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Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/30 23:35:05


Post by: Samus_aran115


http://www.military.com/news/article/2011/hundreds-of-iraqis-cheer-departure-of-us-forces.html?comp=700001075741&rank=2

BAGHDAD - Hundreds of Sunni Muslims gathered in Baghdad Friday to celebrate the withdrawal of American forces, but in a sign of the sectarian divisions that re-emerged immediately after their departure, Shiite Muslims did not join the event.
The celebration took place near the Abu Hanifa mosque, the main house of worship in the primarily Sunni neighborhood of Azamiyah in northern Baghdad. To secure the event, Iraqi troops blocked traffic on roads leading to the mosque and searched people approaching the area.
During the rally, men and children waved Iraqi flags and raised banners praising those who resisted the U.S. presence in Iraq.
"Baghdad is the castle of resistance," one banner read. "The deeds of the heroes are stronger than the weapons of the occupiers," read another banner. Women threw chocolates to the crowd as a sign of joy.

In his sermon, the mosque's preacher, Sheik Ahmed al-Taha, accused the Americans of stirring up sectarian tension among Iraqis.
"The occupiers created the sectarian conflict as an exit from the quagmire they found themselves in when they were facing 200 military operations against them every day. By dividing Iraqis, the Americans made Iraqis attack each other instead of attacking them," al-Taha told worshippers.
The preacher also called on the government to demand compensation from the Americans for the loss of lives and damage caused during the occupation.
The lingering sectarian divisions Iraq faces was clear during the prayer service and rally, which was almost entirely Sunni. Shiites had been invited to join the celebration but did not show up.
Shiites have even given the departure of the U.S. forces a different name than the Sunnis have. Sunnis generally call it the "evacuation day," whereas Shiites often refer to it as the "fulfillment day" as a way to show that Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who leads a Shiite-dominated government, fulfilled his promise to get all the troops out of the country.
Tensions between Sunnis and Shiites have deepened since al-Maliki's government issued an arrest warrant for the country's top Sunni politician. The government is also trying to push out another member of his government, leaving many Sunnis to question whether they will ever have a place in the Iraqi power structure.
In spite of the problems, some Sunnis were optimistic.
Omar Abdul-Aziz, 28, said the sectarian conflicts Iraq experienced just a few years ago "won't be repeated because Iraqis now understand that sectarianism was planned by the occupiers."


Thought this was interesting. I had no idea the scale to which they hated us.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/30 23:50:54


Post by: Jihadin


Eating popcorn as I watch the country go onsane on Fox news


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 00:19:05


Post by: AustonT


"Baghdad is the castle of resistance," one banner read. "The deeds of the heroes are stronger than the weapons of the occupiers," read another banner. Women threw chocolates to the crowd as a sign of joy.

Next time we'll just do what J. Khan did and build pyramids.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 00:21:53


Post by: Necroshea


Well now that we're gone we don't have to worry about our troops getting killed when the people over there have a religious disagreement and blow each other up to solve things.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 00:34:57


Post by: FabricatorGeneralMike


Necroshea wrote:Well now that we're gone we don't have to worry about our troops getting killed when the people over there have a religious disagreement and blow each other up to solve things.


Which honestly is how it should of been all along. I honestly believe Dubya just wanted to finish what daddy started. But thats a whole nother can of worms.

I am just glad that the service men and women can be re-united with there loved ones.

Thank you to everyone who had served their country.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 00:36:53


Post by: Samus_aran115


I have a feeling that in a couple months, the place is going to go to gak..... But that's just my opinion. It might be a perfectly happy little place with no strife or crime


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 03:10:59


Post by: Jihadin


Samus. Isthat a shiba inu you have there?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 03:15:09


Post by: SlaveToDorkness




Can't happen soon enough.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 03:19:04


Post by: Jihadin


Iran working on that...maybe not...if they block the straight of hormuz


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 04:36:39


Post by: CT GAMER




The winning of hearts and minds...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 04:39:36


Post by: schadenfreude


Jihadin wrote:Iran working on that...maybe not...if they block the straight of hormuz


Pure sabre rattling in the name of screwing with world oil prices. Iran knows it can't win a air+ sea only war against the us and saudi arabia.

Back onto the topic of Iraq: there is the fox news spin, and then there is the actual reality of what is going on.

The iraqis are happy about us leaving for several reasons.

US troops gone means they have an independent state again.

Their democraticly elected government was functional enough to ask us to leave and take over on their own.

The stated goal of Al Qadea in Iraq was to force the USA to stay inside iraq so they can bleed our treasury. They were fighting to force us to stay, and we were fighting to leave. Iraqis don't like Al Quada because they are forigners from other arab nations comming into their country to wreck up the place and turn it into a permanent warzone. American troops leaving was a huge blow to Al Qaeda, so expect a few more attacks in a last desperate push to attempt tricking the us and iraqi government to bring back us troops.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 05:28:16


Post by: Medium of Death


I think the West needs a slow clap for it's efforts in Iraq.

We have increased the number of people that hate us, done nothing reliable for the people and wasted lots of good soldiers lives in the process..

Well done us.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 05:31:29


Post by: Mannahnin


Samus_aran115 wrote:http://www.military.com/news/article/2011/hundreds-of-iraqis-cheer-departure-of-us-forces.html?comp=700001075741&rank=2

BAGHDAD - Hundreds of Sunni Muslims gathered in Baghdad Friday to celebrate the withdrawal of American forces,


Thought this was interesting. I had no idea the scale to which they hated us.


That only hundreds gathered, in a country of over thirty million people? I didn't realize so few of them hated us either.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 10:29:03


Post by: mattyrm


Medium of Death wrote:I think the West needs a slow clap for it's efforts in Iraq.

We have increased the number of people that hate us, done nothing reliable for the people and wasted lots of good soldiers lives in the process..

Well done us.


Hey it's not a total loss, there's a million less Iraqi's to worry about!


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 12:10:26


Post by: Mr Hyena


I hope someone nukes these animals. They lived in a tyranny under Saddam and the West freed them. Now we're being blamed for their animalistic behaviour? Im gonna enjoy watching the country go to hell.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 12:47:15


Post by: Relapse


Mannahnin wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:http://www.military.com/news/article/2011/hundreds-of-iraqis-cheer-departure-of-us-forces.html?comp=700001075741&rank=2

BAGHDAD - Hundreds of Sunni Muslims gathered in Baghdad Friday to celebrate the withdrawal of American forces,


Thought this was interesting. I had no idea the scale to which they hated us.


That only hundreds gathered, in a country of over thirty million people? I didn't realize so few of them hated us either.


I was wondering the same thing. I also noted that the group, according to the article, consisted of Sunnis. Others had been invited but declined to come.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 12:56:15


Post by: CptJake


Relapse wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:http://www.military.com/news/article/2011/hundreds-of-iraqis-cheer-departure-of-us-forces.html?comp=700001075741&rank=2

BAGHDAD - Hundreds of Sunni Muslims gathered in Baghdad Friday to celebrate the withdrawal of American forces,


Thought this was interesting. I had no idea the scale to which they hated us.


That only hundreds gathered, in a country of over thirty million people? I didn't realize so few of them hated us either.


I was wondering the same thing. I also noted that the group, according to the article, consisted of Sunnis. Others had been invited but declined to come.


But noticing that doesn't fit in with the USA = BAD message that you are supposed to understand.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 14:08:21


Post by: Pacific


Mr Hyena wrote:I hope someone nukes these animals. They lived in a tyranny under Saddam and the West freed them. Now we're being blamed for their animalistic behaviour? Im gonna enjoy watching the country go to hell.


I've added bold type to the parts of your comment that I feel you would benefit from reading more about.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 14:33:40


Post by: Samus_aran115


Jihadin wrote:Samus. Isthat a shiba inu you have there?


Actually, it's an Akita, which is more or less the big brother of the Shiba

Love Japanese dogs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mannahnin wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:http://www.military.com/news/article/2011/hundreds-of-iraqis-cheer-departure-of-us-forces.html?comp=700001075741&rank=2

BAGHDAD - Hundreds of Sunni Muslims gathered in Baghdad Friday to celebrate the withdrawal of American forces,


Thought this was interesting. I had no idea the scale to which they hated us.


That only hundreds gathered, in a country of over thirty million people? I didn't realize so few of them hated us either.


I don't think the number of people who showed up has much to do with it. It's just the principle that they literally threw a ball because they're so happy to see us go makes me think they hated us like the devil. I'm sure the people who didn't show up sympathize with the sentiment.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 14:41:54


Post by: CptJake


Samus_aran115 wrote:I don't think the number of people who showed up has much to do with it. It's just the principle that they literally threw a ball because they're so happy to see us go makes me think they hated us like the devil. I'm sure the people who didn't show up sympathize with the sentiment.


Plenty of US citizens here in the good ol' USofA protest US military action and cheer when we don't looks good. Guess we all hate ourselves too by your logic.



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 14:46:46


Post by: Samus_aran115


CptJake wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:I don't think the number of people who showed up has much to do with it. It's just the principle that they literally threw a ball because they're so happy to see us go makes me think they hated us like the devil. I'm sure the people who didn't show up sympathize with the sentiment.


Plenty of US citizens here in the good ol' USofA protest US military action and cheer when we don't looks good. Guess we all hate ourselves too by your logic.



Yeah, that's true.

I'm sure more than a couple Iraqis appreciate what we were doing there (whatever that was).


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 15:23:10


Post by: biccat


Samus_aran115 wrote:I don't think the number of people who showed up has much to do with it. It's just the principle that they literally threw a ball because they're so happy to see us go makes me think they hated us like the devil. I'm sure the people who didn't show up sympathize with the sentiment.

Significantly more people than "several hundred" showed up to protest President Obama in the last few years.

Did you have "no idea the scale to which they hated" the President?

There also have been protests in South Korea about our military presence there, does that mean that everyone there hates us too?

In fact, I can only think of a few places where people don't protest their government - North Korea and Cuba spring to mind - does the lack of protests mean they love their governments?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 15:28:02


Post by: Mannahnin


Considering that our entire mission there was ill-founded, and we initiated a war which never needed to happen, and thus are completely responsible for all the death and destruction their country has suffered, I'm pleasantly surprised by how little they hate us,

I think our servicemembers, for the most part, have done a good job of conveying to the people that they talk to and work with every day that we really are and have been trying to help, even if the initial mission was deeply wrongheaded and inadvertently destructive, and despite many instances of brutality exemplied by nightmares like Abu Ghraib and Bagram.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mr Hyena wrote:I hope someone nukes these animals.


I hope you never have to suffer anything like what they've suffered. But perhaps if you had a family member die to a foreign bomb, and/or spent a decade with intermittant electricity and clean water due to a foreign invasion, and had the museums and cultural treasures of your country destroyed and looted due to said invasion, you might be a little more thoughtful. Saddam was a horrible, brutal dictator. But their country was substantially safer for them and more stable before we started bombing.

Mr Hyena wrote:They lived in a tyranny under Saddam and the West freed them.


Sure we freed them. We're also responsible for (by some estimates) the deaths of perhaps a million or more of them. Even if ONLY the people who lost immediate family members due to our actions were angry enough at us to protest, that would be what? Five million, ten million, more?

Mr Hyena wrote:Now we're being blamed for their animalistic behaviour?


Holding a protest is "animalistic behavior"? The mere fact that so few of them are cheering our departure is a sign that the vast majority of them recognize that we came into it with good (if musguided) intentions, and are trying to move on with their lives rather than holding onto their hate. Dismissing them as animals would be deeply stupid and thoughtless.

Mr Hyena wrote: Im gonna enjoy watching the country go to hell.


I'm going to do you the favor of assuming that's internet hyperbole. If it's actually true, then you need to grow up and become a better person.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 16:15:00


Post by: mattyrm


As I've said before, I did two tours of Iraq convinced it was a good idea, with age and hindsight I now think it was pretty pointless. I lost some good friends over there as well, so I cant help but feel like maybe it was a waste of time. I also feel aggrieved that one of the main reasons we may have went was because Bush thought Jesus would have liked the idea.

Although, no actually I'm really glad I went because I was desperate to go to a proper war, and that was the first time I got to do a cool fast roping assault in a chopper and fire a machine gun at someone, so I definitely got something out of it.

I didn't get to stab anyone though, or run anyone over with an armoured vehicle.

.......

That was what Afghanistan was for!



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 16:23:21


Post by: Samus_aran115


I'm sure plenty of soldiers were convinced that they were doing the right thing there, and there's nothing wrong with that. There will always be guys that are convinced it's bs and make it miserable for themselves too though.



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 16:30:38


Post by: Mannahnin


Once we were in, it was just the job of the soldiers to try to do the best they could. Try to do their jobs with humanity and not brutality. Try to stay alive and get back to their families.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 16:36:29


Post by: mattyrm


Mannahnin wrote:Once we were in, it was just the job of the soldiers to try to do the best they could. Try to do their jobs with humanity and not brutality. Try to stay alive and get back to their families.


Hey whenever I opened an MRE I always threw my skittles to the local kids.

It was the least I could do after throwing grenades at their Dad's.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 16:46:32


Post by: RiTides


Mannahnin wrote:I think our servicemembers, for the most part, have done a good job of conveying to the people that they talk to and work with every day that we really are and have been trying to help...

I'm glad you think this. Personally, I am very grateful for the men and women who go to war to fight on our (and in this case, others') behalf.

Do I think the war was ill-advised? Do I think that there were things that were handled very badly? Do I think that we made a lot of mistakes as a country? The answer to all of these may be "yes"... but the fact is, Americans have been over there trying to keep the peace and help the country reestablish itself for years now. If they are cheering the soldiers departure, that's fine... but imo the "macro" issues do not diminish that heroic effort that so many men and women have made, for a country they have no personal reason to defend.

I like to focus on the individual sacrifices made in war... yes, Iraqis have been through a ton. But so have Americans on their behalf. The fact that our "country" got them into the mess doesn't diminish what individual men and women do to try to make things right. If the local people want to cheer their departure... again, that's their right (won for them by American soldiers) but they're missing the point of what those men and women have done for them, imo.

They can fight for their own rights, liberty, and freedom now... a shame it's not farther along than it is, but in the end people have to stand for themselves and their country, and it is time for them to do that. Hopefully, they make it through fine...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 16:58:45


Post by: AustonT


I was pretty convinced that it was pointless crapstorm both times I was there, but as it turns out soldiers don't make policy.

The number of attendees might be misleading in several directions. There might be a large number of people who were unable to come due to lack of transportation, work, or other concerns. Maybe more people came than represent the demographics of even Sunnis because this is a rich highly motivated core. Maybe the Sunnis are under represented because squads of 3-5 of them are roaming the streets of Shi,ite neighborhoods to kidnap, torture, and execute their fine neighbors in the name of the God the share, and are therefor too busy to come.
I'm not impressed by thier rally, and Baghdad as a capital of resistance is laughable. Maybe it was the capital for guys who had the idea to import Syrian and Iranian clerics and fighters to form the core of thier resistance...in Magmudiya. You can't have them in your front lawn of course.
I for one welcome Iraq into the world of free government. feth You Iraq. I say not a penny of our money or another drop of our blood goes to that craphole. If they implode, good riddance.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:01:43


Post by: A Kvlt Ghost


Samus_aran115 wrote:I had no idea the scale to which they hated us.


You could probably have made a decent guess based on the fact that you invaded their country, slaughtered tens of thousands of their citizens, set up torture camps, detained hundreds of people in defiance of international law, subjected them to sanctions which led to mass starvation and had the audacity to demand their grattitude in the process based on the fact that you overthrew a dictator you put into power in the first place.

It's amazing more of them don't hate you. And by "you" I mean us, since our lickspittle labour government decided it'd be a great idea to hurl our servicemen and women into the mess as your dogsbodies getting hundreds of them killed or injured for absolutely no benefit to our national interests.

Honestly, how can anyone be surprised or indignant that they hate us? How would you react if someone invaded the your homeland? would you believe them if they told you it was "for your own good" and you should be grateful? Would you even care why they said they were there? I'm guessing you'd fight them tooth and nail and hate them for every bomb dropped, every countryman killed, and every inch of your soil they left their bootprints in. I certainly hope you would, that's the normal response to being invaded unless you happen to be Vichy.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:03:54


Post by: Mannahnin


While you have some reasonable points, the way you choose to express them is an obstruction to friendly communication about them.

It also doesn't help when you mix in mischaracterizations like "torture camps". It just gets people angry at you and obscures your better points.



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:12:15


Post by: A Kvlt Ghost


Samus_aran115 wrote:I'm sure plenty of soldiers were convinced that they were doing the right thing there, and there's nothing wrong with that.


Yes there is, it's a tragedy. They've been sold a lie by their government, and if they die for nothing they won't even realise it. Their misplaced pride and righteousness prevents them from seeing that lives are being thrown away by cynical governments for profit margin increases, the dictates of ivory-tower thinktanks or the absurdities of religion.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:14:33


Post by: biccat


A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:I had no idea the scale to which they hated us.


You could probably have made a decent guess based on the fact that you invaded their country, slaughtered tens of thousands of their citizens, set up torture camps, detained hundreds of people in defiance of international law, subjected them to sanctions which led to mass starvation and had the audacity to demand their grattitude in the process based on the fact that you overthrew a dictator you put into power in the first place.

It's amazing more of them don't hate you. And by "you" I mean us, since our lickspittle labour government decided it'd be a great idea to hurl our servicemen and women into the mess as your dogsbodies getting hundreds of them killed or injured for absolutely no benefit to our national interests.

Honestly, how can anyone be surprised or indignant that they hate us? How would you react if someone invaded the your homeland? would you believe them if they told you it was "for your own good" and you should be grateful? I'm guessing you'd fight them tooth and nail and hate them for every bomb dropped, every countryman killed, and every inch of your soil they left their bootprints in. I certainly hope you would, that's the normal response to being invaded unless you happen to be Vichy.

If my country was being ruled by a brutal dictator who threatened its neighbors, conscripted people to war, used chemical weapons on its own people, imprisoned political opponents and fomented religious bigotry I'd actually be pretty happy with another country coming in and taking him out.

If a minority religious group then used that as an excuse to start a quasi-religious war and terrorize innocent civilians under the name of resisting the 'occupiers' - particularly by means of foreign mercenaries - I'd like to have those guys stick around.

Even if the occupiers were the ones who put the guy in power in the first place (or some rumors support that interpretation) I'd appreciate their help.

In contrast, if I were one of the ones who were in power before the invasion and was subject to retaliation for my acts of torture and murder during the dictator's reign, I'd probably try to convince others that the 'occupiers' were imperial oppressors, rather than people helping to free us. And given that I'd have had no compulsions against killing innocents before, I'd keep it up during the occupation to gain support against the foreign invaders. I'd probably also pay attention to the anti-war movement in the occupiers' home country and play into their hands.

Of course, the Anti-War movement in the home country would insist that they're completely immune from criticism. After all, useful idiots simply don't exist.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:23:01


Post by: Mannahnin


biccat wrote:Of course, the Anti-War movement in the home country would insist that they're completely immune from criticism. After all, useful idiots simply don't exist.


You had a lot of reasonable points. But characterizing the anti-war movement as one monolithic thing which insists "that they're completely immune from criticism" was not one.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:25:01


Post by: A Kvlt Ghost


Mannahnin wrote:While you have some reasonable points, the way you choose to express them is an obstruction to friendly communication about them.


True.

Mannahnin wrote:It also doesn't help when you mix in mischaracterizations like "torture camps". It just gets people angry at you and obscures your better points.


I don't think it's a mischaracterization at all - that's exactly what Abu Ghraib and the salt pit were and calling them anything else is self-censorship at best and outright sanitization of history at worst. Nobody would flinch at calling similar institutions in, say, North Korea the same thing.

It may be a mischaracterization of some of the things caught under the umbrella of the term, though, sure. I was deliberately using provocative language.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
biccat wrote:Even if the occupiers were the ones who put the guy in power in the first place (or some rumors support that interpretation) I'd appreciate their help.


You'd seriously be ok with living under foreign military occupation? I can't get my head around that. I don't understand how that could be acceptable to anyone, let alone people in a nation that fought a costly war for its independance.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:31:30


Post by: dogma


A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
You could probably have made a decent guess based on the fact that you invaded their country...


Reasonable.

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
...slaughtered tens of thousands of their citizens...


Not reasonable. Kill, sure. Slaughtered, no. Slaughter implies systematic action. We did not systematically kill Iraqi citizens.

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
...set up torture camps...


I wouldn't say torture camps, but committed acts of torture. The purpose of US detention wasn't universally torturous.

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
...detained hundreds of people in defiance of international law...


This is basically a Western problem.

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
...subjected them to sanctions which led to mass starvation and had the audacity to demand their grattitude in the process based on the fact that you overthrew a dictator you put into power in the first place.


We didn't put Saddam into power, he did that on his own. He was quite talented in the brutal arts.

The sanctions also weren't merely our responsibility.

A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
It's amazing more of them don't hate you. And by "you" I mean us, since our lickspittle labour government decided it'd be a great idea to hurl our servicemen and women into the mess as your dogsbodies getting hundreds of them killed or injured for absolutely no benefit to our national interests.


You don't have a national interest in being a close military ally of the United States?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:31:35


Post by: Do_I_Not_Like_That


What a bunch of ungrateful wretches. We illegally invade them, bomb the brown stuff out of them, maim thousands, allow Iran to sneak through the back door, and kill the guy who was lovingly oppressing them. Scum! Every man jack of them!



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:39:43


Post by: mattyrm


A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:I'm sure plenty of soldiers were convinced that they were doing the right thing there, and there's nothing wrong with that.


Yes there is, it's a tragedy. They've been sold a lie by their government, and if they die for nothing they won't even realise it. Their misplaced pride and righteousness prevents them from seeing that lives are being thrown away by cynical governments for profit margin increases, the dictates of ivory-tower thinktanks or the absurdities of religion.


I have to ask, do you know many soldiers?

Or are you just one of these anti-war hippy types who thinks that the vast majority of professional soldiers are lackwits at best, and murdering baby rapers at worst?

Many soldiers thought that Iraq was a war too far considering AQ were the main reason for our (quite rightly) entering Afghanistan. Modern soldiers are products of a modern age. Contrary to what you may think about military training, it doesnt mean you arent allowed to think for yourself. Many soldiers had reservations, but you signed on the dotted line, you knucjle down and do to job to the best of your ability anyway. Thats what being a professional is all about, be it playing to win against your favourite football team, carrying out compliacted surgery on the bloke who has been shagging your wife, or deciding to become a professional soldier.

But why then does that mean we have "misplaced pride and righteousness"

I don't understand what one has to do with the other.

I'm proud because I earned by green beret. You can buy one for 8 quid, but its worthless unless you earned it. Thanks to gritting my teeth and forcing myself through 32 weeks of commando training, I can stay awake for three days and then push my body so hard I gak blood and puke. And if you ARE faster, stronger, fitter and more mentally robust than the average Joe, how is that pride misplaced?

And don't even start me on the self righteousness thing, because I think you really are in cloud cuckoo land if you think that is why the majority of people join the armed forces. I mean really.. do you think we actually care about being right?!

We care about winning!


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 17:42:53


Post by: dogma


biccat wrote:
If my country was being ruled by a brutal dictator who threatened its neighbors, conscripted people to war, used chemical weapons on its own people, imprisoned political opponents and fomented religious bigotry I'd actually be pretty happy with another country coming in and taking him out.


That's nice and all, but what you would be given a particular state of affairs is not relevant to what someone else is. Particularly when that someone else lives in a place in which the terms and concepts we conventionally apply to living in a place are largely imposed, and therefore significantly different from our conventional usage of them.

The country of Iraq is a Western concept, not an indigenous one, this cannot be emphasized enough.

biccat wrote:
If a minority religious group then used that as an excuse to start a quasi-religious war and terrorize innocent civilians under the name of resisting the 'occupiers' - particularly by means of foreign mercenaries - I'd like to have those guys stick around.


You think the insurgency in Iraq was primarily religious, one group, and that the collected groups can be dismissed as a minority?

I suppose that's one opinion, not one based on reason mind you, but an opinion of sorts. The Iraqi insurgency was, and remains to the extent that it still exists, quite a diverse group. Even the religious classifications that we used to describe certain segments of it are not wholly accurate regarding the motivations of their members.

biccat wrote:
Even if the occupiers were the ones who put the guy in power in the first place (or some rumors support that interpretation) I'd appreciate their help.


I sincerely doubt that, especially given your nominal position regarding small government.

biccat wrote:
In contrast, if I were one of the ones who were in power before the invasion and was subject to retaliation for my acts of torture and murder during the dictator's reign, I'd probably try to convince others that the 'occupiers' were imperial oppressors, rather than people helping to free us. And given that I'd have had no compulsions against killing innocents before, I'd keep it up during the occupation to gain support against the foreign invaders. I'd probably also pay attention to the anti-war movement in the occupiers' home country and play into their hands.

Of course, the Anti-War movement in the home country would insist that they're completely immune from criticism. After all, useful idiots simply don't exist.


This presumes that Iraq was, and remained, a useful venture which all people should support.

Of course, this is not the case, as it is perfectly reasonable to value other things (minimal expenditure on warfare, soldiers deployed in non-hostile places, family members not being at risk, etc.) over any particular set of victory conditions in Iraq.

In essence, you are not making an argument so much as baiting on the basis of ideologically Republican principles.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 20:43:51


Post by: Samus_aran115


A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:I'm sure plenty of soldiers were convinced that they were doing the right thing there, and there's nothing wrong with that.


Yes there is, it's a tragedy. They've been sold a lie by their government, and if they die for nothing they won't even realise it. Their misplaced pride and righteousness prevents them from seeing that lives are being thrown away by cynical governments for profit margin increases, the dictates of ivory-tower thinktanks or the absurdities of religion.


Take a chill pill man, you're being way too hostile about this. I'm not entirely disagreeing either. I can just feel the venom in your words. There are other ways to get your point across besides gaking on the sacrifices our men and women have made for our country, righteous or not.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 21:14:04


Post by: CT GAMER


biccat wrote:
threatened its neighbors, used chemical weapons on its own people, and fomented religious bigotry I'd actually be pretty happy with another country coming in and taking him out.


These have happened recently in the US, not to mention religious bigotry is an American staple...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
mattyrm wrote: As I've said before, I did two tours of Iraq convinced it was a good idea, with age and hindsight I now think it was pretty pointless. I lost some good friends over there as well, so I cant help but feel like maybe it was a waste of time. I also feel aggrieved that one of the main reasons we may have went was because Bush thought Jesus would have liked the idea.

Although, no actually I'm really glad I went because I was desperate to go to a proper war, and that was the first time I got to do a cool fast roping assault in a chopper and fire a machine gun at someone, so I definitely got something out of it.

I didn't get to stab anyone though, or run anyone over with an armoured vehicle.

.......

That was what Afghanistan was for!



When does the Mattyrm action figure come out?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 21:20:58


Post by: dogma


CT GAMER wrote:
biccat wrote:
threatened its neighbors, used chemical weapons on its own people, and fomented religious bigotry I'd actually be pretty happy with another country coming in and taking him out.


These have happened recently in the US, not to mention religious bigotry is an American staple...


I'm also wondering where, in Arab nationalism (The Ba'ath Party is an Arab nationalist party), religious bigotry fits in. Saddam's Iraq was many things, but religiously intolerant was not one of them (at least as goes the state).


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2011/12/31 21:54:59


Post by: BuFFo


Samus_aran115 wrote:Thought this was interesting. I had no idea the scale to which they hated us.


Yeah, all few hundred of them.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 02:55:09


Post by: Mr Hyena


kill the guy who was lovingly oppressing them.


I'm sure using Chemical Weapons on his people was 'lovingly oppressing' them, amirite?

Sure we freed them. We're also responsible for (by some estimates) the deaths of perhaps a million or more of them. Even if ONLY the people who lost immediate family members due to our actions were angry enough at us to protest, that would be what? Five million, ten million, more?


And how many died under Saddam's regime, by his actions? Will we ever find out?


Holding a protest is "animalistic behavior"? The mere fact that so few of them are cheering our departure is a sign that the vast majority of them recognize that we came into it with good (if musguided) intentions, and are trying to move on with their lives rather than holding onto their hate. Dismissing them as animals would be deeply stupid and thoughtless.


Animalistic behaviour = killing each of their own people like dogs. But then; not even animals kill each other for such stupid reasons.


I'm going to do you the favor of assuming that's internet hyperbole. If it's actually true, then you need to grow up and become a better person.


It isn't. We came in and got rid of Saddam for them. Yes, we had to stay, but it was to try and make the region safer and better for them. Yet what did we do the moment we left? they went back to blowing each other up. They completely tossed away their one chance. Thats why I couldn't give one flying feth what happens to the people there; all of them.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 03:19:48


Post by: biccat


CT GAMER wrote:
biccat wrote:
threatened its neighbors, used chemical weapons on its own people, and fomented religious bigotry I'd actually be pretty happy with another country coming in and taking him out.


These have happened recently in the US, not to mention religious bigotry is an American staple...

One needs only to look to the Dakka forums to find evidence of the latter.

As to the former, I'm pretty sure we haven't "recently" used chemical weapons on Americans. Unless you're talking about chemtrails, of course.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 03:30:07


Post by: dogma


Mr Hyena wrote:
And how many died under Saddam's regime, by his actions? Will we ever find out?


In 2001 42,196 people died in motor vehicle accidents, but the US did not go declare war on motor vehicle operators.

Mr Hyena wrote:
Animalistic behaviour = killing each of their own people like dogs.


Yes, humans do behave as the animals that they are. I'm glad that you recognize this.

Mr Hyena wrote:
We came in and got rid of Saddam for them.




No, we got rid of Saddam for us.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 03:54:18


Post by: purplefood


A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:I'm sure plenty of soldiers were convinced that they were doing the right thing there, and there's nothing wrong with that.


Yes there is, it's a tragedy. They've been sold a lie by their government, and if they die for nothing they won't even realise it. Their misplaced pride and righteousness prevents them from seeing that lives are being thrown away by cynical governments for profit margin increases, the dictates of ivory-tower thinktanks or the absurdities of religion.

Soldiers are people not robots. That's why it's bad when/if they die...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 17:10:45


Post by: Albatross


CT GAMER wrote:
mattyrm wrote: As I've said before, I did two tours of Iraq convinced it was a good idea, with age and hindsight I now think it was pretty pointless. I lost some good friends over there as well, so I cant help but feel like maybe it was a waste of time. I also feel aggrieved that one of the main reasons we may have went was because Bush thought Jesus would have liked the idea.

Although, no actually I'm really glad I went because I was desperate to go to a proper war, and that was the first time I got to do a cool fast roping assault in a chopper and fire a machine gun at someone, so I definitely got something out of it.

I didn't get to stab anyone though, or run anyone over with an armoured vehicle.

.......

That was what Afghanistan was for!



When does the Mattyrm action figure come out?

The mad thing is, Matty isn't unique amongst Royal Marines in terms of a cheerful and jocular attitude towards ultra-violence. All the ones I've met are like that!


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 17:53:28


Post by: schadenfreude


A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:I'm sure plenty of soldiers were convinced that they were doing the right thing there, and there's nothing wrong with that.


Yes there is, it's a tragedy. They've been sold a lie by their government, and if they die for nothing they won't even realise it. Their misplaced pride and righteousness prevents them from seeing that lives are being thrown away by cynical governments for profit margin increases, the dictates of ivory-tower thinktanks or the absurdities of religion.


Cynically stereotyping an entire groups of people is best left to rednecks making bad jokes about fried chicken.

The motivation of members of the armed forces entering the war depends a lot on when and why they joined. There are plenty that joined/went into Iraq after mission accomplished that did so in the interest of picking up a giant mess that our country made, and plenty of people that joined during the Clinton, Bush 41, or Reagan administration. There are lots of different types of members of the armed forces, lots of different personal motivations , and among them there is a very wide range of intelligence ranging from barely able to score high enough on the asvab to carry a gun, to the best and brightest of a generation.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 19:23:14


Post by: biccat


Mannahnin wrote:You had a lot of reasonable points. But characterizing the anti-war movement as one monolithic thing which insists "that they're completely immune from criticism" was not one.

Are there elements of the anti-war movement that are receptive to criticism that they were being used as tools by the "insurgents"?

Most of the useful idiots during the cold war didn't realize they were being used.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 19:52:02


Post by: dogma


biccat wrote:
Are there elements of the anti-war movement that are receptive to criticism that they were being used as tools by the "insurgents"?


Why is the word in insurgents in quotes?

biccat wrote:
Most of the useful idiots during the cold war didn't realize they were being used.


Do you think that they would have cared?

When you share a goal with a given group, does it matter who makes up that group, or what their other goals might be?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 21:26:09


Post by: Frazzled


biccat wrote:

As to the former, I'm pretty sure we haven't "recently" used chemical weapons on Americans.



Excluding McDonalds of course.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 21:26:22


Post by: biccat


dogma wrote:
biccat wrote:
Are there elements of the anti-war movement that are receptive to criticism that they were being used as tools by the "insurgents"?


Why is the word in insurgents in quotes?

Because the so-called insurgents were supposedly fighting against the US occupation (or so we're led to believe), not against the established government of Iraq, which was the actual authority in Iraq. That makes them something other than insurgents, partisans would be a better label.

If they really are insurgents acting against the legitimate authority in Iraq then it's a mistake for us to leave as it will simply concentrate attacks on the Iraqi government.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 21:37:48


Post by: dogma


biccat wrote:
Because the so-called insurgents were supposedly fighting against the US occupation (or so we're led to believe), not against the established government of Iraq, which was the actual authority in Iraq. That makes them something other than insurgents, partisans would be a better label.

If they really are insurgents acting against the legitimate authority in Iraq then it's a mistake for us to leave as it will simply concentrate attacks on the Iraqi government.


Partisans is another good label, yes. But refusing to accept the label "insurgent" ignores the intimate connection (under the SOFA and otherwise) between US forces and the Iraqi state. Indeed, until recently, US forces effectively were the military and police force of the Iraqi state (though really, the power arrangement went the other way).


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 22:53:18


Post by: Melissia


Personally I'd prefer to stick with insurgents, and have partisan refer to the spear instead.
CT GAMER wrote:These have happened recently in the US, not to mention religious bigotry is an American staple...
No gak...



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 23:15:29


Post by: biccat


dogma wrote:
biccat wrote:
Because the so-called insurgents were supposedly fighting against the US occupation (or so we're led to believe), not against the established government of Iraq, which was the actual authority in Iraq. That makes them something other than insurgents, partisans would be a better label.

If they really are insurgents acting against the legitimate authority in Iraq then it's a mistake for us to leave as it will simply concentrate attacks on the Iraqi government.


Partisans is another good label, yes. But refusing to accept the label "insurgent" ignores the intimate connection (under the SOFA and otherwise) between US forces and the Iraqi state. Indeed, until recently, US forces effectively were the military and police force of the Iraqi state (though really, the power arrangement went the other way).

Which is why I used quotes around the word insurgent.

The insurgents aren't really insurgents. There's not really a very good term for describing them. Even partisan is an imperfect descriptor.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 23:46:46


Post by: dogma


biccat wrote:
The insurgents aren't really insurgents.


Sure they are, they fought against an established civil authority.

biccat wrote:
There's not really a very good term for describing them. Even partisan is an imperfect descriptor.


The fun thing about words is that more than one of them can be used to describe any particular thing.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/01 23:55:59


Post by: Byte


Do you really think the Japanese are happy we are still there? I mean really...

Did you want them to be sad we left?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 01:55:55


Post by: Mannahnin


biccat wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:You had a lot of reasonable points. But characterizing the anti-war movement as one monolithic thing which insists "that they're completely immune from criticism" was not one.

Are there elements of the anti-war movement that are receptive to criticism that they were being used as tools by the "insurgents"?


Here's what you wrote before:

biccat wrote:Of course, the Anti-War movement in the home country would insist that they're completely immune from criticism.


Are you changing what you're talking about, or did you just express yourself badly before? I objected to two ideas you put forward. 1. That "the Anti-war movement" is monolithic. 2. That they "would insist that they're completely immune from criticism". I entirely disagree that anti-war people in general would ever insist that they're completely immune from criticism. I don't think that idea, expressed by you, is defensible. No doubt there are a few self-righteous loons who feel themselves immune to criticism, but most people who opposed the Iraq war aren't self-righteous loons. They're mostly normal human beings, opposing it for real and valid moral and/or practical reasons.

If you're going to just ignore that, and change to a new question based on a more specific and limited criticism, "Are there elements of the anti-war movement that are receptive to criticism that they were being used as tools by the "insurgents"?, then we can move onto that. I think that most thoughtful people who have an anti-Iraq-war stance would not be too bothered by that criticism, as it's one they'd be comfortable disputing. I don't think the insurgents have much impact on the thoughts and opinions of most Americans. There are plenty of good reasons to oppose our military involvement in Iraq independent of any manipulation by the insurgency. Can you point to any examples of insurgents trying to influence American opinion?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 02:32:48


Post by: biccat


dogma wrote:The fun thing about words is that more than one of them can be used to describe any particular thing.

Given a number of your previous comments, I find this a particularly amusing line. Thanks for brightening my day.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 03:03:51


Post by: dogma


biccat wrote:
dogma wrote:The fun thing about words is that more than one of them can be used to describe any particular thing.

Given a number of your previous comments, I find this a particularly amusing line. Thanks for brightening my day.


If that's the case, then you woefully misunderstand my position on just about everything.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 10:54:20


Post by: schadenfreude


Insurgents is probably the most neutral term one can use. Less neutral terms such as partisans, freedom fighters, or terrorists should be avoided if you want people to take you seriously.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 11:20:22


Post by: ParatrooperSimon


WELL... About damn time a say. You guys went their to stop Sadam (Kill) and you did, but yet you stayed to "Free the people and calm things down".. bull crap. What the Americans did was Terrorism, state harboured terrorism on Iraq. Yes their country really isn't much and not a lot of good things are happening. You guys invaded them because you thought Sadam had sent plains to the states and attacked you... WRONG. Iraq had nothing to do with the September attacks but yet you invaded them and terrorised the country or 10+ years.

Now I see comments that "You can wait till they blow each other up" or "They should be nuked". What the FETH!, their people to you know. There Dads, Mothers, Brothers, Sisters, and kids died because of you guys. Mabye you guys thought Baptised Jesus would love you a little more for killing the "Muslim Invadels". But really you just stayed to flex your mussels and get some oil to feed your dying country.

Mabye Jesus wispered in Bush's here and said "Theirs oil in them their hills"

And Yet a lot of the justification is that... "STFU and mind your own damn business while we "save the world"". My back side your saving the world.

I would gladly stand by the Iraqy people and cheer and clap to

Now get the hell out of Afganistan, You've killed the only leader that could work with the waring tribes and bring them together BUT YET YOU STAY... To fix the country or something?... No wonder the world are sick of yoy guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Kvlt Ghost: I like you ;D


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 13:35:06


Post by: CptJake


schadenfreude wrote:Insurgents is probably the most neutral term one can use. Less neutral terms such as partisans, freedom fighters, or terrorists should be avoided if you want people to take you seriously.


When a group sees blowing up civilians in a crowded market as a valid tactic, terrorist is the word I tend to use to describe them.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 14:14:50


Post by: Hulksmash


ParatrooperSimon wrote:WELL... About damn time a say. You guys went their to stop Sadam (Kill) and you did, but yet you stayed to "Free the people and calm things down".. bull crap. What the Americans did was Terrorism, state harboured terrorism on Iraq. Yes their country really isn't much and not a lot of good things are happening. You guys invaded them because you thought Sadam had sent plains to the states and attacked you... WRONG. Iraq had nothing to do with the September attacks but yet you invaded them and terrorised the country or 10+ years.

Now I see comments that "You can wait till they blow each other up" or "They should be nuked". What the FETH!, their people to you know. There Dads, Mothers, Brothers, Sisters, and kids died because of you guys. Mabye you guys thought Baptised Jesus would love you a little more for killing the "Muslim Invadels". But really you just stayed to flex your mussels and get some oil to feed your dying country.

Mabye Jesus wispered in Bush's here and said "Theirs oil in them their hills"

And Yet a lot of the justification is that... "STFU and mind your own damn business while we "save the world"". My back side your saving the world.

I would gladly stand by the Iraqy people and cheer and clap to

Now get the hell out of Afganistan, You've killed the only leader that could work with the waring tribes and bring them together BUT YET YOU STAY... To fix the country or something?... No wonder the world are sick of yoy guys.


There is so much wrong with this post it's almost painful. I won't even get into the grammar and spelling issues

You do realize that no one stated that we were going into Iraq because they were even partly responsible for 9/11 right? I'd also like to see all this oil people seem to think we went to war for. I mean we were there for 10 years, there must be tons of it somewhere And what is "Baptised Jesus" or "Muslim Invadels"?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 14:20:09


Post by: Samus_aran115


ParatrooperSimon wrote:WELL... About damn time a say. You guys went their to stop Sadam (Kill) and you did, but yet you stayed to "Free the people and calm things down".. bull crap. What the Americans did was Terrorism, state harboured terrorism on Iraq. Yes their country really isn't much and not a lot of good things are happening. You guys invaded them because you thought Sadam had sent plains to the states and attacked you... WRONG. Iraq had nothing to do with the September attacks but yet you invaded them and terrorised the country or 10+ years.

Now I see comments that "You can wait till they blow each other up" or "They should be nuked". What the FETH!, their people to you know. There Dads, Mothers, Brothers, Sisters, and kids died because of you guys. Mabye you guys thought Baptised Jesus would love you a little more for killing the "Muslim Invadels". But really you just stayed to flex your mussels and get some oil to feed your dying country.

Mabye Jesus wispered in Bush's here and said "Theirs oil in them their hills"

And Yet a lot of the justification is that... "STFU and mind your own damn business while we "save the world"". My back side your saving the world.

I would gladly stand by the Iraqy people and cheer and clap to

Now get the hell out of Afganistan, You've killed the only leader that could work with the waring tribes and bring them together BUT YET YOU STAY... To fix the country or something?... No wonder the world are sick of yoy guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Kvlt Ghost: I like you ;D


LOL! This is going to be a good day.

First of all, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about. We didn't go into Iraq to hunt terrorists. We usurped a despotic dictator and tried our best to give their country some sort of democratic structure, which actually didn't go so badly.

We killed "the only leader that could work with the waring tribes and bring them together"? Who's that? Osama Bin Laden? If that's what you actually think, I think you should do a little research.

Now I see comments that "You can wait till they blow each other up" or "They should be nuked". What the FETH!, their people to you know. There Dads, Mothers, Brothers, Sisters, and kids died because of you guys. Mabye you guys thought Baptised Jesus would love you a little more for killing the "Muslim Invadels". But really you just stayed to flex your mussels and get some oil to feed your dying country.


Oh god my sides.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 15:04:38


Post by: Melissia


My brain hurts after reading that post...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 15:12:21


Post by: MrDwhitey


This thread already had a good deal of "haha oh wow", but that's brilliant.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 15:12:22


Post by: AustonT


ParatrooperSimon wrote:But really you just stayed to flex your mussels and get some oil to feed your dying country.

It was always my dream to go to a landlocked country and flex my mussels. I like mine with pasta and a white wine sauce.







Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 15:50:42


Post by: Byte


Simon- What say you about Libya? Terrorism by the UN?

Did you know the liberated Iraqi government found some 250 mass graves with over 300,000 civilians? Lets not get into the illegal international human trafficking(for personal use by his sons), torture, murder, and use of chemical weapons on his own people.

Oil? Really. If oil was that desperate we would expand in Alaska and off shore CONUS.

Iraq continuously violated the international mandate to allow unrestricted weapons inspections. The international community was very patient though the whole thing. If anything it shouldn't have taken so long to go back in. Weapon inspections were part of the treaty as well the no fly zone. The US should have insisted on unconditional surrender after the first gulf war.

I've been personally thanked by actual Iraqis for "freeing" them while serving in the Gulf. Before, if an Iraqi talked to an American they could be tortured and killed by the state. Your a clown.

Take off your rose colored glasses.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 15:56:46


Post by: Melissia


What about his rose colored nose?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 16:23:39


Post by: Samus_aran115


AustonT wrote:
ParatrooperSimon wrote:But really you just stayed to flex your mussels and get some oil to feed your dying country.

It was always my dream to go to a landlocked country and flex my mussels. I like mine with pasta and a white wine sauce.







AustonT. I have no words. You're my favorite OT poster, officially.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 16:51:29


Post by: Private_Joker


I looked at the New Zealand flag at the top of his post and lol'd.



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 16:58:00


Post by: mattyrm


AustonT wrote:
ParatrooperSimon wrote:But really you just stayed to flex your mussels and get some oil to feed your dying country.

It was always my dream to go to a landlocked country and flex my mussels. I like mine with pasta and a white wine sauce.


That PS bloke has been writing gak like that for 6 months and been generally ignored, I suggest you ignore him as well instead of ripping on him for the easy lols!

The more you talk about it, the more it looks like anything he writes makes sense or warrants a retort.

You can reply to me though, because everything I write is witty, well thought out and if written in response to anything regarding Islam somewhat bigoted.

Sorry.. ignore that last one.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 17:22:10


Post by: AustonT


Sometimes the easy ones are more satisfying. Unfortunantly now I'm craving mussels...and living in Arizona. Stupid ocean producing delicious shellfish treats. Oh, well Tamale time.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 17:30:12


Post by: Mannahnin


Byte wrote:Did you know the liberated Iraqi government found some 250 mass graves with over 300,000 civilians? Lets not get into the illegal international human trafficking(for personal use by his sons), torture, murder, and use of chemical weapons on his own people.

Iraq continuously violated the international mandate to allow unrestricted weapons inspections. The international community was very patient though the whole thing. If anything it shouldn't have taken so long to go back in. Weapon inspections were part of the treaty as well the no fly zone. The US should have insisted on unconditional surrender after the first gulf war.


No question Saddam's regime was awful. However there are a lot of other dictators and bad guys we don't invade or try to take out, because of an awareness that war can and usually does actually make things worse, and is rarely worth the costs unless it's absolutely necessary. An appalling number of Iraqis have died due to the invasion. No doubt a lot more than Saddam could ever have killed. The country is arguably less stable, politically, less safe to be on the streets (especially for women), and in many ways a more difficult place to live a normal life involving full-time electricity, clean water, and access to education.

This war was primarily sold to the American public and our allies as the response to a direct threat. To a Clear and Present Danger to our nation. Specifically a claim advanced by the previous administration that Saddam had worked with Al Qaeda, and might give them nuclear weapons. There was never any real evidence that Iraq had or was anywhere near getting nuclear capabilities. They were never any direct threat to the US. The only reason any of our major allies supported the invasion at all was because of trumped-up and cherrypicked evidence, presented to them by the one guy (Powell) in the administration whose integrity and expertise were respected and trusted.

If we had done it right, the impact on the Iraqi people and their country and infrastructure would not have been as brutal as it has been. However the initial plans for the occupation and securing the peace were stunningly inadequate and incompetent. The administration did not allocate anywhere near adequate manpower to initially secure and keep safe the critical infrastructure, cultural treasures, and people. They also absolutely shot us in the foot by firing basically the entire military, thus putting a lot of trained guys with weapons out of work rather than using them and making them part of the solution. Instead they became a significant part of the problem.


Byte wrote:I've been personally thanked by actual Iraqis for "freeing" them while serving in the Gulf. Before, if an Iraqi talked to an American they could be tortured and killed by the state


Yup. Many Iraqis are well aware and do appreciate that we were/are trying to do the right thing, and are very glad to be rid of Saddam. Hopefully in the long run it will turn out to have been for the best.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 17:37:03


Post by: mattyrm


AustonT wrote:Sometimes the easy ones are more satisfying. Unfortunantly now I'm craving mussels...and living in Arizona. Stupid ocean producing delicious shellfish treats. Oh, well Tamale time.


Mussels are fething nectar like, I always get them at a restaurant in my home town thats open all night and full of drunks, but for some reason does awesome fresh mussels alongside their kebabs.

However, Tamales are truly wonderful as well, and I am off to California in a week to get some!

By some, I mean a great many.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/02 18:23:16


Post by: schadenfreude


The mistakes made before we went into Iraq are somewhat understandable. It's as simple as this: People believe what they want to believe. It was post 9/11, and W along with most of the country wasn't thinking straight. When we got conflicting information that on one hand said a psychotic despot is developing WMDs and jerking around the inspectors searching for WMDs, and on the other hand we got information that his WMD program was in ruins, and we has just been jerking around inspectors for years because he was afraid if his own people knew for sure that he had no WMDs they would revolt. The bulk of all credible intelligence favored the later, which turned out to be true, but the nation's leaders made the classic mistake of believing what they wanted to believe rather than keeping a detached objective view of the facts. The main thing we should learn from the decision to invade is not to elect leaders that are hot headed or shoot from the hip when it comes to using military force.

The mistakes made after the statue fell and W's infamous mission accomplished photo are completely unforgivable. There is an ugly fact both the pro Iraq war people and the anti Iraq war people chose to ignore. If it wasn't for our own incompetence we could have left Iraq 8 years ago with a more stable Iraqi government in place than what we have now. There was no insurgency after "Major combat operations in Iraq ended". The insurgency was created by the incompetent mistakes made by the CPA. It's as simple as this: L Paul Bremer was far more incompetent than Michael D Brown. There was no insurgency before the CPA started an insurgency, and between the time of "Mission accomplished" and CPA orders #1 & #2 we were being greeted as liberators. The sad fact is almost every American that was killed or maimed in Iraq since April 21st 2003 until the time we left last year died because of the incompetence of the CPA that we set up.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 02:03:21


Post by: ParatrooperSimon


Please try to express your thoughts in a more constructive and friendly manner. Thanks. -Mannahnin


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 02:10:00


Post by: BrassScorpion


If some people in the US are just now discovering the horrors created in Iraq by the invasion of it then clearly some people have not been paying attention since 2003. The murders, destruction of infrastructure, civil war, kidnappings, oppression of women, it's all been out there though not as well covered as it could have been.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/165097/goodbye-iraq

Goodbye, Iraq
Robert Dreyfuss on December 12, 2011 - 10:42am ET

As David Letterman pointed out, we might tell the last American troops leaving Iraq this month to turn out the lights, but that isn’t necessary since there’s no electricity.

Today, President Obama meets Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki to ceremonially mark the end of the war. After eight and half years, the United States is leaving behind a nation and a society that has been utterly devastated by the misguided and illegal war. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead, and an entire generation of children is scarred and traumatized. Iraq’s infrastructure and its industry were destroyed. And in place of Saddam Hussein is Maliki, a religious Shiite fundamentalist with close ties to Iran who is fast building an authoritarian regime.

But that’s not good enough for neoconservatives and many Republicans, who want to expand and continue the war and the American presence.

As the Washington Post reported over the weekend, Iraqis don’t exactly have fond feelings for the United States. The legacy of sectarian and ethnic massacres and mass killings by US forces lingers. The Post’s article, “Civilian killings created insurmountable hurdle to extended U.S. troop presence in Iraq,” highlighted the horrific massacre at Haditha, where US Marines shot and killed nineteen civilians, including ten women and children, in a frenzy of savagery. Reports the Post:

On those facts, U.S. and Iraqi accounts agree. On just about everything else—why it happened, whether it was justified and how it was resolved—they do not.

And in those dueling perceptions, over the killings in Haditha and others nationwide, lay the undoing of the U.S. military’s hopes of maintaining a long-term presence here. When it came to deciding the future of American troops in Iraq, the irreconcilable difference that stood in the way of an agreement was a demand by Iraqi politicians for an end to the grant of immunity that has protected on-duty U.S. soldiers from Iraqi courts.

In the Christian Science Monitor, describing the experiences of the Khafaji family, Scott Peterson reminds us of the almost unimaginable losses suffered by Iraqis, many of whom blame the United States for their trauma even if some of the deaths were caused by Iraqis, including the resistance:

Iraq’s fragile social fabric has been shredded by the kinds of bombings, killings, torture, and upheavals that afflicted so many like the Khafaji family—whether at the hands of Sunni extremists like Al Qaeda, Shiite militias, or US and Iraqi forces. While the US lost more than 4,500 soldiers—and spent nearly $1 trillion—the human toll on the Iraqi side is virtually unquantifiable and unimaginable, with estimates of the number of people who perished in the years of insurgency and sectarian civil war reaching into the hundreds of thousands.

Fred and Kim Kagan, in a Post op-ed, point out correctly that Maliki is aggrandizing power, rounding up Sunnis and supposed Baathists willy-nilly, while refusing to relinquish his hold on the defense and interior ministries. But they overstep by criticizing the Obama administration for not taking stronger action to try to shape Iraqi politics and security affairs to American liking:

Obama administration policy presumes that Maliki generally shares U.S. interests and will pursue them even without significant American assistance. Were that true, Maliki would aggressively protect American civilian and diplomatic personnel who have been threatened by the cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and recently targeted to such a degree that the embassy has restricted their travel. He would direct security forces to act against Iranian-sponsored militias in Iraq. Rather than abstaining, he would have supported the Arab League’s vote to suspend Syrian membership. He would see to it that Ali Mussa Daqduq, the Lebanese Hezbollah operative responsible for the execution of American soldiers in Karbala in 2007, is transferred to U.S. custody or tried in Iraq and punished for his crimes. He would appoint a permanent minister of defense and an interior minister acceptable to Parliament rather than concentrating those powers in his office.

Fact is, Maliki runs Iraq, not the United States. He’s there because the United States catapulted him and a bunch of other exiles, many linked to Iran, into power after 2003. There’s little or nothing that the United States can or should do to insert itself into Iraqi politics now. With luck, Iraqi nationalism will reassert itself vis-à-vis Iran, and Iraq will likely rely in the future on cash and investments and technology from Western countries and the Arab nations of the gulf. But if not, and if Iran begins to transform Iraq into a client state and ally, so be it.

The case of Daqduq is especially troubling, since many neocons and Republicans want Obama to sneak him out of the country and put him in Guantánamo, even though doing so would be illegal and a blatant violation of Iraq’s national sovereignty. But as the Times notes, it’s all political:

Republicans, however, are seeking to frame the withdrawal in different terms: that Mr. Obama endangered national security by pulling out of Iraq too soon, and that he should have persuaded the Iraqis to allow United States troops to stay beyond the deadline agreed to by the Bush administration three years ago. Elevating the profile of Mr. Daqduq and highlighting any unsatisfactory outcome to his case could bolster such efforts to cast Mr. Obama’s Iraq record in a negative light.

It’s time to celebrate the end of the war in Iraq, which did not go well. And to remind President Obama that it’s time to end the war in Afghanistan, too.





Uploaded by democracynow on Dec 16, 2011

DemocracyNow.org - Yanar Mohammed, president of the Organization of Women's Freedom in Iraq, is interviewed on Democracy Now! about the impact of the nearly nine-year long U.S. occupation, particularly on Iraqi women. "The Iraqi cities are now much more destroyed than they were five years ago," Mohammed says. "At the same time, we have turned to a society of 99 percent poor and 1 percent rich due to the policies that were imposed in Iraq." Moahmmed decries the repression of Iraqi protesters that joined the Arab Spring in a February 25th action. "The women are the biggest losers in all of this. We went to the Iraqi squares, we demonstrated, but got oppressed in ways that are new to Iraqi people. Anti-riot police of the American style was something that we witnessed there ... This is not a democratic country."

To watch the complete daily, independent news hour, read the transcript, download the podcast, and for for more information about Democracy Now! and nearly 9 years of reports on the Iraq War, visit http://www.democracynow.org/tags/iraq


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 02:10:54


Post by: MrDwhitey


That yellow triangle of friendship is looking real nice.

And hell, I don't even like any of the people being flamed!


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 02:56:38


Post by: AustonT


mattyrm wrote:
AustonT wrote:Sometimes the easy ones are more satisfying. Unfortunantly now I'm craving mussels...and living in Arizona. Stupid ocean producing delicious shellfish treats. Oh, well Tamale time.


Mussels are fething nectar like, I always get them at a restaurant in my home town thats open all night and full of drunks, but for some reason does awesome fresh mussels alongside their kebabs.

However, Tamales are truly wonderful as well, and I am off to California in a week to get some!

By some, I mean a great many.

I call them Mexican Hot Pockets.
My wife and I enlisted my parents to help us make 12 dozen on new years day.
Pork, Chicken, Cheese and Jalepeno varieties. I might start selling them to pay for a cruise for the missus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ParatrooperSimon wrote:Please try to express your thoughts in a more constructive and friendly manner. Thanks. -Mannahnin
Hmmm I feel like I missed out on something.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 03:39:19


Post by: Doklunggraba


At least you guys tried eh.

I think its good that your boys are coming home. And hopefully dont get sent to Afganistan shortly after getting home ...

But you guys did what you thought was best and many died trying to free a broken a people.

Good on yea America


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paratroopersimon: Stop making us look bad please....


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 03:52:31


Post by: King Pariah


Sure our troops are out, but what they don't tell you is that we have thousands of Mercenaries, pardon me, CONTRACTORS, still there.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 03:56:06


Post by: Doklunggraba


King Pariah wrote:Sure our troops are out, but what they don't tell you is that we have thousands of Mercenaries, pardon me, CONTRACTORS, still there.


Ha! It was a test, and you admitted it, I must tell the U.N because they might give a damn ;D


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 06:21:24


Post by: BrassScorpion


I once heard an interview with a WWII veteran talking about how war robs you of everything connected with your humanity and clearly the people who like to start wars have no concept or care what it does to all the humans on both sides. Today, another Iraq war veteran took an innocent life and then lost his own likely due to the stresses from his deployment. There have been numerous tragic cases of suicide and even some other murders committed by "broken" soldiers, both in the front lines and after they get home. This is the latest one.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/02/benjamin-colton-barnes-_n_1179815.html?ir=Green

Benjamin Colton Barnes, Iraq War Veteran Suspected Of Killing Park Ranger, Reportedly Found Dead

MOUNT RAINIER NATIONAL PARK, Wash. — An armed Iraq War veteran suspected of killing a Mount Rainier National Park ranger managed to evade snowshoe-wearing SWAT teams and dogs on his trail for nearly a day. He couldn't, however, escape the cold.

A plane searching the remote wilderness for Benjamin Colton Barnes, 24, on Monday discovered his body lying partially submerged in an icy, snowy mountain creek with snow banks standing several feet high on either side.

"He was wearing T-shirt, a pair of jeans and one tennis shoe. That was it," Pierce County Sheriff's spokesman Ed Troyer said.

Barnes did not have any external wounds and appears to have died due to the elements, he said. A medical examiner was at the scene to determine the cause of death. Troyer said two weapons were recovered, but he declined to say where they were located.

According to police and court documents, Barnes had a troubled transition to civilian life, with accusations in a child custody dispute that he suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder following his Iraq deployments and was suicidal.

The mother of his toddler daughter sought a temporary restraining order against him, according to court documents.

She alleged that he got easily irritated, angry and depressed and kept an arsenal of weapons in his home. She wrote that she feared for the child's safety. Undated photos provided by police showed a shirtless, tattooed Barnes brandishing two large weapons.

The woman told authorities Barnes was suicidal and possibly suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder after deploying to Iraq in 2007-2008, and had once sent her a text message saying "I want to die."

In November 2011, a guardian ad litem recommended parenting and communication classes for both parents as well as a visitation schedule for Barnes until he completed evaluations for domestic violence and mental health and complied with treatment recommendations.

Maj. Chris Ophardt, an Army spokesman, told The News Tribune that Barnes had been stationed at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, near Tacoma, and was released from the Army in November 2009 after two years and seven months on active duty after charges of driving under the influence and improperly transporting privately owned weapons.

Steven Dean, FBI special agent, said Barnes worked in communications.

Barnes is believed to have fled to the remote park on Sunday to hide after an earlier shooting at a New Year's house party near Seattle that wounded four, two critically. Authorities suspect he then fatally shot ranger Margaret Anderson.

Immediately after the park shooting, police cleared out Mount Rainier of visitors and mounted a manhunt.

Fear that tourists could be caught in the crossfire in a shootout with Barnes prompted officials to hold more than a 100 people at the visitors' center before evacuating them in the middle of the night.

Late Sunday, police said Barnes was a suspect in another shooting incident.

On New Year's, there was an argument at a house party in Skyway, south of Seattle, and gunfire erupted, police said. Barnes was connected to the shooting, said Sgt. Cindi West, King County Sheriff's spokeswoman.

Police believe Barnes headed to the remote park wilderness to "hide out" following the Skyway shooting.

"The speculation is that he may have come up here, specifically for that reason, to get away," parks spokesman Kevin Bacher told reporters early Monday. "The speculation is he threw some stuff in the car and headed up here to hide out."

Anderson had set up a roadblock Sunday morning to stop a man who had blown through a checkpoint rangers use to check if vehicles have tire chains for winter conditions. A gunman opened fire on her before she was able to exit her vehicle, authorities say.

Before fleeing, the gunman fired shots at both Anderson and the ranger that trailed him, but only Anderson was hit.

Anderson would have been armed, as she was one of the rangers tasked with law enforcement, Bacher said. Troyer said she was shot before she had even got out of the vehicle.

Park superintendent Randy King said Anderson, a 34-year-old mother of two young girls who was married to another Rainier ranger, had served as a park ranger for about four years.

King said Anderson's husband also was working as a ranger elsewhere in the park at the time of the shooting.

The shooting renewed debate about a federal law that made it legal for people to take loaded weapons into national parks. The 2010 law made possession of firearms subject to state gun laws.

Bill Wade, the outgoing chair of the Coalition of National Park Service Retirees, said Congress should be regretting its decision.

"The many congressmen and senators that voted for the legislation that allowed loaded weapons to be brought into the parks ought to be feeling pretty bad right now," Wade said.

Wade called Sunday's fatal shooting a tragedy that could have been prevented. He hopes Congress will reconsider the law that took effect in early 2010, but doubts that will happen in today's political climate.

Calls and emails to the National Rifle Association requesting comment were not immediately returned on Monday.

The NRA said media fears of gun violence in parks were unlikely to be realized, the NRA wrote in a statement about the law after it went into effect. "The new law affects firearms possession, not use," it said.

The group pushed for the law saying people have a right to defend themselves against park animals and other people.

King said the park would remain closed Tuesday as the investigation continued and the rangers grieve the loss of their colleague.

"We have been through a horrific experience," King said. "We're going to need a little time to regroup."



Here's more on this kind of tragedy involving other soldiers.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/woundedplatoon/journey/

Searching for the Wounded Platoon
The story behind the film ... by producer/reporter Christopher Buchanan
This piece contains graphic language.

I'd been in a prison cell with Kenneth Eastridge for close to two hours, when the seed of an idea that would eventually become The Wounded Platoon was planted.
Kenneth Eastridge

Kenneth Eastridge

Eastridge, a somewhat scrawny looking ex-soldier who'd been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), was serving a 10-year sentence for his part in the murder of another soldier in his infantry company. I was talking with him about what led up to that event, two days after he left the Army, and about his two tours of duty in Iraq. Had he talked with any reporters over there about his combat experience?

"Yeah," Eastridge said, as he fingered his tattoos, a bit sheepish behind his dorky prison-issue glasses. "There was some dude who did an embed with us for a few weeks in Iraq … then wrote up something in some random magazine." That dude was Bartle B. Bull, a freelance journalist, and his article, "With The Band of Brothers in Ramadi" appeared in the May 2005 issue of the now-defunct Radar magazine. Stunningly illustrated with portraits and candid stills by Johan Spanner, the article depicted Eastridge's platoon -- a unit descended from the original World War II "band of brothers" of Normandy and Bastogne fame -- as a motley crew of uneducated misfits, slackers, drunks, and Xbox addicts.

When stacks of that May issue landed with a thud in the barracks of the 1-506th Infantry in Habbaniyah, Iraq, the handful of soldiers who were mentioned in the article -- including Eastridge -- laughed about it. The others, who'd chosen to avoid the reporter or deal with him in that circumspect way soldiers are taught in basic training, found themselves saying, "What about us?"

A platoon is a cohesive unit of about 40 soldiers -- a useful ground-level building block for putting together missions, led by an officer -- usually a young captain who calls the shots -- and a platoon sergeant, who acts as the den mother, among other things. Focusing on a single platoon made sense -- they work together; they live together; they all know each other. But Bull's article dealt with less than a quarter of the platoon. What about the rest of them, indeed?

Starting in March 2009, it was my mission to find all 42 men in the Third Platoon, Charlie Company, 1st Battalion, 506th Regiment, 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 2nd Infantry Division. Were they all like the unsavory but colorful characters in the article? Or were some from a different stereotype -- clean-cut patriots on a mission? Five years after their first deployment, what were they doing now with their lives -- and more importantly, how were they doing? What are their stories? How did fighting a counterinsurgency war affect them, their view of the world and their relationships with the world outside of the Army?

A call to the Army's public affairs office made it clear I was not going to be handed a roster with phone numbers listing all the members of the 2004-05 class of the Third Platoon. Finding them -- in and out of the Army -- turned into a six-month-long exercise of connecting dots, making cold calls to the dozens of Marco Garibays that popped up in a PeopleFinder's database and racking up more than 40,000 frequent flyer miles. (We realized after a couple of telephone calls to laconic and highly suspicious ex-soldiers, the only way to really get to know these guys was sitting across from them at their kitchen tables, in restaurants, bars, coffee shops, and -- in two instances -- prison cells.)

The starting points were Bartle Bull and a piece of notebook paper on which Kenneth Eastridge had scribbled a half-dozen names of his remaining friends from the platoon. Bull had kept in touch with the medic, Ryan "Doc" Krebbs, who happened to be stationed at the time at Fort Belvoir, Va., not far from my home. He agreed to meet me one night at a nearby restaurant -- but never showed up. I waited several hours -- texting, e-mailing, leaving phone messages. No response. It was my first, but not last, introduction to the world of PTSD.
Ryan 'Doc' Krebbs

Ryan "Doc" Krebbs

The next day Krebbs eventually made it to a neighborhood bakery where we sat for most of the afternoon. He'd come from Walter Reed Army Medical Center, after what he thought would be his last examination to qualify for a medical discharge from the Army. Once a gung-ho soldier, Krebbs had a full-blown case of PTSD, was fed up with the Army and embarrassed by the large tattoo on his right forearm: S-O-L-D-I-E-R. As soon as he got out of the Army, which he thought would be in another month or two, he planned to go straight to a tattoo parlor to have vines etched in and around the old tattoo as a way to cover it over, and forget about his life as a medic in the infantry. But putting that behind him would be difficult. Too much had happened; he'd seen too many awful things -- starting with the suicide of a fellow medic in Charlie Company, Omead Razani.

It happened the day after the four platoons of Charlie Company had arrived in Iraq in August 2004. The young Iranian-American's body was found in a Porta John, with a 9mm bullet through his head. Krebbs was filled with guilt and anger. Guilt because he was told Razani had come by his bunk the night before he took his life, wanting to talk, but had found Krebbs sound asleep; anger because he'd heard that prior to that, Razani's platoon sergeant, James Naughton, had criticized Razani as being a "worthless" medic who, if he didn't have what it took to be a soldier on the battlefield, should just go kill himself. This was the first unflattering, and unsubstantiated, mention I'd heard of Naughton, a career soldier who would go on to become the First Sergeant of Charlie Company by the time the platoon returned to Iraq two years later.

About an hour into our conversation, Krebbs surprised me by suddenly talking about his own suicide attempt, just five months earlier. "You kind of feel worthless when you get back here," he explained, somberly looking down at the table. "I was a medic over there. I had an important job. And then when I got here, life just seemed pointless, and it seemed like I was just a burden to anybody that I was important to, so I just said, 'feth it.'" He swallowed a bottle of Seroquel. His wife's efforts to get him quickly to the hospital saved his life.

Is he still suicidal? "Oh, I think about it sometimes, but I don't think I'll try it again. In fact, I know I won't, because after I did it, I realized I had a son, a daughter, a wife … a family, and I know what it did to Razani's family."

I'd been told Jim Naughton was retired from the Army, but still living in Colorado Springs -- near Fort Carson, where the 506th Infantry was based upon their return from Iraq. The comments he'd allegedly made to Razani were disturbing; I wanted to find out if they were true. Also, as the highest enlisted officer in Charlie Company, I thought he might know the whereabouts of some of the soldiers of his Third Platoon. So I decided, in the parlance of journalists, to "doorstep" him.

It was getting dark as I walked up the long hill of his driveway in a section of the city nestled into the side of the Rocky Mountain foothills. A tall, burly man with a military haircut came to the door, sweeping back his curious sons. "Not gonna talk to you," he said bluntly, once I explained the reason for intruding on his life. It turned out he was still in the Army; he'd come close to retiring but was persuaded to stay on. I was told I needed to go through the Army's proper public affairs channels. But even then, he wouldn't say anything.

"A lot of fine soldiers are on that list," he said of the dozen or so members of the platoon, whose names I'd unearthed by then. "Two of them gave their lives for this country, but you're probably only interested in those who I don't have anything good to say about," referring primarily to Eastridge. Efforts to persuade him otherwise were in vain. When his wife arrived home and sized up the situation, she rolled her eyes, confirmed the Naughton family en masse did not welcome reporters, and made it clear it was time for me to walk back down the driveway.

"Nice hat," a deep voice said on the other end of the cell phone as I stood in a Plantation, Fla., parking lot looking around for Marcus Mifflin. He seemed to like having the upper hand in what he was turning into a quasi-clandestine rendezvous. He could see me from his perch somewhere near the Publix supermarket; he could tell me what I was wearing; he was sizing me up … but he was still invisible to me.

For the first 30 or 40 minutes after Marcus finally emerged from behind a forest of SUVs and palm trees, he remained in effect, invisible. I could clearly see him as we ambled over to a Japanese restaurant in the shopping plaza. He was tall, sturdily built, maybe 6 feet 5 inches, 250 pounds, wearing a black T-shirt and blue denim shorts. But he wasn't giving up much else. His answers to my questions were vague and accompanied with a little sneer that conveyed the obvious: He knew he wasn't being the least bit forthcoming and was testing to see if I would let him get away with it.
Marcus Mifflin

Marcus Mifflin

"Before the Army, I was down here and doing whatever I was doing and all that good stuff," he said casually. I was to discover over the next three-and-a-half hours, the phrase "all that good stuff" was the wallpaper he used to cover over anything he didn't want to tell me about.

"I have a habit of dealing with things with an air of indifference," he said, while poking with his chopsticks at the steak teriyaki in front of him. It was said with such a studied sense of casual boredom that it clearly seemed to be part of his fortification -- because, as I was to find out, much of the time he is anything but indifferent to his life, the way he's lived it and how he has reacted to things around him.

Echoing a phrase I would later hear from a handful of others in the platoon, Mifflin told me he joined the Army at age 19 to escape a gang-involved lifestyle in which "I'd either end up in jail or dead." He was looking forward to killing people, and from the way he tells it -- though others have questioned his accounts -- he had plenty of opportunities.

"For the most part, we did whatever we wanted when we were over there. There was this sense of freedom. There were no laws, there was no fuckin' society. There was no one you answered to when you were doing whatever you were doing," he said.

But after 11 months, in July 2005, when the platoon arrived in Fort Carson, suddenly, "you've got to deal with the laws of man again, and it's such bs. And you're just like, 'Why?'" It wasn't long after they returned that, he says, men in the platoon "were starting to notice that there's something wrong with them. Everyone starts to notice that they're not really all that happy and that they miss Iraq and all that good stuff. Pretty much everyone -- everyone I was hanging out with -- started to get stressed out, going downhill … slowly, very slowly. Getting fethed up was no longer a desire, but an actual need. Get high, get drunk, whatever it was -- self-medicate, I guess you could call it."

Mifflin said it was just a matter of luck that he didn't get caught using drugs. But when he started having violent flashbacks, he was shipped off to a private mental health facility, and eventually was diagnosed with PTSD and received a medical discharge from the Army.

Without receiving any counseling -- his choice -- he's bounced around the country in the three years since leaving the Army. When I saw him, he was living at his mother's house talking about using the new GI bill to take some college courses -- and trying to resist the temptation to get back into the gang life he'd left. But it's a challenge.

"Now sometimes I wake up thinking I want to get a gun and go around shooting people at random. I seriously considered doing it, but don't because I still have some hope that I can make my life great. But if I ever give up hope and decide to blow my brains out, I would take as many others with me as I could."

The first research trip that began in Florida with Mifflin ended at a Denny's Restaurant in Colorado Springs, waiting for Joe Baggett to show up for an agreed-upon 9 a.m. cup of coffee. An hour later, with no Joe, rather than being annoyed, I was beginning to understand the frustration of wives and girlfriends, whose men come back from war and don't seem able to function in "the real world." Over the summer, several wives, who now feel they are married to PTSD, told me they would have to keep their husband's calendars and drive them to all their appointments if they had any hope of getting the help they obviously needed.

Joe Baggett arrived sheepishly, saying he'd been up all night, fighting with his wife. He was still an enlisted soldier, having reached the rank of sergeant in the five years since leaving his dead-end job at Wal-Mart in Ramer, Tenn. "I always thought I would stay in the Army forever. I wanted to be a lifer, but now I can't do my job anymore."

After being home from the war for about a year, in the fall of 2006, the platoon returned for a second tour in Iraq. "It was a lot different than the first tour," he said, leaving the question of "How?" conspicuously unanswered. "It probably didn't help me for the better. I'd rather not talk about it. It's just not such good memories."
Joe Baggett

Joe Baggett

By the end of that tour his symptoms of PTSD were blooming ferociously: "High irritability, severe paranoia, severe anxiety, flashbacks, bad dreams, just feeling really gakky and weird." The havoc of living with his wartime experience grew to a worrisome level, both he and the Army agreed. If he couldn't be around weapons, couldn't deal with combat, he no longer met the Army's "retention standards" and had to go. So he'd been farmed out to the Warrior Transition Unit -- a facility for soldiers who are on their way out of the Army for a variety of medical reasons, where occasional visits to doctors and job-training workshops interrupt what can sometimes be months of idle time, waiting for the Army's paperwork to move.

Unlike Kenneth Eastridge, who had also been diagnosed with PTSD but never received any mental health counseling after returning from Iraq, Baggett both received and appreciated the help he was getting. He saw a therapist about twice a month -- "She hasn't been through combat, but still, she listens, and it helps establish trust with someone." And he was taking Seroquel, a mood stabilizer, and Celexa, an anti­depressant, which he thought helped to "balance things out."

But his relationship with his wife -- a woman he met and married in the year between deployments -- sounded quite out of balance. "I can't stand my wife and she can't stand me. I don't want to make a rash and permanent decision about my wife. Like they say about suicide, why make a permanent decision to a temporary problem?"

However, one temporary solution to this wife problem that sounded quite appealing to Baggett was riding the rails. Conjuring up an ideal post-Army railroad job was the only time I saw a spark of life and excitement come to his eyes. "Being a conductor for freight trains -- sounds pretty good. You check the cars, make sure everything is OK, and then you're gone."

The image of Joe Baggett, sitting by himself in the cab of a diesel locomotive in front of a mile of boxcars, gazing out across the vast high prairies of eastern Colorado, is one that I thought about often as I crossed those and other prairies during the summer. I tried to contact him a couple of times after our initial talk. I wanted to see if he was ready to tell me more about the platoon's second tour in Iraq. He never returned my calls. According to Army records, his medical discharge finally came through, six months after we spoke, in November 2009.

By late May, my platoon roster was still quite paltry. I'd talked with a few of Eastridge's friends who had sent me in the direction of a few others, but the big picture was still missing. I was heartened then to get an e-mail from Sgt. 1st Class William Sturgeon -- once the senior enlisted officer of the Third Platoon who was now stationed in Hawaii. His son from a previous marriage was graduating from high school a week later in Tracy, Calif. If I could get to California he would try to squeeze me around various family and graduation events.

We didn't have enough time, but time enough for me to get a fairly complete rundown of the entire platoon. (He was still in touch with about 10 of the guys, and had potential leads that might be useful in locating many others.) Along with a basket of individual anecdotes and stories about his platoon, Sturgeon, as their sergeant, had come to some conclusions about the men … and his role in their lives.
William Sturgeon

William Sturgeon

"These young guys," he said describing the bulk of his platoon who entered the Army directly out of high school, "they have no values coming in; their family structure is all jacked up from the time they were three years old. So you're trying to play mom and dad and everything else to these kids, and you don't know how they're going to turn out."

Sturgeon inherited the Third Platoon the day after it suffered its most devastating loss of the war -- Nov. 11, 2004. A car bomb detonated in the midst of a patrol, killing one of the favorite sergeants, Sean Huey, and wounding six others, including then-platoon Sgt. Tim Stricklin. Sturgeon was confronted by a group of young men he barely knew, whose morale was as low as their thirst for revenge was great.

In loco parentis was a challenging but not impossible role for Sturgeon to play while they were all bivouacked in one tight little compound between Ramadi and Fallujah. He talked with the men about their losses; he tried to buck them up; he tried to keep them sane and focused. But nine months later, when Sturgeon brought his men back home, keeping watch over the flock became nearly impossible, and he told me there was little he could do to keep them from going off the rails. "For a lot of them, this was the first time in their Army careers when they didn't have curfews, they didn't have to stay on the base, and they just didn't have enough self-control to handle so much freedom." Was it that, or was it, as Mifflin had told me, a question of "self-medicating" to avoid having to think about the things they saw and did in Iraq?

Personally, Will Sturgeon said, his readjustment to coming home wasn't that difficult. He was the first soldier I'd met who came home to the same woman he was with when he left for Iraq -- and that probably helped a lot, he thinks. He didn't need to drink to self-medicate. "I don't have any nightmares or signs of PTSD. I think I've handled it pretty good," he said, spitting out a string of tobacco juice from the dip he stuck in his lower lip as soon as we were out of the restaurant. "It's all how you balance it, I guess. It just never became an issue in our house."

Three days later I was at a Texas steakhouse in San Antonio with Kris Silva. He'd been out of the Army a little over a year. "If anyone tells you they don't have PTSD, they're lying," he told me emphatically.

A stocky Hispanic 26-year-old, Silva says his body and mind were so beat up by two tours in Iraq, "I feel like I'm at least 35." When he returned from the first tour in Iraq, he says, he lied on the post-deployment mental health evaluation. "They ask, 'Have you seen destruction? Seen any dead bodies?' Yes. 'Does it bother you?' No. 'Seen anyone die?' Yes. 'Does it bother you?' No. All you want to do is sign in and sign out. I wanted my break, my two-week vacation, so I lied to the doctors. Everybody does it."

Seeking help was not, Silva says, something that was really encouraged by the chain of command. Once again, Naughton's name floated over this part of the discussion like a dark cloud. He came from the old school where, as Silva said, "You were trained to be tough: Your arm's broken? Drink some water and drive on. He didn't like us going to see medical physicians. If you do, everybody thinks you're going to be labeled a pussy, or a nut job, or just weak."

But when Silva realized his drinking was getting out of hand, he summoned the courage to seek help at Evans Army Medical Center at Fort Carson. "I was feeling a numbness. I needed help to regain my emotions and learn how to talk normal to people again. But all they do in the Army is try to push medications on you. I declined all kinds of medication," he said, and like many of his fellow soldiers, including Eastridge, he went back for a second tour of duty in Iraq -- dealing with serious untreated PTSD issues.
Kris Silva

Kris Silva

Three years later, with Eastridge sitting in jail, Silva feels guilty that he and the other enlisted men did nothing to help Eastridge in Iraq when they saw him falling apart -- getting drunk, strung out on drugs, threatening officers, no longer being the fierce soldier he once was. "We let Kenny down. He should have been able to talk with us. I'm sure there was a lot we could have done."

But Silva was having his own problems. Dumped by his girlfriend, he quickly started up another relationship on MySpace. On a home leave in 2007 he met the woman and three days later, they were married. Matter-of-factly but with a bit of chagrin he said, "I had already planned my will; the only thing I was missing was a wife. So I got married. I had that overwhelming feeling I wasn't going to come back here, but it didn't bother me because I felt lifeless. I thought, 'gak, I'm going to die over there.' Deep down inside, I kind of wanted to. I didn't want to commit suicide, I just felt like I was going to die, so I wanted to die. You think about it so much every time you go outside the wire that you just want it to happen -- get that lump in your throat over with."

He didn't die. Instead, in the summer of his second tour he was shipped back to Fort Carson after an accident that involved wrapping his leg around the wheel of a moving Humvee. The medical treatment he received at Evans was good -- much better than the mental health care he'd earlier sought. Less than a year later, he was honorably discharged and went to the Veterans Administration in San Antonio soon after. "When they first screened me, they said I didn't have PTSD. At that point I knew I did." Even without a formal diagnosis, six months later he was welcomed into a V.A.-run group for soldiers with PTSD and soon was seeing a therapist for weekly counseling.

Is it helpful, I ask? Yes, he says. He's gotten rid of a lot of anxiety as well as his MySpace bride and is in a new relationship. He says he's taking it a lot slower this time around.

Four hundred miles later, along Interstate 10 in Louisiana, I received the following text: "I got no problem talking to you, I just don't think I can give you what you want." It was from Josh Butler, one of three members of the platoon who were kicked out of the Army after failing a drug test.
Josh Butler

Josh Butler

His motel room was the one behind the beat-up welder's truck parked in the gravel lot of the Cardinal Motel on the outskirts of Opelousas, La. The truck belonged to one of his welding buddies; his car parked next to the truck -- a 1991 Lincoln Town Car with a lived-in look to it -- had a flat tire. Working as a welder's assistant on a natural gas pipeline crew, Butler was trying to piece together a chaotic life, which was quickly becoming a nomadic life, as he moved from cheap motels to trailer parks following the progress of the pipeline.

What he thought I wanted to hear about was what another reporter had repeatedly asked him about a few months earlier. "There's gak I just can't talk about. A war crime is a war crime. That gak don't ever go away," he said as we drove into Opelousas.
Josh Butler's tattoo

Butler's tribute tattoo to Sgt. Huey

If war crimes were off the table, just about everything else -- including plates of excellent shrimp étouffée ---was on the table for Josh Butler at the Crawfish Corner. With alarming candor, he covered everything from his dishonorable discharge, which made him angry mostly because several others in Charlie Company "pissed hot" for cocaine and were politely ushered out of the Army with general discharges; to slapping around his estranged wife ("Yeah, maybe that's one thing I wasn't doing before I went into the Army, but I ain't going to say the Army taught me to abuse women."); to how he thinks a lot of PTSD claims were faked -- including his. ("I told the [Army] shrink being in elevators made me nervous," he said with a smirk. "And the dude just handed me a bunch of pills, which is all I was trying to get in the first place. It was just an excuse to get something to get fethed up on.")

In his thick Alabama drawl, Butler told me he has no feelings and sheds no tears over what he saw and did in Iraq. He says he's just numb to all of that, and hasn't let it affect him. But when he tells the story of Sgt. Huey's death with more vivid detail and description than I've heard before, and recounts trying to breathe life into the mouth of the leader of his squad as he was being rushed to the hospital tent, it is hard to imagine those thoughts are ever too far away.

Indeed, every time he glances at his left forearm there is a long tattoo that's a painful reminder: An M-4 with boots and helmet in the traditional stance of a fallen soldier, topped with large bold letters, "UH-1H." That's the designation for the Army's workhorse helicopter -- the Huey, which was Sgt. Huey's trademark signature.

It seemed nearly all of the soldiers I was meeting either had UH-1H tattooed on some part of their body or would show up wearing a metal wrist band with Sean Huey's name and death date on it. The more men I talked with them, the more obvious it became that "Sergeanthuey," as his fellow soldiers seemed to call him -- and his death -- cast an unmistakably large shadow over the story of the Third Platoon.
Colleen Huey

Colleen Huey Garra

To learn more about him, I found myself in a quiet, middle-class neighborhood of Cabot, Ark., walking up to the front door of the home of Colleen Huey Garra, Sean's older sister. Someone in the platoon had told me upon meeting Colleen at a memorial service for her brother back in Fort Carson, "She's just like Sean, except she's a girl."

Colleen was so close to her brother that before he was killed, she'd decided to name her daughter after him -- pronouncing the name "Shawnee" but spelling it Seane. Naming her Joe Paterno, after the Penn State football coach, would have pleased Huey as much or even more, as Penn State football was his primary obsession and defining characteristic -- the result of growing up in Fredericktown, Penn., well within the geographic footprint of fanatic Penn State enthusiasm. And so when his own son was born, 11 months before he was killed, Sean persuaded his North Carolina-born wife they should name him Joe.

Becoming a father tempered Sean, his sister told me, sitting at her kitchen table surrounded by scrapbooks and picture albums of her brother's life. He was pretty rough-edged prior to that; at one point he was ordered to take an anger management class at Fort Bragg after picking up a soldier by the throat when he was late. Huey, she says, became more compassionate, more humane to the men under his command. As they were going into Iraq, he wrote her that he would rather die than lose one of his men.

The war affected him in other ways. In a letter to his brother and hunting companion, Mike, he said he could never put the cross-hairs on a deer again and pull the trigger. He'd had to kill people -- because he had no choice -- but now wanted no part of taking life when his life, or the lives of his men, weren't on the line.

Colleen had many questions on what I'd found out about the day Sean was killed. Did he ever regain consciousness after the blast? Did he know he was dying? Did he have his last rites? They were questions she wasn't ready to ask when she attended the memorial service for him at Fort Carson. She was ready now, and welcomed getting information from a third party, as she knew it would still be too hard to ask the soldiers who were there when Sean died -- particularly Doc Krebbs, who'd tried to save his life, and Tim Stricklin, one of Sean's closest friends, who was injured at the same time.
Mountains

Ouachita Mountains

The nine-hour drive across half of Arkansas and most of Oklahoma to the home of Tim and Terra Stricklin gave me a lot of time to think about the way families who lose their sons, brothers, and husbands in war struggle with such conflicting emotions for so long after that initial shock. It comes as a knock on the door for the next of kin, or usually a phone call for all the others, and is an explosion of grief that they always know to expect from the day their soldier enlists. For weeks, months and years the reverberations of that explosion continue to rock them, like aftershocks, as they try so hard to come to terms with the grief and the conflict in their minds and hearts. There is a sense of pride that these men died for their country, died doing something they believed in; yet the loss and the tragedy of a truncated life, the knowledge these men will never see their children grow up, cannot be extinguished by that pride. As the sun set over the Ouachita Mountains in eastern Oklahoma, I continued to think of Colleen's comments about how, nearly five years after Sean's death and a lot of very useful therapy, she's finally able to put her brother's death in a place in her life where she can move forward: "He's no longer the first thing I think about in the morning; nor the last thing I think about at night … but I do think about him every day. Maybe a hundred times."

The next night in Lawton, Okla., it took Tim Stricklin four hours, without any breaks, to walk me through his history with the Third Platoon and critique each of the soldiers who served under him. In 2004, after 10 years in the Army, he was finally given a platoon to run, and he quickly established a family-like closeness to these soldiers. In doing so, his wife, Terra, came to know them as well, and while we were talking, she willingly inserted her own observations as the two of them sat in overstuffed loungers in their family room. She also kept her 271 Facebook friends informed with live updates of how the interview was progressing.

Stricklin, a tall, thin man with penetrating eyes, achieved the crushing distinction of being the only member of the platoon to go on both tours to Iraq -- and be seriously injured each time. The first was standing next to Sgt. Huey when the car bomb exploded. Two years later, an IED blew up under his Humvee, breaking his back, his jaw and messing up his left leg. Although his injuries were worse the second time, he felt much worse about the first incident. "The second time, I was the only one injured. The first time, along with Sean, six of us got hurt. The platoon sergeant has to keep his people safe and I didn't do that."
Tim Stricklin

Tim Stricklin

Stricklin tells me when he got back, once he was medically discharged from the Army, he came down with a serious drinking problem. There were images and incidents he couldn't shake -- seeing the old man who'd just had his jaw shot off, looking at him bewildered; the moment just before the car bomb exploded. "I talk to Sean every day," he said, wincing back tears that were building on the rims of his eyes.

Sure, he acknowledges, no soldier goes to Iraq and isn't affected by the experience. He certainly was. But he's seen too many, particularly in his platoon, who come back, get in trouble, and then blame it on PTSD. Maybe some of his soldiers had a hard time dealing with things they did or saw in Iraq, "but that doesn't give them a free license to do the stuff they were doing when they got back."

Going through the platoon roster, one by one, there was a litany of misdeeds, mistakes, poor choices and generally out of control behavior among his men after they arrived at Fort Carson. Along with a lot of out-of-control drinking, one got into meth; another had a road rage incident where he pulled his weapon on another motorist; three were kicked out for cocaine use; Eastridge and two others in the company -- Louis Bressler and Bruce Bastien -- got into all kinds of trouble that ended with the shooting death of another soldier, Kevin Shields, a young man who, years before, had come into Stricklin's Illinois recruiting station shortly after 9/11.

But by no means were they all misfits and miscreants. Part of Stricklin's case for why soldiers should not blame the war for their later bad behavior is that, while still troubled by the experience, still dealing with dark memories, there were more soldiers who were upstanding fighting men in Iraq, and they came home and did not get into any significant trouble.

The Stricklins and the Naughtons, even though they live far apart, are close friends. Both wives take an active and very supportive role in their husbands' work, and supported each other -- along with many other spouses -- when their men were deployed. Explaining the difficulties I was having getting Jim Naughton to agree to talk with me, Stricklin said he would "put in a good word" after his wife had given me her seal of approval on Facebook. ("This guy rocks at interviewing!") But, Stricklin added, he'd be surprised if Naughton agreed to talk -- "He's just not that kind of guy."

Like so many of my dozen or so research trips, the one that included Garra and Stricklin ended in Colorado -- and in another prison.

I'd heard from other soldiers that Jeremy Eggert "got a DUI and had some problems with his wife," but it wasn't until I idly checked the Colorado Department of Correction's inmate locator that I found Eggert's wide-eyed mug shot pasted next to information saying he was three years into a six-year sentence.

He claimed I was the only visitor he'd had while in prison, and was both eager for news from his fellow soldiers, and just as eager to tell me his story -- even though little of it had the heroism that he aspired to when he followed his grandfather's footsteps into the Army.
Jeremy Eggert

Jeremy Eggert

Just before shipping out to Iraq in 2004, he’d married a girl he’d been dating for a year, because, he told me, “I wanted to get married before I died.” He thought she’d moved beyond her drug addiction, but soon wondered if his paycheck wasn’t going into her veins in the form of heroin. Ignoring the advice of his sergeants – and even his company commander - to get a divorce, he stuck with her only to find upon returning to Fort Carson there was no one there to greet him. “I came back and reality beat the gak out of me. Everyone was hugging their wives, families, sisters.” His wife was in a hospital still fighting her addiction. .

Alcohol quickly became his escape. "I came back and I started drinking and drinking and drinking. The moment we got off work I was high-tailing it to the PX to buy beer." Who was he drinking with? "Anyone, no one, it didn't matter," he said, explaining that he thought he was drinking just to get drunk, and only later realized it was because he couldn't get images of the war out of his mind.

Eventually -- he doesn't remember when -- he decided he needed to get help and, while quite drunk, headed off on foot to the drug and alcohol unit at Fort Carson's Evans Medical Center. "I called my wife and told her I was walking there, and she called my chain of command and they advised that I didn't go."

Who did she call, I asked?

"First sergeant," he replied after a long pause.

Was that Jim Naughton?

He replied with a nod.

The message he said he received, secondhand from his wife, was that if he had aspirations -- as he did -- to join the Rangers or try for Special Forces, having on his record a trip to the mental health unit for a drinking problem would torpedo any chances of moving into the ranks that were the envy of just about every infantryman I spoke with.

Eggert says he turned around and went back to his barracks to sleep it off.

Of his chain of command, Eggert says, "They were my mentors and I didn't want to disappoint them. But after that, I felt I couldn't get help. I needed to figure out a way to do this on my own."

So he kept drinking and he got in fights. One night, after a fight with his uncle, and with well more than twice the legal limit of alcohol in his bloodstream, he smashed into the back of a pickup truck on I-25 just north of Colorado Springs. The pickup veered off the right side of the highway and rolled over three times, leaving one of the three occupants with a broken back. Eggert's Jeep Liberty veered off to the other side, but didn't roll. Instead of checking on the occupants of the other vehicle, he took off -- "fleeing the scene like a criminal," he told me, which is exactly what he became when the police found him 17 miles down the highway and arrested him.

He was initially sentenced to six years in a work-release program, where he could stay in the Army, but live in a half-way house, and agreed not to drive. Within six months, he'd violated the rules five times, including on at least one occasion driving. At a resentencing hearing, the judge had little patience with Eggerts' attempted explanations and turned the halfway house time into prison time. That month he was discharged from the Army.

When I saw him in mid-July 2009, he thought there might be a parole hearing coming up soon. If he was released, he said, he was toying with trying to get back into the Army. "I've been told they take people with certain kinds of felonies on their records. If this wouldn't have happened, I would have been career. I was good at my job and I loved it. But things happen," he said looking off in the distance, through a window to the prison yard where his fellow inmates were wandering around aimlessly in their prison-issue green jumpsuits.

When his platoon leader -- the only one who actually made it to Special Forces -- heard that Eggert hoped to re-enlist, he acknowledged he was, in fact, a good soldier, but added, "They'll never let him back in, unless World War III starts."

A month later, I was back in Colorado, at what had become my favorite coffee shop, The Coffee Exchange on Tejon Street in Colorado Springs. Run by Tom and Margaret Logan, immigrants from England and Northern Ireland, it was a perfect place to meet and talk with people for hours. Their son had served in the British Army in Iraq and was having a hard time back home, so they took a vicarious and quite sympathetic interest in the discussions I was having with other parents' sons.

For three months I'd been corresponding by e-mail with one of the more curious members of the platoon, Nathan Fealko, who at the time was living in Taiwan. "He was really smart," Tim Stricklin had told me. "But he never should have been in the infantry -- just not his kind of deal." But that's exactly why he joined up. After being home schooled and getting a degree from a small upstate New York Christian liberal arts college, the self-described "class-A nerd and over-the-top geek" wanted to challenge himself physically and mentally. Basic training almost killed him; the drinking and fraternizing between officers and enlisted men when he was stationed in Korea appalled him; and his first tour in Iraq, he said, was hellish. But he survived.
Nathan Fealko

Nathan Fealko

In one of his lengthy e-mails, he wrote about how anger was an essential ingredient for survival in Iraq. "It helps you get your job done as a soldier," he explained when we met. "If you're on patrol and a car cuts in front of you, if you're too chilled out about it, that car will kill you. You have to be angry at the car, at the driver, and you draw on that anger, and that's what fuels you to act -- to shoot the car to stop it from possibly killing you."

The problem, he explained, is when you come home after a year of living with that kind of adrenalin-pumped up anger. "It takes time to bleed that fuel out of your system." It took him months to calm down.

But now, not much more than a year out of the Army, there were few outward signs he was ever in uniform. After he was done with his Army "adventure," he told his wife, Amy, it was her turn to pick one. She chose Taiwan. They moved there and both quickly got jobs teaching English to Taiwanese kindergarteners. He's not sure how much longer that adventure will last, thinking it soon might be time to come back home. And, with that in mind, rather than drinking up his accumulated Army pay at the bars on Tejon Street, Fealko used his combat pay for a down payment on a small house in Colorado Springs -- a nice community to raise a family, he thinks.

"How's that lad doing," Margeret asked after Nathan left. "Quite well," I was happy to report … finally.

Three days and three stops later, I was at the Alamo Bar and Grill in suburban Newbury Park, Calif., with two guys -- Evan Harmon and J. R. Marcelo -- who seemed to be firmly planted in the middle of the bell curve of returned soldiers. In their mid-20s, both are hyphenated-Americans -- Harmon is part Mexican; Marcelo, half Filipino. They joined up because there was nothing better to do. They had some fun; they had some bad times; they tried to laugh through most of it. They served long enough to do two tours in Iraq (the second, they agree, was harder than the first). They came home, completely done with the Army, proud of the service they gave their country, yet ready to get on with their lives. They have some PTSD issues (and agree with Kris Silva that everyone who has been in Iraq does), but they feel they can deal with them without going to any doctors or taking medication. They were both honorably discharged on the same day in April 2008, expecting that finding jobs wouldn't be difficult for two reasonably bright and articulate veterans. They were wrong.
Evan Harmon and J. R. Marcelo

J.R. Marcelo and Evan Harmon

Sixteen months later, Marcelo still hasn't found anything. After five months, Harmon got a boring job driving a forklift in a warehouse -- and that happened only after he swallowed enough pride to ask a family member to talk to a friend.

"You think you'll get a job because you're a veteran," Harmon said. "But the job you had in the military doesn't transfer to civilian life. What kind of job here has you getting blown up and shot at all day?"

Both men had heard the Los Angeles Police Department was hiring soldiers. Neither one particularly wanted to continue to put his life on the line every day, but perhaps patrolling the streets of L.A. came closest to what they knew how to deal with in Iraq. Both men put in their paperwork and waited.

They waited for seven months before being told, "You don't meet our requirements." Marcelo wondered, as tested infantrymen, what sort of requirements they lacked, and he was plenty annoyed they'd wasted so much time waiting for an answer that could have come back within weeks. After that, it only got worse. "Security guards, fast food, you name it, they wouldn't hire me," Harmon says. "People don't care. It's not about what you achieved in the military."

To avoid getting angry about the job market, Harmon says he tried to look at things from the employer's point of view -- something that's not so easy. "Do I take a 19-year-old kid with some experience, or a veteran with no experience? I'll go with the kid. It's like, 'Ok, this guy can enclose the enemy and take him out with his squad, but can he cook a fething hamburger?'"

Marcelo finally just gave up looking and was planning in the fall to go back to college on the GI bill. He's going to train to become an X-ray technician. Why? "It's an easy job. I just take pictures of your knee. I mean, there's more to it than that, but not much."

Marcelo and Harmon were buddies in Iraq. They became family members not long after they returned from the first tour, when Marcelo introduced his sister, Missy, to Evan Harmon. By the time the Third Platoon was ready to deploy again, Missy Harmon was saying goodbye to both her brother and her husband.

The longest trip of my reporting odyssey -- which covered more than 12,000 miles and included an evening at a brew pub north of Fairbanks, Alaska, with a soldier who later told me he didn't feel "sitting in front of the world and telling my story is the right thing for me to do at this point" -- ended back in Colorado in Jeremy Eggert's prison.

Unlike the Alaska soldier, Jeremy was happy to tell his story again -- this time to David Michaud, the chairman of the Colorado Parole Board. When I'd been notified of Eggert's hearing before the parole board, I imagined a courtroom-like setting, quite possibly with the victims present, maybe some family members to serve as character references, testifying in front of the seven-member parole board. I quickly found out it was to be a much more low-key affair, which began with Jeremy's case manager offering up slices of homemade rhubarb nut bread to all who came to watch. That turned out to be just me.

And David Michaud was the only member of the Colorado Parole Board present. He was an avuncular man in his 60s, with gray hair, glasses and a passel of ID tags hanging from a U.S. Marine Corp lanyard around his neck. Colorado's prisons are so crowded and the backlog of cases to be heard is so great that it would be impossible for the entire board to hear every case. So they spread themselves around the state to hear what the parole candidates have to say for themselves.

Jeremy entered the sparsely furnished multi-purpose room in the administration building of the prison and took a seat on one side of a folding table. The parole board sat on the other side. A 1970s-era audiotape cassette recorder attached to a Radio Shack mic stood ready to record the official proceedings.

Before clicking on the machine, the two men -- one in a business suit, the other a green prison jumpsuit -- bonded a bit over their shared military experience. It is probably the only thing they had in common.

Michaud formally began the hearing by getting Jeremy to state the facts of his case. One has to assume those facts -- as reported by the police and appearing in court records -- were contained in the thick folder that also sat on the desk. Had Michaud consulted them, he would have found a discrepancy in the answer to his first question about the number of people injured in the crash. Eggert told him two; the police reports stated three.

"How badly were they injured," Michaud asked.

"Not too bad," Jeremy replied, apparently not wishing to go into details of the broken back sustained by the 81-year-old man in the pickup truck he rammed at high speed. One court record stated the crash victim would never be able to walk again.

"What was the extent of their injuries," Michaud pressed.

"Oh, just whiplash, and that sort of thing."

"Nothing more serious?" Michaud asked.

"Not that I'm aware of," Eggert said.

Michaud moved on to Eggert's plans should he be granted parole. Eggert explained he had a carpentry job lined up in Moline, Ill., and would be living with his Aunt Dixie. It was a statement perhaps harder to check than the extent of the injuries he caused, but not that hard. Aunt Dixie turns out to be his estranged wife's aunt, and the carpentry job was far from certain. It was one of a number of possible jobs the aunt was exploring for her nephew-in-law.

Then came the quiz: "What's the one key word to your success?" Michaud asked.

Jeremy looked puzzled, thought for a moment and said, "Perseverance!"

Michaud responded, "It begins with an S."

There was another slight delay until Jeremy figured it out: "Sobriety!"

Michaud looked pleased and launched into his homily on success. Jeremy sat and listened attentively, even while being harassed by a pesky fly which kept landing on his head. There are three key factors that can be the recipe for Jeremy's success, Michaud explained: Being sober, having a job and having the support of family members. "It looks like you have all three, but if you can't keep sober, it just caves in on you."

Jeremy nodded in thanks for the advice, and promised he'd stay sober.

Fifteen minutes after it began, they all stood up and the parole hearing was over.

Weeks later, the entire board met to discuss Eggert's case. He was granted parole and by Christmas Jeremy Eggert was with his daughter and his wife's aunt's family in Moline, Ill., looking for a job.

As summer turned into fall, I realized I'd been ignoring a couple of soldiers from the platoon who, because of injuries, hadn't made it through more than just a few months of the first deployment to Iraq. How were they doing? What did they think of the medical care they received?
Marco Garibay

Marco Garibay

Marco Garibay appears to be the only member of the platoon who came from and returned to a gritty, inner-city neighborhood. Camden, N.J., across the Delaware River from Philadelphia, has been a depressed community nearly all of Garibay's 27 years. He lives with his grandparents and brother in a small house surrounded by chain-link fencing. It is just two streets removed from Federal Street, where music thumps loudly from passing cars and people hang out on sidewalks next to neon-lit establishments selling fried food and payday loans.

Garibay was the Third Platoon's first casualty. In October 2004, a month before Sgt. Huey was killed, he was out on patrol and heard a gunshot that sounded close. "I've heard about people getting shot and not knowing, so I decided to look down and saw blood all over my chest," he told me. A bullet had ricocheted off the Humvee and pierced his neck. A few inches in either direction and the shot would have been fatal. The injury was serious enough to evacuate Garibay to Walter Reed Army Medical Center where he spent the next several months regaining his voice ("So I didn't sound so much like Darth Vader") and having the numbness in his neck gradually diminish.

Instead of sending him back to Iraq, which he wanted, he was put into the Rear Detachment in Fort Carson, where he felt worthless and bored. He met a woman, got married, got divorced and eventually came home to Camden, where, for a while, the only job he could get was in his father's auto repair shop. He eventually found a better paying job 30 minutes outside of Camden -- but it's boring and not likely to lead anywhere. "I just sit there and twiddle my thumbs a lot of the time."

What would he like to do? Go back into the Army again, but this time not as an infantryman but a mechanic, repairing Humvees and the like. Growing up around car repair shops, he's been tinkering with engines for years but has little resume experience to show for it. If he could get three years in the Army, he figures a better-paying job at a car dealership might be available when he gets out. And if all his dreams were to come true, shortly after that, he could open his own shop.

But before any of that happens, he told me, he wanted to be checked out at the V.A. for PTSD. Things happened, even in just the two months he was in combat, that he can't shake. As he sat in his grandparents' sparsely furnished living room, he quickly returned in his mind to a time when he was walking through the aftermath of a suicide bombing. He came across a vest on the ground. He was going to walk by it until saw something inside: The remains of a U.S. soldier. "I think there's probably more but my memory isn't that good anymore." And, he feels numb emotionally. "I don't get excited about anything anymore. Before, if I knew you were coming, I'd be all nervous. Now, I don't feel anything -- not excited, not nervous. I just feel deadened."

When I saw him in September he'd made a preliminary visit to the V.A., which was looking for his paperwork. Five months later, he said, he'd filled out a questionnaire and gone to some meetings, but was too busy to attend most of them.

Chris Nieves

Chris Nieves

Another soldier who'd been injured and felt abandoned by his platoon afterward was Chris Nieves, who I found one evening recovering from Lasik eye surgery in his small home in Lake Jackson, Texas.

He was one of those seriously enough wounded in the car bombing that killed Sgt. Huey that he had to be evacuated to the U.S. Five surgeries later, his left arm is much better, but he says he'll never be able to carry anything heavier than a gallon of milk.

He impatiently waited eight months before the Third Platoon came home and he could rejoin his buddies. But then it was hard. Not only didn't he have the shared experiences of the remainder of the tour, he was looked upon as a "wounded warrior."

"Before, I was climbing up the ladder, was recognized for having leadership qualities. I was a go-to guy. Now I wasn't even near the ladder. They went to someone else, even if what had to be done was clearly something I could do."

When he was first arrived at Walter Reed, no one bothered to give him any psychological screening, even though he knew something was wrong with him psychologically. Later, going through the list of PTSD symptoms, he realized he had a full house. The psychiatrist at Walter Reed gave him Ambien, which helped with his sleeping problems, but little else. Once transferred to Fort Carson, he was put in a therapy group that annoyed him more than it helped him. They let him try one-on-one therapy, but that was even worse. The over-worked psychologist could never even remember who he was or what his story was from day to day. "How many times do I have to tell you my story," he asked? "I just told it to you on Monday, and here I am again on Wednesday? Did you lose your notes again?"

A year and a half after being injured, Nieves was given a medical discharge and moved to Texas. Now working at a chemical plant, he's taking college classes with the hope of becoming a physician's assistant -- a profession he grew to know and admire while the Army was repairing his arm.

The afternoon before I saw Nieves, I'd shared a Chester's Hamburger lunch in San Antonio with Col. David Clark (Ret.), who commanded the 1-506th for more than two years. Even now out of uniform, Clark was unmistakably Army -- in his demeanor, in his lean physique, and in his enthusiasm for the men under his command. One of them, of course, was Jim Naughton, who had spent the summer not responding to further efforts to let me talk with him.

Clark understood Naughton's skepticism and reluctance. Other journalists -- he mentioned Bartle Bull -- had written pieces about his men that were unflattering, even embarrassing to them and their families, articles Clark said he tried to get stopped.

"But Jim owes it to his men to talk with you, to give you the other side." Coming from a friend and former commander, that argument might carry a lot more weight than my efforts to get him to respond to the allegations others had made about him.

As we parted, Clark promised he would convey that message to First Sergeant Naughton.

A week later I was back in Colorado Springs. At 6:15 in the morning, the following e-mail pinged into my computer:

Mr. Buchanan, After speaking with a few friends and professionals, I feel we may have a need to sit and talk. VR, James J. Naughton

Thank you, Col. Clark.

The next night -- six months and 46 interviews after I'd first walked up Jim Naughton's driveway -- I was there again, this time with my fellow producer and director, Dan Edge. We had already begun filming but cleared the evening to spend as much time with Naughton as he wanted to spend with us.

It was an awkward greeting at the door, almost as if he was still under the command of Col. Clark and had been ordered to talk to the press. His wife, Terri Ann, re-introduced herself, their two sons were again ushered out of sight, and we sat down in the family room -- the Naughtons together on a couch; the reporters facing them.

Over the next three hours, Jim Naughton not only refuted every nasty allegation that I'd heard about him over the last half a year, but was transformed in my mind from being a two dimensional "crusty old first sergeant," which his wife said, jokingly, is how he came out of his mother's womb, to a three-dimensional soldier who had also been changed in some ways by what happened to him and the men he led in Iraq.

He flatly denied ever saying anything to Razani, the medic who committed suicide, about being a worthless soldier, and attributed his death to a "personal issue that he had with himself that he just could not handle."

He had no recollection of ever getting a call from Jeremy Eggert's wife or telling her Eggert would ruin his career if he sought help for his drinking problem.

And even though Kris Silva and others characterized their First Sergeant as one who had no patience for soldiers who sought mental health care, Naughton told us, "The stigma from some leadership is that you just shut your mouth and keep on going. But that is wrong and we preach that it's wrong. A lot of soldiers don't believe that if they say they need help, they will get it. I wish that a lot of soldiers would kind of get in touch with their inner self and just say, 'I do need help.'"

Jim Naughton talking about getting in touch with your inner self?

He hadn't gone completely soft, however, and quickly admitted that while in Iraq "being hard, being mean, being ugly and being the bad guy" was his job. He said he was raised in the Army by "hard seasoned veteran noncommissioned officers, and that's the only way that I know to be in the Army."

"I make them do things that they don't want to do. I make them do more. I make them do it faster. I make them do it longer. And that's the way it goes because the mission doesn't stop just because it's lunchtime. Those boys were successful because they were pushed to the limit."

But fighting a counterinsurgency war is different; it is more stressful. He felt the stress when he was there, and when he came home, his wife noticed a difference. Before, when his boys misbehaved, they would be told to hit the deck and start doing push-ups. "But there's none of that now," Terri Ann told us, appearing somewhat perplexed. Naughton looked down as she described what sounded like a "softer and gentler" First Sergeant Naughton.

Then he looked up. "I'm not easier," he said softly, "but I'm just smarter."

By the time filming began, we had found all but two members of the Third Platoon. They were scattered all over the country, from Miami to Fairbanks; Los Angeles to Massachusetts. They were white, black, Hispanic, Filipino; some were college educated, most were not, but have hopes to be. They joined the Army out of patriotism, boredom, economic necessity, sense of adventure, a desire to test their manhood. And while some were doing better than others, there was a pervasive realization that 11 months of war for some, 26 months for others, had left physical and emotional scars that would take years to heal. This was, without question, The Wounded Platoon.

Read more: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/woundedplatoon/journey/#ixzz1iNCSDdVy


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 06:23:19


Post by: youbedead


mattyrm wrote:
AustonT wrote:Sometimes the easy ones are more satisfying. Unfortunantly now I'm craving mussels...and living in Arizona. Stupid ocean producing delicious shellfish treats. Oh, well Tamale time.


Mussels are fething nectar like, I always get them at a restaurant in my home town thats open all night and full of drunks, but for some reason does awesome fresh mussels alongside their kebabs.

However, Tamales are truly wonderful as well, and I am off to California in a week to get some!

By some, I mean a great many.


I'm now wondering what mussel tamales would taste like


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 06:28:32


Post by: Doklunggraba


Least you guys cut your losses. All good, the middle east is full of suprises. Iran is next to come! or some other middle eastern country besides Afganistan...

I


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 06:30:46


Post by: Horst


feth em, let em all burn.



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 06:55:07


Post by: dogma


BrassScorpion wrote:I once heard an interview with a WWII veteran talking about how war robs you of everything connected with your humanity and clearly the people who like to start wars have no concept or care what it does to all the humans on both sides.


I'm sure that most of them have a concept of it, and that many of them care, its simply that they value other things more. And, really, I can't blame them. I would feel the loss of my computer more than the loss of a random human being in Detroit, Chicago, or anywhere else in the world.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 07:08:26


Post by: AustonT


youbedead wrote:
I'm now wondering what mussel tamales would taste like


I've always assumed there was a reason seafood isn't frequently used in tamales, it may not mix well with the mounds of pork fat you use in the base ingredients. The next time I make tamales though I'm going to stuff a couple dozen with curried chicken, I think it will be quite the fusion. If that works I'll probably do a keema mater tamale with mint chutney. I should probably start a food thread...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 07:16:35


Post by: dogma


The pork fat would probably overpower the mussels, yeah. Also, there may be an issue regarding cooking time, its easy to overcook mussels.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 19:23:49


Post by: Frazzled


No need to perpetuate long quotations, which is quite spammy. Thanks! ~Manchu

Dude you just won the Dakka record for longest quote. oh wait I just quoted you. Frazzled uber alles!



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/03 19:49:11


Post by: Ahtman


Do we have to post a counter story for each of those in which a soldier recounts a hilariously grisly moment that not only didn't make them cry but still makes them laugh? Or just one? If it is just one matty has it covered, but if we need more I know a few Infantry and special forces guys who aren't emotionally compromised and tell a good story. I remember there was a Colonel that got in trouble becuase his soldiers said they liked their jobs and that doesn't fit the narrative we have set up for ourselves that it is all grim and angsty and they should hate what they do.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/04 19:34:19


Post by: CuddlySquig


Blaming the US for sectarian violence? No, it's not the United State's fault. This is a continuation of a civil war that has lasted for over a thousand years and consumed unmeasurable amounts of human life and wasted countless generations. All for what? Over a disagreement about the Prophet Muhammad? This will bring more misery and shame than any foreign occupation. They cheer about the end of problems from outsiders, when the real problem lies within.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/04 19:48:30


Post by: Monster Rain


Ahtman wrote:Do we have to post a counter story for each of those in which a soldier recounts a hilariously grisly moment that not only didn't make them cry but still makes them laugh? Or just one? If it is just one matty has it covered, but if we need more I know a few Infantry and special forces guys who aren't emotionally compromised and tell a good story. I remember there was a Colonel that got in trouble becuase his soldiers said they liked their jobs and that doesn't fit the narrative we have set up for ourselves that it is all grim and angsty and they should hate what they do.


I know some good ones.

Practically all of my memories of being in the Marines are positive, and even the ones that aren't don't seem to fill me with the shame, regret and angst that some of these guys exhibit.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 09:36:50


Post by: Ouze


biccat wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:
biccat wrote:
threatened its neighbors, used chemical weapons on its own people, and fomented religious bigotry I'd actually be pretty happy with another country coming in and taking him out.


These have happened recently in the US, not to mention religious bigotry is an American staple...

One needs only to look to the Dakka forums to find evidence of the latter.

As to the former, I'm pretty sure we haven't "recently" used chemical weapons on Americans. Unless you're talking about chemtrails, of course.




Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 10:14:11


Post by: CptJake






Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 11:12:39


Post by: dogma


Fellatio joke?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 11:19:21


Post by: Albatross


'It'll make your eyes water.'


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 11:28:12


Post by: dogma


The stiff upper lip will do that.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 14:39:32


Post by: Albatross


Pah, she's American.

'No fellation without representation'.



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 17:04:06


Post by: King Pariah


Lol the Davis spray incident? What the picture doesn't show was students harassing the cops well before the pepper spray was used. True, pepper spray was probably not the best idea, BUT the students were not just peacefully protesting either.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 18:20:38


Post by: Monster Rain


In the Marines we would take off our gas masks inside the chamber, which was full of CS gas, and sing the Marines' Hymn. I remember at one point my buddy's eyes started bleeding for some reason during this event, and he was somewhat put out that we were all laughing too hard to help.

Pepper spray doesn't impress me.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 19:23:33


Post by: mattyrm


Monster Rain wrote:
Ahtman wrote:Do we have to post a counter story for each of those in which a soldier recounts a hilariously grisly moment that not only didn't make them cry but still makes them laugh? Or just one? If it is just one matty has it covered, but if we need more I know a few Infantry and special forces guys who aren't emotionally compromised and tell a good story. I remember there was a Colonel that got in trouble becuase his soldiers said they liked their jobs and that doesn't fit the narrative we have set up for ourselves that it is all grim and angsty and they should hate what they do.


I know some good ones.

Practically all of my memories of being in the Marines are positive, and even the ones that aren't don't seem to fill me with the shame, regret and angst that some of these guys exhibit.


I have been wanting to reply to Ahtman for two days but was sucking on the teat of the ban-hammer again.

Anyway.. my reply may warrant a thread of its own, but I was discussing this at length with the missus last week following a story about some feth head who got drunk and kicked the gak out of his wife. Here it goes.

Following numerous tales from the past couple of years of military men having "issues" when they leave, I have decided that PTSD is the new "race card" to be played by anyone who feths things up in their lives following their military careers.

In the same way that the victims of genuine racism have their own tales tarnished by the drug dealer with 500k of heroin in his trunk who bleats "it's cos I am black!" when they get hauled off to jail, I propose that the angsty, shame ridden types are in the minority. A huge minority, and a minority that feel safe to play the PTSD card because polticians universally praise the military, and it is expected from our society as a whole. I mean, no MP is willing to call some veteran a bum when he himself never went to Afghanistan, but lets have it said right here, they should be.

I note that nobody seems to just go and get help in the first place. Its always "Oh I beat my wife up, and it was PTSD so I finally got some help" or "Oh I got drunk and smashed my car into an ambulance and it was PTSD so I finally got some help" or "Oh I started dealing drugs and it was PTSD so I finally got some help". When I left the military I had the same interviews as that guy above who complained that he just "lied" to the doctors. How then is it not his fault? How is the post tour medical assitance unsatisfactory if they offer you help and sit you down to talk about it and you choose not to? If you have an issue, you raise it.

Sure, some people have genuine issues with PTSD, I don't deny that. But I believe that the majority of people in these sort of testimonials don't have a real problem, and simply fall back on the fact that they were in the military as an easy get out clause. Its typical of our blame culture.

Its never your fault.

The overwhelming majority of people that serve come home, have no issues, and crack on with their lives. Another issue is that civilians know nothing about military organisation, and I note that many of these people that claim to suffer are from major REMF units that are so far back from the enemy they have to send their fething laundry forwards!

We need people to be willing to stand up and say "Ok, you went to Afghanistan a few years ago, but big deal. You got drunk and beat your wife up because your a dick, not because you once saw a helicopter fire a hell-fire missile at a compound"

I know literally hundreds former combat soldiers and SF operators. Not radio operators or clerks or engineers or aircraft technicians or naval intelligence guys. I mean actual combat soldiers. And it is extremely rare that those people have genuine issues. You know exactly what you are going in for, you are an adult, what excuse do you have? I didnt join the army to go to a war?

I found a guys ballbag on the road in Kabul once, it was hilarious, when I pointed it out to the rest of my multiple, everyone else thought it was funny as well, and we all took pictures and pointed and laughed, and then we all went home happily ever after and nobody needed to see a shrink, and I don't believe that 95% of people that leave the armed forces have a genuine issue. As MR said, even if someone does have an issue, it doesn't give you an overwhelming urge to get mashed on PCP and beat the gak out of a police woman. Its a minor thing, go see your MO, chat about it. Talk to your mates. They are really good mates that you form a genuine bond with, and the idea that you "have" to be macho and not talk about it is nonsense as well.

If you have an issue, you can talk about it with your comrades, I have no doubt about it. The main reason we don't talk about it, is because we all really love seeing Taliban fighters get blown apart in an immensely gratifying hail of gunfire!


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 19:29:40


Post by: purplefood


I am scared by Matty... i suppose that's a good thing.
I do tentatively agree with him however.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 20:07:08


Post by: mattyrm


purplefood wrote: I do tentatively agree with him however.


That's because Matty talks the sense yes?

Seriously though, there are some bad eggs in the military, there are some people who display criminal tendencies from the get-go, particularly in the run of the mill regiments, If they then leave the military and go back to being a bad egg, why on earth should a few operations excuse their anti-social behaviour?


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:05:20


Post by: purplefood


mattyrm wrote:
purplefood wrote: I do tentatively agree with him however.


That's because Matty talks the sense yes?

Seriously though, there are some bad eggs in the military, there are some people who display criminal tendencies from the get-go, particularly in the run of the mill regiments, If they then leave the military and go back to being a bad egg, why on earth should a few operations excuse their anti-social behaviour?

It is...
Terrifying, gut wrenching sense...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:17:23


Post by: CT GAMER


King Pariah wrote:Lol the Davis spray incident? What the picture doesn't show was students harassing the cops well before the pepper spray was used. True, pepper spray was probably not the best idea, BUT the students were not just peacefully protesting either.


Yeah I heard this Granny was on a rampage, it took twenty cops with tazers and spray to take her down:



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:26:37


Post by: CptJake


So now we know cops don't discriminate by age. You face the riot lines along with the anarchists, you get equal opportunity treatment.

At least she had the gumption to face the riot lines.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:39:22


Post by: Samus_aran115


Monster Rain wrote:In the Marines we would take off our gas masks inside the chamber, which was full of CS gas, and sing the Marines' Hymn. I remember at one point my buddy's eyes started bleeding for some reason during this event, and he was somewhat put out that we were all laughing too hard to help.

Pepper spray doesn't impress me.


Monster Rain was a marine? I had no idea.

I've been sprayed with pepper spray. It's bad, and it makes you hurt, but not that bad. When my family bought pepper spray for all of us to carry around, my dad (a Marine, who also happened to be an MP) made us get sprayed in the face, so we knew what it felt like to have it used against you, and what to do when it's all over you and you're in pain. I was choking and stuff, but it could've been worse. I don't carry around pepper spray, but at least if I had it used against me for some reason, I'd know what to do.



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:41:33


Post by: Sgt_Scruffy


Samus_aran115 wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:In the Marines we would take off our gas masks inside the chamber, which was full of CS gas, and sing the Marines' Hymn. I remember at one point my buddy's eyes started bleeding for some reason during this event, and he was somewhat put out that we were all laughing too hard to help.

Pepper spray doesn't impress me.


Monster Rain was a marine? I had no idea.

Everyone in the military goes through pepper spray training. It's bad, and it makes you hurt, but not that bad. When my family bought pepper spray for all of us to carry around, my dad (a Marine, who also happened to be an MP) made us get sprayed in the face, so we knew what it felt like to have it used against you, and what to do when it's all over you and you're in pain. I was choking and stuff, but it could've been worse. I don't carry around pepper spray, but at least if I had it used against me for some reason, I'd know what to do.



What military are you in that everyone goes through pepper-spray training? CS gas chamber sure, but not pepper spray.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:42:29


Post by: AustonT


You can build up a resistance to CS from over exposure...then use it to feth with privates.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:43:04


Post by: biccat


AustonT wrote:You can build up a resistance to CS from over exposure...then use it to feth with privates.

I feel bad for your privates.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:44:24


Post by: Sgt_Scruffy


I prefer just puncturing all their "But my Drill Sergeant said," stories as a way to feth with privates.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:45:01


Post by: Samus_aran115


Sgt_Scruffy wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:In the Marines we would take off our gas masks inside the chamber, which was full of CS gas, and sing the Marines' Hymn. I remember at one point my buddy's eyes started bleeding for some reason during this event, and he was somewhat put out that we were all laughing too hard to help.

Pepper spray doesn't impress me.


Monster Rain was a marine? I had no idea.

I've gotten sprayed with pepper spray. It's bad, and it makes you hurt, but not that bad. When my family bought pepper spray for all of us to carry around, my dad (a Marine, who also happened to be an MP) made us get sprayed in the face, so we knew what it felt like to have it used against you, and what to do when it's all over you and you're in pain. I was choking and stuff, but it could've been worse. I don't carry around pepper spray, but at least if I had it used against me for some reason, I'd know what to do.



What military are you in that everyone goes through pepper-spray training? CS gas chamber sure, but not pepper spray.


Never mind. That thing. Forget that part of the quote. In fact, it's not even there!


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:55:20


Post by: Monster Rain


Samus_aran115 wrote:Monster Rain was a marine? I had no idea.


Was? Semper Fi, mack!

But yeah, I left active duty (Honorably, mind you) in 2004 so I could be around my kids while they grew up. The idea of being away from them for a year at a time during their formative years didn't work for me.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 22:58:10


Post by: CT GAMER


Samus_aran115 wrote:

I've been sprayed with pepper spray. It's bad, and it makes you hurt, but not that bad.



People (some of them public officials) also claimed that waterboarding was simply "mildly uncomfortable" and thus no big deal...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/05 23:00:08


Post by: AustonT


biccat wrote:
AustonT wrote:You can build up a resistance to CS from over exposure...then use it to feth with privates.

I feel bad for your privates.

You probably should, both the anatomical ones and the grown men and women who frequently act like God did not gift them a brain, even though I know better.
Have forgotten to wash hands before urination, and screamed without cessation until all of the air was expended form my lungs.

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:I prefer just puncturing all their "But my Drill Sergeant said," stories as a way to feth with privates.


While inflicting pain and hardship is probably my least favorite part of being an NCO, but necessary. Seeing mucus pouring from the eyes, nose, and mouths of soldiers, but especially MY soldiers, warms the cockles of my heart. And when the cockles of my heart are warmed I throw another capsule on the burner and say "WHERE THE feth DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING LINDSEY?!"


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 00:00:16


Post by: CptJake


As a new CDR, one of my PSGs was pretty worthless. We had the CS chamber and associated training on the training calendar and he came up with a 'No MOPP IV' profile two days prior.

My 1SG blew a gasket and wanted to lynch him. I kept calm and told top it was no big deal and had Top bring the PSG in with all his MOPP gear.

We then discussed the MOPP levels, and I made him turn over his gloves and informed him he would conduct the training in MOPP III.

The PSG turned bright red and Top almost pooped himself laughing. Folks forget the levels...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 00:26:26


Post by: Mannahnin


mattyrm wrote: Following numerous tales from the past couple of years of military men having "issues" when they leave, I have decided that PTSD is the new "race card" to be played by anyone who feths things up in their lives following their military careers.

In the same way that the victims of genuine racism have their own tales tarnished by the drug dealer with 500k of heroin in his trunk who bleats "it's cos I am black!" when they get hauled off to jail, I propose that the angsty, shame ridden types are in the minority. A huge minority, and a minority that feel safe to play the PTSD card because polticians universally praise the military, and it is expected from our society as a whole. I mean, no MP is willing to call some veteran a bum when he himself never went to Afghanistan, but lets have it said right here, they should be.


A) Bear in mind that some folks are genuinely messed up. One of the areas we can be a bit blind is in empathizing with people who are affected by something which doesn't seriously affect us. If I don't find something painful or traumatic, it can be really tempting to dismiss or disregard the legitimate experiences of people who do.

B) In regards to your larger point about people using it as an excuse, and about fakers and phonies and REMFs, you are a bit late to the party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor

Although we may have experienced more of it (particularly due to the 80s) on this side of the pond, with the Vietnam generation.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 00:31:44


Post by: CT GAMER


The problem is that even when mattyrm says something that might have a kernal of truth in it, it is lost in his usual "look at me and how hard I am" bluster...



Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 00:35:54


Post by: Monster Rain


That's not bluster.

That's mattyrm being modest.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 00:36:33


Post by: CT GAMER


Monster Rain wrote:That's not bluster.

That's mattyrm being modest.


The scary thing is your probably right...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 01:05:14


Post by: Sgt_Scruffy


Mattrym and is harder than a bag of hammers...

I used to be as well, then I took an arrow to the knee...


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 01:19:06


Post by: AustonT


mattyrm wrote:Following numerous tales from the past couple of years of military men having "issues" when they leave, I have decided that PTSD is the new "race card" to be played by anyone who feths things up in their lives following their military careers.

I hate how prolific PTSD diagnosis has become. I'm not sure if it's in the same vien as what you meant Matty but:
A guy I know got out of the Army to go to school. The longer he went to school the worse things got. He became increasingly irascible and bellicose. Most importantly he started getting paranoid. What traumatized him wasn't BEING a soldier; what traumatized him was NOT being a soldier. Things got progressively worse, and eventually he ended up shooting his best friend (non fatally). No one uttered a word about PTSD.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 01:36:01


Post by: Pacific


mattyrm wrote:

I found a guys ballbag on the road in Kabul once, it was hilarious, when I pointed it out to the rest of my multiple, everyone else thought it was funny as well, and we all took pictures and pointed and laughed, and then we all went home happily ever after and nobody needed to see a shrink, and I don't believe that 95% of people that leave the armed forces have a genuine issue. :


What was it Winston Churchill said about us speaking soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready to do others harm for us?

I don't mean that in a bad way at all, but seeing something like that would probably mess me up so perhaps it's a good thing that I'm not in the military.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 01:48:33


Post by: AustonT


George Orwell


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 02:06:06


Post by: CT GAMER


AustonT wrote:George Orwell


Another fitting Orwell quote:

Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.




Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 07:35:00


Post by: mattyrm


CT GAMER wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:That's not bluster.

That's mattyrm being modest.


The scary thing is your probably right...


Thing is CT, I've never tried to act "hard", my posts are almost always meant to be taken in good humour. They don't exist for me to tell strangers how much of a tough guy I am, but I may appear this way because soldiers really do have that blase attitude towards violence as it's essential to the job!

I can see why you appear to think im a douchebag, but I assure you im only fething about when i come across as an egotistical tit with a Johnny Rambo complex.

Well.. mostly.

Regards mannahins point, I clearly stated that PTSD is real and affects soldiers, that's an obvious truth. I basically said that a great many people who claim to have it don't, and this infuriates me because it diverts the efforts for the real sufferers, and provides a get out clause for donkey-caves who were donkey-caves to begin with, and who will always be donkey-caves!


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 07:50:19


Post by: dogma


I wonder if there are actual donkey caves in Afghanistan. As in caves where donkeys are kept.

I also wonder if they're more, or less, pleasant than donkey-caves.


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/06 13:59:53


Post by: mattyrm


dogma wrote:I wonder if there are actual donkey caves in Afghanistan. As in caves where donkeys are kept.

I also wonder if they're more, or less, pleasant than donkey-caves.


I typed that message on my phone unaware that the word donkey-cave gets changed into donkey-cave.

I cant believe they censor donkey-cave.

I mean, I get gak and feth... but donkey-cave?!

And yes Dogma, I hope that the donkeys have pleasent abodes, because I liked all the donkeys I met in Afghanistan.

Far more than the Afghans anyway!


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/07 01:07:55


Post by: Albatross


Well, to be fair the donkeys weren't shooting at you!


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/07 01:11:41


Post by: Monster Rain


In Kazakhstan they let the livestock live right inside their houses.

I saw it in a documentary.

Spoiler:


Hundreds of Iraqis Cheer Departure of US Forces @ 2012/01/07 05:01:44


Post by: AustonT


Monster Rain wrote:In Kazakhstan they let the livestock live right inside their houses.

I saw it in a documentary.

Those are the women.