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6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/12 18:12:58


Post by: Bruteboss


Hopefully anyone responding to this thread will have actually read the pdf and faq out there before saying anything. For those of you that need a reference, google "6th edition leak".
Basically, I took a long, hard look at the document and feel about 80% sure that it is a legit test copy of the 6th edition codex. Wording will change and should be made clearer than how complex it is now but I think we're dealing with the real thing here.

In that respect, its worth discussing how this will affect my beloved GK.

A few things that pop out to me:

1) Draigowing is dead: the things that made this army so powerful in 5th are done away with in 6th. Wound allocation means they will die faster in both shooting and assault, and defensive fire/overwatch makes assaulting a prepared enemy a bad idea. What's worse is that when you get stuck in with an enemy in cc and don't kill them in 1 round, if a unit manages to counter charge you, they hit at I10, meaning they beat our amazing I6 halberds. The only buff they got was assault weapons counting as an extra cc weapon, so paladins and terminators have 3 attacks base. It gives them up to 5 attacks each with a banner on the charge but that doesn't balance out all the negatives.

2) Coteaz is amazing. Per the FAQ he grants his unit a 12" range overwatch ability to shoot any enemy unit that steps within range on the enemy's turn (no word on the limit to how many times you can do it in a turn). Combined with his sanctuary power his unit will be a nearly impossible rock to remove from the location they choose to stand their ground on. IC's in general also got buffed for helping their unit fight better in cc and shooting, making him almost a no-brainer at 100 points. The trick will be finding a suitably powerful unit to stick him in that can withstand long range firepower and dish it themselves. I'm thinking a full terminator unit with banners will be my choice. They'll have 2+ armour, up to 5 force weapon attacks each and can dish out the pain in shooting as well.

3) Warp quake was nerfed. It had to happen given how terrible it is to play against for some armies but its now just a "nice to have" rather than "auto-win". All it does now is cause D6 ap2 wounds against a deep strike unit that lands within range so it won't be killing anything outright. However, the new defensive fire rules mean that (almost) anything that deep strikes within range, you also get to shoot at. So you're essentially adding D6 wounds to the unit you shoot at. Not a bad compromise given how overpowered this ability is currently. I can foresee some nasty combos with a 10 man strike squad standing near coteaz's unit, and both of them unloading on any deep striker unlucky enough to land nearby, not much can survive that kind of firepower, so far as I can tell. Keep in mind that infiltrating now counts as a form of deep strike, so you will see more use of this ability than you might think.

4) All psykers now carry a pseudo-psychic hood. This one is major for us as a psychic army. Any psyker can try to counter an enemy's power cast within 24" on a roll of 5+, and hood's are even better. They now roll a D6 and add your mastery to it vs the enemy's roll. Librarian's with mastery level 3 suddenly seem worth it, given that most other psykers in 40k will only be mastery level 1.

5) forceweapons won't auto kill monsterous creatures. As there are now "levels" of eternal warrior and instant death, force weapons won't be auto killing any of the big baddies now that they all get EW3 (I think) as a baseline for being monsterous. Instead you just cause extra wounds against them. Overall, probably fair given how hard GK screws over tyranid MCs.

6) Stormraven's are badass. They are supersonic flyers now so pretty much every unit in the game will only be hitting them on a 6+ in shooting and they are impossible to hit in cc by anything that isn't flying or jump infantry. I didn't look too closely at the flyer rules but overall, they seem to be a huge benefit to this unit, meaning we shouldn't be surprised to see 2 or more of them in alot of GK armies.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/12 19:32:24


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Bruteboss wrote:
1) Draigowing is dead: the things that made this army so powerful in 5th are done away with in 6th. Wound allocation means they will die faster in both shooting and assault, and defensive fire/overwatch makes assaulting a prepared enemy a bad idea. What's worse is that when you get stuck in with an enemy in cc and don't kill them in 1 round, if a unit manages to counter charge you, they hit at I10, meaning they beat our amazing I6 halberds. The only buff they got was assault weapons counting as an extra cc weapon, so paladins and terminators have 3 attacks base. It gives them up to 5 attacks each with a banner on the charge but that doesn't balance out all the negatives.


Assault weapons are secondary weapons ON THE CHARGE. After the charge, they revert back to not being CCWs. Also, remember that defensive fire only comes into play if you're deep striking within 12", rushing out of a just-killed vehicle or if the enemy has Overwatch. The only unit we know of currently with Overwatch is Coteaz's and those under the effect of that one stratagem.

Bruteboss wrote:
2) Coteaz is amazing. 3) Warp quake was nerfed.


Agreed with these points.

Bruteboss wrote:
4) All psykers now carry a pseudo-psychic hood. This one is major for us as a psychic army. Any psyker can try to counter an enemy's power cast within 24" on a roll of 5+, and hood's are even better. They now roll a D6 and add your mastery to it vs the enemy's roll. Librarian's with mastery level 3 suddenly seem worth it, given that most other psykers in 40k will only be mastery level 1.


You forgot that all armies can try to dispel on a 6+, regardless of having psykers or being in range.

Bruteboss wrote:
5) forceweapons won't auto kill monsterous creatures. As there are now "levels" of eternal warrior and instant death, force weapons won't be auto killing any of the big baddies now that they all get EW3 (I think) as a baseline for being monsterous. Instead you just cause extra wounds against them. Overall, probably fair given how hard GK screws over tyranid MCs.


Can't find anything about monstrous giving free EW(Anything).

Bruteboss wrote:6) Stormraven's are badass. They are supersonic flyers now so pretty much every unit in the game will only be hitting them on a 6+ in shooting and they are impossible to hit in cc by anything that isn't flying or jump infantry. I didn't look too closely at the flyer rules but overall, they seem to be a huge benefit to this unit, meaning we shouldn't be surprised to see 2 or more of them in alot of GK armies.


They're buffed through the roof, yeah. Keep in mind that there's probably going to be some dedicated anti-air units popping up though.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/12 21:12:00


Post by: Saldiven


IMHO, this thread is, while interesting, largely a waste of time. At this point, we cannot even be sure if the leaked rules are actually from GW. Additionally, assuming the leak is actual GW material, there is no way to tell how much might change from the creation of that document to the document that actually reaches the printers.

While it is an interesting intellectual exercise to consider what impact these rules have on various different codices, I'm afraid that most will be very disappointed when they discover their carefully thought out tactics don't mesh with the rules that actually appear in the next incarnation of the BRB.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/12 21:32:40


Post by: Roboute


Based on an (admittedly cursory) glance though the supposed 6e leaked rules, I have to say I'm extremely skeptical. Odds are this isn't the real deal. It's mainly little things that jump out at me, but this document just doesn't seem like it's genuine. Regardless, I have to agree with Saldiven that even if the rules are real leaked material, it's too early to begin speculating on the changes involved.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/12 21:35:49


Post by: Experiment 626


Saldiven wrote:IMHO, this thread is, while interesting, largely a waste of time. At this point, we cannot even be sure if the leaked rules are actually from GW. Additionally, assuming the leak is actual GW material, there is no way to tell how much might change from the creation of that document to the document that actually reaches the printers.

While it is an interesting intellectual exercise to consider what impact these rules have on various different codices, I'm afraid that most will be very disappointed when they discover their carefully thought out tactics don't mesh with the rules that actually appear in the next incarnation of the BRB.


+1 this.

IF these leaked rules are the real deal, then it's almost certainly the same thing as happened with 5th ed - the rules are the very earliest play-test versions. (anyone else recall how psychology was supposed to be 'the big thing' in the leaked 5th ed rules?! )

As for warp quake potentially getting nerfed, my poor Daemons can only jump for joy! Serves you right for getting something that moronically stupid-good in the first place!

Cheers!
- A poor Daemon player who's now suffered over a dozen quake-shunt insta-wins


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/13 00:36:58


Post by: Bruteboss


As I said at the beginning, I think this is the real deal as far as a test copy is concerned. I've seen the "leak" codexes and 5th edition rules back when it was new and this looks just as legitimate as the real leaks that have gone out in the past, (for example the GK play test codex). Things changed between release and the test copy, its true, but the core was there and nothing was drastically different between them. If this is a fake, its the best one I've seen because most of them are incredibly easy to spot. If I were making a fake leak, I wouldn't put in so many drastic changes from the current edition, because this one is a completely different game as far as I'm concerned.

These sort of mental exercises are 100% worth it for people playing an expensive game like 40k. Its worth knowing, or having an educated guess as to what will be competitive in the future environment giving that you could be buying and painting units that end up being near useless in the new edition. I won't be making new purchases for GK until 6th edition rolls around for real, but at least I can guess at how my army will look at the time.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/14 18:57:56


Post by: Joe Mama


Saldiven wrote:IMHO, this thread is, while interesting, largely a waste of time.


Ding ding ding, we have a winner, at least for me personally. It is fun for some people to play "what ifs", but that's all it is right now. If you like doing that, then it isn't a waste for you, but for me it is about as useful as arguing which superhero would win in a fight against another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bruteboss wrote:These sort of mental exercises are 100% worth it for people playing an expensive game like 40k. Its worth knowing, or having an educated guess as to what will be competitive in the future environment giving that you could be buying and painting units that end up being near useless in the new edition.


But you don't know if the leak is real, and even if you think it is, the final released rules could be so different as to make your current mental exercises worthless. Also:

I won't be making new purchases for GK until 6th edition rolls around for real


means you don't need to worry about wasting money!


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/15 13:54:29


Post by: wuestenfux


Well, looking at GK only is not enough. Other armies well get buffs and nerfs too. For instance, Kan wall gets a nerf as cover save will be reduced to 5+, and Vets/Chimera melta spam gets nerfed too since only one passenger can shoot from the hatch of a moving vehicle (not just 3 as it is now).


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/15 14:17:49


Post by: KingCracker


They're buffed through the roof, yeah. Keep in mind that there's probably going to be some dedicated anti-air units popping up though

Agreed, Im seeing an Ork Flakka trukk somewhere in my future



And yes, we dont know 100% if these are true or not. BUT the point of these discussions popping up, is most of us believe at least most of these rules will be 6th edition. So theres no reason complaining about them being fake. Just join the discussion on them, you just might be more prepared for 6th then the rest of the people at your table.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/15 14:20:57


Post by: oldone


Yeah it might be a fake but its a bloody good rule set, which i wouldn't say no to playing, i was looking into warmahordes just before christmas anyway, might as well play the game that i love.
personally although all psykers can now stop others from using there power libby's hood are just great, his psychic powers are awesome so why would you?
i'm thinking of a coteaz + libby with terminators backing them up, with psyilfemen, also looking into using land raiders, but not sure right now.
I can't remeber how our grenades have change but i do know that techmarines have gotten better being able to boast shooting instead of repairing (although you still can believe).
Also want do people think of dreadknights now? swords still over costed but have they got better or worse?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/15 14:21:50


Post by: wuestenfux


KingCracker wrote:
They're buffed through the roof, yeah. Keep in mind that there's probably going to be some dedicated anti-air units popping up though

Agreed, Im seeing an Ork Flakka trukk somewhere in my future

The Emperor will hopefully prevent this.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/16 03:21:31


Post by: jeffersonian000


From the Update:

Page 28 - Personal Teleporter (Interceptor Squad only):
Units with personal teleporters are Jump Infantry.
Once per game, the unit can elect to make a Teleport
move instead of a regular move. If making this teleport
shunt, the unit immediately makes a move of up to 30"
in any direction.


NDKs with PT are no longer Jump Infantry? Or is it that they no longer may Shunt? Or is this stating the NDK that take PT just wasted points on an option they can't use?

Page 54
Ignore the Daemonbane rule altogether.


Well, we aren't Daemonhunters anymore, that's for sure.

SJ


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/16 03:29:21


Post by: brassangel


The document is legit, but it's from a trial set stamped in May 2011, but play-tested well before that. There have since been changes...


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/16 04:36:28


Post by: sudojoe


I keep having it in my imagination that a personal teleporter dread knight somehow flying into the air like macross and hitting a storm raven with a thunder hammer.

err actually he'd just teleport on top of the plane I think wouldn't he?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/16 06:15:34


Post by: apple1988218


sudojoe wrote:I keep having it in my imagination that a personal teleporter dread knight somehow flying into the air like macross and hitting a storm raven with a thunder hammer.

err actually he'd just teleport on top of the plane I think wouldn't he?


teleport in front of the plane
and straight punch with the mighty FISTs!


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/16 20:43:34


Post by: liquidjoshi


brassangel wrote:The document is legit, but it's from a trial set stamped in May 2011, but play-tested well before that. There have since been changes...


??? Source please. That's a pretty sweeping statement, one I'm surprised no one else has pointed out if true.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/16 21:16:30


Post by: Joe Mama


brassangel wrote:The document is legit, but it's from a trial set stamped in May 2011, but play-tested well before that. There have since been changes...


But you are a known liar and saboteur. You are wanted in 13 different countries for improper relations with cheese and crackers. You kidnapped one of Santa's reindeer. With this kind of reputation, how can we trust you?

Now people reading this might be skeptical about my claims, but I have proof, oh yes, I do. I will only reveal it once you reveal your source for your above claims.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/17 01:07:54


Post by: junk


To get back to the OP's intention for this thread;

I'm not totally in agreement that Draigowing is 'dead'. All of the elements contributing to the familiar cry that "Paladins are OP" still exist:

2+/5++ (with armor group differentiation in CC from Staves, Swords)
WS 5 (which is arguably even better than it was before)
Psycannons are still Fantastic Weapons
FNP Is still great
Stormbolters are still great
Incinerators are even better
Holocaust is improved
Hammerhand hasn't lost value.
Against most enemies, force weapons are still good for +1W

Draigowing features (in some cases) Stormravens, which have gotten a HUGE boost.

Librarians haven't lost any effectiveness.

The only real loss to the DW is the loss of Wound Allocation BS.

Delivering them to battle has become easier:
Summoning has become a viable option.
Deep Strike is more reliable.
Soladins are arguably even better in Sieze ground missions because they are resilient scoring units that can deep strike and drop accurate blast markers on enemies.

To be fair, since I dusted off the old metal GK models, I've loved Paladins, and I'll be damned if I won't find a way to make them work in the new system.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/17 01:41:56


Post by: Bruteboss


junk wrote:To get back to the OP's intention for this thread;

I'm not totally in agreement that Draigowing is 'dead'. All of the elements contributing to the familiar cry that "Paladins are OP" still exist:

2+/5++ (with armor group differentiation in CC from Staves, Swords)
WS 5 (which is arguably even better than it was before)
Psycannons are still Fantastic Weapons
FNP Is still great
Stormbolters are still great
Incinerators are even better
Holocaust is improved
Hammerhand hasn't lost value.
Against most enemies, force weapons are still good for +1W

Draigowing features (in some cases) Stormravens, which have gotten a HUGE boost.

Librarians haven't lost any effectiveness.

The only real loss to the DW is the loss of Wound Allocation BS.

Delivering them to battle has become easier:
Summoning has become a viable option.
Deep Strike is more reliable.
Soladins are arguably even better in Sieze ground missions because they are resilient scoring units that can deep strike and drop accurate blast markers on enemies.

To be fair, since I dusted off the old metal GK models, I've loved Paladins, and I'll be damned if I won't find a way to make them work in the new system.


Thank you for bringing things back on track.

In regards to paladins, there are a few things that really mean trouble for this army if this rule set goes through

1) wound allocation. This is the real reason paladins are so good, so you really can't underestimate it. New rules mean that you will be losing paladins far faster than we do now.

2) "Alpha striking". If paladins are stuck in a combat, and another unit manages to charge them, that unit is now initiative 10. Combined with the new wound allocation and you will have very short, brutal fights where I wouldn't expect the paladins to last long.

All of the other points you mention are just as much of a boost to any other style of GK army, and more so because they won't face the paladin's negatives.

The real problem is that draigowing is a small, elite style army that only works in 5th edition because its so damn tough to kill any of them before they smash your face in. On top of that, no one wants to assault them unless its to hold them back for a turn. In 6th, shooting will be way more deadly to them and I would consider charging them with just about any cc type unit, so long as someone else hit them first. Try surviving a full ork mob hitting you like that in combination with the wound allocation rules, and then realize that they get to shoot at you after the fight.

Point is, there simply won't be enough paladins on the board to survive that kind of fight, even if they do still stomp face for the first few rounds of combat and shooting.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/17 09:18:35


Post by: wuestenfux


Well, Draigowing has certainly been nerfed as all Paladins belong to the same wound group. In opposition to this Nobz have not been nerfed in the same way since they can generate up to 4 wound groups.

Draigowing features (in some cases) Stormravens, which have gotten a HUGE boost.

I've not yet read the vehicle part. What's the deal here?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/18 02:04:13


Post by: jeffersonian000


Do all Paladins belong to the same armour group? Sword = 4++ saves, Staff = 2++ saves.

Maybe not at range, but definitely in melee.

SJ


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/18 02:56:07


Post by: Surfboard66


I haven't really looked over the leak but how are purifiers now?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/18 03:26:59


Post by: junk


GK in general looks like it's going to remain a top tier army. Both Shooting and Assault have gotten a boost in 6e.

While force weapons are less awesomesauce against big monsters, they still deal 2w in most cases, hammers are still wrecking balls.

Assault 2 is negligible compared to Rapid fire now, so storm bolters aren't the MASSIVE upgrade they used to be from bolters.

However Paladins and Purifiers are still murder in CC and very capable in shooting. The fact that Assaulting out of deep strike is now available, the fact that the entire army can deep strike is huge, and the removal of Deep Strike Mishaps is also a boon.

Assaults are resolved faster now, which works out in favor of our NFW wielding knights.

Incinerators have become amazing - providing extra killyness during an assault as well as gaining an extra 3" range.

If I'm reading correctly, a Paladin with a Psycannon/Sword will get 4 attacks on the charge, 5 if there's a banner in the squad; which seems completely insane.

Purifiers seem to have remained the same versatile and effective troops they've always been.

People are going back and forth regarding the effectiveness of Mechanized MSU armies... Rhinos/Razorbacks have moderately improved thanks to Tank Shock becoming incredible, but using them as a suicide transports has become more dangerous, as transporting squads has become riskier.

Cleansing Flame is still great. Fortitude is still great.
I can't stress enough how great incinerators and psycannons are, and with defensive fire actions, a psilencer isn't a terrible weapon either.

Because GK is a great balance of Shooting and Assault, it benefits from almost every change; except the aformention lost of wound allocation bulls*** that i've always hated anyway.

The ubiquitous psyfleman is still a monster, the dreadknight is even more terrifying now that it can assault after a shunt... GK has nothing to fear from 'schrodinger's ruleset'.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/18 08:38:02


Post by: grimz


What's the deal with incinerators now.?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/18 08:46:36


Post by: wuestenfux


jeffersonian000 wrote:Do all Paladins belong to the same armour group? Sword = 4++ saves, Staff = 2++ saves.

Maybe not at range, but definitely in melee.

SJ

Well, it seems to be possible to form several armor groups with Paladins: 2+/5++, 2+/4++, and 2+/2++.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/18 12:46:21


Post by: comrade_nikolai


Unfortunately I think patch up would still screw you though.

even if GK were nerfed, nothing I've seen would indicate they would fall below top teir, I don't think there's anything to worry about; they'll still be heavy hitters they are now.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/18 15:17:14


Post by: wuestenfux


junk wrote:GK in general looks like it's going to remain a top tier army. Both Shooting and Assault have gotten a boost in 6e.

While force weapons are less awesomesauce against big monsters, they still deal 2w in most cases, hammers are still wrecking balls.

Assault 2 is negligible compared to Rapid fire now, so storm bolters aren't the MASSIVE upgrade they used to be from bolters.

However Paladins and Purifiers are still murder in CC and very capable in shooting. The fact that Assaulting out of deep strike is now available, the fact that the entire army can deep strike is huge, and the removal of Deep Strike Mishaps is also a boon.

Assaults are resolved faster now, which works out in favor of our NFW wielding knights.

Incinerators have become amazing - providing extra killyness during an assault as well as gaining an extra 3" range.

If I'm reading correctly, a Paladin with a Psycannon/Sword will get 4 attacks on the charge, 5 if there's a banner in the squad; which seems completely insane.

Purifiers seem to have remained the same versatile and effective troops they've always been.

People are going back and forth regarding the effectiveness of Mechanized MSU armies... Rhinos/Razorbacks have moderately improved thanks to Tank Shock becoming incredible, but using them as a suicide transports has become more dangerous, as transporting squads has become riskier.

Cleansing Flame is still great. Fortitude is still great.
I can't stress enough how great incinerators and psycannons are, and with defensive fire actions, a psilencer isn't a terrible weapon either.

Because GK is a great balance of Shooting and Assault, it benefits from almost every change; except the aformention lost of wound allocation bulls*** that i've always hated anyway.

The ubiquitous psyfleman is still a monster, the dreadknight is even more terrifying now that it can assault after a shunt... GK has nothing to fear from 'schrodinger's ruleset'.

Well I wouldn't take the rules for granted, written in stone. The document is far from being well written - some say not by a native AE or BE.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/23 18:28:22


Post by: Joe Mama


Ok, so I skimmed the "rules" because I was bored. My brief thoughts.

From the part of the leak on transports, it seems like camping inside a transport and shooting out of fire points has been majorly, majorly nerfed. Reduced range down to 18 inches, and if the transport moves only one guy can fire out of it. I think this makes some henchmen lists cry.


junk wrote:Assault 2 is negligible compared to Rapid fire now, so storm bolters aren't the MASSIVE upgrade they used to be from bolters.


Where are you getting this from? The weapon example under Rapid Fire was listed as Rapid Fire 2, whereas a bolter later on in the leaked rulebook is listed as Rapid Fire 1. There is still a big difference between Rapid Fire 1, and Storm Bolters! Not the least of which is SBs give +1 attack on the charge. That little rule plus power weapons giving 5++ in CC, buffs Grey Knights pretty damn well if you ask me.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/23 18:35:07


Post by: apple1988218


GK's weapons are all two-handed, I don't think they can get +1A from another CCW.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/23 18:48:02


Post by: Joe Mama


apple1988218 wrote:GK's weapons are all two-handed,


Except they aren't. Power-armoed guys with heavy weapons, yes. Otherwise no.

Sure most of the arms in the PAGK kit are modeled as two hands holding the sword, but there are bits that are modeled as one handed as well. The rules don't claim they are two handed, and if we went on how they were modeled, rich jack asses would buy up all of the one handed sword arms to gain a massive competitive advantage.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/23 19:32:47


Post by: Roboute


apple1988218 wrote:GK's weapons are all two-handed, I don't think they can get +1A from another CCW.


Halberds are two-handed, and don't get the +1A.

Hammers are Coarse, and don't get the +1A.

Swords are one-handed, and so when paired with a SB or other assault weapon get +1A on the charge.

NFWs don't give a 5+ Invuln, as they aren't just basic power weapons.

Incinerators can now Fire Sweep, getting them D6 automatic hits on the charge at the model's I and the weapon's S and AP. Great for GKSS, not so great for Paladins (who are now going to get 3-5 NFW attacks on the charge anyways, depending on banner and assault weapon).


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/23 19:50:13


Post by: Joe Mama


Whoops, right. I was just talking about swords back there.

NFWs don't give a 5+ Invuln, as they aren't just basic power weapons.


That is illogical. If the rule is that power weapons give the wielder 5++ in CC, then NFW do this, because all NFW are power weapons. They are a sub class of power weapons


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/23 19:59:43


Post by: ShadarLogoth


Joe Mama wrote:Whoops, right. I was just talking about swords back there.

NFWs don't give a 5+ Invuln, as they aren't just basic power weapons.


That is illogical. If the rule is that power weapons give the wielder 5++ in CC, then NFW do this, because all NFW are power weapons. They are a sub class of power weapons


Except the rule in question only grants invulns to power weapons that "don't have any other special rules." NFW obviously have other special rules.

Personally though I think that is one of the most suspect of the leaked rules, as it would be a crazy strong buff to PWs that would disproportionately buff some units over others..


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/23 20:02:34


Post by: schadenfreude


The +1A from stormbolters means more to pagk than pallies.

If nemisis force swords give a 5++ in cc halberds will no longer be a must have on purifiers. Also a 5++ from swords would make purifiers far more competitive than Draigowing.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/23 20:08:56


Post by: Roboute


schadenfreude wrote:The +1A from stormbolters means more to pagk than pallies.

If nemisis force swords give a 5++ in cc halberds will no longer be a must have on purifiers. Also a 5++ from swords would make purifiers far more competitive than Draigowing.


As ShadarLogoth said, the 5++ is only for basic power weapons. The rule states that power weapons give a 5++ only if they have no other special rules.

The choice between swords and halberds is still going to be a bit tougher than before, as swords will allow an extra +1A on the charge with SBs.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/23 20:26:16


Post by: Joe Mama


ShadarLogoth wrote:Except the rule in question only grants invulns to power weapons that "don't have any other special rules." NFW obviously have other special rules.

Personally though I think that is one of the most suspect of the leaked rules, as it would be a crazy strong buff to PWs that would disproportionately buff some units over others..


Ah, that's what I get for not going back and re-reading the leak.

I am not sure that is the most suspect rule IMHO. The massive nerf on transports (can only shoot 18 inches out of one, only one guy can fire out of one if the transport moves) seems crazy suspect to me. And so does the general rule all snipers get.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 04:27:21


Post by: DarbNilbirts


If any of the decisions in the new 5th faqs carryover there is potential for falchions. The current faq rules them as a single ccw that adds +1A, not 2 ccws or even 2 handed, this could be added with the assult weapons being a second ccw on the charge for alot of swings.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 05:57:28


Post by: Bruteboss


Some of these arguments prove what an early leak of 6th this must be, as I admit some of the rules will break the game if they go through. Given the argument about assault weapons and NFW's, if the generous interpretation is right, and PA GK units get both a 5++ save and an extra attack in melee, they will be downright broken against some armies.

In all honestly, I don't expect NFW's to grant a 5++ save as that would be crazy to face to against for armies like daemons and orks. How exactly would a melee focused army like daemons deal with units that already get preferred enemy, drop them to I1 and a chance to insta kill with every wound, combined with 5++ save in melee and an extra attack? If purifiers got the charge on pretty much any unit of daemons, save maybe a fateweaver buffed deathstar, they would wipe it out no contest. Never mind what throwing in an IC with grenades and extra abilities will do. Orks have a tough enough time against purifiers without extra attacks and invulnerable saves being thrown in. There's no way that rule is going to extend to our units.

Considering that IC's can already snipe the insta-killing weapons out of a unit before it gets to swing (thanks to directed attacks with high base initiative or halberds), we really don't need more buffing in the melee department. Purifiers and terminators are absolutely overpowered (in the 6th ed leak) for units that are suppose to balance both shooting and assault.

The only reason I believe someone is seriously working to balance the game instead of buff GK to the sky is that paladins were nerfed with wound allocation and patch up. You take that 1 rule away and they would have been near unstoppable in this edition of the game. Paladins with up to 6 attacks each on the charge, then getting to shoot at full strength at a separate unit, is just painful to watch. The only thing that balances it out is how fast they die now compared to before.



6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 07:12:24


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Given the argument about assault weapons and NFW's, if the generous interpretation is right, and PA GK units get both a 5++ save and an extra attack in melee


Nemesis weapons are power weapons with additional rules, thus no 5++. They are force weapons, and not to mention they have additional rules such as +1 inv save, thus there is literally NO chance of gaining a 5++ in CC.

They lose complete instant death however as well due to force weapons being ID(2), so they will only do 2 wounds now, daemonbane is gone as well.

Yes they'll get an additional +1 to attack, so long as they aren't wielding two handed weapons (which is the Halberd, and the warding stave) Coarse weapons don't gain it as well (Doomhammers), and of course those with psycannons only get the basic attack of course.

So if you really want that +1 assault attack, you're going to need to take the falchions, or force sword... Yeah, not as concerned there.

There's also the fact they only give the +1 attack for ONE ROUND. It's either on charge or during the first turn, bit uncertain there.

Considering that IC's can already snipe the insta-killing weapons out of a unit before it gets to swing (thanks to directed attacks with high base initiative or halberds)


Two handed weapons can't direct attack. Meaning halberds. Coarse weapons cannot direct either, so no hammer targeting, same with the greatsword and doomfist.



6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 12:28:27


Post by: Lepuke


I think the Dreadknight got alot better with the new ID rules and monstrous close combat weapons.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 13:47:23


Post by: Pyriel-


6) Stormraven's are badass. They are supersonic flyers now so pretty much every unit in the game will only be hitting them on a 6+ in shooting and they are impossible to hit in cc by anything that isn't flying or jump infantry. I didn't look too closely at the flyer rules but overall, they seem to be a huge benefit to this unit, meaning we shouldn't be surprised to see 2 or more of them in alot of GK armies.

Dont believe this rule will make it.
If so then in reality this will screw over the whole game, unless DE flyers (and to an extent eldar flyers as well) wont count as supersonic then the whole DE army of 12+ boats will be utterly unstoppable.

If NFW swords dont get any benefit from the 5++ powerweapon buff and healbeards are nerfed then as I see it the whole GK melee is nerfed.

Also, how is summoning more viable now, what happens if a deepstriking unit scatters onto an enemy, they take only d6 wounds and can they assault right after summoning?



6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 14:08:24


Post by: sudojoe


I suspect that unless it's got a flying base it won't count as flying


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 14:23:28


Post by: Bruteboss


Pyriel- wrote:
6) Stormraven's are badass. They are supersonic flyers now so pretty much every unit in the game will only be hitting them on a 6+ in shooting and they are impossible to hit in cc by anything that isn't flying or jump infantry. I didn't look too closely at the flyer rules but overall, they seem to be a huge benefit to this unit, meaning we shouldn't be surprised to see 2 or more of them in alot of GK armies.

Dont believe this rule will make it.
If so then in reality this will screw over the whole game, unless DE flyers (and to an extent eldar flyers as well) wont count as supersonic then the whole DE army of 12+ boats will be utterly unstoppable.

If NFW swords dont get any benefit from the 5++ powerweapon buff and healbeards are nerfed then as I see it the whole GK melee is nerfed.

Also, how is summoning more viable now, what happens if a deepstriking unit scatters onto an enemy, they take only d6 wounds and can they assault right after summoning?



Flyer rules are going to make it into the game whether this leak is real or not. Forge world has been quietly refining and pushing them out in IA books for awhile now and its pretty established fact that GW plans to incorporate forgeworld stuff into the main game line so that they are tournament legal and therefore make the company more money. Expect superheavies and flyers in your 6th edition games however real this leak turns out to be.

As to flyers being broken, the leak literally has a stratagem (the points you bid on to get first turn) to give any unit you want the AA rules. It means they always hit flyers on EV3 (basically hitting on 3 for GK) no matter how fast it went. Flyers aren't so scary with a couple of AA psybolt dakka dreads in the back field ripping them apart.

As to summoning, you've combined the rules for warp quake and deep striking by accident. Its warp quake that causes d6 wounds if anything deep strikes within 12" (which also, interestingly, means you get to shoot them). Deep striking, and summoning, now don't scatter if you do it 18" away from an enemy. Get close and you scatter as normal, the difference being that you get to move your units the minimum required to place them clear of any terrain or models they would land on. You do stuffer a stun (pinned) result for doing that, but thats far, far better than the 5th edition insta death from before.

Deep striking in general is safer and way higher reward-to-risk than the current edition. Keep in mind that now infiltrating and outflanking count as deep striking, so you will see this rule in action a whole lot more.

Last, and most importantly, where are you and everyone else getting that warding staves and halberds are twohanded weapons? I understand the daemonhammer because it specifically follows the rules for thunderhammers. But there's nothing (to my knowledge) to support the claims about the other NFWs other than that the power armor GK models carry it 2 handed. Its 1 handed for all terminators and nothing in the GK codex says otherwise. I'm pretty sure I could model my guys as going 1 handed and it would be perfectly legal. So we will be getting the assault weapon boost because that was basically the intention. Do you know how few armies would actually benefit from that rule if GK don't get it?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 14:23:42


Post by: ZebioLizard2


If so then in reality this will screw over the whole game, unless DE flyers (and to an extent eldar flyers as well) wont count as supersonic then the whole DE army of 12+ boats will be utterly unstoppable.


Please read the codex updates, Eldar do not have fliers. Not to mention raiders/venoms are not fliers, the only fliers Dark Eldar have is the Void raider bomber, and the jet fighter

And of the flyer rules, supersonic only grants them flying once per turn. They can only target things within 2", (unless making a bombing run), can be selected in the assault phase by one of your units within 3" (which voids their flyer protection), and if you have anti-air, you can shoot them down easily still.

Please, read the rulebook before making these weird comments.


If NFW swords dont get any benefit from the 5++ powerweapon buff and healbeards are nerfed then as I see it the whole GK melee is nerfed.


So they are nerfed..Because they are exactly the same? What kind of logic is this? They are already all wielding Force Weapons, Instant Death 2 weapons, and you'd like them to get a 5++ save on top of that with all their neat little bonuses? Yeah no.

Halberds are the exact same (Unless there's a Healbeard I have yet to see, is it dwarf fortress related? _) They just cannot direct target in assault.

There is literally nothing changed, you still benefit from all the new rules, and you are still very powerful in melee.

Also, how is summoning more viable now, what happens if a deepstriking unit scatters onto an enemy, they take only d6 wounds and can they assault right after summoning?


They are summoned from anywhere on the tabletop and placed within 6", they do not use deep strike rules, They make a teleportation movement. They cannot use stationary actions (shooting heavy weapons for example), but they can still do an engage movement. (Unsure of this as well)


Last, and most importantly, where are you and everyone else getting that warding staves and halberds are twohanded weapons?


Page 54: Nemesis Halberds are Two Handed weapons

Its 1 handed for all terminators and nothing in the GK codex says otherwise


Well unless they come out with an errata for terminators specifically that says they can use two handed weapons one handed, this rule takes precedence for anything you can really come up with for it, you are not being allowed to model for advantage here. They can still use it with the other weapons aside from Halberds, ward staves potentially as well (not so sure there, thought it had two-handed, but you may be right there.)

If you want that charge bonus with assault weapons, you still have Falchions, force sword, and the warding stave.

Two-handed
Two handed-weapons cannot be combined with a
secondary weapon or be used as a secondary
weapon. Two-handed weapons can never be used
to inflict directed hits, even if the wielder has a
corresponding special rule.


Assault weapons:
Note that
the model needs a one-handed primary close
combat weapon to claim the attack bonus


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 15:34:57


Post by: Pyriel-


As to flyers being broken, the leak literally has a stratagem (the points you bid on to get first turn) to give any unit you want the AA rules. It means they always hit flyers on EV3 (basically hitting on 3 for GK) no matter how fast it went. Flyers aren't so scary with a couple of AA psybolt dakka dreads in the back field ripping them apart.

Then this means that there goes the stormraven being awesomely buffed too since the opponent can get AA as well?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 15:38:49


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Pyriel- wrote:
As to flyers being broken, the leak literally has a stratagem (the points you bid on to get first turn) to give any unit you want the AA rules. It means they always hit flyers on EV3 (basically hitting on 3 for GK) no matter how fast it went. Flyers aren't so scary with a couple of AA psybolt dakka dreads in the back field ripping them apart.

Then this means that there goes the stormraven being awesomely buffed too since the opponent can get AA as well?


If he wants to pay his precious strategem points (If he goes second, remember you can get the strategem points too as well), on AA, than he can.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 19:07:20


Post by: Joe Mama


Does no one but me care about the transport rules in the alleged leak?

Only can fire 18 inches out of a fire point, and if the transport moves, only one guy can fire from inside the vehicle? That would massively impact some GK lists. Henchmen especially. Purifier lists too. Because with 5 purifiers and 2 psycannons, on any turn the transport moves, your fire output is the same as the significantly cheaper 5 Strikers and 1 psycannon.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 19:22:38


Post by: Roboute


Joe Mama wrote:Does no one but me care about the transport rules in the alleged leak?

Only can fire 18 inches out of a fire point, and if the transport moves, only one guy can fire from inside the vehicle? That would massively impact some GK lists. Henchmen especially. Purifier lists too. Because with 5 purifiers and 2 psycannons, on any turn the transport moves, your fire output is the same as the significantly cheaper 5 Strikers and 1 psycannon.


Personally, I like the leaked transport rules. Transports are still very useful for getting from Point A to Point B (aka they're useful as ... transports), but they're no longer perfect for sticking your entire army into and meching around the entire game. It does invalidate the mech style of play somewhat (at least the lists that rely on keeping everyone in transports), but I've never found that kind of game very interesting anyways. I want to be able to show my pretty models off on the table without relying on my opponent to pop their Rhino first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pyriel- wrote:Then this means that there goes the stormraven being awesomely buffed too since the opponent can get AA as well?


It's not so much about stratagems as it is about an infantry unit within 3" being able to light the stormraven up and remove its buffed Evasion. Furthermore, even if 6's to hit are required, any immobilised or stunned result on the flyer will destroy it immediately, so supersonic sacrifices some durability.

As I believe you brought up in another thread a while ago, the Stormraven doesn't really have effective firepower for its point cost. That hasn't changed. Zooming around while supersonic mitigates many of the advantages of the SR (Assault Vehicle, PotMS)


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 19:44:03


Post by: Pyriel-


Only can fire 18 inches out of a fire point, and if the transport moves, only one guy can fire from inside the vehicle? That would massively impact some GK lists. Henchmen especially. Purifier lists too. Because with 5 purifiers and 2 psycannons, on any turn the transport moves, your fire output is the same as the significantly cheaper 5 Strikers and 1 psycannon.

Is this a 3++ save nerf only?
How about open topped transports?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 19:50:25


Post by: DarbNilbirts


all models in an open topped can shoot, still only 18" though.
In the special rules under transports that some things have(assult vehicle, open topped, ect.) there is the com station rule, that removes the 18" limit. from what i can see there the only place to get it currently is for fortifications, but I could be seen on more things in the future. ( i could see an HQ chimera or the SM command rhino geting it if the added it)


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 19:56:49


Post by: Joe Mama


Roboute wrote:Personally, I like the leaked transport rules. Transports are still very useful for getting from Point A to Point B (aka they're useful as ... transports), but they're no longer perfect for sticking your entire army into and meching around the entire game. It does invalidate the mech style of play somewhat (at least the lists that rely on keeping everyone in transports), but I've never found that kind of game very interesting anyways. I want to be able to show my pretty models off on the table without relying on my opponent to pop their Rhino first.


Whether you like it or not, it still is a pretty big nerf. Sure it hurts people more who camp inside Rhinos with rocket launchers or whatever, but it still messes up a current good style of play for GK.

It does invalidate the mech style of play somewhat


Somewhat? LOL, that's an understatement. Chimeras need to sit still to make use of more than one fire point. That's huge. MSU purifiers wouldn't be nearly as good.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 22:14:59


Post by: Roboute


Joe Mama wrote:Somewhat? LOL, that's an understatement. Chimeras need to sit still to make use of more than one fire point. That's huge. MSU purifiers wouldn't be nearly as good.


Don't most MSU purifiers use Psybacks for the extra firepower anyways? I guess I'm ambivalent about Rhino vs. Psyback, the Rhino keeps everyone in a metal box but the Psybacks are substantially more shooty for only 10pts more.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/24 22:22:50


Post by: Joe Mama


Roboute wrote:
Joe Mama wrote:Somewhat? LOL, that's an understatement. Chimeras need to sit still to make use of more than one fire point. That's huge. MSU purifiers wouldn't be nearly as good.


Don't most MSU purifiers use Psybacks for the extra firepower anyways? I guess I'm ambivalent about Rhino vs. Psyback, the Rhino keeps everyone in a metal box but the Psybacks are substantially more shooty for only 10pts more.


What a strange response. Are you trying to subtly argue that the transport rules in the leak wouldn't be a big deal (even though they are)? I am not sure what most use, but 5 guys, 2 with psycannons inside the protective bunker of a Rhino, is pretty damn good in 5th edition. In 6th, it is not anywhere close to as good. And for anyone using chimeras to shoot out of, the supposed 6th edition rules nerf them pretty hard. So hard that some people running henchmen would fall on the ground into a fetal position and cry.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 00:35:43


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Joe Mama wrote:
Roboute wrote:
Joe Mama wrote:Somewhat? LOL, that's an understatement. Chimeras need to sit still to make use of more than one fire point. That's huge. MSU purifiers wouldn't be nearly as good.


Don't most MSU purifiers use Psybacks for the extra firepower anyways? I guess I'm ambivalent about Rhino vs. Psyback, the Rhino keeps everyone in a metal box but the Psybacks are substantially more shooty for only 10pts more.


What a strange response. Are you trying to subtly argue that the transport rules in the leak wouldn't be a big deal (even though they are)? I am not sure what most use, but 5 guys, 2 with psycannons inside the protective bunker of a Rhino, is pretty damn good in 5th edition. In 6th, it is not anywhere close to as good. And for anyone using chimeras to shoot out of, the supposed 6th edition rules nerf them pretty hard. So hard that some people running henchmen would fall on the ground into a fetal position and cry.


It of course also means that Jokero can now fire out their heavy weaponry in that relentless 18" bubble, same with servitors. Park that chimera somewhere and blast away!


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 00:44:21


Post by: ColdSadHungry


junk wrote:
However Paladins and Purifiers are still murder in CC and very capable in shooting. The fact that Assaulting out of deep strike is now available, the fact that the entire army can deep strike is huge, and the removal of Deep Strike Mishaps is also a boon.


Purifiers can't actually deep strike, which is a bit poop.

Whilst I agree that GK will remain one of the top armies, I believe that they have taken a nerf overall. The fact that normal power weapons grant a 5+ invul means that, in some cases, GK weaponry will be less effective. Not hugely so but there will be a difference. And GK don't benefit from the 5+ with any of their weapons.

The additional attacks granted by assault weapons is a rule all armies can benefit from but GK halberds are two handed so to take advantage of the extra attacks GK need to lose the halberds, dropping from I6 to I4. Alpha strikes at I10 will also beat halberds.

The OP mentioned warp quake being nerfed. I suppose it has but D6 critical hits is potentially devastating whereas an auto mishap as we get now won't necessarily damage the unit so it's a change that's as good as it is bad. Where I've noticed a nerf is with cleansing flame - it now only affects 'engaged' models rather than all the models in a unit which potentially lowers the amount of damage it can cause. This negative is somewhat mitigated by the fact that models within 3" of those in b2b are now classed as engaged, rather than 2". It just means that extremely large units are likely to take less damage from cleansing flame.

Lots of glancing hits can now wreck/destroy vehicles. As pointed out to me in the rumour thread, it may take a hell of a lot to glance AV14 to death but for GK, who can put out a hell of a lot of firepower that can score bang on 14 for armour pen (Psy Dread Auto cannons and psycannons) I think this is good news. Hitting Dreads on the rear armour in CC is a bad thing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Yes they'll get an additional +1 to attack, so long as they aren't wielding two handed weapons (which is the Halberd, and the warding stave) Coarse weapons don't gain it as well (Doomhammers), and of course those with psycannons only get the basic attack of course.




Actually, Warding Staves aren't listed as two handed so they should get the +1. Or am I missing a rule that tells us staves are two handed somewhere else? It's just that on the page that details each NFW, the codex specifically tells us halberds are two handed whereas it does not tell us the staves are.


EDIT* Re the 5+ save for power weapons. The listing for force weapons is as follows:

Force weapons are potent psychic weapons only
used by trained Psykers. They have the same
effects as power weapons, but can also be
charged with sprawling psionic energy that can
instantly extinguish the life force of any
opponent.

So, by RAW, you accept that it is a Force Weapon first but that it also has the same effect as a power weapon. A power weapon grants a 5+ invul save so, this should grant the wielder a 5+ save because you are given it due to the wording of the rule that tells us the force weapon has the same effects as a power weapon. Now, in the case of the NF sword, it already grants a +1 to an invul save IF the model already has an invul save. If the bearer has no invul save, there is no effect. So could it be argued that in the case of a PAGK, a 5+ would be granted because the special rule has no effect? There is clearly a special rule attached to the weapon but it has no effect on power armour.

I'm only playing devil's advocate here and I admit that it's wishful thinking at best that all of a sudden every GK could have an invul save but by the way it's written, I can see how it could be argued that a sword on a PAGK does grant a 5++ but I would expect GW to rule that it doesn't.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 01:24:02


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Actually, Warding Staves aren't listed as two handed so they should get the +1. Or am I missing a rule that tells us staves are two handed somewhere else? It's just that on the page that details each NFW, the codex specifically tells us halberds are two handed whereas it does not tell us the staves are.


I had thought stave's were listed as two handed, so that was my bad.

. Now, in the case of the NF sword, it already grants a +1 to an invul save IF the model already has an invul save. If the bearer has no invul save, there is no effect. So could it be argued that in the case of a PAGK, a 5+ would be granted because the special rule has no effect?


It has an effect on the sword, even if it is not being used, meaning it is a power weapon with special rules attached

Some very rare power weapons may even
give a Strength bonus or have other additional
special rules, as detailed in the appropriate army
Codex;


It does not need to be in effect to prevent the blocking for parry. It just needs an effect on it. Like I wish I could block with the relic blade, but it is a power weapon with additional rules. The executioner for Banshee's is the same way, so no saves there.



6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 01:32:20


Post by: Joe Mama


ZebioLizard2 wrote:It of course also means that Jokero can now fire out their heavy weaponry in that relentless 18" bubble, same with servitors. Park that chimera somewhere and blast away!


Yes, ok, that relentless thing is a plus. But if the transport moves, only one servitor, or only one jokero can fire out of the transport. And only at 18 inches. Yay?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 01:53:18


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Joe Mama wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:It of course also means that Jokero can now fire out their heavy weaponry in that relentless 18" bubble, same with servitors. Park that chimera somewhere and blast away!


Yes, ok, that relentless thing is a plus. But if the transport moves, only one servitor, or only one jokero can fire out of the transport. And only at 18 inches. Yay?


It's still an upgrade to No heavy weapons being fired on the move . Now you can fire plasma cannons out the port view window at those annoying DoA marines.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 01:56:00


Post by: Joe Mama


ZebioLizard2 wrote: Now you can fire a single plasma cannon out the port view window at those annoying DoA marines.


Fixed.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 05:15:37


Post by: DarbNilbirts


Rapid fire weapons can double tap at the magic 18" when relentless, so some units can get a buff from that.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 05:22:19


Post by: Lewa2321


DarbNilbirts wrote:Rapid fire weapons can double tap at the magic 18" when relentless, so some units can get a buff from that.

Yeah, the LRC's Hurricane bolters just got a lot more fun thanks to relentless

Speaking of the LRC and Hurricane bolters, Psybolt ammo looks to be viable on it now since multi-targetting (unlike defensive weaponry) doesn't care about weapon strength.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 18:11:16


Post by: Joe Mama


DarbNilbirts wrote:Rapid fire weapons can double tap at the magic 18" when relentless, so some units can get a buff from that.


Just not anything worthwhile in the GK codex though. What are you going to stick in a transport that is going to work well under the supposed 6th edition rules?


Losing shooting range, and trading all but one fire point for relentless ain't a good deal at all.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/25 20:48:21


Post by: Hyd


One psycannon firing in Heavy mode thanks to Relentless is the same as two firing in Assault mode.

So there's the range reduction, which puts you in rapid fire range against infantry and assault range against cavalry/jump infantry.

If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 00:34:57


Post by: Joe Mama


Hyd wrote:If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.


What do you mean if? Did you forget what you said a mere sentence earlier than this?


Also, the other guy was talking about relentless rapid firers in transports acting as a buff in some cases (even though there is reduced range and even though only one guy could fire out of a transport when it moves). Don't see where that buffs any squad any GK player has been using. And "tailoring" a squad like that for this probably fake 6th edition leak would be what, a henchmen squad, with only one guy having a plasma gun? Wow, what a buff!


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 01:38:34


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Joe Mama wrote:
Hyd wrote:If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.


What do you mean if? Did you forget what you said a mere sentence earlier than this?


Also, the other guy was talking about relentless rapid firers in transports acting as a buff in some cases (even though there is reduced range and even though only one guy could fire out of a transport when it moves). Don't see where that buffs any squad any GK player has been using. And "tailoring" a squad like that for this probably fake 6th edition leak would be what, a henchmen squad, with only one guy having a plasma gun? Wow, what a buff!


People usually take the standard henchmen squads in razorbacks anyways. So if you really want to take advantage, take a servitor with a plasma/heavybolter or a Jokero.

Or even the psyker squad, which still has its standard blast due to only firing from one person


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 01:59:18


Post by: Pyriel-


Came to think of something...
If you now can assault after deepstrike all those until now useless Mordrak builds might actually become real powerhouses and all of a sudden it makes sense that you can only take 5 ghost knights and not 10.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 08:00:12


Post by: Hyd


Joe Mama wrote:
Hyd wrote:If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.


What do you mean if? Did you forget what you said a mere sentence earlier than this?
... What I'm saying is, if that's what makes you cringe like that, then I cannot quite relate.

Pyriel, are you arguing that Deep Strike is altogether useless ? Mordrak differs only in that he arrives turn 1 with extreme precision, so if anything he's better than any other deepstriking option the Grey Knights can deploy.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 08:56:38


Post by: sudojoe


My new plan is now to have my vindicare riding around in his own man rhino/chimera and shoot 18' +6 ' movement at random stuff around the board.

I may also have to reconsider shoving a Culuxus assasin in a rhino and using it to screen a 10 man strike squad running behind it giving him like +11 attacks out the tank. (13 strr 5 AP1 attacks should blow up some infantry nicely)

And yes, the monkies with some henchmen would not be a bad idea. (I'm sorry to all my future opponents but I am gonna have to use some ork models for'em just cause I can't stand to pay so much money per space monkey little less paiting them)

Also, may even shove someone with an orbital strike relay and have them ride around dropping the heavy lance blast templates on the move.

My big beef with servitors is mindlock or I'd love to shove 3 plasma cannons into everyplace.



6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 09:04:04


Post by: ZebioLizard2


I may also have to reconsider shoving a Culuxus assasin in a rhino and using it to screen a 10 man strike squad running behind it giving him like +11 attacks out the tank. (13 strr 5 AP1 attacks should blow up some infantry nicely)


Think you might be getting his rule wrong, he only gets +1 attack per Grey knight UNIT due to the Brotherhood of Psykers rules, not model.

"The unit counts as a Single Psyker and follows all the normal rules for Psykers, with the following clarification"

However I am rather unsure about the Psyker Battalion Henchmen Unit. They are only counted as a single Psyker for Psyker test purposes. So I really don't know what to say for this one.



Also, may even shove someone with an orbital strike relay and have them ride around dropping the heavy lance blast templates on the move.


By this rule of Bombardment in the 6th edition, you cannot.

Bombardment
Model Type: Shooting, Stationary, Disembarked
A model performing this action can call down an
artillery strike or use weapons that are so
cumbersome that even vehicles need to remain
stationary to fire them. A model that executes an
Bombardment action cannot perform any other
Shooting actions in that turn.


As the orbital strike relay is counted as

Page 58 - Orbital strike relay
The orbital strike relay is treated as a ranged weapon
that can be fired by a single Bombardment action


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 09:18:17


Post by: sudojoe


ahh darn. Dunno how I missed that. well there goes another idea. Maybe I'll just throw a bunch of psycher henchmen in a rhino and have the culuxes out in front XD


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 12:10:17


Post by: Pyriel-


Pyriel, are you arguing that Deep Strike is altogether useless ? Mordrak differs only in that he arrives turn 1 with extreme precision, so if anything he's better than any other deepstriking option the Grey Knights can deploy

Well right now Mordeak is useless, havent seen any Mordrak builds in competitive gaming ever.
BUT...if you can assault after deepstrike in 6:ed then Mordrak will become the new cheese as you DS him, 5 ghostknights and a second HQ without scatter and assault the enemy right away.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 12:18:21


Post by: Hyd


That's saying offensive Deep Strikes are useless. Mordrak does it better than anyone else, so if Mordrak is useless then so is DS. Just wanted to be sure that's what you meant.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 14:20:36


Post by: Pyriel-


That's saying offensive Deep Strikes are useless. Mordrak does it better than anyone else, so if Mordrak is useless then so is DS. Just wanted to be sure that's what you meant.

That are your words not mine and I would appreciate it if you refrained from trying to put them in my mouth!

Offensive deepstrikes are far from good if they occur alone. This is why Deathwing and drop pod assault have said offensive deepstrikes altered to actually make them usable.
Last time I checked having the option for massed simultaneous deepstrikes hands down beats having one small deepstriker coming in alone, be it without scatter but also without any special weapons like flamers/meltas to utilize said lack of scatter.

Besides, care to show me the tournament winning GK lists that are built around Mordrak?
I mean if he is so good and all that you shouldnt have any problems with this.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 15:13:28


Post by: ZebioLizard2


As it is, Grand master murdok is pretty much a fluffy choice, sure you can take him and deepstrike him, but as it is he'll just be popped by instant death with his T4, making his wounds that make ghost knights useless.

It's like taking deathleaper in the current enviroment, even with a 3++ save you really don't want him in cover, because the stormbolter isn't exactly a good thing about him. And he's better up close with his terminator army. As it is, he's basically a "Please smack me with all the dark lances you have" Target. And than you have lost 400 points.

If he had EW, he'd actually be useful, able to survive, but if you really want a grand master with a daemonhammer so badly, take a normal one, it's cheaper. Either that, or the deep strike assault would help even more as he would have Heroic Deepstrike, which allows him to avoid Defensive fire in the 6th edition.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 17:04:19


Post by: wuestenfux


Pyriel- wrote:
Pyriel, are you arguing that Deep Strike is altogether useless ? Mordrak differs only in that he arrives turn 1 with extreme precision, so if anything he's better than any other deepstriking option the Grey Knights can deploy

Well right now Mordeak is useless, havent seen any Mordrak builds in competitive gaming ever.
BUT...if you can assault after deepstrike in 6:ed then Mordrak will become the new cheese as you DS him, 5 ghostknights and a second HQ without scatter and assault the enemy right away.

How about attaching a Tech Marine, too.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 17:18:01


Post by: Hyd


Pyriel- wrote:That are your words not mine and I would appreciate it if you refrained from trying to put them in my mouth!

Offensive deepstrikes are far from good if they occur alone. This is why Deathwing and drop pod assault have said offensive deepstrikes altered to actually make them usable.
Last time I checked having the option for massed simultaneous deepstrikes hands down beats having one small deepstriker coming in alone, be it without scatter but also without any special weapons like flamers/meltas to utilize said lack of scatter.

Besides, care to show me the tournament winning GK lists that are built around Mordrak?
I mean if he is so good and all that you shouldnt have any problems with this.
Now that's more the kind of answer I was trying to get, but since you just reiterated your first statement after my post, I resorted to a less subtle approach.
I was not trying to make a point about Mordrak himself or his competitive use, you seem to be putting words in my mouth too. The thing is, pretty much everything that has been said against him also applies to normal GK Terminator squads, so I came to wonder if the general idea was that DS is a poor option overall (bearing in mind the topic is Grey Knights).

This works in reverse too. With the number of GK troops able to DS, the prospect of charging upon arrival is quite interesting to say the least... Might want to provide them a beacon or a servo-skull though.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 18:02:39


Post by: Pyriel-


Well I was kind of lazy thinking people already know these things so I didnt bother to write an essay on the matter of deep striking

If the assault after DS rumors are true GKs will be a powerhouse of an army. Mordrak is just the beginning.
Also if the stormbolters granting +1A on the charge are true even better.
Imagine what a psychic communion inq HQ can do with 50 strike knights, 3 tecchie skulls and 10 terminators when everything (except the hidden inq) deepstrikes on a 3+ and assaults right afterwards.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/26 23:40:43


Post by: sudojoe


As it is, Grand master murdok is pretty much a fluffy choice, sure you can take him and deepstrike him, but as it is he'll just be popped by instant death with his T4, making his wounds that make ghost knights useless.


while it's true that EW would make him better, his T4 ID hasn't really ever come up for me when I've used him. As he's not an IC and can't be singled out, I can assign any ID wounds to his ghost knights. So far it hasn't happened anyway but I've yet to get hit by enough Str 8+ hits to kill the whole squad in one go unless I suppose you drop him in the middle of the entire enemy army. I usually perfer to drop him i nthe flank somewhere (usually behind some LOS) so I can get the charge on turn 2 or at the least distract the enemy to force him to open up a weaker flank if they go after him.

What I hate though is that some people who know just reserve everything and then all my deep strike business gets all confused XD


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/27 02:06:28


Post by: Joe Mama


ZebioLizard2 wrote:People usually take the standard henchmen squads in razorbacks anyways.


Usually? I don't know. Maybe. But it is not like having special weapons firing out of a chimera or Rhino is bad now - it is a good option in some lists. If these leaked rules which are probably fake turn out to be true, well then no one in their right mind would bother with meched up henchmen, like 3 melta gunners plus others in a chimera, or multiple MM servitors and other stuff in a chimera or:

So if you really want to take advantage, take a servitor with a plasma/heavybolter or a Jokero.


Servitor requires an inquisitor so as not to make the unit terrible. I suppose a Jokero could be in a unit as the sole 'gun', but then again, all you get from that is 18 inch range lascannons and the like, which is pretty awful. That's not really "taking advantage" that is doing your best with a huge nerf.

Or even the psyker squad, which still has its standard blast due to only firing from one person


Their shooting attack can already happen on the move....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hyd wrote:
Joe Mama wrote:
Hyd wrote:If that's a mech nerf, I'm afraid I can't sympathize.


What do you mean if? Did you forget what you said a mere sentence earlier than this?
... What I'm saying is, if that's what makes you cringe like that, then I cannot quite relate.


Yes, I know that's what you tried to say earlier, but completely failed in your execution. Which is why I used a smiley face after I busted your balls.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/27 08:04:49


Post by: Hyd


Joe Mama wrote:Yes, I know that's what you tried to say earlier, but completely failed in your execution. Which is why I used a smiley face after I busted your balls.
Wow, ain't you a scary tough guy.
Hate to break it to you but you're not busting anyone, you're just sounding annoying for not getting over this mech "nerf" without showing much will to discuss things intelligently. Your last post shows there is some hope though.

I myself like the idea of the Vindicare getting his own metal box, if only for tactical flexibility.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/27 13:24:34


Post by: sudojoe


myself like the idea of the Vindicare getting his own metal box, if only for tactical flexibility.


Technically you can do this now cept your range with the vindicare is only 12' (+6' tank movement for 18' threat range, less than the presumed 6th edition of 18+6 (24') but still kind of viable to get out of the dangerous assault units headed your way. 36' camping is all good though, 2+ cover with techmarine rawr). Not that bad considering that you can move around and what not.

Almost everyone forgets that he has a sniper pistol that's the same as his main gun cept shorter range.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/28 00:18:09


Post by: Joe Mama


Hyd wrote:
Joe Mama wrote:Yes, I know that's what you tried to say earlier, but completely failed in your execution. Which is why I used a smiley face after I busted your balls.
Wow, ain't you a scary tough guy.
Hate to break it to you but you're not busting anyone, you're just sounding annoying for not getting over this mech "nerf" without showing much will to discuss things intelligently. Your last post shows there is some hope though.


Wow, sensitive much? And apparently ignorant of common expressions about balls? Since when does someone have to be a tough guy, or a guy generally, to point out poor sentence construction resulting in erroneous statements? You said "if it is a nerf" when it clearly is a nerf. You wrote your sentence incorrectly.

And now you are implying I am stupid, because I think the transport nerf is a much bigger deal than you do. Stay classy my friend.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/28 02:13:11


Post by: Bruteboss


Both of you are getting too personal and insulting with your comments. So I suggest you take it out of this thread and pm each other insults all you want.

In regards to the mech nerf, I'm afraid complaining will get zero sympathy from me. Mech armies are a very much a 5th edition monster and something I will be glad to see die off in the next edition

There is a place for it, and vehicles are still very powerful, as evidence from the flyer and tank rules. But the days of every army being nothing but metal boxes are gone and I will be happy to see the end of that style of play.

I still plan on running plenty of tanks in my army, even henchmen. I just don't expect to stay in them the entire game now and might have to actually get my units out and think about how to play.

Any GK that aren't paladins or deep striking are still going to need transports to get from point A to B and live, you just have to more afterwards than "sit in safe metal box and shoot out all day".


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/28 04:01:14


Post by: schadenfreude


Razorspam would be the 6th ed powerhouse build.

In 5th ed AV11 tanks with tl psyammo ac are expensive and fragile. Under the leak being talked about they would be mt2 with 1 gun, so they could still move and shoot after weapon destroyed results. They would always move unless immobolized, so everybody would get +1 to hit, but all glances/pens would be 1 less on the damage table. Net result is a greater number of hits, glances, pens, shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed, and imobolized, but less wrecked and explodes. Since the 1st weapon destroyed is irrelevent, and fortitude usually negates shaken/stunned AV11 gk razorbacks would then be tough as nails.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/28 08:20:44


Post by: ZebioLizard2


schadenfreude wrote:Razorspam would be the 6th ed powerhouse build.

In 5th ed AV11 tanks with tl psyammo ac are expensive and fragile. Under the leak being talked about they would be mt2 with 1 gun, so they could still move and shoot after weapon destroyed results. They would always move unless
immobolized, so everybody would get +1 to hit, but all glances/pens would be 1 less on the damage table. Net result is a greater number of hits, glances, pens, shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed, and imobolized, but less wrecked and explodes. Since the 1st weapon destroyed is irrelevent, and fortitude usually negates shaken/stunned AV11 gk razorbacks would then be tough as nails.



Double stun results in weapons destroyed. Meaning fortitude is now weaker than living metal, as you can only do it on your turn. Being stunned alot will end up destroying weapons, no more shooting = immobilization, immobilization again wrecks you.

When you score a Crew - Stunned or Damaged -
Immobilised result while the vehicle already is
already stunned or permanently immobile, the
roll is treated as the next higher result. A vehicle
can suffer several Damaged - Weapons results,
but once the vehicle cannot shoot anymore, any
further result is also treated as the next higher.
Thus a single roll on the Vehicle Damage table
may be increased several times.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/28 08:34:54


Post by: sudojoe


basically, necrons will be best vehicles around from the sounds of things. Frankly I'm seeing alot of storm ravens and dread knights with proper support with the continued razorbacks as the backbone though your goal is still to get into assault range and not so much just sit in bawkez


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/28 09:01:24


Post by: ZebioLizard2


There's also the fact that necron's won't also have the tank bonus, and of course the penetration = AV11, so of course it is a tradeoff for not being able to be glanced to death from stunned results.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/01/28 09:36:25


Post by: sudojoe


ZebioLizard2 wrote:There's also the fact that necron's won't also have the tank bonus, and of course the penetration = AV11, so of course it is a tradeoff for not being able to be glanced to death from stunned results.


but pen AV 13 is still pretty tough for most of the stuff on the board. It's already a net bonus for them since they won't have the open top extra +1. Also not exactly sure what's gonna happen for embarked shooting as opposed fire point vehicles since the book says assume the fire point is destroyed but how do you destroy something that wasn't there?


6th edition and GK @ 2012/03/01 03:24:57


Post by: Caidenlee


It's funny how nobody noted the simple fact. YES, grey knights don't benefit from 5+ invul save because they are not power weapons.
However, Please read mastercrafted rules, now all of my justicars do infact benefit from the invul save. 4+ Invul save Purifer Justicar? Yes Please.

Oh wait those Paladins who just got gakky? Can't they mastercrafted ALL of their weapons..... Though So.


Still marching on you Draigowing 6th ed get whooped.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/03/02 19:15:30


Post by: wuestenfux


Caidenlee wrote:It's funny how nobody noted the simple fact. YES, grey knights don't benefit from 5+ invul save because they are not power weapons.
However, Please read mastercrafted rules, now all of my justicars do infact benefit from the invul save. 4+ Invul save Purifer Justicar? Yes Please.

Oh wait those Paladins who just got gakky? Can't they mastercrafted ALL of their weapons..... Though So.


Still marching on you Draigowing 6th ed get whooped.

This is all speculation whether this rule becomes true. Too good to be true.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/03/02 20:06:02


Post by: Joe Mama


In 6h Edition GK are going to become the worst codex. Their storm bolters will have a 1 in 6 chance of exploding, causing a large AP 1 blast of exploding explosiveness. I know this because this was leaked online, on the INTERNET, somewhere.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/03/02 21:49:22


Post by: Draigo


Well damn back to being a crappy codex we go.. :( Oh well..


6th edition and GK @ 2012/03/04 16:36:02


Post by: TedNugent


wuestenfux wrote:Well, looking at GK only is not enough. Other armies well get buffs and nerfs too. For instance, Kan wall gets a nerf as cover save will be reduced to 5+.


I don't understand why they would do that when the 4+ cover save for vehicles was specifically clarified in a FAQ. First of all, that means it was a deliberate decision, second, if they wanted to nerf Kan wall they could just update the FAQ.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/03/05 21:53:28


Post by: ColdSadHungry


Caidenlee wrote:It's funny how nobody noted the simple fact. YES, grey knights don't benefit from 5+ invul save because they are not power weapons.
However, Please read mastercrafted rules, now all of my justicars do infact benefit from the invul save. 4+ Invul save Purifer Justicar? Yes Please.

Oh wait those Paladins who just got gakky? Can't they mastercrafted ALL of their weapons..... Though So.


Still marching on you Draigowing 6th ed get whooped.


OK, I'll join in the necro fun too! Also noticed this:

While a single master-crafted weapon is a piece of
wargear worthy of only the mightiest heroes of
mankind, it pales in comparison with a host of
matched blades that strike in perfect unity.
If several models in a unit use the same mastercrafted
weapons, roll all to hit dice together. You
can re-roll one failed roll to hit per master-crafted
weapon.

It seems to be suggesting, although it's badly worded, that you can just re-roll any failed to hit roll upto the number of master crafted weapons in the unit. If that is the case, then that is pretty amazing, too and with wound allocation gone, it could mean that a unit equipped with mostly swords for loads of 4+invuls in CC start popping up.


6th edition and GK @ 2012/03/20 18:59:17


Post by: Anglachel


Well, Fake or not, I'm really grateful to those who published this PDF...it's not because I'm against or I don't like 5th Edition, but only because we all need to change (excuse me for excess of philosophy ).
In fact this afternoon with a friend we've taken this "leaked-or-not" edition an played! We had some problems in going around the manual chasing different rules (for example, how do you apply Defensive Fire?), but in the end we enjoyed very much and found a lot of things interesting an stimulating!
Look, I don't want to begin complaining about "how weaker or stronger" a Codex will become (maybe because I've been playing WH40k for 25 year...so it's the same!) but in these rules there are some good ideas, in my opinion...
So, leak or not...GW! PLEASE! Take a look to this PDF and try to make a good 6th Edition!!!!


6th edition and GK @ 2012/04/13 00:59:41


Post by: FreakShow42


I'm a little worried about the wording for psychic powers and fortitude. It says that a stunned unit can't take any psychic actions and there's nothing specific about fortitude. So that leaves RAW saying that a stunned vehicle can't even test for fortitude to negate the stun, leaving fortitude only effective on shaken.