In your opinion what codex has the best troops and why? I like the necrons troops a lot. Especially the immortals.

To hear it told, Codex Space Wolves have the best Troop Choice (Grey Hunters) because of how ridiculously effective and efficient that they are for their points cost.

I'd say IG veterans.
3 special weapons at BS 4 and a transport for dirt cheap.

Hello, ORK BOYZ.

Akroma06 wrote:I'd say IG veterans.
3 special weapons at BS 4 and a transport for dirt cheap.

agreed

ravenousork25 wrote:Hello, ORK BOYZ.

This, Imperial Guard and Space Wolves. While Purifiers and Paladins are good, they're not as spammable.

Yeah don't forget da orks.

I'll offer Dire Avengers

Cost is debatable but purely from troop choices I like CSM.

Effective plain jane CSM - upto 20 - higher morale and +1 attack vs standard marines. Interesting options of +1 T, +1 A, +1 I, 5++ saves or rerollable morale.

Very buff units - at a cost- but still troops so they can control objectives. Khorne Berzerkers and/or Plague Marines.

Castiel wrote:I'll offer Dire Avengers

Really? I never got great use out of them. From Eldar, I'd say gobs of storm guardians w/ a warlock with that +1WS/I ability.

Codex-wise, definitely IG. They get veterans, power blobs, and PCS.

I think the best troop unit in the game is a unit of Grey Hunters. They have access to a meltagun, mark of the wulfen, a banner, a power weapon/power fist, and they can be lead by a wolf guard.

Then I think you have another tier of good options just below those two: Blood Angel Assault squads, DE Warriors, Plague Marines, etc.

Ork Boyz are cool...but too easy to kill. I've never had a problem taking out large mobs other than playing as Necrons with the old codex.

Castiel wrote:I'll offer Dire Avengers

Dire Avengers are, sadly, overcosted by a point or two (as is almost everything in Eldar).

The only real contenders are Grey Hunters, Ork Boyz, and IG Veterans. My money is on Grey Hunters, but the others are pretty close.

I'm a SM player but I have to say Ork boys. A unit of 30 for about the same cost as a BA assault squad?

By codex itself, I see it as;
Vanilla Marines: Tac Squads - free upgrades, cheap combi-weapon slot, combat squads, cheap transport options.
DA's: Deathwing Termies - can mix tactical + assault options, but you need to take Belial to get them.
Templars: ummm... No actual choice here so they don't count!
BA's: Assault Squads - cheap, can take meltaguns + inferno pistol per squad, cheap 'Fast' transport options at a discount!!!
SW's: Grey Hunters - cheap total package that combines the best of all roles into one, cheap transport options.
GK's: Strike Squads (yes really!) - cheap for knights, warp quake is broken, especially when rules lawyers get involved...
DE: Don't know 'em too well honestly, I really think both choices are equally viable?!
Eldar: Jetbikes. cheap, MEQ stats and can easily size/contest objectives within 1 turn.
Necrons: Immortals seem on paper the better choice, but I feel Warriors are just as good for gaining access to Ghost Arks which can act as mobile platforms for the crypteks w/S8 guns?!
Tyranids: 'Stealers I guess?! Don't know much about bugs to be honest.
Tau: Fire Warriors!!! Well, you are forced to include them still, right?!
Chaos Marines: Plauge Marines. Not exactly cheap, but T5/3+/FnP, can min/max 2x special weapons, cheap transports, defensive grenades for laughs.
Daemons: Plaguebearers for objective holding, Horrors for bolt-spamming. Both are pretty mandetory nowadays!

There are some really good ones that share the spotlight. You could fill up your entire troop selection with these and be happy.
1) Grey Hunters
2) IG Vets
3) Ork boyz

Honestly... Tyranids. Everything rocks, except for Ripper Swarms. Grey Hunters are good as well, but I see the question as "which army has the best Troops Choices not just individual units". In which case, SoB are probably the bottom rung.

Imperial Guard, Infantry Platoons and Veteran Squads.

Platoons for sheer amount of models per foc, its quite amusing when my oppounet sees me place 60+ models down as my dow deployment.

Vets for the versitility and sheer killy power. Plus their dirt cheap.

What about sanguinary guard when taken with Dante, or is that pushing the rules too much?

I still think the Ork Codex has among the best troops.

There's Ork Boyz, who are just plain awesome. There's Grots, for when you need to hold objectives for cheap. There's Warbikers, if you need to be swift and then there's the various versions of Nobz, for when stuff needs to die.

I would go with IG. I have only used IG and SM myself, and, IG has such a variety of troop choices. You have the infantry platoon/squad (with alot of different choices in there), the Veterans, and the Penal legion squad. Cost is good for each unit too. Just started orks, and well, bo yz are just so numerous that it is fun.

Since it is which CODEX I will say Eldar.

Jetbikes for super fast scoring units.

Pathfinders for a 2+ cover save objective holders.

Guardians for cheap and plentiful bodies.

Dire Avengers for torrents of fire, and combat tar-pits

Wraithguard for a super durable fearless scoring unit.

I have to claim the BT crusader squad. 15 marines with BP+CCW's leaping out of a LRC into combat does nasty things to a lot of troops.

close range = 26-28 bolter rounds with an melta gun as well + Assault cannon = approx. 4.66 wounds (after saves) shooting against MEQ. Assault afterwards = 6.375 wounds

recieving 1.05-1.16 wounds in return fom a tactical squad equivalent

I'm kind of surprised at IG vets being so praised. They have serious liabilities to them, and aren't even the best troops choice in their codex, much less the game.

I'd say the best three troops choices (in no particular order), are...

- grey knight squads. Either regular knights or terminators. The amount of force concentration you can slather on these guys is intense. You can spend points on them to the point where they can take down deathstar units, while still being small enough to fit in a land raider or a rhino.

- imperial guard infantry platoons. You're talking about a unit that can include up to 55 guys, up to 10 dudes with power weapons, up to 5 heavy weapons, and 5 special weapons (and plasma pistols if you like), all with stubborn and rerollable Ld9. There is nothing a blob can't beat if you put enough points into it. Even at lower points, say 185 points for a 2-melta, 21-man power blob, they cause a shocking range of units to just bounce off them.

- chaos space marine squads. There are lots of really good troops choices in the CSM codex, but I'm going to have to go with the basics. You can take a 20-man squad with 20 boltguns, AND 20 bolt pistols/CCS, along with the special and heavy weapons, and hidden power fist. This is pretty good on its own, but then you add to it the icons. If you want, you can take this monster squad and just pass out a 5++ save to everyone, or to make it a 20-man marine squad where everyone is T5, or make it so that they almost always strike first in close combat, or become THREE TIMES better than tac squads in assault after the charge. There is just so much you can do with them that you can easily make an entire CSM army with nothing but a compulsory HQ choice and a ton of regular CSM squads. The only reason I don't take them myself is because I love me my berzerkers so much.

There are other decent troops choices, like guard vets and ork boyz and up-kitted avengers, but they all have at least one key weakness that is easy to exploit if you know what you're doing. To me, the above three are what really shine.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Castiel wrote:I'll offer Dire Avengers

Really? I never got great use out of them. From Eldar, I'd say gobs of storm guardians w/ a warlock with that +1WS/I ability.

I find them great. They could do with being a couple of points lower, but they are worth their weight in gold IMHO. I had some beat a unit of DE Wyches the other day for only 4 casualties in reply.

Having said that though, completely forgot about jetbikes. They are amazing troops choices.

Fire Warriors

It's CSM.

They can be in mobs up to 20, they have 2 attacks base, can take 2 special weapons just like anyone else, their champ can take the standard power weapon and fist.

Whats more, they can be highly customized.

Want them all to have toughness 5? Done.
What about +1 more attack each? Sure.
What about +1 intitative? Easy.
Fancy them all having a 5+ invun? It's yours.
Re-roll all moral/leadership checks? All day long.

Whats more, they are the same price as grey hunters.

Hard to argue with Grey Hunters...a lot of special abilities and capabilities for 15 points each.

Grey Knight Strike Squads are a little pricey, but they too get an awful lot for their price.

IG platoons and vets are both solid.

I'm not a huge fan of orks, but I do think grots are very underrated. They are a cheap, effective way to hold your near objectives while freeing up points to buy more killy-stuff to move forward.

Kroot are pretty impressive, too, for the price.

Chaos marines are tough for me to judge. I find the chaos codex so weak, overall, that I have a tough time viewing regular CSM objectively. In general, though, they seem to fall short of Grey Hunters...the lack of ATSKNF is huge.

I would say IG or Ork Boyz

juraigamer wrote:It's CSM.

They can be in mobs up to 20, they have 2 attacks base, can take 2 special weapons just like anyone else, their champ can take the standard power weapon and fist.

Whats more, they can be highly customized.

Want them all to have toughness 5? Done.
What about +1 more attack each? Sure.
What about +1 intitative? Easy.
Fancy them all having a 5+ invun? It's yours.
Re-roll all moral/leadership checks? All day long.

Whats more, they are the same price as grey hunters.

They have 1 attack base, not 2. They have to pay more for the 1st special weapon upgrade, and Blood Claws get the 2nd special weapon upgrade for free. They also lack ATSKNF (a HUGE bonus), Combat Squads, and Counter Attack.

The Icons (although expensive) are a big boost. But, they don't close the gap, IMO.

ironicsilence wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:I'd say IG veterans.
3 special weapons at BS 4 and a transport for dirt cheap.

agreed

Agreed more-so.

Grakmar wrote:
They have 1 attack base, not 2.

Pistol and CCW on each CSM. 2 attacks base.

In context of a codex then either boyz or deathwing as they make their codices actually competitive.

As a unit either Telion or deathwing. Any army would love to have either of these in their lists.

i have to say chaos they have something for every role. Want to hold that objective ? Plauge marines with a 3+ save and FNP aswell as the abillity to take 3 special wepons (plasma pistol or combi bolter) want to hunt that annoying hq unit thousand sons with ap3 bolters will make light work of anything short of a 2 +save. want lots of dakka noise marines have assault 2 or heavy 3 bolters not to mention the str 8 ap3 blastmaster and the str 5 ap3 doom siren template every marines worst nightmare combine that with initiative 5 and you've got a unit that can outshoot most races troops choices save guard or tau and then assault straight after usually killing whatevers left before it can strike. Then there are zerkers wps 5 2 attacks base furious charge means 4 attacks at strength 5 on the charge. And even the basic marines are good bolt pistol close combat wepon and bolter for 15 points plus the option to take 2 special wepons and a icon makes them a rather potent force

Hmmm. I appreciate all the posts. Almost finished with a army, so ill be making a new one soon. After reading here its a toss up between csm and ig. I liked what you guys had to say about the others as well. I really like dakka posts sometimes. Can be very constructive and informative. Especially when it comes to stuff I'm unsure of. Love it, and thanks.

Easily Codex: Chaos. Plague Marines are one of the best units in the game, Berzerkers have lots and lots of bang for your buck and still score objectives to boot, and generic Chaos Marines are extremely adaptable.

Codex: Chaos suffers from having limited selections in certain other slots, but its Troops choices are absolutely top of the line.

Fetterkey wrote:Easily Codex: Chaos. Plague Marines are one of the best units in the game, Berzerkers have lots and lots of bang for your buck and still score objectives to boot, and generic Chaos Marines are extremely adaptable.

Codex: Chaos suffers from having limited selections in certain other slots, but its Troops choices are absolutely top of the line.

This guy gets it
But for troops choices chaos is the best the last game i played was against grey knights i had 4 5 man squads of noise marines a squad of plauge marines a squad of zerks obliterators a havoc squad and a vindicator he had 2 guys left at the end i stij had all my noise marines my plauge marines and oblits left

Tyranids with the best shock troop in the game,

Genestealers.

Pair them up with any flavor of warrior unit and you have both awesome snyergy, firepower and presence.
Warriors are one of the most durable (if not the most) Troop choice in the game with a whopping 3 wounds
and attacks plus strong melee options and decent shooty options!


Oh and either or are spamable!

I'd have to say ork boyz at six points a pop; not only are they a great themselves, the points you don't spend on them are spent on more orks.

IG Platoons:

That's one squad.

I'd have to say CSM, SW and da boyz/IG.

CSM's most solid section of the FOC is troops. 'Zerkers, plague marines, Noise marines and CSM are great- 1ksons are great depending on the situation. CSM are cheaper than SM tac squads, get 2x special, a whole bunch of buffs available from icons, cheap transports. Power armor, bolter/pistol and CCW, not to mention frag and krak grenades and LD10. This is a highly versatile squad, the only thing it lacks is long range capability, but it works the 18-0" band like a champ. Plague marines can be taken as tougher, smaller squads, still get 2x specials. 'zerkers are on of the best troops to throw at an enemy objective to sweep them off. Noise marines can make effective shooting or close range squad.

SW get GH- CSM's that don't get the icon buffs, but get better choices as far as equipment goes. They are LD8, but get ATSKNF, counter attack and acute senses. Also works the 18-0" band like a bunch of champs. Solid troop choice that is sturdy and can dish out pain. At 15ppm, they beat CSM's and vanilla marines at pound for pound cost effectiveness.

I mention IG and da boyz because whilst maybe not the best troop choice per say, When the rest of the codex is taken into account they work well. Vet's are cheap for BS4 shots, but soft bodied. Platoons can field huge amounts of guns/power weapons. Da boyz can mob up pretty much anything in the game. Maybe not as much of a jack-of-all-trades like CSM/GH, but they fulfill the troops role in their codices' very well, and are priced well too.

Purifiers can handle pretty much anything you throw at them IMO. Guess you gotta pay the crowey tax for them though.

GK has the best selection

SS
Termies
Palies
Purifiers
Henchmen

Have to say CSM, actually. Our main guys have so many options, plus cult troops everywhere AND lesser daemons if that's your style.

I'd go with either Grey Hunters or Izg Veterans. GH win on versatility per point, and Vets win on how much firepower they cn put out for their extremely low cost.

Grakmar wrote:

The only real contenders are Grey Hunters, Ork Boyz, and IG Veterans. My money is on Grey Hunters, but the others are pretty close.

yup, those are pretty much it.


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Experiment 626 wrote:-
DE: Don't know 'em too well honestly, I really think both choices are equally viable?!

DE have some of the best dedicated transports in the game, which make their troops seem better than they are. fast open topped skimmers for cheap with good weapons.

DE warriors got gimped, not worth taking.

DE Wyches are good, and by good I mean they can at least tarpit much more expensive squads and depending on the drugs/tokens potentially win but they die to shooting way too fast and have no good special weapons choices anymore. not even top 5 troop choice

Um, Berzerkers, Ork boys or strike squads? genestealers are a little squishy but theyre amazing in combat and pretty cheap.

Tyranid swarms! they...they...what do they do?!

Nothing beats Ork Boyz.

GKs have a solid selection and come in at #2, but Orks take the cake.

Tyranid Warriors- 3 w's, 3 A's, Fearless, messes with psykers, 4+ sv ( meh ), power weapons, rending, ID capability, lnitiative reducing wargear, furious charge, assault 3 shooting and they can deep strike. They are expensive but these are a strong contender for best reg. troop choice. If not best than maybe toughest or most dangerous- basically they could easily be elite choices.

Grey Hunters. Grey Hunters, Rune Priests, and Long Fangs are the Tri-Force to the success that is the Wolf Codex. I can't tell you how many threads I see on this forum that complain about how effective these are for the points!

Next would be Ork Boyz and CSM. CSM are only slightly weaker then hunters for the points (like a 0.9 compared to a 1.0) and Orks have great troops. IG are a decent 4th.

Anything from the eldar and tyranid codex...no....no lemon pledge

Garukadon wrote:Tyranid Warriors- 3 w's, 3 A's, Fearless, messes with psykers, 4+ sv ( meh ), power weapons, rending, ID capability, lnitiative reducing wargear, furious charge, assault 3 shooting and they can deep strike. They are expensive but these are a strong contender for best reg. troop choice. If not best than maybe toughest or most dangerous- basically they could easily be elite choices.

And they're horribly slow (sigh, losing the leap option sucked), can be instant deathed by S8 spam, and are overcosted. I'm sorry but with no eternal warrior or invuln save no one takes Warriors in competitive lists. Yes all those things you listed sound nice but those are options, and they're options that come at a price.

I do think some of the best troop choices do come from the Tyranid codex.

Genestealers for life
And hard to argue with a T6 6 wound model that can cast FNP and poop out more troops squatting on objectives.

Outside Nids, love them Boyz and Grey Hunters.

I nominate the Black Templars Lasplas squad, simply because it's hideously effective at camping on an objective.

Grey knights strike squad.

SM staline, storm bolter, FORCEWEAPON and psychic, for 5pts more than a GH... :(

Oppressor wrote:Grey knights strike squad.

SM staline, storm bolter, FORCEWEAPON and psychic, for 5pts more than a GH... :(

Who get killed off by ork boyz because they dont care about force weapons and make strike squd make over 100 saves. lol

I would say the codex with the "best" troop choice (if it hasn't already been said) Has to be the Chaos Space Marines. They are the only MEQ that gets various upgrades (marks ect) and they have 5 different troop choice to choose from ranging from I5, extra attacks, to Feel No Pain even. Every troop choice in the CSM codex can be taken into squads of 20 as well.

It may seem silly, but x20 CSM in a group will hold anything.

I know blood angels can get FNP easily also but as far as versatility/strong troops go. I personally think CSM takes the cake.


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x20 CSM+MoN have fun beating down that many Power armor T5 saves.

My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

Castiel wrote:I find them great. They could do with being a couple of points lower, but they are worth their weight in gold IMHO. I had some beat a unit of DE Wyches the other day for only 4 casualties in reply.

Having said that though, completely forgot about jetbikes. They are amazing troops choices.

That couple points lower is a huge deal at this point level. But for like 3pts more you can get GH who have +1T +1S +1Sv. That alone is worth 3 points. On top of that you get +1 attack due to combination, possibility of super-sargent, ATSKNF, counter-attack, acute senses and something very important: a wide array of special weapons. Be it meltaguns, wulfen, pfist, banner. AT weapons!
Their only advantage is default weapon and I. But they fold in CC anyway. Oh, and fleet, which lost a lot in 5th edition.
Avengers are not terrible against infantry but anything more and they can only run. No possibility to harm vehicles (in a vehicle-centred meta), not counting serpent of course, and their anti-horde is not the best either. What is also worth mentioning is that their transport is like 3x more expensive than GHs. Price decrease to IG and SM transports is one of the factors that makes them soooo good against older books. They can be mechanized by giving up way, way less points for effective transport. That means that DA are outnumbered by default OR you give up their only AT.
Of course don't give up on Eldar. No matter the point values or weapons or characteristics, they are still better than "filthy mon-keigh".

EDIT: All that and and I forgot to actually post on topic: GH of course.

you can field 120 Chaos Space Marines for 1800 points. I'm not sure if anyone does that often. But throw all boyz against that and I think the MEQ will win that fight.

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

180 boyz = roughly 1100 points though. As far as maximizing your "troop capability" the Chaos codex is ridiculous because of the squads of 20. It really is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We can't count the IG because they're "troop choice" are all fugged up thanks to the Platoon thing. Just field a gazillion conscripts and walk across the board.

Hahaha jk, IG are seriously good as well when it comes to just troops.

It seems the question is "Which codex has the best troop choices?" Not "Which troop choice is the best?" The answer to the second question is Grey Hunters, but SW are most assuredly not the answer to the first. I would say the best codex for troop choices is IG, because they have two of the very best, the Platoon and the Veteran Squad. I can't think of another codex that has two troops that are both better than those two.

BB

Beerbeard speaks the truth

"Which Codex has the best troop choices" should be the central question that needs answering.

IG vets and platoons fall into the top 3, but as far as troop selection goes CSM is still top 3 IMO as well.

Orks as good as they are kind of fall into the category of the Space Wolves. Yeah they're great point wise / efficiency wise but in the end you only have two troop choice with both Codex, which I think knocks them behind IG and CSM with this particular question.

Just my serious 2 cents.

Remember that Nobs can be troops too.

"Which Codex has the best troop choices" has two different meanings to different people. It could mean:

A) Which Codex has the best troop choices if you're forced to look at the bad choices as well as the good.
Or
B) Which Codex has the best troop choices, and feel free to ignore the choices that you'd ignore anyway and spam the one choice that's actually good, as you would in a real game.


To me, it means B. I'm never going to use Rangers in a list, so why would they make Eldar's troop choices worse than if they simply didn't exist?

Remember that Nobs can be troops too.

I guess HQ in mind the Space Puppies get Wolf Guard as well as the other two.

I don't really count it though for da orksies because at the very most they can only have a squad. If they could field Deff Dreads, Nobs, Boyz, OR gretchins to fill their FOC solely it'd be a different story. As it stands you can't fill your troop choice with Nobs or Deff Dreads, You can however fill your troop choice with Wolf Guard though, so I did misspeak.

If you have 2 warbosses you can have 2 nob squads be troops.

On bikes that is a 1500 point army right there. and it isn't a horrible army either.

Draigo wrote:

Oppressor wrote:Grey knights strike squad.

SM staline, storm bolter, FORCEWEAPON and psychic, for 5pts more than a GH... :(

Who get killed off by ork boyz because they dont care about force weapons and make strike squd make over 100 saves. lol

You should really learn to read the original post.

Devil Dog wrote:In your opinion what codex has the best troops and why?

Nothing in there specifies unit size or even units to begin with, much less versus any other unit in any scenario. It's seemingly completely open to interpretation by the poster to base their decision on any criteria they wish with the exception of it being considered "Troops." I take that to mean individual troops. This is in keeping with the original post.

To humor you;
You completely forgot about storm bolters. Force weapons means that 1/3 of the wounds on the remaining boys that survived the storm bolters to finally get into CC that could have been saved, are now 1/3 more deaths, and don't nobs have 2 wounds?

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

I am not unhappy with Chaos troop choices. While they aren't exactly priced accurately to reflect the current codices they still give you a tool for just about any job.

Knock a few points off each one or give them all force weapons and +1 str psychic ammunition and I'm good.

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

Redbeard wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I agree with everything you are saying. However, Imperial guard power blobs are horrendously effective in close combat and assaults.

But, the way I see it, there are two ways to determine which troops choice is best:

1) In best Troop choice vs best troop choice, who comes out on top? Has to be guard.

2) Troop choice vs other units. Which troop choice can take out other units in game most efficiently? I know that guard again, are very effective.

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I agree with everything you are saying. However, Imperial guard power blobs are horrendously effective in close combat and assaults.

Not as effective as their equivilent in orks. They cost a point more but have a higher toughness, 3 strength 4 attacks on the charge, the guardsmen will need 5s to wound them back. There'd be no contest.

Redbeard wrote:

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I don't know, if you're running into that, then someone is either forgetting to bring commissars, or you've not run into powerblobs before.

Power Blobs are ridiculously stubborn, and they'll usually stay till the last man. I've seen many blobs that will literally keep fighting until only the commissar and 1 other guy was standing, and the commissar will pop the last guy in the head just so he can stay in the fight. Not to mention they can inflict insane amounts of damage before they finally go down if you've kitted them out right. Yeah, an individual guardsman isn't that scary, but once you pile 30 of em into a single assault, with rerollable hits on the charge, furious charge, and tons of hidden PW attacks, they can be incredibly scary in close combat. Not to mention the fact that I believe the guardsmen will strike before the orks in close combat correct? Guardsmen are I 3, I dont know orks Initiative.

Joey wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I agree with everything you are saying. However, Imperial guard power blobs are horrendously effective in close combat and assaults.

Not as effective as their equivilent in orks. They cost a point more but have a higher toughness, 3 strength 4 attacks on the charge, the guardsmen will need 5s to wound them back. There'd be no contest.

I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

DAaddict wrote:Cost is debatable but purely from troop choices I like CSM.

Effective plain jane CSM - upto 20 - higher morale and +1 attack vs standard marines. Interesting options of +1 T, +1 A, +1 I, 5++ saves or rerollable morale.

Very buff units - at a cost- but still troops so they can control objectives. Khorne Berzerkers and/or Plague Marines.

This... Berzerkers and Plague Marines! It definitely says choices, plural! I don't think any other codex has two choices as strong as CSM or as suitable to be used together FTW.


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Ignatius wrote:

Joey wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Redbeard wrote:My vote is with ork boyz. Perhaps they don't have as many options, but I don't know of any other codex where you can win regular sized (1500-2000 point) games simply by putting down 6 maxxed troop choices.

I would have to argue that Imperial Guard can easily do the same. Actually, I believe you can win a regular sized game with less than 6 choices. 6 choices gives you:

300 guardsmen
90 heavy weapons teams
12 special weapons squads, 3 weapons each: 36 special weapons
300 conscripts

That's not even counting the 30 commissars, 60 power weapons, 30 extra heavy weapons teams and special weapons in the squads.

Anyways, I vote for the Imperial Guard.

The difference is in assault. 180 orks aren't going to get swept off the table, at least not that I've seen. I've played against massed guardsmen and combo assaults lead to a lot of men running away in terror. But, I agree, guard can field a significant force with just their troops as well.

I agree with everything you are saying. However, Imperial guard power blobs are horrendously effective in close combat and assaults.

Not as effective as their equivilent in orks. They cost a point more but have a higher toughness, 3 strength 4 attacks on the charge, the guardsmen will need 5s to wound them back. There'd be no contest.

I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

Don't rule out the power of Furious charge either!

Ignatius wrote:
I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

Nothing in a blob can take a power fist. Platoon command can take them, and their attached commissar, as well as CCS obviously.
Other than that you'd have to bring a priest with the specific aim of using him in close combat which would be foolish, to say the least.
Blobs are great against terminators and other small, elite group. But orks will lay out a serious amount of power in close combat IIRC at WS4.
Blobs are not supposed to be in assault with other mob units.

Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

Joey wrote:

Ignatius wrote:
I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

Nothing in a blob can take a power fist. Platoon command can take them, and their attached commissar, as well as CCS obviously.
Other than that you'd have to bring a priest with the specific aim of using him in close combat which would be foolish, to say the least.
Blobs are great against terminators and other small, elite group. But orks will lay out a serious amount of power in close combat IIRC at WS4.
Blobs are not supposed to be in assault with other mob units.

Are we talking equal amounts of points or units? Keep in mind I never said orks weren't effective in close combat, nor did I say that guard are better. I said guard can be good in close combat, which was the main selling point of Redbeard. I was merely counter arguing his claim of boyz being best.

However, where orks are dedicated close combat units, guard aren't so much. Guard would fair better against ork boyz in close combat than ork boyz would in a shooting match.


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Grey Templar wrote:Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

However, orks wouldn't go first, so your example is irrelevent.

You havn't faced a full on shoota boy army.

They can outshoot guard easily and beat up everyone too stupid to die to their shooting.

What codex provides the best troop choices? It depends on how we are defining best.

points efficiency- Orks, all the troop choices are costed incredibly well. 180 guys for less than 1200 pts. hard to argue with that.
adaptability- IG, they can be all roles at once if you put enough points into them.
killing potential- depends on the situation but I would say the grey knight has the options to make them killing machines.
survivability- If we include special units, paladin troops.
board control- Eldar jetbikes or Dire avengers in wave serpents, no one is faster, no one does it better.
the "tim tebow" (special) factor- Grey Hunters, their special rules and MEQ statline make them hard to resist.

In my experience though, if IG ONLY brings troops, they have a decent chance of failing. If Grey Knights only bring troops, they have a good chance of failing. If Space wolves only bring troops they have a good chance of failing. I am going with orks cause you can ONLY bring troops and win.

Grey Templar wrote:You havn't faced a full on shoota boy army.

They can outshoot guard easily and beat up everyone too stupid to die to their shooting.

Not really. Guard vehicles would smash them.


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Ignatius wrote:

Joey wrote:

Ignatius wrote:
I'm fairly certain orks are Initiative 2 though, so the guard would bring them down at little. And powerfists would wound on a 2+.

Nothing in a blob can take a power fist. Platoon command can take them, and their attached commissar, as well as CCS obviously.
Other than that you'd have to bring a priest with the specific aim of using him in close combat which would be foolish, to say the least.
Blobs are great against terminators and other small, elite group. But orks will lay out a serious amount of power in close combat IIRC at WS4.
Blobs are not supposed to be in assault with other mob units.

Are we talking equal amounts of points or units? Keep in mind I never said orks weren't effective in close combat, nor did I say that guard are better. I said guard can be good in close combat, which was the main selling point of Redbeard. I was merely counter arguing his claim of boyz being best.

However, where orks are dedicated close combat units, guard aren't so much. Guard would fair better against ork boyz in close combat than ork boyz would in a shooting match.


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Grey Templar wrote:Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

However, orks wouldn't go first, so your example is irrelevent.

I know you weren't saying guard were useless in CC, but against a mob of sluggas they are.
They do go first, so we'll go with that: 27 normal attacks, 16 PW. That's 3.75 and 2.6, 6.3 dead so we can remove 6 orks.
Orks strike back, 89 attacks, 60 hit, 40 wound, 26 dead. You're already down to one man and your sargents/commissars.

Tervigons seem like they would be an incredible troop choice in any other codex, but that opens a real can of worms with all the conditions and whatnot involved.

Lucre wrote:Tervigons seem like they would be an incredible troop choice in any other codex, but that opens a real can of worms with all the conditions and whatnot involved.

Agreed. Otherwise it might of been worth mentioning Paladins, but for simplicity sake I just stuck with what was actually in the troop section.

fleetofclaw wrote:

Garukadon wrote:Tyranid Warriors- 3 w's, 3 A's, Fearless, messes with psykers, 4+ sv ( meh ), power weapons, rending, ID capability, lnitiative reducing wargear, furious charge, assault 3 shooting and they can deep strike. They are expensive but these are a strong contender for best reg. troop choice. If not best than maybe toughest or most dangerous- basically they could easily be elite choices.

And they're horribly slow (sigh, losing the leap option sucked), can be instant deathed by S8 spam, and are overcosted. I'm sorry but with no eternal warrior or invuln save no one takes Warriors in competitive lists. Yes all those things you listed sound nice but those are options, and they're options that come at a price. Can't have everything. Show me a troop choice that does cause I cant think of one. You can set up warriors to be shooty, cc orientated, even capable of taking out tanks in cc. They lack mobility but there is the option to deepstrike them in mycetic spores. What other troop choice has a toughness of 5 to survive S8 spam, let alone Eternal Warrior? My point is: Warriors stats wise and option wise looks like they could be elite troops. If you were to compare apples to apples, troops to troops, it'd be hard to find an equal.
I do think some of the best troop choices do come from the Tyranid codex. Agreed.
Genestealers for life Genestealers- love em, but the fact they dont have 4+ and zero shooting kept them from my 1st choice as best.
And hard to argue with a T6 6 wound model that can cast FNP and poop out more troops squatting on objectives. Thats an HQ choice originally and didnt want to muck up the waters with special allowances, otherwise yeah, they would be hard not to say that is the best.
Outside Nids, love them Boyz and Grey Hunters.

Joey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

I know you weren't saying guard were useless in CC, but against a mob of sluggas they are.
They do go first, so we'll go with that: 27 normal attacks, 16 PW. That's 3.75 and 2.6, 6.3 dead so we can remove 6 orks.
Orks strike back, 89 attacks, 60 hit, 40 wound, 26 dead. You're already down to one man and your sargents/commissars.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but ork sluggas are at I 2 right?

And I'll conceed that boyz are better than guardsmen at CC

I would have to cast my vote for Grey Hunters and CSM, the value they bring, for the points they cost is excellent.

Immortals are good, tough, and have a strong weapon, without having to pay for any upgrades, high leadership, and the chance of getting back up. Just cant get into melee with them.

im gonna vote TYRANIDS.... just because they have a troop option that makes more troops. lol yeah it can die out easily.. but when you have 3 troop tervigons and 2 hq tervigons.....lots of troops will be spawned

Lord_Ghazghkull wrote:im gonna vote TYRANIDS.... just because they have a troop option that makes more troops. lol yeah it can die out easily.. but when you have 3 troop tervigons and 2 hq tervigons.....lots of troops will be spawned

Not to mention that a Tyranid player should have 0 qualms about maxing out their Troop slots.

Ignatius wrote:

Joey wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Yup, 30 ork boz charging have a wopping 90 attacks.

90 attacks, 60 hits, 40 wounds, and 27 failed guardsmen saves.

a blob of 50 guardsmen would have 23 guys left. 5 Power sword sergeants, commissar, and 17 regular guys.

18 power sword attacks and 17 regular attacks.

3 power wounds and 2 regular wounds get past the T-shirt saves. 5 orks die.

the orks will kill the guardmen competely in 2 more rounds assuming they don't break first, the guardsmen wont win combat.

I know you weren't saying guard were useless in CC, but against a mob of sluggas they are.
They do go first, so we'll go with that: 27 normal attacks, 16 PW. That's 3.75 and 2.6, 6.3 dead so we can remove 6 orks.
Orks strike back, 89 attacks, 60 hit, 40 wound, 26 dead. You're already down to one man and your sargents/commissars.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but ork sluggas are at I 2 right?

And I'll conceed that boyz are better than guardsmen at CC

I2 with FC and fleet. And any Green tide will have Gazz so the Boyz should get the charge most of the time making them strike at the same time as the Guards

What a weird discussion. This is really not pleasant to try to sort out, and when I try, I have to keep asking myself why. Maybe some purpose would help us refine our standards. Can the OP give us some more direction?

I'm suprised people haven't started trying to settle this like men rather than debating like some poncy eldar.

Its time people start lining'em up! Put equivalent values of troop choices 18 inches away from each other and let the dice decide!

This discussion has devolved into e-peen warfare. Nobody actually takes 180 orks seriously anymore (and they never should have). I've never seen 20 man CSM units actually fielded with a straight face. Neither really functions all that well on the table. 180 orks get in each others way, get bound up on terrain, and generally don't live up to their promise of a huge monolithic tide hitting the enemies wall. This only works against idiots who never heard of refused flanks, defense in depth, or other basic tactics. The 20 CSM aren't good since they foot slog, have rapid fire weapons, and you cut into the number of relevant weapons (like things with anti tank and/or AP value that matters). Sorry, bolters aren't why you buy squads. The main purpose for bolters is giving you the ability to stop hordes, not because they are particularly versatile or good.

The best troops have the ability to concentrate force, the ability to dish out a variety of punishment, and either dance out of the way or ignore enemy attacks.

So that being said, Marines (I put all the varieties in this list, they aren't enough different) are probably the best generalist troop.
Eldar (both types) have the best specialist troops, though neither one can really take a hit, speed kills.
Necrons: Both choices have useful fire, though lacking a bit in anti tank. Warriors can take a pretty decent transport. Immortals have assault weapons that are surprisingly effective. Both are extremely survivable even before adding in army synergy.

Armies with ineffective troops:
Tau, FW are nearly useless, and kroot are useful, but weedy.
Daemon troops are amazing value for their assault ability. But their deployment and durability is crippling.

Armies with OK troops:
Orks. Not flexible. But they can spam attacks and take a fair amount of killing to finish off a squad. Though it takes much less to make the squad a non threat.
SoB. Cheap power armor with good BS and good weapon options. Army wide nerfing to powers makes this SoB player into a former SoB player though.
Nids. Weedy unless you use give them cover saves, and/or FNP. The fact that you can makes them a legitimate threat. They are dangerous in assault, and they can take decent anti infantry power. Just not versatile enough.

Grots!

Grots are awesome

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I still think the Ork Codex has among the best troops.

There's Ork Boyz, who are just plain awesome. There's Grots, for when you need to hold objectives for cheap. There's Warbikers, if you need to be swift and then there's the various versions of Nobz, for when stuff needs to die.

Probably the best description of the Ork Codex I have ever read.

Doesn' the Master of the Forge make Dreads a troops choice? If so, then I vote for them.

Otherwise, Grey Hunters.



EDIT: Unfortunately, Necrons might have the worst Troops choices in 40k.

I don't play necrons. But I've played against them quite a bit. Everyone says just attack them, but they aren't the push over they are made out to be, especially when they've hammered with their ranged first. Their weapons seem to always get a few glances to my transports, and their guns lay havoc on me. I won against two players this week, but I had to plan for them specifically with my marines. And I got lucky with mission and deployment.

genestealers?

And did I mention that fir every Tgant unit, you can take a tervigon as a troop choice!

azazel the cat wrote:Doesn' the Master of the Forge make Dreads a troops choice? If so, then I vote for them.

MotF makes dreads able to be taken as heavy support in addition to elites.

Blood angels can take DC dreads as troops (1 for every 5 DC). Niether count as scoring though.

I just want to mention one thing, people have said sw grey hunters a lot. Take a unit of grey hunts and a unit of gkss start them 24 " apart and see who wins, it's not even close.

Pony_law wrote:I just want to mention one thing, people have said sw grey hunters a lot. Take a unit of grey hunts and a unit of gkss start them 24 " apart and see who wins, it's not even close.

I agree. The Grey Hunters will give no quarter and the GKSS player will get huffy about losing.

The reason everyone says Grey Hunters are the best troops choice is because of how undercosted they are. Don't match then up unit vs unit, match them up point vs. point.


EDIT: Also, don't try to examine how well Grey Hunters perform under GKSS' nominal circumstances. Choose a proper test, like an actual deployment.

Discussions like this always make me pine for the old WH codex

Nevermind that we only had 2 (count 'em) troop choices; a squad of regular SoB was pretty much the most versatile thing you could field in a game of 40k.

Probably Ork Boyz, as they are cheap and powerful troops choices (and you can take 30 of them in one squad!).

Grey Hunters - 10 Models - Power Armor,CCW+BP,Bolters....two swap bolters for Meltaguns, one swaps BP for Plasma Pistol, one swaps CCW for Powerfist, one takes MotW. All have Krak and Frag Grenades, They Shall Know No Fear,Counter-Attack,Acute Senses

210 Points

........

Anarchyman99 wrote:Grey Hunters - 10 Models - Power Armor,CCW+BP,Bolters....two swap bolters for Meltaguns, one swaps BP for Plasma Pistol, one swaps CCW for Powerfist, one takes MotW. All have Krak and Frag Grenades, They Shall Know No Fear,Counter-Attack,Acute Senses

210 Points

........

245 points for a chaos squad with the same equipment. But they don't get ATSKNF, counter attack, or acute sense. So 35 more points for shittier troops. Yay!

If the question is which codex provides the best choices for Troops, then I would say CSM. Each Cult Squad is amazing at what they do and the regular CSM are there for when your short on points. While none of these are the best Troop choice available, the 5 together offer the biggest and most diverse selection of Troops to choose from.


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If the question is which codex provides the best choices for Troops, then I would say CSM. Each Cult Squad is amazing at what they do and the regular CSM are there for when your short on points. While none of these are the best Troop choice available, the 5 together offer the biggest and most diverse selection of Troops to choose from.

kshaw2000 wrote:genestealers?

And did I mention that fir every Tgant unit, you can take a tervigon as a troop choice!

Tervigon for me. Toughness 6 wounds 6 monstrous creature that gives feel no pain and spawns other troops for free. You can't get a troop choice better than that.

Garukadon wrote:

Lucre wrote:Tervigons seem like they would be an incredible troop choice in any other codex, but that opens a real can of worms with all the conditions and whatnot involved.

Agreed. Otherwise it might of been worth mentioning Paladins, but for simplicity sake I just stuck with what was actually in the troop section.

fleetofclaw wrote:

Garukadon wrote:Tyranid Warriors- 3 w's, 3 A's, Fearless, messes with psykers, 4+ sv ( meh ), power weapons, rending, ID capability, lnitiative reducing wargear, furious charge, assault 3 shooting and they can deep strike. They are expensive but these are a strong contender for best reg. troop choice. If not best than maybe toughest or most dangerous- basically they could easily be elite choices.

And they're horribly slow (sigh, losing the leap option sucked), can be instant deathed by S8 spam, and are overcosted. I'm sorry but with no eternal warrior or invuln save no one takes Warriors in competitive lists. Yes all those things you listed sound nice but those are options, and they're options that come at a price. Can't have everything. Show me a troop choice that does cause I cant think of one. You can set up warriors to be shooty, cc orientated, even capable of taking out tanks in cc. They lack mobility but there is the option to deepstrike them in mycetic spores. What other troop choice has a toughness of 5 to survive S8 spam, let alone Eternal Warrior? My point is: Warriors stats wise and option wise looks like they could be elite troops. If you were to compare apples to apples, troops to troops, it'd be hard to find an equal.
I do think some of the best troop choices do come from the Tyranid codex. Agreed.

Genestealers for life Genestealers- love em, but the fact they dont have 4+ and zero shooting kept them from my 1st choice as best.
And hard to argue with a T6 6 wound model that can cast FNP and poop out more troops squatting on objectives. Thats an HQ choice originally and didnt want to muck up the waters with special allowances, otherwise yeah, they would be hard not to say that is the best.
Outside Nids, love them Boyz and Grey Hunters.

I never said warriors had bad statlines or good options. That doesn't change the fact that they're a bad choice. I already said it but they cost too much and are very easy to kill. You can't compare them in a vacuum like you are doing, equal points of most other troop choices vs equal points of warriors is going to be ugly for the warriors. 1 warrior vs 1 space marine, well of COURSE the warrior is better, but I'm pretty sure we're playing 40k here... where points matter. For their cost, warriors either need T5, an invuln save, or EW (maybe drop a wound if they had EW).

By the way, warriors kitted to take out tanks in CC has fail written all over it.

Dark Eldar. All their troop choices are extremely solid

IG
Orks
Space marines (any flavour)

The rest have much worse troops.