I've read somewhere on this forum that a guardsmen may never see a SM. If that is the case, then wouldn't an imperial citizen, who would never have left his world or city, be able to tell the difference between traitors and loyalists? They would not have the same training as the IG in dealing with enemies of humanity, so would it be possible for a CSM to pose as a loyalist marine and get civilians to work for him?
I really doubt it, unless the world is a Space Marine homeworld. To the average Imperial, the Astartes are the things are legend and though they are common "knowledge" they are surrounded in mystery and lore. Few Imperials ever lay eyes on an Astartes, those who do often find them terrifying, and they're not going to know the ascetic differences between the two factions.
A baby with no concept of life could tell a traitor marine from a regular marine.
Traitor: *all decked out in spikes* HHAHAHAHAHAA!! SANITY IS FOR THE WEAK!!!!!
Loyal: *candy-coloured and noble* Purge the enemies of man
Citizen: *looking between them and scratching his chin* Hmmmm....
One big give away is whether they are covered in purity seals and aquilas or mutations and foul chaos symbols. I think even a citizen could work that one out.
Dunwich wrote:One big give away is whether they are covered in purity seals and aquilas or mutations and foul chaos symbols. I think even a citizen could work that one out.
This.
A lot of Chaos Marines also seem to have an issue with their temper. Dunno if they could keep their mouth shut when faced with statues of Imperial Saints or greeted with "Praise the Emperor" by the people. Might just be something affecting the "older" CSMs tho, probably depends a lot on how much their sanity was corrupted over the years.
Harriticus wrote:Few Imperials ever lay eyes on an Astartes, [...]
Whilst that is certainly true, I think they might play a big role in propaganda. They are, after all, the Emperor's Angels of Death and His spiritual children. Statues or stylized images in various books could give the citizenry enough material to draw a comparison from.
On the other hand, it could just as well be that the Ecclesiarchy - often the only source of such knowledge for the common people - is actively attempting to downplay the Marines' roles in the Imperium due to the strained relationship between both Adepta ...
I think it really depends on the chapter and on the specific marines. Even if most imperial citizens don't know the nature of chaos and traitor marines, I'm sure they would recognize loyal SM by all the symbols they carry. (I assume all the imperial symbols are pretty much known to everybody in the Imperium). And to recognize a chaos marines shouldn't be too hard since they constantly yell "Death to da false emparaaaaaah!". That and maybe the citizens know some chaos-y stuff and go "that can't be good". ... Oh and IIRC there was some mentioning in some of the Gaunt's Ghosts books that looking at some chaos symbols and hearing certain chaos words makes people feel really uncomfortable so that might help.
In the end, I think if it's an Ultramarine who shines with fluffy goodness people will understand and if a Word Bearer stands in front of them hollering about chaos they will know what's up. If an imperial citizen finds himself in front of a World Eaters Berserker and a Blood Angel, then he'd better run very very very fast.
There have been multiple cases of Chaos Marines(particularly Alpha Legion or Fallen Dark Angels) who will take advantage of the regular Imperial people not knowing the Traitors exist.
If they were attacking, yeah they could tell the difference, but if they just walked up and said "Hi, my name is Xenox of the, uuuh, 'Alpha marines' and we could use some supplies" they would take them at their word.
Most Imperial citizens probably know that the mark of chaos is their enemy.
That said, any renegade or traitor that spent 5 minutes covering up all his chaos iconography would probably have zero problems convincing the average Imperial that he was loyalist.
No, the Imperium doesn't show its citizens what Chaos looks like. They don't know what the symbols are because that very knowledge can lead to corruption.
yeah, I'm pretty sure in the daemonhunter's codex in mentions that the average human has no idea chaos even exists, so I doubt they'd think of him as anything other than a scary space marine. and since space marines in general are pretty scary to the average human, I doubt they'd realize anything foul was afoot.
The fluff is full of examples of how Chaos is kept secret. In the Battle for Armageddon; any Imperials who even thought they saw the forces of Chaos were killed, and even the SM's mind wiped.
The Alpha Legion still uses "For the Emperor" as their battle cry to cause confusion, and to make the Imperials think they've been betrayed.
In the book "Tales from the Dark Millennium" a Chaos Cult infects a planet, and the Arbites, and population have no idea it's Chaos, even after seeing the star logo. The IG only finds out its Chaos when the DA show up, and inform them.
Bunch of screaming, fanged, blood-crazed guys in gore and black armour, with a rotary-saw blade symbol and blood drop on the shoulder disembark, followed by a more ornately armoured guy with a chainsaw longer than a truck...
Civilian's first thought is not going to be 'our saviors have landed' so much as 'you know, the orks are a good deal less scary. I'm out of here....'
I think it's got to vary by which group of traitors/renegades you're talking about and what chapter. As has been pointed out, Fleshtearers, Blood Drinkers, and a lot of the BA and some (probably) Wolf successor chapters may be mistakable for CSM even by Commisar trainees in the IG. AL, Iron Warriors, and probably no small number of Sorcerors from a lot of war bands can probably pass as loyalists pretty readily and are smart and tempered enough to not spout off to break their own disguise. Then there are the weird renegades, like the Fallen, who may not even WEAR chaos markings, just archaic power armor that may or may not have their acquilla removed (they may not have had them in the first place anyway) and even Cypher still has the basic appearance of a DA in really old armor.
However, it's discussed all through the fluff that the Inquisition doesn't allow the citizenry to know that chaos exists, and certainly not that any of the Emperor's Angels of Death have fallen to it and turned on the IoM. Novels discuss entire IG units being wiped or even annihilated to keep that secret, and IIRC the current rule book mentions it as well.
ashrog wrote:Imperial citizen #1: Do you know the difference between a loyal marine and a traitor marine?
Imperial citizen #2: Sure! One is a bloodthirsty killing machine, covered in skulls and symbols of death. And the other is the traitor marine.
WIN. This is definitely going in my signature.
If the traitors aren't mutated, it may be hard to tell. What would give them away is spikes, mutations, or demeanor. Astartes tend to have a high and mighty attitude, so this would help hide them. Alpha legion would blend in no problem, Fallen no problem (unless the citizen has seen a DA before, as IIRC fallen still have the original legion paint scheme), iron warriors maybe, World eaters, emperor's children, and thousand sons no way, probably not, and with sorcery. The thousand sons have the advantage of having rubric marines and sorcery. Rubrics are souless, and people are probably not going to be surprised if a space marine ignores them.
Night lords would probably not bother walking in plain sight, just killing people sneakily to cause terror. The reason I feel that chaos marines other than the alpha legion, Fallen, and a few others will have trouble fitting in is because their weapons and armor probably have modifications which would set people on edge. The average citizen will notice the difference between the spiky armor and the armor they seen in pictures/statues.
BTNeophyte wrote:Fallen no problem (unless the citizen has seen a DA before, as IIRC fallen still have the original legion paint scheme),
Even that wouldn't help... at least 1 successor chapter (Relictors I think, don't have the book in front of me) regressed to a slight variation on the 1st Legion scheme. I'd really have to think that non-Astartes (and if the Fallen is being sneak, anybody who's not Unforgiven or Inquisition) would be pretty much out of luck in identifying one of the Fallen.
I would also like to say that I'm a bit of a DA fanboy, so I'm probably a little biased
Traitor Marines can and do disguise themselves as Loyalist Marines. I'm not sure how frequent this is, but it occurs in multiple stories (see for instance "Liberation Day").
Lynata wrote:
Whilst that is certainly true, I think they might play a big role in propaganda. They are, after all, the Emperor's Angels of Death and His spiritual children. Statues or stylized images in various books could give the citizenry enough material to draw a comparison from.
I think you hit the nail on the head here. Lots of planets probably have statues of space marines. Images of space marines killing monsters, space marines brandishing bolters, space marines cradled in the Emperor's hands, and so on probably adorn cathedrals, possibly even in stained glass. Don't forget, this is a science-fantasy-gothic setting. Most Imperial Citizens are used to the "basic" look of a loyal space marine: the smooth armor, the aquilla, and so on.
However, I'd agree that the average Imperial citizen could make a mistake with marines who defy their expectations Space Wolves and possibly Dark Angels - with their barbaric symbols and cowled helmets, respectively - probably get mistaken for traitors with some regularity. Those traitor marines that look more "normal" - I don't know which traitor legions and renegades fall into this category - could be mistaken for loyalists.
Lynata wrote:
A lot of Chaos Marines also seem to have an issue with their temper. Dunno if they could keep their mouth shut when faced with statues of Imperial Saints or greeted with "Praise the Emperor" by the people. Might just be something affecting the "older" CSMs tho, probably depends a lot on how much their sanity was corrupted over the years.
I am going with this. Most Chaos Space Marines are raging lunatics, they would first strike down population and then ask: do you think I am loyal or not?
Alpha Legion could pass as loyal Marines, they are the only ones beside Black Legion and Word Bearers that have kept some sing of sanity.
World Eaters would kill all of the civilians, Death Guard would kill them with their stench, Thousand Sons don't look like standard Marines anymore, Emperor;s Children look like Daemons now, Night Lords look like mix of Batmen and Death, Red Corsairs would also first attack and then ask questions.
And as people stated here - loyal citizens of the Imperium don't even know that Chaos exist and wit hit the traitor Marines. If people took notice at 40k lore in the last year it doesn't say that the Emperor is mortally wounded in battle and near death. But that he finished his conquest and return to Terra to rule. So ordinary people don't even know about Horus Heresy.
All in all - Imperial citizens could only recognize some traitor Marines as loyalist. Others not so much, because of the spike armor, sculls attached to his belt red glowing eyes, Daemon mutations etc...
I could see the Alpha Legion doing it then twisting the system's defenses to help fight off some other "traitors" leading to both loyalist forces killing each other off. Except the PDF, they'd be a shield for them at best.
Most likely not. They cannot even recognise Guardsmen. In the novel Dead men walking, imperial citisens confuse the Death Korps grenadiers for Necrons.
Night lords, alpha legion and maybe some clever Iron warriors would be able to pass for loyalist marines. like 99% of Imperial citizens have no clue what Chaos is....so as long as they're not running at them screaming "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD", they would be able to pass for loyalists.
My favorite thing related to this is when the opposite happens in the GK omnibus and the inquisitor turned to chaos convinces Sisters that grey knights coming to the planet are traitors. Freaking hilarious... though with the 5th ed GK dex i see why they believe him
bombboy1252 wrote:Night lords, alpha legion and maybe some clever Iron warriors would be able to pass for loyalist marines. like 99% of Imperial citizens have no clue what Chaos is....so as long as they're not running at them screaming "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD", they would be able to pass for loyalists.
Yeah, and if they do scream that, everyone will just assume they're Grey Knights.
In traitors hand cain had to explain the differences of chaos to higher up commanders of the army. But also in the same book a simple officer knows chaos when they see it.
Here is the difference. Chaos marines are trying to kill you. Regular marines are looking for an excuse to kill you.
Not likely, no. The Horus Heresy is shrouded in mystery and most citizens aren't aware that the Primarchs and Legions split from the Imperium.
All that's commonly known is that Horus fell... and asking too many questions is not a good idea or widely accepted.
Some planets are raised to recruit or provide for Traitor Legions and may not even know that the sky warriors are 'evil'.
Plus, in one Grey Knights novel, a renegade inquisitor convinces a planet and its Sisters of Battle protectors that the Grey Knights chasing him are Chaos Marines. They have no way of knowing....
There are traitor marines that are obviously traitors, loyalist marines that are fairly obviously loyalist, and plenty of marines on either side than an ignorant peasant could make a mistake on.
It may depend on the world. The Imperium tries to suppress information as much as it can (especially the Inquisition) but like with most things the success will vary from region to region (They're not perfect, and the nature of the warp and the Imperium itself make broad, large-scale continuous cooperation difficult.) It's quite possible to have worlds where the populace is totally ignorant of things except what propoganda tells them (and thus not knowing the difference between Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines) whilst another world might have some inkling that there are 'bad' marines - We know renegade chapters and traitor legions attack worlds, and you can't mind wipe or obliterate every planet they strike or raid (not if you want to keep the Imperium.) More likely they rely on the general ignorance and propoganda/misinformation to divert attention from their existence (EG they know there is some sort of power armoued chaos forces that exist, or maybe they're corrupt servitors - but they aren't told they are Space Marines.) I mean I can recall that in some regions or cases Horus is treated as being a literal devil-figure (it could be that they keep the Horus name but hide the fact he is a primarch from the generla masses, for example.) Kinda the same thing as with Chaos I suspect - some places 'kind of'know it exists, but in a nebulous sort of way filtered through layers of propoganda.
In the blood gorgon novel, the natives of one of their recruiting worlds referred to the gorgons as gods, and being more of a backwater world, didn't even know what space marines existed nor did they worship the emperor.
So for non-imperials obviously the answer is yes
For more barbaric imperials I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be able to tell the difference
And as more advanced as you get the more they would notice. But not by much, but i'm sure they would notice the difference between the ones shouting profanities against the emperor while summoning demons, and ones who spout spacemarine stuff
If they had spikes and radiated the influence of chaos and had defiled armour and had blood frothing out of their mouth grille I know just about anyone could tell.
If they are like the marines malevolent siding with traitors but having their armour still that of a loyalist? Almost definitely not.
im2randomghgh wrote:If they had spikes and radiated the influence of chaos and had defiled armour and had blood frothing out of their mouth grille know just about anyone could tell. .
im2randomghgh wrote:If they had spikes and radiated the influence of chaos and had defiled armour and had blood frothing out of their mouth grille I know just about anyone could tell. .
im2randomghgh wrote:If they had spikes and radiated the influence of chaos and had defiled armour and had blood frothing out of their mouth grille I know just about anyone could tell. .
Night lords would probably not bother walking in plain sight, just killing people sneakily to cause terror. The reason I feel that chaos marines other than the alpha legion, Fallen, and a few others will have trouble fitting in is because their weapons and armor probably have modifications which would set people on edge. The average citizen will notice the difference between the spiky armor and the armor they seen in pictures/statues.
So you're an Imperial citizen going about your day. Suddenly, the sky starts raining fire, and everything begins to explode. Running in a panic from the street, you manage to bunker down while your city is reduced to smoking rubble over the course of two hours of constant explosions. You look out, and see a few shell-shocked survivors wandering in the ruins.
Before the smoke's cleared, you start hearing shooting from what's left of the street. Anyone out is gunned down by a small cadre of eight-foot monsters in giant metal armor and strange, morbid iconography. Anyone who tries to fight back, their shots deflect off the armor harmlessly before they're gunned down like dogs. You duck back into the corner and desperately hope that they don't notice you.
Arturius wrote:So you're an Imperial citizen going about your day. Suddenly, the sky starts raining fire, and everything begins to explode. Running in a panic from the street, you manage to bunker down while your city is reduced to smoking rubble over the course of two hours of constant explosions. You look out, and see a few shell-shocked survivors wandering in the ruins.
Before the smoke's cleared, you start hearing shooting from what's left of the street. Anyone out is gunned down by a small cadre of eight-foot monsters in giant metal armor and strange, morbid iconography. Anyone who tries to fight back, their shots deflect off the armor harmlessly before they're gunned down like dogs. You duck back into the corner and desperately hope that they don't notice you.
Arturius wrote:So you're an Imperial citizen going about your day. Suddenly, the sky starts raining fire, and everything begins to explode. Running in a panic from the street, you manage to bunker down while your city is reduced to smoking rubble over the course of two hours of constant explosions. You look out, and see a few shell-shocked survivors wandering in the ruins.
Before the smoke's cleared, you start hearing shooting from what's left of the street. Anyone out is gunned down by a small cadre of eight-foot monsters in giant metal armor and strange, morbid iconography. Anyone who tries to fight back, their shots deflect off the armor harmlessly before they're gunned down like dogs. You duck back into the corner and desperately hope that they don't notice you.
Are they loyalists or chaos marines?
Very nice. Thats how I picture them already hah.
You know, Grimdarkness aside, not all Space Marines chapters like to gun down civilians "just in case." A few of them, sure - Black Templars, Flesh Tearers or even ordinary Blood Angels if too many of them lose it, Space Wolves when they're drunk - but lots of them try to be genuinely heroic. Ultramarines, Blood Angels when they don't go crazy, and Space Wolves when they're sober, for example.
Joey wrote:I've never seen a whale but I could probably tell if it was a chaos worshipper.
Well, a new excuse for all whale hunters.
"You cannot kill these whales! They're a delicate part of the ecosystem!"
"But, ma'am, they're servants of Slaanesh, the Prince of Pleasure! Of course we have to kill them!"
On topic, though: I would imagine that there are plenty of Imperial Worlds who have never seen these magnificent angels of death, swooping down from the skies and destroying the enemies of man. As long as they weren't actively killing civilians on sight, and didn't have foot-long horns sticking from their heads, then I suppose a Traitor Marine could pass easily for his Loyal brethren.
Traitor: *all decked out in spikes* HHAHAHAHAHAA!! SANITY IS FOR THE WEAK!!!!!
Loyal: *candy-coloured and noble* Purge the enemies of man
Citizen: *looking between them and scratching his chin* Hmmmm....
Durza wrote:Certainly the sane ones could. None of the mono-god legions could though. They're all either insane, diseased or automatons.
You covered Khorne, Nurgle & Tzeentch there, but not Slaanesh. Emperor's Children could, potentially, pass as loyalists - first of all, their name; Considering Imperial citizens know only about their God-Emperor through the Ecclesiarchy, having the 'Emperor's Children' turn up sounds rather good, does it not? However, EC would probably try and jolly the populace along to start enjoying each and every sensation to newer and greater heights or to strive towards absolute perfection in everything. I do love Slaanesh.
"My Lord, I bring news." (Taken from 40konline.com, not sure of the actual origin)
Typhus Marburg paused in his study of the situation map of the dreary little planet his forces were engaged in ravaging.
"Yes?"
"Lord. Starships have appeared in the outer system and are on course for a landing. They have been identified as elements of the Flesh Tearers."
"Yeah? Tell them to sod off and find their own world. Tell 'em we got here first."
"Sire, you misunderstand. They are here to defend this world!"
"What! Why? It's a sorry state of affairs when the followers of Chaos start to defend the weakling Imperium from each other!"
"Um, Lord... the Flesh Tearers are a loyalist chapter."
"They are? With a name like that! Are you sure they're not one of ours?"
"Positive, My Lord."
"Have you been able to call for any assistance?"
"The Astropaths have contacted other forces nearby. Unfortunately this has also alerted other loyalist forces in the sector and they are also headed our way."
"Bugger. So who gets here first then?"
"The Alpha Legion, sire."
"It never rains, it only pours, hey?"
"Umm..."
"What!"
"The Alpha Legion is one of ours."
"It is?!"
"Yes."
"I'm confused. You're telling me that a mob called the 'Flesh Tearers' isn't one of ours but a mob called the - what was it again..."
"The Alpha Legion, sire."
"Right... a mob called the Alpha Legion is one of ours."
"That is correct, sire."
"So who else is showing up to this barney then?"
"The Blood Drinkers."
"One of ours?"
"One of theirs."
"OK."
"The Iron Warriors."
"One of theirs?"
"No. One of ours."
"Go figure."
"The Dark Angels."
"Now I've heard of them. Followers of Slaanesh aren't they?"
"No, I think you're thinking of The Fallen, sire. The Dark Angels are Loyalists too."
"Bugger. So who else then?"
"The Emperor's Children."
"Oh, that one's too easy. They're obviously loyalists with a name like that."
"Um, not exactly my Lord."
"Really?"
"Yes, Lord. They're one of ours too."
"This is silly. All the really evil sounding names are being used by weakling loyalists while it seems as though the forces of chaos have got the naff monikers. Are there any more of these I should know about?"
"A few, Lord."
"OK then, spell it out for me, starting with Loyalists that sound like traitors and then moving onto traitors that sound like Loyalists."
"I will attempt to do so, Lord. OK - the Loyalists that sound like traitors... the Marauders, Rampagers, Destroyers and Storm Lords (all White Scar second foundings in point of fact)."
"I like the sound of the Storm Lords. You sure they aren't one of ours?"
"Quite sure. Then there's the Blood Drinkers and the Flesh Tearers - both of which are Loyalist second founding of the Blood Angels."
"With names like that I'd always assumed they were more bone headed followers of the blood god."
"Not so far, My Lord. Then there's the Red Talons..."
"I thought they were renegade pirates."
"No Lord, that's the Red Corsairs."
"Oh. OK. Continue."
"The Brazen Claws are loyalists too."
"Good name for a Khornate force though isn't it?"
"Yes Lord. Then there's the Black Guard (not to be confused with the Black Legion which IS one of ours), the Revilers, and the Raptors."
"Hold on a minute! The Raptors? They're definitely ours. Hell we've got a small unit of them attached to our forces haven't we?"
"My Lord, those are the troops known as Raptors but there is also a loyalist legion with the same name."
"Must get a bit confusing for the loyalists then?"
"I imagine so, My Lord. There are also the Doom Eagles, the Silver Skulls, and the Iron Hands (not to be mistaken for the Iron Warriors, who are ours)."
"Bloody hell. Is that it?"
"There are also some lesser known chapters that also seem to cause occasional confusion."
"Such as..."
"The Doomfarers are one that our forces have occasionally encountered."
"Oh yeah. Those yoyos. So what about the Chaos forces that sound like loyalists then..."
"Well as mentioned earlier there are The Emperor's Children, The Iron Warriors, the Thousand Sons, the Lunar Wolves (who changed their name to the Sons of Horus and then to the Black Legion)..."
"Well at least they're easily IDed as one of ours now. The Black Legion eh? Now that's a proper name. Just postively oozes evil from every pore."
"Yes, Lord. To continue, there are also the Word Bearers, and the Alpha Legion."
"The Word Bearers? What kind of silly name is that for a Chaos Legion?"
"They used to be missionaries sire"
"We you'd think that once they switched to our side they'd change their name to something a little more in keeping with being evil mad men. I mean come on 'The Word Bearers'? It's a silly name."
"Yes my Lord"
"You know, I think the forces of Chaos should have proper Chaos names. There's no room for mistakes when you're called something like 'The World Eaters' or 'The Death Guard'..."
"Actually Lord, both those chapters had those names when they were loyalists."
"You're kidding."
"No, My Lord."
"Yeesh. I would have thought names like that would be a bit scary for the average imperial citizen. I mean "Yay we're being rescued by the World Eaters" just doesn't sound credible while "Aargh! Flee! It's the World Eaters" seems much more likely."
"Yes, My Lord. I believe the latter is more likely these days anyway."
"Makes no bloody sense at all."
"Yes, My Lord."
"Kill 'em all and let the Chaos Gods sort 'em out I say."
"Sounds like a completely reasonable approach to me, My Lord."
Miraclefish wrote:"My Lord, I bring news." (Taken from 40konline.com, not sure of the actual origin)
Typhus Marburg paused in his study of the situation map of the dreary little planet his forces were engaged in ravaging.
"Yes?"
"Lord. Starships have appeared in the outer system and are on course for a landing. They have been identified as elements of the Flesh Tearers."
"Yeah? Tell them to sod off and find their own world. Tell 'em we got here first."
"Sire, you misunderstand. They are here to defend this world!"
"What! Why? It's a sorry state of affairs when the followers of Chaos start to defend the weakling Imperium from each other!"
"Um, Lord... the Flesh Tearers are a loyalist chapter."
"They are? With a name like that! Are you sure they're not one of ours?"
"Positive, My Lord."
"Have you been able to call for any assistance?"
"The Astropaths have contacted other forces nearby. Unfortunately this has also alerted other loyalist forces in the sector and they are also headed our way."
"Bugger. So who gets here first then?"
"The Alpha Legion, sire."
"It never rains, it only pours, hey?"
"Umm..."
"What!"
"The Alpha Legion is one of ours."
"It is?!"
"Yes."
"I'm confused. You're telling me that a mob called the 'Flesh Tearers' isn't one of ours but a mob called the - what was it again..."
"The Alpha Legion, sire."
"Right... a mob called the Alpha Legion is one of ours."
"That is correct, sire."
"So who else is showing up to this barney then?"
"The Blood Drinkers."
"One of ours?"
"One of theirs."
"OK."
"The Iron Warriors."
"One of theirs?"
"No. One of ours."
"Go figure."
"The Dark Angels."
"Now I've heard of them. Followers of Slaanesh aren't they?"
"No, I think you're thinking of The Fallen, sire. The Dark Angels are Loyalists too."
"Bugger. So who else then?"
"The Emperor's Children."
"Oh, that one's too easy. They're obviously loyalists with a name like that."
"Um, not exactly my Lord."
"Really?"
"Yes, Lord. They're one of ours too."
"This is silly. All the really evil sounding names are being used by weakling loyalists while it seems as though the forces of chaos have got the naff monikers. Are there any more of these I should know about?"
"A few, Lord."
"OK then, spell it out for me, starting with Loyalists that sound like traitors and then moving onto traitors that sound like Loyalists."
"I will attempt to do so, Lord. OK - the Loyalists that sound like traitors... the Marauders, Rampagers, Destroyers and Storm Lords (all White Scar second foundings in point of fact)."
"I like the sound of the Storm Lords. You sure they aren't one of ours?"
"Quite sure. Then there's the Blood Drinkers and the Flesh Tearers - both of which are Loyalist second founding of the Blood Angels."
"With names like that I'd always assumed they were more bone headed followers of the blood god."
"Not so far, My Lord. Then there's the Red Talons..."
"I thought they were renegade pirates."
"No Lord, that's the Red Corsairs."
"Oh. OK. Continue."
"The Brazen Claws are loyalists too."
"Good name for a Khornate force though isn't it?"
"Yes Lord. Then there's the Black Guard (not to be confused with the Black Legion which IS one of ours), the Revilers, and the Raptors."
"Hold on a minute! The Raptors? They're definitely ours. Hell we've got a small unit of them attached to our forces haven't we?"
"My Lord, those are the troops known as Raptors but there is also a loyalist legion with the same name."
"Must get a bit confusing for the loyalists then?"
"I imagine so, My Lord. There are also the Doom Eagles, the Silver Skulls, and the Iron Hands (not to be mistaken for the Iron Warriors, who are ours)."
"Bloody hell. Is that it?"
"There are also some lesser known chapters that also seem to cause occasional confusion."
"Such as..."
"The Doomfarers are one that our forces have occasionally encountered."
"Oh yeah. Those yoyos. So what about the Chaos forces that sound like loyalists then..."
"Well as mentioned earlier there are The Emperor's Children, The Iron Warriors, the Thousand Sons, the Lunar Wolves (who changed their name to the Sons of Horus and then to the Black Legion)..."
"Well at least they're easily IDed as one of ours now. The Black Legion eh? Now that's a proper name. Just postively oozes evil from every pore."
"Yes, Lord. To continue, there are also the Word Bearers, and the Alpha Legion."
"The Word Bearers? What kind of silly name is that for a Chaos Legion?"
"They used to be missionaries sire"
"We you'd think that once they switched to our side they'd change their name to something a little more in keeping with being evil mad men. I mean come on 'The Word Bearers'? It's a silly name."
"Yes my Lord"
"You know, I think the forces of Chaos should have proper Chaos names. There's no room for mistakes when you're called something like 'The World Eaters' or 'The Death Guard'..."
"Actually Lord, both those chapters had those names when they were loyalists."
"You're kidding."
"No, My Lord."
"Yeesh. I would have thought names like that would be a bit scary for the average imperial citizen. I mean "Yay we're being rescued by the World Eaters" just doesn't sound credible while "Aargh! Flee! It's the World Eaters" seems much more likely."
"Yes, My Lord. I believe the latter is more likely these days anyway."
"Makes no bloody sense at all."
"Yes, My Lord."
"Kill 'em all and let the Chaos Gods sort 'em out I say."
"Sounds like a completely reasonable approach to me, My Lord."
LOL!
That sounds like something Terry Pratchett would write.
ElectricPaladin wrote:You know, Grimdarkness aside, not all Space Marines chapters like to gun down civilians "just in case." A few of them, sure - Black Templars, Flesh Tearers or even ordinary Blood Angels if too many of them lose it, Space Wolves when they're drunk - but lots of them try to be genuinely heroic. Ultramarines, Blood Angels when they don't go crazy, and Space Wolves when they're sober, for example.
Heck, Some have even been shown to go out of their way to save civilians. Like Shrike in "Hunt For Voldorious" where he
Spoiler:
Kidnapped a women who he knew was forced into chaos servitude and would be executed by the inquisition and was about to be killed by the white scars(It makes me upset at my fav chapter, because even the executer knew she was forced iinto service)
Or the salamanders in the third war for armageddon. Where they would go one rescue missions to save civilians.
Durza wrote:Certainly the sane ones could. None of the mono-god legions could though. They're all either insane, diseased or automatons.
You covered Khorne, Nurgle & Tzeentch there, but not Slaanesh. Emperor's Children could, potentially, pass as loyalists - first of all, their name; Considering Imperial citizens know only about their God-Emperor through the Ecclesiarchy, having the 'Emperor's Children' turn up sounds rather good, does it not? However, EC would probably try and jolly the populace along to start enjoying each and every sensation to newer and greater heights or to strive towards absolute perfection in everything. I do love Slaanesh.
The EC are just as crazy, if not more so, as the WE. Sure, it might sound good to hear an announcement that the Emperor's Children are arriving from a few light years away, but once the screams of excess start to flood the broadcasts, the citizens are going to figure out pretty quickly that they do not want to attend the planned concert.
I think a good few of the undivided legions could pull off acting like loyalists if they kept calm and didn't go crazy. (NONE of the followers of the 4 chaos gods could pull it off though i think)
Durza wrote:Sure, it might sound good to hear an announcement that the Emperor's Children are arriving from a few light years away, but once the screams of excess start to flood the broadcasts, the citizens are going to figure out pretty quickly that they do not want to attend the planned concert.
They could keep the Comms closed and make up for that after their invasion by projecting their ecstatic cries as they enjoy each sensation right across the Segmenta.
However I don't think the populace would really have a choice about attending 'the planned concert'. Attendance would, I imagine, be compulsory.
The few facts of life of the Imperium lead me to believe that most of the traitor Legions could go unnoticed as any different from the legendary Astartes they are told about.
1) Imperial citizens are dominated by the Ecclesiarchy. Knowledge of Chaos is strictly forbidden and suppressed. Knowledge of traitor marines is not likely to be given to your average priest or clergyman.
2) All Space Marines would be fantastical to behold. Reading some of the Horus Heresy and other books with Space Marines in it (Eisenhorn series is a good one) it shows that even higher up Imperial citizens would have trouble understanding that there are two sides.
3) I will say it again... The knowledge of the Horus Heresy is very tightly controlled.
CuddlySquig wrote:A baby with no concept of life could tell a traitor marine from a regular marine.
Traitor: *all decked out in spikes* HHAHAHAHAHAA!! SANITY IS FOR THE WEAK!!!!!
Loyal: *candy-coloured and noble* Purge the enemies of man
Citizen: *looking between them and scratching his chin* Hmmmm....
Not quite. To the general populace they don't act much differently.
Its simple. Chaos marines have less skulls on their armor.
nurglerulesslaneshdrools wrote:Well if you think about it rouge inquisitors do (grey knights omnibus) so why not csm
Rouge? Oh god, red, french inquisitors!!!
You don't frighten us, Chaos pig-dogs! ... I blow my nose at you, so-called Ah-bahdon Derspoiler, you and all your silly Chaos K-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-niggits!
Supreme Kai wrote:Maybe that big old Chaos symbol on his chest gives them away. Also i would picture a chaos marine to have a very evil aura that would affect people.
Way to not bother even reading a 3 page thread.
Once again, Imperial citizens aren't aware chaos is even a thing, let alone what their symbols are, or that there are traitor marines, or that some traitor marines follow chaos.
Supreme Kai wrote:Maybe that big old Chaos symbol on his chest gives them away. Also i would picture a chaos marine to have a very evil aura that would affect people.
Way to not bother even reading a 3 page thread.
Once again, Imperial citizens aren't aware chaos is even a thing, let alone what their symbols are, or that there are traitor marines, or that some traitor marines follow chaos.
Though many books do make the point that the symbols of Chaos make people sick or drive them insane. So if you start feeling crazy when you're looking at the symbols on a marine, they're probably Chaos. Or Ultramarines, judging by some reactions...
Durza wrote:
Though many books do make the point that the symbols of Chaos make people sick or drive them insane. So if you start feeling crazy when you're looking at the symbols on a marine, they're probably Chaos.
Durza wrote:
Though many books do make the point that the symbols of Chaos make people sick or drive them insane. So if you start feeling crazy when you're looking at the symbols on a marine, they're probably Chaos.
They can't deduce that it's Chaos.
yeah, for all they know its the awsomeness of demi-gods rubbing off on them.
Durza wrote:
Though many books do make the point that the symbols of Chaos make people sick or drive them insane. So if you start feeling crazy when you're looking at the symbols on a marine, they're probably Chaos.
They can't deduce that it's Chaos.
yeah, for all they know its the awsomeness of demi-gods rubbing off on them.
Not to mention the average citizen would probably already have an overwhelming urge to take a knee and avert their eyes in the presence of one of the Emperor's Angels of Death, because, you know, they're Angels of Death.
As was mentioned multiple times, the Night Lords novel Lord of the Night has this very topic as a central plot component. Incredibly devout followers of the Emperor are easily convinced that the Night Lord in question is a loyal Astartes, and are completely awestruck and worshipful in his presence.
All I have to say is, this must make the Alpha Legion's job really easy.
The Fallen have in one of the books, they are chasing a fallen warband around, and end up losing thier gene stock and releasing a virus bomb in their sealed fortress monastary, forcig the space marines to either exterminatus the entire world or die a slow death of dehydration and hunger.
Johnnyboy955 wrote:The Fallen have in one of the books, they are chasing a fallen warband around, and end up losing thier gene stock and releasing a virus bomb in their sealed fortress monastary, forcig the space marines to either exterminatus the entire world or die a slow death of dehydration and hunger.
I am sorry, but how is this relevant? I think you may be responding to the wrong topic.
Johnnyboy955 wrote:The Fallen have in one of the books, they are chasing a fallen warband around, and end up losing thier gene stock and releasing a virus bomb in their sealed fortress monastary, forcig the space marines to either exterminatus the entire world or die a slow death of dehydration and hunger.
I am sorry, but how is this relevant? I think you may be responding to the wrong topic.
No, he just didn't give enough Information.
Its called Angels of Darkness.
Spoiler:
In the book, a DA Chaplain and a squad of marines are occuping a Fortress of the chapter and training initiates. There is extreme unrest on the planet for some reason and eventually he discovers some Fallen have a base on a moon in the system. He is then forced to induct the squad of marines into the Deathwing and go take out the Fallen. They get there and they are all gone. When they get back they find the planet rebelling against them and are forced to fight their way to the Fortress, they get there and some Fallen have slaughtered the Initiates and stolen the Geneseed and basically told the populace that the Marines in Bone White around that are landing are the enemy(the DA repainted their armor)
The Space marines then find that the Fallen have rigged a Virus Bomb in the fortress, they can either go after the Geneseed or let the planet live. They spare the planet and commit suicide.
Supreme Kai wrote:Maybe that big old Chaos symbol on his chest gives them away. Also i would picture a chaos marine to have a very evil aura that would affect people.
Way to not bother even reading a 3 page thread.
Once again, Imperial citizens aren't aware chaos is even a thing, let alone what their symbols are, or that there are traitor marines, or that some traitor marines follow chaos.
Well sources tend to contradict each other here. In Scourge the Heretic, a pair of PDF troopers were having a conversation and just treated it as a taboo subject, the same way the primarchs seemed to consider the missing legions a unapproachable subject.
Most Imperial citizens have never seen the SM only know of them from story's and legends so I think while most citizen are awe struck at first seeing SM they are afraid of hem as well. CSM that have mutations or dismembered body parts hanging off their armour will quickly be identified as heretic and dispatched with the wrath of the Imperium.
st2me wrote:Most Imperial citizens have never seen the SM only know of them from story's and legends so I think while most citizen are awe struck at first seeing SM they are afraid of hem as well. CSM that have mutations or dismembered body parts hanging off their armour will quickly be identified as heretic and dispatched with the wrath of the Imperium.
Well the Black Dragons are loyalist and have severe physical mutation, and so are the Soul Drinkers, though for a completely different reason.
I think a bigger issue is the self-imposed secrecy of the Inquisition. How are you supposed to get anything done if you have to spend all day getting menial servants to believe you are who you say you are, and you really do carry the authority you say you do.
You can imagine the scenario, an Inquisitor in hot pursuit of his quarry charges into an Imperial docking facility and attempts to comandeer a vessel.
The captain says 'You and whose army?'
Inquisitor shows him his seal.
'Well, thats really pretty' says the captain. 'After I beat you for your insolence I might just take it and give it my daughter.'
So the Inquisitor is faced with the problem of either physically fighting his way to the bridge and violently seizing control of his desired target, or calling his superior, to ask him to get in touch with the captains superior, to relay the orders that yes, he is in fact allowed to take the ship.
Kaldor wrote:I think a bigger issue is the self-imposed secrecy of the Inquisition. How are you supposed to get anything done if you have to spend all day getting menial servants to believe you are who you say you are, and you really do carry the authority you say you do.
You can imagine the scenario, an Inquisitor in hot pursuit of his quarry charges into an Imperial docking facility and attempts to comandeer a vessel.
The captain says 'You and whose army?'
Inquisitor shows him his seal.
'Well, thats really pretty' says the captain. 'After I beat you for your insolence I might just take it and give it my daughter.'
So the Inquisitor is faced with the problem of either physically fighting his way to the bridge and violently seizing control of his desired target, or calling his superior, to ask him to get in touch with the captains superior, to relay the orders that yes, he is in fact allowed to take the ship.
Meanwhile, the target has escaped...
Except every citizen, without exception, is TERRIFIED of the rosette. In brother of the snake, a noble woman refused to obey a space marine, and actually attacked him with digital weapons, but the sight of the rosette made her faint.
Also, most inquisitors are amazing in combat, to the point of stacking up to space marine sergeant, with a huge number of them being power/terminator armored beta+ psykers, plus they without exception have warbands that can wipe out tactical squads without too much trouble.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Except every citizen, without exception, is TERRIFIED of the rosette
Cite.
Also, most inquisitors are amazing in combat, to the point of stacking up to space marine sergeant, with a huge number of them being power/terminator armored beta+ psykers, plus they without exception have warbands that can wipe out tactical squads without too much trouble.
Cite.
Also, some jobs cannot be achieved through force or intimidation.
Johnnyboy955 wrote:The Fallen have in one of the books, they are chasing a fallen warband around, and end up losing thier gene stock and releasing a virus bomb in their sealed fortress monastary, forcig the space marines to either exterminatus the entire world or die a slow death of dehydration and hunger.
I am sorry, but how is this relevant? I think you may be responding to the wrong topic.
No, he just didn't give enough Information.
Its called Angels of Darkness.
Spoiler:
In the book, a DA Chaplain and a squad of marines are occuping a Fortress of the chapter and training initiates. There is extreme unrest on the planet for some reason and eventually he discovers some Fallen have a base on a moon in the system. He is then forced to induct the squad of marines into the Deathwing and go take out the Fallen. They get there and they are all gone. When they get back they find the planet rebelling against them and are forced to fight their way to the Fortress, they get there and some Fallen have slaughtered the Initiates and stolen the Geneseed and basically told the populace that the Marines in Bone White around that are landing are the enemy(the DA repainted their armor)
The Space marines then find that the Fallen have rigged a Virus Bomb in the fortress, they can either go after the Geneseed or let the planet live. They spare the planet and commit suicide.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Except every citizen, without exception, is TERRIFIED of the rosette
Cite.
From the FFG Dark Heresy rulebook (pg.266);
"Come in acid-storm they did, with the rain and lightning licking the spireport as they landed. They cut the power to the big estate-habs. Whole half the hive went dark with it, and by the time they got it running again and stopped the riots and scraped up the dead, it were too late. Five noble houses gone - and they never did say why neither. I venture I could make a guess or two though - the things you see when you're cleaning viewports..."
Phormbis, Hive Tranch Windowjack
"Mutants are bad, and what's worse is what comes in their wake. Listen up, stubberscum, if you spy something strange with your platoon mates, report it! Otherwise the Inquisition will be through here like the worst dose of gutflush you ever swallowed, giving each and every one of you a Commissar's welcome - the last and loudest noise you'll ever hear!"
Arms-Sergeant Heikon Thrass, Mortressen 103rd.
"'Quisitors? Hush now, we don't even speak of 'em. You names 'em, you call 'em an' that's the last thing yer want. They'll 'ave an excruciater up yer fundament afore yer can scream 'Throne blind me!'"
Agri-hand Jaspus Sawney
Everyone knows of the Inquisition and what's more everyone knows to obey and fear an Inquisitor. Obedience runs deep within the Imperium as it's citizens have little free will. They can not question the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy, they work at the job/in the role they are given each day and everyday without question or thought of doing anything else unless told to. As the Inquisition rulebook says, page 96, "Inquisitors are legendary across the civilised worlds of the Imperium, a combination of saints who inspire and horrors used to scare children into obedience." So when an Inquisitor says to the Captain in your example "I need your ship" the Captain immediately says "Yes sir, what course sir? Please feel free to use my quarters as they're the most comfortable."
Out of pure, deep-seated fear, nobody crosses the Inquisition.
Kaldor wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote: Also, most inquisitors are amazing in combat, to the point of stacking up to space marine sergeant, with a huge number of them being power/terminator armored beta+ psykers, plus they without exception have warbands that can wipe out tactical squads without too much trouble.
Cite.
Also, some jobs cannot be achieved through force or intimidation.
Inquisitors in the Inquisitor rulebook have -very high- statlines, equal of Marines in everything except in terms of strength & toughness and in some areas excel past Astartes. They have access to any equipment they want, any at all. Therefore their kill-teams can be equipped with lots of plasma & melta weapons, have the best carapace armour available, have refractor & conversion fields and more esoteric gear, such as xenos weapons, needle weapons. Some of their kill-team members may even have advanced bionic implants or limbs, boosting their already considerable skills to higher levels.
Then there is the fact that many Inquisitors are psykers and would be able to blast apart squads of Astartes with their psychic talents - they can render their weapons useless, throw them around, set them on fire, force the Astartes to obey them, make them feeble, choke them, boil their blood or even go with good old fashioned lightning. And that's just a few examples.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Except every citizen, without exception, is TERRIFIED of the rosette
Cite.
Also, most inquisitors are amazing in combat, to the point of stacking up to space marine sergeant, with a huge number of them being power/terminator armored beta+ psykers, plus they without exception have warbands that can wipe out tactical squads without too much trouble.
Cite.
Also, some jobs cannot be achieved through force or intimidation.
1. The high lords of terra can only refuse the order of an inquisitor if they have good reason. Everyone is terrified of this. If you insist on an explicit quote, I will get you one.
2. Well inquisitor Hector Rex banished An'ggrath the unbound in personal combat, and An'ggrath is the most powerful demon of the Blood God, and likely the most powerful daemon period, given the fact that Khorne is the most powerful CG at the moment. For other examples of combat-capable inquisitors, see: Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Coteaz, Karamazov, Kryptman etc.
Whilst power armour is most commonly associated with the Adeptus Astartes, the Sisters of Battle and many Inquisitors also use powered armour of one sort or another. Typically however these armours may not contain the same strength enhancing properties or life-support functions of Space Marine power armour nor do they provide the same amount of protection.
Kaldor wrote:I think a bigger issue is the self-imposed secrecy of the Inquisition. How are you supposed to get anything done if you have to spend all day getting menial servants to believe you are who you say you are, and you really do carry the authority you say you do.
You can imagine the scenario, an Inquisitor in hot pursuit of his quarry charges into an Imperial docking facility and attempts to comandeer a vessel.
The captain says 'You and whose army?'
Inquisitor shows him his seal.
'Well, thats really pretty' says the captain. 'After I beat you for your insolence I might just take it and give it my daughter.'
So the Inquisitor is faced with the problem of either physically fighting his way to the bridge and violently seizing control of his desired target, or calling his superior, to ask him to get in touch with the captains superior, to relay the orders that yes, he is in fact allowed to take the ship.
Meanwhile, the target has escaped...
...and the Inquisitor has the captain, the captain's immediate superiors, the captain's and his superiors' friends, family, PTA, and pet dogs all tortured to death under suspicion of heresy, for the crime of impeding an Inquisitor in his duties, and as a lesson that you GODDAMN WELL DO WHAT THE MAN WITH THE ROSETTE SAYS.
Kaldor wrote:I think a bigger issue is the self-imposed secrecy of the Inquisition. How are you supposed to get anything done if you have to spend all day getting menial servants to believe you are who you say you are, and you really do carry the authority you say you do.
You can imagine the scenario, an Inquisitor in hot pursuit of his quarry charges into an Imperial docking facility and attempts to comandeer a vessel.
The captain says 'You and whose army?'
Inquisitor shows him his seal.
'Well, thats really pretty' says the captain. 'After I beat you for your insolence I might just take it and give it my daughter.'
So the Inquisitor is faced with the problem of either physically fighting his way to the bridge and violently seizing control of his desired target, or calling his superior, to ask him to get in touch with the captains superior, to relay the orders that yes, he is in fact allowed to take the ship.
Meanwhile, the target has escaped...
...and the Inquisitor has the captain, the captain's immediate superiors, the captain's and his superiors' friends, family, PTA, and pet dogs all tortured to death under suspicion of heresy, for the crime of impeding an Inquisitor in his duties, and as a lesson that you GODDAMN WELL DO WHAT THE MAN WITH THE ROSETTE SAYS.
And his mailman, and that guy from his 3rd grade math class and his planet...
im2randomghgh wrote:1. The high lords of terra can only refuse the order of an inquisitor if they have good reason. Everyone is terrified of this. If you insist on an explicit quote, I will get you one.
That would be nice, but what I'm really after is a quote that says that EVERY citizen of the Imperium, from Chapter Masters, to High Lords, to stone-age ferals is TERRIFIED of a rosette.
2. Well inquisitor Hector Rex banished An'ggrath the unbound in personal combat, and An'ggrath is the most powerful demon of the Blood God, and likely the most powerful daemon period, given the fact that Khorne is the most powerful CG at the moment. For other examples of combat-capable inquisitors, see: Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Coteaz, Karamazov, Kryptman etc.
Thats really neat. Now cite to me a source stating that all Inquisitors are of equal combat prowess to an Astartes sergeant. Remembering the standards set out by you in the Spartans vs Astartes thread ;-) Then explain to me how that combat prowess will be useful in a bureaucratic jurisdiction dispute.
Really, one of the defining traits of the administration of the Imperium is its unweildiness and clumsiness. How does a ships captain know that the man before him is really an inquisitor? That his inquisitorial seal is legitimate and not a fake? Does he simply surrender his ship without question, or double check the authenticity of it first? Has he ever seen a REAL inquisitorial seal before? Would he recognise one? And do any of those answers apply carte blanche across all citizens of the Imperium?
No. Of course not. And of course, leaving issues of counterfeiting, impersonation and chains of command aside, there are issues whith legitimate jurisdiction concerns as well. The treaty of Mars would make it a tricky prospect for an Inquisitor to commandeer Admech resources.
It's one of the things that I think makes the 40K galaxy interesting: Over such a large community, the only symbols that would be universally recognisable would be simple, striking ones. And simple, striking symbols are easily duplicated.
Really, one of the defining traits of the administration of the Imperium is its unweildiness and clumsiness. How does a ships captain know that the man before him is really an inquisitor? That his inquisitorial seal is legitimate and not a fake? Does he simply surrender his ship without question, or double check the authenticity of it first?
The seals are usually presented as having technological components with things like identification included.
A ship's captain might be hesitant to give up command unconditionally. He should know, though, that Imperial policy means that stonewalling an Inquisitor results in a death that is not short, painless, or uncertain.
i think it would be more easy to tell csm because of their suit. the figures have different backpacks style armor than regular sm, so wouldn't that make it easy to tell the difference
Langston128 wrote:i think it would be more easy to tell csm because of their suit. the figures have different backpacks style armor than regular sm, so wouldn't that make it easy to tell the difference
That would imply a significant familiarity with both styles. I'm betting most Imperial citizens have never seen an actual Marine, and most of the imagery of Marines is probably way off.
Thats really neat. Now cite to me a source stating that all Inquisitors are of equal combat prowess to an Astartes sergeant. Remembering the standards set out by you in the Spartans vs Astartes thread ;-) Then explain to me how that combat prowess will be useful in a bureaucratic jurisdiction dispute.
Well for one thing most inquisitors are psykers which is pretty decisive in and of itself, for another most of them wear power armour, for another I listed just about every named inquisitor, and if you do some research you'll see that just about all of them are fierce warriors. And then you have the inquisitor from Savage Scars who tossed Veteran Sergeant Sarik around like a plaything with his immense psychic power...
No. Of course not. And of course, leaving issues of counterfeiting, impersonation and chains of command aside, there are issues whith legitimate jurisdiction concerns as well. The treaty of Mars would make it a tricky prospect for an Inquisitor to commandeer Admech resources.
Actually, the treaty of mars holds no weight next to the inquisition. I can't remember which book, but one BL book went into great detail on this.
Dark Heresy Rulebook wrote:If required, Inquisitors may call on the service and/or resources of any Imperial servant or organisation. Not even a High Lord of Terra may refuse the order of an Inquisitor without good reason. This power extends across the Adeptus Astartes and the Adeptus Mechanicus, however learned Inquisitors show discretion and request the assistance of the Space Marines and attempt not to anger the Adepts of Mars.
Lexicanum wrote:No one, except the Emperor himself, is beyond the scrutiny of the Inquisition. This power is officially known as the Inquisitorial Remit or Inquisitorial Mandate.
And counterfeiting doesn't work because Rosette's are keyed to their proprieter's DNA. Also, them wearing power armour, being psykers and having warbands is a dead giveaway.
Pomyboy wrote:Him/her would tell the difference when the trator marine opened up on him/her with a boltgun
Which means they're traitors. Or your governor is rebelling. Or someone's put your entire neighborhood on a 'purge' list for reasons you'll never know or be able to ask. Or you're in a war zone and the Asartes are shooting anything they find. Or they're psychotic Flesh Tearers or Blood Knights, or Death Company...
Imperial citizens have no idea about traitor legion heraldry / names / history. To them the Horus Heresy is literally mythology.
During the seige of Valks when the Alpha Legion landed at a loyal starport to go join the traitor held fortress. No one had any idea who they were.
Even after they joined the traitors and started killing them they didn't suspect they could be legionaries ten thousand years old.
Segmentum command had to send astropathic messages all over the sector to try and find out chapters were currently deployed in the sector and what colours their armour was.
There is no google in the 41st mellenium.
So yeah I hate it when in some crappy story a guardsmen goes, "Look out sir! The Word Bearers are here!!. Oh no!! The Thousand Sons just rocked up too!!! araghagh!!"
im2randomghgh wrote:1. The high lords of terra can only refuse the order of an inquisitor if they have good reason. Everyone is terrified of this. If you insist on an explicit quote, I will get you one.
That would be nice, but what I'm really after is a quote that says that EVERY citizen of the Imperium, from Chapter Masters, to High Lords, to stone-age ferals is TERRIFIED of a rosette.
2. Well inquisitor Hector Rex banished An'ggrath the unbound in personal combat, and An'ggrath is the most powerful demon of the Blood God, and likely the most powerful daemon period, given the fact that Khorne is the most powerful CG at the moment. For other examples of combat-capable inquisitors, see: Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Coteaz, Karamazov, Kryptman etc.
Thats really neat. Now cite to me a source stating that all Inquisitors are of equal combat prowess to an Astartes sergeant. Remembering the standards set out by you in the Spartans vs Astartes thread ;-) Then explain to me how that combat prowess will be useful in a bureaucratic jurisdiction dispute.
Really, one of the defining traits of the administration of the Imperium is its unweildiness and clumsiness. How does a ships captain know that the man before him is really an inquisitor? That his inquisitorial seal is legitimate and not a fake? Does he simply surrender his ship without question, or double check the authenticity of it first? Has he ever seen a REAL inquisitorial seal before? Would he recognise one? And do any of those answers apply carte blanche across all citizens of the Imperium?
No. Of course not. And of course, leaving issues of counterfeiting, impersonation and chains of command aside, there are issues whith legitimate jurisdiction concerns as well. The treaty of Mars would make it a tricky prospect for an Inquisitor to commandeer Admech resources.
It's one of the things that I think makes the 40K galaxy interesting: Over such a large community, the only symbols that would be universally recognisable would be simple, striking ones. And simple, striking symbols are easily duplicated.
I agree with you that not all inquisitors are as powerful as they claim. Even having read Eisenhorn, he is no where near as talented as a Space Marine in combat. A sergeant in the Astartes is a genetically engineered machine of death with centuries of combat under his belt. There are Inquisitors with that combat ability but not many as you would say. The ones we know about are because they were so amazing. You don't want to read about the millions of other Inquisitors that have the same ability as an Imperial Guard sergeant. Plot armor is pretty amazing indeed.
The Inquisition is known to most of the Imperium because they themselves are not a secret organization. Their practice may be, but everyone knew the Spanish Inquisition existed back in the day. The fact that there are legions of traitor marines is a secret that is kept from the public however.
Citizens of the Imperium have the right to be weary of Inquisitors and people impersonating them. However, the fear of the wrath from an Inquisitor is more than enough to make most citizens comply without voiced objections, but just incase, legit rosettes have an integrated data interface that carries all the proper codes and authorizations they need to prove their legitimacy.
Bongfu wrote: Citizens of the Imperium have the right to be weary of Inquisitors and people impersonating them. However, the fear of the wrath from an Inquisitor is more than enough to make most citizens comply without voiced objections, but just incase, legit rosettes have an integrated data interface that carries all the proper codes and authorizations they need to prove their legitimacy.
Ah, that makes more sense. Plug it into a sufficiently powerful Machine Spirit, or have an Astropath verify the details with someone. Still leaves the potential for fakes and stolen IDs though. I like it, plenty of room for intrigue and backstabbing!
