So I've not seen this addressed anywhere and apologize if it has been but if I'm reading the assault rules correctly it can at times be REQUIRED that you do a multi assault not just an option.

For example at the begining of your assault phase if you had a large unit of hormagaunts(lets say 25) that are within 3-4 inches of both a unit of terminators and a unit of tac marines who are also only 2 inches from each other then you would have to assault both if your going to assault one of them. The second bullet in the assault rules states:

-If possible, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model.

Note the rule does not state what unit the model belongs to( therefore does not care). So basicly it says if you can engage an unengaged enemy model in base contact then you MUST do so. Add to that the assaulting multiple enemies rules that say you CAN assault multiple units and you get the idea that it's not always just an option becuase you MUST engage as many enemy modles as possible.

So in the example above, if you want to assault the tac squad, then you'll have to come up with an elaborate self blocking maneuver or generaly be forced to assault the terminators as well...

This is how I read it in the RAW but some of my friends think otherwise somehow so I'm curious what everyone else thinks about this.

Pretty sure you can assault as many units as you like as long as you remain in coherency. The first guy has to move to the target unit though.

That is a rather interesting question. If the requirment to move into contact with an unengaged model if possible, and does not specify that the model must be in the unit already engaged, then it would seem possible to 'lure' a unit into multiple combat. While moving into one would normally seem to be up to the assauting player, if your scenario worked out, you could really get into a bind if not careful.

That isn't the question. The question is "is multiple assaulting compulsory if you are within 2" assault distance of any enemy who is not in base-to-base contact with someone even if they are not in the target unit?"

I don't have my rulebook in my face so I can't answer that right away.

The Assault Phase Summary (page 33), The Declare Assaults (page 33) and the first section of Moving Assaulting Units (page 34)all talk about "declaring target" and "target unit", as does the following section.

Only in the Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units (page 34) are we given the option to assault "other enemy units".

I feel the context is perfectly clear.

As Steelmage wrote. The assault moves sequence applies to the singular unit you declared a charge against, and no other units, until and unless you exercise your OPTION to engage other nearby enemy units, presuming that you are able to do so while obeying all the normal assault move restrictions.

It only states that you must assault the unit you declared the assault against. It also states you must assault that unit with the first model you move. Since it is so specific on the first move and then says just "enemy model" for the rest it cannot be claimed this section is only refering to the one unit.

As far as the assaulting multiple enemies rules it does not state it's a option you can turn on and off, it just says you can do it. In fact some specific words out of it are "As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting". Note they say it's possible. To re-quote the main assault rule "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"

Not to mention this part "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back!"

I seems pretty clear that if it's possible to make base contact with more models by assaulting multiple units then the rules force you to do so.

Pg 34, col 1, par 2, line 4, MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS: "This means that assaulting models [ ] may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

So, no, multi-assaults are not mandatory even if they are possible.

That last part about it being possible is what makes it manditory at times... Please read the second bullet in the move assaulting units section.


As for the last line of that paragraph, since we all know you can assault multiple units all that really says is if you get into base contact with an enemy unit then you are assaulting it.

As has been pointed out, it is not mandatory to assault multiple units. Your whole argument is based on an assumption that since a certain passage doesn't specifically state a single unit it must mean multiple units when the rules don't say that.

I Agree with Ghaz. The BGB is very consistent about stating exactly what you must do. Assaulting multiple units when able is not a mandatory action.

Ghaz wrote:As has been pointed out, it is not mandatory to assault multiple units. Your whole argument is based on an assumption that since a certain passage doesn't specifically state a single unit it must mean multiple units when the rules don't say that.

It does not mean multiple units or a single unit. The term 'enemy model' does not refer to units at all. That is not an assumption. An assumption would be to think it does refer to a specific unit.

@Lordhat: You are correct, they are very consistant and they do state exactly what you must do. The first set of rules for moving the assaulting models applies only to the first model moved and is intentionally very specific. The next set of rules applies to moving the rest of the models in the assaulting unit and as with the rest of the book, it must be assumed it is worded specifically the way it is ment to be. If they had ment an 'enemy model in the unit you are assaulting' they would have stated that instead of just 'enemy model'.

You cannot assume they mean something they did not state. Once you do that your just making up rules... Which is fine if it's your house...

Abandon wrote:It does not mean multiple units or a single unit. The term 'enemy model' does not refer to units at all. That is not an assumption. An assumption would be to think it does refer to a specific unit.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Pg 34, col 1, par 2, line 4, MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS: "This means that assaulting models [ ] may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

You are wrong. There a is rule A and a rule B, but you are applying rule B only, citing that it does not restate rule A. This is a Rule SET in which the different parts compliment each other, not independent axioms.

You move your assaulting unit according to the assault rules. If when you are done moving your unit, you have models in base to base contact with more than one unit, you continue combat including those additional units. It doesn't matter which unit you declared your assault against.

Multiple assaults is determined by you being in base to base with models from more than one unit. You can end up with one huge assault with multiple units on both sides and it is all resolved as one combat.

I always thought if possible the unit assaulting must attempt to get all of its models within assaulting distance of the enemy unit. Only after that has been met can you also assault another unit, with tyranids this seems highly likely as you have a high model count.

I had a game the other night where someone where my buddy wanted to multi-assault my lesser demons, and my rhino but he didn't attempt to move 6inches in his assault to get around my lesser demons.

Abandon wrote:It does not mean multiple units or a single unit. The term 'enemy model' does not refer to units at all. That is not an assumption.

Yes, it is an assumption and totally ignores the context of the rules up to that point which is one unit versus one unit. If you don't ignore the context as you're doing its perfectly clear that they're talking about all of the models within the single unit being assaulted and not any model within range regardless of what unit they're in.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Abandon wrote:It does not mean multiple units or a single unit. The term 'enemy model' does not refer to units at all. That is not an assumption. An assumption would be to think it does refer to a specific unit.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:Pg 34, col 1, par 2, line 4, MOVING ASSAULTING MODELS: "This means that assaulting models [ ] may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

You are wrong. There a is rule A and a rule B, but you are applying rule B only, citing that it does not restate rule A. This is a Rule SET in which the different parts compliment each other, not independent axioms.

Yes. all the rules must be observed as a set. That's my point. So to follow them all at once keep in mind you can assault multiple units while you're making your assault move. Just because the rule's under a different heading does not meant it can be ignored. It is a permissive rule and applies during the assault move stating it's possible to assault as many units as you are able to, keeping in coherency etc. So add rule C to rules A and B.

So when you move any assaulting model after the first and you cannot reach base contact with an enemy model that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model in the unit you declared against but there is there is a enemy model in another unit that you CAN reach then It is unarguably POSSIBLE to make base contact with it and per the moving assaulting models rules you MUST then do so.

By that same logic, if there's an unengaged enemy model two feet away from your model, then you must move two feet to engage. It is, after all, possible to do so.

Abandon wrote:So when you move any assaulting model after the first and you cannot reach base contact with an enemy model that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model in the unit you declared against but there is there is a enemy model in another unit that you CAN reach then It is unarguably POSSIBLE to make base contact with it and per the moving assaulting models rules you MUST then do so.

I see where you are reading this. The rule for moving into base to base contact with as many enemy models is in the Moving Assaulting Models section for a single assault, so you MUST get as many of your models as possible into base contact with the single unit you have declared an assault against. You are not allowed to assault other units in this section. The permission to assault other units is in (surprisingly) the Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units section. Here it says that if you can, you MAY, NOT MUST. If you do so, then you have to follow the rules for single assaults against both units. Does this make sense?

solkan wrote:By that same logic, if there's an unengaged enemy model two feet away from your model, then you must move two feet to engage. It is, after all, possible to do so.

It is not possible as you are only allowed 6" to assault.

And yet again, you've completely ignored the context of the rules. The entire first column of text on page 34 is in the context of one unit assaulting one unit. Its even more clear that's the context when you go on and read the rules that actually allow you to assault multiple units. Right now all you are doing is cherry picking the rules passages you want to support your claims and ignoring the ones that clearly prove that you're wrong.

Ghaz has it right, as usual.

I'm not the one cherry picking here. Your whole argument is based on a line that states "...may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting". You seem to have taken that to mean they cannot make base contact with other units but that is incorrect. To take it that way would mean that no assaults on multiple units are possible since you would never be able to move to base contact with them. That line just to makes it clear that you cannot make base contact without assaulting the unit and as we know, you CAN assault other units and therefore it is POSSIBLE to make base contact with their models. The wording of the assault move intentionally allows for the assaulting multiple units rule which you seem to disregard at will. Stop thinking of it as something you can opt out of. It does not say you can if you feel like it. It just says it's possible. This is one set of rules not two operating independently.

Context does not matter in this case. There is no need to guess by context what is plainly stated.

Here's a simple breakdown

Rule set A: A mandatory rule set telling you very specifically how to move the first model in your assaulting unit.
Rule set B: A mandatory rule set stating how you must move the rest of your assaulting unit.
Rule C: A permissive rule that applies itself to rule set B allowing you to assault multiple units.

Rule set A is unquestioned so lets have a closer look at the bullet rules of set B with rule C in mind.

"• The most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved.
• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model.
• If there are no such models in reach, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with an assaulting model.
• If a model cannot reach any enemy models, it must try to move within 2" of one of its own unit’s models that is already in base contact with an enemy.
• If this is impossible, it must simply stay in coherency."

Rule C has little to no bearing on the first, fourth and fifth rules here so lets focus on the second and third.

The second rule here states you must move into base contact with an enemy model not already in base contact with one of your own if it is POSSIBLE to do so. Rule C makes it POSSIBLE to make base contact with any enemy model regardless of unit. So if there is ANY enemy model you can reach you MUST do so even if the model belongs to a unit you did not declare against.

The third rule is the same as the second except it's regarding enemy models already in base contact. Rule C applies to it the same way.

I don't know how to make it more clear than that other than to define the word possible but I'm sure you already know what it means.

@Nemesor Dave: TY for being able to see the logic here. I know it's no great leap but so many seem unable or unwilling to see it I feel I must give praise to those who do.

decoste007xt wrote:I always thought if possible the unit assaulting must attempt to get all of its models within assaulting distance of the enemy unit. Only after that has been met can you also assault another unit, with tyranids this seems highly likely as you have a high model count.

There is no requirement to engage as many models as possible on the original target before adding another unit to the charge... Any model after the first can assault a separate unit, so long as it can do so by following the rules for moving assaulting models.

So you move the first model onto the target unit. The second model can move onto that same unit or a different unit, so long as it winds up in base contact with an enemy if possible, and within 2" of the first model moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Abandon wrote:@Nemesor Dave: TY for being able to see the logic here. I know it's no great leap but so many seem unable or unwilling to see it I feel I must give praise to those who do.

Disagreeing with it doesn't mean that people are unable or unwilling to see it... It just means that they don't agree with it.

As has been pointed out, the rules for moving assaulting models are dealing with single units on both sides. The multiple assault rules are completely separate to that, and make it clear that engaging multiple units is a voluntary action. Within that context (and no, you can't just ignore the context, since context is what makes the whole messy English language function) there is no requirement to engage multiple units unless you want to.

Abandon wrote:Context does not matter in this case.

Yes it does.

The rules for moving assaulting models are not strictly for one unit on one unit assaults. They are the same rules every assault move uses.

As far as the assaulting multiple units being 'clearly optional' in it's description as you say it indeed does sound that way when you read it. By itself is a permissive rule that allows you to do something and gives you options. Unfortunately there are a couple other rules the tell you exactly what 'options' you must take. So it may happen (and often does in assaults) that because you CAN do a thing, then you MUST do that thing. In this case you CAN get into base contact any enemy model in range, staying in coherency, etc.

I generally I don't like to argue context because it is often difficult to define and often in the eye of the beholder but if you really want to I'll give it a shot.

The section is titled "The Assault Phase" and explains the rules in order of turn sequence.

"Declare Assaults"
This explains the process of declaring assaults. Of course they state you must declare one unit as your target. It is compulsory for them to say that as it is the first step in assaulting and therefore cannot be assumed a a context to flavor everything to come. It is just what happens at this stage of the game. It does not mention single or multiple assaults so with no meaningful context to glean here I'll move on.

"Move Assaulting Units"
Before it's first heading states that you must move into close combat with the enemy units you have declare against and that you must move a whole unit before moving on to the next. Again this is something they need to mention due to it's importance and does not state these rules are for assaulting only one unit in any way.

Sub-heading "Moving Assaulting Models"
The first paragraph talks about how movement in assault works mostly but in the end does state that you "...may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting". This should not be taken to mean you can't make base contact with other units since that is not precisely what is said. What is said is that you cannot be in base contact with them without assaulting them. If they had intended for this section to be only for assaulting a single unit they would have said something like 'enemy models you did not declare assault against'. instead they just made it clear that you are assaulting them if you are in base contact.

The next paragraph starts with "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back!" There it's pretty clear. If you could have engaged an enemy model and you did not, then you have broken this rule. Note there is no mention of unit. The rest of the paragraph explains how you must move your first model in the assaulting unit. Note it's very specific terminology "the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted". As there is only one unit currently being assaulted at this stage of course the singular is used. This is the only place in the whole section they state you must make contact with a model in the unit you assaulted. As this is so specific and very clear that it is only the first model that does this it cannot be considered a context for the rest of the moves either.

So now we're at the part about moving the rest of the models which we've discussed at length and I will not repeat here but.. where is this single unit assault context you keep talking about? It says you have to take all the mandatory(I just love that word) steps to assault but never says your only assaulting one unit anywhere.

Side note: I do apologize for starting this with a 'what do you guys think' question here and procceding to have a strong opinion about it. That's kind of rude and was not my intent. It's just the more I looked into it the more I was convinced I was correct.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

solkan wrote:By that same logic, if there's an unengaged enemy model two feet away from your model, then you must move two feet to engage. It is, after all, possible to do so.

It is not possible as you are only allowed 6" to assault.

So you ARE adding unwritten qualifiers [to that sentence] from other parts of the book. Right?

Abandon wrote:The rules for moving assaulting models are not strictly for one unit on one unit assaults. They are the same rules every assault move uses.

The point being made is that the initial rules for moving assaulting models are, in fact, for one unit on one unit assaults. The multiple assault rules then add in additional rules that allow you to engage multiple units.

But in the same way as the regular shooting rules work with a model firing a weapon that fires a single shot, the assault rules cover the most common, basic scenario and expand later to cover other situations.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:The rules for moving assaulting models are not strictly for one unit on one unit assaults. They are the same rules every assault move uses.

The point being made is that the initial rules for moving assaulting models are, in fact, for one unit on one unit assaults. The multiple assault rules then add in additional rules that allow you to engage multiple units.

But in the same way as the regular shooting rules work with a model firing a weapon that fires a single shot, the assault rules cover the most common, basic scenario and expand later to cover other situations.

Why do poeple keep saying it's only for assaulting one unit. It does not state that anywhere.

Unlike the shooting phase where they specify that "A firing unit can choose a single enemy unit that is not locked in combat as its target, and may not split its fire among different targets".

As for things like rapid fire, it is optional only because there is no rule stating you must fire as many shots as possible. If there were, then you'd have to rapid fire every time you had opportunity to do so. There is however such a rule in the assault section so my point stands.

In fact in the book overall, they generally are very specific about there wording and terms. In some cases you do have to use context to determine what is ment but this is always very direct and clear. In the Universal Special Rules they state thing like 'the model' and 'the unit' but it is clear they are refering to units and models with the ability listed right above the text in bold print as a subheading. That is what you might call setting a clear context and they do it again and again. Following suit with the rest of the book if they had intened the "Moving Assaulting Models" section to be only used for single unit assault they would have made it equally clear. Instead they chose to label it as they did becuase it is for moving ALL assaulting models now moatter the number of units they may assault.

To reiterate the assault steps used for every assault:
1. Declare assault <-at this tage you are assaulting only one unit
2. Move the first assaulting model <-here you are still only assaulting one unit
3. Move the rest of the assaulting units <- here is where the number of units you are assaulting will be decided and is determind by the moving assaulting models rules, not the player(unless he's trixy)

The first and second steps specify a unit to declare against and to engage with the first model. The rest can engage any enemy model they are able to reach and must do so if possible.

Abandon wrote:[Why do poeple keep saying it's only for assaulting one unit. It does not state that anywhere.

Because it does say that, in the rules for moving your assaulting models.

You declare an enemy unit as a target. You move your models into contact with that unit. They don't address assaulting multiple units until you reach a separate section of the rules later on. Before that point, the rules are dealing solely with single unit assaults.

As for rapid fire, it is optional only because there is no rule stating you must fire as many shots as possible. If there were, then you'd have to rapid fire every time you had opportunity to do so.

I have no idea what that had to do with the current discussion, but it's incorrect. Rapid Fire weapons fire one shot at up to maximum range, or two shots at up to 12 ". The only choice you have is to fire or not to fire. The number of shots is set by the range to the target and whether or not the firer moved.

Actually, Rapid Fire isn't optional.

Abandon wrote:As far as the assaulting multiple enemies rules it does not state it's a option you can turn on and off, it just says you can do it.

"Can" doesn't equal "must," therefore multiple assaults are not mandatory. It is something you can do if you are in range of a second enemy unit, as long as you have first satisfied all the steps in the "Moving Assaulting Models" section.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:[Why do poeple keep saying it's only for assaulting one unit. It does not state that anywhere.

Because it does say that, in the rules for moving your assaulting models.

You declare an enemy unit as a target. You move your models into contact with that unit. They don't address assaulting multiple units until you reach a separate section of the rules later on. Before that point, the rules are dealing solely with single unit assaults.

As for rapid fire, it is optional only because there is no rule stating you must fire as many shots as possible. If there were, then you'd have to rapid fire every time you had opportunity to do so.

I have no idea what that had to do with the current discussion, but it's incorrect. Rapid Fire weapons fire one shot at up to maximum range, or two shots at up to 12 ". The only choice you have is to fire or not to fire. The number of shots is set by the range to the target and whether or not the firer moved.

You can choose not to fire them and fire your pistols instead or not fire and take a run. There are no rules mandating your actions and therefore the permissive rules allow you complete freedom of choice. In assault you are compelled to take actions causing rules that are permissive to simply provide a wider array of things you can be forced to do.

As far as the assault rules though you are only partially correct. Yes, you must declare a unit to assault and yes you must move the first model to engage it. It does not meantion the target unit more than is needed to state you need to do those things. The rest of the rules leave you free to make base contact with any enemy model regardless of unit. The assaulting multiple units is not a seperate rule. It's in the same Moving Assaulting Units section as the rest. It even states "As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units" indicating you have already started the assault as per the normal(the only) assault rules and while your making your moves as per normal you "can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models".

It is not it's own set of rules. It is a rule that permits you to make base contact with any enemy model in reach during every assault move. There is no 'declare multi-unit assault'. There is only "declare assault" and it works the same way every time.

It works almost the same way. The difference is whether you choose to engage (or attempt to engage) a second (or more) enemy unit. If so, the models engaged will change.

Lord_Mortis wrote:

Abandon wrote:As far as the assaulting multiple enemies rules it does not state it's a option you can turn on and off, it just says you can do it.

"Can" doesn't equal "must," therefore multiple assaults are not mandatory. It is something you can do if you are in range of a second enemy unit, as long as you have first satisfied all the steps in the "Moving Assaulting Models" section.

When you are compelled to make base contact with an enemey model does in fact change the "can" into a "must". The second bullet in moving assaulting units states that 'if its possible then you must' and something you "can" do is undeniably something that's "possible" for you to do, it stands to reason that if you "can" you "must".

The phrasing of the multiple assault rules makes clear that it's a choice.

The phrasing of the moving into assault sequence mandates how assault moves are made, once you've decided to start assaulting one or multiple units.

Just put a sizable unit on a table and one inch away place an enemy IC. Then place and enemy unit two inches for the IC and one inch away from your unit. Assalt the IC, move you first model as normal, go to move the next closest and ask yourself if it is possible to get into base contact with an enemy model not already in base contact with an assaulting model?(don't lie to yourself, you've read the assaulting multiple units section. You know it is indeed possible for you to do that). If you said yes to yourself(and you always should) then read the second bullet in moving assaulting models and you'll see my point.

I've read those rules at least as many times as you have, and in my considered opinion you are incorrect. The requirement to engage an unengaged model only applies to the unit or units which you choose to engage in close combat with. One of which must be the unit you declared the assault against. Any units beyond that are optional. Once you make the choice to engage a model from a second unit, however, all further assault moves from the assaulting unit that turn force maximizing engagement against models in said units. The assault moves sequence is written to function equally well whether you're assaulting one or multiple units.

Abandon wrote:...go to move the next closest and ask yourself if it is possible to get into base contact with an enemy model not already in base contact with an assaulting model

No, because there are no other models in the target unit.

Unless, that is, you choose to assault another enemy unit that is in range, as allowed by the multiple assaults rules.


What it comes doen to is whether or not you take that reference to an enemy model not already in base contact to apply to any enemy model on the board, or just enemy models in the unit against which you intially declared the charge. And since the assault rules are dealing within one unit assaulting one unit until you get to the multiple assault rules, within that context it means enemy models from the target unit.

Engaging multiple enemy units is a choice. If you choose to do so, then they are bound by the same assaulting rules as if you were just charging a single unit.

Abandon wrote:

Lord_Mortis wrote:

Abandon wrote:As far as the assaulting multiple enemies rules it does not state it's a option you can turn on and off, it just says you can do it.

"Can" doesn't equal "must," therefore multiple assaults are not mandatory. It is something you can do if you are in range of a second enemy unit, as long as you have first satisfied all the steps in the "Moving Assaulting Models" section.

When you are compelled to make base contact with an enemey model does in fact change the "can" into a "must". The second bullet in moving assaulting units states that 'if its possible then you must' and something you "can" do is undeniably something that's "possible" for you to do, it stands to reason that if you "can" you "must".

The rules do not compel you to assault more than one enemy unit if you do not want to. You declare a target unit, then follow all the steps listed under moving assaulting models. IF after satisfying all the steps and you have models that are not either a)in base to base with an enemy model in the target unit b) within 2" of a friendly model from the same unit that is in b2b with an enemy model from the target unit, then, if you are able to maintain coherency, other models can then assault a second unit, following the same steps as before, but they are not required to. In essence, you move the closest model in your unit towards the target unit. Next, you move another model from the unit into base to base with an enemy but you have to maintain coherency with the first model that moved. The next model moves and attempts to get in to base to base, and at the same time must maintain coherency with the 2 models that have already moved, and so on and so on, with each new assaulting model maintaining coherency with models that have already moved.

Honestly, I've been playing this edition for a few years now, and I have never seen someone attempt to interpret the assault rules like this with a straight face....

Seriously, if this was a confusing issue, it would have been brought up many times before over the past few years, instead of now near the end of 5th edition.

It would not be the first commonly accepted misconception in the world.

The idea that your models can only engage the target unit unless you choose to assault other units just seems entirely fabricated. The target unit is only specified for the purpose that you must assault it and then specifys with the first model you move. The rest of the moving assaulting units rules plainly say "enemy model" and do not specify a unit and unless you think they wrote this on accident we'd have to assume it's what they intended.

If you want to establish the context the only thing in this section not explaing or stating a rule is "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back!" Which is an not a necessary satement since they force you to do this with the rules that follow anyways so if you want a statement purly for context here it is.

And no, it is not confusing at all. It seems quite clear. Something is possible or it is not. If you can choose something then it is possible.

Show me where it says you can turn off you ability to assault multiple units and I'll apologize for waisting your time. It is not an optional rule you can use or not. However it is a rule that creates options. It is a permissive rule applied during every 'Moving Assaulting Units' phase. Which is why it's in that section and it has no off switch.

Choice = possibility
Option = possibility
Something you can do = possibility

Please stop trying to use other words to get around saying it's possible. It is in fact possible to make base contact with any enemy unit within reach in any assaulting move. You can in fact just pick your model up and move to the unengaged enemy model of another unit you are not currently assaulting(assuming all other rules are observed) and place it in base contact and you will be assaulting that unit as well. You can do it, it's an option, it is POSSIBLE.

So yes, quite simple.

Abandon wrote:Show me where it says you can turn off you ability to assault multiple units and I'll apologize for waisting your time

You're still looking at it backwards.

It's not a matter of turning that ability off. It's a matter of multiple assaults being an additional option, not the standard procedure.

Once again, they outline the normal assault process. At this point in the rules, they deal solely with a single enemy unit. They then branch out into an additional set of rules that adds in the ability to assault multiple units. This is an addition to the normal rules, and is presented as something optional that you can choose to do. As such, it alters the normal rules slightly... if you choose to take that action.

Abandon wrote:You can do it, it's an option, it is POSSIBLE.

Exactly. Can doesn't equal must. It is an option that is possible if a second enemy unit is close enough. Nothing in the rules requires you to initiate an assault against a second unit. It is optional. It is something you CAN do if you should choose. Can doesn't equal must.

There was someone else on this forum that clung to this theory almost as much as Abandon is doing now.

Why are there even separate rules for charging multiple units if the main rules force you to charge multiple units in the first place? Did GW just decide to repeat themselves for no reason?

The Moving Assaulting Units rules do not directly compel you to engage other enemy units. They do however compel you to engage 'enemy models' without regard for unit. The Assaulting Multiple Units sections then repeats this to clairify that if you do(what you have just been compelled to do) you are assaulting all the units you are in base contact with.

"• If possible, the model must move into base contact
with any enemy model within reach that is not
already in base contact with an assaulting model."

Please don't try to tell me they are refering to the unit you declared against. That is not stated directly, by inference or context anywhere. The target unit is only specified to state you must assault it (that's a rule) and specifically with the first model you move. All your other models are able to and indeed must make base contact with "any enemy model within reach".

Abandon wrote:"• If possible, the model must move into base contact
with any enemy model within reach that is not
already in base contact with an assaulting model."

Please don't try to tell me they are refering to the unit you declared against. That is not stated directly, by inference or context anywhere. The target unit is only specified to state you must assault it (that's a rule) and specifically with the first model you move. All your other models are able to and indeed must make base contact with "any enemy model within reach".

As I said before, the phrasing of that section is deliberately left flexible to apply to either one or multiple units. Whether in the case of any given assault it applies to only the single unit you declared your assault against, or multiple units, is a matter of choice, as made clear in the section on assaulting multiple units.

It also says "models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase". The movement phase is full of options and choices. Things you CAN do. The assault rules however the dictate what choices you must make causing things that would be optional to become compulsory.

The movement section states "Infantry move up to six inches" clearly inticating you have the option/choice to move less than six inches or not move at all and in that phase you are free to do so moving in any direction you want while maintaing coherency. By your logic then during assault you could choose to move less than your max assault move so as not to contact an enemy model you optionally could have. That logic is incorrect though as it is clear your choices are being made for you by the rules that mandate your actions.

Here are your choices in any assault after the first move.
A) If there are unengaged enemy models withing reach, which one do I make base contact with?
B) If there are no unengaged enemy models withing reach, which already engaged one to I contact?
C) If you cannot make base contact with any enemy model, where in coherency of your own models that are already in base contact with them do I want to go?
D) If none of the above are possible, where within coherecy do I want to go?

There is never a time at which you will decide to assault mutiple units or not. The above choices are all you get.

Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units is a subsection, and says you "can" do it. If you were correct, it would say "must". Compare to the language about maximizing contact in general.

And as Ghaz pointed out, there would be no need for it to be a subsection. The rules would just say that you assault multiple units if they're next to each other.

When you have rules the dictate what options you will take your argument that it's optional ceases to make sense.

Yeah, it got it's own subsection that details what is clearly allowed in the rest of the section so what? That does not mean anything. Many things in the book have their own subheading. It does not even contain any rules of it's own. It's just an explanation of what happens when you contact another unit per the Moving Assault Models rules. It confirms that you can contact other units during that move and that you will be assaulting them as well. I never says you'll have a choice in the end either. Any choice stated or implied is trumped by the movemet rules that decide what choices you will make.

CAN=POSSIBLE
and
"If POSSIBLE, then you MUST..."
therefore
'If you CAN, then you MUST...'

So please stop repeating "Can doesn't equal must" it is not going to get any more true no matter how many times you say it.

And no they do not force you to multi assault units near each other all the time but it may end up that way situationaly depending on the positioning of the models, the terrain and the size of the units.

Abandon wrote:When you have rules the dictate what options you will take your argument that it's optional ceases to make sense.

Yeah, it got it's own subsection that details what is clearly allowed in the rest of the section so what? That does not mean anything. Many things in the book have their own subheading. It does not even contain any rules of it's own. It's just an explanation of what happens when you contact another unit per the Moving Assault Models rules. It confirms that you can contact other units during that move and that you will be assaulting them as well. I never says you'll have a choice in the end either. Any choice stated or implied is trumped by the movemet rules that decide what choices you will make.

CAN=POSSIBLE
and
"If POSSIBLE, then you MUST..."
therefore
'If you CAN, then you MUST...'

So please stop repeating "Can doesn't equal must" it is not going to get any more true no matter how many times you say it.

And no they do not force you to multi assault units near each other all the time but it may end up that way situationaly depending on the positioning of the models, the terrain and the size of the units.

Can doesn't equal must. Do I really have to break it down for you?

Page 33
Assault Phase Summary
1. Move assaulting units
Pick a unit. (Note: pick a "unit." Singular, not plural)
Declare which enemy unit is going to assault
Move the assaulting unit
Pick another unit and repeat the above until all assaulting units have moved.

Page 34
Move Assaulting Units
"Assaulting units must now move into close combat with the unit they have declared an assault against." (Note again: Rules still are talking about a single unit being assaulted.

All the rules following that are discussing a single unit assaulting one enemy unit. All the rules at this point are discussing getting as many models from the assaulting unit into base to base or within 2" of the one target unit.

Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units
This should be self explanatory, but apparently not. NOW you are informed that instead of ONLY assaulting just one enemy unit, you CAN, if other enemy units are close enough, assault a second enemy unit with the same assaulting squad. Why? Because up until this point, you have only been give permission to assault one unit, which is the unit you declared as the target unit., and all the rules are talking about moving and assaulting that one target unit. After all models from the assualting unit have ended up in base to base with a model from the target unit or within 2" of a model in b2b with the target unit, then other models in the assaulting unit that aren't able to get into b2b or within 2" CAN assault another enemy (you are now give permission to assault a second unit, but you are not being required to) unit as long as they maintain coherency and then assault in the sequence as described for assaulting one enemy unit (get into b2b first, then within 2"). However, this is purely optional, and assaulting units are only required to assault the unit they declared as their target. Can doesn't equal must.

It means that since you can't explain it you're just going to ignore it, just like you've ignored everything else.

You declare the assault against a unit and must then assault that unit. You had it all correct up til this point.

Lord_Mortis wrote:All the rules following that are discussing a single unit assaulting one enemy unit. All the rules at this point are discussing getting as many models from the assaulting unit into base to base or within 2" of the one target unit.

Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units
This should be self explanatory, but apparently not. NOW you are informed that instead of ONLY assaulting just one enemy unit, you CAN, if other enemy units are close enough, assault a second enemy unit with the same assaulting squad. Why? Because up until this point, you have only been give permission to assault one unit, which is the unit you declared as the target unit., and all the rules are talking about moving and assaulting that one target unit. After all models from the assualting unit have ended up in base to base with a model from the target unit or within 2" of a model in b2b with the target unit, then other models in the assaulting unit that aren't able to get into b2b or within 2" CAN assault another enemy (you are now give permission to assault a second unit, but you are not being required to) unit as long as they maintain coherency and then assault in the sequence as described for assaulting one enemy unit (get into b2b first, then within 2"). However, this is purely optional, and assaulting units are only required to assault the unit they declared as their target. Can doesn't equal must.

Of the rest of the rules you refer to only one states it must be made againts the target unit which is of course the first model you move.

"Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route"

The rest of the rules compel you to move into contact with any enemy model.

"If the enemy is within range, then the assault move continues. After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire. There are some constraints on their movement though:
• The most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved.
• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model.
• If there are no such models in reach, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with an assaulting model.
• If a model cannot reach any enemy models, it must try to move within 2" of one of its own unit’s models that is already in base contact with an enemy."

Notice the constraint of units 'not being assaulted' is removed here and you are now told(not given the choice) to get into base contact with any enemy model. It is fairly self explanatory but knowing people would be confused over this they added a whole section stating that getting into base contact with other units is fine and yes, you are assaulting them to.

"As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting."

They repeat the steps somewhat so you'll know exactly when this can happen.

"As usual the closest attacking model must be moved to contact the closest model in the enemy unit against which the assault was declared. Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models. Remember that the assaulting unit is not allowed to break its unit coherency, and this will obviously limit the potential for this kind of assault."

It just says you can do something it already told you to do in the last section. It's called an explanation and many have their own subheading especially when they know something needs it in a in-depth mannor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghaz wrote:It means that since you can't explain it you're just going to ignore it, just like you've ignored everything else.

Disagreeing and ignoring are two different things. I have already addressed every opposing point and found no evidence to counter my own and put forth much for it. Mostly the RAW.

If, in the Moving Assaulting Units rules, where the says "any enemy model" they had meant 'any model in the target unit' that would create a conflict in the rules as no assaults on multiple units would be possible.

"models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"

So it can only be that the rules mean exactly what they say. "any enemy model".

So one of the players has their tray of not yet deployed models sitting just off the board, and one of the undeployed models happens to be close enough that a model could reach it without breaking any of the other assault rules. So, clearly, since the rules say "any enemy model", it's mandatory to move into base contact with the undeployed model.

After all, if you're going to ignore the rule which states that you can only move into base contact with a model from a unit that you're assaulting, why stop there? Why not just ignore the unwritten rule about charging off the table?

Once you choose to assault the other unit, it becomes mandatory to move into base contact with those models. Until you do so, the prohibition against moving into base contact with units that aren't being assaulted still applies without needing to constantly restated. Just like the prohibition against charging off the table edge still applies, and the prohibition against moving through models still applies.

Abandon wrote:

The rest of the rules compel you to move into contact with any enemy model.

Any enemy model that is in the target unit, as at this point, you still have assaulted only one unit, the target unit, and you have only been given permission to assault this one unit. This is what you are not getting. All of the rules in "Moving Assaulting Models" are dealing with only two units: the assaulting unit and the target unit. It is not until the rules for "Assaulting Mulitple Enemy Units" that you are given permission to assault more units than the target unit. The rules don't start off talking about just one unit (the target unit) and then suddenly part way through them start applying to units other than the target unit, until you reach the section "Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units" which then specifically states you CAN (not must) assault more than one unit. Even in that section, it even says that if you follow all the assaulting rules properly it "limits the potential" to pull that off. It really is that simple.

Abandon wrote:Yeah, it got it's own subsection that details what is clearly allowed in the rest of the section so what? That does not mean anything.

I stand by my statement. You can't explain it so you decide to ignore it. Obvious troll is obvious.

solkan wrote:So one of the players has their tray of not yet deployed models sitting just off the board, and one of the undeployed models happens to be close enough that a model could reach it without breaking any of the other assault rules. So, clearly, since the rules say "any enemy model", it's mandatory to move into base contact with the undeployed model.

After all, if you're going to ignore the rule which states that you can only move into base contact with a model from a unit that you're assaulting, why stop there? Why not just ignore the unwritten rule about charging off the table?

Once you choose to assault the other unit, it becomes mandatory to move into base contact with those models. Until you do so, the prohibition against moving into base contact with units that aren't being assaulted still applies without needing to constantly restated. Just like the prohibition against charging off the table edge still applies, and the prohibition against moving through models still applies.

Those units are not on the board and therefore do not exist as far as the game is concerned. As far as the rule that sates you "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" that is only applied to the first model you move and it is then made clear that if your other models get into base contact with other units they are indeed assaulting it and it is therefore allowed.

It never says you get to decide to assault another unit. There are only the assault movement steps as laid out. If after following those rules you are in base contact with more than one unit, then it's a multiple assault.

Lord_Mortis wrote:

Abandon wrote:

The rest of the rules compel you to move into contact with any enemy model.

Any enemy model that is in the target unit, as at this point, you still have assaulted only one unit, the target unit, and you have only been given permission to assault this one unit. This is what you are not getting. All of the rules in "Moving Assaulting Models" are dealing with only two units: the assaulting unit and the target unit. It is not until the rules for "Assaulting Mulitple Enemy Units" that you are given permission to assault more units than the target unit. The rules don't start off talking about just one unit (the target unit) and then suddenly part way through them start applying to units other than the target unit, until you reach the section "Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units" which then specifically states you CAN (not must) assault more than one unit. Even in that section, it even says that if you follow all the assaulting rules properly it "limits the potential" to pull that off. It really is that simple.

First off YOU are never given permission to assault other units. The model is given the permission. "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units". Since they get that permission whenever there is another enemy unit in reach of the assaulting unit during the assault move they are able to make base contact with that units models. It may seem like very little difference but it is an important distinction since you cannot choose not to give them permission.

Second: You are a little hung up on the order they lay things out. The Assaulting Multiple Units section presents itself as a modifier and qualifier of the Moving Assaulting Models rules which is why it tells you to keep following them(stating this applies "As you move assaulting models" and therefore cannot be ignored if you don't feel like using it. Think of it as an addendum not a separate rule. It's also a somewhat lengthy explanation and needs it own section because throwing it in the middle of everything else would be confusing.

Third: It says "any enemy model"(without the 'of target unit' you keep adding. If you'd stop adding words to the RAW you could use more little quote marks and your argument would not look like an opinion). If they meant something else, they would have used other words like you like to add but they don't. The assault is deliberately opened up to "any enemy model" of any unit. The big hint here is the use of the word ANY.

Fourth: These rules are not intended for just one unit on one unit combat. I have no idea where you got that thought from as it is not stated anywhere. Please tell me where it says this. All of these rules are for ALL assault moves. Just because every assault needs to assault a target does not mean anything. That's just the rules, they need to mention those.

Note: IMO, GW has had a bit or practice writing these books and generally are specific when they mean something specific and not when they don't. They know better than to write "any enemy model" when they mean something more specific. You need accept what is written as it is written. Otherwise you're just making things up.

Abandon wrote:First off YOU are never given permission to assault other units. The model is given the permission.

And I would like to see the model move itself into base contact with an enemy model.

Third: It says "any enemy model"(without the 'of target unit' you keep adding. If you'd stop adding words to the RAW you could use more little quote marks and your argument would not look like an opinion). If they meant something else, they would have used other words like you like to add but they don't. The assault is deliberately opened up to "any enemy model" of any unit. The big hint here is the use of the word ANY.

Take a look again at this rule:"Assaulting units must now move into close combat with the unit they have declared an assault against."
Reading that and applying it to the rules that follow, the rules are talking about "any enemy models" in this target unit ONLY.
Only in the "Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units" section are you give permission to assault other units if close enough.
Leave out the whole section regarding AMEU. Pretend it doesn't exist.
Look again at the rules for moving assaulting units, especially the sentence "Assaulting units must now move into close combat with the unit they have declared an assault against." Since only one unit is being discussed at this point, it follows that all the rules that follow that sentence are discussing the models in the target unit only.

Now can you find the hidden word?

The target unit is used for only two rules. That you must move into assault with that unit and that you must do so with the first unit. It does this because if you do not, the whole assault fails and nothing happens. It then lists a whole new set of rules for moving the rest of the unit that ignore the target unit (as in makes no mention of, does not hint at or refer to, etc). This is all accordding to the Moving Assaulting Models rules regardless of the AMU clarification. You keep stating that the two rules they need to inform us of somehow add themselves into all the others but since they make no metion of each other no such correlation can be drawn here.

"Assaulting units must now move into close combat with the unit they have declared an assault against."

"Start eachassault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted,"

These are the rules you keep refering to and they are just that. Rules. Nothing in them modifies any other rule except that are requirements for the assault to continue and if not met will cause the assault end before it begins. The rest of the models are move on another set of rules.

"After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire. There are some constraints on their movement though:
• The most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved.
• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model.
• If there are no such models in reach, the model must move into base contact with an enemy model that is already in base contact with an assaulting model.
• If a model cannot reach any enemy models, it must try to move within 2" of one of its own unit’s models that is already in base contact with an enemy.
• If this is impossible, it must simply stay in coherency.
If you follow this sequence you will end up with all the models in the assaulting unit in unit coherency, having engaged as many enemy models as possible with as many assaulting models as possible."

Notice it makes a new list of constraints on moving them and none of them include a target unit. If you look at it carefully and don't add extra words to it, it says exactly what I've been saying.

As for the models getting permission and not you- You are not allowed to to do anything the model is not able to do. You yourself are perfectly able to pick up the model and put hime anywhere you like but by the book you are only allowed to move it where it has been given permission to move.

Abandon wrote:"Assaulting units must now move into close combat with the unit they have declared an assault against."

This means that any models in the "Assaulting units must now move into close combat" with whom you say? well the answer is right there in the next part of the sentence you quoted "with the unit they have declared an assault against."

So you use the "list of constraints on moving" in accordance with the rules about the target unit.

assaulting multiple enemy units is only an option.

Page 34 even gives you the restriction on assaulting enemies that are not in the unit that you are not assaulting

"Assaulting models...May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" (BRB 34)

How is this line unclear?

"Assaulting models...May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" (BRB 34)

How is this line unclear?

Exactly. This prohibition is contradictory to the concept that you automatically assault any enemy unit whose model is within the area where the move assaulting models sequence is taking place.

It says you must move the unit into CC with the target unit. It does not say all it's models and therefore does not add that restriction as only one model is required to fill this roll.

"May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" is explained later by stating that you can assaut them by simply moving them into base contact. There is never a time when it says you can choose or declare additional units to assalt. It says "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" Nothing stating a choice. They can assault other units in range and therefore make base contact.

All of this is aside from the meaning of the word possible. As in:
"• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."
and
"Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back!"

Possible: "a : being within the limits of ability, capacity, or realization " *Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

Since you keep saying it's a choice and optional lets make this clear. Any choice or option you have is within the limits of your ability and therefore qualify as possible. To reword without changing the meaning one could say.
'If there is a choice, option or abillity that would allow you in any way to move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model then you must do so'(much easier to just say 'If possible...')

So if, as you say, you get to choose to assault another unit and if that units model is the only one in reach you must choose to do so as per the the rules stated above compelling your actions and choices. The actions and choices you can do or make all qualify as possibilities

"May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" is explained later by stating that you can assault them by simply moving them into base contact.

What?

You may not move into contact with models from a unit you are not assaulting. What exactly determines which units you are assaulting, by your reading?

The only time you would be forced to assault multiple units is if you reached a situation where you could not maintain coherency without moving into base to base with another enemy unit. This in itself would require that you are charging a unit that is positioned mostly behind another unit and therefore is going to be an uncommon occurrence.

Elios Harg wrote:The only time you would be forced to assault multiple units is if you reached a situation where you could not maintain coherency without moving into base to base with another enemy unit. This in itself would require that you are charging a unit that is positioned mostly behind another unit and therefore is going to be an uncommon occurrence.

That is not true either. You are never forced to come into base contact with a unit other than the one you have launched an assault against.

Abandon wrote:"May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" is explained later by stating that you can assaut them by simply moving them into base contact. There is never a time when it says you can choose or declare additional units to assault.

Boldface, Underlined, and Italicized the important word.

Can does not equal must.

You have the option to assault other units, you do not have to, thus the option to do so.

"Then remaining models CAN assault models belonging to other enemy units." (brb 34)

Are you seriously saying that if you can choose something it should not be considered possible?
If you said yes, please explain how it is possible for you to do something that is impossible.
If no then some self Q and A might help to explain what I this mean:

Q)Is it possible for your unit to assault units other than your target?
A)Yes.

Q)Is it then possible to make base contact with their models?
A)Yes.

Q)Is it withing the limits of possibility to move into base contact with "any enemy model within reach"?
A)Yes

Q)If all these things are possible when it tells you "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach" if I cannot reach such a model in the target unit, do you really have a choice to not reach base contact with an enemy model within reach of a unit I'm not assaulting?
A)No, the rule compels you to make base contact with any unengaged enemy model, taking any necessary steps to do so.

Q)The Assaulting Multiple Units section makes it sound optional, can't I choose not to?
A)No, just like movement which is normally optional the assault rules dictate what choices you will make. Only within the parameters of it's mandates are you free to choose anything.

One more to answer you question Mannahnin

Q)When are your models allowed to assaulting another unit?
A)When a model belonging to another enemy unit is in reach as is explained in the Assaulting Multiple Units section.

Abandon wrote:One more to answer you question Mannahnin

Q)When are your models allowed to assaulting another unit?
A)When a model belonging to another enemy unit is in reach as is explained in the Assaulting Multiple Units section.

The rules forbid you from moving into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your read, you are automatically assaulting any unit you can move into contact with, once you've declared a charge. Are you not seeing the contradiction here? By your read this prohibition is meaningless, as you are automatically moving into contact and assaulting.

Q) Are units forbidden from moving into base contact with models from units they are not assaulting?
A)Yes

That is why it is optional and not mandatory.

How is this not clear?

DeathReaper wrote:

Elios Harg wrote:The only time you would be forced to assault multiple units is if you reached a situation where you could not maintain coherency without moving into base to base with another enemy unit. This in itself would require that you are charging a unit that is positioned mostly behind another unit and therefore is going to be an uncommon occurrence.

That is not true either. You are never forced to come into base contact with a unit other than the one you have launched an assault against.

If you were physically unable to maintain unit coherency while assault your target unit without placing a model into base to base contact with another enemy unit, you would, by necessity, be required to multiple charge the other unit in order to maintain unit coherency. Otherwise, you are making an illegal move (by breaking coherency) and thus, cheating.

Elios Harg wrote:If you were physically unable to maintain unit coherency while assault your target unit without placing a model into base to base contact with another enemy unit, you would, by necessity, be required to multiple charge the other unit in order to maintain unit coherency. Otherwise, you are making an illegal move (by breaking coherency) and thus, cheating.

It is not possible for the situation you are describing to actually happen.

It actually can happen, but only under extreme circumstances, you would need to be charging a unit by going around another enemy unit through dangerous terrain and lose one of the middle models in your charging unit to dangerous terrain forcing you to move the next model in the line to move closer to the unit you are avoiding in order to maintain coherency.

Not even then, the model in the enemy unit would either be too far, and you can get into 2" coherency without contact, or too close to the assaulting unit and that would put them out of coherency.

Anything else requires ultra-precise measurement with a laser measurement device to coincidentally have the enemy model precisely where it needed to be so your model is simultaneously in base contact AND within 2 inch coherency at the precise distance it needed to be to fulfill both of those conditions. Both of which will never happen.

it is not possible to be that precise when measuring, so it will never happen.

Mannahnin wrote:

Abandon wrote:One more to answer you question Mannahnin

Q)When are your models allowed to assaulting another unit?
A)When a model belonging to another enemy unit is in reach as is explained in the Assaulting Multiple Units section.

The rules forbid you from moving into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your read, you are automatically assaulting any unit you can move into contact with, once you've declared a charge. Are you not seeing the contradiction here? By your read this prohibition is meaningless, as you are automatically moving into contact and assaulting.

If the statement "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" meant you would cannot make base contact with a unit you did not declare against then that would create a contradiction as your models would never be allowed to assault other units. Fortunatly that is not what it means. All it means is that if you do move into base contact with them, then you are assaulting them as is explained later in the next section.

It may sound like an unnecessary statement but they need to say it to make it clear that base contact means close combat. If this were not stated you could make base contact with other units during your the assault and decline to assault them.

Abandon wrote:If the statement "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" meant you would cannot make base contact with a unit you did not declare against then that would create a contradiction as your models would never be allowed to assault other units. Fortunatly that is not what it means. All it means is that if you do move into base contact with them, then you are assaulting them as is explained later in the next section.

You have that pretty much exactly backwards.

Abandon, that makes no sense whatsoever, and I suspect that you know it.

Ok here it is spelled out then.

The Assaulting Mulitple units section says "Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" but according to you the assault movement rules say you can't make contact with other units so you'll never be able to assault them.

Thats what you might call a contradiction.

Contradictions happen all the time in the rules.

They give a rule, then they give specific exceptions to that rule.

E.G units can move in any direction.

Exception: Units with the Rage USR MUST move towards the closest visible enemy unit.

There is a contradiction, but we use the more specific rule in this case and rage works by contradiction the general rules.

Assaulting multiple enemy units is also an exception, but it is an optional exception that you do not have to exercise.

Abandon wrote:...but according to you the assault movement rules say you can't make contact with other units so you'll never be able to assault them.

That's not what they said at all.

The rules don't require you to declare assaults against multiple units. You only decalre the initial assault target. You then move your initial charger. Subsequent models can assault multiple units, because the multiple assault rules allow it... but models may not move into contact with enemy models from units that they are not assaulting... a prohibition that would be meaningless if you were forced to charge them anyway.

A unit with rage is compelled to move in a direction the maximum distance allowed. Units without this special rule move as normal. Thats called an exception, not a contradiction. I have not yet found any direct contradictions in the main book and if you find many of them I'd say you sould reconsider how you are evaluating the writen text.

As for this part "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" you are looking at the term assaulting in a way that would cause the rules to become broken. 'Assaulting' in this book is a gerenal term meaning attacking in close combat. It could be used to discribe a assault move(charge!) but still applies three turns into the melee as the units are still assaulting each other. So it could have just as easily been stated 'may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not attacking in close combat' and it would mean the same thing.

Abandon wrote:As for this part "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" you are looking at the term assaulting in a way that would cause the rules to become broken. 'Assaulting' in this book is a gerenal term meaning attacking in close combat. It could be used to discribe a assault move(charge!) but still applies three turns into the melee as the units are still assaulting each other. So it could have just as easily been stated 'may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not attacking in close combat' and it would mean the same thing.

None of which changes the fact that it would be a completely meaningless prohibition under your interpretation of the rules.

An exception and a contradiction are essentially the same.

Rage USR contradicts the movement rule that say they can move in ANY direction, by saying they can not move in ANY direction.

See the contradiction?

One says they can move in any direction.

One says they can not move in any direction.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:...but according to you the assault movement rules say you can't make contact with other units so you'll never be able to assault them.

That's not what they said at all.

The rules don't require you to declare assaults against multiple units. You only decalre the initial assault target. You then move your initial charger. Subsequent models can assault multiple units, because the multiple assault rules allow it... but models may not move into contact with enemy models from units that they are not assaulting... a prohibition that would be meaningless if you were forced to charge them anyway.

So your trying to say you can assault other units but are not allowed to make base contact with their models? That makes no sense.

I never stated you'd always be forced to assault additional units. My only claim has been that situationally (depending on positioning and size of units) it can happen that way if you follow the rule stating:

"• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"

You can assault other units, and are not allowed to move into base contact with other units unless you are assaulting them.

By your reading, if you have a two-model unit, assaulting two one-model units which are within ~3" of one another, and both in reach of your two models, you are forced to assault both, if you assault at all.

This is not correct. The prohibition on moving into contact with units you are not assaulting helps to make clear that some factor delineates between units you are assaulting and units you are not assaulting, other than the capability to move into contact with them.

DeathReaper wrote:An exception and a contradiction are essentially the same.

Rage USR contradicts the movement rule that say they can move in ANY direction, by saying they can not move in ANY direction.

See the contradiction?

One says they can move in any direction.

One says they can not move in any direction.

They are not the same. An exception asserts itself as exempt from the normal rule while a contradiction would directly oppose it. Contradictions break rule systems. Exceptions do not.


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Mannahnin wrote:You can assault other units, and are not allowed to move into base contact with other units unless you are assaulting them.

By your reading, if you have a two-model unit, assaulting two one-model units which are within ~3" of one another, and both in reach of your two models, you are forced to assault both, if you assault at all.

This is not correct. The prohibition on moving into contact with units you are not assaulting helps to make clear that some factor delineates between units you are assaulting and units you are not assaulting, other than the capability to move into contact with them.

It says all that? It seems to say that if you make base contact with them then you must engage them in close combat(that's what assaulting means).

As fo the example, assuming you could maintain coherency while doing so, by the RAW you would be forced to assault both units in that case. You seem to keep thinking there is some kind of declare secondary assault step or declare a multi assault step but there is not. There is only the rules for moving your models and following them will determine what units you assault.

Oh and there is a defining factor for what units you are assaulting. It's called base contact. Every unit you have in base contact with and enemy unit in a state of assault without regard for assault movement. The state of assaulting is, as I said, the state of attacking in close combat.

Youm know I think it's the word assault that's confusing you. You should read the section again and unless its a specific term like Declare Assault or Assault Move you can just replace 'assault' with 'engage in close combat'(adjusting for grammer) and the section may make more sense to you.

Abandon wrote:So your trying to say you can assault other units but are not allowed to make base contact with their models? That makes no sense.

Of course it makes no sense. That should have been your first clue that it probably wasn't what I was saying.

You can assault multiple units. You don't have to. You can only move into base contact with models from units you are assaulting... meaning if you are not choosing to assault a given unit (as you are given the choice by the multiple assault rules) then you can not move into base contact with them.


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Abandon wrote:...you can just replace 'assault' with 'engage in close combat'(adjusting for grammer) and the section may make more sense to you.

You're trying to create a distinction that doesnt exist in the rules.

The section that deals with moving models into assault is dealing with moving models into assault. So the part that says that you can't move into contact with models from units that you are not assaulting means, oddly enough, that you can't move into contact with models from units that you are not assaulting.

Whether you choose to interpret that reference to 'assaulting' to mean 'moving into assault' or 'fighting in close combat' ultimately makes little difference though, since models that move into assault will fight in close combat... the end result is exactly the same. You can't move into contact with a model from a unit that you have not chosen to assault... a choice that doesn't exist under your interpretation of the rules, rendering the rule meaningless.

Abandon wrote:They are not the same. An exception asserts itself as exempt from the normal rule while a contradiction would directly oppose it. Contradictions break rule systems. Exceptions do not.

and how is:

One says they can move in any direction.

One says they can not move in any direction.

not a contradiction exactly?

They are contradictory, any way you look at it,

DeathReaper wrote:Not even then, the model in the enemy unit would either be too far, and you can get into 2" coherency without contact, or too close to the assaulting unit and that would put them out of coherency.

Anything else requires ultra-precise measurement with a laser measurement device to coincidentally have the enemy model precisely where it needed to be so your model is simultaneously in base contact AND within 2 inch coherency at the precise distance it needed to be to fulfill both of those conditions. Both of which will never happen.

it is not possible to be that precise when measuring, so it will never happen.

Except that it does not require that precise of measuring... all that has to happen is for your model to be forced to move within 1" of an enemy model in order to maintain coherency. Bear in mind that "base to base" is 3" in diameter for a normal base model and 4" in diameter for a terminator base model. If you cannot maintain squad coherency with a model without moving within that 1" buffer zone of base to base contact, you are forced to assault the other unit in order to maintain coherency.

Elios Harg wrote: If you cannot maintain squad coherency with a model without moving within that 1" buffer zone of base to base contact, you are forced to assault the other unit in order to maintain coherency.

The 1" rule doesn't apply when you're making assault moves. (Page 34, 'Moving Assaulting Models' first paragraph) It is replaced by the rule preventing you from moving into base contact with models from a unit you are not assaulting.

Aha. I missed that. In that case, I concede that it can only occur in an impossible situation.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:So your trying to say you can assault other units but are not allowed to make base contact with their models? That makes no sense.

Of course it makes no sense. That should have been your first clue that it probably wasn't what I was saying.

You can assault multiple units. You don't have to. You can only move into base contact with models from units you are assaulting... meaning if you are not choosing to assault a given unit (as you are given the choice by the multiple assault rules) then you can not move into base contact with them.


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Abandon wrote:...you can just replace 'assault' with 'engage in close combat'(adjusting for grammar) and the section may make more sense to you.

You're trying to create a distinction that doesn't exist in the rules.

The section that deals with moving models into assault is dealing with moving models into assault. So the part that says that you can't move into contact with models from units that you are not assaulting means, oddly enough, that you can't move into contact with models from units that you are not assaulting.

Whether you choose to interpret that reference to 'assaulting' to mean 'moving into assault' or 'fighting in close combat' ultimately makes little difference though, since models that move into assault will fight in close combat... the end result is exactly the same. You can't move into contact with a model from a unit that you have not chosen to assault... a choice that doesn't exist under your interpretation of the rules, rendering the rule meaningless.

There is no distinction you are correct. I just felt Mannahini was getting hung up on the word thinking it meant something he had to declare or decide on instead of just CC so I was attempting to broaden his view of it.

The rule is not without meaning at all. They have to state somewhere here that you can't make base contact with a unit and not fight them in CC and I notice this is the only place it states it.

Even if you did have a choice lets not forget the words possible and must here:

"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"

Possible- In this case would mean anything within the limits of you or your units abilities in accordance with game rules.
Must- (I'm sure you know what it means) The use of this word in this sentence requires you to make any choice, take any option and/or use any abilities that would get you into base contact with any unengaged enemy model.
Any Enemy Model- Since the rules have given permission for your models to assault(get into CC with) any units models they are all fair game. If there are any in range of your assault move your only choice will be which one to move to.

Even if you had a choice not to assault another unit, that would mean you had two or more possibilities(a choice) and as per the MUST in the rule you would be forced to make the choice that gets you into CC with any unengaged enemy model. Moving as normal you could choose not to move your model at all or move it any direction but in assault most choices are made for you with rules like the above. If you had a choice that would give you and option to have an ability that would allow you that base contact then it is by definition possible to do so(see above rule).

If somehow doing the Hokey Pokey would allow you to engage an unengaged enemy model when you would not be able to otherwise do so, then this rule would dictate that do it and turn yourself around... that's what it's all about!

Abandon wrote:"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model

With the restriction that we can not get into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting.

Declare your assault against a unit, and follow the assault rules.

Then you MAY contact other units after the first guy has moved.

its simple.

DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:They are not the same. An exception asserts itself as exempt from the normal rule while a contradiction would directly oppose it. Contradictions break rule systems. Exceptions do not.

and how is:

One says they can move in any direction.

One says they can not move in any direction.

not a contradiction exactly?

They are contradictory, any way you look at it,

Because all units move normally except those with special rules regarding movement. It's also made clear that the normal movement rules are a default and all units move by them unless otherwise stated. If you'd like to continue insisting that rage is in conflict with the rules for moving and the many other contradictions you've found then please feel free to start your own thread on the subject, I have said my piece on it here.

Fortune cookie advise: You will often find what your looking for.

Any way you look at it, the assaulting rules are clear, you are restricted to only getting into base contact with the unit you are assaulting. With a provision for an OPTIONAL multiple assault.

How your argument says otherwise has no rules basis whatsoever.

DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model

With the restriction that we can not get into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting.

Declare your assault against a unit, and follow the assault rules.

Then you MAY contact other units after the first guy has moved.

its simple.

If, as you say, you MAY then it's POSSIBLE and "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"

Yes, you declare your going to attack a unit in close combat and you do so following the rules. The rules do happen to mention that after the first model is moved you can attack any model in your close combat move regardless of unit but they stipulate that you cannot make base contact without doing so. Simple as that.

Given that that portion of the rule is based on single unit vs single unit, you don't have a leg to stand on. Really, the rules are quite clear and I'm having a problem understanding how you've managed to twist them so unrecognizeably.

P.34 "The remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units"

Notice it says 'can' and not 'Must if possible'

don_mondo wrote:Given that that portion of the rule is based on single unit vs single unit, you don't have a leg to stand on. Really, the rules are quite clear and I'm having a problem understanding how you've managed to twist them so unrecognizeably.

If it were stated that this section is for 1v1 combat I would indeed be legless. The Assaulting Multiple Units section would then necessarily have their own rules for how to move your models but as they do not do either of these things the only logical conclusion is that there is no such thing as a 1v1 assault move or a multiple assault move, there is just an assault move and it always works the same way.

It is stated, per the assaulting multiple units being in a different paragraph. Deal with it.

DeathReaper wrote:P.34 "The remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units"

Notice it says 'can' and not 'Must if possible'

It also says that movement here works like normal movement and that is full of 'can' and 'may' and 'if you want to' type stuff... you know, possibilities without much restriction. When it comes to assault however, most possibilities are removed by the "If possible, then you must" wording... particularly the possibilities that do not get you into base contact with as many enemy models as possible. So the fact that your models CAN attack other units models in CC adds to the possibilities referred to in the rule "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model". It seems purely logical given the rules created here.


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don_mondo wrote:It is stated, per the assaulting multiple units being in a different paragraph. Deal with it.

That paragraph though states that it applies to your assault move when you" find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting". The "Declare Assault" stage also has is own heading and paragraph. It doesn't mean it has nothing to do with the assault move. Truth is, everything in the section applies to every assault move so... 'deal with it'.

No, it doesn't, since the if possible only applies to units you are already assaulting. And until such time as you assault a second unit under the assaulting multiple units rule, you are only required to assault (if possible) models in the declared unit. Once you decide to optionally assault a second unit, then they are added to the 'if possible' list.

Anyways, you've made up your mind and we're not going to change it. but at least you're giving us a chance to let everyone else know how to counter your arguments. thanks.

don_mondo wrote:the if possible only applies to units you are already assaulting

Where does it say that?


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don_mondo wrote:Anyways, you've made up your mind and we're not going to change it. but at least you're giving us a chance to let everyone else know how to counter your arguments. thanks.

I'm not doing this for the exercise. This it really how it looks to me. Honestly I'm getting tired of debating it and if someone could show that I'm wrong I'd be happy to to stop but thus far it hasn't happened.

Gee, I already answered that once. The assault rule is based on assaulting a single unit. Then there is a SEPARATE paragraph to tell you any additional rules that apply if you assault multiple units. The standard assault rules will only apply to those second, third, etc units after you have assaulted them. So if possible does not apply to units you are not assaulting, and (as pointed out already in this thread), it is even covered in the base assault rules that you cannot contact models in units you are not assaulting. So until you decide to assault a second unit, you don't have to assault a second unit. really, it's not that hard.

Abandon wrote:I'm not doing this for the exercise. This it really how it looks to me. Honestly I'm getting tired of debating it and if someone could show that I'm wrong I'd be happy to to stop but thus far it hasn't happened.

"May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"

That proves your argument false.

You declare an assault on one unit, and "May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"

The Context of assaulting a SINGLE unit proves argument false as well.

Abandon wrote:The rule is not without meaning at all. They have to state somewhere here that you can't make base contact with a unit and not fight them in CC and I notice this is the only place it states it.

Page 35, 'Who Can Fight' third paragraph.

The rules for moving assaulting models aren't dealing with whether or not they fight. They're dealing with moving the assaulting models.

Even if you did have a choice lets not forget the words possible and must here:

"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"

And, again, this is in the section that is dealing with single units. Multiple assaults are covered later. No amount of repeating that line in isolation is going to change the context.

You can't just pull a single line out of the rules and apply it to a different situation. Context matters.

Abandon wrote:

Possible- In this case would mean anything within the limits of you or your units abilities in accordance with game rules.
Must- (I'm sure you know what it means) The use of this word in this sentence requires you to make any choice, take any option and/or use any abilities that would get you into base contact with any unengaged enemy model.
Any Enemy Model- Since the rules have given permission for your models to assault(get into CC with) any units models they are all fair game. If there are any in range of your assault move your only choice will be which one to move to.

Even if you had a choice not to assault another unit, that would mean you had two or more possibilities(a choice) and as per the MUST in the rule you would be forced to make the choice that gets you into CC with any unengaged enemy model. Moving as normal you could choose not to move your model at all or move it any direction but in assault most choices are made for you with rules like the above. If you had a choice that would give you and option to have an ability that would allow you that base contact then it is by definition possible to do so(see above rule).

This is incorrect.

You are explicitly DENIED permission to ever make base contact with enemy units, in the Movement rules. The Assault rules carve out an exception to this; you are allowed to make base contact with units that you are assaulting. That being you, you still cannot make base contact with units you are NOT assaulting. This is important.

Why? Because the rules do not force you to declare assaults against multiple units, regardless of the circumstance. You are applying them out of order. Here's how the phase goes;

1. You declare an assault, pick a target, etc.

2. You measure the distance and move your first model. For the purpose of this exercise, assume the assault succeeds, is legal, etc.

3. You determine that you could reach another unit with some of your models.

4. If you want to assault them, you must declare so at this point. Why? Because you can only move into base contact with units you are assaulting (left column, second paragraph, page 34, ". . . may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.") and the only way we are given to determine that you are 'assaulting' a unit is that you declare so. You can NOT claim that moving into base contact MEANS you are assaulting a unit, because assaulting it is a prerequisite to the ability to move into base contact! The 'assaulting' status must, therefore, come first.

5. Now you examine the assault move rules to tell you how to move. It is not possible to move into base contact with models from any unit that you have not declared you are assaulting.

6. This is the important point, and the one you are missing. You are required to move to assault any model that you possibly can. You are NOT required to MAKE it possible to assault any given model; that is, there is no requirement that you declare all potential assaults, only that when you are resolving assault moves, you contact all the models you legally can.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Abandon wrote:

Possible- In this case would mean anything within the limits of you or your units abilities in accordance with game rules.
Must- (I'm sure you know what it means) The use of this word in this sentence requires you to make any choice, take any option and/or use any abilities that would get you into base contact with any unengaged enemy model.
Any Enemy Model- Since the rules have given permission for your models to assault(get into CC with) any units models they are all fair game. If there are any in range of your assault move your only choice will be which one to move to.

Even if you had a choice not to assault another unit, that would mean you had two or more possibilities(a choice) and as per the MUST in the rule you would be forced to make the choice that gets you into CC with any unengaged enemy model. Moving as normal you could choose not to move your model at all or move it any direction but in assault most choices are made for you with rules like the above. If you had a choice that would give you and option to have an ability that would allow you that base contact then it is by definition possible to do so(see above rule).

This is incorrect.

You are explicitly DENIED permission to ever make base contact with enemy units, in the Movement rules. The Assault rules carve out an exception to this; you are allowed to make base contact with units that you are assaulting. That being you, you still cannot make base contact with units you are NOT assaulting. This is important.

Why? Because the rules do not force you to declare assaults against multiple units, regardless of the circumstance. You are applying them out of order. Here's how the phase goes;

1. You declare an assault, pick a target, etc.

2. You measure the distance and move your first model. For the purpose of this exercise, assume the assault succeeds, is legal, etc.

3. You determine that you could reach another unit with some of your models.

4. If you want to assault them, you must declare so at this point. Why? Because you can only move into base contact with units you are assaulting (left column, second paragraph, page 34, ". . . may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting.") and the only way we are given to determine that you are 'assaulting' a unit is that you declare so. You can NOT claim that moving into base contact MEANS you are assaulting a unit, because assaulting it is a prerequisite to the ability to move into base contact! The 'assaulting' status must, therefore, come first.

5. Now you examine the assault move rules to tell you how to move. It is not possible to move into base contact with models from any unit that you have not declared you are assaulting.

6. This is the important point, and the one you are missing. You are required to move to assault any model that you possibly can. You are NOT required to MAKE it possible to assault any given model; that is, there is no requirement that you declare all potential assaults, only that when you are resolving assault moves, you contact all the models you legally can.

1-3 are correct.

4. The declare assault step is, according to the RAW, only done once. If that assault move succeeds and there are other units nearby the rules for Assaulting Multiple Units is applied as per "As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting" and then your "models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models". There is not second declaration of assault mentioned anywhere so the word assaulting would just mean to engage in CC as a part of the one assault move the unit is making. If it were required you declare anything here the book would state it. As it is you can just measure and move into CC(Assault) with any units models and the text as it's worded gives your models permission to do so whether you choose it or not.

5. The rule you refer to does not state the unit you have declared assault against. It says units you are not assaulting. Meaning that you can't contact them without engaging them in close combat. As there is only one unit you declare against then to take it as your are, you'd only ever be able to assault one unit and the next subsection in the book would be pointless.

6. Again you only declare assault once. There is no second declaration required to give your models the permission to assault other units models they already have it.

Right, there is no second declaration. there is also no requirement to engage models you did not declare an assault against. You can do so if you want to but you are not required to.

Abandon wrote:
4. The declare assault step is, according to the RAW, only done once. If that assault move succeeds and there are other units nearby the rules for Assaulting Multiple Units is applied as per "As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting" and then your "models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models". There is not second declaration of assault mentioned anywhere so the word assaulting would just mean to engage in CC as a part of the one assault move the unit is making. If it were required you declare anything here the book would state it. As it is you can just measure and move into CC(Assault) with any units models and the text as it's worded gives your models permission to do so whether you choose it or not.

Bolded for emphasis.

That's incorrect. You are not allowed to move into base contact with any unit you are not assaulting; there is only one way outlined in the text to gain 'assaulting' status, which is to declare so. You are assuming here that 'assaulting' means 'move into base contact with', but that cannot be true. Why? Because you must be assaulting before you are allowed to move into base contact. You cannot simply move into base contact, and therefore be assaulting the unit; the causality works the other way around. Unless you choose to confer 'assaulting' status on your models in relation to a given unit, you cannot move into base contact with them. This is what you're not understanding.

The rules for assaulting multiple units say you 'can assault' other units within reach. That does not mean 'can move into base contact', it means 'can assault'. 'Assaulting' is a STATUS, a relationship between two units which you are given permission to, at this point, establish.

But you are not REQUIRED to do so.

Abandon wrote:
5. The rule you refer to does not state the unit you have declared assault against. It says units you are not assaulting. Meaning that you can't contact them without engaging them in close combat. As there is only one unit you declare against then to take it as your are, you'd only ever be able to assault one unit and the next subsection in the book would be pointless.

Wrong. It said you can assault them; that means, as I said above, establishing a certain relationship between the units in question, which allows them to move into base contact with each other. The distinction I'm drawing is between 'assaulting' and 'moving into base contact'; they are different things, and 'assaulting' has to come first.

What that means is that if you choose NOT to take advantage of that, when it comes time to figure out what models it is 'possible' to move into base contact with, all the units you are not assaulting are off-limits. It's not possible to move into base contact with them, and so you don't have to do so.

DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:I'm not doing this for the exercise. This it really how it looks to me. Honestly I'm getting tired of debating it and if someone could show that I'm wrong I'd be happy to to stop but thus far it hasn't happened.

"May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"

That proves your argument false.

You declare an assault on one unit, and "May NOT move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"

The Context of assaulting a SINGLE unit proves argument false as well.

don_mondo wrote:Gee, I already answered that once. The assault rule is based on assaulting a single unit. Then there is a SEPARATE paragraph to tell you any additional rules that apply if you assault multiple units. The standard assault rules will only apply to those second, third, etc units after you have assaulted them. So if possible does not apply to units you are not assaulting, and (as pointed out already in this thread), it is even covered in the base assault rules that you cannot contact models in units you are not assaulting. So until you decide to assault a second unit, you don't have to assault a second unit. really, it's not that hard.

The Assaulting mutiple units text says you have to follow the rules for moving your models into assault. If those rules stated, as you claim, you are only allowed contact with any unit you declared against then you would never be able to move to contact those units they say you can assault and would render the section meaningless. As I've said you sould rethink how you are looking at that statement. It does not say a 'unit you did not delare assault against'. It says a 'unit they are not assaulting'. Assaulting as we know just means fighting in CC.

Abandon wrote: Assaulting as we know just means fighting in CC.

This is still wrong.

'Assaulting' means 'launching an assault'. 'Assaulting', 'being assaulted', 'launching an assault', all of those terms are always used specifically to refer to charging an enemy unit, NOT 'fighting in close-combat'. Rather, the phrase 'close-combat' is used to denote further rounds of close-combat. You are not 'assaulting' on the other player's turn, or in the turn after you assaulted. You are fighting in close-combat.

'Assaulting' is a relationship between two units. You get to DECIDE whether you want to, for lack of a better word, activate that relationship if you meet all the prerequisites. But you are NEVER required to do so.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Bolded for emphasis.

That's incorrect. You are not allowed to move into base contact with any unit you are not assaulting; there is only one way outlined in the text to gain 'assaulting' status, which is to declare so. You are assuming here that 'assaulting' means 'move into base contact with', but that cannot be true. Why? Because you must be assaulting before you are allowed to move into base contact. You cannot simply move into base contact, and therefore be assaulting the unit; the causality works the other way around. Unless you choose to confer 'assaulting' status on your models in relation to a given unit, you cannot move into base contact with them. This is what you're not understanding.

The rules for assaulting multiple units say you 'can assault' other units within reach. That does not mean 'can move into base contact', it means 'can assault'. 'Assaulting' is a STATUS, a relationship between two units which you are given permission to, at this point, establish.

But you are not REQUIRED to do so.

The text does not support this claim. It says your models "can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" and it does not state any requirements of declaration or otherwise to do so long as they are in reach.

BeRzErKeR wrote:
Wrong. It said you can assault them; that means, as I said above, establishing a certain relationship between the units in question, which allows them to move into base contact with each other. The distinction I'm drawing is between 'assaulting' and 'moving into base contact'; they are different things, and 'assaulting' has to come first.

What that means is that if you choose NOT to take advantage of that, when it comes time to figure out what models it is 'possible' to move into base contact with, all the units you are not assaulting are off-limits. It's not possible to move into base contact with them, and so you don't have to do so.

People keep saying the rules here say 'you can' and it does not say that. The entire moving assaulting units section only tells you what your models are allowed to do and what they will do with those allowances. The only place it says you can do anything is to decide what oder to move you models after the first("After moving the first model in the unit, you can move the others in any sequence you desire").

Assault is a general term for CC and is used as such thoughout the book and they seem to like the term assaulting for 'charging into close combat' so try not to read to much into it. So basicly the one line everyone keeps refering to...

"may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

...actually means you may not move into base contact with models from a unit they are not 'charging into close combat with' and has nothing to do with the unit you declared against. The only references it makes to that unit is to say that you must assault it(charge into close combat with) it particularly with the first model. After that you are that then required to move into base contact with any enemy model via assaulting(charging into close combat with) that model...

"• If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

Any enemy model is an general term and not something you would say if you meant something more specific. The next section then answers in detail the inevitable question 'do they really mean any enemy model?' by stating that yes your models can assault(charge into close combat with) models for other units. No other declaration is stated as being needed here so you can just measure and move.


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BeRzErKeR wrote:

Abandon wrote: Assaulting as we know just means fighting in CC.

This is still wrong.

'Assaulting' means 'launching an assault'. 'Assaulting', 'being assaulted', 'launching an assault', all of those terms are always used specifically to refer to charging an enemy unit, NOT 'fighting in close-combat'. Rather, the phrase 'close-combat' is used to denote further rounds of close-combat. You are not 'assaulting' on the other player's turn, or in the turn after you assaulted. You are fighting in close-combat.

'Assaulting' is a relationship between two units. You get to DECIDE whether you want to, for lack of a better word, activate that relationship if you meet all the prerequisites. But you are NEVER required to do so.

This is not always true. A multiple assault is any CC where more than two units are involved. It does not matter if anyone moved into it, three turns later(if they are still there) it's still called a multiple assault.

Abandon wrote:

This is not always true. A multiple assault is any CC where more than two units are involved. It does not matter if anyone moved into it, three turns later(if they are still there) it's still called a multiple assault.

No it isn't. It is called a multiple combat. In fact, there's a whole section entitled 'Multiple Combats' telling you how to resolve a multiple combat.

A 'multiple assault' is the act of initiating a multiple combat. 'Assaulting' is initiating a combat, via charging in; it requires you to declare who you are assaulting. You are confused because your terminology is incorrect.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Abandon wrote:

This is not always true. A multiple assault is any CC where more than two units are involved. It does not matter if anyone moved into it, three turns later(if they are still there) it's still called a multiple assault.

No it isn't. It is called a multiple combat. In fact, there's a whole section entitled 'Multiple Combats' telling you how to resolve a multiple combat.

A 'multiple assault' is the act of initiating a multiple combat. 'Assaulting' is initiating a combat, via charging in; it requires you to declare who you are assaulting. You are confused because your terminology is incorrect.

Well your right there... that's what I get for not consulting the book first.

Even so assaulting additional units does not require any kind of declaration. It is plainly stated your models are allowed to do so without any action or decision required on your part. As I said the only choice it presents is what order to move your models in after the first. Everything else is clearly worded for what your models are allowed to do and what you must do with those allowances.

You're still disregarding the prohibition on moving into contact with units you're not assaulting. Your interpretation renders this prohibition meaningless, and thus cannot be correct.

A choice has to be made to engage any given unit. Once that choice is made, models in that unit become legal options for the assault moves sequence. But not until the assaulting player makes that choice..

Mannahnin wrote:You're still disregarding the prohibition on moving into contact with units you're not assaulting. Your interpretation renders this prohibition meaningless, and thus cannot be correct.

A choice has to be made to engage any given unit. Once that choice is made, models in that unit become legal options for the assault moves sequence. But not until the assaulting player makes that choice..

It states, you must charge into close combat with them to make base contact(further defined thanks to BeRzErKeR). That is not a statement without meaning. Many things happen when you do that. Bonus attacks, defensive/offensive grenades, counterattack, etc.

The fact that is getting ignored is that the Moving Assaulting Models section must allow you to move into contact with models of other units or there would never be a multiple assault since it is clearly stated that you must follow these rules when doing so. You are only given permission to declare against one enemy unit so if this is going to make any sense at all rule must be taken in a way that allows you to assault other units as well.

Abandon wrote:You are only given permission to declare against one enemy unit so if this is going to make any sense at all rule must be taken in a way that allows you to assault other units as well.

Yes you are "Allowed" to assault multiple units, but it is only an option to do so as laid out in the Assaulting multiple enemy units rules.

Remember it says "Then remaining models CAN assault models belonging to other enemy units."

If it was mandatory it would not say that they "CAN", it would say that they "MUST" which is not the case.

This is a 20+ group of people having a logical discussion while one of them is playing "Who's on First". Abandon has repeatedly ignored the consequences of the WHOLE rule set by applying particular constraints from one separate but related section to another. Let him. He will not change his mind despite the fact every other person posting on this thread has disagreed with him and agreed with each other. And good luck with your, uh, 'idea' in practice. I am curious if you will insist on your opponents multi-assaulting every unit they can, and, if you have done so, what the outcome was.

The assaulting multiple units section states:
"they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"

It has been put forth by several people that the text in the moving assaulting models rules do not allow you to make base contact with units you did not declare against. Tell me how you mean to assault other units if they cannot make base contact per either the assault movement rules or the assaulting multiple units rules(being that they just refer to the assault movement rules)?

Oh, wait I know the answer...

DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:You are only given permission to declare against one enemy unit so if this is going to make any sense at all rule must be taken in a way that allows you to assault other units as well.

Yes you are "Allowed" to assault multiple units, but it is only an option to do so as laid out in the Assaulting multiple enemy units rules.

Remember it says "Then remaining models CAN assault models belonging to other enemy units."

If it was mandatory it would not say that they "CAN", it would say that they "MUST" which is not the case.

It also tells you that you can move
"All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase"
and that you can get within an inch of enemy models
"with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models"
does this mean these things are always optional? No. Out of all these things it says your models CAN do it tells you what you MUST do.

No can in this one: "All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase"

It says All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move, that means it is not optional.

Basic English comprehension tells us this.

As for "with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models" that would be optional with out the first provision.

Again basic English comprehension tells us this.

Ghenghis Jon wrote:This is a 20+ group of people having a logical discussion while one of them is playing "Who's on First". Abandon has repeatedly ignored the consequences of the WHOLE rule set by applying particular constraints from one separate but related section to another. Let him. He will not change his mind despite the fact every other person posting on this thread has disagreed with him and agreed with each other. And good luck with your, uh, 'idea' in practice. I am curious if you will insist on your opponents multi-assaulting every unit they can, and, if you have done so, what the outcome was.

Doing multiple assaults every chance you get is not the outcome of what I've been arguing. If you think I'm just giving the run around I'll sum it up for you.

My Statement:

The basic result of the rules here IMO is that when you go to move an assaulting model aside from the first and there are only unengaged enemy models belonging to a enemy unit you did not declare against then you would have to mandatorily assault that units models with the one you are moving per the moving assaulting models rules. It is the natural conclusion when you add "remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units" and "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model". It would only come up situationally and is completely in line with the clear intent of the rules here. "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back!"

Arguments thus far:

The Assaulting Multiple Units section makes it clear it's an optional ability and are therefore not forced to assault another unit if you do not want to.
-This is not in the RAW. It says "As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting" and goes on to say that when that happens your "models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models". So they get the ability to assault other units models whenever they are in reach and the necessary permission is not given for this ability to be optional.

It says you can, not that you must
-This is correct but you are compelled to consider all the possible things your model can do when it says "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model". This makes some things your model can do become things it must do.

The rule that says "If possible, the model must" is only for assaulting one unit.
-This is also not in the RAW. There is only one set of rules for moving into assault, not one set for single and another for multiple. It even says that in the Assaulting Multiple Units section as I've quoted above. It always works the same way.

In the moving assaulting models section it states your models "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting", since you've only declared against one unit it means you cannot make base contact with other units models.
-Seriously? This would make moving into multiple assaults impossible since you could never move your models into base contact with another units models. Bear in mind this is a rule for moving assaulting models and is always observed even in multiple assaults. Since this would subvert the whole subheading this view of the statement cannot be correct and should be rethought.

If your going to assault an additional unit you must declare so. This establishes a state of assault in relation to the enemy unit and allows your models to make base contact.
-This actually made the most sense but unfortunately is entirely fabricated. It is not in the RAW. You are only given permission to declare an assault on one unit and does not require you to make further declarations to assault others.

End summery

I feel I'm actually the one getting the run around since I've answered most of these several times yet people just keep restating them. So if there is another answer without a bunch of holes in it, that makes sense and is supported by the RAW then please let me know.


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DeathReaper wrote:No can in this one: "All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase"

It says All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move, that means it is not optional.

Basic English comprehension tells us this.

As for "with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models" that would be optional with out the first provision.

Again basic English comprehension tells us this.

Yes, it tells you your models have all the options from the movement phase and then tells you what you MUST do with them.

In the moving assaulting models section it states your models "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting", since you've only declared against one unit it means you cannot make base contact with other units models.
-Seriously? This would make moving into multiple assaults impossible since you could never move your models into base contact with another units models. Bear in mind this is a rule for moving assaulting models and is always observed even in multiple assaults. Since this would subvert the whole subheading this view of the statement cannot be correct and should be rethought.

Your conclusion here is entirely false. You are disregarding a rule, rather than figuring out how and why it works. There is an IMPLICIT requirement here that a decision be made to assault or not assault other units adjacent to the original declared target.

Abandon wrote:Doing multiple assaults every chance you get is not the outcome of what I've been arguing. If you think I'm just giving the run around I'll sum it up for you.

Yes it is. You are arguing that the rules state that you have to perform "Mandatory Multiple Assaults" if possible. Is this not true? I do not think you are giving anybody the run around. You believe you are right, and that EVERYBODY ELSE is wrong. So be it. I ask again; have you insisted that any of your opponents make multi-assaults "if possible", and, if so, what was the outcome?

Abandon wrote:It says you can, not that you must
-This is correct but you are compelled to consider all the possible things your model can do when it says "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model". This makes some things your model can do become things it must do.

Please stop ignoring the context of the section.
"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"
Refers to the section about one unit assaulting one other unit.

Those rules are in place to make sure you get as many models in base contact with the unit you are assaulting.

It even specifically forbids getting into base contact with another unit.

The only place it allows you to do so is in the multiple enemies section, and that is an OPTIONAL provision.

If you can not understand that, then we can give you no more help.

Abandon wrote:

If your going to assault an additional unit you must declare so. This establishes a state of assault in relation to the enemy unit and allows your models to make base contact.
-This actually made the most sense but unfortunately is entirely fabricated. It is not in the RAW. You are only given permission to declare an assault on one unit and does not require you to make further declarations to assault others.

Well, obviously, I disagree.

You're still making the same assumption I pointed out earlier; you are claiming, without support, that 'assaulting' is identical to 'moving into base contact with/engaging in close combat'. But that is manifestly untrue. Moving into base contact is clearly NOT the same as assaulting, since you must assault BEFORE you can move into base contact; engaging in close combat is also not the same, because the word 'assaulting' only ever refers to the move which initiates the first round, and 'close-combat' is used instead for the actual rounds of fighting that ensue. 'Assaulting', the word we're arguing about, must necessarily be something different; namely, a relationship which allows you to move into base contact and initiate close-combat. Whether you 'declare' vocally or not, without that state existing you still cannot move into base contact.

So, now; To say 'your models' can put themselves in that state ('assaulting') is the same as saying that 'you' can put them in that state.

Why? Because it is presented as an OPTION, not a requirement, meaning it requires a decision that only you can make. Remember, the requirement to move into base contact with all possible enemy models is not yet relevant; what's being considered is a potential modification to what targets are 'possible'. Your models MAY make that modification; they are, however, never REQUIRED to do so. Models cannot, of course, make a decision between two options, any more than models can physically move themselves; that being so, you must so for them, just like you move your models around the table.

If you decide to assault a unit, then the models in that unit are added to the category of models that it is 'possible' to enter base contact with. Then the requirement kicks in, and you MUST do so if you can.

But if you don't, the unit in question never enters that category at all; and since it isn't possible to move into base contact, you are not required to do so.

Mannahnin wrote:

In the moving assaulting models section it states your models "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting", since you've only declared against one unit it means you cannot make base contact with other units models.
-Seriously? This would make moving into multiple assaults impossible since you could never move your models into base contact with another units models. Bear in mind this is a rule for moving assaulting models and is always observed even in multiple assaults. Since this would subvert the whole subheading this view of the statement cannot be correct and should be rethought.

Your conclusion here is entirely false. You are disregarding a rule, rather than figuring out how and why it works. There is an IMPLICIT requirement here that a decision be made to assault or not assault other units adjacent to the original declared target.

I'm not disregarding this rule at all. The rule only states you must be assaulting(charging into combat with) the unit to make base contact with there units, not that you need to have declared assault on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Abandon wrote:Doing multiple assaults every chance you get is not the outcome of what I've been arguing. If you think I'm just giving the run around I'll sum it up for you.

Yes it is. You are arguing that the rules state that you have to perform "Mandatory Multiple Assaults" if possible. Is this not true? I do not think you are giving anybody the run around. You believe you are right, and that EVERYBODY ELSE is wrong. So be it. I ask again; have you insisted that any of your opponents make multi-assaults "if possible", and, if so, what was the outcome?

Perhaps you should coprehesively read the posts before adding one of your own. No, I never said every time possible. Yes, I have played games this way and the friends I play with are willing to see the logic in my arguments(much easier when you can discuss it in person). Honestly it does not make much difference since it does not come up very often.


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DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:It says you can, not that you must
-This is correct but you are compelled to consider all the possible things your model can do when it says "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model". This makes some things your model can do become things it must do.

Please stop ignoring the context of the section.
"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"
Refers to the section about one unit assaulting one other unit.

Those rules are in place to make sure you get as many models in base contact with the unit you are assaulting.

It even specifically forbids getting into base contact with another unit.

The only place it allows you to do so is in the multiple enemies section, and that is an OPTIONAL provision.

If you can not understand that, then we can give you no more help.

I've already addressed all this several times. Clearly you don't agree but unless you have further arguments to add my points stand.

Abandon wrote:I've already addressed all this several times. Clearly you don't agree but unless you have further arguments to add my points stand.

Yes, your incorrect point stands...

You have asserted that you have a point, which we have proven to be incorrect.

We do not agree, because your argument is false, everyone but you can see this.

Abandon wrote:

I've already addressed all this several times. Clearly you don't agree but unless you have further arguments to add my points stand.

Bit early to declare victory, as you haven't addressed my last post yet.

To be specific; your whole argument depends on the idea that 'assaulting' and 'moving into close combat with' are the same thing. That's incorrect. You must be 'assaulting' BEFORE you can move into close combat; it's not possible for the two to be identical.

Abandon wrote:No, I never said every time possible.

Abandon wrote:I seems pretty clear that if it's possible to make base contact with more models by assaulting multiple units then the rules force you to do so.

What do you mean by 'comprehensively read'? Does that mean read your posts and comprehend what you are saying? I understand exactly what your idea is. I understand completely where and why you feel like this is the correct rules interpretation. I also think you are totally wrong. Do I only comprehend if I agree?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Abandon wrote:

If your going to assault an additional unit you must declare so. This establishes a state of assault in relation to the enemy unit and allows your models to make base contact.
-This actually made the most sense but unfortunately is entirely fabricated. It is not in the RAW. You are only given permission to declare an assault on one unit and does not require you to make further declarations to assault others.

Well, obviously, I disagree.

You're still making the same assumption I pointed out earlier; you are claiming, without support, that 'assaulting' is identical to 'moving into base contact with/engaging in close combat'. But that is manifestly untrue. Moving into base contact is clearly NOT the same as assaulting, since you must assault BEFORE you can move into base contact; engaging in close combat is also not the same, because the word 'assaulting' only ever refers to the move which initiates the first round, and 'close-combat' is used instead for the actual rounds of fighting that ensue. 'Assaulting', the word we're arguing about, must necessarily be something different; namely, a relationship which allows you to move into base contact and initiate close-combat. Whether you 'declare' vocally or not, without that state existing you still cannot move into base contact.

So, now; To say 'your models' can put themselves in that state ('assaulting') is the same as saying that 'you' can put them in that state.

Why? Because it is presented as an OPTION, not a requirement, meaning it requires a decision that only you can make. Remember, the requirement to move into base contact with all possible enemy models is not yet relevant; what's being considered is a potential modification to what targets are 'possible'. Your models MAY make that modification; they are, however, never REQUIRED to do so. Models cannot, of course, make a decision between two options, any more than models can physically move themselves; that being so, you must so for them, just like you move your models around the table.

If you decide to assault a unit, then the models in that unit are added to the category of models that it is 'possible' to enter base contact with. Then the requirement kicks in, and you MUST do so if you can.

But if you don't, the unit in question never enters that category at all; and since it isn't possible to move into base contact, you are not required to do so.

Sorry I didn't have time to respond last night. I was at work and busy.

Either way you look at it it's a bit of an assumption. I'm assauming what is meant by assaulting is making an assault move into base contact, AKA charging. You believe you must be in a state of assaulting a unit before you can make your assault move against them into base contact.

By your logic the models in the assaulting units 'state' would necessarily need be changed to assaulting nearby enemy units by the text that says "models can assault models belonging to other enemy units". You are not given the choice over this, the models are made able to assault other units by this rule and by your thinking they would have to be automanticly placed in a relation of assault with those units for this to be true. It is not permitted that you can decide their state in any way and has the same result as my simpler view. Either way you dress it up it's the same rule.



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Ghenghis Jon wrote:

Abandon wrote:No, I never said every time possible.

Abandon wrote:I seems pretty clear that if it's possible to make base contact with more models by assaulting multiple units then the rules force you to do so.

What do you mean by 'comprehensively read'? Does that mean read your posts and comprehend what you are saying? I understand exactly what your idea is. I understand completely where and why you feel like this is the correct rules interpretation. I also think you are totally wrong. Do I only comprehend if I agree?

You stated that I had claimed that you must do a multiple assault every time it's possible. That was clearly incorrect as per the examples given in some of my posts and I was encouraging you to try to recognize what was actually being stated before you comment so that a logical discourse could proceed.

Abandon wrote:You stated that I had claimed that you must do a multiple assault every time it's possible. That was clearly incorrect as per the examples given.

Your comprehension of that section is still incorrect.

As it stands you are forbidden from contacting other units.

Multiple assaults allows you to contact other units if you want to.

It is not mandatory. Your argument has been proven incorrect. How do you not understand?

DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:You stated that I had claimed that you must do a multiple assault every time it's possible. That was clearly incorrect as per the examples given.

Your comprehension of that section is still incorrect.

As it stands you are forbidden from contacting other units.

Multiple assaults allows you to contact other units if you want to.

It is not mandatory. Your argument has been proven incorrect. How do you not understand?

This makes no sense at all. The rules for attacking multiple units state you must do so following the rules for moving assaulting models.
"Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"

You say the rules for moving forbid the assaulting unit form making base contact with other units refing to the text "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"

These two rules could not sensibly co-exist so I belive you are mistaken in the meaning of the text.

Abandon wrote:
This makes no sense at all. The rules for attacking multiple units state you must do so following the rules for moving assaulting models.
"Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"

You say the rules for moving forbid the assaulting unit form making base contact with other units refing to the text "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"

These two rules could not sensibly co-exist so I belive you are mistaken in the meaning of the text.

The Bold Italics, and Underlined above is what you are not comprehending.

The remaining models CAN (Not must) assault models belonging to other enemy units. Had it said must your argument would be true, but it does not so your argument is false.

They can, and if you choose to, then, and only then, does the "as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" clause come into play.

It is all right there.

DeathReaper wrote:

The remaining models CAN (Not must) assault models belonging to other enemy units. Had it said must your argument would be true, but it does not so your argument is false.

They can, and if you choose to, then, and only then, does the "as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" clause come into play.

It is all right there.

Yes, they can assault other units models. The point is they are then considered valid targets for the assault move in which you must get into base contact with any enemy model not already in base contact with an assaulting model if possible.

I know your about to say 'only if you choose to do so' but you are never given the permission to make that choice. The rules directly give your models permission to assault any units model in reach and do not give you permission to deny them that ability.

Abandon wrote:
I know your about to say 'only if you choose to do so' but you are never given the permission to make that choice. The rules directly give your models permission to assault any units model in reach and do not give you permission to deny them that ability.

This is the crux of the debate here. Most people (including me) are interpreting that sentence as, to paraphrase, "you can choose to allow your models to assault any. . ." etc. You, on the other hand, are interpreting it as "models have the ability to assault any unit. . ." etc.

As is usually the case when an argument reaches the grammatical level, it can perfectly well be read both ways, unfortunately.

Abandon, Mann said it best.

Mannahnin wrote:You're still disregarding the prohibition on moving into contact with units you're not assaulting. Your interpretation renders this prohibition meaningless, and thus cannot be correct.

A choice has to be made to engage any given unit. Once that choice is made, models in that unit become legal options for the assault moves sequence. But not until the assaulting player makes that choice..

Even the 'Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units' section (Third paragraph) says: "If the assaulting unit shot in the Shooting Phase then it must declare its assault against the unit it shot at, but CAN engage other enemies" They CAN engage enemies. It does not say that they MUST. Big difference.

Are you also going to claim that all units that shoot must declare an assault because of this?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Abandon wrote:
I know your about to say 'only if you choose to do so' but you are never given the permission to make that choice. The rules directly give your models permission to assault any units model in reach and do not give you permission to deny them that ability.

This is the crux of the debate here. Most people (including me) are interpreting that sentence as, to paraphrase, "you can choose to allow your models to assault any. . ." etc. You, on the other hand, are interpreting it as "models have the ability to assault any unit. . ." etc.

As is usually the case when an argument reaches the grammatical level, it can perfectly well be read both ways, unfortunately.

Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. Most permissions or abilities models possess are things you can utilize or not and this one appears so as well by the wording it's stated in. When this option comes up though you are in the middle of an assault move in which is telling your model to preforem certain actions if at all possible. Remembering the assaulting model can "assault models belonging to other enemy units" would basicly not change the wording of those actions they are mandating at all "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model". This seems to me the most seamless way to view it since "any enemy model" is not what is said when something more specific is meant.

Abandon wrote:Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. .

Which brings us back around once more to the point that this argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless. If being in range is the sole criteria for determining whether or not something is a valid assault target, there will never be a situation where you could possibly move into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your interpretation, the act of moving into contact with them means that you are assaulting them.

It's only when you assume that you have to actually choose to assault mulitple units that this rule means anything.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. .

Which brings us back around once more to the point that this argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless. If being in range is the sole criteria for determining whether or not something is a valid assault target, there will never be a situation where you could possibly move into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your interpretation, the act of moving into contact with them means that you are assaulting them.

It's only when you assume that you have to actually choose to assault mulitple units that this rule means anything.

This. Only I would say "infer", rather than "assume", as I think the implication is present and clear from the context.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. .

Which brings us back around once more to the point that this argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless. If being in range is the sole criteria for determining whether or not something is a valid assault target, there will never be a situation where you could possibly move into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your interpretation, the act of moving into contact with them means that you are assaulting them.

It's only when you assume that you have to actually choose to assault mulitple units that this rule means anything.

Like I said before lots of things happen when you assault and it's not always to your advantage. This section allows you to move into base contact with enemy models and this rule stipulates that you must be assaulting them if you do so along with all that entails. If they are in cover you'll go on initiative one, the defenders will react, etc. Without this stipulation there would be room to argue that you can make base contact and not be assaulting. Not everyone has been playing this game for years and things must be made clear.

Abandon wrote:Like I said before lots of things happen when you assault and it's not always to your advantage. This section allows you to move into base contact with enemy models [belonging to units that you are assaulting] and this rule stipulates that you must be assaulting them if you do so along with all that entails. If they are in cover you'll go on initiative one, the defenders will react, etc. Without this stipulation there would be room to argue that you can make base contact and not to be assaulting. Not everyone has been playing this game for years and things must be made clear.

Fixed that for you with the orange.

As insaniak said "... this [your] argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless."

DeathReaper wrote:

Abandon wrote:Like I said before lots of things happen when you assault and it's not always to your advantage. This section allows you to move into base contact with enemy models [belonging to units that you are assaulting] and this rule stipulates that you must be assaulting them if you do so along with all that entails. If they are in cover you'll go on initiative one, the defenders will react, etc. Without this stipulation there would be room to argue that you can make base contact and not to be assaulting. Not everyone has been playing this game for years and things must be made clear.

Fixed that for you with the orange.

As insaniak said "... this [your] argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless."

Yeah.. I just addressed that point in the post you just edited and quoted. The orange text adds nothing to the content of the statement as it was already in there... Am glad to hear you agree with insaniak but the reason why would be more productive.

Abandon, just so I understand. Your claim is that when assaulting, models must move into contact with an enemy model if possible, despite the fact that you are not allowed to move into contact with an enemy model you are not assaulting?

Abandon wrote:Am glad to hear you agree with insaniak but the reason why would be more productive.

I have already told you why.

You are ignoring the context of the rules.

If you do not ignore the context, then you will understand why multiple assaults are optional.

Abandon wrote:This section allows you to move into base contact with enemy models and this rule stipulates that you must be assaulting them if you do so along with all that entails.

Do you honestly not see the circular logic there?

You have to be assaulting them to move into base contact, but by moving into base contact you are assaulting them. That's what your argument leads to.

Happyjew wrote:Abandon, just so I understand. Your claim is that when assaulting, models must move into contact with an enemy model if possible, despite the fact that you are not allowed to move into contact with an enemy model you are not assaulting?

In essence yes but without the conflict you denote. Assaulting models(after the first) are permitted to assault models from any enemy unit. That permission given by the rules allows those models to make an assault move into base contact with any enemy model within reach. I am simply applying that to the rules for moving assaulting models and stating you are not permitted to ignore it.

What conflict am I denoting? The rules say
a) models must move into base contact with a model in the unit(s) you are assaulting if possible.
b) you may not move into base contact with model(s) in a unit unless you are assaulting that unit.

Those are both RAW, however as I understand it, you believe, that you move into contact with another unit, even though the rules specifically forbid it.

Mannahnin wrote:

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:Yes, it is the heart of the matter. Which is why I point out that it gives this permission directly to the model and does not indicate you get to choose. .

Which brings us back around once more to the point that this argument renders the rule telling us we can't move into base contact with a unit we are not assaulting completely meaningless. If being in range is the sole criteria for determining whether or not something is a valid assault target, there will never be a situation where you could possibly move into contact with a unit you are not assaulting. By your interpretation, the act of moving into contact with them means that you are assaulting them.

It's only when you assume that you have to actually choose to assault mulitple units that this rule means anything.

This. Only I would say "infer", rather than "assume", as I think the implication is present and clear from the context.

Assume was the correct word. By its wording it seems to say the model can be in a state of assaulting another unit or it can not be in a state of assaulting another unit. It does not infer that you can decide nor can it be safely assumed especially since this occurs during an assault in which time most states of the model are being decided by the rules. Out of all the possible things the model can do, they decide what it will do when it says "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model".

What then does the prohibition on moving into contact with a model from a unit you are NOT assaulting mean?

Happyjew wrote:What conflict am I denoting? The rules say
a) models must move into base contact with a model in the unit(s) you are assaulting if possible.
b) you may not move into base contact with model(s) in a unit unless you are assaulting that unit.

Those are both RAW, however as I understand it, you believe, that you move into contact with another unit, even though the rules specifically forbid it.

In your opinion then, please tell how you are ever going to assault an additional unit without making base contact. Bearing in mind you are not permitted to declare a second assault(silently or otherwise).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:What then does the prohibition on moving into contact with a model from a unit you are NOT assaulting mean?

If this were not stated there would be nothing to stop you from moving into base contact with a model(likely of a unit you did not declare against) and claim not to be assaulting it's unit.

Abandon wrote:If this were not stated there would be nothing to stop you from moving into base contact with a model(likely of a unit you did not declare against) and claim not to be assaulting it's unit.

I gave you the reference earlier in the thread to the rule that states that all models in base contact fight in the round of combat.

Once again, the section that details moving your assaulting models is dealing with moving your assaulting models. Determining who fights is then covered in the section rather cleverly entitled 'Who Can Fight?'

So the rule that tells us that you can't move into base contact with a model from a unit you are not assaulting is, strangely enough, dealing with how you move your assaulting models. It is not telling you whether or not they will hit anyone when it comes time to roll your attacks, It is telling you that you can't move into base contact unless you are assaulting. In the context provided, 'assaulting' does not mean 'hitting with a stick'... it means 'moving into base contact'.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:If this were not stated there would be nothing to stop you from moving into base contact with a model(likely of a unit you did not declare against) and claim not to be assaulting it's unit.

I gave you the reference earlier in the thread to the rule that states that all models in base contact fight in the round of combat.

Once again, the section that details moving your assaulting models is dealing with moving your assaulting models. Determining who fights is then covered in the section rather cleverly entitled 'Who Can Fight?'

So the rule that tells us that you can't move into base contact with a model from a unit you are not assaulting is, strangely enough, dealing with how you move your assaulting models. It is not telling you whether or not they will hit anyone when it comes time to roll your attacks, It is telling you that you can't move into base contact unless you are assaulting. In the context provided, 'assaulting' does not mean 'hitting with a stick'... it means 'moving into base contact'.

Yes they would fight but without an assault there is no defenders react, assalting through cover would not matter, etc. It's not just about who is engaged. This rule is necessary to ensure the proper assault sequence occurs and is not bypassed by clever rules lawyers. Its crucial that they state that base contact can only be made by assaulting not matter how you look at it. It IMO your reading way to much into it. The rules state:
"model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved"
"models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"
"may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"
"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

If there is more than one unit in range of your second models assault move and your on the second bullet of the list all these rules will apply. It's not that complex and it does not matter what order you put them in. I believe assailting means charging into combat and that seems to me the simplest and most seamless way to look at it. If you want to think of it in a more complex way you'll either come out with the same result anyways, add rules that are not stated or cause the RAW to be disfunctional.


BTW you just said "In the context provided, 'assaulting' does not mean 'hitting with a stick'... it means 'moving into base contact". That would cause the rule you keep quoting to me read 'may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not moving into base contact with'

Abandon wrote:Yes they would fight but without an assault there is no defenders react, assalting through cover would not matter, etc.

Sure... because without an assault they have no permission to make an assault move in the assault phase in the first place.

You're making assault moves. You don't need a rule that says that you make an assault move by making an assault move.

This rule is necessary to ensure the proper assault sequence occurs and is not bypassed by clever rules lawyers.

There is nothing to lawyer. You declare your assault. You make your assault moves. If you move a model with some action that is not an assault move, you are not making an assault move.

ts crucial that they state that base contact can only be made by assaulting not matter how you look at it. It IMO your reading way to much into it. The rules state:
"model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved"
"models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"
"may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"
"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

Yes, they state all of that. In two separate sections, one of which outlines the basic rules for assaulting, and one which adds the option to assault multiple units when you do so.

Pro-tip: Selectively pulling statements out of context from two distinct sections of the rules and rearranging them to suit your argument makes it look a little odd for you to be accusing those who disagree with you of 'reading too much into it...'

Abandon wrote:In your opinion then, please tell how you are ever going to assault an additional unit without making base contact. Bearing in mind you are not permitted to declare a second assault(silently or otherwise).

Well first the rules specify you MUST declare your assault on the unit you shot at (if you did shoot.
Second the rules give you permission with the word can to assault other units, however you must still follow the rules for moving assaulting models.

insaniak wrote:

Abandon wrote:Yes they would fight but without an assault there is no defenders react, assalting through cover would not matter, etc.

Sure... because without an assault they have no permission to make an assault move in the assault phase in the first place.

You're making assault moves. You don't need a rule that says that you make an assault move by making an assault move.

Your models are allowed to move within an inch of enemy models and are compelled to move into base contact with them. Regardless of all this debating they need to make it clear this is done by assaulting that model and it's unit and no other way.

insaniak wrote:

This rule is necessary to ensure the proper assault sequence occurs and is not bypassed by clever rules lawyers.

There is nothing to lawyer. You declare your assault. You make your assault moves. If you move a model with some action that is not an assault move, you are not making an assault move.

Yes, there would be. Your models are compelled into base contact with 'any enemy model'. If your model makes an assault move into base contact with a model belonging to a unit you did not declae against you could then claim not to be assaulting the unit. Fortunately they have the rule in question to prevent such foolishness.

insaniak wrote:

ts crucial that they state that base contact can only be made by assaulting not matter how you look at it. It IMO your reading way to much into it. The rules state:
"model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved"
"models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"
"may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting"
"If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model."

Yes, they state all of that. In two separate sections, one of which outlines the basic rules for assaulting, and one which adds the option to assault multiple units when you do so.

Pro-tip: Selectively pulling statements out of context from two distinct sections of the rules and rearranging them to suit your argument makes it look a little odd for you to be accusing those who disagree with you of 'reading too much into it...'

You still keep saying you get to choose or that it's and an option for you but those words do not appear here. The word 'you' does not appear in the assaulting multiple units section at all. The models get the ability to assault other enemy units and you do not get a choice on that. By this the model is given the abiltiy to make base contact with "any enemy model within reach"(which is why it's worded like that) when it is complelled to do so. And guess what proceeding with an assault is called... Assaulting!

This is a permissive rule system and since you are not given permission to declare or choose a second or multiple assault I believe your assessment here is overly complex and somewhat flawed.

Common Sense Tip: I already said it does not matter what order you put them in. They will still say the same things in another order and as they must all be observed at once it will be no different.

Common Sense Tip: Having there own subheading does not make rules optional


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:

Abandon wrote:In your opinion then, please tell how you are ever going to assault an additional unit without making base contact. Bearing in mind you are not permitted to declare a second assault(silently or otherwise).

Well first the rules specify you MUST declare your assault on the unit you shot at (if you did shoot.
Second the rules give you permission with the word can to assault other units, however you must still follow the rules for moving assaulting models.

You declare your assault and that gives your models permission to assault the target unit. After the first model does so the Assaulting Mutliple Units rules give the rest of your models(not you) permission to assault other enemy units in reach. It may seem like the same thing but it isn't. You are not given permission to give them permission like in the initial declaration but instead it is granted automaticly.

Abandon wrote:Your models are allowed to move within an inch of enemy models and are compelled to move into base contact with them. Regardless of all this debating they need to make it clear this is done by assaulting that model and it's unit and no other way.

The section detailing assault moves does not need to mention that you can't choose to make some other sort of movement in the assault phase. The fact that it doesn't give you permission to do so is sufficient.

If your model makes an assault move into base contact with a model belonging to a unit you did not declae against you could then claim not to be assaulting the unit.

No, you couldn't... because then you wouldn't be making an assault move, which is the only kind of movement you are given permission to make. And it wouldn't make a difference whether or not you claim to be not assaulting them, as the close combat rules require all models in base contact to fight in close combat.

Fortunately they have the rule in question to prevent such foolishness.

Yes, they have a rule to prevent such foolishness. It's just not the rule you think it is.

You still keep saying you get to choose or that it's and an option for you but those words do not appear here.

Yes, everyone on the other side of the argument keeps saying it's a choice... because that's what the rules say when you read them in the appropriate context rather than plucking specific statements out and rearranging them.

This is a permissive rule system and since you are not given permission to declare or choose a second or multiple assault I believe your assessment here is overly complex and somewhat flawed.

You declare an initial assault.
If models after the first are able to assault models from other units, they can do so.

How, exactly, is that 'overly complex'...?

Common Sense Tip: I already said it does not matter what order you put them in. They will still say the same things in another order and as they must all be observed at once it will be no different.

You did indeed say that. And several people have pointed out why that statement is false.

When you have a section that outlines the basic rules covering a part of the game, and then a separate section dealing with a slightly different situation, pulling rules out of that separate section and trying to apply them to the basic situation most certainly does change things.

Common Sense Tip: Having there own subheading does not make rules optional

Nobody has said that it does.

The rules offering something as an option is what makes them optional.

And again Abandon, you ignore context.

Remaining models CAN (Not Must) assault models belonging to other enemy units.

Mannahnin wrote:You're still disregarding the prohibition on moving into contact with units you're not assaulting. Your interpretation renders this prohibition meaningless, and thus cannot be correct.

A choice has to be made to engage any given unit. Once that choice is made, models in that unit become legal options for the assault moves sequence. But not until the assaulting player makes that choice..

This says it all.

insaniak wrote:Yes, they have a rule to prevent such foolishness. It's just not the rule you think it is.

Point is the rule would not be without meaning as you claimed.

insaniak wrote:You declare an initial assault.
If models after the first are able to assault models from other units, they can do so.

How, exactly, is that 'overly complex'...?

You seemed to be of the opinion that assaulting a unit requires more than the rules permission to assault and an assault move into base contact. So I thought anyways.. was that incorrect? If so I'll retract the statement as we would have the same view on it.

insaniak wrote:

Common Sense Tip: I already said it does not matter what order you put them in. They will still say the same things in another order and as they must all be observed at once it will be no different.

You did indeed say that. And several people have pointed out why that statement is false.

When you have a section that outlines the basic rules covering a part of the game, and then a separate section dealing with a slightly different situation, pulling rules out of that separate section and trying to apply them to the basic situation most certainly does change things..

That section states when it applies right in the beginging "As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting."

So when you find other enemy units in reach your models get permission to assault them.

insaniak wrote:

Common Sense Tip: Having there own subheading does not make rules optional

Nobody has said that it does.

Actually some have. I'm more or less trying to guess by what your statements why you think it's optional. The assulting models are given permission to assault other units when there are other enemies in reach. Nothing optional about that. They are compelled into base contact with any enemy model you have not already made base contact with if at all possible. Nothing optional about that either. Where is this option you keep insisting on?

insaniak wrote:The rules offering something as an option is what makes them optional.

Where is it offered as an option? Your moldels get permission to do something during a compullsory move at which point your options consist of enemy models you can get into contact with.

Tell you what guys if an assaulter is compelled to assault any unit he is within an inch of (and I don't think he is) it is certainly going to make for one hell of a defensive position on an objective.

Imagine, a battered remnant troop unit on the objective, only 2 models left !. Unit of 10 terminators on one side, Dreadnaught on the other , both placed in base contact with the troop unit but also so that they keep the enemy outside the 3" for contest.

Under the logic of mandatory assault an enemy would be compelled to take on the Termi's, the troops and the Dread, rather than assault past them to dislodge the troops from the objective.

Without mandatory assault you can strike at the remains of the troops unit, win the fight and the game

Abandon wrote:Point is the rule would not be without meaning as you claimed.

That's not really a point unless the rule actually means what you are trying to make it mean. Which it doesn't. You're saying that the bucket would be blue if it was blue. It's not.

You seemed to be of the opinion that assaulting a unit requires more than the rules permission to assault and an assault move into base contact. So I thought anyways.. was that incorrect? If so I'll retract the statement as we would have the same view on it.

Yes, that was incorrect.

That section states when it applies right in the beginging "As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting."

So when you find other enemy units in reach your models get permission to assault them.

Yes, you have permission to do so. That's the point that has been made right from the start of the thread.

Actually some have.

No, they haven't. If that's the impression you have, then that's something else that you have misunderstood over the course of this discussion.

The assulting models are given permission to assault other units when there are other enemies in reach. Nothing optional about that.

So, if you're given permission to have a cookie, you have to eat it?

They are compelled into base contact with any enemy model you have not already made base contact with if at all possible.

No, they are compelled into base contact with any enemy model from the target unit that is not already in base contact. They also have permission to assault models from other units if possible.

The only reason you think it is not optional is because you are trying to apply a rule that is dealing with charging a single unit to a situation that is different. When you apply the rules in context, you don't have that problem.

I'm with insaniak

"...with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models. ... and may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting."

Makes it pretty obvious to me that they can move within an inch of an enemy model, to run past it for example, but they are specifically denied the ability to move into base contact with it

then

"Then remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units..."

If it turns out they are able to assault an additional unit they CAN nowhere does it say must.

"Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible" and "If possible, the model must move into base contact with any enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an assaulting model"

Come from the section on simple assaults and cannot be taken to apply to the later specific case of multiple assaults.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about another extreme cheese case?

If we take it that all models in the assaulting unit must make base contact with any enemy unit if they are able to, even if that entails engaging an otherwise no-assaulted unit, that would mean that a unit deployed in 3 ranks with an enemy unit 4" to the front and another 4" to the left and another 4" to the right would be compelled to have the front rank advance to base contact with the unit in front and, as they can't get into base contact with the unit in front the second and third ranks would be compelled to attack to the flanks, half of each rank going each way and a bit jiggling to make sure they all stay coherent.

This would be a ludicrous situation, a bit of common sense fellas.

insaniak wrote:

You seemed to be of the opinion that assaulting a unit requires more than the rules permission to assault and an assault move into base contact. So I thought anyways.. was that incorrect? If so I'll retract the statement as we would have the same view on it.

Yes, that was incorrect.

Well there it is. The rules give the assaulting models permission to assault models of other units you did not declare against so they are valid targets for any assault move into base contact.
"remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units, as long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models"

insaniak wrote:

That section states when it applies right in the beginging "As you move assaulting models, you may find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting."

So when you find other enemy units in reach your models get permission to assault them.

Yes, you have permission to do so. That's the point that has been made right from the start of the thread.

It does not sat 'you can' it says the assaulting 'models can'. Basicley this means they are automatically granted the status of assaulting them with or without your permission. They can. They are able. They are permitted. They are clear for landing in base contact with any enemy model in reach. Where does it say your allowed to deny them this permission?

insaniak wrote:

The assulting models are given permission to assault other units when there are other enemies in reach. Nothing optional about that.

So, if you're given permission to have a cookie, you have to eat it?

If I wanted to obey the rule and there was a mandatory requirement stating that if possible, I must eat a cookie and there were no other cookies available then yes I would have to eat the cookie.

insaniak wrote:

They are compelled into base contact with any enemy model you have not already made base contact with if at all possible.

No, they are compelled into base contact with any enemy model from the target unit that is not already in base contact. They also have permission to assault models from other units if possible.

Why are you adding words that aren't there? from the target unit is not in there. If you going to judge by context why not the obvious as well? The words "any enemy model" are not used when a specific units models are meant. "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible – no holding back!"<<<Context

insaniak wrote:The only reason you think it is not optional is because you are trying to apply a rule that is dealing with charging a single unit to a situation that is different. When you apply the rules in context, you don't have that problem.

Why do you keep insisting that the rules for moving assaulting models are for assaulting a single unit only? What I know what you'll say... Because of the context right? Well that subheading mentions the target unit only once and that is to say the first model must make base contact with them in a very specific way. After that it says "any enemy model" for the rest and well... what context are you speaking of? In any case these happen to be the only rules for moving assaulting models. After it is explained, they add some additional rules for situations where there's more than one unit in reach.

The Assaulting Multiple Units subheading does not say (optional) next to it. It do applies whenever you "find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting" and it gives the assaulting models permission to assault those units models as well just like they got permission to assault the target unit when you declared the assault. All I'm saying is there is no viable reason to ignore any enemy models within reach when moving assaulting models.>

Abandon wrote:
Why do you keep insisting that the rules for moving assaulting models are for assaulting a single unit only? What I know what you'll say... Because of the context right? Well that subheading mentions the target unit only once and that is to say the first model must make base contact with them in a very specific way. After that it says "any enemy model" for the rest and well... what context are you speaking of? In any case these happen to be the only rules for moving assaulting models. After it is explained, they add some additional rules for situations where there's more than one unit in reach.

The Assaulting Multiple Units subheading does not say (optional) next to it. It do applies whenever you "find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting" and it gives the assaulting models permission to assault those units models as well just like they got permission to assault the target unit when you declared the assault. All I'm saying is there is no viable reason to ignore any enemy models within reach when moving assaulting models.>

First off, let me say that the Assault rules are not properly written. In some parts they act as if you should know exactly what you're going to have to assault ahead of time (the assaulting through terrain rules), but in the actual 'move assaulting units' rules as Insaniak points out the common interpretation is that you don't follow the multiple assault rules until you actually initiate contact with a second or subsequent unit by moving an assaulting model into contact with that new unit.

I think you have a valid interpretation of the rules here personally, but it is quite uncommon as you can see in this poll I ran on the topic (it is essentially 'choice B' in the poll...not exactly, but close enough that I think the same people who voted for that interpretation would vote for yours):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344366.page#2407802


What Insaniak is saying, is that if you took out the rules for 'Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units' out of the rulebook completely, the rules you'd have left would be for assaulting a single enemy unit...the one you declared the assault against (and the one you fired at, if applicable). So the 'basic' rules for moving assaulting models only gives you permission to assault that single unit.

Then the rules for assaulting multiple enemy units gives you the chance to assault more than that specified unit, but it is not written in a mandatory fashion like the basic assaulting rules are. Instead, it says that remaining models 'can assault models belonging to other enemy units'.

So as the basic assaulting rules only give permission to assault the declared target and the multiple assault rules only give the option to assault another unit, there is nothing there that explicitly says that you ever have to assault a second (or third, etc) enemy unit.

If the rules for assaulting multiple enemy units instead said:

'Then remaining models must assault models belonging to other enemy units, following the rules for for moving assaulting models.'


Then you would be totally correct and the popular sentiment of most gamers would be on your side. But unfortunately it doesn't say that so must people completely disagree with you.

The choice to assault a second unit is a voluntary choice. Once you engage that second unit, you then have to start moving models in against that second unit following the normal rules, but until you choose to move that first model into contact with the new unit, then the rules only give you permission to assault the unit you declared the assault against.

Abandon wrote:Well there it is. The rules give the assaulting models permission to assault models of other units you did not declare against so they are valid targets for any assault move into base contact.

They are valid targets if you choose to include them in the assault.

If you don't, then the rule stating that you can't move into base contact with models that you are not assaulting applies.

It does not sat 'you can' it says the assaulting 'models can'.

Of course it does. Unless I've had quite a bit too much bourbon, I very rarely jump onto the table and attack my opponent's models myself. I leave that to my models.

Basicley this means they are automatically granted the status of assaulting them with or without your permission. They can. They are able. They are permitted. They are clear for landing in base contact with any enemy model in reach. ...

...so long as they have decided to assault them.

Where does it say your allowed to deny them this permission?

Models are specifically forbidden from moving into base contact with models from an enemy unit that they are not assaulting.

We already covered the fact that this rule would be meaningless if your interpretation is correct. Ignoring that won't make it go away.

If I wanted to obey the rule and there was a mandatory requirement stating that if possible, I must eat a cookie and there were no other cookies available then yes I would have to eat the cookie.

...unless the rule requiring you to eat that particular cookie was presented as an option, and you were strictly forbidden from eating that cookie unless you take that option...

Why are you adding words that aren't there? from the target unit is not in there. If you going to judge by context why not the obvious as well?

I am judging by the obvious context. That's the whole point.

To go over it all one more time:

The basic assault rules are written in such a way as to be quite clear that they are dealing with assaults involving a single unit attacking a single unit. This is clear because they require you to declare your assault against a single unit, and strictly forbid you from moving into contact with a unit you are not assaulting.

So within that context, any rule in that section that refers to moving into contact with enemy models is talking about that single unit vs single unit assault.

Next, we are presented with a separate section that adds in the option to assault multiple units. This modifies the basic rules slightly, by allowing you to assault other units if they are in range. There is nothing in there, however, that over-rides the rule that you can not move into base contact with a unit that you are not assaulting. So in that context, you can assault other units, but you are not automatically assaulting them simply because they happen to be in range. You have to decide to assault them, because it is the actual decision to assault them that renders them a valid target for your models to move into contact with.

You can't just ignore those rules that don't suit your argument, nor can you take rules out of context and expect them to still mean anything.

Why do you keep insisting that the rules for moving assaulting models are for assaulting a single unit only?

Because they are.

Seriously, go have another read of the section. It specifically deals with choosing a single assault target and moving into base contact with them.

What I know what you'll say... Because of the context right?

No, you have that backwards. The context is what tells us that when they refer to enemy models in that section they are referring to enemy models from the target unit.

The bit that tells us that you declare your assault against a single enemy unit is what tells us that the section is dealing with assaulting a single enemy unit.

The assaulting player is never given permission to choose or declare an assault on an additional unit. If the line "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" meant the player must choose or declare on the unit to be 'assaulting' it then they would never be able to assault additional units because the rules for doing so state they must "keep following the rules for moving assaulting models". As you said, the assaulting multiple units rules do not overrule the rules for moving which makes multiple assaults impossible by your thinking.

These rules are not optional. One rule says if possible, I must eat a cookie and another rule says while I'm trying to eat cookies I may find there are other cookies in reach that do not belong to me. If so I can eat those cookies as long as I keep following the rules for consuming cookies. Wait, did you say theres a consuming cookies rule that says I can't eat other peoples cookies? Now I'm confused and hungry.

Seriously, the line "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting" cannot be forbidding contact for all units you did not declare against or the whole assaulting multiple units section would be canceled by it.

Perhaps we should just roll for it?

yakface wrote:
Then the rules for assaulting multiple enemy units gives you the chance to assault more than that specified unit, but it is not written in a mandatory fashion like the basic assaulting rules are. Instead, it says that remaining models 'can assault models belonging to other enemy units'.

So as the basic assaulting rules only give permission to assault the declared target and the multiple assault rules only give the option to assault another unit, there is nothing there that explicitly says that you ever have to assault a second (or third, etc) enemy unit.

Yes the rules in that section are permissive not compulsory except that they say you "keep following the rules for moving assaulting models" which are nothing if not mandatory. Since the rules come up when you "find it is possible to reach other enemy units that are close to the one you are assaulting" it seems the two should be considered as working together instead of as seperate rule sets and a more streamlined view allowing both to be in effect should be given priority.

yakface wrote:
I think you have a valid interpretation of the rules here personally, but it is quite uncommon as you can see in this poll I ran on the topic (it is essentially 'choice B' in the poll...not exactly, but close enough that I think the same people who voted for that interpretation would vote for yours):

I realized early into the thread that no one was going to change there minds about this so I've actually just been waiting for someone to openly admit that my ideas here are perfectly reasonable even though it's not the way it's actually played. Thank you yakface for your comments that now allow me to stop posting on this topic... and get on with my life.

To everyone who insisted I was wrong: The admin says my view makes sense

TY all, goodnight

So no roll then ?

Abandon wrote:I realized early into the thread that no one was going to change there minds about this so I've actually just been waiting for someone to openly admit that my ideas here are perfectly reasonable even though it's not the way it's actually played. Thank you yakface for your comments that now allow me to stop posting on this topic... and get on with my life.

To everyone who insisted I was wrong: The admin says my view makes sense

TY all, goodnight

So the whole point of this discussion was nothing more than to stroke your ego? Just to hear "you're right" from someone? Wow. Issues, party of one, your table is ready...

Magpie wrote:So no roll then ?

Not in a rules debate. Rolling off does not solve the problem in YMDC.

Abandon wrote:I realized early into the thread that no one was going to change there minds about this so I've actually just been waiting for someone to openly admit that my ideas here are perfectly reasonable even though it's not the way it's actually played. Thank you yakface for your comments that now allow me to stop posting on this topic... and get on with my life.

To everyone who insisted I was wrong: The admin says my view makes sense

TY all, goodnight

One guy out of 50 say you make sense? you may want to evaluate the thread a little better.

The admin that said your view makes sense, that holds no more weight than any other random poster on these boards saying that your view makes sense.

In all reality your view is incorrect.

Lord_Mortis wrote:

Abandon wrote:I realized early into the thread that no one was going to change there minds about this so I've actually just been waiting for someone to openly admit that my ideas here are perfectly reasonable even though it's not the way it's actually played. Thank you yakface for your comments that now allow me to stop posting on this topic... and get on with my life.

To everyone who insisted I was wrong: The admin says my view makes sense

TY all, goodnight

So the whole point of this discussion was nothing more than to stroke your ego? Just to hear "you're right" from someone? Wow. Issues, party of one, your table is ready...

More like I was wondering if anyone was willing to break out of the standard mold of how things are done to see the logic of what I was saying. I made my point, got to interact with some bright minded individuals and had a good debate about some rules that looked questionable to me. No offense intended in my bit of humor at the end I really did apreciate all the responces as they got me to think about things I had not considered and tried to return the favor for you all. So really, thank you all.

Abandon wrote:
More like I was wondering if anyone was willing to break out of the standard mold of how things are done to see the logic of what I was saying.

Logic which was incorrect.
I can see how you though that, but it does not make that reading a correct one.