Blood Ravens Chapter, who could they be descended from, who supports them from the shadows of the Imperium, and what secrets lie within their Libraria?

1) Thousand Sons - the 4th Fellowship left Prospero with the fleet before it was purged, and the Blood Ravens are a fleet-based Chapters who use Thousand Sons colors, not to mention survivors of the 4th Fellowship returning to Prospero after the Heresy were angry about Magnus' actions. One of them, Revuel Arvida, was a corvidae (symbolized by a raven), condemned Magnus as a failure and vowed to continue to fight Chaos. Note that the Blood Ravens follow corvidae traditions, using precognition to predict enemy positions and movements before striking the killing blow. Don't forget the Blood Ravens have an obsession with knowledge like the Thousand Sons, and that Kallista Eris foresaw the 'lost sons' and the 'raven of blood' before the Burning of Prospero.
2) Sons of Horus - Abaddon shows an unhealthy interest in the Blood Ravens in Dark Crusade's non-canon Chaos ending, Chaos Rising, and Retribution. Araghast calls the Blood Ravens 'brothers' in a non-sarcastic fashion (since unlike Eliphas, he doesn't seem to have a sense of humor). This is strange since traditionally, Astartes from different legions call one another 'cousins'.
3) Someone high up in the Mechanicum has blocked inquiries into the Blood Ravens gene-seed origins, which together with the Blood Ravens' obsession with knowledge has led them to join explorators often, indicates close relations with the Mechanicum.
4) The Ordo Malleus has sealed pre-M37 Blood Raven history, indicating knowledge of the Blood Ravens' past that they may be unwilling to have the Ordo Hereticus (which was established at the end of M36) poking around. This together with the fact that Blood Ravens worked with the Grey Knights in the Dark Crusade (and have perfect memories of the campaign) indicate strong connections with the Malleus, who are probably the same ones deflecting inquiries into the nature of the Librarium Sanctorum.

Oh balliox... Mate this thread is going to be set on fire once Kanluwuen comes. When he does all hope is lost...
But It is definitely not a missing legion.

What's wrong with Kanluwen? And nothing wrong with putting forward assumptions with the Blood Ravens' origins. They could be Blood Angels too, with the Black Rage suppressed by the activation of Sanguinius' own precognitive abilities.

Tadashi wrote:What's wrong with Kanluwen? And nothing wrong with putting forward assumptions with the Blood Ravens' origins. They could be Blood Angels too, with the Black Rage suppressed by the activation of Sanguinius' own precognitive abilities.

Indeed, after playing through all of the DoW and DoW 2 games I find the Blood Ravens to be my third Favorite chapter under Ultramarines and Black Templar.

Blood Ravens, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, pre-Heresy Thousand Sons, in descending order. Dislike the Space Wolves the most.

Tadashi wrote:Blood Ravens, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, pre-Heresy Thousand Sons, in descending order. Dislike the Space Wolves the most.

Dark Angels for me come in a very very close fourth for me.

Back to the OP, who do you think they're descended from? Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, Sons of Horus? Or someone else?

Tadashi wrote:Back to the OP, who do you think they're descended from? Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, Sons of Horus? Or someone else?

Going to go for a mix of Thousand Sons and Sons of Horus, I think the simple fact Abbadon places interest in them to be very telling, considering that some one of Abbadons position would not normally care.

Not to also mention the large amount of Pyskers in the Blood Angels as well, I think the fact they are descended from a "Corrupt" Chapter to be great, redemption is always fun.

Especially since a lot of loyalists from the traitor legions from the HH had their fates never revealed, and that Roboutte Guilliman is known for never wasting any advantage. He could have made an arrangement with the Inquisition about those survivors who never became Grey Knights.

Tadashi wrote:Especially since a lot of loyalists from the traitor legions from the HH had their fates never revealed, and that Roboutte Guilliman is known for never wasting any advantage. He could have made an arrangement with the Inquisition about those survivors who never became Grey Knights.

Not to mention the fact that after the HH the Imperium was scrambling to pick up the pieces, so If faced with destroying a new viable chapter that would be loyal to the Imperium that would also be able to field very powerful Psykers they would just pass it along and say yes just because they were not in a strong enough position at the time to be picking and choosing.

And this was before the Imperial Cult so even the Inquisition is more reasonable than it is now.

Tadashi wrote:And this was before the Imperial Cult so even the Inquisition is more reasonable than it is now.

I think really the Grey Knights in Dark Crusade may have been a, reward? per say. We could consider that the Blood Ravens may be a running experiment to see how well a Chapter functions long term that had "Corrupt" Gene-seed.

Gene-seed is not corrupt. It's the nature vs. nurture argument. Look at Garro, Loken and othe loyalists. They were from the traitor legions, but they ultimately became the first Grand Masters of the Grey Knights. Gene-seed could give you a predisposition to certain things: Word Bearers to faith, Thousand Sons to psychic abilities and scholarship, Iron Hands/Iron Warriors to technology, but it doesn't guarantee corruption (unless you use the ones taken from a dead traitor, and not the ones kept secure in Mechanicum vaults).

Tadashi wrote:Gene-seed is not corrupt. It's the nature vs. nurture argument. Look at Garro, Loken and othe loyalists. They were from the traitor legions, but they ultimately became the first Grand Masters of the Grey Knights. Gene-seed could give you a predisposition to certain things: Word Bearers to faith, Thousand Sons to psychic abilities and scholarship, Iron Hands/Iron Warriors to technology, but it doesn't guarantee corruption (unless you use the ones taken from a dead traitor, and not the ones kept secure in Mechanicum vaults).

Oh, sorry, I'm not to well versed on general Space Marine lore.

I personally prefer the 1k sons aproach. I find it funny that some of the worst spouters of "NO loyalists from traitor legions" overlook that several traitors were accepted by into the grey knights of all chapters, including named Sons of Horus and the Death guard.

All indicates toward Thousand Sons, high number of librarians, hints from some BL novels...but nothing of a real prof.

But they are an interesting Chapter, record sealed by Ordo Malleus, having no knowledge about their origins, Chaos renegades joke with them about "brotherhood" etc...

They could be anything: decedents from renegade Legions ( Maybe Thousands Sons, maybe Sons of Horus, maybe Death Guard or maybe mix of all of them ) or maybe a descendants from destroyed Legions II and XI that decided to break of the Ultramarines Legion after Horus Heresy and found a Chapter that resembled one of the lost two. Who knows?

We only know that Chapter history have some sort of terrible secrets that even the Inquisition is sealing it's history from others. Chapter history that worry's even the big I is not a small thing at all.

Tadashi wrote:What's wrong with Kanluwen? And nothing wrong with putting forward assumptions with the Blood Ravens' origins. They could be Blood Angels too, with the Black Rage suppressed by the activation of Sanguinius' own precognitive abilities.

Kan has the reputation for tearing down people's arguments concerning the Blood Ravens...
He has a very good point.
We simply don't know and there is no conclusive evidence either way.
Also people make these at the rate of one every month or so and they never seem to change all that much...

purplefood wrote:

Tadashi wrote:What's wrong with Kanluwen? And nothing wrong with putting forward assumptions with the Blood Ravens' origins. They could be Blood Angels too, with the Black Rage suppressed by the activation of Sanguinius' own precognitive abilities.

Kan has the reputation for tearing down people's arguments concerning the Blood Ravens...
He has a very good point.
We simply don't know and there is no conclusive evidence either way.
Also people make these at the rate of one every month or so and they never seem to change all that much...

He can try as hard as he likes. Space Marines don't go down without a fight, and it's gonna be ugly.

Tadashi wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Tadashi wrote:What's wrong with Kanluwen? And nothing wrong with putting forward assumptions with the Blood Ravens' origins. They could be Blood Angels too, with the Black Rage suppressed by the activation of Sanguinius' own precognitive abilities.

Kan has the reputation for tearing down people's arguments concerning the Blood Ravens...
He has a very good point.
We simply don't know and there is no conclusive evidence either way.
Also people make these at the rate of one every month or so and they never seem to change all that much...

He can try as hard as he likes. Space Marines don't go down without a fight, and it's gonna be ugly.

And Colonel Alexzandvar of the Firehawk 1st Armored shall back the Space Marines!

What ?

Thanks. I appreciate it.

I also support the theory that Blood Ravens originated from loyalist Thousand Sons of the Fourth Fellowship. It just makes the most sense to me. Of course, nothing's certain, but I do believe there's a lot of little clues that point towards it. Most of which have already been mentioned, heh.

One of the leaps of logic I like though is a combination from a couple of books - in A Thousand Sons, it's briefly mentioned in passing that the Sons had a fairly cordial relationship with Eldar.

Then in one of the Blood Raven books, there's that old outpost on a moon that the Ravens had reclaimed and were studying. The outpost turned out to have been a combination of Marine and Eldar construction, built cooperatively to contain a Necron tomb. Some pieces of armour that were found in the lower excavations were mentioned to be red and ivory, but the chapter markings had worn off. The main chars of course assumed it was old Blood Ravens armour, but it was also noted that it was old enough to be from before any recorded Ravens history.

The Farseer in the book also mentioned the cooperation with a Marine chapter - but seemed surprised that there was more than one group of Marines. Basically "So your group is NOT the same as the group we worked with before?" Now, I find it hard to believe that Eldar are thick enough to not have noticed that Marines had different Chapters. What I can believe though is that maybe they didn't recognise the difference between two chapters that used the same colours.

Given all that, I like to believe that the outpost was originally an Eldar/Thousand Sons cooperative project. Over time gak went down, records were lost, and the purpose of the outpost was forgotten. But the Ravens still knew about its existence - "inherited it" so to speak, and repurposed it for themselves.

Of course it's a bit of a stretch, but hey, half the fun of 40K is the fluff speculation.

Skits wrote:I also support the theory that Blood Ravens originated from loyalist Thousand Sons of the Fourth Fellowship. It just makes the most sense to me. Of course, nothing's certain, but I do believe there's a lot of little clues that point towards it. Most of which have already been mentioned, heh.

One of the leaps of logic I like though is a combination from a couple of books - in A Thousand Sons, it's briefly mentioned in passing that the Sons had a fairly cordial relationship with Eldar.

Then in one of the Blood Raven books, there's that old outpost on a moon that the Ravens had reclaimed and were studying. The outpost turned out to have been a combination of Marine and Eldar construction, built cooperatively to contain a Necron tomb. Some pieces of armour that were found in the lower excavations were mentioned to be red and ivory, but the chapter markings had worn off. The main chars of course assumed it was old Blood Ravens armour, but it was also noted that it was old enough to be from before any recorded Ravens history.

The Farseer in the book also mentioned the cooperation with a Marine chapter - but seemed surprised that there was more than one group of Marines. Basically "So your group is NOT the same as the group we worked with before?" Now, I find it hard to believe that Eldar are thick enough to not have noticed that Marines had different Chapters. What I can believe though is that maybe they didn't recognise the difference between two chapters that used the same colours.

Given all that, I like to believe that the outpost was originally an Eldar/Thousand Sons cooperative project. Over time gak went down, records were lost, and the purpose of the outpost was forgotten. But the Ravens still knew about its existence - "inherited it" so to speak, and repurposed it for themselves.

Of course it's a bit of a stretch, but hey, half the fun of 40K is the fluff speculation.

You forgot Age of Darkness: Rebirth. Sergeant Revuel Arvida said to himself "...whatever tragedy happened here was beyond Magnus' power to prevent, and so it would be folly to retain faith in his stratagems...". He also declared that he had never shared the Legion's 'excessive faith' in their Primarch, even when the Legion was whole. Basically, he was renouncing Magnus the Red, and would fight Chaos with what other survivors of the 4th Fellowship by using the Thousand Sons tactics: "...he would neither rest nor stumble...until everything that could give him an advantage and a weapon to employ...knowledge is power". The last part of the story is rich in symbolism, the raven of the corvidae lit by fire, symbolizing the Blood Ravens' "rebirth" from the ashes of the Thousand Sons, and Arvida disappearing into the shadows, symbolizing the Blood Ravens own forgotten (deliberately even, so the Blood Ravens couldn't turn back) past.

I didn't forget it, I just said that most clues had been mentioned already. I'd much rather speculate about the more elusive/grasping at straws ones, hehe.

And yeah, Rebirth is one of the biggest and most blatant clues.

I think there are serious pieces of fluff around to definately suggest a connection to the Thousand Sons Legion.
To reinforce this, is the fact that they are one of the most Psyker abundant Chapters in the Imperium and thrive on Knowledge above all else.

I have also heard reference somewhere, possibly in the Dawn of War novels to also suggest a connection to one of the missing primarchs

Hopefully we will never know for sure. The hints towards the Thousand Sons are far from subtle and obviously intentional, but the Blood Ravens' mysterious origins are one of the few interesting things about them. There's nothing wrong with keeping people guessing, or with letting the fans draw their own conclusions from the available fluff.

I recon that the Blood Raven chapter operates it's secrets much like the Dark Angels with oly a small amount of people who know the truth

The Blood Ravens connection to the Thousand Sons only makes sense if it originally had been written with that fluff in mind.

It wasn't. "Rebirth" is retroactively repairing the damage done by C.S. Goto. The Blood Raven connection is the dumbest thing that Black Library has allowed to be done, as it's not hinting at anything mysterious--it's slapping you upside the head with it.

Just out of curiosity, what "damage" was done by C.S. Goto that "Rebirth" is repairing?

Kanluwen wrote:The Blood Ravens connection to the Thousand Sons only makes sense if it originally had been written with that fluff in mind.

It wasn't. "Rebirth" is retroactively repairing the damage done by C.S. Goto. The Blood Raven connection is the dumbest thing that Black Library has allowed to be done, as it's not hinting at anything mysterious--it's slapping you upside the head with it.

Even if you ignore BL publishings, logically, the Blood Ravens could only be descended from three Legions. According to White Dwarf, the Blood Ravens have lots of Librarians, more so than would be expected from a Codex Chapter, and follow corvidae tactics. So, one: Thousand Sons and Magnus the Red. They don't suffer the flesh-change because they don't practice sorcery. Second: Blood Angels and Sanguinius, who had precognitive abilities. It's not impossible that the Red Thirst and the Black Rage are suppressed by the Sanguinius' psychic abilities. And last, the Night Lords and Conrad Kurze. Problem with that is, Kurze's visions drove him mad, which hasn't happened to the Blood Ravens.

ARe you sure about the night lords? Pyskers always receive visions of the future it just matters if they want.

What I meant was only three Primarchs had any psychic abilities of note. Magnus, Sanguinius, and Kurze, but Kurze couldn't handle the strain and lost it. Sanguinius refused to give up and fought to the end, while Magnus' erudition kept him sane, at least until he discovered he was just a pawn of Tzeentch.

Tadashi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Blood Ravens connection to the Thousand Sons only makes sense if it originally had been written with that fluff in mind.

It wasn't. "Rebirth" is retroactively repairing the damage done by C.S. Goto. The Blood Raven connection is the dumbest thing that Black Library has allowed to be done, as it's not hinting at anything mysterious--it's slapping you upside the head with it.

Even if you ignore BL publishings, logically, the Blood Ravens could only be descended from three Legions.

"Logically", they could be from anywhere. I'll explain why in a bit.

According to White Dwarf, the Blood Ravens have lots of Librarians, more so than would be expected from a Codex Chapter,

I have the White Dwarf where the article was printed. It says they have many psykers not that they are all Librarian grade.

and follow corvidae tactics.

It says absolutely nothing like this. Want to know why?

Because the "Corvidae" title did not come about until last year, when the Thousand Sons link was put forth by C.S. freaking Goto years ago.

So, one: Thousand Sons and Magnus the Red. They don't suffer the flesh-change because they don't practice sorcery.

Strike one. Every single member of the Thousand Sons suffered from the flesh-change. Hence why the Legion is almost entirely consistent of suits of animated armor, with the Sorcerers being the only ones who have retained their physical bodies.

Second: Blood Angels and Sanguinius, who had precognitive abilities. It's not impossible that the Red Thirst and the Black Rage are suppressed by the Sanguinius' psychic abilities.

Strike two. They do not have "precognitive abilities"--that only happens when they're suffering from the Red Thirst and Black Rage.
Only one member of the Blood Angels and their lineage have conquered it.

And last, the Night Lords and Conrad Kurze. Problem with that is, Kurze's visions drove him mad, which hasn't happened to the Blood Ravens.

Again, this is relatively "new" stuff.

I do not understand this obsession with having the answer. They're not going to tell us. The hamfisted suggestion of Thousand Sons->Blood Ravens in "Rebirth" was to try to counteract C.S. Goto coming out and slapping people upside the head with it.

Tadashi wrote:What I meant was only three Primarchs had any psychic abilities of note. Magnus, Sanguinius, and Kurze, but Kurze couldn't handle the strain and lost it. Sanguinius refused to give up and fought to the end, while Magnus' erudition kept him sane, at least until he discovered he was just a pawn of Tzeentch.

That has nothing to do with Geneseed. The NightLords and the Blood Ravens share no similarities apart from Color.
The Chapter is either descended from the Thousand Sons, Ultramarines, a Lost Legion or the Dark Angels. The point is we don't know!

The only similarities are in color and a few tactics. Until I am proven material that says. THE BLOOD RAVENS ARE THE THOUSAND SONS DESECENDANTS! I will not be persuaded into thinking that they are. It hints but there is no possible way that it can.

Yeah, but even if the corvidae wasn't mentioned in White Dwarf, it still mentions Blood Raven tactics centered around precognition (predicting enemies and such). And I wasn't referring to the Blood Angels themselves, but their Primarch.

And the "tactics centering around precognition" could have absolutely nothing to do with the fact that early on in the Chapter's life, the entirety of the command echelon was killed in ambushes huh?

Even if that's the case, why would the Chapter's pre-M37 history be sealed by the Inquisition? Why does the Mechanicus block all inquiries into the origins of the gene-seed, giving only a circular answer of "...mutation within tolerable parameters..." and such? Either way, even if the Blood Ravens aren't Thousand Sons, the Blood Ravens could be a former Renegade Chapter, which is unlikely since other redeemed renegades still have their histories, or they're descended from a Traitor Legion.

Tadashi wrote:Even if that's the case, why would the Chapter's pre-M37 history be sealed by the Inquisition?

For any number of reasons?

Why does the Mechanicus block all inquiries into the origins of the gene-seed, giving only a circular answer of "...mutation within tolerable parameters..." and such?

Because the Mechanicus blocks all inquiries into the origins of gene-seed period. It's also worth noting that if you'd read the White Dwarf article, there is no specific origin for the gene-seed to trace a lineage.

Either way, even if the Blood Ravens aren't Thousand Sons, the Blood Ravens could be a former Renegade Chapter, which is unlikely since other redeemed renegades still have their histories, or they're descended from a Traitor Legion.

Or they're a Chapter whose original purpose was to be of a completely unknown origin so that THQ could play and establish them as they saw fit.

It's amazing how often the simplest answer trumps all these ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Whether it's in 40k or otherwise, coincidences are for the weak minded and the ignorant. Feel free to ignore the coincidences, it's your loss.

Tadashi wrote:Whether it's in 40k or otherwise, coincidences are for the weak minded and the ignorant. Feel free to accept the coincidences, it's your loss.

Your post makes no sense.

YOU are the one "accepting the coincidences". It's been browbeatingly obvious since the publication of "Rebirth" that it was damage control.
The prophecy from "A Thousand Sons" that everyone oh so loves to cite is done in the same manner as John Edwards' readings of his crowds: as vaguely and generally as possible so anyone can make it fit however they want it to.

Quite frankly this is people's opinions of interpreting the fluff, so until GW comes out and tells us outright that, The Blood Ravens are descended from thousand sons, it's up to peoples opinions.

The problem with that is that some people want to shoot down other people's opinions that the Blood Ravens are descended from a traitor legion or something like that because they don't want to believe it. Talk about disrespectful...if you don't believe they are, then stay away from threads like this.

I'm still wondering - out of genuine curiosity, mind, not a desire to stir things up! - exactly what "damage" was done by C.S. Goto that "Rebirth" is repairing? I've only come into the 40K hobby a year or two ago, and the fluff itself even more recently than that, so I've missed most of the older stuff.

Exactly, it's like for instance me believing that eventually orks are going to crush everything, but then someone coming in and saying, Nah!!! They won't!! I believe that the Blood ravens are descended from the Thousand sons, but that's my belief and I'm not going to force it on anyone who thinks otherwise.

Tadashi wrote:The problem with that is that some people want to shoot down other people's opinions that the Blood Ravens are descended from a traitor legion or something like that because they don't want to believe it.

Because the background forum isn't for opinion. It's for what's written down.

Talk about disrespectful...if you don't believe they are, then stay away from threads like this.

So I should "stay away" from threads because you're spouting information and suppositions which are wrong?

That's a silly reason for me to do anything, really.

Skits wrote:I'm still wondering - out of genuine curiosity, mind, not a desire to stir things up! - exactly what "damage" was done by C.S. Goto that "Rebirth" is repairing? I've only come into the 40K hobby a year or two ago, and the fluff itself even more recently than that, so I've missed most of the older stuff.

C.S. Goto originated this idiotic bit about Blood Ravens being descended from the Thousand Sons.

The Thousand Sons, at the time of his publications, were all accounted for as automatons or traitorous Sorcerers. So there was no wiggle room, at all, for them to be "descended" from them since there was no gene-seed able to be recovered.

"Rebirth" and "A Thousand Sons" introduced a fleet sent away from Prospero at the time of its fall.

The fact that this has nothing to do with opinions is WRONG!!! GW has not said that their not descended from Thousand sons nor have they said they are. Thus this makes it an opinion, your only arguments so far have been: na your wrong and that C.S Groto is rubbish. Prove our opinions otherwise.

How did Goto originate that bit specifically though?

And was it ever specified that all the Sons were accounted for, or was the "all" bit just assumed? Like I said, I'm not familiar with the older background.

Kunjax96 wrote:The fact that this has nothing to do with opinions is WRONG!!!

First off: it does have a lot to do with opinion. However, what it also has a lot to do with is an author who disregarded material like nobody's business. For every whine about Mat Ward, Goto was at least 250% worse.

GW has not said that their not descended from Thousand sons nor have they said they are.

There's a reason for that. Goto stated it. Goto is a writer who, for some unknown reason, was given the video game tie-in novels.

Thus this makes it an opinion, your only arguments so far have been: na your wrong and that C.S Groto is rubbish.Prove our opinions otherwise.

I've done it in about 60-70 other threads on this very same topic.

Most of them before "Rebirth" was even published.

Kanluwen wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The problem with that is that some people want to shoot down other people's opinions that the Blood Ravens are descended from a traitor legion or something like that because they don't want to believe it.

Because the background forum isn't for opinion. It's for what's written down.

Talk about disrespectful...if you don't believe they are, then stay away from threads like this.

So I should "stay away" from threads because you're spouting information and suppositions which are wrong?

That's a silly reason for me to do anything, really.

Skits wrote:I'm still wondering - out of genuine curiosity, mind, not a desire to stir things up! - exactly what "damage" was done by C.S. Goto that "Rebirth" is repairing? I've only come into the 40K hobby a year or two ago, and the fluff itself even more recently than that, so I've missed most of the older stuff.

C.S. Goto originated this idiotic bit about Blood Ravens being descended from the Thousand Sons.

The Thousand Sons, at the time of his publications, were all accounted for as automatons or traitorous Sorcerers. So there was no wiggle room, at all, for them to be "descended" from them since there was no gene-seed able to be recovered.

"Rebirth" and "A Thousand Sons" introduced a fleet sent away from Prospero at the time of its fall.

Why are we debating at all then if not to present our opinions and assumptions on fluff? And are you saying Arvida and the surviving Fourth Fellowship Fleet just disappeared into thin air? Garviel Loken was the last of the traitor legion loyalists to be recruited into the Grey Knights so the Fourth and their fleet can't be part of the Grey Knights, but when you consider Guilliman's not wasting resources, he wouldn't have just thrown away other non-Grey Knight loyalists simply because the Inquisition says otherwise. And the Mechanicus has gene-seed from all legions, even the traitor ones, which were secreted away despite the protests of the Adeptus Terra for an unknown reason.

Skits wrote:How did Goto originate that bit specifically though?

With several throwaway lines in godawful books.

And was it ever specified that all the Sons were accounted for, or was the "all" bit just assumed? Like I said, I'm not familiar with the older background.

It was made pretty specific that all the Sons were dust within their armor, driven by the remnants of their souls infused with the armor.

The Sorcerers were the only exception to this.

If Goto was that bad how come I've never heard of him. So did Goto say they were descended or not? And so far my argument is that this thread has a lot to do with opinions.

All the Thousand Sons on the Planet of the Sorcerers. Even older fluff mentions the Fleet was dispersed from Prospero orbit, and the HH fluff is canon, so the Fleet/Armada was dispatched to the far ends of the galaxy, and until Rebirth their fate was left unknown. Now we know: they were scattered, and on coming back were stunned and horrified at the actions of their brothers and Primarch. Even Captain Kalliston decided not to surrender to Kharn and the World Eaters and have a chance to be reunited with their Legion.

Tadashi wrote:
Why are we debating at all then if not to present our opinions and assumptions on fluff?

There's no "opinion" when something is written there, in black and white.
The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions is locked away in a vault which pretty much only the Emperor or his Custodes can open. That's been "canon" for a long time.

And are you saying Arvida and the surviving Fourth Fellowship Fleet just disappeared into thin air?

No, but they are new. We don't know their story, and won't until it's fully published.

Garviel Loken was the last of the traitor legion loyalists to be recruited into the Grey Knights so the Fourth and their fleet can't be part of the Grey Knights, but when you consider Guilliman's not wasting resources, he wouldn't have just thrown away other non-Grey Knight loyalists simply because the Inquisition says otherwise.

Assumption, again. Nothing has suggested that the "Traitor Legion loyalists" definitively are what founded the Grey Knights. We have more evidence pointing towards them being the founding of the Inquisition.

And the Mechanicus has gene-seed from all legions, even the traitor ones, which were secreted away despite the protests of the Adeptus Terra for an unknown reason.

Uh no. The "Traitor Legion" gene-seed, as I mentioned, is locked away in a vault which the Emperor and his Custodes are the only ones who can open.

Kunjax96 wrote:If Goto was that bad how come I've never heard of him.

Good question. Have you heard of "Multilazorz!"? If so--you've heard of Goto.

So did Goto say they were descended or not?

Yep, pretty much. The problem is that people ran with a line from there where Ahriman calls a Blood Raven "Brother"(which the Traitor Legionnaires do quite commonly to mock the Loyalists), and then Goto kept running with it.

And so far my argument is that this thread has a lot to do with opinions.

Opinions can still be wrong, Kunjax. Simply saying "that's my opinion" isn't an excuse.

Tadashi wrote:All the Thousand Sons on the Planet of the Sorcerers. Even older fluff mentions the Fleet was dispersed from Prospero orbit, and the HH fluff is canon, so the Fleet/Armada was dispatched to the far ends of the galaxy, and until Rebirth their fate was left unknown.

Older fluff made no mention of Astartes "dispersing" from Prospero's orbit.
It was always very made clear that "ALL" the Thousand Sons were on Prospero at the time of its fall.
"Rebirth" introduced a new element, continuing from "A Thousand Sons" and "Prospero Burns".

Now we know: they were scattered, and on coming back were stunned and horrified at the actions of their brothers and Primarch. Even Captain Kalliston decided not to surrender to Kharn and the World Eaters and have a chance to be reunited with their Legion.

Which means nothing.
Plenty of Legionnaires stayed loyal. It's just they were butchered by the Traitors.

Are you referring to the lines from Ahriman to the Raven guy who'd lost his memory? Or some other part? I don't remember the books very well, but that's mostly 'cause my memory's kinda balls, hehe.

I don't consider Ahriman's lines to be as blatantly "the Sons are Ravens!" as some people might think. Sure, it could be that, but it could also just be Ahriman messing with the Raven's (and the readers!) head. He was trying to earn the Raven's trust, after all, and what better way than to suggest a common background? Doesn't necessarily mean that what Ahriman was saying was true. Lies and deception, after all.

If GW didn't want that sort of connection between the Sons and the Ravens being drawn, would they have let the book be published with those lines in there? I find it difficult to believe that GW wouldn't at least give the books a read-over before letting them be published. Even if Goto was the one who originally came up with the idea, GW didn't go "no that's not possible". If anything, they went "hey that could be interesting" and ran with it. I don't see "Rebirth" as correcting an error, but more as expanding on a possibility.

After all, the 40K universe has been, from what I can tell, evolving and expanding over the past... however many years it's existed. Nothing's entirely set in stone. As far as I've heard, even the Primarchs didn't originally exist - they were added later. /shrug

At that point in time, Black Library's process of correcting canon was shall we say...lacking.

Kanluwen, go read up on the founding of the Grey Knights. You'll notice that the survivors of Istvaan III were part of the Astartes chosen by Malcador the Sigilite to go to Titan and form a new Chapter to counter daemonic threats. And as I've said HH novels are canon, so the Armada dispersed, the Fourth Fellowship wandered and were decimated by the World Eaters, then a ranking Son renounced his Primarch. And what's to stop the Emperor ordering the Thousand Sons gene-seed being given to the survivors of the Fourth Fellowship who remained loyal?

So if Goto did say they were desended then why are we having his discussion? And not everything is written in black and white Tadashi, like the missing primarchs and this for instance, I'll go back to that GW has not denied it despite the multiple hints to it, which means it's not entirely wrong as you keep on saying.

When you all say "older fluff", which older fluff specifically are you referring to? Previous codex editions, Horus Heresy: Collected Visions artbooks, other stuff?

Kunjax96 wrote:So if Goto did say they were desended then why are we having his discussion? And not everything is written in black and white Tadashi, like the missing primarchs and this for instance, I'll go back to that GW has not denied it despite the multiple hints to it, which means it's not entirely wrong as you keep on saying.

We're just discussing the possibility they're descended from the Thousand Sons. Since GW has not stated anything, either opinion works. For all we know they could be descended from another Legion entirely. I just don't like it when people try to shoot down other people's opinions for good simply because they don't like it.

I completely agree with the point that they MAY be descended from TS. For the reason that you and I have both been stating.

Tadashi wrote:Kanluwen, go read up on the founding of the Grey Knights. You'll notice that the survivors of Istvaan III were part of the Astartes chosen by Malcador the Sigilite to go to Titan and form a new Chapter to counter daemonic threats.

Page number where that is explicitly stated. I've got the Grey Knights book sitting right in front of me, and while the "survivors of Istvaan III" were certainly part of the Astartes chosen(by the by: you're being too vague in this. There were many survivors of Istvaan III, not just Garro's 8 Astartes. Quite a few Raven Guard survived as well) by Malcador to help found the Grey Knights.

However, they also had plenty of untrained and untested recruits. They also had members of the Traitor Legions "recruited in secret"...you know, much like the Founding of any Chapter in the current canon. They pull veterans from other Chapters to form the command cadre, etc and go from there.

And as I've said HH novels are canon, so the Armada dispersed, the Fourth Fellowship wandered and were decimated by the World Eaters, then a ranking Son renounced his Primarch

I'm very much aware of this.

However the problem is YOU mentioned the "Armada dispersing" as being old fluff. It's not. That piece did not exist until recently, so it's not "old fluff" and it does not negate the fact that Goto's crap peddling is what led to this situation.

And what's to stop the Emperor ordering the Thousand Sons gene-seed being given to the survivors of the Fourth Fellowship who remained loyal?

Absolutely nothing, except that it hasn't been written yet. Presuming it is because it might be is the problem I have with this entire supposition.

Well that and the fact that the Emperor couldn't correct the flaw in the gene-seed, and that's most certainly part of the reason he ordered the Legion purged.

But other than that--nothing!

... When did the Emperor order the Sons to be purged? o_O

From what I understand of the fluff - even the older fluff - the Emperor sent Russ to bring Magnus and his Legion back to Terra for judgement, but Horus changed Russ' orders and basically told Russ "The Emperor's changed his mind - kill them all".

Course, like I said I'm only familiar with the more recent stuff, so... /shrug

Wrong! The Thousand Sons were purged because Horus tricked Russ into burning Prospero instead of bringing Magnus back to Terra to stand trial for breaking the Edicts of Nikaea. And Captains Garro and Loken were among the founding members of the Grey Knights. Honestly, try to get your fluff about the HH right.

Tadashi wrote:Wrong!

Not really. Read the fluff as it stands now.

The Thousand Sons were purged because Horus tricked Russ into burning Prospero instead of bringing Magnus back to Terra to stand trial for breaking the Edicts of Nikaea.

We don't know that yet.
All we know is that the Emperor sent Russ and his Legion, who already have purged TWO Legions, to "make Magnus accountable for his crimes".

And Captains Garro and Loken were among the founding members of the Grey Knights.

NOT WRITTEN DOWN YET BUDDY!

The piece we have currently suggests that Garro and Loken were among the founding members of the Grey Knights, certainly.
However it DOES NOT STATE THEIR ROLE IN THE FOUNDING.

Since you seem to have no concept of how things work, let me explain it to you. For a long time now, the Founding of an Astartes Chapter involves many things. One potential is heroes from other Chapters being given the reins of the newly founded Chapter.

Honestly, try to get your fluff about the HH right.

Honestly, try to remember that the Horus Heresy is just starting to hit its stride in terms of where the novels are at chronologically. You're combining the fluff we already have(Horus diverting Russ) and assuming it will remain the same with the "new" stuff we're getting.

If you know fluff you know Russ was sent to Prospero to take Magnus into custody back to Terra, not to destroy Prospero. And even if they weren't part of the Grey Knights per se, Garro and Loken were still 'traitors' who were recruited by Malcador the Sigilite to serve as part of the fledgling Inquisition and it's Chamber Militants. And even if I were making opinions based on current fluff, there's nothing wrong with that, since your just trying to shoot down opinions that you don't agree with.

Kanluwen wrote:

Honestly, try to get your fluff about the HH right.

Honestly, try to remember that the Horus Heresy is just starting to hit its stride in terms of where the novels are at chronologically. You're combining the fluff we already have(Horus diverting Russ) and assuming it will remain the same with the "new" stuff we're getting.

So you're saying ignore the existing fluff because future fluff might prove it wrong?

... Isn't your reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong because newer fluff contradicts older, pre-existing fluff?

I'm confused.

Tadashi wrote:If you know fluff you know Russ was sent to Prospero to take Magnus into custody back to Terra, not to destroy Prospero.

And if you know fluff, you know that Russ and his Wolves have been recently established to be the Emperor's "executioners".

You don't send an executioner to take prisoners. You send them to kill. The fact that the Wulfen were present should be evidence enough of this.

And even if they weren't part of the Grey Knights per se, Garro and Loken were still 'traitors' who were recruited by Malcador the Sigilite to serve as part of the fledgling Inquisition and it's Chamber Militants.

Once again, you're jumping ahead and filling in blanks.

1) Garro and Loken were NOT traitors.
2)They were also not recruited "to serve as part of the fledgling Inquisition and its Chamber Militants".
3)They were recruited to establish a "defense" against something like this ever happening again...which they did, but we don't actually know how yet.

Kanluwen wrote:
And if you know fluff, you know that Russ and his Wolves have been recently established to be the Emperor's "executioners".

You don't send an executioner to take prisoners. You send them to kill. The fact that the Wulfen were present should be evidence enough of this.

That's actually been under quite a bit of debate in other places I've seen. Just because the Wolves in Prospero Burns SAY they're the Emperor's executioners doesn't necessarily make it true.

Oh yes they were. Members of the Council of Terra wanted them condemned with their Legions, and only Malcador's refusal prevented this. And if Russ was sent to execute Magnus, why then did Horus have to intervene?

Skits wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Honestly, try to get your fluff about the HH right.

Honestly, try to remember that the Horus Heresy is just starting to hit its stride in terms of where the novels are at chronologically. You're combining the fluff we already have(Horus diverting Russ) and assuming it will remain the same with the "new" stuff we're getting.

So you're saying ignore the existing fluff because future fluff might prove it wrong?

Where in the world did I say anything like that?

You're confusing two issues: namely the fact that there's TWO throwaway fanservice lines(One in "A Thousand Sons", the second in "Rebirth") which can be read to suggest that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons "survivors" and the fact that there's ONE line from a godawful book by a godawful author which helped bring about the "Horus Heresy Council" that you can read about on certain authors' blogs.

... Isn't your reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong because newer fluff contradicts older, pre-existing fluff?

I'm confused.

No, my "reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong" fits around the fact that we have fluff on the Ravens. That has yet to be contradicted.

That fluff states that the Ravens' gene-seed is "relatively pure" but "unable to be identified".

The problem, once again, comes down to a simple fact:
People think they know exactly what is what, based upon two absurdly vague pieces in these two novels.

I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the fact that people are insisting that it can only be read ONE WAY.
It cannot. It was purposely written that way. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. It's purposely written to be like John Edwards, a well-known "psychic" who utilizes all kinds of unethical ways to bilk people out of their money, throwing out vague statements and hoping that people will bite.

Unable to be identified...yeah, right. Or they don't want anyone to know. You still haven't given an in-fiction answer as to why pre-M37 records are sealed. Or why someone high up blocks inquiries into the Librarium Sanctorum.

Skits wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And if you know fluff, you know that Russ and his Wolves have been recently established to be the Emperor's "executioners".

You don't send an executioner to take prisoners. You send them to kill. The fact that the Wulfen were present should be evidence enough of this.

That's actually been under quite a bit of debate in other places I've seen. Just because the Wolves in Prospero Burns SAY they're the Emperor's executioners doesn't necessarily make it true.

So what other Legions have been used to "execute" fellow Legions?

Oh right. None.
It's also worth noting that the Wolves were one of the smaller Legions, which leads one to make conjecture that their role was not necessarily to be a "frontline" Legion like the others.

Tadashi wrote:Oh yes they were. Members of the Council of Terra wanted them condemned with their Legions, and only Malcador's refusal prevented this.

What in the world are you even talking about?
The fact that the Council of Terra wanted them labeled as traitors does not mean that they were traitors.
Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

And if Russ was sent to execute Magnus, why then did Horus have to intervene?

Okay.
Let me phrase this simply.
Russ was sent to exact justice on Magnus and his Legion.

Horus' whisperings simply pushed things farther than they were going to go. It was pouring gasoline on a fire.

Exact justice, in pre-Imperial Cult means to take into custody, not burn their homeworld down. Russ sent someone ahead to ask Magnus and his Legion to surrender and prepare for transport, only that someone was actually an agent of Chaos.

Tadashi wrote:Unable to be identified...yeah, right. Or they don't want anyone to know.

Who doesn't want anyone to know? The Blood Ravens have been tested quite regularly. No abnormalities have really shown up within the gene-seed.

You still haven't given an in-fiction answer as to why pre-M37 records are sealed.

Because there isn't one. You'd know that if you'd read the damn fluff available on the Blood Ravens. There's not enough fluff for you to be right--just for your theory to be shot down.

Or why someone high up blocks inquiries into the Librarium Sanctorum.

People high up block inquiries into many of the various Astartes Chapters and their shenanigans.

That means nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:Exact justice, in pre-Imperial Cult means to take into custody, not burn their homeworld down.

Says who?
You are aware that the Officio Assassinorum existed right?

Russ sent someone to ask Magnus and his Legion to surrender and prepare for transport, only that someone was actually an agent of Chaos.

...
What? Where in the hell are you getting this from?

RUSS is the one "sent" to ask Magnus and his Legion to stand-down and be purged...which Magnus actually obliged.

Kasper Ansbach Hawser, a supposed Hidden One of the Thousand Sons was sent shortly before the Burning of Prospero by Leman Russ asking Magnus and his Legion to assemble for surrender. Only Hawser wasn't a Hidden One, but a Chaos Agent. This is from Prospero Burns. If Russ was sent to execute Magnus, why would he ask the Sons to assemble?

And the Assassinorum was meant to eliminate individuals, not entire Legions, and those individuals who the Imperium could not openly intervene on.

Tadashi wrote:Kasper Ansbach Hawser, a supposed Hidden One of the Thousand Sons was sent shortly before the Burning of Prospero by Leman Russ asking Magnus and his Legion to assemble for surrender. Only Hawser wasn't a Hidden One, but a Chaos Agent. This is from Prospero Burns.

I think we read different books. Because nothing in mine suggested that Hawser was a "Chaos Agent".

If Russ was sent to execute Magnus, why would he ask the Sons to assemble?

Really? You don't see the advantage in having THE ENTIRETY OF THE LEGION in one place to be exterminated?

And the Assassinorum was meant to eliminate individuals, not entire Legions, and those individuals who the Imperium could not openly intervene on.

The Officio was meant to eliminate individuals who defied the Emperor.
"Nemesis", a Horus Heresy novel, details the fact that an "Assassination Force" was assembled to kill Horus during the Heresy.

So there goes your explanation of that one down the drain.

For surrender. I don't like the Wolf King, but he was one of the most honorable Primarchs, and no matter who ordered him, he would never have gunned down enemies who surrendered. Hawser is a Chaos agent meant to look like a Hidden One. Russ' message never reached Magnus, which was basically the final reason Russ ordered the assault on Prospero.

Maybe you should be an Inquisitor instead of a Guardsman, since you seem to delight in shooting down people's opinions, and crushing any sense of individual thinking. The greatest traitors in Imperial history aren't Horus and his followers, it's the agents of the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition and the heads of the Administratum who took advantage after the end of the Horus Heresy, preventing any chance of rebuilding everything the Emperor worked so hard to build.

Could the traitors calling the Blood Ravens "brothers" perhaps be a glance into the future? In the Space Marine video game, Lord Nemeroth also calls Captain Titus "brother"...... an Ultramarine......

Perhaps they see events unfolding that will shake the loyalty of the Blood Ravens in the future and that of Cpt Titus.

You're combining the fluff we already have(Horus diverting Russ) and assuming it will remain the same with the "new" stuff we're getting.

So you're saying ignore the existing fluff because future fluff might prove it wrong?

Where in the world did I say anything like that?

The line I quoted in my post. Basically I'm reading it as "ignore the fluff we already have about Horus diverting Russ because it might not remain the same with the new stuff we're getting." Which to me boils down to "ignore existing fluff because future fluff might prove it wrong".

You're confusing two issues: namely the fact that there's TWO throwaway fanservice lines(One in "A Thousand Sons", the second in "Rebirth") which can be read to suggest that the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons "survivors" and the fact that there's ONE line from a godawful book by a godawful author which helped bring about the "Horus Heresy Council" that you can read about on certain authors' blogs.

What classifies them as "throwaway fanservice lines"? The lines about the Wolves being the Emperor's executioners could also be considered "throwaway fanservice lines". Which would give THAT just as much, or as little, sway as the ones about the Sons/Ravens.

Also, your theory about the Wolves being a smaller legion makes no sense to me. If they were meant to be the Emperor's Executioners, wouldn't they then need to be large enough to "execute" ANY legion, including the ones that are, at that point, much larger than them? The Wolves may be good, but they're not that good.

... Isn't your reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong because newer fluff contradicts older, pre-existing fluff?

No, my "reasoning that the Sons becoming Ravens is wrong" fits around the fact that we have fluff on the Ravens. That has yet to be contradicted.

That fluff states that the Ravens' gene-seed is "relatively pure" but "unable to be identified".

"Relatively" pure. Doesn't necessarily mean "entirely pure". And after ten thousand years, Emperor only knows what people consider "relatively pure" these days. As for "unable to be identified" - just because they say that doesn't necessarily make it true. If the Ravens ARE from the Sons, I doubt they'd want people knowing that the Ravens are from a Traitor Legion. That particular small piece of fluff means very little in the overall scheme of things, I think.

From what I know of the Ravens fluff - they're a fleet-based chapter, who have a surprising number of psykers amongst them. They're somewhat prone to corruption - according to all the DoW games, with several different Ravens (including the Chapter Master!) falling to Chaos at one point or another. They don't know anything about their founding chapter, all records of their origins either can't be accessed or no longer exist, and their gene-seed is tested even more frequently/vigorously for corruption/mutation than other Chapters.

Nothing in that says, definitively, that they CANNOT be Thousand Sons. However, a lot of that could be read to suggest that the Ravens are Sons.

From what I've gathered from this thread, one of your arguments that the Ravens couldn't have come from the Sons was because of older fluff saying that all the Sons were on Prospero. And yet, now we have newer fluff saying that hey, not ALL the Sons were on Prospero.

So you saying that we should ignore the "newer fluff" (Goto's books, A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns, and Rebirth) in favour of said "older fluff" (all the Sons being on Prospero), and then turning around and saying that we should ignore "current fluff" (Horus changing Russ' orders - older fluff) because "future fluff" (newer fluff) might contradict that... well, it comes across as a bit hypocritical, something of a double standard. See what I'm getting at?

The problem, once again, comes down to a simple fact:
People think they know exactly what is what, based upon two absurdly vague pieces in these two novels.

Honestly, I base my theory on why the Blood Ravens are descended from the Thousand Sons on a fair bit more than just "two absurdly vague pieces". Granted, a lot of my theory is based on speculation, tenuous connections, and leaps of logic - but that's why I enjoy it so much. To me, there's a lot more evidence than just a couple of throwaway lines. Once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is conspiracy.

However, I also acknowledge that just because I believe the Sons/Ravens thing doesn't necessarily make it right or true. Which is why I'm trying to find out as much information as I possibly can. So far, in my experience, I've found a lot more that supports the "it's possible" theory rather than the "it's impossible" theory.

I have no problem with that. I have a problem with the fact that people are insisting that it can only be read ONE WAY.
It cannot. It was purposely written that way. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. It's purposely written to be like John Edwards, a well-known "psychic" who utilizes all kinds of unethical ways to bilk people out of their money, throwing out vague statements and hoping that people will bite.

I don't know where anyone in this thread so far has insisted that it can only be read ONE WAY. Everything in all the 40K fluff is open to interpretation, as far as I'm concerned. I'm just trying to figure out the reasoning behind why you seem to be so adamant that Blood Ravens originating from the Thousand Sons is so horribly wrong. If anything, I'm getting the impression that you are insisting that everything all be read the one way - that way being that the Ravens COULD NOT be the Sons. Don't misunderstand me though - I have nothing against you having that opinion. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions, after all.

See, that's the thing.

Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons. The fact that the psyker population of the Chapter comes not from the gene-seed(which it did for the Sons) but rather the population of their recruiting worlds is the biggest point in that argument.

I have no problems with people believing it one way or the other. I just do not like people who constantly repeat the same argument, which I've debunked multiple times, as if it's new--and then bite MY head off because I get a mite bit irritated because rather than search around(there's a damn near 31 page thread on this very topic) they just post the same thing again and then get touchy when their topic is shown to be bunk.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

When you say "Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons"... what, specifically, do you mean by "everything"?

I don't remember anything being specifically said about the worlds that the Ravens recruit from having a high, or even noticeable, population of psykers. If you could point me towards specific sources that do say that, I'd appreciate it.

Like I said, from my own information-gathering, I've seen very little that points to the Ravens definitively NOT being Sons, and a lot that does at least suggest it.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

I remember reading that article - and that's yet another piece of fluff that suggests the Ravens/Sons link - and does NOTHING to "point towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons."

Only Cyrene (a recruiting world) had a large psychic population like Prospero once had, except Cyrene is in ashes, and the Blood Ravens still have a lot of psykers in their ranks. And since you discount Black Library publishings, Meridian, Calderis, and formerly Typhon have never been mentioned as having large psychic populations. And Skits has a point - would the Mechanicus be so illogical as to bring about the destruction of a loyal Chapter by revealing that their gene-seed is from a Traitor Legion? You debunk the evidence pseudo-Inquisitor, because it contradicts older fluff. Apparently your ignoring the fact that newer fluff has appeared that now contradicts your older fluff.

Kanluwen wrote:See, that's the thing.

Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons. The fact that the psyker population of the Chapter comes not from the gene-seed(which it did for the Sons) but rather the population of their recruiting worlds is the biggest point in that argument.

I have no problems with people believing it one way or the other. I just do not like people who constantly repeat the same argument, which I've debunked multiple times, as if it's new--and then bite MY head off because I get a mite bit irritated because rather than search around(there's a damn near 31 page thread on this very topic) they just post the same thing again and then get touchy when their topic is shown to be bunk.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

Kan, your argument is not definitive no matter how much you want to pretend it is. Their origins are purposefully mysterious in classic 40k style, and frankly there are more than enough hints running around that they are tsons to make you calling the theory wrong (in bold no less) a stretch at best. You are not the arbiter of fluff on this site, and 'disliking people who constantly repeat the same arguement' is a bit ironic.

I see nothing in your position which is ironclad or any more or less valid than the op's position, so please step off the high horse and join the rest of us down here in 'we don't know' land. Some people haven't debated the topic before, let them have fun and explore, you have said your piece.

Skits wrote:When you say "Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons"... what, specifically, do you mean by "everything"?

I don't remember anything being specifically said about the worlds that the Ravens recruit from having a high, or even noticeable, population of psykers. If you could point me towards specific sources that do say that, I'd appreciate it.

"While there is no fixed base of operations for the Blood Ravens, there are a number of planets, ranging from feral worlds of club-wielding savages to sprawling hive worlds, from which the Chapter consistently draws recruits. There appears to be no rhyme or reason to this process, but there are a number of worlds in particular that the Blood Ravens favor over others. It has been suggested that these worlds have a higher incidence of Psykers than normal, though such speculation has never been substantiated".

Index Astartes: Blood Ravens.
White Dwarf 295, August 2004.

There's also a piece about Cyrene, but it's linking the rise in mutant births on Cyrene to a rise in the nascent psyker population and how that can only be "bad, mmmkay".

Like I said, from my own information-gathering, I've seen very little that points to the Ravens definitively NOT being Sons, and a lot that does at least suggest it.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

I remember reading that article - and that's yet another piece of fluff that suggests the Ravens/Sons link - and does NOTHING to "point towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons."

There is exactly ONE mention of the Sons in that article. And you know what it is?
"The Blood Ravens have in the past warned of or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This fact has led some puritanical figures to make dark mention of the tale of the fallen Primarch Magnus and his ultimate fate by claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings."

That's the one and only mention within the entirety of about 4 pages of text.

Tadashi wrote:Only Cyrene (a recruiting world) had a large psychic population like Prospero once had, except Cyrene is in ashes, and the Blood Ravens still have a lot of psykers in their ranks.

See above.

And since you discount Black Library publishings, Meridian, Calderis, and formerly Typhon have never been mentioned as having large psychic populations.

No, I discount C.S. Goto's publishings. Because they're garbage and have Terminators backflipping/surfing on tanks.

And Skits has a point - would the Mechanicus be so illogical as to bring about the destruction of a loyal Chapter by revealing that their gene-seed is from a Traitor Legion?

Is this a serious question?
The Blood Ravens, by the by, are far from the model of loyalty. We're not talking about the Ultramarines here. We're talking about a Chapter which leaves battlefields to pursue their own agenda, and is experimenting with monstrosities.

You debunk the evidence pseudo-Inquisitor, because it contradicts older fluff.

No, I debunk the evidence because you're essentially trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Apparently your ignoring the fact that newer fluff has appeared that now contradicts your older fluff.

Not really. There hasn't really been anything which contradicts the fluff I refer to, while yours has been.

Oh sure, they experiment with monstrosities. Yet I wonder why the Ordo Hereticus can't seem to touch them. Oh that's right, someone high up is looking out for us. Oh, and what's this I see, wulfen! Space Wolves have monsters too, pseudo-Inquisitor. And newer fluff does nothing to contradict the idea that Blood Ravens could be descended from the Thousand Sons. Actually, it's the opposite, they support it.

MajorTom11 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:See, that's the thing.

Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons. The fact that the psyker population of the Chapter comes not from the gene-seed(which it did for the Sons) but rather the population of their recruiting worlds is the biggest point in that argument.

I have no problems with people believing it one way or the other. I just do not like people who constantly repeat the same argument, which I've debunked multiple times, as if it's new--and then bite MY head off because I get a mite bit irritated because rather than search around(there's a damn near 31 page thread on this very topic) they just post the same thing again and then get touchy when their topic is shown to be bunk.

I used to have the Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens as a link in my sig. That link is now gone though, so one will have to search around for that too. That, however, spells out that SOME within the Inquisition have hinted at the Ravens being descended from a Traitor Legion--and that they make comparisons to the Blood Ravens' reliance on psykers for "predicting the future" and Magnus' fall from grace because of his hubris.

Kan, your argument is not definitive no matter how much you want to pretend it is. Their origins are purposefully mysterious in classic 40k style, and frankly there are more than enough hints running around that they are tsons to make you calling the theory wrong (in bold no less) a stretch at best.

You've done nothing but illustrate my point perfectly. There's HINTS that they are somehow related to the Thousand Sons. There's also hints that they can be related to the Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, or any number of the Loyalist Chapters.

Assuming that they are directly related to one single Legion is silly.

You are not the arbiter of fluff on this site, and 'disliking people who constantly repeat the same arguement' is a bit ironic.

Sorry, where did I say I'm the "arbiter of fluff"?

I see nothing in your position which is ironclad or any more or less valid than the op's position, so please step off the high horse and join the rest of us down here in 'we don't know' land.

Right. Other than having debunked the "prophecy" multiple times or pointed out that it was likely nothing but foreshadowing/literary shenanigans for the allusion in "Rebirth"--I very clearly have "nothing in my position".

Some people haven't debated the topic before, let them have fun and explore, you have said your piece.

And yet, they have no interest in "having fun and exploring" anything new. Maybe we should just start opening up dead threads since we're just recycling the same content.

Kan, that's a MOD. Be careful.

Tadashi wrote:Oh sure, they experiment with monstrosities.

And you know who else did?
Hint:

Yet I wonder why the Ordo Hereticus can't seem to touch them. Oh that's right, someone high up is looking out for us.

The Ordo Hereticus can't seem to touch any of the Chapters which have "questionable" practices, so that point is kinda moot.

Oh, and what's this I see, wulfen! Space Wolves have monsters too, pseudo-Inquisitor.

Yeah. And you know where those monsters have been? The Eye of Terror, with the rest of the 13th Company.

And newer fluff does nothing to contradict the idea that Blood Ravens could be descended from the Thousand Sons. Actually, it's the opposite, they support it.

So you have something contradicting the fact that it's their gene-seed, which is rigorously tested and screened, supplying them with psykers?
You have something contradicting the fact that the Chapter, when it was founded, was organized as a Codex Chapter, and the Librarian heavy Chapter only came to exist after an ambush killing the leadership of the Chapter?

Until those are debunked, the fact stands that it's nothing but conjecture that they're descended from the Thousand Sons.

For my own money, I'd say they're descended from the Imperial Fists. They have that stubborn streak in them common to the Sons of Dorn.

And the predisposition to precognitive ability comes from the Imperial Fists? And you want more monsters...Death Company. And they're sealed history remains unexplained in-story.

Ahh, thank you, Kanluwen!

Though I will point out that the article specifically states that the Ravens favouring certain worlds because of the higher incidence of psykers is just speculation, and hasn't been substantiated. Which, honestly, could mean a lot of things. Or nothing at all.

Also, I'd like to mention that it wasn't necessarily the Sons' geneseed alone that made them psychic. If that were the case, there'd most likely be far more sorcerers and far fewer Rubricae. However, the Sons' homeworld was noted for having a high population of psykers - and in fact, had been populated in the first place because it was far enough away that the general population could develop their psychic skills without persecution.

The Sons, whose home world was planet with a high population of psykers. The Ravens, who seemingly prefer to recruit from planets with high populations of psykers. A link, perhaps? Maybe the Sons' geneseed works better with people who are already psychically inclined, and/or enhances the pre-existing psychic potential? Food for thought. Again, something that suggests the Sons/Raven link, and nothing that actively, definitively disputes it.

There is exactly ONE mention of the Sons in that article. And you know what it is?
"The Blood Ravens have in the past warned of or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This fact has led some puritanical figures to make dark mention of the tale of the fallen Primarch Magnus and his ultimate fate by claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings."

That's the one and only mention within the entirety of about 4 pages of text.

If it wasn't relevant, why would it have been mentioned at all? Sure, it's only one mention in four pages of text... but the fact that it's there at all is potentially rather telling. It certainly doesn't lend ANY credulousness to the theory that the Ravens could not possibly be Sons. Yet again, something that suggests the Sons/Raven link, and nothing that actively, definitively disputes it.

The Blood Ravens, by the by, are far from the model of loyalty. We're not talking about the Ultramarines here. We're talking about a Chapter which leaves battlefields to pursue their own agenda, and is experimenting with monstrosities.

If they're not considered loyal, why do they still exist? They MUST be considered loyal, or at least loyal enough, otherwise they would've been exterminated by now for being renegades or traitors. Sure, they may not be Ultramarines-level loyal, but honestly, who is?

So, again. We have a (mostly) loyal chapter. WHY would those in charge bring about the destruction of a (mostly) loyal Chapter by letting everyone know that they're descended from a Traitor Legion?

Slight tangent - experimenting with monstrosities? Where's that mentioned? I don't recall anything like that. o_O

And you still haven't answered my previous question: When you say "Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons"... what, specifically, do you mean by "everything"?

You're assuming that the "precognitive ability" is a trait expressed through the lineage of the Blood Ravens.

It's not. If it were, every single member of the Blood Ravens would have it--to an extent.
In the Thousand Sons, even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian. That's another one of those things which leads me to say "nope!" on the Thousand Sons/Blood Raven tie.

Death Company aren't "monsters" in any sense. They're part of a gene-seed flaw certainly, but it's not altering their physiology like the Flesh Change did. It also isn't expressed in every single member of the Blood Angels.

Also, disregarding everything Goto wrote just because you don't like his writing is... well, kind of shallow, IMO. You may not like his writing (and I do agree that some of it is a bit... WTF. Like aforementioned back-flipping Terminators and tank-surfing. Seriously, lol), but that doesn't mean that you can therefore completely ignore its existence. It's part of the established fluff, whether you like it or not.

Skits wrote:Ahh, thank you, Kanluwen!

Though I will point out that the article specifically states that the Ravens favouring certain worlds because of the higher incidence of psykers is just speculation, and hasn't been substantiated. Which, honestly, could mean a lot of things. Or nothing at all.

Also, I'd like to mention that it wasn't necessarily the Sons' geneseed alone that made them psychic. If that were the case, there'd most likely be far more sorcerers and far fewer Rubricae. However, the Sons' homeworld was noted for having a high population of psykers - and in fact, had been populated in the first place because it was far enough away that the general population could develop their psychic skills without persecution.

The Sons, whose home world was planet with a high population of psykers. The Ravens, who seemingly prefer to recruit from planets with high populations of psykers. A link, perhaps? Maybe the Sons' geneseed works better with people who are already psychically inclined, and/or enhances the pre-existing psychic potential? Food for thought. Again, something that suggests the Sons/Raven link, and nothing that actively, definitively disputes it.

Because I've not typed up the entire article. I've read it multiple times, and have never gotten a "Ravens are Thousand Sons!" vibe from it.

And that was even before the "Dawn of War" novels suggested the tie.

There is exactly ONE mention of the Sons in that article. And you know what it is?
"The Blood Ravens have in the past warned of or responded to enemy attacks or invasions well before most Imperial sources have even been aware of them. This fact has led some puritanical figures to make dark mention of the tale of the fallen Primarch Magnus and his ultimate fate by claiming that his path to damnation began with such warnings."

That's the one and only mention within the entirety of about 4 pages of text.

If it wasn't relevant, why would it have been mentioned at all? Sure, it's only one mention in four pages of text... but the fact that it's there at all is potentially rather telling. It certainly doesn't lend ANY credulousness to the theory that the Ravens could not possibly be Sons. Yet again, something that suggests the Sons/Raven link, and nothing that actively, definitively disputes it.

This is the problem, right here.

The assumption that it is "relevant" or "done intentionally" is a problem. This piece was written LONG before any suggested tie between the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens was out there. The fact that it talks about Magnus is not to create a tie between the two, but rather it is framed exactly as I wrote it: a suggestion that the Blood Ravens are leaving themselves open to corruption.

The Blood Ravens, by the by, are far from the model of loyalty. We're not talking about the Ultramarines here. We're talking about a Chapter which leaves battlefields to pursue their own agenda, and is experimenting with monstrosities.

If they're not considered loyal, why do they still exist? They MUST be considered loyal, or at least loyal enough, otherwise they would've been exterminated by now for being renegades or traitors. Sure, they may not be Ultramarines-level loyal, but honestly, who is?

The Dark Angels and their Successors.
The Imperial Fists and their Successors.
The Ultramarines Successors.

I could go on a bit more.

So, again. We have a (mostly) loyal chapter. WHY would those in charge bring about the destruction of a (mostly) loyal Chapter by letting everyone know that they're descended from a Traitor Legion?

Why would they hide that fact?
We're not talking about the Sons of Horus here. We're talking about the Thousand Sons--the only Legion which was known to have horribly unstable gene-seed.

Slight tangent - experimenting with monstrosities? Where's that mentioned? I don't recall anything like that. o_O

Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

And you still haven't answered my previous question: When you say "Everything points towards the Ravens NOT being descended from the Sons"... what, specifically, do you mean by "everything"?

Every piece of evidence which people point to?

I know it's hard to believe, but most of these pieces have something in them which also disputes the same evidence.
Except Goto's stuff, but that's because he's bad.


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Skits wrote:Also, disregarding everything Goto wrote just because you don't like his writing is... well, kind of shallow, IMO. You may not like his writing (and I do agree that some of it is a bit... WTF. Like aforementioned back-flipping Terminators and tank-surfing. Seriously, lol), but that doesn't mean that you can therefore completely ignore its existence. It's part of the established fluff, whether you like it or not.

Shallow or not, GW itself ignores his fluff.

He was a godawful writer, and I hope he never gets work again.

Kanluwen wrote:
Or they're a Chapter whose original purpose was to be of a completely unknown origin so that THQ could play and establish them as they saw fit.

It's amazing how often the simplest answer trumps all these ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Well one day they will have to finish Blood Ravens story, Like they did with all others.
I am just going to see how will hey do it... I hope it will not be "they are from Ultramarines they have just forgotten Guiliman was their Primarch".

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Or they're a Chapter whose original purpose was to be of a completely unknown origin so that THQ could play and establish them as they saw fit.

It's amazing how often the simplest answer trumps all these ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Well one day they will have to finish Blood Ravens story, Like they did with all others.
I am just going to see how will hey do it... I hope it will not be "they are from Ultramarines they have just forgotten Guiliman was their Primarch".

Agreed! That would cause an uproar among the community.

And, Kan, gene-seed is not corrupt. It just gives you a predisposition to certain things, but it does not guarantee you will have it. Look at the Blood Angels, not all of them fall to the Black Rage. And the Thousand Sons suffered the flesh-change because of unrestrained psychic abilities, their gene-seed just giving them a predisposition to scholarship and psychic powers, something the Blood Ravens have too.


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Kanluwen wrote:
Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Sounds a lot like the flesh-change to me...

Kanluwen wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Even if that's the case, why would the Chapter's pre-M37 history be sealed by the Inquisition?

For any number of reasons?

I don'y buy it.
I can understand for Grey Knights or Traitor Legions or Renegade Chapters.
Why would the Inquisition seal the records of a random Chapter that even don't remember their own Primarch?

And what they did or happened in their past that would make the Inquisition to do that? Just remember Kronus, after the purge the secrets that Thule discovered there were so terrifying that he took a bow of silence. And I also doubt that Cyrene was exterminated because of the mutations beginning to appear among the population, Gabriel also discovered something there, so terrifying that he requested Exrterminaus on his own Homeworld.

There is something very wrong with this Chapter, leading other to believe that they have connections with Traitor Legions.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Even if that's the case, why would the Chapter's pre-M37 history be sealed by the Inquisition?

For any number of reasons?

I don'y buy it.
I can understand for Grey Knights or Traitor Legions or Renegade Chapters.
Why would the Inquisition seal the records of a random Chapter that even don't remember their own Primarch?

And what they did or happened in their past that would make the Inquisition to do that? Just remember Kronus, after the purge the secrets that Thule discovered there were so terrifying that he took a bow of silence. And I also doubt that Cyrene was exterminated because of the mutations beginning to appear among the population, Gabriel also discovered something there, so terrifying that he requested Exrterminaus on his own Homeworld.

There is something very wrong with this Chapter, leading other to believe that they have connections with Traitor Legions.

"Whoever heard of a Chapter that's forgotten it's own Primarch? You'd sooner forget your own name!"
- Sergeant Avitus

Even ordinary Blood Ravens suspect their Chapter's dark origins...

Because I've not typed up the entire article. I've read it multiple times, and have never gotten a "Ravens are Thousand Sons!" vibe from it.

I never said you were meant to. Heck, a lot of the stuff I base my theory on probably isn't meant to give that sort of vibe either. Doesn't stop people drawing connections. And again, it does nothing to actively dispute the possible Sons/Ravens connection.

This is the problem, right here.

The assumption that it is "relevant" or "done intentionally" is a problem. This piece was written LONG before any suggested tie between the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens was out there. The fact that it talks about Magnus is not to create a tie between the two, but rather it is framed exactly as I wrote it: a suggestion that the Blood Ravens are leaving themselves open to corruption.

Fair enough point about the intention. However, it still doesn't actively dispute the possible connection.

The Dark Angels and their Successors.
The Imperial Fists and their Successors.
The Ultramarines Successors.

I could go on a bit more.

That still doesn't answer the original question - if they're NOT considered loyal, or at least loyal enough, WHY DO THEY STILL EXIST?

Why would they hide that fact?
We're not talking about the Sons of Horus here. We're talking about the Thousand Sons--the only Legion which was known to have horribly unstable gene-seed.

What does the Sons of Horus have to do with this? And WHY would they REVEAL it? It'd cause far more trouble than it's worth. At best, that knowledge would put the Ravens under even more distrust and suspicion than they are already. At worst, the Space Wolves at least, if not other chapters as well, would attack and wipe out the Blood Ravens, destroying an otherwise loyal chapter and costing far more than it'd really be worth.

Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Ahh, thank you. I'd forgotten that little detail. I don't know how "monstrous" those poor mad souls were though, hehe. S'pose it depends on whether or not they were possessed. Fair enough call.

Every piece of evidence which people point to?

I know it's hard to believe, but most of these pieces have something in them which also disputes the same evidence.

That's just it though - for all the "evidence" I've seen so far, not much of it has ACTUALLY disputed the theory - more of it has supported it than otherwise.

And if you choose to ignore Goto's stuff - and if GW itself is ignoring Goto's stuff - then Rebirth isn't "correcting" anything at all. It is separately and individually establishing in the 40K fluff that there is a possible connection between the Sons and the Ravens.

Kanluwen wrote:You're assuming that the "precognitive ability" is a trait expressed through the lineage of the Blood Ravens.

It's not. If it were, every single member of the Blood Ravens would have it--to an extent.
In the Thousand Sons, even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian. That's another one of those things which leads me to say "nope!" on the Thousand Sons/Blood Raven tie.

Not every single Thousand Son had precognitive ability, either. Not even just all the psychic ones. Only SOME of them were precog.

Where does it specifically say that "even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian"? As much as I love the Sons, I doubt that to be true. The only Sons we've seen in detail in fluff have been high-ranking members - so of course, they're all going to be pretty powerful. If they weren't powerful, they wouldn't be such a high rank. Doesn't mean that ALL the Sons were that powerful.

The Sons had several ranks of psykers, based on their psychic strength and potential: Neophyte, Zealator, Practicus, Philosophus, Adept Minor, Adept Major, Adept Exemptus, Magister Templi (the leader of each cult), Magus (Magnus), and Ipissumus (Emperor). Philosophus was the final cult rank a warrior could hold before facing the Dominus Liminus to achieve the rank of adept. None of the Sekhmet (1st Fellowship/Terminators) were below the rank of Philosophus.

That doesn't mean that EVERY Son reached those higher ranks. Some might never have gone beyond the lower ranks. Heck, in the Thousand Sons book, Ahriman himself makes a mental observation that Hathor Maat would most likely never go beyond the rank of Adept Major - and he was Captain of the Third Fellowship!

However, the main difference between the Sons and any other Legions psykers was their training. So of course you aren't going to see many Ravens reaching the sort of psychic levels the Sons did - they lack the same intense training of the Sons.


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Tadashi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Sounds a lot like the flesh-change to me...

... Ahaha oh wow, that never occurred to me. It makes sense though!

Granted, again, it's just theory and supposition and drawing conclusions from little evidence, but still... /takes idea and RUNS WITH IT AHAHAHA

I got a new idea from this thread, hooray!

Tadashi wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Or they're a Chapter whose original purpose was to be of a completely unknown origin so that THQ could play and establish them as they saw fit.

It's amazing how often the simplest answer trumps all these ridiculous conspiracy theories.

Well one day they will have to finish Blood Ravens story, Like they did with all others.
I am just going to see how will hey do it... I hope it will not be "they are from Ultramarines they have just forgotten Guiliman was their Primarch".

Agreed! That would cause an uproar among the community.

Sadly, for all the wrong reasons.

And, Kan, gene-seed is not corrupt.

Tell that to the Black Dragons Chapter, whose gene-seed caused them to grow bony ridges.

It just gives you a predisposition to certain things, but it does not guarantee you will have it. Look at the Blood Angels, not all of them fall to the Black Rage.

Tell that to the Raven Guard and Salamanders, whose skin pigmentation is a direct result of mutations in their gene-seed.

And the Thousand Sons suffered the flesh-change because of unrestrained psychic abilities, their gene-seed just giving them a predisposition to scholarship and psychic powers, something the Blood Ravens have too.

I'd suggest you reread "A Thousand Sons".
The Flesh-Change is the result of the gene-seed. The "unrestrained psychic abilities" was a by-product of the gene-seed and population blending together, with the stabilization of the gene-seed being present courtesy of a certain Ruinous Power.

The Blood Ravens actually did not have a "predisposition to scholarship and psychic powers" until AFTER a Librarian took command of the Chapter. In fact, Vidya was criticized by the Chapter when he first took command because of it.

If one wants to make a more believable argument for a Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens tie: it's entirely possible that Vidya might have been a survivor from the Thousand Sons. He was very powerful, and hesitant to take command of the Chapter. He planned out his war methodically and what's more, even his name is suggestive of a locale where the Thousand Sons were said to have recruited some Terrans from.

Kanluwen wrote:
Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Sounds a lot like the flesh-change to me...

Of course it does. You want them to be Thousand Sons descendants so hard that even if something doesn't necessarily add up, you're deciding it does.

The Flesh Change had very specific characteristics in the Thousand Sons.
The article does not go much into detail on them, but it does make it clear that the entirety of the Blood Ravens Chapter is NOT consistent of psykers and that the "mutations" present in the Blood Ravens are par for the course when it comes to failed Aspirants.

I'm really not trying to be mean here. This is a pet peeve of mine, and I've had to argue it so many times it's become a point of contention.

Brother Coa wrote:I don't buy it.
I can understand for Grey Knights or Traitor Legions or Renegade Chapters.
Why would the Inquisition seal the records of a random Chapter that even don't remember their own Primarch?

Again: for any number of reasons?
The Exorcists and Red Hunters have much of their records sealed by Inquisitorial remit. The suggestion which the IA article puts forward as the "most likely reason" is that the Blood Ravens were one of those Chapters founded to face a particular threat, which they triumphed over and then would have faded into obscurity were it not for the fact that they later lost all their records and command staff to become something unique under Azariah Vidya.

And what they did or happened in their past that would make the Inquisition to do that? Just remember Kronus, after the purge the secrets that Thule discovered there were so terrifying that he took a vow of silence.

The Inquisition seals up all kinds of things. They don't necessarily do it because it's bad.

And I also doubt that Cyrene was exterminated because of the mutations beginning to appear among the population, Gabriel also discovered something there, so terrifying that he requested Exrterminaus on his own Homeworld.

Mass mutations+a burgeoning psyker population=A Very Bad Thing. It's not uncommon for such worlds to be the sites of massive daemonic incursions or even Enslaver incursions simply due to all the psykers present in one place.

There is something very wrong with this Chapter, leading other to believe that they have connections with Traitor Legions.

There's something wrong with the Raven Guard, they must be Alpha Legion!

This is why assumptions are bad. When you make a hypothesis without having scourved over every piece of evidence available, you end up with a bad hypothesis.

Yeah, so Azariah Vidya is a loyalist Thousand Son from seven thousand years before M37...that's a long time when you consider he's outside the Eye of Terror's time-lapsed area...and your ignoring the fact that Blood Ravens don't go psyker-intensive like the Thousand Sons, so the flesh-change won't affect them that badly. Oh sure, but what of the Blood Angels flaws? Not all of them manifest it. Simply, not all predispositions are as intensive as the Raven Guard and the Salamanders, just as not all Thousand Sons and Blood Ravens are psykers/sorcerers.

Skits wrote:

Because I've not typed up the entire article. I've read it multiple times, and have never gotten a "Ravens are Thousand Sons!" vibe from it.

I never said you were meant to. Heck, a lot of the stuff I base my theory on probably isn't meant to give that sort of vibe either. Doesn't stop people drawing connections. And again, it does nothing to actively dispute the possible Sons/Ravens connection.

Of course not, none existed at the time.

This is the problem, right here.

The assumption that it is "relevant" or "done intentionally" is a problem. This piece was written LONG before any suggested tie between the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens was out there. The fact that it talks about Magnus is not to create a tie between the two, but rather it is framed exactly as I wrote it: a suggestion that the Blood Ravens are leaving themselves open to corruption.

Fair enough point about the intention. However, it still doesn't actively dispute the possible connection.

Again: none existed. It was written before any connection existed, and did not have to dispute or tread carefully around such a connection being assumed. If you read back to around the timeframe of that article and the Blood Ravens' introduction, there was none at all relating to the Thousand Sons until that damn Goto book and people running with the line "Brother".

The Dark Angels and their Successors.
The Imperial Fists and their Successors.
The Ultramarines Successors.

I could go on a bit more.

That still doesn't answer the original question - if they're NOT considered loyal, or at least loyal enough, WHY DO THEY STILL EXIST?

Okay, seriously now.
Plenty of Chapters are "loyal enough". These Chapters still exist for the simple reason that the Imperium cannot afford to waste the Astartes. They have to do something really bad to be declared renegade/heretic. Look at the Astral Claws/Red Corsairs. They had to secede from the Imperium, taking a huge chunk of space under their protection, to be considered "not loyal enough".

Why would they hide that fact?
We're not talking about the Sons of Horus here. We're talking about the Thousand Sons--the only Legion which was known to have horribly unstable gene-seed.

What does the Sons of Horus have to do with this?

I thought it was blindingly obvious. The Sons of Horus had no outward flaws. Their gene-seed was perfect. If the Mechanicus could use it, they likely would be.

And WHY would they REVEAL it? It'd cause far more trouble than it's worth. At best, that knowledge would put the Ravens under even more distrust and suspicion than they are already. At worst, the Space Wolves at least, if not other chapters as well, would attack and wipe out the Blood Ravens, destroying an otherwise loyal chapter and costing far more than it'd really be worth.

An "otherwise loyal Chapter" which at some point in their history has had a full half of the Chapter go traitor, under the command of a possessed Librarian.

That seems like the kind of thing that would be more likely to happen to someone not of Thousand Sons lineage, now doesn't it?

Under the "Organization" heading. It talks about the Sanatorium, where the "mad souls too weak to complete the final transformation into a Librarian" are housed for a short period of respite before being ritually executed.

Ahh, thank you. I'd forgotten that little detail. I don't know how "monstrous" those poor mad souls were though, hehe. S'pose it depends on whether or not they were possessed. Fair enough call.

Every piece of evidence which people point to?

I know it's hard to believe, but most of these pieces have something in them which also disputes the same evidence.

That's just it though - for all the "evidence" I've seen so far, not much of it has ACTUALLY disputed the theory - more of it has supported it than otherwise.

Once again, because you're wanting it to.

And if you choose to ignore Goto's stuff - and if GW itself is ignoring Goto's stuff - then Rebirth isn't "correcting" anything at all. It is separately and individually establishing in the 40K fluff that there is a possible connection between the Sons and the Ravens.

And the author of "Rebirth" is considered by a few other BL authors to have been very hamfisted with how he did it. Fact of the matter is that it has not established any real, positive connection. All it has established is that because of a turn of a shoulderpad, the Corvidae symbol looked like a raven skull covered in blood.

Kanluwen wrote:You're assuming that the "precognitive ability" is a trait expressed through the lineage of the Blood Ravens.

It's not. If it were, every single member of the Blood Ravens would have it--to an extent.
In the Thousand Sons, even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian. That's another one of those things which leads me to say "nope!" on the Thousand Sons/Blood Raven tie.

Not every single Thousand Son had precognitive ability, either. Not even just all the psychic ones. Only SOME of them were precog.

I should have clarified more. I am not referring to the precognitive ability in my post. I am referring to PSYCHIC ability.
Every single member of the Thousand Sons was psychic, in some way or another.

Where does it specifically say that "even the least psychically effective member of the Legion was at least equivalent to a Librarian"? As much as I love the Sons, I doubt that to be true. The only Sons we've seen in detail in fluff have been high-ranking members - so of course, they're all going to be pretty powerful. If they weren't powerful, they wouldn't be such a high rank. Doesn't mean that ALL the Sons were that powerful.

The Sons had several ranks of psykers, based on their psychic strength and potential: Neophyte, Zealator, Practicus, Philosophus, Adept Minor, Adept Major, Adept Exemptus, Magister Templi (the leader of each cult), Magus (Magnus), and Ipissumus (Emperor). Philosophus was the final cult rank a warrior could hold before facing the Dominus Liminus to achieve the rank of adept. None of the Sekhmet (1st Fellowship/Terminators) were below the rank of Philosophus.

That doesn't mean that EVERY Son reached those higher ranks. Some might never have gone beyond the lower ranks. Heck, in the Thousand Sons book, Ahriman himself makes a mental observation that Hathor Maat would most likely never go beyond the rank of Adept Major - and he was Captain of the Third Fellowship!

You have to remember that the more high-ranking members of the Sons weren't necessarily just powerful. They were able to express their abilities more, and usually able to engage in more than one particular form of psychic combat.

However, the main difference between the Sons and any other Legions psykers was their training. So of course you aren't going to see many Ravens reaching the sort of psychic levels the Sons did - they lack the same intense training of the Sons.

This I'm not sure of. Most of the "intense training of the Sons" wasn't. They were more about study and the usage of their familiars than actually knowing exactly what they were doing.

Since when did every Thousand Son become a psyker? If that's the case, there should have been no Rubric Marines at all, and the entire Legion should have survived the Rubric of Ahriman.

Tadashi wrote:Yeah, so Azariah Vidya is a loyalist Thousand Son from seven thousand years before M37...that's a long time when you consider he's outside the Eye of Terror's time-lapsed area...

So during his entire service with the Blood Ravens, he never once set foot on a ship going into the Warp?

The Warp does crazy things with time. Ships go in one century, come out another. It's entirely feasible.

and your ignoring the fact that Blood Ravens don't go psyker-intensive like the Thousand Sons, so the flesh-change won't affect them that badly.

Post-Vidya, they attempt to.

Oh sure, but what of the Blood Angels flaws? Not all of them manifest it.

No, but they all have a chance to.

Simply, not all predispositions are as intensive as the Raven Guard and the Salamanders, just as not all Thousand Sons and Blood Ravens are psykers/sorcerers.

All Thousand Sons were psykers prior to their gene-seed...but afterwards, some of the Terran members of the Legion became psykers too.
All Raven Guard are marble-fleshed with black hair and eyes.
All Salamanders are jet-black skin with red eyes and black hair.

Blood Ravens have to recruit for psykers. Thus, it's not a gene-seed expressed trait--which blocks Thousand Sons from being the gene-seed progenitors.


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Tadashi wrote:Since when did every Thousand Son become a psyker? If that's the case, there should have been no Rubric Marines at all, and the entire Legion should have survived the Rubric of Ahriman.

Not every Thousand Son was a sorcerer. The sorcerers are those who survived.

The Rubric was cast after they fled to the Warp. That makes it "after" in one of those timey-wimey ways the more powerful psykers started up with the sorcery.

Where did you get the idea all Thousand Sons were psykers? As I've said why then are there Rubric Marines at all? And Blood Ravens Librarians have an unusual number and psychic level of power. The Rubric reduced non-psykers to dust, and only them. Codex: Chaos Space Marines states that Marines with no psychic abilities were the ones who were reduced to dust.

And "A Thousand Sons" overwrites that, as every single member of the Legion exhibits some form of psyker abilities.

Unless you're trying to say that "A Thousand Sons" isn't canon?

No, not all of them. Officers, such as sergeants and higher, are psykers. Common Astartes are still non-psykers. If they were all psykers, there won't be any Rubric Marines.

No, even the common Astartes exhibited some psychic talent.

The codex might say that "only the non-psykers were turned to Rubric Marines", but the book now suggests otherwise. It suggests that those who were affected by the Flesh Change were those who became Rubric Marines.

After all, the Rubric of Ahriman was to stop the Flesh Change. He used a ritual from a book of Magnus', without fully knowing what it would do.

The novel is canon, except those points which contradict the Codex, which is the ultimate canon. Therefore while the novel's story is canon, the idea that all Thousand Sons are psykers is not.

Thing is, you're basing your "the Ravens can't be Sons!" on older fluff that existed before the idea came up as well. So, if it's just the fact that the fluff was around before the idea came up that completely invalidates it... that ALSO invalidates any older fluff that disputes the possible connection. Works both ways.

Plenty of Chapters are "loyal enough". These Chapters still exist for the simple reason that the Imperium cannot afford to waste the Astartes.

THAT bit is the important bit. The Imperium CANNOT AFFORD TO WASTE Astartes.

Therefore, why would they let out information that would most likely lead to the LOSS OF ASTARTES?

I thought it was blindingly obvious. The Sons of Horus had no outward flaws. Their gene-seed was perfect. If the Mechanicus could use it, they likely would be.

Like I've said, I'm not familiar with a lot of the fluff. Do the Mechanicus still actually have geneseed from all the Traitor Legions?

And if they do, how do we know that they -haven't- used it? They very well might have, if it's as perfect as you claim. It's entirely possible that they have used it, but haven't revealed that fact for the same reasons they wouldn't reveal that the Blood Ravens are Sons. The shitstorm that knowledge would stir up just isn't worth it - and they can't afford to waste the Astartes.

An "otherwise loyal Chapter" which at some point in their history has had a full half of the Chapter go traitor, under the command of a possessed Librarian.

That seems like the kind of thing that would be more likely to happen to someone not of Thousand Sons lineage, now doesn't it?

... Actually, that sounds like something that WOULD happen to someone of Thousand Sons lineage. The Sons showed they were more willing to follow their Primarch rather than their Emperor, so it makes sense (at least to me) for at least half the chapter to follow their Chapter Master/Librarian down his path of folly, instead of staying true to the Corpse-Emperor. And who better to become possessed than a Librarian who hasn't had the full training of the original Thousand Sons?

Once again, because you're wanting it to.

Wanting to has nothing to do with it. If I actually saw something that actively disputed it, I'd quite happily admit to it. And discuss it, and theorise about it, and go off on wild tangents and conjecture, just like I do with the stuff that supports the theory. Discussion and bouncing ideas around is half the fun!

If there was enough solid evidence that the Ravens totally, utterly could not be from the Sons, then I'd acknowledge and accept that.

Of course, I'd then proceed to ignore it in my own little personal universe. I reject your reality and substitute it with my own! But I wouldn't try to force my view on other people, either, or tell them that OMG THEY'RE TOTALLY WRONG HOW DARE U.

And the author of "Rebirth" is considered by a few other BL authors to have been very hamfisted with how he did it. Fact of the matter is that it has not established any real, positive connection. All it has established is that because of a turn of a shoulderpad, the Corvidae symbol looked like a raven skull covered in blood.

I do agree that it was rather... blatant. But that doesn't negate the fact that it's THERE. Sure, it's not a definitive answer one way or another, but then again NOTHING is. It's just another source of tidbits of information for people to take and run with, and draw their own conclusions.

I should have clarified more. I am not referring to the precognitive ability in my post. I am referring to PSYCHIC ability.
Every single member of the Thousand Sons was psychic, in some way or another.

That's just it though. NOT EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of the Thousand Sons was psychic. Not even the MAJORITY of them were.

Like I said earlier in the thread - if there were THAT many psychic Sons, there would be far more sorcerers and far LESS Rubricae. As it is, it's well established that Rubricae - and by extension, Sons with LITTLE TO NO PSYCHIC TALENT, far outnumbered the Sons that WERE psychic. Just because we only see psychic Sons in the fluff so far doesn't mean that they were all psychic - it just means that the psychic ones were more relevant/interesting to write about.

You have to remember that the more high-ranking members of the Sons weren't necessarily just powerful. They were able to express their abilities more, and usually able to engage in more than one particular form of psychic combat.

I do remember that. That wasn't my point though - my point was that not all the Sons were psychic, and not all the psychic Sons were powerful or equivalent to a Librarian.

This I'm not sure of. Most of the "intense training of the Sons" wasn't. They were more about study and the usage of their familiars than actually knowing exactly what they were doing.

Isn't it mentioned in several places that the Sons were the most highly-trained in regards to the mental disciplines of all the Legions? I can't remember specifics, and I may be misremembering the general lines, but that's the overall impression I got.

And "A Thousand Sons" overwrites that, as every single member of the Legion exhibits some form of psyker abilities.

Where, specifically, does it say that? I never got that impression. Yes, all the named characters were psychic, but that's been explained. They were ranking members, they became ranking members BECAUSE of their psychic talents. That doesn't mean that ALL the Sons were psychic.

The codex might say that "only the non-psykers were turned to Rubric Marines", but the book now suggests otherwise. It suggests that those who were affected by the Flesh Change were those who became Rubric Marines.

I don't recall it suggesting that the flesh change was limited to the psychic Sons, or that it was only those affected by the flesh change that became Rubricae.

If it was those who were affected by the flesh change that became Rubricae, and if only the psychic Sons were affected by the flesh change... then only PSYCHIC Sons would've become Rubricae, and the NON-PSYCHIC ones would have stayed the same.

Kanluwen, why are you so determined to prove us wrong? I'm sure you can see that unless you can get GW to say outright Blood Ravens arent descended from TS then you won't change our minds. And if you hate doing this soooo much then why bother. Spend your time elsewhere and your sure you'll find more enjoyment then this. Just leave us to discuss this topic without you saying, Na yur wrong, over and over again. Just leave this thread to run it's course and then it will end.

The pseudo-Inquisitor-Priest isn't gonna give up. He's the real world equivalent of a 40k Ecclesiarchy Missionary determined to stop free thinking.

Tadashi wrote:The pseudo-Inquisitor-Priest isn't gonna give up. He's the real world equivalent of a 40k Ecclesiarchy Missionary determined to stop free thinking.

You're both as bad as each other.

You have a point, as does Kan.

Blood Raven are Thousand Sons OMG!! threads should be banned, they always end the same way

I'm not saying that blood ravens are I'm just saying that there is a possibility, which kanluwen seems to disagree with.

At least I don't condemn other people's opinions to the point I become infamous for it. Kan is known for crushing Blood Raven threads.

Tadashi wrote:At least I don't condemn other people's opinions to the point I become infamous for it. Kan is known for crushing Blood Raven threads.

Maybe you should have viewed the numerous Blood Raven/Thousand Sons threads before, rather than start another one far Kan to rant in as there are a few . No new ground has really been covered, or will it more than likely ever.

There are nods towards them being Thousand Sons, and I'm on the fence, there is a possibility that they could be, but like Kan says, there is lots of evidence that debunks this theory. Sometimes coincidence is exactly that.

What you could do is get every source you can to suggest that the link is there, quotes and citations and put it in one big post and go from there.

So far I have not seen any evidence that says otherwise.

Kunjax96 wrote:So far I have not seen any evidence that says otherwise.

That's because a lot of the evidence presented is circumstantial. It doesn't need to say otherwise.

Like I mentioned earlier, once is chance, twice is coincidence, three times is conspiracy.

If (generic) you want to convince people that the Sons/Ravens link is NOT POSSIBLE then yes, there does need to be evidence. And not just "old fluff vs new fluff" or "I'm ignoring that bit because I don't like it/the author sucks/whatever".

As it is, there are, IMO anyway, far too many "little coincidences", hints and clues that point to the Sons/Ravens link being POSSIBLE.

Not being irrefutable, mind - I am not stating, nor have I ever stated, that the Sons/Ravens link MUST BE TRUE. I'm just saying that there's far too much saying it's possible, and nothing - or nearly nothing, that I've seen - that says it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:At least I don't condemn other people's opinions to the point I become infamous for it. Kan is known for crushing Blood Raven threads.

Maybe you should have viewed the numerous Blood Raven/Thousand Sons threads before, rather than start another one far Kan to rant in as there are a few . No new ground has really been covered, or will it more than likely ever.

There are nods towards them being Thousand Sons, and I'm on the fence, there is a possibility that they could be, but like Kan says, there is lots of evidence that debunks this theory. Sometimes coincidence is exactly that.

What you could do is get every source you can to suggest that the link is there, quotes and citations and put it in one big post and go from there.

If I reopen those, it's thread necromancy.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:At least I don't condemn other people's opinions to the point I become infamous for it. Kan is known for crushing Blood Raven threads.

Maybe you should have viewed the numerous Blood Raven/Thousand Sons threads before, rather than start another one far Kan to rant in as there are a few . No new ground has really been covered, or will it more than likely ever.

There are nods towards them being Thousand Sons, and I'm on the fence, there is a possibility that they could be, but like Kan says, there is lots of evidence that debunks this theory. Sometimes coincidence is exactly that.

What you could do is get every source you can to suggest that the link is there, quotes and citations and put it in one big post and go from there.

If I reopen those, it's thread necromancy.

My point was you haven't covered anything different than those threads already have, did you really need to start another conversation going over the same details? If you had something new to throw into the pot then fair enough, new thread. Otherwise it's just more Kan bait.

This thread has given me some new stuff to chew over. And has been highly entertaining for most of the evening, hehehe. Just because you've seen it all before doesn't mean everyone else has.

Also, I've never seen anyone else make the Thousand Sons/Eldar connection that I mentioned on the first page. It's a tenuous connection, yes, but hey, it could be entertaining to muse over for a bit.

Skits wrote:This thread has given me some new stuff to chew over. And has been highly entertaining for most of the evening, hehehe. Just because you've seen it all before doesn't mean everyone else has.

Still, there is a search function which would answer pretty much everything already stated on this thread

That still wouldn't have been as entertaining.

Skits wrote:That still wouldn't have been as entertaining.

Oh I don't know, you should have a read of some of them.

Kan's definitely a key feature

What makes you think I haven't?

Honestly, if I just wanted to read stuff, I'd go read a wiki. Or, Emperor forbid, an actual book. However, I always thought the point of a forum was to, y'know, interact with people. Share thoughts, bounce ideas around, engage in dialogue, discuss differing points of view, talk with each other. I can't do that in a necro'd thread.

The topic of this thread is, to me, like a giant jigsaw puzzle. One that nobody has the picture to, half the pieces are missing, the rest of the pieces could fit together in multiple ways and still form something of a picture, and the content of gaps could be guessed at by the shapes that the pieces we do have make around them. I've picked up a few new pieces during the discussion here, and I'm always looking for new ways to put them together. I've also quite enjoyed the discussions I've had in this thread so far.

Now, if you've read or participated in threads like this before, there's nothing forcing you to read this one as well. I know I skip over a whole ton of threads because they're not relevant to my particular interests. However, if nobody could make threads that have been made before, or talk about things that have been discussed previously, then this would be a gorram bloody boring forum.

With all that said... it's 2am here and I'm going to bed now. Hopefully I'll be able to continue the discussion in the morning!

This thread has existed before, (I started one myself last year or so), but in my opinion it is ok this new one exists as there have been more hints in the fluff since, and for many the debate will be new.

I highly suggest though that anyone who has been bickering for more than 2 pages repeating themselves ad-nauseum is getting dangerously close to having their posts considered spam and borderline harassment. NO ONE is provably right, therefore all theories or positions are just that, theories. Conduct your discussions as such.

So, one: Thousand Sons and Magnus the Red. They don't suffer the flesh-change because they don't practice sorcery.

[quoteStrike one. Every single member of the Thousand Sons suffered from the flesh-change. Hence why the Legion is almost entirely consistent of suits of animated armor, with the Sorcerers being the only ones who have retained their physical bodies. [quote

The Rubric of Ahriman could worked on the marines outside of the warp and turned to dust the ones inside.

MajorTom11 wrote:This thread has existed before, (I started one myself last year or so), but in my opinion it is ok this new one exists as there have been more hints in the fluff since, and for many the debate will be new.

I highly suggest though that anyone who has been bickering for more than 2 pages repeating themselves ad-nauseum is getting dangerously close to having their posts considered spam and borderline harassment. NO ONE is provably right, therefore all theories or positions are just that, theories. Conduct your discussions as such.

Or to expand upon this a bit:

You are free to discuss and argue this topic until your fingers are just bloody stumps if you want, but you MUST keep the argument focused on the topic and not each other. Also remember that when having arguments about events in a fictitious universe there is no universal truth, as the 'facts' change every time a new piece of fiction is written. So, for example, we can never truly know whether Batman would beat Superman ( ) because that entirely depends upon who would write the story. Some authors would write that batman would win (so he would) and some authors would write that Superman would win (so he would).

In this case, you're trying to deduce an alleged mystery based on 'facts' spread about multiple sources written by multiple authors. You have no idea whether anyone at GW has an answer to the underlying question or whether it is simply intentionally vague. And even if one person knows the answer it doesn't mean that all the other people writing even have knowledge of that fact, so anything they write that seems to allude to your query may simply be a coincidence...or it could be intentional.

So the point is, no matter what, this is your personal opinion based on how you perceive the 'facts' you've read. It is fine to try to convince someone else that they've misinterpreted the 'facts' but at the end of the day it is one person's opinion vs. another person's opinion.

It is therefore fine to say: 'I personally feel you are wrong based on X'. But it is NOT FINE to say: 'you are wrong based on X'.

If you anyone is getting tired of reading the same arguments remember that you always have the choice to not reply and/or not read the thread. And if you're sick of writing the same things over and over again I suggest writing up a treatise on the topic (perhaps even as an article) and then just anytime the topic starts again you can post a link to your thread or article to save you the time and energy of re-typing it out.


So yes, by all means continue the discussion. But please remember that your opinion is your opinion and another person's opinion is their opinion which they are entitled to have. If there is anyone who can't manage to follow that basic code of discussion etiquette then I strongly suggest they refrain from posting any further in this thread (or in threads discussing similar topics).