“I’m retiring. I’m moving away from the business, from the company, from all this kind of stuff.” Aside from a possible fifth Indiana Jones movie, which is more or less handled by software these days, Lucas says he plans to follow his friend Francis Ford Coppola’s example and instead focus on making “more personal” films described as “small in scope, esoteric in subject and screened mostly in art houses”—and most importantly, away from jerks who don’t like what he did with Star Wars.
“Why would I make any more when everybody yells at you all the time and says what a terrible person you are?” Lucas grumbles of Star Wars fans, comparing their pleas to stop changing everything about the films they like to the dictatorial demands of the studios, as they both rob him of the important freedom to alter his past work to fit his every passing whim.
If you missed the Daily Show interview you also missed a great moment where we found out that the impetus for him making Red Tails was to inspire black teens and that he is the first to make a movie about the Tuskegee Airmen.
Haters gonna hate I guess. I actually enjoy his work (though Crystal Skull was TERRIBAD simply because of Shia Labeouf), even Howard the Duck ROFLROFLROFL
I liked the prequals and the new Indiana Jones movie, I have had a million people tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I am to young to have seen Star Wars in Theaters, and the Indiana Jones in theaters.
Alexzandvar wrote:I liked the prequals and the new Indiana Jones movie, I have had a million people tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I am to young to have seen Star Wars in Theaters, and the Indiana Jones in theaters.
But you know what? I like what I like.
You're right, with his amazing script writing skills, the world will be depraved of these gems:
Anakin: "You are so... beautiful."
Padmé: "It's only because I'm so in love."
Anakin: "No, it's because I'm so in love with you."
Padmé: "So love has blinded you?"
Anakin: "Well, that's not exactly what I meant."
Padmé: "But it's probably true."
and
"From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again... I'm in agony. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you—I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me... what can I do? I will do anything you ask."
Alexzandvar wrote:I liked the prequals and the new Indiana Jones movie, I have had a million people tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because I am to young to have seen Star Wars in Theaters, and the Indiana Jones in theaters.
But you know what? I like what I like.
You're right, with his amazing script writing skills, the world will be depraved of these gems:
Anakin: "You are so... beautiful."
Padmé: "It's only because I'm so in love."
Anakin: "No, it's because I'm so in love with you."
Padmé: "So love has blinded you?"
Anakin: "Well, that's not exactly what I meant."
Padmé: "But it's probably true."
and
"From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again... I'm in agony. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you—I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me... what can I do? I will do anything you ask."
"From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again... I'm in agony. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you—I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me... what can I do? I will do anything you ask."
Are we sure this isn't from one of the Twilight movies?
"From the moment I met you, all those years ago, not a day has gone by when I haven't thought of you. And now that I'm with you again... I'm in agony. The closer I get to you, the worse it gets. The thought of not being with you—I can't breathe. I'm haunted by the kiss that you should never have given me. My heart is beating, hoping that kiss will not become a scar. You are in my very soul, tormenting me... what can I do? I will do anything you ask."
Are we sure this isn't from one of the Twilight movies?
Also, don't be hatin' on Willow, dammit.
Haha, it's from Attack of the clones
Hearing those lines come out of actors mouths seriously made me cringe on how hard lucas made us try and care about that love story...
The love story was a pathetic attempt at explaining their relationship, although it was totally unnecessary in AotC, because the third movie really did it for me in that department.
In the third, I could tell that they really loved each other, as opposed to the childish nonsense in the second. Plus, with anakin turning all 'sinister' and what-not, it really made it.
I just bought the original trilogy on blu ray and omg they blow episodes 1-3 out of the fething galaxy. From the way the shots are set up to the acting and dialog, everything is just more magical and not some CGI snooze fest. Same thing goes for the Indiana Jones movies. KOTCS was done by the numbers.
Samus_aran115 wrote:The love story was a pathetic attempt at explaining their relationship, although it was totally unnecessary in AotC, because the third movie really did it for me in that department.
In the third, I could tell that they really loved each other, as opposed to the childish nonsense in the second. Plus, with anakin turning all 'sinister' and what-not, it really made it.
I don't mind all of the changes he has made to the Star Wars movies - in some cases, I think he improved the movie. For example, the Ewoks had eye blinking added to them when it was redone. Things like that are OK with me since it enhanced the movie without actually altering it. I also am OK with stuff like adding more aliens to the cantina scene.
Things that dramatically alter how the characters are perceived - Greedo shooting first - those are the real problem. But we all know that, so I'm being redundant.
Ouze wrote:
Things that dramatically alter how the characters are perceived - Greedo shooting first - those are the real problem. But we all know that, so I'm being redundant.
I don't mind the scene where Jabba replaced his underling.
Meh. The prequels were bad movies, but they'd done and can't be undone. Crystal Skull was also pretty lame, and sunk the other Lucas franchise that had goodwill left in it.
So really, what's left for Lucas to do in the world of big budget movies for nerds? He couldn't
I like his claim he's going to go do personal, arthouse films now. A bit like Michael Bay claiming the same thing in the wake of Transformers II. As if an arthouse film was just the bit with the actors, but none of the hassle about lining up CGI production schedules. It worked for Coppola, because even with his big budget films he was dealing with serious issues, and telling the story through fully developed characters.
I mean, I love what Lucas did in the early part of his career, with Star Wars and Indiana Jones, his flair for serial storytelling worked well there, but let's be honest, even in his best movies where the dialogue worked and the characters came to life it was rarely because of him.
With a lot of people contesting his bad decisions and other people having serious creative input his ideas were able to be shaped into brilliant stories. But when he has complete control......yeah.
ChocolateGork wrote:With a lot of people contesting his bad decisions and other people having serious creative input his ideas were able to be shaped into brilliant stories. But when he has complete control......yeah.
Even then, I wouldn't say they were brilliant. Starwars was a real marvel of technology at the time, and had a solid plot and some iconic characters, but hardly anything original or thought provoking.
sebster wrote:I mean, I love what Lucas did in the early part of his career, with Star Wars and Indiana Jones, his flair for serial storytelling worked well there, but let's be honest, even in his best movies where the dialogue worked and the characters came to life it was rarely because of him.
Good. This is the moron who brought us Ewoks, Gungans, Hayden Christiansen, anti-Communist monkeys and giant ants. I will not miss him.
I mean he only wrote Episode IV which, don't get me wrong, may be good but it's pretty much 'Space Princess is kidnapped by Space Lord but gets saved by humble farmboy who finds out he actually has magical powers'.
My favourite of the films is Return of the Jedi and that, as well as Empire Strikes Back, wasn't directed by Lucas. Hell he didn't even write the second one (though I am not sure about the third). In short, before we started hailing Star Wars as his 'singular vision', he was moderated and not given total control. And that's how it should have stayed.
With the latest Indiana Jones, I like to imagine it was Spielberg doing all the work whilst Georgey, left in the corner with his crayons, just had an epic tantrum about wanting cute monkeys..
AustonT wrote:Add fethface from the prequels to RotJ as Lukes father instead of the original actor, feth why not put ewan macgraegor to replace Alec guiness.
Yeah that really confused me because Lucas did that BEFORE he made the prequals.
I am one of those old gits that can remember queueing round the block to see the original movies in the cinema. I have seen every single release of a Star Wars film in the cinema and the prequals are weak, limp wristed pieces of marketing toss by comparison to the originals.
4-6 had heart and soul poured into them 1-3 had their soul sold for box office cash. I sat in the cinema wondering how far Lucas had declined into dementia for episodes 1-3 to even seem passable to him.
Although 1 could be dismissed, perhaps, as not being necessary.
3, despite Christiansen's best attempts to de-rail it with EPIC WHINING, was quite dramatic, even if it did feature that cringe-worthy scene with 'so this is how democracy dies...' (don't try to be profound, George).
2, however, was just utter mush and vomit-inducing. Sure we get a nice CGI fight at the end but up till then it's Lucas-tries-to-do-romance. IT'S LIKE YOU'RE TORMENTING ME!
I don't mind the new films, but the way he screws around with the old ones is a problem, especially when he won't offer us the choice of watching the old ones.
Okay, he did eventually allow the release of the original cuts of the films as a 'special feature' alongside the Special Editions of the films. But as they were 'special features' they were just transfers from previous releases and didn't have the restoration with to clean up a few of the issues and return them to the original quality.
Cleaning up the footage to restore the original look is not the same as filling the film with CGI clutter BTW.
Why can't he understand that people want the nostalgia value of seeing their films as they were when they were young? It's really not a difficult concept to grasp.
-Loki- wrote:So I sent this to my fiancee at work. Her response was priceless.
What a cry baby.
I'm a billionaire waaa!!!
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sebster wrote:Meh. The prequels were bad movies, but they'd done and can't be undone. Crystal Skull was also pretty lame, and sunk the other Lucas franchise that had goodwill left in it.
So really, what's left for Lucas to do in the world of big budget movies for nerds? He couldn't
I like his claim he's going to go do personal, arthouse films now. A bit like Michael Bay claiming the same thing in the wake of Transformers II. As if an arthouse film was just the bit with the actors, but none of the hassle about lining up CGI production schedules. It worked for Coppola, because even with his big budget films he was dealing with serious issues, and telling the story through fully developed characters.
I mean, I love what Lucas did in the early part of his career, with Star Wars and Indiana Jones, his flair for serial storytelling worked well there, but let's be honest, even in his best movies where the dialogue worked and the characters came to life it was rarely because of him.
I thought Spielberg did the Indiana Jones movies. Am I wrong in that?
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Sonophos wrote:It is unlike Mr Lucas to miss out on a marketing ploy.
Why does he not just relase each edition in a separte box set and a huge big set?
There are a LOT of fans out there that would buy such things.
I see the 3 redo's are now coming out in 3D. Seriously count me out.
ChocolateGork wrote:With a lot of people contesting his bad decisions and other people having serious creative input his ideas were able to be shaped into brilliant stories. But when he has complete control......yeah.
Even then, I wouldn't say they were brilliant. Starwars was a real marvel of technology at the time, and had a solid plot and some iconic characters, but hardly anything original or thought provoking.
A lot of people reckon Lucas's best film ever was "American Graffitti".
The best Star Wars is "The Empire Strikes Back", which he didn't direct.
It was Spielberg who directed all the Indiana Jones films so you can't blame Lucas for those.
You know, I really like George as an idea's kind of guy. He is generally a pretty strong producer, and is at his best when he gives other people the room to tweak and build on his ideas.
I think as a director and screen writer he has a lot of sharp edges. Also, he has grown rigid with age, and reluctant to let people play around in the owrlds he has created.
Plus, no one can claim that he doesn't understand the "business" of making movies. I think he was/is a pioneer in that regard.
I think I am the only guy on the planet who honestly prefers Return of the Jedi...
Nothing happens in Empire! We get lovely Hoth and then some incredibly boring exploits on Cloud City whilst Luke plays around in a swamp... Finally Luke turns up at Bespin, gets the chance to have that immortal line delivered to him, reacts worse than Hayden Chrstiansen: NOOOOOOOOOOOO-NOOOOOO-NOOOOOOO! and the films ends with his kewl robotic hand.
RotJ all the way. Just pretend the Ewoks are Wookies or something...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just tell me the space battle at Endor wasn't epic... Just don't ask yourself how the Empire lost after the Death Star blew up (they could have gone... 'crap the Death Star blew up!' 'n' just charged in and pweened the Rebels before mourning for Palpy...)
Your arguments are compelling. ROTJ does have the best space battle.
I think the idea is that the Emperor was holding the fleet in thrall using the dark side. When he died they all thought WTF am I doing this is just a really bad idea.
Maybe Luke being the Jedi that he had just become got on the comms and said "These are not the ships you are looking for."
Either that or they should do a whole sequence where the rebels kick thier butts using all the fighters they have scrambled. The star destroyers kept thiers in the bays.
Henners91 wrote:I think I am the only guy on the planet who honestly prefers Return of the Jedi...
Nothing happens in Empire! We get lovely Hoth and then some incredibly boring exploits on Cloud City whilst Luke plays around in a swamp... Finally Luke turns up at Bespin, gets the chance to have that immortal line delivered to him, reacts worse than Hayden Chrstiansen: NOOOOOOOOOOOO-NOOOOOO-NOOOOOOO! and the films ends with his kewl robotic hand.
RotJ all the way. Just pretend the Ewoks are Wookies or something...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just tell me the space battle at Endor wasn't epic... Just don't ask yourself how the Empire lost after the Death Star blew up (they could have gone... 'crap the Death Star blew up!' 'n' just charged in and pweened the Rebels before mourning for Palpy...)
Unless I'm mistaken (I'm not a Star Wars nerd, I just like the movies and a few of the games), the expanded universe answers this question. It's not so much that the Empire falls because the Death Star blows up, it's that their leaders have both died, and the Empire is falling into chaos as more and more Imperials vie for the position of leader. IIRC, the war actually continues a good number of years because the Empire was so large and powerful.
On-topic, I seem to be one of the few who enjoyed all six movies. The fights were always good, the plots were dramatic, and the characters were interesting. I admit that I hadn't yet been born when the original trilogy was in theaters, but I have fond memories of watching all three original movies on VHS when I was a kid. I really didn't mind the changes he made to the movie - to be honest, I hardly notice them. The scene with Greedo looks a bit silly (Han seems to teleport when he dodges the shot) but all in all, it seems like people react as though he edited all of Vader's lines to be spoken by Gilbert Gottfried.
Maybe I just don't get it since I never saw them in theaters, but really. Some Star Wars nerds act as though it was a tragedy of epic proportions that Lucas retroactively edited his own masterpiece to make it look and sound better.
ChocolateGork wrote:With a lot of people contesting his bad decisions and other people having serious creative input his ideas were able to be shaped into brilliant stories. But when he has complete control......yeah.
Even then, I wouldn't say they were brilliant. Starwars was a real marvel of technology at the time, and had a solid plot and some iconic characters, but hardly anything original or thought provoking.
A lot of people reckon Lucas's best film ever was "American Graffitti".
The war carries on, yes, and I think in the expanded universe it's stated that despite his 'distractions' with Luke 'n' Vader 'n' all the Emperor was using battle meditation.
He had ordered the fleet to stay back, too, though they were engaged by the rebels at close range to shield their cruisers from the Death Star.
What I don't understand is how the rebels successfully disengaged a fleet that they went into close-quarters with and was a lot bigger than them... this isn't a question of whether the war continued (it did, aye) but rather the result of a battle. The command ship was destroyed I suppose and the Emperor killed, I think the canon explanation is that the fleet retreats in panic... But darn it! The Impy officers were British! Stiff upper lips should have prevailed and discipline be maintained I am sure there was still a chain of command to follow...
I think the Empire splitting up into warring sects under the Moffs is fair enough, but that wouldn't have started happening during the battle itself would it? Or was there an awkward moment when three Impy officers realised they had the same rank?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But surely, provided they didn't retreat and even without direction from superiors or battle meditation, the Empire's fleet was big enough that even in anarchy they could have pweened the rebs
RotJ was the best Star Wars movie. Episode 1 was ok (go Liam Neeson!), 2 made me cringe a bit, and 3 should have just been a 2 and a half hour movie about Jar-Jar dying, give the fans a some bang for their buck.
As far as I'm concerned the Star Wars series starts when Padme and Anakin land on the planet where that big fight takes place. Nothing before that really adds anything to the story.
And god did I feel bad for actors like Natalie Portman and McGregor when I watched that series. Excellent actors forced into bad acting by horrible directing and a horrible script.
I'm glad he's retiring. I'm over him destroying his work and the work of others that kept star wars alive between films.
Sidenote on the rebels winning at Endor. In the books the Emperor has for years been basically supplanting a large portion of the fleet and it's officers freewill with total obediance. He was also supposedley increasing their effectiveness and discipline. So when the Emperor died not only were the people missing that controlling presence but they weren't exactly on the top of their game like the rebels were skill wise. None of which matters since that was brought forth originally in the Timonthy Zahn series which Lucas butchered with his take on the Republic and the Clone Wars.
I don't get the love for ROTJ. That was just a preview for the prequels, IMO...creaky dialogue, wooden performances, strange lack of actual drama. Check out Ford's performance...even he can't rise above the script. But to each his own. It's interesting to me that the critics were lukewarm on TESB in 1980, and now most feel it's the best film (I think it is by far).
It kinda begs the question...do some writers and directors just get lucky early on and then coast? Look at Sly Stallone. Rocky is a terrific film, it really is. Stallone wrote a gem of a movie there...smart dialogue, great characters, and a fairly non-Hollywood ending (he loses). But all the sequels that came later -- although still crowd-pleasing -- were progressively worse movies (although Rocky Balboa was IMO a slight improvement).
I wanna know what happened to the guy who wrote Rocky just like I wanna know what happened to the guy who directed and wrote American Graffiti.
Ahtman wrote:
If you missed the Daily Show interview you also missed a great moment where we found out that the impetus for him making Red Tails was to inspire black teens and that he is the first to make a movie about the Tuskegee Airmen.
There was a movie starring Laurence Fishburne about the Tuskegee Airmen before Red Tails (was about to say recent, because I just saw it earlier today but failed to remember the title, but apparently it was originally released in 95).. I *THINK* the thing that makes Red Tails much more important as a movie is that the cast is much more predominately black, and is not a "black comedy" (such as Tyler Perry movies and the like)
Initial reviews are few so far but strictly meh on Rotten Tomatoes. Now that Lucas went wa waing, I'm concerned the movie could suck, so want to see some good reviews before I spend ill gotten gains on it.
Ahtman wrote:
If you missed the Daily Show interview you also missed a great moment where we found out that the impetus for him making Red Tails was to inspire black teens and that he is the first to make a movie about the Tuskegee Airmen.
There was a movie starring Laurence Fishburne about the Tuskegee Airmen before Red Tails (was about to say recent, because I just saw it earlier today but failed to remember the title, but apparently it was originally released in 95).. I *THINK* the thing that makes Red Tails much more important as a movie is that the cast is much more predominately black, and is not a "black comedy" (such as Tyler Perry movies and the like)
To you and the posters above you, I have a direct link to the Laurence Fishburne movie at IMDB. It is right there in the quote and everything, though for some reason it has the picture of the PBS documentary on the page, but the rest of the info is for the movie. It isn't made up of comedians and is predominantly black.
SilverMK2 wrote:Never been a fan of Starwars, and really not a fan of Lucas as a person, director, and certainly not as a writer.
I tend to agree. I feel that the Star Wars films in particular are incredibly overrated by certain folks. Special mention must go to the acting, which is uniformly dreadful in all three of the originals.
Henners91 wrote: Sure we get a nice CGI fight at the end but up till then it's Lucas-tries-to-do-romance.
Did we watch the same movie? The duel in AotC was the worst of all the films? And for that to have followed the Duel in TPM
was even crazier. Obi/Qui-Gon/Maul was very physical and intense. even with the stupid random force field high jinx. The one in AotC
looked like 2 actors swinging flashlights infront of themselves, just out of camera view. WEAK!
The best things about the prequels were both killed off in TPM: Ray Park and Liam Neeson. Killing off the two most interesting and original (for the prequels, anyway) characters right out of the gate should have been a big ol' red flag of what was to come.
Ahtman wrote:The best things about the prequels were both killed off in TPM: Ray Park and Liam Neeson. Killing off the two most interesting and original (for the prequels, anyway) characters right out of the gate should have been a big ol' red flag of what was to come.
Also, not re-hiring the professional weapon master that does all the best melee weapon based fight choreography in Hollywood was probably a bad plan.
Having read the original script (lucas wrote all 6 movies in 1 script, chose the last 3 to make) I just wish he would have just fething stuck with it. Good riddence George. Fuel your crack habit another way. Whoring out the star wars universe no longer is how you get your fix.
Fafnir wrote:Even then, I wouldn't say they were brilliant. Starwars was a real marvel of technology at the time, and had a solid plot and some iconic characters, but hardly anything original or thought provoking.
Star Wars really was an exceptional story. The reason it doesn't feel so amazing now is because it's been copied over and over again.
You can find early scripts for Star Wars online, as well as short stories by Lucas that are very similar, and they give a decent glimpse into what 70s science fiction was like at the time. Lucas had the instinct to want something more fun, more like the pulpy sci-fi of years gone by, but left to his own devices what he was producing still had all the gobblidigook of the sci-fi of the time.
Francis Ford Coppola took him away for a week, and just hammered into Lucas everything he knew about storytelling. Lucas then put that into Star Wars, and the result was basically the invention of the high concept movie… the modern blockbuster.
Over time Lucas has steadily lost the disciplines Coppola hammered into him, and it’s funny how much the over plotted, tedious mess that was the prequels have in common with Lucas’s early drafts for Star Wars.
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Frazzled wrote:I thought Spielberg did the Indiana Jones movies. Am I wrong in that?
Lucas wrote and produced, Spielberg directed and produced. There was close collaboration between the two men throughout the process.
The big thing is that Lucas loves the hell out of the old serial pulp adventures, and that's basically what Indiana Jones is. The idea of whip cracking archaeologist going from site to site, battling nazis to uncover mystical artifacts is all Lucas.
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Kilkrazy wrote:A lot of people reckon Lucas's best film ever was "American Graffitti".
Whereas those of us who've seen it know otherwise. I mean, it's an alright movie and everything, but it would have been long forgotten if it wasn't by the guy who made Star Wars.
It was Spielberg who directed all the Indiana Jones films so you can't blame Lucas for those.
Lucas wrote and produced, and the idea of having a hero like in those old serial adventures was all Lucas.
And why would be 'blame' anyone for the Indiana Jones movies? The first is about as good an adventure movie as there's ever been.
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Henners91 wrote:I think I am the only guy on the planet who honestly prefers Return of the Jedi...
Nothing happens in Empire! We get lovely Hoth and then some incredibly boring exploits on Cloud City whilst Luke plays around in a swamp... Finally Luke turns up at Bespin, gets the chance to have that immortal line delivered to him, reacts worse than Hayden Chrstiansen: NOOOOOOOOOOOO-NOOOOOO-NOOOOOOO! and the films ends with his kewl robotic hand.
The heroes are hiding on the ice planet Hoth when the Empire discovers them and attacks, despite the efforts of our heroes they are overwhelmed and have to retreat. Our heroes split up at this point, with the Millennium Falcon chased by Empire forces through an asteroid field, and when they hide in an asteroid it turns out it’s actually a space monster, forcing another hasty escape, at which point they hide on a starship before craftily sneaking away, before fleeing to Cloud City to meet up with an old friend, Lando, who it turns out betrayed them to the Empire, and they are captured. They are held captive as a trap for Luke, with Han frozen solid in carbonite.
While that was all happening Meanwhile, Luke travelled to Hoth to meet a wise old Jedi master, who begins to train him, only for Luke to see a vision of his friend’s capture, and head off to save them.
It turns out Lando was only helping the Empire reluctantly, and frees Leia and Chewie, and they all head off to try and save Han. Luke arrives, but is directed away from his friends and into a conflict with Darth Vader, and in their duel he first cuts off Luke's hand, then tells him he is his father. Luke refuses to believe this. The others are unsuccessful in rescuing Han, and flee the station. Luke flees his father, falling through the station. Leaving Cloud City, Leia feels look is in need of help, and they circle around the base of the station, and rescue him. Luke gets a new robot hand.
sebster wrote:Star Wars really was an exceptional story. The reason it doesn't feel so amazing now is because it's been copied over and over again.
The impact has also been lost. I mean, these days even people who have never seen the original trilogy know the plot. "I am your father" was a bomb that could only be felt once.
sebster wrote:Star Wars really was an exceptional story. The reason it doesn't feel so amazing now is because it's been copied over and over again.
The impact has also been lost. I mean, these days even people who have never seen the original trilogy know the plot. "I am your father" was a bomb that could only be felt once.
SilverMK2 wrote:Never been a fan of Starwars, and really not a fan of Lucas as a person, director, and certainly not as a writer.
I tend to agree. I feel that the Star Wars films in particular are incredibly overrated by certain folks. Special mention must go to the acting, which is uniformly dreadful in all three of the originals.
No, I disagree with that. It's not uniform at all, IMO. Ford and Fisher are pretty good in TESK. Hamill's actually not terrible in it either, which is saying something. Then in ROTJ, Ford and Fisher lose any spark they previously had, which goes to show you that good actors can't overcome a poor script.
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sebster wrote:
Fafnir wrote:Even then, I wouldn't say they were brilliant. Starwars was a real marvel of technology at the time, and had a solid plot and some iconic characters, but hardly anything original or thought provoking.
Star Wars really was an exceptional story. The reason it doesn't feel so amazing now is because it's been copied over and over again.
Lucas had a lot of influences, most of them ancient literature actually. Dune has f all to do with star wars, nothing like it really, unless spaceships and special powers are your only qualification.
Ancient Literature? Maybe a smattering of Joseph Campbell, but a lot more old movies and pulps. Check out Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress" while you're at it, if you want to meet Leia's predecessor, as well as R2 and 3PO's.
Mannahnin wrote:Ancient Literature? Maybe a smattering of Joseph Campbell, but a lot more old movies and pulps. Check out Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress" while you're at it, if you want to meet Leia's predecessor, as well as R2 and 3PO's.
There is all kinds of inspiration from ancient literature in star wars, plus plenty of pulp fiction (the genre not the actual movie), a touch from westerns and yes Kurosawa......but no dune.
sebster wrote:The heroes are hiding on the ice planet Hoth when the Empire discovers them and attacks, despite the efforts of our heroes they are overwhelmed and have to retreat. Our heroes split up at this point, with the Millennium Falcon chased by Empire forces through an asteroid field, and when they hide in an asteroid it turns out it’s actually a space monster, forcing another hasty escape, at which point they hide on a starship before craftily sneaking away, before fleeing to Cloud City to meet up with an old friend, Lando, who it turns out betrayed them to the Empire, and they are captured. They are held captive as a trap for Luke, with Han frozen solid in carbonite.
While that was all happening Meanwhile, Luke travelled to Hoth to meet a wise old Jedi master, who begins to train him, only for Luke to see a vision of his friend’s capture, and head off to save them.
It turns out Lando was only helping the Empire reluctantly, and frees Leia and Chewie, and they all head off to try and save Han. Luke arrives, but is directed away from his friends and into a conflict with Darth Vader, and in their duel he first cuts off Luke's hand, then tells him he is his father. Luke refuses to believe this. The others are unsuccessful in rescuing Han, and flee the station. Luke flees his father, falling through the station. Leaving Cloud City, Leia feels look is in need of help, and they circle around the base of the station, and rescue him. Luke gets a new robot hand.
Nothing happens?!
I must agree with everything, except he went to Dagobah to meet Yoda.
LordofHats wrote:The impact has also been lost. I mean, these days even people who have never seen the original trilogy know the plot. "I am your father" was a bomb that could only be felt once.
True, the story is old and well known now. But it isn’t just Star Wars and it’s story that was a brand new thing, it was the idea that with a simple, appealing story idea and good production values you could rake in a huge box office. Previously the big money movies had been far more weighty films like 2001, while lighter genre fair was mostly just low budget, minor stuff. While Star Wars itself was not a big budget movie, it showed how much money films like that could make, and it led to studios rebuilding their approach to filmmaking entirely.
Think about all the great big nerd movies we’ve all loved over the last 30 years, from Indiana Jones to Spiderman and Lord of the Rings… none of that would exist if Star Wars hadn’t shown the market that was out there.
gorgon wrote:No, I disagree with that. It's not uniform at all, IMO. Ford and Fisher are pretty good in TESK. Hamill's actually not terrible in it either, which is saying something. Then in ROTJ, Ford and Fisher lose any spark they previously had, which goes to show you that good actors can't overcome a poor script.
Hamill was pretty good in the original film, and pretty passive through ESB and downright boring in RotJ (I think it has something to do with how hard it is to play a Jedi, Liam Neeson was fairly dull as well, and Ewan MacGregor only got interesting when he started copying Alec Guinness more closely… I guess all that just shows to go how marvellous Alec Guinness was as an actor).
Lucas copied about 30 plot points from Dune.
You don’t measure a story by how original its plot beats are. You measure it by how it works on screen. I mean, look at the actual film Dune, it’s a campy mess with a story that’s both unintelligible unless you’ve read the book, and completely inconsistent with the book all at the same time.
Star Wars copied a bunch of stuff from all over, especially from Kurosawa films (who in turn was heavily influenced by John Ford and Frank Capra), but none of that really means anything. Kurosawa is great because he took ideas from other places and make them work in his stories. Lucas is great because in Star Wars he did the same thing.
The reason that the acting degraded over the three original films is because the actors were realising just how royally screwed they had been by Lucas's contracts.
Deathshead420 wrote:Any one that likes the prequels watch this guys vid's, The startrek ones are good too, never realized how bad some of my favorite series are.
LordofHats wrote:I doubt George Lucas ever read Dune.
Lucas has openly acknowledged it as an inspiration. The parallels have been talked about for years and years. Here's a list of just some of the similarities.
It's not the same story, but [insert Yoda voice] borrow heavily he did.
Mannahnin wrote:Ancient Literature? Maybe a smattering of Joseph Campbell, but a lot more old movies and pulps. Check out Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress" while you're at it, if you want to meet Leia's predecessor, as well as R2 and 3PO's.
Yeah, Lucas borrowed from all over. And y'know, that's okay...is anything truly original?
The issue for me is how as Lucas' ego has grown, it seems like he's been more and more willing to embrace high-falutin' notions like that he "tapped into ancient myths," rather than just borrowing from other filmmakers and authors.
Andrew1975 wrote:There is all kinds of inspiration from ancient literature in star wars, plus plenty of pulp fiction (the genre not the actual movie), a touch from westerns and yes Kurosawa......but no dune.
Desert planet, spice mines... Lots of WWII references in Star Wars too.
sebster wrote:Star Wars really was an exceptional story. The reason it doesn't feel so amazing now is because it's been copied over and over again.
The impact has also been lost. I mean, these days even people who have never seen the original trilogy know the plot. "I am your father" was a bomb that could only be felt once.
Which is why I have carefully shielded my daughter from all Star Wars until she is old enough to appreciate the feeling of that bomb!
Edit: The long version of the Dune movie (which is not available anymore that I am aware of) was awesome! I would pay good money for it.
Henners91 wrote: Sure we get a nice CGI fight at the end but up till then it's Lucas-tries-to-do-romance.
Did we watch the same movie? The duel in AotC was the worst of all the films? And for that to have followed the Duel in TPM
was even crazier. Obi/Qui-Gon/Maul was very physical and intense. even with the stupid random force field high jinx. The one in AotC
looked like 2 actors swinging flashlights infront of themselves, just out of camera view. WEAK!
The Battle for Geonosis was what I was referring to
The people decry the crap dialogue in the prequels as if the dialogue in the original trilogy was on par with Shakespearian sonnets.
Got news for you folks, the dialogue in ALL of the movies is equally dire. Even the actors said so ("You can write this crap, George, but you can't make people say it.").
All in all, there is almost enough good bits from all 6 movies to make one good one.
George understands the BUSINESS of making movies. This is how he got rich. Merchandising and farming out his stuff to other directors/production companies for a fee (THX was developed because he didn't want to pay Dolby Labs - like everyone else did - to use their surround sound system.)
chromedog wrote:The people decry the crap dialogue in the prequels as if the dialogue in the original trilogy was on par with Shakespearian sonnets.
Actually no one is making that comparison. There is a whole myriad of levels between prequel gakky and Shakespeare. The original movies dialogue was better, if for no other reason there was input on it from the other people involved. Just being serviceable dialogue is still a step above the prequel dialogue.
The problem with prequels is that its all a bunch of green screened garbage with no character to it. Its just a bunch of CGI garbage without any of the character that the first films had. The final fight in ROTS was so boring,fake and other bad things when compared to any of the lightsaber duels in the original trilogy.
<friendly moderation note; some pejoratives are unacceptable for use on Dakka --Janthkin>
Bleak_Fantasy wrote:The problem with prequels is that its all a bunch of green screened garbage with no character to it. Its just a bunch of CGI garbage without any of the character that the first films had. The final fight in ROTS was so boring,fake and other bad things when compared to any of the lightsaber duels in the original trilogy.
Agreed. Compare it to ESB's big fight. Dark, foreboding, real atmosphere. ROTS just went on and on and on and on and on and on. Oh look they're fighting all around. oh lok they zapped each other at the same time. Oh look now they're fighting with the rig going down. Oh look now they are balancing on robots or some such and still fighting. Oh look Obi's on the ground and babbling some more AND SUDDENLY ANAKIN'S GETS MURDERIZED. er....ok....
Compare the fights of ROTJ and TPM. When Luke loses it he just starts beating down on Vader like the bitch owes him money. When Qui-Gon Jinn gets killed Obi-Wan just continues to fight Darth Maul in the lame choreographed fashion. Emotion and Character are so lacking, thats why I just bought the original trilogy on blu ray and not the complete set. Hopefully after Lucas dies we can get someone to make a real prequel trilogy.
Bleak_Fantasy wrote:Compare the fights of ROTJ and TPM. When Luke loses it he just starts beating down on Vader like the bitch owes him money. When Qui-Gon Jinn gets killed Obi-Wan just continues to fight Darth Maul in the lame choreographed fashion. Emotion and Character are so lacking, thats why I just bought the original trilogy on blu ray and not the complete set. Hopefully after Lucas dies we can get someone to make a real prequel trilogy.
Well it's also part of the Jedi training of controlling your emotions that luke lacked which is why he goes off. The problem with the prequels was not just that the dialogue was bad, but that it was all done on green screen sitting on couches, or just strolling down halls, seriously look at it they are on couches like half the movie.
gorgon wrote:Lucas has openly acknowledged it as an inspiration. The parallels have been talked about for years and years. Here's a list of just some of the similarities.
That list is pretty weak, mate. The name similarities and references to spice do a bit to establish Dune as being in Lucas’s mind when he started thinking of Star Wars, but that’s all. The plot structure, moods and themes are entirely different, something your link straight up admits.
Yeah, Lucas borrowed from all over. And y'know, that's okay...is anything truly original?
Yeah, nothing is original. What matters is if what you’re doing with it stands as its own thing. Star Wars obviously does.
The issue for me is how as Lucas' ego has grown, it seems like he's been more and more willing to embrace high-falutin' notions like that he "tapped into ancient myths," rather than just borrowing from other filmmakers and authors.
I’m not so sure it’s ego as much as constraint over his process. Filmmakers hate the idea of producers and financiers ordering re-writes of their script, but as much as the filmmakers may love his script, rewrites really are necessary to throw out the junk scenes. The most telling bit comes from the way in which the force was described in the early script;
“One hundred thousand years in the past, a holy man called The Skywalker became aware of a powerful energy field which he believed influenced the destiny of all living creatures…The “Force of Others”. After much study, he was able to know the force, and it communicated with him. He came to see things in a new way. His “aura” and powers grew very strong. The Skywalker brought a new life to the people of his system, and became one of the founders of the Republic Galactica. The Force has two halves, the Ashla (good) and the Bogan, or para-Force (evil). The Skywalker knew that weaker beings could be seduced by the Bogan. Therefore, he entrusted the secret of The Force only to his twelve children, and they in turn passed on the knowledge only to their children, who became known as the “Jedi Bendu of the Ashla”: “the servants of the force”. The respected Jedi were the most powerful warriors in the Universe. For a hundred thousand years, generations of Jedi Bendu knights learned the ways of the mysterious Force of Others, and acted as the guardians of peace and justice in the Republic. There were once several hundred Jedi families. The Republic spread throughout the galaxy, encompassing over a million worlds.”
Compared to the final draft;
“Well, the Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy
field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us.
It binds the galaxy together.”
That second piece of writing is actually good, and Lucas wrote it, but only after years of working with his script and working with people like Copolla that really knew film, refining his ideas down to focus in on what’s actually good.
That process didn’t take place with the prequels, and it shows. Hell, the first draft of AotC was completed just days before principal shooting began.
chromedog wrote:The people decry the crap dialogue in the prequels as if the dialogue in the original trilogy was on par with Shakespearian sonnets.
Got news for you folks, the dialogue in ALL of the movies is equally dire. Even the actors said so ("You can write this crap, George, but you can't make people say it.").
The dialogue has a strangely formal, awkward style to it in every movie, that’s true. But dialogue is only one part of a script, and the quality of the Star Wars script isn’t in what’s said, but how little is said, and how little it matters, because the structure of the story is so well refined.
George understands the BUSINESS of making movies. This is how he got rich.
Also because Star Wars is among the highest grossing and most popular movies of all time. And don’t forget he stumbled into the merchandising goldmine of Star Wars because he wasn’t happy with planned advertising schemes, so he thought he could print off a load of t-shirts to build word of mouth.
Bleak_Fantasy wrote:Compare the fights of ROTJ and TPM. When Luke loses it he just starts beating down on Vader like the bitch owes him money. When Qui-Gon Jinn gets killed Obi-Wan just continues to fight Darth Maul in the lame choreographed fashion. Emotion and Character are so lacking, thats why I just bought the original trilogy on blu ray and not the complete set. Hopefully after Lucas dies we can get someone to make a real prequel trilogy.
I agree that Obi-Wan McGregor in TPM is fine; he's disciplined. You can still see a little bit of passion/higher energy level after Qui-Gonn dies, but he keeps his cool because he's been well-trained to keep his cool. The fights in TPM still have good character and story, much like the ones in the original movies. As Dogma pointed out, that's in large part because they were still using a good fight coreographer. AotC and RotS are lacking this, I agree.
While the prequels are not great films, they are going to rather entertaining to see in 3D. Avatar was very predictable and boring but the 3D made for a great movie experience and I am sure the Star Wars films will fallow suit.
"I am your father" was a bomb that could only be felt once.
Yeah, and as a ten year old sitting in the family room with my dad watching his VHS copy of SWIT. fething. LEVELED. ME. I still remember the feeling of it, the shock on my face. The goofy grin on my dad's. I don't care how many times I've heard it since I still remember how it felt the first time and it was awesome.
sebster wrote:Star Wars really was an exceptional story. The reason it doesn't feel so amazing now is because it's been copied over and over again.
Cannot be said enough. It's not that Star Wars isn't well written, it's that it's been ripped off so many times by so many uncreative hacks that what a revolution it was in cinema has been diluted. When this movie came out NO ONE had seen anything like it. How many movies do you know of now a days that had people watching it two or three times in a row on the same day?
Any one that likes the prequels watch this guys vid's, The startrek ones are good too, never realized how bad some of my favorite series are.
http://redlettermedia.com
There's a lot of nostalgia and hope that make people ignore the flaws in a series they like. Let's face it, for most Trekkies any Trek movie gets an automatic +3 on a 1 to 10 scale. Of course that means V and X are both still 3's even to Trekkies. RLM does disect the prequels incredibly well. Even if you like the prequels it will give you a lot of food for thought. And the way he makes some fans flip right the feth out is amusing. A guy wrote a 100+ page rebuttal to RLM's Phantom Menace video. You wanna know how good it is? Ebert was sick of people talking about Phantom Menace but someone got him to watch RLM's vid about it, and he loved it. A professional movie critic loves the guy's analysis.
The only thing he could do to vindicate himself is release the original theatrical release on DVD or blu-ray. Which won't happen.
He's too invested in the edits to do it. It's funny, Lucas is usually all about the money but he's so entrenched in a "them vs me" with his own FANS that he won't release that and rake in the cash he would simply because it would be admitting that people HATE his special editions. Good lord, if he actually made more off the theatrical release on DVD and Blu-ray than he did off the Special Editions, well it'd likely kill him.
Agreed. Compare it to ESB's big fight. Dark, foreboding, real atmosphere. ROTS just went on and on and on and on and on and on. Oh look they're fighting all around. oh lok they zapped each other at the same time. Oh look now they're fighting with the rig going down. Oh look now they are balancing on robots or some such and still fighting. Oh look Obi's on the ground and babbling some more AND SUDDENLY ANAKIN'S GETS MURDERIZED. er....ok....
There's so much subtext to the ESB fight. Vader never really seems to take it all that seriously. He's just sort of wading in there, laughing at this kid as he flails around like he's even got a chance. Luke starts off all cocky and in less than 60 seconds he's on his heels and then running like a scared child. Look at the confident way he strides towards Vader at the start. Contrast that to the way he's doing his best to get away from him at the end. Then there's the casual way that Vader starts to rip the room apart to chuck it at Luke. Luke never even imagined that was going to happen. The ESB fight has them actually cross lightsabers six, maybe seven times in the whole thing? Yet there's so much more atmosphere, so much more substance to it than any one of the prequels managed in their entire run time. The RotS fight, I won't lie, in the theatres I was amazed by it. It's watching two Jedi in their prime really, truly, trying to fething kill each other and pulling out all the stops. On subsequent viewings... it's all flash and no substance. By the time they are Erol Flynning each other you realize Lucas wasn't trying to say anything with the fight scene, he's just having two people wailing on each other. By the time Anakin actually loses you just want the damn thing over already. If they'd cut out the middle 70% of that fight it would be better just for that. With a talented director it could have been amazing. He could have communicated Obi-wan's despair at fighting his friend, his regret at doing it, even have Obi reluctant at first and Anakin getting the upper hand. We could have seen Obi finally realize that his friend is no more and that the only thing he can do is end it. We'd have seen Anakin's rage, how he's given into the dark side, and turned on his friend. Maybe even seen some of his own despair and some regret if he realizes what's happening. Finally when the fight ended we'd have seen Obi-Wan emotionally torn up by the sight of his friend laying there hacked up, to the point where he can't even stomach finishing him off. Instead... we get eight minutes of these two flailing away at each other and obi finally getting bored with the whole thing and walking off.
Hell, the first draft of AotC was completed just days before principal shooting began.
Does it ever show. That movie more than any other left me with the feeling they were shooting a first draft. Not until Dark of the Moon came along and topped it.
George Spiggott wrote:One would have thought that Cuba Gooding Jr. would have told Lucas about the last one. He's in both Red Tails and The Tuskegee Airmen film.
Cuba Gooding Junior has a very short memory. It comes from years of trying to forget all the crap movies he has made. How does he even get gigs anymore?
'shudder'
Haha, it's from Attack of the clones
I am sure there was still a chain of command to follow...
