Think about it, the Tau could be more Grimdark than when they first appear.

How many of you have read the book A Brave New World? Now I'm sure that a few of you did in high school. But for those that don't it sounds (To me at least)somewhat similar Tau Society, minus all of the drugs, sex, and clones, plus its a book about Dystopian Societies, kinda like 1984 etc. However they do share the caste system, much like the Caste system of the Tau. And each member of the Caste is "supposedly" equal, much like the Tau. However the members of the Castes really are not equal, much like the members of the Tau Caste. In the book the ruling Caste (The Alphas) or at least I think they are the ruling cast because they have the easiest life out of all the Caste members. This sounds to me a lot like the Ethereal Caste of the Tau, they rule but they claim themselves as equal.
And everything the Alphas do, they do to try and keep stability of the whole world, they try to keep everyone happy...just like the Ethereal's. In the book, they are pretty advanced in terms of technology, they have massive cloning facilities, rockets that can travel the world 3 times around in a matter of minutes etc. But they also condition each clone that they make, they condition them to be afraid of books and flowers and anything different, they also teach that them that their own Caste is better than the other Castes. Now I don't know how in-depth you've read (I for one probably haven't read it all that well) However I did catch that under the Ethereal HQ choice where it says the price of failure it talks about how the Fire Caste is conditioned to fear and dread the death of any Ethereal. This, well at least to me anyway is begging to sound a lot like a Brave New World.

Also in A Brave New World, they keep the members who are not in any Caste System on separate reservations where they are treated like savages, and while they are grudgingly accepted by the members of the Caste, they are still not considered members of society. Now this sounds a LOT like the Kroot...Savages, not fully accepted, and not members of any Caste. And the Vespid to some degree, they fully accept the concept of the Greater Good, but aren't completely accepted because the Ethereal's don't let anyone become full members of the Greater Good...unless they are Tau. Now in the book, this sounds a lot like the Epsilon Caste, they are basically (and PLEASE do not take this the wrong way) mentally slowed, they do all of the handy work, like plumbers and garbage men, and they are Caste members, but they are not accepted and actually hated in the book. And I kinda get the vibe/feeling that the Kroot and Vespids are a lot like the Epsilons.

Take all of this with a grain of salt, but I feel that there is a little more Grimdarkness, to the Tau then meets the eye. Pull back the curtain and look into the depths of Tau society. The Ethereal's preach the Greater Good and welcome everyone, while secretly they don't fully accept everyone into their society, and condition and manipulate the other Castes to maintain their power. I feel that if you were to take a glance at A Brave New World, perhaps you'll see what I mean.

Now please, I would like your opinion on my thoughts, or perhaps you have some thoughts of your own.

Thanks.

I agree. Tau are cool because they're shiny on the outside and dark on the inside. Still counts as grimdark.

Rented Tritium wrote:I agree. Tau are cool because they're shiny on the outside and dark on the inside. Still counts as grimdark.

Yay! Someone actually understands what I'm saying! You sir, have just made my day haha

I would pose the question why do you think people believe the Tau arent Grimdark?

Becaus they have "Good" in their tagline?

Even though the Tau are hardly 100% innocent, they're still a helluva better then anyone else and I'd much rather live under Tau rule. I stand by that.

Ratius wrote:I would pose the question why do you think people believe the Tau arent Grimdark?

Becaus they have "Good" in their tagline?

I remember reading in other threads that people hate the Tau simply because they aren't Grimdark enough, and they stick out from the rest of the 40k Universe because they are, or seem to be, a little more polite than other races. And that they aren't "Gothic" enough for 40k.

I think Tau are about as grimdark as the individual player wants them to be. The fluff - even apart from the usual contradictions between the interpretations of various sources - is so wonderfully vague that one can interpret them as an utopian society with enlightened leaders using their wisdom for the betterment of everyone's lot in life, or an Orwellian police state where everyone is an indoctrinated slave ... or anything in between (which is, I think, where my own opinion would fall - making them not appear "out of place" in this universe whilst at the same time not going straight for the most horrible version imaginable).

Another bit supporting this "Grimdark filling" idea is that imperial xeno biologists that have dissected etherials have found an organ under the bone crest on their forhead(where other tau only have a skinline). This organ produces a pheromone that they believe allow them to induce complete and total obediance in other tau. So an etherial could actualy tell a tau to jump off of a bridge and they would with out hesetation. Once they established them as the top dogs then fallowing orders is just the way things are, not requireing constant pheromones.

Yeah, that is one of those interpretations. Of course, that version also claims that Tau have feet instead of hooves.

Not saying it's "wrong", just stressing that there is no "proof" or "fact" either way by nature of how the franchise is run. Xenology is actually a pretty cool book, I enjoyed the little story bits in it as well.

DarbNilbirts wrote:Another bit supporting this "Grimdark filling" idea is that imperial xeno biologists that have dissected etherials have found an organ under the bone crest on their forhead(where other tau only have a skinline). This organ produces a pheromone that they believe allow them to induce complete and total obediance in other tau. So an etherial could actualy tell a tau to jump off of a bridge and they would with out hesetation. Once they established them as the top dogs then fallowing orders is just the way things are, not requireing constant pheromones.

I had heard about that, which could just be even more proof that there is a lot more going on in the Tau than whats just on the surface.

I think it's great to have different flavors of grimdark. Some people seem to think everything needs to be skulls and blackness all the time. It just has to be a very scary and dangerous universe to qualify as grimdark. You can achieve that through many means.

With the mind control and political manipulation, the tau are like a different flavor of chaos in a way. They're the cult of the greater good. Seducing people with their promises of peace and prosperity in a dangerous universe. The fact that everything else is so dark actually makes the siren call of the greater good stronger.

I will never look at Tau the same again, Now that I think about it, they kind of are a cult of the Greater Good, using conditioning and chemicals and promises of a better life to lure people in. Its like a whole new form of chaos, without all the skulls and blood.

Yeah, when they first started darkening the tau, I thought it was a little dumb and hamfisted even for a retcon, but the more I thought about it, the more I really liked it. It's creepy and insidious in a way we don't see very much in this universe, but still quite grimdark.

Sometimes a cow is just a cow.
If the Tau look like Asian themed naive newcomers with altruistic tendencies, and the designers explicitely say Tau are Asian themed naive newcomers with altruistic tendencies, they might just be Asian themed naive newcomers with altruistic tendencies.

And the part about Xenos is completely missing the point: Kroot are not part of Tau society and have their own issues conflicting with what Tau would like to see.

Kroothawk wrote:Sometimes a cow is just a cow.
If the Tau look like Asian themed naive newcomers with altruistic tendencies, and the designers explicitely say Tau are Asian themed naive newcomers with altruistic tendencies, they might just be Asian themed naive newcomers with altruistic tendencies.

You won't fool me into joining your space cult, kroothawk

I wouldn't trust you anyway

BTW no Xeno joins Tau society, at best he joins the tau Empire. That is an important differenciation.

If you allow me....

Tau are like US today, using propaganda and promises of better life to carve their way into the galaxy. When in reality they are just like any other conquering race, just without slaughtering people ( remembers Nimbosa and Taros ) ... forget that - without opening fire first and asking questions later.

Point is that Tau are using the weakest thing of their enemies: their own people. By offering better life conditions and better protection and much more attention to their problem they are in fact turning people against their own flesh and blood to join their cause. Later telling that it is the will of the people that want them to stay.

But Tau are newcomers and tolerate many things that Humanity isn't because they didn't see the horrors of the galaxy. They are located in rather calm part of the galaxy were Ultramarines are dormant and as a result of that there is peace there ( remember how Matt said that they are very busy Chapter in keeping the peace tryout the galaxy? ). And if we see entire Tau history the only real fight they had so far are against Imeprium ( Damocles, Nimbosa and Zeist ) and a conflict with Gorgon. They never faced Chaos invasion of Black Crusade proportions, an Ork WARGHHH!!! of Armageddon proportions, full NEcron uprising ( like Damnos ) and other major conflicts.

For now they are they are race using Grater Good as a paravan to hide their real intentions of ruling the galaxy. But I thin kas they progress more and more and discover more and more they will become more and more grimdark.

So their ultimate goal is to subjugate the universe?

Original designer's notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

Sorry, you guessed wrong. As in every Tau thread for a year. Again and again.

Fluff changed, that was from what 2003?
Now is 2011 and everyone's fluff changed a LOT, so did the Tau.
And their slow expansion into Imperial and ORk space jsut proves my point.

Warning: Silly Post Ahead.

Everyone knows that the Tau's purpose is to create the galaxy's first God of Tickling. They're well on their way, according to Tzeentch!

Serious post mode on:
While the original designer notes hold true, it's also worth noting that the Tau are supposed to be the only race currently "altering" in every incarnation of their fluff.
When I think of the Tau as they first were introduced, I think of a beautiful marble city perfectly planned out and perfectly kept.
Add some wear and tear to that city, some crumbling buildings, and a core of despair beginning to set in: you have the Tau Empire of today.

They're still far more "nice" than the other factions, but that's not saying too much when other factions will suck your world into a literal version of Hell or bomb entire planets into ash to stop the encroachment of an enemy.

I find it somewhat amusing ( but also frustrating) that in this 40k setting with its many shades of "grimdarkness" that some absolutes are accepted..

The Tyranids are a unreasoning and unfathomable hive mind intent with one purpose, to consume and expand.

The Orks are a Barbaric race with sole focus of fighting and survival.

Each race has a accepted style and tone, with one exception...

The Tau, Tau fans like its less dark and more hopeful tone, and usually that is what has drawn many players to it ( that and cool looking models )

And as Kroothawk has stated the original design ethos that GW worked within.

I know thats what eventually drew me to them, it took a while, and was what actually kept me in the hobby, I had long ago tired of the gothic and overly dark atmosphere of the setting its unique quality had grown stale to me.

But something new sparked my interest, and I dabbled in the Tau and their worldview and look, and it rekindled my ethusiasim for the game and setting.


Now I know there are many non-tau fans who find them un-fitting to the setting and such are set against them being less grimdark then their own favorite race/army whatnot. Thats fine you dont have to play them collect them or even read about them, and if its such a issue you dont even need to play against them, unless tournies are your thing.
And if in future editions GW sees itself fit to darken them yet further oh well not much we can do about it, I will likely continue in the same vein as I have been for a few years now, and maintain my Septs much more hopeful mindset.

But thats my take on this faction, everyone has their own, live an let live, play and let play.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: I will likely continue in the same vein as I have been for a few years now, and maintain my Septs much more hopeful mindset.

The great part is, this is compatible even if they get darker.

The tau can be totally evil deep down, but regular joes won't know it. You can play your sept the same way without conflicting with anyone else's ideas. They can just tell themselves that your dudes don't know the truth. Everyone is happy!

Brother Coa wrote:If you allow me....

Tau are like US today, using propaganda and promises of better life to carve their way into the galaxy. When in reality they are just like any other conquering race, just without slaughtering people ( remembers Nimbosa and Taros ) ... forget that - without opening fire first and asking questions later.

Point is that Tau are using the weakest thing of their enemies: their own people. By offering better life conditions and better protection and much more attention to their problem they are in fact turning people against their own flesh and blood to join their cause. Later telling that it is the will of the people that want them to stay.

But Tau are newcomers and tolerate many things that Humanity isn't because they didn't see the horrors of the galaxy. They are located in rather calm part of the galaxy were Ultramarines are dormant and as a result of that there is peace there ( remember how Matt said that they are very busy Chapter in keeping the peace tryout the galaxy? ). And if we see entire Tau history the only real fight they had so far are against Imeprium ( Damocles, Nimbosa and Zeist ) and a conflict with Gorgon. They never faced Chaos invasion of Black Crusade proportions, an Ork WARGHHH!!! of Armageddon proportions, full NEcron uprising ( like Damnos ) and other major conflicts.

For now they are they are race using Grater Good as a paravan to hide their real intentions of ruling the galaxy. But I thin kas they progress more and more and discover more and more they will become more and more grimdark.

Honestly, this is a pretty intelligent and nuanced port by Coa.

I have been harboring a theory on how they will expand the Tau background and fluff, I think the Septs will become much more pronounced as a play style, in the manner of the NewCrons, having a tone set by their tombworld/overlord .

Tau septs may become more individual with each having its own (simular) versions of the Greater good and how to execute its tenants.

Some may be heavy handed, others may be more diplomatic, others may even implement sterilization and limited allied races, since the Ethereals have already displayed differences in methods, and septs are known for various traditions or strengths.

I have a feeling this will be how GW makes the Tau a more 40k-isn race that can validate it even fighting itself, since as it stands now, unless its the farsight sept vs. Tau Empire its seems very unfluffy to have Tau on Tau conflict, even tabletop wise.
(and yes I know they can always play the "training" card like if BA fight BA )

It just seems a trend that has been developing and most recently surfaced in the here to fore unified Necrons, who now can have every fluffy reason to slaughter one another.

Well thats my crazy 8 ball prediction of Tau fluff future.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Honestly, this is a pretty intelligent and nuanced port by Coa.

Thank you my good men.

Indeed, everyone provides VERY good points. I guess the amount of Grimdarkness the Tau have is in the Eyes of the Beholder.
Cha- I actually like that idea, then a player could possibly create their own sept with unique features, kind of like player made SM chapters

Harriticus wrote:Even though the Tau are hardly 100% innocent, they're still a helluva better then anyone else and I'd much rather live under Tau rule. I stand by that.

Until you're put in to a slave camp and have your balls cut off so you can't breed, right?

Never was a big fan of that book but now that you mention it, it definitely does seem like the 40k writers got some inspiration from Brave new world and books like it. Nice spotting!

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Even though the Tau are hardly 100% innocent, they're still a helluva better then anyone else and I'd much rather live under Tau rule. I stand by that.

Until you're put in to a slave camp and have your balls cut off so you can't breed, right?

I thought that was only in the Dawn of War series, where does it actually say that in the fluff? Unless your counting DOW as your fluff.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Even though the Tau are hardly 100% innocent, they're still a helluva better then anyone else and I'd much rather live under Tau rule. I stand by that.

Until you're put in to a slave camp and have your balls cut off so you can't breed, right?

I thought that was only in the Dawn of War series, where does it actually say that in the fluff? Unless your counting DOW as your fluff.

It's all fluff. But fluff contradicts other fluff fairly often. According to Gav Thorpe, there is no distinction in importance or "truthness" between studio material and licensed productions - they are all just different interpretations of the same 'verse, none being more valid than the other, and you're supposed to pick what you like, or come up with your own ideas.

Though even in DoW it wasn't quite stated this dramatically. Not that this would not mean that one couldn't simply take it that way if he or she so wished.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:Unless your counting DOW as your fluff.

DoW is counted as fluff, but only Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard ending for Soulstorm because those two are official ones and the rest were fun made for masses. The sterilization is mentioned in Dark Crusade Tau ending, and it is in fact - hinted as Human population of that world declined for more them half in short time.
I remember hearing that this was also mentioned in some book ( regarding Deathwatch ), but since that is from Imperial point of view and there is no official Tau source on it we can't regard it as real cannon. We can only wait and see how will writers continue Tau story and how will they evolve them.

Doesn't the Deathwatch RPG also make a joke about the Xenology book's idea regarding Ethereals supposedly having an organ for mind control? I recall someone mentioned this in a thread about Tau last week.

Though the joke is an insider - you don't really get it unless you have read Xenology, too. On the other hand, most DW players will have probably at least heard about the head crystal thingie, I think, even if only on a forum. It's one of the main arguments of the "Tau are evil!" faction of the community and as such gets thrown around as "proof" fairly often.

In my mind, the Tau will always be the more "good" of the races, since they don't just kill whatever they meet outright. To the OP, I haven't read that book but I'm going to look into it, sounds interesting.

AtariAssasin wrote:In my mind, the Tau will always be the more "good" of the races, since they don't just kill whatever they meet outright. To the OP, I haven't read that book but I'm going to look into it, sounds interesting.

The Imperium doesn't either.

People always forget that there are xenos protectorates in the Imperium...

The Tau are grimdark, they're just not that obvious about it.

Re-education camps/indoctrination the Greater Good - how is that different from what the Ecclesiarchy does with Imperial religion?
The castes are all conditioned to function under the Ethereals, they can function just as well without an Ethereal - look at Farsight. The Greater Good is just a dictatorship of the Ethereals. It's the same with the Imperium being dependent on the Emperor, except that the Imperium really is dependent on the Emperor, and not just conditioned to be dependent.

And the Tau are lucky. The Orks haven't really invaded them on a massive scale, although the War of Dakka might change that soon, and they're located far from the Eye of Terror, so the Traitor Legions can't touch them. Otherwise, Lorgar and Magnus would appear with their Legions and kick the Tau's ass for being atheist.

and there goes the otherwise interesting conversation....

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: and there goes the otherwise interesting conversation....

But it's true. Tau are grimdark, and lucky. It just doesn't show, that's all.

Melissia wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:In my mind, the Tau will always be the more "good" of the races, since they don't just kill whatever they meet outright. To the OP, I haven't read that book but I'm going to look into it, sounds interesting.

The Imperium doesn't either.

People always forget that there are xenos protectorates in the Imperium...

What?! Since when? I've never heard that before, do you have a source?

EDIT: Sounds argumentative, sorry. I'm just genuinely looking for more info.

AtariAssasin wrote:

Melissia wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:In my mind, the Tau will always be the more "good" of the races, since they don't just kill whatever they meet outright. To the OP, I haven't read that book but I'm going to look into it, sounds interesting.

The Imperium doesn't either.

People always forget that there are xenos protectorates in the Imperium...

What?! Since when? I've never heard that before, do you have a source?

EDIT: Sounds argumentative, sorry. I'm just genuinely looking for more info.

Agreed I've never known the IOM to have Xeno Protectorates. Just skimmed through Xenology, and it raised some interesting questions. Since there is the theory that the Eldar created the Tau to be a "Chaos Free" race can they still be considered Grimdark? Did the Eldar fail in their mission, if they even had a mission with the Tau. And I agree that the Tau are somewhat Grimdark, but they are waaaaaay more subtle about it.

AtariAssasin wrote:

Melissia wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:In my mind, the Tau will always be the more "good" of the races, since they don't just kill whatever they meet outright. To the OP, I haven't read that book but I'm going to look into it, sounds interesting.

The Imperium doesn't either.

People always forget that there are xenos protectorates in the Imperium...

What?! Since when? I've never heard that before, do you have a source?

EDIT: Sounds argumentative, sorry. I'm just genuinely looking for more info.

She always brings them up to try to make the empire sound like your friendly neighborhood Holy Imperium of Man. Imperial protectorates aren't being protected by the Imperium. They are quarantine or "we'll kill you later zones" that come about when the Imperium failed to wipe out the indigenous people there the first time around.

The Tau are very Grimdark. The fact that they are so naive to the horrors of the universe and maintain a futile ideology is what is so Grimdark to the observer: you realise that their Empire is doomed to fail and yet they still smile, oblivious to this fact. One feels almost sorry for them/

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:

Melissia wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:In my mind, the Tau will always be the more "good" of the races, since they don't just kill whatever they meet outright. To the OP, I haven't read that book but I'm going to look into it, sounds interesting.

The Imperium doesn't either.

People always forget that there are xenos protectorates in the Imperium...

What?! Since when? I've never heard that before, do you have a source?

EDIT: Sounds argumentative, sorry. I'm just genuinely looking for more info.

Agreed I've never known the IOM to have Xeno Protectorates. Just skimmed through Xenology, and it raised some interesting questions. Since there is the theory that the Eldar created the Tau to be a "Chaos Free" race can they still be considered Grimdark? Did the Eldar fail in their mission, if they even had a mission with the Tau. And I agree that the Tau are somewhat Grimdark, but they are waaaaaay more subtle about it.

That was a fan theory so yes it still exists as a highly improbable fan theory.

Xenos Protectorates? Since when? That idea was dropped during the Great Crusade thanks to Fulgrim's protests. The Watchers in the Dark are xenos, but they're not sentient, and more like slaves to the Dark Angels.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:The Tau are very Grimdark. The fact that they are so naive to the horrors of the universe and maintain a futile ideology is what is so Grimdark to the observer: you realise that their Empire is doomed to fail and yet they still smile, oblivious to this fact. One feels almost sorry for them/

How long will they last? How long until the War of Dakka escalates into an Armageddon-level Waaagh!? How long until the Word Bearers and the Thousand Sons come to 'enlighten' them? And most importantly, what does the Imperium plan to do about it?

You pretty much got it right there. The idea is the Fulgrim incident wasn't the only time the Imperium proposed that.
The only exception is the Jokearo but that's a whole other can of worms you don't want to open.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:

Melissia wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:In my mind, the Tau will always be the more "good" of the races, since they don't just kill whatever they meet outright. To the OP, I haven't read that book but I'm going to look into it, sounds interesting.

The Imperium doesn't either.

People always forget that there are xenos protectorates in the Imperium...

What?! Since when? I've never heard that before, do you have a source?

EDIT: Sounds argumentative, sorry. I'm just genuinely looking for more info.

She always brings them up to try to make the empire sound like your friendly neighborhood Holy Imperium of Man. Imperial protectorates aren't being protected by the Imperium. They are quarantine or "we'll kill you later zones" that come about when the Imperium failed to wipe out the indigenous people there the first time around.

Holy? Most Astartes would laugh. The Imperium simply is. It's neither holy nor profane.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:

Melissia wrote:

AtariAssasin wrote:In my mind, the Tau will always be the more "good" of the races, since they don't just kill whatever they meet outright. To the OP, I haven't read that book but I'm going to look into it, sounds interesting.

The Imperium doesn't either.

People always forget that there are xenos protectorates in the Imperium...

What?! Since when? I've never heard that before, do you have a source?

EDIT: Sounds argumentative, sorry. I'm just genuinely looking for more info.

Agreed I've never known the IOM to have Xeno Protectorates. Just skimmed through Xenology, and it raised some interesting questions. Since there is the theory that the Eldar created the Tau to be a "Chaos Free" race can they still be considered Grimdark? Did the Eldar fail in their mission, if they even had a mission with the Tau. And I agree that the Tau are somewhat Grimdark, but they are waaaaaay more subtle about it.

Let me help you:

"Some human organisations, including some factions of the Inquisition, individual Navigator families, the Illuminati brotherhood, etc., even have certain secret dealings and alliances with the Eldar. All these agreements are always carefully guarded secrets, as they would be considered treason by other more conservative factions of the Imperium. One such pact is the Coven of Isha.

The Coven of Isha is a secret pact between some members of the Ordo Xenos and Eldrad Ulthran of Craftworld Ulthwé. The Coven has rarely been invoked, for the Eldar rarely require the help of the Imperium and the Imperium never looks toward xenos for help. It involved the creation of a Wraithbone chamber for communications with Farseer Ulthran and had been constructed in a secret chamber at the Ramugan space station.

According to the Coven's librarium, the information from the Eldar through this pact has been linked to a number of disastrous events that engulfed the Imperium which include the Sanapan Scouring, the Mortis Annihilation, the Third Coming of Orian and the Battle of Armageddon.1 The most recent time that the Coven was activated was when Deathwatch marines from the Ordo Xenos had to retake an Eldar relic for Eldrad."

Certain individuals, like Captain Gabriel Angelos of the Blood Ravens have had friendlier contact with certain Eldar. The Blood Ravens chapter in particular has had unclear contacts with the Eldar throughout its history. This is for obvious reasons kept secret by all parties involved. Ironically, the secrecy surrounding the Blood Ravens' actions with the Eldar could possibly be one contributing factor to the chapter being largely unaware of its history.

Although friendly dealings with aliens is almost unthinkable, Rogue Traders are allowed to barter and trade with aliens."

From these examples you can round up the rest.

Small, isolated incidents by individuals or fringe factions for the percieved betterment of Humanity within that region, do not equal "Xenos Protectorates" tbh.

Ratius wrote:Small, isolated incidents by individuals or fringe factions for the percieved betterment of Humanity within that region, do not equal "Xenos Protectorates" tbh.

It does shows that even Imperium is ready to take it's hate aside to combat a common threat.
13'th Black Crusade and Eldar aid to the Imperial Navy is good example for that.

Totally agree BC, Im just saying cooperating with Xenos in limited ways and times is much different to having Xenos enclaves or vast areas where they thrive under the Imperium. I admit Melissa probably wasnt getting at that but it could be interpreted that way.

Tadashi wrote:Re-education camps/indoctrination the Greater Good - how is that different from what the Ecclesiarchy does with Imperial religion?

After WW2, the Western Allies indoctrinated proven Nazis with ideas of democracy and human rights. How is that different from Nazi indoctrination (no really, think about it, if you don't get the difference)

Tadashi wrote:The castes are all conditioned to function under the Ethereals, they can function just as well without an Ethereal - look at Farsight.

Without Ethereals, the other castes could have had a damn fine bloody civil war ending the Tau race. But those ethereal spoil-funs stopped the massacre and now everyone must live in a peaceful society, how cruel!

BTW Melissia has read enough Tau threads to know that she is spreading false information, so it is deliberate.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:I know thats what eventually drew me to them, it took a while, and was what actually kept me in the hobby, I had long ago tired of the gothic and overly dark atmosphere of the setting its unique quality had grown stale to me.

But something new sparked my interest, and I dabbled in the Tau and their worldview and look, and it rekindled my ethusiasim for the game and setting.

Now I know there are many non-tau fans who find them un-fitting to the setting and such are set against them being less grimdark then their own favorite race/army whatnot. Thats fine you dont have to play them collect them or even read about them, and if its such a issue you dont even need to play against them, unless tournies are your thing.
And if in future editions GW sees itself fit to darken them yet further oh well not much we can do about it, I will likely continue in the same vein as I have been for a few years now, and maintain my Septs much more hopeful mindset.

That's exactly my take on it. After playing Tyranids in 2nd edition and a frustrating 3rd edition starter box, I quit 40k, until Tau gave a fresh start as being the only race not wanting to kill everything in sight with foam coming from their mouths. Even if Mat Ward decides to make them Chaos tau, I will go on playing them as intended.

Do you really think that Matt Ward would make a Chaos Tau...? Or is this just a Matt Ward beat down? I thought the whole purpose and creation of the Tau was to be a race without Chaos, or am I just delusional?

In the next codex, I'd really like to see the conflict between farsight and the empire get bigger. Not sure if it should be a real civil war, but there should be a bigger rift that threatens the facade of the empire.

Rented Tritium wrote:In the next codex, I'd really like to see the conflict between farsight and the empire get bigger. Not sure if it should be a real civil war, but there should be a bigger rift that threatens the facade of the empire.

Agreed! I think that the conflict should be a lot bigger, and like you said not full on civil war but like a little more apparent in the codex. Maybe some even more separatists, like Farsight, but I'm still not sure about chaos...

Rented Tritium wrote:In the next codex, I'd really like to see the conflict between farsight and the empire get bigger. Not sure if it should be a real civil war, but there should be a bigger rift that threatens the facade of the empire.

I would also want to see Farsight to kill all Ethereals, declare himself an Emperor of Tau and start a crusade against the Imeprium.
That woudl be great to see.

Thanks for the information regarding the protectorates. I was aware of the shaky alliances held together at times of need and trade occasionally. I think maybe I'll start taking Melissia's posts with a grain of salt.

Brother Coa wrote:

Rented Tritium wrote:In the next codex, I'd really like to see the conflict between farsight and the empire get bigger. Not sure if it should be a real civil war, but there should be a bigger rift that threatens the facade of the empire.

I would also want to see Farsight to kill all Ethereals, declare himself an Emperor of Tau and start a crusade against the Imeprium.
That woudl be great to see.

That would actually be a REALLY good story. As a part of the new codex, Farsight Declares war on all of the Ethereal's and he creates some tension among the Castes and then the Ethereal's are no longer completely trusted. OHHHHHHHH MAN

Kroothawk wrote:
BTW Melissia has read enough Tau threads to know that she is spreading false information, so it is deliberate

Come on Kroothawk, we all know what are you dreaming every night:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
BTW Melissia has read enough Tau threads to know that she is spreading false information, so it is deliberate

Come on Kroothawk, we all know what are you dreaming every night:

Spoiler:

Pot calling the kettle etc etc etc.

Seriously people, where is your sense of humor?

Brother Coa wrote:I would also want to see Farsight to kill all Ethereals, declare himself an Emperor of Tau and start a crusade against the Imeprium.
That woudl be great to see.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:That would actually be a REALLY good story. As a part of the new codex, Farsight Declares war on all of the Ethereal's and he creates some tension among the Castes and then the Ethereal's are no longer completely trusted. OHHHHHHHH MAN

No Tau thread complete without posts like these
Enjoy your genocide fantasies ... in private

Once upon a time the Tau were grimdark...

BEHOLD!



There once was a mind/pheremone control organ!!!

I know it's really hard for people to understand but "foot" is a generic term for the things animals stand on.

Hooves come in all kinds of shapes and sizes! Did you know that Elephants, Rhinos, Deer and thousands of other animals have hooves that don't look like horse hooves! Amazing!

Kroothawk wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I would also want to see Farsight to kill all Ethereals, declare himself an Emperor of Tau and start a crusade against the Imeprium.
That woudl be great to see.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:That would actually be a REALLY good story. As a part of the new codex, Farsight Declares war on all of the Ethereal's and he creates some tension among the Castes and then the Ethereal's are no longer completely trusted. OHHHHHHHH MAN

No Tau thread complete without posts like these
Enjoy your genocide fantasies ... in private

Take a chill pill there KrootHawk, its just the group polarization kicking in, there is absolutely no chance of that happening. And I like the Tau the way they are right now. Haha okay?

I like to think that the Tau are somewhere in the middle. The ethereals do have the pheromones, but they only sway you in their direction, not total obedience. They do accept others into the Tau Empire, but I think they're a bit more heavy handed on other species than they let on.

2 cents deposited, returning to depressing life. Have a nice day.

DeffDred wrote:There once was a mind/pheremone control organ!!!

And it only appeared in one licensed product, namely the Xenology book, and recently got ridiculed in FFG's take on the setting.

DeffDred wrote:I know it's really hard for people to understand but "foot" is a generic term for the things animals stand on.

This has nothing to do with terms. You can look at GW's miniatures whose legs look nothing like that on the picture.

To reiterate: There is no "one true canon" for 40k. One source can say something, another can contradict it. And both are equally right. This is as per the people who actually write the damn stuff.
Or in short: Xenology offers one interpretation for the Tau. It's not the only one. Like it? Pick it. Just be aware that it isn't any more "true" than any other opinion of the people in this thread.

This has nothing to do with terms. You can look at GW's miniatures whose legs look nothing like that on the picture.

The minatures are wearing clothes. There is nothing to say the Tau arent wearing boots.

Infact, does it say they have hooves in the codex? I haven't looked in that codex in a long time.

To me Tau are the newbs of 40k. Thus are unworthy of my marine-loving attention.

DeffDred wrote:

This has nothing to do with terms. You can look at GW's miniatures whose legs look nothing like that on the picture.

The minatures are wearing clothes. There is nothing to say the Tau arent wearing boots.

Infact, does it say they have hooves in the codex? I haven't looked in that codex in a long time.

To me Tau are the newbs of 40k. Thus are unworthy of my marine-loving attention.

Maybe they don't want your "marine-loving attention" anway. Haha just kidding bud, no worries

DeffDred wrote:

This has nothing to do with terms. You can look at GW's miniatures whose legs look nothing like that on the picture.

The minatures are wearing clothes. There is nothing to say the Tau arent wearing boots.

Infact, does it say they have hooves in the codex? I haven't looked in that codex in a long time.

To me Tau are the newbs of 40k. Thus are unworthy of my marine-loving attention.

no boots there..

most of the other ethereals do have boots or some form of robes covering their feet, but those are hooves in that pic

Funny thing is...


the newer Ethereal sculpts dont have a forehead gem, or at least a pronounced one at anyrate.

The thing about the Grater Good. It can be used for almost anything. Eat your peas for the grater good. I must shoot you in the face now, but it is for the grater good. How evil or good all comes down to how the aun interprets the GG in that case.

Kroothawk wrote:I wouldn't trust you anyway

BTW no Xeno joins Tau society, at best he joins the tau Empire. That is an important differenciation.

Now I'm no Tau expert, but didn't they try to make friends with the Necrons before they were shot in the face with gauss fire?

nurgl wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I wouldn't trust you anyway

BTW no Xeno joins Tau society, at best he joins the tau Empire. That is an important differenciation.

Now I'm no Tau expert, but didn't they try to make friends with the Necrons before they were shot in the face with gauss fire?

I'm pretty sure the Tau just offered them a type of welcoming, and then the Necrons shot them in the face.

nurgl wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I wouldn't trust you anyway

BTW no Xeno joins Tau society, at best he joins the tau Empire. That is an important differenciation.

Now I'm no Tau expert, but didn't they try to make friends with the Necrons before they were shot in the face with gauss fire?

Some Necrons helped the Tau fend off a Tyranid invasion, only to be harvested by their one time saviors.

nurgl wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I wouldn't trust you anyway

BTW no Xeno joins Tau society, at best he joins the tau Empire. That is an important differenciation.

Now I'm no Tau expert, but didn't they try to make friends with the Necrons before they were shot in the face with gauss fire?

That they did. The only ones they won't welcome into the Greater Good are Orks and Tyranids. When I played Dark Crusade as CSM, they even offered me (as Eliphas the Inheritor) a chance to join the Greater Good. Imagine that, offering a Dark Apostle a chance to become an atheist. Not gonna happen.

They're so naive it's funny.

Tadashi wrote:They're so naive it's funny.

Perhaps not so naive, but they do have a supreme confidence in their own dogma and abilities. They see someone help them ally against one of their sworn enemies they have given up on converting to the Greater Good, they are more apt to be receptive to that force.

DeffDred wrote:The minatures are wearing clothes. There is nothing to say the Tau arent wearing boots.
Infact, does it say they have hooves in the codex? I haven't looked in that codex in a long time.
To me Tau are the newbs of 40k. Thus are unworthy of my marine-loving attention.

We appreciate that you have never read the Tau Codex and never looked at a Tau miniature, but still let us participate in your expert opinion on Tau

WarOne wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They're so naive it's funny.

Perhaps not so naive, but they do have a supreme confidence in their own dogma and abilities. They see someone help them ally against one of their sworn enemies they have given up on converting to the Greater Good, they are more apt to be receptive to that force.

"I have seen the result of blind trust...trust must be proved."
- Captain Iacton Qruze, The Last Remembrancer

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

the newer Ethereal sculpts dont have a forehead gem, or at least a pronounced one at anyrate.

If you don't see it, that means it's working.

I don't know if we want to take advice from a race that sees ignorance as a a good thing.

The tau are naive to a fault though. It's like there hat. They are the only sane man in a world full of crazy and that makes them the crazy one.

nomotog wrote:I don't know if we want to take advice from a race that sees ignorance as a a good thing.

The tau are naive to a fault though. It's like there hat. They are the only sane man in a world full of crazy and that makes them the crazy one.

They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

I like the phermone / something control idea, I mean, I've based my entire tau raiders fandex off it.

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't know if we want to take advice from a race that sees ignorance as a a good thing.

The tau are naive to a fault though. It's like there hat. They are the only sane man in a world full of crazy and that makes them the crazy one.

They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

There is merit in being crazy, really, the Tau are limited by there stiff social structure as well as the fact when the "Greater Good" is looked at under a microscope by non-Tau it falls apart entirely.

They will need to stand up and say they are out for conquest, no shame in it considering how the rest of the Galaxy acts.

Alexzandvar wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't know if we want to take advice from a race that sees ignorance as a a good thing.

The tau are naive to a fault though. It's like there hat. They are the only sane man in a world full of crazy and that makes them the crazy one.

They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

There is merit in being crazy, really, the Tau are limited by there stiff social structure as well as the fact when the "Greater Good" is looked at under a microscope by non-Tau it falls apart entirely.

They will need to stand up and say they are out for conquest, no shame in it considering how the rest of the Galaxy acts.

Anything else is heresy.

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't know if we want to take advice from a race that sees ignorance as a a good thing.

The tau are naive to a fault though. It's like there hat. They are the only sane man in a world full of crazy and that makes them the crazy one.

They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

By waking up I hope you mean incredibly paranoid of anything other they aren't familiar with.

Tadashi, broken pic link dude.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't know if we want to take advice from a race that sees ignorance as a a good thing.

The tau are naive to a fault though. It's like there hat. They are the only sane man in a world full of crazy and that makes them the crazy one.

They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

By waking up I hope you mean incredibly paranoid of anything other they aren't familiar with.

The question is: can they maintain their faith in the Greater Good despite all the darkness of the galaxy?

nurgl wrote:Tadashi, broken pic link dude.

Strange. Works fine here.

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't know if we want to take advice from a race that sees ignorance as a a good thing.

The tau are naive to a fault though. It's like there hat. They are the only sane man in a world full of crazy and that makes them the crazy one.

They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

That would completely ruin them, but it might happen.

Tadashi wrote:Strange. Works fine here.

It just may be my end, but all I'm getting is the little white box with the red x
can i has link?

Tadashi wrote:

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't know if we want to take advice from a race that sees ignorance as a a good thing.

The tau are naive to a fault though. It's like there hat. They are the only sane man in a world full of crazy and that makes them the crazy one.

They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

By waking up I hope you mean incredibly paranoid of anything other they aren't familiar with.

The question is: can they maintain their faith in the Greater Good despite all the darkness of the galaxy?

nurgl wrote:Tadashi, broken pic link dude.

Strange. Works fine here.

I think they have done a great job so far. Only one schism that has been brought to the attention of the whole empire, and he was Farsight, a giant power hungry general who probably only wanted fame and power in the first place.
And he is right, the link is broken.

Alexzandvar wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't know if we want to take advice from a race that sees ignorance as a a good thing.

The tau are naive to a fault though. It's like there hat. They are the only sane man in a world full of crazy and that makes them the crazy one.

They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

There is merit in being crazy, really, the Tau are limited by there stiff social structure as well as the fact when the "Greater Good" is looked at under a microscope by non-Tau it falls apart entirely.

They will need to stand up and say they are out for conquest, no shame in it considering how the rest of the Galaxy acts.

On the contrary, the idea of the Greater Good is actualy quite logical. By ( preferably peacefuly ) incorporating other lifeforms as equals ( *coughs* of course the Tau stay first among equals, somene has to lead after all ) into the Empire they not only profit from that lifeform's unique abilityies and knowledge but also spare themself the bloodshed that comes with actualy trying to apply force. What some would call naivety is merely a somewhat more open minded approach to even strange looking and acting cultures.
It served them well with the Kroot, the Nicassar, the Vespid and possibly many others. It didn't work so well with the Necrons ( hehe, it's not as if the Imperium of Man would have a better record in that regard. Oh look Magos XY! A strange ruin, let's plunder it for exotic technologies... ) and the Dark Eldar but that doesn't mean that the open minded approach, especialy by a species which needs all the allies it can get, by itself is wrong.

As I said many times in Afghanistan, "Don't mistake Kindness for weakness."

Tau always try what they belive is the easiest approach first, diplomacy, sometimes it works sometimes it does not, its easier to make peace before making war, the opposite is not alays as easy.

They definetly use a carrot or stick approach, but hey thats what makes them a different force in the 40k universe, everyone else already has the full monty genocide bent, its nice to have alternate approach.

And nowhere do the Tau dispute the fact that they intend on extending their rule/influance its just that they use more means than military. Cultural, political, material are all angles they can and do use.

So the Naive desciber used by some is in itself naive, they will not make the same mistake again with the same race, they just treat each race as its own distinct encounter and do not let other races color their approach, sure they will fail from time to time, but the sucesses more than make up for it.

nurgl wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Strange. Works fine here.

It just may be my end, but all I'm getting is the little white box with the red x
can i has link?

http://1d4chan.org/images/8/83/HeresyStamp.png

Just some food for thought for those that never thought about the whole mind control angle and like it, when the tau first meet the vespid the had the communication helms constructed to bypass the language barrier. They gave these helms to all the ruling class of vespid who immediately agreed to join the greater good.

To be honest I like the tau, and think they have that rotten grimdark center, but also like the Farsight declares war idea. Just have him do so, but not actually succeeding yet. Gives them a reason to fight on the tabletop and also creates some internal strife. It could prove very interesting.

Tadashi wrote:They'll wake up soon enough. Farsight has, and sooner or later, the other Tau will too, just like how Mankind 'woke up' after the Horus Heresy.

Yes, someday, every decent man will wake up and learn that a good massacre is better than living in a peaceful society

DarbNilbirts wrote:Just some food for thought for those that never thought about the whole mind control angle and like it, when the tau first meet the vespid the had the communication helms constructed to bypass the language barrier. They gave these helms to all the ruling class of vespid who immediately agreed to join the greater good.

Of course the less grimdark interpretation is that the idea of the Greater Good is quite appealing to an insect hive society which already operates on a similar principle.
Once the language barrier was broken it wasn't suprising that the Vespid joined the Greater Hiv..erm, Greater Good

Kroothawk wrote:
Yes, someday, every decent man will wake up and learn that a good massacre is better than living in a peaceful society

Well the Human living at Nimbosa were peaceful society, until Tau came and massacre them to the last men, women and child.
Just saying.....

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Yes, someday, every decent man will wake up and learn that a good massacre is better than living in a peaceful society

Well the Human living at Nimbosa were peaceful society, until Tau came and massacre them to the last men, women and child.
Just saying.....

Well, that is something you are making up. "Brightsword traped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter" ( Codex Tau Empire, 4.ed, p.15 ).
For that he was summoned back to T'au. Civilians weren't directly affected by the massacre since they simply didn't participate in the battle. Cities of Death equaly fails to mention any unusualy high amount of civilian casualties or a deliberate massacre of the civilian population.

Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.
They are still the good guys.
How? By comparison.

gabrielhorus wrote:Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.
They are still the good guys.
How? By comparison.

The Tau are NOT communist. They are Utilitarianism. There is a difference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
Where are you hearing about these camps? DOW? That is far from proper Cannon, plus its not really a GW product so it still can't really be taken seriously.

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.
They are still the good guys.
How? By comparison.

The Tau are NOT communist. They are Utilitarianism. There is a difference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
Where are you hearing about these camps? DOW? That is far from proper Canon, plus its not really a GW product so it still can't really be taken seriously.

Games Workshop was required to approve all fluff based aspects of the game.
And the Communism/Utilitarianism thing doesn't really apply. The point is what fanatics are willing to do for that cause.

gabrielhorus wrote:

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

gabrielhorus wrote:Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.
They are still the good guys.
How? By comparison.

The Tau are NOT communist. They are Utilitarianism. There is a difference. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
Where are you hearing about these camps? DOW? That is far from proper Canon, plus its not really a GW product so it still can't really be taken seriously.

Games Workshop was required to approve all fluff based aspects of the game.
And the Communism/Utilitarianism thing doesn't really apply. The point is what fanatics are willing to do for that cause.

Well even if you do believe DOW cannon you have to take it with a grain of salt, because it is all being seen from an Imperial point of view, and its not like they are bias or anything And your right they are fanatics, but not commie fanatics. And it kind of does apply because you didn't call them commies in your first post. Just saying.

Both the Tau and the imperium, and everyone for the matter, are fanatical for their ideals/religion/way of life, so you can really hold that against them when its par for the course. Tau have a "good" image due to their default response not being to just kill everything else but them, which is kinda unique in 40k, especially as something that spans the whole race and not just factions.

Once more:

Gav Thorpe wrote:With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong.

There is no such thing as a "fact" in this franchise. Only various different interpretations acting as suggestions.
An example: It's nice that GW might take a look at THQ's games, but arguably that didn't prevent the appearance of a different 2nd Company Master in the Space Marine game, or certain "weird" weapons and their usage. GW also looks at Black Library novels and still you get Goto's Lasermarines and similar stuff. What GW does is provide suggestions and answer questions, basically supporting the people working with their license. What GW does not do is check evere minute detail on how it meshes with their own version of the 'verse:

Gav Thorpe wrote:In this regard it is the job of authors and games developers to illuminate and inspire, not to dictate. Perhaps you disagree with the portrayal of a certain faction, or a facet of their society doesn’t make sense in your version of the world. You may not like the answers presented, but in asking the question you can come up with a solution that matches your vision. As long as certain central themes and principles remain, you can pick and choose which parts you like and dislike.

... and that's precisely why there is so much conflicting information between the various books and games of this franchise. Including the Tau's portrayal in DoW.

Gav Thorpe wrote:The same applies to transference from Black Library back into the gaming supplements. If the developers and other creative folks believe a contribution by an author fits the bill and has an appeal to the audience, why not fold it back into the ‘game’ world – such as Gaunt’s Ghosts or characters from the Gotrek and Felix series. On the other hand, if an author has a bit of a wobbly moment, there’s no pressure to feel that it has to be accepted into the worldview promulgated by the codexes and army books.

Note I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm merely pointing out it is just one way to portray them. It's not the ultimate one.

Brother Coa wrote:Well the Human living at Nimbosa were peaceful society, until Tau came and massacre them to the last men, women and child.
Just saying.....

... until a Farsight pupil came and did a massacre, for which he was sacked immediately. Read the context: We are talking about the massacre happy Farsight followers and the rest of the Tau (that Tadashi wants to wake up and be massacre happy as well).

gabrielhorus wrote:Simple facts:
The Tau are fanatical space communists that desire all other races to be absorbed into their empire.
They have been known to use sterilisation programs and labour camps to break the will of a world.

Simple facts: No. See the designer notes I quoted in this thread and the source in my sig for the commie thing.
BTW if the Tau were fantatics, they would have a massive warp presence which they haven't.

Even if you consider all campaign ending of the non-GW game to be canon at the same time (meaning that this planet is owned by humans, Tau, Necrons, Orks, Chaos AND Eldar), the Imperial narrator in the Tau ending is speculating, why men and women living in separate camps have less children than men and women living together. Beside sterilization, there is a much simpler natural explanation (ask Mom and Dad about it ).

AtariAssasin wrote:What?! Since when? I've never heard that before, do you have a source?

The most well known example right now is in Codex: Grey Knights.

The Jokaero are a Xeno race that is an Imperial protectorate.

Kroothawk and Coa are just being trolls when they claim that I am making gak up and lying about the background. But trolling is pretty much normal for them in Tau threads, so I'm not at all surprised.

Brother Coa wrote:Seriously people, where is your sense of humor?

I would have a sense of humor if you weren't calling me a liar the moment I looked away from the thread.

Go dive in to the drops at an ork camp.

Melissia wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Seriously people, where is your sense of humor?

I would have a sense of humor if you weren't calling me a liar the moment I looked away from the thread.

Go dive in to the drops at an ork camp.

I am sorry, I don't understand. When did I call you a liar?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:
Well, that is something you are making up. "Brightsword traped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter" ( Codex Tau Empire, 4.ed, p.15 ).
For that he was summoned back to T'au. Civilians weren't directly affected by the massacre since they simply didn't participate in the battle. Cities of Death equaly fails to mention any unusualy high amount of civilian casualties or a deliberate massacre of the civilian population.

That's codex Tau, I read in "Cities of Death" that main reason he was recalled from the front is because his troops started to kill civilians. That shocked the Etherials so they recalled him to T'au. This shows that even the Etherials sometimes have difficulty to control their own commanders. But I admit I exaggerated a little, they didn't kill all of the civilians in the end.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:
... until a Farsight pupil came and did a massacre, for which he was sacked immediately. Read the context: We are talking about the massacre happy Farsight followers and the rest of the Tau (that Tadashi wants to wake up and be massacre happy as well).

And I know that, I am just staying on OP and give a prof that Tau can be grimdark to in some aspects.

It was kroothawk that said it, but you're basically grouped iwth him anyway at this point.

My thread has grown to 4 pages...I'm so proud!

Fralethepalewhale wrote:My thread has grown to 4 pages...I'm so proud!

Good that we at least make someone happy

Melissia wrote:It was kroothawk that said it, but you're basically grouped with him anyway at this point.

Uh, I am not. He is still calling this whole thread "Tau butcher party" and I am still trying to prove that Tau are grimdark and evil even if he is trying his best to ignore me and to break down my theory. In addition to that I am still defending the Imperium.
The only thing i am agreeing with him is DoW cannon, endings from Marines and Guard is DC and SS are real ones and all others should be discounted. And as for your point of sterilization and camps I agree with you because that thing is also mentioned in a Inquisitorial report in "Deathwatch", even if Tau fans claim that there is little evidence to this and it's likely an Imperial propaganda.

And next time please don't quote me for something I didn't said, it makes me unpleasant.

Does it actually say in Deathwatch that Tau use sterilization?

Not exactly, the report just mentioned that in a some amount of time Human population declined on a planet with no logical explanation at all. Sterilization is the only logical answer to it, that or Humans on that planet decided to move deeper into Tau Empire in large number.

Could also be a result of prosperity, if one wished to give it a positive spin. History and contemporary census data have shown that humanity seems to reproduce faster the more miserable its situation is. Just look to Africa compared to, say, Germany where population is currently in decline.

Probably a natural reaction designed to counterbalance more a greater mortality rate amongst the populace with more children - many of them won't survive as they'd only make the situation worse, but the continued existence of the species is assured as population numbers continue to grow.

Conversely, in 1st world nations, lots of people get too lazy or too busy to bother with children or even relationships. As the need to have a large family (to have the kids help with the workload) subsides, procreation turns from necessity into luxury.

Or maybe the Tau simply have some sort of policy that limits the amount of children a family can have, like - y'know - China (funny sidenote: enter "China" and "greater good" into google and see how many results pop up).

Or maybe there really is forced sterilization, not because the Tau wish to eradicate the human species (which they did not do with the others already part of their Empire either) but simply as a means to optimize population numbers, all for the Greater Good.

... it could be any number of things, and I think people need to realize that each of these options is just as viable as the next. Especially as the sources are not consistent and tend to contradict each other all the time.

It's true what you say about 1st world nations. They tend to have negative population growth and rely on immigartion to increase their population. However, do we know how long a period of time this obsever noticed the population decline? If it was not over several generations then that explanation is probably not why.

Maybe the tau really did wipe out the humans. For the GG of coarse. It might be that the tau consider humans a violent illogical race with few few positive qualities and with how the IoM acts they could be right. Think of the day the earth stood still, only without the good ending.

It dose seem to be that the tau like humans the least of everyone.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:However, do we know how long a period of time this obsever noticed the population decline? If it was not over several generations then that explanation is probably not why.

Aye, that's a good question.

Of course, forced sterilization or even just a simple law takes some time to leave noticeable results, too. In this light, it might also be worth knowing whether those observers have infiltrated the databanks of the colony and "stolen" census data for comparison, or if they simply noticed there's fewer people on the streets. Which, for what it's worth, might also be some sort of curfew or part of a relocation program from the cities to other regions of the planet - or the other way around.

I actually remember suggesting empty streets and a "suspiciously clean environment" to a DH or DW GM who inquired about how to portray a Tau-controlled world, to give it a "creepy" spin, heh.

Personally, I'm still undecided on the whole sterilization thing, possibly because I tend to gravitate towards the aforementioned "happy medium" between communist paradise and malicious tyranny. I think I prefer the version where it gets applied on a limited scale as a measure to "balance" population numbers.

nomotog wrote:Maybe the tau really did wipe out the humans.

As always, this seems to depend on which source you look at.

This was on GW's Gue'vesa article:

"These humans, often the descendants of troops captured or abandoned during the abortive Damocles Crusade, now live and fight alongside the Tau. For them, fate has dictated that the Imperial Creed and the rule of the Adeptus Terra be replaced by loyalty to the collectivist Tau empire and to the ruling Ethereal caste. [...] The rapid redeployment left many human soldiers stranded; a situation soon exploited by the famous Commander Farsight as he followed in the wake of the retreating Human fleet, offering those left behind the stark choice of integration into the Tau empire, or a bleak future as prisoners of war. Faced with the proposition of being stranded many light years from home in a hostile and foreign region, many saw no alternative. These warriors and their offspring now maintain colonies on the frontiers of Tau space, content under their new masters yet none the less apprehensive of Imperial retribution should they face another crusade."

Naturally, there would be no offspring if sterilization would have been employed.

Those are actually two cases years apart. It's likely the tau like humans less and less with each war.

Essentially, the Tau are nice just like Orks are funny, what they do is abhorrent by today's standards, but in the setting they're good relative to everyone else, just like Ork violence is funny in the setting. The Tau may brainwash people, sterilise them and once war has been declared to mercilessly butcher folks. But compare this to the virus bombing of hive cities, the callous expenditure of human life through forlorn hope charges and the destruction of whole planets as part of a scorched earth policy, methods employed by the Imperium, inflicted upon ITSELF. Or the harvesting of life with weapons that strip you down layer by layer or flay you in seconds, the general KILL! MAIM! BURN! thing going for Chaos, the sick b******s of the DE (I won't even delve into what they get up to), the general savagery of the Orks, the blood lust and human sacrifice of the Eldar and the imminent doom that is the Tyranids. Compared to these, the Tau are like rubber ducks.

nomotog wrote:Those are actually two cases years apart. It's likely the tau like humans less and less with each war.

That would be one option, yeah. On the other hand, the article also mentioned how respected the Gue'vesa became to be amongst the Tau over these very same years, so it would seem that any such sentiment would not be cast upon humanity as a whole. At least as far as the writers at GW are concerned, anyhow.

Brave New World was a book that predicted that society would be ruined by things we enjoy, unlike 1984 which predicted the opposite. There was no suffering, no unhappiness but also no love. If someone died, no one would miss them. There wasn't anything. The Tau sound more like a Hindu society with expansionist ambitions. They're grimdark in the sense that their leaders are beyond reproach. But, as you very well know, there are worse things than Tau lurking amongst the stars, so that knocks them down a few notches on the grimdark scale.

Lynata wrote:That would be one option, yeah. On the other hand, the article also mentioned how respected the Gue'vesa became to be amongst the Tau over these very same years, so it would seem that any such sentiment would not be cast upon humanity as a whole. At least as far as the writers at GW are concerned, anyhow.

Still not respected enough to be put in leadership positions, which wouldn't really leave humans satisfied, heh.


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Brother Coa wrote:And next time please don't quote me for something I didn't said, it makes me unpleasant.

I didn't quote you at all, so you can be quiet now

Brother Coa wrote:
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KingDeath wrote:
Well, that is something you are making up. "Brightsword traped the Imperium's forces within a narrow gorge and systematically destroyed them in a three-hour slaughter" ( Codex Tau Empire, 4.ed, p.15 ).
For that he was summoned back to T'au. Civilians weren't directly affected by the massacre since they simply didn't participate in the battle. Cities of Death equaly fails to mention any unusualy high amount of civilian casualties or a deliberate massacre of the civilian population.

That's codex Tau, I read in "Cities of Death" that main reason he was recalled from the front is because his troops started to kill civilians. That shocked the Etherials so they recalled him to T'au. This shows that even the Etherials sometimes have difficulty to control their own commanders. But I admit I exaggerated a little, they didn't kill all of the civilians in the end.

As i have already mentioned in my post, Cities of Death (p.56-57) does NOT mention any civilian casualties. In fact it doesn't even mention that Brightsword was recalled to T'au.

Melissia wrote:Still not respected enough to be put in leadership positions, which wouldn't really leave humans satisfied, heh.

Well, the article did say they were content. I suppose it's better to be a Gue'vesa Trooper than to have a chance to become an Imperial Guard Sergeant. On the other hand, humans integrated into the Tau Empire may not know that the Imperium tends to segragate its people into castes just as much. Some sort of revolutionary movement amongst young humans who, unlike their ancestors, have no idea how good they live and how the Imperium actually looks like, but favour it on the grounds of it being run by humans alone (possibly furthered by Ecclesiarchy infiltrators) would be an interesting idea, I think.

I've also seen fanworks regarding humans in higher positions of the Tau hierarchy, but personally I don't think that meshes well with the theme of their Empire. Even though they seem to allow inducted races leadership and representation on a small scale (Kroot Shapers, Vespid Strain Leaders, Human Gue'vesa'ui), the Ethereals are the ones truly in control - and Gue'vesa does mean "Helper", making human troops limited to a subservient supporting role.
It'd be interesting to see how their colonies would be run in accordance with the vision of the GW writers, though. For now, I like to think that they'd have some sort of mixed government with a human representative/advisor, but there's also an Ethereal who can veto or has to approve everything. A little like the occupied territories during the European colonial age.

Oh, here's the Gue'vesa article, by the way: http://web.archive.org/web/20080420071331/http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/tau-auxiliaries/

Somehow, the best way I can think of the Tau can control so many races that under normal circumstances would kill each other is through subliminal messaging. I mean, why would Humans even want to live with aliens. I mean, ever since the Age of Strife, Mankind's xenophobia is basically second-nature. Even those 'language-helms' somehow remind me of mind-control helmets I saw in Macross 7.

Humans aren't born with a preference, they are conditions by the imperium to hate xenos, the first ones to join see it as a join or die situation, while their descendants will have been conditioned to favor the tau empire over their unenlightened brothers in the imperium.

Tadashi wrote:I mean, ever since the Age of Strife, Mankind's xenophobia is basically second-nature.

It's a matter of education. Or indoctrination, if you will. You don't need mind control if you simply teach people what they are supposed to believe - this goes for the IoM just as much as it goes for the Tau Empire.

There's sufficient examples for this in the real world, too. Stuff like racism, nationalism or sexism is more cultural than genetic. All of it has to do with our instincts (the drive to explore, conquer and dominate), but in the end all that matters is how you deal with them. For what it's worth, poverty and envy seem to act as a catalyst for all these negative traits, as people begin looking for scapegoats to blame and victims to dominate/exploit. Remove the poverty and the envy, and your civilization is much less likely to develop xenophobic tendencies (see various non-hostile indigenious cultures). There's pride, too, but that bit is even easier to deal with if you simply refocus their cultural identity from "we are humans" to "we are citizens of the great Tau Empire". For what it's worth, the Tau do have the psychological "advantage" of these humans having been left behind by their own Imperium with only the Tau to care for them, and the treatment they were subjected to was surprisingly gentle, compared to what they expected would happen thanks to Imperial propaganda (and what they knew would have happened if it had been the other way around). A pretty good start.

Frankly I am surprised that Tau trust Humans at all to integrate them to their empire.
Knowing our history, we would have to rebel some time after. Humans are like that - they don't suffer others being in charge of them.

I am even more surprised that they allow Humans to preach the Imperial Creed in Tau Empire. And we all know from Siege of Vraks how that can be used to ignite rebellion.

I don't know but I think that they would allow Human psykers to live and to experiment with their powers. Daemon invasion anyone? Note that even if original Human colony don't have psykers one must be born someday and who say that Chaos won't use it to transport Daemons onto that world?

Brother Coa wrote:Frankly I am surprised that Tau trust Humans at all to integrate them to their empire.
Knowing our history, we would have to rebel some time after. Humans are like that - they don't suffer others being in charge of them.

I am even more surprised that they allow Humans to preach the Imperial Creed in Tau Empire. And we all know from Siege of Vraks how that can be used to ignite rebellion.

I don't know but I think that they would allow Human psykers to live and to experiment with their powers. Daemon invasion anyone? Note that even if original Human colony don't have psykers one must be born someday and who say that Chaos won't use it to transport Daemons onto that world?

Well they could try sterilization. You allow them to live and benefit from the GG, but you also make sure they don't over populate and put the other members of the collective at risk. It's all for the GG.

Melissia wrote:The most well known example right now is in Codex: Grey Knights.

The Jokaero are a Xeno race that is an Imperial protectorate.

Could be wrong here but I thought that the IoM used a two-stage process for this:-

1 Is the xeno species sapient?

Y: Purge!

N: See #2;

2 Is the xeno species useful to the IoM?

Y: Exploit it

N: No immediate action required, but purge it eventually just to be on the safe side (see the disturbing case of the tau to illustrate what happens when you don't do this in a timely fashion).

Clearly there will be some room for fudge-ing in the definition of 'sapient' should usefulness be immense but sapience border-line. The Jokaero have the great good fortune to be No (...) Yes!+++++, so they're a Protectorate of the IoM.

I'm doubtful that there are any sapient-xeno IoM Protectorates to be found, whether useful or not.

tsz52 wrote:

Melissia wrote:The most well known example right now is in Codex: Grey Knights.

The Jokaero are a Xeno race that is an Imperial protectorate.

Could be wrong here but I thought that the IoM used a two-stage process for this:-

1 Is the xeno species sapient?

Y: Purge!

N: See #2;

2 Is the xeno species useful to the IoM?

Y: Exploit it

N: No immediate action required, but purge it eventually just to be on the safe side (see the disturbing case of the tau to illustrate what happens when you don't do this in a timely fashion).

Clearly there will be some room for fudge-ing in the definition of 'sapient' should usefulness be immense but sapience border-line. The Jokaero have the great good fortune to be No (...) Yes!+++++, so they're a Protectorate of the IoM.

I'm doubtful that there are any sapient-xeno IoM Protectorates to be found, whether useful or not.

You sir, have got it. The Jokaero don't qualify as Sapiant-enough to purge (yet are massively useful) and voila: Imperium's only protectorate where they protect the aliens.

The Imperium doesn't destroy every sapient race it comes across. Just the hostile ones.

It just so happens taht most alien races are hostile by the Imperium's definition of hostile.

If memory serves, the Tau word for greater good is Mon'Tau (Though I may be completely wrong) so that means that the Tau means either 'greater' or 'good. Or I'm wrong. Cheerio with the trolling.

Mon'tau is their word for the time before the etherials saved the race from self extermination, it their closest concept to hell on earth and is feared above all else. Tau'va means greater good. Ko'vash tau'va is for the greater good.

Melissia wrote:The Imperium doesn't destroy every sapient race it comes across. Just the hostile ones.

It just so happens taht most alien races are hostile by the Imperium's definition of hostile.

The IoM are the hostile ones. I don't know why you insist on trying to portray The Imperium as friendly.
You know who's a good example? The Tau. They tried to ethnically cleanse the Tau when they discovered the ability to wear animal skins. The reason given why: Routine.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The IoM are the hostile ones. I don't know why you insist on trying to portray The Imperium as friendly.

I didn't try to portray the Imperium as friendly.

Just sane and logical in its actions.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The IoM are the hostile ones. I don't know why you insist on trying to portray The Imperium as friendly.

I didn't try to portray the Imperium as friendly.

Just sane and logical in its actions.

And in a galaxy like 40k the Imperium's xenocidal policies are sane and logical. Quit trying to "Tau" them up.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:The IoM are the hostile ones. I don't know why you insist on trying to portray The Imperium as friendly.

I didn't try to portray the Imperium as friendly.

Just sane and logical in its actions.

I don't think you are meant to do that.

Lynata wrote:

Fralethepalewhale wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Even though the Tau are hardly 100% innocent, they're still a helluva better then anyone else and I'd much rather live under Tau rule. I stand by that.

Until you're put in to a slave camp and have your balls cut off so you can't breed, right?

I thought that was only in the Dawn of War series, where does it actually say that in the fluff? Unless your counting DOW as your fluff.

It's all fluff. But fluff contradicts other fluff fairly often. According to Gav Thorpe, there is no distinction in importance or "truthness" between studio material and licensed productions - they are all just different interpretations of the same 'verse, none being more valid than the other, and you're supposed to pick what you like, or come up with your own ideas.

Though even in DoW it wasn't quite stated this dramatically. Not that this would not mean that one couldn't simply take it that way if he or she so wished.

I would be hesitant of regarding Black Library and what not as 100% canon, and outright dismissive of the DoW series as canon. In my opinion, the only reliable source of fluff is the GW codices. Black Library books are often times contradictory, even if they are by the same author: Dan Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts series portrays Imperial Guardsmen as being able to fight Space Marines, while Brothers of the Snake describes 11 Space Marines completely annihilating thousands upon thousands of Dark Eldar. The DoW series... isn't exactly fluff accurate, to say the least. One scene in the series involves a Guardsmen telling his commander "Sir, a shipment of 100 Baneblades has gone out to serve-". The commander was asking about how many Baneblades they had. This implies that they lost 100 Baneblades, or were going to get these Baneblades, but didn't. Yeah... a hundred Baneblades. I don't need to say anything else.

This is just one example: there are numerous other fluff inaccuracies in the DoW series. It's just a video game, which is secondary canon. This is similar to the newly released Space Marine, which, if taken at face value as fluff, means that a Space Marine Captain can hack his way through a Warboss, probably a company's worth of Iron Warriors, and a Daemon Prince pretty much one right after the other.

I digress, this isn't a thread about what qualifies as canon. It's about the Tau. The Tau have a lot of ranged firepower, but even they can be put down with a bayonet charge and enough men (yeah, you know what regiment I'm into).

The grimdarkest part of the Tau is even with the most enlightened faction in the entire 40k universe things like massacres happen. No matter how shinny the ideals everyone in the universe is capable of atrocity and that my friends is the grimdark in a way that is more unsettling than any Orc "Waaagh".

Melissia wrote:Still not respected enough to be put in leadership positions, which wouldn't really leave humans satisfied, heh.

Tau have many wars with humans. So not making humans lead their armies is a minimum security measure. Esp. as even Tau know how often humans betray other people and become corrupt. They are not THAT naive. That's also why fanatised human prisoners of war are not allowed to do what they want but held in prisoner camps. On mining planets like Taros, where everybody works in mines, prisoners of war also work in mines, but that's not slavery. Otherwise you would still have state-sanctioned slavery in USA.

BTW have a look at my avatar and you see a general of the Tau Empire army.

Kroothawk wrote:
Tau have many wars with humans. So not making humans lead their armies is a minimum security measure. Esp. as even Tau know how often humans betray other people and become corrupt. They are not THAT naive. That's also why fanatised human prisoners of war are not allowed to do what they want but held in prisoner camps. On mining planets like Taros, where everybody works in mines, prisoners of war also work in mines, but that's not slavery. Otherwise you would still have state-sanctioned slavery in USA.

Japanese prisoners of war in WW2 that were in American work camps did nothing and British and US prisoners of war in German WW2 camp that did nothing is not slavery.
However, Polish, Yugoslavian and Soviet prisoners of war that worked to death in German camps in WW2 were slaves to Nazi Germany, miners on Taros also work until they die.

BTW have a look at my avatar and you see a general of the Tau Empire army.

BTW, you see this picture and you see a hero to the Human race, ready to defend her and vanquish it's foes:



Back to topic at hand: one other thing that makes Tau grimdark is no individualism except Etherials. Tau born in one cast is deemed to the service until death in it, without any hope to transfer to another caste or to become Leader of the people himself ( like FW to rise and became Etherial. Humans have grater advantage here, take Creed for example who rose from whiteshield to become Lord Castelian of Cadia. ).

He's still not human, Kroothawk.

It's still racism. The Tau are often just as racist as the Imperium, if not moreso for they enslave, which is worse than the death the Imperium usually offers.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:And in a galaxy like 40k the Imperium's xenocidal policies are sane and logical.

Exactly. The Imperium is xenocidal because aliens are hostile as a general rule.

But there is plenty of evidence that the Imperium DOES work with non-hostile xenos. For example, here was a race mentioned to have worked with the Imperial Navy, its own navy teaming up with the IN to fight a Tyranid fleet-- then they left on good terms and the Imperium did not pursue a xenocidal campaign against them (no, I'm not talking about BA vs Crons, it was a minor race which has yet to be referenced again to my knowledge).

It's just that there's not many xeno races like that to begin with.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Tau have many wars with humans. So not making humans lead their armies is a minimum security measure. Esp. as even Tau know how often humans betray other people and become corrupt. They are not THAT naive. That's also why fanatised human prisoners of war are not allowed to do what they want but held in prisoner camps. On mining planets like Taros, where everybody works in mines, prisoners of war also work in mines, but that's not slavery. Otherwise you would still have state-sanctioned slavery in USA.

Japanese prisoners of war in WW2 that were in American work camps did nothing and British and US prisoners of war in German WW2 camp that did nothing is not slavery.
However, Polish, Yugoslavian and Soviet prisoners of war that worked to death in German camps in WW2 were slaves to Nazi Germany, miners on Taros also work until they die.

Since using POWs as labour was, with some stipulations ( no officers, no war related work, work had to be safe ) permited by the Geneva convention all the major nations which participated in WW2 used smoe pf their POWs to lessen their labour shortages. So, if you say that british and us prisoners in german camps or japanese prisoners in american camps did nothing then you are plainly wrong.
Of course you are right when you mention that east european POWs in german camps were, unlike their comrades from the western allies, worked to death.

Sadly you are once again wrong when you claim that the POWs on Taros were worked to death. All we know is that they were made to work in the mines. We have no idea on their living conditions ( is the work save? ) and no idea if and when they are freed. Their fate after the Taros campaign remains open for speculation. If you wish to believe that they were worked to death then you are of course free to do so. Just keep in mind that there is no fluff to support this believe.


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Melissia wrote:He's still not human, Kroothawk.

It's still racism. The Tau are often just as racist as the Imperium, if not moreso for they enslave, which is worse than the death the Imperium usually offers.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:And in a galaxy like 40k the Imperium's xenocidal policies are sane and logical.

Exactly. The Imperium is xenocidal because aliens are hostile as a general rule.

But there is plenty of evidence that the Imperium DOES work with non-hostile xenos. For example, here was a race mentioned to have worked with the Imperial Navy, its own navy teaming up with the IN to fight a Tyranid fleet-- then they left on good terms and the Imperium did not pursue a xenocidal campaign against them (no, I'm not talking about BA vs Crons, it was a minor race which has yet to be referenced again to my knowledge).

It's just that there's not many xeno races like that to begin with.

Funnily enough the Cimmeriac, part of Admiral Harroth's fleet, were destroyed by Harroth just five years after they helped to defeat Jormungandr.

KingDeath wrote:
Since using POWs as labour was, with some stipulations ( no officers, no war related work, work had to be safe ) permited by the Geneva convention all the major nations which participated in WW2 used smoe pf their POWs to lessen their labour shortages. So, if you say that british and us prisoners in german camps or japanese prisoners in american camps did nothing then you are plainly wrong

Funny thing is that we know from their stories that they were treated well. Japanese prisoners of war ( I am talking about Japanese that lived in US when war broke out and had to be put away in prisons ). Russians and Yugoslavians had different fate, they worked in German factories and mines and being treated poorly. We to know this from reports of the survivors. Then we have German ghettos etc... ( I know you and Kroothawk are Germans but facts are that your people did some horrifying things during the war to all. Others did to but I think Germans and Japanese will always bee on top. Of course that was the fault of their leaders and not the people - same as we during the 1990's ). And I am glad that you agree with me on work to death.

As for Taros - yes I do believe that they worked to death. Because what would Tau do to them if not use them to their needs?
Give them pension after 30 years work in the mines? Send them back to the Imperium? Treat them like Germans treated Hitler when he was in jail?
One thing is sure - they will probably spend rest of their lives in imprisonment.

Brother Coa wrote:
As for Taros - yes I do believe that they worked to death. Because what would Tau do to them if not use them to their needs?
Give them pension after 30 years work in the mines? Send them back to the Imperium? Treat them like Germans treated Hitler when he was in jail?
One thing is sure - they will probably spend rest of their lives in imprisonment.

You forgot the true fanatic's option, convert them to the Greater Good. There is nothing more pleasing for a true fanatic than to convert a former nonbeliefer to the one, true faith. Even lip service is good enough for the first generation, the second might show genuine faith.
There is little reason why all but the most fanatical Guardsmen would remain defiant if we keep the possible benefits ( freedom, good living conditions, safety ) of joining the Tau in mind.
After all, more or less the same happened after the Damocles Crusade.



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Brother Coa wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
Since using POWs as labour was, with some stipulations ( no officers, no war related work, work had to be safe ) permited by the Geneva convention all the major nations which participated in WW2 used smoe pf their POWs to lessen their labour shortages. So, if you say that british and us prisoners in german camps or japanese prisoners in american camps did nothing then you are plainly wrong

Funny thing is that we know from their stories that they were treated well. Japanese prisoners of war ( I am talking about Japanese that lived in US when war broke out and had to be put away in prisons ). Russians and Yugoslavians had different fate, they worked in German factories and mines and being treated poorly. We to know this from reports of the survivors. Then we have German ghettos etc... ( I know you and Kroothawk are Germans but facts are that your people did some horrifying things during the war to all. Others did to but I think Germans and Japanese will always bee on top. Of course that was the fault of their leaders and not the people - same as we during the 1990's ). And I am glad that you agree with me on work to death.

The point is not that i wish to doubt or justify the poor conditions under which east european POW's had to endure ( for that would be typical right wing historical revisionism which i loath ), my point is merely that using POW's as labour was legal and therefore done by the western allies as well ( just as some western POW's were used to work in german factories, although under generaly much better conditions than their eastern counterparts ). As such the Tau on Taros did nothing unusual ( especialy since we cannot simply assume that the living conditions of their POW's are poor ), even by our standards. The fate of the japanese americans, as lamentable as it is, is no no concern for this discussion since they weren't POWs but interned civilians. German Ghettos had nothing to do whatever with
the entire POW issue but served a totaly different purpose ( although one could argue that the exceptionaly poor treatment of east european POWs ultimately served the same genocidial end that awaited the inhabitants of the Ghettos ). Still, this has very little to do with the Taros POWs.

Your claim that this was the fault of their leaders, although surely meant friendly, is inaccurate. While i am no friend of the collective guilt thesis the opposite of blaming merely the leaders is equaly, or even more, wrong, both for Japan and Germany.

Melissia wrote:He's still not human, Kroothawk.

It's still racism. The Tau are often just as racist as the Imperium, if not moreso for they enslave, which is worse than the death the Imperium usually offers.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:And in a galaxy like 40k the Imperium's xenocidal policies are sane and logical.

Exactly. The Imperium is xenocidal because aliens are hostile as a general rule.

But there is plenty of evidence that the Imperium DOES work with non-hostile xenos. For example, here was a race mentioned to have worked with the Imperial Navy, its own navy teaming up with the IN to fight a Tyranid fleet-- then they left on good terms and the Imperium did not pursue a xenocidal campaign against them (no, I'm not talking about BA vs Crons, it was a minor race which has yet to be referenced again to my knowledge).

It's just that there's not many xeno races like that to begin with.

Nobody said that the IoM doesn't make temporary alliances. That's a very different thing. The IoM will do whatever it takes to survive a crisis and those are field decisions. Don't worry, they'll get around to 'dealing' with those allies later. The encounter reports will be filed with Administratum, and after a million "i"s have been dotted and "T"s crossed those Xenos will be seeing their human friends again.

Many of the actions of the tau can be seen as 'evil' by certain standards, but that doesn't mean the tau themselves deem it as such - this is getting into a really murky area about whose standards we should be using, and this is something that is quite true in real life in many of the same contexts.

Now as far as the sterilizations go - the Tau are big on population control and management. This can range from the planning and organization of cities to control over the reproduction of the inhabitants (Deathwatch RPG even mentions that the sterilizations are a population control measure.) Now to a human this might seem horrific to us - we aren't used to those kinds of restrictions - but it does make a certain sense. Reflect on the dangers of unregulated, rampant reproduction. It can lead to increased pollution, resource exhaustion, overcrowding, and ecological devastation. we've seen that in 40K Hive worlds. So in that light it would make sense for the tau to manage things, and under their 'Greater Good' idea, this is not a nasty, evil act because they are doing what they feel is in the best interests of those within their Empire. For me at least, that's the chilling thing about the tau - they can be nice, and well meaning, but they will also quite deliberately lie, manipulate, annihilate or conquer anyone if they believe it serves the interests of their Greater Good, and they won't see it as wrong because they do think this is in YOUR best interests - whether you think so or not. To them freedom is more of a secondary (or tertiary) concern - it is the whole that matters more. It's an ideology with almost religious force for them, and they almost never question or deviate from it (again it's not evil to them.) But it also means the tau aren't super secret mustache-twirling evil villain types - any more than you can accuse the Imperium of that.

It's also a bit amusing that the Imperium would, if it could pull it off, do the exact same thing with humans that the Tau have done with themselves. The Administratum and Munitorum would LOVE a massive populace of obedient, unthinking people who never question orders and always know their place instinctively.

But at the same time its silly to try to pretend the Tau are all sweetness and light. evne back in third edition they weren't wholly good (I'm pretty sure thre was a story blurb somewhere of a rail rifle mind linkage which fried out the brain of a Fire Warrior and this was considered acceptable losses, for example) but we know from 4th onwards that they weren't.

Cities of Death:


EVIL TAU. Except that its an individual (of high rank) and known to be somehwat of a belligerent sort to begin with - just because an individual might be a nasty piece of work does not condemn the entire race (if it did the Imperium would be in bigger trouble...)

4th edition tau codex


Again 'evil' - but this is the sort of thing that can be justified in the context of 'Greater Good' - it is vital and neccessary to the continuation of the tau Empire and the expansion of the Greater Good, so it by definition cannot be an evil act. Many governments throughout history (even in fairly recent times) do morally questionable things to ensure the survival or continuation of their government - yet I am certain there would be arguemnt over whether that made the governments in question (and the people under those governments) inherently evil.

I would also close by saying I dislike the term 'grimdark' because its an overly simplistic label, and its a rather blatant attempt to oversimplify just what the tau (or any other faction in 40K) are about.

Brother Coa wrote:miners on Taros also work until they die.

I am always amazed how some people feel no shame at all to post made up things as official GW background.

Brother Coa wrote:Back to topic at hand: one other thing that makes Tau grimdark is no individualism except Etherials.

Asian mentality, that doesn't have the Western concept of individualism, is not grimdark.

Melissia wrote:It's still racism. The Tau are often just as racist as the Imperium, if not moreso for they enslave, which is worse than the death the Imperium usually offers.

If an army fights an enemy, and choses to not make a member of the enemy fraction their leader and reveal all military secrets to him, just because he said he is now on your side a year ago, then that is not racism but minimal security requirement. Tau are not that dumb. That said, human armies fighting for Tau usually keep their officers.

Banzaimash wrote:Essentially, the Tau are nice just like Orks are funny, what they do is abhorrent by today's standards, but in the setting they're good relative to everyone else, just like Ork violence is funny in the setting. The Tau may brainwash people, sterilise them and once war has been declared to mercilessly butcher folks. But compare this to the virus bombing of hive cities, the callous expenditure of human life through forlorn hope charges and the destruction of whole planets as part of a scorched earth policy, methods employed by the Imperium, inflicted upon ITSELF. Or the harvesting of life with weapons that strip you down layer by layer or flay you in seconds, the general KILL! MAIM! BURN! thing going for Chaos, the sick b******s of the DE (I won't even delve into what they get up to), the general savagery of the Orks, the blood lust and human sacrifice of the Eldar and the imminent doom that is the Tyranids. Compared to these, the Tau are like rubber ducks.

This made me laugh so hard I may just explode

--------------------------

Brother Coa wrote :
Back to topic at hand: one other thing that makes Tau grimdark is no individualism except Etherials.

So no individualism huh..
Farsight
Brightsword
O'Ralai
Shadowsun
O'Rymr
O'Kais

no differeances here no individualisms, especially Farsight... that guy really can't think for himself.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:

So no individualism huh..
Farsight ( only true free Tau )
Brightsword ( dead lunatic, thank the Emperor for taht )
O'Ralai ( loyal servant, no chance of becoming more )
Shadowsun ( loyal servant, no chance of becoming more )
O'Rymr ( loyal servant, no chance of becoming more )
O'Kais ( loyal servant, no chance of becoming more )

Just like in the Imperium - nobody remembers lone generals but everybody remembers Governors Militants. By "Individualism" here I meant chance to advance and became a Leader or whatever you want in your society. Tau can't advance outside their own Caste and that means if someone want's to be an leader like Ethereal from an Earth Caste he can't. Instead those aside Ethereal Caste will always be servants and nothing more.


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Kroothawk wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:miners on Taros also work until they die.

I am always amazed how some people feel no shame at all to post made up things as official GW background.

You are right, I totally forgot that Tau given them pension and private houses as a reward for working liek slaves in those mines
Until you provide me what happened to those captured Guardsman in the end I will assume that they die or submit to the Tau.

Asian mentality, that doesn't have the Western concept of individualism, is not grimdark.

I think that modern Asians would disagree with you. But you are right about North Korea, China and Vietnam at least...there are no individuals there only leaders.

I'm not sure why the same conversation about the Tau always happens in the exact same way.

Purposefully Misinterpreting the fluff. Fan Hate. False Information. Thread Lock

We've had the first three...

Brother Coa you obviously dont grasp the Tau society structure or insist on being obtuse.

Fire caste : govern all thing military, all generals and such come from this caste.
Air caste : govern all things airborne or space, all admirals and aerospace engineers come from that.
Water caste : govern all things merchantile and diplomatic, planetary governors and ambasadors come from this caste.
Earth caste : govern colonial affairs, and technology , Industrial managers and materials/technology engineers come from that.

And the Ethereals are the glue that makes all of it work together, no fire caste becomes a water caste, no earth becomes a air, no ethereal becomes anything else, each find fufillment within its own career and life field, its the nature of their society and race.

It the main principle of the Greater Good each being contributing in its own way to furthur its aims, its basically like a MOS in the military, its a highly structured and inclusive society, and its not a human society.
Tau become leaders within their own castes, amoungst their own peers, even ethereals have rank within their caste.

and BTW Coa i did not write what you quoted your little additions should be elsewhere.

besides I cant remeber the last space marine that became a lord of terra....

Medium of death wrote:
I'm not sure why the same conversation about the Tau always happens in the exact same way.

Purposefully Misinterpreting the fluff. Fan Hate. False Information. Thread Lock

We've had the first three...

yup and likely bans as well...such is the fate of all Tau threads once some people get it on their radar.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:yup and likely bans as well...such is the fate of all Tau threads once some people get it on their radar.

It would help if people didn't, for example, refer to each other as 'obtuse' just because they happen to disagree on a point of fluff for a game of toy soldiers...

Soo'Vah'Cha: Yeah it's really disappointing what happens to Tau threads on Dakka, and I've never, ever seen it anywhere else. I'm down with W**d hate and so on, and love the IoM as much as the next man and woman... but Tau hate?! Just don't get it... and I'm usually pretty good at understanding stuff - have you got any theories on this, to help me out? Perhaps start a new thread on this? I'll leave it to you - I'm sure you know best.

And yup to your point about developing the different Septs - plenty of fans (40k TT and BFG) already all over that.

That's the main thing I find attractive about the Tau as a faction; they have an evolving tale being told, which can take us into lots of interesting territory - hope GW does it right... but in the likely event that it won't, the fans will.

I know folks roll their eyes but I also like their rights of passage vibe; naive and idealistic child changing, hardening and going darker when confronted by the actual realities of the universe - how much of what they were (as described in the original designer's notes) will remain at the end? So I'm interested in their gradual darkening. Here we'd be getting into Koestler's 'ends justifying the means?' dystopian trilogy.

Fralethepalewhale: Don't worry about folks finding you crazy for your 'Brave New World' comparison; it's been discussed here and there already, with a lot of folks having the same take as yours.

The Great Crusade had ugly, underlying elements of 'We', then IoM went '1984'. Question is: is this because those methods really are the least-worst option for assuring humanity's survival in the post-HH universe (literally optimistic; 'best possible world'); or is the Emperor the god of oppression and using those methods purely for their own sake (as is the case in '1984'... minus the god bit of course)?

Tau are 'Brave New World' (though don't use superficial triviality to drown out quality and substance - they still promote excellence rather than safe mediocrity). It's inevitable that you'll get into cultural moral relativism in any debate like this, but the 'Gasp! Eugenics! Evil!' thing has an interesting parallel with our real world, since it's only post-Nazis that it's become a knee-jerk dirty word that = the foulest evil.

Though 'liberals' try to keep it quiet, a huge segment of the 'liberal' intelligentsia was actually pro-eugenics, pre the Nazi horrors coming to light a while later. This is reflected in 'Brave New World', since Huxley was actually quite ambivalent about the issue when he wrote it - it wasn't written as a 100% dystopia (unlike 'We' or '1984') - and it's only real world events and changes in world-view that retroactively classified it as one. I personally don't think it is: most of the people therein are perfectly happy and the elite running tings is genuinely benign. It's a (particularly pre-WWII) 'liberal' elitist's wet dream (the masses being the benignly treated 'bewildered herd'). Hardly the 'priests of power' with their 'boot on a human face forever' of a proper dystopian novel.

Point is wind the clock back: The Ethereals are little blue Huxleys altruistically embarking upon a programme of population control for Utilitarian purposes (assuming that they actually are - you picks your source), and their WWII hasn't come yet (but will).

[I hope I don't seem like I'm taking this way too seriously but I'm writing a tale, and value depth and substance (and verisimiltude) so I'm trying to get right into the nuts and guts of the different factions; Tau are very prominent in my Book I.]

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Brother Coa you obviously dont grasp the Tau society structure or insist on being obtuse.
Fire caste : govern all thing military, all generals and such come from this caste.
Air caste : govern all things airborne or space, all admirals and aerospace engineers come from that.
Water caste : govern all things merchantile and diplomatic, planetary governors and ambasadors come from this caste.
Earth caste : govern colonial affairs, and technology , Industrial managers and materials/technology engineers come from that.

And the Ethereals are the glue that makes all of it work together, no fire caste becomes a water caste, no earth becomes a air, no ethereal becomes anything else, each find fufillment within its own career and life field, its the nature of their society and race.

It the main principle of the Greater Good each being contributing in its own way to furthur its aims, its basically like a MOS in the military, its a highly structured and inclusive society, and its not a human society.
Tau become leaders within their own castes, amoungst their own peers, even ethereals have rank within their caste.

and BTW Coa i did not write what you quoted your little additions should be elsewhere.

Thank you for insulting me for not sharing the same impression on Tau society. I mealy said that in Imperium every peasant with a string of luck can become a planetary Governor, Space Marine Chapter Master, Imperial Guard General, Lord Inquisitor... Tau on the other hand cannot, one born in that caste stay in that caste until they die. And while some lucky FW can became commander he is still restricted with power because of the Etherials. Just because I have different view on a things I am a Tau hater? Nice defense but it's getting old.

besides I cant remeber the last space marine that became a lord of terra....

Roboute Guiliman was High Lord, Hurion was not a High lord but he had entire sector under his command.


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The point is with this OP that as time past Tau are getting more and more Grimdark.
They changed drastically from 3'rd edition to this date, evolving from a peaceful Empire that care about other races into conquering Empire with rumors about certain thing that it's using to control it's citizens.
I would be not surprised if they go drastically Grimdark in 6'th edition....

I do not understand why people love to talk about the Tau. All you do if repeat your arguments that have been written in the last 100 Tau threads.

Because people wouldn't listen and read?

Anyway, my theory on why Tau is such a debate is simply because their situation. They are a minor race with little over 100 planet, and people are representing them as a force that can beat entire Imperium of Mankind back to Terra and conquer Terra all together. Other thing is their very nature - they are not Grimdark enough. In a war torn galaxy where everyone is looking for themselves, and nobody is giving a damn for others, Tau appear and act like UN and ask for galactic peace under their rule.

When you combine all this you stop to wonder why Tau have smallest fan base in 40k.

Brother Coa wrote:In a war torn galaxy where everyone is looking for themselves, and nobody is giving a damn for others, Tau appear and act like UN and ask for galactic peace under their rule.

Why yes, the Tau do want to conquer the galaxy. Yes, the Ethereals do want to rule over everyone else.

Sure, it's not genocide, but so what? It's not exactly nice.

Brother Coa wrote:Because people wouldn't listen and read?

Anyway, my theory on why Tau is such a debate is simply because their situation. They are a minor race with little over 100 planet, and people are representing them as a force that can beat entire Imperium of Mankind back to Terra and conquer Terra all together. Other thing is their very nature - they are not Grimdark enough. In a war torn galaxy where everyone is looking for themselves, and nobody is giving a damn for others, Tau appear and act like UN and ask for galactic peace under their rule.

When you combine all this you stop to wonder why Tau have smallest fan base in 40k.

Is that so? Do the Tau have the smallest fanbase? You sure can offer some proof for you claim, do you?
Few if any people claim that the Tau can ( yet ) beat the entire Imperium, that's merely a strawman you just love to use.
You opinion that they are not grimdark enough, well, that's your opinion, no more and no less. Noone forces you to play them and others like them because they are different. I personaly hate the new Necrons and Grey Knights fluff ( in fact so much that i sold my small GK army ) with a passion but i do not see the need to spam every single Grey Knights threat with partialy made up nonsense about how the Necrons / Grey Knights are the antichrist of wargaming.

Brother Coa wrote:I think that modern Asians would disagree with you. But you are right about North Korea, China and Vietnam at least...there are no individuals there only leaders.

Okay, so you have no clue about East Asian culture. That's the reason why you don't understand the concept of the Tau race.
Can't find a good internet article on collectivist cultures ATM, but here are two I found:
http://www.via-web.de/individualism-versus-collectivism/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-10-27-Depression_culture_N.htm

tsz52 wrote:Soo'Vah'Cha: Yeah it's really disappointing what happens to Tau threads on Dakka, and I've never, ever seen it anywhere else.

Sadly, Tau threads on Warseer are exactly the same.

You know too much of a tau thread is complaining about tau threads. Though I never had any problems in my tau threads.

Its not the damn Tau debates that lock threads here. Its the personal stabs people make at each other. Its a game, chill out.

Its an entire universe based on hate and war, it doesn't surprise me at all to see people wanting a race to be whipped out. Seeing as how their fluff reflects the same opinion.

In the Warhammer 40k universe, there is only War, especially when it comes to Tau threads.
I rather liked tsz52's insightful comments and background on the theory and correlations between the Tau and real earth political thought in literature.
Their WWII is coming and it will be a gloriously rude evolution of things.

Connor MacLeod wrote:Many of the actions of the tau can be seen as 'evil' by certain standards, but that doesn't mean the tau themselves deem it as such

By that definition, sacrificing a thousand children to Khorne by bleeding them dry and stacking their skulls in to a pyramid isn't evil because it's not seen as such by the servants of Chaos.

Kroothawk wrote:If an army fights an enemy, and choses to not make a member of the enemy fraction their leader and reveal all military secrets to him, just because he said he is now on your side a year ago, then that is not racism but minimal security requirement.

So you're saying we Americans should never let any Americans of German descent run for president? Or Japanese? Or British? Or Middle-Eastern (specifically Iraq and Afghanistan)? Or French (French and Indian War), or Mexican? Prevent them from holding any office of authority, or raising to any officer rank in the armed forces?

Because that kind of restriction would, under your definition, be a minimum security requirement.

It would also be racist.

Just like the Tau are.

It'd be just as racist if Germany had a law that stated no person of Jewish descent can hold office in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

And hell, the Tau haven't gone to war with the Kroot but you still don't see any Kroot in the Ethereal (ruling) caste, they just aren't allowed there.

Face it, the Tau are very xenophobic.

Kroothawk wrote:
Okay, so you have no clue about East Asian culture. That's the reason why you don't understand the concept of the Tau race.
Can't find a good internet article on collectivist cultures ATM, but here are two I found:
http://www.via-web.de/individualism-versus-collectivism/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2009-10-27-Depression_culture_N.htm

Before you make false and utmost incorrect statements like that I can tell you that I understand Asians perfectly since I wanted to study history so I know that much.
Tau are society that have Japanese fell to them, Indian Caste system and Socialistic ideals of a "Grater Good" and equality of all other races.
But thank you for link, they were written by Americans and are incorrect as usual. But thanks for trying anyway.


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KingDeath wrote:
Is that so? Do the Tau have the smallest fanbase? You sure can offer some proof for you claim, do you?

In fact yes I do. Just see the threads in the last year, in "What's you favorite army" Tau usually score low, and in "what army you hate the most" they were right after Grey Knights and Space Wolves. Here only few poepel play Tau, most play Marines and Guard, that speak for itself.


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KingDeath wrote:
You opinion that they are not grimdark enough, well, that's your opinion, no more and no less. Noone forces you to play them and others like them because they are different. I personaly hate the new Necrons and Grey Knights fluff ( in fact so much that i sold my small GK army ) with a passion but i do not see the need to spam every single Grey Knights threat with partialy made up nonsense about how the Necrons / Grey Knights are the antichrist of wargaming.

That's you, i also have problem with new Grey Knights and Necrons and agrees to it when he thread is about that, it is only natural to debate on things you don't agree.
I personally have nothing against Tau, but like you said ( some ) people are giving them to much credit and think of them as "only pure race" in the galaxy. And can't accept that they are as bad in some things as Humans or Orks for example.

Warrior Squirrel wrote:I do not understand why people love to talk about the Tau. All you do if repeat your arguments that have been written in the last 100 Tau threads.

That's hardly unique to the Tau.

This is after all a discussion board with millions of posts about a toy soldier game aimed at 12 year olds in England. There's bound to be some repetition on any subject.

And if you're tired of reading about the Tau, there's an easy answer, read on of the other million threads here.

Or turn off the computer and go outside. That works too.

ANYWAY... scary mod voice

Yeah some people don't like the Tau or find them dull or whatever. That ain't no excuse for derailing a thread on them. If you don't like Tau, go read another thread.

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:If an army fights an enemy, and choses to not make a member of the enemy fraction their leader and reveal all military secrets to him, just because he said he is now on your side a year ago, then that is not racism but minimal security requirement.

So you're saying we Americans should never let any Americans of German descent run for president? Or Japanese? Or British? Or Middle-Eastern (specifically Iraq and Afghanistan)? Or French (French and Indian War), or Mexican? Prevent them from holding any office of authority, or raising to any officer rank in the armed forces?

Because that kind of restriction would, under your definition, be a minimum security requirement.

It would also be racist.

Just like the Tau are.

It'd be just as racist if Germany had a law that stated no person of Jewish descent can hold office in the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

And hell, the Tau haven't gone to war with the Kroot but you still don't see any Kroot in the Ethereal (ruling) caste, they just aren't allowed there.

Face it, the Tau are very xenophobic.

That's not xenophobic. You can call it xenoist (what is the word for discriminating based on species?), but it has more to do with the caste system.

Tadashi wrote:

nurgl wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I wouldn't trust you anyway

BTW no Xeno joins Tau society, at best he joins the tau Empire. That is an important differenciation.

Now I'm no Tau expert, but didn't they try to make friends with the Necrons before they were shot in the face with gauss fire?

That they did. The only ones they won't welcome into the Greater Good are Orks and Tyranids. When I played Dark Crusade as CSM, they even offered me (as Eliphas the Inheritor) a chance to join the Greater Good. Imagine that, offering a Dark Apostle a chance to become an atheist. Not gonna happen.

They're so naive it's funny.

So they are a bunch of naive Mobile Suite Gundam nerds!

Melissia wrote:So you're saying we Americans should never let any Americans of German descent run for president? Or Japanese? Or British? Or Middle-Eastern (specifically Iraq and Afghanistan)? Or French (French and Indian War), or Mexican

I think, I haven't said that. Right, just checked what I said. So it seems you made it up.
And maybe you haven't heard, but the US-constitution allows only "natural born citizens of the USA" to run for presidency or vice-presidency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause_of_the_U.S._Constitution

But I wouldn't recommend to make an Al Kaida terrorist the director of the CIA an hour after he said: "Okay, I am on your side now, believe me, it's true!"

Oh, and are ants racist just because they wouldn't allow Queen Elisabeth II. to rule an ant hill? Kroot and Tau are different species after all. And Kroot just don't belong to the subspecies of Ethereals even if they try hard

nomotog wrote:That's not xenophobic. You can call it xenoist (what is the word for discriminating based on species?), but it has more to do with the caste system.

If it's racist/xenoist/xenophobic, then it doesn't matter if it's a caste system or not.

Kroothawk wrote:And maybe you haven't heard, but the US-constitution allows only "natural born citizens of the USA" to run for presidency or vice-presidency.

Yes, but unlike the Tau empire, the descendants of those who share ethnicities with enemies in previous wars can in fact get elected to the leadership position.

There are humans who were born under Tau rule. They still can't enter the Ethereal caste or get any real command position. Because they're humans, and therefor in the Tau mind, inferior, like all non-Tau.

That the caste system itself is racist does not mean that the cast system itself is not racist.

Melissia wrote:There are humans who were born under Tau rule. They still can't enter the Ethereal caste or get any real command position.

Sometimes you have to accept that changing your species is very difficult

Kroothawk wrote:
Sometimes you have to accept that changing your species is very difficult

It's a racist (and thence specist, if that actually is a word) style of government. The Ethereals are above the rest of the Tau. The rest of the Tau generally seem to be above the other members of the Tau Empire. I've never heard of non-Tau commanding Tau, only the other way round (and man do the Kroot seem to take the most losses).

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
Sometimes you have to accept that changing your species is very difficult

It's a racist (and thence specist, if that actually is a word) style of government. The Ethereals are above the rest of the Tau. The rest of the Tau generally seem to be above the other members of the Tau Empire. I've never heard of non-Tau commanding Tau, only the other way round (and man do the Kroot seem to take the most losses).

It's called TAU Empire for a reason. and just like in any Empire of Royal Kingdom if you are not born into the ruling family or caste you cannot rule unless you overthrow the figure-heads. It's not racists just the way kingdoms/empires have been ruled. You probably haven't heard of Anghkor Prok then? He was a Kroot Shaper the lead Shas into battle.

DoctorZombie wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

nurgl wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:I wouldn't trust you anyway

BTW no Xeno joins Tau society, at best he joins the tau Empire. That is an important differenciation.

Now I'm no Tau expert, but didn't they try to make friends with the Necrons before they were shot in the face with gauss fire?

That they did. The only ones they won't welcome into the Greater Good are Orks and Tyranids. When I played Dark Crusade as CSM, they even offered me (as Eliphas the Inheritor) a chance to join the Greater Good. Imagine that, offering a Dark Apostle a chance to become an atheist. Not gonna happen.

They're so naive it's funny.

So they are a bunch of naive Mobile Suite Gundam nerds!

The aesthetic is much more similar to the Macross Valkyries.

To all Tau fans who believe you surpass us already and will one day replace us: feel free to invade. You might even double the size of your empire in less than a decade. But by then, you'd be overstretched, with your limited warp drives unable to reinforce quickly enough. Once Terra hears of your arrogance, the whole Ultima Segmentum will be mobilized against you. I'm sure you'll make the Guard and the Navy pay the butcher's bill, but once the Astartes and the Titan Legions arrive, we'll make you pay for everything with compound interest.

"We are the Imperium of Man. Prepare to die."

Tau are not evil by comparison. Instead of "Greetings, prepare to die," they say "Greetings, join us or die,"

Rather simple, but gets the point across.

moom241 wrote:Tau are not evil by comparison. Instead of "Greetings, prepare to die," they say "Greetings, join us or die,"

Rather simple, but gets the point across.

I'd sooner die.

Tadashi: But that's the point innit?: The threat the Tau poses to the IoM isn't really one of martial force but one of ideology and (material) comfort.

The Western 'democracies' didn't smash tanks through the Berlin Wall going Eastwards - just militarily held that line and made sure that the good folks to the East could see them driving about in BMWs, basking in their luxurious and free consumerist paradise... just made sure that its media also carried that relentless message over the Wall.

The odd opportunistic expeditionary adventure aside, that's Tau's best chance of winning: though obviously if His Divine Majesty's forces manage to get a few years where they're not spread too thin fighting higher priority targets before the Tau gain sufficient ideological critical mass amongst His subjects, then it's all over for the Tau.

But we have to assume that the latter will never happen, since the Tau are still popular enough for them to not be Squat-ed by GW.

So this is interesting since the Tau will have to grimdark (harden) themselves up a tad (and reduce material comfort levels in favour of war materiel spending) as their great good fortune in timing, circumstances and geography starts to wear out; but their only possible method of ultimate victory is to be visibly not too grimdark and still highly opulent (thus attractive to His oppressed subjects).

It'd all be a bit more interesting, with a tonne of intrigue and manipulation on both sides, than 'Tau get stupid, invade somewhere that the IoM simply can't afford to lose, IoM exterminates Tau'. There's that tension that the Tau can only possibly prevail in a long, long, patient game where they must constantly be seen as a low threat priority, but also mustn't be found too fragile when the clock eventually turns against them (which could be at any time).

Depends on who's doing the writing though, obviously.... If it's that guy who's as subtle as a crate of anvils then it'll be SC in XV∞+ Suit WTFPWNS! everything!!! and everybody will hate them, including the stalwart (then ex-) fans.

* * *

Brother Coa: Cheers for your theory. I hope that you don't find anything that I wrote above too objectionable (I'm trying to be realistic). Couple of genuine questions for your good self:-

1 Do you find the unique set of circumstances (timing and geography) set up by the studio writers implausible, in the way that it shielded the Tau to allow them to be less grimdark at the time?;

1a Do you have any time for the theory that other forces (eg Eldar) might have had a hand in this, for their own ineffable purposes?;

2 Isn't it likely that the poor SoB have a smaller fan base than the Tau (based upon an awful lot of circumstancial evidence)?

* * *

Generally: If a buzz-word must be used then 'speciesist' is the correct one. Used in a pretty similar way to how a vegan might use it. Always better to not use buzz-words though, when discussing things as complicated as world-views and Star-Empires' political systems. Too much important meaning is lost in the gross rounding down.

Not another "are tau grimdark" thread, oh god no.

The fact remains, they are by far the least grimdark faction in 40k. The IoM treats anything not noble like trash and works humans to death in mines like it ain't no thang and generally tries to be huge dicks to all it's citizens.

The Eldar murder entire population because of vague futures in which they may or may not cause a single eldar to die.

I hope I don't need to touch on the others.

Melissia wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:Many of the actions of the tau can be seen as 'evil' by certain standards, but that doesn't mean the tau themselves deem it as such

By that definition, sacrificing a thousand children to Khorne by bleeding them dry and stacking their skulls in to a pyramid isn't evil because it's not seen as such by the servants of Chaos.

Well, I suppose he could be right, because Good and Evil are in the eye of the beholder- perhaps sacrificing 1000 children to Khorne is seen as a noble and compassionate action by followers of Chaos. It's evil because we think it is.

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:There are humans who were born under Tau rule. They still can't enter the Ethereal caste or get any real command position.

Sometimes you have to accept that changing your species is very difficult

So basically you admit that the Tau are racist bastards.

"Oh, I'm sorry you were born black, but them's the breaks. Just try to enjoy your life as a slave."
Replace "black" with "non-Tau" and there you go.

tsz52 wrote:Tadashi: But that's the point innit?: The threat the Tau poses to the IoM isn't really one of martial force but one of ideology and (material) comfort.

The Western 'democracies' didn't smash tanks through the Berlin Wall going Eastwards - just militarily held that line and made sure that the good folks to the East could see them driving about in BMWs, basking in their luxurious and free consumerist paradise... just made sure that its media also carried that relentless message over the Wall.

The odd opportunistic expeditionary adventure aside, that's Tau's best chance of winning: though obviously if His Divine Majesty's forces manage to get a few years where they're not spread too thin fighting higher priority targets before the Tau gain sufficient ideological critical mass amongst His subjects, then it's all over for the Tau.

But we have to assume that the latter will never happen, since the Tau are still popular enough for them to not be Squat-ed by GW.

So this is interesting since the Tau will have to grimdark (harden) themselves up a tad (and reduce material comfort levels in favour of war materiel spending) as their great good fortune in timing, circumstances and geography starts to wear out; but their only possible method of ultimate victory is to be visibly not too grimdark and still highly opulent (thus attractive to His oppressed subjects).

It'd all be a bit more interesting, with a tonne of intrigue and manipulation on both sides, than 'Tau get stupid, invade somewhere that the IoM simply can't afford to lose, IoM exterminates Tau'. There's that tension that the Tau can only possibly prevail in a long, long, patient game where they must constantly be seen as a low threat priority, but also mustn't be found too fragile when the clock eventually turns against them (which could be at any time).

One thing you've forgotten...Chaos' very existence means that noblebright future = doesn't exist. In other words, Tau can't win. The Imperium and other grimdark factions are the only ones who have a future in the 40k universe.

Tadashi wrote:To all Tau fans who believe you surpass us already and will one day replace us: feel free to invade. You might even double the size of your empire in less than a decade. But by then, you'd be overstretched, with your limited warp drives unable to reinforce quickly enough. Once Terra hears of your arrogance, the whole Ultima Segmentum will be mobilized against you. I'm sure you'll make the Guard and the Navy pay the butcher's bill, but once the Astartes and the Titan Legions arrive, we'll make you pay for everything with compound interest.

"We are the Imperium of Man. Prepare to die."

I support this idea, listen to this men

Tadashi: I don't think that I described any noblebright future; and I'd hate to see one here - there's a reason that I prefer 40k to Star Trek. By 'winning' I meant something like 'surviving for the next thousand years, with decent consolidation of their Empire, and not having had to become too grimdark (how grimdark would be 'too grimdark?' being debatable) to achieve this.'

Don't forget that they might be able to become relatively stronger by simply holding where they are (whilst the IoM destroys the 'Nids in an epic Pyrrhic victory, say), with a bit more good 'luck' (or whatever's really going on that protects them) and cunning.

Melissia: Please, not 'racist'. It's 'speciesist'. Same as the IoM wouldn't let one of your Jokaero become a High Lord. Same as one wouldn't employ a gorilla to be a lab-tech or eat one's cat or the woman next door, but would happily eat a cow.

And basic quality of life trumps infintesimally small chance of reaching ruling elite status for most beings.

1 Working class life of 100-200 years ago (often worse than being a slave, actually, slaves being investments) coupled with a police state that would outrage the Stasi but there's an almost-zero chance that you might be able to become Prime Minister (but never King/Queen) one day. You can breed but you'll watch most of your children die;

2 Plenty of food and amenities, and decent working conditions with free time but you'll never be able to be the Prime Minister or King/Queen. (Add: and in certain places you may be forbidden from breeding, but in the places you aren't you can have fine plump kids likely to survive.)

Which do you pick?

How are the Tau not noblebright? They see themselves as bringing the Greater Good to an insane galaxy.

im2randomghgh wrote:Not another "are tau grimdark" thread, oh god no.

The fact remains, they are by far the least grimdark faction in 40k. The IoM treats anything not noble like trash and works humans to death in mines like it ain't no thang and generally tries to be huge dicks to all it's citizens.

The Eldar murder entire population because of vague futures in which they may or may not cause a single eldar to die.

I hope I don't need to touch on the others.

Then don't read the thread...... annoys the hell out of me when people act like the thread is a waste of time, and then they go ahead and post in it anyway.

The main threat from the Tau is their way of life. A grass is greener on the other side bit. However the imperium will get tired of its world converting to the greater good eventually. So the Tau should hope when that happens the ban on warp research is lifted! Or else they will lose all of the territory they gained until they are at a manageable size for short jumps again.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
The main threat from the Tau is their way of life. A grass is greener on the other side bit. However the imperium will get tired of its world converting to the greater good eventually. So the Tau should hope when that happens the ban on warp research is lifted! Or else they will lose all of the territory they gained until they are at a manageable size for short jumps again.

But if the ban is lifted, then they're at more or less at the same level of risk as everyone else is from the warp.

Melissia wrote:So basically you admit that the Tau are racist bastards.

Let's check what I said. No, i didn't say that. Seems you made it up again. Is that you favorite rhetoric tool?

Counterquestion: If a Tau wants to become an Ork and doesn't succeed, are the Orks racists? If an elephant wants to become a cockroach and doesn't succeed, are cockroaches racists?

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:So basically you admit that the Tau are racist bastards.

Let's check what I said. No, i didn't say that. Seems you made it up again. Is that you favorite rhetoric tool?

Counterquestion: If a Tau wants to become an Ork and doesn't succeed, are the Orks racists? If an elephant wants to become a cockroach and doesn't succeed, are cockroaches racists?

Calm down. What Melissa's trying to say is that for all claims of racial equality, Tau society is still just an Ethereal dictatorship. Quite sensible of her, actually.

Tadashi wrote:How are the Tau not noblebright? They see themselves as bringing the Greater Good to an insane galaxy.

A task in which they will fail. Then they'll try a different approach, and then another; each less noblebright than the last, and thus exacting a high cost upon the Tau psyche. That's their inevitable grimdark Tragedy, eh?

Don't forget that to them their ideology is deeply hardwired, unlike humies who are capable of swapping ideologies, that they would die for on any given day, like hats. Since this thread is (ostensibly) about tying the Tau tale into literature, there are few tales more grimdark than the ones that start with idealistic altruism then get ground down by reality into ever-escalatingly appalling 'ends justifying the means' compromises (in literature or reality/history).

Again, try to imagine ('The Gladiators') Koestler writing the Tau story, and where it would go, and how interesting (and effing grimdark!) it would be. Damn sight more grimdark than a bunch of Space Marines shooting a bunch of Chaos Space Marines... again....

The Tau have more narrative (and philosophical discourse) potential than most 40k factions (the state of play being what it is), and it's a shame that it gets so overlooked in these threads.

EDIT (having read your last post just posted): Once again:-

Racism: 'You are of my species (therefore almost identical) but have different skin colour, therefore are inferior... just... because....'

Speciesism: 'You are genetically very different with radically different attributes that make you less suitable for certain tasks than an alternative of a different species. This is not dogma, as it can be empirically proven. Get cats to catch mice, get labradors to be guide dogs, get pigeons to deliver messages.'

'OMG! Racist!' is generally as poor an argument as randomly and lazily invoking Hitler, for pretty much the same reason.

Or is anyone seriously suggesting that a humie (of a species infamous for its horrendous governorship) could govern as demonstrably well as an Ethereal (of a different species - not race - famous for its stellar governorship)?

tsz52 wrote:

Tadashi wrote:How are the Tau not noblebright? They see themselves as bringing the Greater Good to an insane galaxy.

A task in which they will fail. Then they'll try a different approach, and then another; each less noblebright than the last, and thus exacting a high cost upon the Tau psyche. That's their inevitable grimdark Tragedy, eh?

Don't forget that to them their ideology is deeply hardwired, unlike humies who are capable of swapping ideologies, that they would die for on any given day, like hats. Since this thread is (ostensibly) about tying the Tau tale into literature, there are few tales more grimdark than the ones that start with idealistic altruism then get ground down by reality into ever-escalatingly appalling 'ends justifying the means' compromises (in literature or reality/history).

Again, try to imagine ('The Gladiators') Koestler writing the Tau story, and where it would go, and how interesting (and effing grimdark!) it would be. Damn sight more grimdark than a bunch of Space Marines shooting a bunch of Chaos Space Marines... again....

The Tau have more narrative (and philosophical discourse) potential than most 40k factions (the state of play being what it is), and it's a shame that it gets so overlooked in these threads.

EDIT (having read your last post just posted): Once again:-

Racism: 'You are of my species (therefore almost identical) but have different skin colour, therefore are inferior... just... because....'

Speciesism: 'You are genetically very different with radically different attributes that make you less suitable for certain tasks than an alternative of a different species. This is not dogma, as it can be empirically proven. Get cats to catch mice, get labradors to be guide dogs, get pigeons to deliver messages.'

'OMG! Racist!' is generally as poor an argument as randomly and lazily invoking Hitler, for pretty much the same reason.

Or is anyone seriously suggesting that a humie (of a species infamous for its horrendous governorship) could govern as demonstrably well as an Ethereal (of a different species - not race - famous for its stellar governorship)?

Then they're damned from the beginning, as the Greater Good is epic fail from the very beginning. And how can the Ethereals be better rulers when they govern completely ignorant of everything that they have yet to face? I remember one Ethereal who actually welcomed Necrons only to get harvested. In that light, the High Lords of Terra are quite sensible. While they may be responsible for keeping Mankind oppressed, it's because they know what's out there, and their just fulfilling their duty as the acting rulers of the Imperium.

tsz52 wrote:Melissia: Please, not 'racist'. It's 'speciesist'. Same as the IoM wouldn't let one of your Jokaero become a High Lord.

The IoM doesn't claim to not be xenophobic, which at least means the IoM isn't hypocritical like the Tau are.


The Tau is racist AND speciesist. No Earth caste member can become Ethereal, after all, just as no humans can. It fits precisely the definition of an Apartheid government. The Tau accept non-Tau races, but only ass slaves, not as equals.


And you know what? If a monkey could think well enough to do science ,you're damned right we'd let him wear a lab coat. The monkey isn't sentient but if he was, he certainly could strive for that goal. Though to be fair, he'd have to wear a bodysuit of some kind to keep any shed fur from tainting samples (similar to the showercap like hats that human scientists often wear in the laboratory combined with the skin-covering clothing, masks, and goggles-- both protecting the scientist and the sample being tested). But that's more along the lines of a practical matter.

Melissia wrote:

tsz52 wrote:Melissia: Please, not 'racist'. It's 'speciesist'. Same as the IoM wouldn't let one of your Jokaero become a High Lord.

The IoM doesn't claim to not be xenophobic, which at least means the IoM isn't hypocritical like the Tau are.


The Tau is racist AND speciesist. No Earth caste member can become Ethereal, after all, just as no humans can.

In other words, the Tau say one thing and do another thing entirely. On the other hand, everyone else does what they say. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't all Castes just sub-species of the Tau species, and aren't sub-species capable of mating with one another, like the supposed theory that Homo Sapiens (real world) the result of mating between Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon Man? If so, isn't the Ethereals forbidding mating between Castes mean that their just trying to prevent the other Castes from gaining political power, Greater Good and racial/species equality not withstanding?

Interbreeding between the castes is strictly forbidden within Tau society, as it'll weaken the strengths of each caste.

I think in Farsights colonies mixed-caste Tau may exist.

Ovion wrote:Interbreeding between the castes is strictly forbidden within Tau society, as it'll weaken the strengths of each caste.

I think in Farsights colonies mixed-caste Tau may exist.

It also means that only Ethereals can truly control other Tau, although how Farsight broke free remains a question...if there are mixed breed Tau in the Enclaves, it begs the question, what do the Ethereals plan to do about it, assuming they reconquer the Enclaves? Will they kill them all? Sterilize them? The Ordo Xenos is gonna have a propaganda field day if that happens.

Tadashi wrote:

Ovion wrote:Interbreeding between the castes is strictly forbidden within Tau society, as it'll weaken the strengths of each caste.

I think in Farsights colonies mixed-caste Tau may exist.

It also means that only Ethereals can truly control other Tau, although how Farsight broke free remains a question...if there are mixed breed Tau in the Enclaves, it begs the question, what do the Ethereals plan to do about it, assuming they reconquer the Enclaves? Will they kill them all? Sterilize them? The Ordo Xenos is gonna have a propaganda field day if that happens.

Farsight was on a long campaign and through circumstance, all Ethereals that accompanied him died, as the campaign progressed and he moved further from establisehd Tau space, and spent longer away, whatever grip they had on him waned until he decided it was time he just went off on his own.

As far as I remember atm the Ethereals are investigating the enclaves, and kind of pretending it desn't exist.

Ovion wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Ovion wrote:Interbreeding between the castes is strictly forbidden within Tau society, as it'll weaken the strengths of each caste.

I think in Farsights colonies mixed-caste Tau may exist.

It also means that only Ethereals can truly control other Tau, although how Farsight broke free remains a question...if there are mixed breed Tau in the Enclaves, it begs the question, what do the Ethereals plan to do about it, assuming they reconquer the Enclaves? Will they kill them all? Sterilize them? The Ordo Xenos is gonna have a propaganda field day if that happens.

Farsight was on a long campaign and through circumstance, all Ethereals that accompanied him died, as the campaign progressed and he moved further from establisehd Tau space, and spent longer away, whatever grip they had on him waned until he decided it was time he just went off on his own.

So, if an Ethereal gets near him, Farsight might just rejoin the Empire? I hope not...that would be like saying the Blood Ravens are just Ultramarines with a mystical streak...

Assuming he lets an ethereal near him.

Ovion wrote:Assuming he lets an ethereal near him.

Considering the Tau's technology, it's only logical for their sensors to detect if an approaching ship has an Ethereal onboard. If that's the case, even if they're unarmed and were broadcasting a message that they were on a diplomatic mission, then the moment they get in range, they get vaporized by plasma fire. On that note, I have to ask...why are the Tau so dependent on plasma tech, unlike the Imperials and the Eldar (or to be honest, all Old One descended races like Orks) who prefer to use solid weapons or lasers?

Melissia wrote:The Tau is racist AND speciesist. No Earth caste member can become Ethereal, after all, just as no humans can. It fits precisely the definition of an Apartheid government. The Tau accept non-Tau races, but only ass slaves, not as equals.

Again: Ethereals are a subspecies of Tau. Even the most tolerant society can't change species and subspecies by a democratic vote.
And, just for you, I requote the original designer notes, because you obviously are not aware of them:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Tau is racist AND speciesist. No Earth caste member can become Ethereal, after all, just as no humans can. It fits precisely the definition of an Apartheid government. The Tau accept non-Tau races, but only ass slaves, not as equals.

Again: Ethereals are a subspecies of Tau. Even the most tolerant society can't change species and subspecies by a democratic vote.
And, just for you, I requote the original designer notes, because you obviously are not aware of them:

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

No subjugation? Are you serious? Weren't the original gue'vesa given choice to join the Empire or die? Isn't that the same choice offered to everyone they encounter? Something most of those encountered races seem to spit on that offer a lot.

Imperials: Xenos are filth
Chaos: Tau are atheists
Tyranids: nom nom nom
Eldar: Tau are naive
Dark Eldar: Tau are naive
Orks: peace is no fun
Necrons: Tau are naive

Thus far, most major factions/species seem to see the Tau as naive.

Melissia wrote:

tsz52 wrote:Melissia: Please, not 'racist'. It's 'speciesist'. Same as the IoM wouldn't let one of your Jokaero become a High Lord.

The IoM doesn't claim to not be xenophobic, which at least means the IoM isn't hypocritical like the Tau are.

The Tau is racist AND speciesist. No Earth caste member can become Ethereal, after all, just as no humans can. It fits precisely the definition of an Apartheid government. The Tau accept non-Tau races, but only ass slaves, not as equals.

And you know what? If a monkey could think well enough to do science ,you're damned right we'd let him wear a lab coat. The monkey isn't sentient but if he was, he certainly could strive for that goal. Though to be fair, he'd have to wear a bodysuit of some kind to keep any shed fur from tainting samples (similar to the showercap like hats that human scientists often wear in the laboratory combined with the skin-covering clothing, masks, and goggles-- both protecting the scientist and the sample being tested). But that's more along the lines of a practical matter.

Well, I didn't mention a non-existent type of monkey as a lab-tech, but a monkey (gorilla) as actually is; that being the point. Cheers for the mental image of a monkey in a body suit though

Since any meaningful debate can only begin with correct and mutually agreed upon terminology, with your biology head on: What would be the correct term for the relationship/difference between Tau castes? It's clearly at least one stage beyond race; breed?, sub-species? Then we can use that precise word and avoid the inflammatory (and incorrect) r-word... it's too serious a word to be chucking about, for a discussion about this (and incorrect); it devalues that word, and it's a word that should never be devalued (though it is, sadly, constantly).

Then we can look at whether it is actually prejudiced or simply pragmatic to use the right biologically specialised being for the right task (via Plato and Kant... and ants), if anyone wants....

Sub species, I think, but after millennia of no breeding, they're starting to become separate species.

Kroothawk wrote:Again: Ethereals are a subspecies of Tau.

This makes a difference how?

Oh wait, no it doesn't.

Only a specific subspecies of Tau can rule the Tau empire. Just like only a specific subspecies of humanity could rule Apartheid South Africa. They subjugate all non-Tau Ethereals, forcing them to be submissive to the Tau Ethereal caste which only allows the Ethereal subspecies of the Tau in.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

And I give a gak... how?

Oh wait, no I don't. The author's intent is irrelevant in comparison with the end result of the work.

If they wanted to incorporate other races without subjugating them, they'd treat them as equals. They don't.

Melissia wrote:

tsz52 wrote:Melissia: Please, not 'racist'. It's 'speciesist'. Same as the IoM wouldn't let one of your Jokaero become a High Lord.

The IoM doesn't claim to not be xenophobic, which at least means the IoM isn't hypocritical like the Tau are.


The Tau is racist AND speciesist. No Earth caste member can become Ethereal, after all, just as no humans can. It fits precisely the definition of an Apartheid government. The Tau accept non-Tau races, but only ass slaves, not as equals.

I'll say this again, the Tau Empire is similar to the Roman Empire in their conquests of Europe, Either you join us or die. You had to earn your Roman citizenship by serving in the Roman Army. The Tau however gave citizenship when you joined automatically.

The Tau Empire is like the British Empire of old. If you weren't born in the ruling family you could never become King or Queen of England. The British populace eventually grew tired of it and rebel against the King and made it more of a democracy. The Tau species, however, is just happy with the Ethereal's ruling them except Farsight.

All the Auxillary of the Tau Empire will never be able to rule the Tau Empire but they can hold positions of limited power like maybe mayor or governor. Just like in America where you have to be a Native born American to become President but you can still become governor or senator if you are not. Just like Schwarzenegger did.

Tadashi wrote:To all Tau fans who believe you surpass us already and will one day replace us: feel free to invade. You might even double the size of your empire in less than a decade. But by then, you'd be overstretched, with your limited warp drives unable to reinforce quickly enough. Once Terra hears of your arrogance, the whole Ultima Segmentum will be mobilized against you. I'm sure you'll make the Guard and the Navy pay the butcher's bill, but once the Astartes and the Titan Legions arrive, we'll make you pay for everything with compound interest.

"We are the Imperium of Man. Prepare to die."

In the few hundred years the IoM takes to mobilize ANYTHING (let alone a whole segmentum-since when do segmentums mobilize?) You can bet that tau tech, at the rate it's advancing, would likely be unrecognizable as belonging to tau. Will They have inertia-less drives by then? Will mantas become a dime a dozen? Will ALL troops have battlesuits?

The answer to most of those questions is probably no, but you get the point. Any other faction will be the exact same in a few hundreds years; the tau won't be.

An interesting thought: It is accepted that the tau are the youngest race, yes? If the Perdus rift anomaly was as time-warpingly powerful as it seems to be, then they could, theoretically, be the oldest race too o.0

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:To all Tau fans who believe you surpass us already and will one day replace us: feel free to invade. You might even double the size of your empire in less than a decade. But by then, you'd be overstretched, with your limited warp drives unable to reinforce quickly enough. Once Terra hears of your arrogance, the whole Ultima Segmentum will be mobilized against you. I'm sure you'll make the Guard and the Navy pay the butcher's bill, but once the Astartes and the Titan Legions arrive, we'll make you pay for everything with compound interest.

"We are the Imperium of Man. Prepare to die."

In the few hundred years the IoM takes to mobilize ANYTHING (let alone a whole segmentum-since when do segmentums mobilize?) You can bet that tau tech, at the rate it's advancing, would likely be unrecognizable as belonging to tau. Will They have inertia-less drives by then? Will mantas become a dime a dozen? Will ALL troops have battlesuits?

The answer to most of those questions is probably no, but you get the point. Any other faction will be the exact same in a few hundreds years; the tau won't be.

An interesting thought: It is accepted that the tau are the youngest race, yes? If the Perdus rift anomaly was as time-warpingly powerful as it seems to be, then they could, theoretically, be the oldest race too o.0

In a few hundred years the Imperium as we know it and the Tau are gone.

One: The Emperor is reborn, the Imperium is reforged, and all enemies of Man are purged from the galaxy as we claim our rightful place in the stars.
Two: The Emperor dies, Mankind falls, Chaos consumes the galaxy.

Either way, we win.

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Again: Ethereals are a subspecies of Tau.

This makes a difference how?

Oh wait, no it doesn't.

Only a specific subspecies of Tau can rule the Tau empire. Just like only a specific subspecies of humanity could rule Apartheid South Africa. They subjugate all non-Tau Ethereals, forcing them to be submissive to the Tau Ethereal caste which only allows the Ethereal subspecies of the Tau in.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.(emphasis by me)

And I give a gak... how?

Oh wait, no I don't. The author's intent is irrelevant in comparison with the end result of the work.

If they wanted to incorporate other races without subjugating them, they'd treat them as equals. They don't.

@the first part of your quote, it isn't like humanity, because there aren't any surviving subspecies of humanity. It is more like if the Neanderthals had survived, and were denied the right to run for mayor/president or whatever it is they were trying for.

@The second part, I have a quote for you!

codex tau empire wrote: It is a great compliment that the fire caste regards the Vespid Stingwings as skillful and reliable allies...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:To all Tau fans who believe you surpass us already and will one day replace us: feel free to invade. You might even double the size of your empire in less than a decade. But by then, you'd be overstretched, with your limited warp drives unable to reinforce quickly enough. Once Terra hears of your arrogance, the whole Ultima Segmentum will be mobilized against you. I'm sure you'll make the Guard and the Navy pay the butcher's bill, but once the Astartes and the Titan Legions arrive, we'll make you pay for everything with compound interest.

"We are the Imperium of Man. Prepare to die."

In the few hundred years the IoM takes to mobilize ANYTHING (let alone a whole segmentum-since when do segmentums mobilize?) You can bet that tau tech, at the rate it's advancing, would likely be unrecognizable as belonging to tau. Will They have inertia-less drives by then? Will mantas become a dime a dozen? Will ALL troops have battlesuits?

The answer to most of those questions is probably no, but you get the point. Any other faction will be the exact same in a few hundreds years; the tau won't be.

An interesting thought: It is accepted that the tau are the youngest race, yes? If the Perdus rift anomaly was as time-warpingly powerful as it seems to be, then they could, theoretically, be the oldest race too o.0

In a few hundred years the Imperium as we know it and the Tau are gone.

One: The Emperor is reborn, the Imperium is reforged, and all enemies of Man are purged from the galaxy as we claim our rightful place in the stars.
Two: The Emperor dies, Mankind falls, Chaos consumes the galaxy.

Either way, we win.

Not so much, no. For all we know, the Emperor could live on the throne forever, or he could live until so far in the future it doesn't matter, and also, almost every faction has a kind of potential apotheosis like that. The khan, Russ and Vulkan might all just come back. Ynnead might be born and kill everything chaos and then kill every other faction. Orks might unite. The fourteenth black crusade might curb stomp cadia and conquer the IoM. Slaanesh might come into it's own and become a force as powerful as the other chaos gods. Necrons might ALL awaken. The main tyranid fleet might reach the IoM. The tau might...survive a really long time, and then have bigger guns?

Either way, don't consider your faction's things to be imminent, while ignoring those of others.

Enigma Crisis wrote:

I'll say this again, the Tau Empire is similar to the Roman Empire in their conquests of Europe, Either you join us or die. You had to earn your Roman citizenship by serving in the Roman Army. The Tau however gave citizenship when you joined automatically.

The Tau Empire is like the British Empire of old. If you weren't born in the ruling family you could never become King or Queen of England. The British populace eventually grew tired of it and rebel against the King and made it more of a democracy. The Tau species, however, is just happy with the Ethereal's ruling them except Farsight.

All the Auxillary of the Tau Empire will never be able to rule the Tau Empire but they can hold positions of limited power like maybe mayor or governor. Just like in America where you have to be a Native born American to become President but you can still become governor or senator if you are not. Just like Schwarzenegger did.

The Romans never used such join us or die nonsense. They just conquered.
Plus, rulers of the Roman empire weren't always romans....
Especially parts of the auxilaria became one of the major powers at the end.

Seems the Romans aren't a good idea if you try to make a point in a Tau thread.

@im2randomghgh:

I mean, the assumptions made of the future in 40k are pretty off. The background is tied to the game and thus the upcoming new focus ...
CHAOS .... will hit them hard.

1hadhq wrote:

Enigma Crisis wrote:

I'll say this again, the Tau Empire is similar to the Roman Empire in their conquests of Europe, Either you join us or die. You had to earn your Roman citizenship by serving in the Roman Army. The Tau however gave citizenship when you joined automatically.

The Tau Empire is like the British Empire of old. If you weren't born in the ruling family you could never become King or Queen of England. The British populace eventually grew tired of it and rebel against the King and made it more of a democracy. The Tau species, however, is just happy with the Ethereal's ruling them except Farsight.

All the Auxillary of the Tau Empire will never be able to rule the Tau Empire but they can hold positions of limited power like maybe mayor or governor. Just like in America where you have to be a Native born American to become President but you can still become governor or senator if you are not. Just like Schwarzenegger did.

The Romans never used such join us or die nonsense. They just conquered.
Plus, rulers of the Roman empire weren't always romans....
Especially parts of the auxilaria became one of the major powers at the end.

Seems the Romans aren't a good idea if you try to make a point in a Tau thread.

@im2randomghgh:

I mean, the assumptions made of the future in 40k are pretty off. The background is tied to the game and thus the upcoming new focus ...
CHAOS .... will hit them hard.

And then tau will get their update GW better get Chaos and Eldar done quickly.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Enigma Crisis wrote:

I'll say this again, the Tau Empire is similar to the Roman Empire in their conquests of Europe, Either you join us or die. You had to earn your Roman citizenship by serving in the Roman Army. The Tau however gave citizenship when you joined automatically.

The Tau Empire is like the British Empire of old. If you weren't born in the ruling family you could never become King or Queen of England. The British populace eventually grew tired of it and rebel against the King and made it more of a democracy. The Tau species, however, is just happy with the Ethereal's ruling them except Farsight.

All the Auxillary of the Tau Empire will never be able to rule the Tau Empire but they can hold positions of limited power like maybe mayor or governor. Just like in America where you have to be a Native born American to become President but you can still become governor or senator if you are not. Just like Schwarzenegger did.

The Romans never used such join us or die nonsense. They just conquered.
Plus, rulers of the Roman empire weren't always romans....
Especially parts of the auxilaria became one of the major powers at the end.

Seems the Romans aren't a good idea if you try to make a point in a Tau thread.

@im2randomghgh:

I mean, the assumptions made of the future in 40k are pretty off. The background is tied to the game and thus the upcoming new focus ...
CHAOS .... will hit them hard.

And then tau will get their update GW better get Chaos and Eldar done quickly.

Hurry up with the new Imperial Guard and Space Marine Codexes first, then Chaos, then Eldar. Leave the Tau for last.

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

Enigma Crisis wrote:

I'll say this again, the Tau Empire is similar to the Roman Empire in their conquests of Europe, Either you join us or die. You had to earn your Roman citizenship by serving in the Roman Army. The Tau however gave citizenship when you joined automatically.

The Tau Empire is like the British Empire of old. If you weren't born in the ruling family you could never become King or Queen of England. The British populace eventually grew tired of it and rebel against the King and made it more of a democracy. The Tau species, however, is just happy with the Ethereal's ruling them except Farsight.

All the Auxillary of the Tau Empire will never be able to rule the Tau Empire but they can hold positions of limited power like maybe mayor or governor. Just like in America where you have to be a Native born American to become President but you can still become governor or senator if you are not. Just like Schwarzenegger did.

The Romans never used such join us or die nonsense. They just conquered.
Plus, rulers of the Roman empire weren't always romans....
Especially parts of the auxilaria became one of the major powers at the end.

Seems the Romans aren't a good idea if you try to make a point in a Tau thread.

@im2randomghgh:

I mean, the assumptions made of the future in 40k are pretty off. The background is tied to the game and thus the upcoming new focus ...
CHAOS .... will hit them hard.

And then tau will get their update GW better get Chaos and Eldar done quickly.

Hurry up with the new Imperial Guard and Space Marine Codices first, then Chaos, then Eldar. Leave the Tau for last.

Yes, they are going to make 7 space marine updates, the eldar update, the chaos update and the Imperial Guard update before tau. /sarcasm.

You do realize tau are likely going to be 5ed made for 6ed right? So they'd have to make a second 5ed codex for all those armies for them to be before tau right? Right. How can you actually be itching for new codices for races who's codices are still current?

Also, I fixed your spelling of the word "codices". "Codexes" isn't a word.

Perhaps, just perhaps, Codex: Blood Ravens at last...

And your one hell of a tech heretic, you know that? Why are you piloting a god-machine when you're a Tau? Or should I ring my Terminator brothers and have them reclaim the Titan?

Tadashi wrote:Perhaps, just perhaps, Codex: Blood Ravens at last...

Oh GOD no. There is absolutely ZERO reason for an abomination like that ever to be created. For one thing they are codex compliant, for another there are so many marine codices already they need to be condensed or simply purged...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Perhaps, just perhaps, Codex: Blood Ravens at last...

Oh GOD no. There is absolutely ZERO reason for an abomination like that ever to be created. For one thing they are codex compliant, for another there are so many marine codices already they need to be condensed or simply purged...

Perhaps not. But I wish they'd bring in Angelos as a special character, or at least allow for more varied Chapter options that allow the Blood Ravens to field more Librarians or even Librarian-Dreadnoughts.

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Perhaps, just perhaps, Codex: Blood Ravens at last...

Oh GOD no. There is absolutely ZERO reason for an abomination like that ever to be created. For one thing they are codex compliant, for another there are so many marine codices already they need to be condensed or simply purged...

Perhaps not. But I wish they'd bring in Angelos as a special character, or at least allow for more varied Chapter options that allow the Blood Ravens to field more Librarians or even Librarian-Dreadnoughts.

And the two librarians for a half company as it is now on the TT isn't enough? Assume the BR have enough to field this, that would mean 36 Librarians in their chapter, which is probably more than they actually have.

Angelos as a Special character is fair enough, but at the same time think there are a lot of other chapters that are large and well known without SC, like Iron Hands.

Also, something I noticed, the IF+successors seem to have a lot of special stuff. Lysander, Cantor and an entire other codex for BT. only Ultrasmurfs have more

@ im2randomghgh

The Emperor will most certainly not live forever. If memory serves, his golden Lay-z-boy is falling apart right now. A couple editions ago, he was an old man on a life support system. Now he's a skeleton on a life support system, he is dying and one of the two possibilities that tadashi described will most likely happen.

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Perhaps, just perhaps, Codex: Blood Ravens at last...

Oh GOD no. There is absolutely ZERO reason for an abomination like that ever to be created. For one thing they are codex compliant, for another there are so many marine codices already they need to be condensed or simply purged...

Perhaps not. But I wish they'd bring in Angelos as a special character, or at least allow for more varied Chapter options that allow the Blood Ravens to field more Librarians or even Librarian-Dreadnoughts.

Space Marine Captain/ Chaptermaster + thunderhammer -> You have Captain / Chaptermaster Angelos \o/
Space Marine Captain + lightning claw -> Diomedes
Chaos Spacemarine Havok with heavy bolter -> Avitus

If you want Librarians then take the three Librarian HQ choices you are allowed to have. Seriously, besides a somewhat higher amount of Librarians within the chapter ( a trait which is shared with the Silverskulls and the Howling Gryphons ) the Bloodravens are a codex adherent chapter and therefore, with the exception of Librarian dreads ( whcih they might not even have ) well represented by the current vanilla sm codex.
If every small doctrinal difference would require a new codex then we would have about a billion guard books, an equaly large amount of ork books, about a dozen+ tau books, hundreds if not thousands of Chaos spacemarine books as well as an equal amount of imperial marine books.

Its pretty easy to see that Tau are speciest. They have no leaders that are not Tau. And it pro ably won't happen anytime soon.

So we are looking for a new fleet commander, this human we just indoctrinated led a fleet already and has won countless battles to victory.
Yeah but this Tau ship captain escorted me to that planet to do the indoctrination...... yep he gets the job. Human can be a squad leader, of humans of course.

My personal take on this cross species dynamic, is new racial additions will work/earn their way into postions of athourity based on ability, and loyalty, so maybe down the line in a few generations there may well be a gue'vesa army commander, or a vespid, or Kroot, or demiurg or whatnot, commanding forces in the field and advancing the Greater Good , and leading combined racial forces.

Its to wasteful to the Tau not to take adavantage of ability, it will just be a trust that is built and earned, and yes the Tau will be the first amoung equals as has been stated many times in offical fluff, just to this point no non Tau has been given this accolade, other than Anghor prok, it will likely also mean a non-tau will have to work quite a bit harder to earn this position as well.

It would make for some nice fluff posibilities and cool special characters as well, hopefully not a opportunity that GW passes up.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW have a look at my avatar and you see a general of the Tau Empire army.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: I've never heard of non-Tau commanding Tau, only the other way round (and man do the Kroot seem to take the most losses).

xXSir MontyXx wrote:They have no leaders that are not Tau. And it pro ably won't happen anytime soon.

Again, we don't know much about non-Tau in the Tau empire. One of the few things we know is that a Kroot named Anghkor Prok has been a general leading a Tau army.

Kroothawk wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:BTW have a look at my avatar and you see a general of the Tau Empire army.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: I've never heard of non-Tau commanding Tau, only the other way round (and man do the Kroot seem to take the most losses).

xXSir MontyXx wrote:They have no leaders that are not Tau. And it pro ably won't happen anytime soon.

Again, we don't know much about non-Tau in the Tau empire. One of the few things we know is that a Kroot named Anghkor Prok has been a general leading a Tau army.

About the kroot taking more losses, going into battle armourless and engaging in CC will do that, SomeRandomEvilGuy.

Even so, Tau still get top spots. They're only free at first glance, otherwise, they're just as discriminatory as everyone else in 40k is.

I don't think you can say exactly that. Tau are at least one octave nicer then everyone else and that's with there darker fluff. Some of there early stuff is crazy nice. Almost magical in how they work.

nomotog wrote:I don't think you can say exactly that. Tau are at least one octave nicer then everyone else and that's with there darker fluff. Some of there early stuff is crazy nice. Almost magical in how they work.

Then why is it that the Castes are forbidden from mating with one another? True, it's too keep them specialized, but it also ensures that only the Ethereals control the government. And while the Kroot are tolerated, Tau still consider them savages. Vespid language helmets reek of subliminal messaging and mental control. Is it just coincidence, or are the gue'vesa positioned deliberately in the Imperium's potential invasion lines? Face it, they may be 'equal', but in the Empire, Tau come first, and then the Ethereals are above even the Tau. I don't see any difference with the Eldar's and Mankind's belief in superiority and manifest destiny.

Tadashi wrote:They're only free at first glance, otherwise, they're just as discriminatory as everyone else in 40k is.

Hmm... do I believe the designers of this race or you? Sorry, i rather believe that the designers know how they designed the race.

And no, it is not by chance that former members of the Imperium of Man are close to the Imperium of Man.

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't think you can say exactly that. Tau are at least one octave nicer then everyone else and that's with there darker fluff. Some of there early stuff is crazy nice. Almost magical in how they work.

Then why is it that the Castes are forbidden from mating with one another? True, it's too keep them specialized, but it also ensures that only the Ethereals control the government. And while the Kroot are tolerated, Tau still consider them savages. Vespid language helmets reek of subliminal messaging and mental control. Is it just coincidence, or are the gue'vesa positioned deliberately in the Imperium's potential invasion lines? Face it, they may be 'equal', but in the Empire, Tau come first, and then the Ethereals are above even the Tau. I don't see any difference with the Eldar's and Mankind's belief in superiority and manifest destiny.

The fact that that topic even exists just shows how much nicer they are. Eldar have a we will kill as many as we want to save one of are own. They don't deal with the idea that humans could lead craft worlds. Humans aren't even allowed to live with them. The tau meanwhile risk there lives to save people they haven't even meet. Invite them to live with them and even help them It's really a world of difference between tau and everyone else.

Tadashi wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't think you can say exactly that. Tau are at least one octave nicer then everyone else and that's with there darker fluff. Some of there early stuff is crazy nice. Almost magical in how they work.

Then why is it that the Castes are forbidden from mating with one another? True, it's too keep them specialized, but it also ensures that only the Ethereals control the government. And while the Kroot are tolerated, Tau still consider them savages. Vespid language helmets reek of subliminal messaging and mental control. Is it just coincidence, or are the gue'vesa positioned deliberately in the Imperium's potential invasion lines? Face it, they may be 'equal', but in the Empire, Tau come first, and then the Ethereals are above even the Tau. I don't see any difference with the Eldar's and Mankind's belief in superiority and manifest destiny.

Would you mate with a Neanderthal? No?

Same with the tau. For one thing, if a firewarrior tried to mate with an air caste pilot, the pilot would break in two

im2randomghgh wrote:Would you mate with a Neanderthal?

Necrophilia is usually frowned upon, you know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They're only free at first glance, otherwise, they're just as discriminatory as everyone else in 40k is.

Hmm... do I believe the designers of this race or you? Sorry, i rather believe that the designers know how they designed the race.

If you want to pay attention to how they designed the race, you should pay attention to how they designed the race.

You know, as racist apartheid bastards.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Would you mate with a Neanderthal?

Necrophilia is usually frowned upon, you know.

I see what you did there.

If you want to pay attention to how they designed the race, you should pay attention to how they designed the race.

You know, as racist apartheid bastards

Really...no. You seem to not realize that vespid and kroot aren't slaves. Nor are demiurg, or nicassar, or Tarellian Dog-soldiers. Kroot are mercenaries, who help the Empire out of gratitude for saving their homeworld from orks. Nicassar are a protectorate of the Empire, as are the Tarellian dog soldiers. The demiurg are not part of the Empire, they are allies and trading partners. The Nicassar help the tau by scouting, in return for the tau using their "warp-drives" (I added quotation marks, no need to go into "Is tau warp travel ACTUALLY warp travel?") to satisfy their innate wanderlust (they like to travel as much as kender do).

They are not treated as slaves. They have their own planets within the tau Empire. They cannot lead the tau Empire. Why would they be able? That makes no sense.

im2randomghgh wrote:Really...no. You seem to not realize that vespid and kroot aren't slaves.

They are subordinate to the Tau with no chance of raising themselves to a better station in life. The system is designed as such that the Tau will always rule over everyone else. Even amongst the Tau, the system is racially biased towards the Ethereal. It is both racist and speciesist, and your attempts to tap-dance around this fact are amusing me.

And before you whine "tau-bashing", I don't hate the Tau, I just hate the wankery the Tau are neat, but they have the worst fans. Like starcraft in a sense, amusingly enough (except Tau are infinitely cooler than Starcraft ever was).

Everything is grimdark

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Really...no. You seem to not realize that vespid and kroot aren't slaves.

They are subordinate to the Tau with no chance of raising themselves to a better station in life. The system is designed as such that the Tau will always rule over everyone else. Even amongst the Tau, the system is racially biased towards the Ethereal. It is both racist and speciesist, and your attempts to tap-dance around this fact are amusing me.

And before you whine "tau-bashing", I don't hate the Tau, I just hate the wankery the Tau are neat, but they have the worst fans. Like starcraft in a sense, amusingly enough (except Tau are infinitely cooler than Starcraft ever was).

Did you read the rest of my post? The part where the others don't actually belong to the tau, they support them? That's like saying that since The U.S. and Britain fought together in WW2, that the U.S. is a part of Britain. It isn't, These are allies to the empire, but they are by no means a part of it.

The tau do not rule the other races. In hunter cadres they command them, true enough, but the rest aren't tau. The Ethereals don't rule them. The kroot are ruled by shapers and master shapers. The Vespid are ruled by strain-leaders and their female ruling caste. The Nicassar travel in families, completely decentralized. Little is known of the demiurg, but it seems likely they are larger than the entire Tau Empire.

im2randomghgh wrote:The part where the others don't actually belong to the tau

Oh that. I ignored that because it's wrong.

The Tau state join or die.

Joey wrote:Everything is grimdark

Best answer in this thread.

Melissia wrote:If you want to pay attention to how they designed the race, you should pay attention to how they designed the race.
You know, as racist apartheid bastards.

Taking into account, that you dream of a society where people may mate with other species and you don't give a damn about natural laws, official GW background and what other people actually posted, your posts start to make sense

im2randomghgh wrote:
The tau do not rule the other races. In hunter cadres they command them, true enough, but the rest aren't tau. The Ethereals don't rule them. The kroot are ruled by shapers and master shapers. The Vespid are ruled by strain-leaders and their female ruling caste. The Nicassar travel in families, completely decentralized. Little is known of the demiurg, but it seems likely they are larger than the entire Tau Empire.

They don't rule? The Ethereals don't rule? I suppose God-Ethereal Aun'va is the ruler, then? Just face it, the Tau are at the top of the Empire, 'equality' not withstanding, and the Ethereals are still on top, with no else allowed to rise above what the Ethereals decide is your position in life. Even the Imperium is meritocratic by comparison.

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The tau do not rule the other races. In hunter cadres they command them, true enough, but the rest aren't tau. The Ethereals don't rule them. The kroot are ruled by shapers and master shapers. The Vespid are ruled by strain-leaders and their female ruling caste. The Nicassar travel in families, completely decentralized. Little is known of the demiurg, but it seems likely they are larger than the entire Tau Empire.

They don't rule? The Ethereals don't rule? I suppose God-Ethereal Aun'va is the ruler, then? Just face it, the Tau are at the top of the Empire, 'equality' not withstanding, and the Ethereals are still on top, with no else allowed to rise above what the Ethereals decide is your position in life. Even the Imperium is meritocratic by comparison.

Most races outside of Tau themselves don't even believe in the Greater Good, the Ethereal caste is meaningless to these races. Tau are described by their codex as being "First among Equals," they consider themselves equal to the races who join their empire, since they are the founders of the empire they have more control over it, having laid the groundwork themselves. The Imperium generally kills all xenos on sight, I don't see how that is any more meritocratic than a society who allows different species to join a rising empire whilst allowing them to maintain their individual sovereignty.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The tau do not rule the other races. In hunter cadres they command them, true enough, but the rest aren't tau. The Ethereals don't rule them. The kroot are ruled by shapers and master shapers. The Vespid are ruled by strain-leaders and their female ruling caste. The Nicassar travel in families, completely decentralized. Little is known of the demiurg, but it seems likely they are larger than the entire Tau Empire.

They don't rule? The Ethereals don't rule? I suppose God-Ethereal Aun'va is the ruler, then? Just face it, the Tau are at the top of the Empire, 'equality' not withstanding, and the Ethereals are still on top, with no else allowed to rise above what the Ethereals decide is your position in life. Even the Imperium is meritocratic by comparison.

Most races outside of Tau themselves don't even believe in the Greater Good, the Ethereal caste is meaningless to these races. Tau are described by their codex as being "First among Equals," they consider themselves equal to the races who join their empire, since they are the founders of the empire they have more control over it, having laid the groundwork themselves. The Imperium generally kills all xenos on sight, I don't see how that is any more meritocratic than a society who allows different species to join a rising empire whilst allowing them to maintain their individual sovereignty.

Simply because skilled individuals or those who proved themselves can become more and even rise to become than they were in the Imperium that's why. That's what promotion is. To it's own people, the Imperium is meritocratic, since even a lowly bureaucrat can rise to become Master of the Administratum if he's ambitious and clever enough. Same with the Ecclesiarchy. The Mechanicus is similar enough, but Tech Priests have to smart enough too. The Imperial Military is the most meritocratic of the Imperial organizations. If you can prove yourself, you can become someone in the Imperium, whereas in the Tau Empire, no matter how excellent an administrator a Water Caste member cannot rise to a ruling position in the Tau Empire. Why? Because only the Ethereals can rule.

Kroothawk wrote:Taking into account, that you dream of a society where people may mate with other species

Stop lying about what I believe and actually bother to read for once in your life.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The part where the others don't actually belong to the tau

Oh that. I ignored that because it's wrong.

The Tau state join or die.

Yep.
Examples include The Killing Ground, part of the Ultramarines series, and I believe a similar situation occurs in the Ciaphas Cain books, though I don't remember which.
The Tau are just as ruthless as the Imperium, when they want to be, and when it suits their goals.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The part where the others don't actually belong to the tau

Oh that. I ignored that because it's wrong.

The Tau state join or die.

Yep.
Examples include The Killing Ground, part of the Ultramarines series, and I believe a similar situation occurs in the Ciaphas Cain books, though I don't remember which.
The Tau are just as ruthless as the Imperium, when they want to be, and when it suits their goals.

Isn't the Tau more like "join or join"? I mean, they won't launch a full-scale invasion after the first contact. They only go military when everything else has already failed.

AtoMaki wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The part where the others don't actually belong to the tau

Oh that. I ignored that because it's wrong.

The Tau state join or die.

Yep.
Examples include The Killing Ground, part of the Ultramarines series, and I believe a similar situation occurs in the Ciaphas Cain books, though I don't remember which.
The Tau are just as ruthless as the Imperium, when they want to be, and when it suits their goals.

Isn't the Tau more like "join or join"? I mean, they won't launch a full-scale invasion after the first contact. They only go military when everything else has already failed.

Well, really, that's more or less the same thing.
"Join or be forced to join," perhaps, is a better way of putting it.
Besides, the point is that the Tau are just as Imperialistic as the IoM, and have no qualms about forcing people into their empire if they want.

Unless they're in one of their spheres of expansion, in which case they will gladly invade on the slightest of pretense.

Such as saying "no, stay off our planet."

Until Sicarius came and kicked their asses in Zeist.

Existence is pointless anyway. To be alive is to be a fixed, finite point of space with an awareness of your own mentality.
All living creatures are as doomed as the others. So yeah. Or no. Whatever.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The part where the others don't actually belong to the tau

Oh that. I ignored that because it's wrong. The Tau state join or die.

Yep.
Examples include The Killing Ground, part of the Ultramarines series, and I believe a similar situation occurs in the Ciaphas Cain books, though I don't remember which.
The Tau are just as ruthless as the Imperium, when they want to be, and when it suits their goals.

Well, even for the Imperial Guard left behind after the Damocles Crusade it was "join or we'll take you to a prisoner camp", which is a pretty generous offer, or at least certainly not what one would describe as ruthless. And this was actual GW studio fluff, not some BL author's interpretation.

Also, every time you refer one of them Cain novels in a fluff discussion, Abbadon kills a kitten.

Lynata wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:The part where the others don't actually belong to the tau

Oh that. I ignored that because it's wrong.

The Tau state join or die.

Yep.
Examples include The Killing Ground, part of the Ultramarines series, and I believe a similar situation occurs in the Ciaphas Cain books, though I don't remember which.
The Tau are just as ruthless as the Imperium, when they want to be, and when it suits their goals.

Well, even for the Imperial Guard left behind after the Damocles Crusade it was "join or we'll take you to a prisoner camp", which is a pretty generous offer, or at least certainly not what one would describe as ruthless. And this was actual GW studio fluff, not some BL author's interpretation.

Also, every time you use one of them Cain novels in a discussion, Abbadon kills a kitten.

Prisoner camp doesn't sound all that kind.
I mean, just look at some of the POW camps in our wars.

ALSO: That's about all Abbadon's capable of doing these days.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Prisoner camp doesn't sound all that kind.
I mean, just look at some of the POW camps in our wars.

Well, it's arguably better than dying.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:ALSO: That's about all Abbadon's capable of doing these days.

Cut him some slack, he's got no arms.

Lynata wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Prisoner camp doesn't sound all that kind.
I mean, just look at some of the POW camps in our wars.

Well, it's arguably better than dying.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:ALSO: That's about all Abbadon's capable of doing these days.

Cut him some slack, he's got no arms.

Aw, fine, I suppose it's not good form to make fun of the 'armless.

Lynata wrote:Also, every time you refer one of them Cain novels in a fluff discussion, Abbadon kills a kitten.

Dude, every time you take a BREATH, Abbadon kills a kitten.

He hates kittens. He's like the anti-Kharn.

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:Also, every time you refer one of them Cain novels in a fluff discussion, Abbadon kills a kitten.

Dude, every time you take a BREATH, Abbadon kills a kitten.

He hates kittens. He's like the anti-Kharn.

It's a well-known fact that Kharn of the World Eaters will never kill a kitten under any circumstances. It's partially to do with residual childhood memories and also the fact that
Kharn finds that kittens are the only creatures that truly understand him.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Lynata wrote:Also, every time you refer one of them Cain novels in a fluff discussion, Abbadon kills a kitten.

Dude, every time you take a BREATH, Abbadon kills a kitten.

He hates kittens. He's like the anti-Kharn.

It's a well-known fact that Kharn of the World Eaters will never kill a kitten under any circumstances. It's partially to do with residual childhood memories and also the fact that
Kharn finds that kittens are the only creatures that truly understand him.

Because, if you think about it, cats are the perfect pet for the proper chaoslord. They treat you like a slave, they can have a realy mean streak and most of all, unlike the filthy salvia dispensers we call dogs, they don't give a damn if you life or die. Gods of the Aether, i love cats

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Examples include The Killing Ground, part of the Ultramarines series, and I believe a similar situation occurs in the Ciaphas Cain books, though I don't remember which.
The Tau are just as ruthless as the Imperium, when they want to be, and when it suits their goals.

In the first Ciaphas Cain novel, the Tau are present on an Imperial planet where the population has a tau fan-cult. When the Tau hear about a suspicious evil cult, they leave the planet without a fight. Now that is an example of evil oppression

The Ultramarine novel featuring Tau is "Courage and Honour". Here a tau army of dropships and antigrav tanks fights over a bridge to cross a river. Only the Andy Hoare novel "Savage Scars" is more stupid in portraying Tau (they are characterised there in two ways: Those that splatter by a bolter round or bomb and those that are hacked to death in close combat). Oh, and the main character is motivated by revenge for his battle brother, who died while trying a genocide of Tau on their homeplanet.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:Prisoner camp doesn't sound all that kind.
I mean, just look at some of the POW camps in our wars.

Tau officer: "We have won the fight. Now will you join us or go on killing us?"
Human officer:" We would like to go on killing you."
Tau officer: "Then we have to disarm you and keep you in a prisoner camp."
Human officer: "How unkind of you. Please, why don't you let us keep on killing you?"