So, with the leaked rules out, It looks like some pretty big impact is being made on the current Ork codex. I was talking with some friends, and this is what we were able to glean from the text so far.

Complex Wound allocation is gone. (Impacts diverse Nobs)

Patch up. (Impacts diverse Nobs)

Basic close combat attack is ap 6. (Orks lose all armor saves in close combat)

LOS rules disallow cover from models on bases. (Impacts Kan Wall)

Gazzy's Waaagh no longer gives Fleet of Foot (Impacts Footsloggers)

Cannot assault out of open topped vehicles that went more than combat speed. (Impacts close combat)

KFF change to 5+ universally and no longer covers vehicles.

Directed fire (Impacts upgraded PK Nob)

Bikers only get +1 to Toughness in shooting. (Impact bikers of all kinds in close combat)

Lumbering USR (Impacts MANs and Gazz)

Do all of these line up with your understanding of the leaked rules? Have you found other impacts?

matphat wrote:
Complex Wound allocation is gone. (Impacts diverse Nobs)

Not gone, but doesn't work well for Nobz anymore.

matphat wrote:
Patch up. (Impacts diverse Nobs)

Yes. 'Nuff said.

matphat wrote:
Basic close combat attack is ap 6. (Orks lose all armor saves in close combat)

Nerf, but a weak one. 6's don't save a lot of Orks to start with.

matphat wrote:
LOS rules disallow cover from models on bases. (Impacts Kan Wall)

Not really. Everything behind the Kanz should be getting KFF saves anyway.

matphat wrote:Gazzy's Waaagh no longer gives Fleet of Foot (Impacts Footsloggers)

Looks like a typo to me, I imagine the intent is for it to be a normal Waaagh! with additional benefits, just like now.

matphat wrote:Cannot assault out of open topped vehicles that went more than combat speed. (Impacts close combat)

You can charge 12" inches though, so you've still got the same range.

matphat wrote:KFF change to 5+ universally and no longer covers vehicles.

Again, probably a typo. There's no reason for it not to affect vehicles. The 5+ is a nerf to the vehicles though. On the other hand, the new squadron rules buff Kanz.

matphat wrote:
Directed fire (Impacts upgraded PK Nob)

Can be circumvented by giving the Nob 'Eavy Armour.

matphat wrote:Bikers only get +1 to Toughness in shooting. (Impact bikers of all kinds in close combat)

Yes.

matphat wrote:

Lumbering USR (Impacts MANs and Gazz)

Yes.

Do we need another thread for this?

Do you mean the 6th ed. leak thread, or is there an Ork thread already?

matphat wrote:Bikers only get +1 to Toughness in shooting. (Impact bikers of all kinds in close combat)

This one makes perfect sense to me and should apply to all bikers. After all when you are being shot at from a far you and hunker down and try and make yourself a smaller target, but if you are leaning off your bike to hit someone with a CC weapon or they are attacking you in CC and are right next to you, it is harder for you to hide behind your bike. Pretty simple concept really and should apply to all bikes across the board IMO.

Skriker

matphat wrote:Do you mean the 6th ed. leak thread, or is there an Ork thread already?

6th ed rumored leak thread.

matphat wrote:
Complex Wound allocation is gone. (Impacts diverse Nobs)
Patch up. (Impacts diverse Nobs)

While these do impact 'diverse' nobs, they also provide the means to ensure that the most important models survive until the end, instead of randomly dying first. I can now include 3-4 basic guys (slugga/choppa) who will be patched out to ensure that my banner, bosspole and powerklaw guys survive. I'm not torn apart by this change.

Basic close combat attack is ap 6. (Orks lose all armor saves in close combat)

Only for models with CCWs. So, Space Wolves ignore our 6+, but Space Marines do not. Yeah, it hurts some, but consider the alternative; the change to no-retreat being Critical hits hardly affects us at all, but messes with all those good-save armies.

LOS rules disallow cover from models on bases. (Impacts Kan Wall)

What-ever.

Gazzy's Waaagh no longer gives Fleet of Foot (Impacts Footsloggers)

Cannot assault out of open topped vehicles that went more than combat speed. (Impacts close combat)

An assault move is now base-move *2. Consider that move 12 + 6 (assault) = 18, and move 6 (combat speed) + assault 12 (double base move) also = 18.

Not sure this has any significant impact at all.

KFF change to 5+ universally and no longer covers vehicles.

I'd expect that to get tweaked in the final rules. This is just a demo. It is clearly intended to affect vehicles, cause it explicitly says what the effect is in the codex. I chalk this one up to an oversight.

Directed fire (Impacts upgraded PK Nob)

There's an easy fix for that that most armies don't have: Consequently, a squad leader with a different combination of saves than the rest of the unit is off limits.

So, buy your nob 'eavy armor and he gets immunity to directed hits. Same cannot be said for marines, eldar, etc. etc.

Bikers only get +1 to Toughness in shooting. (Impact bikers of all kinds in close combat)

And yet, it makes them harder to instant kill with shooting. Which, honestly, I'm more worried about a mass of missile fire killing my nobs than anything that happens to them in assault.


I'm sure it will all be okay. Everyone else is also worried about their nerfs and ignoring their buffs too.

Nice reply Red, I appreciate it.
Now, what about the other things that impact Orks?
I know there are several "good" impacts, such as charging being buffed and what not.

Nobz aren't competitive anymore, Ghazghull is terrible now, and Kan Wall was significantly nerfed.

Hoping for a new codex in early 6th.

Fafnir wrote:Nobz aren't competitive anymore, Ghazghull is terrible now, and Kan Wall was significantly nerfed.

Hoping for a new codex in early 6th.

How was Kan Wall significantly nerfed? Squadrons can ignore results on good dierolls, and the 5+ cover nerf on KFFs was something I hope we all saw coming anyway.

On the topic of bikers, they're harder to hit due to their jink rule, no? Ork bikers are gonna be hard to kill from range.

From what I've read, though our current play style is getting a few hits, it also seems like horde armies are getting some buffs as well.
I'm still not convinced that this is the "real" 6th anyway.

matphat wrote:Patch up. (Impacts diverse Nobs)

What does 'patch up' mean?

It's a rule where at the end of the phase wounds get moved around to maximize the number of dead models. So if you have a squad of 10 nobs and 5 with diverse equipment get wounded, at the end of the phase you reallocate those 5 failed saves so you'd have two dead models and one with 1 wound.

As long as it is another tool to screw Gray Knights as well.

Looks like things have come full circle and charging is back. That means twice the speed, guaranteed. Good for orks. I don't like the look of that whole defensive fire thing though. I hope the leak wasn't real. It looked like too dramatic a change.

matphat wrote:From what I've read, though our current play style is getting a few hits, it also seems like horde armies are getting some buffs as well.
I'm still not convinced that this is the "real" 6th anyway.

The nice thing about Orks is that although they're generally a horde army, there's the potential to play them however you want to play them, and generally be effective at it so long as you do it right. These new changes for 6th edition remove or weaken a lot of the other options, and reinforce the need to play a horde army with Orkz.

And that sucks. I like my Orkz because they're supposed to be the most versatile army in the game. Not so much anymore.

So could someone explain the buffs.

lol I have 120 Orks and run them as footsloggers, their better be some buffs for me footsloggers or their going st8 up on trademe

Also trukks move as fast as rhinos and have no extra Evasion. The speed freak list I've been making is totally screwed and horde ork army also worse because of defensive fire and orks don't have swarm.

Only way I see to redeem this is with a new codex that gives fast high evasion vehicles and army wide feel no pain and a str increase.

illuknisaa wrote:Also trukks move as fast as rhinos and have no extra Evasion. The speed freak list I've been making is totally screwed and horde ork army also worse because of defensive fire and orks don't have swarm.

Only way I see to redeem this is with a new codex that gives fast high evasion vehicles and army wide feel no pain and a str increase.

Why stop there? Give them all fleet, armywide 3++ save, I 10 and forceweapons...

For the love of god can you please stop whining in every thread, these are (at best) very experimental rules which will most likely change a lot compared to the real rules.

Stormboyz can Deep Strike now, even without Zagstrukk (p. 99). If I read correctly, it seems that they can only move 9" though :(

Still, I'm personally very excited about the new rules. Be honest, 5th is starting to getting a bit tedious, isn't it?

Orky-Kowboy wrote:. Be honest, 5th is starting to getting a bit tedious, isn't it?

Not for those of us who just got back into gaming
At least I didn't buy the rulebook

illuknisaa wrote:Also trukks move as fast as rhinos and have no extra Evasion. The speed freak list I've been making is totally screwed and horde ork army also worse because of defensive fire and orks don't have swarm.

Trukks aren't tanks though, are they? As such, they don't get the -1 EV, right?

Also, what's up with people not getting defensive fire? You don't get it unless you have Overwatch, someone deep strikes within 12" or unless someone appears out of reserves or a destroyed transport.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:Also trukks move as fast as rhinos and have no extra Evasion. The speed freak list I've been making is totally screwed and horde ork army also worse because of defensive fire and orks don't have swarm.

Trukks aren't tanks though, are they? As such, they don't get the -1 EV, right?

Also, what's up with people not getting defensive fire? You don't get it unless you have Overwatch, someone deep strikes within 12" or unless someone appears out of reserves or a destroyed transport.

You can use defensive fire if somebody assault you. p77

To make things worse if you are trying to assault a unit of guardsmen each guards man can shoot your orks 3 times also if you are out of assault range you can still be shot by defensive fire.

And oops I didn't find that fast rule at first.

Orky - you already could. ALL jump infantry can deepstrike

illuknisaa wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:Also trukks move as fast as rhinos and have no extra Evasion. The speed freak list I've been making is totally screwed and horde ork army also worse because of defensive fire and orks don't have swarm.

Trukks aren't tanks though, are they? As such, they don't get the -1 EV, right?

Also, what's up with people not getting defensive fire? You don't get it unless you have Overwatch, someone deep strikes within 12" or unless someone appears out of reserves or a destroyed transport.

You can use defensive fire if somebody assault you. p77

To make things worse if you are trying to assault a unit of guardsmen each guards man can shoot your orks 3 times also if you are out of assault range you can still be shot by defensive fire.

And oops I didn't find that fast rule at first.

The guardsmen don't get to shoot if you lock them in CC and they only get to shoot once. And yes, they need to have Overwatch, because that's what gives them permission to use DF. Pg. 56.

Skriker wrote:

matphat wrote:Bikers only get +1 to Toughness in shooting. (Impact bikers of all kinds in close combat)

This one makes perfect sense to me and should apply to all bikers. After all when you are being shot at from a far you and hunker down and try and make yourself a smaller target, but if you are leaning off your bike to hit someone with a CC weapon or they are attacking you in CC and are right next to you, it is harder for you to hide behind your bike. Pretty simple concept really and should apply to all bikes across the board IMO.

Skriker

except in CC I see a biker ramming, overrunning and spinning back like a bull never really giving you an opening like a gang of bikers would do to some poor chode...

yeah these rules have been making me sad as of late because it does limit the ork options, as a previous person had stated orks are suppose to be able to play different each match if they so choose from speed freaks, to foot slog to kan wall and anything between like Dakka line. This honestly nerfs us as well as most assualt armies (which if you hadn't noticed out number shooty armies) too much

I'm from Missouri, The show me state. and I think GW would be in a nightmarish storm before they would release the rules in their current incarnation without intense lash back due to them. 40k has never in it's edition changed so drastically I am lead to assume these rules were a shooter armies' desire to be competitive in assualt which if that is the case why make IG even more powerful?

My Prediction? It's a bunch of squig-dung and we should be patient

If you assault someone, they do NOT get to perform Defensive Fire unless they have overwatch. Overwatch is NOT an action all units can take, it is a special rule currently held by one model: Coteaz. A stratagem allows you to use it when near an objective but also gives the ability to your opponent.

You don't get cover saves from shooting through a unit normally, but there's an action the intervening unit can perform that gives cover saves to unit behind them.

Trukks and buggies are not tanks, so they are harder to hit than tanks.

Our wagons can move and fire three weapons - or remain stationary and fire six.

A transport that moves at combat speed only allows one model inside to fire but also affords it Relentless - SAGs can be fired from moving wagons.

A fast transport that moves at cruising speed allows the same - SAGs can be fired from fast moving trukks.
A fast transport that moves at combat speed allows as many models inside to fire as fire points, all if open topped and affords them relentless - Lootas in trukks?

Models with Template weapons can forgo their close combat attacks when they assault a unit to gain D6 attacks with their weapon. Nice little upgrade that makes flamers a little more useful - We have a unit of up to 15 template weapons.

With fleet you add +2 movement, which is added before doubling for running/charging - 7" wagon/trukk move +16" charge = 23" threat range.

I'm trying to puzzle through the changes to my warbike army, so bear with me.

Bikes are Move 8, Fast, Jink, Flesh & Steel, Multi-Targeting (1).

From what I can tell warbikes can...
Move Flat Out and move 24" but not do much of anything else.
Move 16" and still shoot.
Charge 16" and, if they are no longer locked in close combat, still shoot.
Remain stationary and shoot their Dakka guns once and their Sluggas once (yay... Shootas for Nobz? Hurm... need to look at Codex... ).

Warbikes are T5 when being shot at, T4 when in close combat.
Warbikes are -1 to hit (basically) when being shot at.

Warbike Dakkaguns give +1 attack the turn that the model charges if the model is armed with a one-handed primary close combat weapon, no bonus if the model can already claim the bonus for having 2 weapons (basically: a powerklaw nob/warboss on a warbike gets +1 attack when they charge from the dakkaguns).

Does that seem right?

Rafi wrote:(basically: a powerklaw nob/warboss on a warbike gets +1 attack when they charge from the dakkaguns).

Does that seem right?

Alas not, a PK is a 'coarse weapon' and can only gain an additional attack if the second one is the same.

Where has everyone scored copies of these rules from? I'm still pretty new to 5th edition and think that changing things now sucks. When do the new rules get released?

Dribble Joy wrote:

Rafi wrote:(basically: a powerklaw nob/warboss on a warbike gets +1 attack when they charge from the dakkaguns).

Does that seem right?

Alas not, a PK is a 'coarse weapon' and can only gain an additional attack if the second one is the same.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks!

Whoop, I should quote what I'm replying to, heh.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And yes, they need to have Overwatch, because that's what gives them permission to use DF. Pg. 56.

As i see, any unit can DF against assaulting enemy units, the Overwatch only gives an extra DF possibility (when enemy units comes within 12").

MakersHitstheMark wrote:Where has everyone scored copies of these rules from? I'm still pretty new to 5th edition and think that changing things now sucks. When do the new rules get released?

The current edition is effectively 12 years old. 4th and 5th edition were tweaks to the same basic mechanics.

As for the PDF; google is your friend.

AtoMaki wrote:As i see, any unit can DF against assaulting enemy units, the Overwatch only gives an extra DF possibility (when enemy units comes within 12").

OVERWATCH
Universal, Shooting special rule
If an enemy unit ends a Move action within 12”, a
unit with this ability may perform a Defensive Fire
action and shoot at the intruding unit. If the unit
was assaulted by the enemy it can shoot
nonetheless. If the units lose contact, they
consolidate at the end of the phase as normal.

The Universal tag does NOT mean all units can perform it:

...Universal special rules are conferred
to every model in the unit if at least one
model has this rule....

AtoMaki wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And yes, they need to have Overwatch, because that's what gives them permission to use DF. Pg. 56.

As i see, any unit can DF against assaulting enemy units, the Overwatch only gives an extra DF possibility (when enemy units comes within 12").

You're not given permission from anything other than Overwatch to use defensive fire when someone charges you. The "Defensive fire" part in the rules only describe what happens when you use defensive fire, it doesn't give you permission to do it.

the nice thing is if you have 2 30 guy ork units in CC and lose by 10 wounds and both are still fearless. you only lose 10 guys total not 10 guys from each unit.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And yes, they need to have Overwatch, because that's what gives them permission to use DF. Pg. 56.

As i see, any unit can DF against assaulting enemy units, the Overwatch only gives an extra DF possibility (when enemy units comes within 12").

You're not given permission from anything other than Overwatch to use defensive fire when someone charges you. The "Defensive fire" part in the rules only describe what happens when you use defensive fire, it doesn't give you permission to do it.

Ahhh... i got it. The bonus DF in the Deep Strike section is kind of confusing (it gave me the idea that i can DF whenever i want).

Honestly I wouldn't hold much to these rumors until more is released.....a lot could change between now and the release. From the sounds of it, we will be playing 40k DnD with all the complications

Where are people getting that KFF won't affect vehicles? I'm not doubting it's in there; I just haven't been able to find it.

Brian P wrote:Where are people getting that KFF won't affect vehicles? I'm not doubting it's in there; I just haven't been able to find it.

I don't know, the cover/vehicle rules are a lot clearer and the KFF clearly states (in the codex update) all models within get a 5+ cover save.
The vehicle rules (or massive rules, can't remember) mention that some older stuff contain the word 'obscured' - this means in cover.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Orky - you already could. ALL jump infantry can deepstrike

Yes, but this time around, they can actually assault without a WAAGH! At least thats how Im reading it anyways.

... Ok since I didn't get much of a responce in the leaked thread, I can ask here What about trukks? Can someone explain if they got better/worse?

KingCracker wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Orky - you already could. ALL jump infantry can deepstrike

Yes, but this time around, they can actually assault without a WAAGH! At least thats how Im reading it anyways.

Huh? You cannot assault from deepstrike unless you have a special rule allowing you to (SC lets you for Stormboyz, from memory), and Stormboyz NEVER EVER get Waaaaagh! - first off, the errata removed Waaaagh! from their entry, and secondly even if you ignore that Waaagh! only affects Infantry. JI /= Infantry

Dribble Joy wrote:

MakersHitstheMark wrote:Where has everyone scored copies of these rules from? I'm still pretty new to 5th edition and think that changing things now sucks. When do the new rules get released?

The current edition is effectively 12 years old. 4th and 5th edition were tweaks to the same basic mechanics.

As for the PDF; google is your friend.

Yeah, I went and looked for it last night and couldn't find it. I'll look again for it. Thanks! At least now I know that everyone else is gobbling it up the same way.

Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:except in CC I see a biker ramming, overrunning and spinning back like a bull never really giving you an opening like a gang of bikers would do to some poor chode...

I'm from Missouri, The show me state. and I think GW would be in a nightmarish storm before they would release the rules in their current incarnation without intense lash back due to them. 40k has never in it's edition changed so drastically I am lead to assume these rules were a shooter armies' desire to be competitive in assualt which if that is the case why make IG even more powerful?

My Prediction? It's a bunch of squig-dung and we should be patient

I also see a biker ramming people with his bike in CC, but that is not how GW writers envisioned it. The "bike" doesn't do damage in CC with bikers, but their close combat weapons using their own strength. Thus my point of leaning off the bike is more appropriate given the way bikers work in CC. I think that bikers should have different rules in CC, because it shouldn't matter how weak or strong you are if you run over someone with a massive bike.

Actually 40k has drastically changed just about every time. The time not was between 4th end 5th which, oddly, was more a revision than a drastic change which is very unusual for GW to do with its rules. Given that IG still stink in CC and this particular change doesn't actually change how well an ork deals with being shot at I don't see this being a shooer armies vs. melee armies kind of thing either. Your typical ork is still going to beat down your typical IG trooper in CC without a problem. Only difference is sitting on that bike isn't making it harder for the IG guy to hurt the Ork if he actually happens to hit in CC.

I do agree, though, that it is likely all BS at this point until a new ediiton is ready. Everyone always posts those "I got this from my friend who really *knows*" prediction posts that turn out to be nothing but someone's wishful thinking.

Skriker

nosferatu1001 wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Orky - you already could. ALL jump infantry can deepstrike

Yes, but this time around, they can actually assault without a WAAGH! At least thats how Im reading it anyways.

Huh? You cannot assault from deepstrike unless you have a special rule allowing you to (SC lets you for Stormboyz, from memory), and Stormboyz NEVER EVER get Waaaaagh! - first off, the errata removed Waaaagh! from their entry, and secondly even if you ignore that Waaagh! only affects Infantry. JI /= Infantry

Doesn't it say that units that Deepstrike may make an Engage move? This would allow them to assault their basic movement after they DS.

It says they can't.

And even if they could, it's not exactly a fantastic situation, since if you're close enough to assault, you're close enough to be shot to ribbons by every single enemy unit within 12" the moment you drop in.

A unit that is deployed via deep strike can be
placed anywhere on the table, as long as no
model is placed within 18” of an enemy model, in
impassable terrain or inside a transport, building
or fortifications that is already on the table. There
are no additional rules than that the unit may
perform no other Move action than Turn, Combat
move and Engage in this turn.

So you can, but you have to be lucky, have a beacon and weather the wall of lead that will come at you.

Personally, I like the patch up rule. It means I don't have to figure out a way to diversify my nob bikers, everybody gets a powerklaw with 1 BP in the unit. Cheaper and more tank busty!

-cgmckenzie

Fafnir wrote:It says they can't.

And even if they could, it's not exactly a fantastic situation, since if you're close enough to assault, you're close enough to be shot to ribbons by every single enemy unit within 12" the moment you drop in.

An engage move is an assault, so you can.

You do have to suffer through defensive fire, but that's only fair. There needs to be some drawback to having the ability to assault anywhere on the table.

So cool, I was reading that right. MY thing now is, who can actually do the defense attack? Ive read some people say everyone gets the defense move, and others say that only specific units can. I dont want to find out that anytime I want to assault a unit and be shot the feth and back BEFORE I get to clubbing. So for reals, which way is it played?

KingCracker wrote:So cool, I was reading that right. MY thing now is, who can actually do the defense attack? Ive read some people say everyone gets the defense move, and others say that only specific units can. I dont want to find out that anytime I want to assault a unit and be shot the feth and back BEFORE I get to clubbing. So for reals, which way is it played?

There's three ways for a unit to be able to use defensive fire.

1) The unit has the Overwatch special rule, and an enemy ends their move within 12" of them.
2) An enemy deep strikes within 12" of the unit. No special rules are needed, everyone gets this.
3) The unit is blocking an access point to a vehicle when an emergency disembark is performed by the enemy. No special rules needed here either, anyone can do this. You can also opt to do a charge by chance instead in these circumstances.

Posit wrote:

KingCracker wrote:So cool, I was reading that right. MY thing now is, who can actually do the defense attack? Ive read some people say everyone gets the defense move, and others say that only specific units can. I dont want to find out that anytime I want to assault a unit and be shot the feth and back BEFORE I get to clubbing. So for reals, which way is it played?

There's three ways for a unit to be able to use defensive fire.

1) The unit has the Overwatch special rule, and an enemy ends their move within 12" of them.
2) An enemy deep strikes within 12" of the unit. No special rules are needed, everyone gets this.
3) The unit is blocking an access point to a vehicle when an emergency disembark is performed by the enemy. No special rules needed here either, anyone can do this. You can also opt to do a charge by chance instead in these circumstances.

To add onto this a little, to further try and demonstrate how inflated of an impact people have made this into:

1) Currently of all the codexes in the update document, Coatez is the only unit that comes with Overwatch. The only other way currently to get it is to get the Strategem "Fire at Will" which gives it to any unit (friend or foe) that is within 3" of an objective.

2) The dangerous side of this is if you deepstrike within 12" of 3 enemy units, all 3 can use DF on you. The upside is, each unit can only use it once a turn in this manner; so if you dropped a second unit within 12" of those enemy units, any of them that used DF on the first guy you dropped are now defenseless against the second guy. In addition to that, things like Drop Pods, Spore Pods, and Heroic Intervention disallow DF against them.

3) Pretty well laid out by Posit. Semi-rare circumstance currently

So yeah...DF is not the bogeyman, out to render all assault lists invalid.

Good, I was hoping it wasnt as bad as people were making it out to be (because people will do that for damn near everything) but at the same time, Im sitting here thinking, ok so my boyz are possibly completely useless in 6th until a codex update

If these rules are legit, I'm a little worried about Orks in general.
I feel like we will either have to completely rework our tactics, or we will see a huge shrink in the number of viable builds.
Right now Kanwall, and Bikers look to be losing their effectiveness in a big way.
Also, does anyone else think that Orks are getting hit with the cover save changes? I rely heavily on cover in most of my games and having all cover go to 5+ is feeling like a big hit.
Especially in a game where most armies I fight have 3+ armor saves and could give a crap about cover anyway.

The entire game is being hit with normal cover being changed to 5+.

Battlewagon Rush is still viable since we still have the same charge ranges, and we'll have more Boyz in combat. Wagons also won't be as easy to kill since AP1 is no longer a +1 by itself, but rather tied into the "-1 if it's a tank, but don't count this if the weapon is AP1 or the tank is open-topped."

Green Tide may actually be viable as well since we can now run a foot with all of our mobs.

AresX8 wrote:The entire game is being hit with normal cover being changed to 5+.

Battlewagon Rush is still viable since we still have the same charge ranges, and we'll have more Boyz in combat. Wagons also won't be as easy to kill since AP1 is no longer a +1 by itself, but rather tied into the "-1 if it's a tank, but don't count this if the weapon is AP1 or the tank is open-topped."

Except that every imperial army has loads of ap3 str 8 pieplates and orks don't (looted wagon still sucks) and they have easier time hitting us than we do them. So they get their 3+ save while we get 5+

And bws have less range (no 2").

In addition all SMs can ingnore our 6+ armor save in cc (chainsword and pistol)

Really now? IG is the only Imperial army that has Battle Cannon pie plates.

We've always had low armor. That's not an issue as we out-number them like we should.

You're REALLY relying on a 6+ to save you in combat? Again, we out-number Marines, so that's not a problem.

I think that the larger issues are:
1. Wound Allocation changes might impact some folks.
2. The reduced impact of the KFF.
3. The reduced impact of cover provided by ranked models in front of you. (Kan Wall)
4. The fact that our open topped tank are now easier to hit because they are a tank and are -1 to the evasion table. Bikes could be awesome though.....you lose the T in CC, but to hit in shooting we will get buffed. +1 for bike, +1 for moving...should make hitting us harder I think.

Really, until the rules are printed and in my hand as a finalized thing it means diddly. Even then if they do a massive change like this there will be several FAQ rounds I suspect.

matphat wrote:I feel like we will either have to completely rework our tactics, or we will see a huge shrink in the number of viable builds.

Of course we will have to re-work Ork tactics. Everybody will have to rework their tactics. This is going to be a new game, a different game, you'll have a new army to learn (without having to buy one), new enemies to learn, new enemies to crush, a brand new Waaagh! And who knows? Mayhap more viable builds will present themselves. I am not worried about anything because I am the Right Hand of Mork as well as the Right Hand of Gork.

Oh yeah, warbiker are going to rock. They're faster than before, even faster during the Waaagh!, harder to hit, can charge outside point blank range, they still have that +4 cover save (where as other bikers lost turbo boost), and that +1 to toughness now affects ID, so biker nobs now need s9 to be oneshot.

Luke_Prowler wrote:Oh yeah, warbiker are going to rock. They're faster than before, even faster during the Waaagh!, harder to hit, can charge outside point blank range, they still have that +4 cover save (where as other bikers lost turbo boost), and that +1 to toughness now affects ID, so biker nobs now need s9 to be oneshot.

So ID is going to be 2XT+1? Or are you saying that the +1 T for being on a bike will count against ID? In which case they will need a S10. If it is going to be 2XT+1, then PK Nobz without FC will not be ale to ID multi-wound T4 models.

Did you read the leak at all Jon? They changed the way ID rules work now.

Instant death kinda changed. A hit that's 4 S above toughness takes off two wounds and +5 over toughness does 3 wounds.

Edit: actually, that means warbosses get 2 wounds getting hit by a lascannon and still instakilled by railguns. Greeeeeeeeeeeaat.

Im thinking we will see a revival of the Ork Warboss personally. 5th edition is basically coverhammer 40k, so Bosses (the FOCUS of the damn army IMO) went to the old folks home and the KFF BigMeks seemed to be leading everything. Now that str10 PK is going to be causing some serious hurt


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Luke_Prowler wrote:Instant death kinda changed. A hit that's 4 S above toughness takes off two wounds and +5 over toughness does 3 wounds.

Read by kindda, you mean it completely changed

I was understating for effect

Luke_Prowler wrote:Instant death kinda changed. A hit that's 4 S above toughness takes off two wounds and +5 over toughness does 3 wounds.

Edit: actually, that means warbosses get 2 wounds getting hit by a lascannon and still instakilled by railguns. Greeeeeeeeeeeaat.

Isn't a Warboss on a warbike T6? So 1 wound if hit by a lascannon and 2 wounds if hit by a railgun?

So... if a Fast model with Multi-Targeting conducts a Combat or Engage move it performs Shooting actions as if it had performed a Turn, and can double its Multi-Targeting as if it were Stationary... So... Wazdakka can move 8" and shoot his Dakkacannon AND his Kustom Mega-Blasta?

Also, I'm assuming that Repair/Bolstering only works on Vehicles, not non-Vehicles that happen to have Multi-Targeting (like bikes), so Wazdakka can't Repair/Bolster himself so that he can go Flat Out and fire 2 weapons. Which, honestly, is kind of lame and un-orky.

Oh, and, huh, I assume that Repair/Bolster takes 1 Shooting action? So Wazdakka could move 8" and perform 2 Repair/Bolsters? Or, I guess, with his special rule, move Flat Out and perform a Repair/Bolster?

Your right that on a bike he takes two wounds from a rail gun. I mean a boss that's walking takes two from a lascannon.

KingCracker wrote:Did you read the leak at all Jon? They changed the way ID rules work now.

Nope.

Glad to see some good back and fourth on the pros and cons of the leak on Orks.
I'm curious to see if any of this makes it to actual 6e

I see Shoota Boyz being retired.

One of the main draws of the unit is that they're able to soften up their targets before ripping them to shreds in CC. Now that the Assault and Shooting phases have been reversed (I still can't understand why, makes no sense), the unit really doesn't bring much to the table. Slugga boyz are just going to be better.

I thought it stated that Bikes have no effect on ID in the leaked rules, meaning you are still T5 on a bike for ID purposes

Fafnir wrote:I see Shoota Boyz being retired.

One of the main draws of the unit is that they're able to soften up their targets before ripping them to shreds in CC. Now that the Assault and Shooting phases have been reversed (I still can't understand why, makes no sense), the unit really doesn't bring much to the table. Slugga boyz are just going to be better.

Agreed, which sucks, because I LOVE shoota boyz, not to mention they just look cool. Someone mentioned that Orks would be basically hitting on 6s, is that true? And SM will be hitting mostly on 2s? WTF, if thats true, then thats one thing Im NOT liking about this edition. Good thing only half my boyz I own are shootas, might have to cut some arms off and go back to pistols and axes.

Fafnir wrote:I see Shoota Boyz being retired.

One of the main draws of the unit is that they're able to soften up their targets before ripping them to shreds in CC. Now that the Assault and Shooting phases have been reversed (I still can't understand why, makes no sense), the unit really doesn't bring much to the table. Slugga boyz are just going to be better.

I think it makes more sense if the game played by using you move, I move, you assault, I assault... method instead the usual way.

As for stormboyz: Zagstrukk also gives them Deepstrike(Heroic), which prevents enemy models from getting defensive fire against them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I thought it stated that Bikes have no effect on ID in the leaked rules, meaning you are still T5 on a bike for ID purposes

Actually, it states the exact opposite, and goes on that the bike blocks off the explosion/lascannon shot.

Gretchin will hit any moving regular unit on a 4+, orks will hit any moving rgular unit on a 5+.
Quick units (bikes, fast skimmers) are harder to hit by 1.
Massive units (tanks, MCs) are easier to hit by 1.
Stationary units are easier to hit by 1.

So a rokkit will hit a stationary tank on a 3+, a moving tank (including rhinos and chimeras) on a 4+, a moving fast skimmer tank on a 5+ and a moving bike on a 6+.

In addition, non-massive vehicles (ie. non-tank vehicles) can claim cover like regular models. Hurray for buggies and trukks.


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illuknisaa wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I see Shoota Boyz being retired.

One of the main draws of the unit is that they're able to soften up their targets before ripping them to shreds in CC. Now that the Assault and Shooting phases have been reversed (I still can't understand why, makes no sense), the unit really doesn't bring much to the table. Slugga boyz are just going to be better.

I think it makes more sense if the game played by using you move, I move, you assault, I assault... method instead the usual way.

Move and assault are one thing now. You can either move or engage into close combat at your regular speed(6" for infantry, 8" for bikes and jump infantry) allowing you to shoot afterward. Or you run/cruise twice your speed or charge twice your speed into close combat, preventing you from shooting.
Also note that fleet increases movement by 2", so ork infantry can charge 16" during their Waagh!.

The assault phase only resolves pile-in and combat itself, no more assault moves.

If shoota boyz wipe out their opponents by using engage, they can shoot whatever they like afterwards. But I agree, sluggas will be better by the new rules.

But aren't shoota boyz better because they have assault weapons (which grant +1A in cc)?

Also do you get to alpha strike if sluggas assault marines and then in the same turn shootas assault?

illuknisaa wrote:But aren't shoota boyz better because they have assault weapons (which grant +1A in cc)?

Also do you get to alpha strike if sluggas assault marines and then in the same turn shootas assault?

1. No. Assault weapons are secondary CCWs, and require a 1 handed weapon to claim the bonus you're referring to.

2. Correct.

illuknisaa wrote:Also do you get to alpha strike if sluggas assault marines and then in the same turn shootas assault?

Yeah, but why not charge with sluggas who get an I10 WS4 attack rather than a BS2 shot after combat. Extra attacks from assault weapons will only matter for nobz or warbosses without a special cc weapon.

Can orks with pk alpha strike?

No, all powerfist variants (including PK) have the "Always strikes last" rule, which is unaffected by the models initiative.

No it actually used that as an example somewhere. Units that alpha strike get I10 attacks, unless a piece of wargear says otherwise IE PK/PF make the attacks go at I1

illuknisaa wrote:

Fafnir wrote:I see Shoota Boyz being retired.

One of the main draws of the unit is that they're able to soften up their targets before ripping them to shreds in CC. Now that the Assault and Shooting phases have been reversed (I still can't understand why, makes no sense), the unit really doesn't bring much to the table. Slugga boyz are just going to be better.

I think it makes more sense if the game played by using you move, I move, you assault, I assault... method instead the usual way.

Hi,

actually , there is 1 rule where the shoota boyz could excel: Covering Fire.
This action provides Direct Hits from volume of fire. The BS has no impact here.

Take 30 Shoota Boys with 3 rokkits, give them a character (the BigMek for example) to get the special action = 60 shots > ~ 10 x 6's > ~ 3 direct hits ( which, of course, will be the rokkits) , and get rid of that pesky HQ, priest, whatever is hidding in a marine squad.
I can imagine shooting the SM with the hammer / PF, then let the Kianz or the DDread engage the unit the following turn.

// on second though, that rule actuallyt makes the shootas boyz a pretty reliable anti-tank unit, hahaha

You don't need to give them a big mek. The nob leading the shoota boyz would already be a character.

In addition, HQs squad leaders and priests tend to have a different combination of saves(people will spend points on combat shields, 'eavy armor or flakk armor to make sure of this) and thus can't be sniped. You can kill special weapons and squad leaders with identical saves, though.

But nice catch, indeed.

Oh that's right., the Nob can be a character indeed - good.
( and yeah, you re probably right about the enemy HQ, they won't be in the same saving group)

Same logic : a Burnas squad with 2 or 3 KMB (yeah, yeah, I know .... please don't shout at me) ,
The template is an automatic 6 in this Covering fire rule.
So get your burnas close to a dreadnought or a vehicule or a small-model count squad, and you have automatice 3 hits with the KMB. ...
Well, i guess that is very situational // ... and you need a character with them

XC18 wrote:Oh that's right., the Nob can be a character indeed - good.
( and yeah, you re probably right about the enemy HQ, they won't be in the same saving group)

Same logic : a Burnas squad with 2 or 3 KMB (yeah, yeah, I know .... please don't shout at me) ,
The template is an automatic 6 in this Covering fire rule.
So get your burnas close to a dreadnought or a vehicule or a small-model count squad, and you have automatice 3 hits with the KMB. ...
Well, i guess that is very situational // ... and you need a character with them

You still have to actually hit with the weapon you want to use directed fire with. You pick one of the hits made, not just any shot regardless of hitting or not.

Nope.
I don't have the pdf here, but as far as I remember, it specifically said that the direct hit is not necessarily one of the 6's
So as long as you have 3 x 6's, you have one direct hit with whichever weapon you have in the unit

That one PDF wrote:If the unit rolls at least three results of 6, the unit has laid down enough covering fire to grant one marksman a clear shot. You can choose one hit to be a Directed Hit before you proceed with the rolls to wound. This doesn’t have to be one of the hits with a result of 6.

Thus, you have to actually hit with the weapon you want to snipe with, but you don't have to roll a 6 for it as long as there's 3 6's from other weapons.

Oh ok, I misunderstood your original statement, sorry.
Hum I will double check once I am home, but I think the 3 x 6's give a direct 'HIT', so you don't to roll to hit again, you go directly to the roll to wound.
// edit : I found the rule again, and indeed I am wrong and you are right, this rule will allow you to get one direct hit among the hits you already made, nothing more. Too bad

matphat wrote:Glad to see some good back and fourth on the pros and cons of the leak on Orks.
I'm curious to see if any of this makes it to actual 6e

Indeed!
But untill I see the actual legit 6th Edition rules in my hand later this summer(ish)... Im not gonna worry!

Hmm I was thinking because modifiers for evasion don't actually modify bs but only the bs throw so wouldn't it mean orks gain bigger benefit when shooting stationary tanks than sm armies (bs 4)?

ie. sm hits a stationary tank on 2+ (tank+stationary+bs 4+1 always fails). Gains 16.67% benefit over 5th edition.

ork hits a stationary tank on 3+ (tank+stationary+bs 2). Gains 33.33% benefit over 5th edition.

A nice move for shoota boys is : engage an enemy transport on CC, crack it (thx to the PK Nob) then shoot the disembarked unit to death in the same turn.
And in case of slugga boys : don't shoot, use 'Charge by chance'.
In both cases, we are not afraid to crak an enemy transport by CC anymore,

Redbeard wrote:

matphat wrote:Basic close combat attack is ap 6. (Orks lose all armor saves in close combat)

Only for models with CCWs. So, Space Wolves ignore our 6+, but Space Marines do not. Yeah, it hurts some, but consider the alternative; the change to no-retreat being Critical hits hardly affects us at all, but messes with all those good-save armies.

Space Marines have Bolt Pistols which have their own CC profile, and as such are Str 4 AP 5 (In the 6th ed rules)

So they will in fact ignore armor of 5 or worse.

I still don't see anything in the book or FAQ to make me think they gave any love to Tankbustas.
Which is a damn shame.

Well, Tankbusta bombs are now considered melta and get the AP1 bonus. Tanks are also just easier to hit and are mobile, compared to lootas who have to stay still.

Some stuff i have spotted although not necessarily good.

The Rage rule is alot better than before, i can see the combo of the Doc with 30 fnp boyz to be a nice combo.

Deepstrike with weirdboy is somewhat safer than before.

Flashgits are slightly better as they have targeters (everything counts as stationary for shooting)

Deffkoptas are now hitting tanks atleast 75% of the time with TL RL, they are also harder to hit and cannot be ID by (S8)?

Squadrons of warbuggies have also been improved by the new squadron rules.

I was thinking the same thing about buggies.
But I've not figured out if I really like it better than the old squardon rules.
They SEEM better.
I'd need to play them to know for sure.

Fafnir wrote:I see Shoota Boyz being retired.

One of the main draws of the unit is that they're able to soften up their targets before ripping them to shreds in CC. Now that the Assault and Shooting phases have been reversed (I still can't understand why, makes no sense), the unit really doesn't bring much to the table. Slugga boyz are just going to be better.

I'm not sure about that.

boys plus nob with pk assault rhino. nob destroys rhino, boys defensive fire(disembarking) and then shoot again in shooting phase.

I could be wrong.

Grots could be used as intervening unit- meat shield- to stop directed fire

Page 56 - Gitfindas
When shooting, Flash Gitz may measure to see if they are in range before declaring their target. In addition,
all weapons of the unit have the targeter rule, as described in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Targeter
Some advanced weapons are equipped with targeting systems to negate the protection of fast
moving foes. If a unit shoots with at least one weapon with this special rule, the target unit
counts as stationary for determining its Evasion value.

flash gits as anti aircraft troops anyone?

Do you replace both slugga + CCW for shoota or just slugga? Don't have me dex on me. If its just the slugga, you can still claim +1A with the shoota which is real nice.

Yep, you replace both.