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Post by: homsikpanda
i've got a warhound that i want to incorperate into my tau army 
should i just use the stock weapons/rules and pretend the tau reversed engineered a warhound and built their own?
or make some new rules for it?
i was thinking for example replacing the laser destructor with a heavy twinlinked railgun (like those on the tigershark ax )
but i mean if i'm going to replace one thing i should replace all of them (all the weapons anyway) but i can't think of what to do for the other 2 weapons (the flamer i'd keep the same as the tau use flamethrowers )
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Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha
just use it as a Tau Allied human warhound, so you dont abuse a wonderful forgeworld model with alot of modifications, unless you want to do that.
The Tau empire has many planets with humans that fight alongside their forces, so no real reason to modifiy it, just give it a cool Tau-ish paint scheme. 
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Post by: chrisrawr
Some Titan fluff, along with Iron Men; http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=201870
Just remember that the Tau can probably find a Titan fairly easily if they were looking for one, and I wouldn't put it past them to coax its AI out of huddled madness and fear with some drones.
If you go with the 'We found it and drone'd it" route, giving it Ld7 and some morale rules could be.... interesting
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Post by: Kepora
chrisrawr wrote:Some Titan fluff, along with Iron Men; http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=201870
Just remember that the Tau can probably find a Titan fairly easily if they were looking for one, and I wouldn't put it past them to coax its AI out of huddled madness and fear with some drones.
If you go with the 'We found it and drone'd it" route, giving it Ld7 and some morale rules could be.... interesting
Well, Titan's comptuers are big enough/have enough room to be upgraded that multiple drone AIs could be netwroked together a la the Geth from Mass Effect, essentially making it smarter with each drone AI that gets added. And with all the room inside of a warhound... 
I'd recommend removing all the rivets and such, and try to "streamline" it a bit (if it's unnecessary, it goes). Somehtign that MIGHT work si that you could say the original head was ejected, and cut up a Devilfish to use for the new "head", even add some small weapons to it or some cool sensor arrays (like take the tops of the burst cannon/ SMS turrets, add upside-down battlesuit heads or the sensors form Land Raider sponsons, then add some Tau-ish antennae to them)
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Post by: homsikpanda
hmmm ok makes sense
ok then next question!
what do you think the pilots would look like?
air caste?
fire caste?
earth caste?
i was thinking i could use either air case pilots from forge world models (the various planes or the orca etc etc )
or pirahna pilots..and ifi use pirahna pilots i can use the tank commander from forge world and various vehicles (devilfish, hammerhead etc etc ) aswell
Kepora wrote:chrisrawr wrote:Some Titan fluff, along with Iron Men; http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=201870
Just remember that the Tau can probably find a Titan fairly easily if they were looking for one, and I wouldn't put it past them to coax its AI out of huddled madness and fear with some drones.
If you go with the 'We found it and drone'd it" route, giving it Ld7 and some morale rules could be.... interesting
Well, Titan's comptuers are big enough/have enough room to be upgraded that multiple drone AIs could be netwroked together a la the Geth from Mass Effect, essentially making it smarter with each drone AI that gets added. And with all the room inside of a warhound...
I'd recommend removing all the rivets and such, and try to "streamline" it a bit (if it's unnecessary, it goes). Somehtign that MIGHT work si that you could say the original head was ejected, and cut up a Devilfish to use for the new "head", even add some small weapons to it or some cool sensor arrays (like take the tops of the burst cannon/ SMS turrets, add upside-down battlesuit heads or the sensors form Land Raider sponsons, then add some Tau-ish antennae to them)
i like the original head though :c
maybe add some tau antena errays though...
oh oh oh oh!!! ,make a warhound sized antenna like on the heads of the battlesuits! and then a shoulder guard like on the fire warriors, add in a jumbo sized bonding knife and GUESS WHO THE NEW KID ON THE BLOCK IS!
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Post by: Coolyo294
This is an awful idea.
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Post by: homsikpanda
Coolyo294 wrote:This is an awful idea.
which idea? there are several ideas portrayed in the thread D: be more specific D:
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Post by: Coolyo294
homsikpanda wrote:Coolyo294 wrote:This is an awful idea.
which idea? there are several ideas portrayed in the thread D: be more specific D:
The idea of the Tau using a Warhound.
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Post by: Kepora
Coolyo294 wrote:homsikpanda wrote:Coolyo294 wrote:This is an awful idea.
which idea? there are several ideas portrayed in the thread D: be more specific D:
The idea of the Tau using a Warhound.
"This is an awful idea" isn't exactly the most constructive thing to say, though. Quite rude, even. And there's nothing wrong with it, especially if said machine's owners turned rather than it being taken forcefully. There could be a lot of technology the Tau could glean from a working, intact Warhound.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Kepora wrote:Coolyo294 wrote:homsikpanda wrote:Coolyo294 wrote:This is an awful idea.
which idea? there are several ideas portrayed in the thread D: be more specific D:
The idea of the Tau using a Warhound.
"This is an awful idea" isn't exactly the most constructive thing to say, though. Quite rude, even. And there's nothing wrong with it, especially if said machine's owners turned rather than it being taken forcefully. There could be a lot of technology the Tau could glean from a working, intact Warhound.
I have to say that, while the statement was a bit poorly worded, I agree with it. Tau using a Warhound is a horribly transparent attempt to justify having a cool model. Just play with it, but don't try to make up an excuse, because any excuse will feel horribly forced.
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Post by: homsikpanda
problem of the horrible excuse solved!
it's a Gue'vesa warhound  captured during the third expanse on the western fringes, requiring massive ammounts of repair as it was actually found destroyed and missing parts D:...and had a dead ripper inside it clinging to what was left of the pilots dead face. possibly taken down during a last days of a defence against an encrouching nid invasion. thru much assistance from the gue'vesa tech priests, and a few modifcations and a new paint job, the tau warhound* was born!
(*i'm renaming it to something fishy to fit with the traditional tau naming, as soon as a i figure out a cool fish name for a giant prehistoric killing machine )
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
homsikpanda wrote:problem of the horrible excuse solved!
it's a Gue'vesa warhound captured during the third expanse on the western fringes, requiring massive ammounts of repair as it was actually found destroyed and missing parts D:...and had a dead ripper inside it clinging to what was left of the pilots dead face. possibly taken down during a last days of a defence against an encrouching nid invasion. thru much assistance from the gue'vesa tech priests, and a few modifcations and a new paint job, the tau warhound* was born!
(*i'm renaming it to something fishy to fit with the traditional tau naming, as soon as a i figure out a cool fish name for a giant prehistoric killing machine )
Pleisiosaur?
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Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha
if its a Tau refurbished Warhound, just call it a Kroothound.
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Post by: commisar rhodes
Just do it but make sure it looks good
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Post by: homsikpanda
BeRzErKeR wrote:homsikpanda wrote:problem of the horrible excuse solved!
it's a Gue'vesa warhound captured during the third expanse on the western fringes, requiring massive ammounts of repair as it was actually found destroyed and missing parts D:...and had a dead ripper inside it clinging to what was left of the pilots dead face. possibly taken down during a last days of a defence against an encrouching nid invasion. thru much assistance from the gue'vesa tech priests, and a few modifcations and a new paint job, the tau warhound* was born!
(*i'm renaming it to something fishy to fit with the traditional tau naming, as soon as a i figure out a cool fish name for a giant prehistoric killing machine )
Pleisiosaur?
hmmm-wikis-....
ooo i could name it kronos! after the kronosaurs!
thx! n.n
i shall name it the "Tau Kronos Titan!"
(yes i'm making a greek mythology reference here aswell xD )(<Cronus )
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:if its a Tau refurbished Warhound, just call it a Kroothound.
ewwww!!! D: i hate kroot, they smell funny :c...and oddly like ork
commisar rhodes wrote:Just do it but make sure it looks good
which returns me back to my previous question, should i use air cast or fire caste models for the pilot?
i was thinking maybe using a fire caste for the commander (replacing the human commander with a salvaged pirahna pilot) and keep the 2 gue'vesa and maybe add in another fire caste or 2 in the interior, or should i add air caste ground crew in the interior? since they look more...crewy..ish... if you know what i mean,
they're holding tools and stuff!!! (>@.@)>
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Post by: Deadshot
The pilots, bar the commander, could be replaces with drones. This is becaise on Titans, the pilots "jack in" and must be altered to have the lastest hardware from AdMech.com. As I am sure an average Air Caste pilot doesn't have a Dell internal premium processor, drones would fit.much better
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
I think the machine spirit would have to be completely ripped out in order for the Tau to use a Titan, honestly. Because, well. . . the machine-spirits of Titans are often described as being practically sentient, and requiring a very powerful mind which has a very specific kind of psychic potential in order to control them. The Tau probably wouldn't have that, so trying to jack either a Tau or a drone into a functioning Titan machine-spirit would probably get you a mind-raped Tau (or fried drone) and an angry Titan on the rampage.
Rather, the control system and machine spirit/AI would have been entirely torn out and replaced with electronic controls.
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Post by: homsikpanda
Deadshot wrote:The pilots, bar the commander, could be replaces with drones. This is becaise on Titans, the pilots "jack in" and must be altered to have the lastest hardware from AdMech.com. As I am sure an average Air Caste pilot doesn't have a Dell internal premium processor, drones would fit.much better
well i'm honestly more thinking of how i'm going to do it visually, it makes sense to have drones but trying to put drones in inplace of the existing models in the pilot seat is going to be hard D:
which is why i was thinking of having just a tau commander (replacing the commander ) and keeping the 2 human pilots and just list them as gue'vesas, i might use drones in the interior section but i think it'd look silly having a floating drone in the internals (makes sense i just dislike the look of the floating base in this instance) but yeah, just trying to make the modeling easy, replacing the entire cockpit with drones would just be an EXTREME headache D:
BeRzErKeR wrote:I think the machine spirit would have to be completely ripped out in order for the Tau to use a Titan, honestly. Because, well. . . the machine-spirits of Titans are often described as being practically sentient, and requiring a very powerful mind which has a very specific kind of psychic potential in order to control them. The Tau probably wouldn't have that, so trying to jack either a Tau or a drone into a functioning Titan machine-spirit would probably get you a mind-raped Tau (or fried drone) and an angry Titan on the rampage.
Rather, the control system and machine spirit/AI would have been entirely torn out and replaced with electronic controls.
i always thought "machine-spirits" were just really basic AI's (or less) steeped in superstition by a race that doesn't even fully understand it's own technology, and figured that the tau, being so familiar with computers and technology would be able to hack/upgrade a "machine spirit" for their own use/purpose, (like converting a mac to run windows or something )
also see previous comment concerning gue'vesas, those could help pilot it
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Post by: Deadshot
All imperial vehicles has a a machine spirit. A fraction of the Omnissiah. Just some, like Land Raiders and Stormravens are capable.of taking over things, it is still just a computer. On Titans however, the MS is fully aware and Titans could almost be sentient.
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Post by: homsikpanda
Deadshot wrote:All imperial vehicles has a a machine spirit. A fraction of the Omnissiah. Just some, like Land Raiders and Stormravens are capable.of taking over things, it is still just a computer. On Titans however, the MS is fully aware and Titans could almost be sentient.
what's an omnissiah? sorry...
and i unno when i think "machine spirit" it just brings to mind the "robo-brains" from the fall-out universe, where they're pretty much a computer but use human brains/organs for the purposes of data storage/transmission...i.e. using nerve endings for sending data the same way a computer uses a fiber opt cable, and using a human/organic brain the same way a computer uses ram/a hard drive
except we understand how the transfer of information works between various components of a computer,
imperial force don't, their understanding is "insert slot A into plug b, push "on" button, and it works..if it doesn't work shoot it till it blows up and order new parts from the tech priests"
the tau on the other hand i feel understand how all of their equipment works and aren't hindered by superstition or the inquisition and can reverse engineer and pick apart something till they understand how it works (like learning how an internal combustion engine works by taking apart your lawn mower and putting it together again )
then they can improve apon it (like adding a super charger to above example of said lawn mower )
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Post by: Deadshot
THE Omnissiah is the Adeptus Mechanicus Machine God.
Think of a machine spirit as a computer. In a Rhino or Chimera, it would be basic systems. In LRs or SRs, it is an autopilot and targeting arrays.
In Titans, it is a full sentient machine with a personalty and mind.
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
homsikpanda wrote:
i always thought "machine-spirits" were just really basic AI's (or less) steeped in superstition by a race that doesn't even fully understand it's own technology, and figured that the tau, being so familiar with computers and technology would be able to hack/upgrade a "machine spirit" for their own use/purpose, (like converting a mac to run windows or something )
also see previous comment concerning gue'vesas, those could help pilot it
To answer your question just above first, the Omnissiah is the Machine-God, the focus of worship of the Cult Mechanicus. The Tech-Priests believe that technology is divinely inspired, and that organic beings should evolve towards machines; that is, the augmentation the members of the Adeptus Mechanicus undergo as they rise in rank is a religious duty. Furthermore, the Cult Mechanicus teaches that it's religiously necessary to learn more and more so as to become ever more 'machine-like', which sort of puts paid to the idea that the Imperium doesn't engage in research and advance their technology; they do, very much. It's just that many advancements are kept secret by the Cult Mechanicus, and only certain people are allowed to use them or know they exist. The Cult Mechanicus, at least the upper ranks of it, understand the technology they use and build very well indeed. Now, as to the machine-spirit. . .
Honestly, nobody knows what the Imperium means by "machine-spirit". In some cases, the assertion crops up that ANY piece of technology has a machine-spirit, which would indicate that it's a religious belief that isn't associated with a particular piece of technology. . . but then we get stories like the piece of fluff where a Land Raider attacks an Ork army alone after its crew has been killed, which makes it quite clear that the 'machine-spirit' of a Land Raider, at least, is both self-directing and capable of long-range planning and tactical thought. That would indicate either a highly advanced AI (of the kind that isn't even theoretically possible to us now), a servitor-like mechanism where a living brain is wired into the machine, or a Warp-based piece of technology that functions in some manner we can't really describe.
Imperial Titans have the most powerful and intelligent machine-spirits of anything in the galaxy. That brings up a couple problems; first, if the Tau brought the Titan at all online while the machine-spirit was still connected, it would almost certainly kill them. Second, interfacing with a machine-spirit requires some kind of psychic ability; so few tech-priests are capable of it that recruiters for the Collegia Titanica scour worlds all over the Imperium for potential candidates. That means that the Tau probably cannot communicate with a Titan; and even if they can find a way around that, it would be speaking/thinking in the sacred machine-code of the Adeptus Mechanicus, which the Tau don't know, and would not know the Tau language. Trying to control it over the mind-machine interface with a non-techpriest would be like trying to compile a Java program with code written in C++; it just wouldn't work, because the instructions would be incomprehensible.
And third, reverse engineering something is HARD. Very, very hard. We don't even have a good analogy for people from two radically different technological backgrounds (like the Tau and the IoM) trying to reverse-engineer each other's technology. It would be like a metallurgist trying to disassemble a lion to figure out how to 'upgrade' one; all of his knowledge and experience is absolutely useless, except in the most tangential of ways. The Tau attempting to hack a machine spirit would. . . struggle. Greatly. Psychic technology is a field of science they don't even have and cannot possibly develop, and organic/technological interfacing is one in which the IoM is far, far ahead of them.
For all those reasons, I think it would be much, much simpler just to say that they found the machine spirit, disconnected it, and totally refitted the Titan with their own controls.
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Post by: homsikpanda
BeRzErKeR wrote:homsikpanda wrote:
i always thought "machine-spirits" were just really basic AI's (or less) steeped in superstition by a race that doesn't even fully understand it's own technology, and figured that the tau, being so familiar with computers and technology would be able to hack/upgrade a "machine spirit" for their own use/purpose, (like converting a mac to run windows or something )
also see previous comment concerning gue'vesas, those could help pilot it
For all those reasons, I think it would be much, much simpler just to say that they found the machine spirit, disconnected it, and totally refitted the Titan with their own controls.
this was kinda what i was aiming for anyway, i mostly asked about the machine spirit as, not playing the IoM, i'm really not very knowledgable about them, i play nids and tau
but yeah, i don't really need a huge back story as to why they have a titan, the other players in my group aren't too overly concerned about back story as much as just playing and having fun.
i think i am going to stick with replacing the commander with a tau fire/air cast or something, but keep the 2 human pilots in the front row, i wana do some customizing but something that won't take me months to try and complete, and i'll probably toss some tau ground crew into the inside, i can use sticky tac to hold them in place for easy remove during game play if i want, and it looks nicer, as oppose to having a floating drone, and you'd be able to see the sticky- tac thru the clear base D:
anyway! i got it figured out n.n
now to think up a paint job >=|
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Post by: chrisrawr
Relevant post still relevant, especially now that the discussion has moved toward AI and titans; http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/424841.page#3820066
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
But why do you think the machine-spirit is insane and afraid? More likely, it's perfectly happy; the Adeptus Mechanicus treat their machines far, far better than they do their people. Hell, Titans are revered as demigods. Furthermore, adherence to the laws of the Machine Cult would likely be literally hardwired into it. . . so if the machine spirit was capable of reacting at all, I would think that it would destroy any foul, heretical xenos-machine that tried to sway it from the True Path of the Omnissiah.
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Post by: homsikpanda
BeRzErKeR wrote:
But why do you think the machine-spirit is insane and afraid? More likely, it's perfectly happy; the Adeptus Mechanicus treat their machines far, far better than they do their people. Hell, Titans are revered as demigods. Furthermore, adherence to the laws of the Machine Cult would likely be literally hardwired into it. . . so if the machine spirit was capable of reacting at all, I would think that it would destroy any foul, heretical xenos-machine that tried to sway it from the True Path of the Omnissiah.
<.<.....>.>......-tosses emp grenade next to the main computer-
I FIXED IT!
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Post by: chrisrawr
BeRzErKeR wrote:
But why do you think the machine-spirit is insane and afraid? More likely, it's perfectly happy; the Adeptus Mechanicus treat their machines far, far better than they do their people. Hell, Titans are revered as demigods. Furthermore, adherence to the laws of the Machine Cult would likely be literally hardwired into it. . . so if the machine spirit was capable of reacting at all, I would think that it would destroy any foul, heretical xenos-machine that tried to sway it from the True Path of the Omnissiah.
Not the machine spirit - those are placed in the biologically adapted titans. I'm talking about an Ironman A.I. - a True Titan from the DAoM.
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Post by: Grey Templar
If the Tau had a Warhound it would only be operable by a Gue'vesa with no modifications to the Titan.
Titans are practically sentient. its Machine spirit would likely self-destruct or render the titan unusable if the Tau attempted to modify it.
Titans also don't fit in with the Tau method of Warfare. It can't perform Kayun maneuvers and its a little obvious for a Mont'ka hammer blow.
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
Grey Templar wrote:If the Tau had a Warhound it would only be operable by a Gue'vesa with no modifications to the Titan.
Titans are practically sentient. its Machine spirit would likely self-destruct or render the titan unusable if the Tau attempted to modify it.
Titans also don't fit in with the Tau method of Warfare. It can't perform Kayun maneuvers and its a little obvious for a Mont'ka hammer blow.
That might work; but you'd have to find a Gue'vesa who was mentally tough enough to survive linking to the Titan, had the force of will to command it, and also had the presence of mind to LIE to it when mentally connected; if the machine spirit figured out that it being used against the Imperium by alien hereteks like the Tau, it'd probably run mad.
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Post by: Grey Templar
yup, its alltogether inconcevable.
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Post by: Deadshot
Just say that some renegade Titan crew work for the tau. The titan was an ill treated, old model that rarely saw the battlefield or a spot of oil. So when the tau gave it a little tune up, it was delighted.
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Post by: ArchaonSon
Hmmmm maybe it could be a regiment+Titan legion that defected to the Greater good I could see a Titan reverse engineered by the Tau using Broadside cannons only heavier as a weapon and possible ports for gun drones I for one like this idea the hobby after all is all about ideas and new ones for modelling I am going to have craftworld pirates in my DE army as the codex has hinted at a friendship or alliance of convience between Cammoragh and the Craftworlds especially freelancers.
So why cant the Tau have a Titan? with improved interface negate the machine spirit as that wouldnt be easily subdued and if it was the Tau would have a formidable war machine so Im all game and open to this concept if we were all rigid with our ideals Chaos Space Marines wouldnt take Baneblades and Orks wouldnt take looted battlewagons and Genestealer cults wouldnt have access to Imperial Technology.... So the possibilities are quite endless I for one would also like to see Necron Assimilated technology..
To the poster good idea keep it up.
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Post by: Deadshot
Hyperstone Maze of Inquisitor Valeria. And the Tesserect Labourynthes of the HK fluff.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
ArchaonSon wrote:
So why cant the Tau have a Titan? with improved interface negate the machine spirit as that wouldnt be easily subdued and if it was the Tau would have a formidable war machine so Im all game and open to this concept if we were all rigid with our ideals Chaos Space Marines wouldnt take Baneblades and Orks wouldnt take looted battlewagons and Genestealer cults wouldnt have access to Imperial Technology.... So the possibilities are quite endless I for one would also like to see Necron Assimilated technology..
Chaos Space Marines don't have Baneblades, the Lost and the Damned do. Orks looting stuff is part of their fundamental fluff, as is Genestealer cults infiltrating the Imperium, and the Tau not having any friggin' Titans. I'm not opposed to anyone fielding a Titan; it's a sweet-ass model. But please, for the love of all that is holy, don't try to justify it with "oh they just circumvented the Machine Spirit and now it works just fine". Titans also aren't neglected, ever. They're Avatars of the Machine God for the Mechanicus, they're venerated beyond belief.
Sorry if I'm coming across as an ass, but I truly believe it to be a, for lack of a better word, stupid idea to try to justify the Tau having a Warhound of their own. It makes no sense and makes Baby Jesus cry.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
I consider all machine spirit nonsense to be superstition and propoganda in-universe, so I would have no problem with a tau titan.
I would either make it a Gue'vesa warhound piloted by humans or I would replace all the exhaust with ports that look more tau and say it was refitted with a tau engine for battle testing purposes and got caught near a battle and joined.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Rented Tritium wrote:I consider all machine spirit nonsense to be superstition and propoganda in-universe, so I would have no problem with a tau titan.
You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, but you're rewriting the fluff. For an example of the kind of Machine Spirit that's in a Titan, I reccomend the novel Helsreach.
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Post by: Deadshot
For an example of how they work outside titans, read the Land Raider entry in any marine codex and the Stormraven in GK codex.
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Post by: homsikpanda
Grey Templar wrote:yup, its alltogether inconcevable.
to late, i tried it, it worked, i won the game so i'm a happyish panda n.n
still need to paint/ figure out the internals for visual purposes but personally i'm not worried about the fluff, i can make my own fluff that, technicly is canon for my own faction.. (i'm using my own faction that i've already created some fluff for anyway)
plus my gaming buddies, like i stated earlyer, aren't worried about fluff, or consistency aslong as it follows the general gameplay rules i.e. not having a group of orcs commanded by an inquisitor and behaving like eldar >.>....
having orcs commanded by an inquisitor is fine aslong as they act like orcs...they were captured/brainwashed orcs that the inquisitor is commanding thru terror tactics only, that works... or like the example given in the apocalypse book, a group of orcs unloading carinefexs from their cages and letting the fexs run rampant (of course from the controller pov the controller is having them attack the enemys of the orcs while still following the carinfex rules, so he's using an orc army with a few carinfexs tossed in for flavor, but for story telling, they're captured fexs the orcs unleashed onto an unsuspecting enemy! ) really, aslong as you have fun, anything goes >.> rules are in place to give structure only, can be bent/broke aslong as both parties agree, and both parties have fun
anyway, it worked for me and my gaming friends, that's all i needed it...anything else you guys are arguing about don't really concern me, >.>
but feel free to discuss / argue it among yourselves it it makes you happy n.n
-grabs popcorn-
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Post by: Rented Tritium
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:I consider all machine spirit nonsense to be superstition and propoganda in-universe, so I would have no problem with a tau titan.
You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, but you're rewriting the fluff. For an example of the kind of Machine Spirit that's in a Titan, I reccomend the novel Helsreach.
99% of 40k fluff is not word of god. It's written from in-universe perspectives. Basically nothing about the imperium is credible as written.
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Post by: homsikpanda
Rented Tritium wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:I consider all machine spirit nonsense to be superstition and propoganda in-universe, so I would have no problem with a tau titan.
You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, but you're rewriting the fluff. For an example of the kind of Machine Spirit that's in a Titan, I reccomend the novel Helsreach.
99% of 40k fluff is not word of god. It's written from in-universe perspectives. Basically nothing about the imperium is credible as written.
OH OH OH OH !! in my "in-universe" fluff, there's a planet in the exact center of the universe inhabited by all powerful but docile pandas who act like normal regular pandas and, don't even really have a housing system let alone space travel (they could if they wanted to, they just don't want to as they are content to live like normal every day earth pandas )
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Post by: Deadshot
Perfectly acceptable. The only race we meet outside the galaxy ate Nids and they don't talk. Perfectly reasonable.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Rented Tritium wrote: Basically nothing about the imperium is credible as written.
maybe the opinionated bits are, but the results are NOT up for debate.
Titans are practically sentient. They are literally avatars of the Machine God. For this reason alone there will never be a neglected Titan.
This is FACT as demonstrated by descriptions of the actions performed by smaller examples of Machine Spirits. Landraiders taking out entire ork warbands by themselves illustrates their power. It is also fact that the Machine Spirits of Titans are much more powerful.
Titans are for all intents and purposes intellegent entities. They would react with utter revilation at the touch of Xenos meddling. The Machine Spirit would likely detonate the reactor.
Ignore this all you want, and its perfectly in your right to do so, but remember that it will NOT be liked by the majority of people. hence you should not get all defensive when it is rightly criticised.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Rented Tritium wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:I consider all machine spirit nonsense to be superstition and propoganda in-universe, so I would have no problem with a tau titan.
You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, but you're rewriting the fluff. For an example of the kind of Machine Spirit that's in a Titan, I reccomend the novel Helsreach.
99% of 40k fluff is not word of god. It's written from in-universe perspectives. Basically nothing about the imperium is credible as written.
The thoughts of an individual Princeps as she grapples with the Machine Spirit for control, while written from an "in-universe perspective", is also written as something adressing the reader directly, to convey the point that the Titan is more or less sentient. It's not some random AdMech person trying to convince anyone that Titans are sentient, it's the Titan directly interacting with it's Princeps.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
Grey Templar wrote:Rented Tritium wrote: Basically nothing about the imperium is credible as written.
maybe the opinionated bits are, but the results are NOT up for debate.
I think they are
Titans are practically sentient. They are literally avatars of the Machine God. For this reason alone there will never be a neglected Titan.
You are supposing to know the behavior of every single human in the universe. You don't know that people would always behave in a certain way.
This is FACT as demonstrated by descriptions of the actions performed by smaller examples of Machine Spirits. Landraiders taking out entire ork warbands by themselves illustrates their power. It is also fact that the Machine Spirits of Titans are much more powerful.
Landraiders taking out a bunch of orks doesn't mean they're protected by a god. You are referring to beliefs held by in-universe individuals. These things are not verified by an omniscient narrator to my liking.
Titans are for all intents and purposes intellegent entities. They would react with utter revilation at the touch of Xenos meddling. The Machine Spirit would likely detonate the reactor.
Do you know what the word "likely" means? It doesn't mean "literally every single time". Hope this helps.
Ignore this all you want, and its perfectly in your right to do so, but remember that it will NOT be liked by the majority of people. hence you should not get all defensive when it is rightly criticised.
Go back and read my posts before this one. I didn't "get all" anything until you made this post.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:I consider all machine spirit nonsense to be superstition and propoganda in-universe, so I would have no problem with a tau titan.
You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, but you're rewriting the fluff. For an example of the kind of Machine Spirit that's in a Titan, I reccomend the novel Helsreach.
99% of 40k fluff is not word of god. It's written from in-universe perspectives. Basically nothing about the imperium is credible as written.
The thoughts of an individual Princeps as she grapples with the Machine Spirit for control, while written from an "in-universe perspective", is also written as something adressing the reader directly, to convey the point that the Titan is more or less sentient. It's not some random AdMech person trying to convince anyone that Titans are sentient, it's the Titan directly interacting with it's Princeps.
I grapple with my car on an icy road, is it sentient? Would it resist anyone else trying to drive it?
Not good enough. A person grappling for control over a machine does not equate to "That machine would asplode if a tau got in it" in the least.
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Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Rented Tritium wrote:
I grapple with my car on an icy road, is it sentient? Would it resist anyone else trying to drive it?
Not good enough. A person grappling for control over a machine does not equate to "That machine would asplode if a tau got in it" in the least.
Suppose your car mentally attacked you, trying to absorb your mind into it?
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
Rented Tritium wrote:
Landraiders taking out a bunch of orks doesn't mean they're protected by a god. You are referring to beliefs held by in-universe individuals. These things are not verified by an omniscient narrator to my liking.
No, it doesn't. However, it DOES mean that they are capable of independent action, self-direction and forward planning; which means they're sentient, or at least have an animal level of intelligence. Whatever a machine spirit is, then (and we DON'T know that), we know that it does exist, and it can be reasonably called 'intelligent' in a Land Raider; and we also know that the machine spirit of a Titan is much, much more powerful and intelligent. Given that, the fact that it requires people with unusually strong willpower to direct a Titan, and given that the fluff on the matter consistently portrays them as intelligent individuals, it's reasonable to conclude that a Titan is sentient or close to it.
It's also reasonable to conclude that a Titan has no intelligence whatsoever, that what the techpriests call a machine spirit is actually a sophisticatedly-programmed computer with a complicated decision tree that can almost replicate human decision-making processes, and that the difficulty in 'controlling' a Titan is due to errors in the interface between brainwaves and computer commands, which can be minimized by brains with a certain pattern of mutation that is ALSO associated with strong willpower, purely by coincidence. We don't KNOW anything that contradicts this idea. I just prefer the first one because it's more grimdark.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:
I grapple with my car on an icy road, is it sentient? Would it resist anyone else trying to drive it?
Not good enough. A person grappling for control over a machine does not equate to "That machine would asplode if a tau got in it" in the least.
Suppose your car mentally attacked you, trying to absorb your mind into it?
Something could happen that looks like that, but there are still questions.
First is that what's being described there doesn't speak at all to the intelligence level of the machine or its godhood.
Second is that nothing there indicates that the machine cares who is piloting it.
All I can actually determine as canon from that is that titans react to pilots in some way. Could be plain old re-programmable AI, could be a spirit that doesn't know humans from tau, could be basically anything. Automatically Appended Next Post: BeRzErKeR wrote: I just prefer the first one because it's more grimdark.
Best point anyone's made in this thread so far. You're definitely right there.
So to be productive for the thread, how do we go about giving the tau a titan while still retaining that? If we assume the titan is indeed some giant god trapped in there, we have to assume it can read minds and really understand intentions. If that's the case, we can either say that the machine spirit was replaced by a chaos god who has decided it will be hilarious if he makes it join the tau for some *fill in chaos plot here* or we can say that the pilots are being mind controlled by ethereal and believe that they are actually helping the imperium and the machine spirit believes them. Automatically Appended Next Post: We could also say that it's not a real titan at all, but a dummy titan the tau built for training purposes that got pulled into a battle by chance.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Rented Tritium wrote:Grey Templar wrote:Rented Tritium wrote: Basically nothing about the imperium is credible as written.
maybe the opinionated bits are, but the results are NOT up for debate.
I think they are
The physical facts arn't up for debate(Machine Spirit=a self-controlling machine that can "sort of" think for itself. What is written about what happened isn't up for debate. The why it happend is, but this is not.
Titans are practically sentient. They are literally avatars of the Machine God. For this reason alone there will never be a neglected Titan.
You are supposing to know the behavior of every single human in the universe. You don't know that people would always behave in a certain way.
The Ad Mech worships Titans. Titans are only going to be parted from the Ad Mech in the case of a Legion being destroyed. Members of the Ad Mech will NEVER neglect a titan, and they will never abandon one unless they have no choice.
The Ad Mech isn't going to act different in one section of the Galaxy from another in this instance. Their behavior is set in stone at this point.
This is FACT as demonstrated by descriptions of the actions performed by smaller examples of Machine Spirits. Landraiders taking out entire ork warbands by themselves illustrates their power. It is also fact that the Machine Spirits of Titans are much more powerful.
Landraiders taking out a bunch of orks doesn't mean they're protected by a god. You are referring to beliefs held by in-universe individuals. These things are not verified by an omniscient narrator to my liking.
You are misreading what I said here. The god part is up for debate, but the actions of the machines isn't. And my point was to proove that a Titan would be more then capable of resisting the Tau attempts to interface with it, not that the machine spirit is actually a god.
Titans are for all intents and purposes intellegent entities. They would react with utter revilation at the touch of Xenos meddling. The Machine Spirit would likely detonate the reactor.
Do you know what the word "likely" means? It doesn't mean "literally every single time". Hope this helps.
And faillable statements can be made by anyone. Likely just means there is the possability of it not happening and a possability of it happening. Specifically, the Titan would detonate the reactor 99.999999999% of the Time.
Then we have the Issue that the Tau Empire has, as a whole, faced only a few Warhounds and a single Reaver titan. and only 1 warhound was destroyed during this engagement when the Tau jury rigged something specifically to kill it.
Ignore this all you want, and its perfectly in your right to do so, but remember that it will NOT be liked by the majority of people. hence you should not get all defensive when it is rightly criticised.
Go back and read my posts before this one. I didn't "get all" anything until you made this post.
That bit wasn't directed at you. More at the OP.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:AlmightyWalrus wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:I consider all machine spirit nonsense to be superstition and propoganda in-universe, so I would have no problem with a tau titan.
You're perfectly entitled to your own opinion, but you're rewriting the fluff. For an example of the kind of Machine Spirit that's in a Titan, I reccomend the novel Helsreach.
99% of 40k fluff is not word of god. It's written from in-universe perspectives. Basically nothing about the imperium is credible as written.
The thoughts of an individual Princeps as she grapples with the Machine Spirit for control, while written from an "in-universe perspective", is also written as something adressing the reader directly, to convey the point that the Titan is more or less sentient. It's not some random AdMech person trying to convince anyone that Titans are sentient, it's the Titan directly interacting with it's Princeps.
I grapple with my car on an icy road, is it sentient? Would it resist anyone else trying to drive it?
Not good enough.
You arn't struggling with your car, you are struggling with the road. This is also a physical struggle as opposed to a mental struggle. Invalid argument.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
Grey Templar wrote: Their behavior is set in stone at this point.
I want to introduce you to this really interesting concept.
Humans are not robots. Their behavior is absolutely not set in stone. The admechs are people. Human beings with human brains. To say that an entire group of people that large would "never" do anything is pretty insane.
And faillable statements can be made by anyone. Likely just means there is the possability of it not happening and a possability of it happening. Specifically, the Titan would detonate the reactor 99.999999999% of the Time.
So the OP's titan is the .00000000001%. Problem solved.
Then we have the Issue that the Tau Empire has, as a whole, faced only a few Warhounds and a single Reaver titan. and only 1 warhound was destroyed during this engagement when the Tau jury rigged something specifically to kill it.
Just because the tau have been specifically mentioned to have fought so few doesn't mean they have only fought that few.
You arn't struggling with your car, you are struggling with the road. This is also a physical struggle as opposed to a mental struggle. Invalid argument.
They both look the same. How can you tell there's not a machine spirit in my car having a psychic battle with me?
46864
Post by: Deadshot
Try it like this.
Suppose your car was designed with a mind scanner. It will resist those without a specific set of specifications, such as height and weight and blood type.
You need to be between 5'6" and 6'6"
You need to be within 14 stone and 18 stone
You need to be Type AB+.
Now let's say you met 2 of those. Car resists, but not much. Let's say person B is AB+ but is only 4'1" and 12 stone. Gets Harder right?
Now let's say you met nothing above. It is quite hard now.
Now let's say it is a remote control car and someone is going let while you need to go right. Really hard.
Now, if you want to stop but the car disables the breaks, stabs you with pointy objects and turns off the engine, try driving it now!!!
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
The Ad Mechs policies and reverence is set in stone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not seeing the same universe.
I'm done discussing that point because its clearly pointless.
It is true that this does go against the grain of established fluff and people will not like it. So it should be kept in the dark with all the Femarines, Furries, Eldar halfbreeds, and the Squats.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
Rented Tritium wrote:
Best point anyone's made in this thread so far. You're definitely right there.
So to be productive for the thread, how do we go about giving the tau a titan while still retaining that? If we assume the titan is indeed some giant god trapped in there, we have to assume it can read minds and really understand intentions. If that's the case, we can either say that the machine spirit was replaced by a chaos god who has decided it will be hilarious if he makes it join the tau for some *fill in chaos plot here* or we can say that the pilots are being mind controlled by ethereal and believe that they are actually helping the imperium and the machine spirit believes them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We could also say that it's not a real titan at all, but a dummy titan the tau built for training purposes that got pulled into a battle by chance.
No need to assume it's a god; it's just some horrifying conglomeration of lobotomized brains and machine-parts that's been brainwashed into THINKING it's a god. Even the AdMech don't assert that the Omnissiah literally powers each Titan; the Titans are supposed to be avatars or effigies of the Omnissiah. Like Gargants are effigies of Gork (or possibly Mork) for the Orks.
We do know Titans can be corrupted by Chaos, since the Dark Mechanicus had at least half of the Titan Legions on their side during the Horus Heresy. That's done via "scrapcode", which is machine code that's been infused with Chaos and turned into something sorcerous and Warp-tainted; possibly not appropriate here, since it drives the machine spirits mad.
Now, if the Titan was shut down or crippled by battle-damage, I would imagine the Tau could simply remove the machine spirit before refitting the Titan; that was what I suggested before as being the easiest way to deal with the fluff issues. If you wanted to keep it intact for the purpose of army background or something, though, there are a few ways to do it;
1) A Titan Princeps, having somehow become disillusioned with the Cult Mechanicus, convinced his Titan that it had been lied to all these years, stole a bulk transport (AdMech ships are largely automated and run by servitors that will probably obey any Techpriest) and fled with his Titan. That, of course, means that the AdMech will be moving heaven and earth to get him back.
2) Battle damage damaged the machine spirit's memory banks, essentially giving it amnesia; the Tau taught it their drone communication codes (without realizing what they were doing, likely) and indoctrinated it into Tau philosophy before bringing it back to full functionality; as a consequence, it cooperates fully with the instructions given by its commander, for the Greater Good. The Tau may not even realize the Titan HAS a machine spirit.
3) After finding and repairing a destroyed Titan, the Tau attempted to pilot it and found that any Tau who linked in died in convulsions. They, therefore, turned it over to the Gue'vesa, who after many years of periodic attempts (and horrible failures) found someone who could survive when connected to the machine spirit. A long period of persuasion, coached by a crafty Ethereal, convinced the machine spirit that the AdMech had betrayed it, and it joined the Tau to wreak vengeance on its creators.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
Deadshot wrote:Try it like this.
Suppose your car was designed with a mind scanner. It will resist those without a specific set of specifications, such as height and weight and blood type.
You need to be between 5'6" and 6'6"
You need to be within 14 stone and 18 stone
You need to be Type AB+.
Now let's say you met 2 of those. Car resists, but not much. Let's say person B is AB+ but is only 4'1" and 12 stone. Gets Harder right?
Now let's say you met nothing above. It is quite hard now.
Now let's say it is a remote control car and someone is going let while you need to go right. Really hard.
Now, if you want to stop but the car disables the breaks, stabs you with pointy objects and turns off the engine, try driving it now!!!
That's really interesting but irrelevant since none of that is canon for a titan.
Those are just how you SUPPOSE a titan works.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeRzErKeR wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:
Best point anyone's made in this thread so far. You're definitely right there.
So to be productive for the thread, how do we go about giving the tau a titan while still retaining that? If we assume the titan is indeed some giant god trapped in there, we have to assume it can read minds and really understand intentions. If that's the case, we can either say that the machine spirit was replaced by a chaos god who has decided it will be hilarious if he makes it join the tau for some *fill in chaos plot here* or we can say that the pilots are being mind controlled by ethereal and believe that they are actually helping the imperium and the machine spirit believes them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We could also say that it's not a real titan at all, but a dummy titan the tau built for training purposes that got pulled into a battle by chance.
No need to assume it's a god; it's just some horrifying conglomeration of lobotomized brains and machine-parts that's been brainwashed into THINKING it's a god. Even the AdMech don't assert that the Omnissiah literally powers each Titan; the Titans are supposed to be avatars or effigies of the Omnissiah. Like Gargants are effigies of Gork (or possibly Mork) for the Orks.
We do know Titans can be corrupted by Chaos, since the Dark Mechanicus had at least half of the Titan Legions on their side during the Horus Heresy. That's done via "scrapcode", which is machine code that's been infused with Chaos and turned into something sorcerous and Warp-tainted; possibly not appropriate here, since it drives the machine spirits mad.
Now, if the Titan was shut down or crippled by battle-damage, I would imagine the Tau could simply remove the machine spirit before refitting the Titan; that was what I suggested before as being the easiest way to deal with the fluff issues. If you wanted to keep it intact for the purpose of army background or something, though, there are a few ways to do it;
1) A Titan Princeps, having somehow become disillusioned with the Cult Mechanicus, convinced his Titan that it had been lied to all these years, stole a bulk transport (AdMech ships are largely automated and run by servitors that will probably obey any Techpriest) and fled with his Titan. That, of course, means that the AdMech will be moving heaven and earth to get him back.
2) Battle damage damaged the machine spirit's memory banks, essentially giving it amnesia; the Tau taught it their drone communication codes (without realizing what they were doing, likely) and indoctrinated it into Tau philosophy before bringing it back to full functionality; as a consequence, it cooperates fully with the instructions given by its commander, for the Greater Good. The Tau may not even realize the Titan HAS a machine spirit.
3) After finding and repairing a destroyed Titan, the Tau attempted to pilot it and found that any Tau who linked in died in convulsions. They, therefore, turned it over to the Gue'vesa, who after many years of periodic attempts (and horrible failures) found someone who could survive when connected to the machine spirit. A long period of persuasion, coached by a crafty Ethereal, convinced the machine spirit that the AdMech had betrayed it, and it joined the Tau to wreak vengeance on its creators.
I like all three of those! Good work.
The second one is great because it could still be tainted by chaos and turn on the tau and they would have no idea why!
46864
Post by: Deadshot
My last comment was metaphorical.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
Grey Templar wrote:The Ad Mechs policies and reverence is set in stone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not seeing the same universe.
Right, because people never ever break the rules or policy.
I'm done discussing that point because its clearly pointless.
I agree that it's pointless, but not about why.
It is true that this does go against the grain of established fluff and people will not like it. So it should be kept in the dark with all the Femarines, Furries, Eldar halfbreeds, and the Squats.
In the dark with those unclean opinions. People like you are why I don't like posting about fluff.
8815
Post by: Archonate
If Tau ever make anything like a Warhound titan, it will have one pilot. Some lucky Shas'O. Then 50 years later, all Firewarriors will be piloting one.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Rented Tritium wrote:Grey Templar wrote:The Ad Mechs policies and reverence is set in stone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not seeing the same universe.
Right, because people never ever break the rules or policy.
I'm done discussing that point because its clearly pointless.
I agree that it's pointless, but not about why.
It is true that this does go against the grain of established fluff and people will not like it. So it should be kept in the dark with all the Femarines, Furries, Eldar halfbreeds, and the Squats.
In the dark with those unclean opinions. People like you are why I don't like posting about fluff.
People who break policy in 40k get shot. Thats why it doesn't get broken.
You don't like posting about fluff because you get told your wrong? Then i think you are in the wrong universe. You write 40k fluff, you don't contradict the parts that can't be changed. This is exactly that.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
Grey Templar wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:Grey Templar wrote:The Ad Mechs policies and reverence is set in stone. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not seeing the same universe.
Right, because people never ever break the rules or policy.
I'm done discussing that point because its clearly pointless.
I agree that it's pointless, but not about why.
It is true that this does go against the grain of established fluff and people will not like it. So it should be kept in the dark with all the Femarines, Furries, Eldar halfbreeds, and the Squats.
In the dark with those unclean opinions. People like you are why I don't like posting about fluff.
People who break policy in 40k get shot. Thats why it doesn't get broken.
You don't like posting about fluff because you get told your wrong? Then i think you are in the wrong universe. You write 40k fluff, you don't contradict the parts that can't be changed. This is exactly that.
You're suggesting that a group with MILLIONS of members will always act in a singular monolithic way and that nobody will ever once break the rules without getting punished and I'm the one who's "wrong"?
No, that's flat out pants on head stupid. That is not how human beings work. You have drank the imperial kool-aid on this one. If that's the way we're going, then this really is the worst written universe in the history of fiction.
If ad-mechs always act in one way, explain chaos warhounds in a way that doesn't destroy your argument.
40664
Post by: mega_bassist
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:if its a Tau refurbished Warhound, just call it a Kroothound.
I approve of this idea.
44326
Post by: DeffDred
To the Op: Please don't ruin a beautiful FW model with a silly conversion. Tau titans are better made of Eldar grav tanks and Tau vehicle parts, I've seen them.
As for Rented Tritium...
Are you trying to troll this?
You seem to have no knowledge about machine spirits or titans.
Read Titanicus. It will help you to understand that you have been completely wrong this entire thread.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
DeffDred wrote:
Read Titanicus. It will help you to understand that you have been completely wrong this entire thread.
This is not how you actually argue with someone. "Go read this novel" is not actually an argument in a debate and the little tag on the end is pretty infuriating.
51755
Post by: aquilaenet
IMHO, I think the best way to do it is have gue'vesa pilot the titan and have a fire caste command it. The humans already have the implants. The titan can be convinced it is doing the right thing by killing anything including humans just like the human pilots. The proof of that is chaos has titans that are obviously messed up in the "head". I think if the titan is sentient, it can be swayed just like any normal human working for chaos or tau.
As far as colors or mods go, the Tau would probably realize that keeping it the same as the way they found it will be trickier than repainting it or modding it. Imagine walking up to the IOM with it. That would confuse the hell out of the Imperial Guard, then BOOM! too late to do anything about it. Against any xenos... I don't think they would know any different.
46926
Post by: Kaldor
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Tau using a Warhound is a horribly transparent attempt to justify having a cool model. Just play with it, but don't try to make up an excuse, because any excuse will feel horribly forced.
I concur.
44326
Post by: DeffDred
I wasn't aguing. You were just defending your point and I was making mine.
Infuriating? I think you're adding tone to my text that isn't there.
And asking you to read isn't my atempt at an argument. It's my atempt to help you get up to speed on the subject the debate is about.
46926
Post by: Kaldor
Firstly, a Tau titan is a stupid idea.
Secondly, the Machine Spirit is obviously some form of internal computer system, ranging from cruise control in a Rhino to advanced targeting and tactical control in a Landraider.
I mean, you can stick your fingers in your ears all you want, but the fact remains that the Machine Spirit of vehicles is represented in the background as an actual, tangible presence that actually does stuff.
I'd like to see you explain away the story where a LR continues to engage the enemy after its crew are killed? Or the ability in-game of vehicles with PotMS to fire extra weapons outside the normal rules?
23818
Post by: Mal the Wolf
As for the pilots. I think you have the following options.
Fire caste: Fire warriors, Forgeworld
Air caste: Again Forgeworld
Earth caste: You could model these but i think they are out of place here
Water Caste: Easy to model, take a standard helmetless head and cut the hair and some of the top of the head. Next take the round top of the markerlight from a Skyray glue to head add antenna. Bang I made one for a Piranha. Looks spot on to the codex.
And dont for get the Aun. They have one in everything bigger than and including a Orca. Aun shi model could be easily modded to a seating position. This is my vote.
47662
Post by: homsikpanda
Archonate wrote:If Tau ever make anything like a Warhound titan, it will have one pilot. Some lucky Shas'O. Then 50 years later, all Firewarriors will be piloting one.
lol xD ...it's set for the 4th sphere expansion that they're going to run tests on it, by the 5th sphere, every fire warrior has one, and it replaces the normal xv8- suits xD
on a side note, can we stop with the fluffy fluff for a min D: still looking for suggestions on visually appealing (weither it makes sense or not! >=| )
tau fire warrior/air cast pilot in princep seat and keep normal human pilots? or replace both? or keep both? and anybody know where i could get a good full body sitting down tau warrior/pilot?
23818
Post by: Mal the Wolf
Aun and two Fire Warriors and no there is no model for what you need. But all you have to do is make two cuts above the thighs and do some fileing to fit.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
DeffDred wrote:I wasn't aguing. You were just defending your point and I was making mine.
Infuriating? I think you're adding tone to my text that isn't there.
And asking you to read isn't my atempt at an argument. It's my atempt to help you get up to speed on the subject the debate is about.
Nono. I'm not letting you off that easy. You came into a debate in progress and told me I didn't know what I was talking about, then rather than present any actual evidence, you told me to go buy and read a novel. You don't get to do that and then be like "woah, I wasn't trying to argue".
Was there a scene in that novel where the tau tried to do everything we've suggested in this thread and none of it worked and an omniscient narrator came out and told us why? Because unless that happened, we don't actually know those things.
21196
Post by: agnosto
Let's try some logic:
-Warhammer 40k is a fictional universe created as a vehicle to sell models and hobby/game related items.
-You found a model you like but it is identified with an army you don't own/play/collect.
-You discuss it with your friends and they have no problem with you including the out-of army model in your next apoc battle.
-You spend YOUR money on the model, build it, paint it and play it in your area with the blessings of your opponents.
-Don't let people on the internet tell you what to do or not do with YOUR toy and YOUR money. Play with the damn thing, enjoy yourself, enjoy the model.
I always thought it ridiculous that some people are so caught up in the fluff; you know that stuff that GW changes whenever they feel like it, that they scream to the heavens how impossible it is. Hell, a few months ago we thought it would be impossible for Necrons to be sentient......yeah, that didn't change at all. Some rumors point to a large walker in the next Tau codex and the Tau are a multi-species Empire; who's to say none of their comrades don't have Titans or Titan-like units?
It's a game, people, not real life. Chill.
40761
Post by: Bongfu
Not to discourage the OP, but I have to agree that a Tau Warhound is a bad idea from a fluff stand point.
First off, the humans who joined the Tau were mostly colonist and backwater PDFs.
There is an extreme difference from them and the people who operate and protect the Titans.
I have serious doubts the Skittarii would have let Tau come within sight of the Titan without giving them a good fight. Secondly, the Machine spirit must be maintained and pleased by the Techpriest of the Adeptus Mechanicus, who would rather see the Titan destroyed than hand the technology over to some xeno-empire.
In short, just use it in your army, but don't give it a back story.
43229
Post by: Ovion
Having glanced across this thread, plus having previously read the Titan graphic novel and looked around things, the most logical answer is the Human Allies (Gue'vasa) Warhound. This means you get to keep the model mostly as is, you could possibly put a tau comm array on it somewhere I'd possibly paint it up using a VERY weathered original paintjob, with a shoulderpad or something with the colours of your Tau force. OR - full repaint in your armies colours. But ultimately, you can just go nuts with it
46864
Post by: Deadshot
Besides, in Apocalypse any armies can ally so it is ok.
How about this, if you need it desperatly.
Whatever planet the tau invaded already had a conflict. Remanents of Titan legions including said warhound joined forces to give a better chance of defeating the enemy.
Hell, if you are fightinf Nids call it Hice Fleet Gorgon. At the end of that hive fleet's attack, an imperial army lost in the warp, actually sent to destroy the tau, teamed up with then to beat the nids. Read the nid dex for mire.
27391
Post by: purplefood
No fluff excuse.
Do it anyway because it's cool...
24196
Post by: KingDeath
There are quite a few heretical groups within the Mechanicus. Most seem to favour the freedom of chaos but I see no reason why a particularly xenophile group shouldn't have thrown their lot in with the Tau Empire.
The titan's AI / machinespirit could have either been wiped or simply otherwise convinced to go along.
The Tau themselfs are unlikely to ever create titans. Large bipedal walkers are a rather impractical concept for a warmachine if you think about it ( the Mechanicus might have other reasons than pure practicality to build titans while the Tau probably won't ) so it is more likely that the titan has been originaly built by the techlords of mars.
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Post by: homsikpanda
DeffDred wrote:To the Op: Please don't ruin a beautiful FW model with a silly conversion. Tau titans are better made of Eldar grav tanks and Tau vehicle parts, I've seen them.
picture please? it sounds interesting
26241
Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha
Not a titan but still a superheavy warmachine :
this one is mine , but I have seen bipedal ones....not a huge fan myself, grav tanks are much more Tau-ish, IMHO
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Rented Tritium wrote:DeffDred wrote:
Read Titanicus. It will help you to understand that you have been completely wrong this entire thread.
This is not how you actually argue with someone. "Go read this novel" is not actually an argument in a debate and the little tag on the end is pretty infuriating.
He could have been a little nicer, but his point is still valid.
You arn't well versed in Titan and Ad Mech fluff. This isn't a crime and nothing is wrong with it, but you can't go ignoring what is there once its been brought to you attention.
You simply arn't qualified to discuss this subject because you havn't read the source material.
You also are attempting to put logic into this discussion by saying it is impossable for an organization this large to be so consistant. Mistake #1: putting logic into this. This is GW writing, they don't use logic in it.
40k is a static setting, they don't change the way they do things. its a fact of the setting thats not up for dispute. If you want something less static and more logical then you should go play a different wargame, or write the fluff how you like it and enjoy it by yourself. Purists don't want that stuff because we like the setting how it is.
40749
Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Rogue Mechanicus trying to use the Tau as a buffer shield while they complete their objectives might possibly work. It's hugely unlikely that they'll actually join the Tau Empire. Alternatively, having it as part of an Imperial force fighting against some greater threat could also work, but it'd be bizarre for the Titan to be on its own and not with other Imperials.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
That is possable, but like you said the Titan wouldn't be alone. unless there was some bargain struck between the Dark Mechanicus and the Tau(which will inevitably end with a Turbolaster to the face for the Tau) and they are lending the Titans services to them in exchange for something.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
Grey Templar wrote:You simply arn't qualified to discuss this subject because you havn't read the source material.
This is GW writing, they don't use logic in it.
Purists don't want that stuff because we like the setting how it is.
It's like you took literally everything wrong with 40k and the people who play it and stuck it in one post. I take back what I said before, THIS is what I hate about fluff discussion.
And as for ignoring things once they've been "brought to my attention", simply saying that a book answers things doesn't cut it. If you're not going to actually cite things in it, you might as well be saying "it's in there, I swear, just read the whole thing". You can't say that I've been wrong about everything without citing specific things I'm wrong about. You guys keep coming into this thread saying that it couldn't happen in vague posts, without ever actually refuting the 10+ scenarios constructed by the rest of us that would allow it even under the current fluff.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
The book title was cited, thats all you need to find the information. Page numbers are nice, but not a requirement. Especially in this informal setting called the Internet.
If I was arguing some other topic and I cited a book noone in the audience owned my point would still be valid. They would have to go find a copy, but the point still stands.
You have been told where to find the information. Now its on you to go verify it.
44326
Post by: DeffDred
Thank you Grey Templar.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
If you're not going to actually cite things in it, you might as well be saying "it's in there, I swear, just read the whole thing".
As for this...
It is in there. Read the whole thing. The entire book points out the faults in the debate.
The AdMech are infact robots, who follow a strict dogma. Machine spirits do exist and are fully aware of whats going on around them.
Many other points are brought up aswell. These points are also brought up by actions in the novel, not from characters point of view but from the story itself.
The book also explains how important a titan is and how difficult it is to use. Tau simply don't have the right mindset for a warhound titan.
The wouldn't be able to use the titan without removing the machine spirit. And that, is nearly impossible... as even the AdMech makes an atempt and is unsuccessful.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
DeffDred wrote:Thank you Grey Templar.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
If you're not going to actually cite things in it, you might as well be saying "it's in there, I swear, just read the whole thing".
As for this...
It is in there. Read the whole thing. The entire book points out the faults in the debate.
The AdMech are infact robots, who follow a strict dogma. Machine spirits do exist and are fully aware of whats going on around them.
Many other points are brought up aswell. These points are also brought up by actions in the novel, not from characters point of view but from the story itself.
The book also explains how important a titan is and how difficult it is to use. Tau simply don't have the right mindset for a warhound titan.
The wouldn't be able to use the titan without removing the machine spirit. And that, is nearly impossible... as even the AdMech makes an atempt and is unsuccessful.
Even with 100% of these things being true, there are still obvious workarounds the tau can take. If you are saying "always" or "never" in a fluff argument, you are wrong from the start. There is no such thing in fiction as "always" or "never".
When you take extreme always or never positions in a fluff argument, you are really hurting the game and scaring people away from being interested in the fluff. When people make fun of 40k and the people who play it, they are making fun of people like you guys. The OP wanted to make a tau titan and half the thread is fluffholes popping in to say it's a stupid idea.
Be productive. You have a lot of fluff knowledge, if you can't come up with some cornercase that would allow for the OP to accomplish what they want without breaking your rigid view of canon, no matter how unlikely said case would be, then you probably shouldn't bother posting in a thread asking how to do it.
And no, saying it's in a book still doesn't count. Go down to off topic and tell people that your economic position is best and they should just read a book by this one economist and see how far that gets you. In the real world, we have to actually establish our arguments. We do not get to just point to a book and ask someone to make our arguments for us. I can't respond properly to your argument if you don't actually make one. If you want to cite a passage, I can actually say something about it, but "the entire book" is not actually a rational argument. That's just you not feeling like backing up your views and using a book as a means to shut down discussion you disagree with. Automatically Appended Next Post: KingDeath wrote:The Tau themselfs are unlikely to ever create titans. Large bipedal walkers are a rather impractical concept for a warmachine if you think about it ( the Mechanicus might have other reasons than pure practicality to build titans while the Tau probably won't ) so it is more likely that the titan has been originaly built by the techlords of mars.
While titans aren't their style, I could still justify them prototyping one to test the concept.
40749
Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Grey Templar wrote:That is possable, but like you said the Titan wouldn't be alone. unless there was some bargain struck between the Dark Mechanicus and the Tau(which will inevitably end with a Turbolaster to the face for the Tau) and they are lending the Titans services to them in exchange for something.
I wasn't actually thinking of the Dark Mechanicus, but that could work too.
Still, it shouldn't be on its own amongst a load of Tau, but also be protected by forces loyal to the Titan force. I'd assume that both Dark and Imperial Mechancius revere Titans. The Tau designing their own Warhound Titan would be a huge achievement.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The Tau designing their own Warhound Titan would be a huge achievement.
Especially since their design philosophy would result in something vastly different if they did make one.
Still, there is the possibility that enough frame and armor was left in the wreckage of one that the tau could assemble it around a tau computer and power source for the purposes of training against it or testing weapons or something. The model doesn't really tell us anything about what's happening inside. It could just be the outer shell of a titan wrapped around hammerhead parts, who knows?
If you allow that to happen, then you open up the possibility that it gets used in battle in an emergency.
47662
Post by: homsikpanda
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Not a titan but still a superheavy warmachine :
this one is mine , but I have seen bipedal ones....not a huge fan myself, grav tanks are much more Tau-ish, IMHO
pretty
not really a titan though :c
i could just use a manta in place of that and get pretty much the same effect =/
maybe i could use a gundam model from my local hobby shop? xD
46864
Post by: Deadshot
Just say that the titan was a last survivor and imperial forces have teamed up with tau out of common enemy.
25208
Post by: AlmightyWalrus
Deadshot wrote:Besides, in Apocalypse any armies can ally so it is ok.
How about this, if you need it desperatly.
Whatever planet the tau invaded already had a conflict. Remanents of Titan legions including said warhound joined forces to give a better chance of defeating the enemy.
Hell, if you are fightinf Nids call it Hice Fleet Gorgon. At the end of that hive fleet's attack, an imperial army lost in the warp, actually sent to destroy the tau, teamed up with then to beat the nids. Read the nid dex for mire.
Now THIS sounds believable! Problem solved, everyone's happy!
44326
Post by: DeffDred
Even with 100% of these things being true, there are still obvious workarounds the tau COULD take IN MY OPINION. If you are saying "always" or "never" in a fluff argument, you are TAKING A STRONG STANCE. There is no such thing in fiction as "always" or "never", EXCEPT THINGS LIKE "SPACE MARINES NEVER MATE WITH WOMEN, OR DOZENS OF OTHER SUBJECTS".
When you take extreme always or never positions in a fluff argument, you are really hurting MY FEELINGS and scaring ME away from being interested in the fluff. When people make fun of 40k and the people who play it, THEY ARE ENTITED TO THEIR OWN OPINION. The OP wanted to make a tau titan and half the thread is fluffholes popping in to say it's a stupid idea.
Be productive. You have a lot of fluff knowledge, if you can't come up with some cornercase that would allow for the OP to accomplish what they want without breaking your rigid view of canon, no matter how unlikely said case would be, then you probably SHOULD EXPLAIN TO THE OP THAT THEY MAY RECEIVE ALOT OF FLAKK.
And no, saying it's in a book still doesn't count (Unless I'm talking about the bible right?). **Removed because it makes no sense**. In the INTERWEBZ, we DON'T have to actually establish our arguments AS TONS OF REFERENCE MATERIAL CAN BE FOUND AT A WHIM. We do not get to just point to a book and ask someone to make our arguments for us WE SIMPLY EXPECT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT THE SUBJECT MATTER IS. I can't respond properly to your argument if you don't actually make one (Which I did.). If you want to cite a passage, I can actually say something about it, but "the entire book" is not actually a rational argument BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO READ A BOOK WHOSE CONTENT COMPLETELY BACKS UP WHAT YOU CLAIM . IMHO That's just you not feeling like backing up your views and using a book as a means to shut down discussion you CLEARLY KNOW MORE ABOUT THAN ME.
There. Fixed that for you.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
DeffDred wrote:Even with 100% of these things being true, there are still obvious workarounds the tau COULD take IN MY OPINION. If you are saying "always" or "never" in a fluff argument, you are TAKING A STRONG STANCE. There is no such thing in fiction as "always" or "never", EXCEPT THINGS LIKE "SPACE MARINES NEVER MATE WITH WOMEN, OR DOZENS OF OTHER SUBJECTS".
When you take extreme always or never positions in a fluff argument, you are really hurting MY FEELINGS and scaring ME away from being interested in the fluff. When people make fun of 40k and the people who play it, THEY ARE ENTITED TO THEIR OWN OPINION. The OP wanted to make a tau titan and half the thread is fluffholes popping in to say it's a stupid idea.
Be productive. You have a lot of fluff knowledge, if you can't come up with some cornercase that would allow for the OP to accomplish what they want without breaking your rigid view of canon, no matter how unlikely said case would be, then you probably SHOULD EXPLAIN TO THE OP THAT THEY MAY RECEIVE ALOT OF FLAKK.
And no, saying it's in a book still doesn't count (Unless I'm talking about the bible right?). **Removed because it makes no sense**. In the INTERWEBZ, we DON'T have to actually establish our arguments AS TONS OF REFERENCE MATERIAL CAN BE FOUND AT A WHIM. We do not get to just point to a book and ask someone to make our arguments for us WE SIMPLY EXPECT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT THE SUBJECT MATTER IS. I can't respond properly to your argument if you don't actually make one (Which I did.). If you want to cite a passage, I can actually say something about it, but "the entire book" is not actually a rational argument BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO READ A BOOK WHOSE CONTENT COMPLETELY BACKS UP WHAT YOU CLAIM . IMHO That's just you not feeling like backing up your views and using a book as a means to shut down discussion you CLEARLY KNOW MORE ABOUT THAN ME.
There. Fixed that for you.
Wait, did you really put in there that we don't have to actually present evidence because there is information on the internet?
No that's not how argument works. You can't just make an argument without backing it up. I don't care if all of the information in the world is on a wiki somewhere, you still have to link to it and quote it. I am not obligated to make your argument for you. You have to demonstrate your own thesis and you simply have not done so.
44326
Post by: DeffDred
No that's not how argument works. You can't just make an argument without backing it up. I don't care if all of the information in the world is on a wiki somewhere, you still have to link to it and quote it. I am not obligated to make your argument for you. You have to demonstrate your own thesis and you simply have not done so
So you are the master on how to argue? I think were doing a pretty good job without following your mystery rules.
I can make any argument I want without backing it up. Infact, according to you, that's all I've been doing.
I don't have to link or quote anything. What I said is COMMON knowlege. If you don't want to do research than don't speak up.
You have gone completely off-topic in the defence of your ignorance.
I don't have the time, nor do I care enough, to read through the pile of books, magazines and comics in the closet behind me just to have to retype an entire book to show you what I'm talking about.
This isn't a debate on how YOU want to discuss things. It's a debate over how the OP could include a Warhound Titan model in his Tau force.
My opinion, based on years of reading GW, BL and other publications, is that not only is it silly but completely unrealistic to the fluff in any way, shape or form.
The Tau do not "loot" vehicles and would consider the Titan to be so far from what they precieve as the proper way of war that a Shas'O would be embarassed to be caught piloting one.
Why would the Tau want to controll a giant target with a few large guns when already have an army of robotic suits covered in weapons that zip about the battlefeild?
Again, if you haven't read the book Titanicus (which goes into great detail on the lives of a titan crew and the lives of the people who live on a titan forgeworld), the Titan comics (which gives good info and visual reference), the Tau codex (which discusses the Tau way of war and ideology), Warhammer 40k Rogue Trader (which lays down the earlier belief structure of the Mechanicus), and dozens of other sorce materials such as rule books other novels and comics, than you shouldn't chime in and say "you are wrong".
You sir, have also not given any reasons to disprove my statements other than "you didn't make a bibliography in your post".
If you don't want to take the time to learn more about the warhammer universes that your problem, not mine.
I've already done my homework. Maybe you should too.
34249
Post by: Igenstilch
Use an Armored Core toy model of some other japanese mecha that you can add some tau looking weapons to and your gold for a warhound, problem solved.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004M6WS30/ref=oh_o00_s00_i00_details
47877
Post by: Jefffar
In most discussions I've been in that drew upon a printed work as evidence, it was accepted that the proper form would be to provide relevant page numbers for the convenience of the other participants in the discussion.
In my more formal debates and discussions even more elaborate citations would be necessary.
21312
Post by: BeRzErKeR
Jefffar wrote:In most discussions I've been in that drew upon a printed work as evidence, it was accepted that the proper form would be to provide relevant page numbers for the convenience of the other participants in the discussion.
In my more formal debates and discussions even more elaborate citations would be necessary.
This.
If you're going to claim that a printed source backs up an argument you are making, then yes, the onus is on you to provide a relevant quote. If you're not interested in doing that, then you shouldn't be making that particular argument.
46926
Post by: Kaldor
Rented Tritium wrote:You can't just make an argument without backing it up. I don't care if all of the information in the world is on a wiki somewhere, you still have to link to it and quote it. I am not obligated to make your argument for you. You have to demonstrate your own thesis and you simply have not done so.
Says who? It's no ones job here to educate you so you can argue. If you're interested in the subject matter, go have a read.
If you want to stay ignorant, thats your business.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
Kaldor wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:You can't just make an argument without backing it up. I don't care if all of the information in the world is on a wiki somewhere, you still have to link to it and quote it. I am not obligated to make your argument for you. You have to demonstrate your own thesis and you simply have not done so.
Says who? It's no ones job here to educate you so you can argue. If you're interested in the subject matter, go have a read.
If you want to stay ignorant, thats your business.
Says everyone who argues with other adults.
Are you five years old? When you debate things with someone, you are expected to actually back up your arguments. Saying to read a book without specifying a passage or page number is just as helpful as saying "go back to school". It's simply not a reasonable argument.
I can't believe I have to explain this to adults.
47662
Post by: homsikpanda
hmm... it sounds interesting
i might consider it at a later time, but, tbh i was just mostly looking for an excuse to use a warhound with my tau
iom smells funny <.<
Rented Tritium wrote:Kaldor wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:You can't just make an argument without backing it up. I don't care if all of the information in the world is on a wiki somewhere, you still have to link to it and quote it. I am not obligated to make your argument for you. You have to demonstrate your own thesis and you simply have not done so.
Says who? It's no ones job here to educate you so you can argue. If you're interested in the subject matter, go have a read.
If you want to stay ignorant, thats your business.
Says everyone who argues with other adults.
Are you five years old? When you debate things with someone, you are expected to actually back up your arguments. Saying to read a book without specifying a passage or page number is just as helpful as saying "go back to school". It's simply not a reasonable argument.
I can't believe I have to explain this to adults.
does an arguement even really matter anymore if the op stopped caring/paying attention pages ago?
32955
Post by: Coolyo294
homsikpanda wrote:
hmm... it sounds interesting
i might consider it at a later time, but, tbh i was just mostly looking for an excuse to use a warhound with my tau
iom smells funny <.<
Rented Tritium wrote:Kaldor wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:You can't just make an argument without backing it up. I don't care if all of the information in the world is on a wiki somewhere, you still have to link to it and quote it. I am not obligated to make your argument for you. You have to demonstrate your own thesis and you simply have not done so.
Says who? It's no ones job here to educate you so you can argue. If you're interested in the subject matter, go have a read.
If you want to stay ignorant, thats your business.
Says everyone who argues with other adults.
Are you five years old? When you debate things with someone, you are expected to actually back up your arguments. Saying to read a book without specifying a passage or page number is just as helpful as saying "go back to school". It's simply not a reasonable argument.
I can't believe I have to explain this to adults.
does an arguement even really matter anymore if the op stopped caring/paying attention pages ago?
They won't care. People on the Internet love to argue.
29120
Post by: NH Gunsmith
These should help;
Titanicus page 477 first full paragraph.
"Gearhart knew fury. It had become his name and his reputation, but his fury was not mindless. It was clinical, it was controlled. At its peak, it was so ruthless and methodical that Gearhart was scared of himself. He was scared at his capacity for destruction. When he allowed himself to be engulfed by the Red Fury, he let go to the machine spirit. He let go to the MIU and the sentient rage that blazed inside Invictus Antagonistes's reactors."
Page 478 second paragraph
"Gearhart didn't know their names, but he knew them all the same. They were the princeps who had commanded Antagonistes down through the ages, an honour roll that dated back ten thousand years to Mars, and the birth of the Imperium, and the death of innocence. They represented a legacy no man, not even Gearhart, could ever fully measure up to. The MIU had summoned them all forth to witness Gearhart's final action."
here is a long one,
Page 506-507
"<Listen to me, all of you,> Kung canted. <This isn't up for debate, and there's no time for discussion. Link you MIUs directly to my engine. Slave to me your auspex and fire control systems. Grant me authority over your Titans.>
<Manifold linkage of MIUs is forbidden!> Theron of Stridex canted.
<If we open our impulses to the Manifold, we could risk scrapcode invasion and corruption!> declared Philostartes of Antrox Terribilis.
replied Kung.
<Do it now.>
The images of the princeps blinked away as fast as they had appeared. Kung shivered as he felt the links being enabled. He heard the growls and snarls of dozens of other engines, as if he was inside them. He tasted sweaty, unwholesome floodstream secretions, as if all the other princeps were inside his casket with him.
The sensory load was numbing. He moaned in distress at the weight pulling at his mind. To be linked to one engine was to chain a feral beast in your head. To be linked, simultaneously, to many, was to peer over the lip of the abyss into hell.
Kung shuddered, fighting off the rancid tongues of insanity that licked and crisped the edges of his mind. He attained clarity for a second. Existential shockwaves rippled through him. Kung was used to being a giant, but now he was many giants, linked together, a giant giant, bigger than even the howling Imperator that rose before him. He was third group, and the second front, and the remains of fourth group. He was the centre of a whirling, roaring mass of sentience as brilliantly savage as a supernova and as catastrophically heavy as a black hole."
Page 126
"<I'm sorry, sir. It's my belief that every engine has a unique character, complete with its own foibles and quirks. No two are alike, even if they are the same pattern. They are, by the grace of the Omnissiah, living things, after all.>;"
Page 163 third paragraph
"His left hand became a Vulcan mega-bolter. His right hand became a plasma blastgun. His sleeves, his leather jacket, became dense ceramite armour, twenty centi-measures thick, the rain tapping off it. His legs became back-hinged limbs with vast, metal toes splayed in the Orestean mire. His heart became a furnace that throbbed unpleasantly like a chained sun. In his himd, another intellect, invasive and alien, bristled and growled like a hunting dog, an angry, barely trained attack dog ready to snap its choke-chain and-"
Page 165 first paragraph
"It was never a joy when it came (talking about replugging into the titan's MIU). The ancient mind impulse units of veteran engines were surly and cantankerous, resentful at being woken, forwards in their response to instruction. It always took a while to regain trust and re-establish cooperation. It was like breaking in the same, rebellious steed every time you saddled it, or bringing to heel a ferocious dog.
Morbius Sire was an obdurate creature. Orfuls had guided its MIU through seventeen execution campaigns, during which they had made six hundred and eight confirmed kills on targets classified as heavy armour (various) or above. Even so, it still fought him. It tested him, despite the tally they had chalked up together, tonne for tonne the best kill ratio in Invicta.
Found most of them by just flipping through the book randomly, there are many more examples of these types of passages and those of the Titan support staff and Skitaarii sacrificing themselves to protect a Titan.
Fifth paragraph down on web page.
"Imperial Titans are unique in the sense that their computer mind-cores are sentient, albeit in a highly-erratic manner. This is in contrast with the usually non-sentient "machine spirits" or onboard computer systems found in many other Imperial war machines like tanks and armored vehicles. In the "Titan" comic, the newly connected Princeps was formally greeted by Imperius Dictatio inside its mental landscape; there was also Laudator Magnificat, which was forcibly reactivated after falling in combat. This proved disastrous: the mind-core had suffered severe psychological trauma from its "death", and began attacking everything in sight in its mindless rage."
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Titan
Found under Titan Crew
"The commander of a Titan is an individual who is a member of the Adeptus Mechanicus' Collegia Titanica called the Princeps, a rare individual in that he can retain his sanity after connecting with the "Machine Spirit" (computerized artificial intelligence) of the Titan through an MIU (Mind Interlink Unit) neural interface. The Princeps controls the Titan by means of the mental link provided by the MIU. Using this ancient technology, the Princeps merges his or her consciousness with the Titan's sentient 'machine spirit'--its artificial intelligence. After doing so, he/she can guide its movements and weapons as though it were an extension of his/her body, and provides a greatly heightened perception of the battlefield. It requires a strong will to maintain this connection, and Titans can go out of control on rampages of destruction should the Princeps fail to maintain dominance over its sentience. Particularly ancient and war-worn Titans are known to hold neural imprints of all their previous Princeps' personalities in their machine spirit. There has also been noted rare instances where a Princeps has died while connected to the Titan, thus creating a digital 'ghost' of themselves that remains inside the Titan's machine spirit. This is often referred to as a "ghost in the link". "
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Titan
31733
Post by: Brother Coa
Even if I don't support this idea I can say to OP - go ahead. I to am planing of buying a Manta and putting Blood Raven Chapter insignia all over it
Now for fluff reasons why is this a bad idea.
-Because Titans are not part o the imperial Guard but Adeptus Mechanicus, and can be only found on a big Forgeworlds - none of witch is in close proximity of the Tau Empire.
-Machine spirit is sophisticated thing that is hard to succumb ( it was noted few times on Dakka that even Chaos Mechanicus have hard time to kill it ), and can autodestruct a vehicle if he just sense a chance of being captured.
-Titan machine spirit is even more sophisticated then ordinary one.It is linked with Princeps is such way that if Princeps die and another one is not found soon the Titan Machine Spirit will die soon. It can even fry the intruder's brain if he detects that he is not Princeps at all ( source: Dan Abnett's [i]Titan[/] ). Giving that Tau are not Humans at all they could never merge with Titan machine Spirit and survive.
-Titans are only shipped to the great and important battlezones. None major conflict is happening in Tau space of influence. And they are always protected from intruders by Skitarii inside it.
But it is your miniature and your choice, like someone said here to me: "Imperial factions should stay Imperial and Xeno factions should stay Xeno."
27391
Post by: purplefood
Brother Coa wrote:Even if I don't support this idea I can say to OP - go ahead. I to am planing of buying a Manta and putting Blood Raven Chapter insignia all over it
Now for fluff reasons why is this a bad idea.
-Because Titans are not part o the imperial Guard but Adeptus Mechanicus, and can be only found on a big Forgeworlds - none of witch is in close proximity of the Tau Empire.
-Machine spirit is sophisticated thing that is hard to succumb ( it was noted few times on Dakka that even Chaos Mechanicus have hard time to kill it ), and can autodestruct a vehicle if he just sense a chance of being captured.
-Titan machine spirit is even more sophisticated then ordinary one.It is linked with Princeps is such way that if Princeps die and another one is not found soon the Titan Machine Spirit will die soon. It can even fry the intruder's brain if he detects that he is not Princeps at all ( source: Dan Abnett's [i]Titan[/] ). Giving that Tau are not Humans at all they could never merge with Titan machine Spirit and survive.
-Titans are only shipped to the great and important battlezones. None major conflict is happening in Tau space of influence. And they are always protected from intruders by Skitarii inside it.
But it is your miniature and your choice, like someone said here to me: "Imperial factions should stay Imperial and Xeno factions should stay Xeno."
Bold-Not true. They are made by the larger/more productive Forgeworlds but most of the time the Legio is walking on a plane.
Red-I do not remember this being in Titanicus...
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Post by: Brother Coa
That wasn't what i meant. They are build and kept at Forge Worlds then shipped in various war zones all across the Imperum.
And not Titanicus, Titan - an graphic novel by Dan Abnett.
34605
Post by: spireland
This thread is reaching Star Trek vs Star Wars levels.
Besides, who cares,do what you want and let the fluff freaks brains explode.
31733
Post by: Brother Coa
That wasn't what i meant. They are build and kept at Forge Worlds then shipped in various war zones all across the Imperum.
And not Titanicus, Titan - an graphic novel by Dan Abnett.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:These should help;
tons of quotes
Finally, man.
By rebuttal is that those certainly establish the machine spirit as being sentient and very powerful. Awesome! This means you are a much better poster than anyone else so far! Unfortunately, they don't establish the machine spirit as being an unremovable part of the walker OR as automatically hating and refusing to work with tau unless I missed something in there. You obviously have the books handy, do you know of anything like that?
See the issue? Just establishing that the machine spirit works in a certain way doesn't in any way preclude the possibility of the Tau getting a titan to work. Suppose the titan's computer has been completely destroyed and the tau fill it up with drone brains. There's nothing on those quotes that says this won't work.
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Post by: purplefood
Brother Coa wrote:That wasn't what i meant. They are build and kept at Forge Worlds then shipped in various war zones all across the Imperum.
And not Titanicus, Titan - an graphic novel by Dan Abnett.
Fair enough then...
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
spireland wrote:This thread is reaching Star Trek vs Star Wars levels.
Besides, who cares,do what you want and let the fluff freaks brains explode.
Because some of us like to work our ideas into fluff. I hate this idea that you have to either be a completely 100% ridid fluff freak or you have to ignore fluff altogether. There's a fantastic range of hypothetical happenings that can fit within fluff if you aren't insane about it.
I like to treat it more like comic book canon where hypothetical scenarios are absolutely the bread and butter.
27391
Post by: purplefood
Rented Tritium wrote:spireland wrote:This thread is reaching Star Trek vs Star Wars levels.
Besides, who cares,do what you want and let the fluff freaks brains explode.
Because some of us like to work our ideas into fluff. I hate this idea that you have to either be a completely 100% ridid fluff freak or you have to ignore fluff altogether. There's a fantastic range of hypothetical happenings that can fit within fluff if you aren't insane about it.
True but there are something which you have to compromise on...
A Tau super-heavy is easily feasible. But just getting a Warhound and saying the Tau stole it is lazy...
Frankly Tau could probably make some pretty cool super-heavies...
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:spireland wrote:This thread is reaching Star Trek vs Star Wars levels.
Besides, who cares,do what you want and let the fluff freaks brains explode.
Because some of us like to work our ideas into fluff. I hate this idea that you have to either be a completely 100% ridid fluff freak or you have to ignore fluff altogether. There's a fantastic range of hypothetical happenings that can fit within fluff if you aren't insane about it.
True but there are something which you have to compromise on...
A Tau super-heavy is easily feasible. But just getting a Warhound and saying the Tau stole it is lazy...
Frankly Tau could probably make some pretty cool super-heavies...
It's only lazy if you do it in a lazy way. That's the nature of writing.
And honestly, there is NOTHING more lazy than "it would never happen"
27391
Post by: purplefood
Rented Tritium wrote:purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:spireland wrote:This thread is reaching Star Trek vs Star Wars levels.
Besides, who cares,do what you want and let the fluff freaks brains explode.
Because some of us like to work our ideas into fluff. I hate this idea that you have to either be a completely 100% ridid fluff freak or you have to ignore fluff altogether. There's a fantastic range of hypothetical happenings that can fit within fluff if you aren't insane about it.
True but there are something which you have to compromise on...
A Tau super-heavy is easily feasible. But just getting a Warhound and saying the Tau stole it is lazy...
Frankly Tau could probably make some pretty cool super-heavies...
It's only lazy if you do it in a lazy way. That's the nature of writing.
True but there are easier and IMO better alternatives.
If you really want a Tau Warhound (as in they own it and it isn't just part of a joint strikeforce, though that is a great idea) it would take some working...
IMO it's simpler to go a different route...
29120
Post by: NH Gunsmith
I'd like to see a Tau Titan made to look like a very large crisis suit, although with heavier armour.
And, I was just flipping through the book randomly, will see what I can find on converting a Titan for non-human use.
Is the Tau thought process and brain functionality the same as a humans? What I wonder is how the Tau brain would handle the stress of being plugged into an Imperial Titan.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:spireland wrote:This thread is reaching Star Trek vs Star Wars levels.
Besides, who cares,do what you want and let the fluff freaks brains explode.
Because some of us like to work our ideas into fluff. I hate this idea that you have to either be a completely 100% ridid fluff freak or you have to ignore fluff altogether. There's a fantastic range of hypothetical happenings that can fit within fluff if you aren't insane about it.
True but there are something which you have to compromise on...
A Tau super-heavy is easily feasible. But just getting a Warhound and saying the Tau stole it is lazy...
Frankly Tau could probably make some pretty cool super-heavies...
It's only lazy if you do it in a lazy way. That's the nature of writing.
True but there are easier and IMO better alternatives.
If you really want a Tau Warhound (as in they own it and it isn't just part of a joint strikeforce, though that is a great idea) it would take some working...
IMO it's simpler to go a different route...
It might be. And that's the discussion that we could have had a great time having if everyone hadn't jumped in to say no.
Instead of saying that something couldn't happen, people in fluff forums need to come up with ways to make it work. I absolutely guarantee that the rigid fluff guys in this thread, if they weren't so opposed to the idea itself, could come up with some amazing ways for this to work within canon. If they've read that much about it, they absolutely know of some combination of magical whatever macguffins in some short story somewhere that would make it happen and make it happen awesome. This universe has so much stuff in it that there's no way there isn't some obscure ork warboss that can eat machine spirits or whatever. You are just not being creative enough if you say never ever ever.
When you talk with comic nerds about who would win in a fight, you get all kinds of awesome answers and hypotheticals. It's great times. In 40k fluff threads, you just get 100 people telling you something would "never" happen and that's just lazy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:I'd like to see a Tau Titan made to look like a very large crisis suit, although with heavier armour.
And, I was just flipping through the book randomly, will see what I can find on converting a Titan for non-human use.
Is the Tau thought process and brain functionality the same as a humans? What I wonder is how the Tau brain would handle the stress of being plugged into an Imperial Titan.
Yeah I don't know how tau brains compare to humans. That's probably important. Another good question is, can the titan tell if the pilot is being mind controlled? If the ethereal mind control stuff is true (and I like to think it is, since it's more grimdark) then an ethereal could theoretically mind control a gue'vesa pilot into believing he's fighting for the emperor. Would the titan believe it? That seems narrow enough it might not have been addressed yet in the fiction.
As for the tau making their own, while it wouldn't fit their style by default, one could construct a long drawn out war on a profoundly rocky planet that might necessitate walking tanks over hovertanks, but knowing the tau, I'm imagining something more like a 4 legged orca, but it's not outside of the reasonable that they'd at the very least prototype a big 2 legged walker to see if it's worth developing. Then, said prototype gets caught on the front and voila!
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Post by: purplefood
Rented Tritium wrote:
It might be. And that's the discussion that we could have had a great time having if everyone hadn't jumped in to say no.
Instead of saying that something couldn't happen, people in fluff forums need to come up with ways to make it work. I absolutely guarantee that the rigid fluff guys in this thread, if they weren't so opposed to the idea itself, could come up with some amazing ways for this to work within canon. If they've read that much about it, they absolutely know of some combination of magical whatever macguffins in some short story somewhere that would make it happen and make it happen awesome. This universe has so much stuff in it that there's no way there isn't some obscure ork warboss that can eat machine spirits or whatever. You are just not being creative enough if you say never ever ever.
When you talk with comic nerds about who would win in a fight, you get all kinds of awesome answers and hypotheticals. It's great times. In 40k fluff threads, you just get 100 people telling you something would "never" happen and that's just lazy.
I suppose...
The Tau could have copied an Imperial Warhound...
I mean Warhounds are the least complex, so it would be possible to piece it together and fill in the gaps.
They have their own version of AI so they could use that. They have mental links so they can use those...
It wouldn't have quite the same capabilities. Enhanced accuracy and range but probably a decrease in maneuverability due to pilot skill levels unless they were a veteran pilot and even then they'd need substantial re-training...
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:
It might be. And that's the discussion that we could have had a great time having if everyone hadn't jumped in to say no.
Instead of saying that something couldn't happen, people in fluff forums need to come up with ways to make it work. I absolutely guarantee that the rigid fluff guys in this thread, if they weren't so opposed to the idea itself, could come up with some amazing ways for this to work within canon. If they've read that much about it, they absolutely know of some combination of magical whatever macguffins in some short story somewhere that would make it happen and make it happen awesome. This universe has so much stuff in it that there's no way there isn't some obscure ork warboss that can eat machine spirits or whatever. You are just not being creative enough if you say never ever ever.
When you talk with comic nerds about who would win in a fight, you get all kinds of awesome answers and hypotheticals. It's great times. In 40k fluff threads, you just get 100 people telling you something would "never" happen and that's just lazy.
I suppose...
The Tau could have copied an Imperial Warhound...
I mean Warhounds are the least complex, so it would be possible to piece it together and fill in the gaps.
They have their own version of AI so they could use that. They have mental links so they can use those...
It wouldn't have quite the same capabilities. Enhanced accuracy and range but probably a decrease in maneuverability due to pilot skill levels unless they were a veteran pilot and even then they'd need substantial re-training...
I think even if it DID have the same capabilities, it would not be quite as good in the hands of the tau without some serious adaptation.
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Post by: purplefood
Rented Tritium wrote:purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:
It might be. And that's the discussion that we could have had a great time having if everyone hadn't jumped in to say no.
Instead of saying that something couldn't happen, people in fluff forums need to come up with ways to make it work. I absolutely guarantee that the rigid fluff guys in this thread, if they weren't so opposed to the idea itself, could come up with some amazing ways for this to work within canon. If they've read that much about it, they absolutely know of some combination of magical whatever macguffins in some short story somewhere that would make it happen and make it happen awesome. This universe has so much stuff in it that there's no way there isn't some obscure ork warboss that can eat machine spirits or whatever. You are just not being creative enough if you say never ever ever.
When you talk with comic nerds about who would win in a fight, you get all kinds of awesome answers and hypotheticals. It's great times. In 40k fluff threads, you just get 100 people telling you something would "never" happen and that's just lazy.
I suppose...
The Tau could have copied an Imperial Warhound...
I mean Warhounds are the least complex, so it would be possible to piece it together and fill in the gaps.
They have their own version of AI so they could use that. They have mental links so they can use those...
It wouldn't have quite the same capabilities. Enhanced accuracy and range but probably a decrease in maneuverability due to pilot skill levels unless they were a veteran pilot and even then they'd need substantial re-training...
I think even if it DID have the same capabilities, it would not be quite as good in the hands of the tau without some serious adaptation.
Indeed...
Tau think in different ways to Humans...
They would also need to develop strategies for these machines. I feel there would be some ingrained resistance against them from the Fire Cast. They don't perfectly suit their tactical or strategic mindset.
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Post by: NH Gunsmith
Also, if the Titan has a ghost imprint of it's former princeps. Than I feel that the Tau would not being to convert it to their cause due to the memories of the human living on inside of the Titan
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Post by: purplefood
ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:Also, if the Titan has a ghost imprint of it's former princeps. Than I feel that the Tau would not being to convert it to their cause due to the memories of the human living on inside of the Titan
We've moved on...
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Post by: NH Gunsmith
Ah, sorry.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:Also, if the Titan has a ghost imprint of it's former princeps. Than I feel that the Tau would not being to convert it to their cause due to the memories of the human living on inside of the Titan
Well, what are the mechanics of that element? Where is the ghost stored? Is it part of the computer, the engine? How irreducible is the titan as a unit? If you remove parts of a titan, does the ghost stay in the remaining part or do bits of the ghost go with the parts? In a lot of possible scenarios, they've removed a lot of the internals anyway, so if the ghost is in those then it's not as much of an issue. If the ghost haunts the frame, then there are questions of irreducibility.
Also, how much resistance can the ghost put up? Is it something the pilot would have to fight with willpower or is it more powerful? That might be an interesting bit of grimdark. The pilot has to do battle with the ghost constantly, but since he's tau, he doesn't really believe it's a ghost and is convinced it's just a security mechanism. Maybe the ethereal has to constantly babysit him to keep him from going out of control? Lots of interesting plot devices are potentially there.
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Post by: NH Gunsmith
You would have to remove the MIU, which would just make it a big hunk of metal, it's like giving it a lobotomy. And yes, sorry to quote Titanicus, but the ghosts can interract with the princeps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the Titan, since somehow the princeps becomes one with the sentient core of the Titan
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Post by: purplefood
Rented Tritium wrote:ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:Also, if the Titan has a ghost imprint of it's former princeps. Than I feel that the Tau would not being to convert it to their cause due to the memories of the human living on inside of the Titan
Well, what are the mechanics of that element? Where is the ghost stored? Is it part of the computer, the engine? How irreducible is the titan as a unit? If you remove parts of a titan, does the ghost stay in the remaining part or do bits of the ghost go with the parts? In a lot of possible scenarios, they've removed a lot of the internals anyway, so if the ghost is in those then it's not as much of an issue. If the ghost haunts the frame, then there are questions of irreducibility.
Also, how much resistance can the ghost put up? Is it something the pilot would have to fight with willpower or is it more powerful? That might be an interesting bit of grimdark. The pilot has to do battle with the ghost constantly, but since he's tau, he doesn't really believe it's a ghost and is convinced it's just a security mechanism. Maybe the ethereal has to constantly babysit him to keep him from going out of control? Lots of interesting plot devices are potentially there.
It seems to be the kind of thing that can hide in any system of the titan...
It could hide away until a new pilot was plugged in and ambush them.
Gearheart is shown to be losing his mind ever so slowly, forgetting names and places to the machine despite having an iron will and knowing it was happening.
To a Tau it would either drive him insane even quicker (depending on willpower) or slower due to the ghost being the machine spirit mixed with the remnants of the human pilots. Alien thoughts are never pleasant, less so when they're in your head...
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:You would have to remove the MIU, which would just make it a big hunk of metal, it's like giving it a lobotomy. And yes, sorry to quote Titanicus, but the ghosts can interract with the princeps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the Titan, since somehow the princeps becomes one with the sentient core of the Titan
So if they removed the MIU, replaced it with a bunch of drones and other tau tech, you've basically got a zombified titan. How fethed up is that, amirite? And the tau would have no idea they had done something like that. The machine spirit and the ghost would be haunting a tau junkyard somewhere.
So I'm curious about the ghost interacting, how much power does it have? Can it take people over or anything useful like that? Automatically Appended Next Post: purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:Also, if the Titan has a ghost imprint of it's former princeps. Than I feel that the Tau would not being to convert it to their cause due to the memories of the human living on inside of the Titan
Well, what are the mechanics of that element? Where is the ghost stored? Is it part of the computer, the engine? How irreducible is the titan as a unit? If you remove parts of a titan, does the ghost stay in the remaining part or do bits of the ghost go with the parts? In a lot of possible scenarios, they've removed a lot of the internals anyway, so if the ghost is in those then it's not as much of an issue. If the ghost haunts the frame, then there are questions of irreducibility.
Also, how much resistance can the ghost put up? Is it something the pilot would have to fight with willpower or is it more powerful? That might be an interesting bit of grimdark. The pilot has to do battle with the ghost constantly, but since he's tau, he doesn't really believe it's a ghost and is convinced it's just a security mechanism. Maybe the ethereal has to constantly babysit him to keep him from going out of control? Lots of interesting plot devices are potentially there.
It seems to be the kind of thing that can hide in any system of the titan...
It could hide away until a new pilot was plugged in and ambush them.
Gearheart is shown to be losing his mind ever so slowly, forgetting names and places to the machine despite having an iron will and knowing it was happening.
To a Tau it would either drive him insane even quicker (depending on willpower) or slower due to the ghost being the machine spirit mixed with the remnants of the human pilots. Alien thoughts are never pleasant, less so when they're in your head...
Yeah man, see, to me that doesn't say tau can't have a titan. To me that says tau can have a titan but only if you have an awesome story about a Shas'o being tortured to death by his own thoughts in there. That's great!
27391
Post by: purplefood
Rented Tritium wrote:ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:You would have to remove the MIU, which would just make it a big hunk of metal, it's like giving it a lobotomy. And yes, sorry to quote Titanicus, but the ghosts can interract with the princeps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the Titan, since somehow the princeps becomes one with the sentient core of the Titan
So if they removed the MIU, replaced it with a bunch of drones and other tau tech, you've basically got a zombified titan. How fethed up is that, amirite? And the tau would have no idea they had done something like that. The machine spirit and the ghost would be haunting a tau junkyard somewhere.
So I'm curious about the ghost interacting, how much power does it have? Can it take people over or anything useful like that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:Also, if the Titan has a ghost imprint of it's former princeps. Than I feel that the Tau would not being to convert it to their cause due to the memories of the human living on inside of the Titan
Well, what are the mechanics of that element? Where is the ghost stored? Is it part of the computer, the engine? How irreducible is the titan as a unit? If you remove parts of a titan, does the ghost stay in the remaining part or do bits of the ghost go with the parts? In a lot of possible scenarios, they've removed a lot of the internals anyway, so if the ghost is in those then it's not as much of an issue. If the ghost haunts the frame, then there are questions of irreducibility.
Also, how much resistance can the ghost put up? Is it something the pilot would have to fight with willpower or is it more powerful? That might be an interesting bit of grimdark. The pilot has to do battle with the ghost constantly, but since he's tau, he doesn't really believe it's a ghost and is convinced it's just a security mechanism. Maybe the ethereal has to constantly babysit him to keep him from going out of control? Lots of interesting plot devices are potentially there.
It seems to be the kind of thing that can hide in any system of the titan...
It could hide away until a new pilot was plugged in and ambush them.
Gearheart is shown to be losing his mind ever so slowly, forgetting names and places to the machine despite having an iron will and knowing it was happening.
To a Tau it would either drive him insane even quicker (depending on willpower) or slower due to the ghost being the machine spirit mixed with the remnants of the human pilots. Alien thoughts are never pleasant, less so when they're in your head...
Yeah man, see, to me that doesn't say tau can't have a titan. To me that says tau can have a titan but only if you have an awesome story about a Shas'o being tortured to death by his own thoughts in there. That's great!
Problem is most Tau players want a titan which they can say is fully Greater Good rather than slowly going insane under the weight of several centuries of memories.
Most Imperials don't want the Tau players to have their titans anyway...
Personally i think that would be hilarious.
29120
Post by: NH Gunsmith
I guess it is feasable, however unlikely haha.
I highly doubt that the Tau's human conscripts have the will power to pilot a Titan.
But, just me going out on a limb, no evidence to back it up besides a bit of cognitive thought from reading around, but I feel if you took out the MIU and used drones instead the Titan would lose most of it's effictiveness due to it's "Character and personality" being lost, heck, and the jimmy rig job to mesh two kinds of alien technology together.
46926
Post by: Kaldor
Rented Tritium wrote:Says everyone who argues with other adults.
Are you five years old? When you debate things with someone, you are expected to actually back up your arguments. Saying to read a book without specifying a passage or page number is just as helpful as saying "go back to school". It's simply not a reasonable argument.
I can't believe I have to explain this to adults.
Firstly, this is the internet, and I don't give a crap if you listen to me or not. Thats your problem.
Secondly, you aren't presenting an argument that needs to be refuted, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to debate from a position of ignorance, thats your choice.
33541
Post by: Rented Tritium
purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:You would have to remove the MIU, which would just make it a big hunk of metal, it's like giving it a lobotomy. And yes, sorry to quote Titanicus, but the ghosts can interract with the princeps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the Titan, since somehow the princeps becomes one with the sentient core of the Titan
So if they removed the MIU, replaced it with a bunch of drones and other tau tech, you've basically got a zombified titan. How fethed up is that, amirite? And the tau would have no idea they had done something like that. The machine spirit and the ghost would be haunting a tau junkyard somewhere.
So I'm curious about the ghost interacting, how much power does it have? Can it take people over or anything useful like that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:Also, if the Titan has a ghost imprint of it's former princeps. Than I feel that the Tau would not being to convert it to their cause due to the memories of the human living on inside of the Titan
Well, what are the mechanics of that element? Where is the ghost stored? Is it part of the computer, the engine? How irreducible is the titan as a unit? If you remove parts of a titan, does the ghost stay in the remaining part or do bits of the ghost go with the parts? In a lot of possible scenarios, they've removed a lot of the internals anyway, so if the ghost is in those then it's not as much of an issue. If the ghost haunts the frame, then there are questions of irreducibility.
Also, how much resistance can the ghost put up? Is it something the pilot would have to fight with willpower or is it more powerful? That might be an interesting bit of grimdark. The pilot has to do battle with the ghost constantly, but since he's tau, he doesn't really believe it's a ghost and is convinced it's just a security mechanism. Maybe the ethereal has to constantly babysit him to keep him from going out of control? Lots of interesting plot devices are potentially there.
It seems to be the kind of thing that can hide in any system of the titan...
It could hide away until a new pilot was plugged in and ambush them.
Gearheart is shown to be losing his mind ever so slowly, forgetting names and places to the machine despite having an iron will and knowing it was happening.
To a Tau it would either drive him insane even quicker (depending on willpower) or slower due to the ghost being the machine spirit mixed with the remnants of the human pilots. Alien thoughts are never pleasant, less so when they're in your head...
Yeah man, see, to me that doesn't say tau can't have a titan. To me that says tau can have a titan but only if you have an awesome story about a Shas'o being tortured to death by his own thoughts in there. That's great!
Problem is most Tau players want a titan which they can say is fully Greater Good rather than slowly going insane under the weight of several centuries of memories.
Most Imperials don't want the Tau players to have their titans anyway...
Personally i think that would be hilarious.
Yeah, a lot of tau players are afraid of darkening them up. I have absolutely no problem with it. I want them to have more dark secrets and bad intentions underneath the shiny facade. The mind control rumors are great because they add to sort of a creepy feeling you get about them. Stuff like this titan idea work right into that. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kaldor wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:Says everyone who argues with other adults.
Are you five years old? When you debate things with someone, you are expected to actually back up your arguments. Saying to read a book without specifying a passage or page number is just as helpful as saying "go back to school". It's simply not a reasonable argument.
I can't believe I have to explain this to adults.
Firstly, this is the internet, and I don't give a crap if you listen to me or not. Thats your problem.
Secondly, you aren't presenting an argument that needs to be refuted, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to debate from a position of ignorance, thats your choice.
See, we just had a full page of productive discussion about this and here you come again with this nonsense. Ignored.
27391
Post by: purplefood
I like this idea...
It is a good idea...
You could really make good use of it.
29120
Post by: NH Gunsmith
Personally, I would love to see the OP sell me that Warhound and use the money to do something grand and scratch build a Tau Titan and than we shall have them duke it out in a Megabattle.
Haha, well I don't foresee the above happening soooooo, I feel that he would have to write a small novel of the backstory for it haha, and reduce it's in game effictiveness and points, due to the modifications the Tau would have to make if they could find a Commander for it who is very un-Tau in his approach to warfare
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Rented Tritium wrote:ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:You would have to remove the MIU, which would just make it a big hunk of metal, it's like giving it a lobotomy. And yes, sorry to quote Titanicus, but the ghosts can interract with the princeps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the Titan, since somehow the princeps becomes one with the sentient core of the Titan
So if they removed the MIU, replaced it with a bunch of drones and other tau tech, you've basically got a zombified titan. How fethed up is that, amirite? And the tau would have no idea they had done something like that. The machine spirit and the ghost would be haunting a tau junkyard somewhere.
So I'm curious about the ghost interacting, how much power does it have? Can it take people over or anything useful like that?
The Ghosts don't appear to be fully sentient, but its debatable. Most likely the ghosts are simply the codified memories and personality of that Princeps and not actually his soul floating arround in there. Although, assuming its possable to download the program of sentience, it is quite possable that he would be practically lucid.
The personality of a Titan doesn't appear to be fully formed when it gets built, its more like the Titan attains its personality over time(by stealing the programming of their Princep's brains)
29120
Post by: NH Gunsmith
just my .02
27391
Post by: purplefood
Grey Templar wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:You would have to remove the MIU, which would just make it a big hunk of metal, it's like giving it a lobotomy. And yes, sorry to quote Titanicus, but the ghosts can interract with the princeps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
and the Titan, since somehow the princeps becomes one with the sentient core of the Titan
So if they removed the MIU, replaced it with a bunch of drones and other tau tech, you've basically got a zombified titan. How fethed up is that, amirite? And the tau would have no idea they had done something like that. The machine spirit and the ghost would be haunting a tau junkyard somewhere.
So I'm curious about the ghost interacting, how much power does it have? Can it take people over or anything useful like that?
The Ghosts don't appear to be fully sentient, but its debatable. Most likely the ghosts are simply the codified memories and personality of that Princeps and not actually his soul floating arround in there. Although, assuming its possable to download the program of sentience, it is quite possable that he would be practically lucid.
The personality of a Titan doesn't appear to be fully formed when it gets built, its more like the Titan attains its personality over time(by stealing the programming of their Princep's brains)
They are described in Titanicus as beast which fits IMO.
They also seem to inherit scraps of the pilots memories which seems to help and/ore hinder the current pilot...
29120
Post by: NH Gunsmith
I wonder how a Tau would respond to the completely foreign inner thoughts of Humanity... I feel that that would give them nightmares for the rest of their days haha.
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Post by: purplefood
ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:I wonder what how a Tau would respond to the completely foreign inner thoughts of Humanity... I feel that that would give them nightmares for the rest of their days haha.
Like i said before, probably not well...
Though Tau have a wealth of restraint and willpower so he/she should be able to keep it together for a fair amount of time.
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Post by: NH Gunsmith
Ah, but could they hold it together under the stress of combat I wonder? It's almost wild how many if's and but's there are into just thinking about this.
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Post by: purplefood
ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:Ah, but could they hold it together under the stress of combat I wonder? It's almost wild how many if's and but's there are into just thinking about this.
Probably...
I mean even if they couldn't it's still a good story right?
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Post by: Rented Tritium
purplefood wrote:ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:Ah, but could they hold it together under the stress of combat I wonder? It's almost wild how many if's and but's there are into just thinking about this.
Probably...
I mean even if they couldn't it's still a good story right?
Exactly. They get the thing, they think it's going to be great. It works perfectly in field testing. Then as soon as the battle starts something is wrong and it goes berzerker.
I would buy that book.
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Post by: Jefffar
Rented Tritium wrote:So if they removed the MIU, replaced it with a bunch of drones and other tau tech, you've basically got a zombified titan. How fethed up is that, amirite? And the tau would have no idea they had done something like that. The machine spirit and the ghost would be haunting a tau junkyard somewhere.
So I'm curious about the ghost interacting, how much power does it have? Can it take people over or anything useful like that?
So I had this image of this abandoned MIU in a Tau scrapheap, sitting in line to be recycled, when strange things start to happen. First off, everybody seems to forget when the chunks turn in the furnace comes up. Then, as time goes on, pieces of metal move from where they were placed.
Finally after much time has passed, the MIU managed to pull the junk around it into a titan sized body and proceeds to stomp nearby T'kyo flat.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
Jefffar wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:So if they removed the MIU, replaced it with a bunch of drones and other tau tech, you've basically got a zombified titan. How fethed up is that, amirite? And the tau would have no idea they had done something like that. The machine spirit and the ghost would be haunting a tau junkyard somewhere.
So I'm curious about the ghost interacting, how much power does it have? Can it take people over or anything useful like that?
So I had this image of this abandoned MIU in a Tau scrapheap, sitting in line to be recycled, when strange things start to happen. First off, everybody seems to forget when the chunks turn in the furnace comes up. Then, as time goes on, pieces of metal move from where they were placed.
Finally after much time has passed, the MIU managed to pull the junk around it into a titan sized body and proceeds to stomp nearby T'kyo flat.
I love it. The parts would even be tau, you could see insignia on it and everything, but the overall shape and detail is that of a titan.
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Post by: Archonate
Kaldor wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:Says everyone who argues with other adults.
Are you five years old? When you debate things with someone, you are expected to actually back up your arguments. Saying to read a book without specifying a passage or page number is just as helpful as saying "go back to school". It's simply not a reasonable argument.
I can't believe I have to explain this to adults.
Firstly, this is the internet, and I don't give a crap if you listen to me or not. Thats your problem.
Secondly, you aren't presenting an argument that needs to be refuted, you simply have no idea what you're talking about. If you want to debate from a position of ignorance, thats your choice.
Providing sources for your claims has nothing to do with 'educating' people, it's to verify that you're not making stuff up on the spot. It's your prerogative to forgo doing that, but then it's our prerogative to say "this guy is making stuff up on the spot. If he knew what he was talking about, he'd provide sources." Then your credibility in future threads goes down the toilet.
Haven't you ever argued with a stubborn little kid? They blindly insist that they're right when they have nothing to base that on other than the desire to be right. It feels ridiculous even dignifying such exchanges with logical debate. You just roll your eyes and say "Okay whatever, kid." 
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Post by: Janthkin
<all this snarking about what constitutes an argument is a) off-topic; and b) not productive. If you can't talk to each other within the scope of the topic, then you don't need to talk to each other.>
Dakka has an excellent "Ignore" feature, too.
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Post by: purplefood
Jefffar wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:So if they removed the MIU, replaced it with a bunch of drones and other tau tech, you've basically got a zombified titan. How fethed up is that, amirite? And the tau would have no idea they had done something like that. The machine spirit and the ghost would be haunting a tau junkyard somewhere.
So I'm curious about the ghost interacting, how much power does it have? Can it take people over or anything useful like that?
So I had this image of this abandoned MIU in a Tau scrapheap, sitting in line to be recycled, when strange things start to happen. First off, everybody seems to forget when the chunks turn in the furnace comes up. Then, as time goes on, pieces of metal move from where they were placed.
Finally after much time has passed, the MIU managed to pull the junk around it into a titan sized body and proceeds to stomp nearby T'kyo flat.
It's like the Iron Giant!
Oh damn... it is the Iron Giant.
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Post by: KingDeath
One has to wonder if the Tau would even want to have something as stupid as impractical as a huge, bipedal walker. Of course, on the other hand they designed the Hammerhead ( yo dawg, let's put a huge gun on our IFV and call it a tank /o\ ) so practicality might not be a prime factor for them when it comes to designing military vehicles.
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Post by: homsikpanda
spireland wrote:This thread is reaching Star Trek vs Star Wars levels.
Besides, who cares,do what you want and let the fluff freaks brains explode.
this thought pleases me to no end
purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:purplefood wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:
Because some of us like to work our ideas into fluff. I hate this idea that you have to either be a completely 100% ridid fluff freak or you have to ignore fluff altogether. There's a fantastic range of hypothetical happenings that can fit within fluff if you aren't insane about it.
True but there are something which you have to compromise on...
A Tau super-heavy is easily feasible. But just getting a Warhound and saying the Tau stole it is lazy...
Frankly Tau could probably make some pretty cool super-heavies...
It's only lazy if you do it in a lazy way. That's the nature of writing.
True but there are easier and IMO better alternatives.
If you really want a Tau Warhound (as in they own it and it isn't just part of a joint strikeforce, though that is a great idea) it would take some working...
IMO it's simpler to go a different route...
my problem is my scratch built modeling skill is, at best, non-existant
ImperialFists2ndCompany wrote:I'd like to see a Tau Titan made to look like a very large crisis suit, although with heavier armour.
As for the tau making their own, while it wouldn't fit their style by default, one could construct a long drawn out war on a profoundly rocky planet that might necessitate walking tanks over hovertanks, but knowing the tau, I'm imagining something more like a 4 legged orca, but it's not outside of the reasonable that they'd at the very least prototype a big 2 legged walker to see if it's worth developing. Then, said prototype gets caught on the front and voila!
see previous not, also, my warhound has jet packs problem of mortka solved
also everybody is neglecting my previous suggestion/idea of, oh hey, the machine spirit/ai/whatever you want already cause it to asplode, thus it was found half buried in the earth in several peices and rebuilt using reverse engineering where possible and tau scratch built when nessisary... it looks like a warhound but it's entirely a tau fuction...
it also has jet packs coz i'm just cool like that! Automatically Appended Next Post: KingDeath wrote:One has to wonder if the Tau would even want to have something as stupid as impractical as a huge, bipedal walker. Of course, on the other hand they designed the Hammerhead ( yo dawg, let's put a huge gun on our IFV and call it a tank /o\ ) so practicality might not be a prime factor for them when it comes to designing military vehicles.
90% of their army is comprised of mechs which imp aren't scaled properly , i mean, comparatively how can a fire warrior fit in an xv8- battle suit? unless he's assuming the fetal position inside it, even then the controls would be difficult due to being so cramped, personally scale them up a tiny bit would be more practical, and fit better with the artwork, i mean in all the artwork i've seen the warriors only reach up to the suits knees/hips at best, which mean that a battle suit is 3-4 times bitter then a fire warrior, as opose to the 2x bigger portrayed by the models D:
anyway, i digress
why can't the tau have a warhound sized battle suit? take existing suit technology and scale it up to warhound size, no problem in that at all >.>; it's entirely possible, and i mean, why can't mortka or umm.. i forget the other one, be scaled up aswell, instead of fire warriors taking on space marines, it's titan suits taking on warhounds >.> same principle just up scaled
the biggest factors here are #1, my scratch built modelling powers (as previously mentioned ) and #2 i like the look of the warhound and wana practice my modifying by converting it into a more tauish design...
honestly this whole thread should be more of a "ways that the tau can make a warhound sized battle suit and why it would/wouldn't work"
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
homsikpanda wrote:
why can't the tau have a warhound sized battle suit? take existing suit technology and scale it up to warhound size, no problem in that at all >.>; it's entirely possible, and i mean, why can't mortka or umm.. i forget the other one, be scaled up aswell, instead of fire warriors taking on space marines, it's titan suits taking on warhounds >.> same principle just up scaled
Simply up-scaling something isn't that simple. Would a Tau version of a Titan be as effective as an Imperial, Eldar or Ork equivalent? It's highly unlikely. They're also going to be more difficult to move around (i.e. a large, vulnerable transport ship will have to land). The Tau haven't really designed for that kind of philosophy.
As for reassembling an Imperial Titan, again, they're not going to be able to make it as effective even if they get around the Machine Spirit. Further, should your personal background progress, you'd need to account for the wrath of the Mechanicus falling on you. The Tau are unlikely to see a single copy of a Titan worth a war with the Imperium.
Sure, you can do it. But it's not the sort of thing that will work out for the Tau.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:As for reassembling an Imperial Titan, again, they're not going to be able to make it as effective even if they get around the Machine Spirit. Further, should your personal background progress, you'd need to account for the wrath of the Mechanicus falling on you. The Tau are unlikely to see a single copy of a Titan worth a war with the Imperium.
Now you're tying the ability to field a unit to several layers deep political machinations. Just say the mechanicus doesn't know yet. Problem solved. If it was scavenged from parts of a titan listed as destroyed, they'd never have any idea until they faced it in battle later. Just say every time you fight with it is the first time it got used. The mechanicus' revenge is something happening at a later date which 40k never actually reaches.
Would the mechanicus eventually find out and come after them? Maybe. Would it be a bad idea to do it because of that possibility? Maybe. Would the tau leadership make a decision based on that information? Maybe.
But again, now you are knees deep in politics trying to counter-justify someone fielding a titan. That's kind of outrageous.
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Post by: homsikpanda
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:homsikpanda wrote:
why can't the tau have a warhound sized battle suit? take existing suit technology and scale it up to warhound size, no problem in that at all >.>; it's entirely possible, and i mean, why can't mortka or umm.. i forget the other one, be scaled up aswell, instead of fire warriors taking on space marines, it's titan suits taking on warhounds >.> same principle just up scaled
Simply up-scaling something isn't that simple. Would a Tau version of a Titan be as effective as an Imperial, Eldar or Ork equivalent? It's highly unlikely. They're also going to be more difficult to move around (i.e. a large, vulnerable transport ship will have to land). The Tau haven't really designed for that kind of philosophy.
As for reassembling an Imperial Titan, again, they're not going to be able to make it as effective even if they get around the Machine Spirit. Further, should your personal background progress, you'd need to account for the wrath of the Mechanicus falling on you. The Tau are unlikely to see a single copy of a Titan worth a war with the Imperium.
Sure, you can do it. But it's not the sort of thing that will work out for the Tau.
well they have the manta, it's a large, vulnerable transport ship that has to land, and i mean... it can take on titans no problem >.>;
plus why can't the tau upscale an xv80 crisis battle suit to the size of a titan? it'd be all the same technology just again, upsized... instead of having a broadside sized rail gun, it has a manta sized rail gun, instead of having a missile pod, it has a missile pod that shoots seeker missile sized missiles, etc etc etc
i mean, if the orks can cobble together a titan out of scrap metal, why can't the tau, who are the masters of mechs, design a really large mech? sure it doesn't entirely fit their style, they appear to prefer air-craft for battle titans, but you know, why not have a really large xv8- suit? they're coming out with new suit proto-types all the time (i.e. xv22 ) so...
they find scattered rermains of a titan, warhound, ork stompa, revreant etc etc use it's technology to make a tau titan of same size, and then use it on a small scale testing purposes (again i.e. xv22) until they feel it's been field tested enough and go full scale production and they start popping up more and more in apoc battles... it'd operate like a xv8- battle suit, so 12 inches in movement phase and 12 inches in assault phase even if it doesn't assault (it has a titan sized jetpack ) and has all the same equipment choices only scaled up like i previously explained.
it'd also not have shields unless taken from the equipment select, and it'd only have 1 shield per shield generator.
compare it like this, walkers v.s. xv80 battle suit
dreadnaught/deff dread/wraithlord v.s. xv8 crisis suit only if they were the size of titans...i.e. warhound = titansized dreadnaught, stompa = titan sized deff dread , etc etc
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Post by: Rented Tritium
If it really bothers you, you can give it 4 legs and a sturdier looking frame.
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Post by: agnosto
Rented Tritium wrote:If it really bothers you, you can give it 4 legs and a sturdier looking frame.
Something like this:
or this:
or this:
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Post by: homsikpanda
agnosto wrote:Rented Tritium wrote:If it really bothers you, you can give it 4 legs and a sturdier looking frame.
Something like this:
or this:
or this:
ick =/
i prefer 2 legged with a jet pack
and again, scratch building isn't my forte
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Post by: agnosto
homsikpanda wrote:
ick =/
i prefer 2 legged with a jet pack
and again, scratch building isn't my forte
Me either but it kind of opens up the imagination to accept that Tau might have something bigger than an XV88
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Post by: homsikpanda
agnosto wrote:homsikpanda wrote:
ick =/
i prefer 2 legged with a jet pack
and again, scratch building isn't my forte
Me either but it kind of opens up the imagination to accept that Tau might have something bigger than an XV88
way to kill the thread xD
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Post by: Jefffar
The Tau do have something bigger than an XV-88, the Xv-9
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Post by: BeRzErKeR
Rented Tritium wrote:If it really bothers you, you can give it 4 legs and a sturdier looking frame.
Did. . . did you just suggest a Tau AT- AT walker?
Yes!
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Post by: Juniperius
Just a thought, during the heresy titans have betrayed the Imperium for Chaos, it even happens these days.
Isn't it possible for a titan to be converted/convinced/mind-controllled (take applicable) to believe or actually be conviced of the greater good.
If the spirit is in fact based on the beliefs of the pilot it's even moreso true as the pilot could be convinced.
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Post by: Ovion
I'll get round to make a Tau Titan myself at some point - it'll be a prototype / unique solution to X threat.
Already have ideas, probably make it out of a Skyray box or two, get a few of extra hammerhead weapon sprues, a pirahna kit for the central 'core' and a bunch of card / sprue.
Create a sort of Mad Cat II type assault mech, prolly Pirahna or hammerhead chasis cut down for the body, bipedal with 2 Railguns ( HH ones, so ordnance shot too), or Ion Cannons, and a Missile Pod Bank ( 4-8 Missile pods for 8-16 shots of LRM goodness ) with a pair of burst cannons or flamers.
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Post by: SomeRandomEvilGuy
Rented Tritium wrote:
Now you're tying the ability to field a unit to several layers deep political machinations. Just say the mechanicus doesn't know yet. Problem solved. If it was scavenged from parts of a titan listed as destroyed, they'd never have any idea until they faced it in battle later. Just say every time you fight with it is the first time it got used. The mechanicus' revenge is something happening at a later date which 40k never actually reaches.
Fair enough, although that was only one part of my post. But whatever, yes it is possible, but it won't be similar to a Warhound Titan. That doesn't really work.
homsikpanda wrote:well they have the manta, it's a large, vulnerable transport ship that has to land, and i mean... it can take on titans no problem >.>;
Okay. That's not a Titan though. More akin to a Thunderhawk, say (wihch also have Titan-scale weaponry).
plus why can't the tau upscale an xv80 crisis battle suit to the size of a titan? it'd be all the same technology just again, upsized... instead of having a broadside sized rail gun, it has a manta sized rail gun, instead of having a missile pod, it has a missile pod that shoots seeker missile sized missiles, etc etc etc
Because that's not how physics works. You can't just make something several times the size and expect it to work the same way. It's why you can't just build a supertank that's impervious to all enemy fire. It doesn't work that way. The materials have limits. The Tau scientists will also have limits.
(it has a titan sized jetpack )
That strikes me as a little absurd. Might as well have Eldar or Imperial Titans capable of teleporting (after all, the Orks can do it, so why can't they?) I think Dreadknights can teleport, but they're far smaller and use some of the greatest technology known to Man.
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Post by: DarthSpader
generally since titans only play in apoc.... and apoc allows you to field whatever you want from any models in your collection, regardless of army, i see no problem with a warhound fighting beside a tau army. you could even justify it as it belonged to an annexed world, and its imperial princeps have agreed to use it in a battle to support the tau. whatever.
for making a "tau" titan.... i would almost suggest the eldar revenant would be a closer fit to the tau style of warfare. its quick, has decent firepower, agile, and pretty much a nice slender model. no clue how you would modify it to tau specs, (making it look like a big crisis suit) but i would look in that general area for a custom tau titan.
my friend is working on one, he is kitbashing a ton of smaller tau vehicles and plasticard to make one. it will be warhound class, and act simaler to the revenant, in that it has 2 weapons on its arms (primary weapons) and a few smaller shoulder weapons.
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Post by: DarbNilbirts
Okay. That's not a Titan though. More akin to a Thunderhawk, say (wihch also have Titan-scale weaponry).
The manta would probably be better compared to the warhound then the thunderhawk in terms of power. Its far larger then a T-hawk with 2-3 times the transport. In the damascus gulf crusade the mantas are described hovering behind the front lines trading fire with warhounds on an equal footing, providing support to the troops they just unloaded. The manta fills the role of titans for the tau while still keeping their mobile warfare mentality.
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Post by: panoramat
Hi Guys
Here is my latest creation of a tau titan, hope you like it!
regards
Mark
4
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Post by: Coolyo294
The body and legs are excellent, but the feet look somewhat out of place.
46864
Post by: Deadshot
Looks amazing and not.too bad.for tabletop usage.
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Post by: Jefffar
I like the way the ion cannons got worked in there.
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Post by: Deadshot
What's its designation and XV numbers? I sugfest an XV upwards of 120 as it is far above broadsides at XV-88
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Post by: Cyrax
Looks like a mechwarrior chicken. 
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Post by: Ovion
Deadshot wrote:What's its designation and XV numbers? I sugfest an XV upwards of 120 as it is far above broadsides at XV-88
I'd assume it'd be an XV-78, or maybe XV-75... though I'm unsure XV is applicable, maybe XX-78.
(Going by the designations available )
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Post by: Deadshot
Why 78? I thoughtl better stuff had higher numbers.
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Post by: Ovion
It's mass class, what it's meant to take down and the weapons it carries that determine what its number is.
The Hammerhead w/ Railgun is a TX-78 for example.
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Post by: blood reaper
Why?
The Titan's design and use doesn't really fit into the ways of war of the Tau, while they do use walkers, they are advanced and designed as Support/Fire base units. A titan is designed for siege, full on warfare and it requires a trained crew to operate it. I doubt any Tau drone could properly handle the task of using the Titan, and the Machine Spirit would probably destroy the titan so the Xeno's could not use it. In all honestly, the Tau's technology suits them better, and their human helpers are effectively cannon fodder.
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Post by: panoramat
Hi Guys
thanks for the feedback
I have only just got into warhammer 40k and find it a fantastic hobby genre, my typical wargaming is on the modernwarfare era. this just takes it to another level.
I haven't picked a name for the model and hoped some one would do me the pleasure.
I like the tau but some how found there was something missing to have a lot of fun with, so I decided on the walker, made from all kinds of bits n bobs from my model spare parts box. the fun starts when this thing wanders around citys accidently squashing enemies (and any innocent bystanders....oops) its also good for giving the ork stompas a good kicking.
so.............can someone please give it a name... and we shall pick the best one from the selection
thanks again
Mark
i fitted gas tanks although they could be flamers! to the front of the body to take out vehicle crews etc without firing off a round (using the same tactics as ww1 trench warfare)
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Post by: Psienesis
They're semi-sentient, but not politically-affiliated. What the Tau lack is the psychic potential for a Princeps to pilot it. This could be resolved by having an Imperial Titan crew join the Greater Good... somewhat stretching the bounds of credulity, but whatever.
The model looks good, though.
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Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde
After just a glance through this threat, I love people saying "this is an aweful idea" and "it's inconceivable".
How is it?
The Tau take many human worlds under its wing as human auxiliaries, so along with them would go any tech they had under their possetion. A Warhound may be one of them, any titan bigger than that I fear would be a step too far. But other than that I'm up for seeing something in action. :Thumbsup:
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Post by: Psienesis
Well, because no Imperial World turns over without a fight. Just like Commissars, Princeps are some of the most loyal Imperial servants, supporting both the Imperium and the Mechanicus. The odds of them siding with a rebellious faction (and not, themselves, being Chaos-worshiping sleeper agents or something) is... pretty slim, by the fluff.
It would almost require the Princeps to die during the change-over, before he can fire up the Titan, in order for it to be successful, since no one else can drive it. Without a Princeps, though, the Titan becomes a giant, immobile gun platform and bomb-magnet.
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Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde
Slim, but not impossible. Imperial worlds that have never been retaken back into the imperial fold during the Great Crusade, could have in all likelihood Joined with the Tau for protection out of free will. Not everyone wants to be part of the Imperium, as it is Oppressive. Considering there is fluff that states before the great crusade Tech Adepts went far and wide bringing with them the information to build "Knights", it isn't that far of a stretch for them to take Warhound info with them as well. And as a lot of the worlds with Knight Tech fought the imperium when trying to bring them back to Imperial truth, it just isn't that much of a leap.
Fluff, a lot of the time is what you make, it. This game is ever-evolving, and fluff-nazi's need to start being more flexible.
But then again thats my two cents and I expect as standard for someone to shoot me down in flames
Automatically Appended Next Post:
panoramat wrote:Hi Guys
Here is my latest creation of a tau titan, hope you like it!
regards
Mark
Reminds me of metal gear Rex
43229
Post by: Ovion
My excuse for the tau superheavies I'm working on are
A: Ship-to-ship battlesuits.
(such as the Aestevalis in Martian Successor Nadesico, basically larger battlesuits for taking out ships in space)
B: Prototype(s).
(Trying things out, it may or may not work for production, but you can try it once can't you?)
C: A specific need.
(i.e. - entrenched sieged warriors and earth caste, lots of wrecked suits / tanks / whatever, can't get out of where ever it is, need a heavy weapons solution)
ALSO - There's nothing that says a princeps can't turn. I mean, you wouldn't have chaos titans if it were impossible.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
I guess you could say that the reason why the tau would need a heavy walker is just in case the planetary conditions are not suitable for their more preferred craft. Such as strong winds that knock their hammerheads away, or something like that.
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Post by: purplefood
Ovion wrote:My excuse for the tau superheavies I'm working on are
A: Ship-to-ship battlesuits.
(such as the Aestevalis in Martian Successor Nadesico, basically larger battlesuits for taking out ships in space)
B: Prototype(s).
(Trying things out, it may or may not work for production, but you can try it once can't you?)
C: A specific need.
(i.e. - entrenched sieged warriors and earth caste, lots of wrecked suits / tanks / whatever, can't get out of where ever it is, need a heavy weapons solution)
ALSO - There's nothing that says a princeps can't turn. I mean, you wouldn't have chaos titans if it were impossible.
Princeps turn to chaos through a far more insidious process...
A princeps turning to the Tau would be far less believable IMO...
Not impossible just not all that likely...
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Post by: Jefffar
Or how about we just insert the story for the cool model that make us feel best about it.
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Post by: agnosto
It's funny that people can believe a faction is capable of warp travel (to a lesser extent than IoM granted) but is unable to program a big robot to walk and fire its guns.
One person to pilot, one person to fire the guns...done. If it can happen in other sci-fi universes (battletech) it can happen in 40k.
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Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde
agnosto wrote:It's funny that people can believe a faction is capable of warp travel (to a lesser extent than IoM granted) but is unable to program a big robot to walk and fire its guns.
One person to pilot, one person to fire the guns...done. If it can happen in other sci-fi universes (battletech) it can happen in 40k.
My thoughts exactly... But fluff-nazi's don't like it when people try to introduce things that aren't canon.
My thoughts for a Tau walker are reminiscent of Zone of the Enders. <3 that game !!!
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Post by: Psienesis
Yeah, because this is Warhammer: 40,000, not Star Wars, Star Trek, Battletech, Big Eyes Small Mouth, Toon!, Rifts, Cyberpunk or Dungeons & Dragons.
Certain things work in these other games because that's how things work in those games. In 40K, there's a fundamental way that certain things are understood to work. Bolters fire a mass-reactive, explosive, armor-piercing shell. Titans are controlled by a directly-linked psychic pilot. Worshiping the Chaos Gods causes mutations. Commissars and Inquisitors, as a rule, have their sense of humor surgically removed upon attaining the rank. Space Marines are big, and male.
It's how the setting is written.
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Post by: agnosto
Psienesis wrote:
It's how the setting is written.
So every time GW changes what's written, the world ends? I've been playing the game for about 18 years and they've changed the back-story more than I have fingers and toes. There's so little written about Tau that they could come out with a book tomorrow that includes giant Tau battlesuits the size of Titans.
One thing that has been repeatedly written about Tau in fluff is their ability to change their tactics as situations demand and their sheer adaptability that helps a small fish in a big pond (no pun intended) survive.
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Post by: Psienesis
Sort of. If GW changes the background info, then that's GW's perogative, they own the property. If they want to say that the Tyranids suddenly grew less-mindless, began to question their actions, and then suddenly felt really, really bad about devouring twelve-plus galaxies and now really just want to sit down, take stock of their lives, and maybe open a kitten rescue service, well, then, "Bugs Save Kitten, pict-cast at 11".
Giant Tau-built Titans would be fine. That's obvious Tau-tech, developed by the Tau, to fill whatever role the Tau felt they needed to fill with a Titan. More power to 'em.
That's nothing like having the Tau "convert" an Imperial Titan, piloted by a Princeps, into some sort of weird hybrid Tau-Imperial God-Machine. Based on what we know of the Tau, and the Imperium, it's... well, not impossible, just very, very, very, exceedingly, extremely unlikely.
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Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde
Actually each edition of the game doesn't rewrite its history, It ADDS to it.
43229
Post by: Ovion
Thats pretty much what warhammer is though isn't it -
'Tales of the extemely unlikely'
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Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde
Ovion wrote:Thats pretty much what warhammer is though isn't it -
'Tales of the extemely unlikely'
Pretty much, thats why Sci-Fi exists... escapism into the completely improbable
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Post by: Psienesis
From the perspective of someone in the real world, sure, but any good fiction is self-supporting. Things make sense within its own universe... or are supposed to, at any rate.
This is why Buffy does not suddenly stake Edward in Twilight, because there is no Buffy the Vampire Slayer in Twilight.
Harry Potter wasn't branded a sorcerer and blinded with his tongue cut out because the Qunari don't live in the Harry Potter world. Nor were he and his friends risking daemonic possession every time they cast a spell, because that's not how magic functions in the Harry Potter world. Nor did Hermione attempt to Still him, because he's a channeling male, because it's Hogwarts, not the White Tower.
Within the setting of 40K, we're provided (in many cases,not all) how things work and how they function, whether it's Imperial, Tau, Eldar, or Tyranid or whatever. One of the things we do know is how Imperial Titans function (generally speaking), how a Princeps is linked into it, via cables and psychic links, and how he is an integral part of operating the god-machine. So, like I said, it's unlikely that a Princeps would join the cause of the Tau, but not impossible (such as the idea of Chaos-corrupted Grey Knights.... that *is* impossible within the "canon").
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Post by: agnosto
I think it was mentioned before but what's to stop the Tau from just ripping out the machine spirit and plugging in an advanced form of drone control? If they have drone intelligence that can help pilot starships through the warp, I think they can handle a giant robot.
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Post by: Grey Templar
The Machine Spirit would sense the intrusion and initiate Self-destruction before they could finish.
And the Tau simply wouldn't have a desire to retro-fit an Imperial Titan. Why would they when they could just built their own with their own technology.
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Post by: agnosto
Grey Templar wrote:The Machine Spirit would sense the intrusion and initiate Self-destruction before they could finish.
And the Tau simply wouldn't have a desire to retro-fit an Imperial Titan. Why would they when they could just built their own with their own technology.
Very valid point, though I'm sure they could bypass the self-destruct somehow. For argument's sake let's say they do it as a proof of concept, digital warfare to hack Titans in the field and turn them against their owners; some sort of viral programming. Wouldn't that cause Mars some fits...
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Post by: Psienesis
The Machine Spirit is generally a totality of the systems that operate a given machine, rather than a specific component. Think of it as a semi-AI caused by the cloud of systems in the item in question.
If the Tau managed to remove the Machine-Spirit... well, let's assume that they are able to replace whatever systems they remove that creates the Machine-Spirit.... and then hook a drone up to the Princeps' socket, and the Drone figures out how to run all of the sensory input systems that Titans normally have (the Princeps feels what the Titan does) and they have a bunch of Earth and Fire Caste guys that eventually figure out how to do all the stuff that the other crew of a Titan need to do, or build drones that can figure it out.... then, yeah, they can probably get one running.
The next problem for the Tau comes up after the first or second battle: reloading the guns. The Tau don't make mega-bolters or volcano cannons. This is Imperial tech they've probably never seen, and never had to even attempt to figure out. So they're going to either need to scale up some guns to mount on this thing (or give it really stubby arms) or need to figure out how to create the ammo and then reload the thing.
It seems to me that, in the end, it would be more trouble than its worth to the Tau.
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Post by: agnosto
Yeah, that's completely logical.
Mmm giant robot with heavy railguns....
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Post by: Deadshot
The Mega Bolters yes. But other non ammunition based weapons such as Volcano Cannons ( or Turbo Lasers Destructors in this case) or Plasma Blastguns, would just require a big battery so to speak. It may not have quite the same effect but it would.perform the needs required.
They could even replace.the weapons as have been mentions. Think a big ass Burst Cannon in place of a VMB.
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Post by: panoramat
well guys, it looks like you all have your own opinions about the tau, but if you look at it like this.................a tau warhound!........ 40k sentinals are operated by 1 pilot, ripley from aliens and the power loader, starwars scout walker, etc..........i like to think there would be an experienced pilot to be incharge of his vehicle and crew. (or may be not in the case of orks and gretchens etc)
also to make a game more interesing and fair, the enemy could capture it and cause some meyhem on the tau....this gives both players some fun!
you can click the youtube link below to get a better look at the Tau Warhound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev_RWeQ2fdY
thanks
Mark
Automatically Appended Next Post: well guys, it looks like you all have your own opinions about the tau, but if you look at it like this.................a tau warhound!........ 40k sentinals are operated by 1 pilot, ripley from aliens and the power loader, starwars scout walker, etc..........i like to think there would be an experienced pilot to be incharge of his vehicle and crew. (or may be not in the case of orks and gretchens etc)
also to make a game more interesing and fair, the enemy could capture it and cause some meyhem on the tau....this gives both players some fun!
you can click the youtube link below to get a better look at the Tau Warhound
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev_RWeQ2fdY
thanks
Mark
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Post by: Ovion
Psienesis wrote:From the perspective of someone in the real world, sure, but any good fiction is self-supporting. Things make sense within its own universe... or are supposed to, at any rate.
This is why Buffy does not suddenly stake Edward in Twilight, because there is no Buffy the Vampire Slayer in Twilight.
Harry Potter wasn't branded a sorcerer and blinded with his tongue cut out because the Qunari don't live in the Harry Potter world. Nor were he and his friends risking daemonic possession every time they cast a spell, because that's not how magic functions in the Harry Potter world. Nor did Hermione attempt to Still him, because he's a channeling male, because it's Hogwarts, not the White Tower.
Within the setting of 40K, we're provided (in many cases,not all) how things work and how they function, whether it's Imperial, Tau, Eldar, or Tyranid or whatever. One of the things we do know is how Imperial Titans function (generally speaking), how a Princeps is linked into it, via cables and psychic links, and how he is an integral part of operating the god-machine. So, like I said, it's unlikely that a Princeps would join the cause of the Tau, but not impossible (such as the idea of Chaos-corrupted Grey Knights.... that *is* impossible within the "canon").
The references about different worlds joining make little sense.
And a Titans Princeps and crew turning to chaos, or just decide the Tau Empire isn't impossible, just very improbable.
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Post by: Kanluwen
agnosto wrote:Grey Templar wrote:The Machine Spirit would sense the intrusion and initiate Self-destruction before they could finish.
And the Tau simply wouldn't have a desire to retro-fit an Imperial Titan. Why would they when they could just built their own with their own technology.
Very valid point, though I'm sure they could bypass the self-destruct somehow. For argument's sake let's say they do it as a proof of concept, digital warfare to hack Titans in the field and turn them against their owners; some sort of viral programming. Wouldn't that cause Mars some fits...
Digital warfare against a Titan's machine spirit is like hacking into a squirrel.
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Post by: Tarkand
Well, I'm late to the party but...
I don't quite see how Tau would have any problem building a Warhound analogue by themselves.
They already have Battle Suit, which for all intent and purpose, are miniature titans. How much more difficult would it be for them to build a 30 feet tall broadside?
They obviously have a much better understanding of AI then the IoM, so they would either have a better AI in it (so it's actually a remote thing) or none at all. For all the talk of the titan's machine spirit, I have yet to see a novel/book/piece of fluff that shows us what's so good about the Titan's powerful IA - all it ever seems to do is fight against the princept and be an all around nuisance... yes, it does add some personality to the warmachine since it's basically haunted... but from a purely pragmatic point of view, the machine spirit of the titan is a drawback, a flaw, not a boon.
It wouldn't be a Warhound no... but it could easily use the same rule to simulate it.
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Post by: agnosto
Kanluwen wrote:
Digital warfare against a Titan's machine spirit is like hacking into a squirrel.
Which can be done now so I imagine they can do it 40000 years in the future...
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Post by: Ovion
Tarkand wrote:Well, I'm late to the party but...
I don't quite see how Tau would have any problem building a Warhound analogue by themselves.
They already have Battle Suit, which for all intent and purpose, are miniature titans. How much more difficult would it be for them to build a 30 feet tall broadside?
They obviously have a much better understanding of AI then the IoM, so they would either have a better AI in it (so it's actually a remote thing) or none at all. For all the talk of the titan's machine spirit, I have yet to see a novel/book/piece of fluff that shows us what's so good about the Titan's powerful IA - all it ever seems to do is fight against the princept and be an all around nuisance... yes, it does add some personality to the warmachine since it's basically haunted... but from a purely pragmatic point of view, the machine spirit of the titan is a drawback, a flaw, not a boon.
It wouldn't be a Warhound no... but it could easily use the same rule to simulate it.
Technically easier than power armour or a battlesuit.
The only issue we really have now is power generation + computing power (some material / cost issues) which the Tau wouldn't have.
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Post by: Tarkand
Ovion wrote:Tarkand wrote:Well, I'm late to the party but...
I don't quite see how Tau would have any problem building a Warhound analogue by themselves.
They already have Battle Suit, which for all intent and purpose, are miniature titans. How much more difficult would it be for them to build a 30 feet tall broadside?
They obviously have a much better understanding of AI then the IoM, so they would either have a better AI in it (so it's actually a remote thing) or none at all. For all the talk of the titan's machine spirit, I have yet to see a novel/book/piece of fluff that shows us what's so good about the Titan's powerful IA - all it ever seems to do is fight against the princept and be an all around nuisance... yes, it does add some personality to the warmachine since it's basically haunted... but from a purely pragmatic point of view, the machine spirit of the titan is a drawback, a flaw, not a boon.
It wouldn't be a Warhound no... but it could easily use the same rule to simulate it.
Technically easier than power armour or a battlesuit.
The only issue we really have now is power generation + computing power (some material / cost issues) which the Tau wouldn't have.
Based on what assumption?
For all intent and purpose, Drones are more advanced IA than what the IoM can do.
People make a big deal of how that one Land Raider went on by itself and killed a lot of ork during the siege of Rynn's World... but fail to realize that even the lowliest Tau drone do the same during every conflict. The Rynn World Land Raider was a wonder, an exception, it was ancient and it's machine spirit was supposed to be wiser and stronger than other on account of that... Not every Land Raider can do this. Autonomous action from an IoM IA is a big deal... but it's the standard for Tau.
Drones are cheap, unexpensive units... and they do the same stuff the exceptional IoM IA do! The logical conclusion here is that the IoM has nothing on Tau when it comes to computing/AI... not the other way around.
Has for power generation? The Tau can produce enough power generation to get truly epicly sized air craft airborn and flying at incredible speed. I'd wager the power needed to keep a Tau Manta functioning dwarf what's needed to get a warhound functioning.
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Post by: Ovion
I meant the Tau wouldn't have the issues with computing power and power gen that we do.
The problems WE HAVE that they WOULDN'T
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Post by: Tarkand
As in modern humans? Yeah, we'd have those problems.
There's also the fact that in the real world, where the rule of cool don't apply, Titans are just not effective design for a warmachine. They are tall where we try to make our tanks as close to the ground as possible to make for harder target. They are massive and make easy target for air strike, where modern tanks try to be compact to avoid the same problem... and then there's the issue having millions of tons resting on two small 'feet', meaning the Titans would most likely sink through most terrain (tanks are square-ish to better distribute their weight).
Aside for the rule of cool and the game rules (Walker don't react the same way to assault as vehicle do), there is no reason to design a weapon platform that stands on two legs when you have Anti-Grav/Skimmer technology available... and the Tau do.
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Post by: Grey Templar
We don't have walkers because we can't figure out how to make the machine balance itself.
Walking tanks would be a major advantage in our modern conflicts as they would be better at navigating rough terrain then a tank could.
The massive profile is mitigated by the super advanced armor platings and void shields. Walking vehicles would be tougher to get a fix on because of the way they move. a tank has fairly predictable movements and some major limitations, a walking vehicle would not have those.
Titans are designed for frontal assaults and all out battles, something which warfare on Earth hasn't been since WW2. There really hasn't been a proper knock down drag em out war since that time. All conflicts have been relativly small, overhyped, skirmishes. All warfare since that time has become small time skirmishes between forces that last short periods before one side withdraws.
There is no such thing as guerilla warfare in the 41st millenium, at least not how we know it. If the Imperium is getting hit by skirmishers they simply obliterate every living thing in the area, problem solved.
So Titans may seem stupid compared to the current conflicts but if you are talking about a proper full scale war then they become practical.
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Post by: Tarkand
Grey Templar wrote:We don't have walkers because we can't figure out how to make the machine balance itself.
Walking tanks would be a major advantage in our modern conflicts as they would be better at navigating rough terrain then a tank could.
The massive profile is mitigated by the super advanced armor platings and void shields. Walking vehicles would be tougher to get a fix on because of the way they move. a tank has fairly predictable movements and some major limitations, a walking vehicle would not have those.
Titans are designed for frontal assaults and all out battles, something which warfare on Earth hasn't been since WW2. There really hasn't been a proper knock down drag em out war since that time. All conflicts have been relativly small, overhyped, skirmishes. All warfare since that time has become small time skirmishes between forces that last short periods before one side withdraws.
There is no such thing as guerilla warfare in the 41st millenium, at least not how we know it. If the Imperium is getting hit by skirmishers they simply obliterate every living thing in the area, problem solved.
So Titans may seem stupid compared to the current conflicts but if you are talking about a proper full scale war then they become practical.
Careful there, I never said Walkers would be bad, I said Titans would.
There's a huge difference between something like a sentinel (which could actually be quite useful in modern war theatre) and a 50 feet tall, 200 tons Warhound...
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Post by: Grey Templar
If we could get something like Void Shields then I think a 50ft tall walking machine of doom would be viable. Height would give it a LoS advantage.
And when you think about it, 50ft isn't all that tall. You can still hide fairly well in the fold of the landscape and trees would still hide you.
True, you are vulnerable to aircraft but, then again, so are tanks.
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Post by: Luide
Grey Templar wrote:If we could get something like Void Shields then I think a 50ft tall walking machine of doom would be viable. Height would give it a LoS advantage.
And when you think about it, 50ft isn't all that tall. You can still hide fairly well in the fold of the landscape and trees would still hide you.
True, you are vulnerable to aircraft but, then again, so are tanks.
Large height giving you LOS (and thus giving LOS to you) isn't advantage, it's massive disadvantage in real world. There's a reason all military vehicles have very low profile.
Large two-legged walkers just aren't "realistic" (as in internally consistent) because pretty much every thing you can think of that would make them usable, makes superheavy tanks just plain better.
Problems with the armoring the very large frontal surface area, unable to slope it to maximise armor effectiviness, losing single leg making you fall, other balance issues in difficult terrain etc. Walkers do have some advantages, but most of them only apply to multi-legged ones.
Tl;dr:
When playing Mechwarrior or 40k, just take for granted that "Large two-legged walkers are superior to conventional vehicles". There aren't any good (as in internally consistent) reasons why this is true, but thinking about it will just make your head hurt.
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Post by: Jefffar
Grey Templar wrote:If we could get something like Void Shields then I think a 50ft tall walking machine of doom would be viable. Height would give it a LoS advantage.
And when you think about it, 50ft isn't all that tall. You can still hide fairly well in the fold of the landscape and trees would still hide you.
True, you are vulnerable to aircraft but, then again, so are tanks.
Yea, but you could put those void shields into a tank which would have an easier time of hiding behind terrain due to it's lower profile.
Or in the Tau's case you could put it into a hover tank which could drop down low behind terrain when necessary but lift itself above the terrain as required.
In short, Tau technology as it is, makes titans redundant so the idea of the Tau investing major coin in design, development and production is somewhat flawed.
On the other hand, there are a lot of story based reasons that a handful of Titan class walkers or walkers with Hammerhead level armour and armament might show up in a limited manner.
The real world is full of tales of oddball military technologies that made it to the battlefield when they really shouldn't have.
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Post by: Deadshot
If the battle cannon is equal to a modern tank shot, then trying.to smash in even a Warhound is no small feat.
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Post by: Rimmy
Personally, I would MUCH rather see a large battlesuit style titan from the Tau instead of a warhound they scavenged.
Orks? totally. loot that gak.
Tau? its almost beneath them to try and make that happen.
being that walkers aren't exactly their style either (sans battlesuits) I'd imagine this type of weapon from them would be more akin to a skimmer. but not always.
mmm a comperable knight class titan battlesuit would be pretty epic!
MAN I wish I had more time to make stuff!
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Post by: Jefffar
I've thought that the Broadside scaled up to being a true walker, would make sense for the Tau.
Would also get rid of pesky need to stay still to shoot.
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Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde
Jefffar wrote:I've thought that the Broadside scaled up to being a true walker, would make sense for the Tau.
Would also get rid of pesky need to stay still to shoot.
I had the same thought, kinda like Metal Gear Rex + Zone of the Enders = Tau Titan ^_^
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Post by: Jefffar
Not even that big. Something more like a legged Hammerhead for scale and capability, but with the armament of a Broadside.
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Post by: Rimmy
so its an AT- ST is what you're saying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
has anyone else seen this?
kinda sums it all up huh.
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Post by: Deadshot
Rimmy wrote:so its an AT-ST is what you're saying
AT ST was the one that looks like a Sentinal. AT AT is what you mean I believe.
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Post by: Jefffar
More super Broadside than AT- ST or AT- AT.
Somewhere between this
and this
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Post by: AnUnearthlyChilde
It will always be this to me:
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Post by: Deadshot
The first pic would be a Tau Reaver in my opinion. The second.could be a Warlord for Tau.
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Post by: Rimmy
Deadshot wrote:Rimmy wrote:so its an AT-ST is what you're saying
AT ST was the one that looks like a Sentinal. AT AT is what you mean I believe.
actually no I was WAY off. thanks for the correction. I meant AT- PE
this one:
although I still really think the Tau would use a flier or a heavy skimmer. but that's just my $.02.
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Post by: Deadshot
Close. AT TE
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Post by: Rimmy
Deadshot wrote:Close. AT TE
yea that
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Post by: Jefffar
This would be an interesting template for a Tau Titan
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Post by: Deadshot
What is it?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind, I can see it now.
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Post by: Devian
homsikpanda wrote:(*i'm renaming it to something fishy to fit with the traditional tau naming, as soon as a i figure out a cool fish name for a giant prehistoric killing machine )
MEGALODON!
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