Dumah12 wrote:I actually use the necrons deathstar against my friend who spams th/ss and its very effective at killing everything. unfortunately the fact they foot slaug across the field makes it difficult also 115 points to throw them in a ghost ark is a little to much. Also if you wanna see tyranids run in fear from an assault try it out. But costing half your army does make it hurt when one dies

King Pariah wrote:

Dumah12 wrote:I actually use the necrons deathstar against my friend who spams th/ss and its very effective at killing everything. unfortunately the fact they foot slaug across the field makes it difficult also 115 points to throw them in a ghost ark is a little to much. Also if you wanna see tyranids run in fear from an assault try it out. But costing half your army does make it hurt when one dies

I agree that it's a tremendous risk as a significant portion of your points are going to be dedicated to this unit which makes me believe that it's perhaps best used in Apoc

Tarkand wrote:That's 885... you have no Ress Orb, no Inv Save (making you vulnerable to shooting) and so forth.

A squad of 10 paladin which charge this with Hammerhand will score 18 hits and 9wounds... meaning you'll have all of 1 lychguard left. I've accounted for the MSS'd paladin not attacking, but a MSS'd pld will not kill anything, merely put some wound on the models.

So not a good move at all,

On the other hand... for 805 points, you get:

Necron Overlord with Warscythe, Ress Orb, Sempiral Weave, Phase Shifter and Mind Shackle Scarab.

Royal Court - 5 Lord, ALL with Warscythe, Weave, Shifter and MSS.

Entire squad is 2+ and 3++ with 4+ Reanimation protocol. Entire squad is power weapon and S7.

And more importantly, weither they assault or get assaulted, you have to deal with 6 MSS scarab - the same squad of paladin that charge them would on average only score 6 wound and only kill 2 Lords (and 1 of them will come back anyway) and they would lose combat resolution (in fact, they lose resolution to the MSS shackle result before the necron even strike!)!

And that's 80 point less while also being vastly more resistant to shooting (3++ save), Horde attack (2+ sv) and making any non-pld elite unit kill itself before it does any real damage.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:I find that the survivability and damage output are inversely corrilated in the case of sword and shield LGs vs Scyth LG. The damage output of scythe guard is much higher than the other option while the survivability is only marginally better imho. With only str 5 you wound on 3+ on most meq and cant even ID eldar. Where as with the Str 7 (8 if furious charging bc of zandrek) you have the same number of attacks, but on the charge you are even iding meq. And either way with a res lord you still can stand back up on a 4

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Tarkand wrote:That's 885... you have no Ress Orb, no Inv Save (making you vulnerable to shooting) and so forth.

A squad of 10 paladin which charge this with Hammerhand will score 18 hits and 9wounds... meaning you'll have all of 1 lychguard left. I've accounted for the MSS'd paladin not attacking, but a MSS'd pld will not kill anything, merely put some wound on the models.

So not a good move at all,

Im confused how 30 attacks with statistical hits of 1/2 equals 18 let alone the 28 attacks that the squad will get if not less due to two necron models having mss's. But either way, the only way the necron deathstar can legitimately hope to grind down the paladins is with that initial charge at str 8 to instagib some of them. So either way, in this match up who ever gets the charge wins.

Archibald_ Buggerfingers wrote:Crons do not do deathstars, at all.

The closest you'll get to a workable 'deathstar' is a squad of 6 Wraiths (with wound allocation from coils/casters) and a destroyer lord with M. scarabs.

azazel the cat wrote:2x Lord w/ Warscythe, Sempiternal Weave, Rez Ob, MSS & Phase Shifter
2x Harbinger of Eternity w/ Chronometron
5x Lychguard w/ Hyperphase Swords & Dispersion Shields

I believe this unit is only 575 points... very reasonable for a Death Star unit. The unit gets a 3+/4++/4+ RP, two Mindshackle Scarabs and 7 of the 9 have power weapons, and very phase you get two re-rolls. They can even take a Night Scythe if you want.


EDIT: Math!

Tarkand wrote:That's 885... you have no Ress Orb, no Inv Save (making you vulnerable to shooting) and so forth.

A squad of 10 paladin which charge this with Hammerhand will score 18 hits and 9wounds... meaning you'll have all of 1 lychguard left. I've accounted for the MSS'd paladin not attacking, but a MSS'd pld will not kill anything, merely put some wound on the models.

So not a good move at all,


On the other hand... for 805 points, you get:

Necron Overlord with Warscythe, Ress Orb, Sempiral Weave, Phase Shifter and Mind Shackle Scarab.

Royal Court - 5 Lord, ALL with Warscythe, Weave, Shifter and MSS.

Entire squad is 2+ and 3++ with 4+ Reanimation protocol. Entire squad is power weapon and S7.

And more importantly, weither they assault or get assaulted, you have to deal with 6 MSS scarab - the same squad of paladin that charge them would on average only score 6 wound and only kill 2 Lords (and 1 of them will come back anyway) and they would lose combat resolution (in fact, they lose resolution to the MSS shackle result before the necron even strike!)!

And that's 80 point less while also being vastly more resistant to shooting (3++ save), Horde attack (2+ sv) and making any non-pld elite unit kill itself before it does any real damage.

Sasori wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:2x Lord w/ Warscythe, Sempiternal Weave, Rez Ob, MSS & Phase Shifter
2x Harbinger of Eternity w/ Chronometron
5x Lychguard w/ Hyperphase Swords & Dispersion Shields

I believe this unit is only 575 points... very reasonable for a Death Star unit. The unit gets a 3+/4++/4+ RP, two Mindshackle Scarabs and 7 of the 9 have power weapons, and very phase you get two re-rolls. They can even take a Night Scythe if you want.


EDIT: Math!

How are you sticking 4 court members with the Lychguard?

Red Corsair wrote:The shame about this death star is it still gets raped by weaken resolve or jaws or the doom of ma'lantai or............ putting so many delicious eggs in one basket is so risky..... but those eggs are wonderful delicious Faberge' eggs lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It must be tested!!!!

Adding a Nightsythe does provide some protection to all of those - JAWS, Weaken Resolve and Doom.

Jaon wrote:Too bad my paladins are going to kite and spray them with 16 Psycannons and how ever many storm bolter shots.

Thats if I was ever insane enough to take a 10 man Paladin Deathstar.

Razorspirit wrote:Wait... furious charge grants +1 to S and I? I thought it was to WS and I. Have I misread?

Unit1126PLL wrote:don't forget in my deathstar the cryptek re-roll on one of the saves / reanimation protocols rolls.

EDIT: Also, good luck kiting them - they have the same assault range as a unit in a Land Raider.

EDIT2: Also, warscythes with Furious Charge on Str 5 models = very very dead paladins.

Amaya wrote:There are no viable Deathstars in the game outside of Draigo, a Librarian, and 4 Paladins in a LR/Stormraven.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Amaya wrote:There are no viable Deathstars in the game outside of Draigo, a Librarian, and 4 Paladins in a LR/Stormraven.

Deathstar - I don't think it means what you think it means.

Either that or you're wrong, I run a Black Templars deathstar that has beaten that "deathstar" on more than one occasion.

King Pariah wrote:Yeah yeah yeah, and then we have mindshackle scarabs... have fun with that sucka

Unit1126PLL wrote:Nope. Command squad, Marshal with storm shield and lightning claw, terminator honors, etc. Master of Sanctity with Crozius and terminator honors. Three techmarines with stormshields, thunder hammers, terminator honors, and servo-harnesses. Command squad has powerfists where possible (four of them), as well as the kit such as apothecary, standard bearer with chapter banner, and company champion.

The techmarines by themselves put out 18 instant-death, armor-save ignoring attacks with preferred enemy if they get to swing on the charge, and draigo plus librarian plus four paladins is 13? attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s - so if they exclusively attack the techmarines, they do ~7 wounds, of which all but ~2 are saved. EDIT3: Also the IC rules for CQB might mean those two saves are both failed on the same model, depending on how the Pallies allocate their attacks.

Unless the squad saves a power for activating their force weapons instead of Hammerhand, then it's wounding on 3s so they only do ~5 wounds of which all but ~2 are saved, meaning at least one techmarine gets to swing. Mastery level of the librarian probably means they can save the power without this penalty.

The odds change dramatically if Draigo + friends put any wounds on the command squad - if I am tactical with my Techmarines, draigo and the librarian can't attack them.

EDIT: provided one techmarine lives to swing at Pallie squad:

Six swings with preferred enemy hitting on fours is 4.5 hits. Wounding on 2s is ~4 wounds. With swords, that's 2 dead paladins (so if the enemy killed two techmarines, combat is tied). With halberds, it's closer to 3 dead paladins.

Don't forget also that the command squad has powerfists and lightning claws, just to bend the combat result in its favor.

EDIT2: They all ride in a Godhammer Land Raider, or they steal one of the initiate squads' Crusaders if really necessary.

Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Rephistorch wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Didn't know they had storm shields available, sorry.

Again, how much does all of that cost? I honestly don't know. Also, yes, Paladins do have 3 attacks a piece, because any commander worth his salt is brining a brotherhood banner with each squad. This wargear grants +1 attack to every member of the unit, and the psychic test to activate force swords is passed automatically.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Didn't know they had storm shields available, sorry.

Again, how much does all of that cost? I honestly don't know. Also, yes, Paladins do have 3 attacks a piece, because any commander worth his salt is brining a brotherhood banner with each squad. This wargear grants +1 attack to every member of the unit, and the psychic test to activate force swords is passed automatically.

I thought the BHB was once-only? My bad.

And it costs roughly 940 points. Like I said above, no one said that Paladins were the best deathstar with equal points - just the best deathstar.

Rephistorch wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Didn't know they had storm shields available, sorry.

Again, how much does all of that cost? I honestly don't know. Also, yes, Paladins do have 3 attacks a piece, because any commander worth his salt is brining a brotherhood banner with each squad. This wargear grants +1 attack to every member of the unit, and the psychic test to activate force swords is passed automatically.

I thought the BHB was once-only? My bad.

And it costs roughly 940 points. Like I said above, no one said that Paladins were the best deathstar with equal points - just the best deathstar.

Well, Hell, if points aren't an issue, try this one out:

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Librarian - Mastery Level 3 w/ hammerhand, might of titan, and quicksilver + warding stave
3x Techmarine - All with Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke grenades, and each with a different nemesis weapon: halberd, sword, and stave
10x Paladins - Psybolt ammo, 4x PsyCannons, 2x Halberds, 2x Force Swords, 2x Daemon Hammers, 2x Falchions, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Brotherhood Banner + an Apothecary just because
Of course, all of these Paladins are equipped in such a way as to be unique.

After casting hammerhand 6 times, I won't even need my force weapons to ID most things, and if a monstrous creature wanders into my maw, it shall be consumed in a torrent of hellfire.

Quick facts:
You will NEVER get bonus attacks for assaulting.
You will FREQUENTLY be forced to attack yourself, be leadership 2, get only 1 attack per model, be reduced to initiative 1, or I will get rerolls to hit against your unit
I will FREQUENTLY have 10 S, 10 I, and if I really feel like it, cause instant death to anything not already qualifying for such.
If you count closing in on each other before the close combat, I will get 4 Psycannon shots, and a bunch of S5 stormbolter shots each turn
You will be -1 T
I will get 62 Attacks on the charge, or 47 in response to your charge
I have feel no pain
Cost: 1700 Points Even
I was nice and didn't mastercraft EVERYTHING

Can anyone hope to survive such an onslaught?

Any takers?

Unit1126PLL wrote:

THERE YOU GO! Now just add a troop and run it!

Rephistorch wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

THERE YOU GO! Now just add a troop and run it!

Indeed. I may just run this list soon... Perhaps slightly modified so as to fit in 1 or 2 land raiders. Will probably suck against most lists, but will absolutely disintegrate any squads unfortunate enough to get too close.

Rephistorch wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:How much does this squad cost? Also, it's not a good idea to run with less than 5 paladins, and you always take a brotherhood banner. The paladins in the squad can lay down at least 3 attacks a piece, assuming that YOU charge. Force weapons ensure that you get insta-jacked (not that it matters in this case), and it would only take about 2-3 attacks per techmarine to make sure that they go down without a problem.

More than Draigo's squad, which is why it's better.

Fair enough, the poster above specified four paladins.

Paladins are 2 attacks base, so no they don't get 3 attacks unless you're silly enough to buy them falchions.

Force weapons do ensure that, and it does matter because BT techmarines have two wounds.

And it would take more attacks than that - 3 attacks = two hits, two wounds, and probably two saves thanks to the storm shields.

Storm shields triple the number of wounds you must inflict to kill me.

Didn't know they had storm shields available, sorry.

Again, how much does all of that cost? I honestly don't know. Also, yes, Paladins do have 3 attacks a piece, because any commander worth his salt is brining a brotherhood banner with each squad. This wargear grants +1 attack to every member of the unit, and the psychic test to activate force swords is passed automatically.

I thought the BHB was once-only? My bad.

And it costs roughly 940 points. Like I said above, no one said that Paladins were the best deathstar with equal points - just the best deathstar.

Well, Hell, if points aren't an issue, try this one out:

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Librarian - Mastery Level 3 w/ hammerhand, might of titan, and quicksilver + warding stave
3x Techmarine - All with Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke grenades, and each with a different nemesis weapon: halberd, sword, and stave
10x Paladins - Psybolt ammo, 4x PsyCannons, 2x Halberds, 2x Force Swords, 2x Daemon Hammers, 2x Falchions, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Brotherhood Banner + an Apothecary just because
Of course, all of these Paladins are equipped in such a way as to be unique.

After casting hammerhand 6 times, I won't even need my force weapons to ID most things, and if a monstrous creature wanders into my maw, it shall be consumed in a torrent of hellfire.

Quick facts:
You will NEVER get bonus attacks for assaulting.
You will FREQUENTLY be forced to attack yourself, be leadership 2, get only 1 attack per model, be reduced to initiative 1, or I will get rerolls to hit against your unit
I will FREQUENTLY have 10 S, 10 I, and if I really feel like it, cause instant death to anything not already qualifying for such.
If you count closing in on each other before the close combat, I will get 4 Psycannon shots, and a bunch of S5 stormbolter shots each turn
You will be -1 T
I will get 62 Attacks on the charge, or 47 in response to your charge
I have feel no pain
Cost: 1700 Points Even
I was nice and didn't mastercraft EVERYTHING

Can anyone hope to survive such an onslaught?

Any takers?

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:
Well, Hell, if points aren't an issue, try this one out:

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Librarian - Mastery Level 3 w/ hammerhand, might of titan, and quicksilver + warding stave
3x Techmarine - All with Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke grenades, and each with a different nemesis weapon: halberd, sword, and stave
10x Paladins - Psybolt ammo, 4x PsyCannons, 2x Halberds, 2x Force Swords, 2x Daemon Hammers, 2x Falchions, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Brotherhood Banner + an Apothecary just because
Of course, all of these Paladins are equipped in such a way as to be unique.

After casting hammerhand 6 times, I won't even need my force weapons to ID most things, and if a monstrous creature wanders into my maw, it shall be consumed in a torrent of hellfire.

Quick facts:
You will NEVER get bonus attacks for assaulting.
You will FREQUENTLY be forced to attack yourself, be leadership 2, get only 1 attack per model, be reduced to initiative 1, or I will get rerolls to hit against your unit
I will FREQUENTLY have 10 S, 10 I, and if I really feel like it, cause instant death to anything not already qualifying for such.
If you count closing in on each other before the close combat, I will get 4 Psycannon shots, and a bunch of S5 stormbolter shots each turn
You will be -1 T
I will get 62 Attacks on the charge, or 47 in response to your charge
I have feel no pain
Cost: 1700 Points Even
I was nice and didn't mastercraft EVERYTHING

Can anyone hope to survive such an onslaught?

Any takers?

Just for funsies, a fully geeked Royal Court with two fully geeked Overlords would probably bitch pwn that unit.

An entire unit of 2+/3++/RP 4+ with 7 MSS and 7 T-Labs should kill anything in the game, assuming we all magically show up in CC. 3 to 4 of the Paladins attacking their own units and another 2 to 3 of them getting sucked in by the T-Labs will certainly work to the Cronies favour.

Rephistorch wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Rephistorch wrote:
Well, Hell, if points aren't an issue, try this one out:

Lord Kaldor Draigo
Librarian - Mastery Level 3 w/ hammerhand, might of titan, and quicksilver + warding stave
3x Techmarine - All with Blind Grenades, Rad Grenades, Psychotroke grenades, and each with a different nemesis weapon: halberd, sword, and stave
10x Paladins - Psybolt ammo, 4x PsyCannons, 2x Halberds, 2x Force Swords, 2x Daemon Hammers, 2x Falchions, 1x Warding Stave, 1x Brotherhood Banner + an Apothecary just because
Of course, all of these Paladins are equipped in such a way as to be unique.

After casting hammerhand 6 times, I won't even need my force weapons to ID most things, and if a monstrous creature wanders into my maw, it shall be consumed in a torrent of hellfire.

Quick facts:
You will NEVER get bonus attacks for assaulting.
You will FREQUENTLY be forced to attack yourself, be leadership 2, get only 1 attack per model, be reduced to initiative 1, or I will get rerolls to hit against your unit
I will FREQUENTLY have 10 S, 10 I, and if I really feel like it, cause instant death to anything not already qualifying for such.
If you count closing in on each other before the close combat, I will get 4 Psycannon shots, and a bunch of S5 stormbolter shots each turn
You will be -1 T
I will get 62 Attacks on the charge, or 47 in response to your charge
I have feel no pain
Cost: 1700 Points Even
I was nice and didn't mastercraft EVERYTHING

Can anyone hope to survive such an onslaught?

Any takers?

Just for funsies, a fully geeked Royal Court with two fully geeked Overlords would probably bitch pwn that unit.

An entire unit of 2+/3++/RP 4+ with 7 MSS and 7 T-Labs should kill anything in the game, assuming we all magically show up in CC. 3 to 4 of the Paladins attacking their own units and another 2 to 3 of them getting sucked in by the T-Labs will certainly work to the Cronies favour.

Dammit, I think I just got nerd-sniped.

We'll assume I'm charging, and then you're charging separately.

Since I'm fighting against a squad of units who can cause my own troops to hit each other, I only have to boost my strength to 8, and I do not choose to strike at initiative 10.
Well, with some careful positioning, and the random nature of the MSS, you could theoretically get away with much less, but let's just say 3 for this argument. 3 guys get d3 attacks against their own mates, avg of 6. The likelihood of having a halberd or draigo selected for mindshackling is relatively low at ~ 11.7% each, but this also relies on some positioning, so we'll give you 1 halberd.

I 6:
1 halberd strikes with 2 attacks against my own troops, 4's to hit, 2's to wound. Probably 1 wound, allocated to any one of my warding staves (2+ invul), which is saved.

GK Charging:
I 6:
2 halberds strike against you with 4 attacks each, 3 to hit, 2 to wound, roughly 4+4/9 ID causing wounds (double toughness [Strength 8 vs Toughness 3 and 4 {rad grenades}])
My guess is that you'll remove 4 crypteks (assuming you took them), just to get rid of them.
I 5:
Draigo strikes with 6 attacks 3 to hit, 2 to wound, 3+1/3 ID wounds
probably Another cryptek (none left), plus 3, 3+ saves on lords, one lord dies.
I 4:
2 normal-ish guys strike with 2d3 attacks on my own guys, 4 on average, 4 to hit, 2 to wound, probably 2 wounds, both allocated separately on two different warding staves (2++) (probably saved)
2 normal-ish guys strike with 4 attacks each, 4+4/9 ID wounds (see above)
1.5 lords die
2 falchions strike with 5 attacks each, 3 to hit, 2 to wound 3.5 lords take a wound, 2 overlords
1 additional lord dies, 1 overlord probably dies, but we'll calculate at 1+1/3 overlords remaining, for full mathhammer.
2 techmarines strike with 3 attacks each, 3 to hit, 2 to wound, 3+1/3 wounds, 2 more wounds on overlords, 1+1/3 on your lords
another half lord dies, and you are left with a 66% chance of having 1 overlord, but we'll assume he made his save.

I 2:
1 lord and 1 overlord are left. We'll assume that each is in base with a independent character (the only thing that they can use the labyrinths against anyway!)
Draigo passes on a 4-, and he is likely safe, but possibly dead.
Techmarine dies.

I 1:
2 remaining techmarines get 2 S8 servo attacks a piece, resulting in 2+2/9 ID wounds
2 daemon hammer guys get 4 attacks a piece, resulting in 4+4/9 ID wounds
a total of 6+2/3 attacks, 3+1/3 on each remaining model resulting in both of your remaining models to die

At this point, I forgot to roll for the librarian's attacks earlier, but it is irrelevant, as your unit has already been utterly decimated, and you've killed 1 Techmarine, with a possibility of killing Draigo. We're also ignoring Psychotroke grenades which could either have you attacking yourself, striking simultaneously with my Init 1 guys, you getting 1 attack per model, me getting rerolls against your squad, or you being leadership 2.

Yes, half of the necrons will get back up, but way more than half were killed before their initiative step, so they would no longer be a viable fighting force.

I really don't feel like doing the math for you charging, but assuming 1 less attack per model of mine, I'm pretty sure the necrons would still die, horribly. It would probably at least take 2 combat phases though, so they've got that going for them.

Actually, just picture 15 less strikes, since all of my attacks hit/wound the same and cause ID. You would probably have about 2-3 lords & overlords left over at the end of the round of combat, dealing perhaps a wound against the paladins. This result would still probably kill you, as you now have to pass an effective ld 3-4 moral check or be killed in a sweeping advance.

Also, with a decent consolidation roll of at least 3, I could completely block any chances of resurrection.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Good post, I guess with a 1700 point unit such performance should be expected, I had originally looks at the number versus the more popular 800 to 900 Paladin builds.

The charge would favour the crons a bit more then your showing as it would allow optimal placement for MSS on Draigo and the like, although I was also thinking that the T-Labs struck first for some reason and forgot they only worked against IC.

Perhaps rebuilding the cron star with Nemesor and Obyron to take advantage of furious charge so at least the WS is IDing? Also maybe if you could focus the MSS on units that strike at the same initiative+ Draigo to keep the unit from sticking every scattered wound to the 2++?


Yeah you got me, that Pally unit is ridiculous in CC.

bucheonman wrote:Throw out the theoryhammer and mathhammer. Play the list and see what it does.

A guy played a 10 man lychguard squad with sowrds and shields against me, with a lord w/ warscythe and mindshackle. Not the full deathstar but supposedly a nasty squad.

My squad of 2 carnifexes (no talons) and 2 tyranid primes w/ lash whips and boneswords ate the squad up in 2 rounds of combat. 1 fex took 2 wounds and one prime died.

Ruarinator2 wrote:Not too sure the unit you first mentioned is an "awesomesauce" cc unit, but as others have mentioned, a royal court may be better with 3+ invulnerable sv's and 2+ armour sv's and a res orb in their somewhere is not just cheaper but has more durability too. Add in an electro cryptek and you have a very decent "awesomesauce" unit.

Rephistorch wrote:[Well, with some careful positioning, and the random nature of the MSS, you could theoretically get away with much less, but let's just say 3 for this argument. 3 guys get d3 attacks against their own mates, avg of 6.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Ruarinator2 wrote:Not too sure the unit you first mentioned is an "awesomesauce" cc unit, but as others have mentioned, a royal court may be better with 3+ invulnerable sv's and 2+ armour sv's and a res orb in their somewhere is not just cheaper but has more durability too. Add in an electro cryptek and you have a very decent "awesomesauce" unit.

Oh hey Rephistorch, he just reminded me that the cron star would be removing the +1 attack on the charge, and granting some lighting strikes, and possibly keep them from charging in the first place, etc etc. A handful of gear from teks would help out a bit, although I don't think it will be enough.

Iranna wrote:As I'm sure others have stated before me, Necrons and CC are just not a good combination.

A fully decked-out Paladin squad will generally strike at S7 and at a higher I to your Necrons.

20 Paladin attacks, 10 hits, ~ 9 wounds.

4 Draigo attacks, 4 hits (1 re-roll from MC), 4 wounds

2 Librarian attacks, 1 hit, 1 wound.

That equals 15 wounds and without a resurrection orb, demolishes your deathstar. God help you if they get the charge.

Iranna.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Iranna wrote:As I'm sure others have stated before me, Necrons and CC are just not a good combination.

A fully decked-out Paladin squad will generally strike at S7 and at a higher I to your Necrons.

20 Paladin attacks, 10 hits, ~ 9 wounds.

4 Draigo attacks, 4 hits (1 re-roll from MC), 4 wounds

2 Librarian attacks, 1 hit, 1 wound.

That equals 15 wounds and without a resurrection orb, demolishes your deathstar. God help you if they get the charge.

Iranna.

Huh? What happened to the Necron's Saves? And why no Res Orb.

Also the "Necrons and CC are just not a good combination" notion has been summarily disproven by battle reports all over the Internet. Now I'm now saying you can make them world beaters in CC like you can a super Pally death star, but you can certainly make them competitive in CC.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Huh? What happened to the Necron's Saves? And why no Res Orb.

Also the "Necrons and CC are just not a good combination" notion has been summarily disproven by battle reports all over the Internet. Now I'm now saying you can make them world beaters in CC like you can a super Pally death star, but you can certainly make them competitive in CC.

Iranna wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Huh? What happened to the Necron's Saves? And why no Res Orb.

Also the "Necrons and CC are just not a good combination" notion has been summarily disproven by battle reports all over the Internet. Now I'm now saying you can make them world beaters in CC like you can a super Pally death star, but you can certainly make them competitive in CC.

I was replying to the OP's original post. If you want dispersion shields, then you are only S5 as opposed to S7. They get no armour saves as all Paladins have force weapons and they have no Res orb because the OP did not put that in his first post.

It has not been disproved that they are bad in Close Combat, it has been proven that they are resilient in CC. I really don't think that anything with I2 base can be a viable CC deathstar, even with T5 and S7 they just cannot go toe-to-toe with the top CC units. Sure, they can tarpit and whittle at them, but they have very little chance in actually breaking them.

Iranna.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Iranna wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Huh? What happened to the Necron's Saves? And why no Res Orb.

Also the "Necrons and CC are just not a good combination" notion has been summarily disproven by battle reports all over the Internet. Now I'm now saying you can make them world beaters in CC like you can a super Pally death star, but you can certainly make them competitive in CC.

I was replying to the OP's original post. If you want dispersion shields, then you are only S5 as opposed to S7. They get no armour saves as all Paladins have force weapons and they have no Res orb because the OP did not put that in his first post.

It has not been disproved that they are bad in Close Combat, it has been proven that they are resilient in CC. I really don't think that anything with I2 base can be a viable CC deathstar, even with T5 and S7 they just cannot go toe-to-toe with the top CC units. Sure, they can tarpit and whittle at them, but they have very little chance in actually breaking them.

Iranna.

I find this stance curious, as the original 5th edition Deathstar was I 1 - THSS terminators.

Iranna wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Huh? What happened to the Necron's Saves? And why no Res Orb.

Also the "Necrons and CC are just not a good combination" notion has been summarily disproven by battle reports all over the Internet. Now I'm now saying you can make them world beaters in CC like you can a super Pally death star, but you can certainly make them competitive in CC.

I was replying to the OP's original post. If you want dispersion shields, then you are only S5 as opposed to S7. They get no armour saves as all Paladins have force weapons and they have no Res orb because the OP did not put that in his first post.

It has not been disproved that they are bad in Close Combat, it has been proven that they are resilient in CC. I really don't think that anything with I2 base can be a viable CC deathstar, even with T5 and S7 they just cannot go toe-to-toe with the top CC units. Sure, they can tarpit and whittle at them, but they have very little chance in actually breaking them.

Iranna.

The Shrike wrote:I know this is the "My Deathstar's longer than yours...." thread. But it completely gets away from the strength of the Necron codex. To take the predominant theme of Draigowing vs Crons, would it not be better to go with conventional wisdom and just use tarpits like wraiths to hold up the Palastar for a round or two.....and then do it again with another unit of wraiths after the Pallies polish them off? You have mobility to guarantee the charge; you have survivability and wound allocation shenanigans, and you cost 255 points to their say 900-1000! Yes, the Paladins are going to win. However, while their entire army is pretty much stuck in the muck of the wraith conveyor belt; the Necrons are running around with 5 man warrior units (in Ghost Arks, or not) holding all the objectives, and the other 1490 points not tied up in the Necrons two Wraith tarpits is enough to deal with whatever non-Draigostar units the GK player managed to squeeze in (smaller unit of Pallies, terminators, riflemen...etc)

I know we all want to have the best Deathstar; but sometimes you have to cede the argument to the army that IS basically a deathstar and just play to your strengths. In this case, an MSU Necron list wins 2/3's of missions I should think pretty easily; just by having the ability to be in more than one place at a time....something the Draigostar can't say.

Please, o please, correct me if I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.

The Strange Dude wrote:Ok just for poops and giggles I'm gonna try out my mini deathstar unit in a game tomorrow I have 2 versions I intend to try;

Obyron
2 Lords w/sycthe and Mind shackle (1 w/orb if Trazyn used)
Trazyn the infinite/Overlord (Orb,phase shifter, sycthe, mind shackle) - This is the alteration to use Trazyn or not.
5 Lychguard with sword and board.

also worth noting I have Zandrek in my army to give the unit abilities as required.

Do I think it's competetive - Hell No!, Do I think it will be funny - oh Yes!

McNinja wrote:MSS would be the Paladins greatest enemy. Well, that and Tesseract Labs.

Sure, 'crons have a deathstar, but I think their strength lies in being able to field that deathstar while also fielding plenty of troops and even other elite units. If I were a gambling man, I'd throw a single unit of wraiths at a palladin deathstar and wait for them to die while my doomsday ark sits back and waits. Chances are the wraiths will take a pally out, and the arks shot will wreck face. Probably.

Or, as stated eariler, a RC full of harbingers of eternity, one with a timesplinter cloak, and Lords with Phase Shifters, ws's, and mss. I think that'd be the only way to ensure survivability. Aeonstaves make things hit at I1, standard HoE's provide wound allocation shenanigans, MSS do their "stop hitting yourself" thing, lab's suck people in, and S7 power weapons finish the job, probably leaving only the warding stave pally alive. The ts HoE could also have a Chronometron allowing one failed d6 roll to be re-rolled, so if a Lord fails a save, it could be re-rolled. Oh, and did I mention you could have two of this same unit on the field at once, neither of which take up any FoC slots, leaving plenty of room for pretty much everything else, especially troops?

Also, a monolith could DS right in front of the pallies and portal of exile them into oblivion, or a unit of wraiths could lab them into the same oblivion, but not as well.

Nemesor Dave wrote:That 1700 point draigo deathstar is still not a viable army. If you want to see which book can cram the most CC death into a single unit, that's probably it though.

The whole point of this is to have a viable death star for CC from necrons. If it is too inefficient you might as well go back to shooting and counter charge units.

Any kind of viable deathstar has to serve it's role to charge or counter-charge enemy CC units without giving up too much firepower from the rest of my army.

Right now I'm considering a warscythe lord in each of 3 units of warriors in ghost arks. Not really a deathstar per say, but all together they can move and assault 24" to dogpile on something. Thats 27 warriors and 3 (not IC) hidden warscythes with ghost arks possibly regenerating 3D3 warriors each turn.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

McNinja wrote:MSS would be the Paladins greatest enemy. Well, that and Tesseract Labs.

Sure, 'crons have a deathstar, but I think their strength lies in being able to field that deathstar while also fielding plenty of troops and even other elite units. If I were a gambling man, I'd throw a single unit of wraiths at a palladin deathstar and wait for them to die while my doomsday ark sits back and waits. Chances are the wraiths will take a pally out, and the arks shot will wreck face. Probably.

Or, as stated eariler, a RC full of harbingers of eternity, one with a timesplinter cloak, and Lords with Phase Shifters, ws's, and mss. I think that'd be the only way to ensure survivability. Aeonstaves make things hit at I1, standard HoE's provide wound allocation shenanigans, MSS do their "stop hitting yourself" thing, lab's suck people in, and S7 power weapons finish the job, probably leaving only the warding stave pally alive. The ts HoE could also have a Chronometron allowing one failed d6 roll to be re-rolled, so if a Lord fails a save, it could be re-rolled. Oh, and did I mention you could have two of this same unit on the field at once, neither of which take up any FoC slots, leaving plenty of room for pretty much everything else, especially troops?

Also, a monolith could DS right in front of the pallies and portal of exile them into oblivion, or a unit of wraiths could lab them into the same oblivion, but not as well.

The big problem I have with TLabs is only MCs and ICs. Also, if I was going death star RC, I would have one eternity for sure, but the other slots would be filled by at least one destruction for SP/Gaze, and so on. I would want all the toys, so no one even wants to dance with it, and Nemesor to make sure I'm throwing some extra love on them every turn.

Nemesor Dave wrote:That 1700 point draigo deathstar is still not a viable army. If you want to see which book can cram the most CC death into a single unit, that's probably it though.

Right now I'm considering a warscythe lord in each of 3 units of warriors in ghost arks. Not really a deathstar per say, but all together they can move and assault 24" to dogpile on something. Thats 27 warriors and 3 (not IC) hidden warscythes with ghost arks possibly regenerating 3D3 warriors each turn.

McNinja wrote:

Let's see:

Ultimate Necron Deathstar-995
Nemesor Zahndrekh
RC:
5 Necron Lords w/ Warscythe, SW, and PS, plus 1 Tes.Lab. and 2 MSS
1 Harbinger of Eternity w/ Chrono and Timesplinter Cloak
1 Harbinger of Destruction w/ Solar Pulse and Gaze of Flame
1 Harbinger of Transmogrification w/ Seismic Crucible
1 Harbinger of Despair with Veil of Darkness

Let's see:

Ultimate Necron Deathstar-995
Nemesor Zahndrekh
RC:
5 Necron Lords w/ Warscythe, SW, and PS, plus 1 Tes.Lab. and 2 MSS
1 Harbinger of Eternity w/ Chrono and Timesplinter Cloak
1 Harbinger of Destruction w/ Solar Pulse and Gaze of Flame
1 Harbinger of Transmogrification w/ Seismic Crucible
1 Harbinger of Despair with Veil of Darkness



I would drop SW and PS from a few Lords to save points and make more diverse for wound allocation. Then take more MSS. Also add another Orb for good measure.

Randall Turner wrote:This may be a dumb question, but isn't this all moot given the silly GK grenades? My understanding is that the psychotrope grenades in particular pretty much make it impossible to compete with a GK CC unit.

(ami doin it wrong?)

Randall Turner wrote:This may be a dumb question, but isn't this all moot given the silly GK grenades? My understanding is that the psychotrope grenades in particular pretty much make it impossible to compete with a GK CC unit.

(ami doin it wrong?)

Draigo wrote:A paladin deathstar is viable. You know why? Because people waste so much time shooting at them. They're foot slogging termies without cml or any sort of range but dang they can absorb shots. lol In every game I have fielded the deathstar I have never had all 10 die.

Lists played.
1. Wraithwing
2. IG leafblower
3. BA razorspam
4. Nid swarmlord/doom and all sorts of odd stuff
5. Tau farsightbomb
6. Lash csm
etc

Point is most people waste so much shooting at the paladins they forget the mission because the net has inspired the fear of God in people. lol

Thats what deathstars do they scare people just like scarabs and other items the net has scared people with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have had opponents at the end say wow I shouldn't have shot at them so much. I got beat by half your army cause the star ate so many shots..

Draigo wrote:A paladin deathstar is viable. You know why? Because people waste so much time shooting at them. They're foot slogging termies without cml or any sort of range but dang they can absorb shots. lol In every game I have fielded the deathstar I have never had all 10 die.

Lists played.
1. Wraithwing
2. IG leafblower
3. BA razorspam
4. Nid swarmlord/doom and all sorts of odd stuff
5. Tau farsightbomb
6. Lash csm
etc

Point is most people waste so much shooting at the paladins they forget the mission because the net has inspired the fear of God in people. lol

Thats what deathstars do they scare people just like scarabs and other items the net has scared people with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have had opponents at the end say wow I shouldn't have shot at them so much. I got beat by half your army cause the star ate so many shots..

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

The Strange Dude wrote:Ok just for poops and giggles I'm gonna try out my mini deathstar unit in a game tomorrow I have 2 versions I intend to try;

Obyron
2 Lords w/sycthe and Mind shackle (1 w/orb if Trazyn used)
Trazyn the infinite/Overlord (Orb,phase shifter, sycthe, mind shackle) - This is the alteration to use Trazyn or not.
5 Lychguard with sword and board.

also worth noting I have Zandrek in my army to give the unit abilities as required.

Do I think it's competetive - Hell No!, Do I think it will be funny - oh Yes!

Please tell us how it went.!!

Randall Turner wrote:Related question: (on MSS and model positioning)

I have a friend who moves his models into contact in such a way as to limit # of bases in contact, ie, intentionally leaving "gaps" between bases that are just a bit too small for another model to fit. ie, (picture time)

OOOOOO <-- us
X...X...X...X <--him
XXXXXXXX <-- rest of him

Note that after the front row moves, the back row really can't get into base contact.

Is this fudging the rules? He insists he's meeting the letter of the rules in moving each of his lead guys into contact, and subsequent guys move as close as they can - but his first moves have limited the space available (artificially, to my way of thinking).

Edit: a bit off topic here, sorry.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:Related question: (on MSS and model positioning)

I have a friend who moves his models into contact in such a way as to limit # of bases in contact, ie, intentionally leaving "gaps" between bases that are just a bit too small for another model to fit. ie, (picture time)

OOOOOO <-- us
X...X...X...X <--him
XXXXXXXX <-- rest of him

Note that after the front row moves, the back row really can't get into base contact.

Is this fudging the rules? He insists he's meeting the letter of the rules in moving each of his lead guys into contact, and subsequent guys move as close as they can - but his first moves have limited the space available (artificially, to my way of thinking).

Edit: a bit off topic here, sorry.

Well if HE is charging, he may be doing it right if EVERY model has moved the maximum 6 inches to get MAXIMUM base to base contact. Then before blows are swung, you have to move up to 6 inches to get every model you have in maximal base to base with his, then you guys throw dice. So either way, he shouldnt be protected from base to base or MSS.

Also its incredibly important to note, if he has ICs, they MUST move first, and try to base another IC if possible, or atleast the unit, again if possible