Hey,

I am working on some fluff for a campaign that hosts a Tau/human colony allience, I was wondering if anyone knew any sources or info of how Tau and human tech interact, are they able to be put together, do they function under very different ways, and how much of the Tau's tech is considered hersey by the imperium (just the A.I stuff)

basically I know very little on the Tau, save for the basics (caste system, type of tanks, etc.) so I am looking for any info on the Tau, but mostly the way in which they (the Tau themselves and their tech) interact with humans and their own tech.

Thanks for any feedback!

Well the Tau think that the Imperium are cavemen playing with the advanced tech of their ancestors. While the Imperium are well.... BURN THE HERES... Hmm lets copy it and say its not heresy.

As per the Codex: Tau Empire, the Adeptus Mechanicus acknowledge that much of Tau tech is superior to that of the IoM, but it is ALL regarded as heresy. Any xenos technology is heresy.

Not very well I think. Having a conversation between a tech priest and a tau engineer would require a translator.

If I remember correctly, the Tau Codex connects their technology to the Spyrer hunting rigs used by the human nobility on Necromunda. Needless to say, that kind of tech is highly illegal, but when you're a noble you can get away with a lot of things ... to a certain degree.

I cannot cite the exact source but i believe one of the reasons for the Damocles Crusade was because IoM planets near the Tau territory were starting to trade for basic Tau technologies....farm equipment, tools, things of that sort. The AM anaylized this tech reasoning that Tau tech was close to IoM tech and sometimes better but that they did not obey the proper rights and rituals of the Machine Spirit. This is Heresy!!! But i do imagine the Earth Caste coming up with a damn fine espresso maker

Races stick with their own tech, except those who feel above restrictions like the inquisition who uses just everything they want.
Still you won't see mixed tech ( except the rumored heritage of the dreaded dreadknight ) and the =I= uses tech as is.

All Alien technology is heresy to the imperium I believe. I think the Imperium could understand Tau technology with some effort, but i doubt they would even try knowing the price for heresy...

Adaptive is a trait that a trait that I can best describe Tau technology, if the Tau were to interact with Imperial Technology, they would request aid from the Earth Caste and they would not have any trouble reverse engineering Imperial Machines. If a Fire Caste Expeditionary group were to encounter an Imperial communication relay on a planet, I could see them dispatching an earth caste drone equipped to interact with the relay terminal, similar to how R2D2 in Star Wars is able to fiddle with EVERYTHING (USB 1.0 anyone?). With this, they could perhaps be able to access the relay and be able to execute rudimentary commands, such as tapping into recordings of previous transmissions and such.

As for the Imperium... if it's Xenos., you usually purge it with holy bolter fire.

the Earth Caste and they would not have any trouble reverse engineering Imperial Machines.

Reverse engeneering isn't so easy.
There is a reason why scientists were moved from one country to another after wars.

Einhänder wrote:Adaptive is a trait that a trait that I can best describe Tau technology, if he Tau were to interact with Imperial Technology, they would request aid from the Earth Caste and they would not have any trouble reverse engineering Imperial Machines. If a Fire Caste Expeditionary group were to encounter an Imperial communication relay on a planet, I could see them dispatching an earth caste drone equipped to interact with the relay terminal, similar to how R2D2 in Star Wars is able to fiddle with EVERYTHING (USB 1.0 anyone?). With this, they could perhaps be able to access the relay and be able to execute rudimentary commands, such as tapping into recordings of previous transmissions and such.

I doubt that the Tau could do anything like this. If they could, they would have Multi-Meltas, infantry-sized Plasma Cannons and other nasty stuff used by their opponents.

I think many people overestimate Tau technology. I think that Tau is on par with the Orks in the terms of techieness. Actually, the two is like the mirror of each other: the Tau is all shiny and high-tech looking, but they have nothing special - while the Orks have all these messy and rag-tag tech that is actually pretty advanced (Kustom Force Fields to say one).

AtoMaki wrote:

Einhänder wrote:Adaptive is a trait that a trait that I can best describe Tau technology, if he Tau were to interact with Imperial Technology, they would request aid from the Earth Caste and they would not have any trouble reverse engineering Imperial Machines. If a Fire Caste Expeditionary group were to encounter an Imperial communication relay on a planet, I could see them dispatching an earth caste drone equipped to interact with the relay terminal, similar to how R2D2 in Star Wars is able to fiddle with EVERYTHING (USB 1.0 anyone?). With this, they could perhaps be able to access the relay and be able to execute rudimentary commands, such as tapping into recordings of previous transmissions and such.

I doubt that the Tau could do anything like this. If they could, they would have Multi-Meltas, infantry-sized Plasma Cannons and other nasty stuff used by their opponents.

I think many people overestimate Tau technology. I think that Tau is on par with the Orks in the terms of techieness. Actually, the two is like the mirror of each other: the Tau is all shiny and high-tech looking, but they have nothing special - while the Orks have all these messy and rag-tag tech that is actually pretty advanced (Kustom Force Fields to say one).

Not even close.

One, their basic infantry equipment. Extremely light weight carapace equivalent protection for the fire warriors, with hyper advanced targeting computers (Tau are like birds and prey animals, eyes on side of head-ish, not good for hunting/shooting. Which explains their god awful WS2), and ability to link into other systems for markerlight tech.

Pulse rifle. These are essentially man sized hadron accelerators. Pack as much punch as a heavy bolter, longer range than any other standard rifle, rapid fire capability.

Plasma weaponry. The tau's plasma technology surpasses the IOM's so far that they don't overheat and can maintain more accurate and longer bursts of fire, with a small sacrifice in strength of impact.

Smart missile systems, no need for line of site to target and fire and forget basically.

Jet pack suits. This one is killer. Lots can be said about space marines durability combined with power armor, but the suits even have an ejection system and can host much more tech on them.


I don't know a whole lot more, but the rest of their military tech is astounding compared to IOM, and that's completely discounting the non military technologies they have access too. They had 5000 years of uninterrupted evolution and cultural/technological advancement.

AtoMaki wrote:

Einhänder wrote:Adaptive is a trait that a trait that I can best describe Tau technology, if he Tau were to interact with Imperial Technology, they would request aid from the Earth Caste and they would not have any trouble reverse engineering Imperial Machines. If a Fire Caste Expeditionary group were to encounter an Imperial communication relay on a planet, I could see them dispatching an earth caste drone equipped to interact with the relay terminal, similar to how R2D2 in Star Wars is able to fiddle with EVERYTHING (USB 1.0 anyone?). With this, they could perhaps be able to access the relay and be able to execute rudimentary commands, such as tapping into recordings of previous transmissions and such.

I doubt that the Tau could do anything like this. If they could, they would have Multi-Meltas, infantry-sized Plasma Cannons and other nasty stuff used by their opponents.

I think many people overestimate Tau technology. I think that Tau is on par with the Orks in the terms of techieness. Actually, the two is like the mirror of each other: the Tau is all shiny and high-tech looking, but they have nothing special - while the Orks have all these messy and rag-tag tech that is actually pretty advanced (Kustom Force Fields to say one).

The Tau do utilize plasma technology, and they overcame the design limitations of the infamous "Gets Hot!" issue with plasma weapons. They do actually have weapons that are similiar to that of Multi-meltas and plasma cannons. But my point is that if Tau were to interact with Imperial technology, they would be able to at an extremely basic level, therefore they will be unable to exploit any higher forms of Imperial technology (Titan weapons, etc.). Unlike the Imperium, the Tau could utilize A.I to help interface some basic Imperial constructs but anything other than that is beyond Tau technology

1hadhq wrote:

the Earth Caste and they would not have any trouble reverse engineering Imperial Machines.

Reverse engeneering isn't so easy.
There is a reason why scientists were moved from one country to another after wars.

Perhaps the Earth Caste and willing human who are adept in machinery could exchange knowledge on a Tau controlled planet?

Einhänder wrote:
The Tau do utilize plasma technology, and they overcame the design limitations of the infamous "Gets Hot!" issue with plasma weapons. They do actually have weapons that are similiar to that of Multi-meltas and plasma cannons. But my point is that if Tau were to interact with Imperial technology, they would be able to at an extremely basic level, therefore they will be unable to exploit any higher forms of Imperial technology (Titan weapons, etc.). Unlike the Imperium, the Tau could utilize A.I to help interface some basic Imperial constructs but anything other than that is beyond Tau technology

Actually, while the Tau do utilize plasma technology, they do not overcam any design limitations. They just turned the power down, so it wont overheat. Tau codex pg 27 (top left corner, Plasma rifle) for fruther reference.

Whilte the Tau have weapons similar than Multi-Meltas and Plasma Cannons, they are:
a., Not exactly the same (maybe the Fusion Cannon is...)
b., Hammerhead mounted (they are big)
They are also recent developments. Reference: Imperial Armour vol 3, page 158 and 162.

Oh, and the Imperium also have a form of "A.I." in the shape of kogitators.

And i think the Tau's biggest problem with basic IoM tech is the usual "Where to pluck my datafeed on this thing" while standing in the front of an Earthshaker cannon. Or on a more IRL example: "Try to heck my Ak-47 with your IPod!".

BronzeJon wrote:

Not even close.

One, their basic infantry equipment. Extremely light weight carapace equivalent protection for the fire warriors, with hyper advanced targeting computers (Tau are like birds and prey animals, eyes on side of head-ish, not good for hunting/shooting. Which explains their god awful WS2), and ability to link into other systems for markerlight tech.

Pulse rifle. These are essentially man sized hadron accelerators. Pack as much punch as a heavy bolter, longer range than any other standard rifle, rapid fire capability.

Plasma weaponry. The tau's plasma technology surpasses the IOM's so far that they don't overheat and can maintain more accurate and longer bursts of fire, with a small sacrifice in strength of impact.

Smart missile systems, no need for line of site to target and fire and forget basically.

Jet pack suits. This one is killer. Lots can be said about space marines durability combined with power armor, but the suits even have an ejection system and can host much more tech on them.


I don't know a whole lot more, but the rest of their military tech is astounding compared to IOM, and that's completely discounting the non military technologies they have access too. They had 5000 years of uninterrupted evolution and cultural/technological advancement.

O RLY ?

Ulumeathi invented a counter to plasma. Does this make them superawesome ?
Nids countered plasma too -- somehow plasma isn't so great...and it is hinted at the nids attacking the ulumeathi...
OtoH the real plasma weapons have no "get hot issue" if you dare to look for them.
Imperial ones just accept the risk in exchange for strength.

Same for smart missiles. Consider the cost of a missile and the cost of artillery. Imperial artillery wins because its ammo is affordable in numbers your smart missiles could never hope to match.


GW isn't creative enough to hand out different weapons to everyone, so many things will be a " flamer", " melta" etc.
If they intend a techy approach, it doesn't mean you get what you feel entitled to. Read their release article. GW balanced the suits until they fit into the game-system. They will keep it that way and thus any imagined advance doesn't happen.
Culture for example has stayed pure TAU , even with these allies around. Didn't adapt anything there it seems.

Einhänder wrote:

Perhaps the Earth Caste and willing human who are adept in machinery could exchange knowledge on a Tau controlled planet?

Human tech is controlled by the adepts of the mechanicum, which secures its position of power through keeping it close to their chests.
So if they don't share with fellow humans, why should they with non-humans? They keep secrets amongst their own order too.!
The exchange would be limited by this, and the Tau like to have drones where humans work with their own hands.
What would they swap there? One side utilizing the masses, to keep them busy, the other utilizing tech to make up for their small numbers.

Apart from IA 3: the Taros campaign (human auxiliaries make use of Tau-manned Tau transports, IIRC, and the water caste emissaries convince the Taros colony to switch sides mainly with the promise of trading/donating them Tau Tech) and mention in the Tau Codex of florent trade of their techs to human worlds around the Damocles Gulf, the only examples of Tau/human tech interface come from not-completely-canonical sources, like BL books and FFG publications.

So, to answer your questions, Tau tech is probably, differently from Eldar (which make frequent use of psychic interfaces and command systems) one, usable by humans and compatible with human technology, with enough effort and technological knowledge (possibly from a collaboration of both sides).
On the other hand, while criminal elements or less dogmatic characters, like xeno inquisitors, may well accept their use, Tau tech is a heresy to be destroyed on sight for most members of the Cult Mechanicus, both for their use of non-organic AIs and their total lack of belief in the Machine Spirit (meaning no faith in the "spiritual" component of machines: so, no appeasing rituals, no praises, no purity scrolls and the like). Which doesn't mean that some of the more "original" Techpriests couldn't develop some secret interest in it...

thanks for all the feedback guys.

I know the imperium would consider it hersey, but when you look at all the ways in which other alien creatures such as the kroot and the human tau troops use tau tech at times to either improve their own or to replace their.

BronzeJon wrote:.
One, their basic infantry equipment. Extremely light weight carapace equivalent protection for the fire warriors, with hyper advanced targeting computers (Tau are like birds and prey animals, eyes on side of head-ish, not good for hunting/shooting. Which explains their god awful WS2), and ability to link into other systems for markerlight tech.

For this I agree but:

Pulse rifle. These are essentially man sized hadron accelerators. Pack as much punch as a heavy bolter, longer range than any other standard rifle, rapid fire capability.

It is more powerful then Lasgun but weaker then Bolter or Imperial Plasma gun, this Sister of Battle is a great proff of this:


It shows how Tau Pulse Rifle has little effect on Imperial Power Armor. Same thing you can see in the fluff if you read BL books regarding the Tau.

Plasma weaponry. The tau's plasma technology surpasses the IOM's so far that they don't overheat and can maintain more accurate and longer bursts of fire, with a small sacrifice in strength of impact.

Not quite. Tau Plasma is more stable to use but it is also weaker. And the reason why Imperial Plasma explode is not because the weapon is build faulty it is because in the heat of battle Marines and Guardsman alike forget to went the Plasma. Tau don't have that kind of problem because their Plasma is on lower energy level and thus wanting is not necessarily.

Smart missile systems, no need for line of site to target and fire and forget basically.

Every race has this except Orks, Necrons and Tyranids. Imperial call it Hunter-Killer missile that acts like smart missile system.

Jet pack suits. This one is killer. Lots can be said about space marines durability combined with power armor, but the suits even have an ejection system and can host much more tech on them.

Battlesuits are quite formidable foe, to this I agree. They can carry up to 2 weapons and have a great precision when firing in mid-air. But their numbers are limited and using the suit has bad influence on it's wielder. But where they are used you can be sure that they will do the damage.

I don't know a whole lot more, but the rest of their military tech is astounding compared to IOM

Imperium has Grey Knight, Custodes, Assassins, Titan Legions, Entire Space Marine Chapters,Tech Guard, Stormtrooper Regiments. Tau millitary is not quite astounding to how this millitary benches are.

They had 5000 years of uninterrupted evolution and cultural/technological advancement.

And as it is noted xxx times times in the Warp and time in the real space are quite different things. For all that we know it could be 12.000 years for the Tau and 6.000 for us.
Since all available data on that comes from Imperial perspective ( we have yet to hear Tau part on this ) we can't say for sure how many year did the Tau really spend evolving in their sense of time.

Brother Coa wrote:

And as it is noted xxx times times in the Warp and time in the real space are quite different things. For all that we know it could be 12.000 years for the Tau and 6.000 for us.
Since all available data on that comes from Imperial perspective ( we have yet to hear Tau part on this ) we can't say for sure how many year did the Tau really spend evolving in their sense of time.

They weren't in the Warp, it was a warp storm SURROUNDING the system.

It seems like you always try to discredit the Tau. Seriously, going around comparing Imperium technology to Tau technology and claiming Imperium comes out on top is just plain ignorance. Also, a single shot from a pulse rifle bouncing off a piece of power armour does not prove that pulse rifles are less powerful than bolters. In Path of the Warrior a String Scorpions shoves his chainsword right through the chest of a Space Marine.

Marzillius wrote:In Path of the Warrior a String Scorpions shoves his chainsword right through the chest of a Space Marine.

Draigo killed Bloodthrsted and reforge his own weapon using the material from Bloodthrster Axe, all while being in the Warp.
Therefore your argument is invalid.


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Marzillius wrote:
They weren't in the Warp, it was a warp storm SURROUNDING the system.

Warp affect large areas of space, entire Tau system was influenced by it because Warp storm surround the entire system.
Therefore everything inside was under the influence of the Warp, including time and space.

Draigo killed Bloodthrsted and reforge his own weapon using the material from Bloodthrster Axe, all while being in the Warp.
Therefore your argument is invalid.

...what? How on earth does that invalidate my argument? That's like if I said "David Cameron became Prime Minister of the United Kingdom" and you say "Obama became President of the United States so your argument is invalid".

Warp affect large areas of space, entire Tau system was influenced by it because Warp storm surround the entire system.
Therefore everything inside was under the influence of the Warp, including time and space.

Look. If a codex says that something happened in 5000 years, it happened in 5000 years. No reasoning on your part will change that. Claiming that it happened during a longer peroid of time is an obvious attempt to further discredit the Tau.

I would say that their tech is about equal with different focuses, similar to Soviet vs. American tech in the Cold War.

The Imperium is more like the Soviets, with overall a "lower" technological base, only because their technological focus was on efficiency and 'good enough.' They were also more innovative, using existing technology in new ways (see Explosive-Reactive Armor).

The Tau are more like America, with tanks and troops individually more powerful and useful than their Imperial counterparts thanks to their higher standards of technology and manufacture. However, the difference is not great enough to make up for the numbers disparity, because (for example) each Tau Hammerhead, while capable of engaging and destroying two Leman Russes, costs more than three Leman Russes to manufacture.

Brother Coa wrote:
It is more powerful then Lasgun but weaker then Bolter or Imperial Plasma gun, this Sister of Battle is a great proff of this:


It shows how Tau Pulse Rifle has little effect on Imperial Power Armor. Same thing you can see in the fluff if you read BL books regarding the Tau.

i dont know what "proff" is, but third party video game FMVs are hardly "proof". if you have the budget, you can animate anything you want. as for BL, its legitimacy is questionable a lot of the time (cough cs goto cough). most fluff mentions their "amazing" firepower though.

Brother Coa wrote:
Not quite. Tau Plasma is more stable to use but it is also weaker. And the reason why Imperial Plasma explode is not because the weapon is build faulty it is because in the heat of battle Marines and Guardsman alike forget to went the Plasma. Tau don't have that kind of problem because their Plasma is on lower energy level and thus wanting is not necessarily.

would you argue that eldar plasma is also less advanced? "moar dakka" does not necessarily mean more advanced.

Brother Coa wrote:
Battlesuits are quite formidable foe, to this I agree. They can carry up to 2 weapons and have a great precision when firing in mid-air. But their numbers are limited and using the suit has bad influence on it's wielder. But where they are used you can be sure that they will do the damage.

it can cause feedback. on a rarity of occassions. mostly though, only those who can deal with the surgery are given suits though. here is the thing though, if you're arguing failure rate here, or the problems that they cause as proof of their inferiority, then space marines must be absolutely terrible, considering their geneseed failure rate and they're hardly "rare". each manta has space for 8.

Brother Coa wrote:
Imperium has Grey Knight, Custodes, Assassins, Titan Legions, Entire Space Marine Chapters,Tech Guard, Stormtrooper Regiments. Tau millitary is not quite astounding to how this millitary benches are.

*shrug* So? in terms of numbers, and power then there are no arguments. the imperials have the single biggest military in the galaxy. but thats not the issue.

Grey Knights? admittedly, one of the most powerful (yet small) organisations in the galaxy. very advanced psionics. that said, in terms of their equipment, a lot of it is standard (or slightly modded) astartes pattern. in general though, the imperials (by dint of possessing psykers) have far superior psychic based technology.
Stormtrooper regiments are just well trained grunts, equipped with kmodified lasguns with backpack sized batteries. they're nothing particularly "advanced".
titans? a single AX-10 took down a warhound in iav3, and a single strafing run made the imperials pull the titans from the field entirely. are they advanced? Sure, i guess. same with the plasma/nuclear engines. they've got mind-link interfaces for one. tau dont have them, as they dont see the point. sure, they're big and stompy, but so are mantas, and manta missile destroyers. they require a lot of additional support (MASSIVE dropships to allow redeployment for example) and they are for the most part, slow, cumbersome and big targets. see again what a single AX10 did. they have lots of drawbakcs.

And as it is noted xxx times times in the Warp and time in the real space are quite different things. For all that we know it could be 12.000 years for the Tau and 6.000 for us.

Warp affect large areas of space, entire Tau system was influenced by it because Warp storm surround the entire system.
Therefore everything inside was under the influence of the Warp, including time and space.

the tau worlds were never "in" the warp. the area of space was cut off by warpstorms. regarding the second quote, no, its no strictly true only being "in" the warp or. in areas like the maelstrom, and the eye of terror where the warp spills over into realspace will you find the time/space distortions, you have the same phenomenon. if its only a warpstorm, there is no realspace effect, bar the fact that ships stop arriving as you cant get there.

personally, i hold the view that the best fire warriors are the equal of the best guard. which is a notable acheivement. tau veterans, armed with the right technology i feel are fully able to go toe to toe with their imperial counterparts. as for the tech itself, tau technology matches and even exceeds the imperials in quite a lot of areas, whilst not holding a candle to them in others (say, areas like psyonics)

No one school brother coa on this topic. He knows it all, but dosen't accept it or agree with it.

Indeed I do, and there is no point on agreeing with peopel who either

-don't understand what i am trying to say, or
-don't want to understand what I am trying to say

And I see that people again point to Tigershark bringing down Warhound ( the weakest and smallest of Titans ), while always expelling the fact that Tigershark was the only Tau unit that survived Imeprial assault. While Imperial had only light losses including the Titan.

I accept that Tau are formidable for and very advanced civilization. But Imeprium is more advanced only difference being it's share size that prevents them to replace Imperial Guard with only Space Marines. And while I agree that they can do a lot of damage ( as they demonstrated on Taros and Nimbosa ) that doesn't mean that Pulse rifle can tear trough Terminator armor like airplane trough cloud.

All Pulse Weapons are stronger than Bolters. Perhaps Heavy Bolters outclass them (I don't know their stat line), but the weakest Tau weapon aside from the Flamer and CIB is stronger than the Boltgun.

In game terms it essentially means that Fire Warriors make up for their crappy BS by wounding more often.

Tau dakka > Imperial dakka

Additionally, I (as a Tau player) never had a soldier die to his own weapon.

Brother Coa wrote:
It is more powerful then Lasgun but weaker then Bolter or Imperial Plasma gun, this Sister of Battle is a great proff of this:


It shows how Tau Pulse Rifle has little effect on Imperial Power Armor. Same thing you can see in the fluff if you read BL books regarding the Tau.

Do not use that Iron Lore abomination as evidence!

Have you noted that the 'plasma' is making the same noise as bullets being deflected? Such an awful expansion...

Could be a faith miracle anyhoo.





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I prefer the Ciaphas Cain description of the rounds being like little suns passing over his head; too bright to look at and the heat being projected onto him even as it passed by.

Brother Coa wrote:Indeed I do, and there is no point on agreeing with peopel who either

-don't understand what i am trying to say, or
-don't want to understand what I am trying to say

And I see that people again point to Tigershark bringing down Warhound ( the weakest and smallest of Titans ), while always expelling the fact that Tigershark was the only Tau unit that survived Imeprial assault. While Imperial had only light losses including the Titan.

I accept that Tau are formidable for and very advanced civilization. But Imeprium is more advanced only difference being it's share size that prevents them to replace Imperial Guard with only Space Marines. And while I agree that they can do a lot of damage ( as they demonstrated on Taros and Nimbosa ) that doesn't mean that Pulse rifle can tear trough Terminator armor like airplane trough cloud.

And you. Don't try to school tau fans about the tau. They already know more then you do about them.

Brother Coa wrote:Indeed I do, and there is no point on agreeing with peopel who either

-don't understand what i am trying to say, or
-don't want to understand what I am trying to say

And I see that people again point to Tigershark bringing down Warhound ( the weakest and smallest of Titans ), while always expelling the fact that Tigershark was the only Tau unit that survived Imeprial assault. While Imperial had only light losses including the Titan.

I accept that Tau are formidable for and very advanced civilization. But Imeprium is more advanced only difference being it's share size that prevents them to replace Imperial Guard with only Space Marines. And while I agree that they can do a lot of damage ( as they demonstrated on Taros and Nimbosa ) that doesn't mean that Pulse rifle can tear trough Terminator armor like airplane trough cloud.

Sometimes I just wish the forum rules would allow the posting of non-wargaming images. The "Dumb Bitch" rageface would be so fitting right now.

nomotog wrote:
And you. Don't try to school tau fans about the tau. They already know more then you do about them.

While that's true they obviously lack good info about Imperium. I am only here to fill up that gap.

1hadhq wrote:

Same for smart missiles. Consider the cost of a missile and the cost of artillery. Imperial artillery wins because its ammo is affordable in numbers your smart missiles could never hope to match.

Smart Missles are the smaller sets of missles mounted on drones.Where do you have any sort of proof that overall the cost of firing an artillery shell is cheaper than firing a self-guided missle? Tau use smart missles and seeker missles instead of Artillery because they want precision strikes instead of indirect fire.

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
And you. Don't try to school tau fans about the tau. They already know more then you do about them.

While that's true they obviously lack good info about Imperium. I am only here to fill up that gap.

Then we require direct quotes with page numbers from the BrB, a codex or IA. If you can't do all that, then don't do anything.


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Mentlegen324 wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Same for smart missiles. Consider the cost of a missile and the cost of artillery. Imperial artillery wins because its ammo is affordable in numbers your smart missiles could never hope to match.

Smart Missles are the smaller sets of missles mounted on drones.Where do you have any sort of proof that overall the cost of firing an artillery shell is cheaper than firing a self-guided missle? Tau use smart missles and seeker missles instead of Artillery because they want precision strikes instead of indirect fire.

We don't know much about what things cost. The SMS could cost as much as a battle fleet or be as cheap as a loaf of bread. Oh they aren't mounted on drones just battlesuits tanks or turrents.

nomotog wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
And you. Don't try to school tau fans about the tau. They already know more then you do about them.

While that's true they obviously lack good info about Imperium. I am only here to fill up that gap.

Then we require direct quotes with page numbers from the BrB, a codex or IA. If you can't do all that, then don't do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Same for smart missiles. Consider the cost of a missile and the cost of artillery. Imperial artillery wins because its ammo is affordable in numbers your smart missiles could never hope to match.

Smart Missles are the smaller sets of missles mounted on drones.Where do you have any sort of proof that overall the cost of firing an artillery shell is cheaper than firing a self-guided missle? Tau use smart missles and seeker missles instead of Artillery because they want precision strikes instead of indirect fire.

We don't know much about what things cost. The SMS could cost as much as a battle fleet or be as cheap as a loaf of bread. Oh they aren't mounted on drones just battlesuits tanks or turrents.

Wrong.



Seeker missles at the back, Smart missles at the front.

Brother Coa wrote:

BronzeJon wrote:.
One, their basic infantry equipment. Extremely light weight carapace equivalent protection for the fire warriors, with hyper advanced targeting computers (Tau are like birds and prey animals, eyes on side of head-ish, not good for hunting/shooting. Which explains their god awful WS2), and ability to link into other systems for markerlight tech.

For this I agree but:

Pulse rifle. These are essentially man sized hadron accelerators. Pack as much punch as a heavy bolter, longer range than any other standard rifle, rapid fire capability.

It is more powerful then Lasgun but weaker then Bolter or Imperial Plasma gun, this Sister of Battle is a great proff of this:


It shows how Tau Pulse Rifle has little effect on Imperial Power Armor. Same thing you can see in the fluff if you read BL books regarding the Tau.

Plasma weaponry. The tau's plasma technology surpasses the IOM's so far that they don't overheat and can maintain more accurate and longer bursts of fire, with a small sacrifice in strength of impact.

Not quite. Tau Plasma is more stable to use but it is also weaker. And the reason why Imperial Plasma explode is not because the weapon is build faulty it is because in the heat of battle Marines and Guardsman alike forget to went the Plasma. Tau don't have that kind of problem because their Plasma is on lower energy level and thus wanting is not necessarily.

Smart missile systems, no need for line of site to target and fire and forget basically.

Every race has this except Orks, Necrons and Tyranids. Imperial call it Hunter-Killer missile that acts like smart missile system.

Jet pack suits. This one is killer. Lots can be said about space marines durability combined with power armor, but the suits even have an ejection system and can host much more tech on them.

Battlesuits are quite formidable foe, to this I agree. They can carry up to 2 weapons and have a great precision when firing in mid-air. But their numbers are limited and using the suit has bad influence on it's wielder. But where they are used you can be sure that they will do the damage.

I don't know a whole lot more, but the rest of their military tech is astounding compared to IOM

Imperium has Grey Knight, Custodes, Assassins, Titan Legions, Entire Space Marine Chapters,Tech Guard, Stormtrooper Regiments. Tau millitary is not quite astounding to how this millitary benches are.

They had 5000 years of uninterrupted evolution and cultural/technological advancement.

And as it is noted xxx times times in the Warp and time in the real space are quite different things. For all that we know it could be 12.000 years for the Tau and 6.000 for us.
Since all available data on that comes from Imperial perspective ( we have yet to hear Tau part on this ) we can't say for sure how many year did the Tau really spend evolving in their sense of time.

Soulstorm should not be used to justify anything. The only reason the Tau pulse shots bounced off in that video is because it looks cool. Black Library writters put whatever the like in their story aswell, just to make it look cool.

No other race uses guided missles to the same extent of the Tau. They have Smart missles and they have seeker missles - both of which are self-controlled direct fire weapons.

No where suggests battlesuit numbers are limited. As they are the main form of combat for any Tau FireCaste member who has survived for 8 Tau years, they will have quite a large amount of them. They do not have bad effects on the user, other than the occasional limb-loss when the Battlesuit looses a limb.

Grey Knight, Custodes, Assassins, Titan Legions, Entire Space Marine Chapters,Tech Guard and Stormtrooper Regiments are not part of the regular Imperial Millitary. The majority of those are dependant on experiance instead of actual technology. Grey Knights, Assasins, custodes, Titan legions and full Space Marine chapters are in low numbers, there are not many in the Imperium, and they are not going to be sent against the Tau often, or in the case of Custodes, not at all. They do not have a large amount of extremely advanced tech either, with a few exceptions.

The Tau also understood how all of their technology works and can easily remake it, unlike the Imperium.

The Tau planet was surrounded by a Warp Storm - not in the Warp itself.

Smart missiles on the front, but those are not drones. They might be drone controlled turrets, but they are vehicle mounted.

nomotog wrote:Smart missiles on the front, but those are not drones. They might be drone controlled turrets, but they are vehicle mounted.

And how is a drone-controlled turret not a drone? Because it can't fly?

Mentlegen324 wrote:

nomotog wrote:Smart missiles on the front, but those are not drones. They might be drone controlled turrets, but they are vehicle mounted.

And how is a drone-controlled turret not a drone? Because it can't fly?

Yes. To put it simply. It's not it's own person. It can't act on it's own rather it's a part of the vehicle. Also. On second thought, I don't think it's drone controlled because it dosen't get it's own BS score like other drone controlled weapons do (See manta).

nomotog wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

nomotog wrote:Smart missiles on the front, but those are not drones. They might be drone controlled turrets, but they are vehicle mounted.

And how is a drone-controlled turret not a drone? Because it can't fly?

Yes. To put it simply. It's not it's own person. It can't act on it's own rather it's a part of the vehicle. Also. On second thought, I don't think it's drone controlled because it dosen't get it's own BS score like other drone controlled weapons do (See manta).

Fair enough, i've always thought they were drones. Guess they aren't.

I made the same error when I was new. Thought the guns on the barracuda where independent drones. No one told me turns out they are just turrets.

nomotog wrote:I made the same error when I was new. Thought the guns on the barracuda where independent drones. No one told me turns out they are just turrets.

I started W40K about 8 years ago and have never noticed it. Always assumed that because they were in the drone slot and look like drones, they are drones or atleast automated. Doesn't seem right that they would need two extra gunners (Depending on the weapon choice) when they could just make them drones.

They don't need extra gunners. I'm actually not sure how it works, but tau have advanced target locks and that might be it.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
No where suggests battlesuit numbers are limited.

I should explain this...
To me, at least, battlesuits represent the most elite form of Tau military - just like Astartes are for the Imperium.
And the Elites cannot go in large numbers, just like Space Marines are few in numbers to. ( I compred the number of battlesuits to number of Fire Warriors )

With everything else I concur, dough most of that are my personal inputs into the Tau technology/culture/history.

Brother Coa wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
No where suggests battlesuit numbers are limited.

I should explain this...
To me, at least, battlesuits represent the most elite form of Tau military - just like Astartes are for the Imperium.
And the Elites cannot go in large numbers, just like Space Marines are few in numbers to. ( I compred the number of battlesuits to number of Fire Warriors )

With everything else I concur, dough most of that are my personal inputs into the Tau technology/culture/history.

I agree with this. Some people seem to think that battlesuites are stamped out in an assembly line, but the impression i get is that they are fairly rare and expensive reserved only for the elite members of the fire caste. Just there name should tell you something in the tau language they are called the mantel of the hero. My circulations are that 8% of fire warriors use battlesuits.

the numbers are deliberately kept on the low side to maintain the "mystique" and l33tness of the suits for the tau. this is akin to terminator armour for a marine. its a huge honour, and a huge responsibility. those with suits are the officer corps of the tau.

that said, i dont think they're *that* rare, *that* being on the scale of, say, marines to guardsmen. every cadre has between 50 and 100 fire warriors. I'd hazard a guess that you'd be dealing with maybe a dozen suit pilots, including the shas'el, his shas'vre bodyguards, and a squad or two of regular pilots. sure, rare. but most shas will regularly come across an officer in their daily rot'aas.

Actually, in a standrad Hunter Cadre (as per in the Apocalypse book) there are:
-Two FW Teams
- Three Crisis Teams
- One Broadside Team

So counting with maxed units, there are 12 suits for 24 FW...

Deadnight wrote:the numbers are deliberately kept on the low side to maintain the "mystique" and l33tness of the suits for the tau. this is akin to terminator armour for a marine. its a huge honour, and a huge responsibility. those with suits are the officer corps of the tau.

that said, i dont think they're *that* rare, *that* being on the scale of, say, marines to guardsmen. every cadre has between 50 and 100 fire warriors. I'd hazard a guess that you'd be dealing with maybe a dozen suit pilots, including the shas'el, his shas'vre bodyguards, and a squad or two of regular pilots. sure, rare. but most shas will regularly come across an officer in their daily rot'aas.

Going by the sample army in the codex.

90 tau. One three member strike team. One two member battlesuit team. One three member command team. 3+3+2=8 8/90= .o8888 Or 8%. There are my calculations. Not anywhere as rare as a SM.

WE have discussed this to death. Imperial tech is higher in regards to the tau. Tau Spacecraft get their arse kicked by Imperial Ships. The Imperium only sent 8 ships in and they DESTROYED THE ENTIRE TAU FLEET!
Twice!
Tyranids same thing.
The Tau do not have space flight abilities. Oh they have railguns? So does the imperium but they are more powerful. And they are on all the space craft, and starships. (Please read BFG Turret info, specifically says railgun)
Railguns are really ineffective, when the imperium is facing things that move alot. Unforunately GW does not know that You could easily move out of the way of a Railgun weapon. Making it completely ineffective against infantry and walkers.

The Tau weaponry is kinda bad compared to a bolter, hotshot lasgun, and the entire imperium weaponry reserves.

Helk they have only fought scout titans and that caused them a hell of a lot of trouble.

200 marines and 3 regiments went against the tau and almost brought it to its knees before having to retreat because they didn't see it as worth it.
The Imperium does replicate technologies and does adapt to them. (Tyranic Wars, Tau Campagins, and many others where they develop weapons against the xeno's races.)

The tau weapons may not be better, but they do so some form of progress.

I like the cold war anaology that was broughtup.

Asherian Command wrote:WE have discussed this to death.

And thank you for putting out all of that again.
Now I can leave this thread in peace.

Asherian Command wrote:WE have discussed this to death. Imperial tech is higher in regards to the tau. Tau Spacecraft get their arse kicked by Imperial Ships. The Imperium only sent 8 ships in and they DESTROYED THE ENTIRE TAU FLEET!
Twice!
Tyranids same thing.
The Tau do not have space flight abilities. Oh they have railguns? So does the imperium but they are more powerful. And they are on all the space craft, and starships. (Please read BFG Turret info, specifically says railgun)
Railguns are really ineffective, when the imperium is facing things that move alot. Unforunately GW does not know that You could easily move out of the way of a Railgun weapon. Making it completely ineffective against infantry and walkers.

The Tau weaponry is kinda bad compared to a bolter, hotshot lasgun, and the entire imperium weaponry reserves.

Helk they have only fought scout titans and that caused them a hell of a lot of trouble.

200 marines and 3 regiments went against the tau and almost brought it to its knees before having to retreat because they didn't see it as worth it.
The Imperium does replicate technologies and does adapt to them. (Tyranic Wars, Tau Campagins, and many others where they develop weapons against the xeno's races.)

I won't deny the Tau's space flight deficiencies; however, everything else is gak as far as I'm concerned.

The Tau have minimized the size and maximized the power and portability of their railguns down to the standard infantry level (rail rifle).

Additionally, I'd take a Pulse Rifle over a Boltgun any day.

Finally, the Imperium attacked ONE decently inhabited sept and were driven back.

Oh...and T'ros (used to be called Taros before, y'know...the Tau TOOK IT)...nuff said.

Mar'tacus wrote:
Finally, the Imperium attacked ONE decently inhabited sept and were driven back.

Just read how many Krieg Guardsamn was on Vraks and you will get the idea how small Imperil Force in Democles was.
+ Tyranids appeared ( Kraken ) and Imperial really need to stop them more then Tau.

Oh...and T'ros (used to be called Taros before, y'know...the Tau TOOK IT)...nuff said.

That Campaign was not supported by the Imperium + army there was lead by bunch of idiots while Space Marines eat popcorns in high orbit.
But Imperium at least destroyed one entire Tau armed force, kill and Ehterial and then repelled their entire Taros army with 200 Space Marines. Nuff said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mar'tacus wrote:
The Tau have minimized the size and maximized the power and portability of their railguns down to the standard infantry level (rail rifle).

That weapon is still rare and was known to explode at the beginning, don't know if they fixed that yet.

Additionally, I'd take a Pulse Rifle over a Boltgun any day.

I would take a Bolter any day over Pulse Rifle simply because it packs more punch.
Pulse Rifle only have longer range but Bolter is stronger.

Mar'tacus wrote:
Oh...and T'ros (used to be called Taros before, y'know...the Tau TOOK IT)...nuff said.

Nimbosa used to be called Nimbosa, and still is. That's what happens when the world in question is valuable enough to the Imperium.

Asherian Command wrote:WE have discussed this to death. Imperial tech is higher in regards to the tau. Tau Spacecraft get their arse kicked by Imperial Ships. The Imperium only sent 8 ships in and they DESTROYED THE ENTIRE TAU FLEET!
Twice!

the "entire" fleet? iirc wasnt one of those fleets a mainly civilian fleet in the process of an evacuation? plus, this is before the days of the tau CPF. back then, the tau fleet was merchant ships retrofitted with guns. now, they're a lot more decent. still not on a par with imperial designs, but a vast improvement on what they were.

Asherian Command wrote:
The Tau do not have space flight abilities. Oh they have railguns? So does the imperium but they are more powerful. And they are on all the space craft, and starships. (Please read BFG Turret info, specifically says railgun)
Railguns are really ineffective, when the imperium is facing things that move alot. Unforunately GW does not know that You could easily move out of the way of a Railgun weapon. Making it completely ineffective against infantry and walkers.

arguing "realism" in 40k is a bit of a joke to be honest. the rule of cool trumps realism in this setting im afraid.

Asherian Command wrote:
The Tau weaponry is kinda bad compared to a bolter, hotshot lasgun, and the entire imperium weaponry reserves.

how so? longer ranged, more powerful, more accurate-especially at longer ranges (inquisitor rules)easy to maintain. bolters are loud shock weapons, and are not entirely accurate. hotshot lasguns require a backpack sized battery, are awkward, require frequent mainttenance and need to be constantly juiced up. The imperial weapon reserves are big, loud and powerful, but a lot of it is basic projectile and frag weaponry. sure, its bigger than the scale we are used to but its still along the same path. Tau rail, enenrgy and plasma technology is on a similar level, if you ask me. ive seen nothing to say imperial technology is more advanced in that regard. Now, in some areas the imperials most assuredly have the advantage. psyonics for one. in others, such as ai and anto grav, they have equal, but different approaches. the imperials have all but lost anti-grav, but maintain limited capacity for astartes land speeders etc. the tau seem to rely on extremely advanced VTOL technology for their suits and gunships.

Asherian Command wrote:
Helk they have only fought scout titans and that caused them a hell of a lot of trouble.

aye, in the past. sure. first time the tau went up against the orks (in space over tau'n) they lost something like 11 ships to the orks 1. Now, they match them constantly. first time they faced titans? yup, they came off worst, and had to rely on manta missile destroyers to counter them. that said, in more recent times, they've done very well for themselves to bring in new anti-titan weaponry and tactics - the AX-10 being a prime example.

Asherian Command wrote:
200 marines and 3 regiments went against the tau and almost brought it to its knees before having to retreat because they didn't see it as worth it.

it was 600 marines actually, and 17 regiments, plus a second similar wave that ended up being warp delayed and coming out in time to ally against the nids and then fight as part of the iron hammer campaign. As to what they did, they defeated the tau colony on hydas, they bombed a fishing colony on an otherwise inhabited world, and as soon as they hit something solid, they (a) almost lost their entire fleet to an ambush by a kroot warsphere, and (b)gground to a halt, and got bogged down into a war of attrition on dalyth. and bear in mind too, this is only local tau forces - a reserve fleet, and reinforcements from other septs never actually arrived to help out. In the end, it was a combination of kryptmanns missive to help out against hive fleet behemoth, and the fact that they were bogged down and going nowhere that led them to decide to pull back. had their been reinforcements? well, thats a different "what if". and pointless really, as i can say just the same regarding "what if" the kroot warsphere and the tau ambush had been successful...

Asherian Command wrote:
The Imperium does replicate technologies and does adapt to them. (Tyranic Wars, Tau Campagins, and many others where they develop weapons against the xeno's races.)

aye, indeed they do perform very limited advances (hey, GW has to shift new land raider kits, right?) but it takes a lot of politicking and fighting to get through the dogma. in a lot of cases, SM field mods (black templars+LR crusader, Space Wolves+Predators and Razorbacks) were only reluctantly sanctioned after all the SMs had taken it upon themselves to modify their kit. Heretek has caused wars in the past-see the Sons of Medusa for example. for every inquisitor who wants to learn about alien tech, there are a dozen magi that consider it heresy.

Brother Coa wrote:

Mar'tacus wrote:
Finally, the Imperium attacked ONE decently inhabited sept and were driven back.

Just read how many Krieg Guardsamn was on Vraks and you will get the idea how small Imperil Force in Democles was.
+ Tyranids appeared ( Kraken ) and Imperial really need to stop them more then Tau.
.

damocles was a typical crusade of that era on the eastern fringe. please rememeber too, vraks was a top priority campaign. they had first pick of the regiments to reinforce-hence the numbers and amount of men and materiel destined for that warzone. i would argue though that the big battles such as these (armageddon, eye of terror, sabbat world crusades) are not indicative of the tens of thousands of normal sized conflicts that take place. its pointless to argue "yeah well the imperials have more men. look at vraks/cadia/etc". this is noy what they have available against the tau. yes, to the tau it might be a huge empire shaking conflict, and to the imperials it will rate a aragraph somewhere in "border skrimishes on the eastern fringe vol:XXXVII".

regarding the tyranids and damocles thats cherry picking the story. they were going nowhere. they were bogged down, and stuck, and tau reinforcements were expected. kryptmanns missive, whilst it was regarding another huge conflict, simply gave them the face-saving opportunity to pull out.

Brother Coa wrote:

That Campaign was not supported by the Imperium + army there was lead by bunch of idiots while Space Marines eat popcorns in high orbit.
But Imperium at least destroyed one entire Tau armed force, kill and Ehterial and then repelled their entire Taros army with 200 Space Marines. Nuff said.
.

sounds like typical guard to me. not everyone is creed. regardless, taros was a good book. it explained in great detail the issues the imperial had from day 1. they got the support that they could, but there were other priorities elsewhere. seems a standard line for them.

the tau came off worst only in 2 situations on taros (one being the diversionary attack from operation comet) and one where they failed to annihalate the retreating guard as the raptors held them off for a day. even then, those victories were phyrric. rearding the etherial, he's t3 with no armour save. and the idiots only had a handful of fire warriors guarding him. no problems for the assassin. that said, look at the consequences. the tau got very peeved afterwards!

Brother Coa wrote:
That weapon is still rare and was known to explode at the beginning, don't know if they fixed that yet.

yup, its been fixed for a long time now. the headasploding rail rifles were just the first batch. also, they're not "rare". they're limited, but not rare. fact remains, the tau can mass produce them, and equip a large amount of their pathfinders, and rail rifle drone teams with them. regardless, its an amazing feat to miniaturise something that once required a frickin starship to mount it.

Brother Coa wrote:
I would take a Bolter any day over Pulse Rifle simply because it packs more punch.
Pulse Rifle only have longer range but Bolter is stronger.

where do you get it that its stronger? statwise, the pulse rifle is a lot more powerful. and id go with that more than a 3rd party FMV. any fluff i've read puts the pulse rifle as being more powerful. also, as above, its easier to maintain, more accurate, longer range...

I like to think the Space Marine missile launcher is partly guided... hence why you can snipe men with it. Plus, and maybe I'm being stupid here, 'missile' implies some kind of guidance to me as opposed to a rocket launcher...

Deadnight wrote:
damocles was a typical crusade of that era on the eastern fringe. please rememeber too, vraks was atop priority campaign.

Thank you for making my point on why Tau survived the Damocles.

sounds like typical guard to me. not everyone is creed. regardless, taros was a good book. it explained in great detail the issues the imperial had from day 1. they got the support that they could, but there were other priorities elsewhere. seems a standard line for them.

Good book? Yeah, some parts were good. I especially loved the assassination part, were Eversor were gunned down by several FW and he just go TROLOLOLOL on everyone
Adn that book just showed how low priority Tau is to the Imperium as a whole ( note the Cadian Gate massing and Cadinal onjection to the campaign for fighting a "small and worthless world".

Brother Coa wrote:
yup, its been fixed for a long time now. the headasploding rail rifles were just the first batch. also, they're not "rare". they're limited, but not rare. fact remains, the tau can mass produce them, and equip a large amount of their pathfinders, and rail rifle drone teams with them. regardless, its an amazing feat to miniaturise something that once required a frickin starship to mount it.

Ok, I agree here. But they are only as good as at get. I would still pick Longlas every day over Railgun.

Brother Coa wrote:
where do you get it that its stronger? statwise, the pulse rifle is a lot more powerful. and id go with that more than a 3rd party FMV. any fluff i've read puts the pulse rifle as being more powerful. also, as above, its easier to maintain, more accurate, longer range...

Rules wise yes, fluff wise no. ( remember that rules serve to balance the army's on table, otherwise Astartes would be unstoppable )
In fluff single Astartes with Bolter is more deadlier then a team of FW with Pulse Rifles.
Also Pulse Rifle is weaker then Bolter in fluff, due to Tau decreasing her power to add to stability and accuracy.

nomotog wrote:They don't need extra gunners. I'm actually not sure how it works, but tau have advanced target locks and that might be it.

They'd atleast need someone to control them, and controlling two guns at the same time isn't going to do too well.

nomotog wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
No where suggests battlesuit numbers are limited.

I should explain this...
To me, at least, battlesuits represent the most elite form of Tau military - just like Astartes are for the Imperium.
And the Elites cannot go in large numbers, just like Space Marines are few in numbers to. ( I compred the number of battlesuits to number of Fire Warriors )

With everything else I concur, dough most of that are my personal inputs into the Tau technology/culture/history.

I agree with this. Some people seem to think that battlesuites are stamped out in an assembly line, but the impression i get is that they are fairly rare and expensive reserved only for the elite members of the fire caste. Just there name should tell you something in the tau language they are called the mantel of the hero. My circulations are that 8% of fire warriors use battlesuits.

Battlesuits are the elite Tau - every Firewarrior who survives 8 Tau years get's the chance to use a Battlesuit of some sort. They are the standard form of combat for all Tau above Shas'ui, so clearly they have quite a large amount of them. In terms of actual numbers i'd say that Space Marines are rarer than battlesuits. There may not be as many Battlesuits as Marines, but that is just because the Tau military is no where near the same size as the Imperium, but they are certainly more common than Space Marines.

Battlesuits would be mass produced, they are certainly not rare.

Brother Coa wrote:

Ok, I agree here. But they are only as good as at get. I would still pick Longlas every day over Railgun.

Rules wise yes, fluff wise no. ( remember that rules serve to balance the army's on table, otherwise Astartes would be unstoppable )
In fluff single Astartes with Bolter is more deadlier then a team of FW with Pulse Rifles.
Also Pulse Rifle is weaker then Bolter in fluff, due to Tau decreasing her power to add to stability and accuracy.

Railrifles are not really the tau version a Longlas. The Longlas is a sniper, a Railrifle is a long range light anti-armour weapon. Different purposes.

A Bolter is rarer than a pulse-rifle. We haven't really had a fluff-consistant description of the power of either weapon though.

Brother Coa wrote:

Rules wise yes, fluff wise no. ( remember that rules serve to balance the army's on table, otherwise Astartes would be unstoppable )
.

i call shenanigans on the "if marines were represented in game terms as they were in the fluff" argument. if marines are being represented as per the fluff, then so is everyone else. tyranids with X100 your points values, recycling every unit, and a special rule saying "you can never win agaist tyranids. the best you can hope for is to hold them off a bit longer". eldar would win on a 2+ as they killed the opponent commanders grandfather 80 years ago, thereby making this current battle never happen. *shrug* if thew tau were represented as per the background i wouldnt have anything on the board. id be sniing you from a tennis court distance away. and my guns would shred armour like paper.

Brother Coa wrote:
In fluff single Astartes with Bolter is more deadlier then a team of FW with Pulse Rifles.

please note emphasis on the astartes bit. of course a space marine with a bolter and chainsword is better than any dozen fire warriors. its got nothing to do with the bolter though! he's a space marine for feth sake. fire warriors are grunts. one of the emperors finest, and one of the best warriors in the galaxy. but thats the upper limit. "give me 100 space marines, or a thousand other troops" - Rogal Dorn. that said, give a space marine a pulse rifle, and i can guarantee you there will be some fun times.

Brother Coa wrote:
Also Pulse Rifle is weaker then Bolter in fluff, due to Tau decreasing her power to add to stability and accuracy.

Nope. youre thinking of the crisis suit plasma rifle has a decreased power output to add to stability. the tau pulse rifle is more powerful. full stop. there is no fluff anywhere saying they decrease its power of the pulse rifle for accuracy. (if they did, why then is it str5? maybe it was originally str6? )

the stats represent it as a more powerful gun because its a more powerful gun, not in spite of it. in fact, there are references in the tau literature, specifically their index:xenos stating how it is more powerful than abolter, and can even match the heavy bolters in raw power output, but it lacks the ability to crack armour like a heavy bolter.

ive never read any references anywhere in the fluff stating that the bolter was more powerful. you'll have to show me your references, or it didnt happen.

You know at taros the tau where outnumbered over 10 to 1. Not even counting the SM or titans. They still won, so dose that mean that one FW is = 10 guardsmen. And if one SM is also = 10 guards men. Something to think about.

You know at Taros that there was never any knockdown, dragout slugfests so numbers were irrelevant.

Kanluwen wrote:You know at Taros that there was never any knockdown, dragout slugfests so numbers were irrelevant.

I don't get why that matters, but I mainly posted to point out that the rations are simply crazy. Something I don't think most people get. They tend to describe the ratios of 1vs3 1vs5, but the actual ratios are much higher. Mostly because people over estimate the tau presence. There regiments can be as small as 6 people.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You know at Taros that there was never any knockdown, dragout slugfests so numbers were irrelevant.

I don't get why that matters

Really? You don't get why the fact that the weight of numbers never actually was brought to bear matters?

but I mainly posted to point out that the ratios are simply crazy. Something I don't think most people get. They tend to describe the ratios of 1vs3 1vs5, but the actual ratios are much higher. Mostly because people over estimate the tau presence.

And you underestimate it. We have no exact numbers, just suppositions from the Imperium's point of view.

You also aren't counting the PDF which was operating alongside the Tau, the population of slave miners who turned to the Tau, etc which were part of the Tau's forces but not the Cadre proper.

Their regiments can be as small as 6 people.

No, they can't be.
Unless you're talking about Crisis Suit strike forces--and if you're counting a Crisis Suit as a "single Fire Warrior", then I can count a Sentinel as a "single Guardsman".

All is fair in love and war.

I forgot about the PDF, what battles did they fight in anyway.

I went back and checker. I was a little off. You can have an optimized stealth group for 12 FW. You can have an armored interdiction cadre for less. You can't have a battlesuit team by them selves they come in groups of 4 teams.

nomotog wrote:All is fair in love and war.

Sure it is.

And while we're talking about the weight of numbers: the only time the Tau committed a large number of their forces to an operation was the hydroplant assault against the Elysians.
Why?
Because the Tau knew that if it came to a slugging match over a critical juncture, their number was up--no matter how much air superiority they have.

I forgot about the PDF, what battles did they fight in anyway.

Most of the ones in the city? The PDF also had control of the orbital defense batteries and air defense batteries.

I went back and checker. I was a little off. You can have an optimized stealth group for 12 FW. You can have an armored interdiction cadre for less. You can't have a battlesuit team by them selves they come in groups of 4 teams.

So either way, you cannot have a "regiment of 4 men". You can have small groups of battlesuits, but not the actual Fire Warriors.

Taros:
No knock-down drag outs were fought on Taros because the Tau don't fight that way. The Tau war doctrine is all about the right amount of force applied at the right time. Patient Hunter/ Killing Blow; it's in fluff (codex). Why play by the IoM's rules when you can control the battlefield?

Ever seen a farsight bomb? Suit units are neither rare nor difficult to produce. The codex says that every firewarrior that lives a certain number of years in service has the opportunity to become a suit pilot; some don't, some aren't viable candidates, some stay with their unit and some go on to be a member of an Ethereal Honor Guard. But even taking this into account, the numbers of suits in fluff would be quite large.

Thread:
The problem with these threads is that there are a number of people on this board that hate the Tau (a made-up faction in a made-up universe).

The OP didn't create this thread for them to come in and have the usual argument about the usual things and how 1 space marine can single handedly wipe out the whole universe and still have time to stop for lunch on the way to the Eye of Terror. He/She asked a question for fluff on a campaign that he/she's writing. Coa had to come in and stir up the usual Tau vs. IoM nonsense instead of just answering the question and staying on topic.

It annoys me that as a Tau player I can't read a single thread about Tau without seeing Coa and 1Hadq come in and start a fight. We all get that you don't like the Tau faction and you don't like people that play Tau; do you really need to come in and derail every thread that even mentions Tau?

Sorry to be off-topic.
/rant

agnosto wrote:Taros:
No knock-down drag outs were fought on Taros because the Tau don't fight that way. The Tau war doctrine is all about the right amount of force applied at the right time. Patient Hunter/ Killing Blow; it's in fluff (codex). Why play by the IoM's rules when you can control the battlefield?

Ever seen a farsight bomb? Suit units are neither rare nor difficult to produce. The codex says that every firewarrior that lives a certain number of years in service has the opportunity to become a suit pilot; some don't, some aren't viable candidates, some stay with their unit and some go on to be a member of an Ethereal Honor Guard. But even taking this into account, the numbers of suits in fluff would be quite large.

Thread:
The problem with these threads is that there are a number of people on this board that hate the Tau (a made-up faction in a made-up universe).

The OP didn't create this thread for them to come in and have the usual argument about the usual things and how 1 space marine can single handedly wipe out the whole universe and still have time to stop for lunch on the way to the Eye of Terror. He/She asked a question for fluff on a campaign that he/she's writing. Coa had to come in and stir up the usual Tau vs. IoM nonsense instead of just answering the question and staying on topic.

It annoys me that as a Tau player I can't read a single thread about Tau without seeing Coa and 1Hadq come in and start a fight. We all get that you don't like the Tau faction and you don't like people that play Tau; do you really need to come in and derail every thread that even mentions Tau?

Sorry to be off-topic.
/rant

I only joined last month, and i've noticed the same thing. There doesn't seem to be any actual proof of anything they say most of the time, or twist things completely to work in their favour. No idea why people seem to hate the Tau so much.

Rules wise yes, fluff wise no. ( remember that rules serve to balance the army's on table, otherwise Astartes would be unstoppable )

That does not support the pulse rifle being weaker. The stats in the game are relative to how powerful they are in the fluff, it's not going to have better stats on tabletop but be worse in fluff. Also remember it's not just Space Marines who get Bolt weapons in TableTop.

agnosto wrote:Taros:
No knock-down drag outs were fought on Taros because the Tau don't fight that way. The Tau war doctrine is all about the right amount of force applied at the right time. Patient Hunter/ Killing Blow; it's in fluff (codex). Why play by the IoM's rules when you can control the battlefield?

Which still means that the number of Imperial troops present on the planet means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, now doesn't it?

I know the Tau "don't fight that way". The Imperium, however, does.
The weight of numbers means nothing when those numbers cannot be put to effect.

I should also add that the Imperium isn't just about weight of numbers. Cadian regiments, Elysian regiments, and more all utilize "the right amount of force applied at the right time" as well. We just do not see that portrayed on the tabletop because people don't want to see that. They want to see the "human wave" tactics.

Ever seen a farsight bomb? Suit units are neither rare nor difficult to produce. The codex says that every firewarrior that lives a certain number of years in service has the opportunity to become a suit pilot; some don't, some aren't viable candidates, some stay with their unit and some go on to be a member of an Ethereal Honor Guard. But even taking this into account, the numbers of suits in fluff would be quite large.

So now you're using the tabletop as evidence of fluff?

Suits, in the fluff, actually ARE difficult to produce. They actually ARE relatively rare. They're not Dreadnought or Terminator levels of rare, but they're not exactly common.
If suits were common, every Fire Warrior would be equipped with one.

Thread:
The problem with these threads is that there are a number of people on this board that hate the Tau (a made-up faction in a made-up universe).

The OP didn't create this thread for them to come in and have the usual argument about the usual things and how 1 space marine can single handedly wipe out the whole universe and still have time to stop for lunch on the way to the Eye of Terror. He/She asked a question for fluff on a campaign that he/she's writing. Coa had to come in and stir up the usual Tau vs. IoM nonsense instead of just answering the question and staying on topic.

Then report him.
It's really that simple.

As per the topic though, we don't have enough information about human/Tau tech interactions to make any informed statements. The closest is we had a piece about the Spyrer hunting-rigs being Tau engineered.

It annoys me that as a Tau player I can't read a single thread about Tau without seeing Coa and 1Hadq come in and start a fight. We all get that you don't like the Tau faction and you don't like people that play Tau; do you really need to come in and derail every thread that even mentions Tau?

Sorry to be off-topic.
/rant

Report them. I know you might think it silly, but it's the only way to get the message across that it will not be tolerated.

Kanluwen wrote:

Suits, in the fluff, actually ARE difficult to produce. They actually ARE relatively rare. They're not Dreadnought or Terminator levels of rare, but they're not exactly common.
If suits were common, every Fire Warrior would be equipped with one.
[

Where does it say in fluff they are difficult to produce? They are fairly common as they are the main combat method for Tau veterans. They certainly would not equip all Fire Warriors with them, it's not worth giving untrained new Firewarriors a Battlesuit as they will not know how to use it properly and have not earned it. You don't see entire Guardsmen regiments going round in full carapace armour using hellguns or hotshot lasguns outside of Stormtrooper/Elite regiments even though they are common.

yes my fellow Tau enthusiasts, this is the state of Tau discussion on Dakka, ( and why I had placed a self imposed moritorium on responding in these threads) certain individuals always post the same rhetoric about the same points in every Tau oriented thread regardless if its about weapons or cooking equipment.

But as to the fluff basics of the Pulse rifles..its actually a tiny plasma pulse, as per IA:3

The Weapon generates a induction field, which is used to propel a particle.
This particle reacts to the field by breaking down into a plasma state ( refered to as a pulse )

pg : 80

and XV based suits are limited on a standard issue basis, but can be concentrated and massed for operations, such is the inherent fluid command and logistics structure of the Tau Cadre system.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Suits, in the fluff, actually ARE difficult to produce. They actually ARE relatively rare. They're not Dreadnought or Terminator levels of rare, but they're not exactly common.
If suits were common, every Fire Warrior would be equipped with one.

Where does it say in fluff they are difficult to produce?

Production is something which has multiple stages. It requires resources.

The Tau Empire has finite resources. This is the biggest problem they have. They do not have the resources to mass-scale produce them and continue the research they do.

They are fairly common as they are the main combat method for Tau veterans. They certainly would not equip all Fire Warriors with them, it's not worth giving untrained new Firewarriors a Battlesuit as they will not know how to use it properly and have not earned it.

I'm treading very carefully here, but consider this.

"Veterancy" for Tau is 8 years of service. That's absolutely nothing for the "hardcore" Guard regiments like the Krieg or Cadians or even the Elysians. It's about 5-6 years for them to go from what's considered a "recruit"/"conscript" to a full Trooper.
Add to it that those Guardsmen are going to see far more actual combat than a Fire Warrior of the equivalent age, and you'll see why people rank Guardsmen a smidge higher than Fire Warriors in terms of combat potency.

That doesn't mean "Fire Warriors are bad!". It means that there's a gap between the two. It's like comparing a regular infantryman to a Special Forces veteran.

You don't see entire Guardsmen regiments going round in full carapace armour using hellguns or hotshot lasguns outside of Stormtrooper/Elite regiments even though they are common.

Carapace armor you do see on "entire Guardsmen regiments" actually.

Hellguns aren't issued en masse for the same reason as Crisis Suits and Railrifles: they require higher levels of maintaining for diminishing returns.

agnosto wrote:

Thread:
The problem with these threads is that there are a number of people on this board that hate the Tau (a made-up faction in a made-up universe).

It annoys me that as a Tau player I can't read a single thread about Tau without seeing Coa and 1Hadq come in and start a fight. We all get that you don't like the Tau faction and you don't like people that play Tau; do you really need to come in and derail every thread that even mentions Tau?

Sorry to be off-topic.
/rant

Isn't it nice to be mentioned?
If there is a REAL problem, tell me.

But I doubt it. The issue is and stays:
- no matter how hard you try, sooner or later a fan boy of the blue grey faction chimes in, gets angry it isn't about how awesome his choice of gw crack is and starts to piss on another fictional group.
- next step is the usual response,which adapts to the tone.
- then those super nice fans who can't be bothered to reply to the OP in the first place step in to tell everyone why they are soo sad.

Maybe just for once: don't reply to someone if you are not interested. There is no way to keep a thread nice if all you see is idiotic
" but we have this and this and this.." like youre in a GW store....

Post history in this thread:

My first post here: ( 6th and ON topic )
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/423280.page#3793949
Second one: ( 9th and a reply to a misconception )
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/423280.page#3794172
Third at: ( 14th and an attempt to stay with "interaction" instead of the topic change from another poster )
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/423280.page#3794299
Then 60 posts without ME. See? I didn't bother to correct you guys, but instead of being happy to get away with your interpretation, you feel its neccessary to throw out false accusations?

If you dared to look, I was ON topic. Why don't you go and criticize those who veered off?

Mentlegen324 wrote:
I only joined last month, and i've noticed the same thing. There doesn't seem to be any actual proof of anything they say most of the time, or twist things completely to work in their favour. No idea why people seem to hate the Tau so much.

Got any proof for this "hate" ?

May I suggest to get YOUR facts straight? Points at Farsight. Points at the person giving YOU the source for it. And I know you have edited your post afterwards, which I don't mind but still to run with " has no proof" ? Aren't there all these 'in the know' people to help you out?
Wait. They won't.
So please go forth and move this off topic to the same idiotic " my dudes have the bestest tech" instead of the original subject.
Just refrain from things like "user x" has twisted this and that without evidence.
Like Kan said, there is always the triangle of friendship.

nomotog wrote:You know at taros the tau where outnumbered over 10 to 1. Not even counting the SM or titans. They still won, so dose that mean that one FW is = 10 guardsmen. And if one SM is also = 10 guards men. Something to think about.

To Guard defense, they didn't outnumber the Tau 10 to 1. Krieg Regiment never arrived and Briomock was destroyed before it could land at all.
On the ground it was water and supply shortage that eventually led to Guard defeat. And if someone got outnumbered on Taros it was Elysians at refinery.

Got any proof for this "hate" ?

May I suggest to get YOUR facts straight? Points at Farsight. Points at the person giving YOU the source for it. And I know you have edited your post afterwards, which I don't mind but still to run with " has no proof" ? Aren't there all these 'in the know' people to help you out?
Wait. They won't.
So please go forth and move this off topic to the same idiotic " my dudes have the bestest tech" instead of the original subject.
Just refrain from things like "user x" has twisted this and that without evidence.
Like Kan said, there is always the triangle of friendship.

I'll just PM you it instead of going off-topic.

Kanluwen wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Suits, in the fluff, actually ARE difficult to produce. They actually ARE relatively rare. They're not Dreadnought or Terminator levels of rare, but they're not exactly common.
If suits were common, every Fire Warrior would be equipped with one.

Where does it say in fluff they are difficult to produce?

Production is something which has multiple stages. It requires resources.

The Tau Empire has finite resources. This is the biggest problem they have. They do not have the resources to mass-scale produce them and continue the research they do.

They are fairly common as they are the main combat method for Tau veterans. They certainly would not equip all Fire Warriors with them, it's not worth giving untrained new Firewarriors a Battlesuit as they will not know how to use it properly and have not earned it.

I'm treading very carefully here, but consider this.

"Veterancy" for Tau is 8 years of service. That's absolutely nothing for the "hardcore" Guard regiments like the Krieg or Cadians or even the Elysians. It's about 5-6 years for them to go from what's considered a "recruit"/"conscript" to a full Trooper.
Add to it that those Guardsmen are going to see far more actual combat than a Fire Warrior of the equivalent age, and you'll see why people rank Guardsmen a smidge higher than Fire Warriors in terms of combat potency.

That doesn't mean "Fire Warriors are bad!". It means that there's a gap between the two. It's like comparing a regular infantryman to a Special Forces veteran.

You don't see entire Guardsmen regiments going round in full carapace armour using hellguns or hotshot lasguns outside of Stormtrooper/Elite regiments even though they are common.

Carapace armor you do see on "entire Guardsmen regiments" actually.

Hellguns aren't issued en masse for the same reason as Crisis Suits and Railrifles: they require higher levels of maintaining for diminishing returns.

Carapace armour is seen on entire regiments, but not Hellguns/hotshots and carapace armour at the same time. The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training, but it's real experience they lack - same with the Air Caste pilots. While 5-6 years might be a short amount of time for a guardsman, Tau do not live as long as humans.

Now to my defense it is true that every time I see a thread related to Tau my stomach hurt because I know how it will proceed. And to point out that it is always that Tau players who start talking to the OP about how Tau tech is pure awesomeness, I am just trying to balance things and then Railguns came to order then battlesuits then Taros...
Maybe it is for the best if I keep my mouth shut and let Tau players enjoy their fantasy.

As for topic, we were kind off on topic because we talked about technology with is the part of OP question. And I think someone answered that Tau would not use Imperial tech at all, but their own. While they would give some of their own technology in trade relationships.

Carapace armour is seen on entire regiments, but not Hellguns/hotshots and carapace armour at the same time.

There's a reason for that. I even gave it in my post.

Hellguns require a lot more maintaining. It's the same reason that the Tau do not issue Crisis Suits or Railrifles to every single Fire Warrior.

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

but it's real experience they lack - same with the Air Caste pilots. While 5-6 years might be a short amount of time for a guardsman, Tau do not live as long as humans.

Which is my biggest point. The Fire Warriors can be as well-equipped and trained as you want them to be: it won't matter one lick in actual combat. Farsight's troops are the exception, not necessarily the rule.

Kanluwen wrote:

Carapace armour is seen on entire regiments, but not Hellguns/hotshots and carapace armour at the same time.

There's a reason for that. I even gave it in my post.

Hellguns require a lot more maintaining. It's the same reason that the Tau do not issue Crisis Suits or Railrifles to every single Fire Warrior.

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

but it's real experience they lack - same with the Air Caste pilots. While 5-6 years might be a short amount of time for a guardsman, Tau do not live as long as humans.

Which is my biggest point. The Fire Warriors can be as well-equipped and trained as you want them to be: it won't matter one lick in actual combat. Farsight's troops are the exception, not necessarily the rule.

I know you pointed out the reason, i was just saying you don't see both like i origionally said

Not sure what could be defined as an average Guardsman, but ones such as Cadians or DKoK are likely to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of training.

Brother Coa wrote:Now to my defense it is true that every time I see a thread related to Tau my stomach hurt because I know how it will proceed. And to point out that it is always that Tau players who start talking to the OP about how Tau tech is pure awesomeness, I am just trying to balance things and then Railguns came to order then battlesuits then Taros...
Maybe it is for the best if I keep my mouth shut and let Tau players enjoy their fantasy.

As for topic, we were kind off on topic because we talked about technology with is the part of OP question. And I think someone answered that Tau would not use Imperial tech at all, but their own. While they would give some of their own technology in trade relationships.

Tau definately do not have pure awesomeness tech. In comparasion to the imperial equivalents, in many cases it would be more advanced or efficient - but that does not mean it is better.

Kanluwen wrote:

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

This is a very important question if you want to compare Guard with something.
Not every Guardsman in the galaxy is trained the same, you must note some for us to compare.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Carapace armour is seen on entire regiments, but not Hellguns/hotshots and carapace armour at the same time.

There's a reason for that. I even gave it in my post.

Hellguns require a lot more maintaining. It's the same reason that the Tau do not issue Crisis Suits or Railrifles to every single Fire Warrior.

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

but it's real experience they lack - same with the Air Caste pilots. While 5-6 years might be a short amount of time for a guardsman, Tau do not live as long as humans.

Which is my biggest point. The Fire Warriors can be as well-equipped and trained as you want them to be: it won't matter one lick in actual combat. Farsight's troops are the exception, not necessarily the rule.

I know you pointed out the reason, i was just saying you don't see both like i origionally said

And I'm pointing out that, again, there's a reason. It's not a question of resources or production.

It's a question of logistics. Hellguns can break down in the field.

Not sure what could be defined as an average Guardsman, but ones such as Cadians or DKoK are likely to be on the higher end of the scale in terms of training.

Except the reason they're on the higher end of the scale for training is because of experience.
It's a vicious cycle.

How is something that is more advanced or efficient not better. what standers are you going by?

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

The Tau seem to be better than an average guardsman in terms of training

What are we defining as an 'average Guardsman'?

This is a very important question if you want to compare Guard with something.
Not every Guardsman in the galaxy is trained the same, you must note some for us to compare.

Considering Cadia is a fortress world, and they all must serve for atleast 4 years and would be well trained, Cadians are probably better than an 'average Guardsman' as most do not come from fortress or highly militarized worlds.

nomotog wrote:How is something that is more advanced or efficient not better. what standers are you going by?

As an example, the Tau Custodian battleship could be considered more advanced than many imperial ships, but that doesn't make it better. It has a Grand Cruiser's hull value instead of a battleships. In regards to the efficiency, something might be better at the job it does, but that does not make it more advanced technologically.

nomotog wrote:How is something that is more advanced or efficient not better.

You want a real life comparrison?

German Tiger Tank and Soviet T-34, Battle at Kursk.
Who won?

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:How is something that is more advanced or efficient not better.

You want a real life comparrison?

German Tiger Tank and Soviet T-34, Battle at Kursk.
Who won?

I don't know.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Considering Cadia is a fortress world, and they all must serve for atleast 4 years and would be well trained, Cadians are probably better than an 'average Guardsman' as most do not come from fortress or highly militarized worlds.

Most Guardsmen start as PDF, serving several years in it. And then get send of to the galaxy.
I would say that Tau Fire Warriors and "average Guardsman" are on the same level when it comes to training, when it comes to equipment FW is far better while Guardsman is more practical. In the end it all depends on how the men are led into battle and Tau are usually the ones who have better commanders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
I don't know.

You are joking, right?

Brother Coa wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Considering Cadia is a fortress world, and they all must serve for atleast 4 years and would be well trained, Cadians are probably better than an 'average Guardsman' as most do not come from fortress or highly militarized worlds.

Most Guardsmen start as PDF, serving several years in it. And then get send of to the galaxy.
I would say that Tau Fire Warriors and "average Guardsman" are on the same level when it comes to training, when it comes to equipment FW is far better while Guardsman is more practical. In the end it all depends on how the men are led into battle and Tau are usually the ones who have better commanders.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nomotog wrote:
I don't know.

You are joking, right?

You can't just throw tank and battle names at people and expect them to understand what you mean. The only thing I know about the two tanks is that the Germans totally dominated any Russian tank in quality and quantity. But I don't think that is what you where going for

Oh different FW have different training and temperaments like guard do.

Brother Coa wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Considering Cadia is a fortress world, and they all must serve for atleast 4 years and would be well trained, Cadians are probably better than an 'average Guardsman' as most do not come from fortress or highly militarized worlds.

Most Guardsmen start as PDF, serving several years in it. And then get send of to the galaxy.
I would say that Tau Fire Warriors and "average Guardsman" are on the same level when it comes to training, when it comes to equipment FW is far better while Guardsman is more practical. In the end it all depends on how the men are led into battle and Tau are usually the ones who have better commanders.

As Tau are in their caste for the entire life, and that caste is their only purpose, they would be trained from a young age and constantly, unlike guardsman unless they come from a highly militarized world. In terms of training, i'd say Tau are better, in terms of experiance, Guardsman are better (Unless it's something like a conscript)

Many Guardsman are picked from the best of the PDF, and fluff depicts the PDF as near-useless, so that's not really saying much.

No, someone obviously didn't read their history...

Ah well...The Battle of Kursk was fought in August of 1943 and it is the biggest tank battle in history of Mankind. Germans had 2,700 tanks while Soviets had 3,600 tanks.

The point is that German tanks were composed of Tiger and Panther tanks, one of the best tanks ever made while Soviets had their T-34's. According to your logic the Germans should have won, but it was not like that. T-34 had smaller gun and had to get close to fire, but it's advantage was it's armor - it was build under an angle and some of the 88 tank shells actually bounced off it's armor rather then penetrating it. Tiger tanks were slower then T-34 and most of them never had a chance to retreat.

Tiger even if it's better in all things then Soviet T-34 was no matched for it in this battle. And that's my point.

Brother Coa wrote:Now to my defense it is true that every time I see a thread related to Tau my stomach hurt because I know how it will proceed. And to point out that it is always that Tau players who start talking to the OP about how Tau tech is pure awesomeness, I am just trying to balance things and then Railguns came to order then battlesuits then Taros...
Maybe it is for the best if I keep my mouth shut and let Tau players enjoy their fantasy.

As for topic, we were kind off on topic because we talked about technology with is the part of OP question. And I think someone answered that Tau would not use Imperial tech at all, but their own. While they would give some of their own technology in trade relationships.

I'm just gonna go ahead now.

And that is not wargaming photo.
Therefore your comment is invalid.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
As Tau are in their caste for the entire life, and that caste is their only purpose, they would be trained from a young age and constantly, unlike guardsman unless they come from a highly militarized world. In terms of training, i'd say Tau are better, in terms of experiance, Guardsman are better (Unless it's something like a conscript)

Tau might be in their caste for their entire life, but the PDF is as well a big option for troops to go in "for life". On many high population worlds with few prospects, the PDF is a way for people to make a better life for themselves.

Many Guardsman are picked from the best of the PDF, and fluff depicts the PDF as near-useless, so that's not really saying much.

Of course the fluff depicts the PDF as "near-useless".

They're always facing things like Ork Waaghs!, Hive Fleets, or Tau invasion(my bad: "Diplomatic Turnover Services") forces. They're outclassed.

You don't expect a militia to be able to hold off a military. They'll be able to punch back, but it sure isn't going to be a victory.

Brother Coa wrote:No, someone obviously didn't read their history...

Ah well...The Battle of Kursk was fought in August of 1943 and it is the biggest tank battle in history of Mankind. Germans had 2,700 tanks while Soviets had 3,600 tanks.

The point is that German tanks were composed of Tiger and Panther tanks, one of the best tanks ever made while Soviets had their T-34's. According to your logic the Germans should have won, but it was not like that. T-34 had smaller gun and had to get close to fire, but it's advantage was it's armor - it was build under an angle and some of the 88 tank shells actually bounced off it's armor rather then penetrating it. Tiger tanks were slower then T-34 and most of them never had a chance to retreat.

Tiger even if it's better in all things then Soviet T-34 was no matched for it in this battle. And that's my point.

OK, but I am having a hard time seeing how this relates to the core question. That was "How can something be more advance or efficient and not be better." This story dosen't answer that. It gives a good example on how better dosen't always win, but dosen't answer the root question.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
You don't expect a militia to be able to hold off a military. They'll be able to punch back, but it sure isn't going to be a victory.

Gosh man your an American you should know better.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
You don't expect a militia to be able to hold off a military. They'll be able to punch back, but it sure isn't going to be a victory.

Gosh man your an American you should know better.

And as a fellow American, you should know that the militias were not untested troops. They were volunteers who'd had experience fighting for the British in wars against the Native American tribes, and adapted the tactics of the Native Americans against the British.

But that's wildly off topic.

nomotog wrote:
OK, but I am having a hard time seeing how this relates to the core question. That was "How can something be more advance or efficient and not be better." This story dosen't answer that. It gives a good example on how better dosen't always win, but dosen't answer the root question.

And here is your answer. Just because something is better doesn't automatically meant that it will always win over something less advanced and efficient. Hence the Orks are perfect example for that.

Brother Coa wrote:

nomotog wrote:
OK, but I am having a hard time seeing how this relates to the core question. That was "How can something be more advance or efficient and not be better." This story dosen't answer that. It gives a good example on how better dosen't always win, but dosen't answer the root question.

And here is your answer. Just because something is better doesn't automatically meant that it will always win over something less advanced and efficient. Hence the Orks are perfect example for that.

Your still missing my question.

I just answered your question.
I don't know what do you want to know?

@All:

These threads are open to all Dakka users: those who love the Tau as well as those who despise them. Put it another, more accurate way: those who emphasize the abilities of the Tau as well as those who emphasize their weaknesses.

Arguing a point is not against our site rules. Personal attacks are.

Let me just add, as a user rather than as a mod, that "you just hate what I like" is not a response to a criticism based in canonical fluff.

Holding a Master's Degree in History I feel I should probably speak up against the blatant misinterpretations and erroneous applications of history in this thread.

Instead I'll move back to the original topic.

The Tau view Imperial tech as antiquated and outdated because they don't understand the rather arcane nature of things like Machine Spirits and Warp based technologies that are frequently found in human tech.

From a technical standpoint, the Tau have generally gotten results as good or better than the Imperium without resorting to the more mystical aspects of human technology. Even Genetor Santiago acknowledges this in his report (Codex: Tau Empire page 20).

Of course the difference in Imperium and Tau philosophies mean that direct equivalents to a lot of Imperial items are not made by the Tau and vce versa (ie infantry special weapons, power armour for basic troops, hover tanks, titans, artificial intelligence drones, etc don't have a direct equivalent on the other side of the fence).

Now, if we can get away from the Inquisition screaming "Heresy" and taking all the Tau tech and killing everyone who uses it for a moment (possible on a shared human/tau colony world, probably a new expansion by the Tau Empire) we can get some interesting interactions going.

1) Humans, unless they have had the opportunity to acclimatize to the nature of Tau technology would likely be very disturbed by it. It doesn't work in ways that they understand and the controls involve little praying or ritual. Instead it is simple push button, flip lever or issue voice commands (once programmed).

2) Tau will have a lot of problems using human technology. Why? because their brains just don't interact with the psychic phenomena associated with it properly. So while Tau may be able to use human devices, they will do so in only a partially functional way and can't fix them when they quickly break down.

So what you'll end up with is neither side really trusting the others technology. The humans not liking the looks and feel of Tau technology (though not arguing with the results) and the Tau not believing the human's technology is reliable or as effective as it's supposed to be.

I don't think the "Machine Spirit" possesses any kind of psychic or metaphysical reality. IIRC, it's a deliberate misunderstanding -- over millennia -- of rudimentary AI (AI on par with what the computer you are currently using). It was extrapolated from there to other machines as even more technological know-how was lost. I don't think any Guardsman believes he must utter a prayer for his lasgun to fire. He might, however, believe that such a prayer might help him be more brave -- and that's something the Tau can probably relate to, even if they don't "pray that way," /Soft Cell reference

Not another Coa versus the Tau thread.

Defending the Mankind as always against the alien, the mutant and the heretic. Ave Imperator!!!

I bet this is Coa´s face right now.

I can't really say because I can't see it under the helmet.

Stay on-topic please.

I have a question regarding OP question: why didn't the Tau tried to reverse engineered Imperial technology? Seems odd for a race that of all others understand how it's technology work.

The Tau find human tech insuperior. Like humans find Tau tech insuperior.

Brother Coa wrote:I have a question regarding OP question: why didn't the Tau tried to reverse engineered Imperial technology? Seems odd for a race that of all others understand how it's technology work.

They do reverse engineer things, that's how they made a Warp-drive in the first place - a ship of some sort crashed near them.

The thing is, what Imperial tech (That the Tau have likely got their hands on) would actually be worth them reverse engineering? There isn't really anything the Imperium uses that they could get their hands on equipment, that the Tau really need.

The Tau don't reverse engineer a lot of Imperium Tech for the following reasons:

1) A lot of technology the Imperium has the Tau see no use for due to philosophical differences between the way the Tau do things and the way the imperium do things.

2) In many of the situations in which the Tau and the Imperium use tech to the same end the Tau tech is already equal to or superior to the Imperial equivalent

3) In the cases that the Imperium tech is something they would actually be interested in and is notably superior to the Tau tech, the Tau have problems understanding technology that requires the belief (and low level pyschic power) of a human mind to function. As a result they dismiss it as crude and inferior and are unable to learn accurate lessons from the device.

So the end result is that in most cases, Imperium tech in Tau hands becomes a situation of either don't want it or can't get it to work right/the same way.

Jefffar wrote:The Tau don't reverse engineer a lot of Imperium Tech for the following reasons:

1) A lot of technology the Imperium has the Tau see no use for due to philosophical differences between the way the Tau do things and the way the imperium do things.

This has no basis in anything published.

2) In many of the situations in which the Tau and the Imperium use tech to the same end the Tau tech is already equal to or superior to the Imperial equivalent

Not true, but if you say so.

There's a great amount of Imperial tech which is "superior" to Tau tech. The difference is, however, that it requires a knowledge that the Imperium itself does not have--much less the Tau.

3) In the cases that the Imperium tech is something they would actually be interested in and is notably superior to the Tau tech, the Tau have problems understanding technology that requires the belief (and low level pyschic power) of a human mind to function. As a result they dismiss it as crude and inferior and are unable to learn accurate lessons from the device.

You've confused humans with Orks, it seems.

What dose the IoM have that the tau would want? No one mention warp drives we all know about the warp drive debate.

nomotog wrote:What dose the IoM have that the tau would want? No one mention warp drives we all know about the warp drive debate.

So no one mention the single most important thing which distinguishes the Imperium from the Tau?

Warp drives are pretty dang important. They're what make the Imperium of Man a galaxy-spanning empire, and the lack of them is what makes the Tau Empire a tiny chunk of space.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:What dose the IoM have that the tau would want? No one mention warp drives we all know about the warp drive debate.

So no one mention the single most important thing which distinguishes the Imperium from the Tau?

Warp drives are pretty dang important. They're what make the Imperium of Man a galaxy-spanning empire, and the lack of them is what makes the Tau Empire a tiny chunk of space.

That is all true, but I bloody know all that. We have had massive threads talking and debating about tau warp travel. There is nothing left to lean on that topic. I'm wondering about the other stuff.

Kanluwen wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau don't reverse engineer a lot of Imperium Tech for the following reasons:

1) A lot of technology the Imperium has the Tau see no use for due to philosophical differences between the way the Tau do things and the way the imperium do things.

This has no basis in anything published.

Untrue. The Tau as a matter of doctrine do not use infantry heavy weapons, super heavy tanks or titans. They have the technology to build these things, but choose not to. The Tau Codex specifically discusses the doctrinal decision not to use infantry heavy weapons on page 30, I will try to find a citation for the super heavies and the titans.

2) In many of the situations in which the Tau and the Imperium use tech to the same end the Tau tech is already equal to or superior to the Imperial equivalent

Not true, but if you say so.

There's a great amount of Imperial tech which is "superior" to Tau tech. The difference is, however, that it requires a knowledge that the Imperium itself does not have--much less the Tau.

Why would the Tau take a Lasgun or a Bolter over a Pulse Rifle? The Pulse Rifle has longer range, does more damage.
Why would the Tau take a Sniper Rifle over a Rail Rifle? The Rail Rile is more likely to wound all the most commonly encountered targets on the battlefield, a has superior armour penetration and is better against light vehicles.
Why would the Tau take Flak Armour over their own body Armour? Their Body Armour offers superior protection.
Why would the Tau take a Smoke Launcher over a Disruption Pod? The Smoke Launcher can only be used once and prevents the tank from shooting.
Why would the Tau take a Machine Spirit over a Multi-Tracker? The Multi-Tracker allows the vehicle to fire more weapons.
Why would the Tau take a Jump Pack over a Jet Pack? The Jump Pack has to shut down after every short flight and doesn't help stabilize weapons systems.

and so on.

I will concede that not every place where the Tau and the Imperium use their technogy to do the same thing the Tau do it better, but that was never my point anyway. My point is that a lot of the time the Tau rightly view their tech as superior.

3) In the cases that the Imperium tech is something they would actually be interested in and is notably superior to the Tau tech, the Tau have problems understanding technology that requires the belief (and low level pyschic power) of a human mind to function. As a result they dismiss it as crude and inferior and are unable to learn accurate lessons from the device.

You've confused humans with Orks, it seems.

Jefffar wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Jefffar wrote:The Tau don't reverse engineer a lot of Imperium Tech for the following reasons:

1) A lot of technology the Imperium has the Tau see no use for due to philosophical differences between the way the Tau do things and the way the imperium do things.

This has no basis in anything published.

Untrue. The Tau as a matter of doctrine do not use infantry heavy weapons, super heavy tanks or titans. They have the technology to build these things, but choose not to. The Tau Codex specifically discusses the doctrinal decision not to use infantry heavy weapons on page 30, I will try to find a citation for the super heavies and the titans.

Except you're talking about philosophical differences, not strategic.

2) In many of the situations in which the Tau and the Imperium use tech to the same end the Tau tech is already equal to or superior to the Imperial equivalent

Not true, but if you say so.

There's a great amount of Imperial tech which is "superior" to Tau tech. The difference is, however, that it requires a knowledge that the Imperium itself does not have--much less the Tau.

Why would the Tau take a Lasgun or a Bolter over a Pulse Rifle? The Pulse Rifle has longer range, does more damage.

You're lumping two very unlike things into one comparative category.
To simplify it:
The bolter has several advantages over the pulse rifle. The biggest advantage is that they can be outfitted with variable ammunition types making them far more effective based upon the target engagement. The fact that it's a solid projectile means that one particular foe(Tyranids) also cannot adapt a counter to it like they can energy weapons.
The Lasgun has advantages as well. It requires very little in the way of a logistical train to keep the troops supplied. If necessary, the troops can toss the energy packs into a fire and let them recharge that way.
We have nothing suggesting that the pulse rifle can do anything of that nature. For the Imperium, the Lasgun is a clear choice for the Imperial Guard as it cuts down on logistics and increases the fight time a Guard unit has available to it.

Why would the Tau take a Sniper Rifle over a Rail Rifle? The Rail Rile is more likely to wound all the most commonly encountered targets on the battlefield, a has superior armour penetration and is better against light vehicles.

"Sniper rifle" is an obscenely broad category. The Rail Rifle is not meant to be a sniper rifle, by the by. It was developed by the Tau to fill a role equivalent to the Imperium's plasma gunners.

Why would the Tau take Flak Armour over their own body Armour? Their Body Armour offers superior protection.

In game terms, yes. Flak armor is what the Guard are issued as standard. Kit varies from warzone to warzone however. One of the regiments which fought the Tau, the Brimlock Dragoons, were outfitted exclusively in carapace armor--the very same thing as the Tau's body armor.

It's also worth noting that the Tau "body armor" is just that. it's a highly effective armor plate for the chest, shoulders, and helmet. The rest of the body is relatively unprotected. Guard carapace gear covers the entirety of the soldier.
The fact that it gives the same save as the Tau body armor is silly.

Why would the Tau take a Smoke Launcher over a Disruption Pod? The Smoke Launcher can only be used once and prevents the tank from shooting.

Game terms again. A smoke launcher is able to be more effective against vehicles utilizing LOS weaponry....y'know, like what the Imperium uses.
The disruption pod is a masking effective against high tech enemies. It'd be super-handy against the Imperium's augur shells, but not very much else.
Not showcased in game terms of course, but meh.

Why would the Tau take a Machine Spirit over a Multi-Tracker? The Multi-Tracker allows the vehicle to fire more weapons.

The Machine Spirit repairs the vehicle and can even operate weapons when the crew is incapacitated.

Why would the Tau take a Jump Pack over a Jet Pack? The Jump Pack has to shut down after every short flight and doesn't help stabilize weapons systems.

The jump pack the Imperials are using is delivering an angry superhuman killing machine determined to rip your head off.

The Tau jet pack is delivering a battle suit which is firing its weapons as fast as it can.

Guess which one is going to be more effective 9/10 times?
(Hint: It's not the battle suit).

and so on.

I will concede that not every place where the Tau and the Imperium use their technogy to do the same thing the Tau do it better, but that was never my point anyway. My point is that a lot of the time the Tau rightly view their tech as superior.

And my point is that the Tau have a conceited viewpoint of their technology. They're fledglings taking their first flight out of the nest. They've not seen a quarter of the wonders and terrors of the galaxy, yet they view themselves as masters of it?

They're as vain as the Eldar.

3) In the cases that the Imperium tech is something they would actually be interested in and is notably superior to the Tau tech, the Tau have problems understanding technology that requires the belief (and low level pyschic power) of a human mind to function. As a result they dismiss it as crude and inferior and are unable to learn accurate lessons from the device.

You've confused humans with Orks, it seems.

An item that requires the user's faith and belief to function properly is an example of psychic tech. Seeing as that's the sort of tech being issued to imperial guardsmen, that implies that every human possesses a modicum of psychic power, even if it's so small that they themselves don't realize they have it. The big rule book evens states (on page 112 and 113) that humanity is about to move into a new stage of evolution in which they will become something akin to the Eldar or the Orks, a psychic race through and through.

I would say it is the Tau who are better equipped. But they lack the ferocity and determination of imperial troops.
In the book "Savage scars"
Its bombers to take out broadsides or a near-suicide charge from a space marine that almost lost his life.
And i think the tau lack the 10,000 years of military experiance the imperium has.
Just my two cents.

wow this blew up. I didn't realize the tau were prone to starting up some huge debates. I just got off work will shift through this tomorrow.

I think that Kanluwen explained everything.

Kanluwen wrote:

It's also worth noting that the Tau "body armor" is just that. it's a highly effective armor plate for the chest, shoulders, and helmet. The rest of the body is relatively unprotected. Guard carapace gear covers the entirety of the soldier.
The fact that it gives the same save as the Tau body armor is silly.

Not all Carapace armour does - It can range from complete armoured suits like the ones the Adeptus Arbites wear to individual pieces such as chest plates, helmets, greaves, etc. Wearing carapace armour does not mean they are fully protected. Storm Troopers wear Carapace armour and are not fully covered.

The point was that while there are certain advantages with Imperial Technology, the Tau do not want or need much of it. The Lasgun is the choice for Guardsmen because they are cheap, simple to make, easy to maintain and reliable - but they are not very powerful when compared to Tau pulse rifles. It would not be worth them trading power for reliability or any other advantage, when the whole purpose of the Tau is to lay down massive amounts of firepower.

Tau armour has all the protection at the front - as that is the direction the enemy is most likely to be shooting at them from, which is the same reason they have the large shoulder pad on that side. The chest, shoulders, helmet, and the front of the legs. The only real unprotected part is the left arm, and the back and sides of the legs.

Tau equipment fits their fighting style. It's the reason they don't give infantry squads heavy weapons, or use Titans or super heavies, - Why would they do that when the Battlesuits, Mantas etc can do the same thing better, and much more? Each unit has their own role to carry out.

In regards to Warp Drives, they don't understand the Warp and would not be able to reverse engineer it correctly - although that is how they got their Phased Warp-Drive in the first place, by reverse-engineering a ship that crashed near them.

There is not really anything the Imperium uses - outside of rare or psyker based tech, that the Tau really need at the moment.

Wow, several pages of tau-vs-imperial-tech ranting here, I reckon I'll just reply to OP:

Sageheart wrote:Hey,

I am working on some fluff for a campaign that hosts a Tau/human colony allience, I was wondering if anyone knew any sources or info of how Tau and human tech interact, are they able to be put together, do they function under very different ways, and how much of the Tau's tech is considered hersey by the imperium (just the A.I stuff)

basically I know very little on the Tau, save for the basics (caste system, type of tanks, etc.) so I am looking for any info on the Tau, but mostly the way in which they (the Tau themselves and their tech) interact with humans and their own tech.

Thanks for any feedback!

There's been a lot of mention already as to the differences between Tau and Imperial Philosophy of Science, but I think it might be useful to point out the difference between where they get their tech and how they use it.

Imperial technology is, for the main part, not designed by modern humans; it is copied or adapted from STC blueprints. STC blueprints are left over from the STC machines, one-factory-to-rule-them all devices which originally had a repository of all known technology within them, but were primarily used to print off blueprints for survival tools, the necessary equipment to create a colony on a virgin planet. Got your bulldozers? check. Got your cheap, easily repaired and produced longarm for hunting and homestead protection? check. These blueprints are all that is left of the STC machines, and thus the Imperium is full of practical, non-optimised, reliable equipment.
Case in point, the Rhino, a tractor design found on most pre-imperial worlds made from anything from superdense hyperalloys to wood; powered by anything from fusion cores to steam.

So Imperial technology, as someone mentioned quite accurately earlier, is akin to the AK47, being based not only on the principle of ruggedness and reproducibility, but (crucially) on ancient blueprints that themselves were optimised for ruggedness and reproducibility. Any print-outs that were not used and enshrined, were lost forever. It is without a doubt that pre-imperial infantry weapons would have pooed all over bolters, lasguns, and pulse rifles; but they were harder to maintain and produce, like Tau tech, as others have already said.

In addition, the Imperium of Man (and the Mechanicus) can't really claim to have a Philosophy of Science; they have a Philosophy of Archaeology instead. Rediscovering and copying past designs is how things work.

Therefore, in answer to OP's question, if the Admech presence on a human world were light or minimal, and the humans of that world were to ally themselves with the Tau, the Tau would not wish to use the human technology, but were it to break down, would be able to modify or repair it. They understand the base principles of science that drives the technology itself, up to their own technological level; what they don't do (that the Imperials will) is copy something they don't understand. There probably won't be much cross-pollination though, due to the philosophical differences; the Tau would need to set up schools on those worlds to raise humans in their school of thought.

And Kanluwen, I think the difference between human carapace and tau body armour is akin to the evolutionary steps from full plate mail to demilancer kit in history. Less overall protection, more protection on the vitals. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demi-lancer

I hope I have contributed to this thread in a positive manner.

This aplies to all threads where Tau are mentioned. Coa can chrash threads in just one post. HES OUR GOD!

That is Heresy, there is only the Emperor and he is our shield and protector.
I am merely his humble servant.

I believe I already posted a warning in this thread about staying on-topic. Suspensions to follow.

It would probably be for the best if Coa was just banned. He might not realize it, but what he does is trolling. And that is against the forum rules amirite?

What is unclear about "stay on topic"? For everyone who is constantly complaining about another user dragging a thread down -- please realize that it's posts like these which are the problem. ~Manchu