I got the idea for this poll after thinking for a while about ^ question. Maybe its the elder. But hang on, don't the crons now have very good tech after the new dex? I thought, why not let the Dakka community answer the question for me, so I created this poll. Have fun.

The Necrons have the most powerful technology. To the point where Space Marines have an extremely hard time battling them. Fall of Damnos gives you a good idea of how the Necrons wage war using their tech. It's truly scary.

And it's "Eldar" not "Elder". /nitpick

This isn't a very easy question to answer as all the different races have a very different core/base to their technology. Nids have impossibly advanced biological based technology and Orks have impossibly durable technology which could be classified as advanced.

I general though I would have to make this a three way tie between Eldar, Dark Eldar and Necrons as they are the oldest and most advanced civilizations in the traditional sense. Eldar technology is heavily tied in with psychic powers whereas Necron tech is purely based in the physical realm so its pretty hard to seperate them. I put Dark Eldar up there as despite having removed the psychic emphasis of Eldar they hold on to more of the technology from when the Eldar civilization was at its peak.

Necrons, no contest.
They have a room full of lighballs that makes star in real life goes supernova if destroyed.
They are tough to the point that even Astartes have hard time opposing them.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
The difference between magic and technology is moot.

Necrons, hands down.

I remember a blip in the last codex about how Gauss Technology was "Theoretically impossible" by someone in the Imperium. The new codex goes even more indeph about it.

Really though, it shouldn't be all that surprising. They've had over a billion years headstart on most of the Galaxy.

Personally, I don't think that Tyranids or Orks would qualify for such a poll. None of these two races sports proper technology - one is plain simple biological mutation (albeit with remarkable results) and the other uses stuff that sort-of-works solely due to psychic phenomena. Technology necessiates knowledge, and an Ork with a shoota is no different from a feral world psyker managing to conjure a beam of deadly energy out of a hollow tube. Neither is a scientist just because stuff just happens to work in their favour.

As for the rest, I'm inclined to agree with Powerguy in that each faction seems to possess some unique area in which they appear more advanced than the others.

With Necrons, one would probably have to ask whether to judge their current state or the potential stored in their ancient databanks - I'm quite sure that the Necrons only employ a tiny fraction of what the Necrontyr once invented, possibly even having lost any interest in accessing and replicating much of what they had mastered millions of years ago. Though this viewpoint is admittedly based entirely on the "oldskool" Necrons; I don't know all the changes in the new version. Though I'd still find it somewhat hard to believe that there are labcoat 'crons.

But why are the Space Marines listed separately? Just like the rest of the Imperium, their technology is dependent entirely on the Mechanicus.

Necrons > Eldar/Dark Eldar > Tau > Imperium > Orks

Tyranids really can't be judged alongside the others.

The necrons have time travel. How is this even a question?

Definately the Necrons. I'd say either Imperium (Atleast the older technology) or Tau are 2nd.

Harriticus wrote:Necrons > Eldar/Dark Eldar > Tau > Imperium > Orks

Tyranids really can't be judged alongside the others.

Is Eldar technology actually that advanced? I thought it was mostly reliant on Psykers.

Necrons > Eldar > Tau.

Is Eldar technology actually that advanced? I thought it was mostly reliant on Psykers.

Have you ever seen an Eldar vehicle or soldier? Ever read about them? Much is based on their psychic abilitites, like how a shuriken catapult is fired with the mind and not a trigger. But how is this different? An Eldar firing with his mind is just as normal to him as a human firing with his finger is normal to him.

Necrons. Hilariously, it was that advanced before mankind had even evolved into our current stages.

Are we talking normal eldar or craftworld eldar. Because craftworld eldar are like the amish of the eldar.

nomotog wrote:Because craftworld eldar are like the amish of the eldar.

Don't you mean Exodites? I'm no expert on Eldar, but I know this distinction.

Lynata wrote:

nomotog wrote:Because craftworld eldar are like the amish of the eldar.

Don't you mean Exodites? I'm no expert on Eldar, but I know this distinction.

I am no expert, but I was told that the craftworld eldar are a subset of eldar that left on ships taking only the mast basic technology (by eldar standers). Much like how the amish live with out cars or electricity.

nomotog wrote:

Lynata wrote:

nomotog wrote:Because craftworld eldar are like the amish of the eldar.

Don't you mean Exodites? I'm no expert on Eldar, but I know this distinction.

I am no expert, but I was told that the craftworld eldar are a subset of eldar that left on ships taking only the mast basic technology (by eldar standers). Much like how the amish live with out cars or electricity.

Craftworlders are quite advanced. Exodites are the ahmish of Eldar but of course still super advanced.

Harriticus wrote:Necrons > Eldar/Dark Eldar > Imperium > Tau > Orks

Tyranids really can't be judged alongside the others.

Fixed that for you, the high-end technology of the Imperium is more advanced than that of the Tau, while the Tau have an easier time producing theirs.

Necrons > Eldar/Dark Eldar > Imperium > Chaos > Tau > orks > Tyranids
Sorry but tau are not as high in technology standards as the imperium. The imperium has rail gun turrets on space craft, and starfighters and they are 2x more powerful.

For me it is:

1. Necrons
2. Eldar/Dark Eldar
3. Imperium/Nidz
4. Orks/Tau
5. Chaos

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Craftworlders are quite advanced. Exodites are the ahmish of Eldar but of course still super advanced.

*nods* I believe the Craftworld Eldar are the "normal Eldar" - you know, the ones that you can play in the Tabletop.

Exodites are reclusive settlers, and ... I believe there was a third group that stayed behind on their homeworlds and is now something "in-between" normal and Dark Eldar due to the influence of Chaos on this region of space, but I may well remember wrong. I'm sure an Eldar player can explain this with more accuracy and greater detail.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Craftworlders are quite advanced. Exodites are the ahmish of Eldar but of course still super advanced.

*nods* I believe the Craftworld Eldar are the "normal Eldar" - you know, the ones that you can play in the Tabletop.

Exodites are reclusive settlers, and ... I believe there was a third group that stayed behind on their homeworlds and is now something "in-between" normal and Dark Eldar due to the influence of Chaos on this region of space, but I may well remember wrong. I'm sure an Eldar player can explain this with more accuracy and greater detail.

They are located within the halo stars and the ghoul stars which are pretty far away from attack.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Craftworlders are quite advanced. Exodites are the ahmish of Eldar but of course still super advanced.

*nods* I believe the Craftworld Eldar are the "normal Eldar" - you know, the ones that you can play in the Tabletop.

Exodites are reclusive settlers, and ... I believe there was a third group that stayed behind on their homeworlds and is now something "in-between" normal and Dark Eldar due to the influence of Chaos on this region of space, but I may well remember wrong. I'm sure an Eldar player can explain this with more accuracy and greater detail.

Exodites are the ones that live on planets. Although Eldar don't like to admit it Dark Eldar are the "normal" eldar.

Basically there's 4 types of Eldar: Craftworld, Dark, Exodite and Harlequin. All of which our descended from "Ancient Eldar".

Necrons have most advanced.

2nd place is contested between the Imperium and the Eldar, all kinds, depending on if you include psychic based "tech" in Advanced Technology. if you don't then the Imperium shoots far ahead. if you include psychic 'tech' then the Imperium is behind, but humanity once was as advanced(during the Dark Age)

Tau rank 4th(behind whoever is in 3rd)

Orks break all the rules so we can't really include them.

Chaos is just Imperial with spiky bits and an extra hand.

Nids are completely organic so don't count.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Although Eldar don't like to admit it Dark Eldar are the "normal" eldar.

Hmm, I confess that's an interesting point of view...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Basically there's 4 types of Eldar: Craftworld, Dark, Exodite and Harlequin. All of which our descended from "Ancient Eldar".

Also, Outcasts. I just looked up the Eldar article on Lexicanum, where I think I've read about this distinction in the first place.

The Crone Worlds are mentioned as well, but sadly the article doesn't go into detail concerning the living style of the Eldar still there...

Anyways, I guess that solves it. Back to topic, sorry for the bit of sidetracking.

Imho I belive orks simply have the greatest potential in advanced tech, as let's face it they can loot anything.

Necrons > Eldar/Imperium > Tau > Orks > Chaos

Chaos runs along with "Believe really hard so it works" but at least we have seen the Orks come out with some crazy teleportation tech.

Chaos is more concerned with sorcery and killing than Tech really. If Tech didn't allow them to kill better they would not even use it.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Although Eldar don't like to admit it Dark Eldar are the "normal" eldar.

Hmm, I confess that's an interesting point of view...

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Basically there's 4 types of Eldar: Craftworld, Dark, Exodite and Harlequin. All of which our descended from "Ancient Eldar".

Also, Outcasts. I just looked up the Eldar article on Lexicanum, where I think I've read about this distinction in the first place.

The Crone Worlds are mentioned as well, but sadly the article doesn't go into detail concerning the living style of the Eldar still there...

Anyways, I guess that solves it. Back to topic, sorry for the bit of sidetracking.

The Crone worlds were the domain of the Ancient Eldar so there's none there. Basically they comprise the Eye of Terror.

Outcasts are more like a path. Like Rangers.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Crone worlds were the domain of the Ancient Eldar so there's none there. Basically they comprise the Eye of Terror.

Ah, in that case I suppose that's another case where Lexicanum isn't quite as reliable.

I don't see how what Lexicanum says is contradicted in this instance. Is there newer fluff saying there arn't any Eldar there?

And even if it does it wouldn't have to be a contradiction. Any Eldar there will have been Mindraped long ago and couldn't really be considered functioning individuals.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The Crone worlds were the domain of the Ancient Eldar so there's none there. Basically they comprise the Eye of Terror.

Ah, in that case I suppose that's another case where Lexicanum isn't quite as reliable.

Seems ok to me: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Crone_Worlds

Are you talking about how it says there's eldar there? I guess that's possible but I think we're getting into metaphors of how they're now in hell.

EDIT: quasi ninja'd by GT.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Are you talking about how it says there's eldar there? I guess that's possible but I think we're getting into metaphors of how they're now in hell.

That's what I meant, yes. If the Crone Worlds are the only source of spirit stones, that very much sounds to me as if all Craftworlds would have to go back there from time to time, sending brave explorers to pick up a new cache. And if these journeys do happen - as it also says in the article - then the Eldar that still live there, do still live there (quite literally and not metaphorically) and may even be encountered by those Craftworld explorers.

I'd only be interested in how they live, exactly. I vaguely recall having read something, but this was years ago and my memory is a mess when it comes to details that don't concern an area I am focusing on. :(

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Are you talking about how it says there's eldar there? I guess that's possible but I think we're getting into metaphors of how they're now in hell.

That's what I meant, yes. If the Crone Worlds are the only source of spirit stones, that very much sounds to me as if all Craftworlds would have to go back there from time to time, sending brave explorers to pick up a new cache. And if these journeys do happen - as it also says in the article - then the Eldar that still live there, do still live there (quite literally and not metaphorically) and may even be encountered by those Craftworld explorers.

I'd only be interested in how they live, exactly. I vaguely recall having read something, but this was years ago and my memory is a mess when it comes to details that don't concern an area I am focusing on. :(

I wasn't aware that Spirit stones are only available on crone worlds. Well, that sucks for them. I recall reading that Ancient Eldar are "extinct" which sounds pretty definative to me. I think it may be the case of a retcon because iirc all Eldar in the Slaneesh "blast radius" (the eye of terror) where killed. But even if some suvived that, somehow I can't imagine they's be recognizable as anything "Eldar" anymore so it's safe to call that line dead. However, the Dark Eldar carry on their culture and ways so they live on in a way.

Necrons, duh. Humans during the Dark Age of Technology and Eldar at the height of the Eldar Empire come close though. As of 40k, not even the Tau come close.

Lynata wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Are you talking about how it says there's eldar there? I guess that's possible but I think we're getting into metaphors of how they're now in hell.

That's what I meant, yes. If the Crone Worlds are the only source of spirit stones, that very much sounds to me as if all Craftworlds would have to go back there from time to time, sending brave explorers to pick up a new cache. And if these journeys do happen - as it also says in the article - then the Eldar that still live there, do still live there (quite literally and not metaphorically) and may even be encountered by those Craftworld explorers.

I'd only be interested in how they live, exactly. I vaguely recall having read something, but this was years ago and my memory is a mess when it comes to details that don't concern an area I am focusing on. :(

Of course its possable that the Crone Worlds are stuck in a sort of Stasis so it hasn't been very long since the Fall from the perspective of local time. So there might be some poor sods stuck there in a long drawn out 10,000 years of Slannesh fondling. Then every few seconds a couple of Farseers dash by to grab some Spirit Stones and GTFO.

Grey Templar wrote:
Of course its possable that the Crone Worlds are stuck in a sort of Stasis so it hasn't been very long since the Fall from the perspective of local time. So there might be some poor sods stuck there in a long drawn out 10,000 years of Slannesh fondling. Then every few seconds a couple of Farseers dash by to grab some Spirit Stones and GTFO.

Actually Lexicanum states Atlas Infernal as source which afair is only book which states that all Eldar in EoT weren't instadead during birth of Slaanesh. And in book descendants of these survivors are described very much like inhabitants of imperial underhives - ie wretched creatures with deformities and mutations and without most of ancestors' knowledges. Though CW Eldar have no problem communicating with them, so they're not outright chaos worshippers. And of course there were CW Rangers...


'bout technological level in WH40K...Necron>Eldar>Ork/Human>Tau

Orks are not technologically impared as they rely on Waagh!field not for their tech to work at all but for it not to fail - i.e. there's no Ork tech that couldn't be researched and replicated by any other technological race ....'cept Snotling Cannon

Necrons without a doubt,

The ONLY reason the Galaxy isnt in the hands of the Necrons, is the fact that they're too lazy to wake up!

81Northman wrote:
The ONLY reason the Galaxy isnt in the hands of the Necrons, is the fact that they're too lazy to wake up!

I doubt that even if they awaken earlier they would beat the Eldar who were on height of their power.
Or Emperor and his 20 Legions for that matter.

Necrons are many hundreds of millenia infront of any of the younger races.

On the matter of Necrons not ruling the galaxy atm it is because they are separated, weakened and not fully awakened. The necrons we're once the galaxies most powerful faction and I have no doubt in my mind that at their prime not even the Imperium at its very zenith of power would have the power to stand against them. But its hard to say, I guess we will never know.

Necrons followed by Dark Eldar / Craftworld Eldar
The Necrons lost almost non of their advanced technology while the two Eldar factions had to suffer the Fall.

Jokaero

Give them a piece of bubble gum, spork and a AAA battery and they would make you a death ray of such destructive proportions that any Necron lord would TREMBLE in their WD40'd joints.

chyron wrote:Actually Lexicanum states Atlas Infernal as source which afair is only book which states that all Eldar in EoT weren't instadead during birth of Slaanesh.

Oh, a Black Library novel? But the Codices say the opposite? Well, that clears it up for me - thanks, I'll keep this in mind. A bit sad, though, the idea isn't actually half bad I think...

And yeah, Jokaero are the real McGuyvers of 40k.

Another interesting case, though, somewhat similar to the Orks. From what I've read, Jokaero aren't really smart or knowledgeable, they just happen to build things that work without actually having a clue about the why's - it's even worse than the Mechanicus. I suppose it's got to be something about genetic memory. Makes you wonder where they have it from ... are the Jokaero another once-superior race that devolved over the millennia?

Grey Templar wrote:

'bout technological level in WH40K...Necron>Eldar>Ork/Human>Tau

Orks are not technologically impared as they rely on Waagh!field not for their tech to work at all but for it not to fail - i.e. there's no Ork tech that couldn't be researched and replicated by any other technological race ....'cept Snotling Cannon

Ork technology does not always work when used by non-orks, it only works because of the field the Orks generate, so in many cases it would not be able to replicated. They also tend to just loot other races stuff so it isn't really their own, they don't know how it works.

What do the Eldar have that makes them more advanced than the Tau that doesn't involve psykers? I don't know much about the Eldar.

There is a difference between more advanced and more powerful.

Lynata wrote:

chyron wrote:Actually Lexicanum states Atlas Infernal as source which afair is only book which states that all Eldar in EoT weren't instadead during birth of Slaanesh.

Oh, a Black Library novel? But the Codices say the opposite? Well, that clears it up for me - thanks, I'll keep this in mind. A bit sad, though, the idea isn't actually half bad I think...

And yeah, Jokaero are the real McGuyvers of 40k.

Another interesting case, though, somewhat similar to the Orks. From what I've read, Jokaero aren't really smart or knowledgeable, they just happen to build things that work without actually having a clue about the why's - it's even worse than the Mechanicus. I suppose it's got to be something about genetic memory. Makes you wonder where they have it from ... are the Jokaero another once-superior race that devolved over the millennia?

Or possibly another one of the Old ones children? They are alot of those around.

Necron, with Eldar a close second.

It's interesting how Eldar and Necron technologies sometimes match each other. Where the Necrons have (had) biotransference and stasis crypts, the Eldar have Spirit Jewels and the Infinity Circuit. Necrons have necrodermis, Eldars have wraithbone, and so on...

I'm also inclined to think that Tyranids are fairly advanced, even if their concept of technology is completely alien to us.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
What do the Eldar have that makes them more advanced than the Tau that doesn't involve psykers? I don't know much about the Eldar.

There is a difference between more advanced and more powerful.

The Webway. Shuriken weaponry. Laser technology (brightlances, scatter lasers, prism cannons). Holo-Fields. Could be more.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:

I'm also inclined to think that Tyranids are fairly advanced, even if their concept of technology is completely alien to us.

Good point. They may not be technologically advanced as we know it but they are incredibly highly evolved creatures. I find the whole symbiotic idea behind them very fascinating.

The order is as follows:

Necrons, Eldar/Tau, Imperium/Chaos, Orks, Tyranids.

Necrons are best because they're Necrons. (tech scale 'Doomsday')
Eldar tech has plateaued at 'Awesome' and Tau are Shooting themselves out of a cannon at 'Gunpowder' and sailing right on past 'Awesome' to 'Run, Just Run'. At the moment they are About at 'Awesome'. Imperium and Chaos are at 'Awesome, but Impractical'. Orks are at '%^%$' and Tyranids don't know what tech is.

For Reference, the scale is:

Run, Just Run > Doomsday > Awesome > Awesome, but Impractical > Modern > Gunpowder > ^&%$&^ > Bugs.

Thatguy91 wrote:

Lynata wrote:

chyron wrote:Actually Lexicanum states Atlas Infernal as source which afair is only book which states that all Eldar in EoT weren't instadead during birth of Slaanesh.

Oh, a Black Library novel? But the Codices say the opposite? Well, that clears it up for me - thanks, I'll keep this in mind. A bit sad, though, the idea isn't actually half bad I think...

And yeah, Jokaero are the real McGuyvers of 40k.

Another interesting case, though, somewhat similar to the Orks. From what I've read, Jokaero aren't really smart or knowledgeable, they just happen to build things that work without actually having a clue about the why's - it's even worse than the Mechanicus. I suppose it's got to be something about genetic memory. Makes you wonder where they have it from ... are the Jokaero another once-superior race that devolved over the millennia?

Or possibly another one of the Old ones children? They are alot of those around.

They were created by the Old Ones. They really are as intelligent as a chimpanzees but can make a lascannon that can fit into a ring because that was programmed into their DNA, exactly like Orks.

Uhh Necrons are living machines with nano level repair technologies, and a light bright room that shortens suns lives by millenia, so I would guess it would be a no brainer in the highest tech dept.

Well i ghess that answers the question, and I quite like your tech scale gabrielhorus. Sorry about the misspelling, but I have no idea how to fix it. Maybe a mod can help. I quite serprised that Dark Eldar are so much lower than Eldar. Is this a case of bias towards the more pritty guys.

Edit; if you need more clearafication on the question, we are taking the tech level from the pressent game setting (999999.M41), not during the peek of said factions prime.

Should be able to hit the edit button on your original post.

ofc its necrons, there tech was by far the most advanced before mankind even existed, there even working on a machine to reseal the barrier between reality and the immaterium that the old ones so rudely left open when they got spanked silly

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Should be able to hit the edit button on your original post.

Ahhh found it now. Thanks

Ledabot wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Should be able to hit the edit button on your original post.

Ahhh found it now. Thanks

pssst: it's spelled Mechanicum

I copyed the spelling from the brb, i really should put the Adeptus bit in to though

How is this even a question? Necrons of course. No other technology can even compare.

Joey wrote:"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"
The difference between magic and technology is moot.

Not really as being mistaken for and being equal to does not mean the same thing.
Technology obeys the laws of physics and can be used by anyone who understands it. Magic -or in this case psyker powers- does not obey the laws of physics and can only be used by those which are borne with that ability.

Out of curiosity what makes the necrons more advanced then the Eldar?
I would say they are equal, if not, then whoever does win wins by a microscopic margin.

Can we get some real comparisons on necron and eldar technology?

I'd say a tie of sorts between Necrons and Eldar

Ex.

Eldar have impressive control over and within the warp compared to other psyker species and can use it to predict likely outcomes in the future and do what they can to avert it

Necrons are warp-less persay but can still predict the future using mindboggling mathematics

The necrons have to hack their way into the Webway with huge Dolmen gates.

The DE can make a hole with a portable generator the size of a suppository.

Necrons in the old dex were uncontestably the most awesome tech. Inertialess drives, Unkillable tanks, teleportation across the galaxy etc.

The new one, not so much. Some of thier tech is pretty awesome, but other bits make yo scratch your head a bit at why such an awesomely hi-tech race can't figure out a work-around.

It would be fairer to say that certain races are more advanced in one or two areas than the others, but weaker in other areas.

Necrons for sure.

On a slightly different tangent, why are Tau behind the Imperium? The Tau have adapted Rail-Cannons onto smaller tanks and suits, have plasma guns which melt Terminator armor just as well without the possibility of turning the user into molten slag, have developed a stronger and longer reaching standard firearm than the Imperium with the Pulse rifle, and make use of semi-autonomous drones which can carry anything from the smallest, yet still deadly Railgun to generating a shield for a commander.

The Imperium, on the other hand, turns something as simple as starting a Rhino or preparing a gun into a small ritual, complete with litanies, and not fully understanding WHY the ritual needs to take place. I mean, sure, it's an awesome concept as far as background goes, but at least the Tau have a full understanding of the technology that they use.

Because the IOM fanboys refuse to accept that a xeno race that hasn't been officially stated as being better than the current state of human tech, might be

There's fluff justification that they are, but then there's fluff justification that they are more advanced than the eldar too, which is just silly

Tau are ahead of the IOM in some areas, and behind in others. I would put them as on par, but pulling ahead, while then IOM is regressing.

The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too pussy to create a gun that fires a small sun.

Necrons, even with the removal of the inertialess drives they still have the best technology. Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tyranids being second followed by Tau/IoM and Orks/Chaos.

Tyranids have advanced bio-engineering capabilities, while they lack in other areas they cover the issues with bio-tech. This would put them up around the current Eldar level.

Tau and IoM are roughly equal. Each have some areas they are better at than the other keeping them on somewhat equal grounds. The Tau lack resources to take advantage of this though.

The Orks and Chaos are actually very close to the Tau/IoM. The IoM still uses a bunch of the stuff the Chaos are stuck with, but Chaos also covers some of the shortfalls with Daemon technology. The Orks seem to make stuff on the spot to somewhat deal with the current situation using what there is to hand, while it is resourceful it is not advanced.

This is all just in my opinion of course.

Cryonicleech wrote:Necrons for sure.

On a slightly different tangent, why are Tau behind the Imperium? The Tau have adapted Rail-Cannons onto smaller tanks and suits, have plasma guns which melt Terminator armor just as well without the possibility of turning the user into molten slag, have developed a stronger and longer reaching standard firearm than the Imperium with the Pulse rifle, and make use of semi-autonomous drones which can carry anything from the smallest, yet still deadly Railgun to generating a shield for a commander.

The Imperium, on the other hand, turns something as simple as starting a Rhino or preparing a gun into a small ritual, complete with litanies, and not fully understanding WHY the ritual needs to take place. I mean, sure, it's an awesome concept as far as background goes, but at least the Tau have a full understanding of the technology that they use.

Tau don't have direct counterpart to insert random IoM tech that is super rare, unrelible, or only exist in a single story. That's general the reason most people bring up.

The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too pussy to create a gun that fires a small sun.

Got a referance for that?

I think you're confusing the Tau rail weapons with the Tau PLASMA weapons.

IoM has clumbsy plasma weapns that explode because they follow an outdated/incomplete STC. The Tau have a controlled/mastered technology of plasma weapons.

The main difference between the two is that the IoM is willing to let their soldiers die using plasma weapons. Tau have a high value on life.

Golden Sabre wrote:The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too intelligent to create a gun that turns the user into a small sun.

Fixed that for you.

The Tau method is a good deal safer, and only marginally less destructive, plus they can mass-produce it. The IOM has a very limited, and dwindling, supply of plasma weapons IIRC.

The big argument for the Imperium being ahead is that, technically speaking, the AdMech has tech hidden away beyond what the Tau have accomplished. Matter/energy converters, teleporters, planet busters, void shields, nano-tech, transhuman tech, vortex grenades, anti-aging treatments, and true-AI are all beyond the Tau's current capabilities, and it is hinted that the AdMech is still hiding away their most powerful tech.

The Tau's tech is definitely more advanced than Imperial average, but the heights of human tech are still above what the tau can pull off. But the vast majority of the time this doesn't matter as the AdMech hordes everything away and doesn't like to share.

It's also likely it is in some bunker somewhere on Mars and entirely forgotten about.

Ascalam wrote:

Golden Sabre wrote:The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too intelligent to create a gun that turns the user into a small sun.

Fixed that for you.

The Tau method is a good deal safer, and only marginally less destructive, plus they can mass-produce it. The IOM has a very limited, and dwindling, supply of plasma weapons IIRC.

It is more accurate to say the Imperium doesn't value human life and so allows their weaponry to be overloaded to increase damage output at the cost of safety. They can be fired safely, but in game terms, in the head of battle, you are considered to have a 1/6 chance that the operator is going to get a little over-excited. And over-heated doesn't necessarily mean dead, just out of combat. They could be a crispy meat bag, or just have an overheated gun which puts them out of combat.

And the Imperium is still producing plasma weaponry. Not lots, but they still produce it.

It's also not exactly all their own work

Retroengineered alien tech and Ctan inspiration, for example

n0t_u wrote:It's also likely it is in some bunker somewhere on Mars and entirely forgotten about.

Yes, a lot of it is, but not all of it.

In the end the point still stands, the Imperium does have more advanced tech than the Tau, but access is restricted. And that is why people typically place the Imperium above the Tau on the tech ladder.

IoM does value human life, just happens to be worth less than a Lasgun.

Ascalam wrote:It's also not exactly all their own work

Retroengineered alien tech and Ctan inspiration, for example

Neither is the Tau's. Their warp tech is reverse engineered from a crashed ship. Doesn't really matter where it comes from.

riplikash wrote:

Ascalam wrote:

Golden Sabre wrote:The Tau do not have plasma guns...

The Imperium does.
The Imperium shoots pure plasma.

The Tau rely on a tungsten round traveling at a high enough velocity to produce a plasma flare, but it has no where near the destructive capabilities of the Imperial Plasma gun. Essentially, they fire fake plasma because they are too intelligent to create a gun that turns the user into a small sun.

Fixed that for you.

The Tau method is a good deal safer, and only marginally less destructive, plus they can mass-produce it. The IOM has a very limited, and dwindling, supply of plasma weapons IIRC.

It is more accurate to say the Imperium doesn't value human life and so allows their weaponry to be overloaded to increase damage output at the cost of safety. They can be fired safely, but in game terms, in the head of battle, you are considered to have a 1/6 chance that the operator is going to get a little over-excited. And over-heated doesn't necessarily mean dead, just out of combat. They could be a crispy meat bag, or just have an overheated gun which puts them out of combat.

And the Imperium is still producing plasma weaponry. Not lots, but they still produce it.

Hmm.. Source for that?

I seem to recall that being assigned the position of Plasma Gunner is generally considered to be tantemount to a firing squad, but the fluff could have moved on. I've not played IG in a few years. The IOM may have no regard for human life, but the gunner most certainly does, in most regiments.

I also seem to recall reading that the secret of making plasma weapons had been lost, but they could well have retconned that one too.

Tau allow there weapons to be overloaded and explode. The original rail rifle had the gets hot rule. It even came with a short little story of the an aun releasing the gun to production after seeing it kill it's user. It's not that the IoM dosen't care and the tau do. The tau just have the ability to fix the thing well the IoM dosen't.

Cryonicleech wrote:Necrons for sure.

On a slightly different tangent, why are Tau behind the Imperium? The Tau have adapted Rail-Cannons onto smaller tanks and suits, have plasma guns which melt Terminator armor just as well without the possibility of turning the user into molten slag, have developed a stronger and longer reaching standard firearm than the Imperium with the Pulse rifle, and make use of semi-autonomous drones which can carry anything from the smallest, yet still deadly Railgun to generating a shield for a commander.

The Imperium, on the other hand, turns something as simple as starting a Rhino or preparing a gun into a small ritual, complete with litanies, and not fully understanding WHY the ritual needs to take place. I mean, sure, it's an awesome concept as far as background goes, but at least the Tau have a full understanding of the technology that they use.

I guess that could be like someone in the middle ages who's an amazing archer and can hit a target from great distances. He knows everything about the art of archery and can readily create arrows. Some arrows can even bust through plate mail. Now imagine you have another person in the middle ages with an artillery piece. He may not understand what the heck he's doing, but all he knows is that if he completes the sacred ritual he can make things far away go boom

I'm not saying that the Tau and Imperium tech are like arrows and artillery, I'm just saying that they don't have to fully understand the tech to be more advanced. If that made any sense. It made sense when I practiced with myself

Ascalam wrote:
Hmm.. Source for that?

I seem to recall that being assigned the position of Plasma Gunner is generally considered to be tantemount to a firing squad, but the fluff could have moved on. I've not played IG in a few years. The IOM may have no regard for human life, but the gunner most certainly does, in most regiments.
I also seem to recall reading that the secret of making plasma weapons had been lost, but they could well have retconned that one too.

I'm going to have to turn that "source" question back around at you, I have never heard of the plasma gunner position being considered tantemount to a firing squad, but I have seen lots of instances where they are considered sacred, honored weapons used by special characters, inquisitors, nobles, chapter masters, and high level guardsman, both in novels and codexes. I also know they are typically described as being able to be fired regularly or 'overloaded', and that it is the overloaded situation which places you in danger.

As for the manufacturing, I know there are at least a few forge worlds renowned for being some of the few places left that can manufacture them. But I have also seen fluff describing them as a lost technology. In the end, the fluff will contradict, and you can choose what to believe. I suspect both are fairly true, the technology is as good as lost of only a few forgeworlds can produce them, and many plasma weapons out there may be suicidal to use, and the Imperium just doesn't care. But that doesn't mean quality versions don't exist.

Gets Hot doesn't represent the weapon exploding in your face. It represents the weapon overheating and venting the heat in a fashion that can injure the wielder. On a regular dude it simply means he is taken out of action.

Yes, Imperial Plasma weapons can explode, but only when they have been excessivly overheated or deliberatly made to do so.

They are extremely powerful, and because life is cheap the slight chance of injury is quite acceptable. We have weapons today that can injure the wielder if they arn't careful yet they are still used. Just to give an example, don't fire any sort of recoiless weapon/weapon with backwash in an enclosed space(like a building) that doesn't have somewhere for the backwash unless you plan on being profoundly deaf.

Better is a subjective lable, but in a galaxy of eternal war and for a faction with unlimited manpower safety is a non-issue. The Tau and Eldar versions of this weapon should also be noted to be much bigger then the Imperial ones. The Imperium has pistols that can blow a hole in a battle tank. The Eldar and Tau weapons have to be carried on large deployment systems to get used.


The Imperium is far superior technologically then the Tau Empire is, they just don't have a way to distribute that tech down all levels. The Tau have a pathetically tiny empire and relativly few soldiers. hence they are able to equip to a higher standard(but you will notice that Gue'vesa don't get Tau equipment and are stuck with Imperial weapons)

Imperial space ships are Warp Capable, have thicker armor, and mount a greater amount of weapons, most of which are Railguns. really big ones. The Imperium doesn't find it practical to put Railguns on tanks because a Railgun is a much less versitile weapon then an explosive shell. A railgun is either a solid slug that punches through armor or a Flechette AOE weapon. An explosive shell can do both, is simpler to manufacture, only has a marginal loss in effectivness, doesn't require a massive power supply to function, and can do both AT and crowd control with the same round(saving space)


Look at Power Armor compared to a XV8 suit. Both give the same amount of protection(3+ save), but the Power Armor is much more compact then the Battlesuit and it still has advanced targeting, communication, and medical systems for its wearer. The Battlesuit can carry heavy weapons like a man portable weapon, but that is simply by virtue of its size. And Space marines can still carry comperable weapons. Imperial Plasma guns are smaller AND more powerful then Tau and Eldar counterparts.

Grey Templar wrote:Gets Hot doesn't represent the weapon exploding in your face. It represents the weapon overheating and venting the heat in a fashion that can injure the wielder. On a regular dude it simply means he is taken out of action.

Yes, Imperial Plasma weapons can explode, but only when they have been excessivly overheated or deliberatly made to do so.

I guess it could also be the case that the weapon is simply unusable as the cooling has failed.
The image of a marine strolling off to the tech marine with a charred plasma weapon isn't very grimdark though.

OK- did a little research,

MK I plasma weapons were prone to going boom. Earlier versions of the game had them actually explode as a blast template i think, when they overheated.? It's been a while. The 'honour' of being a plasmagunner being not so beneficial was from an earlier IG codex i think. I'll see if i can find my old dex.

Older fluff had it being a lost tech, with plasma weapons being incredibly rare, but apparently not any more.

The current plasmagun in use in the IOM is the MK 3 (forgefury?), apparently, which has better control systems, and shuts the gun down to cool and recharge between shots. The MK I had no such safeguards, and would often kill it's user and everyone standing nearby..

Amazing what you can find with a bit of googling

Thanks for that Ascalam, very informative. It is always interesting to find out where these vastly different interpretations of fluff come from.

'Better is a subjective lable, but in a galaxy of eternal war and for a faction with unlimited manpower safety is a non-issue. The Tau and Eldar versions of this weapon should also be noted to be much bigger then the Imperial ones. The Imperium has pistols that can blow a hole in a battle tank. The Eldar and Tau weapons have to be carried on large deployment systems to get used. '

The Eldar prefer pistol sized Melta and Lance weapons for that side of things. It's likely that they could use mini-plasma weapons, but consider them crude

Blast Pistols ace Plasma pistols for battle-tank killing, and are slightly smaller

I agree with most (if not all) of what grey Templar has said, but I really don't want my thread to become another Tau vs. IOM Slug fest. Restrain yourselves and pick nice fights.

I don't believe that psychic powers should be brought to the table in this discussion. There are some fine lines with some factions such as craftworld eldar but we are trying to focus on tech, not magic.

I wouldn't vote for either the Iom myself or Tau. While Tau tech is advanced and improving, the story has not advanced far enough for them to be competing directly with the top tech faction eldar and crons yet. They can use plasma? Cool! Who can't?

I also wouldn't instantly omit Nids from the discussion ether. People say things like they're bugs, they don't have technology, but that’s wrong. They only exist because of there nutty good bio engineering abilities. I doubt that anyone has skill in that area better than any of the other factions.

'They can use plasma? Cool! Who can't? '

Orks can't, not since RT days of beercan Heavy Plasma Guns. I miss those keg-cannon

If we allow biotechnology to count as technology (I do) the Nids are way up there, if a bit focused on certain designs.

Lol. forgot orks, they specialise in the self destructing plasma gun, hence, no have been found.

If you count the KMB as being a plasma weapon (officially, it's not ) then it's more advanced than the IOM's one, since it's stronger (that was the main argument for the IOM's one being better than the Tau one, right? )

Personally i see it as firing a beam of pure orkiness

I like ork humer. There really should be a way to... improve the KMB, to make it consistantly killy and i don't meen the user.

Mount it on a Kan, or a Grot tank.

T-shirt saves plus Get's Hot otherwise gets ugly.

I would say the Shokk attack gun is pretty high up on the Tech scale..

A ork portable mini-webway generating device that the Orks in their infinite wisdom shoot crazed snotlings at their enemies..through the warp!

Yeah thats scary tech levels, orks plumb the depths of tech but their highs are pretty up there too. Tely-portas, lifta droppas. and such and yes I know the ork gestalt field helps it all work..but it still works.

I would also venture to say that the Tyranids are the top of the bio-engineered tech scale, they solve everything with bio-mass, and dont need a single scrap of other races techs..just their juicy tender bio mass..yum!

DeffDred wrote:

Got a referance for that?

I think you're confusing the Tau rail weapons with the Tau PLASMA weapons.

IoM has clumbsy plasma weapns that explode because they follow an outdated/incomplete STC. The Tau have a controlled/mastered technology of plasma weapons.

The main difference between the two is that the IoM is willing to let their soldiers die using plasma weapons. Tau have a high value on life.

I am not confusing Tau rail weapons with the Tau Plasma Weapons, I am talking about the Tau PLASMA weapons themselves.
Reference?
Read the codex.

Since I am lazy, I'll just rip some admittedly unreliable crap from Lexicanum. But it is something none the less.

The weapon fires a highly energised ball of hydrogen based plasma.

This is an Imperial plasma gun. It houses plasma, super heated hydrogen plasma. Very destructive, to the point that it is hotter then it needs to be to be considered plasma.

It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an accelerated particle breaks down as it leaves the barrel. The particle is accelerated by means of an induction field.

This is the Tau pulse rifle.
The 'particle' referred to here is a tungsten bullet for lack of a better term. It is accelerated to unbelievable speeds, generating a 'plasma pulse'. In other words, the Tau pulse rifle fires a bullet, that begins to break down into plasma, to the target. Eventually, it forms into a small ball of plasma, when it exits the barrel, it begins converting back into a gas losing energy as it flies through the air. In the end you get hit with a little bit of plasma. It will burn you, and probably more than likely kill you, but no where near the destructive level of the Imperial plasma gun.

The Tau cannot house plasma within their weaponry safely. They must generate it with the velocity of a tungsten round.

Tau. no question about it.

Who do necrons have good tech. who many strength ten ap1 weapons do they have?

plops1999 wrote:
Who do necrons have good tech. who many strength ten ap1 weapons do they have?

More than Tau, that's for sure (Death Ray and Tachyon Arrow versus Railgun)!

Golden Sabre wrote:

It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an accelerated particle breaks down as it leaves the barrel. The particle is accelerated by means of an induction field.

This is the Tau pulse rifle.
The 'particle' referred to here is a tungsten bullet for lack of a better term. It is accelerated to unbelievable speeds, generating a 'plasma pulse'. In other words, the Tau pulse rifle fires a bullet, that begins to break down into plasma, to the target. Eventually, it forms into a small ball of plasma, when it exits the barrel, it begins converting back into a gas losing energy as it flies through the air. In the end you get hit with a little bit of plasma. It will burn you, and probably more than likely kill you, but no where near the destructive level of the Imperial plasma gun.

The Tau cannot house plasma within their weaponry safely. They must generate it with the velocity of a tungsten round.

The tau actully have a gun called a plasma rifle, Don't try and make out that we don't know what were talking about by shoving the pulse rifle at us.

Diffrence. Pulse vs. Plasma.

Both Tau guns.

Cryonicleech wrote:
On a slightly different tangent, why are Tau behind the Imperium? The Tau have adapted Rail-Cannons onto smaller tanks and suits, have plasma guns which melt Terminator armor just as well without the possibility of turning the user into molten slag, have developed a stronger and longer reaching standard firearm than the Imperium with the Pulse rifle, and make use of semi-autonomous drones which can carry anything from the smallest, yet still deadly Railgun to generating a shield for a commander.

The Imperium uses lascannons instead of railguns. Why is anyone's guess, but one would assume that accuracy (light vs. physical round), ammo supply and complexity would be a part of it. Why bother overengineering railguns for the Imperial Guard when there's lascannons that are more accurate and less taxing on your supply lines, with almost the same power? The reason the Tau get away with their stuff is because they don't have a galaxy-spanning empire of DOOM.

The plasma part has been covered. Pulse rifles fall under the same principle as lascannons vs. railguns.

Drones generating shields for their commander is irrelevant. The Imperium has Iron Haloes and refractor fields, they fill the same function. Servo-skulls are basically drones but with other functions.

AtoMaki wrote:

plops1999 wrote:
Who do necrons have good tech. who many strength ten ap1 weapons do they have?

More than Tau, that's for sure (Death Ray and Tachyon Arrow versus Railgun)!

Snap!

I would put the Tau and the Imperium at about the same level. The Tau are certainly progressing faster than the Imperium, at least in some areas, and when it comes to the physical sciences they may well overtake them soon. However, the Imperium has an entire field of technology that the Tau simply cannot access, namely psychic and Warp-based technology.

Tau weapons vs. Imperial weapons; Tau weapons are individually superior, but Imperial weapons are simpler, more easily transportable, more rugged, and do better without enormous amounts of support. Is a pulse rifle 'better' than a lasgun? Honestly, I don't know. A pulse rifle certainly put out more power per shot, but it also seems likely to be a more fragile and temperamental piece of technology, which is something that's a disadvantage on the battlefield. A lasgun is basically a solid-state weapon with only one point of failure (the focusing lens, as seen in the Gaunt's Ghost novels) and if it does fail, it can be fixed by spitting on it (Gaunt's Ghosts again). If a pulse rifle breaks, I would think battlefield repairs would be a somewhat more complex procedure than that. We also don't know what the ammunition capacity of a pulse rifle is; based on the fact that it's putting out so much more energy, I would think it'd be much lower than that of a lasgun.

So on the one hand we have more stopping power, and on the other hand we have more reliability and longer functionality, or at least that's how I see it. I think the same comparison can be made between most pieces of Tau vs. Imperial technology. For a given size/weight/use, Tau technology is better at doing the job when given sufficient support, while Imperial technology does the job a little less well but more reliably, and under a wider variety of conditions. There are, of course, exceptions, the aforementioned differences in plasma use philosophy being one of them.

However, if anything, I would give a slight edge to the Imperium, simply because they can explore and advance in psychic technology while the Tau can't. I know people have protested that we can't include 'magic', but I would argue that the imperium puts the Warp to many non-magical uses; if something is understandable, reproducible, and generally follows the same set of known rules at all times, then it isn't magic, it's technology. Void shields are warp-based technology; so are Gellar fields and Warp drives. Imperial teleportation uses the Warp, I believe, and Tau cannot replicate it simply because the Tau can neither perceive nor truly understand the Warp. The Imperium can use psychic technology both as protective equipment (the Invulnerable save that comes with Terminator armor is hinted to be psychic in nature, based off a fragment of the Emperor's armr) and to boost their offensive power (Grey Knight psybolt ammunition), as well as having a somewhat unreliable but still invaluable method of high-speed interstellar communication in the form of Astropathic choirs.


All that said; the Imperium is certainly not the highest-tech race in the setting. Both the Necrons and the Eldar have them beat, although I'm not sure which I would give the highest honors to.

As to Orks; Orks are at all levels of technology from Stone Age to equal with the Necrons, simultaneously. One Mek can barely manage to bash together a few Shootas and Trukks, while another invents massive teleportation arrays capable of moving Gargants instantly from high orbit to a planetary surface in his off time, builds strangely-advanced force fields to protect his machines, and fires Snotlings through the Warp with a piece of technology that no other race is even capable of reproducing, and which would utterly revolutionize both transportation and communication if they could, or if the Orks were interested in either of those things. As such, they don't really fit on any kind of technology scale. If you plot technology level as a line, with the Imperium and Tau in the middle and Eldar and the Necrons on the left, the Orks are five spaces north of the line, about to open fire on it.

The Tau could develop psychic technology though, the Tau themselves might not be able to use it but their allies can. They do develop technology for the races that fight alongside them.

Speaking of Dark Eldar and Eldar, according to Path of the Renegade by Andy Chambers, the Dark Eldar (who simply refer to themselves as ‘Eldar’ in here) look down upon the Craftworld and Exodites as backwards, yokel scum. Obviously the factions would have prejudice, but it interested me to read about the DE’s thoughts about their kin.

Mentlegen324 wrote:The Tau could develop psychic technology though, the Tau themselves might not be able to use it but their allies can. They do develop technology for the races that fight alongside them.

But the Nicassar are totally uninterested in that, aren't they? I had the impression that the Nicassar actively avoid contact with the Warp and examination of how it works. Though I can't quote any sources for that. . .

The issue, really, is that the Tau lack the sense that allows them to perceive the Warp. They might, through a lot of trial and error and with Nicassar cooperation, develop something that used it; but they cannot make real-time observations of how it works within the Warp, and so they cannot really perform controlled experiments or adjust what they're doing to match conditions in real-time. That's a crippling deficiency, when it comes to performing a certain field of science; it would be like a blind man trying to mix dyes to achieve a certain color. Theoretically possible, but in reality nigh-impossibly difficult. The Imperium has a MASSIVE advantage in this field.

I voted for Orks because 1) their technology can't be replicated 2) their technology is not limited (if a Mekboy can dream it, it can be built) and 3) their technology can do anything and everything, see point #2.

Tyranids are very advanced; they are, after all, essentially engineered and designed like pieces of equipment. There is know-how at work.

However, I had to go for Eldar. Just because it seems like they've reached a point wherein nobody needs to actually do anything in their society anymore. (Obv to actually live like that would invite another fall, but it's about as advanced as is imaginable).

Grey Templar wrote:Gets Hot doesn't represent the weapon exploding in your face. It represents the weapon overheating and venting the heat in a fashion that can injure the wielder. On a regular dude it simply means he is taken out of action.

Yes, Imperial Plasma weapons can explode, but only when they have been excessivly overheated or deliberatly made to do so.

They are extremely powerful, and because life is cheap the slight chance of injury is quite acceptable. We have weapons today that can injure the wielder if they arn't careful yet they are still used. Just to give an example, don't fire any sort of recoiless weapon/weapon with backwash in an enclosed space(like a building) that doesn't have somewhere for the backwash unless you plan on being profoundly deaf.

Better is a subjective lable, but in a galaxy of eternal war and for a faction with unlimited manpower safety is a non-issue. The Tau and Eldar versions of this weapon should also be noted to be much bigger then the Imperial ones. The Imperium has pistols that can blow a hole in a battle tank. The Eldar and Tau weapons have to be carried on large deployment systems to get used.


The Imperium is far superior technologically then the Tau Empire is, they just don't have a way to distribute that tech down all levels. The Tau have a pathetically tiny empire and relativly few soldiers. hence they are able to equip to a higher standard(but you will notice that Gue'vesa don't get Tau equipment and are stuck with Imperial weapons)

Imperial space ships are Warp Capable, have thicker armor, and mount a greater amount of weapons, most of which are Railguns. really big ones. The Imperium doesn't find it practical to put Railguns on tanks because a Railgun is a much less versitile weapon then an explosive shell. A railgun is either a solid slug that punches through armor or a Flechette AOE weapon. An explosive shell can do both, is simpler to manufacture, only has a marginal loss in effectivness, doesn't require a massive power supply to function, and can do both AT and crowd control with the same round(saving space)


Look at Power Armor compared to a XV8 suit. Both give the same amount of protection(3+ save), but the Power Armor is much more compact then the Battlesuit and it still has advanced targeting, communication, and medical systems for its wearer. The Battlesuit can carry heavy weapons like a man portable weapon, but that is simply by virtue of its size. And Space marines can still carry comperable weapons. Imperial Plasma guns are smaller AND more powerful then Tau and Eldar counterparts.

Dakka =/= Technologically superior

If I have a calculator and you have a crossbow, and the goal is to shoot someone, the crossbow will be more effective. That does not mean that the crossbow is technologically superior to the calculator.

Tau tech > Imperium tech, even if some Imperium tech has more powerful bullets.

The Imperium has some tech the Tau doesn't have access to, like warp-drives and the gizmos hidden on Mars. But seriously, the entire strenght of the Tau is that their technology is better than the Imperium's. If the Imperium was superior, why would the Tau even exist in this game? It would be pointless. Fluff-wise they would lose every engagement, since the Imperium has more numbers and is muuuuuuuuuch bigger. Take away the Tau's place as having superior tech (in comparison to the Imperium; Eldar and Necrons have even more advanced tech) and you take away the Tau.

Your analogy is off. Yes more powerful doesn't equal technologically superior when your comparing apples and oranges. But it can when comparing apples and apples, e.g. two different types of guns.

Of course there is more too it than just power. You should also consider durability, ease of use, compactness, and safety.

So just comparing plasma weaponry the Tau win on safety, (though one could argue this is a design choice rather than a technological feat), but Imperial plasma beats them out on power, compactness, ease of use, and durability.

And the Tau have nothing comparable to melta pistols, digital weapons, or baleful eyes, all of which display more power, compactness, and durability than Tau infantry weaponry.

I agree dakka =/= technologically superior, but what are you using to measure, because it seems you are just declaring their superiority via fiat.

Grey Templar also discussed power armor technology, where the Imperium seems heads and shoulders above the Tau in tech.

The Imperium have superior tech to the Tau if we consider their full armoury, but, unlike the Tau, they lack the means to deploy it on a widespread scale. The Tau can give every Fire Warrior a pulse rifle, the Imperials struggle to make any significant number of plasma guns available to anyone.

Henners91 wrote:The Imperium have superior tech to the Tau if we consider their full armoury, but, unlike the Tau, they lack the means to deploy it on a widespread scale. The Tau can give every Fire Warrior a pulse rifle, the Imperials struggle to make any significant number of plasma guns available to anyone.

Sure, but its easier to equip a few billion FW with pulse weaponry than equip a quadrohypersuperdupermegabazillion guardsmen with something equally nasty. The Imperium must be cost-effective because its size and scale are big. The Tau can go hardware-happy, because they have only a handful of possible battlefields so the logistics/resource management is way more focused.

TBH I think orks seeing as their tech works by them believing that it works XD

though then again, admech might have and just aren't telling anyone

However the topic is "Who's got more Advanced Tech" not "Who's got a better distribution of Advanced Technology"

The Imperium has everything the Tau has and more besides, they just don't give it out to everyone because it isn't practical.



if everything was perfect, the Imperium would give every Guardsmen a bolter and every Space Marine a Plasma gun as their standard equipment. Guardsmen would wear carapace armor and Space Marines would wear nothing but Artificer Armor and TDA. Terminators would have built in Stormbolters in their Stormshields and have Typhoon Missile racks.

An army like that would blow the Tau, and most other armies, out of the water. There wouldn't even be water left to get blown out of.



The Imperium could mount railguns on Lemun Russ tanks, but it would require them to replace the cheaply manufactured LRBT's engine that runs on just about anything with a compact Fusion reactor found in Dreadnoughts and Landraiders. Not practical.

AtoMaki wrote:

Henners91 wrote:The Imperium have superior tech to the Tau if we consider their full armoury, but, unlike the Tau, they lack the means to deploy it on a widespread scale. The Tau can give every Fire Warrior a pulse rifle, the Imperials struggle to make any significant number of plasma guns available to anyone.

Sure, but its easier to equip a few billion FW with pulse weaponry than equip a quadrohypersuperdupermegabazillion guardsmen with something equally nasty. The Imperium must be cost-effective because its size and scale are big. The Tau can go hardware-happy, because they have only a handful of possible battlefields so the logistics/resource management is way more focused.

I don't think you two are disagreeing with each other.

And as has been said dozens of times, that is what it comes down too. The Imperium HAVE superior tech, but don't/can't distribute it among their troops as well, so on average the Tau solder is equipped with higher tech items than the Guardsman.

yes, but that wasn't the question.

No one would dispute that a Pulse Rifle, Fire Warrior armor, EMP grenades, and Marker lights are more advanced then a Lasgun, combat knife, flak armor, frag and krak grenades, and monoculars.


However, promote that Guardsmen to Plasmagunner and suddenly he has a weapon more advanced and more powerful then a Tau battlesuit can carry. its also a weapon the Tau are too chicken to reverse engineer because 1st degree burns are not for the greater good.

You guys are completely wrong. Even though necrons and tau are really good at tech stuff their technology is no where near the perplexing tech of orks. Seriosly there is not a single reposted insident where necrons or any other race would figured out how to even fire a simple slugga but I heard how orks turned necron vehicles to an insalely powerful bomb that took down an entire planet in a single blast. Imperium's exterminatus looks like a firecracker compared to that.

illuknisaa wrote:You guys are completely wrong. Even though necrons and tau are really good at tech stuff their technology is no where near the perplexing tech of orks. Seriosly there is not a single reposted insident where necrons or any other race would figured out how to even fire a simple slugga but I heard how orks turned necron vehicles to an insalely powerful bomb that took down an entire planet in a single blast. Imperium's exterminatus looks like a firecracker compared to that.

Not sure if trolling...

Firstly, we are disregarding psychic powers as tech.

Secondly, there are numerous instances in the fluff where sluggas have been used by other races. They are a simple and well understood technology. In the RPG's they are just treated as unreliable when not in ork hands. The WAAAGH!!! effect just helps smooth out operation. The ability of ork weapons to fire without a visible means of doing so has been both supported and contradicted by the fluff, so you are free to choose your interpretation, but even if we accept it as true that would be a psychic power, not technology.

In the incident in question the orks did not 'turn a vehicle into a bomb', they were given Necron tech and screwed up, causing the weapon to explode due to misuse...which means that, yes, the Necron's had the capability to create weapons that destructive, since they did, in fact, create the weapon in question.

Which isn't to say that Orks don't have high level technology, their teleporters and shokk guns are great examples of their technological capabilites.

But they don't have anything on the level of the Necrons galactic teleporters, dimension hopping abilities, mind scarabs, nano tech, etc.

Orks.

Seriously, they bend phyics so might it might as well be their prison bitch.

The Waaagh field is a psychic manifistation that orks neither comprehend or question. It just happens, it isn't technology persay. More like a psychic miracle.

Grey Templar wrote:The Waaagh field is a psychic manifistation that orks neither comprehend or question. It just happens, it isn't technology persay. More like a psychic miracle.

Our computers don't work very well in the presence of strong magnetic fields, so really our computers aren't technology amirite?

What does a physical thing have to do with a psychic one?

Technology is "The application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry". It is irrelevant if said scientific knowledge includes psychic power.

Daemon infested vehicles, for example, are a form of technology, making use of a scientific understanding of daemons to trap the daemon in to the vehicle to enhance its performance on the battlefield.

But they don't understand it on a scientific level. They just barter the tortured souls of their enemies for favors from the dark gods and stuff.

DE Codex says DE Tech is superior to CE's.

riplikash wrote:
Secondly, there are numerous instances in the fluff where sluggas have been used by other races. They are a simple and well understood technology. In the RPG's they are just treated as unreliable when not in ork hands. The WAAAGH!!! effect just helps smooth out operation. The ability of ork weapons to fire without a visible means of doing so has been both supported and contradicted by the fluff, so you are free to choose your interpretation, but even if we accept it as true that would be a psychic power, not technology.

Could you quote these pieces of fluff?

And fluff=/=rules if fluff->rules a single ork (any ork will do) would autowin da emprah in any competition.

I guess Orks think that they have the most advanced technology. But it appears that Nids (in evolution, some form of technology) and Tau (in technology) have them.

Melissia wrote:Technology is "The application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry". It is irrelevant if said scientific knowledge includes psychic power.

Daemon infested vehicles, for example, are a form of technology, making use of a scientific understanding of daemons to trap the daemon in to the vehicle to enhance its performance on the battlefield.

While that is a valid definition of technology for us in 40k there is a distinct separation between warp effects (sorcery, magic, whatever), and it is generally accepted, in universe, that technology refer's to things relying on the latter, which is why you can have a mix of 'technology' and 'sorcery', instead of sorcery just being an extension of technology.

What's more you end up with a problem in your definition. If "Technology is the application of scientific knowledge..." then we need to look at what science is, i.e. "The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural universe". So we already have a problem, warp "technology" doesn't rely on "scientific" knowledge, e.g. the structure and behavior of the physical and natural universe.

But even if we extend the definition of 'the physical and natural universe' to include the warp, we have a hard time justifying it as falling under 'science'. Have you ever done logical or mathematical proofs? In science, logic, and mathematics you prove something is true by using one of our existing 'truths' (which we call 'assumptions') to show that if we extend them, then logically, the thing we are trying to prove is true. For example, let's assume 1+1 is 2 (calculus actually has to be used to prove that 1+1 is 2, but that is why we say "let us assume"). We can then conclude that 2+2 is for because (1+1)+(1+1)=4.

All scientific knowledge is made up of these proofs, until we get to a few basic assumptions we can't prove, but just have to assume, because if they aren't true then science cannot actually fully uncover how the universe works, and that is a pointless assumption, so we assume these basic things are true. Different groups have come up with different numbers of basic assumptions, but there are a few that are agreed upon.

* Any phenomena can be understood as an effect of the laws of nature.
* The laws of nature are the same everywhere
* Evidence from the natural world can be used to learn about those causes.
* The laws of nature are understandable by a human

If one of those assumptions are not true, science doesn't work as a method for discovering truth. In the warp, NONE of those assumptions applies. So 'science' cannot be applied to the warp. If effects aren't reproducible, laws aren't consistent, and phenomena cannot be understood through observation, science cannot be applied.

Which again leads us to the conclusion, based on your definition, that warp effects are not 'technology' as we understand the term.

riplikash wrote:

Which again leads us to the conclusion, based on your definition, that warp effects are not 'technology' as we understand the term.

riplikash wrote:

Which isn't to say that Orks don't have high level technology, their teleporters and shokk guns are great examples of their technological capabilites.

Ok, we can scratch those as tech capabilities if you want, though I don't think that is necessary.

Weather we are going to call it 'technology' really is going to depend on if it is reproducible, testable, and understandable based on the laws of the physical universe, which is why things like teleporters, doleman gates, and warp drive still fall under the purview of 'technology' while demon infested suits of armor, psy-weapons, and guns firing with no visible means don't, or at best can be called a mixture of technology and sorcery. Which is also why Warp drives are called tech, but warp navigation is not.

why on earth are nids eveen on this list! they do not even use technoligy so how can it be advance in any way. and to thing some people actually voted nids!

kshaw2000 wrote:why on earth are nids eveen on this list! they do not even use technoligy so how can it be advance in any way. and to thing some people actually voted nids!

To think that someone doesn't understand that bio-engineering is very advanced technology...

Admittedly it is stretching the definition of 'technology'. We don't consider dog or horse breeding a 'technology'. We don't consider frogs changing their sex to be 'technology.

It really isn't the application of knowledge about the physical universe, or advanced too use, which is typically what technology refers to.

Then you have the term 'bio-engineering', which is the application of engineering techniques to biology, e.g. the planning, measuring, and tool use that defines engineering. What they are doing clearly isn't biological engineering, it is biological adaptation. While the results might look the same, the methods are different.

And that is what it comes down to, really. It isn't to say what the tyrinids do is inferior to the technological approach, but it isn't the same either.

riplikash wrote:in 40k there is a distinct separation between warp effects (sorcery, magic, whatever), and it is generally accepted, in universe, that technology refer's to things relying on the latter, which is why you can have a mix of 'technology' and 'sorcery', instead of sorcery just being an extension of technology.

Why?

Technology is an application of science. You can scientifically study the warp. In fact, the Imperium does exactly this through the Ordos Hereticus and Malleus in specific, and the Scholastica Psykana in general.

As the entire rest of my post goes on to explain, scientific study cannot actually be applied to the vast majority of warp effects. Firstly because science is defined as the study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural universe, which already puts the warp on shaky ground.

Secondly because the basic assumptions of science upon which all other conclusions are based don't apply to the warp. If effects aren't universally reproducible, laws aren't consistent, and phenomena cannot be understood through observation, science cannot be applied. You can TRY, but you will fail, as the Imperium does whenever they attempt to. For 'warp tech' to succeed it always has to involve non-scientific approaches like rituals, which further bring it outside the purview of science for not having natural or logical reasons for their necessity.

Science needs to be universally applicable and predictable and not dependent on the observer.

riplikash wrote:As the entire rest of my post goes on to explain, scientific study cannot actually be applied to the vast majority of warp effects. Firstly because science is defined as the study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural universe

The warp is natural, and its effects can be felt on the physical.

riplikash wrote:If effects aren't universally reproducible

They are, psykers have a set of powers and effects that are consistently reproducible.

riplikash wrote:, laws aren't consistent

They are. Sorcerers use them consistently.

riplikash wrote: and phenomena cannot be understood through observation

We couldn't understand quantum physics for a while, and we still don't to a degree. But it's still a science.

Melissia wrote:They are, psykers have a set of powers and effects that are consistently reproducible.

It is one of the main points of psyker powers that they are NOT consistent. For game purposes this is simplified, but the fluff consistently states that warp effects are unpredictable and every use is slightly different. It is semi-predictable, and effects can be produced, but they can't necessarily be produced consistently, and you can never know for sure what the result of any action or warp effect will be. And that doesn't just come down to a lack of understanding of the laws it work, or at least that isn't the theory of the scientists of the Imperium and the Necrons. The laws and 'physics' of the warp change, and not in predictable ways.

It is flat out stated that the warp gods can change the basic laws of the warp on a whim. That is not science. Necron fluff makes a point that all the calculations and observations in the world can not necessarily predict the warp. Due to the warp even cause and effect can fall into disarray. Basic laws of physics like conservation of energy don't apply.

And that is why they consider sorcery and warp effects to be distinct from the science of the Materium.

They are. Sorcerers use them consistently.

They are not, they can, and do change, though usually subtly. It's semi-predictable, but not consistent.

We couldn't understand quantum physics for a while, and we still don't to a degree. But it's still a science.

But we have/had faith, or at least are making an educated guess, that since quantum physics are part of the material universe there are consistent laws governing their behavior and that we can discover the rules through observation. That is not not true of the warp.

Science is a too which can be used to understand our universe based on what we believe to be its nature, it isn't necessarily applicable to all possible universes. And it isn't just a pre-existing thing, like the laws of physics, it is a tool we created to discover truth. Before science the greeks had pure logical induction, and actually looked down on experimentation. We had various forms of mystisicm and religion, but they didn't produce a lot of knowledge about the physical universe, whatever their spiritual , survival, and ethical benefits may be.

So we came up with science, based on the assumption that laws don't change, physical laws govern behavior, and that we can discover those laws through observation. We decided things didn't just happen because some spirit or other said so, but because of the interaction of physical laws.

That just isn't how the warp works. It's laws bend to the whims of it's gods and denzis, and based on the emotional ementations from our universe. Mystisicm rules instead of science because asking, praying, ritualizing, and hoping really are better methods of survival and discovery than the scientific method.

Basically studying the warp is like sociology or economics, there's general rules but because we cannot possibly calculate every single variable we can't predict everything.

Polvilhovoador wrote:DE Codex says DE Tech is superior to CE's.

The Space Marine Codex says that Tigurius is as powerful a psyker as the Emperor. The Ork Codex says that they will soon unite and crush the galaxy. The Grey Knight Codex... ehhww...

You get my point. If the Dark Eldar has more advanced technology than the Craftworld Eldar, then the CE are royally screwed since the Dark Eldar are more numerous. Seriously, people seem very dedicated to giving all advantages to their race. Dark Eldar have more warriors and can revive themselves. The Craftworld Eldar has better tech and psychic powers. I'm not saying it's waaaay superior. They have a small edge, that is all. Things has to balance out, otherwise I really see no point in playing as Craftworld Eldar.

Melissia wrote:Basically studying the warp is like sociology or economics, there's general rules but because we cannot possibly calculate every single variable we can't predict everything.

That is an excellent way to put it, yes. It is a little different because, as you implied, if we could calculate every variable we might be able to predict economics or sociology. 4=2+2=(1+1)+(1+1), A=B=C. In the warp sometimes 1+1=/=2, and so the whole chain of logic falls apart..

There is another good indicator of their differences. It's not so much a proof, more of an indicative trend in their behaviors, a 'by their fruits shall you know them' situation. Science and engineering are progressive, combining proven results with more proven results to produce new effects. And so when science is being used you see growth over time as new rules are discovered and combined with other rules. Slings->Bows->guns-> artillery. An increase in power and understanding over time. (the Imperium is notable for NOT using the scientific method, a big reason why you don't see such a trend in them)

The warp does not work that way. Ones ability to produce effects isn't the result of knowledge applied, it is intrinsic, a result of will and being, and the whims of the warp gods. Humanities most powerful psyker came at the beginning of their history, not the end. Powerful psykers cannot be reliably produced. There is no 'grows over time' as you would expect from a scientific discipline. Again, not a proof, but indicative of the nature of the warp.

And so the division between "science and engineering" and "sorcery and ritual". They really are different, even if they may be comparable in their effects.

Now the thought occurs, perhaps that is a contributing reason for humanities current technological difficulties, and why they no longer rely on the scientific method. Their entire thought structure and approach to the universe revolved around science, much as ours does. Their very mind evolved in a physical environment. And suddenly they start emerging as a powerful psychic race. Tried and true rules (circuits transmit energy and don't suddenly become possessed by demons, 1+1=2 not 1+1=ITS CRAWLING IN MY SKIN!) have become erratic. As I mentioned earlier, the foundation of the scientific method is those 3-5 basic assumptions, and they work fine when you are firmly a being of the physical universe like the Necrons and the Tau.

But humanity suddenly wasn't, they were, at least partially, creatures of the warp. The foundation of their civilization and technology suddenly became unstable and untrustworthy, no wonder they look on it with suspicion. The Eldar and Orks, in contrast, have always been creatures of both worlds, and merge them seamlessly. Humanity still hasn't figured out how to cope. In a way they have been thrown back to the stone age, or even the amphibian age, having to learn how to deal with the universe in a way totally alien. But where amphibians had millions of years to figure out the world of land, humanity was just dumped into the world of the warp.

Just an interesting though.

How dose all that relate with warp based technology?

nomotog wrote:How dose all that relate with warp based technology?

Warp based 'technology' is typically described as being a mixture of sorcery and technology, and are used to combine the effects of the warp and physical universe. Things like geller fields, psy-bullets and the like use technology as a foundation for their effects, but augment it with sorcery at the point where predictable, physical laws fail.

Which is why the Necrons and Tau are unable to produce it. Without the magical rituals, blood sacrifices, and application of sheer willpower necessary to bend the warp to do what they want it to do, they cannot reproduce the effects. The effects are at least partially dependent on who is producing them, not just the physical laws being applied.

Because a squishy 'oomie can't understand something it doesn't become sorcery. Ork technology is simply so advanced that other races can't comprehend even the most simple ork tech.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_ones#.TxnqEvkhCII

Hmm I just wonder how does gauss weaponary work? I'm pretty sure you got some nice scientific explanation for that riplikash.

illuknisaa wrote:Because a squishy 'oomie can't understand something it doesn't become sorcery. Ork technology is simply so advanced that other races can't comprehend even the most simple ork tech.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_ones#.TxnqEvkhCII

Hmm I just wonder how does gauss weaponary work? I'm pretty sure you got some nice scientific explanation for that riplikash.

In the last codex, it was stated that Gauss Tech was "Theoretically impossible" by someone in the Imperium.

riplikash wrote:

Melissia wrote:Basically studying the warp is like sociology or economics, there's general rules but because we cannot possibly calculate every single variable we can't predict everything.

That is an excellent way to put it, yes. It is a little different because, as you implied, if we could calculate every variable we might be able to predict economics or sociology. 4=2+2=(1+1)+(1+1), A=B=C. In the warp sometimes 1+1=/=2, and so the whole chain of logic falls apart..

No it doesn't, it just means we have yet to understand why, in the warp, sometimes 1+1 != 2.

You haven't studied Quantum Theory much, have you?

If we can have an entire science around Quantum Theory, we can have one around the warp.

And let's not even get in to String Theory.

Melissia wrote:
You haven't studied Quantum Theory much, have you?

Actually I have studied quantum theory, I did my senior thesis on quantum encryption for my CS degree. And one of the most interesting things about quantum theory is we don't know if the scientific method will ever be able to crack it, though we hope it will. When observation alters the results of the test it puts the scientific method, which relies first and foremost on observation, on very shaky ground.

If we can have an entire science around Quantum Theory, we can have one around the warp.

There is a huge flaw in that logic. Firstly, we haven't successfully cracked quantum physics yet, we just have some interesting results and even more interesting hypothesis about how we got them. Secondly, Quantum physics is still part our our universe, so it is at least a good bet that it acts in a similar manner to the rest of our universe and can therefore be understood through observation.

The warp is a different reality and there is no reason it needs to conform to the assumptions of our reality. Other universes don't have to be consistent in their laws the way ours seems to be. The warp is defined by chaos, by an absence of absolute rules. Considering that, and how often we are told the warp is incalculable and changing, and that all the greatest scientific minds of the 40k universe consider it incalculable, there is much more evidence supporting the warp being an incalculable universe than a calculable one. But people get too wrapped up in the assumptions our universe has supporting and don't understand they aren't necessarily be pan-universal assumptions.

And let's not even get in to String Theory.

As for string theory, it is...well not garbage, but unsubstantiated fluff, much closer to ancient Greek style mental theorizing than true science, an inductive leap rather than a deductive theory. And it should really be called string hypothesis and no experiments or counter hypothesis have been tested against it. It is fun to think about but it isn't science. It doesn't get discussed in serious scientific journals for a reason.

riplikash wrote:Actually I have studied quantum theory, I did my senior thesis on quantum encryption for my CS degree.

Ah, how believable a claim...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

riplikash wrote:Firstly, we haven't successfully cracked quantum physics yet

Just like our understanding of the warp.

Melissia wrote:

riplikash wrote:Actually I have studied quantum theory, I did my senior thesis on quantum encryption for my CS degree.

Ah, how believable a claim...

Now your are just being petty. I'm a software engineer, my profile has said so for years, and of course I have a CS degree. To graduate you have to do a senior thesis and a senior project, each has to be on a subject not covered buy the curriculum. I chose quantum encryption and hive intelligence respectively. That's the kind of thing you do in college. Not everyone on the internet is a teenager. Anyways, I'm the one who has evidenced knowledge of the subject and it's implications, while you just threw out buzz words like 'quantum' and 'string theory' without actually explaining what they have to do with anything..

riplikash wrote:Firstly, we haven't successfully cracked quantum physics yet

Just like our understanding of the warp.

Not understanding two different things does not make them equivalent in complexity or difficulty. I went over it in my previous posts, which I'm beginning to suspect you don't read in their entirety. Quantum mechanics is a part of our own universe we don't understand, and't aren't sure if science can unlock. I don't see how that fact implies in any way that the scientific method is applicable to the warp.

riplikash wrote:
Not understanding two different things does not make them equivalent in complexity or difficulty. I went over it in my previous posts, which I'm beginning to suspect you don't read in their entirety. Quantum mechanics is a part of our own universe we don't understand, and't aren't sure if science can unlock. I don't see how that fact implies in any way that the scientific method is applicable to the warp.

But I think there are strong implications that some laws of physics, at least, DO apply to the Warp; or if the ones we're familiar with don't, there are others which do, and the Imperium knows of and and can interact with at least some of them. There are numerous pieces of Warp-related technology that are quite well understood and just as reliable as any technology ever is; psychic hoods and Gellar fields are two that spring immediately to mind. Everything is, of course, somewhat confused by the fact that the Imperium at large isn't very scientific about ANY technology, but I think they deal just as rationally with Warp-related technology as they do with, say, armored vehicles.

illuknisaa wrote:Because a squishy 'oomie can't understand something it doesn't become sorcery. Ork technology is simply so advanced that other races can't comprehend even the most simple ork tech.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Old_ones#.TxnqEvkhCII

Hmm I just wonder how does gauss weaponary work? I'm pretty sure you got some nice scientific explanation for that riplikash.

No one can figure out how ork tech works because it doesn't work, It is just piles of random stuff formed to resemble whatever its supposed to be which is then animated in the appropriate fashion by ork belief channeled through the waagh field. So if an ork doesn't have it, then its no better than a gun shaped stick as I do believe in the ork codex it says ork weapons only works in ork hands.

And if you really want to know how gauss weaponry works here http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gauss_weapon#.TxpV_YGVP0E

I have a strange thought. If in the warp, there's no gravity, why do most daemons have legs?

ot: I realllllly cant see any reason to support ork tech. Cool it works ok, but its basicly held together by the minds of thousands assuming it works. Thats not good tech. Necrons have weapons that I would trust, If i wasn't scared to death of them

Ledabot wrote:I have a strange thought. If in the warp, there's no gravity, why do most daemons have legs?

Because they need them to swarm into reality, where there is gravity.

It's because the laws of physics are different in the warp, but they are not wholly without their own internal logic.

Ledabot wrote:ork tech [is] basicly held together by the minds of thousands assuming it works.

No it's not. Ork tech works in the hands of non-orks with no orks present.

All the ork presence does is make it work more reliably.

Someone is of course going to bring up that magos genetor quote, but I reiterate-- for one, he's a magos genetor. He is one who studies genetics, not engineering. For two, he's AdMech. The official position of the AdMech is essentially that non-humanmade technology doesn't actually work. A more unreliable narrator could hardly be asked for.

In contrast, in the tabletop game (kroot mercenaries being the canon example), in black library (Several instances, including the Cain book 4), and in the FFG roleplaying series (most notably rogue trader), Ork tech works in the hands of non-orks. Just not as efficiently as it does in the hands of Orks.

to support Melissia's above point..

In Gorka Morka, diggas ( feral humans) used ork weapons and basic tech with no problems.

the Armageddon Ork fighters codex entry ( way back in 3rd ed ) the IG ork fighters used Ork shootas, sluggas and big shootas ( since they were forced to use the enemies weapons due to being cut off from resupply.)
and the only change was the IG went from a BS 3 to a BS 2 when using orky weapons.

A little add-on to 'Nid technology:

Tyranids have no mechanical technology, and instead harness and advanced form of biotechnology to create organic equivalents of the tools, fuels, ammunition and weaponry used by other races. Indeed, it may be argued that the most sophisticated of technologies and manufacturing techniques utilised by the other races of the galaxy pale in comparsion to the organisms created by the Tyranids.

Quoted from the Tyranid codex (pg 7), because i think the bugs are grossly underpresented in this topic ... Because you know, these guys developed a nigh-total immunity against the super-duper high-tech Tau pulse and ion weaponry.

Not exactly immunity, but resistance enough that their heavy carapace counts as armor against it.

Melissia wrote:Not exactly immunity, but resistance enough that their heavy carapace counts as armor against it.

It was nigh-immunity. The Tau had to abandon their pulse/ion weaponry, so i guess it wasn't just some random armor.

AtoMaki wrote:

Melissia wrote:Not exactly immunity, but resistance enough that their heavy carapace counts as armor against it.

It was nigh-immunity. The Tau had to abandon their pulse/ion weaponry, so i guess it wasn't just some random armor.

You know what bugs me about that. They abandoned there pulse weapons for kroot rifles that are also pulse weapons.

nomotog wrote:

AtoMaki wrote:

Melissia wrote:Not exactly immunity, but resistance enough that their heavy carapace counts as armor against it.

It was nigh-immunity. The Tau had to abandon their pulse/ion weaponry, so i guess it wasn't just some random armor.

You know what bugs me about that. They abandoned there pulse weapons for kroot rifles that are also pulse weapons.

Kroot rifles are simple slug-throwers enhanced with pulse technology. The Tau codex is pretty clear about this (pg 17 and 29).

It's not clear about anything.

The Kroot fight with a rifle, which, while relatively primitive, is capable of delivering a charged round more powerful than a standard issue lasgun.

Kroot Rifle
A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round.

Pulse Rifle
The pulse rifle uses an induction field to propel a particle, which reacts by breaking down to create a plasma pulse as it leaves the barrel.

And i think charged pulse round =/= plasma pulse.

AtoMaki wrote:

The Kroot fight with a rifle, which, while relatively primitive, is capable of delivering a charged round more powerful than a standard issue lasgun.

Kroot Rifle
A primitive slug-thrower relying on chemical propellant and the transfer of kinetic energy. The Tau have adapted the weapon to fire a charged pulse round.

Pulse Rifle
The pulse rifle uses an induction field to propel a particle, which reacts by breaking down to create a plasma pulse as it leaves the barrel.

And i think charged pulse round =/= plasma pulse.

So basicly, the fluff writer failed at life. Tau dumped there pulse rifles for worce pulse rifles, and they worked. lolwhat?

Riplikash: Interesting posts there chief! Was a time that this would have been exactly my kind of debate (to be part of rather than just read) but not anymore, sadly. Could I just ask you to clarify something? I know that different disciplines use the same words differently but when you mentioned the pre-scientific-method Classical Greeks using induction, did you mean deduction?

If you didn't mean deduction, would you mind giving a quick summary of what you (your discipline) means by those two terms? From my reading I would take the Platonic/Aristotelian idea that 'truth' derived by logical syllogisms and the like (leading to a higher level 'Truth' than that derived from mere, 'gross', observation/experimentation) would be deductive; where inductive would involve observation/repetition/experimentation (the basis of the scientific-method)... with attendant philosophical problems.

* * *

40k tech you say? I've never found that any faction matches its fluff on the 40k TT: Battlefleet Gothic, however, gets much nearer (despite dodgy points costs here and there). Someone asked near the beginning of the thread what made Eldar tech so special? On the 40k TT not much; on the BFG TT (if you're a good player and there's a decent amount of spacey terrain) then you outmanoeuvre and kill everything with your superior tech, every time - that's how Eldar do things... ummm, unless it's Necrons (who are as full-on WTF!? killy in BFG as they are in their [old] fluff).

gabrielhorus wrote:The order is as follows:

Necrons, Eldar/Tau, Imperium/Chaos, Orks, Tyranids.

Necrons are best because they're Necrons. (tech scale 'Doomsday')
Eldar tech has plateaued at 'Awesome' and Tau are Shooting themselves out of a cannon at 'Gunpowder' and sailing right on past 'Awesome' to 'Run, Just Run'. At the moment they are About at 'Awesome'. Imperium and Chaos are at 'Awesome, but Impractical'. Orks are at '%^%$' and Tyranids don't know what tech is.

For Reference, the scale is:

Run, Just Run > Doomsday > Awesome > Awesome, but Impractical > Modern > Gunpowder > ^&%$&^ > Bugs.

This here is the most accurate scale of 40k tech levels that I've seen.
Necrons - Able to manipulate time. And their tech is at a level beyond the understanding of all other races.
Eldar - Well they stole several suns which presently burn above Commorragh, but that was back in their heyday. Now they're still amazing, but not getting any better.
Tau - With the rate at which they progress, they'll soon pass Eldar and eventually even Necrons. Presently they're close to the imperium, only without all the floppy cables coming out of everything and plugging into everything else. Tau are wireless, more efficient and quickly getting better.
Imperium - Used to be much more amazing 10,000 years ago, but have degraded to regarding technology superstitiously like its magic, and improving it is heresy... So they're kinda stuck.
Orks - ...Make a valiant effort.
Tyranids - N/A

You could say that the Imperium is the PC of 40k while Tau are like Apple. One is kinda bulky and theres wires/cables everywhere while the other is sleek and fancy, however they are pretty much equal when it comes to efficiency.

Thatguy91 wrote:You could say that the Imperium is the PC of 40k while Tau are like Apple. One is kinda bulky and theres wires/cables everywhere while the other is sleek and fancy, however they are pretty much equal when it comes to efficiency.

Good analogy. And they each have things that are a little better than the other.

I don't know why the poster said lol next to Orks. Orks are able to build a gun that(with enough shots) could kill a marine, out of random scrap and squig oil. They can make their tech instinctively. So if they put their minds to it they could have the best (if they already don't) tech in the galaxy.
~Also tyranids have pretty good tech making mucus cannons and what-not through natural mutation.

kitterex wrote:I don't know why the poster said lol next to Orks. Orks are able to build a gun that(with enough shots) could kill a marine, out of random scrap and squig oil. They can make their tech instinctively. So if they put their minds to it they could have the best (if they already don't) tech in the galaxy.

There's a difference between 'technology' and, for all intents and purposes, 'magic', and is better described as 'nonsense'.

Lynata wrote:Though I'd still find it somewhat hard to believe that there are labcoat 'crons.

As of the 5e codex, there are.

They are called Necron Crypteks, Necron scientists whose mastery of the materium is so advanced that they are basically psykers who don't use the Warp, able to bend the and alter the natural laws of reality by basically inputting cheat codes into spacetime.

And yeah, first place goes pretty easily to Necrons, after that probably Eldar/Dark Eldar (The former might be a little lesser than the latter due to relying on the Warp for it, arguably), after that the Imperium, then Tau.

Ork technology is to the side a bit, and Tyranids might not even technically have "technology".

infinite_array wrote:

kitterex wrote:I don't know why the poster said lol next to Orks. Orks are able to build a gun that(with enough shots) could kill a marine, out of random scrap and squig oil. They can make their tech instinctively. So if they put their minds to it they could have the best (if they already don't) tech in the galaxy.

There's a difference between 'technology' and, for all intents and purposes, 'magic', and is better described as 'nonsense'.

Pritty much why. I cant see any chance that they could produce effective and in great numbers a highly advanced peice of tech.

Well, the Crypteks arn't exactly inventing new stuff. They've long since stopped conducting proper research. Now they are just looking for proper host forms for the Necron race. No real RnD going on.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, the Crypteks arn't exactly inventing new stuff. They've long since stopped conducting proper research. Now they are just looking for proper host forms for the Necron race. No real RnD going on.

That one Cryptek special character regularly performs research.

And really... They already make spacetime their bitch, and managed to separate and imprison a species of star gods, for them to get any more advanced would break the setting.

Ok, bad choice of wording there. He isn't inventing anything new, just investigating stuff.

I think the idea of technology varies to a high degree. Necrons are the most advanced in terms of scientific technology. What i mean by that is technology that can exist without the use or existence of psychic energy or other such things. Each race seems to often go in different directions in how it makes and uses it's technology.

Orks are considered crude but that ignores certain massive and clear advantages of Ork technology. Ork-tech is easily made (often from scrap) and can produce similar and or equal results to machines made by other races with far greater difficulty. Tau-tech is advanced but the Tau also have far less of a supply problem compared to others. The Imperium is much more adavanced than the Tau but has not the time or motivation to delve into it's most advanced technology.

When considering Tyranids, they don't have technology by any normal definition. A Tyranid carrying a gun may of been evolved to carry that gun as the gun will be a Tyranid as well, unlike other armies where guns are made for people to use and people aren't bred to carry them. Tyranid genetic engineering makes the genetic engineering of the Space Marines look crude and shoddy. Also Tyranids are the only race to of travelled from one galaxy to another, this is something the rest of the other major races would consider impossible or so difficult as to be unworkable. On the other hand Tyranids have not and probably never will invent the wheel. The wheel being one of the simplest pieces of technology to make or invent.

Depending on if you count warp-based tech actual technology or just sorcery, either Necrons or Chaos.

Orks easily, say all you want for their physcic maguffin ability of randomly making things work, but in practice when they loot a peice of necron kit there has to be an underlying engineering theory to be able to modify it. I mean look at the shok attack gun, sure the techs unreliable but have you seen some of the AdMechs more impressive backfires?

Durza wrote:Depending on if you count warp-based tech actual technology or just sorcery, either Necrons or Chaos.

Well, whoever tinkered with the Tau, putting them through their 100.000 years of species and civilatory evolution in 1/100 of the time, also created a perfectly stable, unmovable, impenetrable (even for Chaos and Eldar) Warp Storm that shielded Tau from the rest of the Galaxy for them to advance to their current state in fast-forward. Not even the Chaos Gods themselves have evidenced that sort of control over the warp. It's a feat that rivals the Old Ones.

So, if you cound warp-based tech as actual technology, the winner would clearly be Tau (or, more precisely, their mysterious creators).

For all practical purposes, "technology" in 40k is "magic nonsense".

Consider:
A ramshakle ork flier that has no right getting off the ground in the first place, let alone being an effective war machine. Why does it defy physics so? Ork gestalt psychic power making it work because they believe/know it works. Perhaps it is even painted red.


Compare:
A Tau skyray. It "looks" aerodynamic and sleek, but merely looking the part isn't going to get you off the ground (unless you are the above Ork, I suppose). It has no more right to be hovering about than the Ork flier has to be in the air. Why does it defy physics so? Anti-gravity devices, clearly! Because those totally aren't an impossibility. (Seriously, there was a special on TV about Sci-fi tech, and a pair of physicists ripped these things apart, while clips from the Clone Wars movie played.) It isn't any less silly than the Ork gestalt.


Compare:
A Necron anything. They defy physics using technology so advanced that it, even in the fluff, blurs the line between tech and magic. Because apart from whatever distictions you want to draw in the fluff, there IS no line in 40k. When they float, it is because of glowy green magic. Or glowy green super science.


This isn't to decry any one answer to the question asked, just to point out that saying what is "tech" and what is not in our beloved 40k universe is just an arbitrary line drawn by the person making the statement.

My personal line is: Technology is anything that is created by a race as a tool to accomplish some end. Whichever race does this best by their own standards has the best technology, because their tool is doing what is was created to do.

By that standard, I could vote for Necrons, who are arguably tools themselves, Tau, who do not artificially confine their tech, Orks, who create what they want to create, and it does what they want (even when it backfires really. When your racial goal is "more killy" and finding a fight, it is a little easier to get exactly what you're after), or even Tyranids, if you want to consider their biological constructions that do what they are supposed to really well "technology".

Ultimately, I rather arbitrarily voted for Orks. Because their tech is the most fun to look at for me.

I'd vote Chaos Daemons. Humanities darkest thoughts and most depraved desires given physcial form? It's like the Internet coming alive and jumping out to eat you.

The way i see it it scales like so

Necrons: King ol the Hill. Not only are they the oldest technological race still around, but they are also the one with the most technical know how. Most other races can't even began to understand how some of their tech works.

Eldar: They are also an ancient and technological race, but are starting to wan and have lost some of that knowledge. However even with what was lost only one race is above them in tech know how.

Tau: Gets a solid third place, they have the drive Man did during the darkage, but are progressing maybe even a bit faster. They have not reached the power of Man during the dark age, but understand more then the IoM currently does. They will surpass the IoM given time, maybe as little as a thousand years.

Imperium of Man: They are currently in the forth spot, they have some great tech, but mostly do not really understand it and can not really recreate the high end stuff., Tech wise they are about even to the Tau, however I can not put them on the same ground based purely upon the fact they are playing with things they really no longer comprehend. They used to be number three, but those days are long gone.

Orks: Are about even with the IoM honestly, they get the fifth spot only because they understand even less then the IoM. . They work off gentic knowledge and basically psychic power. The tech itself works about as good as the stuff the IoM fields, if jury rigged, over complex and pron to do odd things.

Tyranids: Do not use what we would think of as tech, they evolve things to suit them. Guns they use because they are effective, so they took tech someone else used and replicated it. They may not understand it on any real level, but they can replicate it as it used evolutionary systems they can replicate, Energy.

DrimGark wrote:For all practical purposes, "technology" in 40k is "magic nonsense".

Consider:
A ramshakle ork flier that has no right getting off the ground in the first place, let alone being an effective war machine. Why does it defy physics so? Ork gestalt psychic power making it work because they believe/know it works. Perhaps it is even painted red.


Compare:
A Tau skyray. It "looks" aerodynamic and sleek, but merely looking the part isn't going to get you off the ground (unless you are the above Ork, I suppose). It has no more right to be hovering about than the Ork flier has to be in the air. Why does it defy physics so? Anti-gravity devices, clearly! Because those totally aren't an impossibility. (Seriously, there was a special on TV about Sci-fi tech, and a pair of physicists ripped these things apart, while clips from the Clone Wars movie played.) It isn't any less silly than the Ork gestalt.
.

Anti-gravity is only impossable with our current understanding of the natural universe. We still don't even know what gravity is exactly or how it works. It is entirely possable that Gravity is actually caused by some sub-atomic particle that can be manipulated with an EM field.

And the Tau and Eldar anti-grav technology may not be anti-gravity at all. Maybe they have a pressure generator that creates a cushion of air underneath their vehicles, similer to a hover craft, that allows them to glide along with minimal effort.

The Imperium doesn't have anti-grav technology, but rather has plates that keep the speeder up by repelling the planets magnetic field. and as such speeders don't work on planets without magnetic fields.

IMO I believe chaos the legions have heresy or older tech and older is better in 40k plus the heretechs build new weapons mix demon and warp tech into there devises.

Grey Templar wrote:

DrimGark wrote:For all practical purposes, "technology" in 40k is "magic nonsense".

Consider:
A ramshakle ork flier that has no right getting off the ground in the first place, let alone being an effective war machine. Why does it defy physics so? Ork gestalt psychic power making it work because they believe/know it works. Perhaps it is even painted red.


Compare:
A Tau skyray. It "looks" aerodynamic and sleek, but merely looking the part isn't going to get you off the ground (unless you are the above Ork, I suppose). It has no more right to be hovering about than the Ork flier has to be in the air. Why does it defy physics so? Anti-gravity devices, clearly! Because those totally aren't an impossibility. (Seriously, there was a special on TV about Sci-fi tech, and a pair of physicists ripped these things apart, while clips from the Clone Wars movie played.) It isn't any less silly than the Ork gestalt.
.

Anti-gravity is only impossable with our current understanding of the natural universe. We still don't even know what gravity is exactly or how it works. It is entirely possable that Gravity is actually caused by some sub-atomic particle that can be manipulated with an EM field.

And the Tau and Eldar anti-grav technology may not be anti-gravity at all. Maybe they have a pressure generator that creates a cushion of air underneath their vehicles, similer to a hover craft, that allows them to glide along with minimal effort.

The Imperium doesn't have anti-grav technology, but rather has plates that keep the speeder up by repelling the planets magnetic field. and as such speeders don't work on planets without magnetic fields.

Are you sure about speeders? Where did you read that?

Grey Templar wrote:Well, the Crypteks arn't exactly inventing new stuff.

What new stuff do they have left to invent?

Not all advanced technology is mechanical... It amused me reading the Poll to find Necrons at the top of it all. Considering they (to my knowledge) no longer manufacture new technology, and the vast majority of theirs is millennia old.

I voted Tyranid. Due largely that they are the pinnacle of evolution. They adapt perfectly to any given threat/situation. Every threat they have met, they have found a way to evolved to beat it. The hive mind has the perfect weapon, The Tyranid genus ^_^


well thats my two cents

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Not all advanced technology is mechanical... It amused me reading the Poll to find Necrons at the top of it all. Considering they (to my knowledge) no longer manufacture new technology, and the vast majority of theirs is millennia old.

I voted Tyranid. Due largely that they are the pinnacle of evolution. They adapt perfectly to any given threat/situation. Every threat they have met, they have found a way to evolved to beat it. The hive mind has the perfect weapon, The Tyranid genus ^_^


well thats my two cents

List of races with planet-sized super starships capable of destroying fleets of other ships:

Necrons.

List of races with a super weapon that can destroy any star in the galaxy with the press of a button:

Necrons

List of races with a handheld weapon they can build that can punch a hole into the core of a mountain:

Necrons

List of races who have cut to pieces and then compressed a race of star gods into Necrodermis bodies:

Necrons

The list goes on and on my friend.

This is a non-argument honestly. The fluff is consistent and blunt on this: The Necrons are the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy, bar none.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Not all advanced technology is mechanical... It amused me reading the Poll to find Necrons at the top of it all. Considering they (to my knowledge) no longer manufacture new technology, and the vast majority of theirs is millennia old.

I voted Tyranid. Due largely that they are the pinnacle of evolution. They adapt perfectly to any given threat/situation. Every threat they have met, they have found a way to evolved to beat it. The hive mind has the perfect weapon, The Tyranid genus ^_^


well thats my two cents

Oh I'll give you that they are biologically advanced, But like the Orks and the IoM, almost none of that race understands a bit of it. They are at best semi-A.I like floating factories. They go off instinct and pre programming more then true understanding. So yes while the bio-technical side is damned advanced, it is no better then orks or IoM and understands it even less as a whole.

Void__Dragon wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Not all advanced technology is mechanical... It amused me reading the Poll to find Necrons at the top of it all. Considering they (to my knowledge) no longer manufacture new technology, and the vast majority of theirs is millennia old.

I voted Tyranid. Due largely that they are the pinnacle of evolution. They adapt perfectly to any given threat/situation. Every threat they have met, they have found a way to evolved to beat it. The hive mind has the perfect weapon, The Tyranid genus ^_^


well thats my two cents

List of races with planet-sized super starships capable of destroying fleets of other ships:

Necrons.

List of races with a super weapon that can destroy any star in the galaxy with the press of a button:

Necrons

List of races with a handheld weapon they can build that can punch a hole into the core of a mountain:

Necrons

List of races who have cut to pieces and then compressed a race of star gods into Necrodermis bodies:

Necrons

The list goes on and on my friend.

This is a non-argument honestly. The fluff is consistent and blunt on this: The Necrons are the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy, bar none.

The fluff is also balls, the very idea that the Necrontyre have risen up against the C'tan is just plain stupid... but thats another discussion.


List of Races to wipe out countless Galaxies:

Tyranids.

List of Races to wipe out countless Races:

Tyranids.

List of Races to consistently win against every race they have encountered:

Tyranids.

Joking aside, this poll and thread was created as a way of people expressing opinion, not just to brow beat and smack people upside the head stating fluff. Personally I chose the Tyranids. because after they have devoured every last remnant of biomass in this galaxy, they will move on and do the same again, and again, and again, and again.... etc. While the Necrons sit in/on their tomb-worlds scratching their metallic butts

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:Not all advanced technology is mechanical... It amused me reading the Poll to find Necrons at the top of it all. Considering they (to my knowledge) no longer manufacture new technology, and the vast majority of theirs is millennia old.

I voted Tyranid. Due largely that they are the pinnacle of evolution. They adapt perfectly to any given threat/situation. Every threat they have met, they have found a way to evolved to beat it. The hive mind has the perfect weapon, The Tyranid genus ^_^


well thats my two cents

List of races with planet-sized super starships capable of destroying fleets of other ships:

Necrons.

List of races with a super weapon that can destroy any star in the galaxy with the press of a button:

Necrons

List of races with a handheld weapon they can build that can punch a hole into the core of a mountain:

Necrons

List of races who have cut to pieces and then compressed a race of star gods into Necrodermis bodies:

Necrons

The list goes on and on my friend.

This is a non-argument honestly. The fluff is consistent and blunt on this: The Necrons are the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy, bar none.

The fluff is also balls, the very idea that the Necrontyre have risen up against the C'tan is just plain stupid... but thats another discussion.


List of Races to wipe out countless Galaxies:

Tyranids.

List of Races to wipe out countless Races:

Tyranids.

List of Races to consistently win against every race they have encountered:

Tyranids.

Joking aside, this poll and thread was created as a way of people expressing opinion, not just to brow beat and smack people upside the head stating fluff. Personally I chose the Tyranids. because after they have devoured every last remnant of biomass in this galaxy, they will move on and do the same again, and again, and again, and again.... etc. While the Necrons sit in/on their tomb-worlds scratching their metallic butts

This thread isn't about the most dangerous, but about the most technologically advanced. Nids are not techy.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:The fluff is also balls, the very idea that the Necrontyre have risen up against the C'tan is just plain stupid... but thats another discussion.

I agree, but irrelevant.

List of Races to wipe out countless Galaxies:

Tyranids.

Irrelevant to technology, and what, you can't count to twelve?

Dozen is the number given

List of Races to wipe out countless Races:

Tyranids.

Irrelevant.

List of Races to consistently win against every race they have encountered:

Tyranids.

The Tyranids have a rather bad track record against the Necrons actually, especially in fleet combat.

Joking aside, this poll and thread was created as a way of people expressing opinion, not just to brow beat and smack people upside the head stating fluff. Personally I chose the Tyranids. because after they have devoured every last remnant of biomass in this galaxy, they will move on and do the same again, and again, and again, and again.... etc. While the Necrons sit in/on their tomb-worlds scratching their metallic butts

But the Tyranids are going to be wiped out by the other races. Probably the Orks or Necrons, actually.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:This thread isn't about the most dangerous, but about the most technologically advanced. Nids are not techy.

What isn't techy about naturally evolved biological weaponary?

All you have to do to wipe out the Tyranids is let enough Orks know where the fight is gonna be. Orks be damn right unbeatable if they all joined up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:This thread isn't about the most dangerous, but about the most technologically advanced. Nids are not techy.

What isn't techy about naturally evolved biological weaponary?

Again, does the Tyranids as a whole understand it? Probably not. They are damned good at one single type of tech, and they as a whole really do not understand it. So yeah they are bottom ol the pile.

Ledabot wrote:Restrain yourselves and pick nice fights.

I don't believe that psychic powers should be brought to the table in this discussion. There are some fine lines with some factions such as craftworld eldar but we are trying to focus on tech, not magic.

I wouldn't vote for either the Iom myself or Tau. While Tau tech is advanced and improving, the story has not advanced far enough for them to be competing directly with the top tech faction eldar and crons yet. They can use plasma? Cool! Who can't?

I also wouldn't instantly omit Nids from the discussion ether. People say things like they're bugs, they don't have technology, but that’s wrong. They only exist because of there nutty good bio engineering abilities. I doubt that anyone has skill in that area better than any of the other factions.

Basicly my more refined outlines for the discussion, you can find the post around pg 3. Since the thread revived, I'll move it foward a bit.

Void__Dragon wrote:Irrelevant to technology, and what, you can't count to twelve?

Dozen is the number given

the quote doesnt give an exact number, this was argued the other day on a different thread.

Void__Dragon wrote:But the Tyranids are going to be wiped out by the other races. Probably the Orks or Necrons, actually.

lol that amused me, for someone who quotes canon at me, you like to make laugh a lot with your funny funny theorys

I feel that it is probably Eldar, because of the Webway. This may be magic and not technology, but the two seem mostly indistinguishable in 40k.

Ledabot wrote:

Ledabot wrote:Restrain yourselves and pick nice fights.

I don't believe that psychic powers should be brought to the table in this discussion. There are some fine lines with some factions such as craftworld eldar but we are trying to focus on tech, not magic.

I wouldn't vote for either the Iom myself or Tau. While Tau tech is advanced and improving, the story has not advanced far enough for them to be competing directly with the top tech faction eldar and crons yet. They can use plasma? Cool! Who can't?

I also wouldn't instantly omit Nids from the discussion ether. People say things like they're bugs, they don't have technology, but that’s wrong. They only exist because of there nutty good bio engineering abilities. I doubt that anyone has skill in that area better than any of the other factions.

Basicly my more refined outlines for the discussion, you can find the post around pg 3. Since the thread revived, I'll move it foward a bit.

and with that I shall leave it be ^_^


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Doctor Khorne wrote:I feel that it is probably Eldar, because of the Webway. This may be magic and not technology, but the two seem mostly indistinguishable in 40k.

Magic tends to be unexplainable science in some way or another, so it's entirely likely.

Oh, I want to play!

Only race that has developed the ability to make their technology faster merely with a coat of coloured paint?

Orks.

Only race that has developed a coherent, consistent, dental based economic model?

Orks.

Only race technologically savvy enough to loot make use of the tech of other races?

Orks.

Only race able to rapidly imitate and adopt the technological concepts of their opponents?

Orks.

Only race able to piece together scrap in such an effective way that MacGuyver hides his pocket knife and bubblegum in shame?

Orks.

Only race that not only adopts the tech of their opponents, but ah... "improves" upon it, by their own standards?

Orks.

DrimGark wrote:Oh, I want to play!

Only race that has developed the ability to make their technology faster merely with a coat of coloured paint?

Orks.

Only race that has developed a coherent, consistent, dental based economic model?

Orks.

Only race technologically savvy enough to loot make use of the tech of other races?

Orks.

Only race able to rapidly imitate and adopt the technological concepts of their opponents?

Orks.

Only race able to piece together scrap in such an effective way that MacGuyver hides his pocket knife and bubblegum in shame?

Orks.

Only race that not only adopts the tech of their opponents, but ah... "improves" upon it, by their own standards?

Orks.

LMAO, you bad bad bad man/fungus

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
List of Races to wipe out countless Races:

Tyranids.

Actually, Humanity joins that list, and the Orks almost certainly do so as well.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Tyranids have a rather bad track record against the Necrons actually, especially in fleet combat.

Well, one Necron Dynasty has lost badly against the Tyranids, although they may have mostly been sleeping and I'm not sure why the Tyranids actually delved into the Tombs.

I don't think ether of you are making good points with your lists. Most things you’re putting on them are quite irreverent. It just looks like trolling. Ultimately your choice is based on opinion due to the lack of unbiased evidence, but at least try and look past the faction you play before you go and ruin my thread.

Hunterindarkness wrote: All you have to do to wipe out the Tyranids is let enough Orks know where the fight is gonna be. Orks be damn right unbeatable if they all joined up.


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AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:This thread isn't about the most dangerous, but about the most technologically advanced. Nids are not techy.

What isn't techy about naturally evolved biological weaponary?

Again, does the Tyranids as a whole understand it? Probably not. They are damned good at one single type of tech, and they as a whole really do not understand it. So yeah they are bottom ol the pile.

Saying Tyranids aren't advanced is saying that only one form of technology is valid as advanced. That is the same a Adeptus Mechanicus saying only human technology is blessed by the Machine god and therefore pure and not wicked alien techno-sorcery. Our form of technology isn't the only form in 40K. Saying Tyranids aren't advanced is just ego and only valid when viewed from a point of view that says our way is best and the more like us you are the more advanced you are.

The arguments against Tyranids being advanced is that their version of technology is very different from our own, created in a manner ours never could be created and is therefore not advanced. Looking at it from the other side of the coin human, Eldar, Ork and Necron technology only exists due to the weakness of those races and is very slow to advance with only a select few having the knowledge to made it work and build it. Tyranids on the other hand are always able to mutate and evolve from a few organisms into a planet-eating swarm.

It has never been proven that Tyranids don't know how their biology works, nobody has ever been able to understand to what extent the Hive Mind controls Tyranid evolution. Also it has been made clear that all people know is that Tyranids evolve, how they do it isn't known. Necrons are supposed to be advanced, but advancement means they understand and can control their technology to their own benefit. This is not the case with the Necrons because their own technology made them extinct. They are now machines based upon living beings and their personalities that died out millions of years ago. In that regard Necrons don't understand their technology because they let it destroy them (an undeniable design flaw if your advanced machines lead to your own extinction) and because they are all dead it's just what they left behind, running on automatic.

Also Tyranids are very good at destroying Necrons. The Silent king the original Necron ruler knows if he can't unite all the Necrons against the Tyranids they will have no chance against them.

nomotog wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

DrimGark wrote:For all practical purposes, "technology" in 40k is "magic nonsense".

Consider:
A ramshakle ork flier that has no right getting off the ground in the first place, let alone being an effective war machine. Why does it defy physics so? Ork gestalt psychic power making it work because they believe/know it works. Perhaps it is even painted red.


Compare:
A Tau skyray. It "looks" aerodynamic and sleek, but merely looking the part isn't going to get you off the ground (unless you are the above Ork, I suppose). It has no more right to be hovering about than the Ork flier has to be in the air. Why does it defy physics so? Anti-gravity devices, clearly! Because those totally aren't an impossibility. (Seriously, there was a special on TV about Sci-fi tech, and a pair of physicists ripped these things apart, while clips from the Clone Wars movie played.) It isn't any less silly than the Ork gestalt.
.

Anti-gravity is only impossable with our current understanding of the natural universe. We still don't even know what gravity is exactly or how it works. It is entirely possable that Gravity is actually caused by some sub-atomic particle that can be manipulated with an EM field.

And the Tau and Eldar anti-grav technology may not be anti-gravity at all. Maybe they have a pressure generator that creates a cushion of air underneath their vehicles, similer to a hover craft, that allows them to glide along with minimal effort.

The Imperium doesn't have anti-grav technology, but rather has plates that keep the speeder up by repelling the planets magnetic field. and as such speeders don't work on planets without magnetic fields.

Are you sure about speeders? Where did you read that?

Space Marine codex under the Land Speeders. It mentions they skim the planets magnetic field. The fact it wouldn't work on a planet without one is just a logical conclusion.

Leech wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote: All you have to do to wipe out the Tyranids is let enough Orks know where the fight is gonna be. Orks be damn right unbeatable if they all joined up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:This thread isn't about the most dangerous, but about the most technologically advanced. Nids are not techy.

What isn't techy about naturally evolved biological weaponary?

Again, does the Tyranids as a whole understand it? Probably not. They are damned good at one single type of tech, and they as a whole really do not understand it. So yeah they are bottom ol the pile.

Saying Tyranids aren't advanced is saying that only one form of technology is valid as advanced. That is the same a Adeptus Mechanicus saying only human technology is blessed by the Machine god and therefore pure and not wicked alien techno-sorcery. Our form of technology isn't the only form in 40K. Saying Tyranids aren't advanced is just ego and only valid when viewed from a point of view that says our way is best and the more like us you are the more advanced you are.

The arguments against Tyranids being advanced is that their version of technology is very different from our own, created in a manner ours never could be created and is therefore not advanced. Looking at it from the other side of the coin human, Eldar, Ork and Necron technology only exists due to the weakness of those races and is very slow to advance with only a select few having the knowledge to made it work and build it. Tyranids on the other hand are always able to mutate and evolve from a few organisms into a planet-eating swarm.

It has never been proven that Tyranids don't know how their biology works, nobody has ever been able to understand to what extent the Hive Mind controls Tyranid evolution. Also it has been made clear that all people know is that Tyranids evolve, how they do it isn't known. Necrons are supposed to be advanced, but advancement means they understand and can control their technology to their own benefit. This is not the case with the Necrons because their own technology made them extinct. They are now machines based upon living beings and their personalities that died out millions of years ago. In that regard Necrons don't understand their technology because they let it destroy them (an undeniable design flaw if your advanced machines lead to your own extinction) and because they are all dead it's just what they left behind, running on automatic.

Also Tyranids are very good at destroying Necrons. The Silent king the original Necron ruler knows if he can't unite all the Necrons against the Tyranids they will have no chance against them.

This.

This is my argument exactly, thank you!

Good that we have established that

BTW, after spending some time thinking, my definition of technology:
TECH is not TECHNOLOGY

Technology is method to describe production of tools which can be taught to be used, modified and improved by others.

So, Chaos instruments are generally out - you must have presence in the warp to use it, and for most things you simply depend on other very special beings. Same goes for most cool things CWE.

On other hand DE, necron, human or tau technologies can be taught to anyone( if there's teachers) - they're just that, technologies.

Orkz and tyranids are things apart - first are instinct-driven ( so while their TECH can be very advanced, their TECHNOLOGY is non-existent), second had no need for technology - they're esentially single being which simply remembers .

chyron wrote:BTW, after spending some time thinking, my definition of technology:

Technology is method to describe production of tools which can be taught to be used, modified and improved by others.

So, Chaos instruments are generally out - you must have presence in the warp to use it, and after some level you simply depend on few semi-omnipotent beings. Same goes for most the things CWE.

On other hand DE, necron, human or tau technologies can be taught to anyone( if there's teachers) - they're just that, technologies.

Orkz and tyranids are things apart - first are instinct-driven ( so while their TECH can be very advanced, their TECHNOLOGY is non-existent), second had no need for technology - they're esentially single being which simply remembers .

That is some extremely selective thinking you have there. The Tyranid race is not instinct driven. They are driven by the Hive Mind conciousness, that knows fully what it is doing. it is sentient. its will is imparted to every corner of the race, giving it purpose and reason. Its technology is selectively bred from countless species genetic data in an attempt to better the entire race. just because one gun is organic and fires beetles and another is made from metal and cordite doesnt make it unworthy of the title "technology"

Definitely Necrons due to the fact that they have existed longer than any other race and can manifest out of anywhere and can survive any damage that they sustain

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:
List of Races to consistently win against every race they have encountered:

Tyranids.

I think Humanity and Orks have something to add to this comment...

Mentlegen324 wrote:Definately the Necrons. I'd say either Imperium (Atleast the older technology) or Tau are 2nd.

Harriticus wrote:Necrons > Eldar/Dark Eldar > Tau > Imperium > Orks

Tyranids really can't be judged alongside the others.

Is Eldar technology actually that advanced? I thought it was mostly reliant on Psykers.

The dark eldar don't

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:This thread isn't about the most dangerous, but about the most technologically advanced. Nids are not techy.

What isn't techy about naturally evolved biological weaponary?

Naturally evolved biological weaponry is about as techy as my ability to snort mucus and spit it at somebody.
By your definition, doing so makes me outrageously technologically advanced?

Necrons don't have technology.

Necrons have comical undead-in-space and 1930's sci-fi tropes (like "death ray" and green bbbzzzzzz-beams") that have been given some random techno-babble explanation as a fig-leaf to shoehorn them into a "space"-setting. Same for Knights/Vikings/Vampires/Romans-in-space. None of their "gear" really qualifies as "technology" really.

Actually, the only reason the silent king wants to unite the crons and stp the nods is so the crons can have living beings to transfer back into.

Zweischneid wrote:Necrons don't have technology.

Necrons have comical undead-in-space and 1930's sci-fi tropes (like "death ray" and green bbbzzzzzz-beams") that have been given some random techno-babble explanation as a fig-leaf to shoehorn them into a "space"-setting. Same for Knights/Vikings/Vampires/Romans-in-space. None of their "gear" really qualifies as "technology" really.

lol a man after my own heart

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

That is some extremely selective thinking you have there. The Tyranid race is not instinct driven. They are driven by the Hive Mind conciousness, that knows fully what it is doing. it is sentient. its will is imparted to every corner of the race, giving it purpose and reason. Its technology is selectively bred from countless species genetic data in an attempt to better the entire race. just because one gun is organic and fires beetles and another is made from metal and cordite doesnt make it unworthy of the title "technology"

I see very selective and unfocused reading too - why you attribute my words 'bout Orkz to Tyranid?
And you surely didn't read first words in BOLD.

Zweischneid wrote:Necrons don't have technology.

Necrons have comical undead-in-space and 1930's sci-fi tropes (like "death ray" and green bbbzzzzzz-beams") that have been given some random techno-babble explanation as a fig-leaf to shoehorn them into a "space"-setting. Same for Knights/Vikings/Vampires/Romans-in-space. None of their "gear" really qualifies as "technology" really.

If somebody were to convey the idea of cars, smart phones, wireless fidelity, etc. to somebody who lived 1500 years ago, I imagine their reply would look something like yours.
Not understanding something has no connection with whether or not it's possible.

In a setting 40,000 years into the future?... I don't understand how people can justify saying "It's all magic nonsense! There is no technology because none of it is possible!" Hmm. Maybe you something about the distant future that the rest of us don't... But my first assumption is that your definition of technology is suspect.
Just like the one who says Tyranids are 'technologically' (instead of biologically) advanced.

Archonate wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Necrons don't have technology.

Necrons have comical undead-in-space and 1930's sci-fi tropes (like "death ray" and green bbbzzzzzz-beams") that have been given some random techno-babble explanation as a fig-leaf to shoehorn them into a "space"-setting. Same for Knights/Vikings/Vampires/Romans-in-space. None of their "gear" really qualifies as "technology" really.

If somebody were to convey the idea of cars, smart phones, wireless fidelity, etc. to somebody who lived 1500 years ago, I imagine their reply would look something like yours.
Not understanding something has no connection with whether or not it's possible.

In a setting 40,000 years into the future?... I don't understand how people can justify saying "It's all magic nonsense! There is no technology because none of it is possible!" Hmm. Maybe you something about the distant future that the rest of us don't... But my first assumption is that your definition of technology is suspect.
Just like the one who says Tyranids are 'technologically' (instead of biologically) advanced.

I agree it is a bad thing to say that Necrons are just comical types with random techno-babble to explain them. Asking that technology from a sci-fi game of the far future be explained is unreasonable. Most people if asked to explain today's technology would no be able to. Just knowing that their net connection uses bandwidth is not understanding, for all most people know bandwidth means pixie-beams sent by Rainbow bright from the mushroom planet.

I think that being biologically advanced is as valid as being technologically advanced. There is no reason at all why technological advancement is superior to biological advancement. That view is based on an unfounded assumption that human/human-like forms of technology are the best and all others must be measured against it, there is no reason it should not be the other way around. All the evidence of modern science says bio-tech is superior, it is harder to create needing much greater skill. It is also far more flexible with more potential set to eventually replace most conventional technology with better results when mastered.

Zweischneid wrote:Necrons don't have technology.

Necrons have comical undead-in-space and 1930's sci-fi tropes (like "death ray" and green bbbzzzzzz-beams") that have been given some random techno-babble explanation as a fig-leaf to shoehorn them into a "space"-setting. Same for Knights/Vikings/Vampires/Romans-in-space. None of their "gear" really qualifies as "technology" really.

Are you under the impression that this is not true for all of 40k?

Science Fiction doesn't get much softer than 40k, short of gak like Gurren Lagaan. It's basically fantasy in spehss.

Orks have paint that makes their trukks go faster just by the virtue of being red. That's pretty advanced right?

I'd say Necrons, but that's because I'm not sure whether the Tyranid's bio-technology counts. If it does, then Tyranids.

Leech wrote:
Also Tyranids are very good at destroying Necrons. The Silent king the original Necron ruler knows if he can't unite all the Necrons against the Tyranids they will have no chance against them.

SOOOOO wrong. If he doesn't unite the Necrons in time, they won't have any potential flesh and blood test subjects for them to figure out how to reverse the biotransference.

King Pariah wrote:

Leech wrote:
Also Tyranids are very good at destroying Necrons. The Silent king the original Necron ruler knows if he can't unite all the Necrons against the Tyranids they will have no chance against them.

SOOOOO wrong. If he doesn't unite the Necrons in time, they won't have any potential flesh and blood test subjects for them to figure out how to reverse the biotransference.

The Necrons would use Tyranids for their biotransference if they could. This strongly indicates that the Necrons won't have the needed military power to achieve this if the Tyranids consume the galaxy. The Silent king also is only working on his own and possibly others limited information on the Tyranids. Tyranids can also eat Necrons. Metals are an important part of a balanced diet, there is enough iron in a persons blood to make an iron nail. The metals of Necrons would make them quite edible.

Necrons>Imperium>Tau

This is just my take on this topic.
If the Imperium was not in such a stagnate with it's tech it might just rivel the necrons given the access to resoures manpower and reasearch facillites that it already has access to.

Archonate wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Necrons don't have technology.

Necrons have comical undead-in-space and 1930's sci-fi tropes (like "death ray" and green bbbzzzzzz-beams") that have been given some random techno-babble explanation as a fig-leaf to shoehorn them into a "space"-setting. Same for Knights/Vikings/Vampires/Romans-in-space. None of their "gear" really qualifies as "technology" really.

If somebody were to convey the idea of cars, smart phones, wireless fidelity, etc. to somebody who lived 1500 years ago, I imagine their reply would look something like yours.
Not understanding something has no connection with whether or not it's possible.

In a setting 40,000 years into the future?... I don't understand how people can justify saying "It's all magic nonsense! There is no technology because none of it is possible!" Hmm. Maybe you something about the distant future that the rest of us don't... But my first assumption is that your definition of technology is suspect.
Just like the one who says Tyranids are 'technologically' (instead of biologically) advanced.

I am not disputing that a sci-fi setting set 40.000 years in the future might include some pretty astonishing, almost "magical" marvels. But 40K is not that setting.

They don't even try or intent to give a technologically coherent vision of a possible future. They try to re-create "non-sci-fi" tropes and than attribute random "techno-babble" to make them fit.

There is a difference between this and the former.

Tau, faster than light travel, Plasma and Fusion tech, no gets hot, railguns.

The Necrons are advanced but static, the Tau are young and rapidly driving their technology forward. By 42 Millienium the Tau would be unstoppable, lucky the 'nids are gonna feast on them first.

Tau faster than light travel sucks compared to everyone else's

Yeah it does, but is safer. However given enough time they are likely to vastly improve it. They might even do something like a warp version of web way corridors that ride the outer edge.

mwnciboo wrote:Tau, faster than light travel, Plasma and Fusion tech, no gets hot, railguns.

The Necrons are advanced but static, the Tau are young and rapidly driving their technology forward. By 42 Millienium the Tau would be unstoppable, lucky the 'nids are gonna feast on them first.

People keep saying the Necrons are static but there's no evidence for this. They aren't held back by dogma like the Ad-Mech in fact if anything they are moving forward still. Crypteks are pretty much scientists after all. As an example in "Hammer and Anvil" the Cryptek Ossuar was gleefully dissecting humans and doing all sorts of diabolical research.

Of course when you have time travelling planets, teleportation, and the like there's isn't much left to achieve.

asimo77 wrote:

People keep saying the Necrons are static but there's no evidence for this. They aren't held back by dogma like the Ad-Mech in fact if anything they are moving forward still. Crypteks are pretty much scientists after all.

Of course when you have time travelling planets, teleportation, and the like there's isn't much left to achieve.

Pretty much this, they are not static, they are asleep. They have not had much need to do anything, now they face new unknown foes and possibility new ideas they can explore.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah it does, but is safer. However given enough time they are likely to vastly improve it. They might even do something like a warp version of web way corridors that ride the outer edge.

Walking is a lot safer than running, but someone who's running is faster, no matter how much you improve your walking technique. Thats how I view the Tau warp travel, at least. Anything else feels like they are stepping on other races toes to me.

I would view the Necrons as static in their technology, they have been the same for thousands of years? Just like the Imperium? Or maybe even longer?

The moment they were imprisoned in their metal skeletons they haven't upgraded themselves, they aren't actively developing new technology? They have reached their zenith.

They are only static because they have literally hit the roof and nothing can go beyond. They are masters of the physical universe such that they appear to violate the laws of physics(when in actuality they simply know how to manipulate the physical universe, to turn the laws on and off again at will)

Imagine if it was discovered that Gravity could simply be manipulated by, lets say, a specific type of quantum particle emmitted by Dark Matter. The Dark Matter in turn only emmits this particle when energized with electricity.

So I put an amount of Dark Matter in a gun and whenever I pull the trigger these particles are emmitted in a beam. I can now turn gravity off, make it 100 times as powerful, or both within seconds of each other.


It would appear I am violating the laws of physics when in actuality I am simply manipulating the physical universe. Gravity still works, but I can change how it works.

I could make gravity instantly weaker and my enemies charging towards me suddenly jump 10 feet into the air, and then I turn gravity on 10 times normal and they slam back down and injure themselves.

mwnciboo Same, The imperiums technology hasn't changed since about the time of the great crusade. Necrons since their transmutation into their metal bodies. Eldar for even Longer!

The Tau and the Tyranid race are the only ones to advance themselves steadily

Not quite correct. The Imperium has recovered alot of technology since the Great Crusade, lost a few things too. The Ad Mech does conduct research, but it is slow.

Most of the advancements have not been put into widespread use, but they are there nontheless.

Randomonioum wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah it does, but is safer. However given enough time they are likely to vastly improve it. They might even do something like a warp version of web way corridors that ride the outer edge.

Walking is a lot safer than running, but someone who's running is faster, no matter how much you improve your walking technique. Thats how I view the Tau warp travel, at least. Anything else feels like they are stepping on other races toes to me.

It is most likely not all that different then the pre navigator human travel. They are new at it as well,so it is unlikely it will stay at its early level.

Grey Templar wrote:Not quite correct. The Imperium has recovered alot of technology since the Great Crusade, lost a few things too. The Ad Mech does conduct research, but it is slow.

Most of the advancements have not been put into widespread use, but they are there nontheless.

Thats recovering technology they had forgotten about, thats not advancing. Advancing is creating new things without following a instruction book, which is all the STC's are. Also to advance as a rase it needs to be in widespread use, something the imperium hardly ever does. The Tau and the Tyranid race on the other hand are constantly adapting and creating new weapons and tech to advance themselves.

Yes, but advancement also needs to better your position. The Imperium is in the position where they don't need to advance. They already have what they need. Lasguns are the perfect weapon to arm billions of guardsmen cheaply and efficiently. Lemun Russ battle tanks also strike the perfect balance between being cheap, easy to use, and powerful.

if they made a more powerful tank, it couldn't be produced in the numbers the Imperium needs. the same goes for why they don't give bolters to guardsmen instead of lasguns.

Advancement is not as simple, or always as benificial, as it sounds.

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, but advancement also needs to better your position. The Imperium is in the position where they don't need to advance. They already have what they need. Lasguns are the perfect weapon to arm billions of guardsmen cheaply and efficiently. Lemun Russ battle tanks also strike the perfect balance between being cheap, easy to use, and powerful.

I'd hardly call the Leman Russ cheap... it takes them forever to produce each one. Lasguns are glorified torches as well. To advance is to go forward, The imperium has only united itself once more, but their technology has made little to no advancement since the great crusade.

if they made a more powerful tank, it couldn't be produced in the numbers the Imperium needs. the same goes for why they don't give bolters to guardsmen instead of lasguns.

They don't give bolters to guardsmen because the bolter was designed and build with the Astartes in mind. the unaltered human body doesnt have the muscle capacity to fire one without extensive training or bulking up. it'd be lible to rip you in half if you fired it.

Advancement is not as simple, or always as benificial, as it sounds.

No, but that said, this thread is based on who has the most advanced technology. The Imperium is stymied, and has been for millennia. the same goes for the elder races like the Necrontyr and the Eldar as well.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah it does, but is safer. However given enough time they are likely to vastly improve it. They might even do something like a warp version of web way corridors that ride the outer edge.

Walking is a lot safer than running, but someone who's running is faster, no matter how much you improve your walking technique. Thats how I view the Tau warp travel, at least. Anything else feels like they are stepping on other races toes to me.

It is most likely not all that different then the pre navigator human travel. They are new at it as well,so it is unlikely it will stay at its early level.

Likely does not equal fact. But yes, the humans managed to develop a new version of travel, using psychic abilities through Navigators. Tau, unfortunately, don't have that luxury. That being said, if they justified it with some other race navigating for them, I would love it, and be happy to accept it. I just think that using pure tech to navigate the warp is very iffy, and tech is what the tau do best.

Necrons.
Then Eldar
Then Imperium/Chaos
Then Tau (The Imperium has more advanced tech but Tau have an equal tech level across their empire whereas the Imperium does not)

Randomonioum wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah it does, but is safer. However given enough time they are likely to vastly improve it. They might even do something like a warp version of web way corridors that ride the outer edge.

Walking is a lot safer than running, but someone who's running is faster, no matter how much you improve your walking technique. Thats how I view the Tau warp travel, at least. Anything else feels like they are stepping on other races toes to me.

It is most likely not all that different then the pre navigator human travel. They are new at it as well,so it is unlikely it will stay at its early level.

Likely does not equal fact. But yes, the humans managed to develop a new version of travel, using psychic abilities through Navigators. Tau, unfortunately, don't have that luxury. That being said, if they justified it with some other race navigating for them, I would love it, and be happy to accept it. I just think that using pure tech to navigate the warp is very iffy, and tech is what the tau do best.

I'm most likely wrong in saying this, but, I was under the assumption that Tau have faster than light travel and do not use the Immaterium like other races.

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah it does, but is safer. However given enough time they are likely to vastly improve it. They might even do something like a warp version of web way corridors that ride the outer edge.

Walking is a lot safer than running, but someone who's running is faster, no matter how much you improve your walking technique. Thats how I view the Tau warp travel, at least. Anything else feels like they are stepping on other races toes to me.

It is most likely not all that different then the pre navigator human travel. They are new at it as well,so it is unlikely it will stay at its early level.

Likely does not equal fact. But yes, the humans managed to develop a new version of travel, using psychic abilities through Navigators. Tau, unfortunately, don't have that luxury. That being said, if they justified it with some other race navigating for them, I would love it, and be happy to accept it. I just think that using pure tech to navigate the warp is very iffy, and tech is what the tau do best.

I'm most likely wrong in saying this, but, I was under the assumption that Tau have faster than light travel and do not use the Immaterium like other races.

You are most likely thinking of the (old) necrons, the Tau ships skim the edge of the warp, resulting in slower but safer travel.

Randomonioum wrote:

AnUnearthlyChilde wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Yeah it does, but is safer. However given enough time they are likely to vastly improve it. They might even do something like a warp version of web way corridors that ride the outer edge.

Walking is a lot safer than running, but someone who's running is faster, no matter how much you improve your walking technique. Thats how I view the Tau warp travel, at least. Anything else feels like they are stepping on other races toes to me.

It is most likely not all that different then the pre navigator human travel. They are new at it as well,so it is unlikely it will stay at its early level.

Likely does not equal fact. But yes, the humans managed to develop a new version of travel, using psychic abilities through Navigators. Tau, unfortunately, don't have that luxury. That being said, if they justified it with some other race navigating for them, I would love it, and be happy to accept it. I just think that using pure tech to navigate the warp is very iffy, and tech is what the tau do best.

I'm most likely wrong in saying this, but, I was under the assumption that Tau have faster than light travel and do not use the Immaterium like other races.

You are most likely thinking of the (old) necrons, the Tau ships skim the edge of the warp, resulting in slower but safer travel.

Fair enough lols... Tau aren't my strong point out of all the factions... probably because they are American's in space >_<

Randomonioum wrote:

Likely does not equal fact. But yes, the humans managed to develop a new version of travel, using psychic abilities through Navigators. Tau, unfortunately, don't have that luxury. That being said, if they justified it with some other race navigating for them, I would love it, and be happy to accept it. I just think that using pure tech to navigate the warp is very iffy, and tech is what the tau do best.

However dark age humans (Some at lest) did have devices that did the same thing, if slower(5 -10 day jump). The Navigator house have saw that most of these devices have been destroyed once found, but there are out there. So it is very possible to nav the warp based solely upon machines,. The again, clone gown Bio-navagators(Brains in a jar) would be within their reach tech wise as well. I am just saying just because they now have slow FTL travel does not mean they always will, most races once had slow travel as well.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:

Likely does not equal fact. But yes, the humans managed to develop a new version of travel, using psychic abilities through Navigators. Tau, unfortunately, don't have that luxury. That being said, if they justified it with some other race navigating for them, I would love it, and be happy to accept it. I just think that using pure tech to navigate the warp is very iffy, and tech is what the tau do best.

However dark age humans (Some at lest) did have devices that did the same thing, if slower(5 -10 day jump). The Navigator house have saw that most of these devices have been destroyed once found, but there are out there. So it is very possible to nav the warp based solely upon machines,. The again, clone gown Bio-navagators(Brains in a jar) would be within their reach tech wise as well. I am just saying just because they now have slow FTL travel does not mean they always will, most races once had slow travel as well.

Isn't there already a race navigating for them? Like the Nicassar or something like that

jgehunter wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:

Likely does not equal fact. But yes, the humans managed to develop a new version of travel, using psychic abilities through Navigators. Tau, unfortunately, don't have that luxury. That being said, if they justified it with some other race navigating for them, I would love it, and be happy to accept it. I just think that using pure tech to navigate the warp is very iffy, and tech is what the tau do best.

However dark age humans (Some at lest) did have devices that did the same thing, if slower(5 -10 day jump). The Navigator house have saw that most of these devices have been destroyed once found, but there are out there. So it is very possible to nav the warp based solely upon machines,. The again, clone gown Bio-navagators(Brains in a jar) would be within their reach tech wise as well. I am just saying just because they now have slow FTL travel does not mean they always will, most races once had slow travel as well.

Isn't there already a race navigating for them? Like the Nicassar or something like that

They don't really get invloved because the tau don't want the IoM to learn about them. link

I've never heard the Tau compared to america before. always communists or Chinese. Thats why I have this thing in my sig.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Randomonioum wrote:

Likely does not equal fact. But yes, the humans managed to develop a new version of travel, using psychic abilities through Navigators. Tau, unfortunately, don't have that luxury. That being said, if they justified it with some other race navigating for them, I would love it, and be happy to accept it. I just think that using pure tech to navigate the warp is very iffy, and tech is what the tau do best.

However dark age humans (Some at lest) did have devices that did the same thing, if slower(5 -10 day jump). The Navigator house have saw that most of these devices have been destroyed once found, but there are out there. So it is very possible to nav the warp based solely upon machines,. The again, clone gown Bio-navagators(Brains in a jar) would be within their reach tech wise as well. I am just saying just because they now have slow FTL travel does not mean they always will, most races once had slow travel as well.

Source on the tech devices? I know they had warp travel pre navigators, and obviously it was done through tech, but I would have placed it at around Tau level of speed. And they need an understanding of the warp anyway, which they don't have, they refuse to even acknowledge it. Besides, having the Tau being able to do everything would be a waste, when they could rely on another race (Like they do now), and that race has a stranglehold on them. The IoM doesn't need a monopoly on politics!

Necrons hands down...it's so advanced no one understands how it works

Orks.


I remember one story where the Imperium got ahold of some Ork tek, and opened it up to see how it worked. The inner workings of the gun was a giant bullet. No firing pin, nothing but a giant bullet. And yet it can fire.

Viersche wrote:Necrons hands down...it's so advanced no one understands how it works

By that logic, the Imperium has Millennia old technology that they have no idea how it works, it just does... so that makes them as advanced as Necrons then

I just want to remind you all that while Ork tech is crude, its effective, and CAN be quite advanced. A good example would be the Shokk Attack Gun. It is a shoulder mounted gun that opens up a portal in the warp (usually) stable enough for living creatures to pass through unharmed. They also have the Telyporta technology, which allowed Ghazghkull to bring down pre-built Gargants, along with other reinforcements after landing on Armageddon. The tech is crude, but if you get a good Mek, its effective, so you shouldn't count the Orks out just yet