It was only afew minutes ago as i was looking through GW's website that I realised the game has chaged abit since i started and im not sure its for the best.
Dont get me wrong some of the new models look really nice but i dont know, it feels less grim than it used to. Its alot more bright and comic that it was, all the pictures of the models are on bright sunlight planets.
And the direction all the armies seem to be taking now seems to be moving away from the medievil church fearing people in space approch.

I liked the whole medievil christianity in space approch like the witch hunters had, with penitent engines punishing those for their sins and the space marines been holy warriors.
Now it just seems to be more about looking cool, like with the tau and eldar and now the necrons new looks. What happened to all the scary imagery, the feeling of a dreded future.
It felt oppressive, now we have dawn of war spawning memes and stories in the 40k universe that could pass for more fan fiction than cannon. I miss the old codex's where every story usually ended up with the death of the main character at the hands of some horror from space, like the immortal necrons or the cursed chaos marines, its lost some of its dangerous mystery. Thats what made the necrons scary.

Though I largely agree, I feel obliged to point out that colours (and general atmosphere) are still muted compared with the eye-searing standards of the mid-1990s. Flip through a White Dwarf in the #160s if you want a retina-damagingly horrid example.

But yes, things do seem to be taking a turn back towards silver age heroics, and away from the setting's grim influences. And yes, I would be inclined to lay the blame upon he who shall not be named.

Our Spiritual Liege has deemed it necessary to make 40k less grim-dark. It shall be so.

Started with the Tau and continues with the newcrons...say hello to Empire-like Imperium in the next Codex...

So necrons arent scary? Good im going to go tell that to the one thaat is lining up his gauss gun now.

Not anymore they're not. They used to be lovecraftian nightmares from the War in Heaven led by soul-eating star vampires, now they're Tomb Kings in SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACE!

Exactly.

SM became all honourable-like instead of being xenocidal fanatics. That sucked. My BT are still xenocidal fanatics, but they're the minority now...

Necrons became about as threatening as Hello Kitty (threatening mildly, but not overly so). The Newcrons just don't give me the willies

GK went from Puritan badass to bad fanfic Radicals. It killed their awesomeness for me.

DE are about the only recent change in faction fluff i approve of, mostly. They went from S+M junkies to COOL S+M junkies with meglomania issues

Necron became more scary. A highly advance army with a soul but think thy are superior? Count me in.

They are just like every other army then..

Superiority issues and souls, and the faction too scattered and disorganised to be a real threat

Well, almost every army..

I found the newcrons to be a copy and paste job from Armybook TK, with vehicles, but if you prefer the new take on them then more power to you

Ascalam wrote:Exactly.

SM became all honourable-like instead of being xenocidal fanatics. That sucked. My BT are still xenocidal fanatics, but they're the minority now...

Necrons became about as threatening as Hello Kitty (threatening mildly, but not overly so). The Newcrons just don't give me the willies

GK went from Puritan badass to bad fanfic Radicals. It killed their awesomeness for me.

DE are about the only recent change in faction fluff i approve of, mostly. They went from S+M junkies to COOL S+M junkies with meglomania issues

The Space Marines and the Dark Eldar aren't so bad...but the Grey Knights are just damn bad. From legendary daemonhunters they became stereotypical knights and fanatics.

Necrons are now just copies of the Tomb Kings from Warhammer Fantasy.

Yeah finshed reading the Cron book last night, found it to be just.....boring.
Virtually nothing grabbed me or stood out as a cool piece of fluff.
Every codex has the little important dates/events section which give mini pieces of fluff surrounding battles/incidents. Boy was the Cron one uninspired.

As for the shift in their lore/background, I hated it for the reasons posted above.

I agree.
Necrons used to be a souless high tech army intent on destroying life for their powerful star gods.

Now they are glitchy disfuctional robots trying to regain their old empire and life. Not nearly as spooky.

Oh come on.. New Necrons are scariest army ever. Just imagine your Space Marines or Tyranids being attacked by a Necron lord that wants to steal your art!.

My Nids draw like 6 year olds on a sugar rush, he can steal away!

Tadashi wrote:the Grey Knights are just damn bad. From legendary daemonhunters they became stereotypical knights and fanatics.

Could you elaborate on this a little? I don't see it.

Ratius wrote:My Nids draw like 6 year olds on a sugar rush, he can steal away!

Your nids are as good as Picasso

Oh wowzers, this thread again, has it been 2 days already?

These threads all turn into a free for all for Ward haters, and how people keep saying the Necrons are now Tomb Kings in space......they always have been tomb kings in space, hell their only vehicle in the last codex was a floating pyramid.

English Assassin wrote:... I feel obliged to point out that colours (and general atmosphere) are still muted compared with the eye-searing standards of the mid-1990s. Flip through a White Dwarf in the #160s if you want a retina-damagingly horrid example. [/url].

This. Less grim dark? Have you seen the older models?
I always thought WH40k seemed to be pretty goofy and wacky back in the day and now tried to be more serious since the fluff has evolved into something that people take very seriously.
Both from codex and miniature design there seems to have been an evolution from a crazy comic design to a very dark and realistic fashion (which of course has also come with the greater detail they can manufacture now a days). If necessary I can post some picture but its easier to just look at some stuff from 2nd edition and then look at some of the current releases.

Third edition was probably the point when 40k was the most grimdark. Thing is, it was almost TOO much so. It was grimdark to the point of ridiculousness. The fluff was in danger of becoming a parody of itself. It was very much a whiplash from the bright heroics of the earlier editions. I do appreciate that the game takes itself more seriously than in the early days. But if it is too serious, it's like a preteen who just learned to swear. It just screams "Look at me, I have mature content."

It's nice to see a balance between the two extremes.

ashrog wrote: I do appreciate that the game takes itself more seriously than in the early days. But if it is too serious, it's like a preteen who just learned to swear. It just screams "Look at me, I have mature content."

Isn't this the truth.

People complain about Tau and Necron not being grimdark enough. It's nonsense. Tau have a shiny facade but a dark secret in that they're probably mind controlled. Necron are a race that destroyed themselves to save themselves. That's mature grimdark. Some people seem to think grimdark means skulls all over everything and man we can do so much better than that.

I want more psychological grimdark.

Fire_for_effect wrote:This. Less grim dark? Have you seen the older models?

For what it's worth, I think that whilst the models have become somewhat more serious (ridiculous overplayed skull and pauldron clichés aside), the fluff has taken a sharp turn away from "Grimdark" and into "Cool and Awesome", removing much of the more controversial content and replacing it with a somewhat more simplified "we kick ass in space" attitude. This is not the fault of a single individual like Mat Ward, this is GW as a company adapting to the next generation of its target audience, following the current trend of focusing entirely on the action like in some Michael Bay movie. And 40k is by far not the only franchise where I noticed this development - have you ever compared the older writing for the Warcraft setting with the current version of the MMO?

Though as for the miniatures, there are a couple things that bothered me. Daemonettes turning from creepy but sexy succubi into ugly hags is one, or Marines more and more ursurping the Sisters' style (iron halo? come on). About the new 'cron minis I'm on the fence, some look better, some look worse. Old DE Wytches definitely looked better than new ones, if only because they actually had a somewhat female shape befitting their alleged grace and mobility instead of looking like a gang thug on steroids.

When did it happen? 1E, Rogue Trader. And 2E. Then things got more grimdark. And then less.

Just get used to the ideas that things go through cycles, it happens. I'm sure things will get grim-darker in the future.

Though the RPG stuff is still plenty grimdark.

But DE Wyches ARE gang thugs on steroids..

I liked the older models for them too

I have a few of the old (tiny) daemonettes on steeds. The new daemonettes don't look nearly as good

I think it's becoming more and more hidden. For instance the art in this book:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440352a&prodId=prod1380072a

Lovely grim dark goodness. The codexes are getting more colorful and heroic. Black Library seems to keep the tone however.

Didn't we just have a thread a couple weeks ago about 40K getting too grimdark?

I think the trend started in the 90s, when GW started attempting to appeal to a broader base of customers. They had to PG-13 their stuff from R, and make it so moms did not freak out when their kids bought the books/models.

From a business model, it makes perfect sense. If your daemonettes are sporting breasts, christian conservative mommies are not going to want their 12 year old buying the miniatures.

The one thing i do miss a lot about the old necron codex vs the new necron codex... all of the old fluff/stories were written by guardsmen, captains, generals who saw what the necrons did. The necrons didn't write their own fluff, they were merely legends, almost ghosts in space that you were scared to ever meet.

I do appreciate they gave the necrons more fluff/character, but at the same time, keep them menacing

Cryage wrote:The one thing i do miss a lot about the old necron codex vs the new necron codex... all of the old fluff/stories were written by guardsmen, captains, generals who saw what the necrons did. The necrons didn't write their own fluff, they were merely legends, almost ghosts in space that you were scared to ever meet.

I do appreciate they gave the necrons more fluff/character, but at the same time, keep them menacing

I agree there. They didn't need to explicitly explain so much of the necron society. It should have been hinted at. They should have shown us research notes and eyewitness accounts, not actual information about them.

Look back to the early 90s... You'll find that 40k was a helluva lot brighter and comical than now.

its not surprising really, typically when economies are in decline and peoples day to day lives are looking a bit grim-dark they tend to want their escapist entertainment to be a bit more upbeat, and when times are booming like in the late 80's and 90's our entertainment tends to take on darker tones. if 40k is still around in the next decade I would expect things to swing back to more grim dark a bit more than it is now.

There's no point in the history of the game where it wasn't packed to the gills with silliness and jokes. For example, Orks.

Eiríkr wrote:Look back to the early 90s... You'll find that 40k was a helluva lot brighter and comical than now.

The book 'slaves to darkness' disagrees with that statement.

labmouse42 wrote:

Eiríkr wrote:Look back to the early 90s... You'll find that 40k was a helluva lot brighter and comical than now.

The book 'slaves to darkness' disagrees with that statement.

The books Freebooters, Waaaagh! The Orks, and 'Ere We Go, 'Ere We Go, agree though.

Cryage wrote:The one thing i do miss a lot about the old necron codex vs the new necron codex... all of the old fluff/stories were written by guardsmen, captains, generals who saw what the necrons did. The necrons didn't write their own fluff, they were merely legends, almost ghosts in space that you were scared to ever meet.

I do appreciate they gave the necrons more fluff/character, but at the same time, keep them menacing

Yes thats what I loved about the old necrons, you didn't know much about them. Their weapons were unknown, how they travel is unknown, what goes on in the cron tombworlds when they awake is all speculation and eye witness accounts, well the ones that managed to escape. There was no hope of survival, no art stealing or talking with them, if they got you you're dead. Ghosts of a tragic past, you didn't need to go into detail to get the dead feeling from them. All you needed was the dead stare and the slow zombie like walk to know you were in trouble, no motive was needed. They didnt need to dress up to say look at me im the leader or look im a bodyguard troop. The necrons were beyond human things like officer markings and such, there units were dangerous, if they needed a flying unit it wasn't all flash and style it was rip half a necron apart and stick it to a flyer, jobs done. Souless machine killers didn't need a fashion sense.

Like in the original Alien film, what made the alien ship and the pilot so bizzar and scary was the design and the fact that nothing was explained, it was very alien.

And the space marines used to be the bad ass holy warriors who would mess anyone up because they looked like a heretic. Now they openly chat up female imperial guard well if your in the space marine game.
But recently they have started to loose the edge, the stay out of their way because its dangerous to get close to a space marine feel, whats next guardsmen openly questioning a marines judgement? A space marine romancing with an eldar farseer...

Now we feel the need to explain away everything and leave it less to the imagination.

Eiríkr wrote:Look back to the early 90s... You'll find that 40k was a helluva lot brighter and comical than now.

Past models that are goofy to the max?
Goff Rockers.
I rest my case.

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:the Grey Knights are just damn bad. From legendary daemonhunters they became stereotypical knights and fanatics.

Could you elaborate on this a little? I don't see it.

Draigo. The Purifiers. Brotherhoods. And why in Heaven's Name would they need Librarians? They're all psykers!

If I want knights, I'll build a Dark Angels/Unforgiven army. If I have to build a GK army, I'm using Codex: Daemonhunters, and damn the new Codex.

DarknessEternal wrote:There's no point in the history of the game where it wasn't packed to the gills with silliness and jokes. For example, Orks.

Actually Orks are the peak of grimdark. They're the only ones who actually enjoy the in-universe situation of 40k.

Yes, the orks are silly. They're orks

They are also brutal green fungoid-enriched gorillas with attitude that want to fight and kill you for fun

THAT's grimdark

Ascalam wrote:Yes, the orks are silly. They're orks

They are also brutal green fungoid-enriched gorillas with attitude that want to fight and kill you for fun

THAT's grimdark

That's right, the deadliest comic relief in existence. Hope 'someone' doesn't mess up their Codex in the next Edition.

If they do i have about 20,000 pts of orks that will be going the way of my Necrons :(

I don't see them getting redone for a while yet though.

They'd better not...otherwise Mr. Ward's gonna have to deal with tons of complaint letters...I certainly hope he doesn't turn the Imperium into a twisted parody/joke of the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy.

Tadashi wrote:
Actually Orks are the peak of grimdark. They're the only ones who actually enjoy the in-universe situation of 40k.

Man, when you put it that way, they're REALLY dark aren't they?

Rented Tritium wrote:

Man, when you put it that way, they're REALLY dark aren't they?

Absolutely.

In the Imperium, humanity battles desperately across a million worlds for their very survival as a species. No sacrifice can be balked at, no extremes can be shunned, no hesitation can be tolerated and no dissension can be allowed; to fail means not only death but an eternity of torture as the playthings of unspeakable entities from the darkest hells.

For the Orks? This is how they PLAY. Total war against an enemy that will never surrender, retreat, ask or give quarter? Great entertainment! Brutal pit-fights, commonly ending in the death of one or both parties, to resolve minor disputes? Grab the popcorn, this is better than watching football! Building up a civilization, advancing technology peacefully, becoming wise and philosophical? BORRRRRING! Rather go split someone's head open with an axe, that's fun!

The Orks are the comic relief, yes. . . but that says something about the universe, not them. In any other setting, they'd be the Always Chaotic Evil race.

Tadashi wrote:They'd better not...otherwise Mr. Ward's gonna have to deal with tons of complaint letters...I certainly hope he doesn't turn the Imperium into a twisted parody/joke of the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy.

Hah but it would be funny to see a twisted parody/joke of a twisted parody/joke. And current IoM isnt too far removed from the Empire anyway. Plus the IoM has always seemed to be a medieval society... In SPAAAAAACE. Not saying I want this, i like my IoM how it is, but its not the worst choice out there.

I fail to see how Newcrons aren't intimidating/scary or whatever. Before there was simply no information on them, it was boring and lazy. They only gave the illusion of some deep, terrifying, Lovecrafian theme because the writers simply said so without really showing it. In reality the Necrons were just simple at best, they went around exterminating. We already have Tyranids for the-impossible-to-reason-with-and-destroys-all-life schtick.

Now they have impossible, deadly, technology that harnesses the powers of lightning, teleportation, dimensional rifts, and the like. They are still mostly souless, silent, unrelenting machines with a thing for flaying people alive now we can have that and some personality. Overall they still sound pretty gruesome to me. Also if you want spookiness read the Nightscythe entry it talks about abduction and the like.

They're less scary because now they're lacking the fear of the unknown. They've lost the H.P. Lovecraft effect; that which is mysterious and inexplicable is always more frightening than that which is clearly explained and has a comprehensible motivation.

Yeah I think the current necron would definitely be better if we knew less. I'm fine with the changes, they just should have gone into less detail and made it more mysterious.

Rented Tritium wrote:Yeah I think the current necron would definitely be better if we knew less. I'm fine with the changes, they just should have gone into less detail and made it more mysterious.

Quoted for truth. Mystery is good in terms of fluff, like the two lost Primarchs.

I suppose there's merit to those points. Personally as a Necron player I got bored of having zero attachment to my army other than looks. It's fun to think of motives, personality quirks, and so on for my Overlord and his legions.

Though I still don't think there was anything really unknown about the Necrons, or unknown in a way that would cause fear (perhaps to in-universe inhabitants). But nothing about them send shivers down my spine, they were simply the undead of 40k. I mean their motive was pretty clearly established and immutable, which I didn't like too much.

I do miss their unity though, they still seem to be about order, obedience, and law but I like my evil to be as united and organized as the good guys. Though to their credit of all the enemies of man they certianly are the most "lawful evil" so to speak.

asimo77 wrote:I fail to see how Newcrons aren't intimidating/scary or whatever. Before there was simply no information on them, it was boring and lazy. They only gave the illusion of some deep, terrifying, Lovecrafian theme because the writers simply said so without really showing it. In reality the Necrons were just simple at best, they went around exterminating. We already have Tyranids for the-impossible-to-reason-with-and-destroys-all-life schtick.

Now they have impossible, deadly, technology that harnesses the powers of lightning, teleportation, dimensional rifts, and the like. They are still mostly souless, silent, unrelenting machines with a thing for flaying people alive now we can have that and some personality. Overall they still sound pretty gruesome to me. Also if you want spookiness read the Nightscythe entry it talks about abduction and the like.

Necrons were fine the way they were: soulless constructs from ancient times, bent on draining the galaxy of life for their C'tan Masters. Back then, you couldn't reason with them, once they catch up with you it's over. Now, you can even make alliances with them. The feel of an ancient evil is ruined, they're too 'human' to be truly terrifying.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They'd better not...otherwise Mr. Ward's gonna have to deal with tons of complaint letters...I certainly hope he doesn't turn the Imperium into a twisted parody/joke of the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy.

Hah but it would be funny to see a twisted parody/joke of a twisted parody/joke. And current IoM isnt too far removed from the Empire anyway. Plus the IoM has always seemed to be a medieval society... In SPAAAAAACE. Not saying I want this, i like my IoM how it is, but its not the worst choice out there.

Not exactly medieval, more late 19th Century and early 20th Century (pre-WWI) Europe. But you're right, the Imperium is a twisted parody of human nature. It's just that I'm worried Mr. Ward might just ruin it's grimdark feel and turn it 'noblebright'.

Im not sure what Empire fluff youve read but the ones ive read was no where near noble bright. More black and grey morality.

Maybe I was exaggerating, but still, I prefer the Imperium's current monolithic (well, somewhat) and monotheistic form to the Empire's feudal and polytheistic form.

Yeah, the Empire is pretty much the Holy Roman Empire. Well in a fantastic setting. Thats one thing i liked, each area had a period of earth they based it off of, at least the human factions.

Necrons were fine the way they were: soulless constructs from ancient times, bent on draining the galaxy of life for their C'tan Masters. Back then, you couldn't reason with them, once they catch up with you it's over. Now, you can even make alliances with them. The feel of an ancient evil is ruined, they're too 'human' to be truly terrifying.

I would say there were some deep flaws with the Oldcrons. Namely being uninteresting, there was no way to make a unique army or put your own flair on on a Necron army without it contradicting the fluff. Also the only personailites were with the C'tan who should not be the star of a Necron army. More importantly Tyranids already fill the "terror that cannot be reasoned with" role. Now, Necrons fill a unique role in the universe: an enemy that fights by a code and is internally stable (at least within a dynasty, though fighting amongst dynasties is pointed out to be quite rare and all Necrons have the desire to reunite their empire and rule the galaxy as per the Silent King's last orders). They are "lawful evil" army in D&D terms.

Also being human doesn't really make them "un-terrifying", maybe somewhat less scary but only marginally so. If being human makes something unscary then Chaos, Dark Eldar, the IoM, and practically every sentient race isn't grimdark.

Somone said the codex are more heroic while the BL tends to still be dark. An idea. Everyone says Kids are GW main source of profit. Kids want heroism. Now they buy codexes but maybe not the BL because they dont bother.
So what if the dichtmy is actually intended.

asimo77 wrote:

Necrons were fine the way they were: soulless constructs from ancient times, bent on draining the galaxy of life for their C'tan Masters. Back then, you couldn't reason with them, once they catch up with you it's over. Now, you can even make alliances with them. The feel of an ancient evil is ruined, they're too 'human' to be truly terrifying.

I would say there were some deep flaws with the Oldcrons. Namely being uninteresting, there was no way to make a unique army or put your own flair on on a Necron army without it contradicting the fluff. Also the only personailites were with the C'tan who should not be the star of a Necron army. More importantly Tyranids already fill the "terror that cannot be reasoned with" role. Now, Necrons fill a unique role in the universe: an enemy that fights by a code and is internally stable (at least within a dynasty, though fighting amongst dynasties is pointed out to be quite rare and all Necrons have the desire to reunite their empire and rule the galaxy as per the Silent King's last orders). They are "lawful evil" army in D&D terms.

Also being human doesn't really make them "un-terrifying", maybe somewhat less scary but only marginally so. If being human makes something unscary then Chaos, Dark Eldar, the IoM, and practically every sentient race isn't grimdark.

I agree with all of this. I personally think the Necrons are a bigger threat to the galaxy, now than they were bever. Overlords like Imotekh, are actually going out, and conquering parts of the galaxy. Before, there were just small skirmishes and nothing lasting. I really did enjoy the rewrite of the fluff, much more than Codex: C'tan and servants.

I've really enjoyed all of the Necron Overlords fluff, especially Trazyn.

It's not like Necrons don't still have the weapons (More now even) and troops that were so terrfying for members of the Imperium to fight. I mean, Gauss weapons literately flay you apart! Necron warriors are still shown to be just as relentless and implacable as before, which is shown quite well in the Sands of Fordris story in the dex.

The Codex is also full of plenty of Grimdarkness. For example, Ghost Arks being used to drag unwilling civilians to have their souls fed to hungry Stargods, and entombed in an un-thinking automaton for the rest of eternity, is pretty grimdark if you ask me.

I prefer the "We are the Necrontyr. Surrender and die." thing they had before. They didn't have personality. They didn't need it. It was attitude and style that made the army. The C'tan were the personality. It should have been your enemy fearing the unending slog of Necrons towards his lines without thought, without malice. The art did so much for that army.

Surtur wrote:I prefer the "We are the Necrontyr. Surrender and die." thing they had before. They didn't have personality. They didn't need it. It was attitude and style that made the army. The C'tan were the personality. It should have been your enemy fearing the unending slog of Necrons towards his lines without thought, without malice. The art did so much for that army.

Bolding by me. I already play Tyranids, why do I want another army with almost the exact same personality? For the most part you just described how most of the Necron Army still functions. It's only the Nobility, and their Bodyguards who got the personality lift. Warriors are just as implacable and "We are Legion" as always, like in the Sand of Fordris story that I cited.

The Personality of the Royals really does add a lot more depth to the army, than the two star gods could ever give it.

A lot of people also seem to be hung up on Trazyn and his "art" collection... think those people should re-read his entry.

His "art" is artifacts and soldiers. The way I read it / interpreted it, he captured the Catachan and put them into stasis to add to his "collection" and when he sent over the Tesseract labyrinth's, i assumed he wanted to trap Valeria for being a pain in his ass.

I read that hyperscroll message with sincere sarcasm and crass from trazyn not "oh dear, thank you so much!"

The guy is a dick and wants to capture weapons of war for his own intrigue, it has nothing to do with fancy artwork. I love Trazyn, i think he is a true villain.

Huron Blackheart disagrees with this statement.

rockerbikie wrote:Huron Blackheart disagrees with this statement.

You seem to have misspelled Lucius the Eternal, friend.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:Huron Blackheart disagrees with this statement.

You seem to have misspelled Lucius the Eternal, friend.

I do believe that Huron is darker than Lucius, he get other Marines tortured severely until they join him. He loves torture.

Lucius isnt as scary. Just get a sniper thats a fanatic to kill him, then commit suicide. Unless he comes back as undead zombie Lucius.

But Chaos is the only grim dark part because thats the only way Chaos can be.

I miss this (latest codex's i see alot of possing characters but not much gory images.)



Their just not as scary, they used to be like the borg, one unified emotionless machine race, with advanced weapons. Now their more borg with willpower. Together they were one, resistance was futile.
I imagined clouds of dark green fog rolling in as silent machines stalked the streets like ghosts, picking people off, wraiths ripping anyones limbs off with no moral code or anything.
Now they all have lords wearing coats and been ecentric, some machines are just ment to be relentless evil. you couldn't really blame them for having selfish human motives for attacking a location or slaughtering its population as they were slaves to gods and that made you pitty the necrons too, they fell to the lies of adavnced creatures now they choose to go out and kill makes them just like any other race.

And i found the previous lords more scary, they commanded without a single word, they had a cold stare but were clearly different from other necrons although they never spoke or looked much different you could just tell there was somthing more sadistic and scary about them, the one you really try to avoid in battle.

I hear talk about the nids already having this down, yeah but how many other 40k races already have the quirky leader characers down with a system of order based on rank and rules. The necrons had a perfect ruling system already, its too human now, thats what made the necrons great, they wern't human, they worked in a way humans never could. Now they're just like any other 40k race, with factions territories and ranks.

and the vehicles, there too fancy. The necrons should have simple elegant machine forms, and what happened to the sleek silver metal, now its like green stone. I was hoping for the newcrons for more machine constructions like tomb spyders, maybe somthing like the sentinels from the matrix films, after all no other army can really do dangerous AI machines.


Also:



Wha...what is that supposed to be. -__- really looks like a corpse taking a piggyback ride on a necron.

When you are doing lovecraftian style horror, you are walking a very fine line. If you give little information, all it reads as is "Ok guys, this thing is totally scary, but you're going to have to trust me, because it was so scary, I cant describe it", and that is just lazy, or uninspired. And thats what the old necrons fluff read as to me. It just sounded like GW implemented them without thinking about what they wanted to do with them, and they simply floated around, being mysterious without having any mystery.

hotsauceman1 wrote:Somone said the codex are more heroic while the BL tends to still be dark. An idea. Everyone says Kids are GW main source of profit. Kids want heroism. Now they buy codexes but maybe not the BL because they dont bother.
So what if the dichtmy is actually intended.

I think that that's almost certainly what's going on. The problem is that it's counter-productive to be so full on in doing that: a good writer could inject more heroism into a Codex suavely, with subtlety, but leave some of the older vibe, myths and grimdark mysteries and subtexts in place for the older and more attentive readers. This preserves the older lore so doesn't rile up the older fans/customers, and gives the writers more options in the future - whilst still giving plenty of Awesome! to the kids.

Instead it's more, 'All that old lore was BS, and we'll retcon (therefore destroy, rather than preserve) everything such that the older fluff, novels, computer games and other licenses, and armies that folks have lovingly built are now all false. Not the old 'many interpretations, none of it's true, it's all true' thing but flat out false.'

Why do that to your own IP when you don't actually need to? It's like an arrogant and spoilt kid trashing his old stuff when he gets new stuff... it's all fun and games until he realises that one of the old things would have actually been useful or better, and he could have easily had both had he a scrap of maturity.

Tadashi: I wouldn't agree that the less grimdark started with the Tau: They added to the dark by juxtaposition - the light that makes the shadows even deeper. The setting was perfectly grimdark for a long while after their arrival.

rockerbikie wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

rockerbikie wrote:Huron Blackheart disagrees with this statement.

You seem to have misspelled Lucius the Eternal, friend.

I do believe that Huron is darker than Lucius, he get other Marines tortured severely until they join him. He loves torture.

A very nasty trait for a villain, it's gotta be said, but Huron's pretty much another power-hungry warlord, and power-hungry warlords using torture is a given. Hell, even Ghazghull does it. There are plenty like him in 40K.
Lucius, on the other hand, is proper sick. Lucius doesn't care about power, but deliberately seeks out the best in an opponent's army to fight them and prove his superiority; so far, pretty generic, I'll grant you.
However, it's the sadomasochism that makes him so fething creepy. The self-harm for pleasure and to taunt an opponent, the enjoyment of other people's pain through the lash that he uses? Yeah, he's downright psychopathic.

Lucius isnt as scary. Just get a sniper thats a fanatic to kill him, then commit suicide. Unless he comes back as undead zombie Lucius.

It's not how easily someone is to kill that makes them scary; it's their traits. Yeah, you can kill Lucius, good for you. You can also kill real-life serial killers, but it doesn't stop them being creepy fethers, does it? Besides, by those standards, Huron's even less scary, as you'd just need a regular assassin and not someone who was also willing to die themselves.

tsz52 wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Somone said the codex are more heroic while the BL tends to still be dark. An idea. Everyone says Kids are GW main source of profit. Kids want heroism. Now they buy codexes but maybe not the BL because they dont bother.
So what if the dichtmy is actually intended.

I think that that's almost certainly what's going on. The problem is that it's counter-productive to be so full on in doing that: a good writer could inject more heroism into a Codex suavely, with subtlety, but leave some of the older vibe, myths and grimdark mysteries and subtexts in place for the older and more attentive readers. This preserves the older lore so doesn't rile up the older fans/customers, and gives the writers more options in the future - whilst still giving plenty of Awesome! to the kids.
Instead it's more, 'All that old lore was BS, and we'll retcon (therefore destroy, rather than preserve) everything such that the older fluff, novels, computer games and other licenses, and armies that folks have lovingly built are now all false. Not the old 'many interpretations, none of it's true, it's all true' thing but flat out false.'
Why do that to your own IP when you don't actually need to? It's like an arrogant and spoilt kid trashing his old stuff when he gets new stuff... it's all fun and games until he realises that one of the old things would have actually been useful or better, and he could have easily had both had he a scrap of maturity.
Tadashi: I wouldn't agree that the less grimdark started with the Tau: They added to the dark by juxtaposition - the light that makes the shadows even deeper. The setting was perfectly grimdark for a long while after their arrival.

I agree ,............... specially in the part that GW is doing stuff for kids; they want individual heroism, cool characters and things they can easily link to what the "know"............ example; when I bought my newcron codex a bunch of kids bought it just before me,.....the first thing they looked where the special characters and was like; -"Look, this guy has hiper-logic!!! What??!!.....Yes, HIPER-logic,..not logic, HIPERLOGIC!!!...Cool!! Yeah!!- and the like..................

[newcron opinion/offtopic on]
For me it was a huge dissapointment,......because they killed what I liked most about necrons; The feeling of "hidden inexorable ever-living evil threat" to all life they posed to every one, so ancient that even the eldar only remembered them in "legends" only spoken once per century,........... Agreeed there were thing that fluff-wise ought to change; C'tan domination for one or the "too impersonal" for another, but please, was it necessary to have what we have now? Tomb kings in spaceeeee!!!........what a lack of imagination!........ They sold the soul of that army (what an irony ) to please the consumer.......... When (in my opinion) should be the consummer who chooses an army because the feeling* (we could debate to which point a company should please the demands of the customer, but its not my intention to debate this, yet ).

I absolutely would have done things differently,..............and probably better, or at least not as bad as they have done..................... but again, this may be a conversation to another post,.............

As they say an image is worth more than 1000 words so,...
From that;

That said; Our number is legion, our name...............death.
TO

That says; we are the newcrons,..............skin of steel, heart of fire!!!!!!
[newcron opinion/offtopic off]

Just fighting the old Crons in Dawn of War and on the tabletop had a feel of fighting unstoppable unknown fear, the way that they were meant to be. The sight of two units of warriors encroach upon your IG squad capturing an objective, marching impassively out of the Fog of War, while the Guard were losing moral with every flayer shot (DoW), or a solid warrior and lith phalanx relentlessly pushing toward your thin line of marines was truly sinister. Although it could be said that the Tyranids do a better job at being the unified, unknown and endless fighters of the 40K setting, I would disagree. The Nids and Crons don't really compete, as they're completely different. One has an essence of primeval fear about it (Nightbringer), with practically indestructable armies attacking without reason or rhyme. It is the Ancient Terror. The Nids on the other hand, have motives (Nom) that can be perceived by the young races, they are subject to scientific research and with each conflict are being understood. They aren't the unfathomable evil of the Necron, rather the Scientific Evil, the types of which can be seen in many stories involving Earth getting invaded by aliens.

What I find interesting is that as the tabletop has gotten less grim/dark (and I'll offer my opinion that this was done because GW realized they aren't actually selling to 12 year old boys with adolescent angst, they're selling to those 12 year old's parents) that the FFG games have become much more grim/dark (in particular, natch, Dark Heresy).

I'll be honest. I do miss the 2nd edition look-and-feel, and the little vignettes peppered through the books (not about any named character and not about battle or anything, pure atmospherics). I remember in one of the 2nd Edition books (I think it was the rule book, as opposed to the weapons book or the army list book) this pen and ink drawing from inside the steeple of an absurd, baroque Imperial Cathedral looking down on the the countless worshipers below like ants.

Of course, back then I was an angsty 12 year old who grew up watching Brazil and playing Paranoia. So maybe I'm just projecting/romanticizing it all.

But I do miss the oldcrons, not least for how they just retconned all of the Cain books into wrongfluff.




Wow, that was a lot of words, and I sound really old and beardy.

Just looking at the new cron cover ugh, its so...bright and full of colors, reds bright oranges yellows, can't they decide what colors they wanted. Its like some 80's sci fi cover or somthing. Simple and bold worked for necrons, bits and bobs sticking out everywhere makes them look just messy and incoherent. Like the writer and artists didn't know what they wanted so just threw lots of ideas together that they thought looked cool. Like the command barge, with the two crons sitting in the front with the eye pieces working on the controls. There machines, why would they even need buttons and controls when they can plug directly in. Why have an attachable eye piece when they can replace an eye with such equipment like the destroyers do.

New new necrons scream PG rated cartoon show aimed at 12 year olds. Give me a necron lord crushing the life out of a pirate trying to raid a tomb world anyday, one who didnt need a fancy metal cape and helmet to show everyone whos in charge.

The DE apparently copyrighted the colour green and sued the necrons for the IP infringement

Webway portals for example are suddenly emerald green fire, and the Necrons are all in bright summery shades?

They looked far cooler in dark metal, under a wash of green light.

To all those complaining about the new cron dex...you realize that you don't have to make them colorful and honorable and crap, right? There's enough background to support our favorite genocidal robots.
Hell, that's what I am doing. F k the royalty and the praetorians, Ima gonna make an army of deathmarks, ghost arks and destroyers and bring the red harvest like in the good ol' days.

That said, I do miss the psychological horror aspect. That didn't show up at all in the new dex.

That's because the writer wouldn't know subtlety if he was ambushed by it in a dark alley. I doubt he could have done it right if he'd tried to, so i'm rather glad he didn't, in a way.


*shrug* It's not my first favourite army that's been butchered, and it won't be the last.

Squats, Grey Knights, Necrons, Norscans, Fimir...

I am curious how they'll redo the BT though, since they've been popping up in the Necron fluff..

I think the universe got brighter after Matt Ward allowed the Blood Angels and Necrons to have a big group hug. =]

Ever since that magical moment..... It all just looks so much brighter in all the chaos and destruction.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Brighthammer_40,000_%282nd_edition%29

I'll just leave that here.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:To all those complaining about the new cron dex...you realize that you don't have to make them colorful and honorable and crap, right? There's enough background to support our favorite genocidal robots.
Hell, that's what I am doing. F k the royalty and the praetorians, Ima gonna make an army of deathmarks, ghost arks and destroyers and bring the red harvest like in the good ol' days.

Background as a necropolis world, not as the united race with a dark purpose they once where in the previous codex,.......... a patetic attempt from GW, if I may say,............

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That said, I do miss the psychological horror aspect. That didn't show up at all in the new dex.

Me too,....

Milisim wrote:
I think the universe got brighter after Matt Ward allowed the Blood Angels and Necrons to have a big group hug. =]
Ever since that magical moment..... It all just looks so much brighter in all the chaos and destruction.

Still trying to belive that this did not happen.................

I think a lot of people who miss the Oldcrons take their supposed Lovecraftian undertones for granted. The writers at GW simply said they were unfeeling, unknowable, unrelenting, and a whole lot of other un's. The problem is they told us that but didn't show us that. Instead, we had an army with one goal which was clearly spelt out and there was zero room for creativity, and hobbies revolve around creativity.

Tyranids are the same as Oldcrons, people say they aren't because Necrons represent things like "primordial fear" "Lovecraftian terror" and the like, but they never really did, we were just told to believe they did. The thing is we knew exactly what the C'tan wanted, we know the origins of Necrons, we know how the War in Heaven went down. All the things that we shouldn't know in order to make something Lovecraftian were known. The things that were unkown, like their hierarchy, society, etc, is what makes makes an an army interesting but we had no information on that.

Oldcrons would have been better if we had almost no information on the Necrontyr->Necron transformation, or if the C'tan's motives were completley nebulous or capricious. Tyranids do a much better job at being an unkown horror and Lovecraftian, just look at their origin story...it's a mystery. Also the idea that the strongest force in the universe cares not for morals, feelings, mercy, etc; they just want to devour is quite Lovecraftian.

Also I want to throw out there that C'tan IMO are more Lovecraftian in the new book. There's a line in the dex that says that the C'tan could not be fully destroyed because they are fundamental to this universe like time, space, mathematics, gravity, and whatever else. To suggest a fundamental force of the universe is inherently evil is pretty damn Lovecraftian.

Lovecraftian....man I typed that word a lot.

They were subtle. A lot of people don't seem to pick up on subtle horror, though.

If you have to be told 'these are bad heeby jeebie overtones' then it's not properly horrific Slasher movies aren't the same kind of horror as psych-horror. Psychological horror is usually far more scary.

Lovecraftian may not be quite the right word, as his writings generally fit better with Chaos and Nids (Tentacles...) , but subtle 'horror from the dawn of time, permeating everything you think is safe' style horror is usually termed 'lovecraftian' because he was the best known writer for that style.

Read the old dex, specifically the little stories and inserts. Put what's hinted at and not said outright together. Then think of the result for the Imperium, and how little is actually known of the oldcrons. Psychological horror is at it's best when all you get is hints and whispers, and don't know everything about what's hunting you, how or why.

The new dex lays them out as pretty well known threats, even trading insults back and forth, warrign amongst themselves over honor etc. There is no horror aspect.
It's more like a soap opera, though with a little potential for dark and grim.

If you didn't get the vibe from the old dex, so be it. A lot of us did, and not all of us appreciate the rewrite, even if there is a world where Necrons still act like automata.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would have preferred more fluff on the Crons in the same vein int he old dex, and less on the Ctan, as the War In Heaven stuff could have been better couched as excerpts from old Eldar legend and translations from dead race's monuments etc, but it as as it is. Factual descriptions then to dispel the horror feel a little.

tsz52 wrote:Instead it's more, 'All that old lore was BS, and we'll retcon (therefore destroy, rather than preserve) everything such that the older fluff, novels, computer games and other licenses, and armies that folks have lovingly built are now all false. Not the old 'many interpretations, none of it's true, it's all true' thing but flat out false.'

Like what?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:That said, I do miss the psychological horror aspect. That didn't show up at all in the new dex.

It didn't show up in the old dex.

asimo77 wrote:I think a lot of people who miss the Oldcrons take their supposed Lovecraftian undertones for granted. The writers at GW simply said they were unfeeling, unknowable, unrelenting, and a whole lot of other un's. The problem is they told us that but didn't show us that...

All the things that we shouldn't know in order to make something Lovecraftian were known. The things that were unkown, like their hierarchy, society, etc, is what makes makes an an army interesting but we had no information on that

This exactly. When people start describing how much better the old Necrons were, all I hear is them describing the Tyranids.

Ascalam wrote:Lovecraftian may not be quite the right word, as his writings generally fit better with Chaos and Nids (Tentacles...) , but subtle 'horror from the dawn of time, permeating everything you think is safe' style horror is usually termed 'lovecraftian' because he was the best known writer for that style.

That's how I perceive it as well. In my opinion, 'nids are too much "mindless animal" and Chaos is too "loud" to qualify, but Necrons, on the other hand ...

(just as an addendum: for me, 'nids and Chaos would qualify if we go into stuff like Genestealer infiltration or hidden Chaos cults, but not how these forces are commonly represented on the TT)

Ascalam wrote:
They were subtle. A lot of people don't seem to pick up on subtle horror, though.
If you have to be told 'these are bad heeby jeebie overtones' then it's not properly horrific Slasher movies aren't the same kind of horror as psych-horror. Psychological horror is usually far more scary.

True,...........I absolutely agree with you,........... is far worse what you imagine can be there than what they show you directly,............take the first alien movie for example or the birds from hitchcock.....................horror is not always a madman with an axe,...........

Ascalam wrote:
Lovecraftian may not be quite the right word, as his writings generally fit better with Chaos and Nids (Tentacles...) , but subtle 'horror from the dawn of time, permeating everything you think is safe' style horror is usually termed 'lovecraftian' because he was the best known writer for that style.

I must admit I have not read him yet,.........

Ascalam wrote:
Read the old dex, specifically the little stories and inserts. Put what's hinted at and not said outright together. Then think of the result for the Imperium, and how little is actually known of the oldcrons. Psychological horror is at it's best when all you get is hints and whispers, and don't know everything about what's hunting you, how or why.

Exactly what I loved the best of the old book was precisly that the little you know of necrons was from second-hand, rumors, whispers and dark profecies.............leaving to you to fill the gaps with your own (wild) teories,...............that was far more fluff-rewarding for me,.............although I admit there were some thing that ought to change; but they changed it badly,.....................again in my opinion.............

Ascalam wrote:
The new dex lays them out as pretty well known threats, even trading insults back and forth, warrign amongst themselves over honor etc. There is no horror aspect.
It's more like a soap opera, though with a little potential for dark and grim.

No coment,..........

Ascalam wrote:
If you didn't get the vibe from the old dex, so be it. A lot of us did, and not all of us appreciate the rewrite, even if there is a world where Necrons still act like automata.

Well there where some things that ought to change,............and not everything is bad in the new fluff,........for instance I liked when they turned against the c'tan and "broke" them into pieces they after enslave,.............

Lynata wrote:
That's how I perceive it as well. In my opinion, 'nids are too much "mindless animal" and Chaos is too "loud" to qualify, but Necrons, on the other hand ...

Agreed,.....I think that they try to minimise the fluff threads to the imperium,......... I mean when you read the 4ed nids codex you (at least me) got the vibe that the hive-mind controled all the fleets, with a purpose, and objective, werever........now they are "animals". Eldar were a manipulative race willing to sacrifice hundreads of human to save one of their own..............now a dying race hanging on the blink of extintion, traped in "noble" belifs, (at least that's the feeling I got from them)............ Chaos, always turns upon himself,......by the way someone should do something with Abbadon, man, 13 times trying and still noting, chaos gods sure are way patient!!........and so go on with the threats to the imperium,.........

DarknessEternal wrote:There's no point in the history of the game where it wasn't packed to the gills with silliness and jokes. For example, Orks.

Look like others have already done justice here for us greenskins but actually i thin chaos and orks have been getting an up0sizing of Grimdark as opposed to our earlier stages of comic relief and corny plot lines. In other words all your grim dark is getting filtered over to "Da baddest boyz around"

*sets up a table called Da baddest boyz around club*

Only Chaos, Dark Eldar, Nids and Orks allowed... (no girlz)

Ok let's assume that the supposed subtle horror did in fact exist in the old codex, you guys do realize that pretty much all of that, with a few exceptions, is still intact?

Take the book "Xenology" which is a good example of the kind of oldstyle Necron horror you guys are talking about, there's no reason for any of that to be invalid with the new codex.

It could be possible that the new codex focusses more on royalty and the Necrontyr tragedy than horror (though Szeras and the Nightscythe entries are pretty spooky) that doesn't mean that the old stuff is gone. Also if you want unsettling then the recurring themes of madness and insanity, as seen in the Flayer and Destroyer viruses, are unnerving enough I think.

In fact I think the major theme of the new codex is to outline how tragic the Necrons really are, the Ghost Ark entry specifically sent that message across well. So while this book's themes are madness, tragedy, royalty, and hierarchy that doesn't mean the old horror stuff is gone, assuming it ever really existed in the first place. I'd argue it really didn't except for in a few instances like "Xenology"...which still meshes perfectly with the update.

They aren't trying to target children with the New codexes, the Grim Dark Future becomes Less dark then Darker in periods. If they were trying to market to adults Space Marines would look like: but in sexy power armour.

DarknessEternal wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:

Eiríkr wrote:Look back to the early 90s... You'll find that 40k was a helluva lot brighter and comical than now.

The book 'slaves to darkness' disagrees with that statement.

The books Freebooters, Waaaagh! The Orks, and 'Ere We Go, 'Ere We Go, agree though.

That's irrelevant. Orks are the goofy army of 40k. Using the silly ork codex as your basis of an arguement is invalid.

labmouse42 wrote:That's irrelevant. Orks are the goofy army of 40k. Using the silly ork codex as your basis of an arguement is invalid.

It is not an acceptable practice of debate to ignore evidence that directly refutes your point.

labmouse42 wrote:That's irrelevant. Orks are the goofy army of 40k. Using the silly ork codex as your basis of an arguement is invalid.

Personally, I think "Look at those goofy Orks, 40k is such a silly game" is the strongest possible point that can be made about how dark the setting is. Even at their very goofiest, back in 2nd Edition, the Orks were ALWAYS rabidly homicidal, slave-holding, torture-loving psychopaths who thought that a gruesome death was the height of hilarity and committed mass murder for fun. Nowadays they're even darker. As I posted back on the second page;

BeRzErKeR wrote:In the Imperium, humanity battles desperately across a million worlds for their very survival as a species. No sacrifice can be balked at, no extremes can be shunned, no hesitation can be tolerated and no dissension can be allowed; to fail means not only death but an eternity of torture as the playthings of unspeakable entities from the darkest hells.

For the Orks? This is how they PLAY. Total war against an enemy that will never surrender, retreat, ask or give quarter? Great entertainment! Brutal pit-fights, commonly ending in the death of one or both parties, to resolve minor disputes? Grab the popcorn, this is better than watching football! Building up a civilization, advancing technology peacefully, becoming wise and philosophical? BORRRRRING! Rather go split someone's head open with an axe, that's fun!

The Orks are the comic relief, yes. . . but that says something about the universe, not them. In any other setting, they'd be the Always Chaotic Evil race.

I would say that the IMPERIUM has gotten a bit less grimdark (well, in patches, anyway); GW seems to be setting the Imperium up as slightly more heroic, so it's more charcoal grey vs. black morality rather than just a battle between unremitting evils. The Necrons seem to have received a little of the same treatment. But, uh. . . it's still, by far, the darkest and most horrifying fictional universe I've ever heard of. Compare it to, say, Forgotten Realms; what's the race that most closely resembles the Imperium? I think it's the Drow, except the Drow aren't quite merciless and amoral enough.

I just think they could have done better and been more respectful to the necrons with the new range and codex.
We have way too much info on armies i think, leaves little to the imagination. Thats what i liked about necrons i could think up cool scenarios and situations and have nobody say to me well thats not how they work, read the codex look at this section and this section, they totally disagree with you.

The mystery of the 40k universe is been slowly explained all away. They should stop trying to describe everything away about the armies they re release. Its never some mysterious creature apears on some planet then some survay group get dispatched and the story goes all aliens on them. Its now like oh look a creature its a deamon, dispatch GK jobs done.

The 40k universe is only populated by things already explained now, i liked the old codexes where they talked of mysterious fleets of aliens ships that disapeared many years ago. Strange transmitions from dead worlds, things that have not yet been explained (but im sure they will)

I also enjoyed the feeling that the necrons wernt all shiney and new looking, they were old. Beyond ancient old with weapons so old and powerful nobody knew what the hell they were. I loved it when they were painted like rust.

DarknessEternal wrote:It is not an acceptable practice of debate to ignore evidence that directly refutes your point.

I did not ignore you point. I described it as irrelevant. Let me illustrate.

Labmouse42 Argument
40k was more dark in the 90s than it is today

Supporting Evidence
Slaves to Darkness is much darker than any books released today.

DarknessEternal Counter Evidence
Ere' We Go was goofy in the 90s.

Reason Counter Evidence is Irrelevant.
Orks are still goofy today. As chaos is less dark, and orks remained the same darkness, the overall level of darkness decreased in the 40k universe.
Imagine it like paint pots. If chaos went form chaos black to shadow grey, and orks remained at space wolves grey, the entire shade would be lighter today.
To disprove my point you would need to prove that the Chaos has not decreased in darkness, or prove that other codex's have become much lighter.

Example.
To give an example of the darkness of Slaves to Darkness for those people who do not have access to it, I have scanned an image from that book.
This is not for you DarknessEternal, but for those others reading this. Please note the daemonette drinking the blood at the bottom left side of the image.
Enjoy!!!!

Now, why don't we have stuff like that anymore?
If that was made like today, it would be friggen bad ass.

...Thats what i liked about necrons i could think up cool scenarios and situations and have nobody say to me well thats not how they work, read the codex look at this section and this section, they totally disagree with you.

The Oldcrons were the opposite, it was pretty much impossible to come up for fluffy reasons for why a Necron army would do anything besides exterminate life and serve the C'tan.

I also enjoyed the feeling that the necrons wernt all shiney and new looking, they were old. Beyond ancient old with weapons so old and powerful nobody knew what the hell they were. I loved it when they were painted like rust.

Nothing in the new codex suggests all necrons are new and shiney looking. You can paint them however you want and rust is still a major motif. If anything their weaponry and appearance seems more ancient and eldritch now with all the wacky, science-breaking, reality-bending Cryptek gear. Also the Tomb Kings flair, as seen in the Lychguard and Overlord garb, makes them seem more ancient. Their dress harkens back to some long forgotten civilization. Egypt is a good civilization to ape aesthetically if you want to get across ancientness. Before they seemed more machine and artificial than anything else.

Imperium: Less dark overall. SM's are far more heroic/noble mostly.

Chaos: CSM are less God-worshiping fanatics and more brigands/raiders. Daemons are more vicious beasts rather then sadistic Lovecraftian entities, Heretics and Cultists are rarely delved into for them to be given any personality. Chaos has certainly become less dark.

Eldar: Actually I think they're a little darker then they used to be. They're more brutal, vicious, and genocidal then they used to be, with the peaceful Space Elves undertones overshadowed by this.

DE: Pretty much have stayed the same in GRIMDARK levels, though the 5th Ed Codex improved their overall fluff massively.

Orks: Are much darker then they used to be. Go and read Waaagh da Orks or Ere We Go for how utterly goofy and lighthearted the Orks used to be. While they still have comic undertones, their brutal/warmongering/anarchic edge has been emphasized far more.

Necrons: Definitely much, much lighter toned now. Ward gave them a noble/honorable undertones and threw away the Vampire Counts feel for the Tomb Kings Feel. Overall I think this was from Ward's inability to write evil, everything needs to be courageous for him.

Tau: While the 4th Ed Codex emphasized some darker practices absent in the 3rd (aka mind control and a more imperialist angle) they're still a shining light in the galaxy's grimdark.

Tyranids: Have gotten darker, mostly because the 5th Ed Codex emphasized that what we've encountered so far is just a small segment of the Tyranid race.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Now, why don't we have stuff like that anymore?
If that was made like today, it would be friggen bad ass.

My guess is because it would send over-protective mothers into a seizure.

Harriticus wrote:
Tau: While the 4th Ed Codex emphasized some darker practices absent in the 3rd (aka mind control and a more imperialist angle) they're still a shining light in the galaxy's grimdark.

I posit that the light on the outside, dark on the inside of the Tau is just as dark as the dark on the outside, light on the inside of a lot of imperials.

Harriticus wrote:Imperium: Less dark overall. SM's are far more heroic/noble mostly.

Chaos: CSM are less God-worshiping fanatics and more brigands/raiders. Daemons are more vicious beasts rather then sadistic Lovecraftian entities, Heretics and Cultists are rarely delved into for them to be given any personality. Chaos has certainly become less dark.

Eldar: Actually I think they're a little darker then they used to be. They're more brutal, vicious, and genocidal then they used to be, with the peaceful Space Elves undertones overshadowed by this.

DE: Pretty much have stayed the same in GRIMDARK levels, though the 5th Ed Codex improved their overall fluff massively.

Orks: Are much darker then they used to be. Go and read Waaagh da Orks or Ere We Go for how utterly goofy and lighthearted the Orks used to be. While they still have comic undertones, their brutal/warmongering/anarchic edge has been emphasized far more.

Necrons: Definitely much, much lighter toned now. Ward gave them a noble/honorable undertones and threw away the Vampire Counts feel for the Tomb Kings Feel. Overall I think this was from Ward's inability to write evil, everything needs to be courageous for him.

Tau: While the 4th Ed Codex emphasized some darker practices absent in the 3rd (aka mind control and a more imperialist angle) they're still a shining light in the galaxy's grimdark.

Tyranids: Have gotten darker, mostly because the 5th Ed Codex emphasized that what we've encountered so far is just a small segment of the Tyranid race.

Thats a very well thought-out analysis.

I mean even the gamesworkshop website sounds like its aimed at 12 year olds or somthing.

Trazyn description on the page:

If you're after a virtually invinsible (and slightly insane) character to lead your necrons to war then look no further than Trazyn.
With his ability to ressurect himself multiple times, he'll have your opponents gnashing their teeth in fustration.

And theannihilation barge

An annihilation barge is pretty cool (word young ens) but then so is a personal transport for your necron lord.

I expected the tag line, collect them all after.

The thing im most disapointed in is the range size, the have some new elite choices yet are all the same size, they should atleast be space marine terminator size models like for the immortals.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Now, why don't we have stuff like that anymore?
If that was made like today, it would be friggen bad ass.

Because we have a thread in the background section crying about how inappropriate it was for a Chaos marine to even think about flaying children alive in Battle of the Fang (note, no flaying of children took place in the book).

People today are the problem, not the setting.

DarknessEternal wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Now, why don't we have stuff like that anymore?
If that was made like today, it would be friggen bad ass.

Because we have a thread in the background section crying about how inappropriate it was for a Chaos marine to even think about flaying children alive in Battle of the Fang (note, no flaying of children took place in the book).

People today are the problem, not the setting.

Oh yeah, I actually read that one.
Very silly to whine about imo. Its a setting where billions die every day, and where humans are forced to fight the most nightmarish creatures possible. Of course there are going to be shocking imagery. That's the bloody point

DarknessEternal wrote:People today are the problem, not the setting.

+1 to this.

Chaos is evil. (being defined as the intentional, malicious cause of pain on others)
Flaying a child alive would be par for the course for many champions.

labmouse42 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:People today are the problem, not the setting.

+1 to this.

Chaos is evil. (being defined as the intentional, malicious cause of pain on others)
Flaying a child alive would be par for the course for many champions.

No no no, flaying a child, torturing him with dark magic, and then breaking him into serving the dark gods/ consuming his soul/ feeding his soul to a demon...you get the point...THAT would be menial and banal task to any CSM grunt. Not important, just a quick diversion from boredom. That is the type of sociopathic insanity that I would expect from them. At the moment, CSM appear to be tamer than Dark Spesse elves. And that's not good.

As 'bad' as the newcron codex may be (or otherwise, I have yet to read it), I can't help but feel folks are looking back on the Oldcrons with just a hint of rose-tinted glasses.
I read the oldcron codex. Back to front. And you know what? It was boring. Utterly boring. Everyone I knew thought so at the time, and this is why we never saw any Cron armies being brought to the table. Sure, they might have been going for a "Lovecraftian" feel, but they failed. Lovecraft feels nothing like the Oldcron codex to read; where his stuff was dark, weird, and actually used direct description to highlight what we didn't know about his entities, GW settled for "we're not going to tell you all that much, ooooh, how spooky," and assumed it would do the job.

Now, some people will not agree with me there, and that's fine. Hell, I could be spouting nonsense like a fire hose, but that's just a risk I take when I post on the internet. However, in the rush to find fault with Ward's codexes, and give unfavourable comparisons to their predecessors, we may be overlooking the considerable flaws those older codexes actually had.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:As 'bad' as the newcron codex may be (or otherwise, I have yet to read it), I can't help but feel folks are looking back on the Oldcrons with just a hint of rose-tinted glasses.
I read the oldcron codex. Back to front. And you know what? It was boring. Utterly boring. Everyone I knew thought so at the time, and this is why we never saw any Cron armies being brought to the table. Sure, they might have been going for a "Lovecraftian" feel, but they failed. Lovecraft feels nothing like the Oldcron codex to read; where his stuff was dark, weird, and actually used direct description to highlight what we didn't know about his entities, GW settled for "we're not going to tell you all that much, ooooh, how spooky," and assumed it would do the job.

Now, some people will not agree with me there, and that's fine. Hell, I could be spouting nonsense like a fire hose, but that's just a risk I take when I post on the internet. However, in the rush to find fault with Ward's codexes, and give unfavourable comparisons to their predecessors, we may be overlooking the considerable flaws those older codexes actually had.

Actually, I found that story about the techpriest who went insane in the olddex to be pretty good. Of course, I did read it like 7 years ago. Xenology on the other hand, that was brilliant.
But yeah, I do agree that the old crons where a bit bland.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Sure, they might have been going for a "Lovecraftian" feel, but they failed. Lovecraft feels nothing like the Oldcron codex to read; where his stuff was dark, weird, and actually used direct description to highlight what we didn't know about his entities, GW settled for "we're not going to tell you all that much, ooooh, how spooky," and assumed it would do the job.

Uh, maybe you're thinking of a different author.

"It's so spooky that I can't describe it" is the basis of Lovecraft's work.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Sure, they might have been going for a "Lovecraftian" feel, but they failed. Lovecraft feels nothing like the Oldcron codex to read; where his stuff was dark, weird, and actually used direct description to highlight what we didn't know about his entities, GW settled for "we're not going to tell you all that much, ooooh, how spooky," and assumed it would do the job.

Uh, maybe you're thinking of a different author.

"It's so spooky that I can't describe it" is the basis of Lovecraft's work.

True, but the characters in his books did try to give some descriptions of what they saw. Of course, what they saw was so bizarre and alien that it just came off as weird and unsettling, which was the point
SEE : Dunwich Horror, Whately's brother.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Sure, they might have been going for a "Lovecraftian" feel, but they failed. Lovecraft feels nothing like the Oldcron codex to read; where his stuff was dark, weird, and actually used direct description to highlight what we didn't know about his entities, GW settled for "we're not going to tell you all that much, ooooh, how spooky," and assumed it would do the job.

Uh, maybe you're thinking of a different author.

"It's so spooky that I can't describe it" is the basis of Lovecraft's work.

Nope, definitely Lovecraft. The description he gives of the Fungi of Yuggoth, for example, the description of the Fishmen that appear in "The Shadow over Innsmouth," the descriptions of good ol' Cthulhu himself, and of course the description (yes, he describes it) of the Shoggoth in "At The Mountains of Madness."
Trust me, I've read them. I remember these things.
I think the confusion is occuring between the idea that Lovecraft gave scattered, disjointed descriptions, such as a terrified person might give, and the idea that he never described anything.


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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Xenology on the other hand, that was brilliant.

Actually, I agree. Xenology was fantastically written, and was much better at conveying some sort of Lovecraftian feel to the Crons than the codex ever was, and it even had a Necron Lord in it with a personality, albeit a rather cruel one.

Kaldor wrote:

tsz52 wrote:Instead it's more, 'All that old lore was BS, and we'll retcon (therefore destroy, rather than preserve) everything such that the older fluff, novels, computer games and other licenses, and armies that folks have lovingly built are now all false. Not the old 'many interpretations, none of it's true, it's all true' thing but flat out false.'

Like what?

Well, now I'm in the tricky position of wanting to answer a question asked in good faith, but if I answered it fully I'd be perceived as the most muck-raking, ****-stirring, dead-horse-flogging troll of all time.

I'd ask you to look back over all of the 'Oh no, not this again!' threads of controversy and vitriol in recent memory (the ones that tend to get locked), paying attention to such things as the: 'Eldar players/fans whining again'; 'Space Marine haters whining again'; 'Necron players/fans whining again'; 'Daemon Hunters players/fans whining again'; 'Witch Hunters* players/fans whining again'; 'SoB players/fans whining again'; 'Fans of the (non-Astartes) Imperial Institutions (like the Inquisition) whining again'; 'Chaos players/fans whining again'... threads.

There's a bit of a gestalt there that you can't have missed, and it can't all be dismissed as incorrect or whining. And those are just the ones that I've paid particular attention to, given my particular interests.

There were plenty of previous facts and stories (and army builds) now rendered both absolutely false and impossible; and old mysteries and hints now answered (that will take another ham-fisted retcon to remedy) in a way that contradicts the previous lore and vibe. Don't forget that this isn't just confined to the current 40k TT but spreads out to every other 40k based game (BFG has been properly mashed up by all these retcons), novel (Cain vs Oldcrons, and a big list of others) and license (something that GW should really be a bit less arrogant about, since it isn't the powerful PLC that it likes to strut about as, compared to some of these licensee corporations).

For the sake of harmony and tedious-repetition-reduction, I would urge you to take the above as a rough guide and answer your own question.

*As a single example of difference in approach between then and now:-

Then: In C:WH the SoB are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus. Clutching your beautiful 2nd Ed C:SoB to your bosom you had every right and ability to say, "Not in my personal 40k they're not, bud, thanks!" and build an Ecclesiarchy army instead, or a pure SoB army, or have whatever as allies of an Imperial army. But you've received an extra option and none of the previous ones and facts had been removed or destroyed. There was no rug-pulling or leaving you stranded with a chosen and beloved army that you can no longer use, going, "WTF?!!!"

Now: GK are now the Chamber Militant for the whole Inquisition: All previous BL coffee table books, novels, army builds, games of Inquisitor that you may have played, and Codices etc that say anything otherwise are now false! It destroys more than it adds. Bad for the customers, bad for GW's most precious asset (its IP).

It's like wanting to add a rose to your garden. The old way (once the setting had matured and stabilised around 3rd Ed) involved tip-toeing with finesse until you found a suitable spot then plant the rose with care to amplify the beauty of the garden as a whole; the new way is to get an oafish imbecile to dig up and trample everything already existing and slap the gaudy new flower in the ground... but the idiot grabbed a briefly-flowering weed to plant rather than the rose.

Both self-defeating and unsustainable. And very avoidable, since it's entirely possible for a skilled writer who cares to add barrel-loads of Heroic Awesome! without destroying anything else.