Darnok over at Warseer posted this by an anonymous source:

Concerning Chaos:

- the book is done and almost at the printers
- an Iron Warriors character (?) has been seen, with a huge servo harness
- possible new Obliterators (plastic or Finecast?)
- painted versions of all 4 cult terminators have been sighted - could be conversions though
- plastic Plaguebearers on round bases have been sighted

Also Hastings confirmed Chaos to be in the 6th edition starter set, including a Plastic Dreadnought and traitors/cultists

Why would they make more Oblits only to put them in Finecost?

Please plastic. Really please.

Please, plastic nice looking oblits. Please, plastic 1K Sons. Please, plastic every major legion. Please, new Bezerkers.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would they make more Oblits only to put them in Finecost?

Please plastic. Really please.

To show their ongoing support of finecast products ?
Oblits are groups of 3, right? Thus finecast isn't bad if other more numerous choices are plastic...

Ahhhhhh yeah! Plastic Chaos dread with cultists!

I bet E-Bay will be flooded with them soon enough.

1hadhq wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would they make more Oblits only to put them in Finecost?

Please plastic. Really please.

To show their ongoing support of finecast products ?
Oblits are groups of 3, right? Thus finecast isn't bad if other more numerous choices are plastic...

Because we, their customers, demand it? Surely every company wanting to make money will listen to their fan base?? Oh wait a minute ....

Finally some plaguebearers if true. Wish they kinda did more then sit on objectives though

Swordwind wrote: Please, plastic every major legion. Please, new Bezerkers.

Agreed - especially the Berzerker bit, the current ones are rubbish - and Forgeworld bits are expensive. My only question is - exactly when will this happen?

Plastic cultist hm?

Well I doubt they will be good as my renegade miltia but I will definetly buy some cultist if/when they come out.

Thanks for starting another Chaos thread, Kroot. Are you planning on adding any of the more reliable info from the previous thread? Hastings did confirm plastic Raptors. Also, Schell posted abut renegade guard being in the starter a ways back. Seems like he had good info too.

Anyway, Can't wait for a proper codex to rebuild my Death Guard.

1hadhq wrote:To show their ongoing support of finecast products ?
Oblits are groups of 3, right? Thus finecast isn't bad if other more numerous choices are plastic...

Well... I dunno about you, but I am sensing a theme here.

Plastic Oblits seems likely to me.

So Cultists make it back into the codex? Nice.

Kroothawk wrote:...painted versions of all 4 cult terminators have been sighted - could be conversions though

If true (and if not conversions/Forge World) then this is excellent news, since it suggests we're likely to get proper rules for cult Terminators in place of all that icon rubbish.

The rest I can take or leave (though resculpted Obliterators and Plague Marines wouldn't be unwelcome).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would they make more Oblits only to put them in Finecost?

Please plastic. Really please.

But we all know they are going to tone them down to the point where you don't really use them as the new HS options will outshine them.

Chaos Stormraven?

Couldn't care less about Iron Warriors.

We need plastic oblits! Finecast oblits would be BAD.

Bought time we got plastic plague bearers!

And cultists ... I honestly didn't think they would do it. All and all this is pretty good news. Hopefully they don't nerf the Oblits and make them 90 points each in the new book.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for plastic cult troops ...

Can not wait,,Iron Within,,Iron Without!!

I have to say, I'm not too convinced we will see plastic plaguebearers for the Chaos Space Marines release. It doesn't make much sense. Assuming Daemons will stay a separate codex, which they should, it seems more of a Daemons model release, as it's the one troops unit they don't have in plastic. If we are to assume they won't drastically expand the unit options for the next Daemons codex, they have just a handful of units to update, and it seems plaguebearers would fit in better there. Also, keep in mind just because a unit has been spotted doesn't necessarily mean it's up for release soon.

All that said, I really hope I'm wrong. Lack of plastic plaguebearers is the only thing preventing me from starting a Daemons army, and I'd definitely use a bunch with my Death Guard as well.

I don't want plastic oblits....... it would make them to common a choice and they SHOULD NOT BE. except possibly Iron warriors or possibly tzeentch armies.....

It's not like everything plastic becomes common.

They might mean Plague Marines. *shrug*

I sincerely doubt "plastic kits for every major legion" because goddamn, that's nine kits, all with very niche appeal.

That was me wishlisting, and by major legions I meant the legions of the four gods. Bugger Chaos Undivided.

I have 60 Forgeworld Cultists. Damn you GW if these ones look better.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would they make more Oblits only to put them in Finecast?

Please plastic. Really please.

As nice as it would be for every last unit to be plastic it isn't practical and GW doesn't have resources. I would be ecstatic if the were plastic, but it's not a realistic desire when it would be at the price of waiting indefinitely for a new vehicle or dreadnought kit or a cult legion relegated to finecast or metal hybrid models until the next book.

I hope they happen in plastic... I'd imagine it being like the bloodcrushers... But there are enough other things to look forward to.

I hope they do nice plastic obliterators. Never got the metal ones, cuz I didn't want big metal ones and I never really liked the look that much. I thought about converting my own from terminators, but I was afraid they'd just look like terminators with extra guns.

I'm keeping my cash saved. Been wanting a new Khorne/chaos part for my army a while now but been waiting for a new dex and new mini's.

Brother SRM wrote:I sincerely doubt "plastic kits for every major legion" because goddamn, that's nine kits, all with very niche appeal.

Or more likely one kit with many uses ah la grey knight infantry boxes

Well, I think as a rule GW makes finecast for HQ/Elite/FA/HS models and plastic for troupes.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I think as a rule GW makes finecast for HQ/Elite/FA/HS models and plastic for troupes.

Why wont the Fantasy ideas spill over to 40k

Imagine plastic HQs

Grundz wrote:
Or more likely one kit with many uses ah la grey knight infantry boxes

Ah yes, a kit just to make Chaos Space Marines! Novel idea! I'm assuming you mean something like upgrade sprues?

wuestenfux wrote:Well, I think as a rule GW makes finecast for HQ/Elite/FA/HS models and plastic for troupes.

Yeah, there are no plastic HQ, elite, fast attack or heavy support models for Chaos Space Marines aside from the Chaos Terminator lord, Chaos Terminators, Possessed, Chaos spawn, bikers, defilers, predators, vindicators or land raiders. None whatsoever! I wouldn't say it's a rule exactly, but units they don't expect people will want/need a lot of tend to get the Finecast (formerly metal) treatment. Plastic has been more and more pervasive over the last few years though, and I would expect more and more plastic as we go on. Really hoping 40k gets the plastic character treatment that Fantasy's been getting.

I think they could easily make plastic shoulder pad sprues, the same size as the plastic WFB character sprues.. 1 set for each legion, they can prolly fill up their mold with a whole lot of those mini sprues so the investment won't be too bad.

I'd expect something more like resin bitz packs though.

Considering the absolute goddamn pinning nightmare I had putting together my Iron Warriors using the metal bitz packs, I wouldn't mind Finecast bitz packs. All my metal ones had screwed up details anyway, I doubt Finecast could be that much worse, and if it was I wouldn't have to pin at least.

Cadaver wrote:I have to say, I'm not too convinced we will see plastic plaguebearers for the Chaos Space Marines release. It doesn't make much sense. Assuming Daemons will stay a separate codex, which they should,

No they shouldn't, this was the most stupid decision they've made.

Giving Deamons or even GK's their own codex is like giving Vespids or Ratlings or even Ogryns their own Codex, this might sound fun at first, but it is stupid.

I do hope that if Chaos is redone as a whole we get A; a true use for Deamons in Legions codex, or B; a new and better Deamon codex after the Legion one.

On a different note, i do hope for Plastic HQ's choices, after all nearly all the recent plastics Heroes for Battle where of really good quality.

Also for the Cultist/Renegades units in the new Chaos, maybe we will have a Coteaz§Henchman combo into Chaos, Take that "XXX Named Alpha legion Char and Cultists units become scoring".

Grundz wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:I sincerely doubt "plastic kits for every major legion" because goddamn, that's nine kits, all with very niche appeal.

Or more likely one kit with many uses ah la grey knight infantry boxes

Oh dear Dark Gods, please no...i really don't want to pay 25$ for 5 Marines, no matter how many options/accessories you can have in the box...

Its something that i begin to hate a little with the new GW trending... 1 box 2 units..., thats the lazy way of doing things.

Look at the Ghost Ark and the Ogre beasts..., they look too much alike from one option to the other to stir any interest in me!

I do hope that we will avoid this...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

1hadhq wrote:To show their ongoing support of finecast products ?
Oblits are groups of 3, right? Thus finecast isn't bad if other more numerous choices are plastic...

Well... I dunno about you, but I am sensing a theme here.

Plastic Oblits seems likely to me.

I sense unwarranted optimism. And need I remind you of the Archon's court?

I hope Noise Marines, 1000 Sons and Plague Marines are released in plastic...or at least upgrade sprues.

Everybody is wanting plastic oblits, but what I really want is more than one viable choice in heavy support.

Slayer le boucher wrote:

Cadaver wrote:I have to say, I'm not too convinced we will see plastic plaguebearers for the Chaos Space Marines release. It doesn't make much sense. Assuming Daemons will stay a separate codex, which they should,

No they shouldn't, this was the most stupid decision they've made.

Giving Deamons or even GK's their own codex is like giving Vespids or Ratlings or even Ogryns their own Codex, this might sound fun at first, but it is stupid.

In that context I meant the Daemon codex will still exist, as some rumors have talked about the two codexes merging again, which I don't believe. GW have stated all codexes they produce will remain and no armies will ever be invalidated again, as was the case with Craftworld Eldar, LaTD, etc.

Making a Daemons codex was not inherently a bad idea, but removing all non-generic daemons from the CSM codex was. A pure Daemons list has it's place in the game, and it's hardly the same as arguing two different types of marine armies shouldn't be separate armies.

edit: can't spell

Obliterators:

1) Plastic
2) Lower points cost per model
3) Probably dump Havocs or move to Fast

/end rant

It's for the kids, see.

Tacobake wrote:Obliterators:

1) Plastic
2) Lower points cost per model
3) Probably dump Havocs or move to Fast

/end rant

It's for the kids, see.

If anything, expect a SC allowing you to take a single Obliterator unit as troops. Or maybe even a Warsmith upgrade to the generic Lord doing the same thing.

Well. Since we're wishlisting here. I'd like to see them make a plastic box set for each of the 4 cult troops. Then do what they did with the Dark Angles vet boxs, were you get some death wing termy parts in every box.

So if you you got plastic Noise mariens, you would get parts to convert Slaanesh Termies. If not then something like the space wolves were you get alot of extra bits for converted normal CSM to the god of your choice.

I would bassicly re-buy my Emperor's Children if they did that....

edit:

spyguyyoda wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

1hadhq wrote:To show their ongoing support of finecast products ?
Oblits are groups of 3, right? Thus finecast isn't bad if other more numerous choices are plastic...

Well... I dunno about you, but I am sensing a theme here.

Plastic Oblits seems likely to me.

I sense unwarranted optimism. And need I remind you of the Archon's court?

I have to agree with you thier.

The made up rumors were so much better.....

Here's to hoping we get more than just an Iron Warriors Character. I so, so, so hope we get legion rules.

Rbb wrote:Everybody is wanting plastic oblits, but what I really want is more than one viable choice in heavy support.

Non-CSM player here, but I see them occasionally. Having that been said, what's wrong with a shooty Defilier?

Tacobake wrote:Obliterators:

1) Plastic
2) Lower points cost per model
3) Probably dump Havocs or move to Fast

/end rant

It's for the kids, see.

Why would they move to fast? Havocs aren't getting dumped either.

Why are plaguebearers getting a release alongside with CSM?

Does this mean that we will have god specific daemons again?

OMG, Plastic plague bearers please. For the love of Nurgle, I need them. I'll buy 5 boxes right away. If they combine demons and CSM again, I'll be soooo pissed off. What would I do with my 4k of demon? and when they get around to demons, they have to redo the greater demons. Current greater demons just look lame for the most part. Also, I think chaos should be made more chaotic, both csm and demons. Spikes shouldn't signify chaos on marines.

I doubt they'll do away with Daemons altogether. They'll probably just do something simple, like let you mark daemons in a CSM army. I hope so anyway; that's how I'd fix daemons in CSM armies.

Since PP doesn't want my money anymore, I guess I'll save up 300 euro or so for Chaos goodness!

lord_blackfang wrote:Since PP doesn't want my money anymore, I guess I'll save up 300 euro or so for Chaos goodness!

I'm curious, lord_blackfang - what makes you think PP doesn't want your money any more?

don't know why but this this kinda of thread doesn't give me the thrill anymore.

daedalus wrote:

Rbb wrote:Everybody is wanting plastic oblits, but what I really want is more than one viable choice in heavy support.

Non-CSM player here, but I see them occasionally. Having that been said, what's wrong with a shooty Defilier?

Well. For only abit more points I get 3 oblits, who I can stick in terriean to get a +4 cover save from lascannons and such that would ignore armour/instakill my oblits. This is alot more surviable then a huge AV12 defilier everyone shoots at 1st turn. (So hard to give that damn thing a cover save....) Oblits also alot more versitile dude to all the diffrent weapons they are rocking.

I bet they do what they did with witch hunters and demon hunters. The popular choice gets a codex and the other a white dwarf shart list lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lockark wrote:

daedalus wrote:

Rbb wrote:Everybody is wanting plastic oblits, but what I really want is more than one viable choice in heavy support.

Non-CSM player here, but I see them occasionally. Having that been said, what's wrong with a shooty Defilier?

Well. For only abit more points I get 3 oblits, who I can stick in terriean to get a +4 cover save from lascannons and such that would ignore armour/instakill my oblits. This is alot more surviable then a huge AV12 defilier everyone shoots at 1st turn. (So hard to give that damn thing a cover save....) Oblits also alot more versitile dude to all the diffrent weapons they are rocking.

Notice they have less options in every codex to date.... I wouldn't be shocked at this point if you buy their weapons or if they had a light armor value lol.

Going to make several guesses based off GW patterns, older editions of the rules, and the dawn of war video games.

Cultists would probably be similar to GK warrior henchmen with a lower leadership for the squad, but with a LD9 squad leader. Guess based off old rules.

They will probably be able to carry Icons. Guess based off old rules

Probably just a standard troops choice with a squad size between 10-20. Guess based off old rules

They will probably look similar to cultists in the dawn of war video games. Guess based off old miniatures + Dawn of war.







I'm just looking forward to having cultists again.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

1hadhq wrote:To show their ongoing support of finecast products ?
Oblits are groups of 3, right? Thus finecast isn't bad if other more numerous choices are plastic...

Well... I dunno about you, but I am sensing a theme here.

Plastic Oblits seems likely to me.

I'm not. Every one of those is a multipart plastic sprue with numerous options and most importantly of all, they can't fit in a blister package. Obliterators are probably still going to be monopose mashes of guns with no actual customizeability. The hallmark of a finecast blister release is the lack of required options and relatively small scale. Thats not to say that they won't but they're shown their willingness to do so with anything that can fit in a blister in the past.

Wow, this actually, has me excited about my army now. Glad they will be doing a plastic Dread, was about to go in for a FW Contemptor to convert up.

Slayer le boucher wrote:

Cadaver wrote:I have to say, I'm not too convinced we will see plastic plaguebearers for the Chaos Space Marines release. It doesn't make much sense. Assuming Daemons will stay a separate codex, which they should,

No they shouldn't, this was the most stupid decision they've made.

Giving Deamons or even GK's their own codex is like giving Vespids or Ratlings or even Ogryns their own Codex, this might sound fun at first, but it is stupid.

I do hope that if Chaos is redone as a whole we get A; a true use for Deamons in Legions codex, or B; a new and better Deamon codex after the Legion one.

On a different note, i do hope for Plastic HQ's choices, after all nearly all the recent plastics Heroes for Battle where of really good quality.

Also for the Cultist/Renegades units in the new Chaos, maybe we will have a Coteaz§Henchman combo into Chaos, Take that "XXX Named Alpha legion Char and Cultists units become scoring".

Amen and exalted! Codex Daemons and Chaos Space Marines SHOULD have been in the SAME book or at minimum cross usuable. Along with cultists....

Rbb wrote:Everybody is wanting plastic oblits, but what I really want is more than one viable choice in heavy support.

*cough* Hell Talon *cough*
*cough* Hell Blade *cough*

...I mean given current...Stormravens....Valks and Vendettas....Razorwing and Void Ravens...*whistles and walks off*

*looks at Hell Talon and Hell Blade*

Yeah, not nearly spiky or skully enough. I think we'll instead see the Skullspike Fighter, which will be a flying stylised skull covered in highly aerodynamic spikes. The kit will also allow you to make the Spikeskull Assault Craft, a transport/bomber. Both will come equipped with Bloodspike Rockets or Hellskull Bombs.

H.B.M.C. wrote:*looks at Hell Talon and Hell Blade*

Yeah, not nearly spiky or skully enough. I think we'll instead see the Skullspike Fighter, which will be a flying stylised skull covered in highly aerodynamic spikes. The kit will also allow you to make the Spikeskull Assault Craft, a transport/bomber. Both will come equipped with Bloodspike Rockets or Hellskull Bombs.

lol, only if ward writes the book which i pray to Khorne he does not

H.B.M.C. wrote:*looks at Hell Talon and Hell Blade*

Yeah, not nearly spiky or skully enough. I think we'll instead see the Skullspike Fighter, which will be a flying stylised skull covered in highly aerodynamic spikes. The kit will also allow you to make the Spikeskull Assault Craft, a transport/bomber. Both will come equipped with Bloodspike Rockets or Hellskull Bombs.

I'm with you here and it could look like this!

Slayer le boucher: Take that "XXX Named Alpha legion Char and Cultists units become scoring".

there will actualy be 3 alpha legion SCs and their names will all be Alpharius! :-)

I'm hoping for plastic oblits, hell they sell enough of them to make it worth the cost of the plastic mold.

We need drop pods, and flavor that's about it. I hope they make some legion rules, but if they don't they better make marking things more thematic (things like mark specific deamons and lords actualy acting like they follow a god, not this "cultist lite" crap). that and i want to see raptors that don't cost 100 bucks a squad.

It better not be a "Take Special Character X to play Legion X" affair. Can you imagine all the Emperor's Children players out there who don't want to bring Lucius the Eternally Useless to every game?

Wouldn't the HQs be remade too? One would assume that the HQs would be less useless.

The approach they've been taking is unlocking different parts of the codex as troop choices, that might be what they're planning here too.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It better not be a "Take Special Character X to play Legion X" affair. Can you imagine all the Emperor's Children players out there who don't want to bring Lucius the Eternally Useless to every game?

Legions aren't neccessarily the prominent part of a codex. Cultists included, the legionaires could get a new job as elite of a chaos warband....
You see, someone said the multiple codices are maybe no longer true

daedalus wrote:

Rbb wrote:Everybody is wanting plastic oblits, but what I really want is more than one viable choice in heavy support.

Non-CSM player here, but I see them occasionally. Having that been said, what's wrong with a shooty Defilier?

It takes up a heavy support slot, is huge but thinly armored and suffers from a poor balistic skill ( yes, even on a battlecannon bs 3 hurts ) without offering any real anti tank firepower.

I would certainly love to see some new noise marine stuff.

Would be pretty annoyed if they combined the CSM and Daemons though. Pretty sure they wont.

Eh. I'd rather Obliterators stay metal. I don't understand why so many people want plastic ones. They have no options anyway. There's no reason to make them plastic.

Plastic plague bearers sounds nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tacobake wrote:Obliterators:

1) Plastic
2) Lower points cost per model
3) Probably dump Havocs or move to Fast

/end rant

It's for the kids, see.

Oh god you are so misguided.

Seriously, if obliterators are your favorite part of the codex, I suggest you pick up another army. I have this feeling that... 80% of CSM players would drop them if obliterators were removed.

Xeriapt wrote:I would certainly love to see some new noise marine stuff.

Would be pretty annoyed if they combined the CSM and Daemons though. Pretty sure they wont.

why would you be annoyed? they were only separated so GW could try (and failed miserably) to make more money. sorry if it sounded as an attack, but i'm curious as to your reasoning because in all honesty daemons should be put back in to chaos marines

If none of the Daemon stuff was lost by combining books then it wouldnt be an issue, the assumption is that if the books were combined you would lose things from both daemons and CSM.

Either that or the book would just cost a heap more lol.

Harriticus wrote:I have 60 Forgeworld Cultists. Damn you GW if these ones look better.

I know how you feel

H.B.M.C. wrote:It better not be a "Take Special Character X to play Legion X" affair. Can you imagine all the Emperor's Children players out there who don't want to bring Lucius the Eternally Useless to every game?

I know you hate this kind of set up, but is there any recently updated codex that does it some other way?

I'd just like to see "Legionaries" as a highly mutable troop choice. Beyond that, it really can simply be a self regulated sense of characterization.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:I would certainly love to see some new noise marine stuff.

Would be pretty annoyed if they combined the CSM and Daemons though. Pretty sure they wont.

why would you be annoyed? they were only separated so GW could try (and failed miserably) to make more money. sorry if it sounded as an attack, but i'm curious as to your reasoning because in all honesty daemons should be put back in to chaos marines

They should only put Daemons back into the CSM codex if I can still play my all Daemons army. If not, then a subset of their customerbase will be even more annoyed than usual. In effect, combining the two without allowing for all-daemon armies (hopefully not via the "take X special character" route) would squat Daemons.

That is the main reason why it is highly doubtful that they would re-combine them.

And I get that YOU (and a lot of other people, I'm sure) believe that Daemons and CSM should be put back in the same book, but that is your OPINION, and stating that as fact tends to come across as combative. /

Anyone who thinks GW will invalidate a codex again is being foolish. Demons will stay seperate, Word Bearer players will continue to cry.

odorofdeath wrote:Anyone who thinks GW will invalidate a codex again is being foolish. Demons will stay seperate, Word Bearer players will continue to cry.

I agree. I don't even care about the major lesser daemons. Personally, I would just be happy with furies as a FA choice. It's not like we have any other worthwhile choices

Samus_aran115 wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Anyone who thinks GW will invalidate a codex again is being foolish. Demons will stay seperate, Word Bearer players will continue to cry.

I agree. I don't even care about the major lesser daemons. Personally, I would just be happy with furies as a FA choice. It's not like we have any other worthwhile choices

LOL. Your poor FA...

I do have to agree with the general sentiment everyone has...boring daemons are boring...I don't care that I can use whatever model I want to represent them, I don't want my Daemons to be bloodletters - FC - PW.

VermGho5t wrote:Wow, this actually, has me excited about my army now. Glad they will be doing a plastic Dread, was about to go in for a FW Contemptor to convert up.

Even so, I'd wait on that Contemptor. Forgeworld will be releasing a Chaos one.

IF the CSM and daemon books are combined, and I consider this a big if, then more than likely Daemons will play similar to drop pods. Half your daemon units come in on first turn and the other half are in reserve.

ThatEdGuy wrote:IF the CSM and daemon books are combined, and I consider this a big if, then more than likely Daemons will play similar to drop pods. Half your daemon units come in on first turn and the other half are in reserve.

So like Daemons now.

odorofdeath wrote:Anyone who thinks GW will invalidate a codex again is being foolish. Demons will stay seperate,

100% correct.

So back to real CSM rumors. So far we know the following are getting plastic kits:

Dreadnought
Raptors

And we can reasonably expect Havocs to go plastic, as GW is removing all metal/plastic hybrid kits. This also means Rubric Marines and Noise Marines should be redone as well.

That would give us the following in plastic:

Dreadnought
Raptors
Havocs
Noise Marines
Thousand Sons

If there is any justice in this world, we should get new plastics for Berserkers , and plastic Obliterators. However, knowing the plastic metal kits will have to be addressed, and the availability of nice Berserker and Plague Marine kits from FW, I don't see berserkers as a huge priority for 1st wave updates. Sadly, as others have speculated, Obliterators fit the mold(no pun intended) for a finecast update. I really hope I'm wrong on that, though.

I don't see Berserkers getting updated before most other models. Aside from the gorilla hands they still hold up very well.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It better not be a "Take Special Character X to play Legion X" affair. Can you imagine all the Emperor's Children players out there who don't want to bring Lucius the Eternally Useless to every game?

I have to agree. Am I the only one out there that wants to make my own friggin' character? Designed the way I want out of a huge list of options? Bland as it may be, I've defended our most recent codex and still manage to win games with it, and even find a way to make my various legions somewhat fluffy, but the last thing I want to see is a huge list of named characters, that change the way the army plays, and you'd be almost stupid not to use. I mean, I use Vulkan in my marine list, because it seems stupid not to twin-link a bunch of weapons, but I hate doing it.

Anyone else feel this way?

Bold or Stupid wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:*looks at Hell Talon and Hell Blade*

Yeah, not nearly spiky or skully enough. I think we'll instead see the Skullspike Fighter, which will be a flying stylised skull covered in highly aerodynamic spikes. The kit will also allow you to make the Spikeskull Assault Craft, a transport/bomber. Both will come equipped with Bloodspike Rockets or Hellskull Bombs.

I'm with you here and it could look like this!

I used to own one of those as a kid. Think I might have the skull bit somewhere abouts.


As to the rumours, they sound very interesting. Any new plastics will be good in my book right now, it seems ages since we had anything of worth show up for CSM.

Well I just hope they don't go down the route of box of plastic for the 4 powers and one for the undivided legions, would be ace if they did a box for each
traitor legion or atleast made it so some of the undivided legions had some character from their legion, rather then here a box of CSM with tag of generic
on them.

Nerf wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:It better not be a "Take Special Character X to play Legion X" affair. Can you imagine all the Emperor's Children players out there who don't want to bring Lucius the Eternally Useless to every game?

I have to agree. Am I the only one out there that wants to make my own friggin' character? Designed the way I want out of a huge list of options? Bland as it may be, I've defended our most recent codex and still manage to win games with it, and even find a way to make my various legions somewhat fluffy, but the last thing I want to see is a huge list of named characters, that change the way the army plays, and you'd be almost stupid not to use. I mean, I use Vulkan in my marine list, because it seems stupid not to twin-link a bunch of weapons, but I hate doing it.

Anyone else feel this way?

This is entirely my opinion, so don't take as rumors or any such nonsense: I think you'll still be able to field a Lord/Sorc/Prince or w/e with a mark to unlock the cult marines. The difference between Chaos and Loyalist marines is that Loyalists don't get marks, but Chaos does-these marks on HQs should be the unlocking factor, or else the army is seriously limited. Special character marines don't unlock troops as different things, they allow special rules to accompany models you can already play in the vanilla book. Yes, offshoot marine books (SW, GK, BA, DA) allow units to jump to troops, but the mistake is assuming Chaos will be treated as a Space Marine offshoot, not treated as the antithesis of the Space Marine book. Just my thoughts.

Xeriapt wrote:If none of the Daemon stuff was lost by combining books then it wouldnt be an issue, the assumption is that if the books were combined you would lose things from both daemons and CSM.

Either that or the book would just cost a heap more lol.

Exactly. I LOOOOOOOOOOOVE my daemons, they better not kill them :(

Bold or Stupid wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:*looks at Hell Talon and Hell Blade*

Yeah, not nearly spiky or skully enough. I think we'll instead see the Skullspike Fighter, which will be a flying stylised skull covered in highly aerodynamic spikes. The kit will also allow you to make the Spikeskull Assault Craft, a transport/bomber. Both will come equipped with Bloodspike Rockets or Hellskull Bombs.

I'm with you here and it could look like this!

Where's that from?
The pilot looks a bit like a Brotherhood of Nod trooper

H.B.M.C. wrote:It better not be a "Take Special Character X to play Legion X" affair. Can you imagine all the Emperor's Children players out there who don't want to bring Lucius the Eternally Useless to every game?

I happen to like Lucius, though why he's listed as having artificer armor in the fluff (same with kharn) And not having it in the profile..Yet they've YET to fix that... Codex author and FAQ writers.

But I'd like the third edition style of Lord/Sorcerer + Marks = Troops.

What I would like is for berserkers to actually be the most unit devastating in CC (like in the fluff), and not take 2nd place to blood angels.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Bold or Stupid wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:*looks at Hell Talon and Hell Blade*

Yeah, not nearly spiky or skully enough. I think we'll instead see the Skullspike Fighter, which will be a flying stylised skull covered in highly aerodynamic spikes. The kit will also allow you to make the Spikeskull Assault Craft, a transport/bomber. Both will come equipped with Bloodspike Rockets or Hellskull Bombs.

I'm with you here and it could look like this!

Where's that from?
The pilot looks a bit like a Brotherhood of Nod trooper

Action Force, basically the British GI Joe.

Yeah, but only in the first incantation. They where the Red Shadows under Baron Ironblood, v's normal armed forces. So SAS, Marines etc.

That was the poorly named Roboskull, and had a pilot called Red Wolf.

At some point in the early eighties, Hasbro decided to mash what was GI Joe and Action Force together. So we got all the GI Joe figures, but with an actual international flavour, so although there where lots of Americans, at least a third where from other countries.

Ironblood became Cobra Commander, and Cobra took over as the baddies.

Was quite disapointed when I discovered in america GI Joe where all US folks, seemed a more interesting idea of an international task force.

When I was a kid I always wanted one of those roboskull things but never had any action force stuff

Rumours look good... but hadn't we had a rumour that said we'd be getting the lesser gods deamons back as troop choices in the new dex? It would make sense to me tbh.. same as All astartes chapters get the similar kit out why not let chaos share some daemons? I can understand the justification to keep GD's removed.

I'd despise having army kit outs based around SC's.. it takes so much away from the game basing it around SC's like it is atm. Part of the narritive I grew up playing was making my own generals and army leaders/heroes and villains with my own rule load outs from the codex's.. but IT WILL happen. It happens now with Necrons, other Space Marine chapters.. I havn't played an army in three years that doesn't have a special character in other than Tyranids.

It's depressing!

Personnaly i don't mind SC's who change an Army, now i can see that for some peoples this is an issue, because their favorite Legion got stuck with Useless/Boring/whatevring Char and they don't like them.

BUT, if GW could be smart about it( and thats a big BUT!), in place of having to force the SC to change the army, give the SC's the "Lord of XXX Legion" option, and this option would also be an option for Lords/Dp's.

Once you have this "Lord of XXX Legion" option ,you then can play the Legion you like, without to be forced to be with a Char you don't like.

Well for me i stick with Kharn anyways, but for other army's and people that might work.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Nerf wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:It better not be a "Take Special Character X to play Legion X" affair. Can you imagine all the Emperor's Children players out there who don't want to bring Lucius the Eternally Useless to every game?

I have to agree. Am I the only one out there that wants to make my own friggin' character? Designed the way I want out of a huge list of options? Bland as it may be, I've defended our most recent codex and still manage to win games with it, and even find a way to make my various legions somewhat fluffy, but the last thing I want to see is a huge list of named characters, that change the way the army plays, and you'd be almost stupid not to use. I mean, I use Vulkan in my marine list, because it seems stupid not to twin-link a bunch of weapons, but I hate doing it.

Anyone else feel this way?

This is entirely my opinion, so don't take as rumors or any such nonsense: I think you'll still be able to field a Lord/Sorc/Prince or w/e with a mark to unlock the cult marines. The difference between Chaos and Loyalist marines is that Loyalists don't get marks, but Chaos does-these marks on HQs should be the unlocking factor, or else the army is seriously limited. Special character marines don't unlock troops as different things, they allow special rules to accompany models you can already play in the vanilla book. Yes, offshoot marine books (SW, GK, BA, DA) allow units to jump to troops, but the mistake is assuming Chaos will be treated as a Space Marine offshoot, not treated as the antithesis of the Space Marine book. Just my thoughts.

Their was talk of lesser chaos deities being expanded upon in the new book. If that's the route they go, you might be able to buy "The mark of the Iron Warrioirs" or "Mark of the Nightlords" to unlocks thows variants.

But sadly that might make to much scene.
XD

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Yeah, but only in the first incantation. They where the Red Shadows under Baron Ironblood, v's normal armed forces. So SAS, Marines etc.
...
Ironblood became Cobra Commander, and Cobra took over as the baddies.

A few years ago the Red Shadows reappeared in the GI Joe verse thanks to the comics. They killed Serpentor and Lady Jaye while trying to destroy both Cobra and GI Joe. I wish someone would release the old Action Force comics, they were great.

Anyway... back on topic. All this talk of Chaos is starting my "New Year/Edition, New Army" itch... dammit! Even if it is all false, it can't get any worse than the current edition, can it?

A few years ago the Red Shadows reappeared in the GI Joe verse thanks to the comics. They killed Serpentor and Lady Jaye while trying to destroy both Cobra and GI Joe. I wish someone would release the old Action Force comics, they were great.

Can I recommend http://bloodforthebaron.com/comics/baf/index.html

I have only just seen this. Please say its all true, as it's long, long, long overdue.

odorofdeath wrote:Anyone who thinks GW will invalidate a codex again is being foolish. Demons will stay seperate, Word Bearer players will continue to cry.

Tell that to black templar players who just got dropped....

Red Corsair wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:Anyone who thinks GW will invalidate a codex again is being foolish. Demons will stay seperate, Word Bearer players will continue to cry.

Tell that to black templar players who just got dropped....

We didn't get dropped, we just aren't in the update arena at the moment. And we still have a lot of goodies, that may get even more powerful in 6th. Preferred enemy for all initiates rumored in 6th? Why, I believe that includes vehicles as they are crewed by initiates. We can also customize our ICs better than anyone else, with everything at an equal/better price (just our transports are over-expensive, plus grenades). I'd say we're okay, if just a bit stale at the moment.

Also, can't wait for plastic Noise Marines and being able to field a fully Slaanesh army that's competitive!!

Yea except they will most likely get a gak dwarf update, which after seeing those poor space nuns get reared feels like a drop.

Red Corsair wrote:Yea except they will most likely get a gak dwarf update, which after seeing those poor space nuns get reared feels like a drop.

Except, you know, Chaos is an army that actually sells. Your GW hate is strong, young one.

Red Corsair wrote:Yea except they will most likely get a gak dwarf update, which after seeing those poor space nuns get reared feels like a drop.

Because thats exactly what happened with Blood Angels right?

The last "army" that really got dropped were the things from chapter approved, thats was like 8 years ago

Crayola wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:Yea except they will most likely get a gak dwarf update, which after seeing those poor space nuns get reared feels like a drop.

Except, you know, Chaos is an army that actually sells. Your GW hate is strong, young one.

I think he meant BT, not Chaos. Well, if they get a WD codex, I'll pick it up, see if I like it, and if I don't, I won't acknowledge its existence

I'd like to see a fast attack choice that is actually worthwhile.

Librarian Dreadnoughts, anyone?

"- the book is done and almost at the printers "

Does this mean it will be the next released codex, or are we going to have to wait until after Dark Angels?

Any speculation on a release date?


P.S. = A lot of you folks are muddying the waters by bringing in rumors Ghost21 released. Do your homework; all of his stuff can be considered bogus at this point.


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H.B.M.C. wrote:*looks at Hell Talon and Hell Blade*

Yeah, not nearly spiky or skully enough. I think we'll instead see the Skullspike Fighter, which will be a flying stylised skull covered in highly aerodynamic spikes. The kit will also allow you to make the Spikeskull Assault Craft, a transport/bomber. Both will come equipped with Bloodspike Rockets or Hellskull Bombs.

Can you lay off the skull comments with every other post? It is getting old.

Agree with the above. I think Ghost was the one saying we'd see a plastic dreadnought and raptors.

We're getting a plastic dreadnought in the starter box. That doesn't mean we'll actually get a plastic KIT.

Raptors were just done in finecast. Would be a terrible move to make new ones in plastic. Those molds still have some life in them (despite being horrid models).

Plastic Havocs seem unlikely as well. No one uses them, and GW knows that. Why waste time on new plastics? Might as well make then finecrap.

Berserkers are a plastic kit. Nuff said. GW won't replace them just because of their gorilla hands.

I wouldn't say GW is trying to eliminate plastic metal hybrid kits either.

Kairos wrote:Can you lay off the skull comments with every other post? It is getting old.

Others seemed to find it funny. Can you generate/install a sense of humour? Kthnxbye!

You would think then that if havoks are the current crap choice they will be stronger in the next codex so that people buy those instead of keeping all the oblits theyve already bought and not spending more money on new shinies.

Samus_aran115 wrote:We're getting a plastic dreadnought in the starter box. That doesn't mean we'll actually get a plastic KIT.

Which would be a tremendous wasted opportunity. Marines have 4 plastic Dread kits. Surely Chaos can have one. Plus the Chaos Dread hasn’t gone Finecost, so there’s a chance that’s because they’re doing a plastic one and there’s no reason to switch mediums.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Raptors were just done in finecast. Would be a terrible move to make new ones in plastic. Those molds still have some life in them (despite being horrid models).

Really? A ‘terrible move’? Hyperbole much. The Raptor models are three editions old, and a replacement given what they can do with plastics (look at the Scourges) would be a good idea, especially if they can do what they’ve been doing recently and making it a two-units-in-one box, so Raptors and [something else].

Samus_aran115 wrote:Plastic Havocs seem unlikely as well. No one uses them, and GW knows that. Why waste time on new plastics? Might as well make then finecrap.

False dilemma. False reasoning.

No one uses them now in the current rules. That doesn’t mean that that won’t change in the new rules. You cannot base model releases on current rules because the current rules are meaningless when we’re discussing a new book. Moreover, GW does not want hybrids, therefore plastic Havocs are a great idea.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I wouldn't say GW is trying to eliminate plastic metal hybrid kits either.

Why?

Samus_aran115 wrote:Agree with the above. I think Ghost was the one saying we'd see a plastic dreadnought and raptors.

We're getting a plastic dreadnought in the starter box. That doesn't mean we'll actually get a plastic KIT.

Raptors were just done in finecast. Would be a terrible move to make new ones in plastic. Those molds still have some life in them (despite being horrid models).

Plastic Havocs seem unlikely as well. No one uses them, and GW knows that. Why waste time on new plastics? Might as well make then finecrap.

Berserkers are a plastic kit. Nuff said. GW won't replace them just because of their gorilla hands.

I wouldn't say GW is trying to eliminate plastic metal hybrid kits either.

Why do you think GW isn't trying to eliminate hybrid kits? Name one hybrid kit that's been released in the last three years.

Hastings said plastic Raptors too, IIRC, which would actually be legit. HBMC has a point in that the lack of a Finecast Chaos Dreadnought points towards a new kit.

Havocs will get made better, new kit will be sold. Makes perfect sense. Devastators weren't exactly in every army list when the DA codex came out, but GW made a plastic kit for them too.

The only point I agree with you on at all is that GW won't do new Berserkers since they have a serviceable (if flawed) plastic kit.

black templar will be next. if there is a codex release every 3 month then you might get tau seanking in before black templar.

However, the chances are low so I can say 90% sure black templar is next.

definatly not chaos.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

1hadhq wrote:To show their ongoing support of finecast products ?
Oblits are groups of 3, right? Thus finecast isn't bad if other more numerous choices are plastic...

Well... I dunno about you, but I am sensing a theme here.

Plastic Oblits seems likely to me.

Is it bad that I clicked on every link to be sure? :/

Marthike wrote:black templar will be next. if there is a codex release every 3 month then you might get tau seanking in before black templar.

However, the chances are low so I can say 90% sure black templar is next.

definatly not chaos.

Proof? Where are you getting this info from?

Also, at Brother SRM's post: I like the current Berzerkers...I think they're a fun kit. I've purchased 30 models for them

Samus_aran115 wrote:Agree with the above. I think Ghost was the one saying we'd see a plastic dreadnought and raptors.

We're getting a plastic dreadnought in the starter box. That doesn't mean we'll actually get a plastic KIT.

Raptors were just done in finecast. Would be a terrible move to make new ones in plastic. Those molds still have some life in them (despite being horrid models).

Plastic Havocs seem unlikely as well. No one uses them, and GW knows that. Why waste time on new plastics? Might as well make then finecrap.

Berserkers are a plastic kit. Nuff said. GW won't replace them just because of their gorilla hands.

I wouldn't say GW is trying to eliminate plastic metal hybrid kits either.

By your logic, SM dread in Black Reach means no regular SM dreadnought. Or like in reality there's Standard, Venerable, Ironclad and Furioso versions. I'm not saying we'll see 4 different dreadnoughts for Chaos, but one multi-pose and a starter set version isn't unreasonable.

Hastings confirmed plastic raptors. Do your research before purporting to know which rumors are valid and which aren't.

As for Havocs, GW has not let a single kit remain a plastic/metal hybrid for many, many releases. They don't convert plastic/metal hybrids to finecast either, only solid metal models. Havocs aren't used, like many other entries in the Chaos codex because they are worthless due to outdated point costs and rules from a sorely aging book. That is an issue with the codex being a pile of crap, that doesn't mean units won't be made more efficient in the new book.

Berserkers will most likely stay as is, but GW will replace whatever unit they think will sell, and if the new rules make Berserkers a monster CC unit, I could see them putting out a new kit to sell more models. I don't expect it but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility.

GW are, most definitely making a very concerted effort to eliminate plastic/metal hybrid kits. It is, in fact, a stated goal.

timetowaste85 wrote:
Also, at Brother SRM's post: I like the current Berzerkers...I think they're a fun kit. I've purchased 30 models for them

Hey, I dig em! I even painted some in December! They're just a fairly dated kit, with the goofy hands, which is kind of curious since they came out after the modern Space Marines who have hands that look pretty damn good.

Marthike wrote:black templar will be next. if there is a codex release every 3 month then you might get tau seanking in before black templar.

However, the chances are low so I can say 90% sure black templar is next.

definatly not chaos.

No, they aren't. They are not even on the horizon. Ghost21 fed people a line of BS, and that was spread around until it became fact to some. Harry and Hastings have stated, with great assurance that BT are a good ways off. Their word may as well be the official word of GW, since we can't be granted that from GW themselves.

In any event, this is a Chaos rumors thread, and I'm 90% sure discussing BT here is off topic and should be discussed elsewhere.

LazzurusMan wrote:Is it bad that I clicked on every link to be sure? :/

I'm actually glad you did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

timetowaste85 wrote:Also, at Brother SRM's post: I like the current Berzerkers...I think they're a fun kit. I've purchased 30 models for them

Plus they're like fries - they sorta come with everything. Nearly every Chaos box since their inception has come with 8-12 Berzerkers. I've got dozens of them, and not always by choice. As I said, they're just sorta always there.

I just want Noise Marines that don't constantly fall on their faces. Having a huge chunk of metal on the front of a plastic model 2/3rds the way up was not a good idea.

Marthike wrote:black templar will be next. if there is a codex release every 3 month then you might get tau seanking in before black templar.

However, the chances are low so I can say 90% sure black templar is next.

definatly not chaos.

Can you site your source? Looking at the White Dwarf spine, I would say Dark Angels are next.

Chaos has to be very soon. It is one of the largest selling armies, and a large portion of the current player base is disgruntled with the current book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kairos wrote:Can you lay off the skull comments with every other post? It is getting old.

Others seemed to find it funny. Can you generate/install a sense of humour? Kthnxbye!

It was okay the first or second time. Every time I open a thread that has you posting in it, there is inevitably a comment about too many skulls.

Okay, we get the point. Let's now think of something constructive to post.

Cadaver wrote:By your logic, SM dread in Black Reach means no regular SM dreadnought. Or like in reality there's Standard, Venerable, Ironclad and Furioso versions. I'm not saying we'll see 4 different dreadnoughts for Chaos, but one multi-pose and a starter set version isn't unreasonable.

However, none of the dreadnoughts have the 'default' Multimelta option. Only the AoBR dread has that. Which means at the very least we can probably expect the Chaos dread to get hosed for the most useful option as that'll probably be in the new starter box.

They don't convert plastic/metal hybrids to finecast either, only solid metal models.

Mr. Hive Tyrant would like a word with you. He's currently the only Finecast-plastic hybrid alive as tyranids have always followed an odd pattern of plastic options for metal critters.

I just want my chain Axe's back that is all.

DarkStarSabre wrote:However, none of the dreadnoughts have the 'default' Multimelta option. Only the AoBR dread has that. Which means at the very least we can probably expect the Chaos dread to get hosed for the most useful option as that'll probably be in the new starter box.

I hardly think that much thought went into what the Dread was armed with.

I think gw will cut the cost of heavy weapons on havocs down to long fang/ba prices because they are rarely used.

I also think they will do a new plastic kit, and then srew us by inclusing 1 of each hb, ac, ml, and LC in a 5 or 10 man kit.

I'm hoping what happens with havocs will be part of a more comprehensive rethinking of how Chaos should play and how their concept should translate to the tabletop. All armies are afflicted by rules not living upto fluff, Chaos the rules fail to even hint at the concept. Whether Chaos are 10,000 year old warriors or Rengade ex-loyalists turned pirates... the rules don't show either.

If GW does legionaries, they need to be elite on a level similar to the SW army. If they empahsize Renegade they have to have enough variety to represent the struggles of being without a major support infrastructure and acquiring and maintaining whatever you can.

aka_mythos wrote:. Whether Chaos are 10,000 year old warriors or Rengade ex-loyalists turned pirates... the rules don't show either.

Instead they are currently struggling renegades equipped with archaic legion equipment.

Which seriously had me asking how that worked. I wonder if every chapter has Reaper Autocannons, combi-weapons etc. locked away in the back of the armoury with the words 'In Case of Heresy, Break Glass'.

Yes... reaper autocannons are kept behind glass marked "In case of heresy, break glass." It would be easy enough for GW to explain how the Chaos Legions interact with the Chaos Renegades... with the simple logical explanation that the Chaos Legions and Chaos Renegades interact with legions providing certain logistical support... like Soviet Russia's willingness to disceminate small arms and training to communist revolutionaries.

God specific terminators would be awesome, none of this icon nonsense, especially Plague Terminators. Do it, GW. Dooo eeeet.

As nice as it would be, it doesn't make practical sense. Would you have a single new Terminator kit that has all the Legion (or, for sake of argument, the main four) in the same box? That's a lot of left-over bits. I really don't think GW would waste their time on a single sprue like that.

And I don't think they'd make four more sets of Chaos Terminators to go with the one they've already got.

Medium of Death wrote:God specific terminators would be awesome, none of this icon nonsense, especially Plague Terminators. Do it, GW. Dooo eeeet.

I'd be apprehensive of that. Is anything really accomplished by having your elite section look like this?:

ELITE:
Obliterators
Khorne Terminators
Slannesh Terminators
Nurgle Terminators
Tzeentch Terminators
Chosen
Chosen Terminators
Possessed

You have an Elite section with 5 or 6 different units that are effectively terminators, and play very similarly. That's a level of redundancy that I can live without especially when it carries the implicit fact that those 4 units are at the expense of something more universally useable. It then begs the question, if terminators get this kind of split representation than how about Havocs and bikes?

Is the way to solve Chaos' lack of worthwhile and distinctive unit choices to simply make duplicates of those same units?-I don't think so, at that point you're just playing the odds that one of them will be a little more worthwhile than the rest.

Ninja'd.

Well, in my mind, they wouldn't be four different options. It be just Terminators, but each member of the squad can get a mark of a specific god (each mark has to be the same obviously, and they all need to take it.)

Rumours pointing to Obliterators as Elites?

@HBMC
I don't think they'd do kits either. Rules would be enough for me, personally. I think the current terminator kits can be fairly easily converted to represent four different gods with existing GW bits.

I'd probably opt for oodles of these though.


Edited for clarity.

H.B.M.C. wrote:As nice as it would be, it doesn't make practical sense. Would you have a single new Terminator kit that has all the Legion (or, for sake of argument, the main four) in the same box? That's a lot of left-over bits. I really don't think GW would waste their time on a single sprue like that.

And I don't think they'd make four more sets of Chaos Terminators to go with the one they've already got.

Well with their current trend of 2 units in a box I could see it happening, I mean I had a ton of bits leftover from the grey knight boxes and such.

But with god specific terminators you're now talking about 5 units in a box. Relying on FW's pre-existing kits is probably fair enough.

Medium of Death wrote:Ninja'd.
Well, in my mind, they wouldn't be four different options. It be just Terminators, but each member of the squad can get a mark of a specific god (each mark has to be the same obviously, and they all need to take it.)

How is a "mark" any different from an "icon"? It seems like its just meant as a change in nomenclature for the sake of avoiding confussion with the previous edition. Kinda like the IG codex going from "hot-shot lasguns" to "hellguns" back to "hot-shot lasguns" for no other reason that to allow the rules to be different than the imediately preceeding edition.

aka_mythos wrote:But with god specific terminators you're now talking about 5 units in a box. Relying on FW's pre-existing kits is probably fair enough.

Medium of Death wrote:Ninja'd.
Well, in my mind, they wouldn't be four different options. It be just Terminators, but each member of the squad can get a mark of a specific god (each mark has to be the same obviously, and they all need to take it.)

How is a "mark" any different from an "icon"? It seems like its just meant as a change in nomenclature for the sake of avoiding confussion with the previous edition. Kinda like the IG codex going from "hot-shot lasguns" to "hellguns" back to "hot-shot lasguns" for no other reason that to allow the rules to be different than the imediately preceeding edition.

Because Icons is a specific troop within the unit, if said icon bearer dies the entire unit loses it. A mark means that there's no ICON BEARER, meaning a stray shot can't murder your entire worship and force you to lose 40 points worth of mark on everyone, also gives the benefit that a Vindicator or that ultramarine's sniper won't ruin your day entirely.

I'd be apprehensive of that. Is anything really accomplished by having your elite section look like this?:

ELITE:
Obliterators
Khorne Terminators
Slannesh Terminators
Nurgle Terminators
Tzeentch Terminators
Chosen
Chosen Terminators
Possessed

It'd probably just be a single option, rather like this

Chaos Terminators:

Take Slaanesh Mark
Gain Slaanesh rules

I mean it's really the same for chaos troops now. Except it's a little more comprehensive about telling about the troops.

Troops are basically

Chaos Space marine
Dedicated God marine (Insert four gods here)

It could work the same way except

Chaos Space Marine
Take Nurgle mark
Gain Plague Marine rules

Like how the Empire codex for fantasy lists all of its state troops in one little section. As in seven to nine troops.

aka_mythos wrote:But with god specific terminators you're now talking about 5 units in a box. Relying on FW's pre-existing kits is probably fair enough.

Medium of Death wrote:Ninja'd.
Well, in my mind, they wouldn't be four different options. It be just Terminators, but each member of the squad can get a mark of a specific god (each mark has to be the same obviously, and they all need to take it.)

How is a "mark" any different from an "icon"? It seems like its just meant as a change in nomenclature for the sake of avoiding confussion with the previous edition. Kinda like the IG codex going from "hot-shot lasguns" to "hellguns" back to "hot-shot lasguns" for no other reason that to allow the rules to be different than the imediately preceeding edition.

Icons are stupid and useless right now because they're expensive sticks that get sniped and then the rest of the unit muddles about trying to remember which god they've just spent centuries or more worshiping!

Proper marks are badly needed - I hate when my termies suddenly forget they're supposed to be I5 just because the dude with the frilly stick drops it.

H.M.B.C. wrote:Which would be a tremendous wasted opportunity. Marines have 4 plastic Dread kits. Surely Chaos can have one. Plus the Chaos Dread hasn’t gone Finecost, so there’s a chance that’s because they’re doing a plastic one and there’s no reason to switch mediums.

I was going to say 5, but apparently Bjorn is a metal model.

Also, I don't know where you get the idea that the new Chaos transport will be a flying skull with aerodynamic spikes. When has GW ever made an aerodynamic flyer?

timetowaste85 wrote:

Marthike wrote:black templar will be next. if there is a codex release every 3 month then you might get tau seanking in before black templar.

However, the chances are low so I can say 90% sure black templar is next.

definatly not chaos.

Proof? Where are you getting this info from?

Also, at Brother SRM's post: I like the current Berzerkers...I think they're a fun kit. I've purchased 30 models for them

I have my sources

Marthike wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

Marthike wrote:black templar will be next. if there is a codex release every 3 month then you might get tau seanking in before black templar.

However, the chances are low so I can say 90% sure black templar is next.

definatly not chaos.

Proof? Where are you getting this info from?

Also, at Brother SRM's post: I like the current Berzerkers...I think they're a fun kit. I've purchased 30 models for them

I have my sources

If you are going to make a bold claim like this, we need more than "I have my sources".

Otherwise, this is just more Ghost21 double talk.

All current\leaked information at this point says Dark Angels are next, followed by 6th Edition, followed by Chaos Space Marines.

schadenfreude wrote:I think gw will cut the cost of heavy weapons on havocs down to long fang/ba prices because they are rarely used.

I also think they will do a new plastic kit, and then srew us by inclusing 1 of each hb, ac, ml, and LC in a 5 or 10 man kit.

It would probably be just like the Space Marine Devastator kit, which has a sundry mix of heavy weapons, with multiples of some and singles of some others.

aka_mythos wrote:I'm hoping what happens with havocs will be part of a more comprehensive rethinking of how Chaos should play and how their concept should translate to the tabletop. All armies are afflicted by rules not living upto fluff, Chaos the rules fail to even hint at the concept. Whether Chaos are 10,000 year old warriors or Rengade ex-loyalists turned pirates... the rules don't show either.

If GW does legionaries, they need to be elite on a level similar to the SW army. If they empahsize Renegade they have to have enough variety to represent the struggles of being without a major support infrastructure and acquiring and maintaining whatever you can.

I could see this working, as you suggest, along the lines of Wolf Guard. Introducing a "Legionnaire" stat line for models that can be taken as elite units or split off to lead units of 'lesser' Marines, representing individuals that had been created post-Heresy and therefore weren't as experienced/tough as those that date from that time. There is fluff precedent for Legions stealing geneseed and using it to replace losses, and could be quite workable on the tabletop.

God-specific Terminators? With upgrade sprues for each God? Come now people.

There will be Chosen Terminators.

You can give them Marks. Or Icons, whatever.

That is all. That is all there ever has been. That is all there ever will be. As much as I want my 2 Wound Terminators back, those days are over.

Havocs will probably be amazing, because presently they suck and are hard to find; this follows GW's business model.

Ditto for Dreadnoughts, Raptors, Land Raiders, Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children.

odorofdeath wrote:God-specific Terminators? With upgrade sprues for each God? Come now people.

Yes, because they wouldn't produce a god-specific sprue of Terminator components and never release it. Wait, they already did that.

Where is this madness?? I've never seen this around GWs website...

unless... Forgeworld?

odorofdeath wrote:Where is this madness?? I've never seen this around GWs website...

unless... Forgeworld?

This is the only set I can think of:


Those are mostly Slaanesh-based though. You wouldn't see them on the GW website because they're unreleased.

Unreleased. They cropped up at Games Day a few years back when the CSM stuff was released. I'll hunt a photo when not at work.

EDIT: Brother SRM has got it!

Nice! I stand corrected.

Lash whips for Slaanesh Termies, please!

straightsilver wrote:I do understand that there are some things in 40K that don't need to be expanded ad infinitum as your example proves.

However there is a big difference between Chaos Space Marines (Renegades) and Chaos Legionnaires, and this used to be represented in the Codex before last.

GW in their great wisdom (or rather Jervis and Alessio) decided that that particular Codex was way too complicated and as part of their over simplification drive took a chain axe to it and stripped out what was essentially all the best bits.

The intention was to seperate Renegades and Legionnaires and hopefully release a Legions Codex at a later date, as they have said in interviews since.

They realised immediately that the Chaos Space Marines Codex was massively over simplified and set to work straight away to begin planning the Legions Codex.

Chaos Space Marine Renegades are small roving war bands of Chaos Marines who have either spilt from their original Legion (Fabius Bile, Kharn, Ahriman etc), or are Loyalist marines disillusioned with the Imperium who have turned traitor (Huron Blackheart).

Over time they have picked up some influence from Chaos, but are made up of disparate bands of warriors.

Admittedly the curve ball is having Black Legion and Abaddon in the CSM Codex and I am not sure what will happen there.


The Legions however are those who took part in the Heresy and have been fighting the long war ever since.

These are not simple roving war bands engaging in hit and run raid across the Imperium, but the remnants of full Legions.

As an example Iron Warriors have access to artillery (usually Basilisks), Daemon Engines and Dark Mechanicus.

Alpha Legion have bands of cultists or the ability to infiltrate into society.

World Eaters have blood crazed Marines riding Juggernauts into battle.

etc, etc.

All of this used to be represented in the CSM Codex but was removed. The idea is to try to get this flavour back in one way or another.

Chaos players felt very hard done by with the last CSM Codex, they had these differences and they were taken away, what they were left with were closer to Renegades than Legionnaries.

Alessio and Jervis have both sad that they would like the CSM Codex to stay as Renegades, and to release another Codex which would address the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Emperor's Children etc.

I may of course be completely wrong, the next Codex might just be a rehash of the current one and replace it, but that's not what I have heard.

GW, y you no release upgrade sprue?

Is Straightsilver reliable?

I thought the two codex rumour was out the window?

Medium of Death wrote:GW, y you no release upgrade sprue?

Is Straightsilver reliable?

I thought the two codex rumour was out the window?

It wasn't all Ghost21 that stated that, there were actually about three to five people saying it.

Brother SRM wrote:
Those are mostly Slaanesh-based though. You wouldn't see them on the GW website because they're unreleased.

Actually, not so.

There was Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch in that layout. I remember looking at them all at Games Day - there's flaming Tzeentch weapons, Nurgle 'Typhus' racks, head and Nurgling and Slaanesh sonic weapons.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Those are mostly Slaanesh-based though. You wouldn't see them on the GW website because they're unreleased.

Actually, not so.

There was Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch in that layout. I remember looking at them all at Games Day - there's flaming Tzeentch weapons, Nurgle 'Typhus' racks, head and Nurgling and Slaanesh sonic weapons.

From the angle of the photo, I'm just calling it like I see it. I see the Nurgle chimneys but most other things are facing the wrong way. I just saw tentacles and a Slaanesh icon is all.

I think (pure wishlisting) that they could take a leaf out of the DE codex.

Have Regular Traitor Marines (all flavours, but Strawberry is best..)

And then have an elite choice using the same kit (or better, a kit of their own with Mk 1 or 2 armour..), as an elite slot. : Legion marines.

Much like the DE have Wyches and Kabalites, and also have Trueborn and Bloodbrides.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:I would certainly love to see some new noise marine stuff.

Would be pretty annoyed if they combined the CSM and Daemons though. Pretty sure they wont.

why would you be annoyed? they were only separated so GW could try (and failed miserably) to make more money. sorry if it sounded as an attack, but i'm curious as to your reasoning because in all honesty daemons should be put back in to chaos marines

As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

And in regards to Renegade and Legion books, so... whats going on there? Are we thinking two separate books (oh please yes, I want a purist Legion book and then the Renegades to become LatD) or is the new CSM book going to replace the old CSM book?

Ascalam wrote:I think (pure wishlisting) that they could take a leaf out of the DE codex.

Have Regular Traitor Marines (all flavours, but Strawberry is best..)

And then have an elite choice using the same kit (or better, a kit of their own with Mk 1 or 2 armour..), as an elite slot. : Legion marines.

Much like the DE have Wyches and Kabalites, and also have Trueborn and Bloodbrides.

So Chaos Marines and Chosen.

Kairos wrote:

Marthike wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

Marthike wrote:black templar will be next. if there is a codex release every 3 month then you might get tau seanking in before black templar.

However, the chances are low so I can say 90% sure black templar is next.

definatly not chaos.

Proof? Where are you getting this info from?

Also, at Brother SRM's post: I like the current Berzerkers...I think they're a fun kit. I've purchased 30 models for them

I have my sources

If you are going to make a bold claim like this, we need more than "I have my sources".

Otherwise, this is just more Ghost21 double talk.

All current\leaked information at this point says Dark Angels are next, followed by 6th Edition, followed by Chaos Space Marines.

What else do i say? #### told me who works in #### that knows #### so its reliable?

I have seen all the rumours and i have my opponion on all of them, not everything is Ghost21's info. Its up to you if you believe what i say anyway so believe what you like but I am backing black templar for next release unless, there is something comming next month, but I don;t think any 40k is getting released soon and chaos will be after the 6th ed i believe (this is my guess). However, before the 6th ed I do think black templar are next.

chaos0xomega wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:I would certainly love to see some new noise marine stuff.

Would be pretty annoyed if they combined the CSM and Daemons though. Pretty sure they wont.

why would you be annoyed? they were only separated so GW could try (and failed miserably) to make more money. sorry if it sounded as an attack, but i'm curious as to your reasoning because in all honesty daemons should be put back in to chaos marines

As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

And in regards to Renegade and Legion books, so... whats going on there? Are we thinking two separate books (oh please yes, I want a purist Legion book and then the Renegades to become LatD) or is the new CSM book going to replace the old CSM book?

As a Chaos space marine player and Chaos daemons player. I believe Fateweaver needs to be changed back to his original incarnation rather than his stupidly idiotic aura bubble. He's a powerful psyker that benefits himself and Tzeentch, Not every tom dick and harry beside him! At least fantasy has his current incarnation right.

As it is however, returning them back to their original form would be a blessing from the stars above. The chaos daemon book was horribly written, with points costs horribly done. (Crushers, Fiends, near everything else). And just not necessary, I'd rather have CSM/CD back together as they properly should.

azreal13 wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:I'm hoping what happens with havocs will be part of a more comprehensive rethinking of how Chaos should play and how their concept should translate to the tabletop. All armies are afflicted by rules not living upto fluff, Chaos the rules fail to even hint at the concept. Whether Chaos are 10,000 year old warriors or Rengade ex-loyalists turned pirates... the rules don't show either.

If GW does legionaries, they need to be elite on a level similar to the SW army. If they empahsize Renegade they have to have enough variety to represent the struggles of being without a major support infrastructure and acquiring and maintaining whatever you can.

I could see this working, as you suggest, along the lines of Wolf Guard. Introducing a "Legionnaire" stat line for models that can be taken as elite units or split off to lead units of 'lesser' Marines, representing individuals that had been created post-Heresy and therefore weren't as experienced/tough as those that date from that time. There is fluff precedent for Legions stealing geneseed and using it to replace losses, and could be quite workable on the tabletop.

The beauty of this method is it helps to simplify the volume of rules necessary to distinguish the legions. You have "Legionaries" and much like IG Stormtroopers you must choose one of 4 basic flavors. Then Legionarie status for the God specific cults can just be an upgrade for those respective cult units... ie Berzerkers of Khorne maybe upgraded to World Eater Berzerkers for x-pts or more genericly Berzerkers of Khorne maybe upgraded to Chosen of Khorne where Chosen of Khorne simply represent any legionary who worshipped khorne. It keeps the distinctions but makes them bite-sized enough not to require an appendicies on every Legion. That's important because it was that format of appendicies for each Legion that heavily contributed to what GW attributed as an over-complexity.

chaos0xomega wrote:As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

And in regards to Renegade and Legion books, so... whats going on there? Are we thinking two separate books (oh please yes, I want a purist Legion book and then the Renegades to become LatD) or is the new CSM book going to replace the old CSM book?

I agree. Once the "cat was out of the bag" there's no putting it back in. Pulling daemons out of the Chaos Space Marines books reduced the redundancies; we have 4 cult marines units and 4 daemon units, all similar to each other but slightly different and yet all suppose to be equally capable. Putting daemons in their own codex allowed CSM to get out from under the Daemon's shadow and much the same for Daemons to get out from under CSM's. This will allow them to inevitably distinguish themselves in ways that would never be possible with an all in one codex.

Legions separating from Renegades will help unclutter the concepts that fill the Chaos Space Marines' book. Legions can have more in the way of specialized and elite cult units as well as other distinguishing units and Rengades can easily see the inclusion of lesser mortals and traitors players have wanted since before Eye of Terror. Most Chaos players would end up re-building for one codex and inevitably using other models they have as a starting point for the other.

aka_mythos wrote:Is anything really accomplished by having your elite section look like this?:

ELITE:
Obliterators
Khorne Terminators
Slannesh Terminators
Nurgle Terminators
Tzeentch Terminators
Chosen
Chosen Terminators
Possessed

Not making me angry?

odorofdeath wrote:Havocs will probably be amazing, because presently they suck and are hard to find; this follows GW's business model.

Ditto for Dreadnoughts, Raptors, Land Raiders, Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children.

Thousands Sons will never be amazing. This follows GW's business model.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Is anything really accomplished by having your elite section look like this?:

ELITE:
Obliterators
Khorne Terminators
Slannesh Terminators
Nurgle Terminators
Tzeentch Terminators
Chosen
Chosen Terminators
Possessed

You have an Elite section with 5 or 6 different units that are effectively terminators, and play very similarly. That's a level of redundancy that I can live without especially when it carries the implicit fact that those 4 units are at the expense of something more universally useable. It then begs the question, if terminators get this kind of split representation than how about Havocs and bikes?

Is the way to solve Chaos' lack of worthwhile and distinctive unit choices to simply make duplicates of those same units?-I don't think so, at that point you're just playing the odds that one of them will be a little more worthwhile than the rest.

Not making me angry?

Looks like you left out the important part. Fixed it.

I hate when people bury their heads in the sand and ignore the obvious problems with what they want.

I want to see new units that help to bridge the gap between what Chaos is conceptually and Chaos is in the rules. Chaos will forever be this very narrow mix and match that is flavorless. You will never have something that really represents Chaos when you fill a book with nearly identical units that are used in such similar ways. A codex should be a book that lets you play a number of different ways, which is distinctly different than shoehorning in 5 codices in one. Having unique unit entries for each makes sense if you're printing multiple books to address each. In the context of one or two books centered around particular concepts its clutter that simply adds nothing to the characterization of each of the cults, while taking up resources that could.

Another way to put it, IF GW can only include 5 new units in an updated book, would you really want 4 of them to be terminator units? I'd rather see cult specific daemon engines or elites that aren't so similar... for example slannesh marines on bikes or Tzeentch sorcerer coven. Thats what you lose when you include 4 types of terminators.

It's quite possible to include god specific terminators within one entry, as was explained in posts on the previous page.

Sgt.Roadkill wrote:I don't want plastic oblits....... it would make them to common a choice and they SHOULD NOT BE. except possibly Iron warriors or possibly tzeentch armies.....

Thanks for taking it on yourself to determine what the meta should be.

Medium of Death wrote:It's quite possible to include god specific terminators within one entry, as was explained in posts on the previous page.

Yep.

To be honest one of the oldest ideas bounced about on all forums has been the idea of Greater and Lesser Marks to replace icons, where a Lesser Mark would replicate the Icon's effect (so, for Nurgle +1 Toughness) while the greater Mark replicates the 'cult' effects (i.e. on normal CSMs would make them T5, FNP, Fearless, -1 Initiative).

Sure, this is a step back toward the 3.5 codex. But to be honest the Icons, as have been pointed out are fairly hefty costing upgrades (particularly Nurgle and Tzeentch) that are far, far too vulnerable to the wound allocation and sniper effects and powers that have come about since. Plus they certainly don't allow you to make 'Cult' armies - at least not ones that make any sort of sense (Plague Terminators not being Fearless and suddenly losing the +1 toughness because a guy dropped a stick? Really?).

We wouldn't need a whole slew of seperate unit entries - if anything it would reduce the existing number of entries (Berserkers, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons and Plague Marines ceasing to be seperate) allowing for the Traitors, Mutants and Cultist options that people are hoping for.

The Icon system was by far one of the most idiotic things they've done. There's just never been an existing case where a unit loses an upgrade that has been purchased for it - the previous CSM codexes had 'Marks' and every other army either has their equivalents built in as army wide rules or through purchasing. SMs don't lose ASKNF or Combat Tactics because a Chapter Master gets killed, Tyranids don't lose the scything talon rerolls because a single model dies and yet currently CSMs -can-. Where it's from a specific item of wargear that you pay for for a single model in a squad, fair enough but the CSM mark system has always been treated as a whole squad upgrade.

Another way to put it, IF GW can only include 5 new units in an updated book, would you really want 4 of them to be terminator units? I'd rather see cult specific daemon engines or elites that aren't so similar... for example slannesh marines on bikes or Tzeentch sorcerer coven. Thats what you lose when you include 4 types of terminators.

Yes because It makes SENSE to have different things representing different things, rather than the very simple

Take Chaos Bikers
Add Mark
Gain God rules

Yes because it really makes SENSE to stick chaos with

HQ: Undivided Chaos Lord, Daemon prince of Khorne, Nurgle sorcerer.
Elites: Sorcerer coven
Troops: Khorne Bezerkers
Fast: Slaanesh Bikers
Heavy: Plague marines

Just cut out everything else! No nurgle/slaanesh/tzeentch anywhere else in the troop choice, just move it down to just bezerkers! No more nurgle bikers either, just have Slaanesh only! Cult specific Daemon engines? Pfft, We'll just give them Khorne engines of destruction. More undivided!


It'd be like giving up nearly all the aspects from the Eldar book in return for more wraithbone weaponry/walkers.

You don’t need units for each type of God-specific troop type. Universal Mark rules (rather than that silly Icon shenanigans) are really simple:

Mark of Khorne does W.
Mark of Slaanesh does X.
Mark of Nurgle does Y.
Mark of Tzeentch does Z.

Scale costs depending on unit (IC’s, squads, etc.). Same rules for all.

Honestly I think the legions book is going to be quite simple, one entry for each major unit type (terminators, marines, raptors, havocs, bikers, dreadnoughts etc.) and then you can buy one of 8 "legionary affiliations" for them at +x points (on a per model/per unit basis?). The legionary affiliations come with statline modifications, special rules, and unique wargear options, no doubt it will be a 1-2 page entry each but whatever. In addition to this, I'm sure there will be numerous legion/god specific "special" units incorporated into the book (for example the afore-rumored World Eaters Chrono-Gladiators or what-have-you. Then of course there will be special characters that will no doubt alter force org (for example, night lords character that makes raptors troops?) Simple, avoids tons of extra pages for largely similar/redundant entries. Perhaps the "Big Four" (World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Emperors Children, Death Guard) are JUST different enough to warrant their own separate entries in elites/troops/fast/heavy but certainly the 4 undivided legions will be similar enough to share a common entry with different modifications, etc.

Really, the idea of marks in the legions book kinda doesn't make sense. Its quite clear where the devotions of each of the legions (barring perhaps black legion and the word bearers who are a bit more variable) lies, the idea of someone fielding an army of thousand sons with the mark of khorne because it happens to be the power-build of choice makes me want to punch someone.

Agreed marks are really more a matter of distinction for Renegades. Any Legionaries who follow Khorne would simply be so similar to World Eater rules wise those rules could be used to represent them.

Nerf wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:It better not be a "Take Special Character X to play Legion X" affair. Can you imagine all the Emperor's Children players out there who don't want to bring Lucius the Eternally Useless to every game?

I have to agree. Am I the only one out there that wants to make my own friggin' character? Designed the way I want out of a huge list of options? Bland as it may be, I've defended our most recent codex and still manage to win games with it, and even find a way to make my various legions somewhat fluffy, but the last thing I want to see is a huge list of named characters, that change the way the army plays, and you'd be almost stupid not to use. I mean, I use Vulkan in my marine list, because it seems stupid not to twin-link a bunch of weapons, but I hate doing it.

Anyone else feel this way?

*raises hand* Yeah I miss my daemon prince actually being downright deadly, with the dreadaxe tearing through anything and everything. ^-^ But yeah more options to build a cool unique character would be nice.

As far as SC goes, I'd like to see them outlawed altogether like they once were, or how it used to x SC can only be taken in x army of x amount of points and with your opponents permission. The game had more flavor and was just better back then.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:What I would like is for berserkers to actually be the most unit devastating in CC (like in the fluff), and not take 2nd place to blood angels.

Berserkers should be equal to Death Company, but Berserkers presence should able to channel the summoning of Khorne related daemons....that is all.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Plus they're like fries - they sorta come with everything. Nearly every Chaos box since their inception has come with 8-12 Berzerkers. I've got dozens of them, and not always by choice. As I said, they're just sorta always there.

Well if don't want em' and want to toss them to certain Chaos player's way...

Kairos wrote: Chaos has to be very soon. It is one of the largest selling armies, and a large portion of the current player base is disgruntled with the current book.

Not just disgruntled, but insulted by the bland simplisticness of it, with all flavor taken out, specific daemons and greater daemons getting punted out. It hurt me personally cause my beloved Red Corsairs were the featured forefront, so thier moment of glory got sullied by this book.

The icing on the chaos cake though was one time reading here on dakka that all it was done because people complianed the previous dex i.e. the GOOD and COMPETITIVE one was too complicated. I'd still like to strangle those people for that reason but alas....hopefully the next dex with have the 3.5 dexs fun and options, Oblits moved back to where they were in 3.5 dex and of course cultist hordes. ^-^

why would you be annoyed? they were only separated so GW could try (and failed miserably) to make more money. sorry if it sounded as an attack, but i'm curious as to your reasoning because in all honesty daemons should be put back in to chaos marines

I agree with this. No one should be annoyed they should be grateful.

As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

What if I want a Chaos army that has power armor, daemons, and 2-3 units of 15-20 plus cultists alltogether led by a daemon prince, charging the enemy in howls to the gods, while defilers and a land raider cover thier advance?

As it is however, returning them back to their original form would be a blessing from the stars above. The chaos daemon book was horribly written, with points costs horribly done. (Crushers, Fiends, near everything else). And just not necessary, I'd rather have CSM/CD back together as they properly should.

Amen.

I'm hoping what happens with havocs will be part of a more comprehensive rethinking of how Chaos should play and how their concept should translate to the tabletop. All armies are afflicted by rules not living upto fluff, Chaos the rules fail to even hint at the concept. Whether Chaos are 10,000 year old warriors or Rengade ex-loyalists turned pirates... the rules don't show either.

If GW does legionaries, they need to be elite on a level similar to the SW army. If they empahsize Renegade they have to have enough variety to represent the struggles of being without a major support infrastructure and acquiring and maintaining whatever you can.

Don't shoot me but I'd like to see Havocs as troops with a catch. Like you have to take 2+ units of CSMs to take a unit of Havocs....or maybe make that an Iron Warriors thing, but meh, it's my idea to make them unique, and so they don't compete for the Raider (unless they make it dedicated to get it out of the HS slot), defiler, Vindi, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote: I agree. Once the "cat was out of the bag" there's no putting it back in. Pulling daemons out of the Chaos Space Marines books reduced the redundancies; we have 4 cult marines units and 4 daemon units, all similar to each other but slightly different and yet all suppose to be equally capable. Putting daemons in their own codex allowed CSM to get out from under the Daemon's shadow and much the same for Daemons to get out from under CSM's. This will allow them to inevitably distinguish themselves in ways that would never be possible with an all in one codex.

Legions separating from Renegades will help unclutter the concepts that fill the Chaos Space Marines' book. Legions can have more in the way of specialized and elite cult units as well as other distinguishing units and Rengades can easily see the inclusion of lesser mortals and traitors players have wanted since before Eye of Terror. Most Chaos players would end up re-building for one codex and inevitably using other models they have as a starting point for the other.

Unclutter? Have you READ the 4th ed dex? It's as uncluttered and sterile as a hospital...a good hospital that is....anyway...There wasn't redundancies to begin with when you had daemons and csm together. Need specific daemon, give unit specific mark to summon them...done. There was no 'getting out from under a shadow' they are MEANT to be together. Daemons can't exist without mortal assitance to get INTO the world, they NEED cultists and CSM to hold them together. The next book literally needs to be 3.5 dex/daemons/LaTD all together in the glory they deserve.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Yep.

To be honest one of the oldest ideas bounced about on all forums has been the idea of Greater and Lesser Marks to replace icons, where a Lesser Mark would replicate the Icon's effect (so, for Nurgle +1 Toughness) while the greater Mark replicates the 'cult' effects (i.e. on normal CSMs would make them T5, FNP, Fearless, -1 Initiative).

Sure, this is a step back toward the 3.5 codex. But to be honest the Icons, as have been pointed out are fairly hefty costing upgrades (particularly Nurgle and Tzeentch) that are far, far too vulnerable to the wound allocation and sniper effects and powers that have come about since. Plus they certainly don't allow you to make 'Cult' armies - at least not ones that make any sort of sense (Plague Terminators not being Fearless and suddenly losing the +1 toughness because a guy dropped a stick? Really?).

We wouldn't need a whole slew of seperate unit entries - if anything it would reduce the existing number of entries (Berserkers, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons and Plague Marines ceasing to be seperate) allowing for the Traitors, Mutants and Cultist options that people are hoping for.

Hmmm I'd like to see that playtested as it does sound intriguing. Maybe instead of being cliche and calling it 'greater mark' call it like Marked for the Plague (nurgle) Marked for the Berzerker (Khorne) Marked for the Rubric (Tzeentch) Marked for the Noise (Slannesh)

Fluff wise it'd at least explain how legions recoup thier losses. They pick the best out of the renegades and 'bring them into the fold' so to speak.

I'd like to see non generic lesser daemons in a CSM army again! I'd also like to see the old animosity and summoning rules in some form too, that might be nice.

aka_mythos wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

And in regards to Renegade and Legion books, so... whats going on there? Are we thinking two separate books (oh please yes, I want a purist Legion book and then the Renegades to become LatD) or is the new CSM book going to replace the old CSM book?

I agree. Once the "cat was out of the bag" there's no putting it back in. Pulling daemons out of the Chaos Space Marines books reduced the redundancies; we have 4 cult marines units and 4 daemon units, all similar to each other but slightly different and yet all suppose to be equally capable. Putting daemons in their own codex allowed CSM to get out from under the Daemon's shadow and much the same for Daemons to get out from under CSM's. This will allow them to inevitably distinguish themselves in ways that would never be possible with an all in one codex.

Yeah i'm still trying to understand what you mean by that line...

Getting CSM out of Deamons Shadows?..., yeah like there was so many people who had more then 3 units of Deamons besides those playing Word Bearers...

Deamons back in 3.5 was just like GK's in 3rd, a Elite and powerfull choice, but who was limited(and thank god they where...)

Now i don't say that IF,( and thats a big IF), GW decide to redo the Deamons dex, and do it right, it should'n stay an army of his own.

But i'm 90% sure thats not gonna happen, well not soon anyway.

And for those who says that if Deamons are put back into CSM, units will dissapear?, c'mon!, 60% of the Book is just useless...

Only an handfull of units(just like in CSM...coincidence?) are doing something then just Dsing and die horribly while doing nothing, or getting turned in shreads, because their rules sucks...

What Deamons lack to be able to stand as a Codex, is the same thing CSM lacks, something that make them play as a whole, some internal mecanics or Magic.

Now i do, and i really do, hope that with upcoming Codexes this will change, and that be it CSM or Deamons, they become more interessting as a whole, and not only for a selection of units.

Yep.

To be honest one of the oldest ideas bounced about on all forums has been the idea of Greater and Lesser Marks to replace icons, where a Lesser Mark would replicate the Icon's effect (so, for Nurgle +1 Toughness) while the greater Mark replicates the 'cult' effects (i.e. on normal CSMs would make them T5, FNP, Fearless, -1 Initiative).

Sure, this is a step back toward the 3.5 codex. But to be honest the Icons, as have been pointed out are fairly hefty costing upgrades (particularly Nurgle and Tzeentch) that are far, far too vulnerable to the wound allocation and sniper effects and powers that have come about since. Plus they certainly don't allow you to make 'Cult' armies - at least not ones that make any sort of sense (Plague Terminators not being Fearless and suddenly losing the +1 toughness because a guy dropped a stick? Really?).

We wouldn't need a whole slew of seperate unit entries - if anything it would reduce the existing number of entries (Berserkers, Noise Marines, Thousand Sons and Plague Marines ceasing to be seperate) allowing for the Traitors, Mutants and Cultist options that people are hoping for.

Hmmm I'd like to see that playtested as it does sound intriguing. Maybe instead of being cliche and calling it 'greater mark' call it like Marked for the Plague (nurgle) Marked for the Berzerker (Khorne) Marked for the Rubric (Tzeentch) Marked for the Noise (Slannesh)

Fluff wise it'd at least explain how legions recoup thier losses. They pick the best out of the renegades and 'bring them into the fold' so to speak.

Well the names you suggest are dumb^^, but i think if this how things turn out, they will find cooler/stupider names for it ^^.

But yeah High Marks and Marks, are something i can life with.

The simple fact that GW would have said that the Icon can be carried by the Champ would have resolved the matter of the Worship Alzheimer..., but hey, that would require of them too much neurones to make them work...

Slayer le boucher wrote:

Well the names you suggest are dumb^^, but i think if this how things turn out, they will find cooler/stupider names for it ^^.

But yeah High Marks and Marks, are something i can life with.

The simple fact that GW would have said that the Icon can be carried by the Champ would have resolved the matter of the Worship Alzheimer..., but hey, that would require of them too much neurones to make them work...

Hehe well it's just a suggestion. I'm not paid to write this stuff.

I'm really, REALLY hoping for cultists, even if it's basically like the IG Penal Legions. That and improvements to Greater and Lesser Daemons, they just seem... lack luster at the moment, but that won't prevent me from using them as my army grows

Slayer le boucher wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

And in regards to Renegade and Legion books, so... whats going on there? Are we thinking two separate books (oh please yes, I want a purist Legion book and then the Renegades to become LatD) or is the new CSM book going to replace the old CSM book?

I agree. Once the "cat was out of the bag" there's no putting it back in. Pulling daemons out of the Chaos Space Marines books reduced the redundancies; we have 4 cult marines units and 4 daemon units, all similar to each other but slightly different and yet all suppose to be equally capable. Putting daemons in their own codex allowed CSM to get out from under the Daemon's shadow and much the same for Daemons to get out from under CSM's. This will allow them to inevitably distinguish themselves in ways that would never be possible with an all in one codex.

Yeah i'm still trying to understand what you mean by that line...

Getting CSM out of Deamons Shadows?..., yeah like there was so many people who had more then 3 units of Deamons besides those playing Word Bearers...

Clearly you have never faced a slaaneshi daemon bomb army then...

IF we do get lesser daemons again i just hope blood letters get their +1 strength power weapons back

Sorry, the DE refuse to hand them back

chaos0xomega wrote:Really, the idea of marks in the legions book kinda doesn't make sense. Its quite clear where the devotions of each of the legions (barring perhaps black legion and the word bearers who are a bit more variable) lies, the idea of someone fielding an army of thousand sons with the mark of khorne because it happens to be the power-build of choice makes me want to punch someone.

Marks aren't just visible indicators that you're BFFs with Khorne - they are a physical manifestation of the dedication of one group to a specific Chaos God. The World Eaters don't slap on a 'Mark of Khorne' to show their devotion to Khorne, the Mark is gained because of their devotion.

So Marks make perfect sense, because that's precisely how dedication works. The icons were the things that didn’t make sense, especially as everyone in the squad would forget who they worshipped the moment the guy holding the banner died.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Really, the idea of marks in the legions book kinda doesn't make sense. Its quite clear where the devotions of each of the legions (barring perhaps black legion and the word bearers who are a bit more variable) lies, the idea of someone fielding an army of thousand sons with the mark of khorne because it happens to be the power-build of choice makes me want to punch someone.

The icons were the things that didn’t make sense, especially as everyone in the squad would forget who they worshipped the moment the guy holding the banner died.

I think the idea behind the icon is that its more of a locus for warp energies, thus allowing the squad to channel the gods energies but I see your point

Corsair Princess wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:As nice as it would be, it doesn't make practical sense. Would you have a single new Terminator kit that has all the Legion (or, for sake of argument, the main four) in the same box? That's a lot of left-over bits. I really don't think GW would waste their time on a single sprue like that.

And I don't think they'd make four more sets of Chaos Terminators to go with the one they've already got.

Well with their current trend of 2 units in a box I could see it happening, I mean I had a ton of bits leftover from the grey knight boxes and such.

I was going to point out the GKT as well. Ive built 2 boxes and had tons of parts left over each time. It would actually be great to have a CSMT box done like the GKT.

And what’s a Paladin folks? A GKT with a slightly different head and an easily breakable thing sticking out of his back. What’s a Deathmark? A different gun and a different head.

Neither of these things is really comparable to putting the icons, weapons and various other aesthetic details for four separate Legions (discounting the unaligned Legions) in the one box.

Not to just be a contrarian (Ok, maybe a little)--but while I certainly appreciate the amount of bits they throw in a box now--I sometimes also wonder how much that drives cost. While the extra plastic is minimal, design time, etc. is likely a factor. I ask, as when I finish assembling my guys from new boxes, I end up just like the previous poster stated--a box full of bits left.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And what’s a Paladin folks? A GKT with a slightly different head and an easily breakable thing sticking out of his back. What’s a Deathmark? A different gun and a different head.

Neither of these things is really comparable to putting the icons, weapons and various other aesthetic details for four separate Legions (discounting the unaligned Legions) in the one box.

There is actually a bit more difference than a Gun and Head, between a Deathmark and a Immortal. The Shoulders are different, there is a different part of the spine, in addition to the Head and weapons It ends up making both of them look pretty distinct.

The Lychguard box is a really good example.of a ton of extra bits It has 4 different weapon options, in addition to all the extra bits that differentiate Praetorians and Lychguard. I could see Legion boxes on that scale.

I’m going to agree with H.B.M.C. on this one. It would be nice but it won’t happen (this is GW we’re talking about remember).

At best I seem them selling terminator shoulder pad/head conversion kits for direct order on their website.

I could see GW re-cutting the termi sprue to get god specific shoulder pads/heads in there.
Only problem is you'll only get one of each head/pad, just like the CSM current command sprue.

Marthike wrote:

Kairos wrote:

Marthike wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:

Marthike wrote:black templar will be next. if there is a codex release every 3 month then you might get tau seanking in before black templar.

However, the chances are low so I can say 90% sure black templar is next.

definatly not chaos.

Proof? Where are you getting this info from?

Also, at Brother SRM's post: I like the current Berzerkers...I think they're a fun kit. I've purchased 30 models for them

I have my sources

If you are going to make a bold claim like this, we need more than "I have my sources".

Otherwise, this is just more Ghost21 double talk.

All current\leaked information at this point says Dark Angels are next, followed by 6th Edition, followed by Chaos Space Marines.

What else do i say? #### told me who works in #### that knows #### so its reliable?

I have seen all the rumours and i have my opponion on all of them, not everything is Ghost21's info. Its up to you if you believe what i say anyway so believe what you like but I am backing black templar for next release unless, there is something comming next month, but I don;t think any 40k is getting released soon and chaos will be after the 6th ed i believe (this is my guess). However, before the 6th ed I do think black templar are next.

If you have information/news/rumors, can you put them into the BT thread or send them to kroothawk? We want info, but don't want to derail chaos. Don't give away your source, but please pass on what you can in the other thread.

Slayer le boucher wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

And in regards to Renegade and Legion books, so... whats going on there? Are we thinking two separate books (oh please yes, I want a purist Legion book and then the Renegades to become LatD) or is the new CSM book going to replace the old CSM book?

I agree. Once the "cat was out of the bag" there's no putting it back in. Pulling daemons out of the Chaos Space Marines books reduced the redundancies; we have 4 cult marines units and 4 daemon units, all similar to each other but slightly different and yet all suppose to be equally capable. Putting daemons in their own codex allowed CSM to get out from under the Daemon's shadow and much the same for Daemons to get out from under CSM's. This will allow them to inevitably distinguish themselves in ways that would never be possible with an all in one codex.

Yeah i'm still trying to understand what you mean by that line...

Getting CSM out of Deamons Shadows?..., yeah like there was so many people who had more then 3 units of Deamons besides those playing Word Bearers...
...

I just mean that as long as Codex: CSM shared a book with daemons... there being 4 Greater, 4 lesser, and furies etc... and given the current codex format GW's game designers would never have enough space to add to the rules of either to better refine and represent the concepts of those two distinct armies.

If they had retained daemons in the CSM codex this edition we'd have ended up with 9 troop choices, all designed so as to be relatively even with atleast some of each other so as to not appear as if any one god is better than the others. Imagine a loyalist SM codex where they could choose from Tactical Squad, Blood Angels Tactical Squad, Dark Angels Tactical Squad, or Space Wolves Grey Hunters... while that might be neat in a book of unlimited size doesn't really accomplish anything. To a degree this is equivalent to whats in the CSM book but everytime the distinction between the Chaos gods are made the book sees the redundancy replicated. Its a redundancy that works once maybe twice but beyond that you're taking up resources with mutually exclusive units that add flavor to specific type of army but not to the concept of chaos on the whole.

Imagine a loyalist SM codex where they could choose from Tactical Squad, Blood Angels Tactical Squad, Dark Angels Tactical Squad, or Space Wolves Grey Hunters

First off, DA and standard are the same tactical squad, second off that's how it kinda works a bit now with the Special Characters granting an additional change to Combat Tactics. Now imagine this

Take Logan
Combat tactics changes to Acute Senses/Counter attack
Gains ability to take/gain weaponry (This has been done before in some of the IA books)

It'd be the exact same thing.

Maybe just to keep with the Legion theme instead of "God marks" should they go with legion over God specific.

Take "Master of the Iron Warriors"

Generic Legion rules lost, Iron warrior legion rules gained.
Lose/Gain weaponry.

Let there be one specific genetic template for the god/legion troops. A profile window that could be applied as broadly as combat tactics could be changed for twinlinking weaponry and gaining mastercraft on thunderhammers.

Khorne Mark: Furious Charge/Extra attack: Gains access to Khorne Wargear
Nurgle Mark: Feel no pain/Extra T : Gains access to Nurgle Wargear

So buying a Standard CSM troop would gain with Nurgle mark

FNP/+1 T/ Blight grenades

And buying a standard terminator with Khorne mark

Furious Charge/ +1A/ Khornate Chainaxes

We don't need entirely SEPARATE templates at all, if they could just make the mark standard a standard profile. Use something in the matter of a generic template that one can apply over each and every troop with a buy able mark/legion rules. And all you need otherwise is to make unique stuff outside of that.

The only issue would be making unique style Wargear, but that would help classify chaos better as it is, renegade weapons are worthless, don't represent chaos at all. Give me some plague spewers!

I propose two generic templates for chaos. One for legion rules, and one for God rules. That way the templates can be mixed and matched appropriately. These will be the replacements for Chaos instead of ATSKNF and Combat Tactics

ZebioLizard2 wrote:First off, DA and standard are the same tactical squad, second off that's how it kinda works a bit now with the Special Characters granting an additional change to Combat Tactics. Now imagine this

Now, lets just stop right there. It might not be the best example, but the point is that having distinct and seperate unit entries for so many troop choices that aren't different enough is a waste of space.

What you're talking about is just a way they can write the rules to waste less space, but given what I'm talking about it'd still be a waste of space. I'm not advocating the removal of cult units or changing their format, just that as it is and as it might have been without removing daemons... there would never be the opportunity for GW to add more units to refine the concept.

I don't really want to propose rules, though I think I've made my idea clear that Marks of Chaos are more a matter of distinction for Renegades while the distinctions for Legionaries are more a case of their respective legion.

What you're talking about is just a way they can write the rules to waste less space, but given what I'm talking about it'd still be a waste of space. I'm not advocating the removal of cult units or changing their format, just that as it is and as it might have been without removing daemons... there would never be the opportunity for GW to add more units to refine the concept.

What is the concept of chaos to you than? It seems we are at an impasse because I have no clue what you actually even desire from chaos. What would refine the concept of chaos more than actually getting the god marks and legion rules right. What sort of units would not show the concept of chaos better than properly done god marks, wargear actually done properly, along with properly done up units.

What are you actually looking for?

Their story is this quest for power in the face of limited and diminished resources resulting in their break from the Imperium. Where the Imperium has dug up ancient templates and designed new variants of vehicles and weapons, Chaos hasn't. The Chaos Legions have resorted utilizing daemons, to supplement their numbers and improve their technology. The Daemons themselves represent a truer form of Chaos in its almost uncontrollable form. Chaos marines use different means to harness these uncontrollable entities, binding daemons to weapons and warmachines that would just as likely want to kill them. The Chaos Renegades have largely stolen from the Imperium and likely traded or recieved aid from the Legions... while recruiting lesser mortals as fodder.

That said I think its more refining to the concept to see CSM Legion units that utilize lesser daemon weapons, a variety of daemon engines beyond the defiler... making possessed make more sense... and creating more of a continuum upto Daemon prince. Renegades should end up more like LatD with a few of the Legions units but much more similar to the current list with the inclusion of traitor guard and mutant units.

The other notion that refines Chaos is to deemphasize the big 4 gods. Chaos is supposed to be more nebulus in our understanding of it but have become so significantly defined by those 4. Everyone wants more in the way of "Cults" but they often forget there is also the "Obliterator Cult" and the "Raptor Cult" and understanding why some Chaos worshippers don't just choose one of the big 4 makes it alot more interesting. For example, the Obliterator cult are ex-techmarines who have bonded themselves to machines utilizing a daemon infused techno-virus... why couldn't they do that to a techmarine in a dreadnought.

The distinction between "Renegades" and "Legions" need to be made and not ignored as GW has done by treating them all the same. Marks of gods work for Renegades; they don't make sense when it comes to Legions. In a Renegade army, you'd see marks as a unit upgrade. In a Legion army the required upgrade would be "which legion" and anyone in that Legion that worships Khorne would be a Berzerker at this point. Thematically I think GW could also draw more distinctions between mutations through unintentional Chaos exposure and possession resulting in a more direct, desired, and intended exposure to Chaos. I think that should come out more regardless of where it appears though I'd tend to think both work in Legions, but possession doesn't strike me as being as likely in a Renegade force.

That said I think its more refining to the concept to see CSM units that utilize lesser daemon weapons, a variety of daemon engines beyond the defiler... meking possessed make more sense.

So you want better wargear that represents chaos (which is what I asked for)

Possessed do make plenty of sense when you read into it a bit, they are chaos warriors who have received large amounts of daemonic gifts, daemonic, warped, but not yet chaos spawn or daemon prince, they are close to ascension...Or their own mindless damnation. They are as close to actual daemonkind as they can get without fully crossing over.

The whole daemon engine thing would be wonderful, but at the same time I worry that due to the daemonic split we may lose the ability to gain such things, after all the soul grinder is a perfect example, who's to say some of the more daemonic infused things will simply just wind up with CD rather than CSM? That is what I fear the most thanks to this entire split. That we may lose daemonic fueled things that aren't dreadnaught related.

Everyone wants more in the way of "Cults" but they often forget there is also the "Obliterator Cult" and the "Raptor Cult" and understanding why some Chaos worshippers don't just choose one of the big 4 makes it alot more interesting. For example, the Obliterator cult are ex-techmarines who have bonded themselves to machines utilizing a daemon infused techno-virus... why couldn't they do that to a techmarine in a dreadnought.

The obliterate virus isn't exactly a very willing one, most of them were forced into the change, though the iron warriors have enjoyed forcing it upon their best warriors, having cultivated the warp virus for their own uses. Raptor cults are honestly, just speed freaks, desiring speed, terror, and the desire to cause unholy fear within a populace with their jets. As for the obliterator cult virus, it absorbs weaponry and armor, at the time it was shown that a few actually consumed the dreadnaughts sarcophagus and integrated it's weaponry.

The distinction between "Renegades" and "Legions" need to be made and not ignored as GW has done by treating them all the same. Marks of gods work for Renegades; they don't make sense when it comes to Legions. In a Renegade army, you'd see marks as a unit upgrade. In a Legion army the required upgrade would be "which legion" and anyone in that Legion that worships Khorne would be a Berzerker at this point.

I would honestly say that I could agree with this however there are several legions which have meaningful interactions between marked units and other legions. I honestly would love to settle down completely with this idea, but however this would nullify several of the other legions most potent aspects. I'll simple use the most famous one for now

Black legion teams up with ALL the chaos gods, though they are undivided mostly, they have a variety of warbands and various other things that join up with them. They have even included raving warbands of bezerkers, plague marines, slaughterfiends, blight drones, tzeentchian sorcerer covens, raptor cults, obliterator cults, cults of the damned, and various other things. This is the main legion that would cause contention with such a rule.

One more as well, the word bearers are undivided, yet their goal and necessity is between all the chaos gods as demagogues of the entire host. Summoning daemons of each god and worshipping each and every one. You cannot simply say they would get generic daemons, as it wouldn't mesh well with this legion.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

That said I think its more refining to the concept to see CSM units that utilize lesser daemon weapons, a variety of daemon engines beyond the defiler... meking possessed make more sense.

So you want better wargear that represents chaos (which is what I asked for)

Possessed do make plenty of sense when you read into it a bit, they are chaos warriors who have received large amounts of daemonic gifts, daemonic, warped, but not yet chaos spawn or daemon prince, they are close to ascension...Or their own mindless damnation. They are as close to actual daemonkind as they can get without fully crossing over.

I really didn't organize these thoughts well... but its part of that contiuum bridging chaos space marine and daemon prince. Its not better "wargear" as an upgrade... its more the possessed being somewhere inbetween "aspiring champion" and "daemon prince" should maybe be a bit more "daemon prince" and a bit less a mix and match blob... that being somewhere on the path to acension they should have acquired lesser daemon weapons. Its part of the failure to delineate mutation and possession. Chaos Spawn are the result of mutation, while possessed are obviously the result of possession both have a randomness that make them exceedingly difficult to use. If you give a unit like Possessed lesser daemon weapons it gives the game designer a way to stabalize possessed as a unit and make the randomness more a by-product of the weapon.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The whole daemon engine thing would be wonderful, but at the same time I worry that due to the daemonic split we may lose the ability to gain such things, after all the soul grinder is a perfect example, who's to say some of the more daemonic infused things will simply just wind up with CD rather than CSM? That is what I fear the most thanks to this entire split. That we may lose daemonic fueled things that aren't dreadnaught related.

The Soulgrinder in my opinion is conceptually silly. Pages and pages of fluff describe daemons as unwilling and uncontrolling entities... here comes the soulgrinder where a daemon willingly possess it and marches along with its fellow daemons. It really would have made more sense being Defilers where the daemon basically asserted itself, broke free, and went wild. Nope willing pact.

Daemon engines though are the distinctly "Chaos" vehicle. We have an army where all our vehicle kits with one exception is borrowed from another army. Our vehicle accessory sprue is pitiful when compared to the accessories of any of the loyalists who also share these vehicles. Daemon engines are uniquely chaos and distinguish them more from other MEQ's than anything else could. Before I put 2 defilers in my army, everyone mistook my CSM as just SM; so its not just a distinction of rules but a visual one.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The obliterate virus isn't exactly a very willing one, most of them were forced into the change, though the iron warriors have enjoyed forcing it upon their best warriors, having cultivated the warp virus for their own uses. Raptor cults are honestly, just speed freaks, desiring speed, terror, and the desire to cause unholy fear within a populace with their jets. As for the obliterator cult virus, it absorbs weaponry and armor, at the time it was shown that a few actually consumed the dreadnaughts sarcophagus and integrated it's weaponry.

And Berzerkers are just insane guys who run wildly at the enemy with chainaxes... (sarcasm off).... My point is that it's just as important to expand on them as it is to expand on the big 4 cults. In addition to elite versions of the big 4, Obliterators could see an interesting dreadnought, and Raptors should be part of the inevitable inclusion of aircraft. I was just giving an example of HOW things could be expanded, not that they necessarily should be in that way. The big 4 cults can still sit on their pedestals but more than half the legions were undivided and thus the undivided cults should get attention too.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I would honestly say that I could agree with this however there are several legions which have meaningful interactions between marked units and other legions. I honestly would love to settle down completely with this idea, but however this would nullify several of the other legions most potent aspects. I'll simple use the most famous one for now

Black legion teams up with ALL the chaos gods...

One more as well, the word bearers are undivided...

When it comes to "meaningful interactions"... you are only playing an army of about 50-100 models... meaning you're never really representing a "meaningful interaction" on the table. In my ideal, a unit of Legionaries have to choose a legion, but that doesn't necessarily mean they all have to be the same legion. Next you'd still have Berzerkers, Plaguemarines etc doing double duty as those cult units and the Legionaries of the respective Legion.

Black Legion are basically to allow for a themeless army, or in the least a theme of your own choosing. My ideal is already a free-formed "Legion" army with characterizations beyond the mandatory upgrade choice being left to the player's own characterization of his/her army.

Word Bearers are difficult to reconcile with the rest. Their modus opperandi, isn't one unit, its about being able to use about 8 different choices. I don't think Chaos Marines should necessarily see the type of distinctions between different daemons but Word Bearers could simply benefit from being able to use them differently; like taking them as a scoring troop choice, where others can't.

And Berzerkers are just insane guys who run wildly at the enemy with chainaxes... (sarcasm off)..

Khorne Berzerkers are Chaos Space Marines dedicated entirely to glorifying the Chaos God Khorne through hand to hand combat. Driven by bloodlust, their only purpose is to kill and destroy their enemies in the name of Khorne.

They are known to kill even their own allies if caught in the heat of battle or lacking alternative adversaries, a situation epitomised by Khârn the Betrayer. Their battle prowess has earned them a fearsome reputation on the battlefield, although it also leads to them being unable to form a single, cohesive and mutually supportive unit. Berzerker bands vary in size and strength, often lending their aid to whichever side offers them the greatest chance of combat and slaughter.

Why yes! Yes they are! That's the problem with defining an entire legion as one thing because Bezerkers are literally chaos marines who worship khorne who have removed sections in their brains to be truly fearless against all odds, and not to mention the world eaters are not ALL Bezerkers! Bezerkers are technically a specific type, they do have people who enjoy shooting and using ranged weaponry to spill blood, ride vehicles, even if most of them prefers the center charge up the middle in a MAIM! KILL! BURN! formation

The big 4 cults can still sit on their pedestals but more than half the legions were undivided and thus the undivided cults should get attention too.

Not arguing this, as I agree, but the problem is both the gods and the unmarked got shafted, so attention needs to be paid to both after all. The main issue is so much needs to be fixed!



I

really didn't organize these thoughts well... but its part of that contiuum bridging chaos space marine and daemon prince. Its not better "wargear" as an upgrade... its more the possessed being somewhere inbetween "aspiring champion" and "daemon prince" should maybe be a bit more "daemon prince" and a bit less a mix and match blob... that being somewhere on the path to acension they should have acquired lesser daemon weapons. Its part of the failure to delineate mutation and possession. Chaos Spawn are the result of mutation, while possessed are obviously the result of possession both have a randomness that make them exceedingly difficult to use. If you give a unit like Possessed lesser daemon weapons it gives the game designer a way to stabalize possessed as a unit and make the randomness more a by-product of the weapon.

That's how they used to work in 3rd edition, they bought powers. In fact a daemon prince didn't use to be separate, it used to be that a chaos lord with at least 50 points of daemonic mutations counted as a DP, and could still take daemonic weaponry and various artifacts.

Daemon engines though are the distinctly "Chaos" vehicle. We have an army where all our vehicle kits with one exception is borrowed from another army. Our vehicle accessory sprue is pitiful when compared to the accessories of any of the loyalists who also share these vehicles. Daemon engines are uniquely chaos and distinguish them more from other MEQ's than anything else could. Before I put 2 defilers in my army, everyone mistook my CSM as just SM; so its not just a distinction of rules but a visual one.

Try using better models than for your infantry But yes I know, I enjoy the defiler too myself, the only problem is that I want a melee defiler, but at WS3 it really hurts against some things.

Black Legion are basically to allow for a themeless army, or in the least a theme of your own choosing. My ideal is already a free-formed "Legion" army with characterizations beyond the mandatory upgrade choice being left to the player's own characterization of his/her army.

That would be if the black legion wasn't already a thought out legion with its own types of rules. Black Legion aren't exactly comparable to Ultramarine's (Despite the fact they often are as the "generic" type), unless Ultramarine's can begin bringing in Furiso Dreadnoughts, with backup from Thunder wolves and Gray knight terminators. I will not begin to see black legion as the generic fall to guy. I believe that there should be a generic template, but black legion is not that template.

I don't think Chaos Marines should necessarily see the type of distinctions between different daemons but Word Bearers could simply benefit from being able to use them differently; like taking them as a scoring troop choice, where others can't.

Yes because Word Bearer players really want another version of "Generic Crappy Daemons number 22" again to deal with.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Why yes! Yes they are! That's the problem with defining an entire legion as one thing because Bezerkers are literally chaos marines who worship khorne who have removed sections in their brains to be truly fearless against all odds, and not to mention the world eaters are not ALL Bezerkers! Bezerkers are technically a specific type, they do have people who enjoy shooting and using ranged weaponry to spill blood, ride vehicles, even if most of them prefers the center charge up the middle in a MAIM! KILL! BURN! formation

I'm pretty sure at this point its been said, all World Eaters are berzerkers, but not all berzerkers are world eaters. I'm not saying it makes a great deal of sense just that its what's been said.
My point is that its easy to ignore an idea when you generalize its characterization... hence the sarcasm in making a statement that did just that to Berzerkers.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
The main issue is so much needs to be fixed!

Exactly and yet people are insisting on significant redundancies that cut into just how much GW might accomplish.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I really didn't organize these thoughts well... but its part of that contiuum bridging chaos space marine and daemon prince. Its not better "wargear" as an upgrade... its more the possessed being somewhere inbetween "aspiring champion" and "daemon prince" should maybe be a bit more "daemon prince" and a bit less a mix and match blob... that being somewhere on the path to acension they should have acquired lesser daemon weapons. Its part of the failure to delineate mutation and possession. Chaos Spawn are the result of mutation, while possessed are obviously the result of possession both have a randomness that make them exceedingly difficult to use. If you give a unit like Possessed lesser daemon weapons it gives the game designer a way to stabalize possessed as a unit and make the randomness more a by-product of the weapon.

That's how they used to work in 3rd edition, they bought powers. In fact a daemon prince didn't use to be separate, it used to be that a chaos lord with at least 50 points of daemonic mutations counted as a DP, and could still take daemonic weaponry and various artifacts.

I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not talking about a Lord, I'm talking about a unit of possessed. I realize this sort of continuum existed before... been playing Chaos since 2nd... I'm just saying as a defining aspect of Chaos it should exist in other parts of the codex. Does an Aspiring champion find a daemon weapon and *snap* he's a Lord, or *snap* he's possessed. If a possessed marine is on a path toward being a daemon prince then giving them some sort of lesser daemon weapon to turn them into a unit that actually deserves to be called "elite" make sense... even if the use of that as opposed to their own abilities is inconsistent.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Try using better models than for your infantry But yes I know, I enjoy the defiler too myself, the only problem is that I want a melee defiler, but at WS3 it really hurts against some things.

You'd think bright orange and purple would be enough to convey "non-loyalists"... Chaos' basic infantry should be more distinct, because if your champions don't have horns on their helmets they look like marines until you lean in. I just wish I still had my classic miniatures with their more organic aesthetic, which broke up the smoothed armored profile and made them more distinctive at a distance.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That would be if the black legion wasn't already a thought out legion with its own types of rules. Black Legion aren't exactly comparable to Ultramarine's (Despite the fact they often are as the "generic" type), unless Ultramarine's can begin bringing in Furiso Dreadnoughts, with backup from Thunder wolves and Gray knight terminators. I will not begin to see black legion as the generic fall to guy. I believe that there should be a generic template, but black legion is not that template.

In a free form codex where a player isn't bound by a rigid concept, there is little distinction between Black Legion and the rest, unless we go back to cult units being "elites" except in their respective Legion... and some intermediate level for Black Legion, like those units being Elite but scoring.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Yes because Word Bearer players really want another version of "Generic Crappy Daemons number 22" again to deal with.

Anything more than that and you invalidate the reason to play Daemon armies, and GW isn't going to do that anytime soon. I liked having different daemon but having the redundancy of different types of daemons clutters a codex. It'd make sense enough if summoned Daemons simply recieved a buff of some sort when summoned by Word Bearers.

aka_mythos wrote:Anything more than that and you invalidate the reason to play Daemon armies

I don't know about that, the Daemon codex has a lot of varied options (HQ, elites, FA) that you won't get by having different daemons in the CSM codex. Perhaps just 4 demons (Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Screamers, Daemonettes) rather than the whole array available in daemons (no Bloodcrushers, nurglings, flamers, horrors, seekers, flesh hounds...), thereby diversifying the CSM codex without making Daemons obsolete.

Generic demons is probably the worst part of the current codex.

JustDave's codex handles this fantastically and is a blast to play with. You select a template, so to speak, for each of your HQ options, and these open up a few extra options and special rules for your units. Every unit has to be "branded" as following one of the templates you've chosen. It's straightforward and sensible, allowing for just enough flexibility to make fluffy legion armies without being overpowered at all.

Daemons are handled how they always should've been handled. You have generic daemons, yes, but then you can apply god-specific marks to them. Sure it doesn't create the bewildering variety chaos used to have, but it's good enough to satisfy the desire for god-specific daemons.

If GW ended up NOT following these basic ideas, I would honestly be surprised.

biccat wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Anything more than that and you invalidate the reason to play Daemon armies

I don't know about that, the Daemon codex has a lot of varied options (HQ, elites, FA) that you won't get by having different daemons in the CSM codex. Perhaps just 4 demons (Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Screamers, Daemonettes) rather than the whole array available in daemons (no Bloodcrushers, nurglings, flamers, horrors, seekers, flesh hounds...), thereby diversifying the CSM codex without making Daemons obsolete.

Generic demons is probably the worst part of the current codex.

Its more a case of distinctiveness. Simply CSM would be stealing the Chaos Daemons troop choices. Rather than that I always thought Word Bearers should have been the way for a Daemon army to optionally incorporate CSM.

Similarly I though Alpha Legion and Renegades could inject the optional CSM into a LatD type army.

I'm going to agree with the idea that generic Daemons should get to purchase marks, but they should get a special rule or two with that purchase. Also: Option for Jump Infantry. (Furies as infs? FFFFF)

That's perfectly viable too. I just don't think CSM should be duplicating CD unit entries.

About plastic releases, I've started a Chaos army recently. And I didn't buy any havocs, dread, raptors or oblits. IMO, they are either metal (havocs or oblits), crap (raptors) or metal crap (dread). If they solve this units making them in plastic, I think they will earn lots of money. Oblits could be finecast, but a real good model is needed, not like that DE supposedly multipose grotesque crap.

Hoping them to hear me (silly me...), I'm buying/painting as much as current plastic models I can in order to save time to paint those wanted new plastic models. Pray with me...

aka_mythos wrote:Its more a case of distinctiveness. Simply CSM would be stealing the Chaos Daemons troop choices.

They already "stole" Chaos Space Marines, Land Raiders, Predators, Rhinos, Vindicators, Havocs, Terminators, and Raptors from the Space Marine codex, I'm not sure why it would be any worse to steal demons from Daemons (especially since Daemons took many of its units from the 3rd ed. Chaos Codex). If you're going to avoid overlap between Space Marines and Demons, you're left with cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler.

Ultimately, the problem is that Chaos Legions need to be handled like Space Marines - at least each major Legion (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Word Bearers and Black Legion) should be a distinct codex. Ideally other legions should get their own codices as well, the difference between the Night Lords and the Iron Warriors is more distinct than the difference between Space Marines and Space Wolves.

But we all know this won't happen. So there needs to be some level of compromise to allow for a useful codex while showcasing the difference between the various Armies of Chaos.

I think daemons could easily be handled as such: single entry for a lesser daemon choice. May purchase mark of x for +y points, mark of x gives following bonus to statline. Additionally, daemon unit may purchase the following generic upgrades. Done. With the right options, etc. you could possibly come close to replicating a bloodletter/pinkhorror/daemonette/plaguebearer but the daemons in the CD book would invariably be superior choices.

biccat wrote:They already "stole" Chaos Space Marines, Land Raiders, Predators, Rhinos, Vindicators, Havocs, Terminators, and Raptors from the Space Marine codex, I'm not sure why it would be any worse to steal demons from Daemons (especially since Daemons took many of its units from the 3rd ed. Chaos Codex). If you're going to avoid overlap between Space Marines and Demons, you're left with cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler.

I'm not saying you have no overlap just a deemphasized overlap. CSM have so much that stolen, everything else needs to be emphasized to distinguish them better from other MEQ armies. The problem with daemons is that when you have 4 troop choice unit entries as opposed to the various other proposed ideas its hard to say they're not that big a part of the book.

The list of units in the same category as "cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler" is where the codex entries need to grow, but grow in distinctive ways not cookie cutter... "this is the khorne version with an extra -" whatever.

biccat wrote:So there needs to be some level of compromise to allow for a useful codex while showcasing the difference between the various Armies of Chaos.

Exactly but thats always been a problem with Chaos in the 3rd-5th edition format of the codex, its alot of ideas that are much bigger than a single book can hold. GW hasn't done it justice. Even when it did 3.5ed codex and everyone was happy that created severe imbalance in the game as a whole and showed it was overly complex to have 10+ distinct rule altering flavors in a single book.

aka_mythos wrote:I'm not saying you have no overlap just a deemphasized overlap. CSM have so much that stolen everything else needs to be emphasized to distinguish them better from other MEQ armies. The problem with daemons is that when you have 4 troop choice unit entries as opposed to the various other proposed ideas its hard to say they're not that big a part of the book.

The list of units in the same category as "cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler" is where the codex entries need to grow, but grow in distinctive ways not cookie cutter... "this is the khorne version with an extra -" whatever.

I actually don't see a problem with CSM being a mix of SM and Daemons.

I don't see how marks that are simple enough to be practical (e.g. +1 attack for Khorne, +1 initiative for Slaanesh, +1 T for nurgle, or +1 invul. for Tzeentch) make the units "distinctive." And if the rules are sufficiently complicated to be distinct (MoK gives rage, +1 attack, +1 WS, and fleet of foot; MoN gives +1 toughness, FNP, -1 I, defensive grenades; repeat for MoT & MoS) you may as well have different unit choices.

You can take a unit of Chaos Space Marines and give them the Mark of Nurgle, but that doesn't compare - either in game or fluff terms - to actual Plague Marines. I don't see how this works with Demons.

Exactly but thats always been a problem with Chaos in the 3rd-5th edition format of the codex, its alot of ideas that are much bigger than a single book can hold. GW hasn't done it justice. Even when it did 3.5ed codex and everyone was happy that created severe imbalance in the game as a whole and showed it was overly complex to have 10+ distinct rule altering flavors in a single book.

*Ahem* It was specific legion rules that caused the issue, not the amount of rules itself. Or if you want to be generous, it was just a balance issue.

Iron warriors is the common one cited, back when obliteration really were Godlike range rape and having 0-4 as an option really, Really, beat down the enemy. It's like if IG could take more of their gunships for far cheaper.

Balance does not correspond with specific rules. We have Space wolves to thank for that. As even someone who isn't locked in a complete vacuum could see that Gray Hunters (They cost the same as a Chaos Space Marine, cheaper than a Tactical squad, and are better) It doesn't matter if there's 100 rules, or 1 single rule, balance is a hard issue to pin down, but don't think it was caused because of a lot of rules at once.

biccat wrote:
I don't see how marks that are simple enough to be practical (e.g. +1 attack for Khorne, +1 initiative for Slaanesh, +1 T for nurgle, or +1 invul. for Tzeentch) make the units "distinctive." And if the rules are sufficiently complicated to be distinct (MoK gives rage, +1 attack, +1 WS, and fleet of foot; MoN gives +1 toughness, FNP, -1 I, defensive grenades; repeat for MoT & MoS) you may as well have different unit choices.

That first think doesn't bother me. I'm talking specifically about having each of those as 4 separate unit entries. If the rules get so involved as to warrant separate unit entries then they have a greater emphasis than the basic Chaos Space Marine unit. This is suppose to be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, and not just Codex: Chaos. Having 4 unit entries is having 3 more units then necessary... meaning you've now taken up 2-3 pages in a book that would thematically serve the concept better by being something else. The Chaos Daemon concept is so big an important it got its own book, why must it then be distilled down again, that defeats the purpose of having a separate book.

biccat wrote:I don't see how this works with Demons.

It simply shouldn't because this is Codex: Chaos Space Marines, Legions, or Renegades... not Codex: Chaos Daemon and not Codex: Chaos everything and the kitchen sink. Daemons are present only as a thematic device, and should not be as the driving theme of the book.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:*Ahem* It was specific legion rules that caused the issue, not the amount of rules itself. Or if you want to be generous, it was just a balance issue.

*Ahem* I'm not pulling this out my butt... GW's game designers have said several times that the reason they dropped alot from the 3.5 ed codex was that it was too complex. Complexity comes from volume not from individual army vairants. The fact that between legions, veteran skills, and marks you could generate over 300 configuration and combinations of rules for the basic Chaos Space Marine squad before purchasing weapons and champions. That is a level of complexity that was too much for most non-chaos players to get a grasp on. It'd be fine if all the books were that way but most weren't and those that were tended to have more modeling demand and more downsides or limitations on abilities.

GW could have fixed the 3.5 ed by removing one or two types of variations or distinct daemons, but it chose to pretty much kick them all and thats why the current book suffers. The current book is a baseline starting point and its a case of "how much more can be squeezed in with reformatting?"-Only so much. So in this world of scarce resources a limited number of pages in a codex, how much new stuff do people want versus retreading?-Because those will compete for pages. And how much vairation can you squeeze in before it again becomes cumbersome?

mythos, the 'fix the 3.5 ed by removing one or two types of variations' argument glosses over the fact that the design studios dominant design philosophy at the time was to oversimplify and restrict pretty much everything. What you propose would never have resulted from that environment.

*Ahem* I'm not pulling this out my butt... GW's game designers have said several times that the reason they dropped alot from the 3.5 ed codex was that it was too complex.

You believe this? Coming from Jarvis "I've ruined DA by my oversimplifying methods for how many versions now?" The fact of the matter was him and alessio wanted to simplify EVERYTHING down. The eldar, chaos codex, DA, and Orks are the best examples. All flavor Gone. And compared to chaos, they didn't even have this many options to begin with.

Not to mention more books = more money, so splitting it into two just made it easier to sell more kits.

Zebio, agreed, although Orks are a terrible example, by that point the design studio realized their mistake, this is why the ork codex has a ridiculous number of units available to it by comparison and more than its fair share of special/unique rules.

chaos0xomega wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Xeriapt wrote:I would certainly love to see some new noise marine stuff.

Would be pretty annoyed if they combined the CSM and Daemons though. Pretty sure they wont.

why would you be annoyed? they were only separated so GW could try (and failed miserably) to make more money. sorry if it sounded as an attack, but i'm curious as to your reasoning because in all honesty daemons should be put back in to chaos marines

As a chaos daemons player: No, they shouldn't. I like being able to play a chaos army that doesn't involve power armor thank you very much. Besides that, combining the two together as they are now would lead to one of the most stupidly overpowered armies in the game (hurr I'll take fateweaver, a bunch of bloodcrushers and obliterators, and back them up with plague marines).

And in regards to Renegade and Legion books, so... whats going on there? Are we thinking two separate books (oh please yes, I want a purist Legion book and then the Renegades to become LatD) or is the new CSM book going to replace the old CSM book?

I'll take Tallyman, a bunch of plague marines and plague bearers...

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

*Ahem* I'm not pulling this out my butt... GW's game designers have said several times that the reason they dropped alot from the 3.5 ed codex was that it was too complex.

You believe this? Coming from Jarvis "I've ruined DA by my oversimplifying methods for how many versions now?" The fact of the matter was him and alessio wanted to simplify EVERYTHING down. The eldar, chaos codex, DA, and Orks are the best examples. All flavor Gone. And compared to chaos, they didn't even have this many options to begin with.

Not to mention more books = more money, so splitting it into two just made it easier to sell more kits.

And seeing as Alessio is the reason I wouldn't touch Kings of war it makes things crystal clear. But a comparison of the DA and vanilla marine Codex highlights how different they are. The lack of things like bionics, an over crowded elite section and take a special character to have different troop types etc is the driving force behind me losing all interest in 40k. The eldar codex was at least vaguely acceptable, if very constraining for representing a craftworld. I can only hope flavour returns and options are again put forth.
But theres the danger of chaos specifically becoming too complex.
Some people want daemons, some all traitor marines other cultists rising up, some with triator guardsmen/PDF in with those cultists/marines, others a mix. Then there is also rules for specific legions, mix and match legions and cults, then ofcourse custom lords, princes etc. And within that complexity even if they do manage to get it into a single codex, you can bet there won't be balance because there is simply too much of a workload for it all to be playtested thoroughly. (bear with me and just assume this is reasonable practical people making this). Even as far back as 2nd edition a single chaos lord could be nigh on unkillable at a very high points cost, and kill anything it went for and win games by itself, be careful what we wish for. Or better yet, make GW give me a developers job, I'll bring back customise your own characters and no need for compulsory special characters!

biccat wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Its more a case of distinctiveness. Simply CSM would be stealing the Chaos Daemons troop choices.

They already "stole" Chaos Space Marines, Land Raiders, Predators, Rhinos, Vindicators, Havocs, Terminators, and Raptors from the Space Marine codex, I'm not sure why it would be any worse to steal demons from Daemons (especially since Daemons took many of its units from the 3rd ed. Chaos Codex). If you're going to avoid overlap between Space Marines and Demons, you're left with cult troops, obliterators, possessed and the Defiler.

Ultimately, the problem is that Chaos Legions need to be handled like Space Marines - at least each major Legion (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Word Bearers and Black Legion) should be a distinct codex. Ideally other legions should get their own codices as well, the difference between the Night Lords and the Iron Warriors is more distinct than the difference between Space Marines and Space Wolves.

But we all know this won't happen. So there needs to be some level of compromise to allow for a useful codex while showcasing the difference between the various Armies of Chaos.

Demons with a penalty - Elite choices, +5 pts per demon (maybe too much but the thought of berzerkers backed up by bloodletters is a scary thought)

Bring back the true marked versions with the limitations. MoN you get FNP and +1 T but you can't take HW... MoS you get +1 I and switch AC for Blastmasters, Doom Sirens for Flamers/Meltaguns

chaos0xomega wrote:mythos, the 'fix the 3.5 ed by removing one or two types of variations' argument glosses over the fact that the design studios dominant design philosophy at the time was to oversimplify and restrict pretty much everything. What you propose would never have resulted from that environment.

Agreed. The point was that the limited variations would have been enough to bring the book into balance from being overly complex in the way they conveyed that it was... that is to say to bring it inline with the other codices of the day the reduced variation would have been enough. GW's failed reinvention was just flawed. Now for the next codex, you can move back in the direction of 3.5ed, but you can't go as far back to the extreme that book did, or you just repeat its flaws.

People want everything that was in the 3.5ed book. There is nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is expecting it all in one book and I've been fairly consistent when someone says they want something that its going to be at the expense of something else. My baseline for saying its too much is when you start putting back too much.

This is what's in my head... given the limited amount of space and GW's desire to always add "new"...
You can have any 2 of these in a single book, 3 if you're willing to take a compromised version:
Legions
Daemons
Renegades
Marks
Expanded Cults
Veteran skills
LatD cultists

DAaddict, I took that list in a team tournament last summer, it performed TERRIBLY. Unreasonably so, didn't really make much sense. Epi was either getting gibbed before the tally could really kick in or we simply weren't killing enough with our nurgle marked units (which constituted 90% of our list) to really make an impact on the game. The one time we saw some success with it though... hehehe, nothing like a unit of nurglings killing a wraithlord... unfortunately that was pretty much the only time the tally did anything for us.

I could see the termie sprue being split in to two, tzentch and slenesh one and khorne and nurgle the other mabe (not too sure how the wargear would work out paring these kits up) sort of like the standard termies and assault termies for SM.

chaos0xomega wrote:DAaddict, I took that list in a team tournament last summer, it performed TERRIBLY. Unreasonably so, didn't really make much sense. Epi was either getting gibbed before the tally could really kick in or we simply weren't killing enough with our nurgle marked units (which constituted 90% of our list) to really make an impact on the game. The one time we saw some success with it though... hehehe, nothing like a unit of nurglings killing a wraithlord... unfortunately that was pretty much the only time the tally did anything for us.

That is a sad tale... Just the thought of facing that would scare the bejebus out of anyone...

Who's asking for Veteran skills? Those went out the window a long time ago, and while sadly missed, they wouldn't add to the army as a whole.

And renegades are getting their own dex aren't they? or at least the rumors say they are.

Its just for the sake of thoroughness, to include anything cut or that might be cut. Simply the matrix also applies to any future "Renegades" update as well.

aka_mythos wrote: Even when it did 3.5ed codex and everyone was happy that created severe imbalance in the game as a whole and showed it was overly complex to have 10+ distinct rule altering flavors in a single book.

But again the 3.5 dex wasn't overly complex at all. It's a myth that it is was. The flavors are what makes it a great book, because there are so many different viable ways to play. Look at IG now. It's powerful but you either have to play a power blob horde army, or have 3 manticores, and 3 vendettas, in a mechanized army. Any deviation is bad. The 3.5 dex COVERED you if you wanted to play any legion, any renegade force, daemon summoning, and with LaTD you got the true cult/masses of chaos deal. If the fourth book had been 3.5 book, with rules update plus LatD enteries no one would of said a thing.

It's like having a good tall glass of cold Guiness and someone comes by drinks 3/4ths of it and then fills the rest with water and gives it back to you.

Vermillion wrote:

But theres the danger of chaos specifically becoming too complex.
Some people want daemons, some all traitor marines other cultists rising up, some with triator guardsmen/PDF in with those cultists/marines, others a mix. Then there is also rules for specific legions, mix and match legions and cults, then ofcourse custom lords, princes etc. And within that complexity even if they do manage to get it into a single codex, you can bet there won't be balance because there is simply too much of a workload for it all to be playtested thoroughly. (bear with me and just assume this is reasonable practical people making this). Even as far back as 2nd edition a single chaos lord could be nigh on unkillable at a very high points cost, and kill anything it went for and win games by itself, be careful what we wish for. Or better yet, make GW give me a developers job, I'll bring back customise your own characters and no need for compulsory special characters!

Point taken, but 3.5 dex had that and it wasn't complex at all. Maybe the dex was a tiny bit op but if they made it fit before why can't they make it fit now?

aka_mythos wrote:GW's failed reinvention was just flawed. Now for the next codex, you can move back in the direction of 3.5ed, but you can't go as far back to the extreme that book did, or you just repeat its flaws.

People want everything that was in the 3.5ed book. There is nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is expecting it all in one book and I've been fairly consistent when someone says they want something that its going to be at the expense of something else. My baseline for saying its too much is when you start putting back too much.

This is what's in my head... given the limited amount of space and GW's desire to always add "new"...
You can have any 2 of these in a single book, 3 if you're willing to take a compromised version:
Legions
Daemons
Renegades
Marks
Expanded Cults
Veteran skills
LatD cultists

But again, bottom line 3.5 had very very very very very few flaws.

And your example is flawed as well. 3.5 covered legions, renegades, and daemons fine enough as it was. Rules wise IMHO a marine is a marine but what makes a marine a chaos marine IS the 5 marks.
The marks are as intergal as ATSKNF is to loyal marines. Now I can do without sillier things like a rule to make Raptors a troops choice (fluff wise yes they are a cult onto themselves, but still a very disjointed and individualistic one.) and Oblits as troops while terrifing and intriguing is something I can live without. It would be easy then to make a dex that covered Legions, Daemons, Renegades (though to me renegades encompass not only chaos but also the marines that say 'up yours' to both Emperor AND Chaos, but that's again IMHO.), Marks, Vet skills (as really that's what five lines of text tops for a Chosen unit?), and LaTD cultists.

I agree with Mythos, to some extent.

Yes the interne Balance of 3.5 was a bit Jeopardized, but it could have been easely fixed.

And all in all, it was the only issue!.

Nearly all units where usefull, maybe the Rubrics did suffered a bit, because lets face it, since the beginning GW as always had troubles with those...

But even soo everything just fited nicely in the book, sure it was one of the largesdt Codex at the time, but its proof that they could do it.

Even now SM codex is a 200 page thick book, while we stand with a 90pages...

So you can't say that it doesn't work.

Now i agree there was too much, but like i allready said somewhere else, they could just have trimmed a bit and it wouldn't have hurt that much.

The biggest argument of the book complexity is the sheer number of Options, now there was normal Wargear, Wargear of the Gods, Mutations, Powers,Veterans Skills and Deamon Weapons, that maked like a good 200 options...

But more then 60% of those, wheren't that usefull, they where there just for the fun of it and for the modelling potential they offered!

Now take like 8 or 9 Mutations, only accesible to HQ's and Elites choices, a Few Veteran Skills, the Wargear of the Gods( it was not the most populated area of the options,...4-5 specific options at best, make it that it doesn't go aboce a say 60-ish options in total with everything, but when i say that i speak of Real Chaotic options!, and it is far more acceptable and less cluthered.

The problem is that CSM is allready a sort of Dobbleganger of SM, and that the Mutations and Gods wargear and deamons whas what really made them different, and not just "another SM Chapter", take of everything of it, and leave just useless Deamon Weapons, was not the best idea.

And even so, when i read the excusses of Gav and Alessio about they though they would make a Legion codex after it..., so why did they cut off things like Ornemental Spikes, or Infernal Engine, or even the ability to gove Lesser deamons some upgrades, or even the Wargear of the Gods?

Even with all thoses excusses, for me there is nothing who can explain this bad writhing.

But to come back to the matter at hand, yes too much was too much, but nothing at all is also too much!

Now if like you said they don't grant some kind of acces to troops Deamons, then maybe we will se the birth of new types of units, now i'm all for it!, i like new things if they make my games more interresting.

I just hope that they take the Dark Eldar Codex as an example of a good writen Codex..., because damn DE is a really pleasant codex to read and to play with, and it also have a large aray of diversity in its units choices, i din't see since they came out two army who are enterly identical, wich for me is a proof that this book is really good, and i do hope that the Legion codex would be of this quality.

Let's not get our terms mixed up here folks:

The 3.5 'Dex was complex (as in intricate) but It wasn't complicated (as in difficult). Let's just be clear on that.

Medium of Death wrote:
I'd probably opt for oodles of these though.

Spoiler:

Edited for clarity.

As much as I love he death guard bits...The legs let them down big time :/

Yeah, I'm an anti-fan of the plastic CSM terminator box. Too black-legion-specific, not enough options, not enough wargear options... just a mess in general.

I suppose if I got some legion specific bits from FW I could make the legs more legion specific?

Well, those conversion kits are just for the torso, head, and shoulderpads. All the Chaos ones are. It's much more jarring with Nurgle stuff than Khorne stuff though, since the top half is all bulgy and rotting and the legs are pristine.

LazzurusMan wrote:I suppose if I got some legion specific bits from FW I could make the legs more legion specific?

Sadly no because the the conversion kits are only upper body. Like Brother SRM said, it looks particularly weird when the upper armor is a big departure from "standard" chaos aka "spikey loyalist armor".

ph34r wrote:

LazzurusMan wrote:I suppose if I got some legion specific bits from FW I could make the legs more legion specific?

Sadly no because the the conversion kits are only upper body. Like Brother SRM said, it looks particularly weird when the upper armor is a big departure from "standard" chaos aka "spikey loyalist armor".

No, I think he means convert the legs to be more legion specific, which, of course, can be done. I did it by drilling holes of various sizes in the legs and cutting the feet to have the "hoof" look of the older plaguemarines. You can check mine out in my gallery; I think they turned out pretty good. That said, full sets like the pre-heresy kits would be awesome. Here's hoping that GW does kits for Noise Marines and 1k Sons, so they get full kits, and in plastic. It would probably finally push me over the edge to start a Slaanesh faction, which I had plans for way back in 2nd Edition before becoming a lifelong Nurgle devotee.

Are anyone hoping for a price cut for the four god specific legions....or at least a ton of more options

Hope the legion dudes are cheaper pts wise.

Thats what put me off doing Noise marines last time I was looking for a new army, they cost more pts than a Gk Strike squad guy and really they just dont come close to as good as a GK troop.

I think Gk troops set the bar for how many pts good elite type troops should be, so I would either like legion guys to be similar pts and similar awesomeness or cheaper but not as great.

Slayer le boucher wrote:The problem is that CSM is already a sort of Doppelganger of SM, and that the Mutations and Gods wargear and daemons whas what really made them different, and not just "another SM Chapter", take of everything of it, and leave just useless Deamon Weapons, was not the best idea.

And even so, when I read the excuses of Gav and Alessio about they though they would make a Legion codex after it..., so why did they cut off things like Ornamental Spikes, or Infernal Engine, or even the ability to gove Lesser daemons some upgrades, or even the Wargear of the Gods?

Even with all thoses excusses, for me there is nothing who can explain this bad writhing.

But to come back to the matter at hand, yes too much was too much, but nothing at all is also too much!

+1 to this.

As HBMC has said, the CSM codex was complex but not complicated to use. It’s only issue IMO was that there was “too much synergy” between the daemonic mutations and veteran abilities. Strangely enough this is almost exactly the same issue that the current BA and GK codex suffers from.

At the end of the day, I would want another rehash of the current CSM book. I agree that Gav and Alessio have little excuse for the mess (as it is a classic case of bad game design). The fact that Alessio writes for Mantic is one of the reasons why I avoid Mantic with a 10 foot pole.

chaos0xomega wrote:DAaddict, I took that list in a team tournament last summer, it performed TERRIBLY. Unreasonably so, didn't really make much sense. Epi was either getting gibbed before the tally could really kick in or we simply weren't killing enough with our nurgle marked units (which constituted 90% of our list) to really make an impact on the game. The one time we saw some success with it though... hehehe, nothing like a unit of nurglings killing a wraithlord... unfortunately that was pretty much the only time the tally did anything for us.

If anything Epi only seems to really shine in Apocalypse games when allied with a Nurgle based CSM army.

Nothing is more hilarious that Terminators with armour ignoring combi-bolters rapid firing at Honour Guard.

KingmanHighborn wrote:But again the 3.5 dex wasn't overly complex at all. It's a myth that it is was. The flavors are what makes it a great book, because there are so many different viable ways to play. Look at IG now. It's powerful but you either have to play a power blob horde army, or have 3 manticores, and 3 vendettas, in a mechanized army. Any deviation is bad. The 3.5 dex COVERED you if you wanted to play any legion, any renegade force, daemon summoning, and with LaTD you got the true cult/masses of chaos deal. If the fourth book had been 3.5 book, with rules update plus LatD enteries no one would of said a thing.

It's like having a good tall glass of cold Guiness and someone comes by drinks 3/4ths of it and then fills the rest with water and gives it back to you.

It's more like someone tried to give you a pint in a shot glass. Tastes great but you wasted alot.

I think the way HBMC already put it best. I never said it wasn't a great book, but it had to fit into a landscape with other codices and it failed to do that. So no matter how good the book was by itself it failed with regards to the entire game. Its not a myth that it was complex, but even if it were a myth, its the stated reason that GW had problems with the book. Good or bad, in the least it was the most complex codex of the day.

KingmanHighborn wrote:
But again, bottom line 3.5 had very very very very very few flaws.

This is purely an issue of volume. Until you accept the simple reality that GW doesn't want to cram in as much stuff into a book as the 3.5 ed codex, you can't understand how they see it was flawed. You're sticking your head in the sand by ignoring what GW's design studio stated. You can place the 3.5ed codex on a pedestal and regard it as the epitome of codices, but you'll be ignoring that GW considered it a failure.

KingmanHighborn wrote:
And your example is flawed as well.

Its not an example. Its a explanation of my rationale. It is to show that in the current landscape of codices GW's only willing to have so many option, only so much complexity.

KingmanHighborn wrote:
3.5 covered legions, renegades, and daemons fine enough as it was. Rules wise IMHO a marine is a marine but what makes a marine a chaos marine IS the 5 marks.

And now all three of those will be separate books; that only underscores the degree GW felt the 3.5 codex was just too compact.

Rules wise, why do marks exist?-It is as matter of distinction, to give a unit a variety of play styles and capabilities. Abstractly, if as a result of other special rules and other abilities, a unit has "enough" variety of play styles and capabilities, should it be given more just for the sake of historic precedence?-No, because to do so ignores game balance.

KingmanHighborn wrote:
The marks are as intergal as ATSKNF is to loyal marines.

A fixture of chaos, maybe. I might agree with you if marks singular special rule applied to the army as a whole. Its mutable, its an upgrade and ATSKNF is not.

aka_mythos wrote:...but you'll be ignoring that GW considered it a failure.

When did they say that?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:...but you'll be ignoring that GW considered it a failure.

When did they say that?

They've stated it a few times, but than again they've stated the current codex was a failure, they also stated Chaos Daemons was a failure as well. So to say the only real opinion that matters is the players. As GW's opinion on things at this point, like Jarvis and his moral crusade that's literally in the Ogre Kingdoms FAQ, are complete and utter

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:...but you'll be ignoring that GW considered it a failure.

When did they say that?

When they said it was too complex... that is by their admission something they considered a design failure.

I recently played a game against a friend who plays blood angels and after talking to him i asked if i could use my 3.5 dex which he said fine to. The game was not only more fun but my army (im terrible at armylists lol) managed to get a draw against him. The codex is still playable and competetive so if the next one us like that just not as complex i'll be all the more happy for it XD

I'm hoping that when we see the army listing for 'cultist' it is a bit more expansive than the last time around.

I'm also hoping it is something more along the line of 'traitor guard' as opposed to 'shirtless skirt wearing lunatic that really wants to work with Word Bearers instead'.

You know, something to maybe more accurately address the somewhat updated Alpha Legion background of infiltration and blending in... I hope!

Either way, I know that's what my "cultists" will look like!

Alpharius wrote:I'm hoping that when we see the army listing for 'cultist' it is a bit more expansive than the last time around.

I'm also hoping it is something more along the line of 'traitor guard' as opposed to 'shirtless skirt wearing lunatic that really wants to work with Word Bearers instead'.

You know, something to maybe more accurately address the somewhat updated Alpha Legion background of infiltration and blending in... I hope!

Either way, I know that's what my "cultists" will look like!

You should look at getting the Siege at Vraks books then .

They talk about the Alpha legion and even includes special rules for Alpha Marines such as infiltration to be used in a renegade militia army.

ph34r wrote:

LazzurusMan wrote:I suppose if I got some legion specific bits from FW I could make the legs more legion specific?

Sadly no because the the conversion kits are only upper body. Like Brother SRM said, it looks particularly weird when the upper armor is a big departure from "standard" chaos aka "spikey loyalist armor".

I can't be alone in thinking, I'd be happy if Forgewold just did complete cult terminators on the same par as Zhufor, but charged between £14-19 a model depending on weapons. For the cost of the Chaos termintor plastics box to complete the figs, I'd be happy to pay the extra for solid figs that really looked the part.

I wouldn't say you're alone, but you're in a minority since the majority wouldn't like to see this hobby become any more unaffordable.

Alpharius wrote:I'm hoping that when we see the army listing for 'cultist' it is a bit more expansive than the last time around.

I'm also hoping it is something more along the line of 'traitor guard' as opposed to 'shirtless skirt wearing lunatic that really wants to work with Word Bearers instead'.

You know, something to maybe more accurately address the somewhat updated Alpha Legion background of infiltration and blending in... I hope!

Either way, I know that's what my "cultists" will look like!

I think all depends on how GW decides to distinguish the different groups of chaos followers and where they choose to include them.

Cultists are those who actively worship Chaos, while Traitors are those who for a variety of reasons flip sides. There are a variety of cultists and obviously with Traitors coming from many different places they'd have varied skill sets.

If there is a Legions book, it makes sense that they'd tend only to have Cultists, while Renegades would have access to both. The different skill sets that Alpha Legion cultists had, really make more sense to me as skills that Traitors as opposed to Cultist should have. Given a Legion armies general emphasis on Veterans and by extension more elite than basic Chaos Space Marines, they could end up being an "Elite" low model count army... and I could imagine Cultists filling a role similar to that of Inquisitorial Henchmen as a more varied mix of characters. As such allowing the inclusion of Witches, Daemon possesd mortals, and similarly characteristically Cultist elements that have been nearly completely ignored. Traitors remain a bit more conventional with the benefits of skills and possibly marks.

GW didn't and isn't moving fast enough to get a new Chaos Space Marine book out. It should have been released a long time ago, considering the popularity of the army.

After a lot of thought and contemplation, I am going to retire Chaos Space Marines for now. I am sick of playing the same list over and over, because that is the
only competitive option in the book. The recent FAQ concerning Lash and Warp Time sealed the deal.

They are going up on the top shelf of my closet. I will be playing Dark Eldar and Grey Knight for now. Both of those armies have lot's of interesting builds, and are much more
fun to play.

Once the new codex comes out, I will reevaluate, but it better be really, really good.

Yak9UT wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I'm hoping that when we see the army listing for 'cultist' it is a bit more expansive than the last time around.

I'm also hoping it is something more along the line of 'traitor guard' as opposed to 'shirtless skirt wearing lunatic that really wants to work with Word Bearers instead'.

You know, something to maybe more accurately address the somewhat updated Alpha Legion background of infiltration and blending in... I hope!

Either way, I know that's what my "cultists" will look like!

You should look at getting the Siege at Vraks books then .

They talk about the Alpha legion and even includes special rules for Alpha Marines such as infiltration to be used in a renegade militia army.

I have heard that before and I really do need to check it out, but it becomes the typical "I can't possibly let you use that most likely overcosted underpowered FW list in this game!" problem!

aka_mythos wrote:I wouldn't say you're alone, but you're in a minority since the majority wouldn't like to see this hobby become any more unaffordable.

Alpharius wrote:I'm hoping that when we see the army listing for 'cultist' it is a bit more expansive than the last time around.

I'm also hoping it is something more along the line of 'traitor guard' as opposed to 'shirtless skirt wearing lunatic that really wants to work with Word Bearers instead'.

You know, something to maybe more accurately address the somewhat updated Alpha Legion background of infiltration and blending in... I hope!

Either way, I know that's what my "cultists" will look like!

I think all depends on how GW decides to distinguish the different groups of chaos followers and where they choose to include them.

Cultists are those who actively worship Chaos, while Traitors are those who for a variety of reasons flip sides. There are a variety of cultists and obviously with Traitors coming from many different places they'd have varied skill sets.

If there is a Legions book, it makes sense that they'd tend only to have Cultists, while Renegades would have access to both. The different skill sets that Alpha Legion cultists had, really make more sense to me as skills that Traitors as opposed to Cultist should have. Given a Legion armies general emphasis on Veterans and by extension more elite than basic Chaos Space Marines, they could end up being an "Elite" low model count army... and I could imagine Cultists filling a role similar to that of Inquisitorial Henchmen as a more varied mix of characters. As such allowing the inclusion of Witches, Daemon possesd mortals, and similarly characteristically Cultist elements that have been nearly completely ignored. Traitors remain a bit more conventional with the benefits of skills and possibly marks.

I agree - I am just hoping that I'll be able to arm them with something a little better than laspistols and CCW's this time around (though the ability to Infiltrate was nice).

Within the confines of a Legion codex, such an Inquisitor henchmen styled Cultist units would likely make sense to include other weapon options in the form of one of the model types being akin to blood pact.

That would be fine by me!

aka_mythos wrote:I wouldn't say you're alone, but you're in a minority since the majority wouldn't like to see this hobby become any more unaffordable.

Aye, tis a fair comment, but we are talking about Forgeworld, that stuff is expensive regardless, and anyone who buys from them know that before the step a foot in the door. Heck, I brought three Lascannons and a sensor thingy for £15 the other week just to save me the hassle of doing a Vendetta conversion.

I just think for the minor increase on what you are spending anyways, another £5-8 a model would be well worth it if it made every member of your cult squad look as cool as Zhufor.


Also, I like the Imperial Henchman idea, would be interesting to see some Chaos equivilents, alhough I'd echo Alphs sentiments about more than a Pistol and CCW this time. Would allow me to use my Small scattering of Traitor Guard conversions I did for fun last year for Just Daves revisions.

(Although I'm guessing I won't get to use my Traitor Leman Russ. )

So... any actual rumors, about the new book?

For those that are lazy... reposted once again:

Kroothawk wrote:Darnok over at Warseer posted this by an anonymous source:

Concerning Chaos:

- the book is done and almost at the printers
- an Iron Warriors character (?) has been seen, with a huge servo harness
- possible new Obliterators (plastic or Finecast?)
- painted versions of all 4 cult terminators have been sighted - could be conversions though
- plastic Plaguebearers on round bases have been sighted

Also Hastings confirmed Chaos to be in the 6th edition starter set, including a Plastic Dreadnought and traitors/cultists

Kroothawk wrote:

straightsilver wrote:I do understand that there are some things in 40K that don't need to be expanded ad infinitum as your example proves.

However there is a big difference between Chaos Space Marines (Renegades) and Chaos Legionnaires, and this used to be represented in the Codex before last.

GW in their great wisdom (or rather Jervis and Alessio) decided that that particular Codex was way too complicated and as part of their over simplification drive took a chain axe to it and stripped out what was essentially all the best bits.

The intention was to seperate Renegades and Legionnaires and hopefully release a Legions Codex at a later date, as they have said in interviews since.

They realised immediately that the Chaos Space Marines Codex was massively over simplified and set to work straight away to begin planning the Legions Codex.

Chaos Space Marine Renegades are small roving war bands of Chaos Marines who have either spilt from their original Legion (Fabius Bile, Kharn, Ahriman etc), or are Loyalist marines disillusioned with the Imperium who have turned traitor (Huron Blackheart).

Over time they have picked up some influence from Chaos, but are made up of disparate bands of warriors.

Admittedly the curve ball is having Black Legion and Abaddon in the CSM Codex and I am not sure what will happen there.


The Legions however are those who took part in the Heresy and have been fighting the long war ever since.

These are not simple roving war bands engaging in hit and run raid across the Imperium, but the remnants of full Legions.

As an example Iron Warriors have access to artillery (usually Basilisks), Daemon Engines and Dark Mechanicus.

Alpha Legion have bands of cultists or the ability to infiltrate into society.

World Eaters have blood crazed Marines riding Juggernauts into battle.

etc, etc.

All of this used to be represented in the CSM Codex but was removed. The idea is to try to get this flavour back in one way or another.

Chaos players felt very hard done by with the last CSM Codex, they had these differences and they were taken away, what they were left with were closer to Renegades than Legionnaries.

Alessio and Jervis have both sad that they would like the CSM Codex to stay as Renegades, and to release another Codex which would address the Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, World Eaters, Emperor's Children etc.

I may of course be completely wrong, the next Codex might just be a rehash of the current one and replace it, but that's not what I have heard.

All sounds good. The idea, I suppose, is that the Black Legion- which I used to regard as sort of Sue-ish due to its huge numbers- has the downside of having very few of its original members left.
Also, the whole idea of "these ARE your grandfather's Space Marines, and they're a lot tougher than yours" is why I'm making my Word Bearers with Forge World kits.

I meant new rumors. I've read the OP several times. Thanks though. Lol

Kroothawk wrote:Darnok over at Warseer posted this by an anonymous source:

Concerning Chaos:

- the book is done and almost at the printers
- an Iron Warriors character (?) has been seen, with a huge servo harness
- possible new Obliterators (plastic or Finecast?)
- painted versions of all 4 cult terminators have been sighted - could be conversions though
- plastic Plaguebearers on round bases have been sighted

Also Hastings confirmed Chaos to be in the 6th edition starter set, including a Plastic Dreadnought and traitors/cultists

"painted versions of all 4 cult terminators have been sighted - could be conversions though
- plastic Plaguebearers on round bases have been sighted"

I don't buy it. Someone can easily take a cell phone picture and post it.

There is no credibility to any of this.

Not saying I believe it, but depending on GW studio policy that might not be possible. I know I've been places before where all electronic devices were confiscated for the duration of my stay to prevent pics of forthcoming product from leaking out

Hastings also confirmed plastic raptors. I haven't worked through all older rumours, as they are mostly by ghost21 and theDarkgeneral and I am sceptical on those rumours.

I could see the plastic stuff, and an Iron Warriors character, but I'll be very surprised if the next book has rules for god-specific Termies. I'd love to see it, though.

Am I the only one that wants Defiler's to get more then 'just' a battlecannon mounted to them? Cause personally I 'WANT' to use them as backline artillery, with the claws and assault potential being a discouragement to melta rushes. Something like Leman Russ turrent variants for example would be most pleasing.

Kroothawk wrote:Hastings also confirmed plastic raptors. I haven't worked through all older rumours, as they are mostly by ghost21 and theDarkgeneral and I am sceptical on those rumours.

I'm skeptical of Dark General as well... it just sounds a bit too wishlisty. Although, if Khorne berserkers on juggernauts are indeed in the book as he asserts, I'll be thrilled.

Kroothawk wrote:Hastings also confirmed plastic raptors. I haven't worked through all older rumours, as they are mostly by ghost21 and theDarkgeneral and I am sceptical on those rumours.

I am skeptical on any rumors that are not backed by pictures.
It is too easy to make stuff up, and you don't know who you can trust.

Ghost21 made me loose more faith in humanity. 40K Rumors = Bogus without pictures

Kairos wrote:Ghost21 made me loose more faith in humanity.

Then you take this far too seriously.

Kairos wrote:40K Rumors = Bogus without pictures

Not really. We've had pictureless rumours for years, and so many of them have turned out right. We knew most of what was in the GK Codex before we even got a blurred picture of the Dreadknight.