So I'm looking for a pistol for target shooting and home defense. (NO frazzled i won't shoot before i ask them to leave)... what would be an affordable, reliable, low maintenance/easy maintenance starter firearm?

I've heard glocks are pretty affordable these days. Somewhere in the 500-800 range. I personally hate glocks, and am more drawn to USGI things, but that's just me. I have less of an interest in shooting and protecting myself and more about owning something that looks nice and makes me feel like I'm owning something special.

What kind of ammo are you expecting to use? Pistols shoot all kinds of small bullets, from 22s to 45s, most commonly.

http://us.glock.com/products/model/g19gen4

About 450$

http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtPistols/Colt1991Series.aspx

Varies, but around 700-900$ This will probably be my first gun, for some reason.

If you want a decent home defense gun, they make a cheap sigma .45 (?) that you could look into. In terms of sports shooting it's god awful. 12 lb trigger pull. You can easily mod it to 8 ish lbs, but it's still crazy high for target range sort of gun.

I think it would be worth it to understand gun maintenance before you get a gun. If you don't know the basics you can ruin some very easily.

I hear the GAU-8 is a pretty good starter gun.

Yeah, totally good for starters. Doesn't even have a trigger to worry about~!

I was thinking about glocks... they do have a decent name behind them.

http://us.glock.com/products/model/g34

This one looked good. I'm looking for the $600-750 range

And any decent safe to keep it locked up when not with me at the range


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I can't believe there aren't more responses yet... not many gun owners on dakka?

Well, uh. Basically anything will work, but certain people like it to be called a "gun safe" or it isn't good enough for them

Staples sells pretty good sized locked, climate controlled boxed. Some of them have dual Combination+Key locks, which is pretty good if you have children, since there's always the possibility that they'll nab the key to see what's inside... Which wouldn't be good.

Also, look into sig sauers. A lot of special forces guys are pretty fond of them, although I don't know how much that appeals to regular folks.
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p226.aspx

How large are your hands? From the base of the palm to finger tips.
What Caliber do you prefer?
What is your final price range after tax?
Have you shot before?
What and what did you or didnt you like about it.
How often will you be shooting?
Do you intend on getting a concealed carry permit?
If yes what body type do you have, if not, why not?

Depends. Go to a gun store and ask to see different ones. When it comes to handguns, one size does NOT fit all. It's all about what you are comfortable with.

Some say the Springfield XD is crap, personally I love it. Feels great, shoots great.

Some love 1911s. They're great weapons, others say they're horrible and prefer a revolver.

So it's all about what YOU like best. If you hate the way it feels and the way it shoots, it may not be a reliable gun.

A nice .357 Magnum is handy for home defense. A revolver is always good if you have to jump up, grab your piece and start blasting. None of that slide-racking and safety-switching business.

Ruger makes a nice .380 that you could look into as well. It's easily hidden and pretty accurate.

Is there any possibility of carrying concealed in your future?

If you think you might get a CC license at some point, keep that in consideration. There are tons of great home-defense guns, but many of them would not be good carrying guns.

Where are you going to buy from? A good gun store should have a range and many different guns you can rent. Try different makes, styles, and calibers. You might end up spending $50 in rentals and ammo, but it will be money well spend that will help you get a gun that is a good fit for you.

For pure home defense nothing says "Get the Feth out of my House" like the sound of a semiautomatic shotgun being pumped up for the first shot.

d-usa wrote:For pure home defense nothing says "Get the Feth out of my House" like the sound of a semiautomatic shotgun being pumped up for the first shot.

I have an 870 for just that purpose, but the man was asking about handguns.

Monster Rain wrote:A nice .357 Magnum is handy for home defense. A revolver is always good if you have to jump up, grab your piece and start blasting. None of that slide-racking and safety-switching business.

Ruger makes a nice .380 that you could look into as well. It's easily hidden and pretty accurate.

I do have the Ruger LCP (Little Compact Pistol) and I love it. Its about the size of my hand, great for concealed carry, easy maintenance, and all around fun gun. They also make a LCRevolver option.

Many think that .380 is not "enough gun" since it doesn't shoot people to pieces. I care less about "killing" people and I figure if you have 4 bullet holes (I'm gonna assume that I miss in the heat of the moment) you will worry enough about your pain and bleeding to not be a threat anymore.

Also, a .380 was enough gun to start World War One.


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Monster Rain wrote:

d-usa wrote:For pure home defense nothing says "Get the Feth out of my House" like the sound of a semiautomatic shotgun being pumped up for the first shot.

I have an 870 for just that purpose, but the man was asking about handguns.

I know I know, just figured I would throw it out there in case he had not considered it as an option

d-usa wrote:Also, a .380 was enough gun to start World War One.

James Bond had a PPK. Just saying.

Here's some advise, don't buy a gun, and if you have children and a wife, all I can say is ...dude?

If the man wants to buy a gun, then his mind is already made up. No need to come in here with anti-gun posts, or anything that may lead into it.

That being said, the poster's who suggested trying several pistols out before going and buying one is the best idea. I favor a Springfield XD .45 and 9mm. One stays at home and I just grab one when I leave the house. Both are dandy calibers to have for carry and home defense, and abundant enough to not break the bank when it comes to practice at the range.

CrashUSAR wrote:If the man wants to buy a gun, then his mind is already made up. No need to come in here with anti-gun posts, or anything that may lead into it.

I wouldn't have even acknowledged it, personally.

Honestly OP, the more I think about it the more I'd like to suggest just getting a shotgun with a pistol grip for home defense.

Also, the "I won't shoot first" statement is a bit odd. Sometimes robbers have guns. Who would you want to shoot first, you or them?

A simple shotgun has just about every quality your looking for besides being a pistol.

Would an antigun pull bullets towards it? Or is an antigun just armour?

Well, it wouldn't be out of line to ask if he has kids to suggest methods of securing it. As a self-professed first time gun buyer, it's pretty relevant to his interests, especially if he will need to budget for a safe\lockbox.

An antigun is a gun owned by your parent's sister.

Ahh my comment was sort of silly. I just dont like guns if their not for hunting... animals. I just get really miffed if people say "Its the person who kills the person and not the gun". What a load of horse crap.

Doklunggraba wrote:Ahh my comment was sort of silly. I just dont like guns if their not for hunting... animals. I just get really miffed if people say "Its the person who kills the person and not the gun". What a load of horse crap.

Well...it is the person. If they don't use a gun they'll use a kitchen knife. No matter what they end up using that kills someone, the common factor is always the wielder.

I stand by "guns don't kill people, people kill people". A gun is merely a tool and nothing more, a tool in the hands of someone with intention to act.

Cool Story Bro: My wife has a decent relationship with her ex. He lives nearby, and knows useful things they don't teach you in school (how to fix a leaking pipe). Having a modern education, I know all sorts of substantially less useful things (how to remove malware). As a result, we interact every so often, amicably. His brother is a handyman sort who is not averse to hard work. He mows our lawn once a week or so; as I'd rather pay to do it than do it myself. He also is addicted to painkillers.

Anyway, a while back he apparently came in the house and stole all the painkillers my wife had leftover from a surgery. Having moved here from NYC, I was shocked and horrified by my wife's midwestern predilection for not locking doors, a habit which I had long exhorted her to do and now had finally drilled home. In any event, as we don't know it was him (but it almost certainly was since nothing else was stolen at all) we talked about home defense. After looking at various guns, we decided that the chances of actually shooting an intruder vs shooting a resident were not favorable, and since the intruder would be almost certainly someone I'd prefer not to actually kill... we went with a taser. Was around $300 or so, shoots darts, laser sight, acts as a stun-gun after deploying darts. Seemed like a good compromise for my unique situation.

She also started locking the damn doors.

My suggestion would be to try and get your hand around a used police trade-in glock. 17, 19, or one of the .40 varieties (Seen these dip under the 400 dollar mark fairly often last I looked.).....Then get a .22 conversion kit and a small pistol safe (For when it is not under your immediate direct control.) for it. Then go buy several thousand rounds of .22 to practice along with several big boxes of the 9mm/40/45/whatever the gun usually fires, and buy a whole <CENSORED> load of range time and/or training classes. If you are serious about using it as a defensive weapon, I do hope you take that bit of advice about a training class to heart unless you come from a Killin-<CENSORED> butcher/ranchhand/hunter background, for mindset if nothing else.

EDIT:

And any decent safe to keep it locked up when not with me at the range

Any metal box with a lock on it that will fit the pistol will be about as good as any other, unless you are going to go full on half ton or heavier bolt to the floor solid unobtanium monster like I have. The others are basically only useful for keeping honest people honest and keeping any children away from things that go bang. If you are not home, and someone wants that gun, they will rip the whole safe out of the wall with a crowbar and pick it apart later at a more discreet location. Even the half ton WTFSafes get yanked/rammed by vehicles, cut open with O/A torches, plasma cutters or good ol saws, etc. They buy you time, nothing more.


....And on the defensive weapon thing, if you're REALLY serious about it, I'd suggest getting a lshotgun or appropriate rifle ASAP. Pistols in a firefight is about like bringing a switchblade to the ClaymoreFest 9001.

Shoot whatever you're planning to buy first. As much as you can, in fact. I was convinced I'd end up buying a Glock someday, but I just can't shoot them comfortably. Something about their grip angle is just off for me.

Figure out what caliber you're comfortable with. My personal advice would be to go with the largest round you can shoot comfortably. Either way, plenty of people have been killed by .22s, so it's not as big a deal as most gun forumites would make it out to be.

Off the top of my head, guns I've shot recently that I could see myself buying if I hadn't been sold on the Heckler & Koch HK45C:

Smith & Wesson M&P. You can pick it up chambered for 9mm, .40, or .45. It has three different sizes of palmswells, so fitting a comfortable grip is pretty easy.

Walther P99. Same deal as the M&P with the palmswells. A very, very comfortable gun to shoot for me. It has some wonky trigger options, though, so know what you're buying with this one. I'd go with the Double Action Only trigger configuration, personally.

SIG P226. I did not think I would like this one, as I'm apparently a wuss who's gotten used to polymer pistols, but I loved it, despite the DA/SA action.

As for the HK45...can't say enough good about it. It's the most expensive on the list, unfortunately, but you get what you pay for with it. I would (and did) get the Compact (C) version. It's not exactly going to be comfortable if you ever decide to concealed carry, but it can do it.

Necroshea wrote:If you want a decent home defense gun, they make a cheap sigma .45 (?) that you could look into. In terms of sports shooting it's god awful. 12 lb trigger pull. You can easily mod it to 8 ish lbs, but it's still crazy high for target range sort of gun.

I think it would be worth it to understand gun maintenance before you get a gun. If you don't know the basics you can ruin some very easily.

Sigma triggers make baby Jebus cry, but they are inexpensive.


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Necroshea wrote:Honestly OP, the more I think about it the more I'd like to suggest just getting a shotgun with a pistol grip for home defense.

Also, the "I won't shoot first" statement is a bit odd. Sometimes robbers have guns. Who would you want to shoot first, you or them?

A simple shotgun has just about every quality your looking for besides being a pistol.

Well he also said target shooting, so the pistol is out.


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Seaward wrote:Shoot whatever you're planning to buy first. As much as you can, in fact. I was convinced I'd end up buying a Glock someday, but I just can't shoot them comfortably. Something about their grip angle is just off for me.

Figure out what caliber you're comfortable with. My personal advice would be to go with the largest round you can shoot comfortably. Either way, plenty of people have been killed by .22s, so it's not as big a deal as most gun forumites would make it out to be.

Off the top of my head, guns I've shot recently that I could see myself buying if I hadn't been sold on the Heckler & Koch HK45C:

Smith & Wesson M&P. You can pick it up chambered for 9mm, .40, or .45. It has three different sizes of palmswells, so fitting a comfortable grip is pretty easy.

Walther P99. Same deal as the M&P with the palmswells. A very, very comfortable gun to shoot for me. It has some wonky trigger options, though, so know what you're buying with this one. I'd go with the Double Action Only trigger configuration, personally.

SIG P226. I did not think I would like this one, as I'm apparently a wuss who's gotten used to polymer pistols, but I loved it, despite the DA/SA action.

As for the HK45...can't say enough good about it. It's the most expensive on the list, unfortunately, but you get what you pay for with it. I would (and did) get the Compact (C) version. It's not exactly going to be comfortable if you ever decide to concealed carry, but it can do it.

All good choices and I will follow on to that:

frgsinwntr wrote:So I'm looking for a pistol for target shooting and home defense. (NO frazzled i won't shoot before i ask them to leave)... what would be an affordable, reliable, low maintenance/easy maintenance starter firearm?

Are we talking the same pistol (often those are different)?

Whats your price range?
$600 – 750 range is a wide array of plasticy guns, all of which will meet your needs. In fact it’s the most competitive segments. Sounds like you’re thinking about a Glock 34 which also includes target shooting cpapacity (many winning shooters use them). That’s an excellent choice.
Here’s a few sample comparables.

http://gunsgunsguns.net/smith-wesson-mp9l/
Smith and Wesson. Now there are more tactical and night shooting versions, including with night sights, so look around. They are the closest US made version, indeed lost a lawsuit concerning the trigger action. DAO as well, with the same palm swell stuff, but with stainless steel and nice competitive sights. Made in America HURR!
http://gunsgunsguns.net/smith-wesson-mp9l/

Springfield XDM. This pistol is made to compete in the same class. Has a grips safety and the DAO trigger is more SA than DAO (lighter and less pull distance-aka less mushy). Frazzled likey this gun.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/springfield-armory-xdm-5-25-competition/

Walther. This is the pistol Glock was trying to make. Incredibly good quality and smooth trigger pull. IIRC it invented the multiple palm swells. These are less competition guns than field guns, but people do definitely compete in IDPA with them.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/walther-ppq/
http://gunsgunsguns.net/walther-p99/

Sig Sauer (pronounced SIG SAUER!). Again made in the USA (German company). This is more of a tactical pistol but I’ve included because its SA/DA and has an absolutely sweet trigger.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/sig-sauer-p226-uspsa/

There are others, these are just some. Also step up a little and you get into competition levels sigs, H&Ks (now there is a pistol) and the wonderful world of the perfect firearm, the 1911 frame.

Safes:
Here you go. You can open these in about 3 seconds if necessary, but otherwise fine. Depending on size they hold 2-4 pistols and can be found at Academy and a plethora of places. There are similar items, again all good.
http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_29454_-1?ICID=CRT:0340-03031-0055

We have these two and are very satisfied:
http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_29489_-1?N=626381016+10001&Ntt=safe&Ntk=All

http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_29459_-1?N=626381016+10001&Ntt=safe&Ntk=All




Other questions or notes:
-You need to practice a hanger queen is just a good way to die.
-You need to seriously think about what your plan of action is going to be. Roaming the house when you hear a noise is exactly what you don’t want to do. There are a plethora of training videos and courses, including from the NRA.
-Other family members? If so you need to consider that both for above and for defense purposes. You definitely need a safe at that point.

Don't buy anything out of the back of a van from some guy wearing a ski mask.

I myself am getting a Springfield XD 4" service model when my tax return comes in. I have smaller hands, but it fit me like a glove. comes in 9mm, .40S&W, and .45 (I'm getting the .40 personally). Comes with a grip safety, striker and loaded chamber indicators so you can tell if its loaded and cocked by just looking at the back of the gun, ambidextrous mag release (I'm a lefty, and the wife is a righty), and they all come with an accessory rail, for less then $600. After renting it and putting around 100 rounds through it, I defiantly recommend it.

List of all the XD features here

Relapse wrote:Whenever possible, buy it out of the back of a van from some guy wearing a ski mask.

Corrected your typo.


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Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:I myself am getting a Springfield XD 4" service model when my tax return comes in. I have smaller hands, but it fit me like a glove. comes in 9mm, .40S&W, and .45 (I'm getting the .40 personally). Comes with a grip safety, striker and loaded chamber indicators so you can tell if its loaded and cocked by just looking at the back of the gun, ambidextrous mag release (I'm a lefty, and the wife is a righty), and they all come with an accessory rail, for less then $600. After renting it and putting around 100 rounds through it, I defiantly recommend it.

List of all the XD features here

Have you tried the "americanized" XDM series? If so, how do you find the two?

I've shot the full size XDM in 9mm. I liked the grips. It was less mushy than a glock (shot about an inch low at 7 yards with stock sights).
Someone said the grips remind him of motorcycle grips. Maybe thats why I like them so much, they surely do.

I got the impression he meant "target shooting" more in the "take it to the range and bang away at one of those borderline racist paper targets" rather than "competition shooting," though I could well be wrong.

And, OP, I forgot to mention, though others didn't...if you're wanting to spend a lot of time on the gun, revolver's probably the way to go. Ridiculously easy maintenance, simple to operate, and you can leave it loaded without worrying about springs eventually wearing out and such.

Seaward wrote:I got the impression he meant "target shooting" more in the "take it to the range and bang away at one of those borderline racist paper targets" rather than "competition shooting," though I could well be wrong.

And, OP, I forgot to mention, though others didn't...if you're wanting to spend a lot of time on the gun, revolver's probably the way to go. Ridiculously easy maintenance, simple to operate, and you can leave it loaded without worrying about springs eventually wearing out and such.

If thats the case than a shotgun is nice, but should be practiced as well. Alternatively of the list noted, the tactical versions of all of those are widely available and cheaper. At that point I'd throw in Ruger (America Hurr!) which has a strong name, Taurus, Beretta ($500 for 92), even Kel-Tec and Kahr on the less expansive end.

Shotguns, well, the perennial debate is which is better, a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870...

If you want something that doesn't suck and that is a priority over money, look to Sig Sauers. Specifically, P229, or a 238 for CC.

If you want something that doesn't suck as bad as everything else, but still kinda sucks, and money is of concern, Glock. Specifically, 19.

piperider361 wrote:If you want something that doesn't suck and that is a priority over money, look to Sig Sauers. Specifically, P229, or a 238 for CC.

If you want something that doesn't suck as bad as everything else, but still kinda sucks, and money is of concern, Glock. Specifically, 19.

Tell us how you really feel.

piperider361 wrote:If you want something that doesn't suck and that is a priority over money, look to Sig Sauers. Specifically, P229, or a 238 for CC.

If you want something that doesn't suck as bad as everything else, but still kinda sucks, and money is of concern, Glock. Specifically, 19.

This is pretty solid, advise. I'd probably seek to warn people you suggest the 238 to that it is a Colt Mustang with all the advantages and disadvantages that implies rather than a true Sig.
Still waiting to see if OP returns before trying to make any suggestions.


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Frazz how come you no America hurr for Kel Tec, Ruger likes them so much they keep stealing their designs. Come to think Kahr is an American company too...maybe I missed some sarcasm...now my morning is ruined.

AustonT wrote:

piperider361 wrote:If you want something that doesn't suck and that is a priority over money, look to Sig Sauers. Specifically, P229, or a 238 for CC.

If you want something that doesn't suck as bad as everything else, but still kinda sucks, and money is of concern, Glock. Specifically, 19.

This is pretty solid, advise. I'd probably seek to warn people you suggest the 238 to that it is a Colt Mustang with all the advantages and disadvantages that implies rather than a true Sig.
Still waiting to see if OP returns before trying to make any suggestions.

CHL is a whole different ball game. You have compact and subcompact variants at that point. Sig's name is definitely not big in that area.

And of course all this ignores the fundamental greatness of the 1911, which is generally above the price point, although not necessarily (9mms were mentioned however).


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AustonT wrote:

piperider361 wrote:If you want something that doesn't suck and that is a priority over money, look to Sig Sauers. Specifically, P229, or a 238 for CC.

If you want something that doesn't suck as bad as everything else, but still kinda sucks, and money is of concern, Glock. Specifically, 19.

This is pretty solid, advise. I'd probably seek to warn people you suggest the 238 to that it is a Colt Mustang with all the advantages and disadvantages that implies rather than a true Sig.
Still waiting to see if OP returns before trying to make any suggestions.


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Frazz how come you no America hurr for Kel Tec, Ruger likes them so much they keep stealing their designs. Come to think Kahr is an American company too...maybe I missed some sarcasm...now my morning is ruined.

Son of a ...You're right. Not only are they American manufactured (as are many SIgs and Berettas in the US), but American designed.

No and the new one they have (290?) is not particularly impressive next to the Kel Tec/Ruger and Kahr offerings. Let alone the old reliable J frame.
On a daily basis I conceal a full frame Sig 220, which I consider the logical evolution of the 1911. I have several others but my 220 has been primary for years, as it should be, I don't have to think to put rounds where I want them. I find tha a 1911 is a lot like a Ford. I love it, its sexy, classic, and rock solid but I'm always under the hood. Tensioning this, polishing that. The Sig is like a Chevy, it works hard and all I ever do is clean and load...ok I put in a short reset trigger and lightened the DA pull.

AustonT wrote:No and the new one they have (290?) is not particularly impressive next to the Kel Tec/Ruger and Kahr offerings. Let alone the old reliable J frame.
On a daily basis I conceal a full frame Sig 220, which I consider the logical evolution of the 1911. I have several others but my 220 has been primary for years, as it should be, I don't have to think to put rounds where I want them. I find tha a 1911 is a lot like a Ford. I love it, its sexy, classic, and rock solid but I'm always under the hood. Tensioning this, polishing that. The Sig is like a Chevy, it works hard and all I ever do is clean and load...ok I put in a short reset trigger and lightened the DA pull.

I was right there until you said Chevy. I thought you liked Sigs, and didn't think they were absolute ?

Buy the proper 1911 and you're never under the hood unless you want to be. 1911s and like glocks. They are eminently tweakable, but don't have to be.

EDIT: ayah on concealed I'd have to proffer the Walther PPS as the gold standard for subcompacts, with the Ruger LCP as the standard eensy weensy .380 subcompacts.

Whether true or not my Dad and his Dad are Ford guys, and as much as the love thier trucks they require almost daily attention, like a race horse. They also taught me that a chevy is like a cart horse, as long as you feed it it'll keep going...until it dies; then just get a new one. I thought it worked...meh you got the idea and that's what counts.


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I guess I should say I don't have to (had to I actually sold my 1911) tweak it all the time. It's the quest for perfection that can only be found in a 1911 where recoil is transmitted in just the right direction, the balance is just so, and the operation cycle is absolutely flawless. I wouldn't bother with any other gun.

AustonT wrote:Whether true or not my Dad and his Dad are Ford guys, and as much as the love thier trucks they require almost daily attention, like a race horse. They also taught me that a chevy is like a cart horse, as long as you feed it it'll keep going...until it dies; then just get a new one. I thought it worked...meh you got the idea and that's what counts.


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I guess I should say I don't have to (had to I actually sold my 1911) tweak it all the time. It's the quest for perfection that can only be found in a 1911 where recoil is transmitted in just the right direction, the balance is just so, and the operation cycle is absolutely flawless. I wouldn't bother with any other gun.

I wouldn't personally recommend a 1911 unless you intend to mess with it quite a bit. They're great guns, but only once they've been essentially rebuilt. At least in my experience.

Besides, if you're going to spend that kind of money, get an HK. Best pistols in the world.

Seaward wrote:I wouldn't personally recommend a 1911 unless you intend to mess with it quite a bit. They're great guns, but only once they've been essentially rebuilt. At least in my experience.

Besides, if you're going to spend that kind of money, get an HK. Best pistols in the world.

Rugers, Colts, Springfields etc. don't have to be rebuilt. Now, often they are however, because 1911 are often competitors or as you say, looking to personalize and tinker. I've not touched my 1911 as it came with all the bells and whistles out the box.

DickBandit wrote:Depends. Go to a gun store and ask to see different ones. When it comes to handguns, one size does NOT fit all. It's all about what you are comfortable with.

Some say the Springfield XD is crap, personally I love it. Feels great, shoots great.

Some love 1911s. They're great weapons, others say they're horrible and prefer a revolver.

So it's all about what YOU like best. If you hate the way it feels and the way it shoots, it may not be a reliable gun.

THIS

Monster Rain wrote:A nice .357 Magnum is handy for home defense. A revolver is always good if you have to jump up, grab your piece and start blasting. None of that slide-racking and safety-switching business.

Ruger makes a nice .380 that you could look into as well. It's easily hidden and pretty accurate.

AND THIS

I especially support the .38, revolvers are not going to jam on you like other weapons will, but the fact remains that all weapons are different as all people are different, go to a range try out a number of them.

my suggestions for trial are: XD .38/.40 (I think they make a .357/.38 too), 1911, 92fs, .38 hammerless revolver, Rem/Mossberg 12gauge

Also a good rule of thumb for new gun buyers is stick to brand names that you know or have heard of. Accuracy for the most part is just a matter of practice.

Also: unless you are planning on buying from the shady character in the back of the van, or maybe even a gun show, see what kind of support your local gun shop offers.

Like I mentioned previously, a good gun shop should have at the very minimum a target range so that you can get comfortable shooting your gun. Most calibers offer at least decent priced target ammo, use that to shoot to your hearts content and keep the man-stopper ammo for when it counts.

Ideally the gun store will have guns to rent, so shoot as many of them as you can before buying. You can find out everything you want about guns online, friends, and the friendly gun-monger. But the most important factor is how that gun feels when you shoot it in your own hands.

Also see if your gun store offers classes. We have two around here that offer classes on gun maintenance, handling, how to improve your shooting, etc.

I am very much pro-gun, but I also like to stress that with great gun comes great responsibility. Know your gun, and find out everything you can about using it. A good store will not only sell you a gun, they will also make sure that you can use it efficiently and in the safest manner possible.

Plasma pistol ftw.

Taurus 24/7's are great and fairly inexpensive. I've never had a problem with mine other than crappy ammo.

Just make sure you check the date of manufacture for the specific firearm. Taurus makes quality weapons, but whenever they come out with a new "hot product", their quality assurance tends to focus on the newer stuff and drops off on the older.

Your best bet is to find one that was made during the research and development of the next model.

Also, careful with the non-oem magazines. I bought a generic one, and it never locks back after the last round, only if you rack the slide when its empty. Can't for the life of me figure out why.

Always try before you buy if possible.

When you get your concealed carry permit, get it from florida. They issue to out of state residents, is good in 36 other states, and is only $117. Takes about a month and a half through the mail.

MartiniPunk wrote:

my suggestions for trial are: XD .38/.40 (I think they make a .357/.38 too), 1911, 92fs, .38 hammerless revolver, Rem/Mossberg 12gauge

erm....

A revolver would be especially reliable, and with a speedloader it can be loaded pretty quickly if you have practice.

IIRC there are fewer drawbacks in leaving a revolver loaded than a semi-automatic, but I still wouldn't recommend leaving a loaded gun in the house...

Melissia wrote:A revolver would be especially reliable, and with a speedloader it can be loaded pretty quickly if you have practice.

IIRC there are fewer drawbacks in leaving a revolver loaded than a semi-automatic, but I still wouldn't recommend leaving a loaded gun in the house...

Then whats the point? Are you going to load a pistol in the dark?

If he has a simple case safe (as noted in my original post) then the pistol is safe and ready for use.

True. I guess I'm just a bit paranoid cause there's stupid brats in the house, not to mention overly curious kittens.

in what scenario are you worrying about curious kittens discharging your loaded revolver?

Melissia wrote:True. I guess I'm just a bit paranoid cause there's stupid brats in the house, not to mention overly curious kittens.

Understand completely. Thats what the safe is for.

Home defense? Shotgun - You don't have to aim really well, alternate birdshot with buckshot and you have
big flames and big noise (deterrent) and when a buckshot load hits - real stopping power. Pistol grip with no butt stock...

AustonT wrote:in what scenario are you worrying about curious kittens discharging your loaded revolver?

ANY scenario involving a loaded revolver and a curious kitten.

You don't hang around kittens much do you? They get in as much trouble as children, if not more.

Melissia wrote:

AustonT wrote:in what scenario are you worrying about curious kittens discharging your loaded revolver?

ANY scenario involving a loaded revolver and a curious kitten.

You don't hang around kittens much do you? They get in as much trouble as children, if not more.

A cat with a loaded gun, is one of the doomsday scenarios the Pentagon practices for...

For home defense nothing beats a shotgun hands down. Easy to use, Easy to shoot and easy to aim. Plus they have the added benefit of multiple different types of easily aquired ammuntion. I'd personally recommend using brid shoot as it generally won't travel through walls.

Melissia wrote:

AustonT wrote:in what scenario are you worrying about curious kittens discharging your loaded revolver?

ANY scenario involving a loaded revolver and a curious kitten.

You don't hang around kittens much do you? They get in as much trouble as children, if not more.

Yeah I totally worry about a kitten opening a drawer, pulling out a pistol that probably weighs more than it does, and pulling the DA trigger. It keeps me up nights.
Ridiculous.

AustonT wrote:

Melissia wrote:

AustonT wrote:in what scenario are you worrying about curious kittens discharging your loaded revolver?

ANY scenario involving a loaded revolver and a curious kitten.

You don't hang around kittens much do you? They get in as much trouble as children, if not more.

Yeah I totally worry about a kitten opening a drawer, pulling out a pistol that probably weighs more than it does, and pulling the DA trigger. It keeps me up nights.
Ridiculous.

Well every cat I've known is pretty much a 4 legged serial killer, and should be treated accordingly.

AustonT wrote:Yeah I totally worry about a kitten opening a drawer, pulling out a pistol that probably weighs more than it does, and pulling the DA trigger. It keeps me up nights.

Good, it'll help you survive the apocalypse.

By the way, my kitten has managed to get in to a closed drawer and if I hadn't stopped him he would have easily gotten in to the drawer where I ahve his kitty treats. He's also thrown fingernail clippers at me and hit me in the face with them. And these are only the non-fictional things he's done, let's not get memetic here.

seems unlikely at best, suggesting a kitten can fire a gun is begging to be memed. possibly by ancient alien guy.

How large are your hands? From the base of the palm to finger tips.
7 inches

What Caliber do you prefer? Don't care

What is your final price range after tax? 700-800 after tax

Have you shot before? yup!

What and what did you or didnt you like about it. I enjoyed pretty much all of it

How often will you be shooting? once a month to every other month

Do you intend on getting a concealed carry permit? Yup

If yes what body type do you have, if not, why not? I'm 5'10" 250lbs but mostly muscle.... I go to the gym 4-5 days a week and bench over 300... I'm not THIN cause i don't like to diet and certainly don't like cardio, but I certainly am not fat... Most people guess my body weight as 175


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Doklunggraba wrote:Here's some advise, don't buy a gun, and if you have children and a wife, all I can say is ...dude?

I have a kid on the way, and my wife is super pro gun. she grew up around them


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CrashUSAR wrote:If the man wants to buy a gun, then his mind is already made up. No need to come in here with anti-gun posts, or anything that may lead into it.

That being said, the poster's who suggested trying several pistols out before going and buying one is the best idea. I favor a Springfield XD .45 and 9mm. One stays at home and I just grab one when I leave the house. Both are dandy calibers to have for carry and home defense, and abundant enough to not break the bank when it comes to practice at the range.

so find a range i can rent at and go that route for a bit?

Frazzled wrote:

Necroshea wrote:If you want a decent home defense gun, they make a cheap sigma .45 (?) that you could look into. In terms of sports shooting it's god awful. 12 lb trigger pull. You can easily mod it to 8 ish lbs, but it's still crazy high for target range sort of gun.

I think it would be worth it to understand gun maintenance before you get a gun. If you don't know the basics you can ruin some very easily.

Sigma triggers make baby Jebus cry, but they are inexpensive.


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Necroshea wrote:Honestly OP, the more I think about it the more I'd like to suggest just getting a shotgun with a pistol grip for home defense.

Also, the "I won't shoot first" statement is a bit odd. Sometimes robbers have guns. Who would you want to shoot first, you or them?

A simple shotgun has just about every quality your looking for besides being a pistol.

Well he also said target shooting, so the pistol is out.


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Seaward wrote:Shoot whatever you're planning to buy first. As much as you can, in fact. I was convinced I'd end up buying a Glock someday, but I just can't shoot them comfortably. Something about their grip angle is just off for me.

Figure out what caliber you're comfortable with. My personal advice would be to go with the largest round you can shoot comfortably. Either way, plenty of people have been killed by .22s, so it's not as big a deal as most gun forumites would make it out to be.

Off the top of my head, guns I've shot recently that I could see myself buying if I hadn't been sold on the Heckler & Koch HK45C:

Smith & Wesson M&P. You can pick it up chambered for 9mm, .40, or .45. It has three different sizes of palmswells, so fitting a comfortable grip is pretty easy.

Walther P99. Same deal as the M&P with the palmswells. A very, very comfortable gun to shoot for me. It has some wonky trigger options, though, so know what you're buying with this one. I'd go with the Double Action Only trigger configuration, personally.

SIG P226. I did not think I would like this one, as I'm apparently a wuss who's gotten used to polymer pistols, but I loved it, despite the DA/SA action.

As for the HK45...can't say enough good about it. It's the most expensive on the list, unfortunately, but you get what you pay for with it. I would (and did) get the Compact (C) version. It's not exactly going to be comfortable if you ever decide to concealed carry, but it can do it.

All good choices and I will follow on to that:

frgsinwntr wrote:So I'm looking for a pistol for target shooting and home defense. (NO frazzled i won't shoot before i ask them to leave)... what would be an affordable, reliable, low maintenance/easy maintenance starter firearm?

Are we talking the same pistol (often those are different)?

Whats your price range?
$600 – 750 range is a wide array of plasticy guns, all of which will meet your needs. In fact it’s the most competitive segments. Sounds like you’re thinking about a Glock 34 which also includes target shooting cpapacity (many winning shooters use them). That’s an excellent choice.
Here’s a few sample comparables.

http://gunsgunsguns.net/smith-wesson-mp9l/
Smith and Wesson. Now there are more tactical and night shooting versions, including with night sights, so look around. They are the closest US made version, indeed lost a lawsuit concerning the trigger action. DAO as well, with the same palm swell stuff, but with stainless steel and nice competitive sights. Made in America HURR!
http://gunsgunsguns.net/smith-wesson-mp9l/

Springfield XDM. This pistol is made to compete in the same class. Has a grips safety and the DAO trigger is more SA than DAO (lighter and less pull distance-aka less mushy). Frazzled likey this gun.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/springfield-armory-xdm-5-25-competition/

Walther. This is the pistol Glock was trying to make. Incredibly good quality and smooth trigger pull. IIRC it invented the multiple palm swells. These are less competition guns than field guns, but people do definitely compete in IDPA with them.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/walther-ppq/
http://gunsgunsguns.net/walther-p99/

Sig Sauer (pronounced SIG SAUER!). Again made in the USA (German company). This is more of a tactical pistol but I’ve included because its SA/DA and has an absolutely sweet trigger.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/sig-sauer-p226-uspsa/

There are others, these are just some. Also step up a little and you get into competition levels sigs, H&Ks (now there is a pistol) and the wonderful world of the perfect firearm, the 1911 frame.

Safes:
Here you go. You can open these in about 3 seconds if necessary, but otherwise fine. Depending on size they hold 2-4 pistols and can be found at Academy and a plethora of places. There are similar items, again all good.
http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_29454_-1?ICID=CRT:0340-03031-0055

We have these two and are very satisfied:
http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_29489_-1?N=626381016+10001&Ntt=safe&Ntk=All

http://www.academy.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_10051_29459_-1?N=626381016+10001&Ntt=safe&Ntk=All




Other questions or notes:
-You need to practice a hanger queen is just a good way to die.
-You need to seriously think about what your plan of action is going to be. Roaming the house when you hear a noise is exactly what you don’t want to do. There are a plethora of training videos and courses, including from the NRA.
-Other family members? If so you need to consider that both for above and for defense purposes. You definitely need a safe at that point.

loads of good info! I'll see what the NRA has to offer on safety vids

Oh yeah, you can rent a weapon for a use at a gun range.

AustonT wrote:
erm....

Sorry, I meant .40/.357 swaps, the other is a 9mm swap.

If you are looking for a firearm strictly for home defense, your best bet is a Shotgun.

Nothing tells intruders to run quite like the racking sound of a pump action shotgun.

Shotguns are fairly inexpensive, you can buy one at walmart or any major department store Ammunition is readily available and also inexpensive.

If you want a firearm that you can also take along with you, I still suggest a shotgun, but in the form of the Taurus Judge. It uses .410 shot shells, or .45 Colt.

You can lots of variety of loads in the .410 shell, from size 4 birdshot to .000 which is 3 pellets, about the size of a 9mm bullet each, packed in 1 shell, awesome. throwing 3 9mm rounds with one trigger pull. Then they also make a .410 slug. This will be equivalent of 2 .45 auto rounds all at once.

Melissia, what did you end up buying? I remember quite a while ago, you were looking to pick up a piece for the same sort of reasons

frgsinwntr wrote:How large are your hands? From the base of the palm to finger tips.
7 inches

What Caliber do you prefer? Don't care

What is your final price range after tax? 700-800 after tax

Have you shot before? yup!

What and what did you or didnt you like about it. I enjoyed pretty much all of it

How often will you be shooting? once a month to every other month

Do you intend on getting a concealed carry permit? Yup

If yes what body type do you have, if not, why not? I'm 5'10" 250lbs but mostly muscle.... I go to the gym 4-5 days a week and bench over 300... I'm not THIN cause i don't like to diet and certainly don't like cardio, but I certainly am not fat... Most people guess my body weight as 175

This I can work with.
Based on the knowlege you want eventually to conceal the Glock 34 you posted probably isn't what you want. It's basically a long slide G17 (G17L really). It's a fantastic target pistol chambered in a service round, but not realistic for concealed carry. With your body size and reasonable wardrobe choices you could easily carry a full length semi like the G17 though.
Based on your hand size you will likely be more comfortable with a single stack semi or revolver with slimmer grips than a double stack semi, or overmolded revolver grips. That doesn't mean these other guns are unshootable or controllable simply my opinion in terms of your comfort.
In comparison my hands are 7 3/8s long I tend to prefer my Sig 220, or slim grips on a J frame to my Glocks, but my buddy Greg with his tiny dwarf 6 7/8s hands almost exclusively uses Glocks. He recently machine the space from behind the magazine in the grip out, it makes a world of difference.
Just for size I would probably take serious looks at: Sig 220, Sig P5, Kahr P and PM series, and the single stack Glocks, Colt Cobra/Detective, SandW J frame or any number of Clones,
Based on your whole Criteria I recommend: Glock 17/22, Sig 226/228, any one of the Browning Double action family sold under the name Hi Power or BDA, at least look at a 1911 Frazz mentioned some great companies up thread I recommend looking at some inexpensive ones because they are mechanically sound and currently under valued specifically Rock River Arms and Hi Standard, and Medium to Large frame revolvers.
This may be TLDR but here's a short summary of WHY I suggest each gun.

Sig 220: This gun is heavy, steel frame and slide make this a carry gun not for the faint of heart but also reduces felt recoil from the 45ACP, night sights are a must as the stock Sig sights are awful. The factory DA pull is a little heavy but the chage is so common Sig stocks a part number for the lighter spring (Green). The decocker is easy to access when you want and requires enough force that you wont do it by accident. No safeties of any kind unless you count the decocker, means that this firearm is simple and can be easily operated in any light or weather conditions. Expect to pay as little as $500 to as much as $1200. Depending on options you choose and used or new, expect 660to 750 out the door.

Sig P5: This has a 2xx number but I can't be bothered to look for it, they didnt sell in large numbers in the US. Most of them you will find are German police trade ins from a couple years ago. It's basically the same gun as the 220 above but with the slide length of the P228. Chambered in 9mm with 7(IIRC) in the mag it's not exactly topping out the 9mm field in capacity. This gun is WORTH about $300, if you find one try to meet that price. They sold for 280-480 when the market was flooded. Don't pay more than 350.

Kahr: Kahr was once a CNC manufacturer that has turned into a reliable American gun maker. They are essentially single stack Glocks, similar grip shape, trigger,and striker. The smaller grip should fit well in your hand.The trigger tends to be a little sloppy compared to Glock ( itself not the best trigger). They come in a variety of calibers but are essentially all the same size, the PM being marginally smaller than the P. In my opinion the 9mm and 45 PM are as small as you can go in a semi and still have full control over aim and recoil for follow on shots. Its been awhile since I checked retail prices for Kahr, expect about 600-700. Several cops that I know prefer these as backup guns and off duty carry.

Colt Detective/SandW J frame. Essentially the same pistol, the Colt is older and OOP for several years. Colt revolvers were handmade to exacting standards, finding one in good condition for a decent price is neigh on impossible if you do buy it immediately. SandW J frames and thier Taurus and Rossi clones are all basically the same but the quality is in descending order. I'd buy a gently used Smith before a brand new Taurus. Don't go out of your way to find a 357 but its good to have the capability. The small grips and generally small pistol should fit you well and easily conceal, I carry mine in a front pants pocket, cargo pocket or a berns-martin holster. Not exactly a target gun, you can shoot it for familiarity and 38SPC wont break the bank. expect to pay 250-700 depending on brand, material, and condition. Used a good quality 38 Smith should run 350-450. The wife got me a new Taurus...the quality was not impressive but I'm a detail guy. The overall fit and finish was excellent...I still say used Smith...

Glock: Pretty much all Glocks are mechanically identical. I heavily suggest the police trade in 3rd generation G22s that are just everywhere these days. The grip will probably seem large, it can be machined out if you want to. Parts for Glocks and people who can work on them are everywhere. Glocks get a bad rap from gun snobs ( including me at one time) but its ergonomic design and its proliferation make it a solid addition to any gunsafe. I reccomend the G22 for a number of reasons. First 40SW is a solid caliber, cheap to shoot,accurate, and a mild recoil. A G22 can take a no tools barrel change to 357 Sig or 9mm. 357 sig uses 40 mags and 9mm mags are cheap. You can register a stock for it and turn your Glock into a semiauto subgun. Versatility is the word of the day for full side Glocks. expect to pay 300-600

Sig 226/228: Everything I said about the other Sigs applies except the grip is noticeably fatter. IF someone offers you the Blackwater edition...pass out of principle...and useless features.

The Browning Hi Power: John Browning's crowning achievement. I despise DAO pistols with every fiber of my being, But the BDA has served the British Army, notably the SAS, and even the Nazis...still going. I cant argue with such a wide following, personally not my favorite. This is basically the pistol that most modern handguns trace their lineage to.

1911: I feel like everything that could be said about 1911s...already has been by better men.

Things you should consider even though they aren't usually on people "sexy must have guns for home defense and target shooting".

A 4 inch barreled 357. Longer sigh radius than a snubbie makes it more practical for punching paper and its still concealable in many of the places you might put a full frame semi. You can make repeatable 100M shots with practice and its still a fast drawing concealable. Think Smith 686 or Taurus 66...probably used for the Smith they get pricey. The 45 ACP Smith 625 works too

22WMR Revolver: the Taurus Model 941 specifically. You get 8 shots, its cheap to shoot and can act as a trainer for another J frame...or just a primary. 22 Mag not big enough for you? It share virtually identical ballistics with the much touted FN 5.7. You can reduce the trigger pull much below what you could with a centerfire (necessary for some ladies)

Edit: forgot one
.22 semi auto that is not a target pistol first. Most of these are now OOP but a solid reliable 22 like the Beretta 70 and similar guns are suitable for plinking and effective for self defense if you train often with it which with a 22 you likely will.
22s are plenty for killing people, Israeli air marshals used to carry them with great efficacy, I would hazard to guess that more people have been killed off the battlefield with 22s than any other round, it it ist first it's probably in the top 3.
I hope that narrows the field.


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MartiniPunk wrote:

AustonT wrote:
erm....

Sorry, I meant .40/.357 swaps, the other is a 9mm swap.

ahh...makes more sense now.

frgsinwntr wrote:How large are your hands? From the base of the palm to finger tips.
7 inches

Mess around with some of the options that include alternate palm swells. Every range I've been to in my area has an M&P as a rental, and it's well within your price range if memory serves. The Walther P99 might be as well, though it's impossible to find as a range gun.

As for not caring about the caliber...if you've shot .45 and can shoot it well, go with .45. You won't be shooting often enough for the higher ammo cost to really make it worthwhile to go with 9mm, and if you ever actually do have to use the gun in self-defense, it's loud and angry. It's no shotgun, but .45's aren't subtle. It'll do more damage than smaller calibers, too. Cue discussion on hydrostatic shock and hot loads.

Melissia wrote:Oh yeah, you can rent a weapon for a use at a gun range.

This is very true. Depending on your location, local ranges will have variety of items to try out.

New father eh? Now I get it.


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I f you’re looking at eventual concealed carry, but also are looking at home defense then I’d also consider the “concealed” category. These are larger than the tiny .380s and single columns 9mms. Several have handy extensions for full scale pistol shooting. I’ll stick to this range. Considering your size and the little woman I’ll leave out the really small handgrip M&Ps and Glocks.

XDM 3.8 concealed. This pistol comes with a smallish grip but relatively high capacity (13 rounds). However it also has the option of 18 or 19 round magazines with extensions which is excellent to protect the house or general shooting. Three backstrap choices.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/springfield-armory-xdm-compact/

Ruger SR9c. A personal favourite. Very similar to above except stainless steel, with an actual safety. It has a 10 round (California compliant blech!) and 17 round extension. Its also pretty dirt cheap. It has some of the best sights with adjustable sights for elevation and windage. Three backstrap choices.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/ruger-sr9c/

Glock 19: your generic glock with a 5 in height. If you like Glock, you’ll like this. Plus they finally caught up and have the 3 backstrap option.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/glock-19-gen4/

Beretta Storm: SA/DA with manual safety option. I’ve shot them and their recoil is less than others. Larger capacity clip.
http://gunsgunsguns.net/beretta-px4-storm-compact/
sub compact version
http://gunsgunsguns.net/beretta-px4-storm-type-f-sub-compact/

The Walthers have already been mentioned and should be extremely looked at.


And now for a manly gun for manly men who desire a commander size handcannon. To have a 1911 is to love it and despair!
http://gunsgunsguns.net/colt-xse-commander/
http://gunsgunsguns.net/springfield-armory-ultra-compact/


And of course what Daddy Frazzled really wants:
http://gunsgunsguns.net/sti-vip/

Oh, I did forget the Px4 subcompact good call Frazz. Great little gun. The fit to your hand should be pretty good too, it's squat and fat...but those turn into advantages for this little gun when shooting.

Never been a fan of the Ruger semis, they feel poorly built and I strapped one into a pistol bench and it shot in a circle, it wasn't scientific but it was good enough for me. On the other hand Ruger revolvers like the GP100,SP101, or Security Six are all fantastic.

AustonT wrote:Oh, I did forget the Px4 subcompact good call Frazz. Great little gun. The fit to your hand should be pretty good too, it's squat and fat...but those turn into advantages for this little gun when shooting.

Never been a fan of the Ruger semis, they feel poorly built and I strapped one into a pistol bench and it shot in a circle, it wasn't scientific but it was good enough for me. On the other hand Ruger revolvers like the GP100,SP101, or Security Six are all fantastic.

I hears ya on the Ruger. However, this is a new series (the SR9c and new 40 cal version) all reviews are very good, and these include reviewers that are more critical in general (Gun Tests). A cop and wife next to me two weeks ago were trying one out, and he was popping extremely tight groups and noted the trigger was pretty crisp. Plus at 4.6inchs height without the extenions/extended magazine its big enough for a guy with larger hands. I'd recommend renting comparables for the OP if possible.

I am trying to get She Who Must Be Obeyed to replace her Bersa .380 (aka Baby). This is one of of the pistols I'm trying to get her to try out. The list ihcludes the Beretta subcompact above, this and the M&P carry version. She didn't like the Walther PPS, mainly because "its not Baby." On the .380 front I may try to get her to try the Walther PPK and the Sig version, but again that all depends on rental availability. I think the key issue will be the ability to pull the slide back. Whichever easiest is the one she will like the most methinks.

Im generally wary of Walther, they aren't what I'd consider a top company any more. The guns are sexy they just aren't of the same quality for thier price point. My P22's slide is made of zinc for Christs sake! I was impressed by Smith's ability to feth up a 50 year old design when they started building the PPK/S.
Are you looking for bigger or just not a Bersa?

AustonT wrote:Im generally wary of Walther, they aren't what I'd consider a top company any more. The guns are sexy they just aren't of the same quality for thier price point. My P22's slide is made of zinc for Christs sake! I was impressed by Smith's ability to feth up a 50 year old design when they started building the PPK/S.
Are you looking for bigger or just not a Bersa?

Originally bigger, but by the time the Obama Bullet Bubble finally Burst I had managed to procure about 1,500 rounds for her. We both like the pistol (it has the best grip feel and is reasonably accurate with mild recoil) , its just too finicky for comfort for a CC piece and jams too much for consistent range fun. Plus as noted, its getting harder for her to crank the slide.

The M&P/Ruger are comparable in size. Frankly I think if she could she would "appropriate" my Beretta 92 like she has previous pistols. Her and Genghis Connie both love it but its little big for her purse. Hence me thinking the Storm subcompact might be the best starting point.

When you decide on a gun, be sure to stock up on ammo for every situation.

One other really important thing regarding home defense, the most important rule of gun safety is knowing what is beyond the target. Its impossible to fully predict what a bullet will do when it hits a target and in the unfortunate case of you having to defend yourself in the home against another person there are a lot of variables that can cause a huge variety of results.

Your gun should be able to take down your target, but you don't want the round to go through and then pass through drywall into whatever is behind it. There is no magical caliber that will take out a bad guy in one shot, that all depends on the individual being shot and where he's being shot; but the one thing to concern yourself with is whether or not your neighbors will notice you defending yourself.

Remember a few rules of home defense and common sense; aim for upper body, only fire as much needed to remove the threat( self defense ends when you reload), plan out situations, and for the love of all that is good and holy practice with the damn thing.

halonachos wrote:One other really important thing regarding home defense, the most important rule of gun safety is knowing what is beyond the target. Its impossible to fully predict what a bullet will do when it hits a target and in the unfortunate case of you having to defend yourself in the home against another person there are a lot of variables that can cause a huge variety of results.

Your gun should be able to take down your target, but you don't want the round to go through and then pass through drywall into whatever is behind it. There is no magical caliber that will take out a bad guy in one shot, that all depends on the individual being shot and where he's being shot; but the one thing to concern yourself with is whether or not your neighbors will notice you defending yourself.

I think that is one of the good arguments for a shotgun.

halonachos wrote: self defense ends when you reload

Unless you are dealing with multiple intruders, or zombies....

We use a shotgun, but once you open the shotgun box then there's questions about shot, gauge, pump action, and all other sorts of business. Some people laugh at the idea of using birdshot on an intruder and others will laugh at the idea of using #4 buckshot just like handgun users will laugh at using .22 against an intruder.

Sorry to break this to everyone, but there are people who survived WW2 after being shot by .308 or its equivalent and there are people who have been killed by .22.

By the reloading comment its more towards the concept that if an intruder is incapacitated and lying on the ground then there's no need to pump in a few more shots. Same if they're running away, shooting people while they're running away is a huge no-no.

halonachos wrote:We use a shotgun, but once you open the shotgun box then there's questions about shot, gauge, pump action, and all other sorts of business. Some people laugh at the idea of using birdshot on an intruder and others will laugh at the idea of using #4 buckshot just like handgun users will laugh at using .22 against an intruder.

Sorry to break this to everyone, but there are people who survived WW2 after being shot by .308 or its equivalent and there are people who have been killed by .22.

By the reloading comment its more towards the concept that if an intruder is incapacitated and lying on the ground then there's no need to pump in a few more shots. Same if they're running away, shooting people while they're running away is a huge no-no.

The problem with a shotgun that is being ignored here is that the OP stated there was a kid involved or will be. In that case, on a practical basis a shotgun is out in most circumstances. the weapon needs to be unloaded or in a safe of some sort. Practically speaking its even easier to have a magazine fed rifle as the magazine can be put in the safe (not my favorite option).

Additionally, a shotgun is not the best with children in the fact that being able to shepherd children with one hand is a factor.

halonachos wrote:By the reloading comment its more towards the concept that if an intruder is incapacitated and lying on the ground then there's no need to pump in a few more shots. Same if they're running away, shooting people while they're running away is a huge no-no.

Famous case in Oklahoma City (my hometown) about a pharmacist who was being robbed, shot the first guy and knocked him unconscious, then chased the other guys outside the building shooting them as they were running away, stepping back inside the building, walking past the first person he shot in the head that is still on the ground not moving, getting a second gun, then shooting that guy 5 more times at point blank range to kill him.

He ended up being convicted for murder, and a gag-load of people still are signing petitions for his release because he as wrongly convicted for "only defending himself and his business".


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Frazzled wrote:

halonachos wrote:We use a shotgun, but once you open the shotgun box then there's questions about shot, gauge, pump action, and all other sorts of business. Some people laugh at the idea of using birdshot on an intruder and others will laugh at the idea of using #4 buckshot just like handgun users will laugh at using .22 against an intruder.

Sorry to break this to everyone, but there are people who survived WW2 after being shot by .308 or its equivalent and there are people who have been killed by .22.

By the reloading comment its more towards the concept that if an intruder is incapacitated and lying on the ground then there's no need to pump in a few more shots. Same if they're running away, shooting people while they're running away is a huge no-no.

The problem with a shotgun that is being ignored here is that the OP stated there was a kid involved or will be. In that case, on a practical basis a shotgun is out in most circumstances. the weapon needs to be unloaded or in a safe of some sort. Practically speaking its even easier to have a magazine fed rifle as the magazine can be put in the safe (not my favorite option).

Additionally, a shotgun is not the best with children in the fact that being able to shepherd children with one hand is a factor.

Couldn't you make the argument though that with children in the house it is even more important to have an option that is less likely to go through walls and enter their bedroom? Not sure if a big gun safe next to the bed with a quick keypad unlock is an option, I know at my house it would be practical but unlikely to overcome the interior decorating objections from my wife...

Frazzled wrote:

AustonT wrote:Im generally wary of Walther, they aren't what I'd consider a top company any more. The guns are sexy they just aren't of the same quality for thier price point. My P22's slide is made of zinc for Christs sake! I was impressed by Smith's ability to feth up a 50 year old design when they started building the PPK/S.
Are you looking for bigger or just not a Bersa?

Originally bigger, but by the time the Obama Bullet Bubble finally Burst I had managed to procure about 1,500 rounds for her. We both like the pistol (it has the best grip feel and is reasonably accurate with mild recoil) , its just too finicky for comfort for a CC piece and jams too much for consistent range fun. Plus as noted, its getting harder for her to crank the slide.

The M&P/Ruger are comparable in size. Frankly I think if she could she would "appropriate" my Beretta 92 like she has previous pistols. Her and Genghis Connie both love it but its little big for her purse. Hence me thinking the Storm subcompact might be the best starting point.

You may also turn her on to a BDA in 380, have seen several good examples lately. Its got a good solid grip and great capacity for a 380. If it's a purse gun one of the Sig "melts" marketed under the SAS name might also appeal to her. A Kimber (shudder) Carry or similar used Colt in 38 Super,9mm, or 45 might also fit the bill. Just for options. As always the Lady Smith (Model 60?) is a good purse gun too.
Truth be told if you can find it try the Kel Tech 22 WMR semi. Mild recoil, high capacity, relativly small profile worth a look if you can find a dealer...although it occurs you mention Cali often...you dont still live there do you?

AustonT wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

AustonT wrote:Im generally wary of Walther, they aren't what I'd consider a top company any more. The guns are sexy they just aren't of the same quality for thier price point. My P22's slide is made of zinc for Christs sake! I was impressed by Smith's ability to feth up a 50 year old design when they started building the PPK/S.
Are you looking for bigger or just not a Bersa?

Originally bigger, but by the time the Obama Bullet Bubble finally Burst I had managed to procure about 1,500 rounds for her. We both like the pistol (it has the best grip feel and is reasonably accurate with mild recoil) , its just too finicky for comfort for a CC piece and jams too much for consistent range fun. Plus as noted, its getting harder for her to crank the slide.

The M&P/Ruger are comparable in size. Frankly I think if she could she would "appropriate" my Beretta 92 like she has previous pistols. Her and Genghis Connie both love it but its little big for her purse. Hence me thinking the Storm subcompact might be the best starting point.

You may also turn her on to a BDA in 380, have seen several good examples lately. Its got a good solid grip and great capacity for a 380. If it's a purse gun one of the Sig "melts" marketed under the SAS name might also appeal to her. A Kimber (shudder) Carry or similar used Colt in 38 Super,9mm, or 45 might also fit the bill. Just for options. As always the Lady Smith (Model 60?) is a good purse gun too.
Truth be told if you can find it try the Kel Tech 22 WMR semi. Mild recoil, high capacity, relativly small profile worth a look if you can find a dealer...although it occurs you mention Cali often...you dont still live there do you?

No thank God.

Actually Kel Tec is making noises about a more compact 22WMR. Don't know if I will wait that long however.

I have birdshot for my Home Defense shotgun as it's less likely to penetrate walls and leave the house. Should I have to fire it. No need to involve the neighbors, right?

I think birdshot would do a fine job. I am less concerned about killing anybody breaking into my house. If the person is alive but flailing in pain on my carpet that still means he is not a thread to my family.

Monster Rain wrote:I have birdshot for my Home Defense shotgun as it's less likely to penetrate walls and leave the house. Should I have to fire it. No need to involve the neighbors, right?

Birdshot encompasses a wide range, have you tested the size you are using for suitability?

#7 or higher. It'll do the job, but isn't heavy enough to carry very far.

Put a trigger lock on the shotgun and keep the key in a place that you know where it is. There's also lock boxes that go over the trigger and loading mechanism.

halonachos wrote:Put a trigger lock on the shotgun and keep the key in a place that you know where it is. There's also lock boxes that go over the trigger and loading mechanism.

You're going to funble with finding a key, fidgeting it into the lock, getting that whole thing off and then going forward? You're a better man than me.

Frazzled wrote:

halonachos wrote:Put a trigger lock on the shotgun and keep the key in a place that you know where it is. There's also lock boxes that go over the trigger and loading mechanism.

You're going to funble with finding a key, fidgeting it into the lock, getting that whole thing off and then going forward? You're a better man than me.

And fumbling with a combination lock is much easier? I guess that making sure the lock is reset, then turning it to the first number, then going around once before setting it to the second number before setting it on the final number is much easier then finding a key and turning it.

The one thing with pistols is that you do have to put them into a safe because its easy to fit a pistol into a pocket or backpack and many young children have brought handguns to school for innocent reasons, its much harder to hide a shotgun or rifle in a backpack.

halonachos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

halonachos wrote:Put a trigger lock on the shotgun and keep the key in a place that you know where it is. There's also lock boxes that go over the trigger and loading mechanism.

You're going to funble with finding a key, fidgeting it into the lock, getting that whole thing off and then going forward? You're a better man than me.

And fumbling with a combination lock is much easier? I guess that making sure the lock is reset, then turning it to the first number, then going around once before setting it to the second number before setting it on the final number is much easier then finding a key and turning it.

If you practice you can get quite proficient at opening a combination lock.

I still remember the combination to my foot locker at boot camp. I could pop that thing in about 3 seconds.

I'd like too say there is some fantastic advice in this thread! I'm seriously considering buying a gun when I go to the Philippines this March.

I had never really wanted one for home defence, but my mother-in-law found an intruder in her home at 5:00am one morning and chased him out with a baseball bat! But that story got me thinking. As I own a home not far away from her ive been discussing with the wife about purchasing a handgun for her mother and us. This thread has been most useful, thanks guys and gals!

Monster Rain wrote:

halonachos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

halonachos wrote:Put a trigger lock on the shotgun and keep the key in a place that you know where it is. There's also lock boxes that go over the trigger and loading mechanism.

You're going to funble with finding a key, fidgeting it into the lock, getting that whole thing off and then going forward? You're a better man than me.

And fumbling with a combination lock is much easier? I guess that making sure the lock is reset, then turning it to the first number, then going around once before setting it to the second number before setting it on the final number is much easier then finding a key and turning it.

If you practice you can get quite proficient at opening a combination lock.

I still remember the combination to my foot locker at boot camp. I could pop that thing in about 3 seconds.

And if you practice enough, then I'm sure its just as easy if not easier to use a key. Arguing from that stand point is like saying someone with practice in a skill is better than someone not practiced in that skill, no matter what you choose it'll be easier if you practice it. I don't practice too often with a combination lock, but I can sure as hell find and turn a key.

You can't lose, misplace, or fumble with a memorized and practiced combination.

You can't lose a key that you keep in a spot well known to you, I can go all day about this, in fact you can get an electronic lock that you just push buttons on and its still a trigger lock.

halonachos wrote:You can't lose a key that you keep in a spot well known to you,

Yes you can.

halonachos wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

halonachos wrote:Put a trigger lock on the shotgun and keep the key in a place that you know where it is. There's also lock boxes that go over the trigger and loading mechanism.

You're going to funble with finding a key, fidgeting it into the lock, getting that whole thing off and then going forward? You're a better man than me.

And fumbling with a combination lock is much easier? I guess that making sure the lock is reset, then turning it to the first number, then going around once before setting it to the second number before setting it on the final number is much easier then finding a key and turning it.

The one thing with pistols is that you do have to put them into a safe because its easy to fit a pistol into a pocket or backpack and many young children have brought handguns to school for innocent reasons, its much harder to hide a shotgun or rifle in a backpack.

Look at the safe again. It is a simple punch safe. I have in fact awakened and opened one in absolute darkness. Where is this key going to be?

halonachos wrote:in fact you can get an electronic lock that you just push buttons on and its still a trigger lock.

Where do you stick the key?

halonachos wrote:You can't lose a key that you keep in a spot well known to you, I can go all day about this, in fact you can get an electronic lock that you just push buttons on and its still a trigger lock.

That would be the way to go IMO.

I have a small save attached to the nightstand that has a electronic combination lock.

Monster Rain wrote:You can't lose, misplace, or fumble with a memorized and practiced combination.

I can literally open the safe in less than 2 seconds. I've timed it.


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halonachos wrote:You can't lose a key that you keep in a spot well known to you, I can go all day about this, in fact you can get an electronic lock that you just push buttons on and its still a trigger lock.

This I like better.

I've never lost a key that I've kept in a specific spot, also Monster I said that there are electronic trigger locks, the point of it being electronic is to get rid of the key if you didn't want one. Either way, as long as you practice something you will be better at it because I'm sure that you didn't open your safe in two seconds as soon as you got it or the first time you worked with a safe.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Melissia, what did you end up buying? I remember quite a while ago, you were looking to pick up a piece for the same sort of reasons

Nothing yet. I decided to upgrade my computer instead >.>

halonachos wrote:I've never lost a key that I've kept in a specific spot, also Monster I said that there are electronic trigger locks, the point of it being electronic is to get rid of the key if you didn't want one. Either way, as long as you practice something you will be better at it because I'm sure that you didn't open your safe in two seconds as soon as you got it or the first time you worked with a safe.

Well, you wouldn't have the key around where kids could get to it, but a push trigger key is more amenable to my thinking.

Would that work on an M1?

You'll probably never hear me actually say "you shouldn't use that ammunition" because people need to make their own choices. I would however give you "great caution" in using shot size generally used for clay shooting (7 and above). The hats I shot up for 25,50,75, and 100 in trap all deflected #7.5 from the plastic brim. My favortie one that I still wear from skeet still has a #8 pellet in the brim. Its not to say it wont stop someone, and it will probably not exit your home...or the room, but I heartily implore you to consider at least testing your chosen loads performance on fruits and vegetables. I remember in my hunters safety course John Wayne told be that a cabage is about as dense as a human head, and theres always water melons wrapped in a goodwill tshirt and jacket.
Ultimately its up to you. I've landed on anything from BB to 4. With BB I can get honking 3 and 3 1/2 inch shells with four more conservative 2 3/4 are about all you can find (3's if you know where to look). Although I keep 2 3/4 00 in my SxS in the garage because there's a chance I have to make longer shots.


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Opps a litle belated thats for Monster Rain

frgsinwnt wrote: I'm 5'10" 250lbs but mostly muscle.... I go to the gym 4-5 days a week and bench over 300... I'm not THIN cause i don't like to diet and certainly don't like cardio, but I certainly am not fat... Most people guess my body weight as 175

Assuming everything you've said is accurate, you must know a lot of people that are awful at guessing body weight.


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Monster Rain wrote:You can't lose, misplace, or fumble with a memorized and practiced combination.

Combinations and keys can both be misplaced/forgotten, even with practice. I transpose my SSN all the time, and often have to hunt for my car keys.

If you shoot a cabbage from 15 feet away with a #7 shell I think the damage would be sufficient to neutralize a threat. I say 15 feet because "home defense" type situations will typically take place at pretty close range.

put a jacket or shirt on it, nothing too heavy, let not get ridiculous unless you live in a very cold clime. I'm not trying to dissuade you, just encouraging a realistic expectation. There's a 20G in my house with 6rds of 8shot in it, because I figure that if one doesnt do it the 2nd or third or fourth will, but that's because Ive seen what it does. It's worth $10 and an hour of your time to try...or just aim for the meaty parts.

Shooting fruit dressed up in clothes actually sounds like a lot of fun.

I think I'll see if I can find any NY Giants jerseys on clearance.

Monster Rain wrote:Shooting fruit dressed up in clothes actually sounds like a lot of fun.

Your inner homophobe is coming out.

Oh you!

I would have said vegetables, but hasn't Terri Schiavo suffered enough?

Monster Rain wrote:Oh you!

I would have said vegetables, but hasn't Terri Schiavo suffered enough?

well played.

Agreed.

AustonT wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:How large are your hands? From the base of the palm to finger tips.
7 inches

What Caliber do you prefer? Don't care

What is your final price range after tax? 700-800 after tax

Have you shot before? yup!

What and what did you or didnt you like about it. I enjoyed pretty much all of it

How often will you be shooting? once a month to every other month

Do you intend on getting a concealed carry permit? Yup

If yes what body type do you have, if not, why not? I'm 5'10" 250lbs but mostly muscle.... I go to the gym 4-5 days a week and bench over 300... I'm not THIN cause i don't like to diet and certainly don't like cardio, but I certainly am not fat... Most people guess my body weight as 175

This I can work with.
Based on the knowlege you want eventually to conceal the Glock 34 you posted probably isn't what you want. It's basically a long slide G17 (G17L really). It's a fantastic target pistol chambered in a service round, but not realistic for concealed carry. With your body size and reasonable wardrobe choices you could easily carry a full length semi like the G17 though.
Based on your hand size you will likely be more comfortable with a single stack semi or revolver with slimmer grips than a double stack semi, or overmolded revolver grips. That doesn't mean these other guns are unshootable or controllable simply my opinion in terms of your comfort.
In comparison my hands are 7 3/8s long I tend to prefer my Sig 220, or slim grips on a J frame to my Glocks, but my buddy Greg with his tiny dwarf 6 7/8s hands almost exclusively uses Glocks. He recently machine the space from behind the magazine in the grip out, it makes a world of difference.
Just for size I would probably take serious looks at: Sig 220, Sig P5, Kahr P and PM series, and the single stack Glocks, Colt Cobra/Detective, SandW J frame or any number of Clones,
Based on your whole Criteria I recommend: Glock 17/22, Sig 226/228, any one of the Browning Double action family sold under the name Hi Power or BDA, at least look at a 1911 Frazz mentioned some great companies up thread I recommend looking at some inexpensive ones because they are mechanically sound and currently under valued specifically Rock River Arms and Hi Standard, and Medium to Large frame revolvers.
This may be TLDR but here's a short summary of WHY I suggest each gun.

Sig 220: This gun is heavy, steel frame and slide make this a carry gun not for the faint of heart but also reduces felt recoil from the 45ACP, night sights are a must as the stock Sig sights are awful. The factory DA pull is a little heavy but the chage is so common Sig stocks a part number for the lighter spring (Green). The decocker is easy to access when you want and requires enough force that you wont do it by accident. No safeties of any kind unless you count the decocker, means that this firearm is simple and can be easily operated in any light or weather conditions. Expect to pay as little as $500 to as much as $1200. Depending on options you choose and used or new, expect 660to 750 out the door.

Sig P5: This has a 2xx number but I can't be bothered to look for it, they didnt sell in large numbers in the US. Most of them you will find are German police trade ins from a couple years ago. It's basically the same gun as the 220 above but with the slide length of the P228. Chambered in 9mm with 7(IIRC) in the mag it's not exactly topping out the 9mm field in capacity. This gun is WORTH about $300, if you find one try to meet that price. They sold for 280-480 when the market was flooded. Don't pay more than 350.

Kahr: Kahr was once a CNC manufacturer that has turned into a reliable American gun maker. They are essentially single stack Glocks, similar grip shape, trigger,and striker. The smaller grip should fit well in your hand.The trigger tends to be a little sloppy compared to Glock ( itself not the best trigger). They come in a variety of calibers but are essentially all the same size, the PM being marginally smaller than the P. In my opinion the 9mm and 45 PM are as small as you can go in a semi and still have full control over aim and recoil for follow on shots. Its been awhile since I checked retail prices for Kahr, expect about 600-700. Several cops that I know prefer these as backup guns and off duty carry.

Colt Detective/SandW J frame. Essentially the same pistol, the Colt is older and OOP for several years. Colt revolvers were handmade to exacting standards, finding one in good condition for a decent price is neigh on impossible if you do buy it immediately. SandW J frames and thier Taurus and Rossi clones are all basically the same but the quality is in descending order. I'd buy a gently used Smith before a brand new Taurus. Don't go out of your way to find a 357 but its good to have the capability. The small grips and generally small pistol should fit you well and easily conceal, I carry mine in a front pants pocket, cargo pocket or a berns-martin holster. Not exactly a target gun, you can shoot it for familiarity and 38SPC wont break the bank. expect to pay 250-700 depending on brand, material, and condition. Used a good quality 38 Smith should run 350-450. The wife got me a new Taurus...the quality was not impressive but I'm a detail guy. The overall fit and finish was excellent...I still say used Smith...

Glock: Pretty much all Glocks are mechanically identical. I heavily suggest the police trade in 3rd generation G22s that are just everywhere these days. The grip will probably seem large, it can be machined out if you want to. Parts for Glocks and people who can work on them are everywhere. Glocks get a bad rap from gun snobs ( including me at one time) but its ergonomic design and its proliferation make it a solid addition to any gunsafe. I reccomend the G22 for a number of reasons. First 40SW is a solid caliber, cheap to shoot,accurate, and a mild recoil. A G22 can take a no tools barrel change to 357 Sig or 9mm. 357 sig uses 40 mags and 9mm mags are cheap. You can register a stock for it and turn your Glock into a semiauto subgun. Versatility is the word of the day for full side Glocks. expect to pay 300-600

Sig 226/228: Everything I said about the other Sigs applies except the grip is noticeably fatter. IF someone offers you the Blackwater edition...pass out of principle...and useless features.

The Browning Hi Power: John Browning's crowning achievement. I despise DAO pistols with every fiber of my being, But the BDA has served the British Army, notably the SAS, and even the Nazis...still going. I cant argue with such a wide following, personally not my favorite. This is basically the pistol that most modern handguns trace their lineage to.

1911: I feel like everything that could be said about 1911s...already has been by better men.

Things you should consider even though they aren't usually on people "sexy must have guns for home defense and target shooting".

A 4 inch barreled 357. Longer sigh radius than a snubbie makes it more practical for punching paper and its still concealable in many of the places you might put a full frame semi. You can make repeatable 100M shots with practice and its still a fast drawing concealable. Think Smith 686 or Taurus 66...probably used for the Smith they get pricey. The 45 ACP Smith 625 works too

22WMR Revolver: the Taurus Model 941 specifically. You get 8 shots, its cheap to shoot and can act as a trainer for another J frame...or just a primary. 22 Mag not big enough for you? It share virtually identical ballistics with the much touted FN 5.7. You can reduce the trigger pull much below what you could with a centerfire (necessary for some ladies)

Edit: forgot one
.22 semi auto that is not a target pistol first. Most of these are now OOP but a solid reliable 22 like the Beretta 70 and similar guns are suitable for plinking and effective for self defense if you train often with it which with a 22 you likely will.
22s are plenty for killing people, Israeli air marshals used to carry them with great efficacy, I would hazard to guess that more people have been killed off the battlefield with 22s than any other round, it it ist first it's probably in the top 3.
I hope that narrows the field.


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MartiniPunk wrote:

AustonT wrote:
erm....

Sorry, I meant .40/.357 swaps, the other is a 9mm swap.

ahh...makes more sense now.

whoa thank you very much for all of this information. I'll be going to the range in february and I'll try some of these out. : ) the concealed permit won't be useful in NJ however... as its not a state where the reciprocity takes effect... I'd be going for a florida non-resident one


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dogma wrote:

frgsinwnt wrote: I'm 5'10" 250lbs but mostly muscle.... I go to the gym 4-5 days a week and bench over 300... I'm not THIN cause i don't like to diet and certainly don't like cardio, but I certainly am not fat... Most people guess my body weight as 175

Assuming everything you've said is accurate, you must know a lot of people that are awful at guessing body weight.


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Monster Rain wrote:You can't lose, misplace, or fumble with a memorized and practiced combination.

Combinations and keys can both be misplaced/forgotten, even with practice. I transpose my SSN all the time, and often have to hunt for my car keys.

Dunno about that... here is a pic from this past summer when i went on a hike with my wife....



I'd guess around 175-180 seeing this picture with my height...

But honestly then my wife asked for the best ork face since I had just moved a huge tree off the Appalachian trail so people didn't have to step over it.... so I did...



Most lifters lift with their upper body since they are lifting to look good... i focus on strength so legs are a big deal...





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dogma wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:Shooting fruit dressed up in clothes actually sounds like a lot of fun.

Your inner homophobe is coming out.

what you did there...

I see it