There's a similar question going on right now on this page that focuses more on who is ultimately in charge of the Imperium, and it's good reading. I came here asking this question and I hoped to find it answered in that thread, but alas, it was not, so here's a new thread. The question is at what command level is Exterminatus ordered?

The Inquisition. AFAIK only they have the real 'right' to order one but i'd say that SM Chapter Masters and IG Commanders (high level commanders) probably also have the authority to do so in certain circumstances. Though with IG they would need to be an army group general of a crusade or something...

May depend on the sources you read, but the 40k rulebooks make a point about Exterminatus being connected to the Inquisition, and always the Inquisition alone.

I've read somewhere that Astartes warships can also carry Exterminatus devices, but in combination with the above I suppose this would mean that they may have the ability to deliver the payload but are not granted the right to use it whenever they want. Similar to the Imperial Navy.
Not that this would always prevent unauthorized usage, mind you, especially if a Chapter goes rogue.

At least that's how I've come to see it.

Many SM ships carry exterminatus stuff on them. It is sometimes the only way an Inquisitor can get one carried out, by ordering an SM ship to do it.
However the few Inquisition shps that exist in sufficient size have exterminatus stuff as well and some Navy ships have them.

In C: SM It is mentioned that Calgar issues the order for Exterminatus a couple of times. It is also mentioned that The Blood Swords use it, so I guess Chapter Masters have the right to order it as well.

Fairly certain it isn't just the inquisition, especially since exterminates also includes severe planetary bombardment. Inquisitors can be very rare. If the planet is getting overrun by tyranids or chaos there is no guarantee an inquisitor will be available, but exterminatus must still be performed.

I think the Inquisition are the only ones who can order certain types, like virus bombing, but high level commanders from several organizations have the authority: Space Marines, Guard, Navy, High Lords, and obviously full inquisitors.

I'd say only the very senior guard commanders can order it...

Inquisitors (High Ranking, I would assume)
Space Marine Masters

I think that's it. Maybe extremely high ranking humans like Yarrick could as well.

riplikash wrote:I think the Inquisition are the only ones who can order certain types [...]

Hum, I guess that would make sense, especially if severe planetary bombardment via lance strikes already counts as Exterminatus, too. Works for me, anyways.

purplefood wrote:I'd say only the very senior guard commanders can order it...

I'm not sure if the Imperial Guard could order anything from the Imperial Navy, but senior IG Commanders can be elevated to Warmaster status, which (iirc) also gives them command of the Navy assets attached to the campaign - and with it the ability to indeed decree Exterminatus?

Now, I'm operating on the assumption that "Warmaster" isn't an IG rank but rather something above all the combined arms. It has been ages since I read that stuff, though, so I could well remember wrong here.

Inquisitors only have 2 ranks...
Inquisitor and Lord Inquisitor.
Though some are inevitably more senior than others.

Lord Inquisitor isn't actually a rank, it's a term of respect. There are several ranks in the inquisition lower than Inquisitor though. Interrogator, for example, would be an example of a member of the Inquisition that isn't considered a "full inquisitor". They have vast, far reaching power, much like an inquisitor, but would likely not be authorized to actually perform an exterminates.

There can be many ranks below that too, but once you become an Inquisitor you are technically equal in authority to all other inquisitors. But the reality of the situation is that some Inquisitors are more equal than others.

riplikash wrote:Lord Inquisitor isn't actually a rank, it's a term of respect. There are several ranks in the inquisition lower than Inquisitor though. Interrogator, for example, would be an example of a member of the Inquisition that isn't considered a "full inquisitor". They have vast, far reaching power, much like an inquisitor, but would likely not be authorized to actually perform an exterminates.

There can be many ranks below that too, but once you become an Inquisitor you are technically equal in authority to all other inquisitors. But the reality of the situation is that some Inquisitors are more equal than others.

A Lord Inquisitor has power over an Inquisitor.
The way i understand it is that a Lord Inquisitor is responsible for the co-ordination (when required) of many Inquisitors.
Interregators are in-training inquisitors but apart from that there isn't another rank... not AFAIK.

There are several ranks of Acolyte who are being trained to one day take the rank of Inquisitor. Explicator and then, from memory, I think there's another rank or two and Interregator is the top rank, those who are ready to make the final leap to the lofty heights of power the rank of Inquisitor brings.

As others have said, Exterminatus is pretty much only ever ordered by the Inquisition and they alone have the absolute authority to order a planet to be declared Exterminatus.

Depending on the fluff you read, Lord Inquisitor is either just a term of respect, or is an actual rank that is afforded to an Inquisitor when two other Lord Inquisitors of the sub-Sector Conclave put his/her name forward, and second the motion.

A Warmaster would have the authority to order Exterminatus, yes, as they're a combined-arms leader of Imperial military forces... but a simple Guard Commander? No... unless he plans on blowing the planet up from under his own feet, as he doesn't have a ride off the place without the Navy, of whom the Guard is not in command. Creed did blow a planet or two up, but is the Lord Castellan of Cadia, which probably grants him command of combined Imperial forces.

purplefood wrote:
A Lord Inquisitor has power over an Inquisitor.
The way i understand it is that a Lord Inquisitor is responsible for the co-ordination (when required) of many Inquisitors.
Interregators are in-training inquisitors but apart from that there isn't another rank... not AFAIK.

It really depends on the fluff you are going with. The newer push has been for Inquisitor Lord (FFG rpgs, grey knights codex, a few novels) has been for the title "lord" to not so much be an absolute rank as but more a recognition of an inquisitors power and influence, e.g. it doesn't confer you authority, you had the authority already and it is being recognized by your fellow inquisitors. But I know in the past it has been a rank, so since all fluff is valid it just depends on which you want to go with.

If you want to go with the new fluff you could still call the 'lord' title a rank as you are granted it by being nominated by an existing lord and confirmed by two other lords. It grants no additional legal authority, however. It is just a recognition of power and authority already gained. If we want to treat that as a rank we should also consider the ranks of Grand-Master (head of a conclave) and Master (other heads of a conclave).

Interrogators are not just 'inquisitors in training', though they are the rank just below inquisitor, so inquisitors in training would often hold that rank. But it is entirely possible to be an interrogator for life. As for acolyte ranks there are Explicator (as has been mentioned), Neophyte, Novitiates, Approbators, and numerous others.

The thing about the inquisition, like everything in the Imperium, is there is no standard. It depends on the ordos, the region, and the conclave in question.

These are excellent responses and cleared up that question for me. I'm writing a campaign in my free time and the wiki article on Exterminatus didn't really specify who could order it. Someone should add it!

The thing is, the Imperium is so massive and fragmented that even the people in command don't have a clear picture of all that is going on. The Inquisition might have the official power to order Exterminatus, but the Marines and Navy have the tools for it (and as said often carry it out as the Inquisition's ships might be nowhere near).

So while people like Marneus Calgar might not have official sanction he can do an Exterminatus - and it would be a very ballsy Inquisitor who didn't excuse Calgar as much as humanly possible in his report. It helps if the target wasn't actually very valuable compared to the sheer amount of enemies taken out. Yarrick doing Exterminatus on Armageddon just to kill Ghazgkhull would probably be executed for treason, Hero of the Empire or not.

lol My thoughts exactly.

Marneus: "We will commence exterminatus... "
Inquisitor: "But...."
Marneus: *harsh glare* "WE WILL commence"
Inquisitor: "B---.. uhhh okay..."

There are accounts of Astartes doing exterminatus as well. Makes sense given how independent they are and since Astartes warships are the ones that carry out exterminatus anyway.

Also for operational reasons I really doubt high-ranking Imperial Admirals can't do it either.

From the fluff I have read it seems that Astartes can do it, in the Blood Ravens novels(I know,but they still count) a mere captain orders a couple.

Inquisitors obviously can do it.
I would imagine a Warmaster could order one, and I suspect that if a guard commander and a fleet admiral had a decent working relationship or pressing enough need they would do it as well.

The AdMech almost certainly has the means, and I imagine would Virus Bomb a world or lots if they had proper motivation.

Since Astartes have no authority whatsoever over other imperial organisations i wonder how they can justify declaring exterminatus over a world, especialy imperial ones.

How would Astartes not have power over worlds? They're Adeptus Astartes. They have the Emperors blood in their veins. If anything, they should have even more control and say-so than the ridiculous Inquisition.

I think the reasoning goes: "This world is irrevocably tainted, I happen to have this here battle barge with cyclonic torpedoes, perhaps I can use the latter to solve the former."

IronSnake wrote:How would Astartes not have power over worlds? They're Adeptus Astartes. They have the Emperors blood in their veins. If anything, they should have even more control and say-so than the ridiculous Inquisition.

It doesn't matter whose blood they have in their vains. The Astartes do no longer have any authority over the other imperial organisations. This was part of their reorganisation after the heresy.
Tbh, i would rather trust a learned Inquisitor than some brainwashed psychopath with a superiority complex.

Oh... ok... right.

I'm not particularly sure it takes authority over something to blow it up, I am pretty sure it takes the ability to blow something up to do so.

The Astartes carry Exterminatus weapons for a reason, individuals as low ranking as Captain have gotten away with it in the fluff without serious consequence,

IronSnake wrote:lol My thoughts exactly.

Marneus: "We will commence exterminatus... "
Inquisitor: "But...."
Marneus: *harsh glare* "WE WILL commence"
Inquisitor: "I hereby accuse thee of foul heresy for speaking out against, and attempting to subvert the authority of the most Holy Emperor's Inquisition. You will be confined pending investigation and trial. Suck on that you blue git."

Fixed that for you there. I know it was meant to be a joke, but Calgar could not get away with countermanding an Inquisitors orders, ever, no matter how important he thought he was. The authority of the Inquisition is absolute and no-one is above it. Attempting to subvert that authority is heresy as you're denying an Inquisitor and thus doing the work of the enemy.

Calgar could get away with ordering Exterminatus but if an Inquisitor says "No" then thats the end of the matter. However, Calgar isn't stupid, for all that he's an Ultramarine, and if he reckoned a world should be condemned as Exterminatus then there would be a good reason and the Inquisition would most likely agree with it.

As for Astartes Captains 'getting away' with ordering Exterminatus, if an Inquisitor caught up with them over it they might full-well agree with their reasons for reducing the planet to ash. If they don't, that's it for that Space Marine Captain. Exterminatus is a last resort, when a world/planet is too far gone and there are no other options. This is why Inquisitors are supposed to be the only ones with the authority, officially, to sanction Exterminatus (apart from those few who are granted the authority to order it due to their role). Last thing the Imperium wants to do is destroy planets which could be retaken and still be of use to the Imperium, so having Astartes Captains, Admirals and Lord-Generals running around ordering Exterminatus is generally a bad, bad thing.

The fluff regarding the exterminatus comes from novels, so basically it's a bit fuzzy. As far as I know, Inquisitors have the authority to declare exterminatus, but only the Space Marines are authorized to carry the munitions to perform it (Grey Knights, Deathwatch usually, but any Chapter will do). So, Space Marines can perform exterminatus without an Inquisitor, but will have to explain/justify such an act. And when I mean exterminatus, I mean with virus bombs, cyclonic torpedoes. If it's just a bombardment with lances, nova cannons, ordinary torpedoes, bombardment cannons, then any high ranker could order it.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

Fixed that for you there. I know it was meant to be a joke, but Calgar could not get away with countermanding an Inquisitors orders, ever, no matter how important he thought he was. The authority of the Inquisition is absolute and no-one is above it. Attempting to subvert that authority is heresy as you're denying an Inquisitor and thus doing the work of the enemy.

Calgar could get away with ordering Exterminatus but if an Inquisitor says "No" then thats the end of the matter. However, Calgar isn't stupid, for all that he's an Ultramarine, and if he reckoned a world should be condemned as Exterminatus then there would be a good reason and the Inquisition would most likely agree with it.

As for Astartes Captains 'getting away' with ordering Exterminatus, if an Inquisitor caught up with them over it they might full-well agree with their reasons for reducing the planet to ash. If they don't, that's it for that Space Marine Captain. Exterminatus is a last resort, when a world/planet is too far gone and there are no other options. This is why Inquisitors are supposed to be the only ones with the authority, officially, to sanction Exterminatus (apart from those few who are granted the authority to order it due to their role). Last thing the Imperium wants to do is destroy planets which could be retaken and still be of use to the Imperium, so having Astartes Captains, Admirals and Lord-Generals running around ordering Exterminatus is generally a bad, bad thing.

Um. . . the Space Wolves, at least, have flat-out MURDERED Inquisitors before. Calgar could easily get away with countermanding an Inquisitor's order; what are they going to do, arrest him and spark an open war between the Ultramarines and the Inquisition? That would be the worst civil war since the Horus Heresy. The Imperium would simply kill the Inquisitor who started the whole thing and smooth everything over, rather than risk that.

The Adeptus Astartes are not subject to the authority of the Inquisition, and do not hold it in particularly high respect. Technically, yes, the Inquisition CAN condemn a Space Marine. . . but any Inquisitor who tried to condemn Marneus Calgar would rapidly find that in the Imperium, your authority is limited by the guns at your command, and Marneus Calgar not only has the whole Ultramarines chapter behind him but also the entire Imperial Guard of the Ultramar sector, as well as any Ultramarine successor chapters which were close enough to help. The authority of the Inquisition is LEGALLY unlimited, but in reality the power of any given Inquisitor is highly circumscribed. That seal is supposed to be able to allow you to commandeer any resources you want, but when you're out on the Eastern Fringe alone, with no other Inquisitor within a hundred light-years and every military organization personally loyal to the Ultramarines, your actual power is precisely equal to what you can persuade others to give you. Attempting to arrest or execute a famous, powerful, publicly devout and highly influential individual like Marneus Calgar would be EXTREMELY difficult, if not outright impossible, and I think would more often end with the quiet dropping of all charges and the disappearance of the Inquisitor who tried it.

All that said; Exterminatus doesn't happen very often. It's very much a last resort. Official Exterminatus can only happen on an Imquisitor's command. Unofficially. . . well, if you've got a battlegroup of the Imperial Navy, or any significant fraction of a Chapter fleet, in orbit around a rebel world that isn't giving up no matter how hard you pound it, then you might as well level the place and rebuild from the glass up. A Chapter Master or Warmaster has the authority to do that, even if they don't call it 'Exterminatus'.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Um. . . the Space Wolves, at least, have flat-out MURDERED Inquisitors before.

Now, the Space Wolves are the Space Wolves and break pretty much every other Astartes fluff rule in existence. This should not be taken to mean that any other Marine Chapter can pull off stupid stuff such as taking on an entire Segmentum worth of Imperial Navy and win and all that. This would be like saying every Marine can survive in the warp because of Draigo. Some things might better be regarded with ... how shall we put it ... a certain distance from the more reasonable pieces of background (usually the ones that do not hype a specific character or company and instead focus on the anonymous general standards for a faction).
Of course it's all a matter of interpretations, so no opinion on this can ever be flat-out wrong - I just believe it important to point out that there are some things not quite adding up when you focus on such exceptions and compare them to the rest.

BeRzErKeR wrote:The Adeptus Astartes are not subject to the authority of the Inquisition, [...]

When you look at GW fluff, they are, given that it clearly says in the Inquisition's info that everybody is subject to the Inquisition's authority. Right up to the High Lords of Terra.
You are quite correct regarding the game of influence and politics, however, so it would come down to who makes the better argument. Half the Space Marines of the entire Imperium having defected to Chaos once already means that no-one is ever above suspicion, not even a Marneus Calgar. Not that I believe that Calgar would ever mess up so badly that he creates a situation where his loyalty can truly be called into question in the first place, though. He's no Space Wolf, after all.

The Astartes do fall under the Inquisition's jurisidiction. Inquisition pretty much has jurisdiction over everything but the High Lords, Custodes, and Emperor.

The Astartes primarily have a beef and act independent from the Adeptus Terra and Ecclesiarchy. They tend to have a great respect for the Inquisition and are even fearful of it.

The Alpha Legion

I mean! No, the Inquisition. Yup, always the Inquisition who calls Exterminatus. Never anyone else, no chance of that, no sir. The Inquisition.

If the situation ever arose where Calgar gave an order and an Inquisitor counter-manded it, then I very much doubt that Calgar would override the Inquisitor. Instead he'd most likely listen to the Inquisitors objections or try and sway the Inquisitor. BUT!, as I said Calgar is an experienced leader who has seen more than his share of warfare, and if he believes a planet is so far gone that it has no hope of being saved or ever being use to the Imperium again then I would imagine that Inquisitors would also view it in the same way.

As for the Astartes and the Inquisition? Oh those glory boys are most certainly under the Inquisitions authority. The Inquisition has had entire Chapters wiped out because of a heretical taint and anyone, from the lowliest of scum to the highest ranking Lords of Terra, who does not bow to their authority is putting themselves and others at risk. No-one is above the Inquisition, no-one can subvert the authority of the Inquisition, no-one would dare speak out against the Inquisition and that includes the Emperor's own Astartes.

Lastly, Ultramar. On the Eastern fringe of the Imperium. They have Orks & Tyrannids on one side and the Imperium the other. It's not the Imperium who would risk war with Ultramar but Ultramar who would risk civil war with the Imperium. Ultramar is tiny compared to the rest of the Imperium - 14 worlds compared to a million? Certainly it's a nice buffer zone, but apart from that Ultramar is insignificant compared to the rest of the Imperium. Politically and religiously it would be risky condemning the Ultramar sector as heretics BUT with the right spin on it the Imperium could come out looking the righteous - the Ultramarines have turned against the Imperium and the most Holy God-Emperor, proof that no-one is free from the taint of corruption! Listen to the preachers, to the wise Ecclesiarchy! Only through the God-Emperor can you avoid the fate of the Ultramarines.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:If the situation ever arose where Calgar gave an order and an Inquisitor counter-manded it, then I very much doubt that Calgar would override the Inquisitor. Instead he'd most likely listen to the Inquisitors objections or try and sway the Inquisitor. BUT!, as I said Calgar is an experienced leader who has seen more than his share of warfare, and if he believes a planet is so far gone that it has no hope of being saved or ever being use to the Imperium again then I would imagine that Inquisitors would also view it in the same way.

As for the Astartes and the Inquisition? Oh those glory boys are most certainly under the Inquisitions authority. The Inquisition has had entire Chapters wiped out because of a heretical taint and anyone, from the lowliest of scum to the highest ranking Lords of Terra, who does not bow to their authority is putting themselves and others at risk. No-one is above the Inquisition, no-one can subvert the authority of the Inquisition, no-one would dare speak out against the Inquisition and that includes the Emperor's own Astartes.

Lastly, Ultramar. On the Eastern fringe of the Imperium. They have Orks & Tyrannids on one side and the Imperium the other. It's not the Imperium who would risk war with Ultramar but Ultramar who would risk civil war with the Imperium. Ultramar is tiny compared to the rest of the Imperium - 14 worlds compared to a million? Certainly it's a nice buffer zone, but apart from that Ultramar is insignificant compared to the rest of the Imperium. Politically and religiously it would be risky condemning the Ultramar sector as heretics BUT with the right spin on it the Imperium could come out looking the righteous - the Ultramarines have turned against the Imperium and the most Holy God-Emperor, proof that no-one is free from the taint of corruption! Listen to the preachers, to the wise Ecclesiarchy! Only through the God-Emperor can you avoid the fate of the Ultramarines.

Having the power to wipe a Chapter out is not the same as having it under your authority. Space Marine Chapters are NOT under the authority and control of the Inquisition; an Inquisitor cannot command Space Marines, like he can command the Imperial Guard or the Navy. If the Inquisition wants something from the Adeptus Astartes they must ASK, rather than simply flash their rosette and give an order; and, furthermore, the Space Marines are perfectly within their rights to refuse. That said, antagonizing an Inquisitor is politically damaging, so the Astartes generally accede to Inquisitorial requests whenever possible.

. . . and on the Inquisition's side, I would imagine they are EXTREMELY careful not to ask Space Marines anything they think will be refused. Imagine the political fallout of being turned down cold by Space Marines. At that point, the Inquisitor would basically have two options; back down and accept a serious blow to his prestige, or press the issue and risk permanently damaging the Inquisition's relationship with this Chapter and potentially the Adeptus Astartes as a whole. Whether the Chapter is wiped out or openly defies the Inquisition and suffers no consequences (BOTH of which have happened, in the past), the Imperium as a whole loses.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:If the situation ever arose where Calgar gave an order and an Inquisitor counter-manded it, then I very much doubt that Calgar would override the Inquisitor. Instead he'd most likely listen to the Inquisitors objections or try and sway the Inquisitor. BUT!, as I said Calgar is an experienced leader who has seen more than his share of warfare, and if he believes a planet is so far gone that it has no hope of being saved or ever being use to the Imperium again then I would imagine that Inquisitors would also view it in the same way.

As for the Astartes and the Inquisition? Oh those glory boys are most certainly under the Inquisitions authority. The Inquisition has had entire Chapters wiped out because of a heretical taint and anyone, from the lowliest of scum to the highest ranking Lords of Terra, who does not bow to their authority is putting themselves and others at risk. No-one is above the Inquisition, no-one can subvert the authority of the Inquisition, no-one would dare speak out against the Inquisition and that includes the Emperor's own Astartes.

Lastly, Ultramar. On the Eastern fringe of the Imperium. They have Orks & Tyrannids on one side and the Imperium the other. It's not the Imperium who would risk war with Ultramar but Ultramar who would risk civil war with the Imperium. Ultramar is tiny compared to the rest of the Imperium - 14 worlds compared to a million? Certainly it's a nice buffer zone, but apart from that Ultramar is insignificant compared to the rest of the Imperium. Politically and religiously it would be risky condemning the Ultramar sector as heretics BUT with the right spin on it the Imperium could come out looking the righteous - the Ultramarines have turned against the Imperium and the most Holy God-Emperor, proof that no-one is free from the taint of corruption! Listen to the preachers, to the wise Ecclesiarchy! Only through the God-Emperor can you avoid the fate of the Ultramarines.

Having the power to wipe a Chapter out is not the same as having it under your authority. Space Marine Chapters are NOT under the authority and control of the Inquisition; an Inquisitor cannot command Space Marines, like he can command the Imperial Guard or the Navy. If the Inquisition wants something from the Adeptus Astartes they must ASK, rather than simply flash their rosette and give an order; and, furthermore, the Space Marines are perfectly within their rights to refuse. That said, antagonizing an Inquisitor is politically damaging, so the Astartes generally accede to Inquisitorial requests whenever possible.

. . . and on the Inquisition's side, I would imagine they are EXTREMELY careful not to ask Space Marines anything they think will be refused. Imagine the political fallout of being turned down cold by Space Marines. At that point, the Inquisitor would basically have two options; back down and accept a serious blow to his prestige, or press the issue and risk permanently damaging the Inquisition's relationship with this Chapter and potentially the Adeptus Astartes as a whole. Whether the Chapter is wiped out or openly defies the Inquisition and suffers no consequences (BOTH of which have happened, in the past), the Imperium as a whole loses.

i.e. Celestial Lions. There are other ways to take down a pure Chapter than accusing them."Accidents" do happen...last surviving apothecary shoot on landing...

BeRzErKeR wrote:Space Marine Chapters are NOT under the authority and control of the Inquisition; an Inquisitor cannot command Space Marines, like he can command the Imperial Guard or the Navy.

Actually, officially they can. If you go by GW fluff, that is. It's just that the Chapters have a very independent streak and do not appreciate being ordered around, and it's quite bothersome to put them down as this does not only take a lot of time (when said Inquisitor rather wants to deal with whatever he tried to send the Marines against) but also means that there is one less Marine Chapter in the galaxy, and they are far harder to replace than some rebellious Guard regiment. As unreliable as they may be, keeping them around is still better to than nothing. Additionally, Inquisitors constantly plot against other Inquisitors, and having a Marine Chapter on one's good side means a lot in this game of shadows. All of this has, over the millennia, developed into a tradition of respectfully asking a Chapter rather than commanding it - but on paper, the Inquisition's authority is unlimited.

"Each Inquisitor is a peer of the Imperium, one of a finite elite who hold ultimate authority over mankind. As such, an Inquisitor can recruit any military or civilian force in the pursuit of Imperial duties, from hive world security details through entire Space Marine Chapters, Titan Legions and vessels of the Imperial Navy."
- 5E Rulebook

No, officially they can't, if you go by GW fluff, that is. But they can. The problem is the fluff says BOTH. As you demonstrated with that quote from the 5E rule book, inquisitorial authority is absolute. But numerous SM codex says the opposite, as does the FFG RPG's, and numerous other sources. The problem is the fluff is written by people, people who don't usually know all the fluff out there (were such a thing even possible). So when writing about the inquisition they tend to talk about their unlimited authority, when talking about groups that don't fall under their authority they talk about that. I tend towards the latter interpretation as it is more likely writers about the inquisition didn't know about the AdMech's, SM chapters, and RT's immunity than vice versa, but I can see people going either way.

According to many sources the inquisition doesn't have QUITE the unlimited authority some people claim. They have complete authority over anyone in the Imperium (including the high lords), not over those who you might call 'allied powers within the Imperium', i.e. the Adeptus Mechanus, Space Marine chapters, and Rogue Traders. They are not technically part of the IoM's organization, they assist as they choose, and are not subject to inquisitorial authority.

What they do still have, due to their immense power, is the ability to wage war on whoever they wish by declaring them heretics, which means most groups are wise to do what they say anyways. However, some groups have more power and influence than any single inquisitor (UM and SW being good examples), and so can get away with a lot, even countermanding and assassinating inquisitors.

I would wager the UM and Calgar are even more able to act against the inquisition than the SW, though obviously you can only go so far. With their political and military power, historical importance, and ties within the inquisition, they could get away with a lot if they so chose. But you only have so much good will, act out to much, spend all that political and social currency, and you will eventually find yourself without allies and vulnerable.

It's more of a request from someone at the level of chapter master, likely depending on the rank of the Inquisitor. They could likely order around some chapter's grunts, but mostly it'd be best if they went through the Chapter Master/Captain present.

As for the Exterminatus I think it was only the Inquisition, though there are probably some Chapter Masters capable of making the order. The request goes through to the Ad Mech though which in the end have to decide as they worship the missiles if I remember correctly. I'd guess it'd work similarly to requesting a titan.

Ah, I'm aware that certain sources will most definitely differ from others - especially where the FFG RPGs or various Black Library novels are concerned. But GW's own books such as the Codices? I'd have to re-read them, but I cannot recall any statement that they should be completely out of the Inquisition's reach, only that their independence from the normal chain of command is stressed again and again, which I do not see as contradicting Inquisitorial authority.

And I'd neither call the AdMech nor Marine Chapters "allied" powers. "Alliance" indicates a partnership, where the term "client state" would be much more fitting. At least if, again, one would go by GW sources, which continuously describe Mechanicus worlds as "Imperial planets", the Tech-Priests as having accepted the Emperor as "the ultimate master of mankind" and the Space Marines as "Imperial forces". The whole "allied" bit seems to be stressed by the fans of both sub-factions, but I don't subscribe to it.

In the end, I guess it's all about interpretations, as always and everywhere in 40k. Maybe there even are contradictions in GW books I did not notice yet (or simply forgot), but in this case we can still pick what suits us best.

Which would even be possible if it's just some FFG book that came up with it. I certainly know enough people who now go by the idea that the Deathwatch is completely independent from the Ordo Xenos. Emperor forbid the mighty Space Marines might actually have to follow orders from someone were it otherwise! Yet, that's just as valid as anything else.

In the spirit of taking all fluff as correct, it is also very possible the organizations themselves don't agree on this point. Space Marines, and likely the Ad-Mech and Rogue Traders, seem to take their autonomy from the Imperium as a given where inquisitors likely feel the opposite. In fact this seems far more likely than either interpretation being absolutely correct, and fits both actions behavior.

In the end you have four factions that have the power to effectively wage war upon one another, each believing in their own, God-Emperor given authority in the matter. And so no matter which interpretation is 'correct' (indeed if any of them can be said to be correct) in practice they are 'diplomatic', exchanging favors and performing acts of 'good will'. And when conflicts happen it is the faction that can enforce its will over the other that gets their way, e.g. a space marine chapter gets wiped out or an inquisitor gets assassinated and no one is willing to make an issue of it. A wise man, inquisitor, chapter master, rogue trader, or head fabricator, avoids conflict if the outcome is not clear in advance.

The truth is, in the real world authority between organizations and countries is often not very clear cut, and the one to end up with power in a situation often comes down to the one with the most political clout. I am sure it is the same in the Imperium, and likely to a much greater degree.

So as for me personally, I think I am revising my position to be that SM chapters and such likely do believe the inquisition doesn't have authority over them, inquisitors believe they do, and that explains perfectly why they typically approach each other diplomatically.

Well, on this scale the fluff is (I believe) not exactly written from an in-character point of view, so I would take it as neutral and bereft of such intentional contradictions. If contradictions exist, they do so because the writer alone - be he from GW, FFG or BL - preferred his interpretation of the topic, and according to people like Gav Thorpe this is just how it's meant to work. There's so many things that are utterly incompatible in any case; the question on Inquisitorial authority is just one of many aspects. I go with the universal description in the 5E rulebook as it is meant to explain how the Imperium as a whole works and comes directly from the studio. Doesn't mean that this is any more "right" than any other interpretation, but personally I think this makes the most sense when looking at the larger picture. People will disagree on this, but none of us can be "wrong".

Not that I would disagree on the idea that many Marine Chapters will not agree on the Inquisition having this right, mind you. In the Imperium, it often boils down to "might makes right", and many organizations have overlapping jurisdictions or unilaterally perceived independence/authority, particularly where the Marines or the Ecclesiarchy are involved, which is why it so often comes to blows between the factions involved. Essentially, I agree with about half of what you wrote.

I seemed to be implied in the Inquisition War trilogy that any inquisitor can order one, but they are likely to be questioned over it afterwards, it's not taken lightly.

Public inquiry!

Lynata wrote:Well, on this scale the fluff is (I believe) not exactly written from an in-character point of view, so I would take it as neutral and bereft of such intentional contradictions. If contradictions exist, they do so because the writer alone - be he from GW, FFG or BL - preferred his interpretation of the topic, and according to people like Gav Thorpe this is just how it's meant to work. There's so many things that are utterly incompatible in any case; the question on Inquisitorial authority is just one of many aspects. I go with the universal description in the 5E rulebook as it is meant to explain how the Imperium as a whole works and comes directly from the studio. Doesn't mean that this is any more "right" than any other interpretation, but personally I think this makes the most sense when looking at the larger picture. People will disagree on this, but none of us can be "wrong".

Not that I would disagree on the idea that many Marine Chapters will not agree on the Inquisition having this right, mind you. In the Imperium, it often boils down to "might makes right", and many organizations have overlapping jurisdictions or unilaterally perceived independence/authority, particularly where the Marines or the Ecclesiarchy are involved, which is why it so often comes to blows between the factions involved. Essentially, I agree with about half of what you wrote.

There've been several points at which GW have stated that ALL the fluff, including the stuff they themselves (as opposed to BL) write is biased, incomplete, or otherwise untrustworthy. In essence, it's all IC stuff. Or, at least, that's how I think of it.

Basically, I just interpret the Imperium as being massively more complex than I think a lot of players think of it. It isn't a monolithic organization; it isn't even an empire, really. It's an extremely ad-hoc organization, hammered together under the pressure of constant warfare out of thousands upon thousands of emergency measures. Only the very most important things actually work, and even they move so slowly as to be nearly irrelevant to any single human. There are many seemingly absolute laws, complete with dire punishments attached, but authority and power is so fragmented that most of the time they cannot be enforced; and even when the ability to enforce them exists, often either the will is lacking or the political situation makes it unwise. For instance, the Decree Passive ostensibly forbids the Ecclesiarchy from maintaining men under arms, but even setting aside the sneaky end-run of the Sisters of Battle, there are numerous references in MODERN fluff to the Frateris Militia!

The Inquisition's authority is unlimited, except when it isn't, and yet it is also tightly circumscribed by the real, dangerous power of those around them. Furthermore, the Inquisition is divided against itself; an Inquisitor who takes full advantage of his authority to defy some other powerful Imperial figure has not only antagonized the locals, he cannot even be sure of the support of his own colleagues, and that's assuming there are any colleagues nearby in the first place! The Adeptus Astartes are fiercely independent yet totally loyal, and at the same time thousands of them have gone renegade while others openly defy Imperial organizations (such as the Inquisition) and enforce THEIR version of Imperial rule, which is the same in the broad strokes but varies in detail. The Adeptus Mechanicus is technically an entirely DIFFERENT state, complete with their own (heretical, by Imperial standards) state religion.

So, legally, Inquisitors and ONLY Inquisitors can order Exterminatus. In reality, anyone in command of a vessel capable of destroying a planet can do so. Whether they face any hard questions over it depends on what organization they belong to, where they are, the situation in that region at the time, and how powerful they are.

BeRzErKeR wrote:There've been several points at which GW have stated that ALL the fluff, including the stuff they themselves (as opposed to BL) write is biased, incomplete, or otherwise untrustworthy. In essence, it's all IC stuff. Or, at least, that's how I think of it.

Well, even following this perspective, an IC chronology dealing with the Imperium as a whole (or even the entire galaxy with all the playable races, as the rulebooks contain descriptions on all of them) would still have less bias than one focusing on either the Marines or the Inquisition alone. This is just to explain my reasoning, though - when it comes down to it, there are surprisingly few "hard truths" concerning the background, the overlapping consistency between the various interpretations being limited to the most basic stuff such as the Emperor being the boss and Terra being the capital. Which makes discussing topics such as this one so difficult.

BeRzErKeR wrote:In reality, anyone in command of a vessel capable of destroying a planet can do so. Whether they face any hard questions over it depends on what organization they belong to, where they are, the situation in that region at the time, and how powerful they are.

That is most definitively true, human beings are capable of independent thought, after all. And in theory, even Corporal Joe Smith from the Umpteenth Random Grenadiers regiment could say "no" to an Inquisitor - just that his chance of surviving such open display of insubordination would be noticeably smaller than those of a Space Marine, in practice leading to a nigh-100% quota of deference.

The High Lords, Inquisitors, and Space Marines have the authority to order exterminatus.

Only Space Marines and the Inquisition have access to the equipment required to conduct an exterminatus. Virus Bombs and Clyclonic torpedos specifically. Both are standard equipment on an Astartes Battle Barge. The Inquisition has catches scattered about the galaxy at their headquarters.

Most of the time the Inquisition doesn't have the time to go to their own caches to equip the Imperial Navy ships they have under their control and so they have to call up the nearest SM chapter and say "Yo, I need's some Virus bombs dropped. Can you help me out over here?"

and is there any Inquisition-owned ships has "exterminatus" weapons? or only Space Marines ship carry that weapons so that the power balancing can be maintained (and the Inquisitors will not blown away any planet at whim, without proof that a planet harbors a dangerous heresy)

I believe the Inquisition does have ships that carry the weapons, but most of the time Inquisitors arn't traveling around in their big black ships which are just screaming "Inquisitions here, everybody run!!!"

Hence why they most often have to beg space marines to come and do the Exterminatus for them.

I think the question on whether and what kind of ships the Inquisition has depends a lot on where you look as well. Aside from the Black Ships, I've seen various licensed products deal with the subject - the Dark Millennium TCG had a whole set of Inquisitorial warships participating in the Pyrus Reach conflict (examples: [1], [2], [3]), and the Daemonifuge comics had Inquisition cruisers as well. Then again, the latter also had the Lunar-class cruiser "Hammer of Thor" as an Ecclesiarchy fleet flagship, but hey.

The Frateris Militia isn't a standing army, it's a militia. Most of them don't even have guns. This does not violate the Decree Passive, as the Ecclesiarchy doesn't arm them, give them uniforms, or even train them.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:

IronSnake wrote:lol My thoughts exactly.

Marneus: "We will commence exterminatus... "
Inquisitor: "But...."
Marneus: *harsh glare* "WE WILL commence"
Inquisitor: "I hereby accuse thee of foul heresy for speaking out against, and attempting to subvert the authority of the most Holy Emperor's Inquisition. You will be confined pending investigation and trial. Suck on that you blue git."

Fixed that for you there. I know it was meant to be a joke, but Calgar could not get away with countermanding an Inquisitors orders, ever, no matter how important he thought he was. The authority of the Inquisition is absolute and no-one is above it. Attempting to subvert that authority is heresy as you're denying an Inquisitor and thus doing the work of the enemy.

Calgar could get away with ordering Exterminatus but if an Inquisitor says "No" then thats the end of the matter. However, Calgar isn't stupid, for all that he's an Ultramarine, and if he reckoned a world should be condemned as Exterminatus then there would be a good reason and the Inquisition would most likely agree with it.

As for Astartes Captains 'getting away' with ordering Exterminatus, if an Inquisitor caught up with them over it they might full-well agree with their reasons for reducing the planet to ash. If they don't, that's it for that Space Marine Captain. Exterminatus is a last resort, when a world/planet is too far gone and there are no other options. This is why Inquisitors are supposed to be the only ones with the authority, officially, to sanction Exterminatus (apart from those few who are granted the authority to order it due to their role). Last thing the Imperium wants to do is destroy planets which could be retaken and still be of use to the Imperium, so having Astartes Captains, Admirals and Lord-Generals running around ordering Exterminatus is generally a bad, bad thing.

Well I highly doubt Calgar would ever contemplate Exterminatus without good reason. It would be more like this:

Marneus: "We should commence exterminatus"
Inquisitor: "I concur"
*exterminatus jig dance commences*
*high fives*

Panopticon wrote:From the fluff I have read it seems that Astartes can do it, in the Blood Ravens novels(I know,but they still count) a mere captain orders a couple.

Which Captain? Angelos? Just that in Dawn of War, it's explicitly stated that he requested an exterminatus of Cyrene. Not sure about any other places though.

KingDeath wrote:Since Astartes have no authority whatsoever over other imperial organisations i wonder how they can justify declaring exterminatus over a world, especialy imperial ones.

Astartes might be outside the normal Imperial chain of command, but that's a far cry from saying they have no authority over other Imperial organisations.

daveNYC wrote:Astartes might be outside the normal Imperial chain of command, but that's a far cry from saying they have no authority over other Imperial organisations.

Well, respect and authority are two different things. The Horus Heresy pretty much ended the latter, removing direct command over the Imperial Army (which became split up into Navy and Guard) from the Astartes.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Panopticon wrote:From the fluff I have read it seems that Astartes can do it, in the Blood Ravens novels(I know,but they still count) a mere captain orders a couple.

Which Captain? Angelos? Just that in Dawn of War, it's explicitly stated that he requested an exterminatus of Cyrene. Not sure about any other places though.

Dawn of War: Ascension; Angelos ordered exterminatus on Rahe's Paradise, a BR recruiting world that was a Necron Tomb. Apparently, either the Blood Angels or the Thousand Sons sealed the Necron Tomb during the Great Crusade with the Eldar's help. No further spoilers.

I was under the impression that only an Inquisitor can give the order but that Astartes battle barges carried the payload. The only use it when summoned by Inqs to do so.

No, they can do it as long as they can justify themselves before the Inquisition. Don't forget, orders from a ranking Astartes officer supersede all Imperial organizations barring the High Lords of Terra. The Inquisition may override them, but the Astartes military mandate matches that of the Commissariat and the Inquisition (in their case, they can use it any time, while the Astartes and the Commissariat can only use their mandate in wartime).

Tadashi wrote:No, they can do it as long as they can justify themselves before the Inquisition. Don't forget, orders from a ranking Astartes officer supersede all Imperial organizations barring the High Lords of Terra. The Inquisition may override them, but the Astartes military mandate matches that of the Commissariat and the Inquisition (in their case, they can use it any time, while the Astartes and the Commissariat can only use their mandate in wartime).

The authority of an Astartes officer is way below that of the Inquisition, as an Inquisitors authority does cover everyone from the scummiest mutant to the High Lords of Terra. The military mandate of the Inquisition is greater than that of the Astartes in that the Inquisition can 'request', re: order, the Astartes about. Whilst the Astartes might start to act like children, resenting being told what to do and whining about it, the Inquisition has that level of authority and everyone bows before it.

When it comes to justifying actions, I can't see the Inquisition being particularly pleased with an Astartes Captain who took it upon themselves to annihilate a planet for which the Inquisition may, possibly, have had a means of retaking or a plan for. Members of the Inquisition have to justify their actions and 'clean up' after themselves. If they then have to start clearing up mess caused by Astartes going beyond their mandate, then the Inquisition are going to investigate and God-Emperor help those who they find wanting in the course of their duty.

Only the Inquisition truly has the authority for Exterminatus. Anyone else doing it had better have a bloody good reason or they're going to be spending more than a little time on a Black Ship of the Inquisition, unless they're executed first.

Astartes aren't stupid. Usually, only Chapter Masters order exterminatus, but Captains rarely if ever give the order. In any, case, Astartes only order exterminatus when the situation is really hopeless, or it isn't worth spilling blood for, and the Inquisition usually agrees.

While technically the Inquisition has authority over Astartes, the actual situation is different.

The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified. Only a stupid Inquisitor exercises his authority over space marines forcefully. The Inquisition knows they have very little real ability to force space marines to do anything, hence they try to stay on the space marine's good side. If an inquisitor goes and mouths off to a chapter that refuses his order, the most likely outcome is the inquisitor getting repremanded and the chapter getting an apology from his superior. When a Chapter Master says "no", he usually has a damn good reason that the inquisition will agree with.

Grey Templar wrote:While technically the Inquisition has authority over Astartes, the actual situation is different.

The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified. Only a stupid Inquisitor exercises his authority over space marines forcefully. The Inquisition knows they have very little real ability to force space marines to do anything, hence they try to stay on the space marine's good side. If an inquisitor goes and mouths off to a chapter that refuses his order, the most likely outcome is the inquisitor getting repremanded and the chapter getting an apology from his superior. When a Chapter Master says "no", he usually has a damn good reason that the inquisition will agree with.

If the Inquisition approaches the Astartes then the Astartes know that the Inquisition has no-one else who can do what they need done and that the situation is certainly dire. The Inquisition can call upon their own personal armies, their Ordo's Chamber Militant, the Imperial Guard & Navy, PDF, mercenaries, but should it get to a certain point and they need the Astartes, the Space Marines are not going to deny an Inquisitor because who else is there that can do what the Inquisition needs done? They wouldn't call upon a Chapter to 'borrow a Tactical Squad for 10 minutes' to clear out a cult. They only use the Emperor's Angels of Death when they need to and it's only a stupid Chapter-Master with no understanding of what is at stake that would refuse an Inquisitor. Refusing an Inquisitor is a bad, bad thing to do. You're obstructing the Inquisition, aiding and abetting the enemy and the Inquisition will not take that kindly. The Chapter-Master may sign his own death-warrant by refusing the Inquisition unless he has an unbelievebly undeniably superb reason. If he hasn't then the Officio Assassinorum is right at the Inquisitions beck and call and nothing will save an Astartes from a turbo-penetrator round to their head.

The situation is that it suits the Inquisition to not tread on the Astartes toes unless they really, really need them and have no choice but to 'request' them to do what needs to be done, but when they do call upon the Space Marines it is wise for the Astartes to do as requested. It's a bit like the relationship between the Imperium & Adeptus Mechanicus - wary of each other but will help the other out when needed and I'm sure the Astartes do need the Inquisition - after all, who roots out the cults on the Astartes recruitment worlds without causing disruption or destruction to the planet? Imagine Astartes trying to investigate cults?

(As for 'Emperor personified', they haven't got a great track record have they? Half their Legions turned to the Ruinous Powers, although one or two were shoved rather than seduced to it, and lose Astartes to the Ruinous Powers continually. Good job the Inquisition keeps an eye on them, eh?)

Grey Templar wrote:The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified.

I really doubt the Inquisition believes this; for the most part Inquisitors seem to be either surprisingly secular, and those few who are religious nutjobs (such as former Sororitas) dislike the Marines specifically because of the perceived "heresies" against the Imperial Creed as teached by the Ecclesiarchy. Additionally, they are all well aware of the risk of sedition within the Astartes (most notably the Horus Heresy), robbing them of the myth of being "the Emperor's will personified". When you go by the intro in GW's Inquisitor RPG, some of the Inquisition's most powerful leaders don't even care at all what the Emperor may wish - given that they prevent Him from being reborn and wish to keep him interred as a figurehead on the Golden Throne.

When Inquisitors don't act on a Marine Chapter's refusal, they do so only because they believe that it isn't worth the time/resources, or because a rival Inquisitor who has a better relationship with that Chapter is able to block any plans for revenge.

In GW's Citadel Magazine #49, Andy Hoare once wrote an interesting article on this subject, and personally I think that the idea of a conclave sounds reasonable, as a successful resolution would create a political barrier hard to overrule by any single Astartes-friendly Inquisitor, unless he has more influence than the members of said conclave combined:

"Another thankfully rare task of these forces is to hold in check the power of the Space Marine Chapters. The relationship between the Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Ministorum is at times strained, as some Chapters adhere to their own views of the Imperial Creed. In any other organisation this would result in excommunication, but the Space Marines are of course a rather special case. However, the Ordo Hereticus still maintains a watch over those Chapters who they suspect of having diverged too far from approved dogma. In such cases a Conclave of Inquisitors will decide upon a course of action, and should an armed response be required this will often be entrusted to the Adepta Sororitas."

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified.

I really doubt the Inquisition believes this

Yeah, because they aren't.

The Living Saints are the Emperor's will personified. Astartes are as beneath Living Saints in authority as the common peasant is beneath a world's governor.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified.

I really doubt the Inquisition believes this

Yeah, because they aren't.

The Living Saints are the Emperor's will personified. Astartes are as beneath Living Saints in authority as the common peasant is beneath a world's governor.

The Inquisition is the Emperor's Will, the Astartes are the Sword of the Emperor. Buuuuut, if the Emperor came back and saw the Ecclesiarchy, He would be disappoint. As for Astartes ignoring the Inquisition, they can, and they do. The 13th Black Crusade for example: as heretical cults began popping up, Inquisitors asking for help found Astartes Chapters refusing as they preferred to head for the Eye of Terror to join the battle. In other words, if they have good enough reason, an Inquisitor can't really force the Astartes to do anything. The Conclaves prefer to stay on generally the Astartes' good side, and if the Chapters' reason is acceptable, then they will generally prefer to side with the Astartes rather than any individual Inquisitor.

Tadashi wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:The Inquisition knows the Astartes are the Emperor's will personified.

I really doubt the Inquisition believes this

Yeah, because they aren't.

The Living Saints are the Emperor's will personified. Astartes are as beneath Living Saints in authority as the common peasant is beneath a world's governor.

The Inquisition is the Emperor's Will, the Astartes are the Sword of the Emperor. Buuuuut, if the Emperor came back and saw the Ecclesiarchy, He would be disappoint. As for Astartes ignoring the Inquisition, they can, and they do. The 13th Black Crusade for example: as heretical cults began popping up, Inquisitors asking for help found Astartes Chapters refusing as they preferred to head for the Eye of Terror to join the battle. In other words, if they have good enough reason, an Inquisitor can't really force the Astartes to do anything. The Conclaves prefer to stay on generally the Astartes' good side, and if the Chapters' reason is acceptable, then they will generally prefer to side with the Astartes rather than any individual Inquisitor.

But it can also be noted that Chapters will also often times help the Inquisition, because as far as brownie points go, the Inquisition ones are worth the most.

Yes, and usually when the Inquisition calls, it means the mission isn't a walk in the park. The Astartes will only refuse if there's something more important going on, like an Imperial Crusade they're involved in, or are heading for a critical war zone like the Eye of Terror, Damocles, Medusa V, Armageddon, etc.

Tadashi wrote:Buuuuut, if the Emperor came back and saw the Ecclesiarchy, He would be disappoint.

Definitively - I was merely referring to the actual political situation right now, as that is what counts.

Also, thanks for giving me the mental image of the Emperor going "Son, I am disappoint".

I've always pictured the Emperor as sounding something like Samuel L. Jackson.

"Say Chaos, motherfether! Say Chaos one more god-d*mned time!"

"High Gothic, motherfether, do you speak it?"

"Now, hand me my power-claw. It's the one that says 'Badass Motherfether' on it!"

@ Psieneus. /samjacksonvoice "IMMA TAKE THE FIGHT TO HORUS' FLAGSHIP MOTHAF*ERS, WHO IS WITH ME?"



I do not believe Astartes concern themselves with brownie points. And I don't think they give a flying rats butt what the Inquisition thinks about their own power and what not. I certainly wouldn't. I view the Astartes, Grey Knights, and Custodes as above the stupid Inquisition. And so should they. They are the backbone of the Imperium.

If a SM Chapter helps the Inquisition then it's simply because it's a good idea and the right thing to do. If they pass on offering their help then they have a better or bigger battle to wage elsewhere.

Most SM chapters, excepting the handful of surviving First Founding Legions, and the Chapters they split into, know not to piss off the Inquisition. The Inquisition, after all, has Space Marines of their own.

While the Inquisition doesn't run rough-shod over the Astartes and their sense of semi-independence, the Astartes still answer to the Inquisition when it comes to the things the Inquisition cares about. Purity of gene-seed, purity of spirit, purity of purpose, upholding the will of the God-Emperor, that sort of thing.

A Chapter that is found wanting is exterminated.

I understand that. But it seems to me like there are people in this thread and on the forum as a whole, who think the Astartes whimper and cringe to the Inquisition. I've never seen this displayed in any of the fluff or video games.

It's in both of their interests to get along. Captain Titus in the game "Space Marine" gets right in the face of that inquisitor at the end and willingly accompanies him. He showed no fear at all. I don't think any SM Chapter 'fears' the Inquisition. They merely have a mutual respect. As it should be.

Who are these people? If anything, I see a lot of posters who think that Marines don't have to answer to anyone, because the Inquisition would do nothing but puss out once some Chapter Master tells them to STFU.

Not that people wouldn't be free to believe either option if they so wish. After all, this franchise is big on individual interpretations over comprehensive consistency.

As for the supposed backbone of the Imperium, I'd say that this role clearly falls to the Imperial Guard, sorry. The Marines are neither numerous nor reliable enough to do their job.

If it were not for the Astartes, the Imperium would collapse. But... yeah if there was no IG the Imperium would collapse as well. But when the going gets super tough, the Astartes are called upon.

And no, the Astartes do not have to "answer" to anyone. They will, however, work with the Inquisition if asked 9 times out of 10 for the betterment of the Imperium.

I'd say the Imperium would be fine without the Astartes. There doesn't seem to be a problem that cannot be solved by throwing waves upon waves of bodies at it - save the problems that seem unsolvable anyways. The Space Marines are arguably the most powerful warriors of the Imperium, but their numbers are too small to make a true difference. Their actions are like a drop of water in the desert, easily changing the course of a battle, but not changing the course of the war. To make matters worse, the Traitor Legions are also amongst mankind's greatest enemies, and every so often their ranks get bolstered by a Chapter gone rogue. It almost seems to me as if the Astartes are more trouble than they are worth. Could the Horus Heresy have happened without the Space Marines?

In short: Space Marines win battles. The Imperial Guard wins the wars.

As for who the Astartes have to answer to - I know a few Inquisitors who might be inclined to disagree.

No way in hell would the Imperium be fine and dandy without the Astartes.

There is a reason the Emperor created the Space Marines. And that reason is still valid 10,000 years after his interment in the Golden Throne. Too small to make a difference? Had it not been for the Ultramarines the galaxy would be plagued by the unstoppable full force of Hive Fleet Behemoth. Also without the Grey Knights and Custodes (who are by all means, Astartes), the Imperium would have no greater defenses from Daemons and other foul Warp critters.

How could the only force capable of defending humanity against certain forces be more trouble than they are worth? The HH happening with or without SM's is neither here nor there. Games Workshop has created this fictional universe for a reason. And the Astartes are, much to the chagrin of too many people who are a fan of GW, the focal point of their fictional story.

Lynata wrote:I'd say the Imperium would be fine without the Astartes. There doesn't seem to be a problem that cannot be solved by throwing waves upon waves of bodies at it - save the problems that seem unsolvable anyways. The Space Marines are arguably the most powerful warriors of the Imperium, but their numbers are too small to make a true difference. Their actions are like a drop of water in the desert, easily changing the course of a battle, but not changing the course of the war. To make matters worse, the Traitor Legions are also amongst mankind's greatest enemies, and every so often their ranks get bolstered by a Chapter gone rogue. It almost seems to me as if the Astartes are more trouble than they are worth. Could the Horus Heresy have happened without the Space Marines?

In short: Space Marines win battles. The Imperial Guard wins the wars.

As for who the Astartes have to answer to - I know a few Inquisitors who might be inclined to disagree.

That's where your wrong, my friend. There are some enemies the Guard just can't handle. A full on daemonic incursion, as in just daemons and no mortal components, would be unstoppable by normal troops. Most of them would go mad and join Chaos. The Eldar, too, would tear Guardsmen to shreds, as would the Necrons. Heck, even Astartes have difficulty with Necrons. I'm not saying Astartes are perfect, it's just that they are still important aspects of the Imperium.

As to who the Astartes answer to, it's simple their Chapter Master, who answers to the Emperor, as stated in Index Astartes. No matter what the Inquisition thinks, the Astartes are not under their complete control. You'd raise eyebrows among the Astartes and even the Conclaves if you start saying that, maybe to the point that they'll condemn you by saying that you're unnecessarily antagonizing the Astartes/disrupting the balance of power in the Imperium.,

They aren't under their complete control but when it comes down to it if an Inquisitr is asking for an SM chapter's support he isn't doing it for the giggles so the chapter better get their ship together and go kick what needs to be kicked.
The Inquisition technically speak with the authority of the Emperor and so the SM do answer to them. Though mst Inquisitors are smart enough to know that SM get pig headed if you try to order them to do anything so asking is a better tactic...

Spetulhu wrote:The thing is, the Imperium is so massive and fragmented that even the people in command don't have a clear picture of all that is going on. The Inquisition might have the official power to order Exterminatus, but the Marines and Navy have the tools for it (and as said often carry it out as the Inquisition's ships might be nowhere near).

So while people like Marneus Calgar might not have official sanction he can do an Exterminatus - and it would be a very ballsy Inquisitor who didn't excuse Calgar as much as humanly possible in his report. It helps if the target wasn't actually very valuable compared to the sheer amount of enemies taken out. Yarrick doing Exterminatus on Armageddon just to kill Ghazgkhull would probably be executed for treason, Hero of the Empire or not.

Agreed. Pretty much anyone with the right tools can order an Exterminatus, but there will always be scrutiny and investigation after the fact. Inquisitor Darkhammer ordered an exterminatus on Cavlock, and was declared excommunicate traitorus for his efforts, after all.

Any ships captain that happens to have virus bombs on board, or can otherwise carry out an exterminatus, can do so. But if the Inquisition decides he messed up, he'll probably have his mind slowly flayed over a decade, and his crew tortured to death. Gotta make an example and keep the status quo, after all.

purplefood wrote:They aren't under their complete control but when it comes down to it if an Inquisitr is asking for an SM chapter's support he isn't doing it for the giggles so the chapter better get their sheep together and go kick what needs to be kicked.
The Inquisition technically speak with the authority of the Emperor and so the SM do answer to them. Though mst Inquisitors are smart enough to know that SM get pig headed if you try to order them to do anything so asking is a better tactic...

All true. But, even if an Inquisitor has good reason, when a Chapter refuses, they also have good reason. Look at the 13th Black Crusade, even as heretical cults began popping up and the Inquisition starts asking for help, the Astartes refused, saying their strength is more important at the Eye of Terror.

And some Chapters are untouchable, like the Second Founding ones and the Grey Knights. The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it. Grey Knights Purifiers are empowered to execute anyone they see unclean, barring the Emperor, so even Inquisitors have to be wary around the Grey Knights (still hate their new Codex though). And the Blood Ravens; the Ordo Hereticus suspects (correctly) that the Blood Ravens are conducting potentially heretical research in the Librarium Sanctorum, but someone high up, probably the Ordo Malleus and the Mechanicus, are blocking their inquiries. In short, if you have history or connections (or both) on your side, the Inquisition has difficulty asserting authority over you.

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:They aren't under their complete control but when it comes down to it if an Inquisitr is asking for an SM chapter's support he isn't doing it for the giggles so the chapter better get their sheep together and go kick what needs to be kicked.
The Inquisition technically speak with the authority of the Emperor and so the SM do answer to them. Though mst Inquisitors are smart enough to know that SM get pig headed if you try to order them to do anything so asking is a better tactic...

All true. But, even if an Inquisitor has good reason, when a Chapter refuses, they also have good reason. Look at the 13th Black Crusade, even as heretical cults began popping up and the Inquisition starts asking for help, the Astartes refused, saying their strength is more important at the Eye of Terror.

And some Chapters are untouchable, like the Second Founding ones and the Grey Knights. The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it. Grey Knights Purifiers are empowered to execute anyone they see unclean, barring the Emperor, so even Inquisitors have to be wary around the Grey Knight (still hate their new Codex though). And the Blood Ravens; the Ordo Hereticus suspects (correctly) that the Blood Ravens are conducting potentially heretical research in the Librarium Sanctorum, but someone high up, probably the Ordo Malleus and the Mechanicus, are blocking their inquiries. In short, if you have history or connections (or both) on your side, the Inquisition has difficulty to assert it's authority on you.

Most of those chapters have political connections...
The SW, for example, have friends in every organisation. AdMech, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition. They owe and are owed favours from almost every arm of the Imperium.
The 13th Black Crusade was an exception rather than a rule. There will be times when a chapter cannot assist an Inquisitor but those times tend to be all out invasions or when the chapter is severely understrength.
GK have always had purview to execute Inquisitors they find heretical. It's just that few are dumb enough to be heretical in front of a GK...
Blood Ravens just haven't let the Inquisition find any proof...

purplefood wrote:
Blood Ravens just haven't let the Inquisition find any proof...

And the inquiries concerning gene-seed (Thousand Sons/Sons of Horus?) are blocked by someone high up in the Mechanicus. And the Ordo Malleus probably knows something, since they were the one who could have sealed pre-M37 Blood Raven histories, and that Grey Knights were involved in the Dark Crusade (with no mention of post-campaign mindwipe) indicates the Blood Ravens are also well-connected.

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Blood Ravens just haven't let the Inquisition find any proof...

And the inquiries concerning gene-seed (Thousand Sons/Sons of Horus?) are blocked by someone high up in the Mechanicus. And the Ordo Malleus probably knows something, since they were the one who could have sealed pre-M37 Blood Raven histories, and that Grey Knights were involved in the Dark Crusade (with no mention of post-campaign mindwipe) indicates the Blood Ravens are also well-connected.

Yeah but even connections don't help if you have the kind of wide scale heresy that the BR did.
As it is their... inconsistancies are ebign covered by either friends they know they have or friends they don't know they have...

Apparently, those friends don't want the Blood Ravens to disappear, since their research could be potentially useful to the Imperium, or would seriously piss the Knights off.

Tadashi wrote:The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it.

Technically, they can always simply attack. The only question is whether the individual who organizes a strike has the pull to request a force large enough to deal with the situation.

For what its worth, "skirmishes" between the Astartes and various Imperial forces closer to Terra happen all the time.

purplefood wrote:The SW, for example, have friends in every organisation. AdMech, Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition. They owe and are owed favours from almost every arm of the Imperium.

Huh? Granted, I haven't heard anything about the Mechanicus, but at least concerning the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition I have heard nothing but enmity. In their history, the Space Wolves have quarreled with pretty much every Imperial organization in existence (with the exception of the AdMech, though that is just to my knowledge) and suffered several full-scale assaults on their homeworld from said factions. The only reason they're still around is because they are protected by their popularity amongst the playerbase; GW cannot afford to simply "squat" them.

Though it begs the question as to why they keep writing up these conflicts if they know full well that there cannot be any consequences to them. Sometimes, this eternal stalemate is really annoying. Anyhow, what friends do they have, exactly?

Tadashi wrote:All true. But, even if an Inquisitor has good reason, when a Chapter refuses, they also have good reason

Incorrect. Unless privy to breaking news, an Astartes chapter will never have all the information. For example:

The 13th Black Crusade. Inquisitor discovers a dimensional forge that if recovered and deployed to Cadia could prevent any and all Daemonic incursions, and could concievably 'shut down' part of the Eye of Terror itself, ending the 13th Black Crusade early.

He requests the aid of the Astartes, who refuse because they have 'a good reason' of going to fight at the Eye.

This is obviously a hypothetical, but it's an example of what could happen. An Inquisitor asks what he asks because he KNOWS what the best use of the Astartes is, while the Astartes themselves do not.

Tadashi wrote:And some Chapters are untouchable, like the Second Founding ones and the Grey Knights. The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it. Grey Knights Purifiers are empowered to execute anyone they see unclean, barring the Emperor, so even Inquisitors have to be wary around the Grey Knights (still hate their new Codex though). And the Blood Ravens; the Ordo Hereticus suspects (correctly) that the Blood Ravens are conducting potentially heretical research in the Librarium Sanctorum, but someone high up, probably the Ordo Malleus and the Mechanicus, are blocking their inquiries. In short, if you have history or connections (or both) on your side, the Inquisition has difficulty asserting authority over you.

Firstly, no. Purifiers DO NOT have a blanket authority to execute anyone who isn't entirely pure of spirit. Secondly, ANY chapter that crosses the line will be declared Excommunicate Traitorus. Even the Ultramarines or Black Templars. The Inquisition may not like the Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Iron Hands, but none of those chapters have actively crossed the line.

I mean, just look at the Badab war! Authority ultimately rests with the Inquisition, not the Marines.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it.

Technically, they can always simply attack. The only question is whether the individual who organizes a strike has the pull to request a force large enough to deal with the situation.

Yeah, and risk incurring the wrath of all Chapters descended from those Chapters. The Conclaves aren't gonna be pleased either, seeing as this would be extremely disturbing to the Imperium's balance of power.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And some Chapters are untouchable, like the Second Founding ones and the Grey Knights. The Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy are very distrustful of the Iron Hands (because of their Mechanicum connections), the Space Wolves (they're too independent), and the Dark Angels (too secretive) but can't do anything about it. Grey Knights Purifiers are empowered to execute anyone they see unclean, barring the Emperor, so even Inquisitors have to be wary around the Grey Knights (still hate their new Codex though). And the Blood Ravens; the Ordo Hereticus suspects (correctly) that the Blood Ravens are conducting potentially heretical research in the Librarium Sanctorum, but someone high up, probably the Ordo Malleus and the Mechanicus, are blocking their inquiries. In short, if you have history or connections (or both) on your side, the Inquisition has difficulty asserting authority over you.

Firstly, no. Purifiers DO NOT have a blanket authority to execute anyone who isn't entirely pure of spirit. Secondly, ANY chapter that crosses the line will be declared Excommunicate Traitorus. Even the Ultramarines or Black Templars. The Inquisition may not like the Dark Angels, Space Wolves or Iron Hands, but none of those chapters have actively crossed the line.

I mean, just look at the Badab war! Authority ultimately rests with the Inquisition, not the Marines.

You can't touch the Ultramarines! All Ultramarines-descended Chapters would go up in flames, and that means 3/5ths of the Astartes. You'd have the entire Ultramarines Legion marching towards Terra if you do that, and there's no telling how many other Chapters/Legions would side with them, or for that matter Mechanicum, Guard , Naval elements.

And yes, Purifiers do have blanket authority. It says so in Codex: Grey Knights, courtesy of Matt Ward.

Tadashi wrote:You can't touch the Ultramarines! All Ultramarines-descended Chapters would go up in flames, and that means 3/5ths of the Astartes. You'd have the entire Ultramarines Legion marching towards Terra if you do that, and there's no telling how many other Chapters/Legions would side with them, or for that matter Mechanicum, Guard , Naval elements.

Anyone, under the right circumstances, can and will be touched. Ultramarines or not, they can and will be destroyed if necessary. Why would ANY of their successor chapters join their side if they are declared heretics and traitors? Who says their successor chapters would join their side ANYWAY? Maybe a lot of them resent the Ultramarines for their elevated status and glory? Maybe a lot of the would jump at the opportunity to prove that they are superior to the Ultras?

And yes, Purifiers do have blanket authority. It says so in Codex: Grey Knights, courtesy of Matt Ward.

I've got the Grey Knight codex right in front of me. It doesn't say that anywhere.

What does it say exactly? As for the Ultramarines, it's gonna set a bad precedent, and could set off a massive civil war that could mark the beginning of the end...and even if they do have bad blood with their parent Chapter, they'll still come to their aid; look at the Baal Crisis - when Lord Dante called, even renegade Blood Angel descendants and those who don't get along well with the parent Chapter came. Blood is thicker than water still holds true in 40k.

Tadashi wrote:Yeah, and risk incurring the wrath of all Chapters descended from those Chapters. The Conclaves aren't gonna be pleased either, seeing as this would be extremely disturbing to the Imperium's balance of power.

Well, last time Fenris was attacked by Imperial forces, the Space Wolves were on their own. The time before that, they were on their own also. They seem to be pretty much the - wait for it - lone wolves in the Imperium.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Yeah, and risk incurring the wrath of all Chapters descended from those Chapters. The Conclaves aren't gonna be pleased either, seeing as this would be extremely disturbing to the Imperium's balance of power.

Well, last time Fenris was attacked by Imperial forces, the Space Wolves were on their own. The time before that, they were on their own also. They seem to be pretty much the - wait for it - lone wolves in the Imperium.

The Dark Angels and the other Unforgiven count for 1/5th of all Astartes. Attacking would not be wise.

Tadashi wrote:The Dark Angels and the other Unforgiven count for 1/5th of all Astartes. Attacking would not be wise.

It's not a case of whether or not it would be wise. Only the inquisitor in question would know if it were wise or not.

But if it was deemed necessary, then the Inquisition would do so.

The Astartes in theory don't answer to the Adeptus Terra or Ecclesiarchy, this is mostly true (though the Astartes still often do follow them de facto in certain areas and certainly don't want to mess with them).

However the Inquisition's full title is the Emperor's Holy Inquisition. It was set up by the Emperor himself and is supposed to be his right hand. That is why the Astartes have so much more respect for it, imo. That and Inquisitors are competent/skilled individuals who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty, as opposed to the rich corrupt Ecclesiarchy Cardinal or Administratum bureaucrat.

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:You can't touch the Ultramarines! All Ultramarines-descended Chapters would go up in flames, and that means 3/5ths of the Astartes. You'd have the entire Ultramarines Legion marching towards Terra if you do that, and there's no telling how many other Chapters/Legions would side with them, or for that matter Mechanicum, Guard , Naval elements.

Anyone, under the right circumstances, can and will be touched. Ultramarines or not, they can and will be destroyed if necessary. Why would ANY of their successor chapters join their side if they are declared heretics and traitors? Who says their successor chapters would join their side ANYWAY? Maybe a lot of them resent the Ultramarines for their elevated status and glory? Maybe a lot of the would jump at the opportunity to prove that they are superior to the Ultras?

And yes, Purifiers do have blanket authority. It says so in Codex: Grey Knights, courtesy of Matt Ward.

I've got the Grey Knight codex right in front of me. It doesn't say that anywhere.

You're off-base here. You are assuming that Space Marines care about elevated status and brownie points. I don't think a lot of people truly understand Space Marines. They are devoted to the cause of protecting the Imperium. Extremely so. The Emperor's blood runs THROUGH THEIR VEINS. Can the same be said for the Inquisition?

The Ultramarines are untouchable. If an Inquisitor tried to declare them Excommunicate and Heretics you would have a thousand more Inquisitors saying... "Whoa, wait just one damn minute and check yourself before proceeding."

If the Inquisition tried to take the fight to the Ultramarines it would create another Galactic civil war without a doubt. The Ultlramarines and their closest second founding chapters would not sit idly by and say "Ok yes we are heretics come kill us now. Hurp de durp." Or say "Oh look guys the Inquisition and the holy hoity toitys from Terra are killing our brother Ultramarines on a trumped up charge of Excommunication... .... hmm that's cool! Let's just go back to polishing our armor."

Not that this scenario would EVER play out mind you, because the Ultramarines and other major Chapters will never succumb to Chaos or consort with Xenos (minus Calgar allowing the Eldar a mild respite).

I too couldn't figure a way how the Ultramarines could be called into question, given the current situation. Yet, and I believe this is what Kaldor meant, if that ever were the case, then yes, a Chapter's past will only protect it so much. The Inquisition or rather the Imperium as a whole will not sit by idly whilst someone is working on, say, a second Horus Heresy - regardless of who that is. And just like during the Heresy, not all Space Marines will fight on one side just because they're "brethren". Aside from the fact that not all Marine Chapters are best buddies.

As for "the major Chapters", there are a few with rampant disorder in their geneseed, so it should - in theory - only be a matter of time until they either do succumb to Chaos or rather get purged before this happens. Certain offspring successor Chapters in particular didn't help at all to alleviate these suspicions.

The idea that any Primarch Legion is always 110% resistant against the influence of Chaos pretty much fails at the Heresy, anyways, and I fail to see why a loss of quality in geneseed and conditioning are supposed to have eliminated this risk.

"Fortunately", of course, GW is far more willing to sacrifice a semblance of consequence rather than giving up on some of the fan-favorites amongst the Marine Chapters, even if this means that their continued existence may seem a bit "odd" when keeping in mind that there are Imperial organizations dedicated to deal with such situations. So, for the foreseeable future, no other "major Chapter" will fall to Chaos, and even the Space Wolves will be free to give everyone the finger without having to fear anything. If push comes to shove, they are so awesome that they can easily deal with an entire Segmentum worth of Navy, anyways. Makes you wonder why they didn't already conquer the Eye of Terror.

Lynata wrote: Yet, and I believe this is what Kaldor meant, if that ever were the case, then yes, a Chapter's past will only protect it so much. The Inquisition or rather the Imperium as a whole will not sit by idly whilst someone is working on, say, a second Horus Heresy - regardless of who that is. And just like during the Heresy, not all Space Marines will fight on one side just because they're "brethren". Aside from the fact that not all Marine Chapters are best buddies.

Exactly.

I'm pretty sure the High Lords and the Inquisition.

I doubt that a SM Chapter could fully take on the soul responsibility, the chapter master would almost certainly contact the nearest Inquisitor or contact one of the Ordos directly.

The only exception would probably be in the case of Tyrannids and that would only be if the infestation has gotten out of control, so as to avoid them spreading to another planet.

any thoughts?