing them in the back lines.

#2 - If you go second and your opponent tries to use trickery by for example reserving his whole army or doing something other where you are not sure where his army will show up, the monolith can help you cover the entire table with a resilient damaging unit that threatens anything that is within it's range.

The Annhilation Barge is a dedicated attack platform and yes I know most people follow the 'offense is the best defense' doctrine when it comes to 40k, but the best is not always the wisest. The monolith is the ultimate support to any army giving you additional flexibility, I can't think of a single army list where a monolith would not help in some sort of way.

I don't quite understand where people get that it would have NO syngery with their list. There's always stuff to use eternitgy gate on, there's always SOMETHING that the monolith can attack, it has the option to deep strike if you need a bit of tactical flexibilty and it's the most durable thing we have, a monolith will not go down easy specially with the rest of the army doing what it would do if the monolith wasnt there in the first place, which is taking out the big threats.

all cc units would benefit from a monolith's eternity gate. all troop units benefit from a monolith eternity gate. dedicated ranged units benefit as well, monolith is a great way to get those gauss cannons within rapid fire range of a vehicle/infantry unit.

Where as there's 'dedicated' units in the new necron codex that do a lot of these rolls 'better' thats because they are dedicated to the roll thats what they do and they SHOULD do so better. I suppose i highly value flexbility in my army lists.

It's the reason why i hardly ever field my Biovores they are so awesome in their new rules, some of the best anti infantry units in the game IMO, cheap powerful barrage. But why waste my heavy support slot on something that the rest of my army does well already? I rather take a Trygon or something other that i can get versatily from.

I think necrons have great anti infantry power in this new codex more so than we ever did before since all our units are now cheaper. So from my point of view my 1 Annhilation Barge doesnt really do much for me, because I have 40 immortals with tesla carbines that mop the floor with infantry and just 1 AB versus vehicles isn't a good way to tank hunt.

I don't think that 1 Monolith versus vehicles is a good way to tank hunt, either. In fact, it's much worse as has been mathematically shown already.

Honestly, if the Monolith were clocking in at 180 points then I would say it's a toss-up between the 2x Annihilation Barges or the Monolith, depending on whether you need utility and support, or else a mobile firing platform. But it's not; the Monolith costs 20 points more and is a single target rather than two. And I can only benefit any time I can force my opponent to split his shooting at multiple targets.

I would love to use my two Monoliths more, but the price is too high for the little utility it actually brings. The fact of the matter is that the Monolith is too slow not to deep strike, and it is too large to deep strike without risking a mishap, or possible immobilizing itself (which may as well destroy it, given its short range). And again, given the prevalence of melta (in my gaming group, every single MEQ squad will have a meltagun), I just don't like the idea of giving up 200 points for such a short lifespan.

The Monolith just doesn't do much for me anymore. I run two Heavy/Destroyer units, so my army has a decent amount of AP3 already, everything in my army is faster than the Monolith, and I have very good target saturation (8x anti-tank threats, 6x double as infantry killers) But perhaps you play a list that truly needs the Monolith. I would legitimately like to know what list you use wherein the Monolith is such an integral part, because in the new codex, I just cannot envision it. And believe me, since the codex came out I have tried to find a home for my two Monoliths.

I do believe Azazel has the right of it. I would love to see a list that can successfully run a Monolith (or more) and be successful. For the purposes of thoroughness my list (at 1850pts) looks like:

Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge

Royal court 1
4x HoD Crypteks w/ 1x Solar Pulse

Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge

Royal court 2
4x HoD Crypteks w/ 1x Solar Pulse

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

10x Scarabs

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

As you can see the list lives on Tesla saturation with some higher strength dedicated anti-tank thrown in and armour facilitation damage from the Scarabs. A Monolith has no place in this list. Mobility is already taken care of with the Night Scythes and I have no dedicated cc units that need to get thrown around the place.

Would love to see any list that uses Monoliths and gets good results.

I'm going to have to agree with the anti-Monolith sentiment here. It's not that the Monolith is a "bad" unit, it's just that it isn't a particularly good one. At this point I think it's pretty clear that the Annihilation Barge and Tomb Spyders are the 1a and 1b choices for the Necron HS section. Tomb Spyders have been covered before and work amazingly in Ant Farm builds. Which brings us to the Barge.

Annihilation Barges have very solid duality for their points cost. They are a nice in-between of a Dakka Predator and a Rifleman Dred. Though they lack the range of those two, Necrons should always have at least one pulse and maybe even two depending on the build. Which means that they are usually firing either turn one or at worst turn two. They are amazing at light tank suppression and dole out a decent amount of wounds to most units. They also help AV13 saturation. Being that they are only 90 points, they are relatively disposable.

I think you missed the point there, that the monolith's role is to be a jack of all trades, a multi-purpose unit, the jack knife of the army, it can reinforce all rolls and cover ones you may be lacking.

This statement was brought up by the OP and I think it's worth noting. Most units in the Necron army are very specialized. There are very few "jack of all trades" units. Necrons aren't Marines and cannot be played as such. An important distinction I'd like to note is duality versus trying to hamfist the notion of "jack of all trades". Duality is a good thing in the Cron list. Units like Wraiths and Annihilation Barges have duality. Units that are or try to be "jack of all trades" are going to cost and pay a premium. When I see people putting a close combat Lord with every squad of Immortals or Warriors I shake my head. These units are specialized and should be played as such.

The Monolith pays 200 points for all that it can do. However it really doesn't do anything particularly well. The ordinance blast is so-so. I have never seen blast weapons as something that effectively takes out tanks because of the scatter and prevalence of cover. Multiple shots are the key to popping vehicles, not one big shot. The flux arcs are decent but not really all that great. Definite nerf from before. The teleportation could be useful but it has taken a definite nerf as well. Pulling units into the portal is a gimmick.

Overall, I don't see any one thing the Monolith does particularly well. Maybe, maybe survivability, however there is so much melta and the potential to close fast with it that I don't consider it safe. Dark Eldar will also eat Monoliths easily as they will likely not be getting cover. It's just not going to last long.

I just don't see a reason to take a Monolith in a TAC build.

Gornall wrote:
/agree. I think the mathhammer bears out that the firepower two ABs generate puts them on par if not ahead of a Monolith. However, Monoliths compensate with better survivability against non-melta weapons and some of their other tricks. I still think ABs will fit in better in most Necron lists, but you can still build a solid Necron army utilizing Monoliths... you just have to design it specifically to use the tricks the Monolith brings to the table.

The problem is that survivability against non-melta weaponry isn't very valuable. Who doesn't depend on rending, melta, lance, or 2d6 melee? There are some armies that kill vehicles by way of S4-5 hits in melee, but it's not a primary vehicle killing tactic for anybody. The Monolith is really tough against things that people won't bother to shoot most Necron vehicles with anyway.

Mannahnin wrote:I just wish that units teleporting through the mono could assault (even with a caveat that they could only do so if the monolith hadn't moved before the teleport). That right there would make it well worth it.

That being said, you can still teleport shooty units through it, or move it up a flank and pull a scoring unit through it to grab an objective. Or other shenanigans.

If you had, say, 2-3 Monoliths and 2-3 of big infantry formations, say 20 Warriors with a Phaeron or Gauss Immortals with the same and Tesla Immortals, there would be options to be had.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Oh wait, That's right, I've played this game before. I don't cluster up, I spread out. At best, you'll get 3 hits as I space 1.5 to 2" between my 1" bases. So 3 hits, 2+ to kill. You average 2.5 kills against marines, standing in the open.

-Matt

Interestingly, there is a set of battle reports on Dakka by an Eldar player where his late round tournament opponent clustered all his Marines in these bunkers and promptly got obliterated by Fire Prism large templates. I remember thinking, "Have you never played this game before? Do you not know what those large templates do?' You might be able to engineer clumps with Obyron's Ghostwalk Mantle. Sometimes a single consolidate won't spread out well enough. But I wouldn't want to depend on that.

They simply nerfed the Monolith too hard. Had to sell those new kits, you know! If nothing else the AP1 rule should have stayed. It makes the Whip a credible vehicle threat and that's something the Monolith really lacks.

Hopefully 2 things will happen in 6E that will make the monolith worthwhile

-Heavy Vehicles gain some DS protection

-Heavy Vehicles are assault vehicles

That is the only way I can see a mass return of the monolith is if this happens.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Hopefully 2 things will happen in 6E that will make the monolith worthwhile

-Heavy Vehicles gain some DS protection

-Heavy Vehicles are assault vehicles

That is the only way I can see a mass return of the monolith is if this happens.

Certainly would ignite the sales for monoliths to all the new necron players who started collecting after this latest codex

Lukus83 wrote:I do believe Azazel has the right of it. I would love to see a list that can successfully run a Monolith (or more) and be successful. For the purposes of thoroughness my list (at 1850pts) looks like:

Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge

Royal court 1
4x HoD Crypteks w/ 1x Solar Pulse

Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge

Royal court 2
4x HoD Crypteks w/ 1x Solar Pulse

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

10x Scarabs

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

As you can see the list lives on Tesla saturation with some higher strength dedicated anti-tank thrown in and armour facilitation damage from the Scarabs. A Monolith has no place in this list. Mobility is already taken care of with the Night Scythes and I have no dedicated cc units that need to get thrown around the place.

Would love to see any list that uses Monoliths and gets good results.

Do you actually own all that? What did you convert the Night Scythe's from?

Personally I only play (create lists) with what I have in my inventory. I'm not too fond of proxying so I just buy stuff later or something if it's something Id want for my army.

With that said...what I do own his:

1 C'Tan Shard
1 Catacomb Command Barge
5 Crypteks
5 Deathmarks
9 Destroyers
20 Flayed One Pack
2 Ghost Ark
4 Heavy Destroyers
40 Immortals
2 Monolith
1 Overlord
40 Warriors

I largely have a 'footslog' necron army. Which I played with the old codex as well and I won like 80% of the time you can peep my BRs (mostly thanks to perfect use of the deceiver)

Since the vehicle heavy 5th ed took over i've noticed the clearly distinct AT disadvantage and vehicle disadvantage. Thus i bought the CCB and 2 GAs to back up my 2 Ms.

I never play just one list because i own stuff and I like to put it to use, but no matter what kind of list I make the Monolith is always handy as my jack of all trades unit. Mostly because it grants my army what it severely lacks in MOBILITY. Yours is highly mobile using the unreleased Night Scythes, which is one of those units on my 'buy em right away' list when they come out because i also think they are awesome after reading them in my codex when i got it.

Aside from bringing ghost arks my army will always lack mobility and even with the ghost ark I can ALWAYS use extra mobility in other areas of the table which the monolith provides.

Also a lot of people here claim that you are never hit by a template weapon that covers more than 3 of your models? I find that a bit hard to believe, ive played this game tons and tons of times and when your transport gets wrecked....you don't get to disembark and spread your models out so nicely. I'll snipe out a transport with the heavy destroyers and then when they are all nicely disembarked in a mob thats when I let the monolith give em a taste of large blast to the face. Even with spacing out your units the 5" blast will get more than 3 every time out of a transport. And let's face it, meta game is full of transports these days.

To sum it up any necron army that is NOT full of night scythes/ghost arks will find a monolith to be a great option in mobility for his units. Even with ghost arks and night scythes being able to quickly reploy a unit to a completely different side of hte table is invaluable when you do it at the right time. In one game I had a 5-man unit of Immortals luring a ton of black templars towards them for 2 turns separating them from the main army by abusing their RZ rule and then just when they think they'll be getting the assault bam, immortlas are gone and perfectly positioned within 3" of my objective.


How is your army going to deal with Grey Knights Draigowing?? At 1850 pts you are looking at 2 psyriflemen, a vindicare, 15 paladins and god knows what else (thats one of my 1750 GK lists by the way). The scarabs will be useless, all that psybolt ammunition will make short work of every single vehicle you have and you dont have quite enough tesla saturation to even tickle a GK army like this. You dont have any cc dedicated army that can take on terminator squads either.

If you use solar pulse thats only 2 turns and I doubt that you'll want to move in too close while the GK would just advance with no worry, you army can't really hurt it.

I really think that 40k in general is in a sense a game of rock, paper, scissors. (With terrible balance). Your list would be AWESOME against an Ork Horde, kan wall, but fail against Battlewagon Rush you have nothing for AV14

So when you say Dark Eldar due to lance rule would eat the monolith alive, I believe you. I agree lance weapons eat any AV14 alive except BT blessed hull LRs, but that to me is just part of the game, no unit no matter how good has 0 weaknesses. There's always something out there that can pwn it. It doesnt mean my Monolith isn't effective against a ton of other armies though, i'm still winning a lot even before i bought the new stuff I was winning but struggling against vehicle heavy lists (So i was running a lot of gauss to make up...gawd relying on gauss to deal with vehicles is a sad sad thing)

Harbingers of destruction are very fun anti-terminators. Shooting 6 str 8 ap 2 shots from them will thin out their numbers quick enough.

Triarch stalker will also kill them pretty well.

I killed a vindicare turn 1 with imotekh's lightning (lucky, i know, nothing to rely on but it worked).

Heavy destroyers can also catch a vindicare with his pants down if he's occupied trying to snipe IC's

To sum it up any necron army that is NOT full of night scythes/ghost arks will find a monolith to be a great option in mobility for his units.

I play very competitively and am going to have to disagree here. I run:

2 CCB with Scythe Lords and MSS
4 HoD, 2 with Pulses
4 x 7 Immortals
2 x 5 Warriors
2 x 10 Scarabs
6 Wraiths, 3 w coils
3 x Annihilation Barges

at 2k

I put the Warriors in reserve and use them for backfield objectives. The rest pushes forward. Opponents are so focused on Scarabs, Wraiths, and AV13 that they can't bother with the Immortals. If you play NoVa style objectives then all you have to do is push the middle, contest theirs, and grab your backfield objectives. No need for Monolith teleportation.

Also a lot of people here claim that you are never hit by a template weapon that covers more than 3 of your models? I find that a bit hard to believe, ive played this game tons and tons of times and when your transport gets wrecked....you don't get to disembark and spread your models out so nicely. I'll snipe out a transport with the heavy destroyers and then when they are all nicely disembarked in a mob thats when I let the monolith give em a taste of large blast to the face. Even with spacing out your units the 5" blast will get more than 3 every time out of a transport. And let's face it, meta game is full of transports these days.

Template weapons are great if you can hit disembarked models or tank shock opponents in tight. If not good opponents will spread out.

Akaiyou wrote:1. The AB is not 'much faster' it can move cruising speed that's the only difference. And if it does that it cannot shoot

if you move cruising and dont shoot for a turn to reposition you are actually inflicting less damage than if you had just moved combat speed and shot tesla destructor 2x.

Do the math.

Wait, what? Why not shoot after Cruising? Its an Open Topped skimmer. It can shoot the TL Destructor after moving 12". Now that is some speed!

Akaiyou wrote:
2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

Wait, what? One hit STR8, Blast(With great chances to miss) is a guaranteed pen versus av 12? at 5+?

Akaiyou wrote:
5. Are you saying that an AB immobilized in the deployment zone is ANY better than a Monolith immobilized on the same spot?? That makes no damn sense. The monolith is still superior and if you are immobilized at ur deployment zone and are playing something like capture and control or seize ground you can advance with your scoring units and then port them back to home base to recapture your objective at last minute. So that's still useful even at the deployment zone.

No way, if you have a Monolith immobilized in your deployment zone its 200 points that are useless. The barge is 90 pts that is useless. Thats a great difference. Plus, the weapons a single AB has got are far more powerful than the Monolith's whip.

Akaiyou wrote:
6. 2 ABs will never be as survivable as 1 monolith no matter how you try to dice it. You should concede this argument on survivability you and I both know the monolith is as resilient as at least 3 ABs. Proven by the lascannon theory.

I would like you to tell me how survivable it would be versus a shooty DE list with 20+ lances per turn. 3 AB's are gonna provide saturation and still gonna be just as tough as the monolith(xept for the open topped)

Lukus83 wrote:I do believe Azazel has the right of it. I would love to see a list that can successfully run a Monolith (or more) and be successful. For the purposes of thoroughness my list (at 1850pts) looks like:

Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge

Royal court 1
4x HoD Crypteks w/ 1x Solar Pulse

Overlord
Warscythe
CC Barge

Royal court 2
4x HoD Crypteks w/ 1x Solar Pulse

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

5x Immortals
Night Scythe

10x Scarabs

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

As you can see the list lives on Tesla saturation with some higher strength dedicated anti-tank thrown in and armour facilitation damage from the Scarabs. A Monolith has no place in this list. Mobility is already taken care of with the Night Scythes and I have no dedicated cc units that need to get thrown around the place.

Would love to see any list that uses Monoliths and gets good results.

The irony here is that I think your list is as Monolith-friendly as I can come up with.

All those Night Scythes creates target saturation, thus drawing fire away from the Monoliths, and if any of the Night Scythes get brought down, then their cargo goes into reserve and can just walk out through the Monolith at your discretion. At 2500 I would use your list with 3x Monoliths replacing your 3x Annihilation Barges, and kick up each Immortal unit to 10x.

Cryage wrote:Harbingers of destruction are very fun anti-terminators. Shooting 6 str 8 ap 2 shots from them will thin out their numbers quick enough.

Triarch stalker will also kill them pretty well.

I killed a vindicare turn 1 with imotekh's lightning (lucky, i know, nothing to rely on but it worked).

Heavy destroyers can also catch a vindicare with his pants down if he's occupied trying to snipe IC's

Did you actually read his list? his HoD Crypteks are on foot, he has no triach stalker and he has no imotek nor any heavy destroyers.

The crypteks won't survive long and wont kill many paladins otherwise draigowing armies would not be top tier.

Like i said it's rock paper scissors i used his list as an example to show this, we can spend all day looking for units that counter each other from one codex to the next. It doesn't help anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

necr0n wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:1. The AB is not 'much faster' it can move cruising speed that's the only difference. And if it does that it cannot shoot

if you move cruising and dont shoot for a turn to reposition you are actually inflicting less damage than if you had just moved combat speed and shot tesla destructor 2x.

Do the math.

Wait, what? Why not shoot after Cruising? Its an Open Topped skimmer. It can shoot the TL Destructor after moving 12". Now that is some speed!

Akaiyou wrote:
2. Again where is your math to prove this? Please show me how ABs have a better chance at destroying AV12. S7 against AV12 fails specially with AP -. Where as one hit from the monolith is a guaranteed pen pretty much.

Wait, what? One hit STR8, Blast(With great chances to miss) is a guaranteed pen versus av 12? at 5+?

Akaiyou wrote:
5. Are you saying that an AB immobilized in the deployment zone is ANY better than a Monolith immobilized on the same spot?? That makes no damn sense. The monolith is still superior and if you are immobilized at ur deployment zone and are playing something like capture and control or seize ground you can advance with your scoring units and then port them back to home base to recapture your objective at last minute. So that's still useful even at the deployment zone.

No way, if you have a Monolith immobilized in your deployment zone its 200 points that are useless. The barge is 90 pts that is useless. Thats a great difference. Plus, the weapons a single AB has got are far more powerful than the Monolith's whip.

Akaiyou wrote:
6. 2 ABs will never be as survivable as 1 monolith no matter how you try to dice it. You should concede this argument on survivability you and I both know the monolith is as resilient as at least 3 ABs. Proven by the lascannon theory.

I would like you to tell me how survivable it would be versus a shooty DE list with 20+ lances per turn. 3 AB's are gonna provide saturation and still gonna be just as tough as the monolith(xept for the open topped)

Dude open-topped does not mean you can move 12" and shoot all your guns

and 2 ABs are not more survivable than 1 monolith.

I already made the point in comparing a list with a monolith versus a DE list...rock paper scissors...


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azazel the cat wrote:
The irony here is that I think your list is as Monolith-friendly as I can come up with.

All those Night Scythes creates target saturation, thus drawing fire away from the Monoliths, and if any of the Night Scythes get brought down, then their cargo goes into reserve and can just walk out through the Monolith at your discretion. At 2500 I would use your list with 3x Monoliths replacing your 3x Annihilation Barges, and kick up each Immortal unit to 10x.

I actually agree his list is quite monolith friendly and would actually help him versus GK since they'd have to assault to take down AV14 and models trying to assault can be hit with portal of exile

Originally the list only had 2 Crypteks, but I went up to 8 after I decided I needed some stuff to deal with multi-wound T4 models (namely Paladins). At 1850pts I really doubt a Paladin list would give me any trouble (though I haven't played them yet...only 1 guy in our group uses them and even then his staple army is Purifiers). If they put points into a full 10 man unit, Draigo and a Librarian (for Shrouding) they are looking at well over 1k in 12 models. Sure it would be tough to kill but 8 lances out range them and can either be hidden in Immortal squads or put into units of 4 lances. All my tesla can also consistently whittle wounds away. Any support units the Paladins have would be nullified by the 2 Solar pulses giving me a chance to knock down Paladins without too much retaliation. If I went up to 2k I would probably replace 2 A. Barges with Doom Scythes since that's the threshold at which Paladins get all the support they need.

I can see how my list looks Monoith friendly at first glance, but it's not just vehicle saturation I am providing, it's Tesla. Adding a Monolith takes my vehicle count down from 9 to 8 and I lose 2 Tesla Destructors in the process (which was shown before to be superior to a single large blast). Most of the time my guys are on foot with 2 Crypteks per unit. They use the Night Scythes to re-manoeuvre if things look tight, and with a potential 6" plus 12" move not many assault units can keep up with them, least of all Paladins. And If I have to I can screen with 12"/36" moving Scythes to block assaults. If there is cargo inside and the vehicle is destroyed then they enter reserve and are free to come in from another side of the table and get more turns of shooting. The list is in fact very carefully thought out and though it looks just like a Tesla beat stick there are so many subtle things you can do to swiftly turn the game back around.

And no I don't own any Scythe conversions. Am currently proxying with vendettas. I am actually proxying a lot: 2 units of Immortals, Scarabs and Crypteks, but today I get all of this. Am trying (for once) to assemble and paint. So far it's going well.

Seriously all this mathammer is makes me lol...Do realize that beyond stats there is the hidden tactical element of taking a unit and some of you guys have mentioned it. 2 weeks ago I just faced 3 Monoliths and the first thing I asked was range. 24" though armor 14 makes a huge difference in todays meta. Imagine how many armies have 48" range guns then a bucketful of Melta these days. You can argue that you can compensate with nightfighting and all that jazz which brings me to my point. Doing a straight up comparison of A unit vs B unit who fulfill different roles is like apples to oranges. The tactical value of a unit depends on what It provide to the rest of list which is specially true of any Xenos army. Crons are not a Imperialist army that relies on resiliency and wars of attrition to win. By saying 1 Monolith is better than 2 Barges then you might follow the logic that if 1 is good then 2 is better then maybe 3 is best. Now if you field 3 Monoliths, do you see the disadvantages of it as well? If you were to mix and match is there even point to this debate?

Maybe it's just my army but I faced 3 Monoliths 2 weeks back I think and mind you we had Nightfighting turn 1. I fired a Ravager and 1 Raider, poof went Monlith 1, fired my second Ravager, stunned the middle one. Turn 2 all 3 Monoliths were down without even stunning or wrecking any of my vehicles. Tactical stuff like the gate? Yes he ported his Warriors from the other end of the board on his 2nd turn. Shook one Raider. On my turn I wiped that unit with 4 Venoms without the passengers even firing. Had they been Annihilation Barges it could have been a different story. Now I suppose you want to justify the debate on the grounds of taking the Monolith in an all-comers list. If you follow that train of thought, the best all comers list would be a list that will do 70% better against every opponent than a list that will do 90% better against every opponent except one where it will win 30% of the time. Let skill compensate for the decrease in stat efficiency. Different strokes for different folks.

Even w/ 3 barges vs 3 monoliths, if i lose 3x barges in the first round due to amazing luck on my opponents turn, it stung less to lose 270 points vs 600 points of 3x monoliths which in turn would have done the same thing as the barges - attract a lot of heavy fire on turn 1 -2.

Has anyone mentioned that the annihilation barges are dirt cheap and allow you to fill the Heavy support slots without sacrificing the ability to take or buff up other quality units in your army? To me that is a significant bonus.

Akaiyou wrote:
BS 4 means you'll have to roll an 8 on 2D6 to not hit. Statistically 7 is the most commonly rolled number on 2D6. thus you have better than 50% chance to hit as I pointed out it should be something like 55% chance to hit or something i know i've seen the math hammer done on blasts vs vehicles before.

All of you that are trying to make it seem like the monolith is terrible are either not using the proper chance to hit or the proper chance to penetrate...how convenient.

What the hell are you shooting at that is 8" wide? What the hell can you hit if you scatter 4 inches? Are you shooting at a damn titan? Are you forgetting you only get half strength if the center of the template doesnt land on target with the vehicle? You wont even hit a land raider in the long direction scoring an 8 for scatter!

When i started my chaos marines i bought vindicators for them, which i quickly traded. Scatter destroys the anti tank usefulness of blast weapons. I own a monolith, and it quite frankyl has been stripped of the things that made it great, specifically the removal of units from close combat and the reroll of WBB. I also play tested the doomsday ark, and couldnt hit anything with it, ever. i killed more with the flayer arrays after an entire army was on top of the damn things(i play tested 3, between the three i killed one paladin).

I am not saying it is a bad unit, i am just saying its not that good either. A strength 8 template against vehicles, meh, i will pass. I would rather take 5 crypteks of desctruction and take the 5 str 8 ap 2 shots which is probably what you will average in hits when you actually manage to hit against infantry with a particle whip anyways, plus now you get 5 shots straight up against a tank at the same strength, minus the scatter, for 25 points less. Then you dont take up any heavy slots and can put in 3 annihilation barges to go with the crypteks.

Monolith isnt worth its points, unless you get crazy lucky with it, just like a SAG big mek, its for fun, not for competitive.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:Seriously all this mathammer is makes me lol...Do realize that beyond stats there is the hidden tactical element of taking a unit and some of you guys have mentioned it. 2 weeks ago I just faced 3 Monoliths and the first thing I asked was range. 24" though armor 14 makes a huge difference in todays meta. Imagine how many armies have 48" range guns then a bucketful of Melta these days. You can argue that you can compensate with nightfighting and all that jazz which brings me to my point. Doing a straight up comparison of A unit vs B unit who fulfill different roles is like apples to oranges. The tactical value of a unit depends on what It provide to the rest of list which is specially true of any Xenos army. Crons are not a Imperialist army that relies on resiliency and wars of attrition to win. By saying 1 Monolith is better than 2 Barges then you might follow the logic that if 1 is good then 2 is better then maybe 3 is best. Now if you field 3 Monoliths, do you see the disadvantages of it as well? If you were to mix and match is there even point to this debate?

Maybe it's just my army but I faced 3 Monoliths 2 weeks back I think and mind you we had Nightfighting turn 1. I fired a Ravager and 1 Raider, poof went Monlith 1, fired my second Ravager, stunned the middle one. Turn 2 all 3 Monoliths were down without even stunning or wrecking any of my vehicles. Tactical stuff like the gate? Yes he ported his Warriors from the other end of the board on his 2nd turn. Shook one Raider. On my turn I wiped that unit with 4 Venoms without the passengers even firing. Had they been Annihilation Barges it could have been a different story. Now I suppose you want to justify the debate on the grounds of taking the Monolith in an all-comers list. If you follow that train of thought, the best all comers list would be a list that will do 70% better against every opponent than a list that will do 90% better against every opponent except one where it will win 30% of the time. Let skill compensate for the decrease in stat efficiency. Different strokes for different folks.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Monoliths get owned by armies packing heavy long range lance weapons which you obviously have. You are comparing it based on the worst possible scenario, how can you possibly determine its worth from that? On the flip side I could just say 'hey i took 3 monoliths and did EXTREMELY well against an army that had NO LANCE or MELTA weapons, the whole game i just ran my monoilths infront blasting everything to pieces and my opponent just coudl not do anything about it'

Which I actually HAVE done, versus Orks and other armies that aren't all ortiented towards massing lance/melta spam.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Your venom spam army isn't infallible too it has poor matchus versus Kan Wall Orks, IG, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and certain GK builds. Just saying...you can't base everything off one scenario...and besides 3 monoliths is simply overkill, just because a unit is good doesnt mean it should be over spammed. The C'tan are good units doesnt mean I want to take 3 of them, nor would I take 3 land raiders in any marine army thats 750 pts down the drain. Doesn't mean that 1 single land raider bringing in your deathstar is suddenly a terrible choice

There IS such a thing as over-reaching. Your opponent clearly over-reached and paid dearly for it. Do play against him again without all that lance weaponry and let us know how it goes...




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Cryage wrote:Even w/ 3 barges vs 3 monoliths, if i lose 3x barges in the first round due to amazing luck on my opponents turn, it stung less to lose 270 points vs 600 points of 3x monoliths which in turn would have done the same thing as the barges - attract a lot of heavy fire on turn 1 -2.

Absolutely correct, but against most AT weapons the monolith will survive a tad longer than the ABs thats included in the cost you pay.

We can go out and buy shoes, you buy the cheap brand, i buy the standard more expensive brand. My shoes wear out from heavy use the same as yours, but mine are made of sturdier materials so they last a bit longer, don't mean I shouldn't pay extra for that.

Yes it hurts when you lose those expensive units early on in poor match ups. But its not as if the monolith is the only expensive unit ever made that had this problem. Hell I pay 280 points for a swarmlord who's utility varies...since the opponent can simply never engage him in combat, and i have to pay for some guards for him otherwise he's a giant walking target that goes down as easy as a 200 pt tyrant, which go down as easy as 4 marines...

Doesn't mean the swarmlord is terrible. In fact he's one of the best units in the nid codex mostly due to the 'other' stuff he can do when he's not engaged.


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Dave-c wrote:Has anyone mentioned that the annihilation barges are dirt cheap and allow you to fill the Heavy support slots without sacrificing the ability to take or buff up other quality units in your army? To me that is a significant bonus.

Akaiyou wrote:
BS 4 means you'll have to roll an 8 on 2D6 to not hit. Statistically 7 is the most commonly rolled number on 2D6. thus you have better than 50% chance to hit as I pointed out it should be something like 55% chance to hit or something i know i've seen the math hammer done on blasts vs vehicles before.

All of you that are trying to make it seem like the monolith is terrible are either not using the proper chance to hit or the proper chance to penetrate...how convenient.

What the hell are you shooting at that is 8" wide? What the hell can you hit if you scatter 4 inches? Are you shooting at a damn titan? Are you forgetting you only get half strength if the center of the template doesnt land on target with the vehicle? You wont even hit a land raider in the long direction scoring an 8 for scatter!

When i started my chaos marines i bought vindicators for them, which i quickly traded. Scatter destroys the anti tank usefulness of blast weapons. I own a monolith, and it quite frankyl has been stripped of the things that made it great, specifically the removal of units from close combat and the reroll of WBB. I also play tested the doomsday ark, and couldnt hit anything with it, ever. i killed more with the flayer arrays after an entire army was on top of the damn things(i play tested 3, between the three i killed one paladin).

I am not saying it is a bad unit, i am just saying its not that good either. A strength 8 template against vehicles, meh, i will pass. I would rather take 5 crypteks of desctruction and take the 5 str 8 ap 2 shots which is probably what you will average in hits when you actually manage to hit against infantry with a particle whip anyways, plus now you get 5 shots straight up against a tank at the same strength, minus the scatter, for 25 points less. Then you dont take up any heavy slots and can put in 3 annihilation barges to go with the crypteks.

Monolith isnt worth its points, unless you get crazy lucky with it, just like a SAG big mek, its for fun, not for competitive.

You may not yet be aware, but in 5th edition rules we substract BS from the scatter roll. So monolith being bS 4 would make an 8" scatter actually become 4". 3" scatter is the maximum on all vehicles to stay on target on the largets of them, so at times scattering 7" minus the BS 4 will still land you a hit. Rolling an 8" scatter however will always be a miss

Perhaps you should get back those vindicators you gave away apparently you were not aware that you can substract your ballistic skill, they are not as terrible as you assume they are. In fact MANY great strategies use them, namely lash of submission lists make heavy use of those demolisher cannons.

Don't worry i ask about stuff here all day that I am unsure about, welcome to dakka. Learn something new every day.

Another point against the monolith is the horrible mounting of the gauss flux arcs: you will *never* get to fire them all, at best if the unit is a bit of a U shape or really big you can fire three, but normally only two.

Not to mention: the portal of exile really is garbage. The only time an enemy unit will get that close to a 'Lith is when they want to assault it, and if they want to assault it they'll generally have meltabombs/S10powerfists/be a monstrous creature. And yes, if a Trygon charges the 'Lith it dies in one round...

Soem of us can't afford to buy 3 ABs so i for one will field a single AB in smaller games and probably back it up with a 'lith in larger games.

yes the monoloth has been nerfed....but it is still an AV14 brick that can teleport a unit from ANYWHERE on the table. it is a mobile deployment zone and that alone give the necron army a level of mobility that not many armies have. you see that squad of warriors way over there that you though was doing nothign? POP! Now they're steppign out of that mopnolith (ideally with a phaeron) and unloading on you.

i will be taking a monolith in the majority of my lists if i can fit it in. yes the gunsd aren't great, yes you cant fire everythgin at once. It is stilla good vehicle with a wealth of options to it. i think that now it is more of a support vehicle rather than the be-all and end-all everything killer it used to be.

Akaiyou wrote:

You may not yet be aware, but in 5th edition rules we substract BS from the scatter roll. So monolith being bS 4 would make an 8" scatter actually become 4". 3" scatter is the maximum on all vehicles to stay on target on the largets of them, so at times scattering 7" minus the BS 4 will still land you a hit. Rolling an 8" scatter however will always be a miss

Perhaps you should get back those vindicators you gave away apparently you were not aware that you can substract your ballistic skill, they are not as terrible as you assume they are. In fact MANY great strategies use them, namely lash of submission lists make heavy use of those demolisher cannons.

Don't worry i ask about stuff here all day that I am unsure about, welcome to dakka. Learn something new every day.

I am quite aware that the BS is taken from the scatter, what you may not be aware of is that if you place the template directly in the center of a vehicle, watch it scatter 4", I guaruntee you wont hit that vehicle, in any direction, unless it is a necron ark and you scatter along the length. In order to hit with a 4" scatter the vehicle needs to b e 8" wide.

Check your math again, and reply once you have done that.

Dave-c wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:

You may not yet be aware, but in 5th edition rules we substract BS from the scatter roll. So monolith being bS 4 would make an 8" scatter actually become 4". 3" scatter is the maximum on all vehicles to stay on target on the largets of them, so at times scattering 7" minus the BS 4 will still land you a hit. Rolling an 8" scatter however will always be a miss

Perhaps you should get back those vindicators you gave away apparently you were not aware that you can substract your ballistic skill, they are not as terrible as you assume they are. In fact MANY great strategies use them, namely lash of submission lists make heavy use of those demolisher cannons.

Don't worry i ask about stuff here all day that I am unsure about, welcome to dakka. Learn something new every day.

I am quite aware that the BS is taken from the scatter, what you may not be aware of is that if you place the template directly in the center of a vehicle, watch it scatter 4", I guaruntee you wont hit that vehicle, in any direction, unless it is a necron ark and you scatter along the length. In order to hit with a 4" scatter the vehicle needs to b e 8" wide.

Check your math again, and reply once you have done that.

I don't need to check my math, you simply are not reading my post properly.

I highly recommend you re-read

Dave-c wrote:

I am quite aware that the BS is taken from the scatter, what you may not be aware of is that if you place the template directly in the center of a vehicle, watch it scatter 4", I guaruntee you wont hit that vehicle, in any direction, unless it is a necron ark and you scatter along the length. In order to hit with a 4" scatter the vehicle needs to b e 8" wide.

Check your math again, and reply once you have done that.

He said that, if you re-read his posts. 8 was the score he mentioned for a guaranteed MISS. One a 7, you might hit or might miss, depending on the vehicle and the direction of the scatter.

Warboss Gutrip wrote:Another point against the monolith is the horrible mounting of the gauss flux arcs: you will *never* get to fire them all, at best if the unit is a bit of a U shape or really big you can fire three, but normally only two.

Not to mention: the portal of exile really is garbage. The only time an enemy unit will get that close to a 'Lith is when they want to assault it, and if they want to assault it they'll generally have meltabombs/S10powerfists/be a monstrous creature. And yes, if a Trygon charges the 'Lith it dies in one round...

You can fire them independently of each other and at different units. Its actually quite easy to engage 3 of them by just pointing one of the Liths corners at the heart or your enemy formation.

Akaiyou wrote:
Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Monoliths get owned by armies packing heavy long range lance weapons which you obviously have. You are comparing it based on the worst possible scenario, how can you possibly determine its worth from that? On the flip side I could just say 'hey i took 3 monoliths and did EXTREMELY well against an army that had NO LANCE or MELTA weapons, the whole game i just ran my monoilths infront blasting everything to pieces and my opponent just coudl not do anything about it'

Which I actually HAVE done, versus Orks and other armies that aren't all ortiented towards massing lance/melta spam.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Your venom spam army isn't infallible too it has poor matchus versus Kan Wall Orks, IG, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and certain GK builds. Just saying...you can't base everything off one scenario...and besides 3 monoliths is simply overkill, just because a unit is good doesnt mean it should be over spammed. The C'tan are good units doesnt mean I want to take 3 of them, nor would I take 3 land raiders in any marine army thats 750 pts down the drain. Doesn't mean that 1 single land raider bringing in your deathstar is suddenly a terrible choice

There IS such a thing as over-reaching. Your opponent clearly over-reached and paid dearly for it. Do play against him again without all that lance weaponry and let us know how it goes...

First I only have 4 Venoms in that list and I face Kan Wall, Wolves and and GK regularly. Secondly, what else can DE use for AT other than Lances and Haywire that are cost effective?? Look across the board and see which armies don't have access to AV 14 tank busters. The only army I can think off right of the back are Orks. Other than that most armies have the tools to deal with AV14. Now about over reaching, by delivering a blanket statement that a Monolith is greater than 2 AB, you are indirectly saying that if a player opting for multiple AB, he is already gimping himself. Now if you also think that using 3 Monoliths is over reaching then what is the point of the entire post if in the end you are also indicating that Necrons should have a varied HS slot selection like 1 Monlith and 2 Barges or 1 Monolith + Spiders. Seriously...Kinda pointless comparing Apples and Oranges if in the end they are both going into the damn salad anyway.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:
Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Monoliths get owned by armies packing heavy long range lance weapons which you obviously have. You are comparing it based on the worst possible scenario, how can you possibly determine its worth from that? On the flip side I could just say 'hey i took 3 monoliths and did EXTREMELY well against an army that had NO LANCE or MELTA weapons, the whole game i just ran my monoilths infront blasting everything to pieces and my opponent just coudl not do anything about it'

Which I actually HAVE done, versus Orks and other armies that aren't all ortiented towards massing lance/melta spam.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Your venom spam army isn't infallible too it has poor matchus versus Kan Wall Orks, IG, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and certain GK builds. Just saying...you can't base everything off one scenario...and besides 3 monoliths is simply overkill, just because a unit is good doesnt mean it should be over spammed. The C'tan are good units doesnt mean I want to take 3 of them, nor would I take 3 land raiders in any marine army thats 750 pts down the drain. Doesn't mean that 1 single land raider bringing in your deathstar is suddenly a terrible choice

There IS such a thing as over-reaching. Your opponent clearly over-reached and paid dearly for it. Do play against him again without all that lance weaponry and let us know how it goes...

First I only have 4 Venoms in that list and I face Kan Wall, Wolves and and GK regularly. Secondly, what else can DE use for AT other than Lances and Haywire that are cost effective?? Look across the board and see which armies don't have access to AV 14 tank busters. The only army I can think off right of the back are Orks. Other than that most armies have the tools to deal with AV14. Now about over reaching, by delivering a blanket statement that a Monolith is greater than 2 AB, you are indirectly saying that if a player opting for multiple AB, he is already gimping himself. Now if you also think that using 3 Monoliths is over reaching then what is the point of the entire post if in the end you are also indicating that Necrons should have a varied HS slot selection like 1 Monlith and 2 Barges or 1 Monolith + Spiders. Seriously...Kinda pointless comparing Apples and Oranges if in the end they are both going into the damn salad anyway.

Tankhammers and power klaws would like a word with you.
And zzap guns...but those are crap anyway.

Problem with hammers and klaws is that they're melee-only. Until we hit charge range, greenskins can't do jack against AV 14.

I think a good point can be made that most competitive armies out there will have the tools to deal with Monoliths. Obviously DE have the easiest time with the amount of Lances they can field, though IG are not far behind with the number of lascannons, melta and Manticore shots they can get. Other armies may not be able to spam these as much, but the tools are there and a decent all-comers list should have enough for the task. It's one of the reasons I prefer to not run big expensive units in my lists.


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BeRzErKeR wrote:Problem with hammers and klaws is that they're melee-only. Until we hit charge range, greenskins can't do jack against AV 14.

And with the 24" range and a 6" move how many turns away is that Monolith? It may kill a ton of Orks but it probably won't deal with the PK in time before it smacks the big M down.

Not every list out there is a tournament list.

And yes even if both go in the damn salad, the thread is to dismiss this claim that someone should ALWAYS take Annihilation Barges, which if you look around is what the internet is spouting lately. "OMG add ABs to the list' in just about every list...jeez there's other good stuff to recommend people.

Specially wanted to address this anti-monolith sentiment, clearly the monolith lost some of its perks but it gain many others as well its not a one-sided nerf and I much rather have THIS new monolith to the previous edition one.

Teleporting a unit from anywhere on the board and killing stuff with an indestructible portal of exile is just too sweet and worth losing the pseudo invulnerability to an extra D6 in a system where vehicles are already king and AV14 is already at it's pinnacle.

I think people recommend annihilation barges because they are THAT good. It's like GK's, purifiers are certainly their books poster child and preferred unit, AB's are probably one of Necrons best units in the codex now.

Akaiyou wrote:Not every list out there is a tournament list.

And yes even if both go in the damn salad, the thread is to dismiss this claim that someone should ALWAYS take Annihilation Barges, which if you look around is what the internet is spouting lately. "OMG add ABs to the list' in just about every list...jeez there's other good stuff to recommend people.

Specially wanted to address this anti-monolith sentiment, clearly the monolith lost some of its perks but it gain many others as well its not a one-sided nerf and I much rather have THIS new monolith to the previous edition one.

Teleporting a unit from anywhere on the board and killing stuff with an indestructible portal of exile is just too sweet and worth losing the pseudo invulnerability to an extra D6 in a system where vehicles are already king and AV14 is already at it's pinnacle.

I recommend Annihilation Barges to a lot of people because dollar-wise they are the best deal in all of 40k. You get to pick between the Command Barge and the Annihilation Barge, of which the model comes almost pre-pinned to make swapping easier, and it includes a $19.00 Overlord in the box. Every Necron player that is just starting out should buy two of these, and every Necron player that no longer has any HQs as per the new codex should buy two barges as well, for the exact same reasons.

I don't want to come off as being anti-Monolith, because I'm really not. But I do think you're crazy for preferring the new Monolith over the old rules. The old Living Metal rule was one of the strongest abilities in the game, and now it's not even as good as Power of the Machine Spirit, IMO. And my favourite tactic used to be deep striking two monoliths into the dead center of my opponent's army, forcing his army to make way for the Monoliths, and then firing the Flux Arcs that would hit everything nearby. That can't happen again because the Monoliths will just mishap now.

I personally think that most good lists will have a mix.

i am not a competative player and dont ever intedn to go to a tourney. But i still love the monolith, it still has its nice abilities (shooting from deep strike, teleporting, "eating" high value models at close range, targetting multiple units) so can't just be dismissed.

in a situation where the enenmy is closing in to CC range with multiple units i would be more thankful for a 'lith than an AB.....but i would rather have both to increase the options i have.

My tactic (once i have chance to actually play a game with my new necrons) will be to try a deep striek the lith towards the other end of the table. it will only mishpap if you land on impassable terrain or other models, normal terrain just runs a slight risk of immobilising, but with a max scatter of 12" and an all-round range of 24" the monolith can safely DS and still delivery a solid round of 2 o shooting as well as redeploying big units right into the enemy flank.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Ichiyo1821 wrote:

Akaiyou wrote:
Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Monoliths get owned by armies packing heavy long range lance weapons which you obviously have. You are comparing it based on the worst possible scenario, how can you possibly determine its worth from that? On the flip side I could just say 'hey i took 3 monoliths and did EXTREMELY well against an army that had NO LANCE or MELTA weapons, the whole game i just ran my monoilths infront blasting everything to pieces and my opponent just coudl not do anything about it'

Which I actually HAVE done, versus Orks and other armies that aren't all ortiented towards massing lance/melta spam.

Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Your venom spam army isn't infallible too it has poor matchus versus Kan Wall Orks, IG, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and certain GK builds. Just saying...you can't base everything off one scenario...and besides 3 monoliths is simply overkill, just because a unit is good doesnt mean it should be over spammed. The C'tan are good units doesnt mean I want to take 3 of them, nor would I take 3 land raiders in any marine army thats 750 pts down the drain. Doesn't mean that 1 single land raider bringing in your deathstar is suddenly a terrible choice

There IS such a thing as over-reaching. Your opponent clearly over-reached and paid dearly for it. Do play against him again without all that lance weaponry and let us know how it goes...

First I only have 4 Venoms in that list and I face Kan Wall, Wolves and and GK regularly. Secondly, what else can DE use for AT other than Lances and Haywire that are cost effective?? Look across the board and see which armies don't have access to AV 14 tank busters. The only army I can think off right of the back are Orks. Other than that most armies have the tools to deal with AV14. Now about over reaching, by delivering a blanket statement that a Monolith is greater than 2 AB, you are indirectly saying that if a player opting for multiple AB, he is already gimping himself. Now if you also think that using 3 Monoliths is over reaching then what is the point of the entire post if in the end you are also indicating that Necrons should have a varied HS slot selection like 1 Monlith and 2 Barges or 1 Monolith + Spiders. Seriously...Kinda pointless comparing Apples and Oranges if in the end they are both going into the damn salad anyway.

Was referring to guns only...

Tankhammers and power klaws would like a word with you.
And zzap guns...but those are crap anyway.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akaiyou wrote:Not every list out there is a tournament list.

And yes even if both go in the damn salad, the thread is to dismiss this claim that someone should ALWAYS take Annihilation Barges, which if you look around is what the internet is spouting lately. "OMG add ABs to the list' in just about every list...jeez there's other good stuff to recommend people.

Specially wanted to address this anti-monolith sentiment, clearly the monolith lost some of its perks but it gain many others as well its not a one-sided nerf and I much rather have THIS new monolith to the previous edition one.

Teleporting a unit from anywhere on the board and killing stuff with an indestructible portal of exile is just too sweet and worth losing the pseudo invulnerability to an extra D6 in a system where vehicles are already king and AV14 is already at it's pinnacle.

Well netlists are just what they are. Sooner or later after you get the mechanics of the game it's actually better to veer off netlists and use mix and match units. Any monkey can spam one model/ unit till the cows come home but if he faces an army that deals with that unit with ease then his entire army can crumble. I just see no use in posting that a Monolith is greater than 2 ABs when one should be taking both in the first place. Most Xenos armies have great selections all over their codex that helps with the synergy matrix of Xenos fighting. People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine players who switched to Necrons. The same people who use Razorback spams, Venomspams and Psyflemen spams.

I can definately see the appeal in fielding 1 monlith and 2 ABs. in that case the amount of firepower you could churn out would be very impressive.

Well netlists are just what they are. Sooner or later after you get the mechanics of the game it's actually better to veer off netlists and use mix and match units. Any monkey can spam one model/ unit till the cows come home but if he faces an army that deals with that unit with ease then his entire army can crumble. I just see no use in posting that a Monolith is greater than 2 ABs when one should be taking both in the first place. Most Xenos armies have great selections all over their codex that helps with the synergy matrix of Xenos fighting. People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine players who switched to Necrons. The same people who use Razorback spams, Venomspams and Psyflemen spams.

It's possible that people spam units for redundancy, and because They Work. I take 3 Annihilation barges, because at 90 points a pop, it allows me to spend a lot more points elsewhere. They put out an amazing amount of firepower, and I like having them in my Army. Saying that people only do that "Because they probably played Marines" Is stupidly ignorant, and people would probably appreciate it if you didn't paint them in broad strokes like that.

I agree that at 90 points an AB is an absolute steal and i will pretty much always include mine in any list.

i suppose it depends on what army you are facing. Against hordes for exaple i would rather have the high umber of S5 hits from an AB rather than a couple of large blasts that will scatter and likely miss.

Gauss gives you a different option in the chance to glance vehicles on a 6.

Again, i woudln't want to rely on one or the other. i think 1 'Lith and 2 ABs woudl be the best combo.

Praxiss wrote:I agree that at 90 points an AB is an absolute steal and i will pretty much always include mine in any list.

i suppose it depends on what army you are facing. Against hordes for exaple i woudl rather have the high umber of S5 hits from an AB rather than a couple of large blasts that will scatter and likely miss.

For IG i woudl prefer to have an element of gauss fire in there to negate armour saves a bit.

Well, I take Gauss Cannons as my underslung weapon on my CCBs and AB's. Granted, I'd much rather fire those at infantry. AB are much better at tank suppressing, than tank destroying though. All you need sometimes, is that shaken/stunned result anyhow.

Sasori wrote:

Well netlists are just what they are. Sooner or later after you get the mechanics of the game it's actually better to veer off netlists and use mix and match units. Any monkey can spam one model/ unit till the cows come home but if he faces an army that deals with that unit with ease then his entire army can crumble. I just see no use in posting that a Monolith is greater than 2 ABs when one should be taking both in the first place. Most Xenos armies have great selections all over their codex that helps with the synergy matrix of Xenos fighting. People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine players who switched to Necrons. The same people who use Razorback spams, Venomspams and Psyflemen spams.

It's possible that people spam units for redundancy, and because They Work. I take 3 Annihilation barges, because at 90 points a pop, it allows me to spend a lot more points elsewhere. They put out an amazing amount of firepower, and I like having them in my Army. Saying that people only do that "Because they probably played Marines" Is stupidly ignorant, and people would probably appreciate it if you didn't paint them in broad strokes like that.

.

That is not being stupidly ignorant just incase you haven't noticed it yet. Its a fact that most of the new army codexes spam units but I am generalizing that because no matter what you say the ratio of Marine Players vs non Marines are what? 5:1? Perhaps even more and truth of the matter is when these same players shift armies they carry the same list making ideas and concepts. I admit that I use 3 Ravagers and 3 units of Trueborn but I don't do Venom spam nor full min max Warrios myself. There are just some codexes where you have to spam to optimze but then there are codexes that have the versatility to variate. I am all for redundancy but I am also a believer that if you can, it's better to have choices and tools everything. The Imp Guard I am making won't spam Veterans and Chimeras but will use everything the Codex has to offer. Necrons have good units across the Codex for them to spam stuff. Don't be too defensive unless ofcourse you're playing Razorback + 5 man assault squad minimum spam BA or the likes

Sorry I agree with Sasori here. 90pts for a heavy support choice that has that much firepower is too good a deal to pass up. Not only is it cheap and reasonably survivable but as Sasori said it frees up points in other slots and they work.

Primarily a nid player here, but I guess that's ok since I do have a small collection of GK's.

Ichiyo1821 wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Well netlists are just what they are. Sooner or later after you get the mechanics of the game it's actually better to veer off netlists and use mix and match units. Any monkey can spam one model/ unit till the cows come home but if he faces an army that deals with that unit with ease then his entire army can crumble. I just see no use in posting that a Monolith is greater than 2 ABs when one should be taking both in the first place. Most Xenos armies have great selections all over their codex that helps with the synergy matrix of Xenos fighting. People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine players who switched to Necrons. The same people who use Razorback spams, Venomspams and Psyflemen spams.

It's possible that people spam units for redundancy, and because They Work. I take 3 Annihilation barges, because at 90 points a pop, it allows me to spend a lot more points elsewhere. They put out an amazing amount of firepower, and I like having them in my Army. Saying that people only do that "Because they probably played Marines" Is stupidly ignorant, and people would probably appreciate it if you didn't paint them in broad strokes like that.

.

That is not being stupidly ignorant just incase you haven't noticed it yet. Its a fact that most of the new army codexes spam units but I am generalizing that because no matter what you say the ratio of Marine Players vs non Marines are what? 5:1? Perhaps even more and truth of the matter is when these same players shift armies they carry the same list making ideas and concepts. I admit that I use 3 Ravagers and 3 units of Trueborn but I don't do Venom spam nor full min max Warrios myself. There are just some codexes where you have to spam to optimze but then there are codexes that have the versatility to variate. I am all for redundancy but I am also a believer that if you can, it's better to have choices and tools everything. The Imp Guard I am making won't spam Veterans and Chimeras but will use everything the Codex has to offer. Necrons have good units across the Codex for them to spam stuff. Don't be too defensive unless ofcourse you're playing Razorback + 5 man assault squad minimum spam BA or the likes

It is ignorant, because people don't spam things because they are/were marine players, people spam things for redundancy and efficiency. So once again, it is ignorant to say "People advocating 3 AB are probably just marine Players who switched to Necrons." because this is simply not the case. 3 AB are just an extremely effective and cheap way to spend your points in the heavy support slot, and they are good.

By the way, as you can tell from my Sig, I don't play any Marine Armies. I do spam Hive Guard, Wave Serpents, and Firedragons though.

So, yes, I get a little defensive when someone who doesn't know they are talking about, lumps me as a "Likely Marine Player" (Which you implied as a derogatory term) Because I advocate a very cost effective heavy support load out.

delete

I happen to use Carnifexen in my Nid list. Dual devourers are still very good. Attach a Prime and see what they do. Let's not overreact either. The monolith clearly lost some of its appeal with the nerfs. It still has plenty of utility in the right list.

We should not be comparing Barges and Monoliths anyway. I could say why take a Barge when i can get a two MCs that spawn. Wow. Better than a Terv. Better than a Barge. No. Useful in the heavy slot? Yes.

I dont think Monoliths got even half the nerf the carnifex's did, so I thank the gods I can at least field my monoliths in some games and feel good about it. I just feel dirty putting down a carnifex though lol.

Last nights game, I killed a demon prince in 1 turn of shooting from an annihilation barge ... albeit I was very lucky, when I rolled to hit, i plunked down 4 6's and just grinned as i grabbed a handful of more dice to roll ... *hugs the tesla rule*

Also I shot 2 AB's at a squad of berzerkers that just disembarked from their rhino and it arc'd after killing 6 berzerkers against the side of their rhino and killed that as well.

Felt like a gangster

I've read through this entire thread, do I get a medal? *laughs*

Some points (which have been touched on already)

S8 Ordinance pens AV 12 20/36 times (56%).
S8 Ordinance pens AV 11 27/36 times (75%)

With 3 penetrating AP - hits, the chance of wrecking a vehicle is 42.1%

Oh ya, and 10 tesla shots hit 10 times.
4 Twin-Linked tesla shots hit 5.2 times with a respectably large standard deviation, such that results between 3-8 (inclusive) are all quite common. (I think that respecting the large standard deviation of Tesla weapons is what makes this a bit more difficult for math-novice mathhammer types to understand) Think of it this way, on a re-roll, you have a 1/6 chance to get 3 hits, but a 1/3 chance to re-miss. The math is actually quite complex, as the dice rolls are not quite independent events in the calculation anymore (because of the TL factor, you only get an opportunity for more 6's on a miss of the original dice)

loreweaver wrote:I've read through this entire thread, do I get a medal? *laughs*

Some points (which have been touched on already)

S8 Ordinance pens AV 12 20/36 times (56%).
S8 Ordinance pens AV 11 27/36 times (75%)

With 3 penetrating AP - hits, the chance of wrecking a vehicle is 42.1%

Oh ya, and 10 tesla shots hit 10 times.
4 Twin-Linked tesla shots hit 5.2 times with a respectably large standard deviation, such that results between 3-8 (inclusive) are all quite common. (I think that respecting the large standard deviation of Tesla weapons is what makes this a bit more difficult for math-novice mathhammer types to understand) Think of it this way, on a re-roll, you have a 1/6 chance to get 3 hits, but a 1/3 chance to re-miss. The math is actually quite complex, as the dice rolls are not quite independent events in the calculation anymore (because of the TL factor, you only get an opportunity for more 6's on a miss of the original dice)

I get your point, but it doesn't really make the math any more complex (or at least it doesn't for me, maybe because math is never complex for me ), but it does mean you need to be more careful in interpreting the results. But like with all math hammering your calculating tendencies, you just need to keep in mind with Tesla that bad luck goes a long way, not hitting any 6s severely diminishes their fire power.

Well said ShadarLogoth, which was the crux of my argument. Looking at the "Average" result from a Tesla weapon isn't the same as looking at an "Average" result from anything else in the game.

Although, engage your math-hammer a bit here. If Twin-Linked Tesla were BS3, you'd see more hits (as the opportunity for a chance at another 6 outweighs the chance of missing)

loreweaver wrote:Well said ShadarLogoth, which was the crux of my argument. Looking at the "Average" result from a Tesla weapon isn't the same as looking at an "Average" result from anything else in the game.

Although, engage your math-hammer a bit here. If Twin-Linked Tesla were BS3, you'd see more hits (as the opportunity for a chance at another 6 outweighs the chance of missing)

Yeah I saw some one mention that the other day and had to hammer it out to confirm. That's a bit of an oddity isn't it? Trading a confirmed hit on a 3 for a 16.7% chance to get 3 hits, a 33% chance to get the same one hit back, and a 50% chance to get nothing at all, yet some how it works in your favour. I'll have to mull that over a bit.

(My thinking is the 1 hit you got from the 4BS die roll of 3 should be greater then the potentiality of 3(1/6)+1(1/3)+0(1/2) but that works out to .83, so your trading a guaranteed one for a .833 potential, but somehow the math doesn't work out like that. I'm sure there's something I'm overlooking there just haven't pinpointed it yet.)

the math is that you are trading a 1/6 chance to hit for an average of .25

(1/2 chance to miss X 1/6 chance to get 3 hits) or (1/6 chance to roll a 3).

.5*1/6*3=.25

1/6=.167