The latest codexes has all been seemingly stacking up invulns. First, we had the OT 3++ of the Storm Shields, in Codex: Sm. then the DE got themselves 2+ invulns, together with GK. Then the necrons get 4+ that bounces back shots.


This really ruins my experience of the game. The 4++ on the Lychguard is possible to get through; a couple of Leman Russ kills them easily.
The 2++ of the GK works only in CC, so Vindicators is as good as ever.
The 2++ of the DE works only until it fails once, so massed volleys can got through that as well.

And then we have the storm shields......


Massed 3++ and 2+ saves that keeps the squad alive until they can strike back with S8 PW.
Horrible.

Take Chaos Terminators. These mentlegen are the elite of a warband, and should be able to match other terminators.
No. For they can't have Storm Shields. A tense, exciting fight, turns into a one-sided massacre for the cheaper side.

I do not want to go lash prince+vindicator, but that seems my only choice.


Make storm shields give a +1 to invul, or a 5+ if the squad doesn't have any. It's balanced, so we do not need to change any points cost, and it changes an unbalanced obvious choice into a viable unit, as well as making the game more exciting.

Please note that i do not ask for any whining ("meh, another SS hate thread")

I honestly wouldn't mind this, I'd like it to be like Fantasy, 3++ ward saves can be attained, but they are quite rare. As a Space Marine player (well, Black Templars), I'd be fine with it, 2+ 4++ was enough for me for a long time.

I think they should only work in close combat.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I think they should only work in close combat.

This. Storm Shields were 4++ for a long time in previous editions and nobody took them. Keeping it 3++ but in CC only is a good trade-off, I think.

Wait...So I sould only be able to use my shield when the enemy is in my face? if someone is shooting at me I can't block it with my shield? I disagree with this, storm shields should work for both range and combat saves.

I don't see a to change them, as a marine player and from looking at plenty of battle reports, it is easy to see how storm shields are not the most badass things out there. For real, Termis.s are great but can go down just like everything else. Hit them with enough attacks and sooner or later they go down.

I would say a 5 points increase would make up for it though, with that full termie unit being 50 more points, it seems less of a no-brainer to take them..

No you shouldnt be able to use it when your being shot at. Sure maybe small arms, if its in your forward arc. But not explosions. If a demolisher round catches your squad, how it the shield going to protect you?

Ravendove wrote:
This. Storm Shields were 4++ for a long time in previous editions and nobody took them. Keeping it 3++ but in CC only is a good trade-off, I think.

But they were 4++ in CC only, weren't they?

You could make them 4++ everywhere, that would be reasonably balanced. Alternatively, check out the ideas in the 'Terminators and their Saves' thread that was active a little while ago. This same issue was discussed there.

You have to think of ss/th termis is the context of the codex, with out them what else do sm have that can have a chance against other elite cc units? Or in the case of gk any of there choices?

It doesnt matter whether you can hide behind the SS or not. The physical structure of the shield houses energy field projectors. So you could wear it on your back and you should still be giving you a 3+ invul save. If you dont like TH/SS terminators, shoot them with mass fire and watch them fail 2+ saves, or dehorse them and ignore them. I play tau, CSM, GK, CWE and dark eldar, and I have NEVER once complained about TH/SS terminators. I charge them on my terms, shoot their transports and smash them with weight of dice. I could care less if they are 200 points for 5 of them (although the 5 point increase was the best suggestion given.

A problem of a D6 system is there isn't too much room for slight variations. BS 3 vs BS 4 is a huge difference. So too the difference between 3++ and 4++ saves. I would agree that 4++ overall saves would make sense from a game balance perspective but then it fails to be "different"

Look at it this way:

A standard terminator: 2+ 5++
A MoT terminator 2+ 4++
A GK terminator 2+ 5++ (4++ in HTH)
A GK terminator with maul 2+ 2++

So should a terminator with SS be superior to a MoT chaos terminator? Potentially yes. That puts a terminator with SS at a 3++ save.

Now comes the problem: At a cost of 40 why would I ever take a standard terminator? The answer is never as 2+(3++) is way too superior to 2+(5++) so now I need something to offset the survival imbalance... Powerfist vs Thunderhammer: A wash as far as S and I but the TH offers some stunning advantages. Hmmm TH vs PF is advantage TH. So now we come to the one differentiator:
The standard terminator gets 2 S4 shots out to 24".

Now situationally, you may find a value to the stormbolter fire but overwhelmingly, the TH/SS termie is so far superior it wins.

My conclusion, is that the ss should be reduced to a 4++ save as that will restore some balance to the choices. As it stands you would have to make stormbolters S6 and probably rending to make me even twitch about selecting a standard termie over an assault termie with a 3++ save.

d6 systems do limit slight variation, but point costs can adjust for that.

It's not hard to see that TH/SS is too good. No one takes normal terminators, and no one takes lightning claw terminators.

I have no issue leaving them with a 3++, but they should be priced accordingly. A 3++ is really useful - clearly moreso than either 2 S4 shots, or re-rollable wounds. It should cost more.

Redbeard wrote:d6 systems do limit slight variation, but point costs can adjust for that.

It's not hard to see that TH/SS is too good. No one takes normal terminators, and no one takes lightning claw terminators.

I have no issue leaving them with a 3++, but they should be priced accordingly. A 3++ is really useful - clearly moreso than either 2 S4 shots, or re-rollable wounds. It should cost more.

But if SS/TH Termies cost more, then no-one will take them because they won't be ABLE to take them. 5 TH/SS Termies in a Land Raider cost 450 points already. It's a HUGE price for what you get.

So, counter-proposal; make the other options cost LESS, instead.

So make them cost 500 points in a Landraider. An Ork Nob squad in a Battlewagon can easily cost more than that, and they're less survivable in some ways!

It wouldn't be so terrible if it were a basic Marine with SS, or a Guardsman with SS even- then it would just be 3++ is their best save, like a Marine that can save everything. It's the combination of 2+ against almost everything, and a 3++ for those few things that can pen Termie armour that makes it unbalanced. I would be fine if it cost 5 more points- that's seemingly the standard cost for Invuln saves these days.

The problem with costing less is then you stomp over all the other options. Much like my feeling that codex point costs have been all screwed up by the change years ago of ork boyz from 9 to 6. So say you reduce the cost to 35 for standard termies. What does that do to sternguard? What does that do to GK terminators who are troop choices? What does that do to chaos terminators who are "discounted" 10 points for not having a power fist? Do you want CSM termies at 25 each?

I say reduce the save to 4++ OR increase the cost of TH/SS termies OR reduce the options so you can only substitute 1 of 3 LCs for TH/SS or something like that.

DAaddict wrote:The problem with costing less is then you stomp over all the other options. Much like my feeling that codex point costs have been all screwed up by the change years ago of ork boyz from 9 to 6. So say you reduce the cost to 35 for standard termies. What does that do to sternguard? What does that do to GK terminators who are troop choices? What does that do to chaos terminators who are "discounted" 10 points for not having a power fist? Do you want CSM termies at 25 each?

I say reduce the save to 4++ OR increase the cost of TH/SS termies OR reduce the options so you can only substitute 1 of 3 LCs for TH/SS or something like that.

Why should you change the cost of CSM Termies at all? They're a different unit, in a different codex, with a different role. If they are to be recosted, that should be done in relation to the units in the CSM Codex; comparing single units across codexes doesn't work. You compare codexes as a whole to each other, and do unit comparisons within codexes.

Same goes for GK Termies, but even MORE so. GK Termies have NFS, psychic powers, and a bunch of different options. Different unit, different role, and different points costs are not only acceptable but actually desirable.

Sternguard, IMO, need to be recosted or have their abilities changed anyway. I never see them played.

People take lightning claw termis never 5 but having an extra attack and striking at I4 is important. Get chargers by 10 shrike players and you will be happy to have some LC attacks.

GW must of relised this as the BA Codez has them at +5pts, if its bothering you that much, pay the extra 5pt for normal marines, but to be hones, a 2+ 5++ unit with 4 pwer weapon attacks with some wound rerolls is pretty epic, Termies with LC arn't all that bad considering, and as previously mentioned, just shoot the damn things, I've had 3 SS/TH termies die from gun drone fire

Ecstasy in Service wrote:Wait...So I sould only be able to use my shield when the enemy is in my face? if someone is shooting at me I can't block it with my shield? I disagree with this, storm shields should work for both range and combat saves.

A shield, that's really basically a Buckler on Terminators, really isn't the easiest thing to block incoming projectiles with, it's not possible to react quick enough and it's coverage isn't large enough, it's value is in blocking enemy blows at close range against opponents you are facing that aren't coming as bursts of automatic fire moving at faster than the speed of sound or energy weapons at near lightspeed from any and all angles. Having it work only in CC makes sense from a logical perspective and a balance perspective, or just make it a flat 4+ against all attacks. The problem previously was that it was a 4+ that only worked in CC.

I don't see a to change them, as a marine player and from looking at plenty of battle reports, it is easy to see how storm shields are not the most badass things out there. For real, Termis.s are great but can go down just like everything else. Hit them with enough attacks and sooner or later they go down.

let me ask you this. Would you still take them as they are at 45pts? For most I'm sure the answer is yes. At 50pts? Again, I'm sure the answer is still most likely yes, at least given my experiences and most players I know. Given that, they're clearly overcapable and/or undercosted. They make any other Terminator unit pointless because of their survivability, and nobody enjoys playing against a unit that gets a 3+sv against railguns in the open.

3++ in combat 4++ out of combat seems alright to me.

They're just so better than the tactical equivalent...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

DAaddict wrote:The problem with costing less is then you stomp over all the other options. Much like my feeling that codex point costs have been all screwed up by the change years ago of ork boyz from 9 to 6. So say you reduce the cost to 35 for standard termies. What does that do to sternguard? What does that do to GK terminators who are troop choices? What does that do to chaos terminators who are "discounted" 10 points for not having a power fist? Do you want CSM termies at 25 each?

I say reduce the save to 4++ OR increase the cost of TH/SS termies OR reduce the options so you can only substitute 1 of 3 LCs for TH/SS or something like that.

Why should you change the cost of CSM Termies at all? They're a different unit, in a different codex, with a different role. If they are to be recosted, that should be done in relation to the units in the CSM Codex; comparing single units across codexes doesn't work. You compare codexes as a whole to each other, and do unit comparisons within codexes.

Same goes for GK Termies, but even MORE so. GK Termies have NFS, psychic powers, and a bunch of different options. Different unit, different role, and different points costs are not only acceptable but actually desirable.

Sternguard, IMO, need to be recosted or have their abilities changed anyway. I never see them played.

BS. At its core a unit should be about equivalent across codexes. Given a 2+ save and 5++ invulnerable. You should see the cost be about the same across codexes or you will tend to see the idiocy of one codex over another. Long fangs vs havocs vs devastators comes to mind. So if I make CSM terminator 25 pts each and balance that within the codex so it is a viable option, you don't think that 40 pt per terminator vanilla/BT/DA/BA are going to cry foul or suddenly move to CSM? I don't think so.

If you were right, then I would expect to see as many dark angel players as any other marine. If their codex - viewed in a vacuum- balanced? I would say it is. Is it balanced in view of all the other codexes that are out there? I think not and that is proven by the number of dark angel armies you see out there. The renaissance of the DA came with the ruling that CML and Typhoons get ROF 2 and that their stormshields are now 3++. I still don't see any DA army with drop pods with BS2 or landraiders with idiot savant machine spirits. I don't see DA tacticals hitting the table with overpriced razorbacks.

Certainly the first job of a codex writer is to make a codex balanced within but he sure as heck better be thinking how his codex fits into the puzzle of the other codexes out there.

(Unless of course your goal is to depress every other army owner out there and to boost sales of everything else)

Balance a codex with a marine costed at 10 points. Internally you may have a varied and option-filled army. View it in light of the other codexes out there, and everyone will stop playing the other races because 10 pt marines will tip the game totally in favor of marines.

BTW, when we are talking vanilla marines, I see a LOT of sternguard. They are more cost effective than devastators and from a pure ant-personnel standpoint superior. The issue is that I don't see a lot of vanilla marines. Most of those now play SW, BA or GK.

You missed the part where I said "Compare codexes as a whole to each other".

A Codex with basic Space Marines costed at 10 points and every other price built off of that would be unbalanced, yes. That is a codex problem, not a unit problem. Individual units, however, need to be costed against each OTHER, within the same codex; after that is done, THEN the codex as a whole can be compared to other codexes, and if things are generally undercosted, that can be corrected.

A codex with 10-point Space marines might BE balanced; if, for instance, that squad got no free flamer or missile launchers, or if their support units such as Devastator equivalents and tanks were very expensive. That might be perfectly viable; you would have to balance the CODEX against other CODEXES. If one unit (Space Marines) is cheap, then other units should be expensive; or the cheap unit should have very expensive options and wargear. There are plenty of ways to do it; insisting that the same statline have exactly the same price in every codex is, in my eyes, a flawed method that leads to a great deal of boring same-old, same-old. Some codexes SHOULD pay less for the exact same unit, and others should pay less for a different unit, and some should have the option of taking a unit that no other codex can take at all. The issue is to balance the ARMIES against each other as a whole, not to balance the individual units.

BeRzErKeR wrote:You missed the part where I said "Compare codexes as a whole to each other".

A Codex with basic Space Marines costed at 10 points and every other price built off of that would be unbalanced, yes. That is a codex problem, not a unit problem. Individual units, however, need to be costed against each OTHER, within the same codex; after that is done, THEN the codex as a whole can be compared to other codexes, and if things are generally undercosted, that can be corrected.

A codex with 10-point Space marines might BE balanced; if, for instance, that squad got no free flamer or missile launchers, or if their support units such as Devastator equivalents and tanks were very expensive. That might be perfectly viable; you would have to balance the CODEX against other CODEXES. If one unit (Space Marines) is cheap, then other units should be expensive; or the cheap unit should have very expensive options and wargear. There are plenty of ways to do it; insisting that the same statline have exactly the same price in every codex is, in my eyes, a flawed method that leads to a great deal of boring same-old, same-old. Some codexes SHOULD pay less for the exact same unit, and others should pay less for a different unit, and some should have the option of taking a unit that no other codex can take at all. The issue is to balance the ARMIES against each other as a whole, not to balance the individual units.

My point is that reducing the cost of terminators is a risky thing. You can say that 35 pt terminators and 40 pt terminators with TH/SS solves that issue. (Truthfully I don't think so.) If you reduce the cost of a terminator how does it compare to other options. So 205 for 5 termies with a CML - does that compare well with 5 sternguard with 2 HW? Does it leave a squadron of typhoons or predator as a viable choice? These are issues so how do you address them? Leave the now overcosted predator (just as an example) or do you now reduce its cost? Before you know it you have a good comparative codex but an OP codex when judged against all the other codexes.

The other issue is making termies cost 40 in one codex and 35 in another... Let's say for a moment that they target the new Dark Angel codex for an update. Say they reduce the base cost to 35 for terminators. Say they leave ravenwing cost at 35 for a base but allow them A 2 to their profile and power weapon options. Say they leave the cost of SM at 15 but they reduce the cost of SW to 10 for plasma and allow you to take two special weapons. Is that enough to bring DA to a viable state? Is it going to make DA THE marine codex choice?

Internally a codex needs to be balanced or you end up with one or two instant "idiot" builds where you can field anything but say they have undercosted something so much it makes it THE choice to play. Externally the codex has to be balanced also - on that we agree. My concern is that reducing the cost of terminators seems the WRONG way to do it. If a 40 pt terminator feels about right it should NOT be reduced.

A TH/SS terminator is an "idiot" choice when it comes to weighing which terminators are better to field. Why is that? They cost the same and 3++ saves are so superior to 5++ saves as to make it silly to suggest that even giving up the 2 S4 shots at range is idiotic to consider as an equal. Raise the cost to +5 for TH/SS and perhaps you will make it right. Raise it +10 points and guaranteed you are going to suddenly make a standard terminator make more sense. So it is somehere in there.

DAaddict wrote:

My point is that reducing the cost of terminators is a risky thing. You can say that 35 pt terminators and 40 pt terminators with TH/SS solves that issue. (Truthfully I don't think so.) If you reduce the cost of a terminator how does it compare to other options. So 205 for 5 termies with a CML - does that compare well with 5 sternguard with 2 HW? Does it leave a squadron of typhoons or predator as a viable choice? These are issues so how do you address them? Leave the now overcosted predator (just as an example) or do you now reduce its cost? Before you know it you have a good comparative codex but an OP codex when judged against all the other codexes.

That's certainly a valid point. The point I'm making is that lowering the cost of one does not have particularly greater effects than raising the cost of the other.

Consider; the TH/SS Termie is, essentially, the ONLY dedicated assault unit in the vanilla Marine codex. Assault Marines aren't fighty or resilient enough, and Vanguard Veterans are far too expensive for how effective they are. Vanilla Marines are not spoiled for choice when it comes to assault units. It seems to me, then, that the prospect of making their one truly effective assault unit MORE expensive should be avoided.

I also have another assertion to make; if TH/SS Termies weren't an option, you would see far fewer Termies overall. Terminators do not put out enough shooting to make it worth their current points cost, particularly since they can only have one CML/assault cannon per 5 models. Shooty Termies die farily easily once they are in small-arms range, so you're effectively paying 230 points for two missile launchers. Devastators are cheaper than that, and they're STILL overcosted.

I would argue then, that Assault Terminators do not need an absolute nerf, they need a nerf RELATIVE to shooty Terminators; and shooty Terminators need an absolute buff. There's two ways I see to do that; reducing the cost of shooty Terminators to 35 ppm, or allowing them to take two CML/assault cannons regardless of unit size.

DAaddict wrote:
The other issue is making termies cost 40 in one codex and 35 in another... Let's say for a moment that they target the new Dark Angel codex for an update. Say they reduce the base cost to 35 for terminators. Say they leave ravenwing cost at 35 for a base but allow them A 2 to their profile and power weapon options. Say they leave the cost of SM at 15 but they reduce the cost of SW to 10 for plasma and allow you to take two special weapons. Is that enough to bring DA to a viable state? Is it going to make DA THE marine codex choice?

Internally a codex needs to be balanced or you end up with one or two instant "idiot" builds where you can field anything but say they have undercosted something so much it makes it THE choice to play. Externally the codex has to be balanced also - on that we agree. My concern is that reducing the cost of terminators seems the WRONG way to do it. If a 40 pt terminator feels about right it should NOT be reduced.

I've never played Dark Angels; my answer to this has to be that I don't know. But I reiterate; based on my experiences fighting AGAINST Terminators, I think TH/SS Termies need a relative nerf (so much better than other Termies as to be a no-brainer choice) and shooty Terminators need an absolute buff, as they are outclassed in terms of firepower by any other shooty unit in the Codex.

However, in the big picture, do Vanilla Marines need a powerful Assaulty unit for cheap? Marines, despite what the fluff and fanon claims, cannot be great at everything. 'Nilla Marines are a gunline, mid-range army with a couple of tricks and some decent support units.

Blood Angels are the Assaulty Marines

Space Wolves are Assaultish Marines with great support.

Dark Angels are the Terminator Marines.


Orks don't shoot accurately.
Dark Eldar don't survive protracted battles.
Tau can't fight CC.

That's Codex Balance. Basic Marines can doubletap with a 2 outta 3 hit ratio, and survive most charges. Terminators can do better, being able to doublefire with a 2 outta 3 hit ratio and initiate the assault, while being damn near unkillable by anything that isn't a dedicated assault squad. Yes, you can take them down with volume of fire, but they save 5/6 basic wounds, and 1/3 of any Power Weapon wounds- and before that, you still have to go through WS4 T4. Not great, but above average- same with Bolters of all stripes. When you make it so that you pay the same price for a unit that has Str8 Power Weapon hits, saves 5/6 normal wounds and 2/3 Power Weapon wounds, you start getting OP- even if they loose their shooting, they should still be more expensive- it's 5 points to give a Meganob a one-use weapon, while effectively halving his Ballistic Skill, so why not a +5 point cost for a Storm Shield?

They don't get a good assault unit for cheap. They get a good anti-deathstar unit for very, very expensive.

Assault Terminators without a transport are absolute rubbish. Yes, they take a lot of shots to die. . . but those shots are available. For 40 points a model, it's worth spending a turn of shooting from a squad of Boyz or a unit of Plague Marines or a Tactical squad to down a model or two. It isn't that hard to kill them, really, and they come in small units. Footslogging they're just meat, so they need a (itself overpriced) Land Raider. . . which means the Marine player ends up paying 450 points for 5 Termies and a large metal box. It's by no means a good deal.

Codex Marines are NOT a competitive army. They're by no means top-tier. The only thing that has kept them from being one of the worse armies in the game, down alongside Tau, is Assault Terminators. I do not believe that nerfing Assault Marines is the proper way to deal with them; I think that buffing the alternative would be much preferable.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
That's certainly a valid point. The point I'm making is that lowering the cost of one does not have particularly greater effects than raising the cost of the other.

Of course it does. If you lower the price of a reasonably priced unit in order to make it compete with another underpriced unit, you're just shifting the problem, not solving it.

Consider; the TH/SS Termie is, essentially, the ONLY dedicated assault unit in the vanilla Marine codex. Assault Marines aren't fighty or resilient enough, and Vanguard Veterans are far too expensive for how effective they are.

This entire sentence is so entirely wrong that I don't know where to go with it. Assault marines are a perfectly reasonable assault unit that does just fine against other reasonable assault units, but loses to deathstar units. Okay, no problem there. Vanguard are an elite assault unit that can hold their own against many other elite assault units and will go through non-dedicated assault units easily. They're also overpriced.

You don't argue that they're not an assault unit because they're overpriced, and, their existence disproves the idea that TH/SS termies are the only assault option in the codex. In addition, as we're (meaninglessly - it's not like these discussions will actually change anything) talking about relative point costs in the marine codex, saying that one thing has to be underpriced because another is overpriced is a foolish argument. Why not propose that both be priced appropriately and acknowledge that there are several different viable options rules-wise that would all be just fine if their prices were corrected.

Vanilla Marines are not spoiled for choice when it comes to assault units. It seems to me, then, that the prospect of making their one truly effective assault unit MORE expensive should be avoided.

I also have another assertion to make; if TH/SS Termies weren't an option, you would see far fewer Termies overall. Terminators do not put out enough shooting to make it worth their current points cost, particularly since they can only have one CML/assault cannon per 5 models. Shooty Termies die farily easily once they are in small-arms range, so you're effectively paying 230 points for two missile launchers. Devastators are cheaper than that, and they're STILL overcosted.

So now you're arguing that half of the marine infantry in the marine codex are overpriced? (you've mentioned Devastators, terminators, assault marines, and vangaurd, leaving sternguard, assault marines, and tacticals). Perhaps they're not overpriced, perhaps they're all reasonably priced, and the failure has been in the underpricing of competing options (Long Fangs) in subsequent codexes.

I would argue then, that Assault Terminators do not need an absolute nerf, they need a nerf RELATIVE to shooty Terminators; and shooty Terminators need an absolute buff. There's two ways I see to do that; reducing the cost of shooty Terminators to 35 ppm, or allowing them to take two CML/assault cannons regardless of unit size.

I disagree that shooty terminators need any adjustment at all, other than not to have to compete against underpriced TH/SS terminators. 40 points per model for a man with a 2+/5+, powerfist and stormbolter is quite reasonable.

BeRzErKeR wrote:They don't get a good assault unit for cheap. They get a good anti-deathstar unit for very, very expensive.

Given that 200 points of TH/SS terminators can handle their own against 500 points of deathstar units, like nob bikers, I'd call that cheap.

Assault Terminators without a transport are absolute rubbish.

I've seen any number of top tournament players use a squad of 10 TH/SS guys on foot, and win plenty of competitive games with them. Given that their only transport choices are land raiders, which in the current metagame are meltagun bait, I'd say they're more effective on foot than in a 250 point transport that gets taken out by 100 points of guardsman without batting an eyelid.

I suppose you know better though.

Codex Marines are NOT a competitive army.

Try telling that to Ben Mohile. Or DarthDiggler. Why should anyone here buy this line you're selling?

They're by no means top-tier. The only thing that has kept them from being one of the worse armies in the game, down alongside Tau, is Assault Terminators.

If by top-tier, you mean 'idiot-button', then you're right. Codex marines require some thought to play. There aren't a lot of overpriced options. On the other hand, good generals keep doing well using them because they're a codex with the tools to be successful. They can bring the assault to the opponent when the opponent outguns them, and they can shoot up an enemy that's going to out-assault them. They don't have a lot of units that can win a game on their own, but they have a lot of cheap answers that prevent their opponent's game-winner unit from doing what it wants to do. TH/SS fit into that, as they're the marine codexes answer to deathstars. But they'd still manage to do that if they cost a few points more.

On the other hand, if they cost a few points more, those players looking to simply ram an assault unit down their opponent's throat in a land raider might consider some of the other reasonably priced units in the codex.

Personally I dislike the gameplay mechanics of a 3++ save let alone in the hands of a cost effective unit like assault terminators. A 2+/3++ save also including a thunder hammer are too good IMO for 40pts. I also dislike how TH/SS terminators changed the way assault units work in 5th (if it wasn’t a TH/SS or could handle TH/SS you didn’t take them). DAaddict has definitely hit the nail on the head in the sense that TH/SS terminators are somewhat an idiot choice at the moment which in turn overshadows other units.

Personally I reckon the +5pts is not the best way to approach this. BA terminators at the moment cost 45pts and from what I gather, the +5pts hasn’t been much of a balancing deterrent (they’re still an auto include). Buffing other units to be as powerful is not a good idea either as outside of the inter-codex balance issues, the codex marine structure is more or less balanced anyway and making certain units stronger would upset this balance (making stronger tactical terminators wouldn’t make people stop selecting TH/SS as they’re still a better buy).

At the moment, the +1Inv save is the best solution I’ve heard so far. Cost wise, the unit would still be worth their 40pts per model price tag as well as still being an ‘ard, effective unit. To make this solution “more complete” though I’d also put a price reduction on Vanguard Veterans to increase player choice when it comes to selecting a dedicated assault unit for a codex SM force.

Sorry... I completely disagree with increasing the cost of TH/SS Termies.

Personally, I think TH/SS are a solid, fairly priced unit. You see them often in Marine lists (I use a unit of 5 at 2K), but they are never a must-take. They are vulnerable to small arms fire and getting swamped by hordes. Yes, they eat enemy deathstars, but they also get destroyed by MSU. That's a pretty fair trade off. A unit that can be used but isn't ALWAYS used is probably a relatively balanced unit.

Compare half of the Vanilla Infantry to other, more recent armies--you quickly discover that while we get cheap TH/SS Termies, we are paying out the nose for everything else. Unless you want to retroactively reduce the cost of Vanilla Devestators, then I don't see the point in jacking up the price of TH/SS.

Shooty Terminators are rarely ever taken in the Vanilla codex not because TH/SS are underpriced, but because the shooty ones are overpriced for the role they fill (durable firesupport with the ability to bully units). I argue they compete more with a regular Tactical Squad than they do with a TH/SS squad. For the same price as 5 Shooty Terminators, you can get a pimped out Tactical Squad and transport. You get about the same amount of shooting, more bodies, a transport, and the ability to hold objectives. That's not a favorable comparison for the Terminators, which is why I don't think they get taken as much. Dropping the price of the CML/Assault Cannon would be much more effective at making Shooty Terminators more viable than nerfing the TH/SS variety. You make that upgrade close to free for every five Terminators, and then you have to actually think about which kind of Terminator you want to take.

Redbeard wrote:
Of course it does. If you lower the price of a reasonably priced unit in order to make it compete with another underpriced unit, you're just shifting the problem, not solving it.

And if you raise the price of a reasonably-priced unit in order to make its overcosted alternative look better by comparison, then you're creating a problem which didn't exist before, while still not solving the original problem.

Redbeard wrote:This entire sentence is so entirely wrong that I don't know where to go with it. Assault marines are a perfectly reasonable assault unit that does just fine against other reasonable assault units, but loses to deathstar units. Okay, no problem there. Vanguard are an elite assault unit that can hold their own against many other elite assault units and will go through non-dedicated assault units easily. They're also overpriced.

You don't argue that they're not an assault unit because they're overpriced, and, their existence disproves the idea that TH/SS termies are the only assault option in the codex. In addition, as we're (meaninglessly - it's not like these discussions will actually change anything) talking about relative point costs in the marine codex, saying that one thing has to be underpriced because another is overpriced is a foolish argument. Why not propose that both be priced appropriately and acknowledge that there are several different viable options rules-wise that would all be just fine if their prices were corrected.

All right, then allow me to rephrase; in my experience, based on playing games against codex Marines with Orks (several dozen times, at least) and CSM (perhaps 8-10 times), as well as playing (very few) games as codex marines myself, neither vanguard veterans nor assault marines are anything like effective as assault units, certainly not effective enough to be worth their points cost. Assault Marines do NOT do fine against 'other reasonable assault units'; they barely win combat against plain old Ork Boyz, even when charging, and Ork Boyz are anything but a deathstar. They barely even qualify as a bully unit, because even against a basic CSM squad they'll take almost as many casualties as they inflict, and against Plague Marines, another very common troops choice that does not qualify by any means as a deathstar, they may as well not have bothered to bring any model except a PF Sergeant. Assault Marines suck as assault troops. Their one and only saving grace is mobility, and that still isn't enough to rescue them. Honestly, my assessment of the skill of my opponent drops when I see Assault Marines across the table from me.

Vanguard Veterans are even worse. They have a few more attacks, and they CAN be kitted out as a respectable assault unit, but doing so is so expensive that I've honestly never seen anyone bother. Furthermore, they're too fragile to withstand any amount of shooting at all. They're a glass hammer, and the glass comes pre-cracked.

Redbeard wrote:
So now you're arguing that half of the marine infantry in the marine codex are overpriced? (you've mentioned Devastators, terminators, assault marines, and vangaurd, leaving sternguard, assault marines, and tacticals). Perhaps they're not overpriced, perhaps they're all reasonably priced, and the failure has been in the underpricing of competing options (Long Fangs) in subsequent codexes.

Yes. That is, indeed, what I'm arguing.

'Overpriced', 'underpriced' and 'reasonably priced' are entirely relative terms. Easily half the armies in the game get better units that do the same job for less points; that makes Space Marines overpriced. Changing one army to correct the relative expense is easier and, I would say, better for game balance than changing six or seven other army books to stay in balance with it. That's what I mean when I say 'overpriced'; they are at a relative disadvantage against a majority of competing armies, because the balance of the game has changed.

Redbeard wrote:
I disagree that shooty terminators need any adjustment at all, other than not to have to compete against underpriced TH/SS terminators. 40 points per model for a man with a 2+/5+, powerfist and stormbolter is quite reasonable.

Clearly it isn't, since nobody takes them. According to the only measure that actually matters, 40 points is too much to pay for a model with a 2+/5++, power fist, and storm bolter. Hell, look at CSM Terminators; they cost 40 points with a power fist, have only very slightly less firepower with combi-bolters as opposed to storm bolters, and are never taken without close-combat weapons (such as dual LCs) except for the purpose of Termicide. So even WITHOUT the competition of TH/SS Termies, 40 points seems to be too much.

Redbeard wrote:
Given that 200 points of TH/SS terminators can handle their own against 500 points of deathstar units, like nob bikers, I'd call that cheap.

If you are walking 5 Assault Terminators, and I am running a 500-point unit of Nob Bikers, I guarantee that the two units will NEVER engage in close combat unless I've already killed 3 of those Termies with shooting. If you're not walking them, on the other hand, you're actually talking about a 450 point unit of Assault Terminators which happen to have two lascannons attached; which is to say that even at the one job they are specifically designed for, Assault Terminators barely have a points advantage over a deathstar that's capable of fighting a much wider variety of units successfully, and still has the option to leave and go kill something else faster than the Termies can follow, even in their metal box.

Redbeard wrote:
I've seen any number of top tournament players use a squad of 10 TH/SS guys on foot, and win plenty of competitive games with them. Given that their only transport choices are land raiders, which in the current metagame are meltagun bait, I'd say they're more effective on foot than in a 250 point transport that gets taken out by 100 points of guardsman without batting an eyelid.

I suppose you know better though.

I don't 'know' anything. I am speaking from my own experience. I'll be the first to admit that I have not played against many top tournament players, and I can only talk about my local area; however, I can say that I'm puzzled as to how ten terminators on foot manage to get into combat without losing at least four or five to shooting on the way in. That's a 400 point footslogging unit, comprised of 10 1-wound models with a 2+ save against small arms; it might as well be wearing a big 'shoot me' sign.

The fact that a top-tier tournament player can win with a unit does not make it a good unit. It makes him a good general. Assault Terminators are an excellent unit, properly supported and transported; if they aren't, they're not. That doesn't mean a good player can't win using them, but it does mean that doing so will be a lot harder than it would have been otherwise.

Redbeard wrote:
Try telling that to Ben Mohile. Or DarthDiggler. Why should anyone here buy this line you're selling?

No reason. What I'm saying is based purely off of what I've seen on the table; and what I've seen, whenever Assault Terminators are run on foot, is them getting shot up turn after turn after turn, and finally reaching assault range with too few models to win. You may well have seen something different; ok. What that would seem to indicate, to me, is that there's a different metagame prevailing in our different areas. There's two game stores where I tend to play, maybe once a week or a little more often, and I consistently see Assault Terminators vaporizing as soon as they're on foot. Even in Land Raiders, they're practically one-shot-and-done unit, because they tend to die as soon as they win the assault. If you have a different experience, that's interesting.

Redbeard wrote:
If by top-tier, you mean 'idiot-button', then you're right. Codex marines require some thought to play. There aren't a lot of overpriced options. On the other hand, good generals keep doing well using them because they're a codex with the tools to be successful. They can bring the assault to the opponent when the opponent outguns them, and they can shoot up an enemy that's going to out-assault them. They don't have a lot of units that can win a game on their own, but they have a lot of cheap answers that prevent their opponent's game-winner unit from doing what it wants to do. TH/SS fit into that, as they're the marine codexes answer to deathstars. But they'd still manage to do that if they cost a few points more.

On the other hand, if they cost a few points more, those players looking to simply ram an assault unit down their opponent's throat in a land raider might consider some of the other reasonably priced units in the codex.

If by 'idiot-button' you mean Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights. . . then no, that's not what I mean. If you include Orks, Dark Eldar, and even Chaos Space Marines in 'idiot-button' then, well, we have a different perspective on the game.

Codex Marines require much more thought than the majority of the other armies in the game, to achieve a result that is only just as good. That's practically the definition of an inferior army. They don't have any cost-effective specialists, with the sole exception of Assault Terminators; they can do anything a little, but nothing WELL.They have all the tools for the job, but their screwdriver is about a quarter-inch too big and their hammer's head is loose.

Making Assault Terminators cost more would make the army worse. They're already not great, why do that to them? Making shooty Terminators either cheaper or more flexible, on the other hand, would have the same effect of providing a viable alternative to Assault Termies, while also making the army marginally better. What's the problem with that?

BeRzErKeR wrote:
All right, then allow me to rephrase; in my experience, based on playing games against codex Marines with Orks (several dozen times, at least) and CSM (a few times), as well as playing (very few) games as codex marines myself, neither vanguard veterans nor assault marines are anything like effective as assault units, certainly not effective enough to be worth their points cost. Assault Marines do NOT do fine against 'other reasonable assault units'; they barely win combat against plain old Ork Boyz, even when charging, and Ork Boyz are anything but a deathstar.

Really? As an ork player myself, I find that a unit of assault marines is something I don't want to fight with a unit of boyz, because, although I might eventually triumph, I'll be brought below combat effectiveness for the rest of the game. Run as I usually see them run, they're carrying a couple of flamers, which makes a mess of things to begin with, and outside of abnormal rolling, even without initial flamer attacks, they're going to win the first round of combat, adding in no-retreat wounds. On top of that, they cost less than a unit of 30 boyz.

Here's something I learned once that typically holds true; given units of similar nature, if you want to destroy one with minimal impact on the return, you need to hit it with three times the points. For assault marines vs boyz, they will absolutely destroy a unit of 10 boyz. Or 3 units of assault marines will wipe out one 30-man squad.

They're not a god unit, but they're perfectly reasonable at what they do, for the points they cost. What's more, add a force multiplier, like a chaplain, and they get even better.

'Overpriced', 'underpriced' and 'reasonably priced' are entirely relative terms. Easily half the armies in the game get better units that do the same job for less points; that makes Space Marines overpriced.

Really? Care to provide examples? Cause I can't think of more than maybe one codex that gets a unit that does what TH/SS terminators do for less points.

Changing one army to correct the relative expense is easier and, I would say, better for game balance than changing six or seven other army books to stay in balance with it. That's what I mean when I say 'overpriced'; they are at a relative disadvantage against a majority of competing armies, because the balance of the game has changed.

So you're comparing vanilla marines to just the books released after them, and assuming that codex creep is a good thing and that vanilla marines should be buffed, rather than the later books being reduced. I think there are more books that need buffing more than vanilla marines in that case, that have gone longer without updates.

Clearly it isn't, since nobody takes {Normal terminators}. According to the only measure that actually matters, 40 points is too much to pay for a model with a 2+/5++, power fist, and storm bolter.

Incorrect conclusion. You cannot claim that people don't take shooty terminators because they're overpriced when there is an underpriced alternative available. People don't take shooty terminators because TH/SS terminators are better. People would still take TH/SS terminators at 50 points/model because they fulfill a vital role in the army. But, at 50ppm for TH/SS terminators, some people would look to normal terminators to save a few points.

Redbeard wrote:
Given that 200 points of TH/SS terminators can handle their own against 500 points of deathstar units, like nob bikers, I'd call that cheap.

If you are walking 5 Assault Terminators, and I am running a 500-point unit of Nob Bikers, I guarantee that the two units will NEVER engage in close combat unless I've already killed 3 of those Termies with shooting.

So I can set up a firebase with my th/ss terminators out of sight, and you won't come near me because my counter-assault unit scares you. Good for me, I reckon.

I don't 'know' anything. I am speaking from my own experience. I'll be the first to admit that I have not played against many top tournament players, and I can only talk about my local area; however, I can say that I'm puzzled as to how ten terminators on foot manage to get into combat without losing at least four or five to shooting on the way in. That's a 400 point footslogging unit, comprised of 10 models with a 2+ save; it might as well be wearing a big 'shoot me' sign.

Well, if you play against good competition, you'll learn how these things work. Sometimes, they just walk right up the middle and count on making enough saves. Sometimes, they're used to draw fire away from other units. If your opponent has other targets, do you use your lascannon on a terminator with a 3++ or do you shoot at an easier target? And, while orks can benefit from volume shooting, not a lot of armies typically field the volume of fire required to drop that many 2+ save guys.

Yes, if you shoot them enough, they go down. What is 'enough', and when you put enough on them, what happens to the rest of your opponent's army?

Codex Marines require much more thought than the majority of the other armies in the game, to achieve a result that is only just as good. That's practically the definition of an inferior army.

Unless you're looking at it the wrong way. Codex marines have all the tools to win all the games. Not all codexes can say that. Most codexes, especially xenos codexes, have bad matchups. They have games they're really hard-pressed to win. Codex Marines may require thought to win every game, but they're in every game, they have very few (probably no) no-win situations. And, in some people's book, that's practically the definition of a good army. Put me in the game and let my skill win it.

So you're comparing vanilla marines to just the books released after them, and assuming that codex creep is a good thing and that vanilla marines should be buffed, rather than the later books being reduced. I think there are more books that need buffing more than vanilla marines in that case, that have gone longer without updates.

Likewise there are many books/units that should be nerfed before Vanilla Marines TH/SS Termies.

Ecstasy in Service wrote:Wait...So I sould only be able to use my shield when the enemy is in my face? if someone is shooting at me I can't block it with my shield? I disagree with this, storm shields should work for both range and combat saves.

I don't see a to change them, as a marine player and from looking at plenty of battle reports, it is easy to see how storm shields are not the most badass things out there. For real, Termis.s are great but can go down just like everything else. Hit them with enough attacks and sooner or later they go down.

I agree that it shouldn't just apply to close combat, but I don't agree with your statement/standing that they aren't a big issue. Look at higher profile tournaments or larger scale tournaments, the one unit you see almost every Marine player running is a Terminator Assault Squad. The thing is you say everything can be killed, well how do you kill something that gets a 2+ save normally and, if that isn't able to be taken, it gets a 3++ save instead?

Do the math a bit here. Let say a five man Terminator Assault Squad is going up against a 10 man Assault Squad. The assault squad gets first round, so they need 4+ to hit. They get 31 attacks on the charge and will hit on a 4+, so there's 16 attacks that hit roughly. Next they have to wound. Same Strength vs Toughness, so again, 4+, so 8 of those 16 attacks get through. Finally we have the saves. For the sake of argument we'll say the Sergeant had a Power Weapon on him and we'll say that two of his attacks got through, so there's 2 power weapon attacks and 6 normal attacks. The Terminator Assault squad gets 2+ saves against the 6 normal attacks, so we'll say 1 fails for the sake of argument. There's one Terminator down. The sergeant's power weapon attacks still have to get past a 3+ save and, odds are, both of the saves are going to be made. So, out of 31 attacks, only one attack managed to kill one Terminator. Now the terminators get to strike back.

8 Thunder Hammer attacks, so 4 will hit (4+ to hit). Next comes the to-wound rolls. Each attack hits at Strength 8, so they need 2+ to wound. Odds are none of those attacks are not going to wound, but for the sake of argument we'll say that one fails to wound. Next, armour saves, except the Assault Squad doesn't get armour saves, so there's 3 dead Assault Marines. Three dead and they both A) Didn't charge and B) struck last still. If the assault squad was really unlucky they were stunned by the Thunder Hammers as well.

Now just imagine that Terminator Assault Squad was 10 Terminators in size and they actually got to charge. Even if they lose one that's 27 Thunder Hammer attacks coming at that Assault Squad. The math doesn't stack up in the assault squad's favor and, odds are, that Assault Squad is dead in the first turn of that assault. Even if you focus fire them odds are you're not going to get many of them unless you have an abundance of plasma cannons or lascannons (or equivalent) weapons on your side of the field.

In the end, Terminator Assault Squads are just too good for their points cost, so good that they make tactical Terminator Squads pretty dull and useless in comparison. Thus, in my opinion, either keep Storm Shields the way they are and increase their points costs (and for Terminator Assault Squads, make the squad pay +5 points per model to upgrade from Lightning Claws to a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield) or, as the original poster said, make them give +1 Invulnerable Save or 5+ invulnerable save.

Redbeard wrote:

Really? As an ork player myself, I find that a unit of assault marines is something I don't want to fight with a unit of boyz, because, although I might eventually triumph, I'll be brought below combat effectiveness for the rest of the game. Run as I usually see them run, they're carrying a couple of flamers, which makes a mess of things to begin with, and outside of abnormal rolling, even without initial flamer attacks, they're going to win the first round of combat, adding in no-retreat wounds. On top of that, they cost less than a unit of 30 boyz.

Here's something I learned once that typically holds true; given units of similar nature, if you want to destroy one with minimal impact on the return, you need to hit it with three times the points. For assault marines vs boyz, they will absolutely destroy a unit of 10 boyz. Or 3 units of assault marines will wipe out one 30-man squad.

They're not a god unit, but they're perfectly reasonable at what they do, for the points they cost. What's more, add a force multiplier, like a chaplain, and they get even better.

All this is true; but now you're not talking about assault marines. You're talking about assault marines with 2 flamers and potentially a chaplain, which is a very different kettle of fish. I would certainly expect a 355-point unit to beat up on a squad of Ork Boyz, and they do; but they still take painful casualties doing it.

If in your experience Assault Marines only die 'eventually' to boyz, that's very different from what I've seen. If a tooled-squad with a Chaplain gets the charge, they basically wipe the boyz out in one round; if the unit is any weaker than that or if they get charged, they're all dead by round 3, and the Boyz are still above half-strength unless my dice hate me that day. Without the flamers, 10 Assault Marines with PF Sergeant (charging) win the first round against 30 Boyz with PK Nob, and then the survivors die on the second round. WITH the flamers, yes, they'll win the first round. . . but they'll still all be dead by the end of the third. This is all with strictly average rolling. With flamers and a chaplain, they win the combat pretty handily, but now you've got a 300+-point deathstar unit that just wiped out a single squad of boys (taking 3-4 casualties in the process), and is just begging to be lit up with shoota fire and counter-charged. They need a little luck to survive even one round of the ensuing combat, and the total result is that a squad of boyz has been traded for a much more expensive squad of Space Marines, including an HQ unit. I'll take that trade, happily.

Assault Marines are highly situational, in short. They only work when they've taken a lot of expensive options, and have a weak target they can pick on with no friends close enough to kill them immediately afterwards. If there's two units close together, they're dead meat, and if the unit is any stronger than Ork Boyz they're dead meat. That's pretty sad for an assault unit.

Redbeard wrote:
Really? Care to provide examples? Cause I can't think of more than maybe one codex that gets a unit that does what TH/SS terminators do for less points.

I was actually referring to Assault Marines, Devastators, Tactical Marines, and Vanguard Veterans. TH/SS Terminators are, indeed, just about the only unit in the codex that is competitive against similar units in other codexes.

Examples for the other units; Ork Boyz do everything either Tactical or Assault Marines do better, or cheaper, or both, with the sole exception of killing tanks with meltabombs (and Marines are rubbish at that anyway). Plague Marines or indeed basic CSM make Tactical Marines look quite pathetic by comparison. Obliterators are better Devastators than Devastators are, while Havocs can do anything they can do for the same price and also have special weapon options, so they can be kitted out to serve other roles as well; for that matter, Lootas are more effective against many targets, and just about the same price. Khorne Berzerkers are Assault Marines who have traded a little mobility for the ability to be much, much better at their job, and can take a transport to nullify that small advantage anyway. Vanguard Veterans quite frankly pale as assault troops in comparison to Nobz (Biker or Battlewagon-mounted, as you please), Chaos Terminators, winged Daemon Princes, or (once again) plain old Ork Boyz.

Redbeard wrote:
So you're comparing vanilla marines to just the books released after them, and assuming that codex creep is a good thing and that vanilla marines should be buffed, rather than the later books being reduced. I think there are more books that need buffing more than vanilla marines in that case, that have gone longer without updates.

I am not assuming it's a GOOD thing. I am assuming that it's a thing which exists, and it has to be compensated for. Downgrading Codex Marines is simply ignoring the fact that a downgrade is the last thing they need. If other codexes start being brought down in power, you may have a point with this; since I don't see that happening anytime in the near future, I'm not looking to make Codex Marines any worse than they already are.

The fact that other books exist which ALSO need buffing does not negate the fact that Codex Marines could use a little of it.

Redbeard wrote:
Incorrect conclusion. You cannot claim that people don't take shooty terminators because they're overpriced when there is an underpriced alternative available. People don't take shooty terminators because TH/SS terminators are better. People would still take TH/SS terminators at 50 points/model because they fulfill a vital role in the army. But, at 50ppm for TH/SS terminators, some people would look to normal terminators to save a few points.

I can certainly make this claim, when there is a nearly-identical unit in another army (CSM Terminators) which have the option for the same configuration at the same price but WITHOUT the competition provided by the allegedly-underpriced TH/SS Terminators, and still are never taken. And this is in an army that is widely considered uncompetitive; if PF/bolter Terminators were a viable option at their points cost, I would think I'd see lots of them being run in CSM armies, and I don't. Do you?

Redbeard wrote:
So I can set up a firebase with my th/ss terminators out of sight, and you won't come near me because my counter-assault unit scares you. Good for me, I reckon.

No; it just means that before I assault the Terminators I'll shoot them with 8 twin-linked Dakkagunz from the Nobz (killing one) and a nearby unit of Shoota Boyz (killing another 1-2). Or I'll run them over with a Deffrolla Battlewagon once or twice, lock them up with boyz, and kill the Devastators or whatever you have shooting with the Nobz. The assault range of footslogging Terminators is so short that they simply have no power to decide what they want to kill; they just have to put up with fighting whatever wants to attack them. That's a recipe for defeat.

Redbeard wrote:
Well, if you play against good competition, you'll learn how these things work. Sometimes, they just walk right up the middle and count on making enough saves. Sometimes, they're used to draw fire away from other units. If your opponent has other targets, do you use your lascannon on a terminator with a 3++ or do you shoot at an easier target? And, while orks can benefit from volume shooting, not a lot of armies typically field the volume of fire required to drop that many 2+ save guys.

Yes, if you shoot them enough, they go down. What is 'enough', and when you put enough on them, what happens to the rest of your opponent's army?

One 20-strong squad of Boyz is enough as Orks, or one plasma-armed squad of Plague Marines as CSM. One or two turns of shooting, then Waaagh and charge in with the boyz; move into 12" range in a Rhino and light them up with plasma + TL bolter + havoc launcher with the Plagues, then drop a squad's worth of shooting into them once they wreck the Rhino (or get out and do so if they don't) and dare them to charge. If they do, they're tied up for at least 2 more turns and probably at half strength or less by the time they finally wipe the Plagues out; if they don't, then I get to follow them and keep shooting as they walk slowly past. Either way, they are no longer dangerous. Foot termies can be neutralized by a single, far less valuable unit.

Redbeard wrote:
Unless you're looking at it the wrong way. Codex marines have all the tools to win all the games. Not all codexes can say that. Most codexes, especially xenos codexes, have bad matchups. They have games they're really hard-pressed to win. Codex Marines may require thought to win every game, but they're in every game, they have very few (probably no) no-win situations. And, in some people's book, that's practically the definition of a good army. Put me in the game and let my skill win it.

I agree they have all the tools; but their tools are more expensive than most other armies', which means that they have fewer tools for dealing with any given thing. It's quite easy to be caught out without the right tool for the job, with Codex Marines; green tide Orks, for example, tend to catch them somewhat off-balance, because if they prepare for that they don't have enough points to adequately prepare for the more standard mech-heavy MEQ armies.

And increasing the points cost on their only truly viable close-combat unit will only make that effect worse.

Hmm... your "proof" is that an Assault Squad (which is a pretty "meh" unit) gets rolled by 10 TH/SS Termies? Oh noes!

Focus fire isn't that hard. It takes around 30 bolter wounds to drop 5 TH/SS Termies. It's not like they are BA TH/SS.

And I actually don't see TH/SS as any more of an autoinclude than Rifleman Dreads, Dakka Preds, Typhoon Landspeeders, or MM ABs. They are ALL solid units, but you can still make an effective list without them.

30 bolter wounds is 100 shots at BS4 vs TEQ just sayin.

Redbeard wrote:d6 systems do limit slight variation, but point costs can adjust for that.

It's not hard to see that TH/SS is too good. No one takes normal terminators, and no one takes lightning claw terminators.

I have no issue leaving them with a 3++, but they should be priced accordingly. A 3++ is really useful - clearly moreso than either 2 S4 shots, or re-rollable wounds. It should cost more.

Maybe you are ill informed. The good players don't really take Assault Terminators nowadays, just like they don't take Land Raiders anymore. Assault Terms. lack duality, and therefore they are not as awesome as what you think they are.
They are only good when you are playing against average players, who throw Nobs, Marines, or anything that is expensive but hav poor invul save against them. They are (ONLY) fantastic for what they were designed to do - roll over Deathstars. But that's what most things in 40k is about.

Redbeard wrote:
Given that 200 points of TH/SS terminators can handle their own against 500 points of deathstar units, like nob bikers, I'd call that cheap.

This comment alone shows that you have a very distorted view of 40k in general. There are alot of other units in 40k that will appear VERY CHEAP if you compare point efficiency that way.

A squad of 20 boys on the charge kills on average 3 Assault Termis (rounded down). Assuming the 2 terminators strike back with charge bonus, they kill only 3 orks (rounded up). And those boys cost less than the squad of 5 Terminators.

The above is just one (out of many) simple illustration that Assault Termis are ONLY good at what they were designed to do, and are pretty meh at anything else. They lack DUALITY. And units that are like that are NOT cost efficient.

And let me give you yet another example. 3 Meganobs differently equipped cost 130 points. They can take on 24 Grey Hunters that cost 360 points and probably still win combat.
Assuming both sides get the charge :-
24 GHs = 72 attacks, 18 wounds, 3 failed saves.
3 Meganobs = 8-12 attacks (depending on whether a single MANz failed 2 saves in a row), 3-5 wounds, 3-5 dead.

360 is almost 3 times 130. Does that make MegaNobs utterly AWESOME? I don't think so.

Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Well, the points is, his tactical marines probably don't have anything else to do anyway (besides capturing objective). So his tac. marines are actually not "wasted" in this case.

Isseyfaran wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Well, the points is, his tactical marines probably don't have anything else to do anyway (besides capturing objective). So his tac. marines are actually not "wasted" in this case.

Either way, you're still talking about twice as many points taking several turns to down said unit, which isn't a terribly effective way of engaging them.

Vaktathi wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Well, the points is, his tactical marines probably don't have anything else to do anyway (besides capturing objective). So his tac. marines are actually not "wasted" in this case.

Either way, you're still talking about twice as many points taking several turns to down said unit, which isn't a terribly effective way of engaging them.

Point is the tac marines were'nt even taken in the list so that they could kill terminators. They were taken because they were needed for other roles. Directing them to shoot at the terminators (IF they have nothing better to do at that time) was just a bonus. No one is RELYING on the tac marines to deal with the terminators.

But this is not the case for assault terminators. At 200 points a squad, they are useless unless they have a deathstar unit in the vicinity for them to kill. They are pretty much useful for only a single purpose.

Compare this to a squad of 20-30 shoota boys who can capture objectives, force saves on infantry at a distance, bubble wrap/tarpit, or charge into a squad of assault terminators.

TH/SS termi's are useful for so much more than deathstar termination. Have you ever seen one roll into the flank of an IG mech gunline? They can take the hits, survive, multi-assault several vehicles, and clear a flank fairly quickly. There's nothing better SM's have for dealing with MC's or tough killy IC's, and against *any* 3+/2+sv unit that isn't sporting some serious CC power of it's own, they'll destroy it.

I'm shocked by the sheer amount of replies to this thread, but here is more of my opinion.

Yes, TH/SS termies are an anti-deathstar unit.
And why? Why should CSM not have any anti-deathstar units? We are the only MEQ without SS.
Never, ever, complain about LR. Chaos LR get, for practically the same amount of points, a much worse tank.

SS are overpowered/underpriced. To those that defend the SS/TH termies, tell me: if you simply made a competetive list, and decided to take a termie unit, which unit would you take?

Lower it to +1 invuln, and problem is solved.

People seriously still have issues with TH/SS or storm shields at all? When have they ever won any major tournament? Also why does every Chaos player expect their army to be Codex: Marines + more evil stuff. Sure you can have SS I'd also like all the cool gimmicks your army has too. Than we can all be nice and homogenized.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
All this is true; but now you're not talking about assault marines. You're talking about assault marines with 2 flamers and potentially a chaplain, which is a very different kettle of fish. I would certainly expect a 355-point unit to beat up on a squad of Ork Boyz, and they do; but they still take painful casualties doing it.

I mentioned the chaplain because people often run them that way. Flamers are part of the unit - they're no different than drawing a distinction between ork boyz and ork boyz with a nob. And, with the flamers, they still cost less than 30 boyz+ nob, and still beat that unit.

What's more - yes, I expect a fight between two reasonably decent assault units of roughly the same point cost to result in one unit being destroyed, and the other being crippled. That's the nature of equal-point fights.

I can certainly make this claim, when there is a nearly-identical unit in another army (CSM Terminators) which have the option for the same configuration at the same price but WITHOUT the competition provided by the allegedly-underpriced TH/SS Terminators, and still are never taken. And this is in an army that is widely considered uncompetitive; if PF/bolter Terminators were a viable option at their points cost, I would think I'd see lots of them being run in CSM armies, and I don't. Do you?

Chaos shooty terminators pale in comparison to loyalist ones. Combi-bolters are not as good as storm bolters, and they lack the decent shooting options (assault cannons, missile launchers) that loyalists can take. 5 loyalist terminators can move&shoot with a threat radius of 30", firing 8 stormbolter and 4 assault cannon shots a turn, while providing a measure of counter-assault capability to their army. Chaos terminators get 4 bolter shots and 2 autocannon shots, half the damage output, and without the rending weapon. Points don't enter into it, chaos terminators cannot serve the same role that loyalist ones can, they don't have the right weapons.

No; it just means that before I assault the Terminators I'll shoot them with 8 twin-linked Dakkagunz from the Nobz (killing one) and a nearby unit of Shoota Boyz (killing another 1-2). Or I'll run them over with a Deffrolla Battlewagon once or twice, lock them up with boyz, and kill the Devastators or whatever you have shooting with the Nobz. The assault range of footslogging Terminators is so short that they simply have no power to decide what they want to kill; they just have to put up with fighting whatever wants to attack them. That's a recipe for defeat.

No, it's a recipe for using tactics to pick your fights or scare you away. Did you miss the part about putting them out of line-of-sight?

One 20-strong squad of Boyz is enough as Orks, or one plasma-armed squad of Plague Marines as CSM. One or two turns of shooting, then Waaagh and charge in with the boyz; move into 12" range in a Rhino and light them up with plasma + TL bolter + havoc launcher with the Plagues, then drop a squad's worth of shooting into them once they wreck the Rhino (or get out and do so if they don't) and dare them to charge. If they do, they're tied up for at least 2 more turns and probably at half strength or less by the time they finally wipe the Plagues out; if they don't, then I get to follow them and keep shooting as they walk slowly past. Either way, they are no longer dangerous. Foot termies can be neutralized by a single, far less valuable unit.

If you think you're killing 10 foot th/ss guys with 20 ork boyz, you're new. If you think plague marines can do it with a couple shooting rounds, I have to wonder if you've played this game. And, if you're instead taking about 5 terminators, well, they're not "far less valuable" than the units you describe - remember, they're only 200 points. 20 ork boyz (and assuming a PK nob) are nearly that much as well.

Isseyfaran wrote:Maybe you are ill informed. The good players don't really take Assault Terminators nowadays, just like they don't take Land Raiders anymore.

Not what I've seen in tournament write-ups.

The above is just one (out of many) simple illustration that Assault Termis are ONLY good at what they were designed to do, and are pretty meh at anything else. They lack DUALITY. And units that are like that are NOT cost efficient.

If you are fulfilling a vital role in your army (preventing enemy deathstars from rolling you), then it's okay to be good at that and little else. What else is a marine army using to stop thunderwolves/nob bikers/paladins? Maybe only bad players run such units (I don't believe that, but okay, I'll take your word for it), but there are plenty of bad players at tournaments, and you still get matched up with them.

Theduke07 wrote:People seriously still have issues with TH/SS or storm shields at all? When have they ever won any major tournament?

You should check out Ben Mohile's record.

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Whoops! For some reason I was thinking 10 Termies (hence the 400). In any case, I think the point still stands in that your basic Tactical Marines that most lists take are capable of dropping a 5 Man unit if given enough time. More shooty units will put them down even faster.

@Redbeard: Just because Ben Mohile uses them successfully does NOT make them OP or undercosted. I have seen multiple successful SM lists without TH/SS... probably more than I see with them. Just because a unit is good and can be used in multiple builds doesn't mean it needs the cost jacked up. If we literally saw them in every list (cough Longfangs cough), then there might be something to that. Once again I would argue that they are no more of a must-take/undercosted unit than Dakka Preds, Typhoons, MM ABs, and Riflemen Dreads. The reason you don't see regular Termies taken is NOT because TH/SS are undercosted... it's because shooty Termies are overcosted for their role. Heck... if you took TH/SS out of the Codex completely, I STILL wouldn't take regular Termies. There are too many better shooting options in the codex. TH/SS are just an innocent bystander.

@BrotherHaraldus: CSM has several anti-deathstar units such as Oblits, Lash Princes (keep lashing them away), and even Abaddy. Don't get me wrong... CSM needs some love, but I don't think increasing the cost of TH/SS Termies is going to magically make them more competitive.

@Theduke07: This.

For contrast, see the Black Templars TH/SS Terminators. They're the best in the game and people still take Tactical Terminators more often in competitive lists. Those 2 weapons at 5 dudes really helps, especially considering we get tank hunters. I rhus don't believe that TH/SS OR Tac Termies need a price change, but rather that Tac Termies need something to incease their oomph.

Gornall wrote:
@Redbeard: Just because Ben Mohile uses them successfully does NOT make them OP or undercosted.

You're right. It does, however, serve as a counter to those who say "it can't be OP if it hasn't won a major tournament" (they have), or that good players have stopped using them (they haven't).

Both of those arguments are really bad. There are what, 10 "major" tournaments a year, give or take. So that means that at most, ten lists won a major tournament in a given year. And the argument being presented is that if something wasn't in one of those lists, it cannot be overpowered. Or perhaps that it's just not competitive at all because it hasn't won a major tournament?

What about coming in second place? What about a consecutive string of top-ten finishes without actually taking it all? Are these armies not also good?

The reason you don't see regular Termies taken is NOT because TH/SS are undercosted... it's because shooty Termies are overcosted for their role. Heck... if you took TH/SS out of the Codex completely, I STILL wouldn't take regular Termies. There are too many better shooting options in the codex. TH/SS are just an innocent bystander.

Well, that's one opinion. I think a lot of the view of over or undercosted comes from what people are comparing them to. Are you comparing them to Grey Knights or to Eldar? Or to other marines? 200 points of TH/SS guys will own 200 points of Paladins, given typical rolling. Their strength (invul saves, thunderhammers) match up perfectly against paladins. Those same guys will typically lose to basic ork boyz just through volume of attacks, something the paladins won't be putting out.

I agree that normal terminators fail at the role that assault terminators excel at, namely deathstar defense, and that in the current metagame, deathstar defense is something that needs to be considered. But that's because of the 5th ed metagame forcing people towards either MSU or deathstar armies, and away from more balanced ones. When 6th drops, I think those shooty terminators might find their place again.

Redbeard wrote:

I mentioned the chaplain because people often run them that way. Flamers are part of the unit - they're no different than drawing a distinction between ork boyz and ork boyz with a nob. And, with the flamers, they still cost less than 30 boyz+ nob, and still beat that unit.

What's more - yes, I expect a fight between two reasonably decent assault units of roughly the same point cost to result in one unit being destroyed, and the other being crippled. That's the nature of equal-point fights.

The difference being that the fight only ends with both being crippled if the Assault Marines get the charge (reasonable, since they're a faster unit), and haven't gotten shot up at all on the way in (not particularly reasonable). That's an assumption that I think is unrealistic.

Redbeard wrote:
Chaos shooty terminators pale in comparison to loyalist ones. Combi-bolters are not as good as storm bolters, and they lack the decent shooting options (assault cannons, missile launchers) that loyalists can take. 5 loyalist terminators can move&shoot with a threat radius of 30", firing 8 stormbolter and 4 assault cannon shots a turn, while providing a measure of counter-assault capability to their army. Chaos terminators get 4 bolter shots and 2 autocannon shots, half the damage output, and without the rending weapon. Points don't enter into it, chaos terminators cannot serve the same role that loyalist ones can, they don't have the right weapons.

Fair enough; loyalist terminators can have a little more firepower, in the form of the assault cannon vs. reaper autocannon. TL bolters vs stormbolters is nearly a wash, actually; at the 12-24" range you expect 5 hits from the storm bolters and 4 from the TL bolters, and one extra S4 hit is such a minor increase as to be ignored.

The fact remains that the closest comparable unit is never taken, and neither is the unit itself. I, personally, find that a pretty decent argument that shooty terminators are overcosted.

Redbeard wrote:
No, it's a recipe for using tactics to pick your fights or scare you away. Did you miss the part about putting them out of line-of-sight?

I'm sorry; you can 'use tactics' with any unit, in any situation. The fact that you CAN, with effort, find a use for footslogging Assault Terminators does not make them a good unit. They don't hit hard enough against large units to be worth their price when they cannot pick their battles.

If I need to kill the firebase, for whatever reason, I can even kill it (in the situation we're positing above) from 18" away with the Dakkagunz on my Nob Bikers. They're perfectly fine for dealing with rear AV, or gunning down shooty units. I never have to fight the Assault Terminators unless I WANT to; I get to choose the circumstances of the assault, or at least have a much, much higher degree of influence over it than I do if they're in a Land Raider.

Redbeard wrote:
If you think you're killing 10 foot th/ss guys with 20 ork boyz, you're new. If you think plague marines can do it with a couple shooting rounds, I have to wonder if you've played this game. And, if you're instead taking about 5 terminators, well, they're not "far less valuable" than the units you describe - remember, they're only 200 points. 20 ork boyz (and assuming a PK nob) are nearly that much as well.

Lets do some math.

20 Shoota Boyz kill 1 Terminator per turn of shooting, on average. On the turn in which they charge, they kill 3 with the assault. Two turns of shooting plus a charge has half the unit dead already; the other five swing, kill four Orks, another dies to a Fearless wound, and are locked in combat. The Orks will kill 1-Terminator next round, and lose 3 (two more Fearless wound, but they can take one on the Nob); then kill 1 and lose 3, etc. With strictly average rolling, they grind the Terminators down over 5-6 rounds of combat; by which point the game is over or nearly over. The Terminators MAY win by forcing the Shootas to fall back in one of the later rounds; but even if they do, they've got 2-3 models left and are easy meat for, well, anything. If the Terminator unit has been shot up at all by any other unit, then the fight just ends faster. So, yes; I DO think I can kill 10 TH/SS Terminators with 20 shoota boyz, because I've done it, and the math bears me out. That, by the way, is a 165-point basic Troops unit tarpitting for the entire game and finally crippling or destroying outright a 400-point dedicated assault unit. Tell me again how undercosted TH/SS Terminators are?

As to the Plague Marines; read what I wrote again. I never said the Plagues would wipe out the unit; I said that with only a small amount of maneuvering they are perfectly capable of killing half of them and tying the others up for a couple of turns, effectively taking them out of the fight. It's better to do it with basic CSM, since they're cheaper, but when I play CSM I usually run Plague Marines, so they're what I talked about.

Redbeard wrote:
If you are fulfilling a vital role in your army (preventing enemy deathstars from rolling you), then it's okay to be good at that and little else. What else is a marine army using to stop thunderwolves/nob bikers/paladins? Maybe only bad players run such units (I don't believe that, but okay, I'll take your word for it), but there are plenty of bad players at tournaments, and you still get matched up with them.

Well, that's kind of exactly the point. Even though they are not a particularly overwhelming unit for the cost, TH/SS Terminators are the only way Codex Marines CAN deal with things like that. . . which is exactly why they shouldn't be nerfed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Redbeard wrote:

I agree that normal terminators fail at the role that assault terminators excel at, namely deathstar defense, and that in the current metagame, deathstar defense is something that needs to be considered. But that's because of the 5th ed metagame forcing people towards either MSU or deathstar armies, and away from more balanced ones. When 6th drops, I think those shooty terminators might find their place again.

Fair enough; and once 6th Ed rolls around, perhaps that'll be true. But we're discussing 5th Edition, and it isn't true now. Without another viable method of countering deathstars, penalizing TH/SS Termies further just seems odd to me.

Redbeard wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:Maybe you are ill informed. The good players don't really take Assault Terminators nowadays, just like they don't take Land Raiders anymore.

Not what I've seen in tournament write-ups

WAIT WAIT. You talking about the local mini tournaments around your neighbourhood?

I don't see Assault Terms in the top placing list in Nova last year. Neither do I see them in Adepticon.
OK maybe I missed something. Give us some links please?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

What's more - yes, I expect a fight between two reasonably decent assault units of roughly the same point cost to result in one unit being destroyed, and the other being crippled. That's the nature of equal-point fights.

The difference being that the fight only ends with both being crippled if the Assault Marines get the charge (reasonable, since they're a faster unit), and haven't gotten shot up at all on the way in (not particularly reasonable). That's an assumption that I think is unrealistic.

I don't. It's factored into their cost. They get jump packs, that pretty much means they get the charge, unless you're factoring in outside elements. But once you start doing that, it's not a straight up comparison of units and their effect based on their points. You want to say the assault marines would be down to 5 guys because your lootas shot them, well, okay, now you're looking at the effect of 500 points of orks on 200 points of marines. It's no longer a reasonable comparison.

The fact remains that the closest comparable unit is never taken, and neither is the unit itself. I, personally, find that a pretty decent argument that shooty terminators are overcosted.

You're still drawing conclusions ignoring factors. Why aren't loyalist terminators taken? It's not the cost. It's that they don't fill a niche like TH/SS terminators do. Why aren't chaos terminators taken? Again, it's not the cost, it's because they can be run more effectively within that codex, fulfilling a niche. (Either deep striking melta, or more-fighty land-raider assaults). You're concluding that they're not taken because of their cost. I'm saying that's not a reasonable conclusion, they're not taken because they don't fill a necessary role in an army, whereas the alternatives do.

I'm sorry; you can 'use tactics' with any unit, in any situation. The fact that you CAN, with effort, find a use for footslogging Assault Terminators does not make them a good unit. They don't hit hard enough against large units to be worth their price when they cannot pick their battles.

Since you've already claimed that you don't get the opportunity to play against good players, and don't have any sort of record to point to any particular skills of your own, I'm simply going to ignore this. I've got a string of top-ten finishes at various GTs. Yes, I can use tactics.

Lets do some math.

20 Shoota Boyz kill 1 Terminator per turn of shooting, on average.

No, 20 shoota boyz kill 3/4s of a terminator, per turn, on average. Which means that there will be turns when you kill 0. And that will happen when it's least convenient for you...

...

Yes, congratulations, you have found a mismatch. Clearly terminators suck because they lose to units that put out volumes of fire rather than quality fire. On the other hand, they can survive several lascannon shots and just keep coming. Neither of these things tells us anything, other than that we've got a unit that excels at handling quality fire and eventually goes down to quantity of fire. If you insist on making comparisons for a unit against it's most obvious counter, it can be proved that every model in the game is overpriced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Isseyfaran wrote:
WAIT WAIT. You talking about the local mini tournaments around your neighbourhood?

I don't see Assault Terms in the top placing list in Nova last year. Neither do I see them in Adepticon.
OK maybe I missed something. Give us some links please?

Cheak out Ben's list from the ETC last year, for example:

PLAYER: Ben Mohlie
ARMY DESCRIPTION: Space Marines

HQ 1: Librarian: Null Zone, Gate of Infinity [100]

Elite 1: 5 Assault Terminators with thunder hammer storm shield [200]
Elite 2: Dreadnought: twin linked auto-cannon(10), twin linked auto-cannon(10) [125]
Elite 3: Dreadnought: Multimelta (free), storm bolter (free) [105]

Troop 1: Tactical Squad
7 marines with bolters, 1 marine with meltagun (5), 1 marine with missile launcher(free), 1 Sgt. with Power fist (25), combi-melta(10) [210] (has transport 1)

Troop 2: Tactical Squad
7 Marines with bolters, 1 marine flamer(free), 1 marine with missile launcher (free) 1 sgt with bolter [170] (has transport 2)

Troop 3: Tactical Squad
7 Marines with bolters, 1 marine flamer(free), 1 marine with missile launcher (free) 1 sgt with bolter [170] (has transport 3)

Fast Attack 1: Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missile launcher (40) [90]

Fast Attack 2: Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missile launcher (40) [90]

Heavy Support 1: Land Raider: extra armor (15), Multi-Melta (10) [275]

Heavy Support 2:Thunderfire Cannon: [100]

Transport 1: Rhino [35]
Transport 2: Rhazorback twin heavy bolters [40]
Transport 3: Rhazorback twin heavy bolters [40]

Total: 1750

He also won WargamesCon with them last year, although I can't be bothered to do your seaches for you. It's out there, use your tools. so, no, not just "my neighborhood."

Vaktathi wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Gornall wrote:Only 90. And that's not that hard to do. For the price of the Termies you can almost have two full squads of Tacticals in Razors. Assume 1-2 rounds of 24" fire and then one round of Rapid Fire (if you don't run away) and that massive blob of Termies is pretty chewed up. There are much better examples, but I figured regular Tacticals would demonstrate the point without stacking the deck.

And that's how many points you're throwing against 200pts of terminators? ~400+?

Well, the points is, his tactical marines probably don't have anything else to do anyway (besides capturing objective). So his tac. marines are actually not "wasted" in this case.

Either way, you're still talking about twice as many points taking several turns to down said unit, which isn't a terribly effective way of engaging them.

So what I am gathering about the ultimate complaint then, as I feel you sum it up, is that TH/SS termies are OP and under costed because you have to dedicate more points to destroy them than the termies cost??

If I am reading this thread correctly, then I would have to say poo poo to your complaints here. There isnt a unit in the game that doesnt normally take more than its points worth of "aggro" to destroy. For what TH/SS termies do, they are just fine. Its a sloooow unit and even with the 2+ 3++ they are vulnerable to the same strategies that takes down any tough unit. Weight of dice, and simply ignoring them. If you took them in a landraider you are going to maximize that unit at maybe 6 models, 5 if you want an hq with them. 5 terminators is hardly scary unless its paladins and draigo XD. But even then, the same tactics apply. Remove the raider, and watch them poke around trying to get within 12 inches of something, or remove the raider and shoot them with plasma and str8+ (because odds are there isnt much else on the table to contend with with that unit)

(This was said with the knowledge of the location and purpose of this thread, just felt like offering my 2 cents)
It takes average of 6 wounds to kill a terminator. 4 if he is being hit with ap2. SO I dont find it at all intimidating to face termies no matter what dex they are from, and mind you I have faced black templar, grey knights, vanilla, space wolves, and blood angels terminators.

So if I may for a minute, I have been a member of this forum for quite awhile now (relative to my meager age of 23) and it still amazes me at the experience and length of time in the hobby alot of the users here possess... and then to see them so up in a tizzy over something as silly as vanilla marines TH/SS termies, a unit that I have NEVER had a problem with.
This thread has a lot of outrage (I would call it anyways) directed at the so called "underpriced" th/ss terminators and how they outclass everything yadda yadda yadda. Now with the tactical acumen (I hope) most of you have, you cannot tell me there are situations where a squad of melee only termies is useless, and a squad of shooty termies with a CML or an assault cannon (my favorite) are priceless. Because I can and I am a noob

So I would like to humbly suggest that we all.... chilax I guess, and rather than complaining about an under-priced unit, that i dont really find underpriced, how bout we discuss tactical counters to th/ss terminators from our differing codex and army build perspectives. Reason being that it is a positive gain, where as complaining about this is just gonna get you upset and get you nowhere, and the noobs reading this (points at self) will receive no further guidance in their trek to becoming Archons, Grand Masters, Cannonesses, Inquisitors, Warbosses, Fire Warrior Commanders, Autarchs and Farseers etc.... /end

Redbeard, I'm not particularly trying to fight with you, or anything. But you're not reading what I'm typing.

Assault Marines are overpriced for what they do. What they do, mostly, is get shot to pieces, and then massacred by any half-decent assault unit. If they get the charge, with an IC attached and a couple flamers to help them out, and they haven't been shot at all - in short, when they are both lucky and expensive - they are capable of wiping out unarmored horde infantry, and doing reasonably well against units with no assault capability whatsoever, like Tactical Squads.

It should be noted that I don't need to dedicate Lootas to shoot Assault Marines. If they're within charge range, they're also within range of the guns of my Shoota Boys. Two of the Marines die to Shoota fire, 3more die in the ensuing assault; now your 355-point unit has lost half it's numbers to a single 165-point squad of Boyz, and there are plenty more around. That, by the way, is including the flamers, assuming 5 hits each.

Shooty Terminators are overpriced for what they do. What they do is plod along, putting out an amount of fire that in no way justifies their cost and dying at a steady rate whenever a few guns are pointed at them. They are an unimpressive unit in a Codex which has a surplus of unimpressive units, and could do with a few less.

Assault Terminators are fairly priced for what they do. What they do is act as a counter-charge and deterrent force to splatter other deathstars, or as a spearhead assault unit to pre-emptively crush something scary before it can eat the squishier marines. They are handicapped in this role by being slow, having only a very expensive transport option, and having few attacks, which is compensated for by their enormous resilience. I do not believe that they need to be made any less attractive then they are; rather, alternative options should be made MORE attractive, because they all suck.

Redbeard wrote:You're still drawing conclusions ignoring factors. Why aren't loyalist terminators taken? It's not the cost. It's that they don't fill a niche like TH/SS terminators do. Why aren't chaos terminators taken? Again, it's not the cost, it's because they can be run more effectively within that codex, fulfilling a niche. (Either deep striking melta, or more-fighty land-raider assaults). You're concluding that they're not taken because of their cost. I'm saying that's not a reasonable conclusion, they're not taken because they don't fill a necessary role in an army, whereas the alternatives do.

That is EXACTLY the conclusion I'm drawing; shooty Terminators are never run because they DO NOTHING MARINES NEED. You can get bolters on Tactical squads, assault cannons on Razorbacks, missile launchers on Land Speeders or Devastators, and all for less points than shooty Terminators with (usually) more mobility. They don't fill any niche, they don't provide any tools that aren't well-provided elsewhere. That's exactly why they could use a buff.

Redbeard wrote:Since you've already claimed that you don't get the opportunity to play against good players, and don't have any sort of record to point to any particular skills of your own, I'm simply going to ignore this. I've got a string of top-ten finishes at various GTs. Yes, I can use tactics.

Please point to the part of my post where I asserted that you were an incompetent player who could not use tactics. Since there isn't one, that might be a bit difficult for you. After that, if you like, you could respond to the point I actually made, which was that the fact that you can manage to find a use for footslogging Assault Terminators does not make them an inherently good, efficient, or effective unit.

Redbeard wrote:
No, 20 shoota boyz kill 3/4s of a terminator, per turn, on average. Which means that there will be turns when you kill 0. And that will happen when it's least convenient for you...

You have done your math wrong. 19 Shoota Boyz (no shoota on the Nob) fire 38 shots. That equals 12 and 2/3rds hits, 6 and 1/3rd wounds, and slightly over one failed 2+ save, on average. Not 3/4.

Redbeard wrote:Yes, congratulations, you have found a mismatch. Clearly terminators suck because they lose to units that put out volumes of fire rather than quality fire. On the other hand, they can survive several lascannon shots and just keep coming. Neither of these things tells us anything, other than that we've got a unit that excels at handling quality fire and eventually goes down to quantity of fire. If you insist on making comparisons for a unit against it's most obvious counter, it can be proved that every model in the game is overpriced.

The mismatch here can be generalized. TH/SS Terminators are very nearly worthless when confronted with cheap units; they only shine when given the opportunity to destroy something valuable and tough. They are a highly specialized unit that is very good at their specialty; that's not a bad thing, but it does mean that their application is quite limited. They don't need to be made worse just because they're very good at the only thing they can do.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
That is EXACTLY the conclusion I'm drawing; shooty Terminators are never run because they DO NOTHING MARINES NEED. You can get bolters on Tactical squads, assault cannons on Razorbacks, missile launchers on Land Speeders or Devastators, and all for less points than shooty Terminators with (usually) more mobility. They don't fill any niche, they don't provide any tools that aren't well-provided elsewhere. That's exactly why they could use a buff.

See, I don't see this as a unit nedeing a buff, I see this as (more) evidence of the skewed nature of the 5th ed metagame. They should have a niche, but as everyone seems to be either meched up or deathstarring, the targets they'd be good against really aren't there. And, because people take the tools to handle much harder units as a matter of course, they're not as resilient as they once were.

Please point to the part of my post where I asserted that you were an incompetent player who could not use tactics.

You didn't claim I was an incompetent player. You claimed that I couldn't use tactics to justify a unit. Well, that's exactly what good players do. They develop tactics that stress the strengths of certain units, while mitigating their weaknesses. And while you may not have seen the ten-man footslogging TH/SS unit kicking butt, I have.

Redbeard wrote:
No, 20 shoota boyz kill 3/4s of a terminator, per turn, on average. Which means that there will be turns when you kill 0. And that will happen when it's least convenient for you...

You have done your math wrong. 19 Shoota Boyz (no shoota on the Nob) fire 38 shots. That equals 12 and 2/3rds hits, 6 and 1/3rd wounds, and slightly over one failed 2+ save, on average. Not 3/4.

Redbeard wrote:

See, I don't see this as a unit nedeing a buff, I see this as (more) evidence of the skewed nature of the 5th ed metagame. They should have a niche, but as everyone seems to be either meched up or deathstarring, the targets they'd be good against really aren't there. And, because people take the tools to handle much harder units as a matter of course, they're not as resilient as they once were.

That's all perfectly true; but you're talking about how you think the game SHOULD be, whereas I'm talking about the way the game IS. As the metagame stands, shooty Terminators just aren't useful enough to justify their points; because of the way vehicle rules interact with shooting and assault rules, a unit that is essentially just a better-armored Tactical squad has no place without something else to set it apart as valuable.

Redbeard wrote:
You didn't claim I was an incompetent player. You claimed that I couldn't use tactics to justify a unit. Well, that's exactly what good players do. They develop tactics that stress the strengths of certain units, while mitigating their weaknesses. And while you may not have seen the ten-man footslogging TH/SS unit kicking butt, I have.

The problem is that we're not discussing Redbeard's Assault Terminators, just Assault Terminators in general. Somewhere out there, there's a CSM player who has done really, really well with Chaos Spawn, because he knows how to use them to maximum effect and has dedicated a significant fraction of his army to ensuring that they get where they need to go, when he needs them. He would make all the same arguments you're making, and rightfully so; but that doesn't make Chaos Spawn a good unit. It just means that HE can use them well.

A bad unit in the hands of a good player is more effective than a good unit in the hands of a bad player. That doesn't say anything about the unit. I don't doubt that you've seen footslogging Assault Termies wrecking things; I don't doubt that you can use them to good effect yourself. But that doesn't mean they're overpowered, or undercosted.

Redbeard wrote:
So I did. My calculator has failed me, you're right. Even still, an average of 1 from shooting isn't a guaranteed thing, I've played orks too long to expect to kill terminators as easily as that. Sometimes, the guy just doesn't roll any ones.

He rolls two ones just as often as he doesn't roll any; sometimes he even rolls three. There's a lot of variability, yes, but it does all average out in the end. And honestly, I see my boyz killing terminators a lot more often than not. They're as reliable as anything is in 40k.

Redbeard wrote:
I think the original argument is that 3++ in general is somewhat wrong. You keep coming back to how these cheap ork shootaboy units can kill a terminator. What about the armies that don't have the models to put out that kind of volume of fire? They're hardly worthless against guard (they can wreck an entire line of chimeras at once), or non-terminator marines. They are a threat that most armies cannot just ignore. And, in the past, armies would pack some AP2 guns to guard against this possibility, but the 3++ makes those fairly worthless.

All of this is true, but once again I have to point out; effective use of Assault Terminators is highly situational if you haven't brought a Land Raider, and extremely expensive if you have. You can have either tactical flexibility or a reasonably-priced unit, but not both, and that's what keeps Assault Terminators (in my mind) from being underpriced/overpowered, Yes, they're hard to kill. . . but they're just one unit. If you're fighting Guard, you can often feed them one infantry squad per turn and pile lasgun fire onto them in your Shooting phases in between. As MEQs, usually you have a way to avoid them or an Assault Terminator unit of your own to counter-hammer them with. Furthermore, the amount of fire required to kill Assault Terminators isn't unobtainably high; 12 bolter hits will put down a Terminator. It's a lot, but even small armies can manage it with judiciously-focused fire. 10 TH/SS Terminators cost 400 points without transport; that's 1/5th of a competitively-sized army. Shouldn't you expect them to be able to soak up a turn's worth of shooting from an entire army at that points level?

I don't think that a 3++ is inherently unbalanced. I think people's ideas of what 'should' happen are offended by seeing a unit ignore 2/3 of plasma hits, or lascannon hits; but the truth is simply that Assault Terminators are not MEQ, or even TEQ, they're a different class of unit entirely. The things that work against normal Marines do not work on them, but other things do. Dealing with them requires different tactics; you can't just spam plasma and count on that killing ALL of your opponent's infantry with it, because some of them will laugh at your plasma and then beat your face in with a hammer. I just don't see that as a problem.

BeRzErKeR wrote: The things that work against normal Marines do not work on them, but other things do. Dealing with them requires different tactics; you can't just spam plasma and count on that killing ALL of your opponent's infantry with it, because some of them will laugh at your plasma and then beat your face in with a hammer. I just don't see that as a problem.

Here's the thing. There is no different tactic, You still deal with them pretty much the same way you deal with other terminators, either volume of non penetrating fire, or you try and force them to use the less capable invul. The difference is that the latter option is half as effective, you need to throw twice as much firepower at them to drop them. That's it, it's not really a change in tactics, it means you need to throw twice as much stuff at them.

As is, they've made just about any other type of terminator pointless there's a reason you almost never see other terminators in C:SM armies and it's not because the other variants are awful, and aside from BT's with their super-cheap double heavy weapons throwing out 4 move&shoot missiles a turn with Tank Hunters, that's unlikely to change soon.

Vaktathi wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote: The things that work against normal Marines do not work on them, but other things do. Dealing with them requires different tactics; you can't just spam plasma and count on that killing ALL of your opponent's infantry with it, because some of them will laugh at your plasma and then beat your face in with a hammer. I just don't see that as a problem.

Here's the thing. There is no different tactic, You still deal with them pretty much the same way you deal with other terminators, either volume of non penetrating fire, or you try and force them to use the less capable invul. The difference is that the latter option is half as effective, you need to throw twice as much firepower at them to drop them. That's it, it's not really a change in tactics, it means you need to throw twice as much stuff at them.

As is, they've made just about any other type of terminator pointless there's a reason you almost never see other terminators in C:SM armies and it's not because the other variants are awful, and aside from BT's with their super-cheap double heavy weapons throwing out 4 move&shoot missiles a turn with Tank Hunters, that's unlikely to change soon.

What? That's not what I got from his statement at all. What he zerker said sounds like if an IG army plans to counter an SM army by taking a whole lot of vets with plasma guns then the TH/SS termi will force him to use the other method, which is forcing the TH/SS to take a whole of saves (or tarpit them with a blob). I see that the transition from "use few high-strength & low AP" to "mass volume of fire/tarpit with blob" as a change in tactic. Obviously a transition from "shoot em with plasma" to "shoot em with MORE plasma" is not a change in tactic and definitely NOT what he is talking about.

My point was that you're left with the same options either way, volume of fire included(note my first sentence in my previous post), be it AP2 or not, but AP2 is still generally going to be the most effective method, just less so than against other terminators, and that as a result of this resiliency they simply overshadow the other Terminator options.

The 3++ basically removes the reliable way of destroying that unit, while not really losing anything except the Stormbolter nobody cares about, meaning they are simply just much more effective than alternatives.


EDIT: missed this earlier.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:So what I am gathering about the ultimate complaint then, as I feel you sum it up, is that TH/SS termies are OP and under costed because you have to dedicate more points to destroy them than the termies cost??

I'm saying that dedicating 200%+pts to their destruction over several turns isn't exactly great.

If I am reading this thread correctly, then I would have to say poo poo to your complaints here. There isnt a unit in the game that doesnt normally take more than its points worth of "aggro" to destroy.

I beg to differ, there's lots of units that are relatively easily destroyed by roughly equal cost or even cheaper units.

For what TH/SS termies do, they are just fine. Its a sloooow unit

How are they slower than the vast majority of other Space Marine units? Aside from vehicles and Assault Marines, what's faster?

and even with the 2+ 3++ they are vulnerable to the same strategies that takes down any tough unit.

Except highly resistant to the traditional tools of dealing with units like them, to the point where they are taken to the almost complete exclusion of other types of Terminators in C:SM armies

Weight of dice, and simply ignoring them.

Weight of dice is really the *only* option and generally considered "the hard" way of dealing with such units. Ignoring a unit sporting 15 S8 power weapon attacks on a charge isn't an option for most armies.

If you took them in a landraider you are going to maximize that unit at maybe 6 models, 5 if you want an hq with them.

Yup, but that's usually plenty for what you need them to do.

5 terminators is hardly scary unless its paladins and draigo XD.

I do not believe your opponents have been using them to the best of their abilities then. As I mentioned earlier, there's practically no better anti-MC CC unit in the game, and even a small squad of 5 stands a good chance of clearing several tanks off a flank of a mech gunline on a decent multi-charge. Paladins often are actually easier to deal with (only a 5+ invul save against shooting and 2 wounds doesn't matter if you hit them with something S8+). In fact, typically, TH/SS termi's are going to come out on top if put in a fight against Paladins. (5 paladins striking with hammerhand against 5 TH/SS termi's on average is going to result in 1.48 casualties to the TH/SS unit. 3.52 TH/SS termi's striking back is going to result in 1.98 casualties back to the Paladin unit, meaning the TH/SS termi's are inflicting roughly 33% more casualties and roughly double, if not more, in terms of points destruction)

But even then, the same tactics apply. Remove the raider, and watch them poke around trying to get within 12 inches of something, or remove the raider and shoot them with plasma and str8+ (because odds are there isnt much else on the table to contend with with that unit)

Same as with any other terminator unit yes, but again, they're twice as hard to kill as equivalents with specialized anti-terminator weaponry and that makes them not only unreasonably hard for a mere 40pts but also a no-brainer over LC or SB/PF equipped Terminators.

(This was said with the knowledge of the location and purpose of this thread, just felt like offering my 2 cents)
It takes average of 6 wounds to kill a terminator. 4 if he is being hit with ap2. SO I dont find it at all intimidating to face termies no matter what dex they are from, and mind you I have faced black templar, grey knights, vanilla, space wolves, and blood angels terminators.

On average, it'll take 27 BS4 plasma gun shots to take down a 5 strong TH/SS unit, enough to kill 2 Trygon or nearly kill Abaddon the Despoiler twice over, and that's a weapon who's pretty much sole purpose these days is heavy infantry/anti-MC duty.

you cannot tell me there are situations where a squad of melee only termies is useless, and a squad of shooty termies with a CML or an assault cannon (my favorite) are priceless. Because I can and I am a noob

There may be. That said, the overwhelmingly vast majority of the time, the TH/SS termi's are going to deliver greater casualties to the enemy and do it more reliably. There's a reason you don't see tac termi's in almost any armies in competitive events aside from BT's (who can take 2 cut-price cyclones per squad and get Tank Hunters on top for a mere 3ppm). Honestly? The last time I saw tac termi's on the table that weren't some super new guy's army was 4th edition I think.

Redbeard wrote:Cheak out Ben's list from the ETC last year, for example:
PLAYER: Ben Mohlie
ARMY DESCRIPTION: Space Marines

HQ 1: Librarian: Null Zone, Gate of Infinity [100]

Elite 1: 5 Assault Terminators with thunder hammer storm shield [200]
Elite 2: Dreadnought: twin linked auto-cannon(10), twin linked auto-cannon(10) [125]
Elite 3: Dreadnought: Multimelta (free), storm bolter (free) [105]

Troop 1: Tactical Squad
7 marines with bolters, 1 marine with meltagun (5), 1 marine with missile launcher(free), 1 Sgt. with Power fist (25), combi-melta(10) [210] (has transport 1)

Troop 2: Tactical Squad
7 Marines with bolters, 1 marine flamer(free), 1 marine with missile launcher (free) 1 sgt with bolter [170] (has transport 2)

Troop 3: Tactical Squad
7 Marines with bolters, 1 marine flamer(free), 1 marine with missile launcher (free) 1 sgt with bolter [170] (has transport 3)

Fast Attack 1: Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missile launcher (40) [90]

Fast Attack 2: Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missile launcher (40) [90]

Heavy Support 1: Land Raider: extra armor (15), Multi-Melta (10) [275]

Heavy Support 2:Thunderfire Cannon: [100]

Transport 1: Rhino [35]
Transport 2: Rhazorback twin heavy bolters [40]
Transport 3: Rhazorback twin heavy bolters [40]

Total: 1750

He also won WargamesCon with them last year, although I can't be bothered to do your seaches for you. It's out there, use your tools. so, no, not just "my neighborhood."

You are kidding me. I dig out some batreps of that Wargamescon from fellow player and read them. His opponents were nowhere like what you see in Nova last year and the year before.
Don't you agree???

Pretty crap I would say. So no, quoting me non competitive events don't prove your point. And look at his list. Thunderfire cannon? Landraider? People still take them?!?!

And since your first post, you ve only mentioned Ben, and Ben. Pretty telling. You are painting buddy with him?

Redbeard wrote:If you are fulfilling a vital role in your army (preventing enemy deathstars from rolling you), then it's okay to be good at that and little else. What else is a marine army using to stop thunderwolves/nob bikers/paladins? Maybe only bad players run such units (I don't believe that, but okay, I'll take your word for it), but there are plenty of bad players at tournaments, and you still get matched up with them.

Autocannons, mass of meltas and Multimelta. Besides your painting skills, I know nothing about your list building skill and tactical capability. But I dont need Assault Terminators in my list to stop deathstars. While I dont deny having Assault Termis means you ll have an easier time doing that than me, but against pretty much any other list i have an advantage over you.

Since the thread is all over the place, Ill just put in my 2 cents.

First, I like the idea of THSS termies paying 5 points more per model. As a BA player among other things, the extra cost from 200 to 225 is a signifigant change, but also a good one. This makes mixing Lclaws more attractive, as they should.

Second, tactical termies should really just be 10 points less due to the Pweapon on the sarge. 190 base, with each extra termie 40 points, is really all I would want on that unit. While its true that a lot of players dont run tactical termies, I do and I love them. They are really a well balanced unit, and what people fail to see is that the lack of a better INV save doesnt really matter a lot of the time. They still smoke units with no powerweapons and vehicles just as well as THSS termies, and they still have a weakness to mass saves. However, they also get some great shooting, and benefit from cover against ap2 shooting. Its just the overpriced power weapon... 10 points on that one guy fixes all my complaints with the squad.

Also keep in mind that terminators, even tactical terminators, are a specialist unit. You are paying for mass powerfists/thunderhammers, which you get at a discount compared to sarge based powerfists. If you dont want mass s8, you dont want THSS or tactical termies.

I disagree about shooty termies. They are expensive for what they do.

They cost 230 (with a missile launcher)
A tac squad with a missile launcher costs 200, at 10 men, iiirc.

Now. Termies are:
as hard to kill with volume of fire (5 saves at 2+ or 10 saves at 3+)
Put out as much bolter shooting at 24"
Less bolter shooting at 12"
Aren't scoring
Can't be put in a transport except for a very expensive one
Are relentless
Have a 5+ inv
Have powerfists

Now, I feel the invulnerable save is a moot point. Most of the time you'll have cover, and even if you don't it's a pretty bad chance to save your 40 point model anyway!

The same with the fists. They have 4 fists and it's so uneeded. Fists are great with one or two in a squad, when there's plenty of higher init attacks to cover for them. When most of your squad strikes last it's hard to remove those casualties who've already attacked. It's also undeeded. Str 8 is overkill against anything t5 or less. Hence str 8 is best for vehicles and MCs. However tac termies can't go up against MCs as their inv save isn't good enough. And what use is such a slow unit for destroying vehicles in CC.

I mean, if you're shooting then you're walking not in a LR. Hence you're moving 6" a turn. By the time a vehicle reaches assault range it will have unloaded it's cargo, and if it wasn't a transport it would never be within assault range of your termies.

If it was the other way round, 4 power swords and 1 fist, they'd be a ton better. But as it stands they don't have the invs to survive close combat and have to survive it because they mostly strike last.

This problem is further compounded by the fact that they are trying to be good at shooting and close combat. They trade excellence in one area for mediocrity in both... They simply don't put out enough shots. 8 bolter shots and 2 kraks a turn, for 230 points? Maybe if the stormbolter was assault 3, or str 5 or something to make them more frightening at shooting than a 24" away tac squad. Look at other units that are feared for their shooting in this game. They tend to put out either high str, low ap or just buckets of shots. Termies do none of this.

I think tac termies are never really going to be a viable unit unless they focus more. I'd advocate power swords, or even non-power weapons in exchange for much more powerful shooting. We've got assault termies, they're fine. Let's have some shooting termies.


---------

Now on the topic of assault termies. I think they're fine. They are by no means an auto include. They are codex marines answer to deathstars/MCs in cc but other than that they're not great. Sure they're go through an ork mob slowly, but it's a big waste of points!

Ben Mobile is also one person. Hell even If TH/SS Termies based armies saturated tournament top tables like IG, GK and SW it wouldn't prove they're 'overpowered'. Think goodness armies can have good units. If whiners had their way all the codexes would beat each other with foam bats and rubber bullets.

DevianID wrote:Since the thread is all over the place, Ill just put in my 2 cents.

First, I like the idea of THSS termies paying 5 points more per model. As a BA player among other things, the extra cost from 200 to 225 is a signifigant change, but also a good one. This makes mixing Lclaws more attractive, as they should.

Furious Charge and FNP are what make LCs viable in a BA army... and are what drive the extra 5 points. 40 point TH/SS with FNP would be insanely tough to take down for the price and would almost be a no-brainer. And even in that book with more expensive TH/SS Terminators, Tactical Termies are very rarely taken. Tactical Termies (with the exception of BT) just do not have a well-defined, cost effective role in most armies, which is why they are not taken.

I am completely down with increasing the cost of TH/SS Termies in the Vanilla Dex to match that in the BA dex--if we get the cheaper Devestators and Riflemen Dreads that BA have. Different books are different...

I just want termies. Not Assault termies, not tactual termies, just terminators that can chose their loadout like SW. They're 1st Company vets yet they won't take a pair of LC and Cyclone launcher.

Agreed.

of course TH/SS is over powered.
Consider this, a shooty termite is 40 points. A TH/SS Termite is 40 points.

The difference: One has a storm bolter, one has a 3++, 2d6 for armor penetration and stuns things.

Before we get into the 2d6 penetration and the stuns, consider which is better. A storm bolter or a 3++ just alone. A storm bolter is what, 3-5points and even there it is overcosted. Is a 3++ only worth 5 points? No they cost 15 points.

TH/SS should cost 45-50 points.

Moreso, shooty termites and Chaos termites need a little something and it needs to be shooty. Not more heavy weapons, the heavy weapons are fine what they need is something shootier. Storm bolters should be assualt 3 or strength 5. Chaos twin linked bolters should also be better.

Thunder Hammers only get 1d6 for armor penetration.

Imo, they should drop the price on normal terminators.

EDIT:


Chaos Terminators get the option for Combi Weapons, so, I'm not really crying over them not getting the option of SS/TH. Not to mention they have the option to get 4+ Invuln saves, or +1 attack, or +1 Toughness...

Assault Terminators pay for the inability to customize with cheap SS. God forbid the vanilla marines get a good unit.

Dropping the price on tac termies wouldn’t solve the issue and it would create further balance problems as well as further encouraging power creep. I see no balance issues with tac termies, only a design flaw in that tac termies can’t swap their wargear like CSM/SW termies. If tac termies could their power fists for other options (like CSM/SW), more people would take them.

Rather than buffing everything else to be as good as TH/SS, the cleaner (and quicker) balance solution is to adjust TH/SS to be as good as everything else. I would recommend one of the following:

• Storm Shield Inv save reduced to 4++. No point cost change
• Storm Shield Inv save only works in CC. No point cost change
• Storm Shield Inv save unchanged. TH/SS cost increased to 50pts (applies to BA as well)

The Stormshields are the only elite choice in higher point games we have that are unique to Space Marines that aren't total ass.

You can nerf them if you want, but nerf other codices big elite units too.

External balance is a good point but actually a separate issue altogether.

You can’t really compare the vanilla book with any 5E codex that was created post BA as those codices were created with a radically different point costing system (probably to sell more models). Ideally the vanilla codex needs to be completely re-costed (alongside Tyranids codex as well), which would probably result in some of the more overpriced units such as vanguard vets and honour guard receiving a points reduction.

Also you have to take into account lower points games as well. Whilst a 3++ save might not seem too bad in a 2000pts/Apoc game, it has a greater impact in lower pts games, especially when you take into account the nonsense 5E rules for wound allocation as well as the excessive use of FNP in the newer codices.

candy.man wrote:Rather than buffing everything else to be as good as TH/SS, the cleaner (and quicker) balance solution is to adjust TH/SS to be as good as everything else. I would recommend one of the following:

• Storm Shield Inv save reduced to 4++. No point cost change
• Storm Shield Inv save only works in CC. No point cost change
• Storm Shield Inv save unchanged. TH/SS cost increased to 50pts (applies to BA as well)

Umm.... no. They are really fine as is from an overall balance standpoint. Yes, they look really good when compared to Tactical Terminators, but that is due to Tactical Terminators not having a role to fill and basically being overcosted for what they do in the current meta. Also, when you look at the Vanilla Marine book and how it fits with other books, you notice that TH/SS is one of the few units that they have that are NOT cheaper in other books. BAs get cheaper Devs, VGVs, and Riflemen. SWs get cheaper "Devs" and "Tacticals". Vanilla Marines are far from OP, so increasing the cost of TH/SS by 20% is just kicking them while they are "down" for no reason. Are people really getting decimated by TH/SS Termies? Are they that heinous give all the other nastyness that is out there? And let's be honest... anything that keeps Draigowing honest should be left alone.

Also you have to take into account lower points games as well. Whilst a 3++ save might not seem too bad in a 2000pts/Apoc game, it has a greater impact in lower pts games, especially when you take into account the nonsense 5E rules for wound allocation as well as the excessive use of FNP in the newer codices.

TH/SS Termies become less effective in smaller points games, simply because they do not score and require a very expensive transport to do anything useful.

You’ve made a few blanket statements there that I’m not going to comment on (as they’re very subjective). Using Draigowing as a point of measure isn’t a good idea either I’m afraid. Also the overall balance of the Vanilla marine book versus other codices is separate issue altogether (due to the latter 5E codices being point costed under a cheaper model) and belongs in a separate thread.

You will have to try harder if you’re to convince me otherwise as I’ve yet to hear a really good counter argument about SS and associated external balance specifically.

candy.man wrote:You’ve made a few blanket statements there that I’m not going to comment on (as they’re very subjective). Using Draigowing as a point of measure isn’t a good idea either I’m afraid. Also the overall balance of the Vanilla marine book versus other codices is separate issue altogether (due to the latter 5E codices being point costed under a cheaper model) and belongs in a separate thread.

You will have to try harder if you’re to convince me otherwise as I’ve yet to hear a really good counter argument about SS and associated external balance specifically.

It's ok, you are going to have to try harder to convince anyone that Storm Shields on Assault Terminators, of all things, need to be nerfed. They are fine as is, one person using them isn't proof they are over powered. They aren't carrying tournaments, and only two people on this forum seem to be crying about it.

I'm wasn't trying to convince people but rather present an alternate opinion in this thread. Not only that but most of the people in this thread have already made up their minds and are not likely to change anyway.

My parting shot is that you guys are too focused on the "internal balance" of the vanilla codex and using "external balance" with late 5E codices (it's choice picking facts). You also have to consider the mechanic itself of the 3++, the price of the unit versus others and as well as the minor impact of any sort of nerf.

Personally in the opinion that all Tactical TA needs a slight conceptual revamp. If they came with normal PWs, like the Wolf Guard TDA, with the option for PFs you could probably shave 5pts off. TH/SS by comparison could do with a pricing similar to their BA counterparts. They're not too OP, but I get the feeling that being the first codex of the edition has led to the pricing of many things being off-key compared to later releases, (e.g. 10pts for digital weapons and so on...)

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:It doesnt matter whether you can hide behind the SS or not. The physical structure of the shield houses energy field projectors. So you could wear it on your back and you should still be giving you a 3+ invul save.

Yeah, advocates of the 'only working in assault' tend to forget this. It's this element that provides the actual save, while the physical shield is used to house it. Also, 4++ in cc only rules would be like going back to useless 3E standards again... *ugh*

BrotherHaraldus wrote:I'm shocked by the sheer amount of replies to this thread, but here is more of my opinion.

There was a similar thread recently posted on Warseer. It's been on 15 pages now and is still going strong. I expect those statistics may be repeated here too.

candy.man wrote:My parting shot is that you guys are too focused on the "internal balance" of the vanilla codex and using "external balance" with late 5E codices (it's choice picking facts). You also have to consider the mechanic itself of the 3++, the price of the unit versus others and as well as the minor impact of any sort of nerf.

So internal balance doesn't matter... and being externally balanced with the current books is a BAD thing? You might think we are just cherry-picking facts, but at least we are using them. All I have seen as reasons to nerf TH/SS are things such as, "They are too hard to kill... I should be able to look at them and they die... My book doesn't get them.... waaaagh."

wow, assault marines vs term...units built to do two diffrent things, point cost are based on potential aswell, your talken AM built to own the board, get in and hit hard moving cover to cover,...then terms built to kill the big guys and tank the board.

at the same time assault terms kill biggedr single units, and reg terms kill horde with missile and storm bolters.

in short, stop complainni g, hit them with plasma cannons and make them cry, or take ur own

Exergy wrote:of course TH/SS is over powered.
Consider this, a shooty termite is 40 points. A TH/SS Termite is 40 points.

The difference: One has a storm bolter, one has a 3++, 2d6 for armor penetration and stuns things.

Before we get into the 2d6 penetration and the stuns, consider which is better. A storm bolter or a 3++ just alone. A storm bolter is what, 3-5points and even there it is overcosted. Is a 3++ only worth 5 points? No they cost 15 points.

TH/SS should cost 45-50 points.

Moreso, shooty termites and Chaos termites need a little something and it needs to be shooty. Not more heavy weapons, the heavy weapons are fine what they need is something shootier. Storm bolters should be assualt 3 or strength 5. Chaos twin linked bolters should also be better.

At least learn the rules before you start whining, ok?

Anyway, TH&SS termies are not OP or undercosted. They are costed just fine. Its the other stuff that is overcosted/crap. By no means is a squad of TH&SS termies a must have thing in the vanilla codex, tactical termies on the other hand is a big no no. The logical thing would then to make the "no no" unit an acceptable choice instead of making the decently priced option another "no no" option

TH/SS terminators are perfectly priced and balanced.

Tactical terminators are overpriced.


TH/SS terminators also need an expensive transport to get them into the fight. If they footslog it will take them way too long to get there. That puts a cap on their unit size unless they combat squad, which leaves one half hoofing it.

Perhaps it ought to be considered from the POV of other TEq units in the game. Wraiths, Meganobz, Wraithguard.

Meganobz I know are the exact same price as a Terminator. They are roughly equivalent, with tradeoffs to the Termie benefits and drawbacks. How much do you think it should cost to let a Meganob trade its twin-linked Shoota (which is slightly worse than a Stormbolter even discounting Ork shooting) for a 3++ save? Or two extra Wounds?

Or what about Wraiths, who come with a 3++, ignore terrain and have 2 Wounds? How much should an Assault 2 Strength 4 weapon cost for them? In addition to a Powerfist?

Yes, they're different units, but as I said, they have tradeoffs that do balance them- compared to Normal Termies. (also, by the way, Power Weapons are arguably better than Powerfists)

Meganobs for example have 2 wounds, can Sweep defeated enemies, have Furious Charge and can take Fast, open-topped Transports. But they have BS2, Init 2, have no options for faster weapons, Slow and Purposeful, and no invulnerable save. Tac termies have a built in 5++, the Sarge can take a Power Weapon, and they shoot better, while also being able to take a lot more gun options, in exchange for not being able to Sweep, and being restricted to Deep Strike and Land Raiders as transports.

And then Termies can swap for TH/SS. They lose nothing but 2 Strength 4 shots, and gain the ability to completely ignore 2/3 of all AP2 attacks, as well as the normal 5/6 of regular attacks. Thunderhammers? Those're fine.

In short, it's not so much that the Storm Shield is overpowered or undercosted, as that it's OP and UC on Terminators. SS on Marines or Scouts or Guardsmen is ABSOLUTELY fine. They just gain a permanent 3+ save. Dreds get that 3+ save against the few things that can hurt them. Even a 5 point cost would be fine for them, for Terminators. A Wargear option, like so many others.

Grey Templar wrote:TH/SS terminators are perfectly priced and balanced.

Tactical terminators are overpriced.


TH/SS terminators also need an expensive transport to get them into the fight. If they footslog it will take them way too long to get there. That puts a cap on their unit size unless they combat squad, which leaves one half hoofing it.

Or...they can deepstrike. And use their 2+ 3++ saves to weather the shooting.

Grey Templar wrote:TH/SS terminators are perfectly priced and balanced.

Sure, so are vendettas, long fangs, and purifiers.

Almost anyone taking them would still take them at 45pts. At 50pts they'd still be considered quite useable by most players. 2+/3++ sv, Ld9, Deep Strikeable, WS4 T4, 2A units with ATSKNF/CT and wielding S8 poweweapons that have additional effects are quite worth 50ppm in most people's eyes.

Tactical terminators are overpriced.

They weren't really seen so until the Stormshield gave a 3++sv for the same cost.

TH/SS terminators also need an expensive transport to get them into the fight. If they footslog it will take them way too long to get there.

Not always, many footslogging infantry units routinely get into combat turn 2 in many games, the transports isn't required to get TH/SS termi's to work, it just helps. LC termi's do need it to function properly, primarily for AP2 protection, but not TH/SS termi's.

That puts a cap on their unit size unless they combat squad, which leaves one half hoofing it.

Nobody takes/would take them in larger sized squads anyway (no need), so not really a loss.


The only reason that they aren't seen as a greater issue is that creep from subsequent books has overshadowed much of the rest of the codex. One will notice that they didn't make TH/SS termi's as cheap in subsequent books and they didn't repeat the same mistake with the GK codex (e.g. they gave them an option for a great invul save, but made it apply only in CC and restricted it's availability)

I may be off-topic here (not sure) but for me the biggest 3++ shield bonus comes out joined with Eternal Warrior. Those two should not go together as often/cheap as they do.
3++ just begs for herohammer which should stay in skirmish type games.

Vaktathi wrote:Almost anyone taking them would still take them at 45pts. At 50pts they'd still be considered quite useable by most players. 2+/3++ sv, Ld9, Deep Strikeable, WS4 T4, 2A units with ATSKNF/CT and wielding S8 poweweapons that have additional effects are quite worth 50ppm in most people's eyes.

BA TH/SS Termies are priced that way because FNP removes one of their major weaknesses, which is simply making them fail 2+ saves. If you took them to 50 ppm, you would never see them taken in either book. Go ahead and remove them from the codex at that point. 50 ppm is almost the same cost as Paladins...

My biggest question in all of this is what would the point of increasing the cost be? To see fewer TH/SS units taken? I would argue that they aren't even seen very much now, so why is it important to see them taken less? Is it to allow other units to be competitive? If so, wouldn't it be better to fix the problems with the other units so that they are viable rather than removing a solid choice and forcing Marines to take other, subpar choices?

How many EW models get a 3++ save?

Lysander, thats all I can think of.

Grey Templar wrote:How many EW models get a 3++ save?

Lysander, thats all I can think of.

And Draigo.

Th/ss termis are good but they are definetly not the best close combat squad in the game if they are charged they have 10 attacks at I1, that's not that much a beatstick. also in context they are the only universaly accepted good CC unit in the vanilla dex, why should they be nerfed? how would a SM handle GK at all without TH/SS termis? How would they handle BA or SW? Finailly as good as they are in CC they still have to get there (which requires a risky deepstrike or an expensive transport. Like I said Good but not great.

3++ is not too hard to cut through. So 5 cost 200pts for the same cost an eldar player can do the following:

20 storm guardians with warlock with enhance.

Good luck chewing through that!

They way i handle Terms is with the swarm of fire if they have storm shields. wasting a las-cannon on removing 1pt in the save isnt worth it. doing the math for every 6 wounds should kill one term, and if thats 25% losses they run away if they fail the ld test.

This is the 3rd post about terms and there shields...i HATE de and there dark lance spam, give you $1 if you can guess how i counter that...

Gornall wrote:
BA TH/SS Termies are priced that way because FNP removes one of their major weaknesses, which is simply making them fail 2+ saves. If you took them to 50 ppm, you would never see them taken in either book.

FNP isn't an *always on* ability with BA's, they have to have sanguinary priests and be within 6", neither of which are always present for BA TH/SS terminators. Assuming that FNP has any effect on their costing, as opposed the FNP being built into the cost of the 50pt 1W Sanguinary Priest, is rather silly. Why would such a cost increase not also apply to other terminators?

Go ahead and remove them from the codex at that point. 50 ppm is almost the same cost as Paladins...

Paladin's can't get an invul save better than 5+ against shooting and have to pay lots of points and/or give up higher init/str to get a better invul save in CC, in many ways they are easier to engage and destroy.

And lets not forget that TH/SS termi's on average will win combat against Paladin's quite handily due to that 3++ invul and inflicting ID on those 2 wound models.

In a C:SM army, what alternative for a heavy durable CC unit would you really have? Would you drop them and redesign the army, or would you find points elsewhere for the CC deathstar? Most people would go with the latter. If that's the case, then the unit is probably undercosted.

My biggest question in all of this is what would the point of increasing the cost be? To see fewer TH/SS units taken? I would argue that they aren't even seen very much now, so why is it important to see them taken less?

They are fairly ubiquitous with C:SM armies, C:BA has more assault alternatives so you don't see them as much, and they aren't very "Blood Angel-y" in many people's eyes. Really, the point would be to cost them appropriately relative to their abilities. Fewer TH/SS units wouldn't be a bad thing. They're a crutch unit, they're a point and click unit that all you need to do is direct them at a target and generally they reach it and destroy it without much effort or thought or recourse, and that's really never good for the game.

Vaktathi wrote:FNP isn't an *always on* ability with BA's, they have to have sanguinary priests and be within 6", neither of which are always present for BA TH/SS terminators. Assuming that FNP has any effect on their costing, as opposed the FNP being built into the cost of the 50pt 1W Sanguinary Priest, is rather silly. Why would such a cost increase not also apply to other terminators?

Regular Termies can still get punked by AP2 weapons, which is why them having FNP is less of an issue. The "ability" to get FNP, even from a 50 point 1W model is enough to warrant the 5 extra points for TH/SS models.

In a C:SM army, what alternative for a heavy durable CC unit would you really have? Would you drop them and redesign the army, or would you find points elsewhere for the CC deathstar? Most people would go with the latter. If that's the case, then the unit is probably undercosted.

Dropping points from the support units in the army to afford more points for a CC deathstar would simply make the list more unbalanced. 50 points might not seem like much, but it's a MM AB, most of a Landspeeder, two Sternguard, or some vital upgrades for other units. I personally would scrap the TH/SS completely from my list and focus on more MSU/shooty elements.

They are fairly ubiquitous with C:SM armies, C:BA has more assault alternatives so you don't see them as much, and they aren't very "Blood Angel-y" in many people's eyes.

TH/SS are taken in SM armies because they are the ONLY viable assault unit that book has. Making them less cost effective is simply going to remove that final option and NOT cause other people to bring the terrible units such as Honorguard and VGVs. In BAs, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Honorguard, and VGVs (not to mention the basic assault squads) can be viable assault threats. That (and the extra 5 points) is why you don't see TH/SS taken as much in that book.

Fewer TH/SS units wouldn't be a bad thing. They're a crutch unit, they're a point and click unit that all you need to do is direct them at a target and generally they reach it and destroy it without much effort or thought or recourse, and that's really never good for the game.

If they are such a "point and click" unit, then you would see them in every list. If your local meta is so overrun with TH/SS that you view them as such, then I feel for you... but that is far from the norm. They are a solid option, but far from OP. They die to bolters just fine and can be swamped by any number of horde units. They fill a much required niche in the SM book (anti-deathstar), and if they are made more expensive without some sort of compensation by other units, then that is going to limit the builds for that codex... which is "never good for the game.

Gornall wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:How many EW models get a 3++ save?

Lysander, thats all I can think of.

And Draigo.

And Arjac.

Gornall wrote:
Regular Termies can still get punked by AP2 weapons, which is why them having FNP is less of an issue. The "ability" to get FNP, even from a 50 point 1W model is enough to warrant the 5 extra points for TH/SS models.

Why are they the only units in the entire codex that pay this? Certainly if they're paying it, it should be worth *something* to other units? At that rate, it's almost calculated as if they actually *had* FNP, not as if it's a mere potential.

If the mere potential of FNP is worth extra points on TH/SS termi's, it's worth something for other termi's given that it functions only in the case of an armor save that they all share. Failing armor saves is not a weakness of TH/SS termi's that's somehow unique to them or some exploitable weakness, they're no easier to kill that way than normal terminators are.

It's really funky game design there to simply cost one unit for it's potential to get an ability, rather than cost the unit that actually gives the ability appropriately and/or not cost any other unit in the book for the "potential" to get that ability.

Dropping points from the support units in the army to afford more points for a CC deathstar would simply make the list more unbalanced. 50 points might not seem like much, but it's a MM AB, most of a Landspeeder, two Sternguard, or some vital upgrades for other units.

Yup.

I personally would scrap the TH/SS completely from my list and focus on more MSU/shooty elements.

That'd be part of the general aim, to see less of them, however at the same time, many lists built around such a unit would likely still take them and drop points from elsewhere.

TH/SS are taken in SM armies because they are the ONLY viable assault unit that book has.

Are they really the *only* viable option, or merely seem so because of their cost?

In BAs, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, Honorguard, and VGVs (not to mention the basic assault squads) can be viable assault threats.

Right, I said that.

If they are such a "point and click" unit, then you would see them in every list. If your local meta is so overrun with TH/SS that you view them as such, then I feel for you... but that is far from the norm.

In my experience in more than one metro area, amongst C:SM armies, they're fairly ubiquitous, especially before a whole bunch of C:SM players jumped ship for C:BA and C:SW. If they aren't a gunline of some sort or a heavily themed army of some sort, they've almost always got a unit of TH/SS termi's, and Tac termi's and LC termi's have gone basically extinct.

They die to bolters just fine

On average it takes 108 BS4 bolter shots to kill a 5man terminator squad of any sort. That's going about it the hard way, exactly what they are designed to be durable against.

They fill a much required niche in the SM book (anti-deathstar), and if they are made more expensive without some sort of compensation by other units, then that is going to limit the builds for that codex... which is "never good for the game.

When they become a "default" unit, and preclude the taking of alternatives, that limits the builds for a codex and reduces the variety and complexity of the game.

Vaktathi wrote:Why are they the only units in the entire codex that pay this? Certainly if they're paying it, it should be worth *something* to other units? At that rate, it's almost calculated as if they actually *had* FNP, not as if it's a mere potential.

If the mere potential of FNP is worth extra points on TH/SS termi's, it's worth something for other termi's given that it functions only in the case of an armor save that they all share. Failing armor saves is not a weakness of TH/SS termi's that's somehow unique to them or some exploitable weakness, they're no easier to kill that way than normal terminators are.

The reason I argue that TH/SS pay a higher "FNP tax" is that TH/SS Terminators with FNP cannot be torrented down effectively and pumping AP2 shots into them is not that effective either. I am not saying that torrenting TH/SS is a unique weakness they have and other units don't. I am just saying that it is the biggest weakness they have, and removing it makes them a much more formidable unit. The other units can still die to AP2, so FNP helps them, but not quite as much as TH/SS Termies. Yes, it is not "always" on, but it is close enough.

That'd be part of the general aim, to see less of them, however at the same time, many lists built around such a unit would likely still take them and drop points from elsewhere.

So kill options because you think they are taken "too much?" (Which is not the case in my experience) And lists built around them become unviable because they really aren't that great now at the current price.

Are they really the *only* viable option, or merely seem so because of their cost?

Only viable unit... period. Honorguard are "assault units" with I4 and no Invulnerable Save. They get punked by almost every other assault unit in the game. They also can do jack squat to vehicles. LC Termies suffer from the same problem, but are also require an expensive transport and don't even have grenades to even threaten a Rhino. VGVs are grossly overpriced and do not fill any role that bolter Tactical Marines couldn't do better/cheaper. Cost has some to do with all of those, but the big unifying theme is that they all "solve" problems that Marines don't really have or don't do anything useful in the current meta.

In my experience in more than one metro area, amongst C:SM armies, they're fairly ubiquitous, especially before a whole bunch of C:SM players jumped ship for C:BA and C:SW. If they aren't a gunline of some sort or a heavily themed army of some sort, they've almost always got a unit of TH/SS termi's, and Tac termi's and LC termi's have gone basically extinct.

Sorry... I just haven't seen it in multiple venues/metas in three different states. I see them in some lists and not in others, which is the mark of a good, viable unit. I haven't been to any GTs yet, but I don't see TH/SS Termies dominating in any of the batreps I have seen from large events. You seem to argue that Tac Termies and LC Termies aren't taken because TH/SS Termies are so good. I argue that is not the case. Tac Termies and LC Termies are not taken because they do not fill a useful role. If TH/SS Termies were completely removed from the book, Tactical Termies and LC Termies would not be taken any more than they are now. They do NOT fill the same role as TH/SS Termies. The TH/SS role is much more relevant in the current meta, which is why you see them more.

On average it takes 90 BS4 bolter shots to kill a 5man terminator squad of any sort. That's going about it the hard way, exactly what they are designed to be durable against.

It takes the same number of shots to kill a 10 Man Tactical Squad. What's your point? If you think that dumping AP2 shots into TH/SS Termies is the "easy" way to kill them, then no wonder you think they need to be more expensive. You are playing into their strength. They are DESIGNED to be durable against AP2 shots and PWs. Unless you can get 1 AP2 shot/PW attack for every 2 normal attacks, then you are better off just swamping their 2+ save versus their 3++.

When they become a "default" unit, and preclude the taking of alternatives, that limits the builds for a codex and reduces the variety and complexity of the game.

They are NOT a default unit. That's what I don't understand, I guess. You don't see them in even a majority of lists. I can understand that you feel they are the default assault unit for SM, and I would agree there. However, that is because the other options suck, plain and simple. Nerfing TH/SS Termies isn't going to fix that. It's just going to push all Space Marine lists into shooty, MSU builds if they want to be effective.

Gornall wrote:
The reason I argue that TH/SS pay a higher "FNP tax" is that TH/SS Terminators with FNP cannot be torrented down effectively and pumping AP2 shots into them is not that effective either. I am not saying that torrenting TH/SS is a unique weakness they have and other units don't. I am just saying that it is the biggest weakness they have, and removing it makes them a much more formidable unit. The other units can still die to AP2, so FNP helps them, but not quite as much as TH/SS Termies. Yes, it is not "always" on, but it is close enough.

I'm not seeing how torrenting them down and forcing them to take 2+sv's is any more effective than it is against other Terminator units, or how it's the biggest weakness they have (it's not much of a weakness)), or how that warrants paying extra points nothing else in the codex has to pay for, for an ability that comes from another Elites unit that may or may not be present and in range. GW has never described designing costs in anything resembling that manner.

By this logic, shouldn't LC termi's also pay more for the *potential* ability of Furious Charge since it likewise augments their offensive power in a manner similar to how FNP augments defensive abilities, perhaps moreso? One will notice they do not.

So kill options because you think they are taken "too much?" (Which is not the case in my experience) And lists built around them become unviable because they really aren't that great now at the current price.

They are taken "too much" because they are quite simply so cheap for what they do as to make alternatives pointless. They crowd out the other options because of their cost. Why take any other assault unit when point for point TH/SS terminators will do it just as well or better even if noticeably increased in cost?

Only viable unit... period. Honorguard are "assault units" with I4 and no Invulnerable Save. They get punked by almost every other assault unit in the game. They also can do jack squat to vehicles. LC Termies suffer from the same problem, but are also require an expensive transport and don't even have grenades to even threaten a Rhino. VGVs are grossly overpriced and do not fill any role that bolter Tactical Marines couldn't do better/cheaper. Cost has some to do with all of those, but the big unifying theme is that they all "solve" problems that Marines don't really have or don't do anything useful in the current meta.

Assault marines, bikes, dreads, etc?

Notice most people don't complain about LC termi's being ineffective the way they often do Tac marines. Sure they can't hurt vehicles, but they put out greatly increased wound output against most infantry units due to a greater number of attacks. Few people complain about their ability. The problem is that TH/SS terminators are just so survivable and versatile for their cost as to make them pointless. The TH/SS termi's are able to engage everything and survive with greater certainty and thus make alternatives pointless in most cases. They can be included and pointed at most things and reliably be expected to survive and engage and likely destroy their target no matter what for the same cost as any other alternative. They don't require any ability to use them effectively aside from pointing them at a target and moving towards it, they don't have to worry about cover, they don't have to worry as much about getting off the charge or not, they don't have to worry about the type of target unless it's a large weeny horde unit, etc. You just point them, they go, likely survive, and smash it, and even for 5 or 10ppm more, and cutting the cost on many alternatives, they'd still be preferable. That 3++sv means everything in this game.

Sorry... I just haven't seen it in multiple venues/metas in three different states. I see them in some lists and not in others, which is the mark of a good, viable unit. I haven't been to any GTs yet, but I don't see TH/SS Termies dominating in any of the batreps I have seen from large events. You seem to argue that Tac Termies and LC Termies aren't taken because TH/SS Termies are so good. I argue that is not the case. Tac Termies and LC Termies are not taken because they do not fill a useful role. If TH/SS Termies were completely removed from the book, Tactical Termies and LC Termies would not be taken any more than they are now. They do NOT fill the same role as TH/SS Termies. The TH/SS role is much more relevant in the current meta, which is why you see them more.

Tac termi's have issues in that they're a confused unit that had most of what made them work removed in the changeover from 2nd to 3rd edition (powerfists didn't reduce initative, stormbolters were much scarier, they had increased abilities to hit enemies due to getting positive BS modifiers for sophisticated targeting equipment, etc). LC termi's were much beloved last edition, they didn't change much. The problem is that nobody takes them over the 3++sv TH/SS termi's unless they can get Furious Charge and/or are cheaper to counterbalance the survivability, so you don't see them in C:SM armies, though you do see them in BA and BT armies quite often (though more and more BT armies have switched to Tac Termi's since they got FAQ'd to be able to take double 2-shot cheap Cyclones).

On average it takes 90 BS4 bolter shots to kill a 5man terminator squad of any sort.

90 yes, sorry, bad math on my part.

It takes the same number of shots to kill a 10 Man Tactical Squad. What's your point?

The tac squad will more reliably however take casualties in general and doesn't hit as hard. Most people also don't rely on pure volume of fire for always dealing with tac squads, between ordnance weapons, plasma weaponry, powerweapons, armies often pack a large number of weapons that are designed to engage such units in a such a way as to negate their armor save, *because* they are so resistant to high AP fire.

If you think that dumping AP2 shots into TH/SS Termies is the "easy" way to kill them then no wonder you think they need to be more expensive. You are playing into their strength. They are DESIGNED to be durable against AP2 shots and PWs.

I'm not saying it's the easy way to kill them. I'm saying they still die easier to AP2 fire than bolter fire, I'm not saying can routinely get the same volume of fire to make it worth it.

And that's the problem. There is no easy way to kill them. They're too resistant to enemy fire/attacks in general. That's what makes them such a mindlessly easy to use and popular unit. They make the one reliable method of engaging 2+sv units unreliable.

As long as that is the case, if TH/SS terminators are the same cost as LC/Tac termi's, if the TH/SS termi's can just waltz through defenses that would stop other terminators for the same cost, then they will be the default choice.

They are NOT a default unit. That's what I don't understand, I guess. You don't see them in even a majority of lists.

Again, aside from gunline/theme lists, my experience is very much that you do see them in the majority of lists that don't fall under those previously aforementioned types.

I can understand that you feel they are the default assault unit for SM, and I would agree there. However, that is because the other options suck, plain and simple. Nerfing TH/SS Termies isn't going to fix that. It's just going to push all Space Marine lists into shooty, MSU builds if they want to be effective.

That could be a potential side effect, but at the same time, at any point TH/SS termi's are getting changed, so likely is other stuff in the book. Either way, TH/SS terminators are too effective for their cost, and there are other assault units in the book that really aren't as bad as people make them out to be, and they shouldn't be an excuse for TH/SS terminators not getting a cost increase they truly should have.

Vaktathi wrote:And that's the problem. There is no easy way to kill them. They're too resistant to enemy fire/attacks in general. That's what makes them such a mindlessly easy to use and popular unit. They make the one reliable method of engaging 2+sv units unreliable.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I kill TH/SS Termies quite effectively with good, old-fashioned bolters. They might eat a sacrificial squad before they go down, but generally they die at a rate fitting of their points cost.

Again, aside from gunline/theme lists, my experience is very much that you do see them in the majority of lists that don't fall under those previously aforementioned types.

I guess I don't understand what you are saying here. If an SM list isn't a shooty list, it has TH/SS Termies? Agreed.... Because they are the only cost effective assault unit in the Vanilla SM book. I already mentioned why I think the other options are bad, so I am just going to say that TH/SS have a role that fits the meta. LC Termies, VGVs, and Honorguard do not. But majority of effective SM lists veer towards the shooty side, anyway.

What types of effective SM lists are there? You can run a MSU gunline, Drop Pods, Bikes, Vulcan (with or without TH/SS Termies), a "Battleforce" list (e.g. Ben Mohlie), or the occasional double-rock list (which is really not all that effective). Very few of those utilize TH/SS Termies.

That could be a potential side effect, but at the same time, at any point TH/SS termi's are getting changed, so likely is other stuff in the book. Either way, TH/SS terminators are too effective for their cost, and there are other assault units in the book that really aren't as bad as people make them out to be, and they shouldn't be an excuse for TH/SS terminators not getting a cost increase they truly should have.

While I disagree that TH/SS are "too effective" for their points cost, I would be fine with the price being increased so long as other components of the SM book were made viable. As a standalone "nerf them now" option, with no other adjustments... there just isn't any point. You are simply removing options from a book that is already showing its age.

Gornall wrote:While I disagree that TH/SS are "too effective" for their points cost, I would be fine with the price being increased so long as other components of the SM book were made viable. As a standalone "nerf them now" option, with no other adjustments... there just isn't any point. You are simply removing options from a book that is already showing its age.

I already mentioned this suggestion in the previous page. The best approach IMO would be a “significant” points increase for TH/SS alongside a “significant” points decrease for Vanguard Veterans and Honour Guard.

candy.man wrote:I already mentioned this suggestion in the previous page. The best approach IMO would be a “significant” points increase for TH/SS alongside a “significant” points decrease for Vanguard Veterans and Honour Guard.

Points are only a small part of the equation. If you do not give those units useful roles or niches that mesh with the meta, then it wouldn't solve the problem.

I think your getting a little side tracked here. You’ll have to admit defeat here in the sense that the codex is never going to have 100% perfect external balance without also overhauling all codices and the rulesets simultaneously. The best we can do is fix specific balance issues within codices and TH/SS is one of them.

The units mentioned in my earlier post already have roles and niches. There’s nothing wrong with Vanguard and Honour Guard aside for the 4th Edition point costing that was used on them (especially compared to the ridiculous point costing used for the GK book). Also, as Vaktathi has already mentioned, part of the reason why no one uses these units is because TH/SS are far cheaper and more cost effective which in turn, is actually the side effect of inconsistent point costing.

I think we should move on from “philosophical discussions” as this isn’t the forums to do so. This is a proposed rules forums so we should move onto actually proposing rules and discussing balance. Anyone who doesn’t want to propose or discuss proposed rules should leave this thread. I’ll start:

Assault Terminators
• Base point cost reduced to 30pts
• Base Wargear changed to Power weapon and Storm Bolter.
• May Swap a power weapon for a lightning claw or thunder hammer for 10pts
• May swap Stormbolter for a Storm Shield for 10pts
• May swap power weapon and storm bolter with twin lightning claws for 10pts.

Balance Analysis:
• Players are still able to purchase a cheap SS based tarpit unit at 40pts per model.
• TH/SS as a combination has been suitably increased in pts.
• Unit now has greater wargear flexibility.

Someone else can suggest the amendments to Vanguard and Honour Guard as I don’t have my codex on me.

VV need to have Jump Packs standard with option to swap them for a free Rhino/Drop Pod OR they need a good 10 point decrease.

What kills Vanguard for me is the price of their upgrades including the price of the jump pack upgrade (they pay through the nose for all their upgrades and have no way to compete with the cost effectiveness of 40pt TH/SS).

Using Grey Templar’s great suggestion, I propose the following for Vanguard:

• Jump packs included in base wargear with option to swap for Free Rhino/Drop Pod
• Price of all Vanguard CC upgrades reduced by around 2-5pts.

This is better! Now we are actually talking about how we could change the rules not arguing about them.
I like your idea about the Terminators Candy.Man, it makes more sense.

I think that Honour Guard/Command Squads should have access to jump packs, and that VGVs should cost a couple of points more but come with jump packs

candy.man wrote:Assault Terminators
• Base point cost reduced to 30pts
• Base Wargear changed to Power weapon and Storm Bolter.
• May Swap a power weapon for a lightning claw or thunder hammer for 10pts
• May swap Stormbolter for a Storm Shield for 10pts
• May swap power weapon and storm bolter with twin lightning claws for 10pts.

Balance Analysis:
• Players are still able to purchase a cheap SS based tarpit unit at 40pts per model.
• TH/SS as a combination has been suitably increased in pts.
• Unit now has greater wargear flexibility.

Someone else can suggest the amendments to Vanguard and Honour Guard as I don’t have my codex on me.

I like it, but I think they need an option to buy a PF for 5 points and a chainfist for 10 points. Honorguard either need an invulnerable save, a higher WS, or higher I.

I agree with Gornall, Honour Guard should be bumped up to WS 5

WS5 sounds like a nice tweak for honour guard. It would give them the small boost that they need.

The issue here is that Power Weapons are arguably better than PFists/TH. It's at-initiative ignoring armour, which, with Init 4, means they're completely chewing through most things.

Keep the points at 40 standard (which is the standard for TEq units) and leave them their PFist. THammer should be either a free swap or 1 or 2 point upgrade, with the SS being a 5 or 10 point upgrade.

Honestly I would rather have power weapons than powerfists for my Terminators

redkommando wrote:Honestly I would rather have power weapons than powerfists for my Terminators

^ Agree 100% This is one thing I really like about Chaos Space Marines (but I would like to see their weapon options be expanded)

This is one thing I really like about Chaos Space Marines (but I would like to see their weapon options be expanded)

If you could choose, what weapon options would you give to them?

redkommando wrote:Honestly I would rather have power weapons than powerfists for my Terminators

Yeah... but you still need the option to have PFs anyway, if for no other reason than most Terminators already out there are built with them. If they were a free swap that would be even better, but paying 5 points wouldn't be unreasonable. And Chainfists are much better heavy vehicle/walker killers than THs, so are another needed option.

Honorguard would be great if they were WS5 and could be taken by Captains or Librarians. Force Dome really helps them out, but it's pretty hard to fit a Chapter Master, a Libby, and Honorguard in the same list without it being a large, yet fragile rock. (Not a Fraggle Rock, though.)

Honorguard would be great if they were WS5 and could be taken by Captains or Librarians. Force Dome really helps them out, but it's pretty hard to fit a Chapter Master, a Libby, and Honorguard in the same list without it being a large, yet fragile rock. (Not a Fraggle Rock, though.)

I think Command Squads should be able to be taken by Captains, Librarians and Chaplains. I understand the fact Honour Guards only being taken by Chapter Masters, because the were created to protect him.

As an aside, I don't get why the Chapter Champion can replace his Bolter with a Combat Blade, be cause he already has a Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol, so he doesn't get any benefit from swapping the Bolter.

Would people pay 150pts for VGVs if the already came with Jump Packs, considering they are 125pts now??

redkommando wrote:I think Command Squads should be able to be taken by Captains, Librarians and Chaplains. I understand the fact Honour Guards only being taken by Chapter Masters, because the were created to protect him.

Agreed about the Command Squads. However, I thought the role of the Honorguard was to protect the Banner as much as the Chapter Master. I could be wrong about that though. While fluff-wise it might make sense to have them only allowed with Chapter Masters, but gamewise they require a medicore character to unlock, so they really should have a slight points reduction.

redkommando wrote:

Honorguard would be great if they were WS5 and could be taken by Captains or Librarians. Force Dome really helps them out, but it's pretty hard to fit a Chapter Master, a Libby, and Honorguard in the same list without it being a large, yet fragile rock. (Not a Fraggle Rock, though.)

I think Command Squads should be able to be taken by Captains, Librarians and Chaplains. I understand the fact Honour Guards only being taken by Chapter Masters, because the were created to protect him.

As an aside, I don't get why the Chapter Champion can replace his Bolter with a Combat Blade, be cause he already has a Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol, so he doesn't get any benefit from swapping the Bolter.

Would people pay 150pts for VGVs if the already came with Jump Packs, considering they are 125pts now??

No, I'd pay for them if they cost the same as Sternguard base, and cost the same as Sternguard with 10 men, since they don't get special ammo and instead get Jump Packs.

With slightly cheaper wargear options, too.

No, I'd pay for them if they cost the same as Sternguard base, and cost the same as Sternguard with 10 men, since they don't get special ammo and instead get Jump Packs.

With slightly cheaper wargear options, too.

So still 125pts but they come with Jump packs?
Yea fair call, that would be good

TBH, the problem with hammernators is that they are the only unit that really lacks a weakness. Paladins die to Vindicators, Guardsmen die to flamers, Terminators die to plasma, but how do you kill hammernators?

Those that whine about them having to take an expensive transport, well, ever heard of deep strike?

Footslogging works too, I should know, I used to play Orks.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Those that whine about them having to take an expensive transport, well, ever heard of deep strike?

But then they can't assault out of deep strike, making them one hell of a bullet magnet for a turn. We all know that a high volume of fire will take them down eventually.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:TBH, the problem with hammernators is that they are the only unit that really lacks a weakness. Paladins die to Vindicators, Guardsmen die to flamers, Terminators die to plasma, but how do you kill hammernators?

Those that whine about them having to take an expensive transport, well, ever heard of deep strike?

Footslogging works too, I should know, I used to play Orks.

Now I think I understand why you are whining about the storm shields. You kill the Hammernators the same way you kill normal termies, with volume of fire/attacks. If you used to play Orks I find it quite depressing that you do not know how much hamernators sucks against normal boyz.

As for the deep strik comment, are you serious? You want to depstrike the squad, then be forced to not assault for a turn and in the next turn youll have a 12" threat range... Yeah I think Ill pass on that tactic...

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols

redkommando wrote:

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols

The dark angel deathwing terms only come in squads of 5

The dark angel deathwing terms only come in squads of 5

Really? that cheating bastard

redkommando wrote:

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols

Normal Terminators don't have +1 attack with PF, bad wording on my part, with assualt termies, the dual PF option grants a second attack in CC. Which TH/SS termies don't have.

SSMaxRose wrote:

redkommando wrote:

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols

Normal Terminators don't have +1 attack with PF, bad wording on my part, with assualt termies, the dual PF option grants a second attack in CC. Which TH/SS termies don't have.

What dual PF option?

Not in my Vanilla codex.

Grey Templar wrote:

SSMaxRose wrote:

redkommando wrote:

I don't see a problem with the current TH/SS setup with terminators. The 3++ save negates the loss of the extra attack gained by the PF, however no ranged attacks are possible. So it comes down to if you want survivability, ranged, or attacks. Each have there advantages and disadvantages. SS can be easily be countered with a barrage of ranged attacks, and even CC if all the terminators can be wiped out before their assault turn.

Um. . . PFs don't grant an extra attack, TH/SS and shooty Terminators have the same amount of attacks.

But your last statement is true, Iv'e killed a squad of 8 Deathwing Terminators with TH/SS in one turn with a squad of Death Company with CCW and Bolt Pistols

Normal Terminators don't have +1 attack with PF, bad wording on my part, with assualt termies, the dual PF option grants a second attack in CC. Which TH/SS termies don't have.

What dual PF option?

Not in my Vanilla codex.

Agreed, where is that coming from??

Is he thinking perhaps of Lightning Claws or dual Thunder Hammers?

Is he thinking perhaps of Lightning Claws or dual Thunder Hammers?

Terminators with dual Hammers, that would look awesome

I thought about it a bit, since we where talking about SM codex balance, and maybe in the future:

Chapter Masters - Points stay the same, but they get Artificer Armor base. As well, drop the price of them taking Terminator Armour. This means that Orbital Bombardment only costs 10pts for a one shot special ability, and they get the best protection their chapter can offer, as befits them.

Honour Guard - Points tweaking. not going to suggest any numbers, but, they need to go down.

Devastators - Price drop.

Assault/Vanguard Marines - Price drop. Give Vanguard veterans the options to take Dual Lightning Claws for reduced points (+15 or so, instead of 30 like it is now. Make Jump Packs base.)

Stormshield/Thunder Hammer Terminators then could have a small price hike, maybe +5-10 ppm.

If they had artificer armor base then TDA should be practically free because the only thing they would get out of that would be relentless.

They have a 4+ invuln standard and Art armor gives a 2+

TDA would only have relentless to offer, and deep strike but thats not really much.

What if they made Storm Shields 3++ in close combat, but 4++ against shooting

Anvildude wrote:Is he thinking perhaps of Lightning Claws or dual Thunder Hammers?

Yes, Assault terminators come default with dual lightning claws, which grant the extra attack in close combat.

The problem with changing the Storm Shields themselves is that you have so many Marine armies that use that wargear, meaning errata for several books would be required and the points values in other books would no longer be accurate.

The best thing to do would be to simply change Assault Terminators so that by default they start with Lightning Claws, to which you can upgrade for a SS/PW for 5 points per model, SS/PF for 10 points per model, or SS/TH or SS/CF for 15 points per model. This way there is a definite trade-off, you're losing +1 Attack and taking on more points for the benefit of added survivability (and lethality, depending on how many more points you're willing to spend). Simple solution. I don't know about you guys but I'd still take SS/TH Termies for 55 points a shot, but the choice wouldn't be as obvious or clear-cut as it is now when compared to Tactical Terminators or to Lightning Claw-equipped Assault Terminators. Even for a squad of five Assault Terminators with SS/TH, that adds up to 75 extra points right there (almost enough for another Tactical Squad).

However I do think Tactical Terminators could use some love too. Would like to see them dropped to 35 points per model and be equipped with Storm Bolters and Power Weapons, allowing upgrades into Power Fists/Thunder Hammers/Chainfists for increasing points costs (I like options).

Marik Law wrote:The problem with changing the Storm Shields themselves is that you have so many Marine armies that use that wargear, meaning errata for several books would be required and the points values in other books would no longer be accurate.

The best thing to do would be to simply change Assault Terminators so that by default they start with Lightning Claws, to which you can upgrade for a SS/PW for 5 points per model, SS/PF for 10 points per model, or SS/TH or SS/CF for 15 points per model. This way there is a definite trade-off, you're losing +1 Attack and taking on more points for the benefit of added survivability (and lethality, depending on how many more points you're willing to spend). Simple solution. I don't know about you guys but I'd still take SS/TH Termies for 55 points a shot, but the choice wouldn't be as obvious or clear-cut as it is now when compared to Tactical Terminators or to Lightning Claw-equipped Assault Terminators. Even for a squad of five Assault Terminators with SS/TH, that adds up to 75 extra points right there (almost enough for another Tactical Squad).

However I do think Tactical Terminators could use some love too. Would like to see them dropped to 35 points per model and be equipped with Storm Bolters and Power Weapons, allowing upgrades into Power Fists/Thunder Hammers/Chainfists for increasing points costs (I like options).

Hmmm I like those ideas, esp. the last one about the Tactical Terminators.
IIRC the assault terminators in the 3rd edition codex started with stormbolters and powerfists and then you could upgarde tham from there

I'd take +10pts for SS/TH at most, but if SS/PF is cheaper, why wouldn't everyone just take PFs and accept that you won't get to shake tanks automatically? >.>

+5 pts for SS/PW, +10 for SS/TH.

Like the Idea for tactical terminators, though. drop the price on their wargear upgrades, too, because currently +20 pts for a Missile Launcher is crazy. (even if it can shoot twice)

I'd like to see storm shields as 4++ and counts as defensive grenades. It tones down the invul just a little, while giving back a slight boost in combat.

Ideally, I'd like to see lightning claws as an effective assault options, Thunder/shield as a counter assault/holding unit and normal terminators as a viable combined arms unit. I wouldn't mind seeing terminators getting the 2nd weapon choice back. Alternatively, make 1 unit of shooty terminators scoring/troops with terminator captain. Give me some reason to run those guys.

-Matt

Nice ideas Matt. Never come across the notion of shields as defensive grenades before but it genuinely feels reasonable. Will have to remember it for any future fandexes,

Crazyterran wrote:I'd take +10pts for SS/TH at most, but if SS/PF is cheaper, why wouldn't everyone just take PFs and accept that you won't get to shake tanks automatically? >.>

+5 pts for SS/PW, +10 for SS/TH.

Like the Idea for tactical terminators, though. drop the price on their wargear upgrades, too, because currently +20 pts for a Missile Launcher is crazy. (even if it can shoot twice)

Clyclones are 30 points.