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Post by: Frazzled
http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-protest-rekindles-debate-flag-burning-235217435.html
Occupy protest rekindles debate about flag-burning
By BETH DUFF-BROWN and TERRY COLLINS | Associated Press
Many in the crowd outside Oakland City Hall shouted "Burn it! Burn it!" as masked protesters readied to set fire to an American flag. That's when a woman emerged from the scrum, screaming for them to stop, that it would hurt the cause.
Moments later, the flames began, and suddenly a movement that seemingly vanished weeks ago was back in the spotlight, this time for an act of protest that has long divided the nation and now the movement itself.
The images of the flag-burning went viral in the hours after Saturday's demonstrations on Oakland's streets, with Occupy supporters denouncing the act as unpatriotic and a black mark on the movement. Others called it justified.
The flag-burning, however, raised questions about whether the act will tarnish a movement of largely peaceful protests and alienate people who agree with its message against corporate excess and economic inequality.
"I'm quite confident that the general view is that violence of this sort — whether it's symbolic or otherwise — is contrary to the spirit of the movement and should be renounced," Columbia University sociologist Todd Gitlin said.
Gitlin, who is writing a book about the movement, noted that flags have had a prominent place at the Occupy Wall Street encampments that sprang up last fall. They are typically pinned to tents or waving from wooden flagpoles.
"I was thinking how they have come to embrace the American flag as a hallmark of this movement; it's very common to see American flags honored and elevated at these encampments," he said.
Flag-burning has been a powerful symbol since the days of the anti-Vietnam War movement. Congress at the time passed a law to protect the flag in 1968, and most states followed suit.
In 1989, the U.S. Supreme Court decided such laws were unconstitutional restrictions on free speech. The court's decision set off a move in Congress to pass a constitutional amendment to prohibit desecration of the flag. An attempt in 2006 failed by only one vote in the Senate.
In Oakland, social activism and civic unrest have long marked the rough-edged city across the bay from San Francisco. Beset by poverty, crime and a decades-long tense relationship between the police and residents, its streets have seen many clashes, including anti-draft protests in the 1960s that spilled into town from neighboring Berkeley.
At Occupy Oakland, flag-burning is nothing new. A well-known Bay Area activist burned three during protests that temporarily shut down the Port of Oakland in November.
Troy Johnson, an Occupy Oakland member, said he arrived just in time Saturday to watch his friend, whom he would not name in order to protect his identity, emerge from City Hall with an American flag in tow.
"He asked the crowd, 'What do you want us to do with the flag?'" Johnson recalled. "They said, 'Burn it! Burn it! Burn it!'"
As many egged on the bandanna-masked men, lighters were passed around. A photographer on assignment for The Associated Press said a woman rose from among the crowd to urge against the flag-burning. She then threw the flag to the ground and tried to put out the fire, shouting at them that it would only hurt their cause.
The fire-starter is not an anarchist, but a typical member of Occupy Oakland who feels the system has failed them, said Johnson, who pulled out his cellphone to show his recording of the flag-burning.
"I would describe him as someone who loves his country, but also disappointed in the system that's running this country," said Johnson, who goes by the nickname "Uncle Boom" and was a sergeant in the U.S. Army.
Johnson said he wouldn't stop the flag-burning because the country is based on freedom of speech and expression.
"To the veterans who fought for this country, I wholeheartedly apologize," he said. "Because when they took the oath to join the military, they fought for the flag. But they also fought for the right to express ourselves."
Another Occupy member, Sean Palmer, who served in the Marines, said he opposed flag-burning. "I think they should've hung it upside down, because that's the international call for distress and that's what we are, in distress," Palmer said.
Saturday's protest culminated in rock- and bottle-throwing and volleys of tear gas from the police, as well as the City Hall break-in that left glass cases smashed, graffiti spray-painted on the walls and, finally, the flag-burning.
Police said more than 400 people were arrested; at least three officers and one protester were injured.
Police said Monday that they were still trying to determine how many of those arrested were from Oakland. In the past, the majority of those arrested in Occupy sweeps were not Oakland residents and this has rankled city officials. Mayor Jean Quan has called on the loosely organized movement to "stop using Oakland as its playground."
Officials said vandalism and activities related to Occupy Oakland have cost the financially strapped city $5 million since October.
Oakland Councilwoman Libby Schaaf said she was disgusted not to see the American and California flags atop the grand staircase inside City Hall on Monday. The destruction to her workplace couldn't have come at a worse time as the city is grappling with closing a $28 million budget deficit.
"To do this to us in a week were we have to lay off so many city workers is so unconscionable," Schaaf said.
Protester Julion Lewis-Tatman said he led the crowd in the plaza outside City Hall, but did not take part in the flag-burning.
"I love this country to death, but burning the flag means nothing to me," he said. "We're burning down the old system and we're starting a new country."
___
Beth Duff-Brown reported from San Francisco. Deepti Hajela contributed to this story from New York.
___
Online:
AP interactive: http://hosted.ap.org/interactives/2011/wall-street-protest/
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Post by: Joey
Never seen why you'd want to burn your own flag. It's going to hurt support for your cause if you run around setting fire to symbols of your nation.
Why not take a piss on a bald eagle while they're at it? Smelly hippies.
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Post by: CptJake
I think that final quote in the article sums it all up. They are a bunch of anarchists, no loyalty to anyone but themselves. Any symbol of the country is going to be worthy of their scorn... They WANT to burn it all down. Burning a symbol is symbolic of that.
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Post by: Frazzled
Joey wrote:Never seen why you'd want to burn your own flag. It's going to hurt support for your cause if you run around setting fire to symbols of your nation.
Why not take a piss on a bald eagle while they're at it? Smelly hippies.
The funny part is, I'm 99.999% sure the flag was made in China. 
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Post by: The Foot
They could also make a pinata that looks like Uncle Sam. IMO I don't think anyone takes them seriously anyway. Most people don't even know what the various arms of Occupy are about. (including me)
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Post by: hotsauceman1
Frazzled wrote:Joey wrote:Never seen why you'd want to burn your own flag. It's going to hurt support for your cause if you run around setting fire to symbols of your nation.
Why not take a piss on a bald eagle while they're at it? Smelly hippies.
The funny part is, I'm 99.999% sure the flag was made in China.
Lol, One time at scouts we all got tiny flag. Someone said outloud "Why does this say 'Made in Chine'?"
But yeah. It does seem weird to burn a flag. But heck its their right to do it aslong as they do it safely.
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Post by: d-usa
I honestly feel that it should be legal to burn the flag. The flag holds a special place in my heart and stand for all our freedoms. But I feel that restricting a freedom to protect a symbol would make that symbol meaningless.
I do think that burning the flag is disrespectful and stupid, and they didn't help their cause any, but stupidity and legality are two separate things IMO.
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Post by: Frazzled
I agree. If its their flag (when the protesters broke into the City Hall they actually tore down the flags and burned them there) and its not a fire hazard they can do that.
It just shows a bit of their true colors. You wouldn't see that at a UAW strike.
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Post by: Joey
For the benefit of Americans, you are the only ones who're obsessed with burning your flag. We in Britain have the freedom to burn our flag if we wanted to...but then, why would you?
The only people who burn the British flag are people who hate Britain/British things, like those mental Muslims you get sometimes. But your run of the mill protestor would never burn the Union Flag.
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Post by: biccat
I wasn't aware there was any debate about flag burning. I thought we were all generally on the same page on the issue:
It's legal to burn flags. People who burn flags are donkey-caves.
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Post by: Grakmar
I think that Occupy movement started with somewhat valid reasons (Government bailouts and protecting only the rich is unfair). Since then, it has evolved into the standard "young people" protest ("We hate everything, love the idea of a counter-culture, and enjoy protesting about issues we don't really understand because it makes us feel like we belong to something.") It's a real shame, because it's turned an issue that we could really have had a debate about into a fringe thing that only wackos support.
As for the flag burning, I'm against it, but I'll fight to for the right to do it.
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Post by: CptJake
Joey wrote:For the benefit of Americans, you are the only ones who're obsessed with burning your flag. We in Britain have the freedom to burn our flag if we wanted to...but then, why would you?
The only people who burn the British flag are people who hate Britain/British things, like those mental Muslims you get sometimes. But your run of the mill protestor would never burn the Union Flag.
For the benefit of the Brits, we also have the freedom to burn our flag if we want to*. And some crap bags obviously want to. And I have the freedom to consider them crap bags, especially when they steal the flags to begin with. * United States v. Eichman (1990) is a good example.
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Post by: Squidmanlolz
Flag-burning keeps ya warm and toasty during the winter months. Given the conditions of the Occupy camps, it was probably an act of survival.
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Post by: AustonT
biccat wrote:I wasn't aware there was any debate about flag burning. I thought we were all generally on the same page on the issue:
It's legal to burn flags. People who burn flags are donkey-caves.
It should be legal to have the gak kicked out of you if you exercise that right, jus not by the cops.
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Post by: dogma
I've never understood the reverence for the flag, at least not on an emotional level. But then nationalism is also vexing to me.
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Post by: Squidmanlolz
dogma wrote:I've never understood the reverence for the flag, at least not on an emotional level. But then nationalism is also vexing to me.
I see where you're coming from here, it is (at face value) only an identification marker for a country. It becomes more than that to people who see themselves as a sort of extension of their country.
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
I say burn em all. I have spent alot of time at occupy oakland and fully support any actions they make. This nation is not for the people anymore and I would proudly burn a symbol of corporate greed
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Post by: biccat
Johnny-Crass wrote:I say burn em all. I have spent alot of time at occupy oakland and fully support any actions they make. This nation is not for the people anymore and I would proudly burn a symbol of corporate greed
Damn, I thought you were saying burn all the Occupy protestors.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by: Coolyo294
OWS is still going on?
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
Coolyo294 wrote:OWS is still going on?
Yes sir no matter what the corporate media tells you it is still going on.
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Post by: juraigamer
You're supposed to capture the flag, not burn it.
Wait, what?
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Post by: dogma
Squidmanlolz wrote:It becomes more than that to people who see themselves as a sort of extension of their country.
Sure, that concept is easily understood in an intellectual sense. Its like how I understand fanbois. Person X likes thing Y enough to do terrible and stupid things in the name of thing Y.
But I don't look at the causal chain of those events and feel (as distinct from think) "Oh yeah, of course."
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Post by: aosol
Considering the occupy protest in wrapped in the idea of " f*ck this nonsense" burning a flag isn't too far of a stretch.
My personal experience of the occupy movement was a trip visiting a friend in NYC. While waiting for my friend to come out his office I meandered through basically became a tourist sighting, I stood and watched as 2 well groomed and well grown, gay Wallstreet men danced, laughed and kissed to the drum beats in Zuccotti Park. I found it some levels of dramatic irony in the situation.
Personally I'm not offended by such behavior not because I agree with it but, because you should be free to express yourself given the flag isn't drapped around someone. If anything that person is out 30-40 bucks buying a properly sized flag to express their rage. That or have stolen it off of their school's or neighbor's pole.
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Post by: Squidmanlolz
If you purchase a flag just to burn it, where's the message.
Let's give flag companies 30-40 dollars to set it on fire in public.
It's kinda like pulling out 30-40 dollars and setting it on fire in public, it doesn't add up and only offends those to whom the money is truly important (isn't that who the Occupy movement is trying to help?)
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Post by: AustonT
Johnny-Crass wrote:I say burn em all. I have spent alot of time at occupy oakland and fully support any actions they make. This nation is not for the people anymore and I would proudly burn a symbol of corporate greed
Bwahahaha! My opinion of you based on this statement is unpublishable on Dakka, luckily if you hate that symbol of corporate greed and all it entails you are still welcome to leave. Perhaps Peru or Syria?
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Post by: Asherian Command
This is interesting. I am against flag burning but seriously?
That is a waste of a flag. At least you could hold it up and scream "This is their flag now! SO feth them!"
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
AustonT wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:I say burn em all. I have spent alot of time at occupy oakland and fully support any actions they make. This nation is not for the people anymore and I would proudly burn a symbol of corporate greed
Bwahahaha! My opinion of you based on this statement is unpublishable on Dakka, luckily if you hate that symbol of corporate greed and all it entails you are still welcome to leave. Perhaps Peru or Syria?
Or I could have a spine and stay in this nation and fight it out one step at a time. People who say if you dont like it leave are just so single minded. If you dont like it you stay and fight it until it goes away.
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Post by: WarOne
dogma wrote:I've never understood the reverence for the flag, at least not on an emotional level. But then nationalism is also vexing to me.
Your one of the lucky few then, for those feelings are what spawn confrontation and resentment, broadly brush stroking whole swaths of people in a nation to one generalization.
Nationalism and patriotism tie themselves to flags as flags are an ancient symbol of power and strength to those who see their visual power. For one to feel that kind of emotional energy generated, you have to be there for when the flag means something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fort_McHenry#Fort_McHenry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_at_Ground_Zero
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_San_Juan_Hill
Some will genuinely feel nothing for such events and their symbolic meaning, but the truth of the matter is that people see the flag as a source of inspiration and motivation during times of distress and turmoil.
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Post by: CT GAMER
faux-outrage over stuff like this is a nice way to distractt attention from the real issues people should be outraged about...
I don't have time for homless, jobless Americans, addressing criminal greed, or institutional corruption, I have to stop those kids from burning that piece of cloth... 
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Post by: CptJake
Well, you do have to admit that breaking into and causing several million dollars of damage to a public building wasn't really sticking it to Corporate America as much as to the tax payers in Oakland...
The flag burning (of a looted flag) just shows the mentality of these punks.
"Burn It Down"... They are not FOR anything. They don't want to make positive changes. They want to destroy.
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
And out of the ashes will rise something the American people can truly believe in
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Post by: alarmingrick
CT GAMER wrote:faux-outrage over stuff like this is a nice way to distractt attention from the real issues people should be outraged about...
I don't have time for homless, jobless Americans, addressing criminal greed, or institutional corruption, I have to stop those kids from burning that piece of cloth...
CT has said almost what I was feeling. Homelessness/joblessness is a much bigger issue than this crap.
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Post by: CptJake
Johnny-Crass wrote:And out of the ashes will rise something the American people can truly believe in
Except your favored group cannot describe their vision for a future, and have no plan to enable the building of the future they can't describe.
All they can do is burn loot and destroy. They are not producers nor visionaries. They are anarchist crap bags.
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
CptJake wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:And out of the ashes will rise something the American people can truly believe in
Except your favored group cannot describe their vision for a future, and have no plan to enable the building of the future they can't describe.
All they can do is burn loot and destroy. They are not producers nor visionaries. They are anarchist crap bags.
Can the current American government describe their vision for our future? No they are to busy stuffing their pockets with money made on the backs of the poor. I would rather be a anarchist crapbag than a corporate stooge or a nationalist lemming
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Post by: alarmingrick
CptJake wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:And out of the ashes will rise something the American people can truly believe in
Except your favored group cannot describe their vision for a future, and have no plan to enable the building of the future they can't describe.
All they can do is burn loot and destroy. They are not producers nor visionaries. They are anarchist crap bags.
This could also be said about Neocons:
All they can do is burn loot and destroy. They are not producers nor visionaries. They are crap bags.
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Post by: CT GAMER
CptJake wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:And out of the ashes will rise something the American people can truly believe in
Except your favored group cannot describe their vision for a future, and have no plan to enable the building of the future they can't describe.
All they can do is burn loot and destroy. They are not producers nor visionaries. They are anarchist crap bags.
You make the assumption that everyone involved are equal in all respects, be it ideology, education, motivation, etc..
Certainly you have an element involved that are clueless, posers, simply cashing in on the chance to pretend to be "revolutionaries", etc., etc.
But to paint everyone with the same broad brush says alot more about you then it does about them tbh...
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Post by: Melissia
The flag is used politically all the time, I don't see why people who disagree with the nation's actions can't also use it politically.
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Post by: Squidmanlolz
CT GAMER wrote:CptJake wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:And out of the ashes will rise something the American people can truly believe in
Except your favored group cannot describe their vision for a future, and have no plan to enable the building of the future they can't describe.
All they can do is burn loot and destroy. They are not producers nor visionaries. They are anarchist crap bags.
You make the assumption that everyone involved are equal in all respects, be it ideology, education, motivation, etc..
Certainly you have an element involved that are clueless, posers, simply cashing in on the chance to pretend to be "revolutionaries", etc., etc.
But to paint everyone with the same broad brush says alot more about you then it does about them tbh...
I think that about sums it all up.
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Post by: CT GAMER
Melissia wrote:The flag is used politically all the time, I don't see why people who disagree with the nation's actions can't also use it politically.
Agreed. People hide behind it and wave it all the time in attempts to tie their own political intents with patriotism, even when it isn't warrented.
I'd say the flag wavers themselves have made the flag so tempting to groups like this by their own forced reverence for it...
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Post by: Chowderhead
They could just not like the way America is going, and want to change it. So they take a symbol of America and burn it. Because their angry.
Now, I don't think that stealing that flag was good. I agree with OWS, but that's a bit far out.
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Post by: Frazzled
Johnny-Crass wrote:I say burn em all. I have spent alot of time at occupy oakland and fully support any actions they make. This nation is not for the people anymore and I would proudly burn a symbol of corporate greed
And I've never been so proud of giving the finger (while drinking coffee) to the OWS Houston march.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
biccat wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:I say burn em all. I have spent alot of time at occupy oakland and fully support any actions they make. This nation is not for the people anymore and I would proudly burn a symbol of corporate greed
Damn, I thought you were saying burn all the Occupy protestors.
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
You'd have to get past their natural defense mechanism (lack of bathing). When you reak more than a wiener dog's breath, its time to find some soap.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Johnny-Crass wrote:AustonT wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:I say burn em all. I have spent alot of time at occupy oakland and fully support any actions they make. This nation is not for the people anymore and I would proudly burn a symbol of corporate greed
Bwahahaha! My opinion of you based on this statement is unpublishable on Dakka, luckily if you hate that symbol of corporate greed and all it entails you are still welcome to leave. Perhaps Peru or Syria?
Or I could have a spine and stay in this nation and fight it out one step at a time. People who say if you dont like it leave are just so single minded. If you dont like it you stay and fight it until it goes away.
You're not fighting. you're just smelling. If you were fighting you'd try that stunt around some steel workers or some Permian basin roughnecks. Then there would be a fight.*
*Not really, unless being beaten to death within seconds constitutes fighting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CptJake wrote:Well, you do have to admit that breaking into and causing several million dollars of damage to a public building wasn't really sticking it to Corporate America as much as to the tax payers in Oakland...
The flag burning (of a looted flag) just shows the mentality of these punks.
"Burn It Down"... They are not FOR anything. They don't want to make positive changes. They want to destroy.
In their defense, they seem to want to destroy Oakland. Thats like saying you're going to destroy Detroit. "Wait Detroit is still standing?" would be the most common response.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Johnny-Crass wrote:And out of the ashes will rise something the American people can truly believe in
The Great Spaghetti Being?
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Post by: Johnny-Crass
Frazzled your response of violence is typical of those who hold strong nationalistic ties or who use brute force to enforce the militaristic oppression of the poor. You stereotype us as the dirty drumcircle hippie but honestly they are the minority in the OWS movement. I have seen so many kinds of people march beside me and I am proud to be one of them. All the bullets, teargas, pepper spray and government oppression in the world will not silence the idea of equality.
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Post by: Frazzled
Johnny-Crass wrote:Frazzled your response of violence is typical of those who hold strong nationalistic ties or who use brute force to enforce the militaristic oppression of the poor. You stereotype us as the dirty drumcircle hippie but honestly they are the minority in the OWS movement. I have seen so many kinds of people march beside me and I am proud to be one of them. All the bullets, teargas, pepper spray and government oppression in the world will not silence the idea of equality.
Pff. I see you jokers every day near work. Its so hard to tell the difference between the protesters and the homeless guys hanging out. At least the homeless are honest about it. The OWS guys are just a joke. All 8 of you.
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Post by: Squidmanlolz
Frazzled wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:Frazzled your response of violence is typical of those who hold strong nationalistic ties or who use brute force to enforce the militaristic oppression of the poor. You stereotype us as the dirty drumcircle hippie but honestly they are the minority in the OWS movement. I have seen so many kinds of people march beside me and I am proud to be one of them. All the bullets, teargas, pepper spray and government oppression in the world will not silence the idea of equality.
Pff. I see you jokers every day near work. Its so hard to tell the difference between the protesters and the homeless guys hanging out. At least the homeless are honest about it. The OWS guys are just a joke. All 8 of you.
I see what you did there
In my opinion, OWS has the right idea but is going about it in the wrong way. You can't win this kind of thing without manipulating politics to get your back, it's underhanded and tricky but the only way to change the government is from the inside. Also, a group of cohesive leaders or some kind of organizers might help .
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Post by: AustonT
Johnny-Crass wrote:Frazzled your response of violence is typical of those who hold strong nationalistic ties or who use brute force to enforce the militaristic oppression of the poor. You stereotype us as the dirty drumcircle hippie but honestly they are the minority in the OWS movement. I have seen so many kinds of people march beside me and I am proud to be one of them. All the bullets, teargas, pepper spray and government oppression in the world will not silence the idea of equality.
ha ha FFS, this keeps getting better and better! WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!
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Post by: Chowderhead
Johnny, I'm saying this as a friend.
Arguing against Frazzled is like trying to demolish a brick wall with a stick of butter.
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
Johnny-Crass wrote:And out of the ashes will rise something the American people can truly believe in
Really? What are you...12?
Did that work for South Africa? The USSR?
Out of the ashes will rise...absolutely nothing. The only ashes these people make comes from flags and weed.
If you want change use the system to do so. Making asses of yourselves does nothing for your "cause". Actually having a cause would help too.
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Post by: Frazzled
Chowderhead wrote:Johnny, I'm saying this as a friend.
Arguing against Frazzled is like trying to demolish a brick wall with a stick of butter.
If the brick wall were annoying and powered by the spirit of Dachshundskrieg! 
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Post by: Chongara
What about burning things somewhat flag themed, like say an American Flag T-Shirt, or American Flag Bikini?
What if you burn the flag, but then feed the ashes to a bigger flag. Making it stronger.
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Post by: Bromsy
Burn a flag if you want.... busting up city hall to steal flags to burn is gak kid behavior, not protesting. Seriously, are the corporations going to be forced to replace/fix that stuff? Jesus, support the general ideas behind the OWS stuff if you want, but the Oakland guys are just doing the loot burn destroy idiot crap that makes people look down on and hate the whole shebang.
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Post by: Ouze
biccat wrote:I wasn't aware there was any debate about flag burning. I thought we were all generally on the same page on the issue:
It's legal to burn flags. People who burn flags are donkey-caves.
As they say, "Seriously, biccat gave the perfect response to this topic".
I wholly believe flag burning is a constitutional right, and it's a really tasteless thing to do under nearly any circumstance. Shameful and disgraceful.
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Post by: remilia_scarlet
the occupy protest is going to be going on for a while, since the protesters are, at this point, just the dregs of society, since all the functioning members are either
A) going to work/school
B) looking for work
C) have something better to bo
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Post by: dogma
Johnny-Crass wrote:Frazzled your response of violence is typical of those who hold strong nationalistic ties or who use brute force to enforce the militaristic oppression of the poor.
No one in the United State is oppressed, militaristically or otherwise. If you want to see people who are oppressed, there are plenty of nations I'm willing to buy you plain ticket to visit. Of curse, I can't promise you a two-way ticket, I'm on a budget after all.
Johnny-Crass wrote:
All the bullets, teargas, pepper spray and government oppression in the world will not silence the idea of equality.
I see we aren't terribly familiar with North Korea. Automatically Appended Next Post: Frazzled wrote:
Pff. I see you jokers every day near work. Its so hard to tell the difference between the protesters and the homeless guys hanging out. At least the homeless are honest about it. The OWS guys are just a joke. All 8 of you.
To be fair, taking the OWS protester in Texas as emblematic of OWS protester in general is a lot like taking Republican politicians from New York as emblematic of the Republican Party in general.
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Post by: Ouze
dogma wrote:No one in the United State is oppressed, militaristically or otherwise. If you want to see people who are oppressed, there are plenty of nations I'm willing to buy you plain ticket to visit.
There sure is a lot of room under that umbrella. Just because something is worse someplace else doesn't mean it isn't bad here. if a black guy gets dragged to death behind a pickup in texas for being black, it's not negated by the fact there are more common injustices elsewhere.
Or do I misunderstand what you mean?
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Post by: Bromsy
Pics or it didn't happen? And dogma, I've heard a lot about the people of Bavaria being oppressed, and if you want to buy me a plane ticket out there for a fact finding mission, say in late September or early October I would be happy to find my own way home.
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Post by: Scrabb
Johnny-Crass wrote:Frazzled your response of violence is typical of those who hold strong nationalistic ties or who use brute force to enforce the militaristic oppression of the poor....
Says the guy who needs the ashes of his country to build something worth believing in.
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Post by: Ouze
Bromsy wrote:Pics or it didn't happen?
It happened.
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Post by: dogma
Ouze wrote:
There sure is a lot of room under that umbrella. Just because something is worse someplace else doesn't mean it isn't bad here. if a black guy gets dragged to death behind a pickup in texas for being black, it's not negated by the fact there are more common injustices elsewhere.
Or do I misunderstand what you mean?
I suppose I should have specified, "oppressed by the state" is what I meant.
I'd also probably argue that if there are places where people are oppressed by private actors, there aren't many of them, and they probably only marginally qualify as oppression.
Basically Jim Bob and his buddies that really hate black people probably can't oppress them due to physical limitations. Automatically Appended Next Post: remilia_scarlet wrote:the occupy protest is going to be going on for a while, since the protesters are, at this point, just the dregs of society, since all the functioning members are either
A) going to work/school
B) looking for work
C) have something better to bo
There's these magical things called "wi-fi", "3G", and "4G" that make it fairly easy to look for a job at any protest, not just an OWS protest. They even make it possible for you to do work, as not everyone works out of an office. I also imagine that Angry Birds is a popular diversion for many protesters.
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Post by: Ouze
dogma wrote:I suppose I should have specified, "oppressed by the state" is what I meant
Fair enough.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
I don't really see the big deal with flags - I'm one of those delightful liberal lefties that doesn't really understand nationalism, I'm afraid - but as Wall Street and the bankers who are supposedly the target of this movement do not equal America as a whole by any stretch of the imagination, I can only conclude that this was the action of a bunch of weekend revolutionaries, who turn up, wreck everything, then chortle about how they "stuck it to the maaaaaaan" while the rest of us find our positions weakened when we ask for genuine reform due to the behaviour of a minority.
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Post by: ParatrooperSimon
If someone was burning a Canadian/New Zealand flag, I would just nock their lights out, and tell them to stop their whining and harden up and deal with it. IMO if you burn a countries flag, you deserve to be shot...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm very left, like very left, but when it comes to flags... you burn them, I burn your balls off...?
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Post by: d-usa
ParatrooperSimon wrote:If someone was burning a Canadian/New Zealand flag, I would just nock their lights out, and tell them to stop their whining and harden up and deal with it. IMO if you burn a countries flag, you deserve to be shot...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm very left, like very left, but when it comes to flags... you burn them, I burn your balls off...?
Because a piece of cloth is more important than a persons life. Hyperbole much?
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
ParatrooperSimon wrote:If someone was burning a Canadian/New Zealand flag, I would just nock their lights out, and tell them to stop their whining and harden up and deal with it. IMO if you burn a countries flag, you deserve to be shot...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm very left, like very left, but when it comes to flags... you burn them, I burn your balls off...?
That's not very left-wing of you.
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Post by: dogma
ParatrooperSimon wrote:IMO if you burn a countries flag, you deserve to be shot...
What about, say, Iran, or North Korea, or Somalia?
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Post by: Mr. Burning
OWS is acting a lot like Miley Cyrus.
They jabber on about nothing in particular and when noone is looking at them any more decide to get a bit edgier for a bit of attention.
OWS problem is that they have protestors' from so many different backgrounds. Sure, the claim is that they are standing up to the 1% but they them selves are between 2 and 100% with widely differnt aspirations. They are held back by this knowledge too, I think. They know that to be heard they need a single voice, who will that voice be and what will it say?
.
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Post by: Monster Rain
Mr. Burning wrote:They jabber on about nothing in particular and when noone is looking at them any more decide to get a bit edgier for a bit of attention.
This sums up my feeling on the current upswing in activity.
OWS is making the Tea Party look like a reasonable protest movement. Automatically Appended Next Post: remilia_scarlet wrote:the occupy protest is going to be going on for a while, since the protesters are, at this point, just the dregs of society, since all the functioning members are either
A) going to work/school
B) looking for work
C) have something better to bo
I lol'd.
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Post by: CptJake
Bromsy wrote:Burn a flag if you want.... busting up city hall to steal flags to burn is gak kid behavior, not protesting. Seriously, are the corporations going to be forced to replace/fix that stuff? Jesus, support the general ideas behind the OWS stuff if you want, but the Oakland guys are just doing the loot burn destroy idiot crap that makes people look down on and hate the whole shebang.
Yep.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ouze wrote:Bromsy wrote:Pics or it didn't happen?
It happened.
Maybe you missed this part:
Lawrence Brewer was executed by lethal injection for this crime by the state of Texas on September 21, 2011. King remains on Texas' death row while appeals are pending, while Berry was sentenced to life imprisonment.
Seems rule of law comes in and justice is done.
But if your answer is Burn It All Down, then dragging folks to death becomes possible, and will only be answered by mob violence in turn.
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Post by: Ouze
CptJake wrote:Ouze wrote:Bromsy wrote:Pics or it didn't happen?
It happened.
Maybe you missed this part:
Lawrence Brewer was executed by lethal injection for this crime by the state of Texas on September 21, 2011. King remains on Texas' death row while appeals are pending, while Berry was sentenced to life imprisonment.
Seems rule of law comes in and justice is done.
I do seem to have missed the part where that was, in any way, relevant to the post at hand ("Pics or it didn't happen"). I proved it happened. There was no discussion about the rule of law, truth justice & the American way, or anything like that, simply a dispute of a historical event that was refutiated. If you wish to extrapolate that "pics or it didn't happen' into something that requires more context, then we're engaged in a classic round of goalpost-moving, and certainly don't feel the need to engage in that sort of calvinball.
Alternately, people could post actual coherent thoughts instead of memes like "pics or it didn't happen", which would save us all the trouble of pretending it was a real post ever worth replying to, let alone branching out into further discussion.
CptJake wrote:But if your answer is Burn It All Down, then dragging folks to death becomes possible, and will only be answered by mob violence in turn.
I certainly missed the part where I said, implied, inferred or otherwise gave the idea "Burn It All Down" was my answer, either now or ever. But don't let me stop you from whaling away on that strawman.
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Post by: AustonT
I somehow don't think he wasn't talking to you Ouze.
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Post by: Ouze
If not, my apologies. I'm super distracted at work with, can you believe the nerve, customers.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
dogma wrote:ParatrooperSimon wrote:IMO if you burn a countries flag, you deserve to be shot...
What about, say, Iran, or North Korea, or Somalia?
This is of course what happens when a person who claims to be "very left" shows what are more traditionally right-wing tendencies, dogma. It's probably not worth paying attention to.
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Post by: Tyyr
And out of the ashes will rise something the American people can truly believe in
Yes, that in the future instead of letting a bunch of malcontent hippies camp out we'll let the cops break them up riot style immediately.
OWS has no plans, no vision. The fact that months after the start of all this all most people can tell you about OWS is that they're pissed off about something or other shows just how ineffectual the movement is. How is anything going to "rise from the ashes" if the OWS movement is utterly incapable of articulating what they want the thing that rises to be? If you give a damn about the movement at all you'd be trying to get Occupy Oakland to disperse before they make you look any worse. If the OWS had any real mental muscle behind it they'd have realized that they got the attention they needed with the actual occupations but it's time to let that come to an end and start a real poltical movement with clearly articulated goals and plans to get there. It's time to grow the feth up and prove you deserve a place at the adult's table.
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Post by: Ouze
dogma wrote:ParatrooperSimon wrote:IMO if you burn a countries flag, you deserve to be shot...
What about, say, Iran, or North Korea, or Somalia?
why would anyone want to burn this?
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Post by: biccat
Monster Rain wrote:OWS is making the Tea Party look like a reasonable protest movement.
That's because it was.
Ouze wrote:As they say, "Seriously, biccat gave the perfect response to this topic"
Thanks. I now plan to take this completely out of context and put it in my signature. 
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Post by: Frazzled
dogma wrote:Johnny-Crass wrote:Frazzled your response of violence is typical of those who hold strong nationalistic ties or who use brute force to enforce the militaristic oppression of the poor.
No one in the United State is oppressed, militaristically or otherwise. If you want to see people who are oppressed, there are plenty of nations I'm willing to buy you plain ticket to visit. Of curse, I can't promise you a two-way ticket, I'm on a budget after all.
Johnny-Crass wrote:
All the bullets, teargas, pepper spray and government oppression in the world will not silence the idea of equality.
I see we aren't terribly familiar with North Korea.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote:
Pff. I see you jokers every day near work. Its so hard to tell the difference between the protesters and the homeless guys hanging out. At least the homeless are honest about it. The OWS guys are just a joke. All 8 of you.
To be fair, taking the OWS protester in Texas as emblematic of OWS protester in general is a lot like taking Republican politicians from New York as emblematic of the Republican Party in general.
Agreed on all points. This is a day of days. Automatically Appended Next Post: Bromsy wrote:Pics or it didn't happen? And dogma, I've heard a lot about the people of Bavaria being oppressed, and if you want to buy me a plane ticket out there for a fact finding mission, say in late September or early October I would be happy to find my own way home.
I've heard Tahitians are incredibly oppressed. The Wife says they are too. Can we get two tickets please? The wiener dogs can sit in our laps. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ouze wrote:dogma wrote:I suppose I should have specified, "oppressed by the state" is what I meant
Fair enough.
Plus they were convicted. I believe one got the needle and has already been needlized. Automatically Appended Next Post: d-usa wrote:ParatrooperSimon wrote:If someone was burning a Canadian/New Zealand flag, I would just nock their lights out, and tell them to stop their whining and harden up and deal with it. IMO if you burn a countries flag, you deserve to be shot...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm very left, like very left, but when it comes to flags... you burn them, I burn your balls off...?
Because a piece of cloth is more important than a persons life. Hyperbole much?
Maybe he doesn't value a person's life? Automatically Appended Next Post: Occupiers Dump Condoms on Catholic School Girls
A group of Occupy Wall Street protesters disrupted a Right to Life rally and threw condoms on Catholic school girls inside the Rhode Island state capitol building.
Barth Bracy, executive director of Rhode Island Right to Life, said their rally had to be cut short after the Occupiers began screaming and refused to allow a Catholic priest to deliver a prayer.
“This is their idea of civil speech but we believe it’s an outrage,” Bracy told Fox News & Commentary “They started heckling, chanting and blowing whistles. They shouted down a priest.”
Last week’s rally was held inside the rotunda of the state capitol in Providence. Bracy said the Occupiers, along with some pro-choice demonstrators, infiltrated the crowd of some 150 pro-lifers. He said the pro-life crowd was made up of senior citizens, mothers with young children, Cub Scouts, and school kids.
Bracy said one of the most egregious incidents occurred when an Occupier climbed to the third floor balcony and dumped a box of condoms on girls from a Catholic school.
“What kind of individual throw condoms at Catholic school girls,” Bracy asked.
FOLLOW TODD ON FACEBOOK!
Bracy said capitol police were outnumbered and overwhelmed by the protesters. At one point they even attacked State. Rep. Doreen Costa.
“This was one of the most disturbing sights I’ve ever seen,” Costa told Fox News & Commentary. “It was horrendous. “
Costa said a female Occupier hit her on the head with a sign and shoved her “moppy” hair in the lawmaker’s face.
“I told her that she really stunk bad and needed to take a bath,” Costa said.
Costa said she was “speechless” when they showered the young girls with condoms. So was Father Bernard Healey, the executive director of the Rhode Island Catholic Conference.
“It’s disgraceful behavior,” Healey said. “The week before, the pro-abortion people had their rally and no one bothered them. Apparently freedom of speech only applies to those who agree with you.”
Healey called the protesters “mean-spirited” and “ugly.”
He was trying to deliver a blessing to the crowd when the demonstrators shouted him down.
“I led the crowd in singing ‘God Bless America’ to try and down out their awful chants,” he said.
Joseph Little, the chief of the capitol police, told Fox News & Commentary that he did not receive any reports of condoms being dropped on children. He also said to his knowledge, nothing happened to that rose to the level of needing to call in additional support.
Little said no one was arrested.
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Post by: Warrior Squirrel
Amerekeh feth yeah!
How are you supposed to argue against someone like that?
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Post by: AustonT
“What kind of individual throw condoms at Catholic school girls,” Bracy asked.
Me, stapled through the middle to a business card with my phone number and address.
Also who brings Boy Scouts to a pro life rally...with catholic priests? This doesn't sound like a recipe for disaster?
They should have brought Boy AND Girl Scouts to the rally stepped aside at let them go at it over the abortion issue.
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Post by: Frazzled
AustonT wrote:“What kind of individual throw condoms at Catholic school girls,” Bracy asked.
Me, stapled through the middle to a business card with my phone number and address.
Also who brings Boy Scouts to a pro life rally...with catholic priests? This doesn't sound like a recipe for disaster?
They should have brought Boy AND Girl Scouts to the rally stepped aside at let them go at it over the abortion issue.
Pff! The scouts were there to work the crowd. Girl scouts selling cookies and boy scouts selling popcorn. Free enterprise baby.
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Post by: Monster Rain
biccat wrote:Monster Rain wrote:OWS is making the Tea Party look like a reasonable protest movement.
That's because it was.
I honestly thought they were kind of goofy at the time, but I wasn't being snarky in that statement. At least not toward the Tea Party.
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Post by: Squidmanlolz
AustonT wrote:“What kind of individual throw condoms at Catholic school girls,” Bracy asked.
Me, stapled through the middle to a business card with my phone number and address.
Also who brings Boy Scouts to a pro life rally...with catholic priests? This doesn't sound like a recipe for disaster?
They should have brought Boy AND Girl Scouts to the rally stepped aside at let them go at it over the abortion issue.
Wouldn't the staple through the condom make it worthless? 
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Post by: Grakmar
Unless I missed it, the article doesn't say how old these "schoolgirls" were. If they're 15+, what's wrong with giving them free condoms? If they're under 15, they're not old enough to really decide if they want to be at a pro-life rally, and their parents/school is using them in a totally inappropriate manner.
Plus, they only interview the leader of the Pro-Life group, a Catholic priest, and a state rep notorious for being a right-wing nutjob. (Not saying all right-wing is nuts, I'm saying she's crazy, and is very right-wing) What happened to "balanced"? The only balanced part of that report was from the police chief who gets a minor blurb at the end (not even quoted) saying that all of this is unfounded.
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Post by: Samus_aran115
I find flag burning to be a personal insult, and don't approve of it for any purpose.
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Post by: sourclams
Johnny-Crass wrote:Frazzled your response of violence is typical of those who hold strong nationalistic ties or who use brute force to enforce the militaristic oppression of the poor. You stereotype us as the dirty drumcircle hippie but honestly they are the minority in the OWS movement. I have seen so many kinds of people march beside me and I am proud to be one of them. All the bullets, teargas, pepper spray and government oppression in the world will not silence the idea of equality.
I just want you to know what a kick I get out of posts like this, originating from a Random American that still quietly enjoys the lowest food:income ratio in the world.
What will silence your movement is simply a slow slide back into prosperity by the majority of America. Bullets (although the only bullets I know of were from drug dealers into Occupy Oakland's tent ghetto) and oppression won't break this civil movement, and indeed that is exactly the sort of negative attention that Occupy needs to feed its passion-based support network to thrive. However the Occupy movement as a whole is destined to die from a slow suffocation due to the indifference of a detached public.
You are not the 99%. You are the representatives at the margine of the bottom 25%.
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Post by: Frazzled
Grakmar wrote:Unless I missed it, the article doesn't say how old these "schoolgirls" were. If they're 15+, what's wrong with giving them free condoms? If they're under 15, they're not old enough to really decide if they want to be at a pro-life rally, and their parents/school is using them in a totally inappropriate manner.
Plus, they only interview the leader of the Pro-Life group, a Catholic priest, and a state rep notorious for being a right-wing nutjob. (Not saying all right-wing is nuts, I'm saying she's crazy, and is very right-wing) What happened to "balanced"? The only balanced part of that report was from the police chief who gets a minor blurb at the end (not even quoted) saying that all of this is unfounded.
On a personal level, if someone threw condoms at GC there would be a high chance they would be in an ambulance very quickly.
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Post by: AustonT
Squidmanlolz wrote:AustonT wrote:“What kind of individual throw condoms at Catholic school girls,” Bracy asked.
Me, stapled through the middle to a business card with my phone number and address.
Also who brings Boy Scouts to a pro life rally...with catholic priests? This doesn't sound like a recipe for disaster?
They should have brought Boy AND Girl Scouts to the rally stepped aside at let them go at it over the abortion issue.
Wouldn't the staple through the condom make it worthless?
I'm still Catholic mate. It's just a memorable delivery system.
Frazzled wrote:AustonT wrote:“What kind of individual throw condoms at Catholic school girls,” Bracy asked.
Me, stapled through the middle to a business card with my phone number and address.
Also who brings Boy Scouts to a pro life rally...with catholic priests? This doesn't sound like a recipe for disaster?
They should have brought Boy AND Girl Scouts to the rally stepped aside at let them go at it over the abortion issue.
Pff! The scouts were there to work the crowd. Girl scouts selling cookies and boy scouts selling popcorn. Free enterprise baby.
I was more peanut towards the BSA being generally pro-life and the GSA being generally pro-choice. It's pretty epic...I think.
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Post by: dogma
Monster Rain wrote:
I honestly thought they were kind of goofy at the time...
You certainly weren't the only one.
biccat wrote:Monster Rain wrote:OWS is making the Tea Party look like a reasonable protest movement.
That's because it was.
And I'm sure people that are part of, or support, the OWS movement believe it to be reasonable as well.
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Post by: Cannerus_The_Unbearable
Symbolism is nothing worth getting butt hurt over.
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Post by: Gorskar.da.Lost
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote:Symbolism is nothing worth getting butt hurt over.
Yep, pretty much.
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Post by: Monster Rain
I guarantee there are symbols that both of you would probably be annoyed by if they were defaced.
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Post by: Frazzled
Monster Rain wrote:I guarantee there are symbols that both of you would probably be annoyed by if they were defaced.
Anyone messing with Winnie the Pooh is going down, and hard! 
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Post by: Grakmar
Monster Rain wrote:I guarantee there are symbols that both of you would probably be annoyed by if they were defaced.
Although, with Cannerus, I'm not exactly sure what you could do to deface it. Perhaps dip it in holy water?
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:Monster Rain wrote:I guarantee there are symbols that both of you would probably be annoyed by if they were defaced.
Anyone messing with Winnie the Pooh is going down, and hard!
And that's without any Rule 34.
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Post by: Monster Rain
I don't think Pooh would get that fat, simply because of the calories he burns adventuring through the Hundred Acre Wood, and the extreme lengths to which he must go to secure said honey.
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Post by: Frazzled
Monster Rain wrote:I don't think Pooh would get that fat, simply because of the calories he burns adventuring through the Hundred Acre Wood, and the extreme lengths to which he must go to secure said honey.
Exactly.
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Post by: dogma
Monster Rain wrote:I don't think Pooh would get that fat, simply because of the calories he burns adventuring through the Hundred Acre Wood, and the extreme lengths to which he must go to secure said honey.
I don't know man, honey has about 100 Kcal per ounce, and that pot is pretty damn big.
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Post by: Ahtman
dogma wrote: and that pot is pretty damn big.
There is hardly any honey in the pot though, which is why he is always so dour.
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Post by: Frazzled
Ahtman wrote:dogma wrote: and that pot is pretty damn big.
There is hardly any honey ion the pot though, which is why he is always so dour.
Exactly. Now someone get me a smitin' stick for Dogma for his heretical views about the greatness of Winnie. 
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Post by: dogma
Ahtman wrote:
There is hardly any honey on the pot though, which is why he is always so dour.
Weed does increase the metabolism.
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Post by: Ma55ter_fett
Squidmanlolz wrote:dogma wrote:I've never understood the reverence for the flag, at least not on an emotional level. But then nationalism is also vexing to me.
I see where you're coming from here, it is (at face value) only an identification marker for a country. It becomes more than that to people who see themselves as a sort of extension of their country.
More and more through the years I've come to see the flag as a symbol for the government (which I often disagree with) and not a symbol of the people per say or the ideals under which we live.
As such I believe that flag burning is a valid form of protest against the government
Your mileage may vary
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Post by: CT GAMER
Mr. Burning wrote:OWS is acting a lot like Miley Cyrus.
They jabber on about nothing in particular and when noone is looking at them any more decide to get a bit edgier for a bit of attention.
Miley Cyrus must have multiple accounts on Dakka...
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Post by: CptJake
Ma55ter_fett wrote:Squidmanlolz wrote:dogma wrote:I've never understood the reverence for the flag, at least not on an emotional level. But then nationalism is also vexing to me.
I see where you're coming from here, it is (at face value) only an identification marker for a country. It becomes more than that to people who see themselves as a sort of extension of their country.
More and more through the years I've come to see the flag as a symbol for the government (which I often disagree with) and not a symbol of the people per say or the ideals under which we live.
As such I believe that flag burning is a valid form of protest against the government
Your mileage may vary
It may well be a valid form of protest, and no one here I noticed said otherwise. Breaking into a Govt building, looting and vanadlizing it causing over a million bucks in damages, stealing their flag and buring it, hopefully crosses the line from 'valid' in your view. It sure as hell does in my mind.
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Post by: d-usa
Buy your own flag, support local business, make sure it is made in the USA to support local jobs, then burn your own property.
That's the american way.
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Post by: dogma
CptJake wrote:Breaking into a Govt building, looting and vanadlizing it causing over a million bucks in damages, stealing their flag and buring it, hopefully crosses the line from 'valid' in your view. It sure as hell does in my mind.
Depends on what you're protesting.
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
<image redacted; if you don't have anything more to contribute to a conversation than a "witty" image, please refrain from posting in the conversation --Janthkin>
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Post by: dogma
Frazzled wrote:
On a personal level, if someone threw condoms at GC there would be a high chance they would be in an ambulance very quickly.
Would it be the throwing, or the condoms you objected to?
There are plenty of places just about anyone can get free condoms (maybe not in Texas), and I would think condoms are preferable to not-condoms where sex is concerned.
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Post by: Ahtman
dogma wrote:CptJake wrote:Breaking into a Govt building, looting and vanadlizing it causing over a million bucks in damages, stealing their flag and buring it, hopefully crosses the line from 'valid' in your view. It sure as hell does in my mind.
Depends on what you're protesting.
I think he is referring to the Wisconsin incident in which some of the conservatives said there was over a million dollars in damages, but in the end it was actually no where that amount. I don't think even they called the protestors looters though, so there is now that angle.
I imagine the Native population felt fairly justified, or valid, in taking over the BIA building and Alcatraz.
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Post by: biccat
Ahtman wrote:I imagine the Native population felt fairly justified, or valid, in taking over the BIA building and Alcatraz.
People who rob banks, break into homes, kill innocent civilians, and rape their family members likely also feel justified in their actions.
We shouldn't consider whether the people performing the action feel justified in their actions, we should consider whether their actions are justified.
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Post by: dogma
biccat wrote:
People who rob banks, break into homes, kill innocent civilians, and rape their family members likely also feel justified in their actions.
You are conspicuously silent regarding the rape of people that the rapist is not related to.
biccat wrote:
We shouldn't consider whether the people performing the action feel justified in their actions, we should consider whether their actions are justified.
They aren't entirely separate questions.
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Post by: Ahtman
biccat wrote:Ahtman wrote:I imagine the Native population felt fairly justified, or valid, in taking over the BIA building and Alcatraz.
People who rob banks, break into homes, kill innocent civilians, and rape their family members likely also feel justified in their actions.
We shouldn't consider whether the people performing the action feel justified in their actions, we should consider whether their actions are justified.
Context is important, as always, is important. I was giving two examples of instances where people would probably see a break in of a government buildings in protest as valid. CaptJake couldn't think of a time where it would be valid, so I supplied two examples. Of course not everyone is going to think every protest is valid, and I don't think the argument was made that there ever would be such an event that makes every person in any country that homogenous.
I do think it is interesting that you compare Native Americans protesting their culture and lives being destroyed with that of murderers, rapists, and robbers.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Joey wrote:For the benefit of Americans, you are the only ones who're obsessed with burning your flag. We in Britain have the freedom to burn our flag if we wanted to...but then, why would you?
The only people who burn the British flag are people who hate Britain/British things, like those mental Muslims you get sometimes. But your run of the mill protestor would never burn the Union Flag.
Samus_aran115 wrote:I find flag burning to be a personal insult, and don't approve of it for any purpose.
Burning flags can't be illegal outright, and it's the correct way to dispose of them in the US, perhaps some people should check that out? There are good and bad reasons to burn a flag. The boy and girl scouts are responsible for more flag burnings than any other group if I recall correctly.
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Post by: Ahtman
Almost no one burns the flag here, but occasionally a few do it to get a rise out of the few that don't realize they are just having their strings pulled.
If it couldn't be used as a wedge issue during elections it would probably get no play at all.
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Post by: CptJake
Ahtman wrote:dogma wrote:CptJake wrote:Breaking into a Govt building, looting and vanadlizing it causing over a million bucks in damages, stealing their flag and buring it, hopefully crosses the line from 'valid' in your view. It sure as hell does in my mind.
Depends on what you're protesting.
I think he is referring to the Wisconsin incident in which some of the conservatives said there was over a million dollars in damages, but in the end it was actually no where that amount. I don't think even they called the protestors looters though, so there is now that angle. I imagine the Native population felt fairly justified, or valid, in taking over the BIA building and Alcatraz.
Mayor of Oakland says: Occupy protesters have caused an estimated $2 million in vandalism since October. She said the cost to the city related to the Occupy Oakland protests is pegged at about $5 million.
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2012/01/29/oakland-mayor-assesses-damage-from-occupy-protests/ Damage from this particular incident hasn't been assessed yet. EDIT: I had misread an article and associated a number with this incident before my quoted post.
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Post by: d-usa
Howard A Treesong wrote:Joey wrote:For the benefit of Americans, you are the only ones who're obsessed with burning your flag. We in Britain have the freedom to burn our flag if we wanted to...but then, why would you?
The only people who burn the British flag are people who hate Britain/British things, like those mental Muslims you get sometimes. But your run of the mill protestor would never burn the Union Flag.
Samus_aran115 wrote:I find flag burning to be a personal insult, and don't approve of it for any purpose.
Burning flags can't be illegal outright, and it's the correct way to dispose of them in the US, perhaps some people should check that out? There are good and bad reasons to burn a flag. The boy and girl scouts are responsible for more flag burnings than any other group if I recall correctly.
We used to have a mass flag burning every year, media would show up, veterans would show up. Huge flames from all the synthetic materials in the flags.
Of course I was with the fire department at the time, and we worked with the VFW to help them with their annual flag retirement ceremony.
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Post by: Frazzled
dogma wrote:Frazzled wrote:
On a personal level, if someone threw condoms at GC there would be a high chance they would be in an ambulance very quickly.
Would it be the throwing, or the condoms you objected to?
There are plenty of places just about anyone can get free condoms (maybe not in Texas), and I would think condoms are preferable to not-condoms where sex is concerned.
Both, but throwing anything is the big pissoff. She's a bit young for the rest and boys are still "icky."
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Post by: Melissia
Throwing a condom at a child is wrong for many reasons, yes...
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Post by: Frazzled
Exactly.
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Post by: AustonT
Melissia wrote:Throwing a condom at a child is wrong for many reasons, yes...
I just want them to be safe.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Frazzled wrote:Monster Rain wrote:I guarantee there are symbols that both of you would probably be annoyed by if they were defaced.
Anyone messing with Winnie the Pooh is going down, and hard!
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Post by: Rented Tritium
If you feel sufficiently alienated by your own country that you want to symbolically show how separate you've become, burning a flag is a perfectly valid expression of that symbolism.
If you legally own that flag and follow fire codes, I don't care.
I don't like occupy, but I do think that a person can burn a flag symbolically without "hating America". It's complicated though.
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Post by: biccat
dogma wrote:biccat wrote:People who rob banks, break into homes, kill innocent civilians, and rape their family members likely also feel justified in their actions.
You are conspicuously silent regarding the rape of people that the rapist is not related to.
I was trying to vary the examples. "kill and rape innocent civilians" implies both, "kill or rape innocent civilians" implies neither, "kill innocents or rape innocents" sounds redundant.
I also omitted people who burglarize homes, or break into banks.
Ahtman wrote:I do think it is interesting that you compare Native Americans protesting their culture and lives being destroyed with that of murderers, rapists, and robbers.
Of course you do, because you agree with the validity of the Native Americans protesting their culture.
A bank robber might be offended that I compared him with murderers.
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Post by: Rented Tritium
dogma wrote:Monster Rain wrote:I don't think Pooh would get that fat, simply because of the calories he burns adventuring through the Hundred Acre Wood, and the extreme lengths to which he must go to secure said honey.
I don't know man, honey has about 100 Kcal per ounce, and that pot is pretty damn big.
We don't know how many months pass between episodes. He might just be preparing for hibernation.
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