We know GW have being steadily driving out their vet customers, replacing with the very new type of customers with
unwavering faith and loyalty, and the ability to soak up the propaganda like a sponge.
You may think Im just kidding, but really? Because which corporation doesn't want this type of customers?
I know I do, does it not make sense with everything GW is doing?
Here we have customer ID 233ba94k and his testimony on GW's latest product.
( sorry but try to sit through the entire clip )
I’ll have to agree with Lunahound’s theory. From a business perspective, any business would want blindly faithful customers. The question is though whether this was 100% intentional (or was it initially unintentionally achieved). Even still, GW’s financials have been on a steady decline for quite a few years now so I’ll say that it’s yet to pay off for GW.
It will be cheaper?!? Good luck with that kid. GW have 'copyright' on the Finecast material so that other companies can't use it?!? I actually want that to be right more than the price thing. Please keep that stuff away from models I would want to buy.
Harriticus wrote:GW probably has an Arbites Judge with a bolt pistol pointed at the kids head off camera. Hence the clear distress and confusion in his eyes.
Or the "clear distress and confusion in his eyes" is because it's a kid. Many kids aren't very good at doing what could be deemed as "public speaking".
And to be fair to the kid, he's about on par with some of the video blogs posted by adults that you'll see. Heck, some are even "professional reviewers" who do that for a living and behave the same.
With that said, this thread is nothing but an adolescent of the same age bracket, thinking they're "more informed" because they spend their time criticizing the same thing this kid posted a video lauding, poking fun at someone they saw on the Internets.
Behold, everyone over the age of 20 who plays GW games! This is who the games and models are designed to be sold towards.
By the way, someone should drop in and give him a line to Dakka. Then we can all place bets on how long it'll take to get him to make an anti-GW video.
LunaHound wrote:We know GW have being steadily driving out their vet customers, replacing with the very new type of customers with
unwavering faith and loyalty, and the ability to soak up the propaganda like a sponge.
You may think Im just kidding, but really? Because which corporation doesn't want this type of customers?
I know I do, does it not make sense with everything GW is doing?
Here we have customer ID 233ba94k and his testimony on GW's latest product.
( sorry but try to sit through the entire clip )
I thought he was going to say something near the end like "Lol, no, they're actually pieces of gak. Funny video, eh? I bet you thought I loved GW, lol"
Cheaper? Invincible? Great for the community? hhehehehehehehehehehehe.
I agree luna. I wish I would've picked this game up in the early 90s so I could see the full picture of the scenario.
lol, poor kid. For all we know a GW staff member cornered him in the back of the store and made him record this. "Here, read this script, it'll only take a couple minutes and we'll give you 10% off a Finecast blister. Argh, no, try to be a little more excited...eh, feth it, that's good enough."
I'd really hate to think the kid did this all on his own, anyway, to think that he could really be that naive and/or stupid. I really like the part where cheaper material is "good for everyone"...I guess he didn't notice how the prices went up when Finecast came out, and will only ever continue to go up since that's what GW corporate learned in Backwards Economics class in whatever bs private school for rich, privileged kids they went to. This video almost makes me genuinely angry, I mean listen to that kid, it almost sounds like he was brainwashed. This is why GW has tried so hard to make their brand "for kids" and told the rest of us to feth off, because young, impressionable kids are the only ones who will listen to their bs.
Oh look. Lunahound made a thread to bash GW. This isn't payback for everyone thinking that Mantic Skellies (rightfully) look like gak, is it? 'Cause that's what it feels like.
Let me name the ways that OP is wrong.
1) GW does not, as you seem to imply, brainwash little kids to liking their products.
2) GW customers do not have ID numbers. This isn't 1984.
3) The video is obviously fake in some fashion, probably some kid wanting to get attention, or someone having him read a script.
GW doesn't want to alienate anyone. It's why the vets are getting a bunch of blasts from the pasts from places like FW and BL. Hell, with the 25th Anniversary model and the GD model, they seem like they're apologizing!
Chowderhead wrote:GW doesn't want to alienate anyone.
They're doing a bad job of it then, in my opinion. It's going to take more than a couple of throwback models (in Finecast no less) to make up for years of bs.
Chowderhead wrote:Oh look. Lunahound made a thread to bash GW. This isn't payback for everyone thinking that Mantic Skellies (rightfully) look like gak, is it? 'Cause that's what it feels like.
Let me name the ways that OP is wrong.
1) GW does not, as you seem to imply, brainwash little kids to liking their products.
2) GW customers do not have ID numbers. This isn't 1984.
3) The video is obviously fake in some fashion, probably some kid wanting to get attention, or someone having him read a script.
GW doesn't want to alienate anyone. It's why the vets are getting a bunch of blasts from the pasts from places like FW and BL. Hell, with the 25th Anniversary model and the GD model, they seem like they're apologizing!
I don't think the video is obviously fake; that being said, I agree that the reaction to it is pretty overblown. Some people may like Games Workshop for stupid reasons, but that goes for almost any company. Personally, as a hobbyist and gamer with 10+ years of experience, including games and models from GW and from other manufacturers, I believe that Games Workshop as it stands today is doing a great job and that 40k is better than ever. Every recent GW Codex release has been great, and for once I feel that the older armies aren't really being left out to dry.
As for Finecast, to be honest I love it. If GW released a Finecast update to the Thunderfire Cannon, I would immediately purchase 1-2. I think the light weight and ease of assembly and conversion that Finecast offers greatly outweighs the downsides. Is it the One True Material that all others must be compared to? Nah. But it does strike me as a big improvement over metal, and the game store owners I've spoken to in my area report that Finecast sells very well indeed! To be honest, the Internet complaints about Finecast don't seem to match the real impact and value of the material.
Kanluwen wrote:With that said, this thread is nothing but an adolescent of the same age bracket, thinking they're "more informed" because they spend their time criticizing the same thing this kid posted a video lauding, poking fun at someone they saw on the Internets.
Nah, this thread applauds GW's success and it's tactical decision to picking out the new wave of customers to replace.
Which as many have pointed out, share too much coincidence with what GW business plan is following.
So is that your attempt to thinly veil ( or no veil at all ) a personal attack.
Chowderhead wrote:Oh look. Lunahound made a thread to bash GW. This isn't payback for everyone thinking that Mantic Skellies (rightfully) look like gak, is it? 'Cause that's what it feels like.
Let me name the ways that OP is wrong.
1) GW does not, as you seem to imply, brainwash little kids to liking their products.
2) GW customers do not have ID numbers. This isn't 1984.
3) The video is obviously fake in some fashion, probably some kid wanting to get attention, or someone having him read a script.
GW doesn't want to alienate anyone. It's why the vets are getting a bunch of blasts from the pasts from places like FW and BL. Hell, with the 25th Anniversary model and the GD model, they seem like they're apologizing!
Wait.... what? this is the most w t f stuff I have ever read on dakka. ( and im quite serious )
What does mantic's skeleton have to do with GW's successful business plan?
Who said I dont think Mantic skeletons doesnt look weird?
Who ever said GW brain wash little kids? so because a product launch is successful, it means brain wash?
GW customer doesnt have ID, some how you didnt manage to catch thats part of a joke?
The video is fake....? no , Im sure there are tons of customers very similar to the one in the video.
Finally, it seems like your reaction is just some baseless vendetta or paranoia.
So I'll save you the trouble and make it clear so you dont have to play detective. ( biggerized so wont miss it, for now, or for the future )
1) Lunahound love GW products, minus the failure of finecast. If GW fix the issues, Lunahound is willing to love finecast as well.
2) Lunahound hates GW business model from the customer's point of view though im sure tons of people do too.
3) Lunahound loves GW business model from a corporation's point of view, I have applaud them numerous time in this thread.
Comprendez vous?
Oh more for you chowderhead, here is a list of what I have said I DISLIKE about Mantic:
1) I think mantic makes bad moves trying to save pennies ( figure of speech ) on cutting cost in painting / photographing ./ displaying their products.
2) I think mantic makes bad move in making their sci fi ( warpath ) line to be hybrid with their kings of war orcs
3) I think mantic is about to make a bad move if the corporation minis are not in plastic.
4) I think mantic made a bad move making their goblins metal.
Shame on you chowderhead, I know what my stance is in how i view GW and Mantic so I certainly dont need you guessing what I know in my head please, thank you.
Surtur wrote:It's like he just read the finecast release GW put on their website word for word. Someone get that kid some basic math and think-for-yourselfidness.
To play this angle, aren't you essentially demanding that he agree with you? Not so much think-for-yourselfedness, and more like think-out-way-itness.
Bakerofish wrote:seriously though its a KID. That level of devotion is easy for a kid to have for ANY IP.
Yes that is kind of the point right?
The haters that are hating me for pointing this out takes it as a direct offense towards GW.
Yet anyone that sees beyond the hate also agrees with that concept itself.
Anyone agrees that because IT IS natural for a kid to display all that kind of behavior is exactly why they make the best choice target to be customers.
Luna, you seem really bitter about stuff. Especially bitter about youtube videos, which are the internet-equivalent of scrawling a message on a bathroom wall in a pub.
LunaHound wrote:Yes that is kind of the point right?
The haters that are hating me for pointing this out takes it as a direct offense towards GW.
Yet anyone that sees beyond the hate also agrees with that concept itself.
Anyone agrees that its natural for a kid to display all that kind of behavior is exactly why they make the best choice of customers.
Am I right or am I right
/thread.
On a more off topic note, I’ve never understood this “us versus them” attitude that posters on Dakka tend to display sometimes. I suppose the only explanation is “this is the internetz”.
@Lunahound
Not really. You have adults who would display the same behaviors all over this forum The "KID" isnt even an ideal customer because he doesnt have a credit card.
daedalus wrote:Luna, you seem really bitter about stuff. Especially bitter about youtube videos, which are the internet-equivalent of scrawling a message on a bathroom wall in a pub.
Bitter......? Is that just assumption or biased talk against me?
Clear your mind about the video, and about me.
Lets start from a fresh state.
Would a child that:
1) has no sense on monetary worth but gets w/e bought by parents
2) is easily convinced
3) is easily influenced
4) is naive in situations
NOT MAKE THE PERFECT CUSTOMER FOR luxury goods? ^-^
Bakerofish wrote:@Lunahound
Not really. You have adults who would display the same behaviors all over this forum The "KID" isnt even an ideal customer because he doesnt have a credit card.
On dakka, we have made jokes on parents that leaves their child in GW as a cheap source of babysitting :'P
the child may not have credit card, but tons of parents are willing to spend that money to keep the child out of trouble, while being occupied, with sense of accomplishments.
Which in theory, could supposedly help the child develop to be a good person :3 (copy right, GW does not have the right to use this in their ads, even during stock meetings )
Why does this remind me of when Saddam was showing off the captured allied pilots and allowing them to confess their crimes on TV.
And of course this is the kind of customer every customer wants. The trick is that you usually have to earn customer loyalty to get zombies of this magnitude. I still don't know how GW gets people this brainwashed.
Harriticus wrote:GW probably has an Arbites Judge with a bolt pistol pointed at the kids head off camera. Hence the clear distress and confusion in his eyes.
Or the "clear distress and confusion in his eyes" is because it's a kid. Many kids aren't very good at doing what could be deemed as "public speaking".
Because I really thought there was an Adeptus Arbites Judge threatening him with a bolt pistol...
LunaHound wrote:Yes that is kind of the point right?
The haters that are hating me for pointing this out takes it as a direct offense towards GW.
Yet anyone that sees beyond the hate also agrees with that concept itself.
Anyone agrees that its natural for a kid to display all that kind of behavior is exactly why they make the best choice of customers.
Am I right or am I right
/thread.
On a more off topic note, I’ve never understood this “us versus them” attitude that posters on Dakka tend to display sometimes. I suppose the only explanation is “this is the internetz”.
I.... cannot answer that either.
All I can tell you is, that is along the same line as religion, politic mentality.
A matter of difference in scale of course, but the mentality is the same.
Which the behavior itself is older than the internetz, it can even be said to be...
Harriticus wrote:GW probably has an Arbites Judge with a bolt pistol pointed at the kids head off camera. Hence the clear distress and confusion in his eyes.
Or the "clear distress and confusion in his eyes" is because it's a kid. Many kids aren't very good at doing what could be deemed as "public speaking".
Because I really thought there was an Adeptus Arbites Judge threatening him with a bolt pistol...
I'm aware you didn't really think that, Harriticus.
It does not, however, change the fact that this is a kid doing public speaking. You can find kids his age, most likely, giving the same kind of speeches on anything from Call of Duty to Spongebob on Youtube.
I don't see the big deal about kids feeling attached enough to something to make a video about it. I view it as no different than the adults who post videos talking about their favorite TV shows, cellular phone companies, Airsoft guns, etc.
Harriticus wrote:GW probably has an Arbites Judge with a bolt pistol pointed at the kids head off camera. Hence the clear distress and confusion in his eyes.
Or the "clear distress and confusion in his eyes" is because it's a kid. Many kids aren't very good at doing what could be deemed as "public speaking".
Because I really thought there was an Adeptus Arbites Judge threatening him with a bolt pistol...
I'm aware you didn't really think that, Harriticus.
It does not, however, change the fact that this is a kid doing public speaking. You can find kids his age, most likely, giving the same kind of speeches on anything from Call of Duty to Spongebob on Youtube.
I don't see the big deal about kids feeling attached enough to something to make a video about it. I view it as no different than the adults who post videos talking about their favorite TV shows, cellular phone companies, Airsoft guns, etc.
See kan, I was wondering why you are so offended it but then, I didnt expect you to completely miss the point of this thread....
Do not tunnel on the child's speech quality...
Rather, know why such child makes the best customer for GW...
Then connect the dots to see why GW do all the things they do now...
That was difficult to watch, and not just because he couldn't manage to say 'Citadel' right at the start. I like to think that every time he makes a nervous glance off to the left of screen, he's looking at the redshirt who has his mother at knife point. That's a joke Kan. You can relax your typing fingers.
Now I'm all for a good love-in if we're going to discuss the parts of GW's products and universes that we all share and enjoy together, and the parts that have inspired us and what impact it may or may not have had on our lives, the great victories, the crushing defeats, our favourite models, our least favourite models, and so on - but I won't be involved in a self-aggrandising circle jerk that wilfully ignores the major issues that Games Workshop has as a corporate entity, nor can I sit idly by whilst men in shiny white armour try to sweep these problems under the rug.
I'm not saying the kid was doing that mind you - I don't think he knows any better - but there are people here that always do that, and one of them has his banner out in full view in this thread. He knows who he is.
Which is more tiresome? A white knight, or a person who incessantly complains about a hobby toy company, on a site devoted to that hobby, inspired by that company?
Personally I think both sides should be allowed to have their innings, but both get repetitive and annoying and reinforce one another in a cycle of "I must counter this statement which I disagree with, no matter if either of us is expressing the same opinion we have previously expressed three hundred times in these exact same words, or two thousand in similar."
In reality, of course, every "white knight" on the site openly agrees that GW makes mistakes and some mystifying moves, and ever "hater" on the site actually loves something about the game/world/models which brings them here in the first place. Each of us has both compliments and criticisms for GW. The veteran arguers, it becomes obvious, adopt more extreme positions in response to one another.
Throughout the whole video, I did not once pay attention to how he talked, how he looked.
All I paid attention to was the things he said... the ideals he believed in.
Then it hit me, out of all the things he said, same words and ideas have being posted in dakka
over and over again in the past, and present, and most likely future.
We know it, we read it, it has happened numerous times.
Im not going to debate who, or the age of those posted, because its pointless.
Because Im sure GW is strategically after children, that certain younger age group.
Ones that will buy into all that GW feed them.
Am I going to complain about it? honestly? No I wont.
Haters dont believe me? I'll tell you why.
The children, no matter how naive or innocent, or how they spend those money, are the main contributors that keep GW business up.
For aslong as I still have anything to do with GW, I will not criticize those customers that helps ( with their wallet )
So those haters that thinks this thread is about making fun of the boy? NOPE
There's a hell. Even as someone who doesn't really strongly hate or like GW, this is ridiculous.
Then again, to be fair, he is a kid. It's obvious that he's just re-iterating whatever some pro-GW white knight has told him.
Im not criticizing the boy at all. After all, I call that a "success story of GW" if anything.
Its not about liking or disliking GW either, its what it really looks like the path GW is taking with picking their new customers.
So what your saying is that GW selects it's new customers the same way cults select their victims?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mannahnin wrote:Which is more tiresome? A white knight, or a person who incessantly complains about a hobby toy company, on a site devoted to that hobby, inspired by that company?
Mannahnin wrote:Which is more tiresome? A white knight, or a person who incessantly complains about a hobby toy company, on a site devoted to that hobby, inspired by that company?
The white knight.
Agreed, they seemingly can't help but fuel the complainers... actually they fuel each other in a cycle of rage and disdain.
Surtur wrote:It's like he just read the finecast release GW put on their website word for word. Someone get that kid some basic math and think-for-yourselfidness.
To play this angle, aren't you essentially demanding that he agree with you? Not so much think-for-yourselfedness, and more like think-out-way-itness.
Reading near verbatim what GW put out is thinking for yourself? It wasn't an opinion piece. He was basically reading an advertisement.
Bakerofish wrote:are they really haters though? they like the IP, they like the game...just not the company
That's just it. I really like 40K, and a bunch of other games GW makes. And their miniatures. And their artwork ('cept for John Blanche's scribble-art). And their fluff (aside from many of the Ward-related items). But I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and pretend all is right and justified with GW - the company - and their actions towards their customer base.
How anyone can call me a hater is just laughable, given how much time and money I invest in this. I'm just not blind(ed by shiny white armour).
He's just repeating what hesbeen told and read. Finecast figured aren't magically more detailed and the bit about it being cheap (in the long run) is woeful, prepare to be disappointed!
Kids tend to show unquestioning loyalty to things because they are still developing critical faculties and still believe what adults tell them. For example, does he really think they are industructible and you can throw them on the floor? As for the prices? He's 10, he's not paying for them.
You can't pick on the kid for this, it's what kids do. Give it a few years and he'll find girls and other things and most likely give up GW.
Obviously he's the ideal customer because he trustingly accepts and parrots back all the company says and has stuff bought for him by parents.
The only question is how many of GW's customers are the same? This is the point that Kanuwlen seems to have missed, because when I first when to GW kids were an uncommon sight, it's mostly kids now.
Howard A Treesong wrote:
The only question is how many of GW's customers are the same? This is the point that Kanuwlen seems to have missed, because when I first when to GW kids were an uncommon sight, it's mostly kids now.
Loads and loads it appears. I remember one of the last times I went into my local GW (at the time of Failcast's release) and I truly had to grit my teeth and when a bunch of naive kids with the parents in tow went over the the Failcast section and were gushing over it due to GW's spiel they'd read on the company's website.
Thing is, they truly do not know that there is a critical fail with this product in so many areas. Only last week I saw a kid with a Necron army up at my local club with the same much maligned Necron Lord model from the other thread, the guy's staff was bent like some kind of banana/boomerang/something but the kid was obviously not bothered by it as he had not straightened it out.
Thing is, the kid from the video may grow up to be one of GW's white knights. We have a couple round here and they're in their thirties... So, yeah.
Poor kid, but he is just a glaring 'wargaming' example of how marketing is affecting people nowadays. Is there really any difference between this kid and people who start drooling at the merest mention of an Apple product? They all preach the benefits of there chosen product regardless of what 'haters' might think, even when there are valid points to be made e.g 1st Gen Apple products are always buggy, why would you queue for 16 hrs to get one!?!
The problem with White Knights is that their visor slit is always too narrow.
Good thread Lunahound, but I don't think many people would really doubt the argument you are making.
Anyone who has been following GW for 10 years or more, in any kind of detail, would acknowledge the changes that have happened in the company, and the change in target demographic.
Bakerofish wrote:are they really haters though? they like the IP, they like the game...just not the company
not like the anti-PP guys who hate everything from the word go.
You're drawing a false distinction. From my perspective, there is less difference between the people who complain about each game than you think. People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models. In reality most people are critical of at least SOME aspects of both companies/games. The folks who completely dump on either are a loud and annoying minority.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Bakerofish wrote:are they really haters though? they like the IP, they like the game...just not the company
That's just it. I really like 40K, and a bunch of other games GW makes. And their miniatures. And their artwork ('cept for John Blanche's scribble-art). And their fluff (aside from many of the Ward-related items). But I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and pretend all is right and justified with GW - the company - and their actions towards their customer base.
That's what's funny/sad. You and your "white knights" are absolutely the same in this. You each (rightly) feel that your actual feelings are more nuanced and balanced than you believe your "opponents'" are, but both of you go on and on expressing the less-nuanced part of your position. And accusing the other guy of being completely one-sided in his position.
Howard A Treesong wrote:He's just repeating what hesbeen told and read. Finecast figured aren't magically more detailed and the bit about it being cheap (in the long run) is woeful, prepare to be disappointed!
Kids tend to show unquestioning loyalty to things because they are still developing critical faculties and still believe what adults tell them. For example, does he really think they are industructible and you can throw them on the floor? As for the prices? He's 10, he's not paying for them.
This.
Howard A Treesong wrote:The only question is how many of GW's customers are the same? This is the point that Kanuwlen seems to have missed, because when I first when to GW kids were an uncommon sight, it's mostly kids now.
Maybe it's different in the UK (and in actual GW stores), but I rarely see kids this young into it. Even college age or teenage are definitely in the minority everywhere I play. I have been hearing this same stuff about GW turning everything toward kids for as long as I've been in the game, though (since 1998).
Mannahnin wrote:People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models.
Interesting.
What makes people "who deride the gameplay and even the models" of GW "snobs" that doesn't apply equally to people who "dislike PP and/or WM/H. . . based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game."
Is it only snobbish to criticize Games Workshop's models and gameplay?
On the subject of the video, I wonder what his Dakka user name is. I have a few guesses.
Mannahnin wrote:
You're drawing a false distinction. From my perspective, there is less difference between the people who complain about each game than you think. People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models. In reality most people are critical of at least SOME aspects of both companies/games. The folks who completely dump on either are a loud and annoying minority.
is it really a false distinction? The folks that people label as "GW-haters" are players who would profess love for the game/art/modeling aspects but hate the company. Yes they're vocal about their dislike for GW and would go out of their way to let the world know it but theyre still playing 40k games
on the otherhand i can only think of one guy whos an out-and-out Anti-Privateer Press who would go out of his way in this message board to let the world know that PP sucked in its entirety.
the folks who dislike PP for some reason or another in the board arent vocal enough to be labeled "haters"
Bakerofish wrote:Yes they're vocal about their dislike for GW and would go out of their way to let the world know it
And that's pretty much the definition of a hater. If you go out of your way to profess your feelings about it, you're overdoing it.
All extreme positions end up weakening their (maybe completely valid) points by being extreme about it.
Disagree ? Replace "hater" by "white knight" in my sentence. Though I think "fanboy" would be more appropriate.
I'm pretty sure those that buy the games but hate Gw should be described as hypocrites, but Black Knight does sound less controversial (if you ignore the connection with Martin Laurence’s piss poor film that is).
In other news GW sells to kids with or with access to disposable incomes (As evidenced by the Vid) and Coca cola targets fat people with a sweet tooth (as evidenced by the USA and most of Western Europe).
This Vid would be like holding a mirror to allot of this community, fortunately we're all cool and never fall for advertising/brainwashing and know everything about everything even and especially when new to stuff.
Hypocrites? really? thats harsh...and a good chunk of the reading/posting population here in Dakka
Well, I agree with him to a certain extent. However, people that PLAY GW's games but rant about them (a good chunk of the reading/posting population here in Dakka as you put) are not. Me? I like 40k, it's background, models and gameplay at certain times (depends what I'm in the mood for), however I think GW corporate can go sit on a railroad spike.
I do not buy GW products anymore, due to their shenanigans last year being the straw that broke the camel's back but I still play their games with the stuff I already have. This does not make me a hypocrite.
No calling anyone anything, but paying for product while bemoaning the seller seems like quite a good example of hypocrisy to me.
I don’t mind that, but I find it funny that people get quite so emotionally entwined in these discussions that they have to label camps for one another for perceived transgressions. Is that not what this thread is about?
I work for a big corporation, the gak our PLC get up to to turn a few quid is mind numbing in the detail in which they will strive to accomplish its goals.
Their turnover and profit have been pretty steady for the past 5 years, which is pretty damn good considering the world economy is in the toilet and they sell what can only be described as luxury goods.
The document is also pretty interesting to read as they have their CEO commentary on Finecast and some other organisational stuff.
Their turnover and profit have been pretty steady for the past 5 years, which is pretty damn good considering the world economy is in the toilet and they sell what can only be described as luxury goods.
The document is also pretty interesting to read as they have their CEO commentary on Finecast and some other organisational stuff.
Yes, although if you consider that profits have held to a similar level while prices have gone up, a straightforward conclusion would be that less units are being sold.
Mind you, volume of sales is hardly likely to go up when you tell a whole region of the world to 'feth off'. We also have no way of knowing how much the Finecast replacements are costing, presumably a noticeable amount if they are now reportedly asking for a return of the actual miniatures in some cases (something which has never happened before in my experience).
I think:
- Perennial price increase (more for RoW)
- Drop of quality control
- lack of marketing in any form
- secrecy surrounding new releases
- taking WD from news-stands
All of these factors reflect poorly on the decision making of the company at the executive level. It's great that GW are managing to stay afloat in these difficult times (it probably helps that the games are played in a lot of cases by people or those with parents who have had a good education, and by extension often better paying jobs), but I think most would agree that if the above were rectified even in part, they would be making a lot more sales, and the number of 'whine' threads on this forum would be reduced by a factor of 10.
Bakerofish, technically you are indeed correct, but hypocrite is one of those words that is commonly used incorrectly (another of those words is 'ironic').
I would say that people who are on the forums complaining about GW bitterly, then go onto a website and buy $300 of stuff, are indeed hypocritical.
In dictionary terms that would be an incorrect use of the word, but everyone would understand exactly what I meant when I said it.
But by the same token, just because a consumer buys product from a manufacturer, does not immediately make that manufacturer immune to criticism. Obviously there is a fine line to be drawn - personally, I would feel uncomfortable criticising something vociferously and yet still buying it but that is more to do with the fact that it is deceitful in words and action.
The point being, and has been iterated already, one can still enjoy GW games/settings/miniatures and yet still find scorn for the company, for its business practices.
unlike most of you guys I had to learn English as a second language and if a word isn't being used properly then it ISN'T being used properly. Nuance and implied meanings are taught but the above usage was just wrong.
but apparently instead of coming with a worthwhile argument other than "cuz i say so" is the norm for some so I guess I must "lose" as i can't win a fools game
Theres one thing that everyone seems to be missing.
This video seems to have been made before the finecast release. The most people knew where that it was made from resin and the paragraph GW had mentioned it with.
How can the OP base an entire, near conspiracy theory about a company with this video considering that:
A kid made the video. Kids cant have large massive opinions like all others out there. In the future when he grows up his opinions may change, or dont change.
Its before or very close to the finecast release. He cant of been brainwashed or whatever it is thats being said when a lot of what he was talking about, he didnt know too much about the product.
And generally, it is pretty much Gw's description, because that was all there was at the time! He cant go on some hour long opinion of it from about 200 words or so.
I cant see why you are complaining that GW are getting younger customers. I udnerstand that as days go by, a lot of the veteran gamers go, but then younger ones move in. Its like one big cycle (Wow that sounds cliche)
Besides, when i was new to the hobby I was just like this kid. I bought everything and believed all I heard. Now in the future I dont do that, and I have another friend whos at the same stage in the hobby I was (the buy all believe all phase) and of anything, hes worse then I am! Its just a young/new player mentality. Most children like shiny thing so buy shiny thing. You cant expect them to know better when they arent sure what is better.
lord marcus wrote:Posted a video response to which he posted a somewhat grammatically incorrect reply.
So...You posted a video critiquing a child's opinions/beliefs about a product before it comes out whereas you have hindsight in your favour...
Classy move.
curran12 wrote:Has this board really devolved into haters vs. white knights? Both of them are idiots, and act like it.
Problem is, people who hold extreme positions tend to be the most vocal, often by aggressively defending their opinion (misplaced moral commitment maybe ?).
So if an average, reasonable dude walks in, looking for factual discussions with well constructed arguments only to meet vindictive verbal vitriol or just plain stupidity, what do you think the reaction will be ?
"Uh, what's their problem exactly ? *shrugs* Heh, whatever." and he calls it a day. Because he's not on a moral crusade about the topic at hand. In the end, you don't hear his point of view often because he's the quiet majority.
But Dakka's not in such dire a state I don't recall seeing blind hatred and people do bring facts to the table when discussing. If anything, there is certainly an "echo chamber" effect, which in my experience is quite common on the internet.
On topic :
daedalus wrote:Especially bitter about youtube videos, which are the internet-equivalent of scrawling a message on a bathroom wall in a pub.
QFT.
Somebody also mentioned Apple, which is the first thing that came to my mind ; an example that sadly shows you don't need to be a minor to be a brand zealot.
Wow this is interesting, now to address a few points without naming names.
Hypocrisy: Liking a product does not mean I have to like the company. There is no loyalty to the company because I like some of the product.
Because you guys have this view, this is why the politics are so messed up. You guys dont dislike an issue because of the issue itself, you dislike them because e.g republican / democrats party.
This is why we cant have nice things.
Its irrelevant whether this vide is made before the product release although ( May 23 finecast announced may 28th finecast release, video created May 31st )
But I'll entertain your idea of what if its made "before" the release.
Easy, successful propaganda, successful hype, successful in convincing the customers BEFORE THEY EVEN SEE THE PRODUCT FOR THEMSELVES.
*ahem e.g below. Do you think any of them have any "good" experience to finecast prior to the release? when it never existed?
No? then why are they so feverish about it? because, successful GW advertisement.
blood lance wrote:Theres one thing that everyone seems to be missing.
This video seems to have been made before the finecast release. The most people knew where that it was made from resin and the paragraph GW had mentioned it with.
How can the OP base an entire, near conspiracy theory about a company with this video considering that:
A kid made the video. Kids cant have large massive opinions like all others out there. In the future when he grows up his opinions may change, or dont change.
Its before or very close to the finecast release. He cant of been brainwashed or whatever it is thats being said when a lot of what he was talking about, he didnt know too much about the product.
And generally, it is pretty much Gw's description, because that was all there was at the time! He cant go on some hour long opinion of it from about 200 words or so.
I cant see why you are complaining that GW are getting younger customers. I udnerstand that as days go by, a lot of the veteran gamers go, but then younger ones move in. Its like one big cycle (Wow that sounds cliche)
Besides, when i was new to the hobby I was just like this kid. I bought everything and believed all I heard. Now in the future I dont do that, and I have another friend whos at the same stage in the hobby I was (the buy all believe all phase) and of anything, hes worse then I am! Its just a young/new player mentality. Most children like shiny thing so buy shiny thing. You cant expect them to know better when they arent sure what is better.
You and kanluwen keep missing the point. though ironically both of you claim that we missed something.....
a) No one is attacking the child for making the video
b) You said that a child makes the mistake now, because he is a child, though his opinion might change as he grows
See those 2 points above...
What do you think this thread is about then?
Its about tactically targetting a child at their earlier "unwiser" state as a main target of customer.
Its not about criticizing children, your post just agreed why GW is doing exactly what they are doing now.
I don't know where he got the idea that GW hold the copyright on finecast resin because I've not heard that said anywhere else. For a start they buy the plastic-resin elsewhere, they haven't invented a new polymer to my knowledge, and protecting such a thing or manufacture process legally could be a bit tricky. Not saying it can't be done, but as GW haven't invented anything the point is moot.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't know where he got the idea that GW hold the copyright on finecast resin because I've not heard that said anywhere else. For a start they buy the plastic-resin elsewhere, they haven't invented a new polymer to my knowledge, and protecting such a thing or manufacture process legally could be a bit tricky. Not saying it can't be done, but as GW haven't invented anything the point is moot.
There is an extremely high chance that child goes to dakka.
As I mentioned, all of his points have being used by dakkites, and even warseer that white knighted finecast. Or perhaps all white knights think alike?
And the copy right issue, it has being brought up before, some where along the line of " the specific resin mix is tailored formula to go with GW products, eg glue, primer, paint
perhaps he took that as a copy righted formula... after all, there is no product in this universe that can rival GW's ( supposedly... or so GW says )
Interesting, its written on their own site
So, what are Citadel Finecast miniatures and why are we making the change? Quite simply, Citadel Finecast is the next step in the evolution in tabletop miniatures wargaming. From the start, Games Workshop has always innovated and sought to increase the quality of our models - Citadel Finecast is the next step in that process. There are no other miniatures that exist of this quality and manufactured on this scale in the world, and we're proud and very excited for you all to see this for yourselves.
The Citadel Finecast miniatures are all made from a unique resin formula. For us as hobbyists, this is great news. The resin is easy to work with and quick to cut off the sprue, making assembling a miniature easier than it has ever been. Not only that, but it's incredibly light too, which means pinning wings and other heavy components will be a thing of the past. So, quick and durable, that's a good start. But of course, one of the main reasons for this change to resin was quality. One thing you'll notice immediately when you pick them up is the exceptionally sharp detail on the model, which can only be described as staggering. For dedicated painters (which we all are to some extent) this is a dream come true.
Anyways, enough about finecast, there are enough threads about finecasts, as well as poll results that overrides any white knighting.
Now the question is, how probable do you guys think GW is indeed targeting this age group as their main customer audience.
will it coincide with :
-everything is space marines
-release pattern
-release price
-shinny new large models, e.g the trend now every army gets a monster or 2
-fluff pattern, everything is over the top, all the story and conflicts are done for the sake of IN YOUR FACE, matt ward style ( though I personally feels matt ward is just abiding what GW wanted him to do )
-even army book cover. gone are the elegant epic pictures of armies, followed by again, in your face subject plastered 60% of the art space. As if its targeting those with A.D.D
Hyd wrote:Problem is, people who hold extreme positions tend to be the most vocal, often by aggressively defending their opinion (misplaced moral commitment maybe ?). So if an average, reasonable dude walks in, looking for factual discussions with well constructed arguments only to meet vindictive verbal vitriol or just plain stupidity, what do you think the reaction will be ? "Uh, what's their problem exactly ? *shrugs* Heh, whatever." and he calls it a day. Because he's not on a moral crusade about the topic at hand. In the end, you don't hear his point of view often because he's the quiet majority.
You’ve hit the nail on the head. The issue isn’t so much that people have a difference of opinions (which often results in people being mislabelled as a hater or white knight) but rather the extremity of those opinions. Unfortunately on Dakka, we have quite a few posters with fairly extreme opinions and who often take offence when contrary opinions have been posted. What doesn’t help though is the “internet tough guy” style of posting that seems to be popular nowadays.
In regards to the Finecast spiel posted by Lunahound, I remember glancing over it and not thinking too much about it when it was first released. It seems quite disturbing when I read through it again today. To say the spiel is an exaggeration is to say the least.
I say one of the advantages of targeted a younger demographic is that they’re less likely to make informed decisions as a) they’re younger and lack experience (e.g. novice user who is unaware of what minimum standards should be) and b) being younger, they’re probably more naïve and more likely to believe what an adult tells them (e.g. Finecast is the best thing since sliced bread). Assuming GW have been steadily shifting towards primarily targeting a younger market over the past 5-10 years, GW probably knew that their new focus on a younger demographic would minimise the negative impact of Finecast. This is just a tin foil hat theory mind you but I wouldn’t put it past them.
candy.man wrote:[ GW probably knew that their new focus on a younger demographic would minimise the negative impact of Finecast. This is just a tin foil hat theory mind you but I wouldn’t put it past them.
That theory would work if their target demographic being young males was a new direction. This was their target demographic years ago, before they even considered switching from metal. I agree it's probably an intended benefit they had in mind, but to say it's a new direction purely for the metal switch is pretty wrong.
@Chowderhead
Did our misunderstanding get resolved or should I get into detail to clear up the accusation?
Because I really dislike false accusations
-Loki- wrote:
candy.man wrote:[ GW probably knew that their new focus on a younger demographic would minimise the negative impact of Finecast. This is just a tin foil hat theory mind you but I wouldn’t put it past them.
That theory would work if their target demographic being young males was a new direction. This was their target demographic years ago, before they even considered switching from metal. I agree it's probably an intended benefit they had in mind, but to say it's a new direction purely for the metal switch is pretty wrong.
I dont think finecast was the change in direction.
It just further reinforces + show the fruit of GW's change.
curran12 wrote:ONE VIDEO ON THE INTERNET IS THE IDEAL WAY TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT AN ENTIRE COMPANY.
I should dig up someone going on about PP and do the same thing.
This.
You guys ......... makes me speechless
The video is nothing but an GW ideal manifesting and realized into a visual media to reinforce the idea of what GW has being doing, successfully.
The ideal: GW selects type of customers that doesnt really question anything being fed by GW, will buy the products regardless, if not by naivety, then loyalty alone.
The visual: You know the type, we all know them too well. The children that you see in GW, pulling their parents in GW and buy the random thing
they were told by staff to be "cool" or very good for them. Or the type that buys it for the sake of the product being GW made. Not caring whether its good or not.
We all seen the types before, but how do you show it? Well we see the video of that pretty much portray the "subject"
So... why is it like half of the posts in this thread cant get over that concept at all?
Is it animosity?
Is it some innate human trait of pro-group protection mechanism kicking in to defend that you love?
Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Heres what I dont get....why the hell is Dakka anti-GW?
Dakka as a whole? No it's not. There are members here that love GW to the point of fanaticism, members who hate them to the point of fanaticism, and people in between.
Purifyingflame_7 wrote:Heres what I dont get....why the hell is Dakka anti-GW? Its like biting the hand that feeds.
Is it anti-GW or pro-gamer? There is a distinction. If I just said GW sucks I might be Anti GW. If I say Finecast sucks because it is a poorly thought out and produced product and is therefore not a value to gamers, well then I'm pro-gamer.
This distinction is lost on white knights that can only hear any negative as a blast at GW.
GW paints and modeling supplies are terribly high priced and much better products can be purchased for far less. Is this anti-GW or pro-gamer?
notprop wrote:I'm pretty sure those that buy the games but hate Gw should be described as hypocrites
How? For hypocrisy to exist one must say one thing and then do something that goes against what they say (or vice versa). The only way you can read hypocrisy into the actions of myself and others is if you make the flawed assumption that not liking GW = not liking 40K.
I like 40K.
I do not like GW.
These two statements are not in opposition to one another, ergo, no hypocrisy present.
notprop wrote:...but Black Knight does sound less controversial (if you ignore the connection with Martin Laurence’s piss poor film that is).
Then to avoid the connotation, can we use Dark Knight in its place?
Mannahnin wrote:That's what's funny/sad. You and your "white knights" are absolutely the same in this. You each (rightly) feel that your actual feelings are more nuanced and balanced than you believe your "opponents'" are, but both of you go on and on expressing the less-nuanced part of your position. And accusing the other guy of being completely one-sided in his position.
I don’t buy a word of that. Hell that’s a borderline golden mean fallacy right there (“You are all the same!!!”)
What’s balanced about wilfully ignoring all the things GW (the company) does or pretending that obvious flaws (eg. Finecast) don’t exist? What’s nuanced about attempting to explain away these faults as though they weren’t real?
Mannahnin wrote:People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models.
Interesting.
What makes people "who deride the gameplay and even the models" of GW "snobs" that doesn't apply equally to people who "dislike PP and/or WM/H. . . based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game."
Is it only snobbish to criticize Games Workshop's models and gameplay?
Fair point; guess I had a bit of my own prejudice showing. That being said, Warmachine is probably my second-favorite tabletop minis game, and I have a good-sized painted Cryx force I've used quite a bit (though not recently). I should have said "people", rather than snobs.
What about someone who is indifferent to PP, like myself? I own 4 PP models (for use in the 40KRPG), but the game holds no interest for me. That’s not a judgement of its quality, it’s just that I do not find it interesting. Does that make me a Grey Knight?
Ma55ter_fett wrote:…and time makes bitter cynics of us all.
Mannahnin wrote:
You're drawing a false distinction. From my perspective, there is less difference between the people who complain about each game than you think. People who dislike PP and/or WM/H usually do so based on aesthetics and/or the more-competitive/less-painted side of the game which PP oft seems to encourage. People who dislike GW are usually critical of their business practices, although there are certainly plenty of snobs who deride the gameplay and even the models. In reality most people are critical of at least SOME aspects of both companies/games. The folks who completely dump on either are a loud and annoying minority.
is it really a false distinction? The folks that people label as "GW-haters" are players who would profess love for the game/art/modeling aspects but hate the company. Yes they're vocal about their dislike for GW and would go out of their way to let the world know it but theyre still playing 40k games
on the otherhand i can only think of one guy whos an out-and-out Anti-Privateer Press who would go out of his way in this message board to let the world know that PP sucked in its entirety.
the folks who dislike PP for some reason or another in the board arent vocal enough to be labeled "haters"
thats what im trying to point out.
And my position is that the two kinds of "haters" are not really different. Our perspective on them is a bit different based on which we prefer, perhaps,. Just as biccat pointed out, I'm pretty neutral but evidently have a bit of pro-GW bias which led me to my poor word choice in "snobs".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
curran12 wrote:Whatever happened to the people who like GW, but just would appreciate it if they changed little things? Am I the last one of them?
My main point is that 99%+ of the people on this forum are in this group, if for "like GW" you read "enjoy GW's products". The vast majority of us have some criticisms of them, but like their stuff. Including Luna, HBMC and Kanluwen. Their seemingly polar opposite positions are mostly exaggerations of their real opinions, brought on by the unnecessarily combative dynamic of their interactions.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't know where he got the idea that GW hold the copyright on finecast resin because I've not heard that said anywhere else. For a start they buy the plastic-resin elsewhere, they haven't invented a new polymer to my knowledge, and protecting such a thing or manufacture process legally could be a bit tricky. Not saying it can't be done, but as GW haven't invented anything the point is moot.
There is an extremely high chance that child goes to dakka.
As I mentioned, all of his points have being used by dakkites, and even warseer that white knighted finecast. Or perhaps all white knights think alike?
Or, far more likely (and IMO obviously), the kid is just repeating the sales pitch given to him by GW staffers. Unavoidably the same good points of Finecast, both real (ease of conversion, less chipping, lighter) and false (durable) will be made by anyone repeating what GW staff have told them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Mannahnin wrote:That's what's funny/sad. You and your "white knights" are absolutely the same in this. You each (rightly) feel that your actual feelings are more nuanced and balanced than you believe your "opponents'" are, but both of you go on and on expressing the less-nuanced part of your position. And accusing the other guy of being completely one-sided in his position.
I don’t buy a word of that. Hell that’s a borderline golden mean fallacy right there (“You are all the same!!!”)
What’s balanced about wilfully ignoring all the things GW (the company) does or pretending that obvious flaws (eg. Finecast) don’t exist? What’s nuanced about attempting to explain away these faults as though they weren’t real?
That's my point. Almost no one actually does that. I've seen Kanluwen criticise GW on several occasions. Can you name me someone who defends them more than he does? Literally no one I've ever seen willfully ignores all the things GW does wrong. You are making a hyperbolic comment based on an entrenched position of opposition to what you perceive someone as saying/believing, which IMO is not really an accurate assessment of their opinions. Both because your perception is impaired, and because he is adopting an exaggerated, near devil's advocate, position in response to similar hyperbole.
I like you and I like Kanluwen, though you both drive me nuts sometimes. I see you both post mostly reasonable opinions, from my perspective.
-Loki- wrote:That theory would work if their target demographic being young males was a new direction. This was their target demographic years ago, before they even considered switching from metal. I agree it's probably an intended benefit they had in mind, but to say it's a new direction purely for the metal switch is pretty wrong.
I agree with you’re reasoning as well Loki. My post wasn’t arguing that they switched to a younger demographic specifically for finecast but rather their previous switch to a younger demographic (started years before) allowed them to minimise the damage from finecast (thus making the entire project viable). I might even go so far as to speculate that this could have been mentioned in their project risk planning.
Whilst we can list the benefits for GW switching to a younger demographic, I wonder what the core reasoning was. Personally I doubt it is due to higher revenue as their previous demographic was able to make more frequent and larger purchases. Given how lucrative entertainment products marketed at kids can be (toys and games such as Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh), perhaps GW wanted to reinvent themselves so they can have a share of this market.
Mannahnin wrote:I like you and I like Kanluwen, though you both drive me nuts sometimes. I see you both post mostly reasonable opinions, from my perspective.
I'm sure you're a lovely human being. But The video is just kid being an awkward kid gushing about his hobby and reiterating a sales pitch while shilling for attention (people to "rate, subscribe, and comment" on his video). I don't see much sign of sinister conspiracies in it.
candy.man wrote:Whilst we can list the benefits for GW switching to a younger demographic, I wonder what the core reasoning was. Personally I doubt it is due to higher revenue as their previous demographic was able to make more frequent and larger purchases. Given how lucrative entertainment products marketed at kids can be (toys and games such as Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh), perhaps GW wanted to reinvent themselves so they can have a share of this market.
Most likely because its easier to hook a 14 year old with awesome models, books and art. They see a Space Marine with a massively oversized automatic grenade launcher blowing a dinosaur cockroach to pieces and they're hooked. Show a 24 year old, and they might give it a glance, but less likely they'll be wowed into starting.
So it comes down to either easily impressionable young people spending their parents disposeable income or a harder to impress older audience with its own disposeable income. When you think about it, since there's the chance that the easily impressed younger audience will likely end up spending their own disposeable income on GW products when they're older, it's where you want to concentrate.
A science fiction game featuring action, explosions and cool-looking guns and tanks and swords and stuff is appealing to teenage boys? Really? Obviously that's a desireable demographic, but it's not as if they're not targeting us older geeks as well.
candy.man wrote:Whilst we can list the benefits for GW switching to a younger demographic, I wonder what the core reasoning was. Personally I doubt it is due to higher revenue as their previous demographic was able to make more frequent and larger purchases. Given how lucrative entertainment products marketed at kids can be (toys and games such as Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh), perhaps GW wanted to reinvent themselves so they can have a share of this market.
Most likely because its easier to hook a 14 year old with awesome models, books and art. They see a Space Marine with a massively oversized automatic grenade launcher blowing a dinosaur cockroach to pieces and they're hooked. Show a 24 year old, and they might give it a glance, but less likely they'll be wowed into starting.
So it comes down to either easily impressionable young people spending their parents disposeable income or a harder to impress older audience with its own disposeable income. When you think about it, since there's the chance that the easily impressed younger audience will likely end up spending their own disposeable income on GW products when they're older, it's where you want to concentrate.
not like the anti-PP guys who hate everything from the word go.
So your white knighting for PP?
holy leap of logic batman.
@Manhannin
yeah i think theyve got older guys locked down pretty well in their sights. To be honest the only real thing thats missing from GW games is cheesecake (unless you count Slaanesh and Sisters of Battle, and that would raise a LOT of questions if you find that appealing that way )
Actually the main response on dakka is more to do with revenue (with someone going so far to say that kids would have more disposable income than an adults). Whilst the effectiveness of marketing towards younger versus older is extremely debatable, marketing towards kids is far easier and more forgiving (kids products also require less quality as well).
Bakerofish wrote:yeah i think theyve got older guys locked down pretty well in their sights. To be honest the only real thing thats missing from GW games is cheesecake (unless you count Slaanesh and Sisters of Battle, and that would raise a LOT of questions if you find that appealing that way )
Cheesecake? I would have settled for females getting a plastic infantry kit for once.
notprop wrote:I'm pretty sure those that buy the games but hate Gw should be described as hypocrites
How? For hypocrisy to exist one must say one thing and then do something that goes against what they say (or vice versa). The only way you can read hypocrisy into the actions of myself and others is if you make the flawed assumption that not liking GW = not liking 40K.
I like 40K. I do not like GW.
These two statements are not in opposition to one another, ergo, no hypocrisy present.
I suppose not if there was not connection betwixt company and game, but there is.
As with most things on life there is compromise (just ask my Mrs! ). By your statement thats further down the scale than a full hater but to a degree hypocrisy exists. I think the problem with the term is that no one like to be labelled (were all indiviual little flowers here ) but insists on labelling all others. So White Knights vs Hypocrits......or.....
H.B.M.C. wrote:
notprop wrote:but Black Knight does sound less controversial (if you ignore the connection with Martin Laurence’s piss poor film that is).
Then to avoid the connotation, can we use Dark Knight in its place?
I concur, thats much better. I will attempt to use it when next the need arises. I will be very dramatic, you will probably need some theme music...
edited for iPhone being annoying to use with chunky fingers!
Kids also have an easier time convincing their kids friends to join.
Price is not an issue when its COOL.
Adults in the other hand, contemplates , and need to be extremely convincing to other adults of the price and "worth"
A successful grab of a child customer is a major success to GW, like a bolt of thunder splitting in the sky.
A successful grab of an adult.... well grats I guess, have fun convincing his friends as well.
Embargo.
Release Date kept in secret.
Online discount store needs to be brick and mortar.
All 3 share the same characteristics of: Making it harder for a planned purchase, while making it more sound for a Impulse buy.
Everything in this thread, ties together too perfectly for mere coincidence.
Vladsimpaler wrote:Whoever Aerethan is; you need to get laid son.
Probably some of the most pathetic internet tough-guy comments I have ever had my misfortune to read.
He's... he's got 1 comment. On page 2.
He's mad cause I was an ass to the kid on youtube. I ignore anyone who thinks that random people on the internet are virgins or tough guys. Clearly me posting negative comments on a video is proof of my supposed lack of sexual contact.
I won't apologize for what I said, I stand by it. I'm an ass, yes. I own up to that.
Hi folks.
Lets look at the financial evidence shall we?
From 1987 to 1997 GW DOUBLED its turn over every 3 years.(The focus was selling minatures by providing great game play in its range of games.)
Since Mr Tom kirby made the statement, (GW plc,) '....are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children....'
And aparently everone at GW plc thought it was a great idea..
GW plc has LOST over 40% sales volumes.
If the same amount of people were still buying GW product as they were 7 years ago, GW plc would have a turn over in excess of £230 M!
Focusing on the easiest to please customers , simply means reducing your potential customer base.
And as GW plc seem to only adress the problem of falling sales volume by increasing retail prices.
Means thier customer base will continuie to shrink.Untill GW plc starts offering better value for money.
Spending over 50% of your pre tax profits on recruitment , and less than 1 % on retension of customers, seems rather short sighted IMO.
Arm.chair.general wrote:This whole thread is pretty stupid.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.
The thread is about a 12 year old praising finecast and somehow the video has been used as an excuse to have another GW bash thread... no wonder GW doesn't take the word of its online fanbase seriously...
The stuff he is coming out with is so far out of left-field, what other response is possible?
But that wasn't the purpose of the thread - as Luna has said several times, it was more about how targeting a demographic which is open to suggestion is proving to be a successful tactic. At least with one person (as the video shows), but probably a great deal of kids.
There was something similar written on someone's blog, where a kid was waving a brand new Finecast model, practically foaming at the mouth and saying it's the best thing ever, all the while not noticing that the cast of the model was an appalling cast.
Pacific wrote:The stuff he is coming out with is so far out of left-field, what other response is possible?
As several people noted--this video came out before Finecast actually released. The only thing we knew about it at the time was that it was resin.
But that wasn't the purpose of the thread - as Luna has said several times, it was more about how targeting a demographic which is open to suggestion is proving to be a successful tactic. At least with one person (as the video shows), but probably a great deal of kids.
Then maybe, just maybe, we should note that one of the ravenous Mantic fanboys here replied to the video with a video just as long and full of the market doublespeak and fanbase "facts" as this one.
This isn't a new phenomena. Children with access to cameras allowing them to film videos for Youtube post things. Most of the time, they do nothing but parrot what they hear from "trustworthy" individuals. In this case, Finecast wasn't even released and the kid created a video lauding its properties, likely based upon what a redshirt told him.
Why?
I have no idea. The fact that Lunahound dragged up a video and used it as "proof of the targeted demographic" is nothing. You can find videos of Apple consumers standing in lines for a phone with a minimal upgrade to their current one, or customers standing in lines at midnight openings for video games. That doesn't mean that the targeted demographic is people who stand in lines.
-Loki- wrote:
Most likely because its easier to hook a 14 year old with awesome models, books and art. They see a Space Marine with a massively oversized automatic grenade launcher blowing a dinosaur cockroach to pieces and they're hooked. Show a 24 year old, and they might give it a glance, but less likely they'll be wowed into starting.
Kanluwen wrote:That's because you want to be the Space marine, Matty.
Yeah, it sucks I only got some normal body armour and a crappy kevlar helmet.
And my rifle didn't fire explosive rounds..
I wish I was born a couple thousand years later.. I'd happily live in a time of unimaginable terror and cruelty if I got to blow people up with a machine gun.
-Loki- wrote:
Most likely because its easier to hook a 14 year old with awesome models, books and art. They see a Space Marine with a massively oversized automatic grenade launcher blowing a dinosaur cockroach to pieces and they're hooked. Show a 24 year old, and they might give it a glance, but less likely they'll be wowed into starting.
Well I'm 32 and that gak impresses me.
Indeed don't get high and mighty. Thats the premise behind a whole slew of video games: Halo, Gears of War etc.???
Kanluwen wrote:That's because you want to be the Space marine, Matty.
Yeah, it sucks I only got some normal body armour and a crappy kevlar helmet.
And my rifle didn't fire explosive rounds..
I wish I was born a couple thousand years later.. I'd happily live in a time of unimaginable terror and cruelty if I got to blow people up with a machine gun.
"These are great days we're living, bros. We are jolly green giants, walking the Earth..... with guns. These people we wasted here today are the finest human beings we will ever know. After we rotate back to the world, we're gonna miss not having anyone around that's worth shooting."
notprop wrote:I suppose not if there was not connection betwixt company and game, but there is.
That doesn't make the statement hypocritical. In order for hypocrisy to be present, you have to be doing one thing whilst saying another (or something to that effect). What you are (effectively) saying is that in order to like something, you must like everything about it or, the opposite of that, that you cannot dislike one aspect of something but instead have to dislike everything about it. That's a extremely narrow all-or-nothing viewpoint, and it's not 'hypocrisy'. Disliking GW =/= disliking 40K. To believe that you cannot have one without the other is out-and-out foolish.
"I hate GW and all their policies and I will never ever buy their products again!" said the man, as the cash-register at his local GW made a 'ding' noise for his latest purchase.
That's hypocrisy.
"I hate GW and their policies and I will never ever buy their products again!" said the man, as he sat down to play a game of 40K.
This isn't even contradictory, let alone hypocritical.
Arm.chair.general wrote:This whole thread is pretty stupid.
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and consciencious stupidity.
The thread is about a 12 year old praising finecast and somehow the video has been used as an excuse to have another GW bash thread... no wonder GW doesn't take the word of its online fanbase seriously...
1)No, again, the thread is showing how impressionable and naive a young child is.
And why they make the best target customer for GW and why so much of the recent policies GW has changed, that pretty much to adapt to selling to them.
You can keep saying its "stupid" but I must honestly say, the only stupid ones are the ones that calls it stupid while completing missing the point by a galaxy.
2) So what if its just a video? its better than none. Or wait, do you guys only consider it if I make some sort of walking video documentary
seeing whether the idea is true or false? Even then, I bet there while be people moaning how a few children doesnt mean everyone etc etc.
Like, are there no children that frequents your GW? I can tell you there are tons here, and they are all just like the ones in the video.
My god, even some of the adults on this forum recite the same thing the boy did.
Im going to be blunt. People that are going to tunnel vision are going to continue to tunnel vision. If you guys want to insist on the thread being about the boy, be my guest, embarrass yourselves some more.
Also let it be on record, using the term "fanboy" is not allowed. Im looking at you kanluwen, for someone that spams report button on me for using that term, you sure have the audacity to use it on others.
Am I saying fanboys shouldnt be allowed? Irrelevant. What is relevant is, I dont want any double standards :')
Kanluwen wrote:Then maybe, just maybe, we should note that one of the ravenous Mantic fanboys here replied to the video with a video just as long and full of the market doublespeak and fanbase "facts" as this one.
If you want to play that way, that is fine with me, just dont go crying to mods whenever people do it BACK TO YOU.
Luna does raise a point. She's been banned for calling someone a 'fanboy', yet it doesn't happen in to certain others. Seems a bit of a double-standard.
We’ve been past this point before. Luna means no harm and this thread is a discussion about demographics, not the boy. I suggest the white knights take a chill pill and lower their shields. Better yet, discretion is the better part of valour.
So you're okay with posts like this being posted on the kid's Youtube video by Dakka members? Cause I'm not.
And this is how Nazi Germany came about, believing the propaganda fed to you by someone. Your blind loyalty to the almighty GW is disheartening. You clearly don't know what you are talking about here. Finecast is stronger than metal? No. Just no. And it won't ever be cheaper. Reaper makes metal models for fractions of the cost of GW finecast or even GW metals for that matter. And Reaper gets on just fine doing it. Hell there are Forgeworld resin kits that are cheaper than GW resin kits.
Aerethan 3 days ago
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a sidenote:
Yeah. I shouldn't have said "fanboy". I should have gone with "Mantic Fanatic", as that's what the poster in question's signature says.
Would you rather I change my youtube user name so that I'm not associated as it here? I already admitted to being an ass to the kid, and he defended himself on the response video. I've let it go.
Dakka has rule #1, youtube does not.
And for the record, it's not like I called the kid names. I said his blind loyalty was disheartening and that he was uneducated on the topic at hand. Both of which are true.
Perhaps the nazi Germany reference was a bit far, but they were fed propaganda just the same.
@Kanluwen
N0t_U is correct in that comments on youtube are entirely worthless and disturbing (much like posts on 4chan) and not the topic of discussion. You’re free to start a “separate” discussion in the off topic forum regarding the negative comments posted on the kids you tube page but don’t do it here.
This discussion is solely about demographics/marketing with the kid’s youtube video solely being used as a quick n dirty example.
Then maybe, just maybe, she should have gone with discussing the demographics and marketing rather than picking a random internet video to use as "an example"?
It probably would help a bit more if the video hadn't been posted before Finecast released, but that's another topic entirely.
As another note:
The idea that Games Workshop targets children has been done to death. We know it isn't really true, despite what people like to say.
Kanluwen wrote:Then maybe, just maybe, she should have gone with discussing the demographics and marketing rather than picking a random internet video to use as "an example"?
It probably would help a bit more if the video hadn't been posted before Finecast released, but that's another topic entirely.
There are only 2 people that has been obsessing over the boy and completely ignoring the point, one of them is you, and the other is one that claimed some mantic revenge conspiracy.
If you cannot politely bring yourself back on topic, and rather continue to be disrespectful and off topic, I will report you.
Call this the Divination of the Star if you want, but some how I have a feeling you will persist going off topic till mod locks this thread for you.
So when was Finecast released? Can you tell me kanluwen?
candy.man wrote:I’ll have to agree with Lunahound’s theory. From a business perspective, any business would want blindly faithful customers. The question is though whether this was 100% intentional (or was it initially unintentionally achieved). Even still, GW’s financials have been on a steady decline for quite a few years now so I’ll say that it’s yet to pay off for GW.
Have you seen their financial statements?
I'll give you a minute to read the 10fold increase in Net Profit over the last 10 years.
Glossing through their half-year ones to 2012, I see that they also charge roughly 5 times (sits around 22.9%) their CoGS for their products (not sure if it includes shipping costs), so what the yanks pay is actually a fifth of the manufacturing cost which isn't exactly bad compared to other industries like video games, but the fact that Australians pay almost 10 times it (not common for high turnover industries) grinds my gears.
candy.man wrote:I’ll have to agree with Lunahound’s theory. From a business perspective, any business would want blindly faithful customers. The question is though whether this was 100% intentional (or was it initially unintentionally achieved). Even still, GW’s financials have been on a steady decline for quite a few years now so I’ll say that it’s yet to pay off for GW.
Have you seen their financial statements?
I'll give you a minute to read the 10fold increase in Net Profit over the last 10 years.
Perhaps you need a minute to read over the definition of inflation.
its a good reason why corporations uses % rather then direct number comparison.
Embargo.
Release Date kept in secret.
Online discount store needs to be brick and mortar.
All 3 share the same characteristics of: Making it harder for a planned purchase, while making it more sound for a Impulse buy.
I don't see that much of a connection between the three, and the theory that it's tied into impulse buys/selling to kids.
By Embargo, you refer to not letting some mailorder companies ship to parts of the world, most notably Oz? I see that as GW seeing something they don't like (their company stores and FLGS in Oz not being able to compete with Wayland/Maelstrom) and coming up with a way to counter it. I think they just looked at how many other companies have structured their distribution, and used that scheme to get the effect they wanted. I'm not sure how much it will boost sales in the stores in Australia, but that seems to be the goal.
The restriction on information is a tough one. I don't think it was done to increase business in any way. My best guess is that it's part of what they had to do to get the rights to The Hobbit, and prove to the movie people that they can keep a secret. Many people in GW hate the new policy, and are frustrated by it. It's not increasing sales from what I've been told.
Online discounters needing a brick and mortar store is a bit of a backwards statement. In many parts of the world it's legal to make a decision on how a company distributes goods, and what restrictions they place on resellers. One of those is being able to say "You must have a brick and mortar store to have an account with us". This has been around in the US for a long time, not sure for the rest of the world.
I don't think any of these directly relate to selling GW games to kids. They've always stressed demoing games to kids, to get them into the hobby. After someone hits the 'girls and beer' stage of their life, they have a lot less free time, and a lot less people looking to buy them gifts for birthday and christmas. Many other companies do the same thing. For GW it goes back at least 15 years, maybe 20. I remember getting taught to do demo games and work with younger kids at a seminar pretty damn early after I started carrying GW in my stores.
I frankly find it a lot less work selling to adults. Selling to kids takes a lot of time. Demos, painting classes, babysitting, explaining rules. It's a never ending process. But needed, as a store loses customers over time, and needs to attract new ones.
candy.man wrote:I’ll have to agree with Lunahound’s theory. From a business perspective, any business would want blindly faithful customers. The question is though whether this was 100% intentional (or was it initially unintentionally achieved). Even still, GW’s financials have been on a steady decline for quite a few years now so I’ll say that it’s yet to pay off for GW.
Have you seen their financial statements?
I'll give you a minute to read the 10fold increase in Net Profit over the last 10 years.
Perhaps you need a minute to read over the definition of inflation.
its a good reason why corporations uses % rather then direct number comparison.
Inflation averages (depending what you use) at 3% every year, that's being very modest.
That's still more than 5 times their profit 10 years ago. Not even the banks who made record profits in 2009/2010 (at least here where we had a tiny recession) can boast that after the majority of their growth has been accomplished.
mikhaila wrote: I'm not sure how much it will boost sales in the stores in Australia, but that seems to be the goal.
They've been making a loss here for a few years now.
mikhaila wrote:I frankly find it a lot less work selling to adults. Selling to kids takes a lot of time. Demos, painting classes, babysitting, explaining rules. It's a never ending process. But needed, as a store loses customers over time, and needs to attract new ones.
That is because normally adults know what they want.
If you take 2 a child and an adult, both never pre exposed to GW, will your point still be the same?
However as I mentioned earlier, i do agree with the babysitting part.
However, I see that as a counter balance with the higher amount of $ parents are willing to spend on the children.
Shaozun wrote:
LunaHound wrote:
Shaozun wrote:
candy.man wrote:I’ll have to agree with Lunahound’s theory. From a business perspective, any business would want blindly faithful customers. The question is though whether this was 100% intentional (or was it initially unintentionally achieved). Even still, GW’s financials have been on a steady decline for quite a few years now so I’ll say that it’s yet to pay off for GW.
Have you seen their financial statements?
I'll give you a minute to read the 10fold increase in Net Profit over the last 10 years.
Perhaps you need a minute to read over the definition of inflation.
its a good reason why corporations uses % rather then direct number comparison.
Inflation averages (depending what you use) at 3% every year, that's being very modest.
That's still more than 5 times their profit 10 years ago. Not even the banks who made record profits in 2009/2010 (at least here where we had a tiny recession) can boast that after the majority of their growth has been accomplished.
mikhaila wrote: I'm not sure how much it will boost sales in the stores in Australia, but that seems to be the goal.
They've been making a loss here for a few years now.
Show me what you are looking at. I have a feeling you are doing it wrong, especially your number just dropped by half
Show me what you are looking at. I have a feeling you are doing it wrong, especially considering your number just dropped by half
I couldn't be stuffed calculating the inflation accruing over the years (it's not just 10 times less 30%), and would be modest again and give them a generous figure, it's actually slightly higher than that.
IIRC it was 2002 that I checked for the 'last 10 years', you can scour the rest of the reports yourself.
Edit: I don't remember exactly where I found it but there is a chart on page 7 which anyone can read correctly of their 2010-2011 annual report, you may think 'oh GFC for 2007-08' but the sales are slightly higher now after '09 (I wasn't around then to know what exactly they did, was the embargo placed beginning of 2010?), they've just been cutting costs to compensate.
So, basically, you come into the thread, tell us something that has been hotly debated and contested on Dakka, and when asked for evidence, you can't be bothered?
Show me what you are looking at. I have a feeling you are doing it wrong, especially considering your number just dropped by half
I couldn't be stuffed calculating the inflation accruing over the years (it's not just 10 times less 30%), and would be modest again and give them a generous figure, it's actually slightly higher than that.
IIRC it was 2002 that I checked for the 'last 10 years', you can scour the rest of the reports yourself.
Edit: I don't remember exactly where I found it but there is a chart on page 7 which anyone can read correctly of their 2010-2011 annual report, you may think 'oh GFC for 2007-08' but the sales are slightly higher now after '09 (I wasn't around then to know what exactly they did, was the embargo placed beginning of 2010?), they've just been cutting costs to compensate.
Net income is always dangerous to look at and extremely inaccurate.
When a company is still expanding, alot of the money are put into their expenditures. Their initial stages will always show a low yield of profit, if any.
As time goes on, it should even out, however that might not be accurate either, for we do know how far GW have expended their shops internationally.
Yet the recent years we also know GW have been cutting expenses, closing shops, hiring less staff ( 1 man shops ). Now on paper, of course that will show
a gain in net profit, this is what supposedly "pleases" stockist.
Yet did they take in account of what i said earlier? nope! this is why stock market is so hard to predict /wink
See now the next question is, with the shops been considerably less, GW's sphere of influence will lessen.
How much will it lessen, we wont see the impact right away.
Have you ever considered this is why GW kept increasing their price? They are trying to balance the net income by squeezing the maximum yield out of their current buyers.
This is why people keep saying, this strategy wont work on the long run.
Show me what you are looking at. I have a feeling you are doing it wrong, especially considering your number just dropped by half
I couldn't be stuffed calculating the inflation accruing over the years (it's not just 10 times less 30%), and would be modest again and give them a generous figure, it's actually slightly higher than that.
IIRC it was 2002 that I checked for the 'last 10 years', you can scour the rest of the reports yourself.
Edit: I don't remember exactly where I found it but there is a chart on page 7 which anyone can read correctly of their 2010-2011 annual report, you may think 'oh GFC for 2007-08' but the sales are slightly higher now after '09 (I wasn't around then to know what exactly they did, was the embargo placed beginning of 2010?), they've just been cutting costs to compensate.
Net income is always dangerous to look at and extremely inaccurate.
When a company is still expanding, alot of the money are put into their expenditures. Their initial stages will always show a low yield of profit, if any.
As time goes on, it should even out, however that might not be accurate either, for we do know how far GW have expended their shops internationally.
Yet the recent years we also know GW have been cutting expenses, closing shops, hiring less staff ( 1 man shops ). Now on paper, of course that will show
a gain in net profit, this is what supposedly "pleases" stockist.
Yet did they take in account of what i said earlier? nope! this is why stock market is so hard to predict /wink
They've been expanding for a very long time, going through leaps and spurts, and reading anyting about GW is, as you said, dangerous to look at considering it won't stabilise until GW stabilise what exactly they want to do (never?) so all we can do is best guess for the next few years as to whether it actually worked out.
Heck, I'm not even remotely familiar with UK reporting practices, and a few years ago in Australia ABC learning went bust after a massive growth spurt because their reports were deceptive. GW could've changed reporting practices completely, may or may not count freight as a part of CoGS, only a UK accountant would be able to right this issue.
Now is not a good time to guess, as they have been expanding, and suddenly decreased via closing stores.
And they havnt closed THIS MANY till the recent... 5 years ish....
So Im sure their net income will look decent.
But how many store can they afford to close till the effect catches up
or how many dawn of war can they hope to keep selling.
The only thing completely outlandish was the indestructible thing. If he's some some models too it would be quite a bit better. I don't understand any of the "Finecast sucks" raging that goes on; My finecast are perfect, much better than the old clumsy metal ones that are too hard to put together
LunaHound wrote:Now is not a good time to guess, as they have been expanding, and suddenly decreased via closing stores.
And they havnt closed THIS MANY till the recent... 5 years ish....
So Im sure their net income will look decent.
But how many store can they afford to close till the effect catches up
or how many dawn of war can they hope to keep selling.
or how many more Hobbts etc etc.
In many ways, it doesn't matter. They'll sell hobbits until they run out of the little vermin, then move on to something else, and sell that. For video games, they don't have to sell any, never have. They let other people do that and rake in the cash. I expect they won't have a problem going forward having royalties coming in from on game or another. The franchise is started, and backed up by the games and black library.
I don't think anyone, including GW, knows where they are headed in the next 10 years. They will make the games they make now, and look for opportunities to make money in other ways. Continue to rake in profit from BL, FW, and liscensing. Their stores have always been elastic, stretching and contracting. They were in malls when malls were the place to be, and moving out of them now when they aren't. The game plan for their own retail stores is always changing, and I doubt it will ever fully stabilize.
GW has always evolved as a company. It's how they stay alive, and one of the few in the gaming industry to do so for a decade, let alone 3. (WotC being the other obvious company in that catagory.) Privateer knows they need to do the same thing, and not just sell Warmachine forever. Listen to what Matt said when they've released games like Monpoc, or the boardgames. They don't want to be a miniature company, or just a game company, and they'd love to be as diversified as GW is.
LunaHound wrote:Now is not a good time to guess, as they have been expanding, and suddenly decreased via closing stores.
And they havnt closed THIS MANY till the recent... 5 years ish....
So Im sure their net income will look decent.
But how many store can they afford to close till the effect catches up
I don't think anyone, including GW, knows where they are headed in the next 10 years. They will make the games they make now, and look for opportunities to make money in other ways. Continue to rake in profit from BL, FW, and liscensing. Their stores have always been elastic, stretching and contracting. They were in malls when malls were the place to be, and moving out of them now when they aren't. The game plan for their own retail stores is always changing, and I doubt it will ever fully stabilize.
GW has always evolved as a company. It's how they stay alive, and one of the few in the gaming industry to do so for a decade, let alone 3. (WotC being the other obvious company in that catagory.) Privateer knows they need to do the same thing, and not just sell Warmachine forever. Listen to what Matt said when they've released games like Monpoc, or the boardgames. They don't want to be a miniature company, or just a game company, and they'd love to be as diversified as GW is.
When I went to Throne of Skulls in Vegas last summer, they were talking about opening forty or fifty new stores in the US in the next year, and made a bit of a pitch about how they were looking for more managers. I agree that they're moving locations, really. Closing some and opening others.
I think GW's greatest success was listening to their corporate ego and pricing thousands of dedicated long term fans out of the hobby.
It has been a new genesis for Non GW miniatures in all sorts of scales and genres.
Let them have the children.
It will be interesting to see how they treat this competition. Probably just keep throwing customers away to justify the losses caused by these new companies.
Luna has hit the nail on the head. My comment regarding GW’s decline was indeed accurate although I don’t like to bring it up as more often than not, someone will misinterpret the financial statements (which happened just as I feared lol).
As Luna has correctly stated, Net income is indeed a misleading value as it doesn’t take into account the entire picture. Even still, tricky accounting is almost always used to make the financial statement look better (e.g. disposing unsold copies of Dreadfleet in order to pay less corporation tax, http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/426597.page ).
You really need to have some sort of financial background to properly interpret GW’s financial statements. I recommend doing a dakka search in the News forums as there has been some really good analysis of GW’s financials (so much so that someone made a joke that everyone on dakka must have an accounting degree).
mikhaila wrote:In many ways, it doesn't matter. They'll sell hobbits until they run out of the little vermin, then move on to something else, and sell that. For video games, they don't have to sell any, never have. They let other people do that and rake in the cash. I expect they won't have a problem going forward having royalties coming in from on game or another. The franchise is started, and backed up by the games and black library.
I realise I'm moving off on a tangent here, but say, for sake of argument, that you wanted to add some video games to your store. Say it was something small - a small section of your wall that only sold the latest AAA titles (ie. not a comprehensive stock of games, just the big games) for 360/PS3/Wii, maybe 10 titles for each platform. Would that cost you more to set up than it would be worth in profits, or would it be worthwhile?
mikhaila wrote:In many ways, it doesn't matter. They'll sell hobbits until they run out of the little vermin, then move on to something else, and sell that. For video games, they don't have to sell any, never have. They let other people do that and rake in the cash. I expect they won't have a problem going forward having royalties coming in from on game or another. The franchise is started, and backed up by the games and black library.
I realise I'm moving off on a tangent here, but say, for sake of argument, that you wanted to add some video games to your store. Say it was something small - a small section of your wall that only sold the latest AAA titles (ie. not a comprehensive stock of games, just the big games) for 360/PS3/Wii, maybe 10 titles for each platform. Would that cost you more to set up than it would be worth in profits, or would it be worthwhile?
I want to try answering that xD
No its not worthwhile, unless the customer have no budget limit.
If the customer is going to spend set amount of money, I would rather them buy something thats related to the store's main focus,
which the product will travel back to the store. e.g larger mini war game base.
let me know if i got the concept / idea right mik :3
I found a pretty depressing graph last year. It is a Google Trends representation of GW's internet footprint, based on the average worldwide traffic of the term "Games Workshop" (redone here by me):
When one uses the term "Warhammer" instead (which of course is less GW-Warhammer spesific) one gets this graph:
...which shows the same decline while simultaneously illustrating how small the miniatures gaming scene is: the 2008 spike (A to E) is directly related to Warhammer Online and the buzz it generated in mainstream media, and the F spike is related to the Wrath of Heroes annoucement.
It is really important to turn this slow fall around, both for the sake og GW itself and the fantasy/scifi miniatures gaming hobby in general. It may not be a direct parallell to sales and hobby mainstream presence, but it is not a good trend. It also doesn't look like GW as a brand name really gets all that much help from its computer game licences - I suspect most computer game players relate Warhammer Online to Mythic and Wrath of Heroes to Bioware/EA...
"40k" doesn't work as a trend search (most references are to the number) but "warhammer 40,000" nets this:
which also has a slow decline...I do wonder what the 2011 spike is related to...it is to late the be the teaser and to early to be the rumours of cancellation.
Same old, same old really. I expect it to repeat the brief boost when the Hobbit comes out then to start to slump back to where it is now. They need a more long term fix than these short term patches.
mikhaila wrote:In many ways, it doesn't matter. They'll sell hobbits until they run out of the little vermin, then move on to something else, and sell that. For video games, they don't have to sell any, never have. They let other people do that and rake in the cash. I expect they won't have a problem going forward having royalties coming in from on game or another. The franchise is started, and backed up by the games and black library.
I realise I'm moving off on a tangent here, but say, for sake of argument, that you wanted to add some video games to your store. Say it was something small - a small section of your wall that only sold the latest AAA titles (ie. not a comprehensive stock of games, just the big games) for 360/PS3/Wii, maybe 10 titles for each platform. Would that cost you more to set up than it would be worth in profits, or would it be worthwhile?
Not sure.
Video games have a distribution system that doesn't tie into any of the comic/game/hobby distributors that I work with. From what I've researched, the money in video games is in the used ones. New titles have a thin margin, usually 20% or less. Used stuff usually has 60-80% profit margin. Thus the push to get people to trade in their games when done with them, for other stuff. I know of several comic shops that have gone to what is called an "Entertainment Model" where they buy and sell used video games, systems, dvds, cds etc. I've explored the idea, but I've got 3 places in my mall selling new and used games and video right now, so I'd be in a horribly competitive enviorment.
For my suburban store, your idea has more chance of succeeding, since I don't have established competition literally 50 ft away. Wouldn't take up much space at all. The main hurdle is finding a distributor that would have low enough ordering minimums. Might be a better idea to simply sell used games, and make a deal with an another store to stock those games in my shop and get a percentage of sales. Used has such a better profit margin that there is more to share. People are already done with the Space Marine game and trading it in.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
n0t_u wrote:Same old, same old really. I expect it to repeat the brief boost when the Hobbit comes out then to start to slump back to where it is now. They need a more long term fix than these short term patches.
So does Greece and the slumping economy of many large nations. A big chunk of everyone's problems is the overall state of the world economy. Short term fixes are what you slap on while either creating, or waiting for, a long term fix.
As another note:
The idea that Games Workshop targets children has been done to death. We know it isn't really true, despite what people like to say.
Kan you know if you are making a sarcastic comment, you're supposed to use a winking emote afterwards right?
'Not targeted at children?', of course it is their target, and it's something they have been extremely successful with.
That any adults (veterans) continue to play their games is a nice added bonus for the company, but it's obvious in the way that the games have changed, the background, and marketing strategy (of customers spending a large amount of money in a relatively short time, then quitting) that it's primarily aimed at children, and more importantly the wallets of their parents.
n0t_u wrote:Same old, same old really. I expect it to repeat the brief boost when the Hobbit comes out then to start to slump back to where it is now. They need a more long term fix than these short term patches.
So does Greece and the slumping economy of many large nations. A big chunk of everyone's problems is the overall state of the world economy. Short term fixes are what you slap on while either creating, or waiting for, a long term fix.
Yes, but not when your long term fix appears to be "keep using short term patches"
GW continues to target kids but if anything, the lore is anything BUT kid-friendly (Slaanesh? Chaos? I'm surprised there arent more GW-burning movements than Harry Potter ones)
Bakerofish wrote:GW continues to target kids but if anything, the lore is anything BUT kid-friendly (Slaanesh? Chaos? I'm surprised there arent more GW-burning movements than Harry Potter ones)
The day the 40k universe equals Harry Potter in public presence, those Abaddon effigies will be burning in the streets soon enough
Bakerofish wrote:GW continues to target kids but if anything, the lore is anything BUT kid-friendly (Slaanesh? Chaos? I'm surprised there arent more GW-burning movements than Harry Potter ones)
The day the 40k universe equals Harry Potter in public presence, those Abaddon effigies will be burning in the streets soon enough
Or maybe the day those Abaddon effigies are burning in the streets, the 40k universe will equal Harry Potter in public presence.
Quick, somebody find Jack Chick and tell him about this "game" that uses idols of false gods.
I've been chewing at this entire thread over the past 2+ hours while doing some work at work. I must say this is one of the best, interesting, entertaining threads I've read in a year. Brava!
Harriticus wrote:GW probably has an Arbites Judge with a bolt pistol pointed at the kids head off camera. Hence the clear distress and confusion in his eyes.
He should have been flashing the "captured" hand signal- but that begs the question, did he do this willingly?
Just gotta say one thing here, GW minis are really not overpriced, I've bought some aweful models for more than GW models. And I'm seeing most people who really are upset are in AUS, and yeah GW prices there are terrifying.
As for targeting kids.
Have you seen the AOBR kit? HURDUR We made them orks four pieces so anyone can put them together! yew like spass mahrens? these are one piece, barely even a choking hazard! The AOBR kit was such a child aimed box. I've gotten the boyz and Deff Koptas from it for my brother, but I haven't touched those SMs, I despise those SMs. I like actually modeling my models too much.
Bakerofish wrote:GW continues to target kids but if anything, the lore is anything BUT kid-friendly (Slaanesh? Chaos)?
That’s because the fluff was developed before GW’s current kid focus. I’m sure if the fluff was developed today, Chaos would be more like the moustache twirling villains seen on Captain Planet.
Redaxe13 wrote:Just gotta say one thing here, GW minis are really not overpriced
This made me lol. $2.9 per model in plastic versus the $1.84 they were not even a year ago(Orc boys being the model used in this price example) and they didn't even resculpt the models.
And lets look at finecast. $49.50 for 3 fell bats! Are you joking?
GW minis are in so many ways overpriced. Even at my discount of 30% off they cost a pretty penny.
n0t_u wrote:Same old, same old really. I expect it to repeat the brief boost when the Hobbit comes out then to start to slump back to where it is now. They need a more long term fix than these short term patches.
So does Greece and the slumping economy of many large nations. A big chunk of everyone's problems is the overall state of the world economy. Short term fixes are what you slap on while either creating, or waiting for, a long term fix.
Yes, but not when your long term fix appears to be "keep using short term patches"
If 10 short term patches gets you through a decade, then it's a long term solution.) And not actually saying that's what GW is doing. Just sort of laughing at this thread, ( and many others) who disparage any company for 'Not having a long term fix",
We aren't privy to their strategy, or most of what goes on within their accounting and manufacturing. It's quite possible the short term plans are part of longer term fixes, or in addition to them.
Redaxe13 wrote:Just gotta say one thing here, GW minis are really not overpriced
This made me lol. $2.9 per model in plastic versus the $1.84 they were not even a year ago(Orc boys being the model used in this price example) and they didn't even resculpt the models.
And lets look at finecast. $49.50 for 3 fell bats! Are you joking?
GW minis are in so many ways overpriced. Even at my discount of 30% off they cost a pretty penny.
Find me equal quality models for a lower price. oh and that come with as many extra bits as GW models come with.
Bakerofish wrote:GW continues to target kids but if anything, the lore is anything BUT kid-friendly (Slaanesh? Chaos)?
That’s because the fluff was developed before GW’s current kid focus. I’m sure if the fluff was developed today, Chaos would be more like the moustache twirling villains seen on Captain Planet.
I agree, if Marines were made today there is no way in hell they would be able to spit acid, or eat brains to learn things from their enemies. I was looking through the old Realms of Chaos/Slaves to Darkness books the other day for another thread on the forum (about old sci-fi art) and I had forgotten how incredibly weird it was. It's funny, I could look at pictures of screaming guys surrounded by skulls all day, and not be in the least bit perturbed by it, but some of the pictures in those old chaos books used to freak me out. Even though they were obviously intended for adults, I think at the same time they intrigued the child psyche - what the hell were those things? Why is that guy riding a massive worm with 50 eyes, and who is the dude suspended upside down by what looks to be a tail made out of faces? It gave the impression of massive depth to the universe, and of hidden truths.
Personally when I was a kid, regarding marines I thought the aforementioned 'powers' were the coolest, rather than the more mundane ones such as not having to sleep or changing skin colour. I'm glad that in his latest book Aaron Dembski-Bowden had one of the Nightlords spit at someone in the face, utterly disgusting but I bet if you asked kids about it they would find that 100 times cooler than any scene in the entire Ultramarines omnibus, or the almost comical descriptions of Draigo in the Grey Knights book. Having read some of the comments on his blog, it's obvious that he still understands the roots of the game universe, and what made it evocative to him when he first found out about it. In some ways ADB's writing reminds me of the old 'Space Marine' novel, the bit where the marines eat the brains of the titan crew and then hijack it. The way it is described, in gory detail, was almost stomach turning.
As you say Candy.man, just as Chaos has been changed from it's original concept (of being weird, not understandable, rather than two-dimensional clichés of guys with black circles round their eyes stroking white cats, and writing rude messages to go inside fortune cookies) it's un-doubtable that this has been done to make it more accessible to children. However, at the same time, I think if we were all honest the more 'adult' elements were the bits which were the most appealing to us, and sadly I think something lost to the newcomers coming into Warhammer 40,000 today.
I understand that well enough. I was just commenting on the disconnect between the marketing and "actuality" of the GW IPs.
and its not a recent development either. I have a 15 year-old "mini-magazine" that GW used to give out in their stores and the "kid-targeted" marketing is fairly evident there.
Now I normally wont comment on this especially since we're talking about toys. God knows there are far too many things that are designed for kids that adults constantly try to shoe-horn themselves in (Transformers and Pokemon anyone?)
Its just for this case it seems to be the reverse. Its kinda like if White-wolf made a Saturday morning cartoon about your friendly neighborhood Malkavian.
MightyGodzilla wrote:I've been chewing at this entire thread over the past 2+ hours while doing some work at work. I must say this is one of the best, interesting, entertaining threads I've read in a year. Brava!
I agree. I'm trying to figure out which is the most absurd - the video or the majority of the comments in this thread.
I'm leaning towards the latter, since the kid at least has youth and dyslexia as an excuse, and his response conceded that there are quality issues while making some sort of effort to try and internally rationalise GW price rises as being down to inflation and the UK economy being weak.
Does anyone know if GW released any numbers for their demographics? Like how much %-wise do kids ages 9-12 make of the sales vs the "way too old to be passionate about plastic toy soldiers but we are so stfu" crowd?
because if the latter group which i belong to really are THAT small of the sales-% then the marketing would make a lot more sense
Redaxe13 wrote:Just gotta say one thing here, GW minis are really not overpriced
This made me lol. $2.9 per model in plastic versus the $1.84 they were not even a year ago(Orc boys being the model used in this price example) and they didn't even resculpt the models.
And lets look at finecast. $49.50 for 3 fell bats! Are you joking?
GW minis are in so many ways overpriced. Even at my discount of 30% off they cost a pretty penny.
Find me equal quality models for a lower price. oh and that come with as many extra bits as GW models come with.
so bits are what we're paying $1.1 per model for? How about releasing bare bones kits at the old prices, and sell bits separately, because honestly I don't need any more spare heads and right arms.
Bakerofish wrote:not a controversy but more like confusion to me
GW continues to target kids but if anything, the lore is anything BUT kid-friendly (Slaanesh? Chaos? I'm surprised there arent more GW-burning movements than Harry Potter ones)
Look at the old Daemonette, compare it with the new ones.
Seekers of Slaanesh
Look at Krullega of Dark Eldars
Dark Eldar Slave girls
I agree with the past posts about GW changing it's IP. I've been involved in GW products for about 2 and some change years now, and I can see the changes. I love picking up old books for RPGs or wargaming to see old stories and rule evolutions. AS aa result I have a couple 4th ed and 3rd ed codexes. Now, there are no more star vampires. There are no more heroic last stands or heroic charges to glory and death. Mysteries are being revealed by the truckload, undermining fan theories and speculation which is half the fun. A lot of the exotic aliens from Rogue Trader are never mentioned or cast aside, leaving the universe feeling very empty. The art style is softening.
Take the Rogue Trader cover:
It's not good art, but it's great inspiration. You get the feeling of their desperate last stand without being told what it is. Firing all directions, marines dieing, a head being waved in the air, marines piled in forming a wagon train of sorts.
On the other hand, doesn't give off a strong vibe. It's good art, but bad inspiration. There's no direction going on in the picture. No struggle. Just a dude. And a dude getting shot.
Necrons being the most recent codex to get an update got a radical overhaul to their fluff. They were emotionless and alien. Serving ancient gods who tricked them. Gods who wound up fighting each other, destroying their kind. To them, the galaxy was food for their pleasure.The army as a whole had personality.
The rewrite wound up like this:
Looks like the Deceiver..
( •_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)
...just got deceived.
And thus the Star Vampires became the pets. Necrons wanted to rule the galaxy... because. The new models failed to keep the vibe of Necrons to the point of little robots piloting their craft with their hands. In general, the necrons became a marketing decision, not a design decision. If you didn't like oldcrons, but you like the newcrons, then you probably still don't like necrons.
The fluff tends to be "we showed up here and kicked ass or got our ass kicked." There's a lessening of story being told. One of my favorite little pieces from the Space Marine 5th ed codex was the Iron Hands putting down a chaos rebellion, then killing every 3rd civilian to show them the penalty for chaos. It goes beyond the historic method of battle documentation that GW seems to have gotten into with it's 5th ed codexes.
TL; DR: I'm new to Warhammer and I think the old stuff was better.
If you are an adult and you are blasting this kid you really need to re-examine your life. He's a kid!
Imagine if he was going on about his favorite sports team in the same fashion, would you guys be as ignorant? Do you inform children that Santa Claus isn't real also? I know we are gamers but are we completely devoid of all social manners? this is how kids are, stop trying to crush his love of his hobby. Just becauseyour soul has been striped of all innocence, love and excitment by the chaos gods don't do the same to him. let him have innocence, one day he will realise the truth of GW.
I know I am skirting tule number one but sorry I have to take up for a kid when he is being blasted by people I presume to be adults for being a kid.
and congratulations to the people who aren't complete social outcasts and took up for the kid.
Sorry this reply is late, had little internet access.
You said the word "Mistake" Did I say this? No. You deciding Ive said mistake is implying that I think his opinion is wrong. Which I dont, I disagree, but its his opinion etc etc.
It isnt brainwashing when Ive seen the same thing luna is talking about happening with children with toys such as LEGO, Bakugons, action figures Etc etc, it shows evidence to my theory that its just that at that age children arent that amazing with handling money. They dont know enough about the big wide world with taxes, being poor etc etc. Theyre just kids.
Also, how have I implyed the child is being attacked? I said that his video Is a poor piece of evidence to use for your theory
The "KID" isnt even an ideal customer because he doesnt have a credit card.
<---- yaying
