A 280 point beast like that should be EW in my opinion.

Synapse should be EW in general.

chrisrawr wrote:Synapse should be EW in general.

Ya, thats what we need again, 12 wounds at toughness 6, str 10 in cc and loads of shooty, armour 3+ that cannot be ID'd.... no thanks. At best, it should make them lose an extra wound from ID attacks, so wounds that would cause ID would cause 2 wounds instead. Eternal warrior tyranid warrior broods, harpy broods, and hive guard broods would be stupid in the other direction

Actually, warriors and HG are fine with EW. Try a couple games with it before you rat at it.

chrisrawr wrote:Actually, warriors and HG are fine with EW. Try a couple games with it before you rat at it.

I have. It's horrendously awesome. Like too good to be true awesome.

Scything dual bonesword shrikes are amazing with EW.

Why are you taking dual bones D: Lashbone is bestbone 4srs.

i would be the happiest person on earth if swarmlord had EW, i think it only makes sense, hes 280 points....280...sure, he has WS9 and W5 and A4, plus bonesabres, but....mindshackle scarabs or force weapons or any lotsashots AP3, hes toast...besides, he is slow as hell without fleet, so either fleet or EW would make me very super happy

Fleet? Hmmm let me think.... NO! Then he will get the charge and we are all

DreadlordME! wrote:Fleet? Hmmm let me think.... NO! Then he will get the charge and we are all

Haha, says the guy running a Purifier spam army

YES! Wait... WHAT IS WRONG WITH MY GK!? YOU GK HATERS!

I agree that the Swarmlord being who he is should have EW


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fleet would work to

But what's the point of EW on the Swarmlord? Isn't it T6? So i can instakill him with... Force weapons (Shadow in the Warp makes it pretty rough), some DE gubbinz' (they wil poisonshot it to death anyways...) and with Sicarius' Strike of Awesomeness (oh yeah, that guy is soooo scary ...). Isn't the problem with the Swarmlord is that people can krakmissile/lascannon/melta/plasma it to death without problem?

He is the equivilent to Nid Draigo, Grimnar or Abbadon. But costs 5pts more, has no 3++ or 4++, no. 2+ armour, no deep strike. Sure, tougher and stronger with more wounds, but that won't matter with every AP3 weapon being force fed to him.

To be perfectly honest, I'd rather the Swarmlord didn't have EW.

However, I'd rather no special characters had EW.

I think it's a lazy rule, put in purely to lend an unnecessary level of 'awsome' to each designer's favourite SC.

Sorry, but no amount of prestiege or experience on the battlefield should allow you to withstand a direct hit from a siege weapon.

vipoid wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'd rather the Swarmlord didn't have EW.

However, I'd rather no special characters had EW.

I think it's a lazy rule, put in purely to lend an unnecessary level of 'awsome' to each designer's favourite SC.

Sorry, but no amount of prestiege or experience on the battlefield should allow you to withstand a direct hit from a siege weapon.

...Ghazzy?

Anyway, OT.

Yeah, and DRAIGO should sooo have EW.

guys, swarmloed is fine without EW he does have guard to protect him his brood 480 but thats 11 T6 wounds and can get a normal cover save the swarmlord is pricy but hes fine like he is, maybe lower his cost a bit

vipoid wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'd rather the Swarmlord didn't have EW.

However, I'd rather no special characters had EW.

I think it's a lazy rule, put in purely to lend an unnecessary level of 'awsome' to each designer's favourite SC.

Sorry, but no amount of prestiege or experience on the battlefield should allow you to withstand a direct hit from a siege weapon.

I don't think EW is an "experience" thing, more of a "I'm about 20 feet tall and punch buildings on a daily basis" sort of thing. EW doesn't denote experience, but rather an extraordinary toughness due to size or something else. For instance, I've created three Necron characters, and only one has EW. Why? Because his whole shtick is being able to get back up no matter what put him down. I think the people who make their characters with EW don't consider the ramifications of actually having EW until they've played a game where ID/EW came into play.

When a character has EW, whether homebrew or GW official, it needs to be paid for in points, and fully justified in a logical way by the fluff.

That was sort of ranty, but anyway, I think having EW simply makes a character/monster more menacing, and can add a lot to the character of the character, if you know what I mean. I don't think that anything in the new Necron codex has EW, come to think of it.

Does he get to re roll anything with those 2 pairs of saber?

He forces enemies to reroll invulnerables and inflicts ID.

Ahh i fought against it before and wasnt too impressed by it, ID or not his 4 hits mostly lands 2 ish.

At WS 9 and they ability to give himself Preferred Enemy?

broodstar wrote:guys, swarmloed is fine without EW he does have guard to protect him his brood 480 but thats 11 T6 wounds and can get a normal cover save the swarmlord is pricy but hes fine like he is, maybe lower his cost a bit

11 T6 wounds that's really only 4 against force weapons. Sounds good to me!

He's (mostly) fine surviving incoming fire. In CC his 4++ helps some - but it's CC only. For 475 points (almost 600 if you add a prime for some WA shens) that'd better be a REALLY effective deathstar instead of "man... that's kinda scary... I'll run away from it"

McNinja wrote:I don't think EW is an "experience" thing, more of a "I'm about 20 feet tall and punch buildings on a daily basis" sort of thing. EW doesn't denote experience, but rather an extraordinary toughness due to size or something else.

But that's the thing - most of the models that have EW are basically no different from regular commanders, who don't have EW. Take Lysander. He's basically a SM Terminator Captain. However, unlike every other terminator captain, he can simply shrug off 3 siege shells to the face.

Now, I accept that some people/creature SCs may be heavily augmented beyond what is 'normal' for their race. However, this can usually be done with increases to toughness, rather than EW.

McNinja wrote:For instance, I've created three Necron characters, and only one has EW. Why? Because his whole shtick is being able to get back up no matter what put him down.

Don't Necron Overlords essentially have EW anyway?

McNinja wrote: I think the people who make their characters with EW don't consider the ramifications of actually having EW until they've played a game where ID/EW came into play.

To be honest, I think the same is true of many codex writers. You might say that it's added into a model's cost but, IMO, they rarely pay *enough*.

EW is a really amazing ability, and often puts SCs far above both their standard counterparts, and what would be reasonably expected for their cost.

McNinja wrote:
When a character has EW, whether homebrew or GW official, it needs to be paid for in points, and fully justified in a logical way by the fluff.

Again, that's my point - EW is very rarely justified - either in fluff or in points. If you've made a character who can walk off a battle-cannon shell hit to the face, you'd better be willing to give a damn good reason for it. Furthermore, I would expect such characters to have undergone dramatic augmentation, to the point where they barely resemble their kin. Conversly, virtually all SCs with EW tend to look exactly the same as their non-SC counterparts, with maybe a bionic-eye and a nicer weapon.

McNinja wrote:
That was sort of ranty, but anyway, I think having EW simply makes a character/monster more menacing, and can add a lot to the character of the character, if you know what I mean. I don't think that anything in the new Necron codex has EW, come to think of it.

To be honest, I think EW adds too much. I can maybe understand daemons and some MCs having it, but I think that other units should avoid it. I think that SM, Eldar, DE, IG, Tau etc. heroes *should* be vulnerable to ID. They might have better skill and armour, but at heart they're still just as vulnerable as their comrades. Personally, I think this would make them far more heroic - they survive and triumph because of their tactical-prowess, skill and determination - not because they can stride invincibly around the battlefield, slaughtering anything that they touch.

Furthermore, I'd like to return to the days when characters actually *feared* MCs. When Hive Tyrants and such were avoided at all costs by characters. If a character does manage to defeat such a creature, it should be by the skin of his teeth - it should be an actual hard-won fight - not just a dull SC tearing effortlessly through said MC, with no more thought or fear than if he was swatting away a lone ripper.

Deadshot wrote:He is the equivilent to Nid Draigo, Grimnar or Abbadon. But costs 5pts more, has no 3++ or 4++, no. 2+ armour, no deep strike. Sure, tougher and stronger with more wounds, but that won't matter with every AP3 weapon being force fed to him.

You mean his Shieldwall of Tyrant Guard.

And when was the last time anyone actually had their Swarmlord suffer from Instant Death? We have a Tyranid player that uses him 3/4 of the time. Sure the plan may be to bring some Instant Death to him, but it never works out.

vipoid wrote:

Don't Necron Overlords essentially have EW anyway?

Yeah, I guess they do. RP or EL both work regardless of what caused the final wound, and they have T5 anyway, so they can only be ID'd by weapons that do it instantly or weapons that have S10.

vipoid wrote:
Again, that's my point - EW is very rarely justified - either in fluff or in points. If you've made a character who can walk off a battle-cannon shell hit to the face, you'd better be willing to give a damn good reason for it. Furthermore, I would expect such characters to have undergone dramatic augmentation, to the point where they barely resemble their kin. Conversly, virtually all SCs with EW tend to look exactly the same as their non-SC counterparts, with maybe a bionic-eye and a nicer weapon.

I agree. Draigo for instance, is only said to be adept at messing around in the warp. Nothing is really stated about how insanely tough he is, just how badass he is, and the two don't equate to the same thing.

vipoid wrote:
To be honest, I think EW adds too much. I can maybe understand daemons and some MCs having it, but I think that other units should avoid it. I think that SM, Eldar, DE, IG, Tau etc. heroes *should* be vulnerable to ID. They might have better skill and armour, but at heart they're still just as vulnerable as their comrades. Personally, I think this would make them far more heroic - they survive and triumph because of their tactical-prowess, skill and determination - not because they can stride invincibly around the battlefield, slaughtering anything that they touch.

Again, I agree. Except for Maugan Ra, because he just wanders around the galaxy casually roflstomping all over Hive Fleets. Seriously, though, I do find it very odd that the Avatar of Khaine does not have EW, yet Phoenix Lords, which function basically as the Dread Pirate Roberts, do. I mean, how fast does another Eldar get your armor, put it on, and get back into battle? Instantly. Does the dead Phoenix Lord just teleport out of his armor and another one takes his place instantly?

vipoid wrote:
Furthermore, I'd like to return to the days when characters actually *feared* MCs. When Hive Tyrants and such were avoided at all costs by characters. If a character does manage to defeat such a creature, it should be by the skin of his teeth - it should be an actual hard-won fight - not just a dull SC tearing effortlessly through said MC, with no more thought or fear than if he was swatting away a lone ripper.

Right now, I think that is the Swarmlord. You have a T6 5W 4++ save model roaming the field with 4 ID attacks. If that isn't scary, I don't know what is. I think something like Old One Eye should have EW because it is an old, very powerful Carnifex.

It all basically comes down to the fluff for the model. If you know you want that model/character to have EW, you have to consider what can cause ID, then you have to create a way for that model/character to survive that. Not just armor or skill, but legitimate toughness. How would a character survive a Force Weapon? One doesn't just shrug that sort of thing off. Also, adjusting for the cost of EW is fairly dynamic; if a model already has T5, that already disallows ID from any weapon under S10. T6 disallows ID from any weapons that don't auto-ID. At that point, EW would only help against Force weapons and other weapons that cause auto-ID, so you'd only be paying for that.

Hopefully I haven't repeated you or myself too much.

The Avatar of Khaine is a Daemon, so he has it.

vipoid wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'd rather the Swarmlord didn't have EW.

However, I'd rather no special characters had EW.

I think it's a lazy rule, put in purely to lend an unnecessary level of 'awsome' to each designer's favourite SC.

Sorry, but no amount of prestiege or experience on the battlefield should allow you to withstand a direct hit from a siege weapon.

Hmmm. . . I don't see EW as representing a character who is just SO HARDCORE (hnnngh!) that they can take a Basilisk shell to the chin and have a cheerful laugh about it later. Rather, I see as being an abstract representation of the fact that the warriors who have lived for a long time and become famous have done so at least partially because they know when to duck. Lysander having EW makes perfect sense to me; he's not just a Terminator Captain. He's famous specifically because he's survived things that Average Joe Space Marine would not survive. And you're right; physically, he's not that different from any other Space Marine. So how'd he do it? A combination of luck, skill, and almost certainly a highly-developed sense of when to get OUT of the way of the lascannon beam, or incoming artillery shell, or swinging chainfist. Now, that kind of instinct doesn't always kick in quite fast enough; he still takes a wound from those things as the lascannon rakes across his hip instead of bisecting him, or he gets caught in the blast radius of the shell but not directly hit, or the chainfist shears some fingers off the hand he threw up to deflect it instead of pulping his chest. But he isn't out of the fight yet. EW is an abstract representation of the fact that heroes are heroes specifically because they can get themselves out of scrapes like that without being killed.

Perhaps this is because I view the die-rolling of 40k to be a very abstract representation. A 'hit' doesn't necessarily mean that the bolt shell or whatever has actually, physically struck the target; it means that the shooter is firing at about the right place, and the target is in danger. A 'wound', similarly, doesn't mean a solid hit that killed the target. A Terminator might take a 'wound' and be out of action because the heat of a lascannon beam swept over him and fused all the joints in his armor together, even though he's actually fine. Hits and Wounds only mean there's a chance someone will be hurt or inconvenienced, and there's a chance that it will be bad enough (or persistent enough) that they are, at least temporarily, unable to fight any longer.

I actually like the rule, in that sense; not everyone should have it (for fluff and/or gameplay balance reasons), but there's commonly an excellent fluff justification for it. For instance, I've been writing up rules for founding members of the Traitor Legions who have survived ten millenia in the Eye of Terror, and all of them have EW. Why? Not because their flesh is capable of withstand a direct hit from a battlecannon shell or any such stupidity (well, except possibly in the case of the Rubric Marines) but because they have lived for ten millenia in the Eye of Terror. The ones who WEREN'T supernaturally good at getting out of the way of things that murder you instantly have long since died, living in that environment. The ones who are left will practically never BE there when the shell hits, and they know exactly how to turn and move so that the shockwave will do the minimum damage. That sort of thing. Of course, it's a powerful special rule, and like any powerful special rule it does need to be paid for appropriately.

On topic: I can maybe see the Swarmlord getting EW, but if he does he's going to become a 320-point beast instead of a 280-point one, or something like that. ID may not be common, but it is highly effective, so removing the possibility has to be paid for.

Deadshot wrote:The Avatar of Khaine is a Daemon, so he has it.

The Avatar of Khaine is a unit in the Eldar codex, and does not, regardless of what he is.

He is noted as being a Daemon. It is a special rule of his. Therefore he hs EW.

Daemons do not have Eternal Warrior.

Daemons in the Chaos Daemons army list do.

As to why the Avatar does not have it and Phoenix Lords do, try and think of all the ways that could Instant Death to a Toughness 6 model when the Eldar codex was written.

Force Weapons, Dire Swords, D-Weapons.

if you can quote to me where it says the Avatar has EW in the ELDAR codex, you can play him as that.

Otherwise, i'm coming for him with all my Forceweapons

Deadshot wrote:He is noted as being a Daemon. It is a special rule of his. Therefore he hs EW.

Where does it say that Daemons have Eternal Warrior? It surely doesn't in the Eldar codex. Or the Eldar FAQ. In fact, the only thing his Daemon special rule grants him is a 4++ and being affected by things Daemons are affected by. No Eternal Warrior.

In the Codex Daemons, we see, "Every model in this army has the Eternal Warrior..." - looks like gak sucks for 'Ol Khaineypoo.

Also, are you arguing his 3+ is actually a 3++, and he has the daemonic assault special rule?

chrisrawr wrote:

Deadshot wrote:He is noted as being a Daemon. It is a special rule of his. Therefore he hs EW.

Where does it say that Daemons have Eternal Warrior? It surely doesn't in the Eldar codex. Or the Eldar FAQ. In fact, the only thing his Daemon special rule grants him is a 4++ and being affected by things Daemons are affected by. No Eternal Warrior.

In the Codex Daemons, we see, "Every model in this army has the Eternal Warrior..." - looks like gak sucks for 'Ol Khaineypoo.

Also, are you arguing his 3+ is actually a 3++, and he has the daemonic assault special rule?

Dude no need to be impolite he was only quoting what the rule says in the codex, I know he doesn't have EW but there's no need to be a cigarette about it.

vipoid wrote:I think that SM, Eldar, DE, IG, Tau etc. heroes *should* be vulnerable to ID. They might have better skill and armour, but at heart they're still just as vulnerable as their comrades. Personally, I think this would make them far more heroic - they survive and triumph because of their tactical-prowess, skill and determination - not because they can stride invincibly around the battlefield, slaughtering anything that they touch.

currently, aren't the only Eldar and DE characters that have EW the Avatar(a frickin daemon) and the phoenix lords + DE phoenix lord (some debate about whether they are actually men or merely suits of armor animated by spirits)

Exergy wrote:
currently, aren't the only Eldar and DE characters that have EW the Avatar(a frickin daemon) and the phoenix lords + DE phoenix lord (some debate about whether they are actually men or merely suits of armor animated by spirits)

Almost, the Avatar does not have Eternal Warrior. This brings the number of Eldar and Dark Eldar models with Eternal Warrior that will actually turn up in a game zero.

Does DE have a Pheonix Lord?

In my opinion, things with Eternal Warrior should be GREATLY reduced. The Swarmlord is one of the few non-Apoc things I could see having Eternal Warrior. Greater Daemons, The Avatar of Khaine, and any really special MC's like that merit EW. I can think of about 2 Space Marines that should have EW, Draigo, I find justifiable to have it, not that I like him or his fluff, but by his fluff it is justified. Dante... He doesn't have it, Papa Smurf does, but the oldest Space Marine alive (iirc) doesn't?
The Phoenix Lords are legendary warriors who rise from the dead, I can see why they may merit EW. Ghazgkull Thraka is an invincible beast almost as large as a MC, his EW is justified.

Space Marines like Calgar and Grimnar should not have it. Any monstrous creature un-named or not a greater daemon should not have it. Codex: Tyranids would balance out with it, but I don't think synapse is actually THAT powerful.

Drazhar is thought to be a Pheonix Lord, it doesn't go right out and say it, but it's very heavily implied.

If swarmlord had ew that be horrifying. lol He's already one of the meanest things in cc.

Draigo beats him on the charge 9/10 and quite often not charging. And is 5pts cheaper.

Deadshot wrote:Draigo beats him on the charge 9/10 and quite often not charging. And is 5pts cheaper.

Did you do the math with or without 2 tyrant guard? I havent seen him without at least 1. If he has them you cant single him out. Plus with paroxysm your ws 1.

Thats if you get Paraxysm to work. And Draigo gets 2.paladins if you get Guard, with lash whips surely? So I'll take a Bro Banner please!!

Deadshot wrote:Force Weapons, Dire Swords, D-Weapons.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. At the time the Eldar book was written:

Force Weapons removed all remaining wounds not Instant Death.
Dire Swords, still do not cause Instant Death just remove from play.
D-weapons didn't even exist.

Deadshot wrote:Thats if you get Paraxysm to work. And Draigo gets 2.paladins if you get Guard, with lash whips surely? So I'll take a Bro Banner please!!

Well if draigo hits you dont really need the banner. Daemonbane can do the trick as well though maybe not as reliable. On a side note it was funny this weekend watching an over confident ba player watch mephiston get gibbed in one round vs swarmie. lol

Deadshot wrote:Thats if you get Paraxysm to work. And Draigo gets 2.paladins if you get Guard, with lash whips surely? So I'll take a Bro Banner please!!

With no psychic defense, paroxysm has a 1/12 chance to fail. I'll take those odds.

2/12 ctually. And Aegis makes this 3/12=1/4.

Plus you might be out of range. Or I might get the charge before you use it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Thats if you get Paraxysm to work. And Draigo gets 2.paladins if you get Guard, with lash whips surely? So I'll take a Bro Banner please!!

With no psychic defense, paroxysm has a 1/12 chance to fail. I'll take those odds.

If Draigo is in combat while it is the Tyrants turn then the Tyrant won't be able to use Paroxysm as it's a PSA, therefore you might not be able to use it if Draigo breaks out and then it's his turn again, he could also be in a land raider, There could be a Dreadnought within 12" of Draigo meaning you're now at -4ld to cast the psychic power. There is much more to consider in a proper tabletop game in 40k as comparing 1v1's have a completely different outcome when there are armies on the table.

What he said ^.

But what did you mean by Draigo breaking out?

Deadshot wrote:What he said ^.

But what did you mean by Draigo breaking out?

Killing the Unit/Consolidating, sorry about that.

But yeah there are a lot more factors involved lol.

So if papa smurf shouldn't have it, a certain commissar Yarrick shouldn't have it either?

EW represents (in my mind) Hero's luck - thier uncanny ability to survive where lesser men fall - Draigo's squad might be hit by a demolisher cannon while he's dropped his storm shield, but luck, or perhaps a bit of the Emperor's guidance will ensure he is in the one place where he has a chance of surviving. As to why Dante doesn't have it, I don't know. But should the Swarmlord get it? Well, very few things will ID swarmy. He'd be nearly impossible to put down with it, as he;s pretty tough anyway. If he got it, he's need some sort of drop elsewhere, game balance and all that.

Well only D weapons and D cannons can really ID him with shooting, and when you are Int 6, Str 6, WS 9 and an ID inflicting MC that forces you to reroll all successful invulnerables, what psyker coukd ID him? Any Grey Knight unit on the Charge? Thought so?

Simply put, people want a little protection from GKs.

McNinja wrote:Again, I agree. Except for Maugan Ra, because he just wanders around the galaxy casually roflstomping all over Hive Fleets. Seriously, though, I do find it very odd that the Avatar of Khaine does not have EW, yet Phoenix Lords, which function basically as the Dread Pirate Roberts, do. I mean, how fast does another Eldar get your armor, put it on, and get back into battle? Instantly. Does the dead Phoenix Lord just teleport out of his armor and another one takes his place instantly?

it is alluded to in the fluff that Phoenix Lords are mere spirits animating the suits of armor. No one is sure what Drazzar looks like as he never takes off his armor and thus no one is sure there is even a man inside, nor does he ever speak.

Personally I'd like to see the swarm lord with some form of warp shield, he is suppose to be one of the most powerful creatures the tyranids make, and is one that is constantly resurrects to fight in other battles.

I could see him having both eternal warrior and a ranged invulnerable.

hell i could see his shadow in the warp causing ID as he's pretty much the closest thing to the hive mind you can get and that messes people up from orbit.

I'd say some sort of shooting Inv, but EW? When it'll only protect VS GK? If you want to pay the extra points for an upgrade that will only see use against one army, then be my guest.

liquidjoshi wrote:I'd say some sort of shooting Inv, but EW? When it'll only protect VS GK? If you want to pay the extra points for an upgrade that will only see use against one army, then be my guest.

And Space Wolves. And Blood Angels. And Eldar. And Vanilla Marines. And Chaos Space Marines. And Chaos Daemons. And, IIRC, Dark Eldar. There's more weapons than NFWs that cause Instant Death. Especially considering they're not the only force weapons out there.

Yes, but with Int 6, T6 and a 4++ they will have a time.of it. GK can reduce him to Int 1 on the charge, increase their str and have Daemonbane.

Deadshot wrote:He is the equivilent to Nid Draigo, Grimnar or Abbadon. But costs 5pts more, has no 3++ or 4++, no. 2+ armour, no deep strike. Sure, tougher and stronger with more wounds, but that won't matter with every AP3 weapon being force fed to him.

It does when he can also take a bodyguard, has invul save mitigation on his own attacks and excellent army buff bonuses, and still gets a decent invul in CC.

He's one of the few really good Tyranid units, he really doesn't need to be made any better. The rest of the book needs a lot of work, but the Swarmlord is a great unit for his cost already.

He is a great army booster, but some just want an all round beatstick. Something the Nid codex lacks.

Abbaddon, Logan and Draigo are able to get far better guards than TG.

McNinja wrote:

vipoid wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'd rather the Swarmlord didn't have EW.

However, I'd rather no special characters had EW.

I think it's a lazy rule, put in purely to lend an unnecessary level of 'awsome' to each designer's favourite SC.

Sorry, but no amount of prestiege or experience on the battlefield should allow you to withstand a direct hit from a siege weapon.

I don't think EW is an "experience" thing, more of a "I'm about 20 feet tall and punch buildings on a daily basis" sort of thing. EW doesn't denote experience, but rather an extraordinary toughness due to size or something else. For instance, I've created three Necron characters, and only one has EW. Why? Because his whole shtick is being able to get back up no matter what put him down. I think the people who make their characters with EW don't consider the ramifications of actually having EW until they've played a game where ID/EW came into play.

When a character has EW, whether homebrew or GW official, it needs to be paid for in points, and fully justified in a logical way by the fluff.

That was sort of ranty, but anyway, I think having EW simply makes a character/monster more menacing, and can add a lot to the character of the character, if you know what I mean. I don't think that anything in the new Necron codex has EW, come to think of it.

I agree. Also, in the lore dosent the swarmlord never die? It says "the swarmlord is deathless, each time the swarmlord dies the hivemind reabsorbs him and is reborn"

If that dosent denote EW I dont know what does.

Deadshot wrote:
Abbaddon, Logan and Draigo are able to get far better guards than TG.

Nothing in any codex is better at protecting one guy than Tyrant Guard.

Deadshot wrote:He is a great army booster, but some just want an all round beatstick. Something the Nid codex lacks.

Abbaddon, Logan and Draigo are able to get far better guards than TG.

Except they can be singled out in cc swarmie can't.

Draigo wrote:

Deadshot wrote:He is a great army booster, but some just want an all round beatstick. Something the Nid codex lacks.

Abbaddon, Logan and Draigo are able to get far better guards than TG.

Except they can be singled out in cc swarmie can't.

This is something I don't see enough appreciation for. The Swarmlord (or any hive Tyrant) in a brood of Tyrant Guard are effectively a sergeant. They're not an Independant Character (they join the Tyrant Guard brood like an Independant Character, but they don't gain the Independant Character rule when doing it), they can't be singled out in assault, they don't have to move into base to base contact in assault, and can make all their attacks from behind the wall of Tyrant Guard. It makes it very hard to actually land hits on the Swarmlord or Hive Tyrant.

Broodlords are the same. They have stats and close combat abilities that make Space Marine characters weep, and its only downside is its save. When you consider its buried in a huge Genestealer brood like any other sergeant, it becomes a lot harder to deal with.

The difference between the Broodlord and Tyrant/Swarmlord is that the HT/SW will always be engaged. What happens when the broodlord is at the front and the unit gets charged in the rear?

You can always have a what if/not optimal scenario for anything so thats moot. Thats like saying well ork boyz are good but if theyre hit with a battle canon template.. If they get charged they get charged but you do the best you can to avoid that just like vs big guns you try to stay in cover.

I've lost the Swarmlord more than once to the New Cheese on the Block: Mindshackle Scarabs. Having him impale himself on his own Bonesabers is disheartening to say the least. Because the Swarmlord only has 3+ armor and a 4++ in Close Combat, he should definitely be given Eternal Warrior. The rest of the synapse creatures can do without it, but Swarmlord really needs it.

Unless that would make the Codex too powerful of course. (Damn you Robin Cruddace!)

Mindshackles only work on a random model in base contact. To avoid it, put more guys in base contact and keep the guys you don't want Mindshackled away from that guy.

My C'tan with Time's Arrow alongside Wraiths with whip coils laugh at your wished for Eternal Warrior

Billagio wrote:

McNinja wrote:

vipoid wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'd rather the Swarmlord didn't have EW.

However, I'd rather no special characters had EW.

I think it's a lazy rule, put in purely to lend an unnecessary level of 'awsome' to each designer's favourite SC.

Sorry, but no amount of prestiege or experience on the battlefield should allow you to withstand a direct hit from a siege weapon.

I don't think EW is an "experience" thing, more of a "I'm about 20 feet tall and punch buildings on a daily basis" sort of thing. EW doesn't denote experience, but rather an extraordinary toughness due to size or something else. For instance, I've created three Necron characters, and only one has EW. Why? Because his whole shtick is being able to get back up no matter what put him down. I think the people who make their characters with EW don't consider the ramifications of actually having EW until they've played a game where ID/EW came into play.

When a character has EW, whether homebrew or GW official, it needs to be paid for in points, and fully justified in a logical way by the fluff.

That was sort of ranty, but anyway, I think having EW simply makes a character/monster more menacing, and can add a lot to the character of the character, if you know what I mean. I don't think that anything in the new Necron codex has EW, come to think of it.

I agree. Also, in the lore dosent the swarmlord never die? It says "the swarmlord is deathless, each time the swarmlord dies the hivemind reabsorbs him and is reborn"

If that dosent denote EW I dont know what does.

But as the rule book says " death " in a game doesnt mean he actually died. It can mean he is out of action.
Game wise, Swarmlord can die, fluffwise, the "vessel" also does die.
Its the essence that gets reabsorbed and reborn.

DarknessEternal wrote:Mindshackles only work on a random model in base contact. To avoid it, put more guys in base contact and keep the guys you don't want Mindshackled away from that guy.

This. If you know where the mind shackles are, keep 3 Tyrant Guard between him and the scarabs.

Still though, you should have a bubble wap unit of Termagants or something near the Swarmlord anyway.

Actually, it doesn't matter if the Swarmlord has EW. He's still going to be if he gets in range of wraithcannons/d-cannons or ion cannons.

Of all the rules I have written for SCs, 2 have had EW and one of them lives outside time. Some character's backgrounds pretty much demand EW. Swarmie is one of those characters, along with Dante and maybe Yarrick (he did have his arm lopped off and then killed a warboss, after all...)

Seems to me the main reason for his EW warrior is grey knights and if this is the case, i think the problem lies with the grey knights.

I think you could justify the Swarmlord having it.

But then the swarmlord would officialy be the filth when combined with Tyrant Guard as you can't pick him out like.

Tyranid players deserve some filth.....

khaosspacemarines wrote:Tyranid players deserve some filth.....

Ah... The only time the words Tyranid and Filth are seen in a sentence that doesn't include "are anything but"

The only time Tau and Filth are mentioned in the same sentance is when "Are not at all the" is between them

Honestly, if everyone else's super special costs more than a land raider SC gets to have EW, why can't we? Why must we be able to be slain by one lucky grey knight punk with a force weapon but people like Abaddon, Gazghkull, Calgar et al don't? It's not like we're asking to give the swarmlord a invulnerable save against shooting.

You're right... no EW for anyone then! It's settled! IMHO, that would be an improvement, but it would be bad at the same time. I want it and I don't. But I digress. I think any MC with EW is going to be a bugger to kill, but then Swarmy doesn't have the greates defence without a reliable INV, his only defence is Tyrant Guard. So, sure, why not?

Oh, and at OrkEater: Epic Threadcromancy, Batman!

The mental image of some no name grey knight killing Abaddon with a lucky scratch to his shoulder with a force weapon and thus stopping the entirety of the thirteenth black crusade in it's track as the forces of Chaos crap their collective pants at the death of their leader, is quite frankly, absolutely bloody hilarious.

Which is quite plausible. Draigo was just a lowly GK before killing M'kar. Then WOOOSH! He's Superman who does better than ANYONE else. Then he kills a Primarch, and becomes Chapter Lord.

Mordrak, Crowe and Stern as well as a non-playable GK captain all fought on Armeggedfon War 1. Look at them.now. Grand Master, Brother Captain and Master Purifier+Brotherhood Champion.

Maybe some lowly initiate will jill Abbaddon and then mindrape the Eldar?

Only if we let Ward come back for seconds.

Swarmlord is toughness 6, activate force weapons on 3d6. I play nids. he basically is EW.

Not if they have a Brotherhood Banner. They autopass the test. And most psykers have high.Ld anyway. Eldar Seers are 10, Libbies are 10, GK are 8-10, Chaos Sorcerors are 10 and DP are 10. Orks and Psyker Battle Squads are 7 IIRC and Wierdboys can be 8-10 if tgere are more than 7 orks in the.mob.

so basically EW is only good against grey knights (in this situation)

What I would really like is 5 wound regular tyrant. as well as an option for an invul for more points. swarm lord has one, i know. but he is a lot of points as has way more stuff than just an invul more.

It's just that it's really not fair that at least one of everyone else's super special 200+ point special character gets eternal warrior but none of ours do. What makes us so unfavourited that a single nemesis force hammer will pretty much always ensure the Swarmlord is not going to be on the table in one turn?

Deadshot wrote:Not if they have a Brotherhood Banner. They autopass the test. And most psykers have high.Ld anyway. Eldar Seers are 10, Libbies are 10, GK are 8-10, Chaos Sorcerors are 10 and DP are 10. Orks and Psyker Battle Squads are 7 IIRC and Wierdboys can be 8-10 if tgere are more than 7 orks in the.mob.

Weirdboyz can also be Ld 2 should there be 2 boyz in the mob and h chooses to swap his Ld (Which he can)

GoDz BuZzSaW wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Not if they have a Brotherhood Banner. They autopass the test. And most psykers have high.Ld anyway. Eldar Seers are 10, Libbies are 10, GK are 8-10, Chaos Sorcerors are 10 and DP are 10. Orks and Psyker Battle Squads are 7 IIRC and Wierdboys can be 8-10 if tgere are more than 7 orks in the.mob.

Weirdboyz can also be Ld 2 should there be 2 boyz in the mob and h chooses to swap his Ld (Which he can)

Except that nobody sane would ever do that.

DreadlordME! wrote:A 280 point beast like that should be EW in my opinion.

T6 and 5 Wounds? No.

phantommaster wrote:

DreadlordME! wrote:A 280 point beast like that should be EW in my opinion.

T6 and 5 Wounds? No.

Draigo-T 5, 4 wounds, 2+/3++ and EW
Lysander- T4, 4wounds, 2+/3++ and EW
Bloodthirseter- T6, , W4, 4++ all time, and EW
Lord of Change- T6, W4, 3++ or 4++ all time amd EW
GUO- IIRC he has -T7, FNP, 4++ or 5++ all time,W4, and EW.
But T6,, W5 ans a 3+ armour, with only a 4++ in CC? Not a chance.

Ok , Giving a creature thats already hard to kill with AT weapons and giving it Enternal Warrior ? its what toughness 6 nothing can insta kill it except titan Weapons , let alone NO Conventinal infantry weapon can truely hurt you , Pointless making an Already powerful peice invincibility almost , like giving Commisar Yarrack 9 wounds , think about it

Then why do DP, summond Greater Daemons and all MC Chaos Daemons have it if it is so cheesy.

And the fact that D weapons can destroy it is even.worse. I actually did play a game with a swarmlord who had 3 guards. The Turbolaser shot landed so that every model in the unit was.covered and they all died.

Whereas Marneus Calgar just tanked out a Volcano Cannon shot


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Then why do DP, summond Greater Daemons and all MC Chaos Daemons have it if it is so cheesy.

And the fact that D weapons can destroy it is even.worse. I actually did play a game with a swarmlord who had 3 guards. The Turbolaser shot landed so that every model in the unit was.covered and they all died.

Whereas Marneus Calgar just tanked out a Volcano Cannon shot

That gak about no sidearms hurting it? Yeah, Lasguns can.hurt it. AT weapons, namely Meltas and Krak missiles wound on 2+ and ignore its.armour, so those 2 points are wrong.

Kasrkin229 wrote:Ok , Giving a creature thats already hard to kill with AT weapons and giving it Enternal Warrior ? its what toughness 6 nothing can insta kill it except titan Weapons , let alone NO Conventinal infantry weapon can truely hurt you , Pointless making an Already powerful peice invincibility almost , like giving Commisar Yarrack 9 wounds , think about it

*cough* Force Weapons *cough*

Deadshots argument wins it for me.

EW it is!@

phantommaster wrote:

DreadlordME! wrote:A 280 point beast like that should be EW in my opinion.

T6 and 5 Wounds? No.

Have him get killed by one no name arsehat with a nemesis hammer and then come back to us. Literally all of the swarmlord's equivalents get eternal warrior and I feel that the nids have been punished enough already with their godawful codex.

Deadshot wrote:

phantommaster wrote:

DreadlordME! wrote:A 280 point beast like that should be EW in my opinion.

T6 and 5 Wounds? No.

Draigo-T 5, 4 wounds, 2+/3++ and EW
Lysander- T4, 4wounds, 2+/3++ and EW
Bloodthirseter- T6, , W4, 4++ all time, and EW
Lord of Change- T6, W4, 3++ or 4++ all time amd EW
GUO- IIRC he has -T7, FNP, 4++ or 5++ all time,W4, and EW.
But T6,, W5 ans a 3+ armour, with only a 4++ in CC? Not a chance.

Lets see how many things can Instant Death this:

Callidus Assassin
Wraithguard
Force Weapon
Jaws
Warp Rift
Old Zog (Ork guy)

Just off the top of my head, now 4 of those are Psychic Powers which are quite hard to get off with Shadow in the Warp.

Oh BTW, you forgot Mephiston: T6, 5 Wounds, only 1 point of save better, doesn't deserve Eternal Warrior either?

phantommaster wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

phantommaster wrote:

DreadlordME! wrote:A 280 point beast like that should be EW in my opinion.

T6 and 5 Wounds? No.

Draigo-T 5, 4 wounds, 2+/3++ and EW
Lysander- T4, 4wounds, 2+/3++ and EW
Bloodthirseter- T6, , W4, 4++ all time, and EW
Lord of Change- T6, W4, 3++ or 4++ all time amd EW
GUO- IIRC he has -T7, FNP, 4++ or 5++ all time,W4, and EW.
But T6,, W5 ans a 3+ armour, with only a 4++ in CC? Not a chance.

Lets see how many things can Instant Death this:

Callidus Assassin
Wraithguard
Force Weapon
Jaws
Warp Rift
Old Zog (Ork guy)

Just off the top of my head, now 4 of those are Psychic Powers which are quite hard to get off with Shadow in the Warp.

Oh BTW, you forgot Mephiston: T6, 5 Wounds, only 1 point of save better, doesn't deserve Eternal Warrior either?

Honestly I wouldn't mind people like Mephiston and Grimaldus getting Eternal Warrior. But Robin Cruddance decided that giving the Tyranids EW to match literally everyone else's close combat kill train was too much to ask for, just another addition to his long list of spiteful pot shots at the Tyranids. Honestly I like Robin less than Ward, at least Ward shows Enthusiasm, whereas I highly suspect that Robin in all actuality didn't like the Tyranids very much, and thus decided to go in and slap the Tyranids with the single least competitive 5th edition codex.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Kasrkin229 wrote:Ok , Giving a creature thats already hard to kill with AT weapons and giving it Enternal Warrior ? its what toughness 6 nothing can insta kill it except titan Weapons , let alone NO Conventinal infantry weapon can truely hurt you , Pointless making an Already powerful peice invincibility almost , like giving Commisar Yarrack 9 wounds , think about it

*cough* Force Weapons *cough*

yes but not all of us where as gifted as the Grey Knights when it came to some OP weapons ,

phantommaster wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

phantommaster wrote:

DreadlordME! wrote:A 280 point beast like that should be EW in my opinion.

T6 and 5 Wounds? No.

Draigo-T 5, 4 wounds, 2+/3++ and EW
Lysander- T4, 4wounds, 2+/3++ and EW
Bloodthirseter- T6, , W4, 4++ all time, and EW
Lord of Change- T6, W4, 3++ or 4++ all time amd EW
GUO- IIRC he has -T7, FNP, 4++ or 5++ all time,W4, and EW.
But T6,, W5 ans a 3+ armour, with only a 4++ in CC? Not a chance.

Lets see how many things can Instant Death this:

Callidus Assassin
Wraithguard
Force Weapon
Jaws
Warp Rift
Old Zog (Ork guy)

Just off the top of my head, now 4 of those are Psychic Powers which are quite hard to get off with Shadow in the Warp.

Oh BTW, you forgot Mephiston: T6, 5 Wounds, only 1 point of save better, doesn't deserve Eternal Warrior either?

Nothing about him or his fluff needs eternal warrior. Both Draigo and Lysander have rather remarkable backstories. Mephiston got over being angry. He's still a normal SM. He didn't frolic through the warp like Draigo, he didn't survive being tortured for years on end (in the warp), and he isn't a daemon.

The Swarmlord is supposed to be the baddest of them all, yet he can get roflstomped easily by by weapons that would only slightly singe the above mentioned EW guys.

Kasrkin229 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Kasrkin229 wrote:Ok , Giving a creature thats already hard to kill with AT weapons and giving it Enternal Warrior ? its what toughness 6 nothing can insta kill it except titan Weapons , let alone NO Conventinal infantry weapon can truely hurt you , Pointless making an Already powerful peice invincibility almost , like giving Commisar Yarrack 9 wounds , think about it

*cough* Force Weapons *cough*

yes but not all of us where as gifted as the Grey Knights when it came to some OP weapons ,

Watching your swarmlord get punked by a no name librarian with a force staff is demoralizing. Especially when the much smaller Marneus Calgar would laugh at said force staff.

Kasrkin229 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Kasrkin229 wrote:Ok , Giving a creature thats already hard to kill with AT weapons and giving it Enternal Warrior ? its what toughness 6 nothing can insta kill it except titan Weapons , let alone NO Conventinal infantry weapon can truely hurt you , Pointless making an Already powerful peice invincibility almost , like giving Commisar Yarrack 9 wounds , think about it

*cough* Force Weapons *cough*

yes but not all of us where as gifted as the Grey Knights when it came to some OP weapons ,

You said nothing bar Titan Weapons could ID him, I proved you wrong. Why does that mean you have to rage a bit at Grey Knights just because?

Well snap. Didn't think about that part personally.

However, with the arrival of 6th Ed I think it's now a rather moot point.

EW would be really sweet, but I'd rather all Hive Tyrants have some sort of Invulnerable save at all times, not just the Swarmlord in CC.

Hell, I'd love any Invulnerable saves in my Tyranids other than Zoanthropes.

You mean plasma spam is an effective way to deal with 'Nids?



Why did I not realise this before? Damn....

Nidzilla hates Plasma spam because we don't get any of those precious invulnerable saves.