Plenty of fluff exists that details various miracles and acts of faith that goes beyond the mundane and might even be divine.
But are these effects and events fueled by the warp, as all other gods in the cosmology seem to draw their power here? I had a discussion with a mate about this and he said no. that the angels summoned by the faith of the sisters of battle are not warp entities and that they cant possibly be "good daemons". If not that then where does this energy come from?

Another valid question would be that if these energies actually fuel a warp god named the emperor or even the actual emperor, then how many faiths and practices are actually on the right track? When you look at the various books out there it comes apparent that the imperial faith can easily be distorted to serve darker means, and indeed many cults think they worship the emperor and are in error...

any thoughts on this? speculation is totally fine, but if you can quote material that will help a lot.

It is a simple answer: Sister get all of their "magic" Act's of Faith and Resurrection via the Emperor himself. He is giving them portion of his power to use it in battle. And since Emperor channel all his power trough Warp you can tell that fallen angels are Warp entities. But not all Warp is Chaos.

For more details wait until Lynata and Melissia post.

Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

I dont really believe that the "miracles" have anything to do with the Emperor. Now if I recall correctly there was a book in HH ( I believe it was The Flight of the Eisenstein by Swallow, but I am not 100% sure) where a Remeberence Euphrati Keeler (?) did banish a daemon back to the warp, due to her fervant faith. This might not mean that her faith allowed her to do that, she might have been a latent psyker (though I do not really believe that). In my opinion those "miracles" or acts of faith happen because people do believe that they will happen ( do not confuse this with the Orks ability to think that red goes fasta! religious faith is one thing the Orks...well they are on a different category ). Do not forget that humanity woships(again religious practise)the Chaos Gods or their aspects and as such they get the "fuel" they require.

Again this is my personal opinion.

The God-Emperor and the Emperor of Mankind are not the same entity.
The God-Emperor is a warp entity, fuelled by the prayers and worship of the members of the imperial cult, who is based on the template of the Emperor of Mankind, who united the human race and started the Imperium. Whereas the EoM hated religion and thought it held mankind back, the G-E is fuelled by religion. if they met they probably wouldn't get on at all This is why SM's dont get the special treatment that the Sisters of Battle do, they believe in two very different Emperor's.

on the subject of good Deamons, Deamons are just a physical manifestation of a warp entity's power, so yes good Deamons are possible, for example, the Eldar Avatar.

Yeah, in the absence of a better explanation, it's always been my assumption that the Sisters of Battle are in fact unknowingly practising sorcery, and that living saints are daemons serving the Emperor.

As to why the Space Marines don't get Faith powers (ignoring the actual explanation that Faith is there to give the Sisters of Battle something distinct in rules terms) my explanation would be that, even if they nominally worship the Emperor, the Astartes are still conditioned to the old Imperial virtues of self-reliance and belief in a rational cosmos.

Moreover, Space Marines don't need to pray for divine intervention, they are divine intervention.

IMO, the God-Emperor and the Emperor are one and the same, just that Sisters and that Keeler, believing in His divinity, can actually call on His power without Him realizing it. After all, the Emperor is a gestalt reincarnation of tens of thousands of shamans, just like Slaanesh is just a collection decadent and non-decadent Eldar souls. Faith just draws on the Emperor's 'warp shadow' or His presence in the warp. Astartes can't do that since they follow the Imperial Truth, and so can't really invoke the Emperor's power.

Tadashi wrote:IMO, the God-Emperor and the Emperor are one and the same, just that Sisters and that Keeler, believing in His divinity, can actually call on His power without Him realizing it. After all, the Emperor is a gestalt reincarnation of tens of thousands of shamans, just like Slaanesh is just a collection decadent and non-decadent Eldar souls. Faith just draws on the Emperor's 'warp shadow' or His presence in the warp. Astartes can't do that since they follow the Imperial Truth, and so can't really invoke the Emperor's power.

a physical being cant be a warp entity. you cant call on the powers of a psyker, no matter how powerfull. whereas slannesh is a warp entity fuelled by decadence, not made of souls, the emperor is a physical being who's soul is a soul collective.

Exactly my point. The Emperor chose to limit Himself by encasing Himself in a mortal form, in effect not becoming a god, but His nature is still a god. I refer to this as a warp shadow, His imprint on the warp that believers can call on and strengthening Him in the process.

he's definitely NOT a god. a powerful psyker yes, but his nture is not of the warp like , for example, a deamon. he is flesh and bone.
the warp shadow rings true, but it would be a VERY different thing from the actual emperor, and as I have said, they would probably hate each other

Not if the God-Emperor is the one who sits on the Throne, with His spirits of hope and compassion cast out the moment He destroyed Horus. The Emperor is a god, just that He chose not to be one when He decided to limit Himself to a mortal form. Probably one reason the Powers hate Him; He broke the rules and directly ruled Mankind.

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

It could be that his legacy is their reward. When they are changed into space marines, they are given the genetic power of the emperor. The SoB don't have this genetic gift, so he give them a portion of his "divine' power instead. Though this is speculation.

If belief translates into the warp, then the Emperor's soul is empowered by humanity's belief in him.

If people believe that power can be made manifest in the material world, it can be.

IMO an act of faith or the empowerment of a living saint is no different from when Chaos summons dark energies or empowers a Daemon Prince. It's just 'empy energy'

It's a matter of personal interpretation and preferences, and GW purposefully left a lot of details open for just that. Personally, I dislike the idea of "divine magic" as I like to see everything having some sort of explanation behind it. For 40k, this usually means that something is powered by the Warp, but since Sisters cannot be psykers themselves it would either have to be the Emperor working through them (an idea propagated by the Ecclesiarchy, though of course without the notion of it being a psychic power) or that the abilities of the Sisters are quite simply an effect of their own personal determination and sheer refusal to "back down", their zeal and fanaticism driving them on where others would give up. I like that the Acts of Faith from their last proper Codex were so vague that you could indeed say they were a divine power or just good fortune and skill based entirely on your own preferences, and this is how I want to continue to roll.

Of course, the few Living Saints are an entirely different topic, as they are clearly a supernatural phenomenon. Here, it is my theory that we have a benign warp-spawned entity created by the collective faith and despair of the Emperor's people during some sort of crisis possessing one of the faithful and using this body to enact righteous vengeance. Like an Anti-Slaanesh, a product of the emotions of the human race mixed with their dedication to the Imperial Creed. And since the Sisters of Battle are usually to be found in the focal point of this conflict, it makes sense that it is one of them that would serve as the host, fighting on until the body is "burnt up" by the intense energies radiated of this avenging angel, at which point it will disappear again. The one thing I am not yet entirely decided about would be whether it is always the same entity or it is "born anew" each time it is "summoned" by the emotions set free by the masses of the faithful. The former could explain why the "birth" of a Living Saint only occurs every couple centuries, whilst the latter is better suited to address a single Living Saint popping up again and again, possibly having a smaller "crisis threshold" for the purpose of re-appearing than the original creation...

My two bolt shells on the subject, anyways.

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The Emperor doesn't help the Sisters in that way either. It's fundamentally impossible in the established setting. The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god. It would be like Khorne offering his powers to someone for planting flowers just because they had utterly convinced themselves that Khorne was the God of Botany. So the Acts of Faith are almost certainly the hidden manipulations of one of the Chaos powers (probably Tzeentch because he's just that kind of jerk), and the Sisters are ultimately even worse heretics than they already are.

It's really why the 2nd Edition rules made so much more sense for the Sisters. They had the Sacred Rites, which represented a Canoness or Sister Superior whipping the sisters up with some kind of fiery speech or invocation. The Sacred Rites reflected the idea that the Sisters were utterly devoted religious fanatics, which is what they are supposed to be.

I'm with Lynata here.

85% propaganda - Millions of such 'miracles' happen throughout the Imperium on a daily basis. A warpship arriving early on schedule, an unnaturally bountiful harvest, a reactor explosion being contained in the last minute and even seemingly unlikely victories obtained due enemy error are without a doubt atributed to the Emperor. We're dealing with a highly superstitious totalitarian state here.

10% unknown psychic phenomena - Living saints, SoB acts of faith, ordinary guardsman banishing a daemon through sheer faith and force of will, prophetic visions...

5% the Emperor himself - Hard to single out from the other two, but still likely, as the Emperor HAS a presence in the warp.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god.

That's a good point, actually.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:So the Acts of Faith are almost certainly the hidden manipulations of one of the Chaos powers (probably Tzeentch because he's just that kind of jerk), and the Sisters are ultimately even worse heretics than they already are.

Or the Acts of Faith are quite simply a way of zeal and conviction enabling the Sisters to do things that make others pause and wonder. We have this "mind over matter" kind of stuff happening in our real world, too - from karate kids using their bare hands to chop through layers of solid bricks to people completely shutting themselves off from feeling pain to the extreme mental focus of a sniper aiming for the perfect shot. All of this can be evoked and strengthened by the Sisters' faith, which acts as a catalyst for the human mind as it eases the dismissal of "distracting" ideas of ego, honour, doubt, etc and replaces them with perfect calm, allowing the individual to concentrate entirely on a singular task. "Do not think, act."

The "Chaos did it" theory doesn't work for the same reason you already voiced for the Emperor's relationship to the Space Marines. Why would Tzeentch (or any other Chaos god) empower an enemy force that frequently gets in his way whilst simultaneously withholding these bonuses from his own followers? And no, I don't believe the "it's all according to plan lol" joker will suffice here.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The Emperor doesn't help the Sisters in that way either. It's fundamentally impossible in the established setting. The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god.

Part of the reason it makes no sense, of course, is that the Sisters' Faith rules were written several years before Horus Rising established the Emperor as a rational empiricist determined to wash away religion and superstition with scientific truth.

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

English Assassin wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The Emperor doesn't help the Sisters in that way either. It's fundamentally impossible in the established setting. The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god.

Part of the reason it makes no sense, of course, is that the Sisters' Faith rules were written several years before Horus Rising established the Emperor as a rational empiricist determined to wash away religion and superstition with scientific truth.

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

The Word Bearers being chastised for worshiping the Emperor as a god dates back to at least White Dwarf 270, which was July 2002. Probably earlier, but that's the first time I can positively attribute it as I don't have a handy copy of the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos to see if it was in there too. The Acts of Faith in Codex Witch Hunters didn't come out until 2003.

Tadashi wrote:Not if the God-Emperor is the one who sits on the Throne, with His spirits of hope and compassion cast out the moment He destroyed Horus. The Emperor is a god, just that He chose not to be one when He decided to limit Himself to a mortal form. Probably one reason the Powers hate Him; He broke the rules and directly ruled Mankind.

the powers hate him cuz the EoM told his followers not to follow religious beliefs; that and the fact the GE is now stealing followers from them.
gods arent sentient beings in the way we are, more collections of emotions and beliefs to make up one gestalt consciousness. its very unlikely he could choose to do anything.

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

This seems like the most likely explanation. The Emperor was once a man who tried to get humanity to stop following religion, but now, in a time where religion is the only thing holding the Imperium together in his stead, he may have realized that until humanity is once again safe he will have to play the role of their patron god. Dosent mean he has to like it, he is first and foremost humanities greatest protector after all. If the Imperium didnt have The Imperial Creed, what's really holding it together?

Not to mention that the Emperor seems like the kind of guy who would use any method at his disposal to mess up his enemies, like giving his chosen daughters a little 'boost' every now and then.

Sanctus-Malas wrote:

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

This seems like the most likely explanation. The Emperor was once a man who tried to get humanity to stop following religion, but now, in a time where religion is the only thing holding the Imperium together in his stead, he may have realized that until humanity is once again safe he will have to play the role of their patron god. Dosent mean he has to like it, he is first and foremost humanities greatest protector after all. If the Imperium didnt have The Imperial Creed, what's really holding it together?

Not to mention that the Emperor seems like the kind of guy who would use any method at his disposal to mess up his enemies, like giving his chosen daughters a little 'boost' every now and then.

not sure i agree with your theory that religion is all that's holding the Imperium together. the ecclesiarchy hinders man by limiting its contacts with other races and its study into the warp. doing a tau (colonisation) or an eldar ( warp-awesomeness) would probably strengthen the empire a good deal more than religion.

Religion is not what holds the Imperium together, it is fear and force of arms, lol. Besides, offering divine intervention to a tiny, select force like the Sisters really makes no difference in how the common Imperial citizen would view the Cult of the Emperor or the legitimacy of his divinity. If he was trying to do that, he'd be better off serving up miracles to the Imperial Guard. The average Imperial citizen, or even PDF or Guardsman is only slightly more likely to see a Battle Sister in his lifetime (let alone in combat where she'd be calling forth miracles) than a Space Marine.

No, there's really just no logical explanation for the Acts of Faith because they are wholly incongruous to the setting.

Don't underestimate the power of faith as a source for morale. Man's soul yearns for something greater to believe in, and religion is the most efficient catalyst as it allows for hope beyond the reasonable, in turn breeding devotion beyond the reasonable. And this is not something exclusive to the Adepta Sororitas - they are merely the most devout and exemplary followers of the Imperial Cult, in turn evoking a stronger reaction from the people. Any Confessor worth half his salt is quite able to stir up the populace in a similar manner, orally whipping them into a frenzy before unleashing the newly armed masses of the faithful upon enemies of the faith.

"Their sheer faith in the divine Emperor has been decisive in several engagements. Battered and dispirited Guardsmen have been given new heart as the Sisters refuse to give ground under ferocious Orks assaults and within the Hives, the impassioned words of resistance spoken by the Sisterhood has steadied the resolve of entire populations."
- faction intro for the Order of the Argent Shroud, GW's official Armageddon 3 campaign website

"Their unshakeable determination spreads to any force they fight alongside and there have been many Imperial Guard officers who, inspired by the Sisters' presence, have also united behind the Order's vow."
- faction intro for the Order of Our Martyred Lady, GW's official Armageddon 3 campaign website

Yes, faith isn't necessary to hold the Imperium together. But neither are fear and force of arms, when you look at it that way, or do you see the USA standing on the verge of splintering because the Army isn't occupying the streets? The Imperium could be an atheistic nation, yes. Just as much as it could also be a democracy of mutual voluntary cooperation. Faith and fear simply happen to be the most effective means to control a population. Various religious organizations understand this too well, as do non-religious despotic regimes.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:No, there's really just no logical explanation for the Acts of Faith because they are wholly incongruous to the setting.

That depends entirely on whether you choose to view these "miracles" as some sort of whacky divine magic - or quite simply as a combination of good fortune and a determination that enables them to perform feats regarded as miraculous. We've had this sort of stuff on our real world, too. A lot of religions are based on what I assume was nothing more but dumb luck, coincidence, exceptional talent and/or perseverance. And the people of the Imperium of Man are easily as gullible as mankind in ancient times or the middle ages.

They use belief to become more accurate shooters, cause ammunition to do more damage, or gain invulnerable saves?

Like I said, the Sacred Rites worked that way. Made them immune to fear, caused them to frenzy or gain hatred, immunity to morale tests, etc. Even the one that allowed them to fire a second time could at least be explained as them ignoring danger to concentrate their firepower. And it was the most difficult result to achieve.

Faith as a psychological effect is plausible. Divine intervention in a setting lacking a divine entity to provide it is not.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:They use belief to become more accurate shooters, cause ammunition to do more damage, or gain invulnerable saves?

Yup. Some Acts of Faith are undoubtedly more dodgy than others, but they remain explainable. Ammunition does not simply "do more damage" - it is described as finding a chink in the armour and can be explained by mental focus or plain ole' luck. Just like the invulnerable save is a mind-over-matter approach to ignore the intense pain of a wound which would otherwise strike you down, unable to fight on - and may very well have you succumb to your injuries after the battle is concluded. In fact, this is really no different from FNP, is it?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Faith as a psychological effect is plausible. Divine intervention in a setting lacking a divine entity to provide it is not.

There we are in agreement.

And yeah, I also liked the Sacred Rites. Not just because of their slightly more down-to-earth effects but also because the sheer concept of pre-battle rituals as well as how they were pulled off fluffwise (I vaguely remember something about smearing ash on their faces, though I'd have to re-read that part) was kinda cool.

Mixing with the Eldar or the Tau would be disastrous for the Imperium. Simply seizing their technology will suffice.

The Eldar, after all, had their chance, and they threw it away. They are a dying race with no hope in the cosmos of ever regaining their place.

The Tau philosophy of the "Greater Good" works really well when you don't have to contend with things like Tyranid, Orks, sluagth, Yuvath, Enslavers, and a myriad other threats in the galaxy. If the Tau Empire faced the threats the Imperium does, on the scale the Imperium does, you can bet your last powercell that the Earth Caste would find themselves slaving away in Forge World-like conditions "for the Greater Good" and the Fire Caste would be thrown into meatgrinder after meatgrinder, just like the IG. Their survival as a race would depend on it.

How do the powers of faith work? Well, considering that there is an energy source in the 40K universe that deals specifically with this sort of thing, called the Warp, I would posit that the fervent belief of uncountable trillions of humans over the last 10,000 years has shaped, or been shaped by, the Warp-signature of the Emperor's psychic might. After all, we're talking about a guy who is the reincarnation of ancient Earth's various wizards, wise men, shamans, magi, psychics and other "magic wielders". He's fully aware of the power of faith, and its ability to shape reality through the medium of the Warp. For those who's faith is strong enough, they can draw from this well to bring about miraculous effects. Unlike daemons or the psyker, however, they require no special gift or genetic trick, nor do they require being a thing alien to our reality. They're just humans, with a firm and profound belief in something greater than themselves.

Does what they do defy rational explanation? Of course it does, that's why it's called faith!

orkoidSTD wrote:he's definitely NOT a god. a powerful psyker yes, but his nture is not of the warp like , for example, a deamon. he is flesh and bone.
the warp shadow rings true, but it would be a VERY different thing from the actual emperor, and as I have said, they would probably hate each other

Uh... the Emperor is very much a God. Always has been. Always will be. This is stated in the canon of Warhammer 40,000 outside of the point of view of those living in the fluff.

"Only when humanity is free from the shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question will we see it's true brilliance."
- The Emperor of Mankind, The Last Church on Terra

The Emperor is a god, but refused to be worshiped as one, since over the millennia He watched over Mankind, He saw the damage done by religion to it despite it's benefits, and because He wanted to be different from the Chaos Powers.

Tadashi wrote:"Only when humanity is free from the shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question will we see it's true brilliance."
- The Emperor of Mankind, The Last Church on Terra

The Emperor is a god, but refused to be worshiped as one, since over the millennia He watched over Mankind, He saw the damage done by religion to it despite it's benefits, and because He wanted to be different from the Chaos Powers.

the EoM was LIKE a god, but if you read the HH books he cleary tells almost everyone HE IS A MAN. a great man, but a man none the less. your idea that he somehow CHOOSES to be a god dont work when you look at how the other gods work. theyre are simply manifestations of a races phsycic resonance in the warp. thats why the orks have the most powerfull gods.

Psienesis wrote:Mixing with the Eldar or the Tau would be disastrous for the Imperium. Simply seizing their technology will suffice.

The Eldar, after all, had their chance, and they threw it away. They are a dying race with no hope in the cosmos of ever regaining their place.

The Tau philosophy of the "Greater Good" works really well when you don't have to contend with things like Tyranid, Orks, sluagth, Yuvath, Enslavers, and a myriad other threats in the galaxy. If the Tau Empire faced the threats the Imperium does, on the scale the Imperium does, you can bet your last powercell that the Earth Caste would find themselves slaving away in Forge World-like conditions "for the Greater Good" and the Fire Caste would be thrown into meatgrinder after meatgrinder, just like the IG. Their survival as a race would depend on it.

How do the powers of faith work? Well, considering that there is an energy source in the 40K universe that deals specifically with this sort of thing, called the Warp, I would posit that the fervent belief of uncountable trillions of humans over the last 10,000 years has shaped, or been shaped by, the Warp-signature of the Emperor's psychic might. After all, we're talking about a guy who is the reincarnation of ancient Earth's various wizards, wise men, shamans, magi, psychics and other "magic wielders". He's fully aware of the power of faith, and its ability to shape reality through the medium of the Warp. For those who's faith is strong enough, they can draw from this well to bring about miraculous effects. Unlike daemons or the psyker, however, they require no special gift or genetic trick, nor do they require being a thing alien to our reality. They're just humans, with a firm and profound belief in something greater than themselves.

Does what they do defy rational explanation? Of course it does, that's why it's called faith!

i agree with your stance on faith. however when i was talking about eldar n tau i was not talking about joining them, simply incorporating technology and policies into the imperium.
but im not sure what you say about the eldar or the tau is true. i mean, yes the eldar are a dying race, but theyve been like that for at least TWENTY MILLENIA. theyre tenacious and its not too impossible to see them setting up on a couple of worlds and staging a comeback.

and the tau ARE fighting orks, tyranids, a whole host of lesser alien races AND the imperium of man. they shouldve been wiped out by now. but because they can call on their allies and have a very progressive technological stance, they have survived. who knows what they could do in the future?

IronSnake wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:he's definitely NOT a god. a powerful psyker yes, but his nture is not of the warp like , for example, a deamon. he is flesh and bone.
the warp shadow rings true, but it would be a VERY different thing from the actual emperor, and as I have said, they would probably hate each other

Uh... the Emperor is very much a God. Always has been. Always will be. This is stated in the canon of Warhammer 40,000 outside of the point of view of those living in the fluff.

ermm where? most of the fluff is seen from the point of view of the imperium and its members, or the race of whatever codex your looking at.

This is not debateable. The Emperor is a God. He chose to tell everyone who fought with him and followed him that he was not because it was part of his plan to remove religious superstition from the equation of humanities existence.

This doesn't mean he was not a God, however. He is the human races' actual God. He didn't become one simply by being worshipped for 10,000 years after his interement in the golden throne.

"The Emperor of Mankind is the sovereign of the Imperium of Man, and Father, Guardian, and God of his race."

IronSnake wrote:This is not debateable. The Emperor is a God. He chose to tell everyone who fought with him and followed him that he was not because it was part of his plan to remove religious superstition from the equation of humanities existence.

This doesn't mean he was not a God, however. He is the human races' actual God. He didn't become one simply by being worshipped for 10,000 years after his interement in the golden throne.

"The Emperor of Mankind is the sovereign of the Imperium of Man, and Father, Guardian, and God of his race."

He is ( or better was before he became a vegetable ) a powerful psyker, no more a god than other alpha/ alpha+ psykers.
All the so called miracles are either misinterpreted or bad pranks by Tzeentch who just loves to mess with the carriongod's slaves.

I don't feel like getting in to this right now, but I would like to reiterate something:

Sisters of Battle Acts of Faith are not psychic powers.

They were specifically stated not to be in second edition.

They were specifically stated not to be in third edition.

They were specifically stated not to be in that fifth edition non-codex.

They were specifically stated not to be in the FFG roleplaying games.

They were specifically stated not to be the lore, as the inquisition investigates miracles for evidence of psychic powers..


So any theory that presumes that the miracles performed by Sisters of Battle is psychic (even such subtle effects as the gestalt psychic field of the Orks, for example) is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:All the so called miracles are either misinterpreted or bad pranks by Tzeentch who just loves to mess with the carriongod's slaves.

Tzeentchian "pranks" are psychic/warp based in nature, therefor miracles are not such.

Melissia wrote:I don't feel like getting in to this right now, but I would like to reiterate something:

Sisters of Battle Acts of Faith are not psychic powers.

They were specifically stated not to be in second edition.

They were specifically stated not to be in third edition.

They were specifically stated not to be in that fifth edition non-codex.

They were specifically stated not to be in the FFG roleplaying games.

They were specifically stated not to be the lore, as the inquisition investigates miracles for evidence of psychic powers..


So any theory that presumes that the miracles performed by Sisters of Battle is psychic (even such subtle effects as the gestalt psychic field of the Orks, for example) is wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:All the so called miracles are either misinterpreted or bad pranks by Tzeentch who just loves to mess with the carriongod's slaves.

Tzeentchian "pranks" are psychic/warp based in nature, therefor miracles are not such.

Then the good sisters should ask the Necrons for clarification because all the known gods in 40k manifest their "miracles" as psychic/ warp based effects.
Since even the hypothetical carriongod is, at best, a warp entity one has to wonder where the sisters get their miracles from?

The Emperor is the most common belief. But an alternative is that they sort of create their own miracles, through their own martial prowess (it is described as training that combines martial arts and prayer that allows them to perform feats that appear as miracles to the uninitiated).

40k does not follow the same laws of physics IRL does, remember. The average human is oddly enough tougher in 40k than IRL, despite the reputation Guard has of dying in droves.

I remember reading where an Imperial pysker or something all of sudden had his eyes burn with fire and he defeated an entire army by himself and saved a planet from chaos. All because he believed in the emperor for all we know the guy could of been an Alpha Level Pysker.

Melissia wrote:The Emperor is the most common belief. But an alternative is that they sort of create their own miracles, through their own martial prowess (it is described as training that combines martial arts and prayer that allows them to perform feats that appear as miracles to the uninitiated).

40k does not follow the same laws of physics IRL does, remember. The average human is oddly enough tougher in 40k than IRL, despite the reputation Guard has of dying in droves.

Well, the Emperor is imo unlikely since, if we assume the Emperor is a god ( which he isn't, he is dead, mwhahahha, dead and rotting! Death to his lickspittle servants! Glory for Abaddon! Glory for the Warmaster! ), he would have to work his miracles in the same way that the other warpgods do.
Since, as you said, there is no warptaint noticable when it comes to miracles performed by the sisters, i think that the martial prowess explaination ( perhaps paired with the utterly inhuman determination that is only found in the true fanatic? ) is perhaps the best one.

To be precise, the quote is:

the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled.

From C:WH.

KingDeath wrote:
Since, as you said, there is no warptaint noticable when it comes to miracles performed by the sisters, i think that the martial prowess explaination ( perhaps paired with the utterly inhuman determination that is only found in the true fanatic? ) is perhaps the best one.

Actually the only explanation that makes sense is that the guys at GW don't actually care if it makes sense or not, because is no reasonable explanation for the Acts of Faith. They cannot "create their own miracles" and the codex in White Dwarf very specifically uses language that states the Emperor offers divine assistance even though it makes absolutely no sense why he would. I offer up again the fact that the Emperor, a being that refused divinity so strongly that he chastised his own son and ordered another one to raze an entire world that had been raised in his worship, would not then proceed to offer divine intervention (warp based or not) to assist people just because they believed in them hard enough. Again, that's like Khorne offering his powers to someone who planted flowers just because that person had utterly convinced themselves that Khorne was actually the Chaos God of Botany.



Flowers for the Flower God! Seeds for the Chia Throne!

Yeah, the Acts of Faith are utter nonsense. But they are what they are until they are hopefully retconned out. This is a universe where Orks can create gubbins to break any and all laws of physics or logic.

First off, the Emperor is effectively a god. He was extremely anti-religous because he knew of the dangers that religion would entail. One of the reasons why the word bearers primach went to chaos was because the emperor knew damn well that gods existed but specifically lied to everyone and said they didn't. After the heresy the Emperors internment in the golden throne and the creation of the eclesiachy based on the religion that the word bearers primach created is in a way the ultimate tragic tale.

In order to save humanity the emperor had to abandon everything he had worked towards. He had to become that which he hated simply to save humanity.

Now we all know that the emperor has an exceptionally strong and powerful essence in the warp. Hence why he keeps the forces of chaos in the imaterium, and helps power the astonomicon. similarly I would believe that essence receives power in part from the worship he receives.

when acts of faith come into the situation things become a little tricky. They are clearly not psychic in origin because sister of battle are specifically anti-psychers. There was a rule that even stated that they cannot be affected by the warp neither harmful or beneficial powers. They are not blanks, but their faith acts like a psychic shield. In a universe where Orks can bend reality to follow what they believe regardless of the actual technical possibility, and this power is also not quite a power of the warp but of something similar.

I can see the acts of faith being similar in origin to the ork powers of the waaagh. Their sheer devotion and zeal creates a waagh like field for them to draw on. Additionally this may even be partially siphoned power from the emperor himself, their devotion and faith acting like a bridge directly to his powers and essence as a protector of humanity.

Other option, its blind luck, perceived as a miracle.However given the universe has living saints and the sanguinor, it being a locally created semi-psychic field. Not quite warp powers but something similar. Think of it like a mental unity and devotion that acts like the tyranid shadow of the warp.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:I can see the acts of faith being similar in origin to the ork powers of the waaagh.

Isn't the Waaagh field psychic as well? So that wouldn't really work either
I vaguely recall the Ephrael Stern mini (back when she still had her own SC rules) not being able to use AoF due to her psychic "taint" from being Daemonifuge.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:Other option, its blind luck, perceived as a miracle.

That's how I see it working best, as anything else wouldn't make sense and there is nothing proving that this is impossible - so for me this is quite simply the explanation that seems most likely. They are only "utter nonsense" if one really wants to see them as such. As would be the case for many other things in the setting.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:However given the universe has living saints and the sanguinor, it being a locally created semi-psychic field.

I have to say, with the Living Saint I actually do believe it's psychic, too - if only because the Living Saint clearly isn't a normal human being, so normal rules do not apply. I don't know enough about the fluff surrounding Sanguinor, but given that he has the Emperor's DNA and the Emperor was/is a big psyker, too, I can see the potential.

First off, I'd like to weigh in on the Emperor's nature. He is absolutely a god in the sense of gods in this setting. His presence in the warp is vast and powerful enough to rival the chaos gods. That's really all it takes to be a god, there's nothing special about it. Just galaxy-spanning levels of psychic power. This ability is at least partly due to the thousands of souls fed into the Golden Throne every day, but nevertheless, the Emperor casts the astronomican to the far corners of the Imperium and provides a safe "carrier signal" for the soul-bound astropaths to communicate on. Plus due to the nature of the warp, prayers to him undoubtedly strengthen his presence. Unwillingly or not, he fits the description of a god in the 40k setting in every way.

Second, about the Sisters of Battle. I can see the argument that their Acts of Faith are just that, superhuman feats inspired by sheer faith and concentration and dogmatic training. However, I think this is a pretty interesting interpretation:

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:They are not blanks, but their faith acts like a psychic shield... Not quite warp powers but something similar.

So the Acts of Faith have been investigated, and no warp sign was discovered. But if the Sisters are so dogmatically anti-psyker that they create a region of semi-null-space around themselves, couldn't their Act of Faith be in plain sight, inside a bubble where psychic powers or warp-sight would fail to penetrate? Their fervent belief in the Emperor's divine guidance could subtly bend reality around them without the Emperor's intervention, just like the ork's gestalt psychic abilities, while their mental defenses against the witch and the daemon could effectively shield them from scrutiny. Just a thought.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The Emperor doesn't help the Sisters in that way either. It's fundamentally impossible in the established setting. The Emperor went so far as to reprimand one of his sons and instruct another one to destroy an entire world raised in his worship. There is categorically no way that the Emperor would then go and offer his powers as a reward to those who would (unknowingly, to their defense) then go about treating him as a god.

Part of the reason it makes no sense, of course, is that the Sisters' Faith rules were written several years before Horus Rising established the Emperor as a rational empiricist determined to wash away religion and superstition with scientific truth.

Since we're now stuck with it as canon, the simplest solution is presume that after millennia rotting in his gilded coffin, the Emperor's perspective has changed - or that, just as emotions shaped the Gods of Chaos, the unquestioning belief of innumerable billions has correspondingly shaped the Emperor into what he is believed to be.

The Word Bearers being chastised for worshiping the Emperor as a god dates back to at least White Dwarf 270, which was July 2002. Probably earlier, but that's the first time I can positively attribute it as I don't have a handy copy of the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos to see if it was in there too. The Acts of Faith in Codex Witch Hunters didn't come out until 2003.

The White Dwarf article actually only states that the Emperor chastised Lorgar for wasting time worshipping him rather than getting on with the Great Crusade, not for worshipping him per se. The Emperor's character as a secular humanist was quite definitely not established before 2006's Horus Rising.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:So the Acts of Faith have been investigated, and no warp sign was discovered. But if the Sisters are so dogmatically anti-psyker that they create a region of semi-null-space around themselves, couldn't their Act of Faith be in plain sight, inside a bubble where psychic powers or warp-sight would fail to penetrate? Their fervent belief in the Emperor's divine guidance could subtly bend reality around them without the Emperor's intervention, just like the ork's gestalt psychic abilities, while their mental defenses against the witch and the daemon could effectively shield them from scrutiny. Just a thought.

Well, it's less that the Acts of Faith were investigated, it's more that the Sisters themselves are not psykers and as such shouldn't possess these abilities. They don't just call upon them at their own leisure like some mage casting a spell - it's literally an unreliable bonus that may or may not occur when they are under pressure and left to hold on to their faith as if it'd be the only thing keeping them alive (which, in battle, often is the case considering what kind of enemies they may fight, come to think of it). But there cannot really be a "lab study" into this, is what I'm trying to say.

Anyhow - the "bubble" idea is an interesting interpretation. It also reminds me of another theory I thought about: The Emperor might simply be too strong in his psychic potential to have his powers blocked this way (the Shield of Faith only gave a small chance to resist major psychic abilities, working reliably only against weak stuff). Or the Sisters' faith allows him to override their subconscious defenses. Not my preferred interpretation, but one that would be equally viable as per the available studio fluff.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:First off, I'd like to weigh in on the Emperor's nature. He is absolutely a god in the sense of gods in this setting. His presence in the warp is vast and powerful enough to rival the chaos gods. That's really all it takes to be a god, there's nothing special about it. Just galaxy-spanning levels of psychic power. This ability is at least partly due to the thousands of souls fed into the Golden Throne every day, but nevertheless, the Emperor casts the astronomican to the far corners of the Imperium and provides a safe "carrier signal" for the soul-bound astropaths to communicate on. Plus due to the nature of the warp, prayers to him undoubtedly strengthen his presence. Unwillingly or not, he fits the description of a god in the 40k setting in every way.

i'd agree with this, however we where arguing whether he ha started off as a god, or that the prayer and belief of millions had turned him into a god. IMO the Man emperor couldnt have been a god because the other gods are meotions incarnate. the emperor had altering moods like anyother man so could not have been a god. unless ive got that completely wrong
also i was pretty sure having a warp presence (psykers, orks ect.) was not the same as being a warp entity (deamons, gods)

Been trying to get my head around this for a long, long time myself (with usual contradictory info over the years to muddy the waters further, nicely).

I don't think that SoB are really anti-psyker, but pro-'normal'-Sacred-human, otherwise they would hold Untouchables to be beloved and perfect beings... I suspect that they would despise the 'wrongness' of Untouchables just the same as anyone else (and probably moreso if they perceived that as some sort of deviation; 'Feels wrong - purge it!').

Lynata: I tend to agree pretty much 100% with your posts and take on the 40k-verse but not sure about your AoF model. It might work if you modify it to allow for a sort of mutually-re-inforcing group-think and group-belonging; which would explain why Untouchables, those with a certain amount of 'Corruption Points', and (some...) outcast Sisters can't perform these AoF (depending upon what weight you ascribe to different sources), however Pure and Pious they may be.

I'm leaning towards something like your model being the psychological underpinnings of what's going on (the fertile ground that makes it possible) but they really are channeling some kind of 'supernatural' power too (some of the things they do are genuinely impossible otherwise, plus the Living Saints).

Maybe the simplest, most elegant solution is that whatever psychic power the Emperor puts out is modulated in some way so that it is untainted by any warp-gribbliness; and pretty much only the Sisters are tuned correctly to be able to channel this power (think of different receivers picking up different radio and TV signals, or harmonic tunneling of power due to being on exactly the correct frequency).

This built upon the idea that lots of folks share that whatever the Emperor might have pretended to want and stand for in his Plan A, this was all undone by them pesky Space Marines so everything since is his hastily-cobbled-together Plan B (including worship of Him): It's redundant to talk about what he wanted since the entire universe changed with the HH and everything since is simple, pragmatic survival (hopefully) within the laws of the new universe.

Might break down as (by overall number of these 'miracles') something like:-

80% Luck, no-minded perfection of action etc;
15% Tapping into their own souls to power miracles (their souls of roughly the same 'clean' frequency as His meta-soul, so similar effects);
5% Channeling the Big-E's meta-soul pawaa.

Dunno....

He started existence as a normal child, but quickly found that he was not. As he grew so did his abilities as a psyker. He learned of the dangers facing mankind and finally during the Unifcation Wars 'came out in the open' to save humanity from themselves and the predations of chaos and xenos.

No mere 'man' lives to be roughly 36,000 to 38,000 years old before 'dying'. Only to live on for another 10,000+ years pyschically.

Aye, he's a god for sure. But he also has a definite distinctness in his qualities of godhood in the setting: Which (for my money) is how he can power AoF without there being any attendant 'stink of the warp' to these AoF. He found a way to be his own god with his own rules of godhood, clever (in some ways) and individualistic chap that he is.

Harriticus wrote:Really I don't get why the Emperor doesn't help the Space Marines that way. They are carrying on his true legacy and are his children. He shouldn't reward those who pray to him as a God, which is what he never intended.

The conclusion is pretty clear. Even if you don't want to draw to it.

tsz52 wrote:I don't think that SoB are really anti-psyker, but pro-'normal'-Sacred-human [...]

Yeah, that's definitively true - any kind of mutation is wrong to them, which is why they (and other members of the Ministorum) are even somewhat sceptical of Space Marines. That said, I would still say that psykers occupy a special hatred for them, simply because they are way more dangerous than your standard mutant, and a window to the cursed warp.

tsz52 wrote:It might work if you modify it to allow for a sort of mutually-re-inforcing group-think and group-belonging; which would explain why Untouchables, those with a certain amount of 'Corruption Points', and (some...) outcast Sisters can't perform these AoF (depending upon what weight you ascribe to different sources), however Pure and Pious they may be.

Mutually reinforcing group-thinking and a sense of belonging are definitively important factors, which is why I believe the monastic and isolationist lifestyle of the Sisters as well as the extreme sense of familiarity and loyalty play an important part in this. That said, I wouldn't even say that the Sisters alone are the only ones who can perform something that is regarded as a miracle ... there were a lot of Saints in Imperial history, people like Sebastian Thor or Confessor Dolan who definitively deserve some mention. It's just that the Sisters are the only group where these "miracles" show up with a certain regularity.

This way, it's also still entirely open what the actual source for these miracles is. I think it's actually pretty nice that the fluff allows for so many different interpretations. Makes it seem like the "miracles" attributed to people in real life.

Lynata wrote:I have to say, with the Living Saint I actually do believe it's psychic, too - if only because the Living Saint clearly isn't a normal human being, so normal rules do not apply..

They are also specifically not-psychic.

On the Living Saint, remember that there are things about 40k which aren't explained and left mysterious, either out of laziness or because it is intended to be unexplained (they might have the explanation but never see fit to push it forth).

IronSnake wrote:He started existence as a normal child, but quickly found that he was not. As he grew so did his abilities as a psyker. He learned of the dangers facing mankind and finally during the Unifcation Wars 'came out in the open' to save humanity from themselves and the predations of chaos and xenos.

No mere 'man' lives to be roughly 36,000 to 38,000 years old before 'dying'. Only to live on for another 10,000+ years pyschically.

but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

orkoidSTD wrote:but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

The beings known as the Gods of Chaos arose in that way; who's to say that the Emperor (or Gork and Mork, or the Gods of the Eldar, or the C'tan - all of whom at least claim to be gods) must be metaphysically identical?

To put it another way, what, in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, defines a god anyway?

English Assassin wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

The beings known as the Gods of Chaos arose in that way; who's to say that the Emperor (or Gork and Mork, or the Gods of the Eldar, or the C'tan - all of whom at least claim to be gods) must be metaphysically identical?

To put it another way, what, in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, defines a god anyway?

c'tan are star gods, ie; gods of the physical realm. im talking about WARP gods. the fact that gork and mork are reflections of the ork phsyche is mentioned in the codex. i cant comment on the eldar gods but it would stand to reason they arose the same way.

Correct. As others have also stated, that is how the Chaos Gods work.

Therefore, why do you think the Chaos Gods hate the Emperor so damn much? It's because he is his own God in his own way and is VASTLY powerfuly and does not NEED them. This makes the Chaos powers fearful and angry of him. Hence subterfuge rather than a direct assault worked well in the form of spiriting away his Primarchs and then ultimately taking control of Horus and taking the fight to him through the use of his own 'children'.

IronSnake wrote:Correct. As others have also stated, that is how the Chaos Gods work.

Therefore, why do you think the Chaos Gods hate the Emperor so damn much? It's because he is his own God in his own way and is VASTLY powerfuly and does not NEED them. This makes the Chaos powers fearful and angry of him. Hence subterfuge rather than a direct assault worked well in the form of spiriting away his Primarchs and then ultimately taking control of Horus and taking the fight to him through the use of his own 'children'.

there are a heck more reasons why the chaos gods hate the emperor. for one thing he stopped every human worshipping gods which, in one way or another, are all aspects of chaos. for another he allowed man to enter there realm forcefully and without their consent. if the government decided to build a freeway in the middle of your house how would you feel?

Melissia wrote:They are also specifically not-psychic.

Their hosts will not have been, but after "ascension" ...
It really isn't that specific. They are tested by the Inquisition, yes, but how these tests look is left completely in the open - and when they only look for the psyker gene it's clear that they won't find any trace of it, even though the body has long since become nothing more than a "hull" in possession of a benign warp spirit.

And I think I prefer this interpretation. I just like things to make sense, and as I firmly object the possibility of divine magic in 40k I see no other option.
Well, there is one other way, but even if it's direct influence of the Emperor Himself it'd still be a psychic phenomena.

That said, if it really is the Big E who pulls the strings of a Living Saint, this might be even more reasonable, as he could pull his powers away from the Saint at any time, at which point the Inquisition wouldn't find any psychic activity whatsoever, regardless of how they test. I only still like this theory a little less because it isn't nearly as grimdark as the "zombie warp angel" stuff.

orkoidSTD wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

The beings known as the Gods of Chaos arose in that way; who's to say that the Emperor (or Gork and Mork, or the Gods of the Eldar, or the C'tan - all of whom at least claim to be gods) must be metaphysically identical?

To put it another way, what, in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, defines a god anyway?

c'tan are star gods, ie; gods of the physical realm. im talking about WARP gods. the fact that gork and mork are reflections of the ork phsyche is mentioned in the codex. i cant comment on the eldar gods but it would stand to reason they arose the same way.

Which rather torpedoes your argument for why the Emperor could not be a god (whatever that actually means in the setting). God =/= Chaos God.

English Assassin wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but thats not how the 40k gods work! they are manifestations of a certain races beliefs or emotions.

The beings known as the Gods of Chaos arose in that way; who's to say that the Emperor (or Gork and Mork, or the Gods of the Eldar, or the C'tan - all of whom at least claim to be gods) must be metaphysically identical?

To put it another way, what, in the Warhammer 40,000 setting, defines a god anyway?

c'tan are star gods, ie; gods of the physical realm. im talking about WARP gods. the fact that gork and mork are reflections of the ork phsyche is mentioned in the codex. i cant comment on the eldar gods but it would stand to reason they arose the same way.

Which rather torpedoes your argument for why the Emperor could not be a god (whatever that actually means in the setting). God =/= Chaos God.

erm...
what does exactly? the fact i dont know about the eldar gods? because seeing that two other races with the most powerful warp signature work in EXACTLY the same way, its fair to make an assumption that they do too.

I would like to propose an alternative interpretation;

The Emperor is actually Malal, the God of the House Divided, the Evil Which Slays Evil, who has been manipulating mankind for the past ten thousand years to use them as pawns in his eternal war against the other Chaos Gods. To that end he has pretended to be a savior-figure while actually crippling the Imperium and Chaos both by setting up a never-ending war that will end with the annihilation of both sides. The Space Marines were designed specifically to be nigh-unstoppable, fascist zealots with no hesitation to kill anyone they saw as an obstacle; the Horus Heresy was created by him through cleverly playing upon the psychological weaknesses of the Primarchs; all of those 'stupid' things the Emperor did in relation to the Primarchs were deliberate, designed to turn them against the Imperium while simultaneously luring the other Chaos Gods into corrupting them and sparking off the Heresy, which both plunged the Imperium into a never-ending dark age and weakened the Ruinous Powers through the loss of the power they had invested in Horus. Once the Heresy was over, Malal abandoned the dying husk that he had used for so long, and now maintains the Imperium from the Warp because it has proven such an effective weapon. Eventually, of course, he will turn on it just as he turns on everyone and everything.

This being so, acts of faith and the amazing powers occasionally granted to Imperial saints are in reality manifestations of the power of Malal, disguised as 'miracles' so as to keep anyone from realizing what's really going on.

erm...
what does exactly? the fact i dont know about the eldar gods? because seeing that two other races with the most powerful warp signature work in EXACTLY the same way, its fair to make an assumption that they do too.

If the C'Tan are "gods of the physical realm", then the Emperor can be as well. No Warp-being required. He could also be both.

Psienesis wrote:

erm...
what does exactly? the fact i dont know about the eldar gods? because seeing that two other races with the most powerful warp signature work in EXACTLY the same way, its fair to make an assumption that they do too.

If the C'Tan are "gods of the physical realm", then the Emperor can be as well. No Warp-being required. He could also be both.

but the C'tan have no control over the warp. the emperor could not be C'tan and psker at the same time. also most of the C'tan where born in stars and i think even the emperor would have atough time with that

orkoidSTD wrote:but the C'tan have no control over the warp. the emperor could not be C'tan and psker at the same time.

It wasn't suggested that he's a "C'tan", but rather that he is a god of the physical universe. He could for example be a representation of the communion between the warp and realspace. It is suggested for example that eventually all humans would be psychic like the Eldar, and the Emperor was trying to create his own webways.

There are varying levels of "godhood". The Emperor is quite clearly a unique God. He does not fit into any molds. Nor does he have to.

Also the Emperor could very well represent the warp before it was corrupted by the awakening of the first chaos god (Khorne if I recall correctly).

IronSnake wrote:There are varying levels of "godhood". The Emperor is quite clearly a unique God. He does not fit into any molds. Nor does he have to.

Why should the carriongod be unique? We know pretty well what he is, a conglomerate of human psykersouls. If he is a god at all ( which can be doubted, after all there is very little hard evidence besides imperial propaganda and the wishful thinking of those who experienced "miracles" ) and not just a halfdead human psyker which rots on top of a golden throne, then
he would be just like any other warp entity, be it daemon or god. His miracles would be achieved by manipulating the vast energies of the warp, just like the other chaosgods do.

Melissia wrote:Also the Emperor could very well represent the warp before it was corrupted by the awakening of the first chaos god (Khorne if I recall correctly).

Yes that is entirely possible too.

English Assassin wrote:
The White Dwarf article actually only states that the Emperor chastised Lorgar for wasting time worshipping him rather than getting on with the Great Crusade, not for worshipping him per se. The Emperor's character as a secular humanist was quite definitely not established before 2006's Horus Rising.

Actually the article says the Emperor "rebuked Lorgar's shows of devotion" as well as that he was "wasting precious time and resources". Seems like we're splitting hairs here. And it was not 2006's Horus Rising. 2005's Visions of Darkness says "He had long rejected claims of his own divinity", tells Lorgar to "renounce his belief the Emperor was divine", and "I am no god, and have no desire for the multitudes to see me as one". So we know that by the time Sabertooth had begun publishing their Horus Heresy card game (2003), the idea of a divinity refusing Emperor was in existence. This only further reinforces the idea that 2002's article existed in a timeline that had already determined the same. At the very best, these projects were occurring simultaneously and the Acts of Faith slipped by as a continuity checking error, but the more probable response comes back to "GW didn't care that it made no sense". After all, Codex Witch Hunters was just a collection of rules for models that already existed, GW had no real intention of actually bothering with, but needed rules for the radically different 3rd Edition system.

You continue to see an error where none needs to exist. The Acts of Faith have never been explicitly stated to be the product of some sort of divine power, and I have never seen them this way, not since the very first day I held the Codex in my hands.

Acts of Faith work either as a psychic phenomenon controlled by the Emperor Himself or simply as a "mind over matter" kind of deal resulting out of the Sisters' uniquely altruistic devotion to their cause. What it is exactly remains open for interpretation, but I fail to see why you would try to denounce them as a "continuity error".

Especially since this "continuity error" already existed since the Chapter Approved list before the Witch Hunter Codex and proves pretty consistent, what with also having founds its way into the 5E Minidex.

If the Sisters' Acts of Faith were truly about "divine intervention", then their success would hardly depend on their personal morale, would it? They would simply happen.

[EDIT: Lynata edited and added whilst I was typing, so this post doesn't follow that one too well now, and with repetition. I'll let it stand as is though, to avoid further confusion.]

Someone mentioned this timeline inconsistency in another thread the other day but I wasn't a member then.

Don't forget that the first time that AoF were officially presented for TT use wasn't CWH but was the 2001 Chapter Approved [the best version of SoB of all for my money]... IIRC it was new to that book and not first printed in WD, but if it was in WD before then that takes the AoF idea further back in time.

Can't get to my 2001 Chapter Approved at the moment, but if anyone can get to theirs then that might shed some light on how AoF work, from their description. I remember WD articles at the time describing how Sisters could literally rend ceramite apart with their bare hands and such, such was the power of their faith - this isn't some martial artist punching through bricks or lucky hits finding weak spots in armour: the articles were totally categorical about this.

And again, re the Lorgar thing: There is no inconsistency. What the Emperor may have wanted pre being not-quite-killed is irrelevant to the metaphysical 'realities' that resulted from that act.

Plan A: Religion sub-optimal, don't want to be worshipped, there is a better way.

Big E struck down, half the SM Legions rebelling and massively empowering Chaos, Webway plan wrecked... rats!:-

Plan B: Of what's left now that the Space Marines have had their fun... religion is the best remaining option... worship me folks... sigh....

Your refusal to admit the error does not mean one does not exist.

Your "interpretation" of the Acts of Faith is novel, but doesn't fly. The Acts of Faith very specifically represent divine intervention alone in many instances. There is no way to "believe" better luck, or accuracy, or whatever, lol. How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors? How do you believe the ability to re-roll wounds? You don't. Your weapons either do damage or they don't. You either know how to shoot, or you don't. Really believing you know how to shoot won't make you better, lol. And what does it have to do with morale? In the 5th codex, you roll a die to generate Faith Points, and you roll a die with bonuses to make them work.

"Guided by the will of the Emperor, the Retributors' shots shatter their enemies armor with ease." That's fairly explicit, but even the most die hard arguer of semantics has to admit that somehow, their "faith" conjures up the ability for their ammunition to have a higher capacity for damage, something that cannot be "believed" and cannot reasonably attributed to luck.

From Codex: Witch Hunters" "Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose"

b: (2) : a perceptible, outward, or visible expression d : an occult phenomenon It really doesn't get much more explicit than that.

Your refusal to acknowledge it simply represents a willingness to hand wave, but your explanations come up short in every department when it comes to some kind of fluff congruous rationalization. You're willing to hand wave things a bit more, because otherwise exists the necessity for denouncing a very core concept of your chosen army. However, your refusal to acknowledge does not equate to the absence of said language and inference.


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tsz52 wrote:Don't forget that the first time that AoF were officially presented for TT use wasn't CWH but was the 2001 Chapter Approved [the best version of SoB of all for my money]... IIRC it was new to that book and not first printed in WD, but if it was in WD before then that takes the AoF idea further back in time.

This is irrelevant though. Whether or not the Acts of Faith predated the decision to run with an "Emperor hated being worshiped as a god", they continued to exist after it, thus becoming incongruous with the fluff. Even if it made sense in Chapter Approved, it was no longer sensible in Codex: Witch Hunters, and certainly not in the latest WD Codex. Further reinforcing the "GW doesn't care if it makes sense or not" explanation over all others.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors?

THe same way I believe rending for snipers. The bolts somehow manage to hit critical areas in armor.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe the ability to re-roll wounds?

Because it represents the abstract concept of an increased likelihood of causing a debilitating wound.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your weapons either do damage or they don't.

False. One can cause a wound that is insufficient to incapacitate the enemy, for example. The enemy is bloodied but unbroken and still attacking. This is why space marines have increased toughness.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You either know how to shoot, or you don't.

False. This directly contradicts differing ballistics skills scores.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Really believing you know how to shoot won't make you better

Confidence can help calm one's aim. compared to nervousness.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And what does it have to do with morale?

See the codices prior to fifth edition. If you're going to be pulling things from multiple editions, actually read said editions.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:"Guided by the will of the Emperor, the Retributors' shots shatter their enemies armor with ease." That's fairly explicit, but even the most die hard arguer of semantics has to admit that somehow, their "faith" conjures up the ability for their ammunition to have a higher capacity for damage, something that cannot be "believed" and cannot reasonably attributed to luck.

Why not? It could just be interpreted as that being THEIR belief on what happened.

Codices aren't neutral sources of information.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:From Codex: Witch Hunters" "Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose"

That is what the Sisters and the Imperium believes yes. I doubt non-Imperials believe it.

Veteran Sergeant: Sorry man but the Lorgar thing you're referring to is in relation to pre-/during-HH events.

My point is that the HH (and particularly the Emperor being struck down) flicked a cosmic metaphysical switch; it's effectively two separate universes with a demarkation at that point, so what the Emperor wanted before that (within that previous metaphysical reality) and what he was lumbered with in terms of least-worst evil/making the best of a bad job (within that new metaphysical reality) are as a result of different realities. So there's no inconsistency.

You're stood on the mid-point of a bridge going East-West and profoundly desire to go East and tell everybody that. Space Marines irrevocably destroy the bridge's Eastern half... so you're only left with sub-optimal, arduous, horrible West as an option, however much you might hate and resent that path.

It's not inconsistency but a changed reality that you have to adapt to... there's no 'yebbut you said that East was better' if there's no longer an Eastern half and only a Western one.

Lorgar was pre-bridge-trashing; Imperial Cult/Creed and AoF etc are post-bridge-trashing.

OK, Euphrati Keeler's on the cusp of both realities but I'll get into that later... and try to explain my model a bit better.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors?

This line of reasoning and arguing is so much beside the point its painfull to read. Background is not always tied into rules, and as rules are they completely miss the point of the discussion. The origin of the Being we are discussing is not in the rules, so why use them as an argument? its like saying that Jesus couldn't exist because he would have to roll a 13+ on 2d6. come on people.

As for the rest of the duscussion its really interesting to see peoples reactions. As for the whole "sisters are ignorant psykers" theory i ask you this: do they really have to be the cause of their own miracles? If the emperor does have some kind of power over them would it not be plausible for them simply having some kind of link to his divinity and thereby producing miracles?

Simply blowing it all off-track by saying its Malal, Tzeentch or some other reason is pretty pointless. we know the cult of the emperor would easily be able to conjure some kind of effects simply by existing, so why does it have to be a chaos god, or even one of the big ones? im myself a chaos fanboy but i cant say im taken to the idea that their the cause of everything thats mysterious or unexplained. wouldn´t that be boring?

Melissia wrote: The bolts somehow manage to hit critical areas in armor.

How?

Because it represents the abstract concept of an increased likelihood of causing a debilitating wound.

How?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your weapons either do damage or they don't.

False. One can cause a wound that is insufficient to incapacitate the enemy, for example. The enemy is bloodied but unbroken and still attacking. This is why space marines have increased toughness.

Your answer does not address the question posed.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You either know how to shoot, or you don't.

False. This directly contradicts differing ballistics skills scores.

Your answer does not address the question posed.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Really believing you know how to shoot won't make you better

Confidence can help calm one's aim. compared to nervousness.

But it isn't confidence in ability, it's confidence in some kind of divine assistance. Ask the jihadis in Iraq how well "Insha'Allah" worked for them I was a weapons trainer in the military, both at the primary and advanced levels. The biggest problem cases we had came from people who were convinced they knew how to shoot. You either do, or you don't. Believing that God will help you shoot won't make you a better shooter, no matter how good you think you are.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And what does it have to do with morale?

See the codices prior to fifth edition. If you're going to be pulling things from multiple editions, actually read said editions.

I've already shown I can quote and source every edition of the Codex. You cannot use an old edition to disprove the most recent one.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:"Guided by the will of the Emperor, the Retributors' shots shatter their enemies armor with ease." That's fairly explicit, but even the most die hard arguer of semantics has to admit that somehow, their "faith" conjures up the ability for their ammunition to have a higher capacity for damage, something that cannot be "believed" and cannot reasonably attributed to luck.

Why not? It could just be interpreted as that being THEIR belief on what happened.

But it DID happen. That's what you're missing. Somehow, the intended effect happened. Again, I come back to the question you cannot answer: How?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:From Codex: Witch Hunters" "Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose"

That is what the Sisters and the Imperium believes yes. I doubt non-Imperials believe it.

Again, it comes back to the fact that no matter how anyone in-universe believes it, it does happen. It isn't a matter of interpretation. It's entirely irrelevant what the Sisters or anybody else thinks happened. It does happen. Again: How?


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tarnish wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors?

This line of reasoning and arguing is so much beside the point its painfull to read. Background is not always tied into rules, and as rules are they completely miss the point of the discussion.

Then don't argue it's possible in the fluff. I certainly wasn't. Others are arguing that, pay attention. I originally said in very plain terms, the rules exist because Games Workshop doesn't care that they don't make sense. Try to get on the same page as the rest of us before you talk about what is, or isn't painful to read. You know what is painful to read? You walking into the middle of this argument, lost like Donny from The Big Lebowski.

Melissia wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but the C'tan have no control over the warp. the emperor could not be C'tan and psker at the same time.

It wasn't suggested that he's a "C'tan", but rather that he is a god of the physical universe. He could for example be a representation of the communion between the warp and realspace. It is suggested for example that eventually all humans would be psychic like the Eldar, and the Emperor was trying to create his own webways.

The chaos gods are in effect trapped by the imaterium and are basically created by the swirling emotions of the warp. The C`tan are more accurately free floating space born entities that feed off of stars. They were unable to interact with the physical world without the intervention of the necrontyr who gave them physical bodies at which point they became immensely powerful and in effect gods. The ork gods gork and mork are again similar to the chaos gods, but instead of being a collection of emotions they are representations of the ork psyche and thus have a more distinct form and character. Finally, the eldar gods existed both in the warp and outside of it. The avatar of khain is basically using one of the broken shads of the eldar war god and an host to allow him to become real / whole again.

Remember in the 40K setting the term god is very loose. There are many things that are attributed the name god, but all of them can be killed (even the chaos gods, its just trickier) and have their own properties. The emperor of mankind fits the definition of god pretty well actually. far better than the eldar gods or the c`tan.

Regarding acts of faith.
Could it be possible that although the sisters are clearly not psychic, their uniformity of will makes them as a whole partially psychic. Think of it like tyranid synapse or how multiple psychers getting together exponentially increases their power. A normal human has an effect on the warp, it is small but an effect none the less. Now most humans are chaotic, they have a mass of conflicting and constantly fluctuating emotions. However, the sisters are all focused and believing the very same thing. An example would be that while a troop of guardsmen might claim the emperor protects, some will doubt, some will be full of fear of death, some will be angry and a whole bunch of other emotions. However when sisters say that, they believe it 100%, each and every one of them without wavering.

As such, perhaps they create a miniature shadow of the warp. This would explain why they seem to be protected by an anti-psycher bubble while not being pariahs or blanks as the tyranid shadow of the warp also strongly disrupts psycher abilities. Additionally, it would explain how they manage to pull off what are effectively very very minor powers.Also the way that it does not always work could be because their faith at any given point is not strong enough, not uniform enough to manifest this minor bubble.

One problem with the theory that the miracles are really just perceived miracles and basically luck is that luck does not act like an anti-psycher shield. Given that no psychic powers work on them, even beneficial ones, would imply that something else is effectively protecting them. Still the luck theory is a good one.

The Emperor actually was a warp entity before He was reborn. If you remember His origins, thousands of shamans committed mass suicide to fuse their souls in the warp. This is the 'God-Emperor', who was then born into a Human body, becoming the 'Emperor'. IMO, ever since He was confined to the Throne, He has become partially the 'God-Emperor' again, although this isn't what He originally planned.

In any case, 40k gods are gods in the traditional sense; they're not omnipotent like God, but are gods - embodiments or focuses of power/emotions in reality (C'tan), the warp (Chaos Powers), or both (the Emperor). Only in the Emperor's case, He's the embodiment of all the shamans' power, both sum and product.

Veteran Sergeant: Your arguing the nature of miracles as if the details make them plausible. i cant even begin to say whats wrong with your logic but surely i would be wasting my time when your reply to my input is phrased like this. Out of the discussion, continue to drag it down if you will.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your refusal to admit the error does not mean one does not exist.

Neither does your refusal to admit that there does not have to be an error automatically mean there is one.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How do you believe in Rending for the weapons of the Retributors? How do you believe the ability to re-roll wounds? You don't. Your weapons either do damage or they don't.

I've already gone over this. Since you did not respond to my earlier explanations I'm going to assume you either did not see that reply or ignored it on purpose. Doesn't change that it remains a matter of interpretation, though - a weapon's accuracy, which directly affects the level of damage, is affected by the user. And especially in melee, "rerolling wounds" means nothing other than a bonus to the ferocity of the attack. I bet I can find you Marine and maybe even Guard units who have similar rules.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And what does it have to do with morale? In the 5th codex, you roll a die to generate Faith Points, and you roll a die with bonuses to make them work.

And the "bonuses to make them work" clearly depend on squad morale. They are directly affected by friendly losses as well as the presence of inspiring leaders. How does that even make sense when you're suggesthing stuff like that would come from a Chaos god?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:"Guided by the will of the Emperor, the Retributors' shots shatter their enemies armor with ease." That's fairly explicit, but even the most die hard arguer of semantics has to admit that somehow, their "faith" conjures up the ability for their ammunition to have a higher capacity for damage, something that cannot be "believed" and cannot reasonably attributed to luck.

This is how it looks to the untrained eye, which is obviously why many people in the setting describe it as miraculous. Analyzing it, however, we see that this effect merely means "+Rending", which can just as well be interpreted by the Sister abandoning personal safety and firing discipline by stepping out in the open and unleashing a hail of shells resulting in more rounds hitting the target than during a normal attack. A long shot, but still more reasonable than the alternative. And something we have seen in a lot of action movies, mind you.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:From Codex: Witch Hunters" "Acts of Faith are a manifestation of the Emperor's divine purpose"

And the Emperor's "divine purpose" is the Imperial Creed, the cause the Sisters have pledged their lives to. This is hardly supernatural, it's plain old fanaticism.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your refusal to acknowledge it simply represents a willingness to hand wave [...]

Yup, because "hand waving" is necessary in 40k in a lot of departments, for a lot of armies. I enjoy finding reasonable "excuses" for studio fluff rather than ripping it apart, for if we'd do the latter, you wouldn't be left with much of a setting - technology would stop making sense, Marines would stop making sense, the entire way the Imperium works would stop making sense. But I like things making sense, so I make things fit. And it's not very hard to do, even without going against what had been written before.

SylvanaSekNadin wrote:

Melissia wrote:

orkoidSTD wrote:but the C'tan have no control over the warp. the emperor could not be C'tan and psker at the same time.

It wasn't suggested that he's a "C'tan", but rather that he is a god of the physical universe. He could for example be a representation of the communion between the warp and realspace. It is suggested for example that eventually all humans would be psychic like the Eldar, and the Emperor was trying to create his own webways.

The chaos gods are in effect trapped by the imaterium and are basically created by the swirling emotions of the warp. The C`tan are more accurately free floating space born entities that feed off of stars. They were unable to interact with the physical world without the intervention of the necrontyr who gave them physical bodies at which point they became immensely powerful and in effect gods. The ork gods gork and mork are again similar to the chaos gods, but instead of being a collection of emotions they are representations of the ork psyche and thus have a more distinct form and character. Finally, the eldar gods existed both in the warp and outside of it. The avatar of khain is basically using one of the broken shads of the eldar war god and an host to allow him to become real / whole again.

Remember in the 40K setting the term god is very loose. There are many things that are attributed the name god, but all of them can be killed (even the chaos gods, its just trickier) and have their own properties. The emperor of mankind fits the definition of god pretty well actually. far better than the eldar gods or the c`tan.

im pretty sure the c'tan have a good deal of interaction with the physical world, otherwise how would they contact the necrontyr? the eldar gods cannot exist outside of the warp, this is proven when khaine is driven into the material world, which then shatters him into a thousand pieces. i see no real difference for the orks n the chaos gods, allthough as you say, the ork physce is very different to most races so their gods are different.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:How?

Skill, usually. C:WH states that Sisters have a martial art which combines prayer and martial prowess that allows them to accomplish feats which are miraculous to the unschooled. Why, then, is it so surprising that prayer helps them increase their skill?

The answer is that it is not actually that surprising.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your answer does not address the question posed.

Keep telling yourself that, it's cute.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Your answer does not address the question posed.

Keep telling yourself that, it's cute.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:But it isn't confidence in ability, it's confidence in some kind of divine assistance.

The effect is the same in 40k.

Keep in midn that Sisters ARE good at shooting. Base shooting skill for a Sister starts at Space Marine level and goes up from there.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You either do, or you don't.

Yeah, you still don't know what the hell you're talking about. Just because someone knows how to shoot doesn't mean they're as good at it as someone else.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I've already shown I can quote and source every edition of the Codex.

Too bad you haven't actually bothered to read them then.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:it does happen. It isn't a matter of interpretation. It's entirely irrelevant what the Sisters or anybody else thinks happened. It does happen. Again: How?

I already explained several potential theories. That you are unwilling to read or think for yourself doesn't bother me.



I doubt we're ever going to agree ont his, VS. You aren't apparently willing to accept even the possibility that there is a way to logically come to any other conclusion, which even I'm willing to do...

The Emperor is a psyker with god-like powers whose warp presence is extremely powerful. Acts of Faith, if powered by the Emperor, would then be basically warp powers.

...which is a logic problem, because you occasionally encounter fluff that suggests or states that miracles and faith-based powers are not warp-based at all, so for this to be true there would need to be some other, new 'force' in 40k, completely distinct from real physics and the warp.

So what we have here is the writers just not agreeing and/or working themselves into yet another corner. It's another one of those situations where there's temptation in some to say "well, it's canon, so for it to make sense in my head I'm going to build arguments around it, logic be damned".

Intelligent and careful speculation is the more fun approach.

Ronin-Sage wrote:you occasionally encounter fluff that suggests or states that miracles and faith-based powers are not warp-based at all

Not "occasionally".

"Consistently" and "always" are the accurate terms here.

Aye, it's all a matter of interpretations. There is little difference between said writers and us gamers - the people of both groups have their own opinions and preferences, and given the way the franchise is run everybody is free to pursue his own vision. This only becomes a problem when the fans treat any product with the 40k label like some kind of bible and expect consistency between the various works, as I once did.

For example, looking at the Blood of Martyrs book from FFG, its Faith Talents are indeed so powerful and clearly supernatural that one cannot possibly argue them away as being "just" a product of the Sisters' training and dedication (i.e. the "mind over matter" concept) - and this was one of the criticisms voiced by the players, too: that it wasn't as "vague" as the Acts of Faith in the WH Codex anymore.

There's just so many ways to tackle this, it all boils down to the individual perspective on the setting, influenced by both personal preferences as well as what kind of material one has read before. And this goes for all of 40k ... imagine the disappointment you'd have if your first contact with the Space Marines was the Deathwatch RPG or various BL Marine novels, and then you go and play them in GW's Inquisitor game or look at their fluff in the studio material, or the few novels that actually paint them in a less invincible way. Not to mention the TT itself.

Lynata, the "acts of faith aren't psychic powers" is consistent across all editions and not contradicted by other lore. Probably one of the only pieces of lore that can say that.

Comes with Sisters not having much lore to begin with no doubt.

Well, I do not recall having read a studio source that outright states that AoF are specifically and clearly not psychic - only that the Shield of Faith works against psychic powes, and not even reliably. If one would wish to interpret this in such a manner, the approach that the Emperor is just too powerful a psyker, or that the Sisters' faith "attunes" themselves to Him (more reasonable, as this would take their morale into account), it would be a viable theory not violating the fluff.

Not that I'm suggesting this. I like the mind-over-matter idea more and personally believe that it does make more sense. Just saying there's room for speculation and personal preference, 's all.

Yo pienso que it is a combination of the Emperor, and the minimal, passive psychic essence of humans, giving physical shape by the faith of the sisters.

Lynata wrote:Well, I do not recall having read a studio source that outright states that AoF are specifically and clearly not psychic

Aside from every single source that mentioned acts of faith anyway.

Lynata wrote:Well, I do not recall having read a studio source that outright states that AoF are specifically and clearly not psychic

If you are going to argue on a fluff issue, at least read the fluff, and not your own version of it.

By i think what your intending to say that there's no room for the extraordinary simply happening out of supposed nothing without some established power behind it that been defined in detail.
Is this because its a scifi setting that you feel has no room for faith actually being real or is it more a question of not being able to accept something merely because its origin is vaguely portrayed? Certainly not every facet of reality needs to conform to documented material to be possible? But if that's the case then we might just not have been told the full story and that bothers the crap out of you guys.

Tarnish: I don't think that folks are bothered by not being told the full story; it's that open-ness and hints and ambiguity in the setting that is appealing for those who like to tell their own stories, rather than be dictated to (as Lynata's already stated a few times).

Good fodder for your own narratives, debate, intellectual exercise and craic. Sometimes it is a bit more important to have a solid theory for how these things work, though, like if you're writing a tale and want to respect the lore/fans, or if it's important from an RPG PoV or something (or you're just very logically minded, and attempting to suspend disbelief).

If it's for debate purposes then the best theory/model (for that purpose) is the one that accounts for the maximum number of described phenomena - ideally all of them, across all sources. That's why I favour the attuned/resonant energy transfer model, with Emprah-pawaa being distinct in nature since it doesn't have the chaotic attributes of the Warp, nor (under extreme examination) any 'foul warp-stench'.

Maybe it's a different frequency of something broadly similar to the warp (which empirically exists in the setting), or Trek-particle of the week, or the methods of use and examination alter the perceived result (like the photon particle/wave slit experiments). It also accounts for different types of receivers (psykers, Untouchables, not properly attuned Sisters) not being able to channel that energy, and the occasional non-Sister but righteous and pious humie being able to tap into that power in dire straits, when doing His good work.

Again, this accounts for the few but notable upper-end miracles described, though most AoF are most likely Lynata's model, and the divide between both will be fuzzy.

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tsz52 wrote:Tarnish: I don't think that folks are bothered by not being told the full story; it's that open-ness and hints and ambiguity in the setting that is appealing for those who like to tell their own stories, rather than be dictated to (as Lynata's already stated a few times).

I totally get where your coming from and i get your view, but most of the needed evidence to fully "get" what this is about simply is not there, and quite a few people in this thread act like it is.
This however was not why i opened up the subject yet again, but to simply get peoples views in a open and constructive setting. its too bad that its turned into a partial - i-know-better-and-your-all-morons slugfest as usual and i was really hoping to avoid that.

You know what's awesome? Discussing the fictional background of this game of toy soldiers without throwing a temper tantrum when someone has a different point of view to our own.

How about we try to do that, rather than continue down a road that will see people taking a holiday from the site to give them time to re-evaluate just how seriously they're taking all of this?

Just ignore the flame-baiting and don't do any yourselves...


AT ANY RATE...

The facts are thus:

1: The "miracles" of the Sisters of Battle are not psychic. That is stated consistently and repeatedly throughout the history of Sisters lore, from second edition to fifth, and including the FFG roleplaying system.

2: C:WH says that the miracles are obtained through their unique way of war which combines martial prowess and prayer, producing results which appear miraculous to the unschooled. This is the best description given for the "powers" so far, essentially making it so that the miracles are something that can be trained in to a person.

3: Older (2nd-3rd edition) lore have stated that even LIving Saints, whom are literally living bastions of miracle-happenings, are not psychic. As this is the only direct statements on Living Saints that I know of, this is what I go off of.


Based on this, I see three interpretations:

1: Sisters obtain their "powers" through their unique martial arts. They aren't truly miraculous so much as Sisters having a unique insight on the universe and being able to do things that others without this insight cannot do. Basically, their kung fu is greater than yours. This fits most within the canon of the codices, but is not very believable for some people. It is also possible that others have stumbled upon the same insight, or have done so via a different means (perhaps Eldar have done so in a limited fashion, for example, through their aspect warriors?).

2: The miracles are indeed from the Emperor, but the Emperor HImself is a remnant of a time when the warp was not corrupted by chaos, and therefor cannot be detected by normal means which are focused around detecting evidence of chaos. Given that FFG has released a special Primaris Psyker power which allows them to use powers that are "invisible" to detection of psychic powers, it is plausible that the Emperor may simply be a master of this form of power. However this isn't necessarily supported by the core lore, IE the codices and rulebooks, unless you go all the way back to the shaman description of the Emperor's creation back in rogue trader.

3: The miracles are of some other not-yet-described power source which the Emperor or the Sisters draw upon, the supposed "divine" power which is not psychic in nature. This escapes the problems of the first theory in believability for some people, but causes more problems in believability for others. It works off the fact that the C'tan are different from the Chaos Gods, offering the idea that there are multiple types of deities in the 40k milky way galaxy, and that the Emperor is a third as-yet unexplained type..

tarnish wrote:If you are going to argue on a fluff issue, at least read the fluff, and not your own version of it.

If you are going to argue an opinion of mine, at least quote what you think contradicts it and don't just go "nu-uh". It is very well possibly that I may have simply missed something or just forgotten it, but if so, I would appreciate a reference and not just another opinion. I pride myself on my extensive collection of fluff about the Sisters - extending far beyond just the Codices - so a claim that I "didn't bother to read up" does feel a bit insulting.

tarnish wrote:By i think what your intending to say that there's no room for the extraordinary simply happening out of supposed nothing without some established power behind it that been defined in detail.
Is this because its a scifi setting that you feel has no room for faith actually being real or is it more a question of not being able to accept something merely because its origin is vaguely portrayed?

Hmm, I think it's because it is a sci-fi setting, yeah. Even "magic" and demons have been sort-of explained by the Warp, so my personal expectations are a tad higher than in some high fantasy setting where stuff "just is". Especially since, and here Veteran Sergeant is very much correct, this would truly make the Sisters the odd group out, if they'd be the one and only thing in the entire setting having access to "divine magic".

Not saying it's not possible, but it certainly isn't an "explanation" favored by me. I see the "mind over matter" theory working just fine, so that's the interpretation I'm personally rolling with. The vagueness and ambiguity certainly allows for it to work, at least in my eyes.

Lynata wrote:]Hmm, I think it's because it is a sci-fi setting, yeah. Even "magic" and demons have been sort-of explained by the Warp, so my personal expectations are a tad higher than in some high fantasy setting where stuff "just is". Especially since, and here Veteran Sergeant is very much correct, this would truly make the Sisters the odd group out, if they'd be the one and only thing in the entire setting having access to "divine magic".

Not saying it's not possible, but it certainly isn't an "explanation" favored by me. I see the "mind over matter" theory working just fine, so that's the interpretation I'm personally rolling with. The vagueness and ambiguity certainly allows for it to work, at least in my eyes.

To be fair, the divine is far more common in 40k then whats visible in the rules and armylists from said game. You hear about saints and entire planets devoted to worship, but since there's no organ to dissect and study miracles that we know of (or they might simply be a secret order in the Ecclesiarchy, which they probably would have quite a few of) much of it would be viewed as downright heresy if it was documented in a scientific manner. Who is to say how rare acts of faith are in the common man? i know their not in the rules, but it would be quite obscure if they where right? we would have one-use abilities all over the place representing divine intervention and it would draw attention away from the actual basis of the army in question.

Aye, I take it that 'the divine' is in play whenever a 'blunt' character (in one of the novels usually) does something 'impossible'. It's that elegance of theory in order to suspend disbelief thing again. You can either roll your eyes and dismiss each and every one of these occurrences as cartoon heroism cranked up to 11 and plot armour, or seek an explanation that accounts for them, realistically within the setting's rules.

They're grains far too fine to be represented at the level of the 40k TT (though not at the DH level, where burning fudged 'Fate' Points can accomplish similar things) but it'd be something like:-

Righteous Human: Applies to all loyalist human [Astartes is debatable*] models, who aren't Untouchables [or Psykers, debatably*]. Any roll to hit of a 6 can be re-rolled. On a re-roll of 6 it can be re-rolled again. [Repeat however many times you think realistic given the occasional 'uber-crits' in the novels.] The attack counts as five hits, STR 10, AP 1. This does not count as a psychic ability in any way.

Something like that. That's the Guardsman one-shotting a Chaos Dreadnought with his lasgun etc. You'd have an ascending scale of Awesomeness Table depending upon how many times that 6 comes up as a 6 again. You'd give modifiers to Ecclesiarchy models and Commissars (thus not needing separate AoF for SoB - it'd all be unified). I'm not suggesting that anyone would or should ever do this (so haven't really fleshed the idea out - it's pretty throw-away) but if the TT mechanics fit the fluff then there'd be something like that going on.

Such occurences are common enough in the fluff that they're accepted phenomena ('The Emperor Protects!') and have been extremely rigorously tested for warp taint, with none found.

This might be:-

1 A failure in understanding and testing apparatus. Like the different results photons give in the slit experiments, or like earlier scientific understanding considered light and heat as very distinct, but higher level knowledge was necessary to lump them all together (with other wavelengths with other properties) as electromagnetic radiation. Maybe the Eldar would say 'Tssk, humans with their artificial divisions and binary oppositions... 'photons' are simply 'waveparticles' and 'the divine power' simply a lower [or higher] frequency of what you call 'the Warp', and all is truly one, these labels meaningless and counter-productive to true understanding.'

So the Emprah-field seems different because it's the equivalent of microwaves or gammas in a backwards Imperium that can only measure IR, 'visible' light and near UV.

2 It actually is distinct in some way, since it seems to have different properties from regular Warp power. It trades the raw power and unpredictability (and danger) of Warp power for subtlety and stability (and safety). If you don't want to invoke a distinct power field for this ['the divine', which I would also avoid personally, since it's better to explain using what's there already), then He simply filters and modulates the Warp in order to tame it and make it accessible to His devout 'blunts', filtering out the perilous stuff.

You could look to the Astronomicon as a model to bear this out, of his modus operandi: it's powered by psykers and the Warp but he modulates the signal for stability - he takes the Chaos out and creates a psychic phenomenon that is clean, safe and usable. Maybe it's the side-bands/-lobes of this that humies can occasionally tap into in extremis and if they're properly tuned to Him?

Accounts for everything [?] and doesn't create anything new.

[BTW if I seem a bit full-on about this it's because I'm writing a 40k tale and take a professional pride in getting stuff right, my main character is both Inquisitive and pious and so will need a theory for this herself, and deep-immersion is the only way to write (anything worth a damn) - like 'the method' in acting but moreso... plus it's enjoyable of itself just for the craic.]

*EDIT: I'd say not: Astartes are still holding the incorrect (especially 'now') pre-HH metaphysical worldview in a post-HH universe with different metaphysical laws... though a Chapter that devoutly followed the Imperial Creed could (are there any?); psykers have corrupted themselves too much by channeling the Warp that they've muddied their antennae too much to channel His modulated frequency [though I haven't come across anything - even in DH - that states that psykers can't use AoF (yes it would be highly unlikely that a psyker would make it through the Schola and then the convent to be able to reach that point of using AoF, but that isn't the same as is impossible, in the same way that it's impossible for Untouchables, as stated)].

Melissia wrote:

2: The miracles are indeed from the Emperor, but the Emperor HImself is a remnant of a time when the warp was not corrupted by chaos, and therefor cannot be detected by normal means which are focused around detecting evidence of chaos. Given that FFG has released a special Primaris Psyker power which allows them to use powers that are "invisible" to detection of psychic powers, it is plausible that the Emperor may simply be a master of this form of power. However this isn't necessarily supported by the core lore, IE the codices and rulebooks, unless you go all the way back to the shaman description of the Emperor's creation back in rogue trader.

This point I agree with.

One of the ways the various Warhammer worlds/universes break from traditional fantasy settings is that the underlying dichotomy providing the basis of conflict is that of Order v. Chaos instead of the typical Good v. Evil. In the old Warhammer Fantasy RPG (it's not 40k but 40k is basically WHFB in space), they had a small section detailing the "Gods of Law" - the anti-thesis of the Chaos Gods. These are Warp gods that are counter to everything Chaos represents and don't seek any kind of worship. The Emperor is in essence one of these; parallels can also be drawn to Sigmar, but Sigmar isn't a reincarnation of thousands of paleolithic shaman's souls who cast themselves into the Warp to be reborn as some immensely powerful psyker-sorceror-warrior-god-king. The Emperors birth can be likened to that of Slaanesh; it required the sacrifice of many souls devoted to a singular purpose. However, unlike Slaanesh, it wasn't due to over-indulgence of selfish depravity that reached critical mass and involuntarily sucked up the souls of the majority of a civilization. It was a conscious decision to create something greater than themselves to watch over the emerging human species who were still struggling to attain a secure foothold in the world. The God-Emperor is the Warp embodiment of the desire for Order, for Civilization, for Law.

If we suppose that the Emperor is a force of Law, then manifestations of his power wouldn't register as Chaos. The Acts of Faith that the SoB (it took me a while not to read that as Sons of Batman) perform would be similar to a Chaos god granting gifts to their followers when called upon. In the same vein the Living Saints would be similar to Demon Princes. These miracles wouldn't be detectable as "the Warp as known" because the power being used is of the opposite nature (not to mention typically much more subtle than the gifts of the Chaos gods or the actions of a psyker).

All this is completely unsupported by any sort of canonical 40k information, and I'm not even sure of the "Gods of Law" are canon in the WHFB world anymore. The ever-changing Warp may have changed since I last got my information about it.

Acts of Faith being "Mind-over-Matter" are equally plausible, the prayers and rituals being a tool to focus yourself, much like the pre-game rituals of many atheletes, or other focusing techniques used by people to improve performance. However in a world where there is a very real metaphysical realm where humanity is locked in a life and death struggle with the forces of Chaos I find the idea of an Emprah-field to be more thematically pleasing. But that's just my own opinion.

To be fair, WHFRP/WHFB did not originate the idea of the Gods of Law. In fact, everything about the Chaos vs Law thing (down to the very symbols they use) originate with Michael Moorecock and his Eternal Champion series of novels (including the eight-pointed star).

CF:

Elric the Melnibonean: "Arioch! Arioch! Blood and souls for my lord Arioch!"

Random Khornate Berserker: "Blood for the Blood God! Skulls for the Skull Throne!"


There's divine magic all up in this bish, from the SOB to random Chaos Sorcerers, gifts of the Chaos Gods, "magic" weapons with daemons bound into them, gnosis-engines and all sorts of other stuff. The Warp, though having a "scientific" explanation, is basically a dimension of pure magic.

I wasn't aware of the the Michael Morecock influence, I was never too big into fantasy when I was younger, my taste ran more to hard sci-fi, and the only fiction I really get to read these days are philosophy books for college credit. Those are something I'll have to read on holiday.

As for warp science or magic, you could easily look to Clarke's third law of prediction - "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic". Humans know it exists, know how to use it in a crude form, but don't know all the mechanics of it, like the various alchemical traditions. The Eldar have a much more refined understanding of the way the Warp works. Pity they don't let humans into the Black Library.

With the SoB being non-psykers, is there any precedent for non-psykers to manifest pseudo-psychic abilities by prayer/worship of the Chaos gods?

Whitey Blackman wrote:With the SoB being non-psykers, is there any precedent for non-psykers to manifest pseudo-psychic abilities by prayer/worship of the Chaos gods?

I've heard a lot about Chaos Sorcery being available to non-psykers, but I'm unsure if GW's version of the setting is actually including that or if it appears only in various licensed writings from various individual writers. Maybe a Chaos player who has read a lot of Codex fluff can shed some light on this?

For the Sisters, it's not just that they are non-psykers, though - but also that they used to have an active defense against psychic phenomena, regardless of their origin, and even if they were of a benign nature. Of course, one could easily come up with ways how this barrier can be neutralized, or simply assume that it was retconned out of the studio vision as it ceased to show up in the rules.