This is another one of mine what if scenario's. Okay, what if a cache of 21st century weapons were found deep under ground on Terra, what will be the Imperiams/Mechanicus reaction to this discovery of ancient technology?
I think we can all agree that a Rhino will damn well outclass a humvee. And as per the OP's question, they would reverse engineer them, figure out their pieces of gak and burn them
TheAngrySquig wrote:I think we can all agree that a Rhino will damn well outclass a humvee. And as per the OP's question, they would reverse engineer them, figure out their pieces of gak and burn them
TheAngrySquig wrote:I think we can all agree that a Rhino will damn well outclass a humvee. And as per the OP's question, they would reverse engineer them, figure out their pieces of gak and burn them
Without a doubt, seeing as how a HMMWV is not an apc. Just to let you know. Its like saying a bradley ifv out classes a pick up.
As for the cache, the imperium will probually put it in a museum. Its neat, but way outdated, like how we have ancient arms and armor in museums. Imperial Tech is way more advanced then ours. In every aspect. The only thing that maybe close is computers. But i doubt it.
I don't know, I think that Metal Storm's million rounds per minute weapon system would be worth looking into as well as some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say South Africa's NTW-20 or the XM-109. And they could definitely do with low profile tanks.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Oh look another thermonuclear device...Say, is there still enough ammo/fuel for the battle tanks?
Yes! The armory is for whatever reason is extremely well built and is mostly intact.
I was talking about the imperial battle tanks
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Harriticus wrote:Honestly, UAV's would be quite useful for the Imperium and every armed faction in it.
Nah, the Mechanicus will prolly see it as tech-heresy, and order their advanced software destroyed. They'll then tinker with it ,and voila, you have a barely functional flying toyplane!
King Pariah wrote:I don't know, I think that Metal Storm's million rounds per minute weapon system would be worth looking into as well as some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say South Africa's NTW-20 or the XM-109. And they could definitely do with low profile tanks.
King Pariah wrote:I don't know, I think that Metal Storm's million rounds per minute weapon system would be worth looking into as well as some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say South Africa's NTW-20 or the XM-109. And they could definitely do with low profile tanks.
Metal Storm
Hell's Bells, what is that thing? A gun turret?
Metal Storm, capable of a million rounds per minute. Now tell me that the Imperium and Ad Mech wouldn't look into that!
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, but what does it do? Does it go on a tank?
It' has versatile usage and comes in varying sizes, it could go on a tank, a ship, or even a Humvee, could be used for annihilating an incoming missile, RPG, or shell. In 40k where there isn't a Geneva Convention, it could mow down columns upon columns of whatever happens to be charging them. A little reverse engineering by the Ad Mech, some sci fi tweaking, voila! screw autocannons, use this baby!
Oh, I'd like to point out that the NTW-20 is a 20mm sniper/anti-material rifle in current use by South Africa and a 14mm variant is used by Russia. And for those who know your calibers, that's much bigger than a .50 cal which is a 12.7mm round. The XM-109 is pretty much a 25mm grenade launcher (can fire HE rounds), with a scope, and is accurate up to ranges of 2.3-2.5 miles.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, but what does it do? Does it go on a tank?
It' has versatile usage and comes in varying sizes, it could go on a tank, a ship, or even a Humvee, could be used for annihilating an incoming missile, RPG, or shell. In 40k where there isn't a Geneva Convention, it could mow down columns upon columns of whatever happens to be charging them. A little reverse engineering by the Ad Mech, some sci fi tweaking, voila! screw autocannons, use this baby!
Or...imagine what would happen if it fired bolts...or canisters full of plasma!
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, but what does it do? Does it go on a tank?
It' has versatile usage and comes in varying sizes, it could go on a tank, a ship, or even a Humvee, could be used for annihilating an incoming missile, RPG, or shell. In 40k where there isn't a Geneva Convention, it could mow down columns upon columns of whatever happens to be charging them. A little reverse engineering by the Ad Mech, some sci fi tweaking, voila! screw autocannons, use this baby!
Or...imagine what would happen if it fired bolts...or canisters full of plasma!
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, but what does it do? Does it go on a tank?
It' has versatile usage and comes in varying sizes, it could go on a tank, a ship, or even a Humvee, could be used for annihilating an incoming missile, RPG, or shell. In 40k where there isn't a Geneva Convention, it could mow down columns upon columns of whatever happens to be charging them. A little reverse engineering by the Ad Mech, some sci fi tweaking, voila! screw autocannons, use this baby!
Or...imagine what would happen if it fired bolts...or canisters full of plasma!
xxmatt85 wrote:This is another one of mine what if scenario's. Okay, what if a cache of 21st century weapons were found deep under ground on Terra, what will be the Imperiams/Mechanicus reaction to this discovery of ancient technology?
Dude are you serious?
In a age of plasma and laser weaponry, with basic weapons that can fire mini rockets and explode on impact, star ships, super heavy tanks why the hell do they need our crappy weapons?
They have EVERYTHING superior to us, even their Lasgun ( one of the most weak weapons in the universe ) is more powerful then any of our modern assault rifles.
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King Pariah wrote:I don't know, I think that Metal Storm's million rounds per minute weapon system would be worth looking into as well as some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say South Africa's NTW-20 or the XM-109. And they could definitely do with low profile tanks.
Ever heard about Lascannons and Multilasers?
Or did you ever saw how big Space Marine sniper rifle is?
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, but what does it do? Does it go on a tank?
It' has versatile usage and comes in varying sizes, it could go on a tank, a ship, or even a Humvee, could be used for annihilating an incoming missile, RPG, or shell. In 40k where there isn't a Geneva Convention, it could mow down columns upon columns of whatever happens to be charging them. A little reverse engineering by the Ad Mech, some sci fi tweaking, voila! screw autocannons, use this baby!
Or...imagine what would happen if it fired bolts...or canisters full of plasma!
GENIUS!
*suicidal
This is the IoM we are talking about. If it kills 10x more of the enemy than of their own, it's considered a fair trade.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, but what does it do? Does it go on a tank?
It' has versatile usage and comes in varying sizes, it could go on a tank, a ship, or even a Humvee, could be used for annihilating an incoming missile, RPG, or shell. In 40k where there isn't a Geneva Convention, it could mow down columns upon columns of whatever happens to be charging them. A little reverse engineering by the Ad Mech, some sci fi tweaking, voila! screw autocannons, use this baby!
Or...imagine what would happen if it fired bolts...or canisters full of plasma!
GENIUS!
*suicidal
This is the IoM we are talking about. If it kills 10x more of the enemy than of their own, it's considered a fair trade.
It probably wouldn't get that far...
Overheating would be a colossal and fatal problem.
King Pariah wrote:I don't know, I think that Metal Storm's million rounds per minute weapon system would be worth looking into as well as some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say South Africa's NTW-20 or the XM-109. And they could definitely do with low profile tanks.
Ever heard about Lascannons and Multilasers?
Or did you ever saw how big Space Marine sniper rifle is?
Do you ever think outside of space marines? I don't know, like what could be used by the IG? These weapons I posted are operable by humans like you and I, well, I don't know about you.
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purplefood wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
purplefood wrote:
King Pariah wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
King Pariah wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yes, but what does it do? Does it go on a tank?
It' has versatile usage and comes in varying sizes, it could go on a tank, a ship, or even a Humvee, could be used for annihilating an incoming missile, RPG, or shell. In 40k where there isn't a Geneva Convention, it could mow down columns upon columns of whatever happens to be charging them. A little reverse engineering by the Ad Mech, some sci fi tweaking, voila! screw autocannons, use this baby!
Or...imagine what would happen if it fired bolts...or canisters full of plasma!
GENIUS!
*suicidal
This is the IoM we are talking about. If it kills 10x more of the enemy than of their own, it's considered a fair trade.
It probably wouldn't get that far...
Overheating would be a colossal and fatal problem.
Overheating isn't that huge of an issue with Metal Storm (nor is maintenance) as it has NO moving parts.
King Pariah wrote:
Do you ever think outside of space marines? I don't know, like what could be used by the IG? These weapons I posted are operable by humans like you and I, well, I don't know about you.
Uh... Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Teams? They have Heavy Bolters, Lascannons... Multilasers are like Gatling, but more powerful being an energy weapon.
Oh, they also have mini tank cannon as a field weapon and can fire it almost full auto...
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Then how does it fire? Surely there has to be firing mechanism to ignite the powder?
Nope, the Company who made this weapon (interestingly enough is also named Metal Storm), made it so it fires via an electrical signal. And i think all the weapons the make are like this. Who says Australians can't be bad ass?
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Then how does it fire? Surely there has to be firing mechanism to ignite the powder?
Nope, the Company who made this weapon (interestingly enough is also named Metal Storm), made it so it fires via an electrical signal. And i think all the weapons the make are like this. Who says Australians can't be bad ass?
However plasma would present a large problem...
Possibly bolt rounds as well...
King Pariah wrote:
Do you ever think outside of space marines? I don't know, like what could be used by the IG? These weapons I posted are operable by humans like you and I, well, I don't know about you.
Uh... Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Teams? They have Heavy Bolters, Lascannons... Multilasers are like Gatling, but more powerful being an energy weapon.
Oh, they also have mini tank cannon as a field weapon and can fire it almost full auto...
And how many of these weapons are operable by a single person? hmmmm... that's right, none. Sure you can "snipe" something with a lascannon, but in a team carrying around a weapon like that, someone is bound to spot you. Meanwhile with the NTW-20 and XM-109, they both can be operated by an individual. and these would make great replacements for the IG sniper rifles. And comparing Metal Storm to anything gatling ish or machine gun ish is laughable. they only fire hundreds or thousands of rounds per minute. Metal storm can fire MILLIONS of rounds per minute. Nothing in 40k fluff points to being able to release such a volume of fire.
King Pariah wrote:
Do you ever think outside of space marines? I don't know, like what could be used by the IG? These weapons I posted are operable by humans like you and I, well, I don't know about you.
Uh... Imperial Guard Heavy Weapons Teams? They have Heavy Bolters, Lascannons... Multilasers are like Gatling, but more powerful being an energy weapon.
Oh, they also have mini tank cannon as a field weapon and can fire it almost full auto...
And how many of these weapons are operable by a single person? hmmmm... that's right, none. Sure you can "snipe" something with a lascannon, but in a team carrying around a weapon like that, someone is bound to spot you. Meanwhile with the NTW-20 and XM-109, they both can be operated by an individual. and these would make great replacements for the IG sniper rifles. And comparing Metal Storm to anything gatling ish or machine gun ish is laughable. they only fire hundreds or thousands of rounds per minute. Metal storm can fire MILLIONS of rounds per minute. Nothing in 40k fluff points to being able to release such a volume of fire.
Except punisher gatlings.
But no one ever uses those...
(Note: the actual video is kinda old, the rate of fire can be sustained now (which result in one moving part so I am wrong there) and I believe India(?) has purchased several Metal Storms for their own use... said for anti terrorism purposes)
King Pariah wrote:
And how many of these weapons are operable by a single person? hmmmm... that's right, none. Sure you can "snipe" something with a lascannon, but in a team carrying around a weapon like that, someone is bound to spot you. Meanwhile with the NTW-20 and XM-109, they both can be operated by an individual. and these would make great replacements for the IG sniper rifles. And comparing Metal Storm to anything gatling ish or machine gun ish is laughable. they only fire hundreds or thousands of rounds per minute. Metal storm can fire MILLIONS of rounds per minute. Nothing in 40k fluff points to being able to release such a volume of fire.
-When was the last time you saw single Guardsman? Guardsman also goes in sniper teams.
-Long Las is perfectly fine, and having a long range and 100% accuracy ( you can piratically stand and still have 100% accuracy ).
-Million very weak rounds per minute, completely useless in the battlefields of 41'st millennium where basic enemy is strong as an Elephant. If you want to debate that this peace of gun turret is better then Heavy Bolter turret you can.
NTW-20 and XM-109 may be powerful, but they require ammo and Long Las is recharging on the Sunlight and pack more punch since it is creating mini plasma explosion on impact ( every las weapons does ).
(Note: the actual video is kinda old, the rate of fire can be sustained now (which result in one moving part so I am wrong there) and I believe India(?) has purchased several Metal Storms for their own use... said for anti terrorism purposes)
This video proves this thing even more useless, it will fire all it's ammo in a sort time. and after that it would need to be recharge.
Good maybe against Human targets. But everything else....
(Note: the actual video is kinda old, the rate of fire can be sustained now (which result in one moving part so I am wrong there) and I believe India(?) has purchased several Metal Storms for their own use... said for anti terrorism purposes)
This video proves this thing even more useless, it will fire all it's ammo in a sort time. and after that it would need to be recharge.
Good maybe against Human targets. But everything else....
Ai...but it would be very useful for the arbites, wouldn't you say?
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ai...but it would be very useful for the arbites, wouldn't you say?
It fire a million bullets per minute and there is a great chance that many bullets will hit that target again until it drops to the ground.
Let us say that those 1.000.000 bullets kill 100.000 Tyranids. What will stop those who come after them?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Ai...but it would be very useful for the arbites, wouldn't you say?
It fire a million bullets per minute and there is a great chance that many bullets will hit that target again until it drops to the ground. Let us say that those 1.000.000 bullets kill 100.000 Tyranids. What will stop those who come after them?
The other 500 weapon systems... Like you said 'When was the last time you saw single Guardsman?' the Imperium dances big or it doesn't dance at all.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ai...but it would be very useful for the arbites, wouldn't you say?
It fire a million bullets per minute and there is a great chance that many bullets will hit that target again until it drops to the ground.
Let us say that those 1.000.000 bullets kill 100.000 Tyranids. What will stop those who come after them?
Even more Metal Storms, as well as conventional IoM weapons?
Brother Coa wrote:
-When was the last time you saw single Guardsman? Guardsman also goes in sniper teams.
-Long Las is perfectly fine, and having a long range and 100% accuracy ( you can piratically stand and still have 100% accuracy ).
-Million very weak rounds per minute, completely useless in the battlefields of 41'st millennium where basic enemy is strong as an Elephant. If you want to debate that this peace of gun turret is better then Heavy Bolter turret you can.
NTW-20 and XM-109 may be powerful, but they require ammo and Long Las is recharging on the Sunlight and pack more punch since it is creating mini plasma explosion on impact ( every las weapons does ).
I'm amused that you say that it's a million weak rounds per minute, if you thought the gun in the video is what is being made right now you are terribly wrong. That was a demonstration, a toy compared to the real thing. Today's version is more like see that herd of elephants over there? BRRRRRRRRRRRRR (or half a second later)!!!! What elephants? This is designed to disintegrate incoming missiles, shells, etc. no "weak" gun is going to be able to do that.
Fine, with the NTW-20, but who doesn't want a sniper grenade launcher (the XM-109) or a team of them? And besides, what is the range of the long las? If I recall correctly (anyone feel free to correct me) but the NTW 20 has a range of roughly 1.5 miles and as I already said the XM-109 has a range of around 2.3 miles (I know it's above 2 miles and less than 2.5 so I'm going to say 2.3). If you can post the ranges of the Long Las then I'll submit if they happen to be greater than both.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Even more Metal Storms, as well as conventional IoM weapons?
What would they do when the big ones come?
Nobz? Warriors? Carnifexes? Space Marines?
Those weapons pack small caliber bullets, .45 .22 and .17 ( it says so on the site ), they can't do squat to stronger enemies while Lasweapons can.
I think the idea is to modify them to fire bigger and better bullets/projectiles.
That said a million rounds will probably give most things a moment of concern.
Apparently you missed the note that this video is OLD and the the rate of fire can be SUSTAINED now. You gotta remember that there is a 12 years difference between what the military has and what the public knows it has. I'm sure that in a decade you'll be hearing about a lovely weapon we use quite often called metal storm. sorta like the Blackbird, but that was like a 30 year gap there.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Even more Metal Storms, as well as conventional IoM weapons?
What would they do when the big ones come?
Nobz? Warriors? Carnifexes? Space Marines?
Those weapons pack small caliber bullets, .45 .22 and .17 ( it says so on the site ), they can't do squat to stronger enemies while Lasweapons can.
I think the idea is to modify them to fire bigger and better bullets/projectiles.
That said a million rounds will probably give most things a moment of concern.
That, and who in their right mind would bring an only an anti-light infantry weapon (that is how Coa is seeing it) to a large scale engagement?
The Metal Storms would clean up the little bastards, leaving the big guns to take care of the big bastards.
ad besides, who said that they would use metal storm as is? I never did. CthuluIsSpy never did. We both said it'd be reversed engineered and then scifi teched out to release waves of bolter rounds, plasma shells, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are .45 caliber rifle rounds.
What about rendering(ex.assult cannon) one or more of the MILLION bullets is going to hit a weak point sooner or later and who would fire an anti-light infantry weapon at carnifexes.
Fine, with the NTW-20, but who doesn't want a sniper grenade launcher (the XM-109) or a team of them? And besides, what is the range of the long las? If I recall correctly (anyone feel free to correct me) but the NTW 20 has a range of roughly 1.5 miles and as I already said the XM-109 has a range of around 2.3 miles (I know it's above 2 miles and less than 2.5 so I'm going to say 2.3). If you can post the ranges of the Long Las then I'll submit if they happen to be greater than both.
Is a directed energy weapon; theoretically, there IS no maximum range. Atmospheric diffusion would degrade the power of the bolt eventually, but in a future where you can power a man-killing laser from something the size of your hand, there's no possible way to tell how far the shot would travel before it was no longer effective.
So; somewhere between a few hundred yards and forever. Myself, I'm inclined to put it closer to the 'forever' end of that spectrum; if you can see it, you can shoot it. But I have no evidence for that. Black Library typically does not go into detail about the ranges at which engagements take place, and they want closer-ranged fights anyway because they're more dramatic.
Fine, with the NTW-20, but who doesn't want a sniper grenade launcher (the XM-109) or a team of them? And besides, what is the range of the long las? If I recall correctly (anyone feel free to correct me) but the NTW 20 has a range of roughly 1.5 miles and as I already said the XM-109 has a range of around 2.3 miles (I know it's above 2 miles and less than 2.5 so I'm going to say 2.3). If you can post the ranges of the Long Las then I'll submit if they happen to be greater than both.
Is a directed energy weapon; theoretically, there IS no maximum range. Atmospheric diffusion would degrade the power of the bolt eventually, but in a future where you can power a man-killing laser from something the size of your hand, there's no possible way to tell how far the shot would travel before it was no longer effective.
So; somewhere between a few hundred yards and forever. Myself, I'm inclined to put it closer to the 'forever' end of that spectrum; if you can see it, you can shoot it. But I have no evidence for that. Black Library typically does not go into detail about the ranges at which engagements take place, and they want closer-ranged fights anyway because they're more dramatic.
So...does that mean that if you miss, you could theoretically hit yourself from behind? It'll take a while, but it'll get there. Unless it travels only in straight lines. In that case, it'll cause a dent on some ship's windshield.
Fine, with the NTW-20, but who doesn't want a sniper grenade launcher (the XM-109) or a team of them? And besides, what is the range of the long las? If I recall correctly (anyone feel free to correct me) but the NTW 20 has a range of roughly 1.5 miles and as I already said the XM-109 has a range of around 2.3 miles (I know it's above 2 miles and less than 2.5 so I'm going to say 2.3). If you can post the ranges of the Long Las then I'll submit if they happen to be greater than both.
Is a directed energy weapon; theoretically, there IS no maximum range. Atmospheric diffusion would degrade the power of the bolt eventually, but in a future where you can power a man-killing laser from something the size of your hand, there's no possible way to tell how far the shot would travel before it was no longer effective.
So; somewhere between a few hundred yards and forever. Myself, I'm inclined to put it closer to the 'forever' end of that spectrum; if you can see it, you can shoot it. But I have no evidence for that. Black Library typically does not go into detail about the ranges at which engagements take place, and they want closer-ranged fights anyway because they're more dramatic.
more like between 100 meters and theoretically forever, after 100 meters a gamma ray has an exponential loss of energy. question is where does it go from beam of destructive energy to laser pointer
So...does that mean that if you miss, you could theoretically hit yourself from behind? It'll take a while, but it'll get there. Unless it travels only in straight lines. In that case, it'll cause a dent on some ship's windshield.
The second one. Assuming the beam doesn't diffract, it'll keep moving in a straight line until it hits something, which means that from the perspective of a human it will actually appear to curve UP and shoot out of the atmosphere at some point. It won't follow the curvature of the planet, and what we see as 'straight' lines aren't actually 'straight' if they're long enough, because human eyes are adapted to planetary conditions where the horizon curves down.
So...does that mean that if you miss, you could theoretically hit yourself from behind? It'll take a while, but it'll get there. Unless it travels only in straight lines. In that case, it'll cause a dent on some ship's windshield.
The second one. Assuming the beam doesn't diffract, it'll keep moving in a straight line until it hits something, which means that from the perspective of a human it will actually appear to curve UP and shoot out of the atmosphere at some point. It won't follow the curvature of the planet, and what we see as 'straight' lines aren't actually 'straight' if they're long enough, because human eyes are adapted to planetary conditions where the horizon curves down.
Ah of course. So no suicide by long range sniping then? Pity. That would have been hilarious.
It also means that if long-las weapons CAN be used at multiple-mile ranges, Imperial snipers have to carefully compensate for 'beam lift' instead of bullet drop, wherein a carelessly aimed long-las shot will 'rise' as it fails to follow the curvature of the planet, and shoot by over the targets head.
As a corollary, this would mean that a long-las sniper and an autorifle sniper cannot use each other's weapon without significant cross-training; they will try to compensate in the wrong direction for the opposite problem, and end up drastically missing the target!
So...does that mean that if you miss, you could theoretically hit yourself from behind? It'll take a while, but it'll get there. Unless it travels only in straight lines. In that case, it'll cause a dent on some ship's windshield.
The second one. Assuming the beam doesn't diffract, it'll keep moving in a straight line until it hits something, which means that from the perspective of a human it will actually appear to curve UP and shoot out of the atmosphere at some point. It won't follow the curvature of the planet, and what we see as 'straight' lines aren't actually 'straight' if they're long enough, because human eyes are adapted to planetary conditions where the horizon curves down.
Ah of course. So no suicide by long range sniping then? Pity. That would have been hilarious.
Unless by some pure fluke of the placement of stars that they curve the beam back at you, but it'd disapate in the atmosphere.... CURSES
King Pariah wrote: What elephants? This is designed to disintegrate incoming missiles, shells, etc. no "weak" gun is going to be able to do that.
The Impeorium need something to stop ENDLESS tides of enemy SOLDERS and MONSTERS.
What could this machine "That is designed to disintegrate incoming missiles, shells, etc" do against and Ork WARGHHH!!!! or Tyranid invasion?
Fine, with the NTW-20, but who doesn't want a sniper grenade launcher (the XM-109) or a team of them? And besides, what is the range of the long las? If I recall correctly (anyone feel free to correct me) but the NTW 20 has a range of roughly 1.5 miles and as I already said the XM-109 has a range of around 2.3 miles (I know it's above 2 miles and less than 2.5 so I'm going to say 2.3). If you can post the ranges of the Long Las then I'll submit if they happen to be greater than both.
Well range of Longlas is never mentioned in fluff ( as far as I know ), but I do know its big on table.
It's a beam of concentrated light, light travels 300.000 km/s. Longlas ceranly won't kill target in space, but it will kill it on a very large distance. Furthermore, it won't miss it's target even on 2 km because the light cannot be distorted like normal projectiles.
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King Pariah wrote:.45 caliber is a big gakking round
King Pariah wrote: What elephants? This is designed to disintegrate incoming missiles, shells, etc. no "weak" gun is going to be able to do that.
The Impeorium need something to stop ENDLESS tides of enemy SOLDERS and MONSTERS.
What could this machine "That is designed to disintegrate incoming missiles, shells, etc" do against and Ork WARGHHH!!!! or Tyranid invasion?
Fine, with the NTW-20, but who doesn't want a sniper grenade launcher (the XM-109) or a team of them? And besides, what is the range of the long las? If I recall correctly (anyone feel free to correct me) but the NTW 20 has a range of roughly 1.5 miles and as I already said the XM-109 has a range of around 2.3 miles (I know it's above 2 miles and less than 2.5 so I'm going to say 2.3). If you can post the ranges of the Long Las then I'll submit if they happen to be greater than both.
Well range of Longlas is never mentioned in fluff ( as far as I know ), but I do know its big on table.
It's a beam of concentrated light, light travels 300.000 km/s. Longlas ceranly won't kill target in space, but it will kill it on a very large distance. Furthermore, it won't miss it's target even on 2 km because the light cannot be distorted like normal projectiles.
1) It clearly isn't an endless tide.
2) Modifications can be made for other projectiles. Mortar rounds leap to mind.
3) Did you really need to capitalise soldiers?
nathan2195 wrote: What about rendering(ex.assult cannon) one or more of the MILLION bullets is going to hit a weak point sooner or later and who would fire an anti-light infantry weapon at carnifexes.
-enemies in the Imperium mostly come in masses. So you need your weapons in masses to. It's pointless to hit a weak point of one enemy solder when 10 more are there to replace it and you don't have ammo. -Guardsman in was use Lasguns against tanks. Go figure...
I see that this weapon's main problem would be ammo. If it spends 1.000.000 bullets per minute, imagine the reloading, or the demand to the Munitorium that is already big. Hence why Guard is using Las weapons the most - no problem with ammo. Hence the Lasscannons to.
But this weapon would be good for Marines, and maybe Tallarn and Catachan ( ambushes and blitz tactics ). But regular Gaird who use billion tones of ordinance per second? Not a chance in hell.
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purplefood wrote: 3) Did you really need to capitalise soldiers?
The user capitalizes misses. That means good against Eldar/Tau, useless against Orks/Nids/Necrons and Chaos Legions.
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purplefood wrote:
1) It clearly isn't an endless tide.
Really? Tell that to overrun worlds across the galaxy...
nathan2195 wrote:
What about rendering(ex.assult cannon) one or more of the MILLION bullets is going to hit a weak point sooner or later and who would fire an anti-light infantry weapon at carnifexes.
-enemies in the Imperium mostly come in masses. So you need your weapons in masses to. It's pointless to hit a weak point of one enemy solder when 10 more are there to replace it and you don't have ammo.
-Guardsman in was use Lasguns against tanks. Go figure...
I see that this weapon's main problem would be ammo. If it spends 1.000.000 bullets per minute, imagine the reloading, or the demand to the Munitorium that is already big.
Hence why Guard is using Las weapons the most - no problem with ammo. Hence the Lasscannons to.
But this weapon would be good for Marines, and maybe Tallarn and Catachan ( ambushes and blitz tactics ). But regular Gaird who use billion tones of ordinance per second? Not a chance in hell.
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purplefood wrote:
3) Did you really need to capitalise soldiers?
The user capitalizes misses. That means good against Eldar/Tau, useless against Orks/Nids/Necrons and Chaos Legions.
Why is it useless against orks and nids? Necrons and CSM are mostly heavy infantry.
Also billions of tons of ammo every second is a grotesque exaggeration.
purplefood wrote:
Also billions of tons of ammo every second is a grotesque exaggeration.
And how much ammo is used during the WW II in one day?
Imagine a planetary invasion then or a War stretching on several worlds..
It is useless because it's firing small caliber bullets, strong for unarmed Humans but next to nothing for Stampeding Ork horde.
If they could fire 1.000.000 exploding Bolter shells in minute that would be something them...
purplefood wrote:
Also billions of tons of ammo every second is a grotesque exaggeration.
And how much ammo is used during the WW II in one day?
Imagine a planetary invasion then or a War stretching on several worlds..
It is useless because it's firing small caliber bullets, strong for unarmed Humans but next to nothing for Stampeding Ork horde.
If they could fire 1.000.000 exploding Bolter shells in minute that would be something them...
I'm still amused how you assume that we are talking about having this weapon actually fielded in 40k. Of course not! What kind of idiot would do that? I was simply pointing out that Ad Mech would probably find great interest in this weapon, reverse engineer it, THEN IMPROVE ITTO PERHAPS FIRE SUCH MUNITIONS AS BOLTER ROUNDS OR THE LIKE.
This has been said several times and not only just by me. Stop just reading what you want to read and read the entirety of our posts.
purplefood wrote:
Also billions of tons of ammo every second is a grotesque exaggeration.
And how much ammo is used during the WW II in one day?
Imagine a planetary invasion then or a War stretching on several worlds..
It is useless because it's firing small caliber bullets, strong for unarmed Humans but next to nothing for Stampeding Ork horde.
If they could fire 1.000.000 exploding Bolter shells in minute that would be something them...
Believe it or not but most people were a touch too bsy during WW2 to count bullets.
Every second is still an exaggeration.
.45 isn't a small calibre and also what King Pariah said.
Brother Coa wrote:I read it and I believe I said the following: they would dump the weapon because it would spend a LOT of ammunition.
Disturbing and replacing ammo is a big problem in 40k, even in best of wartimes.
I am... so amused.
Instead of firing, say, 3,000 rounds in a minute to mow down a bunch of angry orks, with this weapon (ehanced to 40k specs) you could fire 3,000 rounds in a fraction of a second and have the orks disappear.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I gotta run, have a meeting to get too. But I'll be back maybe in a few hours. Till them toodles, and don't hurt yourselves!
Instead of firing, say, 3,000 rounds in a minute to mow down a bunch of angry orks, with this weapon (ehanced to 40k specs) you could fire 3,000 rounds in a fraction of a second and have the orks disappear.
And what about the Orks behind them? And behind them? and behind them?...
Weapon would spend it's ammo long before Orks run out of Orks to overrun you. You wouldn't even get to reload it.
But this weapon has it's good side, it would be good against army's who use elites ( like Tau battlesuit or Eldar Warp Spiders ). I can see it in service of Astartes, Guard will always choose manpower over such weapon.
Instead of firing, say, 3,000 rounds in a minute to mow down a bunch of angry orks, with this weapon (ehanced to 40k specs) you could fire 3,000 rounds in a fraction of a second and have the orks disappear.
And what about the Orks behind them? And behind them? and behind them?...
Weapon would spend it's ammo long before Orks run out of Orks to overrun you. You wouldn't even get to reload it.
But this weapon has it's good side, it would be good against army's who use elites ( like Tau battlesuit or Eldar Warp Spiders ). I can see it in service of Astartes, Guard will always choose manpower over such weapon.
I don't get what you mean...
If you use 500 rounds to kill 50 orks then this gun will simply do it faster.
You use the same number of rounds but faster...
purplefood wrote:
I don't get what you mean...
If you use 500 rounds to kill 50 orks then this gun will simply do it faster.
You use the same number of rounds but faster...
It's not that, in comparison to this gun Heavy Bolter turret and Multilaser probably fire much slower.
But they kill a lot more enemy solders because they are accurate, if you build a gun that burst ammo that fast you get degraded accuracy.
And it will eventually run out of ammo because enemies comes in more grater numbers then 50. Adn some of them have great armor to that you can punch only with anti-armor ammunition.
And I don't need 500 rounds for 50 Orks, I only need 50 if Space Marine and around 150 - 200 if I am a Guardsman.
purplefood wrote: I don't get what you mean... If you use 500 rounds to kill 50 orks then this gun will simply do it faster. You use the same number of rounds but faster...
It's not that, in comparison to this gun Heavy Bolter turret and Multilaser probably fire much slower. But they kill a lot more enemy solders because they are accurate, if you build a gun that burst ammo that fast you get degraded accuracy. And it will eventually run out of ammo because enemies comes in more grater numbers then 50. Adn some of them have great armor to that you can punch only with anti-armor ammunition. And I don't need 500 rounds for 50 Orks, I only need 50 if Space Marine and around 150 - 200 if I am a Guardsman.
King Pariah wrote:I don't know, I think that Metal Storm's million rounds per minute weapon system would be worth looking into as well as some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say South Africa's NTW-20 or the XM-109. And they could definitely do with low profile tanks.
Metal Storm
Hell's Bells, what is that thing? A gun turret?
Metal Storm, capable of a million rounds per minute. Now tell me that the Imperium and Ad Mech wouldn't look into that!
It would be overcosted and only AP5 so most Imperial players wouldn't field it...
Ah, I'm back, meeting was surprisingly short, gotta say, thanks purplefood for finding that vid and pointing out it's anti armor capabilities both in it's HE capacity (which slipped my mind ) and the supersonic spear effect (which I also forgot ), and I think that video shows also displays the accuracy of the weapon and it's current variants which is due to the delayed recoil effect it has as you'll notice in the example with the handgun the upper receiver (I suppose since it has no bolt) is in the process of sliding backwards while multiple rounds are fired only to begin recoil once the rounds are spent/once several rounds have exited the barrel and the receiver has reached it's sliding limit.
purplefood wrote:
I don't get what you mean...
If you use 500 rounds to kill 50 orks then this gun will simply do it faster.
You use the same number of rounds but faster...
It's not that, in comparison to this gun Heavy Bolter turret and Multilaser probably fire much slower.
But they kill a lot more enemy solders because they are accurate, if you build a gun that burst ammo that fast you get degraded accuracy.
And it will eventually run out of ammo because enemies comes in more grater numbers then 50. Adn some of them have great armor to that you can punch only with anti-armor ammunition.
And I don't need 500 rounds for 50 Orks, I only need 50 if Space Marine and around 150 - 200 if I am a Guardsman.
You can set the system up however you want. if you watch the video, it shows that the Metal Storm can fire 40mm grenades at 250k rounds/m. which is a hell of a lot faster than any bolter, with an explosive round larger than a heavy bolter. you can fire a row of grenades into the charging orks, wait for them to explode, then shoot the next row, and so on. Reloading is as easy as opening the back and shoving more rounds in.
Also, there is no accuracy degradation because each round it in its own barrel. Degraded accuracy comes from the barrel moving around due to weapon recoil. If there are 30 barrel attached to each other, then that is attached to a platform, the recoil will be far less.
The Metal Storm system would be insanely useful against any horde army, especially if it fired 40mm grenades.
25mm is slightly smaller than 1in, and larger than a Bolter round. Sure, it holds less ammo, but has the same effect (actually, I doubt bolter shells have an airburst function).
As the years go on, current military hardware is becoming more and more powerful. We have laser weapons that can take out planes, sonic weapons that disorient foes, and two weapons (the XM-25 and Metal Storm) that are bigger and in many ways better than IoM tech.
Fluff-wise, GW needs to update their fluff in the same way Shadowrun did when the internet was invented. It'll be only a few years before people will look at WH40k and say "we have better tech than that today, and this is supposed to be 40,000 years in the future?" Ok, maybe longer than few years, but you see what I mean.
purplefood wrote:
I don't get what you mean...
If you use 500 rounds to kill 50 orks then this gun will simply do it faster.
You use the same number of rounds but faster...
It's not that, in comparison to this gun Heavy Bolter turret and Multilaser probably fire much slower.
But they kill a lot more enemy solders because they are accurate, if you build a gun that burst ammo that fast you get degraded accuracy.
And it will eventually run out of ammo because enemies comes in more grater numbers then 50. Adn some of them have great armor to that you can punch only with anti-armor ammunition.
And I don't need 500 rounds for 50 Orks, I only need 50 if Space Marine and around 150 - 200 if I am a Guardsman.
You can set the system up however you want. if you watch the video, it shows that the Metal Storm can fire 40mm grenades at 250k rounds/m. which is a hell of a lot faster than any bolter, with an explosive round larger than a heavy bolter. you can fire a row of grenades into the charging orks, wait for them to explode, then shoot the next row, and so on. Reloading is as easy as opening the back and shoving more rounds in.
Also, there is no accuracy degradation because each round it in its own barrel. Degraded accuracy comes from the barrel moving around due to weapon recoil. If there are 30 barrel attached to each other, then that is attached to a platform, the recoil will be far less.
The Metal Storm system would be insanely useful against any horde army, especially if it fired 40mm grenades.
25mm is slightly smaller than 1in, and larger than a Bolter round. Sure, it holds less ammo, but has the same effect (actually, I doubt bolter shells have an airburst function).
As the years go on, current military hardware is becoming more and more powerful. We have laser weapons that can take out planes, sonic weapons that disorient foes, and two weapons (the XM-25 and Metal Storm) that are bigger and in many ways better than IoM tech.
Fluff-wise, GW needs to update their fluff in the same way Shadowrun did when the internet was invented. It'll be only a few years before people will look at WH40k and say "we have better tech than that today, and this is supposed to be 40,000 years in the future?" Ok, maybe longer than few years, but you see what I mean.
purplefood wrote:
I don't get what you mean...
If you use 500 rounds to kill 50 orks then this gun will simply do it faster.
You use the same number of rounds but faster...
It's not that, in comparison to this gun Heavy Bolter turret and Multilaser probably fire much slower.
But they kill a lot more enemy solders because they are accurate, if you build a gun that burst ammo that fast you get degraded accuracy.
And it will eventually run out of ammo because enemies comes in more grater numbers then 50. Adn some of them have great armor to that you can punch only with anti-armor ammunition.
And I don't need 500 rounds for 50 Orks, I only need 50 if Space Marine and around 150 - 200 if I am a Guardsman.
You can set the system up however you want. if you watch the video, it shows that the Metal Storm can fire 40mm grenades at 250k rounds/m. which is a hell of a lot faster than any bolter, with an explosive round larger than a heavy bolter. you can fire a row of grenades into the charging orks, wait for them to explode, then shoot the next row, and so on. Reloading is as easy as opening the back and shoving more rounds in.
Also, there is no accuracy degradation because each round it in its own barrel. Degraded accuracy comes from the barrel moving around due to weapon recoil. If there are 30 barrel attached to each other, then that is attached to a platform, the recoil will be far less.
The Metal Storm system would be insanely useful against any horde army, especially if it fired 40mm grenades.
25mm is slightly smaller than 1in, and larger than a Bolter round. Sure, it holds less ammo, but has the same effect (actually, I doubt bolter shells have an airburst function).
As the years go on, current military hardware is becoming more and more powerful. We have laser weapons that can take out planes, sonic weapons that disorient foes, and two weapons (the XM-25 and Metal Storm) that are bigger and in many ways better than IoM tech.
Fluff-wise, GW needs to update their fluff in the same way Shadowrun did when the internet was invented. It'll be only a few years before people will look at WH40k and say "we have better tech than that today, and this is supposed to be 40,000 years in the future?" Ok, maybe longer than few years, but you see what I mean.
One weapon I forgot about: the GAU-8/A (I think that's the name of it) on the A-10 Thunderbolt, also known as "the Flying Gun."
It fires 30mm rounds at 6k rounds/min, and is used for annihilating tanks. It has over 4 tons of recoil, with actually cuts the speed of the plane it is attached to in half.
I think that the IoM would be very interesting in that.
McNinja wrote:One weapon I forgot about: the GAU-8/A (I think that's the name of it) on the A-10 Thunderbolt, also known as "the Flying Gun."
It fires 30mm rounds at 6k rounds/min, and is used for annihilating tanks. It has over 4 tons of recoil, with actually cuts the speed of the plane it is attached to in half.
I think that the IoM would be very interesting in that.
True that, those pack a hell of a punch, but I suppose one has to wonder about the punisher gatling, the Vulcan Mega Bolter being possible equivalents I suppose... Though those 30mm rounds kill tanks like it was nothing, so then again, perhaps Ad Mech would be interested in it.
Well we can see how ignorant the Imperium is by reading Brother Coa´s posts. HURR IMPERIUM HURR
Nothing ill meant Coa, its just these are real weapons while the Imperial weps are made up by nerds. I mean really, a pistol that fires a bolt as powerfull as the sun...
Brother Coa wrote:
Fluff-wise, GW needs to update their fluff in the same way Shadowrun did when the internet was invented. It'll be only a few years before people will look at WH40k and say "we have better tech than that today, and this is supposed to be 40,000 years in the future?" Ok, maybe longer than few years, but you see what I mean.
NIcely put
^ Seconded
But the whole dealio with 40k is that this is true, that the inventions up until the Age of Strife were or are possibly greater than anything created after Unification hence the importance and active search for STCs etc. So in a way GW have got their asses covered by saying that if there are better things now then in 40k, it's because it was lost and hasn't been discovered again.
From The Titan Legions (by Rick Priestley, excerpted from WD 178)
The planet soon became a battleground where rival warlords fought over the ruins of a once great civilisation. All of Earth's ancient knowledge was lost and its cities destroyed
When the Cult Mechanicus restored order to Mars its leaders looked to Earth and beyond, hoping to find remnants of human knowledge on other worlds. The Tech- Priests were appalled at the destruction on Earth and judged there was nothing worth saving.
The metalstorm can already currently fire anti-armour rounds. It is also very accurate.
2 words: EMP shock wave.
After that this weapon become just pile of metal to loot.
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McNinja wrote:One weapon I forgot about: the GAU-8/A (I think that's the name of it) on the A-10 Thunderbolt, also known as "the Flying Gun."
It fires 30mm rounds at 6k rounds/min, and is used for annihilating tanks. It has over 4 tons of recoil, with actually cuts the speed of the plane it is attached to in half.
I think that the IoM would be very interesting in that.
Like they don't have something called Autocannons that are mounted on Thunderbolts, just fire slower but have more powerful round to fire.
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Warrior Squirrel wrote:Well we can see how ignorant the Imperium is by reading Brother Coa´s posts. HURR IMPERIUM HURR
Nothing ill meant Coa, its just these are real weapons while the Imperial weps are made up by nerds. I mean really, a pistol that fires a bolt as powerfull as the sun...
Ha ha ha....very funny.....
But you are right, GW need to update it's fluff in run with current technology ( some of it anyway ).
And if you read more clearly I said that Metal Storm would be adopted by Astartes, now I am sure because I looked at that purplefood video. Thank you purplefood However, the ammunition problem still remains, the gun fire to much ammo to fast and because of that I see very little use in the Guard.
Maybe they will mount it on top of Chimera chassis and use it as Astartes use Razborack.
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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Convert the metalstorm to fire as a multilaser. Hook it up to a solar panel. There, now its str 6 ap 6 assualt 1,000,000
Then it will became a simple Multilaser. It is unique because it can fire 1.000.000 projectile rounds per minute.
If you turn it into energy weapon it will became just a regular IG turret. Energy weapons just have different power output, the more powerful the shot is the slower it is.
Now, if you could convert for Lasscannon to fire that quickly...
Now my suggestion on what should Imperium use on the battlefield more often:
This would be excellent for Guard against everybody - even Tau.
You do know a difference between a plane and FLYING FORTRESS that are hard to shot down?
To my knowledge Imperium doesn't have anything like it. Tau have Manta, but it is not the same thing ( Manta is a transport ).
It is hard to shot something down when it operates beyond ordinary missile range.
You do know a difference between a plane and FLYING FORTRESS that are hard to shot down?
To my knowledge Imperium doesn't have anything like it. Tau have Manta, but it is not the same thing ( Manta is a transport ).
It is hard to shot something down when it operates beyond ordinary missile range.
Ummm... The AC-130 is not hard to shoot down and really can only be effectively operated in areas where air superiority has been established... C-130's and their variants may be big, but big doesn't mean a whole lot with an aircraft's survivability. And that EMP statement is easily overcome, ever heard of EMP hardened circuits? (Hell, by that logic, lasguns could probably be taken out as well as tanks and titans and aircraft...)
The metalstorm can already currently fire anti-armour rounds. It is also very accurate.
2 words: EMP shock wave. After that this weapon become just pile of metal to loot.
That 3... or 5 depending on how you look at it. No one uses EMPs because everyone is either unaffected or proofed against it. Lasguns for instance would also be useless... Just give up Coa. Your arguments are all defeated. Ammo isn't an issue we have been through that already...
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Glad you didnt say Caboose. I guess my intentionaly failed logic is still working. Well not now since i told. You. It is intentionally failed logic.
No, you were not really debating and was pretty amusing in a good way. I got a huge chuckle when you said the million shot multilaser would kill 147 chapters.
DeffDred wrote:So... the Metal Storm fires a million rounds a minute?
So It cost a few million dollars to fire it for two minutes?
That don't make sence.
I thought it had 99 tubes with 12 rounds each, firing 99 shot each second.
Sorry if this was answered but the conversation was running in circles on page one.
So I skipped to the end.
First off it's doubtful anyone would hold down the trigger for that long. Anyone who knows machine guns and automatic weapons in general can tell you it's not a good idea. And different versions have different amount of ammunition and one variant I can think of has a sort of reloading system where the empty barrels are pushed out the side and a new set drops into place from the top. Anyway, this weapon is more like fire a few volleys here, a few volleys there and a few here. Where as with the weapons in 40k and many now would take maybe 5 seconds for each volley, this can do that same volley in a fraction of a second. Same amount of rounds going the same place, but faster.
King Pariah wrote:
Ummm... The AC-130 is not hard to shoot down and really can only be effectively operated in areas where air superiority has been established... C-130's and their variants may be big, but big doesn't mean a whole lot with an aircraft's survivability. And that EMP statement is easily overcome, ever heard of EMP hardened circuits? (Hell, by that logic, lasguns could probably be taken out as well as tanks and titans and aircraft...)
I know that, if they just protect him they could bring harm to the enemy. Against Tyranids or Orks who lack air support Specter would be more then enough.
It would be more precise then artillery, and if they mount Vanquisher and Exterminator cannons on it it would be death for those on ground.
And the Guard lacks just that kind of thing, air support flying fortress.
King Pariah wrote:
Ummm... The AC-130 is not hard to shoot down and really can only be effectively operated in areas where air superiority has been established... C-130's and their variants may be big, but big doesn't mean a whole lot with an aircraft's survivability. And that EMP statement is easily overcome, ever heard of EMP hardened circuits? (Hell, by that logic, lasguns could probably be taken out as well as tanks and titans and aircraft...)
I know that, if they just protect him they could bring harm to the enemy. Against Tyranids or Orks who lack air support Specter would be more then enough.
It would be more precise then artillery, and if they mount Vanquisher and Exterminator cannons on it it would be death for those on ground.
And the Guard lacks just that kind of thing, air support flying fortress.
purplefood wrote:
Lasguns for instance would also be useless...
Just give up Coa.
Your arguments are all defeated. Ammo isn't an issue we have been through that already...
Aren't Lasguns protected against EMP since Tau are known to use them?
Ammo isn't the issue? Tell that to Scytes of The Emperor who ran out of ammo in the end.
And if you read Taros Campaign you would notice how chaotic Imperial supply of ammunition can be ( like Stormtroopers receiving horse saddles instead of vox gear, and that was before engagements ). It's easy to transport it and supply it today when engagements are local and enemy is few. In 40k everything is on big scale and Guard waste ammo more then then Munitorium can deliver it. My arguments are still Las weapons. If the Guard didn't have ammo problems they would stick to the Autoguns and Bolters not Lasguns.
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purplefood wrote:
They lack it for a reason. The Navy have it.
No they don't. Give me one example of imperial Craft similar to Spectre in role.
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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Coa, how can you argue against a las-storm.
I am arguing against small caliber storm efficiency against Marines and Carnifex alike.
Lass storm of 1.000.000 Guardsmen can take down a space ship with all that power
purplefood wrote: Lasguns for instance would also be useless... Just give up Coa. Your arguments are all defeated. Ammo isn't an issue we have been through that already...
Aren't Lasguns protected against EMP since Tau are known to use them? Ammo isn't the issue? Tell that to Scytes of The Emperor who ran out of ammo in the end. And if you read Taros Campaign you would notice how chaotic Imperial supply of ammunition can be ( like Stormtroopers receiving horse saddles instead of vox gear, and that was before engagements ). It's easy to transport it and supply it today when engagements are local and enemy is few. In 40k everything is on big scale and Guard waste ammo more then then Munitorium can deliver it. My arguments are still Las weapons. If the Guard didn't have ammo problems they would stick to the Autoguns and Bolters not Lasguns.
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purplefood wrote: They lack it for a reason. The Navy have it.
No they don't. Give me one example of imperial Craft similar to Spectre in role.
Imperator class battleship. Hell a destroyer has enough firepower to be of use in support. If everyone is dead ammo wouldn't be an issue. it's the same number of rounds used but faster what part of that don't you get? They use heavy bolters, mortars and missile launchers already it wouldn't take much to supply them with whatever ammo they needed. They could used HB rounds with a few modifications.
purplefood wrote:
Imperator class battleship.
Hell a destroyer has enough firepower to be of use in support.
Your logic is failed, I never saw Imperial ship entering atmosphere and proving support with his weapons.
I am talking about big plane with tank and artillery armament, not freaking spaceship that is several kilometers long.
If everyone is dead ammo wouldn't be an issue. it's the same number of rounds used but faster what part of that don't you get? They use heavy bolters, mortars and missile launchers already it wouldn't take much to supply them with whatever ammo they needed. They could used HB rounds with a few modifications.
Heavy Bolter turrets don't spend 1.000.000 Bolts in minute.
purplefood wrote:
Imperator class battleship.
Hell a destroyer has enough firepower to be of use in support.
Your logic is failed, I never saw Imperial ship entering atmosphere and proving support with his weapons.
I am talking about big plane with tank and artillery armament, not freaking spaceship that is several kilometers long.
If everyone is dead ammo wouldn't be an issue. it's the same number of rounds used but faster what part of that don't you get? They use heavy bolters, mortars and missile launchers already it wouldn't take much to supply them with whatever ammo they needed. They could used HB rounds with a few modifications.
Heavy Bolter turrets don't spend 1.000.000 Bolts in minute.
Yeah but if heavy bolters did they'd be better. Even better than them is the metalstorm.
Why have a plane that can be shot down when you have a gigantic spaceship? The spaceship wins.
This super high rate of fire weapons are fairly redundant and useless, the ammo they waste doesn't make up for their performance, I'd feel better IRL with a .50 Cal or MAG over a Metal Storm, and if I was in warhammer I'd certainly feel better with a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon.
That being said, a ridiculous "1 million rounds per minute" weapon does fit in nicely with the over-the-top weapons of 40k.
UAV's and an AC-130 would probably be useful for the Imperium. The AC-130 would be given engines similar to a Valkyrie instead of its propellers I imagine.
Another useful weapon would be accurate long-range Cruise Missiles: Tomahawk, AGM-86, AGM-129, and so on. They could take out enemy strongpoints from thousands of km away and if you put a small plasma, nuclear, or virus warhead on them you'd get catastrophic damage. Much cheaper and simpler then a Deathstrike as well.
purplefood wrote:
Why have a plane that can be shot down when you have a gigantic spaceship? The spaceship wins.
Because they are not using them at all in the fluff?
Seriously pf, every time Imperium invade a planet fleet just sit up there and do nothing.
They only bombard sometimes, blowing half of the city in process.
purplefood wrote:
Why have a plane that can be shot down when you have a gigantic spaceship? The spaceship wins.
Because they are not using them at all in the fluff?
Seriously pf, every time Imperium invade a planet fleet just sit up there and do nothing.
They only bombard sometimes, blowing half of the city in process.
They have the skill to make precision shots.
They often do.
Harriticus wrote:This super high rate of fire weapons are fairly redundant and useless, the ammo they waste doesn't make up for their performance, I'd feel better IRL with a .50 Cal or MAG over a Metal Storm, and if I was in warhammer I'd certainly feel better with a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon.
That being said, a ridiculous "1 million rounds per minute" weapon does fit in nicely with the over-the-top weapons of 40k.
Precisely my point.
UAV's and an AC-130 would probably be useful for the Imperium. The AC-130 would be given engines similar to a Valkyrie instead of its propellers I imagine.
I don't know for UAV but A-10 would be perfect. Just exchange standard bullets for autocannon round and there you go.
Another useful weapon would be accurate long-range Cruise Missiles: Tomahawk, AGM-86, AGM-129, and so on. They could take out enemy strongpoints from thousands of km away and if you put a small plasma, nuclear, or virus warhead on them you'd get catastrophic damage. Much cheaper and simpler then a Deathstrike as well.
Uh.....Hunter-Killer missile?
Just make a big one.
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purplefood wrote:
They often do.
Most of the time they don't.
It is usually the ground forces that do all the work. Navy just send fighters and bombers. they act only if they need town erased from the surface, nothing more.
Harriticus wrote:This super high rate of fire weapons are fairly redundant and useless, the ammo they waste doesn't make up for their performance, I'd feel better IRL with a .50 Cal or MAG over a Metal Storm, and if I was in warhammer I'd certainly feel better with a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon.
That being said, a ridiculous "1 million rounds per minute" weapon does fit in nicely with the over-the-top weapons of 40k.
UAV's and an AC-130 would probably be useful for the Imperium. The AC-130 would be given engines similar to a Valkyrie instead of its propellers I imagine.
Another useful weapon would be accurate long-range Cruise Missiles: Tomahawk, AGM-86, AGM-129, and so on. They could take out enemy strongpoints from thousands of km away and if you put a small plasma, nuclear, or virus warhead on them you'd get catastrophic damage. Much cheaper and simpler then a Deathstrike as well.
I think you miss out on what makes metal storm actually a good weapon system. I mean several nations are already purchasing a utilizing it IRL. It's fast and accurate. On the battlefield, those who are accurate tend to win. If all involved are accurate, then those who are faster tend to win. Metal storm provides volleys of high speed accurate rounds to annihilate whatever you need destroyed, you need to intercept missiles? Check. Wipe out a battalion of tanks? Check. Wipe out a convoy? Check. Clear a fortified structure? Check. Are there other ways to pull off these tasks? Yes, but most of those are either more expensive or take longer. And I don't think I should have to say this, but in the field of battle, time means a lot. The longer you have to engage the enemy, the higher your chances become of you being wiped out. I know that if I were facing down a crazy mad horde of orks or CSM, I'd be glad to have even one metal storm (obviously 40k'd out) to lay down some heavy volleys to thin out their ranks in not even seconds.
I'll admit that the AC-130 wouldn't be a terrible idea to have, if it were not for imperial warships already being able to drop some heavy orbital strikes from space which would nullify much of the worry of being shot down especially over such extremely hostile territory. Tomahawks and the such are also pretty awesome, but are more of a last resort when no warship can provide orbital support.
The Imperial Armor books often describe excellent arial tactics being used, especially by space marines performing surgical strikes.
The Rogue Trader RPG series also describes there being numerous forms of air support, from fighters to lighters to gunships.
We don't get stories about 'most of the time', just like we don't study most of modern battles. We pay attention when things go wrong (bay of pigs, black hawk down, etc). When bombardment is an option, or total air superiority has been achieved there isn't a story to be discussed. What we here about (in the well written stories at least) are battles where those aren't options.
Orbital ships cannot come into range due to fortified weaponry on the ground, or the area is too valuable to be destroyed. Heavy jamming, anti air weaponry, and countermeasures make aerial support untenable. Key objectives have to be captured before the main force arrives. Those are the situations most 40k games and books illustrait. The Imperium has been demonstrated to have equivalents to most modern weapons, and can be extrapolated to have improved versions of all of them, and when they can be used I'm sure they are. You just don't get books about those situations.
And then there is the horrible writing, obviously.
Why are you all seeking logical warfare tactics in a game that has people flying halfway across the galaxy to fight an enemy with swords? W40k is ruled by the rule of cool not sound tactics. If the imperium got there hands on metal storm they would no doubt use it. But you would not see it in a codex (how much dice would you need to roll) Besides do we even know the rate of fire of a punnisher canon?
Lord Demon wrote:Why are you all seeking logical warfare tactics in a game that has people flying halfway across the galaxy to fight an enemy with swords? W40k is ruled by the rule of cool not sound tactics. If the imperium got there hands on metal storm they would no doubt use it. But you would not see it in a codex (how much dice would you need to roll) Besides do we even know the rate of fire of a punnisher canon?
Ugh, I hate this argument. "Why are you talking about how light-sabers would work, they are rule of cool magic swords in space", "Gosh, why are you talking about the ethics of Star Trek transportation, it was just a way to avoid using lander props."
You know the answer to your own question right? Because people enjoy discussing and comparing fictional universes? Is this really that hard? How come whenever some people see a fun conversation about a fictional universe they have to jump in, "you know that is imaginary right? Hurr hurr, no fun for you."
The fun is in discussing WHY would they fight like that, and how would that style of warfare match up with this style.
If you approach it like you would the real world it is a fun conversation. Have you ever heard people complain about victorian line warfare? "hah hah, their dumb, wearing their bright red coats and standing in lines. Psssh, how dumb, don't they know camo and gurilla warfare is superior?" But it turns out when you study the subject, it turns out it DID make sense and was an excellent approach to warfare for the period and location. The unifroms and flags allowed coordination and command before the existence of radio and radar, the pipes, drums and horns were used to help unit cohesion and to give orders, and volley fire allowed you to raise large, deadly armies without years of training.
So people approach fictional universes the same way, as if they were real. You know how Tolkien spend years developing his world, the language, history, poetry, etc? He did it for the same reason. It is fun to think about the possabilities of a fictional universe. Why is this so hard for some people?
Brother Coa wrote:And swords in 40k do make sense.
Lots of melee combat is one example.
QFT. Most people don't realize it, but melee weapons trump a holstered fire arm at 15ft, and trump an unholstered firearm at 6 ft. Look up the results of the Tueller Drill if your interested. Things like jump jets and inhumanly fast enemies can greatly increase that threat range.
The fact that there are so many enemies in 40k that use CC, and effective ways to get in CC range is enough reason for CC units to exist in every army, since they are one of the few effective counters. They also have use as terror weapons.
Brother Coa wrote:
Fluff-wise, GW needs to update their fluff in the same way Shadowrun did when the internet was invented. It'll be only a few years before people will look at WH40k and say "we have better tech than that today, and this is supposed to be 40,000 years in the future?" Ok, maybe longer than few years, but you see what I mean.
NIcely put
^ Seconded
But the whole dealio with 40k is that this is true, that the inventions up until the Age of Strife were or are possibly greater than anything created after Unification hence the importance and active search for STCs etc. So in a way GW have got their asses covered by saying that if there are better things now then in 40k, it's because it was lost and hasn't been discovered again.
From The Titan Legions (by Rick Priestley, excerpted from WD 178)
The planet soon became a battleground where rival warlords fought over the ruins of a once great civilisation. All of Earth's ancient knowledge was lost and its cities destroyed
When the Cult Mechanicus restored order to Mars its leaders looked to Earth and beyond, hoping to find remnants of human knowledge on other worlds. The Tech- Priests were appalled at the destruction on Earth and judged there was nothing worth saving.
Bit of a cop - out admittedly
It is indeed a massive cop-out, but therein lies the problem: the WH40k universe is built on the concept of turning up to "11." It can't be at "11" if current day tech beats it out by a longshot, no matter how well GW covers their ass with BS cop-outs. Comparatively, the tech need to be more powerful than ours. Also, GW needs to define their tech more. I haven't read any of the books, but it seems that there isn't a lot of demonstrations against their own tech. We need to know A) how 40k materials compare to current day materials (is 1inch of Adamantium equal to six inches of titanium? ten inches?) and B) how the various weapons of 40K react to those materials. Gauss weapons are the most fearsome because they have a very overarching effect on all materials, but how about the others? Aside form Eldar D-weapons, of course.
The reason we know how effective our weapons are is because we have something to compare them against. There are no standards of comparison in the 40k universe, which is why it seems so underpowered compared to modern day weapons. It also doesn't help that GW previous tactics of "just making up" doesn't work anymore. I mean, Depleted Deuterium Cores on the Bolters? You can't deplete Hydrogen. Making weapons .75 caliber weapons? We have those, and in great number (40mm grenade launchers have been around for a long time), so they aren't as big as they were.
Perhaps GW should just provide comparisons as well as a simple "so the AdMech just found a bunch of STCs and ancient weapons on planet X" cop-out. it would solve a lot of problems.
Brother Coa wrote:And swords in 40k do make sense.
Lots of melee combat is one example.
Well, we agree on something. Hell in modern warfare melee is not uncommon, but we use knives and appendages rather than swords
This. In modern day warfare, if you're in close combat, you've either done something wrong or you're part of an infiltration unit/squad/shenanigans.
It does make a bit more sense in WH40k, where, because battles are fought on a planetary scale rather than in a city or building, there is more open room. Then again, the problem with that is the fact that combat turns to extremely out-dated tactics that haven't been used since WW1, and provokes imagery of the Civil War rather than anything else. An actual modern day force, in the open, and provided with cover, would never advance, at all.
King Pariah wrote:
I think you miss out on what makes metal storm actually a good weapon system. I mean several nations are already purchasing a utilizing it IRL. It's fast and accurate. On the battlefield, those who are accurate tend to win. If all involved are accurate, then those who are faster tend to win. Metal storm provides volleys of high speed accurate rounds to annihilate whatever you need destroyed, you need to intercept missiles? Check. Wipe out a battalion of tanks? Check. Wipe out a convoy? Check. Clear a fortified structure? Check. Are there other ways to pull off these tasks? Yes, but most of those are either more expensive or take longer. And I don't think I should have to say this, but in the field of battle, time means a lot. The longer you have to engage the enemy, the higher your chances become of you being wiped out. I know that if I were facing down a crazy mad horde of orks or CSM, I'd be glad to have even one metal storm (obviously 40k'd out) to lay down some heavy volleys to thin out their ranks in not even seconds.
And i will be more glad to have calm-headed mortar or lascannon crew behind me.
Actually despite all the hype no reasonable army would widely use MS system - as except specialist use - last-ditch point-defence forex- it's not as effective as it looks - read stories 'bout skirmishes in Iraq - and you'll find one thing that is definitely matters despite air/artillery support is called fire discipline. With MS you won't be able to provide reasonable supressing fire (comp. to standart MG). As for many other thing you've said...well,several RPGs/Shmels can take care of them, something like Spike ATSGM also not as expensive as one can think.
Ironically, early MGs/mitrailleuses were deemed to be ineffective due to exactly by same reasons that can be applied to MS(which ,simple put, is most primitive mitrailleuse redone with modern technology) - mostly you've spent ammo to overkill several enemies while enemies outside of firing sector are unaffected, flaw that usual fragmentation artillery/mortar shells tend to not have.
So (IMHO of course) what definitely would be great addition to IG and even SM armoury is if some adventurous AM replicate and improve long-lost technology of thermobaric warheads for man-portable missile launchers. Though sadly these will work only on habitable planets, but anything less protected than SM powerarmor will be easy meat for them. Though i'm not so sure that PA will be adequate protection.
There is a HUGE difference between skirmishes and scales of battles that happen in 40k. Skirmish? I almost totally agree that using Metal Storm isn't that great of an idea. Battles that make Stalingrad and Kursk look like kids playing soldiers? Yeah, I don't think I'd mind having something that can go ahead and mow down rank after rank, column after column of tanks, infantry, and incoming fire.
I was in the army btw, and I completely agree that discipline takes place first. a good weapon in an undisciplined person's hands might as well be a rock to throw more often than not. I'm just saying that in the scale of battle that IG tend to get thrown into, this would probably be a tremendous weapon to have.
@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.
Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.
McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.
Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.
McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.
Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.
Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...
Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.
McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.
Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.
Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...
Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.
Considering they were built to do it i'd say it's a good idea...
Do you think they can hit bolt rounds mid flight?
McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.
Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.
Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...
Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.
The IoM should use reactive armor on their tanks...
Anyway, yeah, against multiple missiles/stripping extra armor layers it would be fantastic, which is what I'm fairly certain it was designed for. Also, does the IoM use SAMs? Or just giant lasers against airborne targets?
McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.
Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.
Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...
Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.
The IoM should use reactive armor on their tanks...
Anyway, yeah, against multiple missiles/stripping extra armor layers it would be fantastic, which is what I'm fairly certain it was designed for. Also, does the IoM use SAMs? Or just giant lasers against airborne targets?
They get a chimera chassis.
They strap 2 autocannon and an advanced auspex on.
They call it the hydra!
McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.
Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.
Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...
Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.
The IoM should use reactive armor on their tanks...
Anyway, yeah, against multiple missiles/stripping extra armor layers it would be fantastic, which is what I'm fairly certain it was designed for. Also, does the IoM use SAMs? Or just giant lasers against airborne targets?
They get a chimera chassis.
They strap 2 autocannon and an advanced auspex on.
They call it the hydra!
Dang, I totally forgot about that! That answers my question.
McNinja wrote:It is indeed a massive cop-out, but therein lies the problem: the WH40k universe is built on the concept of turning up to "11." It can't be at "11" if current day tech beats it out by a longshot, no matter how well GW covers their ass with BS cop-outs. Comparatively, the tech need to be more powerful than ours. Also, GW needs to define their tech more. I haven't read any of the books, but it seems that there isn't a lot of demonstrations against their own tech. We need to know A) how 40k materials compare to current day materials (is 1inch of Adamantium equal to six inches of titanium? ten inches?) and B) how the various weapons of 40K react to those materials. Gauss weapons are the most fearsome because they have a very overarching effect on all materials, but how about the others? Aside form Eldar D-weapons, of course.
The reason we know how effective our weapons are is because we have something to compare them against. There are no standards of comparison in the 40k universe, which is why it seems so underpowered compared to modern day weapons. It also doesn't help that GW previous tactics of "just making up" doesn't work anymore. I mean, Depleted Deuterium Cores on the Bolters? You can't deplete Hydrogen. Making weapons .75 caliber weapons? We have those, and in great number (40mm grenade launchers have been around for a long time), so they aren't as big as they were.
Why do we need to know though? I don't think it's BS as it is a fictional universe after all. Maybe they should advance it, but the foundations were laid back in the 80's and they can't introduce a lot of new weapons because we're at the end of the timeline already and everything now is filler, which to me, is one of the problems I had with the Dreadknight. Perhaps if we get to 41k they will add new stuff?
One of the problems here is that there just isn't GW there is Black Library and other wings and all give different information on occasion, which is poor also.
A lot of the stuff they have in the 40k Universe is maxed at 11, the Shokk Attak Gun, Cyclonic Torpedoes, Exterminatus, I see what you are saying but a lot of what we have now could be compared to something in the 40k Universe, even if it is not that similar or effective in our eyes, It's just something we'll never know. Not everyone is interested in the capability of the Armour as long as we know that it can stop bullets the size of a Guinea Pig, isn't that whats important?
Honestly though I am not that aware of what military advancements we have made, but if it makes loud noises and kills stuff it is cool
McNinja wrote:Perhaps GW should just provide comparisons as well as a simple "so the AdMech just found a bunch of STCs and ancient weapons on planet X" cop-out. it would solve a lot of problems.
But they haven't a Bolt Gun, Lascannon or anything else to compare too. All we have is a weapon from today and an imaginary weapon from a fictional universe. It would be cool I suppose, but then how would they go about predicting the data? Maybe they should use any profit garnered from Finecast into military development
King Pariah wrote:I some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say
XM-109
This gun...
Must... obtain... unlimited power... handcanon...
*violent twitching*
\
What civilian needs a sniper rifle that powerful? I'd take a 75$ surplus Mosin-Nagant over that any day...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
McNinja wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:
McNinja wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Fluff-wise, GW needs to update their fluff in the same way Shadowrun did when the internet was invented. It'll be only a few years before people will look at WH40k and say "we have better tech than that today, and this is supposed to be 40,000 years in the future?" Ok, maybe longer than few years, but you see what I mean.
NIcely put
^ Seconded
But the whole dealio with 40k is that this is true, that the inventions up until the Age of Strife were or are possibly greater than anything created after Unification hence the importance and active search for STCs etc. So in a way GW have got their asses covered by saying that if there are better things now then in 40k, it's because it was lost and hasn't been discovered again.
From The Titan Legions (by Rick Priestley, excerpted from WD 178)
The planet soon became a battleground where rival warlords fought over the ruins of a once great civilisation. All of Earth's ancient knowledge was lost and its cities destroyed
When the Cult Mechanicus restored order to Mars its leaders looked to Earth and beyond, hoping to find remnants of human knowledge on other worlds. The Tech- Priests were appalled at the destruction on Earth and judged there was nothing worth saving.
Bit of a cop - out admittedly
It is indeed a massive cop-out, but therein lies the problem: the WH40k universe is built on the concept of turning up to "11." It can't be at "11" if current day tech beats it out by a longshot, no matter how well GW covers their ass with BS cop-outs. Comparatively, the tech need to be more powerful than ours. Also, GW needs to define their tech more. I haven't read any of the books, but it seems that there isn't a lot of demonstrations against their own tech. We need to know A) how 40k materials compare to current day materials (is 1inch of Adamantium equal to six inches of titanium? ten inches?) and B) how the various weapons of 40K react to those materials. Gauss weapons are the most fearsome because they have a very overarching effect on all materials, but how about the others? Aside form Eldar D-weapons, of course.
The reason we know how effective our weapons are is because we have something to compare them against. There are no standards of comparison in the 40k universe, which is why it seems so underpowered compared to modern day weapons. It also doesn't help that GW previous tactics of "just making up" doesn't work anymore. I mean, Depleted Deuterium Cores on the Bolters? You can't deplete Hydrogen. Making weapons .75 caliber weapons? We have those, and in great number (40mm grenade launchers have been around for a long time), so they aren't as big as they were.
Perhaps GW should just provide comparisons as well as a simple "so the AdMech just found a bunch of STCs and ancient weapons on planet X" cop-out. it would solve a lot of problems.
In terms of 40k tech, I think its a bit of step forward and backward. The Imperium is so vast that we know not all planets have the same tech level. We also know, (If you read Ravenor Rogue) that even with the sheer amount of personell that adminstrate the imperium on a daily basis, not all information on a single dossier is actually read by the civil servants. So I guess you could say that GW has an excuse written into their fluff for this stuff.
Well... considering how crappy the weapons the imperium use are, they could learn a thing or two about ours. I mean seriously? forgetting to put sights on weapons for SPACE MARINES? jesus... Its just stupid how they could forget such basic upgrades to weapons. I mean their guns still jam thats awful, and also are there any statistics for Imperiums weapons? im sure our sniper rifles are greater than theirs... missing at point blank range is a feat my friends. Ask the space marine scouts.
The Son Of Russ wrote:Well... considering how crappy the weapons the imperium use are, they could learn a thing or two about ours. I mean seriously? forgetting to put sights on weapons for SPACE MARINES? jesus... Its just stupid how they could forget such basic upgrades to weapons. I mean their guns still jam thats awful, and also are there any statistics for Imperiums weapons? im sure our sniper rifles are greater than theirs... missing at point blank range is a feat my friends. Ask the space marine scouts.
Bolters don't need sights. The space marines have targeting implants. Besides, isn't there a ridge like thing above the bolter? I always thought that acted as a sight.
And guns will always jam. You can lower the chance of it jamming through good engineering, but it will jam. Especially on the battlefield.
King Pariah wrote:I some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say
XM-109
This gun...
Must... obtain... unlimited power... handcanon...
*violent twitching*
\
What civilian needs a sniper rifle that powerful? I'd take a 75$ surplus Mosin-Nagant over that any day...
Dude its a MGL, not a sniper rifle. The one with the bloke holding the damned thing is the sniper rifle
Yeah, that's an antimateriel rifle in the photo. Which is basically a sniper rifle.
How dare you call it a rifle! lol
But no, it really actually isn't called a rifle but rather an Objective Sniper Weapon or OSW. Is the barrel rifled? Yes. Does it operate like a sniper rifle? Yes. Does firing 25mm grenades up to 2.2 (yeah finally found it's max range) miles accurately make it have a class of its own? Apparently.
King Pariah wrote:
But no, it really actually isn't called a rifle but rather an Objective Sniper Weapon or OSW. Is the barrel rifled? Yes. Does it operate like a sniper rifle? Yes. Does firing 25mm grenades up to 2.2 (yeah finally found it's max range) miles accurately make it have a class of its own? Apparently.
So... Is it a boltgun sniper (a boltgun with much greater range but much slower rate of fire) or what?
King Pariah wrote:
But no, it really actually isn't called a rifle but rather an Objective Sniper Weapon or OSW. Is the barrel rifled? Yes. Does it operate like a sniper rifle? Yes. Does firing 25mm grenades up to 2.2 (yeah finally found it's max range) miles accurately make it have a class of its own? Apparently.
So... Is it a boltgun sniper (a boltgun with much greater range but much slower rate of fire) or what?
Guess you could call it that though it can also take out armor (Though it's better if the armor happens to be within 1.5 miles), make short work of small structures/rooms and whoever happens to be inside. It all depends on what the round you fire is whether it be HE, AP, Air Fragmentation, etc.
King Pariah wrote:
Guess you could call it that though it can also take out armor (Though it's better if the armor happens to be within 1.5 miles), make short work of small structures/rooms and whoever happens to be inside. It all depends on what the round you fire is whether it be HE, AP, Air Fragmentation, etc.
Just like boltgun special ammo. And a boltgun ammo that rolls 2D6 for armour penetration would be neat (and OP like hell) .
Just thinking that the Imperium would definitely mount a varient of a 40k'd Metal Storm on a titan. Then it could fire a million room sized projectiles a minute and simply, casually bring about the destruction of entire armies.
My question of the whole idea of the "Metal Storm" Is why in gods name would the Imperium make the hard task of supplying ammunition to every little tiny pocket of the galaxy even more difficult when they have weapons that can be recharged by fire? Sunlight? Basic Heat?
King Pariah wrote:
Guess you could call it that though it can also take out armor (Though it's better if the armor happens to be within 1.5 miles), make short work of small structures/rooms and whoever happens to be inside. It all depends on what the round you fire is whether it be HE, AP, Air Fragmentation, etc.
Just like boltgun special ammo. And a boltgun ammo that rolls 2D6 for armour penetration would be neat (and OP like hell) .
Turbo-Penetrator rounds used to roll 3d6 for armor pen. I think it was changed for the newest codices, though.
Rabtorian wrote:Just thinking that the Imperium would definitely mount a varient of a 40k'd Metal Storm on a titan. Then it could fire a million room sized projectiles a minute and simply, casually bring about the destruction of entire armies.
The longest range confirmed kill was scored by a Marine Pvt Hancock with an .50 M2 Browning at 2.5 mikles I believe with a Manportable weapon. otherwise it'd be an ICBM
King Pariah wrote:
Guess you could call it that though it can also take out armor (Though it's better if the armor happens to be within 1.5 miles), make short work of small structures/rooms and whoever happens to be inside. It all depends on what the round you fire is whether it be HE, AP, Air Fragmentation, etc.
Just like boltgun special ammo. And a boltgun ammo that rolls 2D6 for armour penetration would be neat (and OP like hell) .
Turbo-Penetrator rounds used to roll 3d6 for armor pen. I think it was changed for the newest codices, though.
Bobthehero wrote:2.2 miles is still about 1.6x longer than 2.5 km.
I know, I was just trying to stop flak from flying my way if anyone did research and found out that my memory had everestimated the range of the XM-109
The Metal Storm thing is already in use by the Imperium, you just tend to find them mounted on starships as point-defense turrets. They use them to destroy incoming torpedoes and enemy assault craft.
None of those sniper rifles hold a candle to an Exitus Rifle carried by the Vindicare (though it's obvious that these real-world rifles are the inspiration thereof). The MP lascannon is a sniper rifle used to destroy tanks, or anything smaller. MP stands for Man-Portable. RL snipers work in teams, too. One man with the rifle, another man to act as his spotter and identify targets, provide range-to-target and angle-to-target. Without a spotter, a sniper's view through his scope does not offer a wide enough view-angle to quickly acquire the next target. With a spotter using binoculars, he's told where to point the rifle next, and doesn't need to pull away from the scope.
Drones already exist and are in use in the Imperium. Gun-skulls are probably the most famous of such devices. They're also smaller and harder to target than a UAV, too, being only the size of a human head.
Any modern assault rifle is an auto-gun. No real substantive difference in their function or operation. Also inferior to a las-gun because of their need to carry physical ammunition in a staggering variety of calibers. Further inferior because you can't reload them by plugging the magazine into a wall-socket, or a campfire.
Almost anything else has its own analog in the Imperium's arsenal. Grenades, launchers, missiles, anti-missile defense systems... we're also not given a lot of specifics on various armaments in the Imperium as to their ECM/ECCM capabilities. I know the US Army was testing, some years back, a backpack device that generated a cone of electro-magnetic signals in an upward cone above the platoon carrying it, intended to cause incoming mortar rounds to detonate in the air, rather than the ground. It may be possible that, in the 41st millennium, mortar rounds are proof against such devices, making such a tool useless.
The technology we have today that might be of interest to the AdMech probably lies in our video imaging and pic-capture devices. Plasma screens, LCD monitors, digital cameras, and so forth and so on. All of the viewscreens in the Imperium seem to be based on the green-and-black CRTs of the early 1980s.
Psienesis wrote:intended to cause incoming mortar rounds to detonate in the air, rather than the ground. It may be possible that, in the 41st millennium, mortar rounds are proof against such devices, making such a tool useless.
Most mortars/artillery rounds already detonate in the air. It actually does more damage that way.
Alexzandvar wrote:My question of the whole idea of the "Metal Storm" Is why in gods name would the Imperium make the hard task of supplying ammunition to every little tiny pocket of the galaxy even more difficult when they have weapons that can be recharged by fire? Sunlight? Basic Heat?
Mortars, heavy bolters, flamers, plasma guns, bolt pistols, all tank mounted weapons and missile launchers.
These do not recharge by sunlight or heat.
The Imperium already ships solid slug ammo for these weapons, if the metal storm fired HB rounds then you wouldn't even need to add a new type of ammo. We aren't suggesting giving it to every single soldier in the Guard but as a viable alternative to a heavy weapons team or even something that combat engineers set up to aid in a defense/large assault...
xxmatt85 wrote:This is another one of mine what if scenario's. Okay, what if a cache of 21st century weapons were found deep under ground on Terra, what will be the Imperiams/Mechanicus reaction to this discovery of ancient technology?
GENIUS! 
You gotta remember that there is a 12 years difference between what the military has and what the public knows it has. I'm sure that in a decade you'll be hearing about a lovely weapon we use quite often called metal storm. sorta like the Blackbird, but that was like a 30 year gap there.
) and the supersonic spear effect (which I also forgot 
up" doesn't work anymore. I mean, Depleted Deuterium Cores on the Bolters? You can't deplete Hydrogen. Making weapons .75 caliber weapons? We have those, and in great number (40mm grenade launchers have been around for a long time), so they aren't as big as they were.
