It seems like there's been a steady influx of recasters on eBay over the past year or so. Some are in Russia, others Hong Kong, and still more are in the USA. Anyone know why this has only recently started up like this? Or has it always been this bad and I just never noticed before?

Dunno why the influx, but they seem to be getting better. I picked up some from Russia (with love), knowing what they were, and they stack up pretty well with the legit versions.

It comes and goes.

I would suspect that if there is a surge right now, it would be prompted by people trying to cash in on peoples' reluctance to buy 'Fine'cast.

While we're on the subject, what do you guys look for when determining if a model is recast? I mean obviously if it's really bad, that's one thing, but when it looks pretty real, is there a warning sign or a givaway term or something?


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insaniak wrote:It comes and goes.

I would suspect that if there is a surge right now, it would be prompted by people trying to cash in on peoples' reluctance to buy 'Fine'cast.

Casting has also gotten much easier in just the last few years. The supplies required have dropped in price and started showing up in regular stores.

Usually the resin is the wrong color, or its just not quite as good as the real thing. Also a dead give away if they don't come with bases (real FW does, where applicable).

Rented Tritium wrote:While we're on the subject, what do you guys look for when determining if a model is recast? I mean obviously if it's really bad, that's one thing, but when it looks pretty real, is there a warning sign or a givaway term or something?

Excessive pitting or discolouration of the metal (caused by the metal being too hot when cast) is the most common giveaway, although it's not 100%. GW's own minis have from time to time suffered from minor pitting and occasional discolouration, so it's largely a case of learning what looks 'right'...

Double mould lines are a big giveaway that something has been recast. Better casters will obviously do a better job of either matching or removing the original mould lines before making their mould...

Missing plastic components can also be a clue, particularly where someone is selling large numbers of old minis without them... but this can also just be someone clearing out their old minis box, of course.

Sellers offering large numbers of identical primed minis should also be considered with care... The priming is used to conceal differences in moulding or material that might be more obvious if the model were sold bare.

Right now I'm big into 54mm+ modelling and painting. I don't know if you guys are aware of the prices of this stuff? but the miniatures that are being produced right now, from companys like Scale75, Pegaso, Andrea etc are so stunning....anyway.

Like I said the prices are pretty steep when compared to 28mm for obvious reasons I guess. Where I'm at right now, let's just say my painting skills are in the "development" stage! So when spending £50+ on a single figure, getting the final paint scheme "wrong" really leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

In comes ebay, and the mighty recaster!! I can get the same miniature that would cost me around £120 (Mounted knight type fella on a horse!) for £30!!!!

So I've taken the plunge and bought the recast, knowing full well what it was (at that price, it really couldn't be anything else).....but my aim is to use it as a paint slave, a medium to build my skills on. I fully intend to purchase the "original" from the company that produces it.....why? Because, as much as the recast will save me money while developing my skills, I will always know the miniature is a "cheap" copy, no matter how well it is made.

I know this is probably irrational, especially if the recaster uses industry standard materials and processes, but theres just something "special" about purchasing from the "right" sources, not to mention, I want the original product company to continue to produce more and more beautiful miniatures. I know that if people turn solely to recasters eventually, the well spring of creativity that enabled the recasters to ply their trade will dry up, and what then?

I think for any serious modeller or painter, you'd probably feel the same way I do, and despite the prices, will want to preserve their hobby by supporting the companys who produce original products, whether it be miniatures, statues, action figures.....what ever.

I guess in the end what I'm saying, is that recasters do have a place in our hobbies, but we have to use them WISELY, and pay our dues to the original product manufacturers in equal measure!!....we mustn't bite the hand that feeds us.

Isnt recasting illegal? Am i missing something? :s

I believe recasting is MASSIVELY illegal, although, the ones I bought are coming in from China! where recasting is probably not illegal.

How this sits with trading across boundaries I'm not entirely sure, to buy the goods in the UK from China is not technically like recieveing stolen goods per se, as the item itself has been legally sold by its owner, I would imagine it would only be a case of "illegal selling" if the I.P. rights to the item were contested and found in a court of law to be in infringement....until that happens, I believe the item can be traded across boundaries....

One problem with this is a sculpter in Russia, Zonk made a brilliant home made Chaos Dwarf Ass-Cannon inspired sculpt and then had to deal with people thinking it was a recast which it wasn't

I recently acquired some old Rackham models and a Gamesday model from a Chinese seller on Ebay. Although it's likely, being from China and all, that they're recasts, I honestly am not disappointed with my purchase at all. Almost no flash or mold lines (no double mold lines), all the details beautifully in tact. You wouldn't get higher quality by buying them off the shelf.

Delephont wrote:So I've taken the plunge and bought the recast, knowing full well what it was (at that price, it really couldn't be anything else).....but my aim is to use it as a paint slave, a medium to build my skills on. I fully intend to purchase the "original" from the company that produces it.....why? Because, as much as the recast will save me money while developing my skills, I will always know the miniature is a "cheap" copy, no matter how well it is made.

Seems like an awfully expensive way of doing a practice paint. A bottle of Simple Green or Super Clean is going to cost you substantially less than £30.

There are several ways to tell if they are re-casts.
If the models are being sold in Russia and especially China that is a clue.
As stated, no bases.
Selling a lot of rare and limited edition models.

I think the reason why they are becoming so popular is a couple of reasons.
GW prices are so high that there might be a backlash against them. Also GW is not loved and they are horrible at public relations so people do not feel bad taking money out of their pockets.
Also the margins are so huge that for pennies a Chinese person can make a model that is equal to a month’s wage.

insaniak wrote:

Delephont wrote:So I've taken the plunge and bought the recast, knowing full well what it was (at that price, it really couldn't be anything else).....but my aim is to use it as a paint slave, a medium to build my skills on. I fully intend to purchase the "original" from the company that produces it.....why? Because, as much as the recast will save me money while developing my skills, I will always know the miniature is a "cheap" copy, no matter how well it is made.

Seems like an awfully expensive way of doing a practice paint. A bottle of Simple Green or Super Clean is going to cost you substantially less than £30.

Oh totally.

When I say the paintjob is a "write off", I'm actually exaggerating what I should have said to make things clearer, is the paintjob isn't at the level where you're 100% happy with it, by this I mean you've pumped a lot of time and effort into the miniature and you've basically got some way to go before you're "one of the masters". This is certainly no reason to strip the model down and start again....I see painting as a skill that developes over time, my guess is most painters can look back over their last "few" miniatures and actually see how they've improved with each paintjob.

Having said all of that, can you imagine the cost of the process if you were to buy the same model again and again from the original product maker until you got the figure as close to 100% as you could

And that's where I think recasts can be useful. Once you're confident though, and can approach eat job knowing you'll do the figure justice, I see no further need to rely on recasters...from that point you'd go straight to the originals.

I could use some recast OOP stuff, namely the old raptors.

I like the idea, really. Too lazy to buy warhams on ebay though.

Delephont wrote:Having said all of that, can you imagine the cost of the process if you were to buy the same model again and again from the original product maker until you got the figure as close to 100% as you could

I would have gone insane long before that happened.

By the time I've finished the first copy of that model, there are half a dozen new models out there that I can practice on next. I'm not going to keep repainting the same thing until it's perfect... that will never happen. I just paint each mini to a standard I'm happy with, and move on.

By implementing FineCast, GW has opened the door wide for recasters. Now that character and other larger models will mostly be resin, recasters will have a field day recasting stuff in resin that used to be metal. The quality of a recast resin item will no longer matter because the quality of the FineCast stuff is so variable. It will be very hard to tell if a resin item is FineCast or a recast if the recaster colors his resin a light gray.

The thing is I think it's very difficult for Western companies to apply any kind of copyright or image rights over anything that is produced in China, or for most of Asia for that matter.

I think the record I have seen for most copyright infringements on a single item was 3 on a t-shirt in South Korea - A Lego Super Mario jumping out of a transforming Optimus Prime. I doubt very much that the 50 year old lady selling it had requested licensing from all 3 companies.

It's a sign of the times; Prices have never been higher, people have never had less money to spend, the miscast rate of 'official' products has never been so high. Even though I don't support it, I'm not surprised they are thriving.

Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

TBH, Recasting should be wrong, but GW's public relations and quality has got me to the point where I don't care, I'm getting cheaper better quality models from better people who aren't trying to **** my wallet

Blackmoor wrote:There are several ways to tell if they are re-casts.
If the models are being sold in Russia and especially China that is a clue.
As stated, no bases.
Selling a lot of rare and limited edition models.

I think the reason why they are becoming so popular is a couple of reasons.
GW prices are so high that there might be a backlash against them. Also GW is not loved and they are horrible at public relations so people do not feel bad taking money out of their pockets.
Also the margins are so huge that for pennies a Chinese person can make a model that is equal to a month’s wage.

As for Games Workshop.

You Reap What You Sow.

I've got a genius idea. Recast finecast models in METAL

You'd make tons, because everyone would think they were the old models. Even if I knew they were metal recasts, I doubt I'd care.

I wouldn't, I'd love a metal version of the new Krell or a Firebelly, or Golgfag

H.B.M.C. wrote:Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

Nah, it makes it easier for sales yeah, but for personal use the old metal minis are a lot easier to recast than the new finecast ones which tend to be weedier minis with more details/more room for error, etc. I can do older metal based sculpts myself without the use of a pressure pot or anything, if I wanted to try to simulate finecast quality (ideal quality and not what we actually get) I would need to invest in hundreds of dollars of extra gear.

insaniak wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:While we're on the subject, what do you guys look for when determining if a model is recast? I mean obviously if it's really bad, that's one thing, but when it looks pretty real, is there a warning sign or a givaway term or something?

Excessive pitting or discolouration of the metal (caused by the metal being too hot when cast) is the most common giveaway, although it's not 100%. GW's own minis have from time to time suffered from minor pitting and occasional discolouration, so it's largely a case of learning what looks 'right'...

Double mould lines are a big giveaway that something has been recast. Better casters will obviously do a better job of either matching or removing the original mould lines before making their mould...

Missing plastic components can also be a clue, particularly where someone is selling large numbers of old minis without them... but this can also just be someone clearing out their old minis box, of course.

Sellers offering large numbers of identical primed minis should also be considered with care... The priming is used to conceal differences in moulding or material that might be more obvious if the model were sold bare.

Yes, recasts can show these things, but all occur in the genuine article - even the double mould lines are, on rare occasion, seen in genuine figures. If all these issues are present though that is a strong sign of recasting.

I wouldn't place much on the fact that plastic parts, especially bases, being missing. Bases are often separated from a figure or broken if the model has been disassembled, very common at wargames shows in my experience.

The biggest give aways are people producing a lot of Limited Edition stuff, and people casting things in materials they were never cast in. Though a warning on this, a lot of models produced in lead were still available lead-free through their bitz service for many years, so even some very old figures are available in white metal. But the oppostie is not true, you won't get figures produced after the switch over being made in lead. The switch to Finecast will also cause confusion for some years I imagine, as there are not a lot of figures being produced in both materials.

I've no issue with buying recasts of OOP, my feeling is that GW refuse to make them available, and in some cases never gave people a reasonable opportunity to buy them in the first place rendering games difficult to play. Some 54mm Inquisitor figures were available for mere weeks or months before being deleted, it makes you wonder why they even bothered producing some of them. Some items are so obscure, that even dedicated groups like the Citadel Collectors Wiki appear to be unsure of detailing a full collection of stuff actually produced. These figures might only be 10 years old, but it seems very odd to reconcile this disorganised approach with the sort of company GW are today, but their approach to some things, especially the specialist games, has always been haphazard.

As for modern figures being recast, well I believe there are a few reasons people buy these. I'm not keen on buying recasted stuff that you can get in the shops just because I'm cheap. BUT - Firstly the obvious, people buy them because they are cheaper than the genuine article, often significantly cheaper because GW prices are so high. But this also happens because GW do not appear to engender much loyalty in customers, if you look at some manufacturers their customers will react badly to finding recasts. Partly because smaller businesses feel the losses more seriously and recasting could seriously damage them. But for example, even Hasslefree have had their stuff recast on eBay and that really takes away from every sale that they need, their customers were very supportive of them. GW's customers tend to be a bit more 'meh' about the issue of recasting. Lastly, it is possible that recasters offer better quality than GW. There are a lot of people who prefer metal, and it could be the case that regardless of casting material the recasters are supplying stuff more reliably than GW themselves, if true that IS embarrassing.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

Easier :3

Cheaper
Faster

Weight is a huge issue @_@

Howard A Treesong wrote:I wouldn't place much on the fact that plastic parts, especially bases, being missing. Bases are often separated from a figure or broken if the model has been disassembled, very common at wargames shows in my experience.

It's not a sign when it's a single figure... But as an example, a while back on eBay there was a seller offering huge numbers of 2nd edition and RT-era miniatures minus the plastic arms, backpacks and bases. Identical bundles of the same miniatures, over and over.

It's not a giveaway on it's own, but it's a very strong indication in cases like that.

If I was a model-making company, and I produced some really great models twenty years ago that are still getting acclaim after all those years, I would make it a point to sell those models for as long as people want them, even if that may be in an incredibly limited run. I think OOP models make armies unique, and I don't think that they should be limited to only die hard collectors...

GW doesn't seem to care about this much, although they have released certain OOP models lately (SW dread guy and legionaires of chaos, to name a couple) that make a lot of fans happy.

Although, I can see the collector's point of view. For example, I've collected YuGiOh cards since the first packs were released. I have hundreds of cards that are vintage and original, and it's a real slap in the face when they release clones of the cards that I worked so hard to get. Best example would be the god cards. I put together my set by putting myself through enormous bargaining efforts and bartering. I still have my original set, as well as the new ones, but I'm not crazy about the new ones because the old ones were such a hassle to get.

So, on the other hand, I could see that GW doesn't want to piss off their older fanbase who have been collecting for their entire lives.

This has nothing to do with the thread, but I wanted to post it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

%100 absolutely yes.

I got a bonesinger from italy and it had a little bit of pitting, but it was about the same amount as the dark reapers from the same era, so grain of salt.

But idk, it still seemed a little off somehow and I was wondering if there were any other things I could look at. Thanks for the info, guys.

I sculpt and cast my creations as well a the occasional recast of big companies IP for for personal projects.

My blog has info about casting metal and resin, including a price point breakdown / break even comparison on metal models. I believe I was able to price out equipment and suppiles for 59-60 figures at about $295 assuming that you were able to make a perfect mold on the first try.

Selling 30-60 of the same fig on eBay will get you noticed.
You would have to sell hard to find high value figures to be worth it vs selling figures that can be bought at around %20-%25 off new.


Long story short, casting metal figure is expensive. If these toys were a reasonable price to purchase there would be no profit available in recasting&selling the copies,.

Now recasting resin is far easier and most companies resin offerings already come standard with defects, cases in point FW and Finecast.

I have no problem buying recasts of OOP products, or of horribly over-costed products. I purchased my first Barbed Heirodule from FW currently about $175 delivered it was from a mold that should have been and parts of the casting had bad mold slip/mis-alignment. When you factor the high cost, low quality, long wait times, and general disregard that GW & FW show for their customers it made my decision to buy my 2nd barbed H from a popular Chinese recaster for $68. It was delivered faster & the cast was near perfect.

When a recaster can put out a better quality product at less than %40 of the originals cost and treat me better as a customer it becomes hard not to consider them for future purchases.

If FW were to reduce the final cost of their products I would not consider a purchase from a recaster, If FW had not farmed out the labor to china to reduce their cost of production/increase profit margins then the recaster would not have been trained so well and not have had acess to master copies to be recasting from now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

From my point of view as the former owner of Armorcast, it does, but I have not ever cast white metal but am familiar with the process. I've cast gold, silver and bronze using the lost wax tecnique professionally though.
I'm assuming you need a spin caster to do more than limited numbers of minis.

All you need for resin is mold rubber, mold frames, mold release, resin and some experience. Molds are easier to make than molds for spin casters. You get better results for complicated designs (like 28mm human figs) with a vacuum chamber or pressure pot.

One of GWs's problems as they still seem to be using spin casters for the resin. I'm sure I could get better quality castings with less rejects like the ones we are seeing posted with my vacuum chamber, but I certainly could not do it in the volume that GW needs to match the demand.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I've got a genius idea. Recast finecast models in METAL

You'd make tons, because everyone would think they were the old models. Even if I knew they were metal recasts, I doubt I'd care.

Sure, but you are going to have to deal with the same higher metal prices that GW is.

Tim

timd wrote:

One of GWs's problems as they still seem to be using spin casters for the resin. I'm sure I could get better quality castings with less rejects like the ones we are seeing posted with my vacuum chamber, but I certainly could not do it in the volume that GW needs to match the demand.

Tim

If GW would just go to a slightly longer cure resin I suspect we would see better spin castings from them.

Sadly after talking to others that I would say are "in the know" FW make molds under vacuum but they don't degas the resin nor do they cast under pressure, which is why a lot of us garage casters are able to get better results.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Does GW switching from metal to resin really make it easier for recasters?

I'm not arguing against that idea, I'm actually interested in knowing.

It makes it a million times easier. Before the transition you had to recast in metal to make a suitable copy. There's much more to pouring metal than there is to pouring resin. There is a lot more people who can recast resin than there is metal recasters. Resin casting uses no heat, while metal casting uses high temps and is a more dangerous undertaking for a small time operator working out of a spare bedroom.

As far as the OP goes. Yes there is a large number of recasters turning up now that resin casting has become so popular. I imagine that we will really start seeing a crackdown coming. Especially on US sellers on ebay. Saying you didnt know something was counterfeit doesnt make it legal. Personally I'm surprised ebay allows recasters to remain in business. They are super strict if you want to sell a bunch of Coach purses, certain cosmetics, sunglasses etc.

I can see that making things out of resin is easier than metal (for all the reasons you've described), but that wasn't what I was asking.

The comment I quoted was saying that GW switching to resin made recasting easy, and I wanted to know why the change from metal to resin would make any difference in how easy it would be to recast, not how easy it is to make resin models vs metal ones.

The difference is in the material used to get a suitable recast.

I haven't looked at everything being recast on eBay but it seems that the asian recasters are currently targeting Forge World stuff more than they are Finecast. A co-worker got a Contemptor from one of the Russians and it was utterly flawless. The only way you could tell it was a recast was by the color. Several years back, I wound up with some recast Epic bits from a recaster in the USA and they were clearly inferior to what GW was doing.

I suspect that recasters are going to ruin it for everyone selling on ebay. I suspect to see crackdowns soon.

Lots of people are buying from the russians on ebay , especially the primarchs and body guards.

Then we have people posting direct links to counterfeiter's webstores.

It spreads like wild fire really, who wouldn't want fakes that are actually superior to the original while being cheaper?

I have reported it multiple times, mods just locks it. It would be more effective if they edited out the links -_- ........

The "Primarchs" aren't recasts though. They may violate ip (not a statement, hazy area) but they are original sculpts. There is a good deal of counterfit FW coming from there as well, there's just a difference between the 2.

I dont think the originals were made by Russians.
I dont think the originals were being sold multiple times by a seller that sells tons of FW counterfeits and admits to being none FW ( admire Russian for their bravery )

Actually a lot of the originals did start in Russia. Not the Kabukis but some of the other Primarchs. Originally they were cast in white metal. You should be able to go onto CMON and follow the origins of most primarch sculpts on the market.

Well, I guess this is it then. The whole building starts to topple, and GW will keep bunkering in, while raising the prices in defense against the rising recasters.
I think I'll order a piece, out of curiosity.

Do you know if they recast metals too? I bought recently two Space Marines characters from around 1993 fairly cheap, and now I've got them in my hands I'm not sure if they are real or copies. The seller had a very small stock of them, like 2 or 3 copies. More than a simple collector like me, but much less than a recaster. They were based in the UK.

SM characters from that time period are not worth the effort to copy. There's millions of them out there. Unless they're limited edition I highly doubt recasts.

Korraz wrote:Well, I guess this is it then. The whole building starts to topple, and GW will keep bunkering in, while raising the prices in defense against the rising recasters.
I think I'll order a piece, out of curiosity.

And that's one way that recasters hurt legitimate business.

I bought a bunch of metal Marine shoulderpads once, and after paying I saw they were from China. I'm pretty positive they're recasts but I already spent my money so I'm not going to go melt them down for the sake of it or whatever. Since then I've made a point to check the feedback, other auctions, and location of anything I'm buying that seems suspect.

Somehow I don't believe that price rises are a sound strategic response to recasting? If GW did this, they would simply push their customers into the hands of the recasters.

It's actually quite funny, with the secondary market that has sprung up in "support" of WH40K and the combined efforts of the recasters that are out there, I wonder if WH40K as a game could actually survive without further input from GW.....at this stage, I would actually hazard to think that it could.

If any company out there needs to fear the recaster (as it were) I think GW sit in the number 1 slot!

Delephont wrote:Somehow I don't believe that price rises are a sound strategic response to recasting? If GW did this, they would simply push their customers into the hands of the recasters.

Sounds familiar to me.

GW will still do great as they move more toward plastics. Nobody seems to be interested in recasts of plastic bits. It's Forge World and Scibor that I'm worried about.

Breotan wrote:GW will still do great as they move more toward plastics. Nobody seems to be interested in recasts of plastic bits. It's Forge World and Scibor that I'm worried about.

Good point!

I wonder if this guy is legit? He has 10 Contemptor dreads for sale, they have no bases, and he is from Russia.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Forgeworld-Warhammer-40k-CONTEMPTOR-PATTERN-DREADNOUGHT-BODY-/280807041068?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item416167682c

I think you answered your question on your own lol

He is a legit seller, check out the feedback.
You will most likely get exactly what you see when you win the bid.
It will most likely be a recast of a FW original, and I bet that it will be a better quality than most that FW sells.

Recasters like this seller usually make sure they don't piss off buyers so they can keep selling.

The recasters to avoid are the ones on trade boards like here and Bartertown, when you don't have to have top notch recasts because their are less repercussions for dishonest sellers.

The Russians I have dealt with have been great. look at feedback and remember that around %15 to %20 of ebay buyers dont leave feedback when things go right, all leave FB when things go wrong.

LunaHound wrote:I dont think the originals were made by Russians.
I dont think the originals were being sold multiple times by a seller that sells tons of FW counterfeits and admits to being none FW ( admire Russian for their bravery )

Not sure if we are talking about the same person, but the Russian I know once sold his own sculpts of Primarchs and Custodes. He also made the Tervigon I own. And he claims to sell original FW stuff.

I once bought Tyranid towers from China when they were long discontinued by FW. So being flawless casts, I don't care if they are recasts or not.

Delephont wrote:I believe recasting is MASSIVELY illegal, although, the ones I bought are coming in from China! where recasting is probably not illegal.

How this sits with trading across boundaries I'm not entirely sure, to buy the goods in the UK from China is not technically like recieveing stolen goods per se, as the item itself has been legally sold by its owner, I would imagine it would only be a case of "illegal selling" if the I.P. rights to the item were contested and found in a court of law to be in infringement....until that happens, I believe the item can be traded across boundaries....

It's a bit more complex than that.

Piracy is illegal in China but the laws are not well enforced. If fact sometimes the local government which is supposed to be enforcing the law owns the firms that are pirating.

Kroothawk wrote:

LunaHound wrote:I dont think the originals were made by Russians.
I dont think the originals were being sold multiple times by a seller that sells tons of FW counterfeits and admits to being none FW ( admire Russian for their bravery )

Not sure if we are talking about the same person, but the Russian I know once sold his own sculpts of Primarchs and Custodes. He also made the Tervigon I own. And he claims to sell original FW stuff.

I once bought Tyranid towers from China when they were long discontinued by FW. So being flawless casts, I don't care if they are recasts or not.

Yup. A lot of the Primarchs did originate in Russia. I had a few of them, and bought them a few years ago when they first popped up.

inquisitorlewis wrote:SM characters from that time period are not worth the effort to copy. There's millions of them out there. Unless they're limited edition I highly doubt recasts.

Thanks! I guess you're right.

Meh, the Chinese place is way cheaper than the Russian guy.

Samus_aran115 wrote:So, on the other hand, I could see that GW doesn't want to piss off their older fanbase who have been collecting for their entire lives.

I Really doubt that's the reason but it's a nice thought, all the same.

I have to admit I'm most tempted by the recast Rackham models at about 15% the price of Legacy Miniatures models and as their OOP and the companies gone belly up it'll be the only way I can get some models. For GW models I have to go meh I'm not particularly in the market for them. It's more Heresy, Hasslefree and the other little ones I worry about.

lord_blackfang wrote:Meh, the Chinese place is way cheaper than the Russian guy.

Yeah but they don't have the contemptor....

I think that once a company goes bust and its IP isn't being protected any more then morally that is a grey area for me. Wouldn't purchase it myself - those chinese recaster tossers reported me for refusing to complete an eBay transaction when I realized it was a recast.

If the company exists and is selling models then it is a pure black and white issue. There is zero, none, nada, bugger all justification for knowingly buying a recast. There is no argument that is valid. Cannot afford it - tough. The argument that it is GW's fault for high pricing is the crappiest argument of all.

fullheadofhair wrote:I think that once a company goes bust and its IP isn't being protected any more then morally that is a grey area for me. Wouldn't purchase it myself - those chinese recaster tossers reported me for refusing to complete an eBay transaction when I realized it was a recast.

You had a legal obligation to complete the transaction, If you FELT it was fake you should have either completed the transaction and alerted the appropriate authorities so that it could have been taken care or according to the law, or you should have got eBay involved. Either of those 2 options would have protected you from " those chinese recaster tossers"

fullheadofhair wrote:If the company exists and is selling models then it is a pure black and white issue. There is zero, none, nada, bugger all justification for knowingly buying a recast. There is no argument that is valid. Cannot afford it - tough. The argument that it is GW's fault for high pricing is the crappiest argument of all.

The above is your opinion, you are entitled to it and I respect you for it. However there are 2 things to look at?

First being the legality of the issue. In most first world countries recasting and reselling is illegal.

Second is morality of the issue. Different people will have different view on right and wrong, that is why we make laws that are generally acceptable to the majority of the public. Many people feel fine buying a recast, and that alone does not make them either good or bad.

For what its worth, I personally have reported recasters on eBay, ones that were recasting Hive Tyrant arms and ones recasting parts from a small hobby company that is on these boards. I reported them because they were located here in the States and were listing bad quality recasts as original product. On the other side of that I have purchased items that I strongly felt recasts when making the bid.

theunicorn wrote:

You had a legal obligation to complete the transaction,

Actually, you are 100% wrong. There is no obligation to fulfill an illegal contract - it is part of contract law.

theunicorn wrote:Many people feel fine buying a recast, and that alone does not make them either good or bad..

People who purchase copies of products at a cheaper price than the original aren't exactly 100% on the right side of legal behavior. I wouldn't necessary use the term "bad" but I would definitely use the term "unethical". To knowing do something wrong is rarely often "good".

fullheadofhair wrote:

theunicorn wrote:

You had a legal obligation to complete the transaction,

Actually, you are 100% wrong. There is no obligation to fulfill an illegal contract - it is part of contract law.

What proof did you have that it was an illegal contract? Strong circumstantial evidence, yeah probably, but proof?

You agreed to eBay's Terms and Conditions.
"A bid or commitment to buy on eBay is considered a contract and you're obligated to purchase the item. However, if you feel that you have a legitimate reason for not buying the item, you can contact the seller and explain your situation. " (direct quote from ebay)


eBay would have taken your side if you had contacted them(eBay), and they ruled that the item was a fake. Unfortunately either You did not involve them, or they decided the item was unable to be verified as fake..

Had you purchased the item you could have involved GW & FW to help them find the nefarious recasters. I have heard through a couple of different channels that they usually replace the faked items with real product while tracking down the recasters. This would have been the right MORAL and ETHICAL option. If eBay had sided with the seller when disputing the bid to buy this would have given GW the proof they need to be able to go to eBay and force them to close the acct of the reseller.


I know this may sound sorta douchey, but understand I actually agree with you in principal, that you should not have to purchase an Item that is fake. I feel that when you enter into a contract you should have to abide by the terms. So take the time to follow the steps and protect yourself and others.

lord_blackfang wrote:Meh, the Chinese place is way cheaper than the Russian guy.

I hope a price war will break out between the Russians and the Chinese!

Blackmoor wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Meh, the Chinese place is way cheaper than the Russian guy.

I hope a price war will break out between the Russians and the Chinese!

LoL. Me too though I'm an evil purchaser of nefarious goods and of questionable character.

That and I lived in Asia so long I think IP law is a crock.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I can see that making things out of resin is easier than metal (for all the reasons you've described), but that wasn't what I was asking.

The comment I quoted was saying that GW switching to resin made recasting easy, and I wanted to know why the change from metal to resin would make any difference in how easy it would be to recast, not how easy it is to make resin models vs metal ones.

Resin is easier to cast, so recasting is easier. That GW now makes pieces in resin makes it easier to pass off recast resin pieces as original GW product. When those pieces were available only in metal, you needed to be able to cast in metal (harder and more expensive in hardware and materials to do) to pass it off as original. All of the models that were metal and are now Finecast have become potential recopy products for resin, so basically GW's whole line of minis (less the plastic kits) is now available for recasting and passing off as GW originals.

If the recaster is a competent caster he can produce copies as good or better than GW's Fincast product. The recaster giveaways will be the color and rigidity of the resin, and the sprue points.

tim

Not to mention easier to ship for the recast sellers.
Easier to keep price down nice and attractive if they can shiip 3x amount for same weight.

One thing got more difficult on the recasters. They will have to do far more prep work on to get the finecast piece up to a a presentable level. Meaning filling the holes and bubbles so that they can make a good master/mold. Upside is that buyers won't know if the air bubble in the detail is because GW cant roto cast resin worth a damn or because a recaster rushed the job.

Shall we begin linking potential recasters in this thread for those with no experience?

Problem with that is it draws attention to them, some see it as advertising for illegal and ethically questionable businesses.

I am not aware of any bad quality recasters currently, though they can pop up at any time.

I know of a few great quality recasters that I wont mention.

I bet Tim can shed some light on ebay recasters dealing with his old product line. I have seen a few Chaos war engines that were not the standard Armorcast resin, but I am not sure if there are any recent/current recasters out there selling Armorcast.

theunicorn wrote:One thing got more difficult on the recasters. They will have to do far more prep work on to get the finecast piece up to a a presentable level.

This is only a problem where a model is ONLY available in Finecast. If there are metal versions of a mini, they would be the obvious source of masters...

I have no idea how many figs have only been released in Finecast. Obvioulsy stuff from the new Necron codex is only available in resin. What else?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

theunicorn wrote:
I bet Tim can shed some light on ebay recasters dealing with his old product line. I have seen a few Chaos war engines that were not the standard Armorcast resin, but I am not sure if there are any recent/current recasters out there selling Armorcast.

Someone asked a similar question recently, and this was my answer:

Its easy for me to tell original Armorcast pieces if I am holding them in my hands, but I don't think the skill is easily translatable/transferable.
I can usually (but not always) tell from decent photos IF the pieces are unpainted. If everything is primed black its pretty tough to tell from photos.

Just took a look through the Dakka Swap Shop (searched "Armorcast") and everything I saw at looked legit. I think the problem is bigger on ebay than Dakka, although I have not seen much bad stuff on ebay recently.

Tim


Automatically Appended Next Post:

theunicorn wrote:
If GW would just go to a slightly longer cure resin I suspect we would see better spin castings from them.

The problem seems to be bubbles everywhere on the model (on badly cast examples). Seems to me that its a lot easier to predict where the air will be trapped when you are dealing with one dimension of movement of the resin when casting. When gravity pouring rubber molds, you know that the resin is going down (gravity) and the air traps will the at the top of the piece as it sits in the mold. This predictability makes it relatively easy to vent potential air traps to let the air out. Also the resin can move both up and down when pouring the mold. Resin goes down the fill sprue, but fills upwards in blind vented areas, pushing the air out of the top of the mold.

(IMO) With the spincaster gravity is less of an issue (but may still be a factor), but the resin has a hard time reversing back towards the fill point because of the larger forces generated by the spincaster. Centrifugal force may well also come into play, especially with the very lightweight resin (compared to the weight of metal).

Tim

lord marcus wrote:Shall we begin linking potential recasters in this thread for those with no experience?

Probably not, for every 1 person that benefited from the link, is 100 others hungering to purchase counterfeits.

lord marcus wrote:Shall we begin linking potential recasters in this thread for those with no experience?

Bad idea for the following reasons:

1) Unless you have concrete proof the person is a recaster, there could be issues.

2) To be honest, if I know of a decent "recaster" who is getting me my stuff cheap, I don't want to blow their name all over this site so some white knight can come charging in to try to shut them down....people do all sorts of things in their spare time.

3) I believe this website has rules against the "support" of recasting, not to mention, various companies who (in their own way) support Dakkadakka don't want to see the same website directly / indirectly advertising where customers can get cheap fakes!!

Which is a shame because I'd happily buy 'recasts' of good quality but am unable to find any

Listing suspected recasters would only serve as advertising for them and I don't think that would be a good thing. If people are willing to go that route, they can do a little research on their own.

Murdock129 wrote:Which is a shame because I'd happily buy 'recasts' of good quality but am unable to find any

A couple of people in this thread have said that they know good quality recasters, try and PM them and see if they tell you who they are.

Personally I will never buy a recast miniatures (again), if I can help it because: a) I stopped buying GW miniatures, b) I want to continue to support the companies from which I buy my miniatures and I find that their miniatures are more than reasonably priced.

Well, here is probably the only good thing about this whole fiasco with the recaters.It may force GW to finally give us a price break. Because in the end it will hurt their bussiness but then again it is GW...

col. krazy kenny wrote:Well, here is probably the only good thing about this whole fiasco with the recaters.It may force GW to finally give us a price break. Because in the end it will hurt their bussiness but then again it is GW...

Naw, the amount of and variety of recasts is limited; GW's not going to be hurt, in fact my stock value increased again today by a healthy amount.

col. krazy kenny wrote:Well, here is probably the only good thing about this whole fiasco with the recaters.It may force GW to finally give us a price break. Because in the end it will hurt their bussiness but then again it is GW...

Of course GW will not cut prices because of this. They've lost over half their customer base in the last 10 years and they have done nothing but raise prices (and army sizes) steadilly as a response.

All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

lord marcus wrote:Shall we begin linking potential recasters in this thread for those with no experience?

No.

Thanks.

reds8n wrote:

lord marcus wrote:Shall we begin linking potential recasters in this thread for those with no experience?

No.

Thanks.

I really don't think a lot of Dakka understands the repercussions of threads supporting recasters. The way SOPA currently reads, GW and other companies could blacklist Dakka for threads like this. All of a sudden users in the USA no longer get to Dakka. This bill has lost a lot of steam, but it still helps to be prepared.

For those of you outside the USA who don't care about our laws, let me ask you this. What happens if USA is no longer allowed to view Dakka? It doesn't affect you one bit? What happens when Dakka advertisers decide they don't want to pay so much because of less viewers?

The real skinny of it is, supporting recasters on Dakka hurts Dakka.

Edit. It appears SOPA is actually finally dead. There is still PIPA to be concerned with though.

inquisitorlewis wrote:All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

Nobody is stealing anything from anyone.
If I'd walk into the casting facility, snatch a Contemptor and run like hell, that would be stealing.
Ordering recasts is not. It's ordering recasts. Which may or may not be illegal (the ordering), depending on where you live. Here? It's not. So it's neither stealing, nor illegal. Morally ambiguous? Maybe. But that's not keeping me awake at night.

Korraz wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

Nobody is stealing anything from anyone.
If I'd walk into the casting facility, snatch a Contemptor and run like hell, that would be stealing.
Ordering recasts is not. It's ordering recasts. Which may or may not be illegal (the ordering), depending on where you live. Here? It's not. So it's neither stealing, nor illegal. Morally ambiguous? Maybe. But that's not keeping me awake at night.

Not stealing from anyone? Let's get some of the smaller companies that frequent Dakka to chime in. If somebody makes an illegal copy of your work do you feel like something was stolen from you?

Obviously it's not keeping many users up at night.

Korraz wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

Nobody is stealing anything from anyone.
If I'd walk into the casting facility, snatch a Contemptor and run like hell, that would be stealing.
Ordering recasts is not. It's ordering recasts. Which may or may not be illegal (the ordering), depending on where you live. Here? It's not. So it's neither stealing, nor illegal. Morally ambiguous? Maybe. But that's not keeping me awake at night.

Hi, I run a company that makes miniatures and miniatures accessories. I depend on the sales of those items to be able to feed and house my family. If you buy recasts then you aren't supporting our business and in turn prevent me from feeding and housing my family.

If you buy a recast you may not be a thief in the traditional sense, but your still an donkey-cave.

inquisitorlewis wrote:All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

When GW gets its together with finecast, then I won't look for recasts of finecast material from recasters. Until then, I'm tired of every other finecast necron I purchase being a mess.

helium42 wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

When GW gets its together with finecast, then I won't look for recasts of finecast material from recasters. Until then, I'm tired of every other finecast necron I purchase being a mess.

Please don't get me wrong. My stance is not as a GW fanboy who thinks GW is awesome no matter what they do. It's actually more towards the exact opposite. My stance is from the aspect of everyone. All the big guys, all the small guys.

Where does the line get drawn. I suspect that most people who buy recasts arent doing it to sock it to GW. Theyre doing it because they won't pay retail for anything. If they could buy recasts of other companies products they would be right on that bandwagon as well.

Only once have i bought a recast, and it was by accident, i didn't actually realise they were until I started painting them and the armour joins behind the knees (they were marines) were 'smudged' and other parts weren't as clean as i'd expected, as well as brittle resin, i was actually really dissapointed, I could have painted them and you probably wouldn't have known the difference yet i felt ripped off that i'd be duped and now i'm very dubious about buying any models that are resin from a second hand source.
Personally I'd prefer the real stuff and I'll admit some of the re casts are hard to tell and with prices hovering between 'may be legit' and 'woo hoo bargain' you can buy them without realising it if you're not careful, now i always ask how long they've had them and if they have the bases included, also if it's on ebay a dead give away is when you see they've got '5 available' or multiple resin models....

Korraz wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

Nobody is stealing anything from anyone.
If I'd walk into the casting facility, snatch a Contemptor and run like hell, that would be stealing.
Ordering recasts is not. It's ordering recasts. Which may or may not be illegal (the ordering), depending on where you live. Here? It's not. So it's neither stealing, nor illegal. Morally ambiguous? Maybe. But that's not keeping me awake at night.

"Stealing other peoples' creative works" - yes recasting is stealing. A recaster doesn't own the rights to produce it.

"Morally ambiguous" - where is the ambiguity to it?

http://www.wipo.int/wipo_magazine/en/2008/05/article_0008.html

This is a good article for the few people who are actually interested in this thread, it deals with all three sides of this issue, The IP owner, The counterfeiter, and The customer.

Its a good read for the folks that take an inflexible standpoint on the morality of something. Its breaks down consumers into 4 buying groups and how best to deal with them.

Like I said, interesting quick read.

Because we all need to have an American/Western European set of morality and/or world view. Yeah, no thanks. But I guess we better or we'll be invaded at some point by the self-righteous who feel everyone needs to have their viewpoint.

What some people may find immoral based upon their culture does not actually match what the majority of the world thinks.

inquisitorlewis wrote:I suspect that recasters are going to ruin it for everyone selling on ebay. I suspect to see crackdowns soon.

Honestly, you have to report the recaster everytime you see something that is a possible recast for Ebay and/or Paypal to take action. I have been on a recaster's (Antony Heath a.k.a. Tony Heath, lizheath2010[ebay screen name])butt for almost a full year since he tried to scam me out of from original armorcast ork vehicles. Over that time he has been forced to sell other things and original minis on ebay only because of the hundred or so man hours I have spent keeping him on his toes. Ebay and/or Paypal will not look closely unless there is multiple reports.

The best way to keep recasters from selling is to shine the light on them by posting a warning of them to the public (the name and ebay, dakkaswap, etc listing of the item) and reporting them everytime. They will switch screen names often so it takes some net fu to keep up with them but they almost never change how their listings are written or their pictures.

Hope this helps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

theunicorn wrote:Problem with that is it draws attention to them, some see it as advertising for illegal and ethically questionable businesses.

I am not aware of any bad quality recasters currently, though they can pop up at any time.

I know of a few great quality recasters that I wont mention.

I bet Tim can shed some light on ebay recasters dealing with his old product line. I have seen a few Chaos war engines that were not the standard Armorcast resin, but I am not sure if there are any recent/current recasters out there selling Armorcast.

Antony Heath a.k.a. Tony Heath

He is based out of the UK and he was recasting everything till the Dakka Transaction report stopped him butt cold. I was on him like white on rice in a snow storm getting shut out of everything.

The TR is still open on here with all the evidence that he is a scammer and recaster. Just google Tony Heath or Antony Heath and Recaster. It will pop up alot on this guy.

I actually see the crackdowns coming from GW in ways of C&D orders. It would be even worse if a bill like SOPA or PIPA comes to pass. GW could have the possibility to blacklist ebay (something I'm sure they would love to do)

agnosto wrote:Because we all need to have an American/Western European set of morality and/or world view. Yeah, no thanks. But I guess we better or we'll be invaded at some point by the self-righteous who feel everyone needs to have their viewpoint.

What some people may find immoral based upon their culture does not actually match what the majority of the world thinks.

I guess I will start following all your threads then. Keep my eye out for some really cool conversions. Then I will copy them and pass them off as my own. No issues with that I assume?

inquisitorlewis wrote:

agnosto wrote:Because we all need to have an American/Western European set of morality and/or world view. Yeah, no thanks. But I guess we better or we'll be invaded at some point by the self-righteous who feel everyone needs to have their viewpoint.

What some people may find immoral based upon their culture does not actually match what the majority of the world thinks.

I guess I will start following all your threads then. Keep my eye out for some really cool conversions. Then I will copy them and pass them off as my own. No issues with that I assume?

Wouldn't bother me, I never discuss anything substantive on the internet anyway; prepare to be bored.

agnosto wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:

agnosto wrote:Because we all need to have an American/Western European set of morality and/or world view. Yeah, no thanks. But I guess we better or we'll be invaded at some point by the self-righteous who feel everyone needs to have their viewpoint.

What some people may find immoral based upon their culture does not actually match what the majority of the world thinks.

I guess I will start following all your threads then. Keep my eye out for some really cool conversions. Then I will copy them and pass them off as my own. No issues with that I assume?

Wouldn't bother me, I never discuss anything substantive on the internet anyway; prepare to be bored.

More of making a point then actually caring about stalking you. None the less I am sure it would still bother you, or anyone else for that matter.

inquisitorlewis wrote:
More of making a point then actually caring about stalking you. None the less I am sure it would still bother you, or anyone else for that matter.

I understand the point you are trying to make; however, I have lived for extended periods of time in areas of the world where the prevailing attitude on the subject is one of indifference if not outright ridicule.

Look at it this way. Laws in the U.S. are written with the majority in mind; especially in Tort law where you are always asked what a "Reasonable and Prudent" person would do in any given situation. Just because laws are a certain way in the U.S. does not make them universally applicable to even a small percentage of the world. If international law was written with the majority in mind (worldwide) I can almost guarantee you that IP law would be low, very low indeed on the list of priorities.

Western morality does not equal worldwide morality; this is where morality laws fail when forced upon the world at large as such concepts are not universal.

inquisitorlewis wrote:All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

this is a little misguided, stealing would be if (as someone has already pointed out) i ran into the factory and ran off with one of the models.

recasting leaves the original product behind, and thus cannot be considered stealing. yes it may be in the moral grey, and is probably in the darker section of the grey, but to be perfectly honest i am not bothered in the slightest. the models i would buy as recasts are models that are far out of my price-point; or things i have no need of for my current projects, but want to paint anyway for the fun of it, or to sell to my friends. i would of course be up front about the origin of the model in question, but pretty much all of my friends would share my view of "we can now get this thing that was too expensive for us, for a much more affordable price.

Cyporiean wrote:

Korraz wrote:

inquisitorlewis wrote:All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

Nobody is stealing anything from anyone.
If I'd walk into the casting facility, snatch a Contemptor and run like hell, that would be stealing.
Ordering recasts is not. It's ordering recasts. Which may or may not be illegal (the ordering), depending on where you live. Here? It's not. So it's neither stealing, nor illegal. Morally ambiguous? Maybe. But that's not keeping me awake at night.

Hi, I run a company that makes miniatures and miniatures accessories. I depend on the sales of those items to be able to feed and house my family. If you buy recasts then you aren't supporting our business and in turn prevent me from feeding and housing my family.

If you buy a recast you may not be a thief in the traditional sense, but your still an donkey-cave.

I'll just answer this one, instead quoting three posts.
If I'd have never bought from you in the first place, it's not stealing. You wouldn't have gotten my cash anyway. So, if you run a company and want to feed your family, produce decent quality and have prices that make sense.
I'm ready to pay decent cash for decent quality.
I'm ready to pay premium cash for premium quality.
I'm not ready to pay premium cash for crap quality.

Swinging the lawyer mallet isn't the only way to compat Those Jewkilling Slavemongering Babypunching Chinese Pirates. I could have any Pen and Paper book anytime I want.And yet, I can see the whole New World of Darkness line of Mainbooks, several oWoD ones, and countless other systems on my shelf. If I'm interested, I download them. I look through them, and if I like them, I go to the store or order a copy. If not, I'll copy the bloodline or the Rotes I need, print them, and be done with it.

Korraz wrote:
If I'd have never bought from you in the first place, it's not stealing.

If your not going to buy anyway, then there is no reason to own a recast.

inquisitorlewis wrote:All you people lining up to buy recasts are a perfect example of why the US government finds SOPA so necessary.

Bottom line, recasting is ILLEGAL. I question the morals of everyone who is chomping at the bit to rush out and buy recasts. This is a hobby. If you can't afford it then find something else to do with your spare time. Stop STEALING other peoples creative works. There is absolutely no justifiable reason for buying recasts other than you have no issues with stealing.

No, the US goernment finds SOPA nessercary because their being paid for it by the big corporations and companies such as Hollywood so those companies can gain a monopoly on their products allowing them to charge what they like for it without reprecussions. Which the politicians like because then they'll get paid more by said coroporations. The SOPA act has little to do with piracy and more to do with making dirty money, doing what the corporations want and not to mention giving the government more power of censorship and control oer the USA

Sorry, I've gone off topic haven't I?

More on topic, if it is stealing, so be it, I love this hobby, but if GW are going to make it so expensive I have to quit otherwise I'll happily buy the same model as GW's but at a lower price with higher quality. I still don't believe it is stealing though.

Going back to the SOPA thing, it's kinda like that, Hollywood believes if people are unable to pirate movies all of a sudden they'll pay all that money to get the movies legally, no, peaople pirate movies because it's free, and people buy recasts because their cheap. I'd never even look at buying a Thunderhawk gunship from FW because of price alone, but if I found one recasted for a decent price, sure I'd buy that, GW aren't losing any monyey from me cos they never would have gotten any in the first place. I'll freely admit, morally it's probably not the right thing to do, but I'll also add, I don't really care in this situation

I should add this is hypthetical for me, to my knowledge I do not own any recasts, but if I have unknowingly bought a high quality recast I'm not going to demand a refund or throw it out or anything

I love the way people find a million reasons to justify doing something they know is wrong. Whatever you need to do to justify it...lol.

I am deadset against SOPA and PIPA, but am now starting to see why it is necessary. Simply because people can't regulate themselves the government has to go and get involved.

I think it's hilarious that so many people are lining up to buy pirated goods, yet sell one of them a knock off Ipod or similar device and they will be crying foul. Where does the line get drawn? Some pirated goods are OK, but others are unacceptable.

InquisitorLewis, you need to take a deep breath and stop posting. You are a ball of angry in here today. Chill out. I even agree with you and I want you to stop.

No anger whatsoever. Just surprised how many people are willing to do harm to companies just to save a few bucks.

Well you're coming across like a raving lunatic. This thread isn't even about SOPA.

I still don't believe it is stealing though.

How can people be this dim? Seriously. Recasting and selling them is very much illegal. Its like torrenting movies and selling them. Just because Russia/China/etc is full to the brim with donkey-cave thieves/bottom feeders doesn't make this right.

When you sell a recast there is no 'moral ambiguity' excuse. You are profiting from an item you are not permitted to profit from as it is not your IP.

It actually has a lot to do with SOPA and why many think it is necessary. The 2 parallel each other very closely. This is exactly the kind of thread that could end up having Dakka blacklisted.

Cyporiean wrote:

Korraz wrote:
If I'd have never bought from you in the first place, it's not stealing.

If your not going to buy anyway, then there is no reason to own a recast.

Says who? The law? Apparently not. Well, then I don't care.

inquisitorlewis wrote:I love the way people find a million reasons to justify doing something they know is wrong. Whatever you need to do to justify it...lol.

I am deadset against SOPA and PIPA, but am now starting to see why it is necessary. Simply because people can't regulate themselves the government has to go and get involved.

I think it's hilarious that so many people are lining up to buy pirated goods, yet sell one of them a knock off Ipod or similar device and they will be crying foul. Where does the line get drawn? Some pirated goods are OK, but others are unacceptable.

Oh, I'm not trying to justy anything. I gave my reasons, and I'm just making the point that pirating isn't stealing. I know very well that recasting is illegal. I just don't care. I don't recast, and I don't sell recasts.

Mr Hyena wrote:

I still don't believe it is stealing though.

How can people be this dim? Seriously. Recasting and selling them is very much illegal. Its like torrenting movies and selling them. Just because a Russia/China/etc is full to the brim with thieves/bottom feeders doesn't make this right.

When you sell a recast there is no 'moral ambiguity' excuse. You are profiting from an item you are not permitted to profit from as it is not your IP.

Again, noboding is disputing that recasting is illegal. But it isn't stealing.

inquisitorlewis wrote:I love the way people find a million reasons to justify doing something they know is wrong. Whatever you need to do to justify it...lol.

I am deadset against SOPA and PIPA, but am now starting to see why it is necessary. Simply because people can't regulate themselves the government has to go and get involved.

I think it's hilarious that so many people are lining up to buy pirated goods, yet sell one of them a knock off Ipod or similar device and they will be crying foul. Where does the line get drawn? Some pirated goods are OK, but others are unacceptable.

If this was aimed at me, you failed to at least see my point; if I wasn't clear enough, I apologize. I actually don't feel the need to justify anything I do with random people on the internet because, well, they don't matter; however, it is an interesting conversation.

I buy things at the best price point that I am able to find and is convenient for me to receive. Have I bought recast goods knowing they are recasts? Yes but that doesn't mean that these are all I own, in fact they are a small portion of what I own. Why spend a large sum of money on a good that has an arbitrarily high cost when you may purchase the same good for less elsewhere? That is capitalism in its most basic form.

I hope that I was better able to express my point of view; you and others are more than welcome to disagree, it won't make me upset or think little of you. The world is a big enough place to contain a large variety or viewpoints and beliefs.

pirating isn't stealing

So stealing money isn't stealing? (given that the money should have went to the model's owner, the company that made it, rather than the recaster.)

Remove money from the equation and you could have a potentially justifiable viewpoint.

inquisitorlewis wrote:It actually has a lot to do with SOPA and why many think it is necessary. The 2 parallel each other very closely. This is exactly the kind of thread that could end up having Dakka blacklisted.

There is no law currently on the books, at least that I am aware of, that prohibits this conversation or would result in Dakka being on any blacklist.

Is Dakka even based in the U.S?

It wouldnt matter where it was hosted. Those laws (if passed) would allow companies to turn over sites that lead to piracy. That site would then be blacklisted and american users would not be able to log onto the site. I know this is little concern to people outside of the USA, but the site would suffer from something like that. Less users equals less revenue.

Talking about sending recasters store links via private message would be enough to start the ball rolling.

There's a reason Dakka has policies regarding recasting, or any other illegal activities. It doesn't belong on these boards.

inquisitorlewis wrote:It wouldnt matter where it was hosted. Those laws (if passed) would allow companies to turn over sites that lead to piracy. That site would then be blacklisted and american users would not be able to log onto the site. I know this is little concern to people outside of the USA, but the site would suffer from something like that. Less users equals less revenue.

Talking about sending recasters store links via private message would be enough to start the ball rolling.

There's a reason Dakka has policies regarding recasting, or any other illegal activities. It doesn't belong on these boards.

Again, not currently against the law and may never be; it's a bit early to be yelling fire.

Piracy is already against the law though. If this law does pass it will just give teeth to the corporations that pirating hurts. IF it does pass (and I fully realize it may not) threads like this give corporations the ammunition they need to blacklist sites. So while we may not have to worry, it doesn't hurt to be prepared for it to happen. We have certainly made stupider laws.

SOPA has been shot down, but PIPA is still in the works.

Bottom line is, recasting is stealing, buying recasts are stealing.

but....

Majority of posts in this threads are not going to have moral sympathy to not buy counterfeits because how GW does their things.

Recasting is not stealing. Piracy is not stealing. English words mean things.

Recasting is illegal and wrong, but it is not "stealing" unless you just decide to make up definitions for words.

Actually it means both:

pi·ra·cy (pr-s)
n. pl. pi·ra·cies
1.
a. Robbery committed at sea.
b. A similar act of robbery, as the hijacking of an airplane.
2. The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material: software piracy.
3. The operation of an unlicensed, illegal radio or television station

No it doesn't. It means.

a. Robbery committed at sea.
b. A similar act of robbery, as the hijacking of an airplane.
2. The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material: software piracy.
3. The operation of an unlicensed, illegal radio or television station

You could make a point if the recasting and the transaction would be done on a ship.

What about robbery isn't stealing?

Actually I think I will bow out. This thread has now gone beyond stupid

For sake of argument the following assumes that we are in the US.

Recasting is against the law. Recasting results in manufacturing counterfeit goods
Buying counterfeit goods is illegal. People that unknowingly buy the items are usually not prosecuted. though any and all buyers stand the chance of being prosecuted.

Selling, trading, or distributing (free) counterfeit goods is illegal.

These laws are on the books because large corporations have spent money buying senators and congressmen to get laws that are in the best interest of their company.

There are other laws on the books that many of us break. assigning your Judeo-Christian ethics to these laws and saying that if you break one makes you a bad person is a very limited view on the world.

Lets say you live in Pennsylvania, like inquisitorlewis profile indicates. The following are against the law

Fireworks stores may not sell fireworks to Pennsylvania residents.

Any motorist driving along a country road at night must stop every mile and send up a rocket signal, wait 10 minutes for the road to be cleared of livestock, and continue.

Motorized vehicles are not to be sold on Sundays.

You may not catch a fish with your hands.

These are laws that I suspect many in PA either totally ignore or hold in utter contempt.

However it is the LAW and using the logic presented earlier in this thread makes a person a total donkey cave for not following them to the letter.

I agree with Dakka about not posting links to sellers that offer recasts.
I am totally onboard with going after folks like Tony Heath, because he is lying and being fraudulent.
I have and would continue to report recasters that are mis-representing what they are selling/trading.
I would report a recaster of say CHS, or Pauson Games, or any of the supporters of this hobby.

I am less inclined to get upset at a quality operation that is openly & honestly selling a knockoff product of a major game company that has a proven track record of treating the hobby and us hobbyists badly


A different question to consider is your standpoint on the reproduction of OOP materials. For sake of argument lets talk about SQUATS. They are no longer sold or supported.so buying a recast does not "steal" from GW b/c they do not & will not offer them again.

Or even a similar yet different scenario, recasting a single weapon or arm to replace a missing piece of a kit. Again assuming that the kit is out of production meaning that a GW origianl is no longer sold or offered by GW?

Korraz wrote:No it doesn't. It means.

a. Robbery committed at sea.
b. A similar act of robbery, as the hijacking of an airplane.
2. The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material: software piracy.

You're aware that "software piracy" is an example given for the definition, yes?

3. The operation of an unlicensed, illegal radio or television station

You could make a point if the recasting and the transaction would be done on a ship.

He's already made a perfectly valid point. You're just attempted to obfuscate the issue by introducing ridiculous examples.

I understand that it's far more fun to make things up to justify your own lack of moral character, but please try to stick to the issue presented.

I guess I do need to jump back in real quick. First off let me state, I have no religion. I will not go further down that road.

Recasting of Squats did a lot of harm to that line. Real collectors who know anything, knows that there was a huge influx of recast squats that actually did hit the market a few years back. That entire line is now in question if you have a real squat or a fake. They still sell for a tidy sum but a lot of collectors either steer clear entirely, or search for trusted sellers.

On occassion I have paid 200 dollars plus for certain unreleased GW items. If there was a ton of recasts I wouldn't want anything to do with that miniature for that price. I am not complaining of the price I paid because I knew it was a genuine product. Maybe at this point none of the guys who buy recasts care, but some day they may become actual collectors and not people who just want to field a ton of miniatures.

Don't forget, there's a ton of people who are in the collecting side of the hobby only. Now recasting is also hurting them. They can't buy with confidence, especially if items have changed hands a few times.
We now have GW limited edition minis that are either finecast (white dwarf sub model) or resin (FW Boarding Marine, Chaos Dwarf Hellsmith). Why spend the high dollars in a few years when the market may be flooded. FW Epic buildings that are oop go for BIG BUCKS, and I am fairly confident that these are now being recast as well. Maybe hunting down LE and OOP minis doesn't appeal to everyone, but it certainly does to some in this hobby. Recasting helps ruin this aspect of the hobby.

Yes its stealing as in stealing Revenue from GW

Inquisitor Lewis, you have been making your point for 2 pages straight now and are repeating yourself. You make some valid points, but calling the thread beyond stupid yet not being able to resist still coming in to post is a good sign that maybe it's time to lay off a bit.

LunaHound wrote:Yes its stealing as in stealing Revenue from GW

By this logic, launching a competing product or making a scratchbuilt titan is stealing and that would be a silly assertion for anyone to make, we can all agree.

Recasting is not stealing, it's counterfeiting or piracy. There's a reason why we have different words for different things. They are different concepts. The loss by the company you are pirating from is not in a 1 to 1 relationship with what you took. It's an elastic loss based on the market and the equilibrium price plus your liklihood to actually buy the real one. For instance, when you buy 3 dollar oakley knockoffs in times square, oakley is not actually losing your 200$ because you never would have bought them at all. The indirect nature of this relationship is why it was necessary to use the word "piracy" instead of "theft" because it's a different distinct action and a different crime. Just like the difference between robbery and burglary, similarity is not enough for them to share a word. There is a reason the english language uses different words for those things. "stealing" means something and it doesn't mean this.

Illegal? Yes. Wrong? Yes. Stealing? no. Calling it stealing is an abuse of the english language.

Let me ask everyone who is dead set on calling it stealing. Why? Why is it so important that we call it stealing and not its proper name? Do you think it becomes less bad if we call it piracy? Piracy is still bad and wrong. There is nothing wrong with calling piracy piracy. It is still bad wrong and illegal.

MajorTom11 wrote:Inquisitor Lewis, you have been making your point for 2 pages straight now and are repeating yourself. You make some valid points, but calling the thread beyond stupid yet not being able to resist still coming in to post is a good sign that maybe it's time to lay off a bit.

I agree. Sorry about y nerd rage yesterday. Apology goes out to everyone taking place in this thread.

Sooo... where would one purchase these 'recasts'?

Only Fleabay?

Million wrote:Sooo... where would one purchase these 'recasts'?

Only Fleabay?

No, there are chinese and russian sites that openly sell them through an online shop. There is one with a fairly generic sounding name that seems to get mentioned here regularly for example, but I've actually forgotten what it's called, not that Dakka allows linking to such sites.

The fact that they are based in China or that GW can't stop them does not mean they are at all legal. Recasting isn't 'legal' in China, they just don't care. There is a difference.

Also people saying that it's legal to import from China because their recasts are legal there are also mistaken on another count... Customs often prevent counterfeit goods entering the country. I think that Customs do not prevent small single orders (worth a few hundred pounds) being delivered as they are primarily after bulk shipments where the buyer is clearly a distributor in the UK. Someone ordering a pair of counterfeit designer shoes for example could have bought them in good faith for their own use so that would be allowed though, as would a small order of recasts. Not that customs may spot them. But if you were to order a heap of them in one go to sell to your mates, then you might just feel a little heat.

Yeah, customs has a lot of trouble detecting fakes when it's just a seemingly used item in a box. They're better at spotting bulk shipments of fakes.

Rented Tritium wrote:Yeah, customs has a lot of trouble detecting fakes when it's just a seemingly used item in a box. They're better at spotting bulk shipments of fakes.

I don't know how it is in the US, but I heard one on the TV saying that is was pretty much policy that if the value was less than £250 they just let it through regardless. They are looking for distributors, not people buying cheap handbags.

Though one odd story about customs. Many years ago one of my dad's friends detected a drugs shipment being smuggled in. Being an SF fan and big reader, he opened a crate and found it full of SF novels. So picked one and and gave it a good sniff for that wonderful book smell. Unfortunately it smelt of something else. It turned out that people sending the crate had stripped the covers off all the books and replaced the glue with a cocaine paste before replacing the covers and shipping. Surely an ingenious and laborious plan, who on earth would think to look there for drugs? Only an SF fan with a need to sniff american books of course...

Hello,
One of the most common recasts that I see (because I look for this model) is the Armorcast titans, they are not produced anymore, yet there is a seller who seems to have one or two up every month, with choice of weapons. Now I would not complain about this as much if he were admiting that is what they are and selling them cheaper, however that is not the case, so he drives up the costs of the originals as well.

Regards,
Carl

All other things aside, he is not driving the cost of originals up. That's not how that works. If anything, it is driving down the cost of originals by artificially satisfying a small portion of the demand.

Cool story Howard.

insaniak wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:While we're on the subject, what do you guys look for when determining if a model is recast? I mean obviously if it's really bad, that's one thing, but when it looks pretty real, is there a warning sign or a givaway term or something?

Double mould lines are a big giveaway that something has been recast.

Again, this is not a dead giveaway either.

I have bought PLENTY of GW product fresh from the retailer in blister that had double or even treble mold lines.

This says more about the quality of the GW casting process than it does a give away for illegal recasting.

I am not saying that this would not be an indicator of illegal recasting as it may be, but GW themselves are guilty of lazy casting process of taking a model off of the production line and just casting another from that instead of using masters or at least taking the time to remove the mold lines before recasting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackmoor wrote:I think the reason why they are becoming so popular is a couple of reasons.
GW prices are so high that there might be a backlash against them. Also GW is not loved and they are horrible at public relations so people do not feel bad taking money out of their pockets.
Also the margins are so huge that for pennies a Chinese person can make a model that is equal to a month’s wage.

This. I know I wouldnt care. There was a time when I did but if they can screw me, then I have no qualms about them being screwed.

It is a crap attitude to have in the long run as GW will simply turn around and say "Well, since everyone is buying recasts of our IP, then we will just have to raise prices again. You, the consumer, don't want us raising prices again. Do you?"

Like they ever needed a reason to raise prices....

theunicorn wrote:A different question to consider is your standpoint on the reproduction of OOP materials. For sake of argument lets talk about SQUATS. They are no longer sold or supported.so buying a recast does not "steal" from GW b/c they do not & will not offer them again.

Or even a similar yet different scenario, recasting a single weapon or arm to replace a missing piece of a kit. Again assuming that the kit is out of production meaning that a GW origianl is no longer sold or offered by GW?

Are you stealing from GW?-No, but what you are doing diminishes the value and market for anyone who has a proper or complete one. Look at ebay and you'll find OOP miniatures like the old Chaos Dwarfs for $50+ for a couple of minis. If someone dumped recast Chaos Dwarfs on the market, the people selling them for $50+ a set... there odds of selling them at that price goes from slim to no chance at all. Effectually the recaster has stolen $50 in sales from them.

When it comes to insubstantial parts I don't think it really applies. A small component doesn't really carry with it the identifiable character of the copywrite work; a hand is a hand and a cape a cape. IP laws tend to protect identifiable aspects and the summation of interpretation apparent in a complete work. You'll never have that with small component parts.

aka_mythos wrote:

theunicorn wrote:
Or even a similar yet different scenario, recasting a single weapon or arm to replace a missing piece of a kit. Again assuming that the kit is out of production meaning that a GW origianl is no longer sold or offered by GW?

When it comes to insubstantial parts I don't think it really applies. A small component doesn't really carry with it the identifiable character of the copywrite work; a hand is a hand and a cape a cape. IP laws tend to protect identifiable aspects and the summation of interpretation apparent in a complete work. You'll never have that with small component parts.

So a follow up would be lets say I have a Necromunda gang I post for sale/trade either here or bartertown or eBay. I being an honest person take great photos and disclose that some of the mulitpart models have had parts lost over time and the weapons have been restored with self made replicas.
Link to a personal example of replacements for lost heavy weapons
http://warfrog.blogspot.com/2011/05/saving-ebay-finds-by-casting-your-own.html
Just to be clear I am neither selling nor am I distributing these to anyone, I also do not keep a mold from which to make additional copies. So this is a case 3 or less copies and then then molds are melted down.
Again I am not at this time selling/trading/or offering for distribution any thing I have made.

PS Mythos when are we going to see that half track in your sig finished?

By definition I am a counterfeiter for having done this.

Who would be interested in purchasing a listing like this and why?
OR conversely who would be so staunchly opposed to the concept that they reported it to mods/etc?

I encountered some of these recasters, expecially from china.

All their products look great so I am thinking of getting a few, that is if i can't get them even cheaper.

I just don't want to pay a fortune just to play with my model men.

I had contact with one of the chinese seller (not on ebay), and they seem to be nice people and their quality are perfect.

aka_mythos wrote:

theunicorn wrote:A different question to consider is your standpoint on the reproduction of OOP materials. For sake of argument lets talk about SQUATS. They are no longer sold or supported.so buying a recast does not "steal" from GW b/c they do not & will not offer them again.

Are you stealing from GW?-No, but what you are doing diminishes the value and market for anyone who has a proper or complete one. Look at ebay and you'll find OOP miniatures like the old Chaos Dwarfs for $50+ for a couple of minis. If someone dumped recast Chaos Dwarfs on the market, the people selling them for $50+ a set... there odds of selling them at that price goes from slim to no chance at all. Effectually the recaster has stolen $50 in sales from them.

I'm not bothered by this particular effect upon the 2nd hand market. A person selling stuff 2nd hand has no right to expect to sell it for a high price. The price is dictated by demand for a rare object rather than a high investment at your end, it's nice to have a windfall on some old stuff but you don't have a right to an inflated collectors value on old figures. You didn't create or make the stuff, you are merely selling you old stuff that happens to be in short supply. Your collection may be devalued by recasters, but you aren't being stolen from in any real way, IMO.

I *am* bothered by the way that some recasters pass off OOP recasts as the genuine thing rather than being bothered by recasting per se. When you have figures like sergeant centurius which are in ridiculously short supply, as long as there's an understanding there that the customer knows what they are getting for their money that's okay. I do not like those people recasting and then charging £50-100 for it as though it were the genuine article. That to me is a different level of dishonesty, because you are cheating people directly out of their money, rather than devaluing some nebulous amount a person's collection may or may not be worth.

I say all this as someone who has sold substantial numbers of older collectable figures ranging from 10-30 years old. If people can get hold of an OOP figure they really want for a modest amount and they know they are paying for a recast, it doesn't bother me. I would genuinely rather more people have access to rare and unusual figures not less, just so that a handful of models can pass around a small number of rich collectors and maintain a high value. I believe that true collectors can spot the real thing and are only interested in the real thing which is why they are rigorous about checking photos and who they buy from, and often buy things still packaged. Older, rarer figures often they pass around between people that know each other. I know for a fact that when I've sold stuff on eBay, I see the same names and addresses time and again. It's a small world.

I just wanted to chime in and say that this has been a great thread to read and follow as it has developed. I have seen several examples of the recasters on Ebay. I really don't think that they try too hard to hide themselves. For the most part they seem to sell Forgeworld models at around 80% for buy it nows. I really don't understand how Forgeworld has not stepped in to stop these sellers. As far as independent sites I have only found one and the prices make it very clear that they are recasters based on below wholesale prices. I do have to say though that finding these sites are no easy thing. As a matter of fact the only one I found after a large amount of research, I found due to discussions on a different forum. I see it as a clear cut answer. If you do not wish to support recasters, then do not take advantage of deals too good to be true. If the moral/ethical side does not bother you then proceed at your own risk, don't be surprised about questionable quality, and don't try to overjustify the minitures equivalent to downloading music or movies without paying for them.

giothulu wrote:I just wanted to chime in and say that this has been a great thread to read and follow as it has developed. I have seen several examples of the recasters on Ebay. I really don't think that they try too hard to hide themselves. For the most part they seem to sell Forgeworld models at around 80% for buy it nows. I really don't understand how Forgeworld has not stepped in to stop these sellers. As far as independent sites I have only found one and the prices make it very clear that they are recasters based on below wholesale prices. I do have to say though that finding these sites are no easy thing. As a matter of fact the only one I found after a large amount of research, I found due to discussions on a different forum. I see it as a clear cut answer. If you do not wish to support recasters, then do not take advantage of deals too good to be true. If the moral/ethical side does not bother you then proceed at your own risk, don't be surprised about questionable quality, and don't try to overjustify the minitures equivalent to downloading music or movies without paying for them.

I wish I would have come to this conclusion yesterday. Well said.

There's a huge amount of recast models floatinga round for battletech, particuarly for the discontinued "unseen" models that are in high demand. It's so bad that the only way to make sure you have a legit model is to buy it still sealed in the blister pack which is very hard to come by as most of them are 15-20 years old. The sealed packs can go for as much as a$100 for certain figures where unsealed versions might get $10. The battledriod versions are the most faked and even known fakes can go for $100+ depending on the model and the quality.

Even when you know what to look for it's very easy to get duped by a knock off product. There's regular stretches of time where 50%+ of the battletech auctions on ebay are for counterfiet items. If you buy a second hand collection there's almost 100% chance you'll get several knock off minis in there.

GW product seems to be heading that route now as well, their move to finecast has made the job even easier for pirating miniatures. To do metal minis right you need a spincaster which even in used condition will set the counterfeiter back 5,000-6,000 and new machines are 10-15k+, meanwhile you can get set up for casting resin for around $300 and if you are good be able to make product that is easily comperable to finecast. In some cases the pirates are out producing GW on the quality of their casts. A lot of the chinese casters do an amazingly good job and it's sad that they have better quality control than GW.

Combine increased quality with lower cost and you have a huge firestorm ready to explode.

Not to be a jerk, but the "chinese casters doing an amazingly good job" are generally ones working out of factories with numbers of employees which make GW's operations look like a kid's lemonade stand.

Kanluwen wrote:Not to be a jerk, but the "chinese casters doing an amazingly good job" are generally ones working out of factories with numbers of employees which make GW's operations look like a kid's lemonade stand.

I suspect at least one group of them are/were the factory(sweatshop) that FW used for cheap labor for a while. I think a good example of irony is send master copies of expensive to the folks that end up ripping you off, plus they quite probably trained them on how to make the molds as well.

I think a lot of the product is coming from the plants GW opened up themselves. It may well be GW product falling off the truck and going home with employees who are selling it on their own.

There's not enough volume of these products coming from China to be giant smoke belching factories filled with cheap yellow labor. I run a casting company and you'd be shocked at how much product just two people can crank out in a day. Most of the sites I've seen selling these products are likely solo opperations a few of the larger ones might be 3-4 workers.

A single person witha spincaster can turn out hundreds of figures in an hour, most of these sites don't have more than a few dozen copies in stock at a given time, which to me indicates solo casting and not sweat shop factories.

It's very common in counterfeiting that a group will come into the factory that actually makes the product and overnight they produce their own with cheap or questionably sourced materials using the same machines. If there are any Chinese factories that currently do or have in the past made GW figures, I would not be very surprised if this was the case.

Suprisingly, I see few Chinese recasts popping up on eBay. There is the common Chaos Warhound from the same guy but that's about it. Given that FW supposedly sent their stuff to China for a bit, you'd think that there'd be more recasts coming out of there.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I'm not bothered by this particular effect upon the 2nd hand market. A person selling stuff 2nd hand has no right to expect to sell it for a high price. The price is dictated by demand for a rare object rather than a high investment at your end, it's nice to have a windfall on some old stuff but you don't have a right to an inflated collectors value on old figures. You didn't create or make the stuff, you are merely selling you old stuff that happens to be in short supply. Your collection may be devalued by recasters, but you aren't being stolen from in any real way, IMO.

The natural state of property is one where its value is what was paid for it, diminsihed only through consumption of utility or market availability. These older miniatures are collectables who's intrinsic value will only climb over time. This is a capitalistic society, where any purchase of any good is regarded an investment in growth or utility. There are people who "invest" in miniatures with the express intent of selling them at a later date. These people are damaged financially by recasting. While its easy for you to not value these types of investments, it isn't your livelyhood thats dependent upon them. They are committed to legal enterprise and we shouldn't allow their pursuit to be hampered by those committed to criminal ones.

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I say all this as someone who has sold substantial numbers of older collectable figures ranging from 10-30 years old. If people can get hold of an OOP figure they really want for a modest amount and they know they are paying for a recast, it doesn't bother me. I would genuinely rather more people have access to rare and unusual figures not less, just so that a handful of models can pass around a small number of rich collectors and maintain a high value. I believe that true collectors can spot the real thing and are only interested in the real thing which is why they are rigorous about checking photos and who they buy from, and often buy things still packaged. Older, rarer figures often they pass around between people that know each other. I know for a fact that when I've sold stuff on eBay, I see the same names and addresses time and again. It's a small world.

I'd love it if alot of the oldies were still in production but if someone knows they're buying a recast than its effectually a replica or reproduction... which IF licensed would be perfectly fine. The problem is you shouldn't have to be a "true collector" to be able to trust a market place.

Breotan wrote:Suprisingly, I see few Chinese recasts popping up on eBay. There is the common Chaos Warhound from the same guy but that's about it. Given that FW supposedly sent their stuff to China for a bit, you'd think that there'd be more recasts coming out of there.

There have been, I know for a fact. This one seller has his own site and had been selling resin casts of plastic kits in addition to FW recasts.

The recasting of plastics suprises me. I wouldn't think there'd be much of a market for such obvious knockoffs.

Breotan wrote:The recasting of plastics suprises me. I wouldn't think there'd be much of a market for such obvious knockoffs.

some people either won't pay attention to the casting medium, won't know what the original medium was or prefer to work in another medium.

hell, if I could find good-quality metal casts of some of the finecast-only models I'd be sorely tempted to go for it, because I prefer working in metal.

Incidentally, one of the prominent chinese recasters (starts with M) has removed their whole Forgeworld section, maybe under pressure, maybe because it was drawing too much attention, or maybe because Chinese New Year is coming up and they don't want to be swamped with orders.

recasting of GW stuff has been going on for years. back in the early 90's(93-94). A few of my friends order some eldar from alt.rec.warhammer. the models showed up and they where bad recasts. the howling banshees looked like they were armed with clubs.

re-casting has always happened and always will.

Charax wrote:

Breotan wrote:The recasting of plastics suprises me. I wouldn't think there'd be much of a market for such obvious knockoffs.

some people either won't pay attention to the casting medium, won't know what the original medium was or prefer to work in another medium.

hell, if I could find good-quality metal casts of some of the finecast-only models I'd be sorely tempted to go for it, because I prefer working in metal.

Incidentally, one of the prominent chinese recasters (starts with M) has removed their whole Forgeworld section, maybe under pressure, maybe because it was drawing too much attention, or maybe because Chinese New Year is coming up and they don't want to be swamped with orders.

The irony was that for the longest while he was the only place you could go to get the other twin-linked autocannon dread arm that Forgeworld use to make but had removed from its site.

As far as plastic recast in resin goes, I didn't pick any up, but when a guy is charging $1 for a plasma gun, meltagun, and flamer as a set... you sure get tempted.

skkipper wrote:recasting of GW stuff has been going on for years...

re-casting has always happened and always will.

Right, but there is an ebb and flow to it. As the MSRP of the models rises, you'll see the recasts going up a bit.

This thread isn't about the fact that recasting is happening , it's about the RISE of recasting lately. You didn't used to see as much as you do now.

Since it seems like most of you have seen the quality of the recasts, so the question now is....

How come finecast quality is inferior to chinese sweatshop counterfeiters?

LunaHound wrote:Since it seems like most of you have seen the quality of the recasts, so the question now is....

How come finecast quality is inferior to chinese sweatshop counterfeiters?

I assume it's the resin being used.

LunaHound wrote:Since it seems like most of you have seen the quality of the recasts, so the question now is....

How come finecast quality is inferior to chinese sweatshop counterfeiters?

I understand resin casting benefits from doing a million tiny things correctly. They're doing more of those things correctly.

I dislike recasters I want and expect the real deal.

I got stung over Christmas by the Russian recaster.

Double mould lines different resin no base and wrong packaging were the clues.

Quick email to Forgeworld and they confirmed that he was a recaster and he was under investigation. Gave me some advice and offered help to recover my money. Even offered to replace the models if I was unsuccessful in getting a refund.

Jumped on to paypal and filed a dispute - money was back in my account within a couple of hours. Sent the models to Forgeworlds free post address - as they are collecting evidence - included paper work as well.

I don't understand why Forgeworld doesn't just buy up all recast models on ebay and as soon as they are delivered file a claim. Suppose this could be said for most counterfiters.

narkuk wrote:I dislike recasters I want and expect the real deal.

When there's a buyout at one third the going rate on a stack of ten or more items, you can't convince anyone you're expecting legitimate FW stuff.

Rented Tritium wrote:

skkipper wrote:recasting of GW stuff has been going on for years...

re-casting has always happened and always will.

Right, but there is an ebb and flow to it. As the MSRP of the models rises, you'll see the recasts going up a bit.

This thread isn't about the fact that recasting is happening , it's about the RISE of recasting lately. You didn't used to see as much as you do now.

Recasting is not rising. they maybe easier to find but they amount hasn't really gone up. before most of the recasting was done with metal and it was hard to tell fakes from reals. now the recasts have shifted to resin and the colors of the resin are different from GW norm, so it is easier to spot. I know I have bought and then later sold models that were recasts. the chinese influx is new because you can order fakes off of websites that look like a real store. it may be easier now but I don't think the quantity has gone up.

Breotan wrote:

narkuk wrote:I dislike recasters I want and expect the real deal.

When there's a buyout at one third the going rate on a stack of ten or more items, you can't convince anyone you're expecting legitimate FW stuff.

Yes that is usually a clue but this stuff was less than 10% cheaper and the seller claimed it was FW - even when pushed. He only backed down when I made a claim.

Didn't notice the Russian location only saw dollars so assumed USA.

Never assume but it looked like a guy liquidating his collection.

Still got my money back so no harm done.

Hello,
I think the most interesting recaster example I found lately was out of Russia, they were trying to sell a T-Hawk, with 2 left wings, claiming of course that it was a FW product. Now we all know when you spend an ungodly sum on one of those your gonna contact them to get the correct wing, and not just sell it on ebay for 400$. It also takes 6 weeks to get anything form her "company" ( I am assuming they migh tbe recasting on a "as needed" basis) including enough terminators from the Space Hulk game to assume that it was never a limited production.

Regards,
Carl

I got a lufgt huron from Russia, 45 day postage, but detail was superb.

The Chinese place just renewed its stock. I'm ordering a Kil Bursta tonight, and all you guys who equate morals with law can bite me

lord_blackfang wrote:The Chinese place just renewed its stock. I'm ordering a Kil Bursta tonight, and all you guys who equate morals with law can bite me

I really want to put this in my sig.

LunaHound wrote:Since it seems like most of you have seen the quality of the recasts, so the question now is....

How come finecast quality is inferior to Chinese sweatshop counterfeiters?

This is both interesting and sad at the same time. You know there is something wrong when Chinese recasts become the preferred avenue, in terms of quality and price.

Having seen multiple examples from that Chinese place I can confirm that the quality is out of this world.

lord_blackfang wrote:The Chinese place just renewed its stock.

And most of it was gone within a couple of hours.

I wish they'd release the Tyranid Spore Chimney...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:The Chinese place just renewed its stock.

And most of it was gone within a couple of hours.

I wish they'd release the Tyranid Spore Chimney...

Sorry ! which one is the chimney?

The really big one with the three towers coming out of it and all the 'bulbs' in the middle. It would make a great centrepiece or objective.

Hmmm should leave that out

The entire plastic kit sprue recasters are just using the same equipment and materials as the "legit" ones generally - just in the "off period" (the machines are often shut down for so many hours a day for maintenance, etc). They just start the machine up in its "downtime" for some FOs ('Foreign order") and crank out a batch. GW still have some of their plastics done in China, and ALL of their (rule and army) books.

The quality is the same because they use the same machine.

As for recast FW. They DID have a Shanghai facility briefly. I'm assuming that they did teach them the ropes, and the local mentality being what it is, ANY way to earn extra money on the side is a viable option, so those casters that were taught how to do it, continued to do so after FW pulled out. Probably using "test casts" as new masters. I know I've done it for work (original mould was destroyed for whatever reason yet we needed to make a new batch), so we dug out the first casts and redid the moulds.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Having seen multiple examples from that Chinese place I can confirm that the quality is out of this world.

lord_blackfang wrote:The Chinese place just renewed its stock.

And most of it was gone within a couple of hours.

I wish they'd release the Tyranid Spore Chimney...

The Chimney is the last piece I am looking for as well.

They DID have malenthropes for 19.99 each

theunicorn wrote:They DID have malenthropes for 19.99 each

And let me tell you, the cast is perfect

My question is how does the Russian and Hongkong sellers able to continue to operate on ebay for so long? I've seen them for a couple of years now. And the seller from Brazil has been churning out limited editions minis for so many years. And I believe its illegal to sell pirated stuff on ebay. So how does these guys still able to continue to operate?

Dont GW or FW took action against these guys? They took action when some talented dudes tried to make a movie but they ignored recasters selling openly on ebay.

Just read through this..and can honestly say ive never even noticed recasts on sites ..so for purely educational purposes anyone who wants to feel free to send me a link

theunicorn wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Having seen multiple examples from that Chinese place I can confirm that the quality is out of this world.

lord_blackfang wrote:The Chinese place just renewed its stock.

And most of it was gone within a couple of hours.

I wish they'd release the Tyranid Spore Chimney...

The Chimney is the last piece I am looking for as well.

They DID have malenthropes for 19.99 each

lord_blackfang wrote:

theunicorn wrote:They DID have malenthropes for 19.99 each

And let me tell you, the cast is perfect

Not perfect but damn near perfect ordered on Jan 13th arrived on Feb 17th not too shabby

I've noticed that they're starting to do Finecast stuff, too. Don't know how I feel about that. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Russian products were better quality than the GW ones? o.O

I think there's a rise (if there indeed is) because of the embargo.

Lot more sellers selling sprues out of the box means it's easier for these people to trick people who expect the real thing.

Yeah it was funny to see a metal firebelly.

danteng7 wrote:My question is how does the Russian and Hongkong sellers able to continue to operate on ebay for so long? I've seen them for a couple of years now. And the seller from Brazil has been churning out limited editions minis for so many years. And I believe its illegal to sell pirated stuff on ebay. So how does these guys still able to continue to operate?

Dont GW or FW took action against these guys? They took action when some talented dudes tried to make a movie but they ignored recasters selling openly on ebay.

A lot of it depends on where the recasters are physically located. Copyrights don't tend to mean much in certain areas (and mean more than they should in others).

If the country they are in doesn't recognise or give two fiqs about the copyrights or IP rights, then good luck getting them stopped. They'll just start up a new vendor.

Breotan wrote:I've noticed that they're starting to do Finecast stuff, too. Don't know how I feel about that. Wouldn't it be ironic if the Russian products were better quality than the GW ones? o.O

Given their quality with FW items, I'd say that high quality is a given, no?

[EDIT]: HA! They sell Diaz Daemonette Cav now. Interesting...

insaniak wrote:It comes and goes.

I would suspect that if there is a surge right now, it would be prompted by people trying to cash in on peoples' reluctance to buy 'Fine'cast.

That's a good point, I didn't think of that at all.

Personally i do not care if the model is a recast copy or what ever have you, as long as i am aware of it and can make an informed decision on the purchase. Keeping that in mind, i will buy knock offs and sleep well at night, if a company does well for its consumer base then it will not need to worry about copies, and if it does not then it deserves what ever it gets.

Case in point, Wolf guard terminators, optimum loadout for this guys is cyclone, combi-weapon and power weapon, ciclone power and sb for standalone cheap units. Out of this, in a box of 5 get a grand total of 2 power weapons and 5 stormbolters. That´s it. So what in gods green earth, would motivate me to buy an expensive item that comes with missing parts?. Following my thought above, i purchased 10 recasted torsos and legs, 20 recasted shoulderguards, 20+ gray knights terminator arms and storm bolters, and since some of the parts would be rather frail done in resin, ill buy 10 "original" gray knights terminators power weapons. I get 10 full figures at the price of a little over 5, less if i would ordered everything together instead of dragging up the project.

Another option is to buy a box of termies and get torsos shoulders and legs to use with the spares, would not be optimum but would make you more wolves.

It's a pretty bad sign if people are buying the recasts 'for quality' rather than their price.

Well, granted i am quite possibly not your average gamer, but incomplete sets are a rather important quality issue for me.

[edited]