I tried searching for this but only found a few posts that touched on the subject a little but found no answer. With the faq ruling that Stormlord can reroll night fighting with a Cryptek in his unit what does the Necron army lose if Stormlord dies? I'm pretty sure the lightning would stop but what about night fighting? I seen several post that said night fight was comparable to Vulkan's (or most other examples) combat tactics, meaning it stays even if Stormlord dies. With the new faq giving him ownership of the night fight rules it has confused me a little. Thanks for any help.

Loses the lightning and nightfighting

Since GW made the storm part of the Lord (the ONLY way you can reroll the dice via a chronometron) you lose absolutely everything associated with him while he is dead, off the board, etc.

It'd go away, just like the lightning would. Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

rigeld2 wrote:Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

The wording for Lord of the Storm says that Night Fight applies automatically first turn if Imotekh is included in your list. I know the FAQ has mucked things up quite a bit, but it seems like it should still work with Imo in reserve...

rigeld2 wrote:It'd go away, just like the lightning would. Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

And this is wrong. The codex states that he must simply be in your army, not deployed in order for it to be in effect. You can't reroll anything with him not on the board because you need the chronometron's power for that, but there is absolutely no rules backing for it not working if he's in reserve.

WanderingFox wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It'd go away, just like the lightning would. Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

And this is wrong. The codex states that he must simply be in your army, not deployed in order for it to be in effect. You can't reroll anything with him not on the board because you need the chronometron's power for that, but there is absolutely no rules backing for it not working if he's in reserve.

Fair enough. Such a horrible FAQ answer... if the ability isn't linked to him, how is he re-rolling it? sigh...

what about if he dies? I'm thinking it doesn't go away immediately, but no more rolls to keep it going.

WanderingFox wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It'd go away, just like the lightning would. Also, if he's in reserve there's no lightning or night fighting.

And this is wrong. The codex states that he must simply be in your army, not deployed in order for it to be in effect. You can't reroll anything with him not on the board because you need the chronometron's power for that, but there is absolutely no rules backing for it not working if he's in reserve.

Yet "He" is the one performing the roll, because that is the ONLY way that the reroll from the chronometron can work

So can his rule work while off table? The High King rule had to be FAQ'd to work, so does this.

"If the army contains" directly contradicts that statement. His power is always in effect t1, even if he is not on the board. His power also states to roll at the start of each of your shooting phases. No where does it state that he must be on the board to do this. That said, the chonometron power only functions while the cryptek is in play, and as such can only be used if Immotekh is also in play.

The FAQ does not deny anything. You're simply assuming things. All the FAQ did was clarify a very specific situation.

All the FAQ did was change the rules such thaty an army wide power was no longer an army wide power.

No. All it did was clarify that chornometron can be used on it. That doesn't change anything else. You're assuming.

I point your attention to the fact that the FAQ entry is in regards to the chronometron, and NOT immotekh. It changes NOTHING about how immotekh functions. It merely clarifies that if Immotekh is in a unit with a crhonometron, you may use the power to reroll the nightfighting check. That's ALL it does.

It is not errata, it did NOT change any wording. It simply clarified a very specific situation.

...which it can only do IFF the Lord is making the roll, and not the army. Meaning it went from being army wide (noone specifically makign the roll) to character based, as that is the only way the chronometron is allowed to give you the reroll.

Also: forget about the distinction between FAQ and errata. It was NEVER true that FAQs didnt alter rules, and after the Tyranid FAQ volte face on SitW, this is even more clear. Errata or FAQ is irrelevant distinction - GW will happily alter the rules

Is it possible that the nightfighting on turn 1 is an army rule and happens regardless of the presence or absence of immotekh

AND

the 'keep the night fighting going' is an ability of Imotekh, thus requiring him to be on the board (and with the chronometron unit to use it)?

foolishmortal wrote:Is it possible that the nightfighting on turn 1 is an army rule and happens regardless of the presence or absence of immotekh

AND

the 'keep the night fighting going' is an ability of Imotekh, thus requiring him to be on the board (and with the chronometron unit to use it)?

This is how I assume it's supposed to work now. Not that any interpretation seems to have firm footing post-FAQ... What a stupid ruling.

Entirely so.

Previously it was VERY clearly army wide - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Entirely so.

Previously it was VERY clearly army wide - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

No, it wasn't. I believe I pointed this out to you very succinctly at the time, as well. here, let me fix that for you:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Previously it was VERY clearly army wide I insisted upon comparing it to actual army-wide rules for no apparent reason other than the fact that I assumed everything in 40k was a variation of Combat Tactics - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

Is it night-fighting first turn? Yes. This is an effect of having Imotekh in your army. This first-turn element is the only army-wide element to the Lord of the Storm ability. The rest belongs to Imotekh alone.
Can Imotekh re-roll night fighting? yes. This is Imotekh's ability to activate at his discretion.
Can Imotekh do this from reserve? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities while in reserve.
Can Imotekh re-roll for night-fighting when he's dead? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities when they are dead.
Can Imotekh strike with lightning from reserve? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities while in reserve.
Can Imotekh strike with lghtning when he's dead? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities when they are dead.

It's really not that hard...

It wasnt my opinion - find where it stated the Stormlord rolled the dice, like, for example, Warp Time where it specifies who rerolls the dice.

It WAS an army wide rule. It isnt anymore

azazel the cat wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Entirely so.

Previously it was VERY clearly army wide - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

No, it wasn't. I believe I pointed this out to you very succinctly at the time, as well. here, let me fix that for you:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Previously it was VERY clearly army wide I insisted upon comparing it to actual army-wide rules for no apparent reason other than the fact that I assumed everything in 40k was a variation of Combat Tactics - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

<moderation note: this is an inappropriate means to further your point, in that it only invites off-topic reprisals. If you can't discuss civilly, you don't need to discuss at all.>

I don't know what version of Immotekh's rules you're reading, but you're making assumptions.

Lord of the storm is a SINGLE power. It's not multiple things.

In specific, it includes the following text:

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules automatically apply during the first game turn. FURTHERMORE, you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling a D6..."

No where does it state that Imotekh must be on the field for this to be active.

Also, the FAQ states, and I quote: "If an army contains Imotekh the Stormlord can a Cryptek with a chronometron use it to re-roll the roll to see if the Night Fighting special rules stay in effect?"

The answer to this is "Only if Imotekh is in the same unit as the Cryptek with the chronometron"

NOWHERE does this FAQ entry change ANYTHING having to do with Immotekh. It simply adds clarification.

Ergo, Imotekh's power is army wide as clearly stated in his rules in the codex. However, if he is in a unit containing a cryptek with a chronometron that power may be used to allow him to reroll the check.

Now, the chronometron is not army-wide, nor is it a special rule (rather it is a piece of wargear), and as such cannot be used unless it is on the table.

Therefore, the logical reading of the rules is as such:

Turn 1 Night Fighting is in place regardless of if he is on the board or not.
You may roll to continue Night Fighting regardless of if he is on the board or not.
You may NOT re-roll the Night Fighting check unless he is deployed in a unit with a Cryptek w/ Chronometron.

Until you can prove, with rules, where Imotekh's power was changed, you're wrong.

Because you can use a Chronometron to re-roll Imotekh's ability, it must belong to Imotekh. Otherwise the caveat that the Cryptek must be in Imotekh's unit would be pointless.

If the ability belongs to Imotekh, then he cannot use it while he is in reserve, because abilities cannot be triggered while the activating model is in reserve.

WanderingFox wrote:"If your army includesNo where does it state that Imotekh must be on the field for this to be active.

I think that the FAQ only answered half of the the Imotekh/Cronomotron question.

The real conundrum occurs when the chance to roll for it to continue starts on Turn 2. Yes, the Storm happens Turn 1 whether he is on the table or not. Yes, Imotekh can re-roll the result if he is on the board in a unit with a Cryptek with a Chronomotron. But if he can RE-roll it, doesn't that mean he has to be on the table to roll for it in the first place?

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:"If your army includesNo where does it state that Imotekh must be on the field for this to be active.

I think that the FAQ only answered half of the the Imotekh/Cronomotron question.

The real conundrum occurs when the chance to roll for it to continue starts on Turn 2. Yes, the Storm happens Turn 1 whether he is on the table or not. Yes, Imotekh can re-roll the result if he is on the board in a unit with a Cryptek with a Chronomotron. But if he can RE-roll it, doesn't that mean he has to be on the table to roll for it in the first place?

Exactly my point.

I want to agree with Wandering Fox, but the FAQ also has this little Gem:

Q: Must Imotekh the Stormlord roll to see if Night
Fighting continues at the start of the game turn? (p55)
A: No, he can attempt it but isn’t forced to.

Apparently Imhotek IS the one rolling for the Lord of the Storm rule. Regardless, I do agree that the rule confers NF on turn 1 though.

I cringe every time I see someone name a GW employee and make a blanket slur, so I will try to be very specific here. I think a large part of the problem is that game writers (being human) occasionally blur the distinction between I (the player) and I (the model) and write ambiguous text. We have 2 faq entries that clear up most of the procedural questions here. Trying to make sense of the original rule in terms of the implications of the new language may be a lost cause.

It went from an army wide ability (YOU can roll....) to a specific model ability (Imotekh can roll)

Army wide abilities use the "you" when activated; specific model abilities state the model, e.g. Njal, High King, Warp Time, et al.

I see it more as the faq clarified a portion of the ability (the furthermore, keep it going, portion) I do not believe the faq changed the nature of how, when or if the nightfighting starts.

I would say (RAW) that the night fighting starts turn 1 if Imotekh is in your army (on or off the field)
I would say that the Imotekh on the field at the start of a game turn gives you the option of choosing to try and keep it going. (per the faq)
I would say (RAW) killing Imotekh does not remove nightfighting, but does prevent further rolls to keep it going.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It went from an army wide ability (YOU can roll....) to a specific model ability (Imotekh can roll)

Army wide abilities use the "you" when activated; specific model abilities state the model, e.g. Njal, High King, Warp Time, et al.

Please find me a single instance in the BGB that says anyone other than the player, or "you" that rolls dice.

We've been through this before: the Space Marine shoots a gun; I roll the dice.

Why only the BRB?

Warptime. Specifies that the psyker rolls the dice. Already given this as an example

ARMY wide abilities are really obviously written, as are specific abilities.

I don't think army ability vs model ability is as clearly delineated as we might want it to be. In a quick search of the faqs I came up several instances GW transposed the player rolls with model rolls

edit : some examples

Q: If a unit has a special rule that lets it re-roll failed
saves and is being affected by an enemy special rule
that makes them re-roll successful saves how is this
resolved? (p25)
A: Whilst you should technically roll all the dice and
then re-roll them, just roll the saves once and apply the
results to save time.

Q: Do you roll to see if a hit with the Entropic Strike
special rule reduces a vehicle’s armour before rolling for
armour penetration? As all attacks at the same Initiative
are simultaneous, does this mean that other models
with the same Initiative will also roll to penetrate
against the reduced armour value? (p29)
A: Yes to both questions.

Q: Does Warptime allow the psyker to pick and choose
which To Hit and To Wound dice he will re-roll? (p88)
A: No. He can decide after each To Hit or To Wound roll
but he must re-roll all dice or no dice.

The issue results in the fact that this is a FAQ not errata. It cannot, by definition, change wording; it can only clarify.

It does this in the sense that it clarifies the case of Imotekh in a unit with a chrono being able to reroll. It makes no other statement, and yes while it might make sense for that to then imply he must be on the board to roll in the first place, that is not what the faq says.

This is a case of implies (logical) vs if and only if (logical). In this case it is implies. That is to say it only gives permission if the anticedent is true. It makes no claims at all if it is false, therefore nothing has changed from the original wording.


For the record I agree he probably should have to be on the board, but the rules don't support it (what happens if he doesn't come in till turn 3? The way his power is phrased, you would not get anything after 1 turn of night fight as he was unable to roll for it on turn 2).

"The issue results in the fact that this is a FAQ not errata. It cannot, by definition, change wording; it can only clarify. "

Did you read the post I made on this very topic earlier? No?

You are plain WRONG on this. GW have NEVER confined themselves to the errata when changing rules - and if you want a really trivial example of this, the reversal of the SitW ruling via FAQ. You cannot clarify one way and then clarify another without ONE of those ways being a rules change.

WanderingFox wrote:The issue results in the fact that this is a FAQ not errata. It cannot, by definition, change wording; it can only clarify.

I have come to agree with your interpretation of this Imotekh/Chronometron mess. However, I do disagree about your impression of FAQs. The FAQ may not change wording, but they definitely have changed (not clarified, and sometimes refuted) many rules from what is written without an Errata, nor are FAQs written in accordance with any written (or even discernible) definition or code.

Yeah - FAQs can absolutely change rules. Examples: SitW, JotWW, Lash, Blood Lance.

What I mean is they do not change the written text. They use errata for that. Yes they change meaning, but they typically errata to change things like actual changes in phrase.

They change actual rules in those texts as well. To whit SitW, to repeat ad naseum

The roll went from being "you" roll, as in the army's commander rolls [divorced from the model] to the model rolling, as that is the only way that the chronometron is allowed to work

And you still fail to see my point. It did not change the actual phrasing of the power. It simply elaborates on what the power does.

It did not say 'replace the text in x with y'

What I've been trying to say is that it can change the meaning, but not the words themselves. This is important because it makes it implecation instead of if and only if.

Clarifying (in terms of updating meaning) generally does not change the wording of related things.

For example, the cryptek faq is simply elaborating that yes this works in the case of imotekh. It did not, however, change the actual wording of the wargear to read something like "army wide powers that require dice rolls work"

This is important because it means it is only dealing with a specific case, and not blanketly rewording the power.

If there existed another necron hq with a similarly worded power to imotekhs, you would not be able to reroll it despite the faq saying you can for imotekh as it only does so for imotekh.

This also means you can't draw implecations for things the faq does not cover. If it used errata and actually said 'replace x text with y' there is a chance that replacing the text would cause a different interpretation.

Faqs only clarify (read: elaborate on the meaning or function of) things, errata is what they use to actually change the wording.

Its like saying if you behave ill give you icecream.

This means if you behave I MUST give you icecream, but if you don't behave I have no obligation not to. I could be feeling nice and give you ice cream anyway, but that would not invalidate the original statement as it only covers what to do if the condition is true.

Basic propositional logic.

In this case, the condition is imotekh in a unit with a chronometron, and the icecream is the ability to reroll. The faq entry makes no claims as to what happens when he's not in the unit, and therefore none of the orignal wording of his power changes.

No, this FAQ changed the rule.

That isnt clarifying, but that IS what GW quite regularly do

Night Fighting works if Imotekh is in reserve, because the only qualifier for it doing so is having him be part of your army.

So youre using the special rules of a character who is not "in play", without allowance in the rules to do so?

Immotekhs power as well as the crypteks read EXACTLY as they did before the faq... ALL the faq did was clarify the specific situation in which immotekh is in a unit with a chronometron. It does NOTHING else to the rules.

Also worth pointing out you've failed to provide any logical argument to back up your point. You've only made a blanket assumption.

WanderingFox speaks the sweet, sweet truth.

WanderingFox wrote:Immotekhs power as well as the crypteks read EXACTLY as they did before the faq... ALL the faq did was clarify the specific situation in which immotekh is in a unit with a chronometron. It does NOTHING else to the rules.

Also worth pointing out you've failed to provide any logical argument to back up your point. You've only made a blanket assumption.

And, again - no, they changed the rules. I havent made ANY assumption here - I have stated exactly what occured, and showed that your assumption that a FAQ merely "clarifies" was, frankly, rubbish. FAQs change rules ALL the time - here, for example. SitW. Lash. Jaws. etc. YOU have yet to respond in any vaguely logical sense, just repeatedly parroting "clarify! clarify!" as if repetition will alter a basic fact

Prior to the FAQ you could not use the Chronometron, because Imotekh did not "roll" the dice - it was an army power gained through having Imotekh

Now it is a part army, part specific to Imotekh power, so while off the board anything where he is required to "roll" cannot be used, as you have no allowance to do so. So while in reserve - you cannot roll.

MR - yawn, your "contribution" is as valuable as ever

No, you failed to understand what I meant.

You are assuming that stating that the chronometron works on immotekhs power changes the function of his power. It doesn't, it elaborates on what the chronometron does.

That said, if you are making no assumptions, I would like you to cite EXACTLY where in that faq it says that immotekhs power changes.

Also, since you are so hellbent on proving me wrong, show me a faq entry (ie something not listed under errata) that ACTUALLY changes the phrasing of a power. By that I mean it physically says to replace words in the power with other words. I do not simply mean that it changes the understanding of the power since faqs certainly can do this, but actually change the raw of the power.

Also, if you refuse to back up your claim your in violation of ymdc...

Your entire argument is based on the idea that because you can reroll his power, the roll now requires imotekh to be on the board. The faq does not say this. The faq does not say anything about imotekhs power other than that you may reroll it if hes in a unit with a chrono.

That is an explicit exception in regards to the chronometron. It does not change the understanding of his power. It changes the understanding of the chronometron. I also point out the fact that that perticular entry is no where near the rest of the faq entries that deal with imotekh.

With that said, your free to believe as you want. I've given my interpretation, and I've defended it, so im done here.

Edit, also please explain how it functions if imotekh is in reserve until say turn4. Keep in mind that subsiquent means following, so im curious how he can continue night fight if he's in reserve.

It changes the understanding of his power, NOT the chronometron. As this is the most narrow reading of it

If it changes the way the chrono works then you are saying, logically, that the dice roll for random game length can be rerolled by the chrono - as that is an equally "army" roll.

SitW. Changed from not working inside a vehicle to working inside a vehicle. Explicit change int eh rules as written - because either they messed up the first time, and the rules never said that, or they messed up with the second faq. You just seem to have a different idea of "clarify" to everyone else.

I have repeatedly backed up my argument. I have explained whey yours is wrong. Find PERMISSION to use someones special rules while off the table

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, this FAQ changed the rule.

No it didn't. To claim that it changed the rule would be to assume that you were correct prior to the FAQ, which you were not. The rule never changed. Prior to the FAQ there were two conflicting interpretations of the rule, and yours was the incorrect one all along.

GW released a FAQ that proved you to be incorrect, but nothing actually changed.



EDIT:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Find PERMISSION to use someones special rules while off the table

However, this part you do have correct. Imotek's power to roll anything doesn't work when he's off the table. The first turn of NF, however does.

I was correct in terms of the RAW. The FAQ changed the rules. I proved this at the time, and you dissented.

Same as SitW. Same as Jaws. Same as Lash. To assume incorrectly that FAQs dont change rules is a suspect position to hold in the face of all the evidence against it.

I can't even begin to fathom how blindsighted you are... Are you even reading what I'm writing?

There is a difference between changing the MEANING of the wording of something (which faqs most certainly do and I have never disputed this), and them actually changing the wording of a power.

Also, once again, please show me where in that faq entry it says that Immotekh's power changes. All I see is the chronometron being clarified to work with it.

Finally, you dodge my request for a proof yet again.

Show me, with rules backing, exactly how Imotkeh's power functions without contradicting itself if he is kept in reserve until t4.

WanderingFox wrote:I can't even begin to fathom how blindsighted you are... Are you even reading what I'm writing?

First, simmer down.

There is a difference between changing the MEANING of the wording of something (which faqs most certainly do and I have never disputed this), and them actually changing the wording of a power.

Also, once again, please show me where in that faq entry it says that Immotekh's power changes. All I see is the chronometron being clarified to work with it.

You're talking past each other. It is entirely possible to change a rule by changing the meaning of words, without adding or replacing words in a description.

Show me, with rules backing, exactly how Imotkeh's power functions without contradicting itself if he is kept in reserve until t4.

It doesn't. That's the problem.

P1: Models not on the table do not ordinarily impact the battle. See, e.g., this:

Main Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: If a unit is in reserve, and it has an ability that
occurs at the start of a turn can they use that ability on
the turn they arrive? (p94)
A: No. Unless specifically stated otherwise.

P2: A chrono can only be used to reroll rolls of a model in the same unit (per the wargear).
P3: A chrono can be used to reroll the Nightfight effect (per the Necron FAQ).

C1: If the chrono can be used to reroll the Nightfight effect, the Nightfight effect must be a roll being made by the Stormlord. (from P2 & P3)
C2: If the roll is being made by the Stormlord, he cannot choose to make such rolls when he is not on the table. (from C1 & P1)

Previously, we didn't have P3, so P2 didn't matter, and we didn't have to reach C1 or C2; instead, it looked like an army-wide effect, caused by simple inclusion of the Stormlord in the list. But because of P2 & P3, C1 is inevitable, and C2 follows.

As above.

Janthkin, as ever, is far better at summing up than I am.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I was correct in terms of the RAW. The FAQ changed the rules. I proved this at the time, and you dissented.

You were no more correct in terms of RAW as my dissenting opinion. History proved me right and you wrong. Get over yourself.

You called heads and I called tails. The coin didn't change.


Here's my take on it, as it was in December and as it is now:

1. Nightfighting on turn 1 is an army-wide special rule that only requires Imotekh to be in your list.
2. Rolling to continue Night Fighting is Imotekh's ability. It can be re-rolled, and only works when he is on the table as per the BGB.
3. Lightning is Imotekh's ability. it can be re-rolled, and only works when he is on the table as per the BGB.

azazel the cat wrote:2. Rolling to continue Night Fighting is Imotekh's ability. It can be re-rolled, and only works when he is on the table as per the BGB.
3. Lightning is Imotekh's ability. it can be re-rolled, and only works when he is on the table as per the BGB.

In that case, if Imotekh is in Reserve, no Lightning Strikes on turn 1, and Night Fight auto-ends on Turn 2 (as he's not around to roll to extend it).

That is correct: no lightning if he's in reserve; and if he cannot get to the field prior to the start of Turn 2, then he will not arrive in time to attempt his roll.

EDIT: but since the lightning strikes happen during the shooting phase, Imotekh can activate them on the first turn if he gets to the field prior to the start of the shooting phase, such as if he enters the field from reserve through the Monolith's portal during the movement phase (but still after deployment). Of course, this is assuming there is some way to enable him to enter from reserves on Turn 1. However, that element in ancillary.

@Janthkin:

Firstly, I would like to point out that one of the tenants of this forum is to prove, with backing, any argument given (in fact this is the first tenant). If you read this thread Nos fails to do that. He in fact, fails to do so in almost every thread he posts in. To be precise, you are the first person to post any backed evidence to contradict my post in this thread.

It's hard to remain objective when the only counter-argument he provides is the phrase "you're wrong" in various flavors.

You've also failed to understand the concept I'm trying to explain. There is a very big difference between a statement that implies something based on a condition (as in the FAQ entry in question), and something that actually rewords how something is written. Not once in this thread do I claim that a FAQ cannot change the meaning or interpretation of the rules. That is simply a clarification. In order for them to change the text 'as written' they post it in the section under errata.

In the case of the former, it provides an explicit exception to the established rules. It makes no statement on anything else. I will repeat the ice cream example here as that is the simplest way I can make my point:

If someone says a child gets ice cream if he behaves, they make an implication that the child MUST get ice cream if he behaves. They do not, however, also state that the child will not get ice cream if they do not behave. That is merely assumed (in our example, this assumption is not valid given that 40k is a permissive ruleset). The statement makes no claims as to what happens outside of the given condition and result. This is logical implies. In other words, the statement is only invalid when the condition is met but the end result isn't. In all other cases (including when the condition is not met, but the end result is), the statement is valid. Of course, by valid I mean the logical interpretation, that is to say "this statement was not contradicted"

What does this have to do with the FAQ? It means that it is only providing an exception for a specific situation, following it backwards to imply something else is a logical fallacy.

For example, I tell you "If I have a flush, all my cards are red." then any flush I play must be all red in order to not invalidate that statement. It does not mean that if I play a hand of red cads that it must be a flush.

This is exactly what is being claimed. By the argument proposed, due to the fact that a cryptek can reroll the power, you make the assumption that the power is tied to Imotekh's model. This is not the case, the only thing that the FAQ tells you is that you may, explicitly, reroll the power if Imotekh is joined to a unit containing a cryptek with a chronometron.

Secondly, the FAQ entry you quote is invalidated by the wording of Imotekh. Specifically, it tells you that you may use his power so long as the army contains Imotekh. This is not a unit power, but an army power. As far as I know this was the common reading of his power before the FAQ entry. If that is not the case, I'll stand corrected.

That said, nothing in the FAQ entry changes how Imotekh's power itself functions. It is not listed with the rest of Imotekh's FAQ entries, nor is it listed in the errata section of the codex specifically changing Imotekh's wording. In fact, it is listed with all the other cryptek faqs.

In that sense, I ask you how it changed something that is completely unrelated to the question asked (the assumption that imotekh's power is a unit power) when the faq covers something very specific (may I reroll this die under these specific circumstances)?

This is equivalent to me saying "If you wear red on tuesday, I will give you $100" and then you claiming because you wore red on friday that I owe you money. You cannot use a specific example to make a statement about a more general case unless that statement either a: explicitly deals in the general case (the faq entry does not), or b: explicitly changes the wording of the general case (the faq entry does not do this either).


That said, I've seen far too much of this kind of thing lately. Half the posts in YMDC devolve into a "you're wrong, no you're wrong" fight instead of anyone being objective. In fact, the people actually posting quoted evidence (and thus the only ones following the rules of the board) are often attacked rather regularly by the people simply asserting that their view of the situation is correct.

In that light, as my final comment (as I will not be returning to these boards), is that perhaps you should look into more heavily enforcing the rules you claim to moderate.

:He in fact, fails to do so in almost every thread he posts in:

This is a lie. Retract it.

You are ignored until you do so, as you have proven your inability to understand arguments.

WanderingFox wrote:In that light, as my final comment (as I will not be returning to these boards), is that perhaps you should look into more heavily enforcing the rules you claim to moderate.

Given this, I see no point in responding to your post. Too bad - there was room for discussion there.

azazel the cat wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Entirely so.

Previously it was VERY clearly army wide - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

No, it wasn't. I believe I pointed this out to you very succinctly at the time, as well. here, let me fix that for you:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Previously it was VERY clearly army wide I insisted upon comparing it to actual army-wide rules for no apparent reason other than the fact that I assumed everything in 40k was a variation of Combat Tactics - now they seem to have said it is based on the model.

Is it night-fighting first turn? Yes. This is an effect of having Imotekh in your army. This first-turn element is the only army-wide element to the Lord of the Storm ability. The rest belongs to Imotekh alone.
Can Imotekh re-roll night fighting? yes. This is Imotekh's ability to activate at his discretion.
Can Imotekh do this from reserve? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities while in reserve.
Can Imotekh re-roll for night-fighting when he's dead? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities when they are dead.
Can Imotekh strike with lightning from reserve? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities while in reserve.
Can Imotekh strike with lghtning when he's dead? No. Characters cannot use activated abilities when they are dead.

It's really not that hard...

You're not entirely accurate on most of your statements since in the same necron FAQ they allow the veil of darkness to be used from within reserves, and it is a piece of wargear that confers an activated ability.

Also, imotekh's lord of storm ability is not an activated ability because he does not have to use his turn in any way to cause any of it to happen. It does not replace his movement, his shooting, or his assault. Therefore, simply having him in the army allows for this ability to "always" be active until the roll is failed. The chronometron, while similar in use, is different because it is a piece of wargear that can be destroyed when the cryptek is removed from play (or not in play). Imotekh's ability simply happens because he was/is part of the army. His presence on the board is not necessary for its use. I believe there are other units out there that, if included in an army, have the ability to lower the roll required for reserves for instance. Army wide, not an activated skill, and works whether they're on the board or not.

Kevin949 wrote:You're not entirely accurate on most of your statements since in the same necron FAQ they allow the veil of darkness to be used from within reserves, and it is a piece of wargear that confers an activated ability.

Also, imotekh's lord of storm ability is not an activated ability because he does not have to use his turn in any way to cause any of it to happen. It does not replace his movement, his shooting, or his assault. Therefore, simply having him in the army allows for this ability to "always" be active until the roll is failed. The chronometron, while similar in use, is different because it is a piece of wargear that can be destroyed when the cryptek is removed from play (or not in play). Imotekh's ability simply happens because he was/is part of the army. His presence on the board is not necessary for its use.

Here's the problem: the Chronometron can only be used to reroll a member of the unit's roll. If the Chronometron can be used to reroll the "Lord of Storm" roll, then it must mean that it's not an army-wide roll; it's a roll that Imotekh is making. And that makes it look like an used ability (e.g., casting a "start of turn" psychic power).

I believe there are other units out there that, if included in an army, have the ability to lower the roll required for reserves for instance. Army wide, not an activated skill, and works whether they're on the board or not.

None of those abilities require a special roll to activate, and most of them stop if the model granting them is dead. (About the only ones that come to mind that *don't* are some of the SM characters, who replace Combat Tactics.)

At this stage, I have no clue what GW is intending with Imotekh's rules. For my own use, I will follow the chain of logic I provided above - if Imotekh is in Reserves, then his Lightning will not trigger, and the Storm will end at the start of turn 2 (as he's not on the board to roll for it yet).

^ This.



also:

nosferatu1001 wrote::He in fact, fails to do so in almost every thread he posts in:

This is a lie. Retract it.

You are ignored until you do so, as you have proven your inability to understand arguments.

That is just about the best example of a self-defeating argument I have ever seen. If you are ignoring him, then you would never know if he retracted it or not. Just wanted to point that out.

I don't get it, how does this not just mean the chronometron has been updated to "rerolls per phase etc etc. And an army with lord of storms my reroll the check if the storms continues if imotekh is in the same unit as the cryptek with the chronometron".
Why does it how to change the way the storm works instead of the chronometron, if anything the wording in FAQ and book works better this way IMO. For what it's worth I hate the storms and think it would at least be fun if it turned random models into kittens instead.

Because it requires Imotekh to be in the unit with the Chronometron exactly as the rules in the codex state. If it were a change to the Chronometron then the FAQ wouldn't require Imotekh to be in the unit.

So let me see if I have this straight. The current thinking is

A) Night fighting turn 1 is an army wide rule triggered by Imotekh's inclusion on the list. His continued presence on the board is not a requirement. (Killing him brings no light)
B) The lightning at the start of the shooting phase is an Imotekh activated ability - requires his presence on the board to do.
C) The keep the night fighting going is an Imotekh activated ability - requires his presence on the board to attempt.

I have been playing A and C, but previously I had been playing B as part of the night fighting, not requiring Imotekh's presence.

I will have to grab my codex and check the language.

Ghaz wrote:Because it requires Imotekh to be in the unit with the Chronometron exactly as the rules in the codex state. If it were a change to the Chronometron then the FAQ wouldn't require Imotekh to be in the unit.

Well no it would be like having a special effect that only helps certain units. E.G. Liturgies of blood on BA chaplain has a rule the effects more or less everyone and then a special additional part for death company, that doesn't mean liturgies of blood is a death company rule. In this case the models that meet the criteria for the extra part happens to be limited to one unique model unless 2 necron players are playing on a team with 2 imos.

Not saying this is how it is but seeing as we are drawing interpretation of how the FAQ is trying to change rules I feel it's just as reasonable to see the FAQ intending for it to be interpreted this way especially seeing as it's in the cryptek section of the FAQ.


Here's another way you could read it to I guess "an army the contains imotekh in a squad with a cronometron may reroll the nightfighting ".

Keep in mind that if anything it's the cryptek rolling not imo as the faq says "If and ARMY contains imotekh the stormlord can a cryptek with a cronometron use it to re-roll to see if the nightfighting stays in effect? So really imo can die and you can reroll as long as the cryptek lives. Wait who's power is it if 2 units in the army can control it?

Nebulas1 wrote:
Keep in mind that if anything it's the cryptek rolling not imo as the faq says "If and ARMY contains imotekh the stormlord can a cryptek with a cronometron use it to re-roll to see if the nightfighting stays in effect? So really imo can die and you can reroll as long as the cryptek lives. Wait who's power is it if 2 units in the army can control it?

Good catch on the faq language. It actually solidifies the position of the "keep it going" ability being Imotekh's and not army wide. It's misleading if you don't also read the rule for chronometron. Specifically, "If the bearer is in a unit, this ability can be used to instead re-roll one of the unit's D6 rolls each phase"

Thus we have "If and ARMY contains Imotekh the stormlord, can a cryptek with a cronometron use it [the chronometron] to re-roll to see if the nightfighting [Imotekh's ability] stays in effect?"

Azazel - i am not IGNORING him, capitalised using the board tools, as that would be pointless. Credit me with SOME intelligence. I am however ignoring the poster until they retract their lie - which i guess as they have emoragequit they wont

nosferatu1001 wrote:Azazel - i am not IGNORING him, capitalised using the board tools, as that would be pointless. Credit me with SOME intelligence. I am however ignoring the poster until they retract their lie - which i guess as they have emoragequit they wont

Yeah, sorry. I must have confused your saying you would be ignoring him with you ignoring him. Next time I'll try to figure out the double-secret meaning of your word choice?

Sigh.

You see that button called IGNORE, all in caps? Like a defined term (you're in a rules forum, you should know what that means)? Notice how i am ignoring them, not putting them on "IGNORE"

There is a difference, quite a glaring one. I suggest you have a look over how this forum is constructed before posting furhter.

edit : post removed. I was being snarky. My apologies

foolishmortal wrote:

Nebulas1 wrote:
Keep in mind that if anything it's the cryptek rolling not imo as the faq says "If and ARMY contains imotekh the stormlord can a cryptek with a cronometron use it to re-roll to see if the nightfighting stays in effect? So really imo can die and you can reroll as long as the cryptek lives. Wait who's power is it if 2 units in the army can control it?

Good catch on the faq language. It actually solidifies the position of the "keep it going" ability being Imotekh's and not army wide. It's misleading if you don't also read the rule for chronometron. Specifically, "If the bearer is in a unit, this ability can be used to instead re-roll one of the unit's D6 rolls each phase"

Thus we have "If and ARMY contains Imotekh the stormlord, can a cryptek with a cronometron use it [the chronometron] to re-roll to see if the nightfighting [Imotekh's ability] stays in effect?"

It doesn't really specify it's Imotekhs though if anything it suggests a cryptek can use the cronometron to "mimic" an ability in the form of a reroll.

Nebulas1 wrote:It doesn't really specify it's Imotekhs though if anything it suggests a cryptek can use the cronometron to "mimic" an ability in the form of a reroll.

Elsewhere in the FAQ (and this thread...):
Q: Must Imotekh the Stormlord roll to see if Night
Fighting continues at the start of the game turn? (p55)
A: No, he can attempt it but isn’t forced to.

The wording in the codex does not make it clear at all, but the FAQ spells things out rather explicitly. The roll is Imotekh's. It is reasonable to assume that is why Chronometron works on it...because that is how the Chronometron works.

Janthkin wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:You're not entirely accurate on most of your statements since in the same necron FAQ they allow the veil of darkness to be used from within reserves, and it is a piece of wargear that confers an activated ability.

Also, imotekh's lord of storm ability is not an activated ability because he does not have to use his turn in any way to cause any of it to happen. It does not replace his movement, his shooting, or his assault. Therefore, simply having him in the army allows for this ability to "always" be active until the roll is failed. The chronometron, while similar in use, is different because it is a piece of wargear that can be destroyed when the cryptek is removed from play (or not in play). Imotekh's ability simply happens because he was/is part of the army. His presence on the board is not necessary for its use.

Here's the problem: the Chronometron can only be used to reroll a member of the unit's roll. If the Chronometron can be used to reroll the "Lord of Storm" roll, then it must mean that it's not an army-wide roll; it's a roll that Imotekh is making. And that makes it look like an used ability (e.g., casting a "start of turn" psychic power).

I believe there are other units out there that, if included in an army, have the ability to lower the roll required for reserves for instance. Army wide, not an activated skill, and works whether they're on the board or not.

None of those abilities require a special roll to activate, and most of them stop if the model granting them is dead. (About the only ones that come to mind that *don't* are some of the SM characters, who replace Combat Tactics.)

At this stage, I have no clue what GW is intending with Imotekh's rules. For my own use, I will follow the chain of logic I provided above - if Imotekh is in Reserves, then his Lightning will not trigger, and the Storm will end at the start of turn 2 (as he's not on the board to roll for it yet).

Hm...I see what you're getting at but then wouldn't the codex say "if Imotekh is in play" or "If imotekh is on the board" instead of saying "if your army contains"? Even though it does seem that the roll belongs to imotekh, the fact that he is not actively doing anything (in that you don't need to sacrifice part of his turn to do it) would imply, to me, that it's not any kind of...what's the word...special power? Anyway, the fact the codex makes no mention of this rule being negated when he dies should tell you also that it's not constrained to his presence on the field as well (as being dead and being in reserve are similar in game mechanics). It's quite the quandary really, I can see it from both sides but I'm still inclined to say that even from off the board he'd be able to simply because the rule says "if contains" and not "if in play". Also the fact that it's not classified as any kind of psychic power or wargear kind of furthers that point.

Except it HAS to be his roll, otherwise the chronometron could not reroll it.

What I'm getting from this thread is that Imotekh's lightning happens on turn one no matter what, and that he needs to be on the table to continue rolling for it in subsequent turns.

Did I miss anything?

I think that point is still in contention. The Lord of the Storm Ability on p55 necron codex doesn't mention Imotekh in the 2nd paragraph that refers to how the lightning works. It says that "whilst the nightfighting rules remain in play"

Props to GW for using the word whilst.

It seemed like the lightning was just a by-product of the nightfighting, but then the faq said you could use the chronometron to "keep it going" and the whole thing became more open to interpretation.

Yep, it was clearly armybased before hand - no one individual model was rolling the dice. Yes that meant you didnt get a chrono reroll, but it didnt go away if he died, was off the table, etc

The chronometron ruling only works if this is imotekhs roll, because this is the narrowest change to the rules - otherwise you are allowing the chronometron to reroll any D6 anywhere by anyone.

What do you think is the current RAW use of the lightning? Requires or does not require Imotekh on the board?

Yeah, I don't see the Nightfighting as being a separate issue from the Lightning. If there's Night Fighting from Imotekh, there is lightning. To suggest otherwise is just inventing rules for the purpose of sophistry.

In re-reading the rules, the only qualifier on Imotekh's Lord of the Storm ability is having him in your army.

So where does that leave us? By RAW, without inventing rules, it would seem that the Lord of the Storm is active regardless of Imotekh's location from the FAQ ("If your army includes Imotekh"; end of discussion), and that if he's in a unit with a Chronometron and on the table he can re-roll the Night Fighting dice as per the FAQ.

Except if it is "his" roll to continue NF (which it MUST be - otherwise you have altered the Chrono's rules) then he must be on the table - you have no permission to use his rule while off the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except if it is "his" roll to continue NF (which it MUST be - otherwise you have altered the Chrono's rules)

No, you're simply following RAW. You're making this part about "his roll" up. The Codex says one thing, the FAQ says something else. Follow both of those to the letter and you have no issues.

nosferatu1001 wrote:then he must be on the table - you have no permission to use his rule while off the table.

Other than the fact that the only qualifier for Lord of the Storm being active is you including Imotekh in your army, you mean? Other than it saying in black and grayish/white that it happens if you include Imotekh in your army right there in the Codex?

There is no contradiction between this and the Chronometron FAQ. It expands the parameters for extending the Night Fighting rules, but doesn't change the basic game mechanic. To wit: Night Fighting happens if you include Imotekh in your army, page 55 of the Necron Codex. And boom goes the dynamite.

Kevin949 wrote:Hm...I see what you're getting at but then wouldn't the codex say "if Imotekh is in play" or "If imotekh is on the board" instead of saying "if your army contains"? Even though it does seem that the roll belongs to imotekh, the fact that he is not actively doing anything (in that you don't need to sacrifice part of his turn to do it) would imply, to me, that it's not any kind of...what's the word...special power? Anyway, the fact the codex makes no mention of this rule being negated when he dies should tell you also that it's not constrained to his presence on the field as well (as being dead and being in reserve are similar in game mechanics). It's quite the quandary really, I can see it from both sides but I'm still inclined to say that even from off the board he'd be able to simply because the rule says "if contains" and not "if in play". Also the fact that it's not classified as any kind of psychic power or wargear kind of furthers that point.

Plenty of examples of special rules that clearly belong to one model, without requiring that model to actively sacrifice anything (first one off the top of my head - The Swarmlord's ability to give a friendly unit a special rule during the shooting phase has absolutely zero impact on the other things he can do in the Shooting phase).

MR - how are you following RAW, when the chronometron only works when a member of the unit makes the roll?

Or are you ignoring that requirement of the chronometron?

nosferatu1001 wrote:MR - how are you following RAW, when the chronometron only works when a member of the unit makes the roll?

Or are you ignoring that requirement of the chronometron?

It's irrelevant, since you're given explicit permission to do so by the FAQ.

Which isnt supposed to change rules, yes? So the simplest way to look at it is that it "clarifies" the stormlords powers.

It would appear that it had the opposite effect.

And that would be unusual for GW because....?

SitW. BRB FAQ on what constitutes a PSA. Hell, their Lash "clarification" where it is not only a PSA but no longer "auto hits", like it has done since 2007.

Janthkin wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Hm...I see what you're getting at but then wouldn't the codex say "if Imotekh is in play" or "If imotekh is on the board" instead of saying "if your army contains"? Even though it does seem that the roll belongs to imotekh, the fact that he is not actively doing anything (in that you don't need to sacrifice part of his turn to do it) would imply, to me, that it's not any kind of...what's the word...special power? Anyway, the fact the codex makes no mention of this rule being negated when he dies should tell you also that it's not constrained to his presence on the field as well (as being dead and being in reserve are similar in game mechanics). It's quite the quandary really, I can see it from both sides but I'm still inclined to say that even from off the board he'd be able to simply because the rule says "if contains" and not "if in play". Also the fact that it's not classified as any kind of psychic power or wargear kind of furthers that point.

Plenty of examples of special rules that clearly belong to one model, without requiring that model to actively sacrifice anything (first one off the top of my head - The Swarmlord's ability to give a friendly unit a special rule during the shooting phase has absolutely zero impact on the other things he can do in the Shooting phase).

The same could said for zahndreks adaptive tactics as well. It doesn't say you need line of sight to give an ability to one of your guys and its not a roll, so could it be used of board? Keeping in mind it too activates at the start of your turn and during his "anything"phase.

Question about Imotekhs Lightning. Are you allowed cover saves against it since they are originating from him? Or are they considered some weird sort of shooting attack that comes from nothing?

Dok wrote:Question about Imotekhs Lightning. Are you allowed cover saves against it since they are originating from him? Or are they considered some weird sort of shooting attack that comes from nothing?

Only if you are in cover. You are not drawing LoS from Imotekh, as it is part of his board-wide affect. It's not a shooting attack from him, specifically.

@Sasori: Right on, that's kind of what I thought. So a vehivle would never get cover unless it was a skimmer moving flat out, used a cover save psychic power, or had popped smoke.

Or KFF, etc

What about disruption pods?

*runs away*

The "shot" isnt coming from 12"+ away, so nope, they dont work

Dok wrote:Question about Imotekhs Lightning. Are you allowed cover saves against it since they are originating from him? Or are they considered some weird sort of shooting attack that comes from nothing?

I believe the FAQ stated you can get cover saves from it. Which sucks, but whatever. We were playing it where you didn't get saves from it before but I guess that'll have to change too.

*Edit*
Well, I can't find it now. Odd. Maybe I just read it on here then...

No, it was never in the FAQ.

Each part of the Lord of Storm ability has it's own conditions according to the Necron Codex.

Prerequisite: "If your army includes Imotekh"
Result: Night Fighting rules on the first turn.

Prerequisite: (implied Night Fighting rules were in play last turn) "
Result: YOU can keep Night Fighting rules in play by rolling.

Prerequisite: "While Night Fighting rules remained in play..." (Imotekh is NOT required for lightning)
Result: (for each enemy unit) "...on a roll of a 6, that unit is struck by lightning"

So if Imotekh is in your army, Night Fighting and lightning continue each turn independently of Imotekh.

If you go first on the first turn and Imotekh dies from dangerous terrain, on your opponents turn you still roll for lightning and on game turn 2+ you still keep rolling to keep Night Fighting in effect and if it is in effect must roll for lightning.

The FAQ only clarifies that in order to reroll the roll to keep night fighting in play the cryptek with the chrono must be in Imotekhs unit. When the FAQ says "his roll" and "he rolls" it may imply Imotekh is the model rolling, but it does not change the condition granting that roll which is "Your army included Imotekh."

Additionally you cannot get a cover save from the lightning - it is not shot from Imotekh but is a battlefield condition set by "Night Fighting rules remained in play"

Except that ignores that the chrono rules only work if it is Imo making the roll - not the army

If he is not alive, or on the board, he cannot roll.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except that ignores that the chrono rules only work if it is Imo making the roll - not the army

If he is not alive, or on the board, he cannot roll.

I don't see any proof of this statement.

No, if Imotekh is not on alive or on the board, he is not in the same unit as the cryptek. That is why you can't get the reroll, not because Imotekh isn't on the board.

The prerequisite for using a CHrono is ether the cryptek OR A MODEL IN THE UNIT is the one rolling

Meaning Imo MUST be the one rolling.

Meaning if he is off the board / dead / etc he cannot rollm unless you can find specific permission?

nosferatu1001 wrote:The prerequisite for using a CHrono is ether the cryptek OR A MODEL IN THE UNIT is the one rolling

Meaning Imo MUST be the one rolling.

Meaning if he is off the board / dead / etc he cannot rollm unless you can find specific permission?

The only requirement which the FAQ clarifies is for the chrono and that the cryptek can grant a reroll if it is in the same unit as Imotekh.

The specific permission is in the rule setting the requirement to roll: "If your army includes Imotekh" and Night Fighting is still in play, you can roll.

Thus "clarifying" who makes the roll. Imotekh. Or are you saying that they have now changed the Chrono rule so any roll can be rerolled? That's the other option here.

Again: you are missing what specific means. Specific would be "even if Imotekh is dead / off the table you may roll", as the FAQ has changed the rules regarding Imotekh

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thus "clarifying" who makes the roll. Imotekh. Or are you saying that they have now changed the Chrono rule so any roll can be rerolled? That's the other option here.

Again: you are missing what specific means. Specific would be "even if Imotekh is dead / off the table you may roll", as the FAQ has changed the rules regarding Imotekh

Specifically: "If your army includes Imotekh..." and "Furthermore, you can attempt to keep the Night Fighting rules in play in subsequent game turns by rolling...".

Now show me specifically where this permission is revoked.

In the rules for a chronometron, where the only way you can reroll a dice is if Imotekh is rolling it.

Show permission for Imotekh to roll WHILE OFF THE TABLE. Note that "if your army includes..." does not constitute permission.

If you disagree, i'm going to shoot you while in reserves - is that ok?

nosferatu1001 wrote:In the rules for a chronometron, where the only way you can reroll a dice is if Imotekh is rolling it.

Show permission for Imotekh to roll WHILE OFF THE TABLE. Note that "if your army includes..." does not constitute permission.

If you disagree, i'm going to shoot you while in reserves - is that ok?

You can infer and guess what is implied by the FAQ all you want. This does not change the RAW.

Imotekhs Lord of Storm special rule is activated if Imotekh is included in your army. "Furthermore" means in addition to Night Fighting rules being in play you can keep them in play by rolling - if Imotekh has been included in your army.

In order to remove or take away this ability, you must have a rule that specifically states a condition that stops Lord of the Storm. Inferring, and guessing are not part of this discussion per the YMDC guidelines.

Your reasoning is the same as not allowing the ability to effect the game first turn if Imotekh is off the board. The entire special rule, which is granted by Imotekh only requires him to be included in the army.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thus "clarifying" who makes the roll. Imotekh. Or are you saying that they have now changed the Chrono rule so any roll can be rerolled? That's the other option here.

Again: you are missing what specific means. Specific would be "even if Imotekh is dead / off the table you may roll", as the FAQ has changed the rules regarding Imotekh

Actually, nos, there's a third option that you aren't considering.

That would be "The Chronometron can reroll dice rolled by models in the unit, and also the Night-Fighting roll in an army containing Imotekh, if Imotekh is in the unit"

That seems like the most RAW reading to me; it modifies exactly one rule in such a way that everything works, and changes nothing else. It's the smallest change required to reconcile the wording in the various rules and rulings. The FAQ has changed the rules regarding the Chronometron, not Imotekh.

Ok, so forgetting all the round-table arguments going back and forth, there is another entry in the FAQ about Imotekh's ability that states that "he can elect to not roll", and by that FAQ entry it does imply that it is him making the roll. Though I think this is just an oversight in GW wording, unfortunately until it is officially FAQ'd it is something that will have to be decided on before-hand or ruled on by a TO. Suffice to say there is plenty of evidence for BOTH sides of this discussion to be right. If it really came down to it though I would rule on the side of the path of least resistance, requiring Imotekh to be on the board. But since I'm a necron player I'd certainly make my case for why it "should" work with him in reserve.

I agree with Kevin.

Both sides have an argument. I can only hope that the house rules at my local venues go my way.

Nemesor - yet the FAQ also states that HE makes the roll

No inferring required, RAW all the way

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it was never in the FAQ.

I know what I was thinking of now, terror from the deep allows cover saves and that was another FAQ I was looking at and for some reason I confused them. Don't ask me how.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Nemesor - yet the FAQ also states that HE makes the roll

No inferring required, RAW all the way

It really doesn't matter as the Lord of Storm states the specific conditions to continue it and to shoot the lighting.

Imotekh was included in your army = Night Fighting. Night Fighting = roll to continue it. Night Fighting? Lightning.

We're not looking for secret hidden messages here.

Theyre not secret or hidden - the FAQ changes the rules. They often do this with FAQs

nosferatu1001 wrote:Theyre not secret or hidden - the FAQ changes the rules. They often do this with FAQs

Show me where the FAQ says anything about changing the way Night Fight is rolled to keep it going. The FAQ says nothing about conditions for him rolling, only the Codex does. It has always been "his roll", "his lighting" and "his special rule". This changes nothing about how the rule is played. That is explained in the codex.

So, again - if it is HIS roll please show where it says it can be rolled while OFF THE TABLE

Or, again - I'm going to shoot you while off the table.

Edit: perviously it wasnt HIS roll - as nothing in the codex indicated it was. It was his special rule, but not HIS roll to keep it going. This was really clear and unambiguos

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, again - if it is HIS roll please show where it says it can be rolled while OFF THE TABLE

Or, again - I'm going to shoot you while off the table.

Edit: perviously it wasnt HIS roll - as nothing in the codex indicated it was. It was his special rule, but not HIS roll to keep it going. This was really clear and unambiguos

It was always his special rule, so it was his roll. I have already shown this many times now. Again I QUOTE: "If your army includes Imotekh", so it works when he's off the table.

Find where it says IN THE CODEX that HE rolls the dice. It doesnt, it is "you", as in army-you.

Find where it ****SPECIFICALLY**** says it can work while off table. This requires actual wording to the effect. Your quote is meaningless as it is general, not specific.

Again, if you cannot do so then I will start shooting you while in reserve

nosferatu1001 wrote:Find where it says IN THE CODEX that HE rolls the dice. It doesnt, it is "you", as in army-you.

Find where it ****SPECIFICALLY**** says it can work while off table. This requires actual wording to the effect. Your quote is meaningless as it is general, not specific.

Again, if you cannot do so then I will start shooting you while in reserve

This is how it has been played since the codex was released. As a general rule models cannot effect the battle unless they are on the table. The codex specifically overrides this by stating Lord of Storm special rule is in effect "If your army includes Imotekh".

By the way, your responses lack any proof or rules quotes at all. I'm sure myself and others don't know where you're getting your information from.

What, apart from the "you" quote?

RAP not necessarily RAW, btw. Again, in order to work while off table you need to say you can do so - see High King which had to be FAQ'd the turn he arrived.

nosferatu1001 wrote:What, apart from the "you" quote?

RAP not necessarily RAW, btw. Again, in order to work while off table you need to say you can do so - see High King which had to be FAQ'd the turn he arrived.

"If your army includes Imotekh, do X". What does this mean to you?

According to your logic, Lord of Storm does nothing unless Imotekh is on the board, because if he's not, the rule to allow Lord of Storm to work when he's not on the board never gets put in play. What?

Common sense is that if he's included in your army, the entire rule applies until it cancels itself or is specifically canceled by another rule.

Ah, so now youre back to common sense? LOL

Sorry, find the *rule* that *specifically* allows it to work while off the board. See Autarch special rule. See High King FAQ. You need something similar, otherwise you dont get to use the special rule of someone where HE rolls when HE is dead, or off the table

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, so now youre back to common sense? LOL

Sorry, find the *rule* that *specifically* allows it to work while off the board. See Autarch special rule. See High King FAQ. You need something similar, otherwise you dont get to use the special rule of someone where HE rolls when HE is dead, or off the table

"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, the Night Fighting rules automatically apply during the first game turn."

This means he doesn't need to be on the board. Do you disagree?

Ah, apparently you havent read and understood my argument yet.

Look back a bit, see what I'm arguing and what you have missed by a mile, and come back.

Also - does that specify, as in actually STATES, that it works off the table? If so, please show the language that even talks about off the table.

Read Autarch rules. Read High King rule and FAQ. Have the slightest clue what you are attempting to argue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Ah, apparently you havent read and understood my argument yet.

Look back a bit, see what I'm arguing and what you have missed by a mile, and come back.

Also - does that specify, as in actually STATES, that it works off the table? If so, please show the language that even talks about off the table.

Read Autarch rules. Read High King rule and FAQ. Have the slightest clue what you are attempting to argue.

So you are saying Night Fighting only effects the first turn if Imotekh is on the table? Or it works if he's not on the table?

I agree with Dave. The only requirement is that he is included in the army. Lictors pheremone trail specifies in the rule that the lictor must be in play to take effect. Hive commander requires only the tyrant be alive, not in play. Those are their conditions. Imotekh's only condition is that he is included in the army.

What he's saying, that you're missing, is that the FAQ changed the way that you must perceive Imotekh. There are two ways of thinking:

1) The Lord of the Storm is directly linked to Imotekh (allowing the Chronometron to affect the roll).
2) The Lord of the Storm is not directly linked to Imotekh (the Chronometron would not affect this roll).

You're saying 2, and Nos is saying 1. But if 2 is correct, the Chronometron couldn't work, so the roll must be directly linked to Imotekh. If it is directly linked to Imotekh, it limits its use.



Believe me, we all used to agree with you. We all used to be on your side of the argument, just search the forum. Then the FAQ came out.

puma713 wrote:
1) The Lord of the Storm is directly linked to Imotekh (allowing the Chronometron to affect the roll).
2) The Lord of the Storm is not directly linked to Imotekh (the Chronometron would not affect this roll).

Or 3) which is what I'm saying:

The Lord of Storm is not directly linked to Imotekh. The Chronometron affecting his roll is an exception and does not change Lord of Storm because if 1) is true, then it negates the WHOLE Lord of Storm.

This is why Nos is avoiding my question. Because if what he and Puma are saying is true, then unless Imotekh is on the board the first turn, Lord of Storm does not work at all and that contradicts the wording of Lord of Storm itself.

Yep, I'm thinking this is more of a #3 scenario. The new faq language provides for an odd permissive exception for the chronometron, not an errata'd limitation to Imotekh.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

puma713 wrote:
1) The Lord of the Storm is directly linked to Imotekh (allowing the Chronometron to affect the roll).
2) The Lord of the Storm is not directly linked to Imotekh (the Chronometron would not affect this roll).

if 1) is true, then it negates the WHOLE Lord of Storm.

Ummm, how? It would only negate it in two situations:

1) He begins the game off the board.
2) When he dies.

puma713 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

puma713 wrote:
1) The Lord of the Storm is directly linked to Imotekh (allowing the Chronometron to affect the roll).
2) The Lord of the Storm is not directly linked to Imotekh (the Chronometron would not affect this roll).

if 1) is true, then it negates the WHOLE Lord of Storm.

Ummm, how? It would only negate it in two situations:

1) He begins the game off the board.
2) When he dies.

Exactly. You're saying Lord of Storm is completely negated if Imotekh is not on the board. But the Lord of Storm specifies that it works if he's included in the army. There is the contradiction.

You can't have it both ways. Either it works when Imotekh is not on the board and the crono FAQ is an exception. Or it doesn't work at all when Imotekh is not on the board and then it violates the wording of Lord of Storm, and nobody should agree with that.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

You can't have it both ways. Either it works when Imotekh is not on the board and the crono FAQ is an exception. Or it doesn't work at all when Imotekh is not on the board and then it violates the wording of Lord of Storm, and nobody should agree with that.

Either way it is going to be house ruled and a TO will make a decision. Obviously, there are two sides to the argument. I don't have a dog in the hunt, but I see both sides.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Or 3) which is what I'm saying:

The Lord of Storm is not directly linked to Imotekh. The Chronometron affecting his roll is an exception and does not change Lord of Storm because if 1) is true, then it negates the WHOLE Lord of Storm.

This is why Nos is avoiding my question. Because if what he and Puma are saying is true, then unless Imotekh is on the board the first turn, Lord of Storm does not work at all and that contradicts the wording of Lord of Storm itself.

This, which is what I said before. There was an implicit change in the Chronometron rules, not Imotekh's rules. The Chronometron is now allowed to affect one specific (please note; not all) roll which is not directly associated with a model.

Except there is a change in the Lords rules, because it continually refers to it as "his" roll, not the "your" or "you" language in the codex.

As a TO you get the rough with the smooth - you benefit from the chrono (smooth) but if you're dead / off the board you have no permission to roll, so you cannot

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except there is a change in the Lords rules, because it continually refers to it as "his" roll, not the "your" or "you" language in the codex.

As a TO you get the rough with the smooth - you benefit from the chrono (smooth) but if you're dead / off the board you have no permission to roll, so you cannot

But the use of the word 'his' in the FAQ doesn't change the language in the codex. The codex still says "If your army contains". You still meet that condition. The FAQ doesn't contradict that.

You dont get to roll to continue night fighting, because the person rolling isnt on the board.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You dont get to roll to continue night fighting, because the person rolling isnt on the board.

So, just to make sure I have this straight, your argument is;

1. Night Fighting is in effect on the first turn because you took Imotekh, no matter where he is. ("If your army contains. . ." allows this)

2. In order to roll to continue Night-Fighting, Imotekh must be on the table. (The FAQ effectively replaces "you may roll" with "he may roll")

3. Lightning can strike on the first turn, but cannot continue if Imotekh was not on the table at the beginning of the second turn, because he could not roll to continue Night-Fighting.

Correct?

Essentially yes

Idiotic FAQs where the FAQ writer fails to think through their answer....

Mmm, ok. I can see that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Essentially yes

Idiotic FAQs where the FAQ writer fails to think through their answer....

Your whole argument is based on what you believe is implied by the FAQ, not what it clearly states. I can't see the writer of the FAQ having much sympathy for such a deliberate effort to twist the meaning to change a rule that wasn't even in question.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Your whole argument is based on what you believe is implied by the FAQ, not what it clearly states. I can't see the writer of the FAQ having much sympathy for such a deliberate effort to twist the meaning to change a rule that wasn't even in question.

No, it's based off a different FAQ ruling, where the word "he" is used (in relation to Imotekh, the model) rather than "you" in relation to the player. Yes, it's a pedantic point, but it's also valid.

EDIT: Found where it was referenced earlier in this thread.

Kevin949 wrote:Ok, so forgetting all the round-table arguments going back and forth, there is another entry in the FAQ about Imotekh's ability that states that "he can elect to not roll", and by that FAQ entry it does imply that it is him making the roll.

Emphasis added.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As a TO you get the rough with the smooth - you benefit from the chrono (smooth) but if you're dead / off the board you have no permission to roll, so you cannot

No, as a player, you get the rough with the smooth. You can not have your cake and eat it too. You take the good with the bad.

As a TO you get nothing. You have to make tough calls. It's a responsibility, not a fun super power, the exercise of which is usually heartbreaking to at least one person.

I have been a TO many times, not for 40k, but for other games. I hated having to make a tough call. I always tried to make the best call that I could - usually the one that required the fewest leaps of logic and assumptions on my part as possible.

Saying it's the TOs decision until there is clarifying language from GW is true. It's also a cop-out and a weak excuse that should be the last resort of a discussion in a forum like this, not a go-to answer. TOs come to places like this before, during, and after events to get the best thinking they can find from objective, knowledge sources. They have a time window and must issue an immediate judgement. We do not. Surely we can come up with something better.

IMO, the faq language clarifies something you can do with the chronometron
"Q: If an army contains Imotekh the Stormlord can a
Cryptek with a chronometron use it to re-roll the roll to
see if the Night Fighting special rule stays in effect? (p85)
A: Only if Imotekh is in the same unit as the Cryptek
with the chronometron."

It opens the door for a logical interpretation of Imotekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability that would limit the ability beyond the scope of the RAW in the codex. It's a good argument and a solid line of logic, but saying the faq allows for only your interpretation is, at best, a misguided stretch and at worst, arrogant rules bullying.

Saying something is possible is not saying it's probable, nor certain, nor appropriate. The codex describes the Lord of the Storm ability. The faq language tells us something we can do with the Chronometron. I would be interested in hearing what people think about the possible situations that might come up and why they would call it one way or another.

GW and 40k rules in general are detailed but not exhaustive. They cover many, but not all circumstances. We rules lawyers try to fit things into neat, arbitrary categories. We mentally arrange things and reach non-enforceable social contracts with imaginary disputants, then act shocked and amazed that others (real humans) don't see our obvious wisdom.

I am not trying to ruffle feathers, but I am not sorry if I do. I am interested in distilling the argument down to 200 proof truth. That goal is usually not possible, so I settle for "as close as I can get it"

Let the TO decide is not as close as I can get it.

foolishmortal wrote:
I am not trying to ruffle feathers, but I am not sorry if I do. I am interested in distilling the argument down to 200 proof truth. That goal is usually not possible, so I settle for "as close as I can get it"

Let the TO decide is not as close as I can get it.

Erm, sometimes it is. To say that it is not is saying that, "We're going to argue until I'm happy with the outcome!" Well, sometimes, as you pointed out in your post, it doesn't work that way. Both sides of the argument have explained, clearly, why they believe what they do. So, we're at an impasse. There are two ways to read this rule and there is evidence for both sides of the argument. Therefore, if neither side is moving, there will be no "as close as you can get." because resolving it at the tabletop (preferably before the game) is, in fact, as close as you can get.

foolishmortal - that was ME saying for ME, as a TO, "you" as in the Necron player gets the rough with the smooth

I don't have a problem with people disagree or coming to an outcome that I am not happy with. (well, no more so than many other humans)

My frustration at this time is that a RAI argument is being passed off as RAW and no one seems to see the difference or object to the presumption of mind reading.

foolishmortal wrote:I don't have a problem with people disagree or coming to an outcome that I am not happy with. (well, no more so than many other humans)

My frustration at this time is that a RAI argument is being passed off as RAW and no one seems to see the difference or object to the presumption of mind reading.

But it's not a RAI argument. Look at my post above. . . there IS, in fact, a written basis for this. If you've got an equally-supported response to that, we'd all be glad to hear it, I'm sure.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The Lord of Storm is not directly linked to Imotekh. The Chronometron affecting his roll is an exception and does not change Lord of Storm because if 1) is true, then it negates the WHOLE Lord of Storm.

This is why Nos is avoiding my question. Because if what he and Puma are saying is true, then unless Imotekh is on the board the first turn, Lord of Storm does not work at all and that contradicts the wording of Lord of Storm itself.

I completely agree with this.