Black Templars are massively over-strength by Codex standard. It doesn't matter as much, though, because their forces are spread so widely across the Imperium.
Ultramarines if you go by story alone (must be good if all other marines wish they were Ultramarines).
Black Templar if you go by common sense.
Grey Knights if you go by a mix of the two heavily leaning towards the first.
ElectricPaladin wrote:My chapter is the most powerful. You know which one - the one I play.
Grey Knights would be one of the most powerful. Any Chapter with the backing of the Inquisition would be very powerful. Crimson Fists maybe, they work close with the Inquisition.
The Minotaurs Chapter are supposed to have close ties to the High Lords of Terra themselves.
Then you have powerful because of numbers like the Templars and Wolves, which has been said before.
And powerful because of influence like Chapters of the first Founding.
Castiel wrote:
But the Black Templars would be going 10 on 1 with them. I don't care how good GKs are, they're not that good!
Believe me - they are.And your ratio is wrong: it would be 6 to 1.
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Castiel wrote:
But the Black Templars would be going 10 on 1 with them. I don't care how good GKs are, they're not that good!
Believe me - they are.And your ratio is wrong: it would be 6 to 1.
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Just ran those numbers through my super computer. It took a while but in the end, yes 6000:666 is about 10:1. Still working on the exact ratio.
Castiel wrote:
But the Black Templars would be going 10 on 1 with them. I don't care how good GKs are, they're not that good!
Believe me - they are.And your ratio is wrong: it would be 6 to 1.
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Isn't 666 the number of the Chapter and not the number in the Chapter? I thought the Grey Knights were a full chapter?
Castiel wrote:
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ).
And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes.
Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them.
I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.
If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ).
Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.
Brother Coa wrote:
Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ).
And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes.
Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them.
I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.
If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ).
Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.
GK have 1000 marines? ObliviousBlueCaboose was wrong earlier then. 6:1 it is then. As for Draigo and Stern? Meet Helbrecht and Grimaldus. I still think, fluff armour aside, that the BT's weight of numbers would win it.
And your right about the Ultramarines winning it, like I said above, their influence probably makes them the single most powerful SM chapter!
I would have to go with Castiel. The grey knights may be powerful but to have a 6 to 1 ratio, the odds really are stacked against them. Especially considering they are fighting over zealous religious fanatics (even more so than your average SM).
One thing to keep in mind when talking about chapter vs chapter is that this really is SW's home turf as they were the and are still known as the emperors executioners and still retain their anti power armour heavy arsenal as far as I know. They also house more marines than an average chapter but still nowhere near the numbers that the BT field.
OP, the power question really depends on what kind of power you are talking about.
The Ultramarines have a lot of power and influence - First Founding, a realm of their own, Second Founding chapters and descendants that respond if called... But they also like to stay in their own backyard.
Blood Angels are a First Founding, they have one of if not the most respected Chapter Master in the Imperium, and their Second Foundings can often be counted on to respond too. And as Dante sees all the Imperium as his responsibility the BA have fought on countless worlds, gathering a great deal of good will... somewhat diluted by the excesses of some of their inheritors, ofc.
Black Templars like to (re)conquer worlds for the Imperium and have several crusade fleets out there - they surely have a lot of pull if they start reminding the High Lords of Terra about this. And seeing how they're a Second Founding of the Imperial Fists, the defenders of Terra... it's a powerful and well-respected block of chapters.
Space Wolves are powerful for sure, but their disregard for the Codex and their independent nature also cuts into their political influence.
I agree that the Black Templars outnumber the Ultramarines, without a doubt, but I'm pretty sure that more than enough Marines from successor Chapters would show up to even the score if Calgar so much as made a burp that sounded like 'help.' Hell, they'd also be besieged by Chapters who had Calgar, since it woud give them a chance to show the Ultramarines up.
n0t_u wrote:Ultramarines if you go by story alone (must be good if all other marines wish they were Ultramarines).
Black Templar if you go by common sense.
Grey Knights if you go by a mix of the two heavily leaning towards the first.
ElectricPaladin wrote:My chapter is the most powerful. You know which one - the one I play.
Another chapter that can call upon it's successors (although in a far more limited fashion) is the Dark Angels, as every successor chapters Chapter Master is a member of the DA inner circle and sworn to serve the Grand Master of the Dark Angels. This would really only be used if a large number of Fallen were found, but it theoretically could be done.
Hate to say it but Ultramarines. As was said above, Calgar can speed dial maaaaany other chapters to come help me. Also, you have to remember the Ultramarines have an entire SYSTEM. They have a higher recruitment rate just because they have a number of relativity close planets.
Well for a start he isn't stuck in the Warp 24/7, which is quite an advantage. also his rules are way behind the GK's. However, I don't think he quite matches heart carving standards, I was more making the point that the Black Templars also have their own special characters.
Let me be the first to say that I think GKs suck. Their Dreadnought just looks wrong, not gothic at all, and one of their heroes wields a demon blade? Why are the DEAMONHUNTRS the only non heresy chapter to do that? It's Heresy. Fulgrim had a heretical sword once... Erebus stole one too, the same one that stabbed Horus right before he turned. Need I go on?
Let me be the first to mention that versus the Grey Knights, numbers do not matter. Because of one man that I have given serious attention to over the last couple of weeks.
Justicar Anval Thawn.
This Grey Knight Terminator (who are already storywise capable of wiping out planets of deamons when in squads) who has already died a significant number of times yet still always comes back.
None can stand against the power of immortality.
Also, paladins are silly. Their initiation involves banishing one of the 666 most powerful deamons ever to have materialized, whilst wearing nothing but robes and armed with a sword and nothing else. Mind you, a single paladin is worth a hundred regular Grey Knights who in turn value at dozens of regular space marines. Fluffwise; that is.
1 on 1 (with avg battle brothers) GK wipe the floor with anyone else just because they have more training and better equipment.
Chapter on Chapter, BT or Space Wolves. Not only do both have numbers, but both are also very determined, and the Wolves have practice already.
In reality, as much as I hate to say it, Smurfs or DA are probably the most powerful because Calgar or Azrael just has to sneeze and they will have most if not all successor chapters to back them up. DA are especially threatening as they have no problem killing anyone who finds out about the Fal-*BLAM* Brother Chapters, we know not what you are talking about.
Pure Chapter-vs-Chapter slug out means Templars win. Draigo is powerful against Daemons and other warp-related entities because he was made to be; his runes, anti-psyker wargear and purity of mind won't do squat (heh, "squat") against someone who has no connection to the Warp. He's still dead hard and likely superior to any one Templar, but none of that matters when the Black Templars Chapter Fleet comes a-knockin'.
If politics is involved, Blood Angels, Dark Angels or (most likely) Ultramarines.
I'd say the Imperial Fists, for their home is Terra, the very centre of the Imperium with all of its forces & defences. They & their successor Chapters form a very tight-knit brotherhood of Astartes and this includes the Black Templars which gives them a pretty big reserve to call upon.
Sparks_Havelock wrote:I'd say the Imperial Fists, for their home is Terra, the very centre of the Imperium with all of its forces & defences. They & their successor Chapters form a very tight-knit brotherhood of Astartes and this includes the Black Templars which gives them a pretty big reserve to call upon.
Shame that so many people forget IF's exist
True, the IF get not enough attention for how good they are.
Black Templar Specialize against psykers this training would inherently prove a powerful tool against the GK chapter if there was side on side (which there would not be). Personally if you ask me who wins, BT not because of their affinity for slaying psykers being resistant as hell to them and cutting them up for existing but rather they are battlefleet chapter and their ships would more than likely out-class the Gk ships due to the amount of ship battle they already have done in the name of the Emperor while GK to my knowledge not nearly as much.
I'd go with Ultramarines. As was already mentioned, they have the advantage of being able to call on support from their numeorus successors and Codex-following Chapters, and they have the realm of Ultramar backing them up as well. They'd probably also have a lot of influence with the High Lords.
BTNeophyte wrote:1 on 1 (with avg battle brothers) GK wipe the floor with anyone else just because they have more training and better equipment.
Chapter on Chapter, BT or Space Wolves. Not only do both have numbers, but both are also very determined, and the Wolves have practice already.
In reality, as much as I hate to say it, Smurfs or DA are probably the most powerful because Calgar or Azrael just has to sneeze and they will have most if not all successor chapters to back them up. DA are especially threatening as they have no problem killing anyone who finds out about the Fal-*BLAM* Brother Chapters, we know not what you are talking about.
hahahaha why do you think we wear the robes........ to hide the bodies behind us.
also keep in mind we have a chapter that is only rumoured there is no record of them.
the disciples of caliban were asked for and no one knows why (outside of our inner circle).
we go around ad do as we please in our giant flying deathstar
They split up in name only. The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels is still the commander of all the Unforgiven chapters.
This sort of applies to the Space Wolves too, since they only made one token successor which was then wiped out and none since. But they've suffered far more losses.
Thatguy91 wrote:One thing to keep in mind when talking about chapter vs chapter is that this really is SW's home turf as they were the and are still known as the emperors executioners and still retain their anti power armour heavy arsenal as far as I know.
I don't think there was ever any indication that the Space Wolves had large stockpiles of AP3/2 type weapons.
People are saying ultramarines are the most powerful because the can call their successor chapters to fight with them.By the same argument think about what the grey knights are,the chamber militant of theinquisition meaning an inquisitor can get whatever he wants to back up the grey knights meaning they effectively have the entire imperium as well as ad mech to back them up
I think you'll find that both the AdMech and the Imperial Navy would disagree. In fact, purely faction on faction, the Imperial Guard loses to everyone, as they don't have their own transports.
In that case...
Nothing can overpower the Adeptus Mechanicus - they have fleet and the biggest guns in the entire Imeprium. And they hold all the technology.
Case closed.
CrashCanuck wrote:In terms of quality of each marine, Grey Knights
In terms of numbers of their own chapter, Black Templar or Space Wolves
In terms of own numbers + calling on descendants, Ultramarines or Blood Angels (think the Assault on Baal)
Exactly what I'm saying!
Castiel wrote:
CrashCanuck wrote:In terms of quality of each marine, Grey Knights
In terms of numbers of their own chapter, Black Templar or Space Wolves
In terms of own numbers + calling on descendants, Ultramarines or Blood Angels (think the Assault on Baal)
Exactly what I'm saying!
I don't think an argument can really be made past that. IMHO you two are correct, just correct period. (regarding the original question of this thread)
Either Grey Knights (quality/access to weaponry) or Black Templars (size).
Dark Angels seem to have close, almost subversive ties to many successor chapters such as the Angels of Absolution/Angels of Redemption/Disciples of Caliban as well. My guess is the DA command these chapters loyalty much more then the Adeptus Terra, and this DA alliance is something of a shadow empire.
Ultras - control a whole quadrant of the Imperium. Also - following the fluff, they seem to conveniently be absent from the most horrific bloodbaths so they are relatively intact no beat up like the crimson fists, etc.
Ultramarines because Matt fething Ward said all other space marines aspire to be like Ultramarines and Marneus Calgar is the spiritual liege to many chapters. So being the spiritual liege and all, he can call on Grey Knights to help beat down Grey Knights. ~
Harriticus wrote:
Dark Angels seem to have close, almost subversive ties to many successor chapters such as the Angels of Absolution/Angels of Redemption/Disciples of Caliban as well. My guess is the DA command these chapters loyalty much more then the Adeptus Terra, and this DA alliance is something of a shadow empire.
They aren't subversive ties, they're direct chain of command. The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels is in charge of all the Unforgiven.
Harriticus wrote:
Dark Angels seem to have close, almost subversive ties to many successor chapters such as the Angels of Absolution/Angels of Redemption/Disciples of Caliban as well. My guess is the DA command these chapters loyalty much more then the Adeptus Terra, and this DA alliance is something of a shadow empire.
They aren't subversive ties, they're direct chain of command. The Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels is in charge of all the Unforgiven.
Didn't the DA codex mention one successor chapter that isn't under the thumb of the DA? They decided to ditch chasing after the fallen and now do their own thing. Totally forget the name though.
daveNYC wrote:
Didn't the DA codex mention one successor chapter that isn't under the thumb of the DA? They decided to ditch chasing after the fallen and now do their own thing. Totally forget the name though.
Only thing close to that is the Angels of Absolution who already consider themselves free of guilt concerning the Fallen. They are explicitly still part of the Dark Angels pyramid though.
As a fan of stealth, I'm a Raven Guard fanboy. And as anyone in Special Forces can tell you, stealth, experience and skill make up for numbers. So take that, Ultrasmurfs!
The whole "Ultramarines because they have successor chapters" argument I find to be kinda invalid. Almost any first founding chapter could do the same. Sure, the ultramarines might have a whole bunch of them sitting around but so do most other first founding chapters.
IF, as mentioned earlier, have ALOT of them aswell, including the BT. Although it is questionable whether or not they would answer the call.
DA also have a whole bunch of them and they are utterly ruthless. Dont forget that the Deathwing and Ravenwing are included here.
BA have heaps of them and some of them are mental so you would have quite a fight on your hands.
Btw totally agree with the IF dont get enough attention thing. They are, atleast to me, the most interesting chapter and really deserved to be fleshed out alot more. Big fan of Rogal Dorn aswell, would love to see a IF codex or atleast some more info on them in future releases.
imo based on what I've read from and the like Dark Angels really seem to be the only one whose successor chapters can be considered part of their "power", it seems like a formal chain of command.
Ultramarines have 8 systems and a large/capable PDF, but otherwise the epitome of a Codex Chapter so 1,000 Marines and 2-3 Battle Barges. They can't stand up to the GK/Black Templars (if the latter was ever fully assembled, which it isn't) or the Dark Angels coalition.
It pains me to say it but Im going with Smurfs. They have the whole package. Strong political ties and a whole empire to work from. Not only are they a vastley experienced chapter in thier own right but if thier successors were to answer a call of aid then I dont think any other chapter could match the numbers. Maybe the IF and BT?
Thatguy91 wrote:The whole "Ultramarines because they have successor chapters" argument I find to be kinda invalid. Almost any first founding chapter could do the same. Sure, the ultramarines might have a whole bunch of them sitting around but so do most other first founding chapters.
.
Yeah but the thing is 1.) 60% of all chapters today are descended from Ultras and 2.) C:SM explicitly says that if Calgar snaps his fingers they will all come running since he is their spiritual liege. I don't know if the Red Talons and the Brazen Claws have a similar affinity to the Iron Hands but for the sake of argument let us assume they do.
The fact remains that no other first founding legion can match the Ultras, simple math says the balance 40% of successor chapters are split 6 ways (Salamanders and Space Wolves are not included) no way that compares to the Ultras. And yes for some founders (say IF) their successor chapters may be overstrength (BT) but likewise others are depleted (Crimson Fists) so we can just agree its a wash.
So even though I don't really like them at all I have to give it to the Ultramarines :p
Ultrasmurfs may have an empire but that doesn't do much.
I think its between:
Black Templars: Numbers and sheers fanaticism
Grey Knights: Superior weapons and training
Blood Angels: Can you really get past that many Assault Marines, Death Company, Baal Predators and all the Land Raiders they drop on top of you? Oh and I forgot Mephiston, Lemartes and Dante, shame Tycho's dead really.
This really depends on fleet superiority as well, then I think its definitely the Grey Knights.
All sm chapters are the same, but which is the powerful in terms of ire power numbers, librarians ect. And of course why?
Chapter with most numbers: Black Templar. Why? They pretty much declare any marine who they cant see in person dead and replace him. But never have more than 1000 brothers in any given place.
Chapter with most librarians: Blood Ravens. Why? Their gene seed is almost definitely from the sorcerer primarch Magnus, so they are more common.
And the rest;
The Ultramarines definitely have the most successors, but as far as all of them doing whatever Calgar says that's just not the case.
They're completely different organisations and have been separate for thousands of years.
A lot of them don't even adhere to the Codex Astartes, and are stationed no where near Ultramar.
Obviously this is all silly and just speculation but I think Dante the Blood Angel chapter master would command more respect from his legions successors than Calgar
With Dark Angels though the supreme grand master of the founding chapter remains (secretly and illegally) in charge of all the successors.
So basically they're still a legion in all but name. Their first company is probably the most "powerful" in the Imperium too
The rock is suppose to be one of the Imperiums strongest space fortress/ships as well, with the Imperial fists Phalax suppose to be the only thing better.
phantommaster wrote:Ultrasmurfs may have an empire but that doesn't do much.
I think its between:
Black Templars: Numbers and sheers fanaticism
Grey Knights: Superior weapons and training
Blood Angels: Can you really get past that many Assault Marines, Death Company, Baal Predators and all the Land Raiders they drop on top of you? Oh and I forgot Mephiston, Lemartes and Dante, shame Tycho's dead really.
This really depends on fleet superiority as well, then I think its definitely the Grey Knights.
Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.
Question: Fluff wise how many SW great companies are there? No I know that their size can greatly vary but it seems to me that the space vikings might be uncoordinated but if Logan called for a raid, I think it would be a pain in the a$$.
While I agree with a lot of the commentary about the DA being powerful. Their great secret leads them to not trust anyone outside of the circle. So assuming it is not a pure power struggle (i.e. Marneus sets himself up as the new emporer) the Ultramarines are default going to win the political battle of the Dark Angels. So say the Ultramarines only get 60% of their chapters to do their bidding while the DA get 100%. I would bet that the ultramarines will get some other chapter to back them through politics and gladly accept their aid while the Dark Angels will distrust anyone in all but a diversionary way.
DAaddict wrote:Question: Fluff wise how many SW great companies are there? No I know that their size can greatly vary but it seems to me that the space vikings might be uncoordinated but if Logan called for a raid, I think it would be a pain in the a$$.
While I agree with a lot of the commentary about the DA being powerful. Their great secret leads them to not trust anyone outside of the circle. So assuming it is not a pure power struggle (i.e. Marneus sets himself up as the new emporer) the Ultramarines are default going to win the political battle of the Dark Angels. So say the Ultramarines only get 60% of their chapters to do their bidding while the DA get 100%. I would bet that the ultramarines will get some other chapter to back them through politics and gladly accept their aid while the Dark Angels will distrust anyone in all but a diversionary way.
Politics play little to no role in this most chapter feel greater kinship to the emepror rather than their founding chapter the BA and Da are notable exceptions
Draigo wrote:Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.
Well their minimal fleet activity helps to keep their presence to a low - in and out before anyone notices, etc. But I'm not sure where you get the notion of struggling to supplant other chapters from. They've always been willing and able to deploy enough troops to do that task when required. Considering the state they left the Flame Falcons and the Relictors in, they're very good at doing so too.
Draigo wrote:Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.
Well their minimal fleet activity helps to keep their presence to a low - in and out before anyone notices, etc. But I'm not sure where you get the notion of struggling to supplant other chapters from. They've always been willing and able to deploy enough troops to do that task when required. Considering the state they left the Flame Falcons and the Relictors in, they're very good at doing so too.
So youd compare the Flame Falcons and Relicators to fighting Smurfs, BT, BA etc with the help of their secondary chapters? Really? I hardly would compare fighting those to fighting the entire umbrella of the ultramarines and their influence. Without the Inquisition the gk have no fleet to speak of. So unless you include the Inquisition and grey knights vs the others the GK alone dont stand a chance vs the others. The others have every aspect of war included from recon to heavy weapons. The gk do not because once again they count on their allies to do those things. I wouldnt get all hyped up by the gk alone just because they have a good codex and are strong WITH the Inquisition. As a stand alone force they cannot take larger chapters with more influence like the UM, BT, IF, etc.
There was at least one officially listed, they were organized as codex I believe, but part of their initiation was to be possessed for a short time (I forget just how long) the result of this was that the marines were virtually invisible to daemons. I think they sent 100 of them to a daemon planet with a kill ratio of around 1000:1.
CrashCanuck wrote:There was at least one officially listed, they were organized as codex I believe, but part of their initiation was to be possessed for a short time (I forget just how long) the result of this was that the marines were virtually invisible to daemons. I think they sent 100 of them to a daemon planet with a kill ratio of around 1000:1.
I do recall things like that, though I can not remember the name. I did not know about that KDR though. If that is true, then that is impressive, even for SM.
They have to be possessed for at least 12 hours during which they have to struggle to not fall to chaos. The possession and exorcism makes them invisible to all but the strongest of daemons. According to lexicanum, they have at least 12 companies.
Okay, I'm back on comp: According to Warhammer 40k Wiki, it's 12 companies. It also appears that their Captain of 3rd Company, Silas Alberec, is HUGE (like Ogryn huge), he's slated to be the next Chapter Master who is currently unknown.
Why is it that whenever it comes down to chapter vs chapter. The Ultramarines always seem to float by on the fact that they have greater resources then XYZ but not skill? So essentiallly its just IG tactics for them now and forever.
If the Grey Knights were backed by the Inquisition like we all know they will be I don't see them losing any engagement. They are the "best" chapter.
The Ultramarines hands down. Owns at least one empire. And if old fluff is to be believed two of their second founding chapters owns their own empires.
By the individual Space marines it must be the Grey Knights.
As for the overall most powerful soldiers in the Imperium of Mankind it's the Custodes. Their basic trooper likely would have S: 5, T: 5 and so on.
Draigo wrote:So youd compare the Flame Falcons and Relicators to fighting Smurfs, BT, BA etc with the help of their secondary chapters? Really? I hardly would compare fighting those to fighting the entire umbrella of the ultramarines and their influence. Without the Inquisition the gk have no fleet to speak of. So unless you include the Inquisition and grey knights vs the others the GK alone dont stand a chance vs the others. The others have every aspect of war included from recon to heavy weapons. The gk do not because once again they count on their allies to do those things. I wouldnt get all hyped up by the gk alone just because they have a good codex and are strong WITH the Inquisition. As a stand alone force they cannot take larger chapters with more influence like the UM, BT, IF, etc.
And yet even founding chapters like the BA readily agree to yield to drastic demands like mindwipes. I'm not mentioning this stuff because i think they have a "good" codex. They've long been portrayed as a powerful chapter. I just think for someone who uses an GK-based name/avatar you don't give them enough credit or seem to acknowledge much of their fluff. For example, their chapter has a fleet 'to speak' of. One that would [to quote] be "the envy of the wider Imperium, were knowledge of it's capabilities known beyond Titan". They just don't put it on parade for everyone else to gawk at.
Admittedly, I misunderstood the stance on this situation beforehand and I wouldn't have otherwise normally gotten involved in a hypothetical situations like this, because it's silly beyond belief. Just stand back and ask - would any of this really happen? Would all those UM successors be able to shift their weight so immediately? Would the Grey Knight's be stupid enough to engage in such a ridiculous stacked situation, let alone on their own? Etc, etc. It's just as likely as that either chapter would teleport marines into your room to talk about their favourite herbal tea.
The Emperor's Pointy Sticks are clearly the most powerful chapter. They got blown to bits in nearly every battle they fought and still managed to be back at full strenght in the next comic strip.
Draigo wrote:So youd compare the Flame Falcons and Relicators to fighting Smurfs, BT, BA etc with the help of their secondary chapters? Really? I hardly would compare fighting those to fighting the entire umbrella of the ultramarines and their influence. Without the Inquisition the gk have no fleet to speak of. So unless you include the Inquisition and grey knights vs the others the GK alone dont stand a chance vs the others. The others have every aspect of war included from recon to heavy weapons. The gk do not because once again they count on their allies to do those things. I wouldnt get all hyped up by the gk alone just because they have a good codex and are strong WITH the Inquisition. As a stand alone force they cannot take larger chapters with more influence like the UM, BT, IF, etc.
And yet even founding chapters like the BA readily agree to yield to drastic demands like mindwipes. I'm not mentioning this stuff because i think they have a "good" codex. They've long been portrayed as a powerful chapter. I just think for someone who uses an GK-based name/avatar you don't give them enough credit or seem to acknowledge much of their fluff. For example, their chapter has a fleet 'to speak' of. One that would [to quote] be "the envy of the wider Imperium, were knowledge of it's capabilities known beyond Titan". They just don't put it on parade for everyone else to gawk at.
Admittedly, I misunderstood the stance on this situation beforehand and I wouldn't have otherwise normally gotten involved in a hypothetical situations like this, because it's silly beyond belief. Just stand back and ask - would any of this really happen? Would all those UM successors be able to shift their weight so immediately? Would the Grey Knight's be stupid enough to engage in such a ridiculous stacked situation, let alone on their own? Etc, etc. It's just as likely as that either chapter would teleport marines into your room to talk about their favourite herbal tea.
What does name and avatar have to do with facts? Just because I like the gk doesnt mean I'll say they'd wipe people out if I didnt think they could. Theyre not a well rounded army. They count too much on the inquisition/IG. Itd be like saying the BT terminators could take the smurfs.
These facts aren't that accurate. First there was the comment about the Grey Knight fleet and now you're stating that they're reliant on other forces, when it's often other imperial forces like the Inquisition that invariably call on them as a final solution. Besides, it's not so much a 'reliance' on other imperial forces as much as it is just the synergy of united force working to its collective strengths. Human forces are often treated no differently when working with other chapters – the masses taking on the brunt of the impact while the elite tackle the most difficult and/or important targets.
They turned there home world into a Space Ship, doesn't get more "Come at my bro" when you can fly your planet over the enemies and challenge them to a duel.
They turned there home world into a Space Ship, doesn't get more "Come at my bro" when you can fly your planet over the enemies and challenge them to a duel.
Actually, I think the Phalanx is bigger - its described as the size of a small moon. The Rock isn't the whole of Caliban, but is believed to be a small fragment of it.
rockerbikie wrote:Space Wolves. They have at 1400 Marines, they have alot of Psykers and they use tactics that generally work well.
+++WARNING: INCOMING BLACK TEMPLAR BIAS+++
Bah! The unknown sized but definitely-more-than-1400 Chapter known as the Black Templars laugh at your puny cubs and their cowardly, unclean psykers. They curbstomp the lot of you with their immense fleet and zealous, fanatical masses of troops.
phantommaster wrote:Ultrasmurfs may have an empire but that doesn't do much.
I think its between:
Black Templars: Numbers and sheers fanaticism
Grey Knights: Superior weapons and training
Blood Angels: Can you really get past that many Assault Marines, Death Company, Baal Predators and all the Land Raiders they drop on top of you? Oh and I forgot Mephiston, Lemartes and Dante, shame Tycho's dead really.
This really depends on fleet superiority as well, then I think its definitely the Grey Knights.
Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.
I presume you have read the GK Omnibus here, they have easily the toughest ships in the Imperium and its not as though they are without firepower. They make good use of the best of the Imperium resources. They are independent of the Inquisition, the Inquisition uses them as its main anti-Daemon Astartes. They have stated many times that they are not just at the beck and call of the Inqisition. They make the choice themselves whether they deem the mission worth their presence. The Grand Masters have overall decision of what they do. All armies can be overwhelmed by numbers but GK still have 1000men the same size as most other single Chapters. I wouldn't like to face 100 GK's, they are superior in every way to normal marines. They still have transports, LR's they get Stormravens, Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights.
I thought this was a one on one chapter thing. If then its definitely Blood Angels, crazy successor chapters as well? I doubt even the Ultramarines can control that especially with aformentioned BA vehicles.
rockerbikie wrote:Space Wolves. They have at 1400 Marines, they have alot of Psykers and they use tactics that generally work well.
Oh the hypocrisy.
I know it is hypocrisy but Leman thought he had to destroy the Thousand Sons not bring them back. Blame Horrus not Leman. Also, the access to Fenrisian Wolves and cavalry makes them even cooler.
phantommaster wrote:Ultrasmurfs may have an empire but that doesn't do much.
I think its between:
Black Templars: Numbers and sheers fanaticism
Grey Knights: Superior weapons and training
Blood Angels: Can you really get past that many Assault Marines, Death Company, Baal Predators and all the Land Raiders they drop on top of you? Oh and I forgot Mephiston, Lemartes and Dante, shame Tycho's dead really.
This really depends on fleet superiority as well, then I think its definitely the Grey Knights.
Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.
I presume you have read the GK Omnibus here, they have easily the toughest ships in the Imperium and its not as though they are without firepower. They make good use of the best of the Imperium resources. They are independent of the Inquisition, the Inquisition uses them as its main anti-Daemon Astartes. They have stated many times that they are not just at the beck and call of the Inqisition. They make the choice themselves whether they deem the mission worth their presence. The Grand Masters have overall decision of what they do. All armies can be overwhelmed by numbers but GK still have 1000men the same size as most other single Chapters. I wouldn't like to face 100 GK's, they are superior in every way to normal marines. They still have transports, LR's they get Stormravens, Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights.
I thought this was a one on one chapter thing. If then its definitely Blood Angels, crazy successor chapters as well? I doubt even the Ultramarines can control that especially with aformentioned BA vehicles.
They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.
Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.
The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".
As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.
Grey Knights by far, they have numbers greater than any codex chapter and each individual's training and abilities far surpass those of a Black Templar, Space Wolf, or any other non-codex chapter marine. And that is only before you get to the aegis armor or force weapons and all of the other equipment.
cordan123 wrote:Grey Knights by far, they have numbers greater than any codex chapter and each individual's training and abilities far surpass those of a Black Templar, Space Wolf, or any other non-codex chapter marine. And that is only before you get to the aegis armor or force weapons and all of the other equipment.
I thought the new Codex had them back dwon to 1000 Marines ?
I would go with one of these
Ultramarines - due to having own realm and resources, connections and infleunce with their successor Chapters
Black Templars - They are known to have thousands of Marines maybe as many as 10,000 or even more
Several Chapters like the Iron Hands have very strong links with the Mechancius - which is worth a lot.............
Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.
The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".
As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.
You seem to pick and choose examples and then when they dont fully support your opinion you jump to the next. Youre wanting to use reconned or black library stories that do not exist anymore and do little to distinguish the actual gk forces from the inquisition because they always are assumed working together. In reality with the new codexes edits to their history theyre more capable alone then they ever were using old fluff. But it doesnt matter in an actual war they will not win.
Just because in a staright fight a squad of gk woul beat a squad of smurfs doesnt mean a thing. Thats not how wars are fought. Prime example is the vietname war. US was larger AND stronger but still lost. Here the Smurfs ARE the larger force and better supplied to conduct a war. They also can fight in all phases which makes them more versatile. Sorry but we dont win wars today running at each other. Without gk getting help from the Inquisition gk have no supplier. You cant say mars because well they supply both sides. Smurfs just have more firepower and resources. Sorry but gk lose.
GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.
How is that example relevant? In the gk omnimbus alric a justicar at the time was shot down by lasguns from untrained cultists. If thatd been a marines sniper hed have no head. You cant use black library. You have to look at how wars are fought and resources. Cause Im sorry im doubt the smurfs would try to win in a cage fight style war. Theyd lose 1 on 1.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.
How is that example relevant? In the gk omnimbus alric a justicar at the time was shot down by lasguns from untrained cultists. If thatd been a marines sniper hed have no head. You cant use black library. You have to look at how wars are fought and resources. Cause Im sorry im doubt the smurfs would try to win in a cage fight style war. Theyd lose 1 on 1.
I am only trying to state how superior they are. If a basic GK beats both a captain and a sgt, even when we are not counting in his superior wargear and psychic power, then you can imagine how it would go when he uses them. A justicar shot down by lasguns? I have never seen something like that, but sure, some may think that'd be possible.
GK ships are powerful as other SM ships- except that they are of superior craft, crew and weaponry, of course, but it seems you conside that irrelevant. Gk is also really subtle; if figting ultras they could easily blast apart ultramar before the massed successors could respond.
Remember that GK's are really pushed down in the rules. Gw wants you to buy a lot of them to play in high points matches.
GK do not need the inquisiton at all. If you doubt as to the power of Gk ships, I could get you some pictures that attest otherwise.....
If everyone both carries highly protective armor (to the point of artificier-level, to say the least) and carry stormbolters (and more than know how to use them) then firefights should be for from a trouble. And if BT would try to get close....
In fact, I just realised that comparing it to a fight of gretchin against stormtroopers is an apt one, don't you think?
In a list: 1) Ultramarines-Massive political power. 2) Dark Angels-Again political power plus a massive space ship 3) Space Wolves-Some political power (With various organisations of the Imperium though they have an equal nuber of rivals) plus numbers and their position in the galaxy. 4) Imperial Fists- Really massive spaceship and some political power... 5) Black Templars-Numbers (They are too spread out for their numbers to be effective against any 1 target)
That's my opinion. GK don't count as a proper SM chapter IMO. They are but they don't act like one since they serve as the Inquisition's chamber militant...
BrotherHaraldus wrote:GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.
How is that example relevant? In the gk omnimbus alric a justicar at the time was shot down by lasguns from untrained cultists. If thatd been a marines sniper hed have no head. You cant use black library. You have to look at how wars are fought and resources. Cause Im sorry im doubt the smurfs would try to win in a cage fight style war. Theyd lose 1 on 1.
I am only trying to state how superior they are. If a basic GK beats both a captain and a sgt, even when we are not counting in his superior wargear and psychic power, then you can imagine how it would go when he uses them. A justicar shot down by lasguns? I have never seen something like that, but sure, some may think that'd be possible.
GK ships are powerful as other SM ships- except that they are of superior craft, crew and weaponry, of course, but it seems you conside that irrelevant. Gk is also really subtle; if figting ultras they could easily blast apart ultramar before the massed successors could respond.
Remember that GK's are really pushed down in the rules. Gw wants you to buy a lot of them to play in high points matches.
GK do not need the inquisiton at all. If you doubt as to the power of Gk ships, I could get you some pictures that attest otherwise.....
If everyone both carries highly protective armor (to the point of artificier-level, to say the least) and carry stormbolters (and more than know how to use them) then firefights should be for from a trouble. And if BT would try to get close....
In fact, I just realised that comparing it to a fight of gretchin against stormtroopers is an apt one, don't you think?
So you use killing ground but you say youhavent read their actual omnimbus where the gk get wrecked by cultists so it may or not be possible? Um it happen read the book. The "gk ships" are malleus ships piloted by the Inquisition. Again use your own source black library. Also powers are irrelevant since again use your own source black library not every gk can actually use powers in an offensive manner. Only 1 of the 10 characters actually was able to use an offensive power. He was the leader of the terminators. Which again was retconned by the new codex since now only paladins can use holocaust. So dex trumps books as far as cannon. So here we have anoher reason gk cant win.
1. You dont have powers tha tmake a difference.
2. You dont have a fleet.
3. You do not have resources on Titan without outside help.
4. You have nothing but shock troops.
5. You don't have a lot of heavy support since gk are not huge fans of becoming dreadnaughts.
6. Your heavy hitters can't participate since theyre in the warp or carrying weapons that make everyone wanna smash their face in.
7. Youre incredibly slow to replace losses since you only take psy potential which make up their resistnce to the warp not offense.
8. If you refuse to accept the black library isnt relevant you need to read more becuse gk get their ass handed to em by IG, untrained cultitsts, etc. too killing ground is not the only source.
9. You get your stuff from Mars like everyone else.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:GK, no matter what.
Most chapters select their initiates from the best of their homeworld (or, in the case of the BT, the best of the worlds they stumble across, i suppose.) The GK take the best of the imperium. I do not think people here understand the overwhelming size of the imperium. having billions upon billions of worlds to choose from, and having agents that constantly search for initiates gives you an advantage. They have the best wargear, psychic abilities, and better training. In the book Killing Ground, one (might be a justicar though, but i think not) grey knight (unarmed and unarmoured) beats down one ultramarine captain and one ultramarine sergeant (also unarmed and unarmoured), and he does not even use his psychic abilities. A Grey Knight are so superior to other SM that they do not play in the same league. If they fought BT, it would be a massacre. I agree, grimaldus IS badass, but he is not immune to having a nemesis force sword stuck up his nose.
How is that example relevant? In the gk omnimbus alric a justicar at the time was shot down by lasguns from untrained cultists. If thatd been a marines sniper hed have no head. You cant use black library. You have to look at how wars are fought and resources. Cause Im sorry im doubt the smurfs would try to win in a cage fight style war. Theyd lose 1 on 1.
I am only trying to state how superior they are. If a basic GK beats both a captain and a sgt, even when we are not counting in his superior wargear and psychic power, then you can imagine how it would go when he uses them. A justicar shot down by lasguns? I have never seen something like that, but sure, some may think that'd be possible.
GK ships are powerful as other SM ships- except that they are of superior craft, crew and weaponry, of course, but it seems you conside that irrelevant. Gk is also really subtle; if figting ultras they could easily blast apart ultramar before the massed successors could respond.
Remember that GK's are really pushed down in the rules. Gw wants you to buy a lot of them to play in high points matches.
GK do not need the inquisiton at all. If you doubt as to the power of Gk ships, I could get you some pictures that attest otherwise.....
If everyone both carries highly protective armor (to the point of artificier-level, to say the least) and carry stormbolters (and more than know how to use them) then firefights should be for from a trouble. And if BT would try to get close....
In fact, I just realised that comparing it to a fight of gretchin against stormtroopers is an apt one, don't you think?
I wouldn't say the raging, psker-hating, pschic power-resistant, chainsword-wielding and highly skilled hand-to-hand fighters of the BT would be as easily bested in close combat with GK as is being suggested. As for naval power, BT pack the more than GK, alongside IF and DA. In a space battle, BT beat GK hands down, and in planet-surface fighting, BT also win, because while they may be inferior to GK 1 on 1, they are more tactically versatile and have numbers on their side. As for Grimaldus, if a whole Imperial Cathedral collapsing on his head doesn't kill him, I don't think GK would be able to easily either. I think a better way of comparing GK and BT would be to compare Stormtroopers to IG infantry platoons led by priests. At the end of the day, how are GK going to manage, with their fleet driven off, without armoured support and nothing but shiny weapons and armour to save them from the BT charging at them on all sides, while Blessed Hull LRC's threaten to run them over.
Castiel wrote: My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ). And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes. Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them. I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.
If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ). Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.
Hate to jump on the Ultramarine bandwagon, but I would say that they are the most powerful chapter. Calgar is so influential that he can call upon every chapter that has their geneseed, and I think the number is even more than 600,000. They have a literal empire in the Segmentum Solar, and they probably have the largest fleet (ignoring the Space Wolves who have direct ties to House.... Belarious... something like that... or the Black Templars with their large Crusading Fleet). They are largely self sufficient with whole planets devoted to agriculture and manufacturing. And Tiberius... well I would think he could wipe the floor with the Grey Knights Psychics.
Of course... if the Ultramarines aren't allowed to call upon their successor chapters on a dime, then Black Templar would most likely win. Also remember please the Space Marine battle plans - they are not great for digging in and defending - Epic 40,000 had it right where they were specialised forces able to deep strike lightning quick into a battle, kil everything, and get out.
Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.
The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".
As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.
You seem to pick and choose examples and then when they dont fully support your opinion you jump to the next. Youre wanting to use reconned or black library stories that do not exist anymore and do little to distinguish the actual gk forces from the inquisition because they always are assumed working together. In reality with the new codexes edits to their history theyre more capable alone then they ever were using old fluff. But it doesnt matter in an actual war they will not win.
Just because in a staright fight a squad of gk woul beat a squad of smurfs doesnt mean a thing. Thats not how wars are fought. Prime example is the vietname war. US was larger AND stronger but still lost. Here the Smurfs ARE the larger force and better supplied to conduct a war. They also can fight in all phases which makes them more versatile. Sorry but we dont win wars today running at each other. Without gk getting help from the Inquisition gk have no supplier. You cant say mars because well they supply both sides. Smurfs just have more firepower and resources. Sorry but gk lose.
Someone's forgetting that the Grey Knights have their own Martian Forgemoon, huh?
The parts I pick are the only statements I vehemently disagree with and know not to be true using the sources I have at hand. I have no problem with you or anyone else claiming that chapter “x” could beat the Grey Knights as an offhand opinion but it's hard to sit back when people start perpetuating false information about them as though they're pedalling facts.
Furthermore, neither of the sources I have used above have been 'retconned'. The Imperialis Armageddon is one of the most detailed pieces of work we have regarding the First War on Armageddon and is still hosted freely by the official GW website. The other is from the most recent version of the codex itself, specifically pages 11 and 13. The phrases I've used have always specified that they are talking about Grey Knight forces and not otherwise. Some people may not give them a lot of credit but GW writer's do tend to make it very obvious when they're talking about Inquisitors and/or Grey Knights. Please check them out before making such crass and incorrect accusations.
As for the rest, it's hard to reply to such an argument because it is so incoherent and it lacks any concrete source citing. You do nothing to directly confront the specific issues raised by using your own sources. Instead you sidestep the point to make an irrelevant accusation. For example, all I was trying to do with my previous comment about the Grey Knight fleet was demonstrate they have the weapons capability - opposed to what you had previously wrote about them lacking weapons. But instead of just acknowledging that information or countering it with a better source that says the GK ships don't have weapons, you make a leaping assumption that I'm trying to also say the GK fleet could defeat the UM fleet. It seems very nonsensical and even flippant. If you really believe you can contest my evidence directly then back it up with a source rather than sidestepping the issue. Otherwise it all just amounts to blowing hot air.
I'd still say Templars beat the Grey Knights. Outnumbered at least 6 to 1, fighting a Chapter who is among the best in the Imperium when it comes to fleet combat (cf. Third War for Armageddon fluff) isn't a very good position to be in.
Russ Mandarin wrote:The Ultramarines always seem to float by on the fact that they have greater resources then XYZ but not skill? So essentiallly its just IG tactics for them now and forever
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No...the Ultramarines are no less "skilled" than any other chapter.
The Ultramarines have equivalent "man for man" capability (the average Ultramarine isn't going to be weaker than an average SM from chapter X) plus numbers (a tightly knit network of successors) plus resources (the realm of Ultramar)
Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.
The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".
As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.
You seem to pick and choose examples and then when they dont fully support your opinion you jump to the next. Youre wanting to use reconned or black library stories that do not exist anymore and do little to distinguish the actual gk forces from the inquisition because they always are assumed working together. In reality with the new codexes edits to their history theyre more capable alone then they ever were using old fluff. But it doesnt matter in an actual war they will not win.
Just because in a staright fight a squad of gk woul beat a squad of smurfs doesnt mean a thing. Thats not how wars are fought. Prime example is the vietname war. US was larger AND stronger but still lost. Here the Smurfs ARE the larger force and better supplied to conduct a war. They also can fight in all phases which makes them more versatile. Sorry but we dont win wars today running at each other. Without gk getting help from the Inquisition gk have no supplier. You cant say mars because well they supply both sides. Smurfs just have more firepower and resources. Sorry but gk lose.
Someone's forgetting that the Grey Knights have their own Martian Forgemoon, huh?
The parts I pick are the only statements I vehemently disagree with and know not to be true using the sources I have at hand. I have no problem with you or anyone else claiming that chapter “x” could beat the Grey Knights as an offhand opinion but it's hard to sit back when people start perpetuating false information about them as though they're pedalling facts.
Furthermore, neither of the sources I have used above have been 'retconned'. The Imperialis Armageddon is one of the most detailed pieces of work we have regarding the First War on Armageddon and is still hosted freely by the official GW website. The other is from the most recent version of the codex itself, specifically pages 11 and 13. The phrases I've used have always specified that they are talking about Grey Knight forces and not otherwise. Some people may not give them a lot of credit but GW writer's do tend to make it very obvious when they're talking about Inquisitors and/or Grey Knights. Please check them out before making such crass and incorrect accusations.
As for the rest, it's hard to reply to such an argument because it is so incoherent and it lacks any concrete source citing. You do nothing to directly confront the specific issues raised by using your own sources. Instead you sidestep the point to make an irrelevant accusation. For example, all I was trying to do with my previous comment about the Grey Knight fleet was demonstrate they have the weapons capability - opposed to what you had previously wrote about them lacking weapons. But instead of just acknowledging that information or countering it with a better source that says the GK ships don't have weapons, you make a leaping assumption that I'm trying to also say the GK fleet could defeat the UM fleet. It seems very nonsensical and even flippant. If you really believe you can contest my evidence directly then back it up with a source rather than sidestepping the issue. Otherwise it all just amounts to blowing hot air.
I mentioned mars are did you not read that? My statements were not incoherent or flippant. Nor did I side step I used the facts of ACTUAL warfare and what is needed to win. Without fluff armor and Inquisition gk cannot win. The other chapters have beaten large sm groups in the hh and groups like sw have beaten large well armed psyker sm groups. gk have no leg to stand on without the inquisition. As far counters to your pts I stated where there was information about that but apparently you didnt read that either. In a following post a person tried to use killing ground as a basisi of a gk vicotry but didnt take into account the gk's own omnibus where they lose to cultists and the like. In those novels it states the gk ships are not combat ships and needed 2 hereticus ships to fight the chaos ships. So no I think you need to read more carefully.
Draigo wrote: The other chapters have beaten large sm groups in the hh and groups like sw have beaten large well armed psyker sm groups.
I assume you're referring to the Burning of Prospero.
You have to remember that the circumstances surrounding that conflict were extraordinary:
1) The SW had support from the Sisters of Silence (crucial against the psychic powers of the TS) and Constantin Valdor and his elite custodes
2) Magnus backstabbed his own legion, allowing the TS to be completely caught off guard
3) The SW had their primarch on the battlefield
4) The SW vastly outnumbered the TS BT (one of the largest chapters) vs. GK would be something like 3,000 vs. 1,000 (assuming the GK are limited to 1,000)
SW vs. TS was 100,000 (average HH legion) vs. 10,000 (one of the smallest, if not the smallest, HH legions). The SW might have had more than 100,000 as the legion was considered quite large before the invasion of Prospero
5) SW still took heavy casualties
My point is that the SW won against powerful psychic Astartes mainly becausethe odds were heavily stacked in the SW's favour.
In a hypothetical GK vs. SM conflict, I'm assuming that
1) SM won't have Sisters of Silence
2) the GK Grand Masters won't be purposefully trying to prevent the GK from fighting effectively
3) the greatest heroes of both sides will be present (unlike when Russ slaughtered TS left and right while Magnus sulked in his chamber)
4) the SM advantage in numbers is going to be at most 3:1
If you're referring to the Battle of the Fang, you have to remember that
1) the Fang was one of the most formidable, hardest to crack fortresses in the Imperium
2) most of the TS invasion force was composed of Rubric marines (vastly inferior to pre-Heresy TS and GK)
Draigo wrote:They only said theyre fast. They had little to no firepower. The only other ship present were not malleus ships. GK do not have recon or any of the actual parts needed for war. They bee bop in and kill daemon threats not conduct warfare. Even when they faced down Angron it was under the order of logan. GK while powerful are not capable without the Inquisition to face the larger forces of the um. The only surivior of the omnimubus was fluff armored alric. So I dont buy it. The "best" fighters they have can't be around anyone(Crowe) and their leader Draigo is marching around the warp.
The section regarding the Grey Knight's fleet at Broadsword station refers to them as warships. It may not mention their firepower capabilities but that's no reason to assume they don't have any. Only a couple of pages later, in the Deeds of Legend section does the codex describe how scores of Imperial Guard, Navy and Adeptus Mechanicius ships were "intercepted and destroyed by Grey Knight strike cruisers".
As for the First War of Armageddon, Logan Grimnar requested their help like anyone else would have to do. While Grimnar was in charge of the campaign overall he was never in specific control of the brotherhood sent to assist. That was Brother-Captain Aurellian's duty. While Lorgar could (and did) voice his concerns over the Brotherhood's level of involvement, he could never rush them into action and Aurellian was more than happy to stand his ground over ideas he considered overly-hasty. The story can be found here.
You seem to pick and choose examples and then when they dont fully support your opinion you jump to the next. Youre wanting to use reconned or black library stories that do not exist anymore and do little to distinguish the actual gk forces from the inquisition because they always are assumed working together. In reality with the new codexes edits to their history theyre more capable alone then they ever were using old fluff. But it doesnt matter in an actual war they will not win.
Just because in a staright fight a squad of gk woul beat a squad of smurfs doesnt mean a thing. Thats not how wars are fought. Prime example is the vietname war. US was larger AND stronger but still lost. Here the Smurfs ARE the larger force and better supplied to conduct a war. They also can fight in all phases which makes them more versatile. Sorry but we dont win wars today running at each other. Without gk getting help from the Inquisition gk have no supplier. You cant say mars because well they supply both sides. Smurfs just have more firepower and resources. Sorry but gk lose.
Someone's forgetting that the Grey Knights have their own Martian Forgemoon, huh?
The parts I pick are the only statements I vehemently disagree with and know not to be true using the sources I have at hand. I have no problem with you or anyone else claiming that chapter “x” could beat the Grey Knights as an offhand opinion but it's hard to sit back when people start perpetuating false information about them as though they're pedalling facts.
Furthermore, neither of the sources I have used above have been 'retconned'. The Imperialis Armageddon is one of the most detailed pieces of work we have regarding the First War on Armageddon and is still hosted freely by the official GW website. The other is from the most recent version of the codex itself, specifically pages 11 and 13. The phrases I've used have always specified that they are talking about Grey Knight forces and not otherwise. Some people may not give them a lot of credit but GW writer's do tend to make it very obvious when they're talking about Inquisitors and/or Grey Knights. Please check them out before making such crass and incorrect accusations.
As for the rest, it's hard to reply to such an argument because it is so incoherent and it lacks any concrete source citing. You do nothing to directly confront the specific issues raised by using your own sources. Instead you sidestep the point to make an irrelevant accusation. For example, all I was trying to do with my previous comment about the Grey Knight fleet was demonstrate they have the weapons capability - opposed to what you had previously wrote about them lacking weapons. But instead of just acknowledging that information or countering it with a better source that says the GK ships don't have weapons, you make a leaping assumption that I'm trying to also say the GK fleet could defeat the UM fleet. It seems very nonsensical and even flippant. If you really believe you can contest my evidence directly then back it up with a source rather than sidestepping the issue. Otherwise it all just amounts to blowing hot air.
I mentioned mars are did you not read that? My statements were not incoherent or flippant. Nor did I side step I used the facts of ACTUAL warfare and what is needed to win. Without fluff armor and Inquisition gk cannot win. The other chapters have beaten large sm groups in the hh and groups like sw have beaten large well armed psyker sm groups. gk have no leg to stand on without the inquisition. As far counters to your pts I stated where there was information about that but apparently you didnt read that either. In a following post a person tried to use killing ground as a basisi of a gk vicotry but didnt take into account the gk's own omnibus where they lose to cultists and the like. In those novels it states the gk ships are not combat ships and needed 2 hereticus ships to fight the chaos ships. So no I think you need to read more carefully.
Sorry for quotepyramiding.
Your spelling makes it hard for me, and i apologise if i write something wrong now due to misunderstanding you. Anyway, instead of repeating your opinions, would you kindly answer to the (well put) points that greyish put? Such as they having their own forgemoon. (which you answer with silence) Read his posts, and answer carefully to each one. And try to spell correctly; if you are trying to make people think as you do, spelling correctly helps.
Well most grey knights while psykers do not have any offensive powers. Only the paladins and purifers do as per the new codex discluding speacial characters and librarians as per codex. If you include bl they also stated offensive powers were rare as only one guy in the omnimbus could use them so comparing them to ts isnt all that off.
Also to make it a fair comparison youd have to include resources leach army can use. Otherwise the gk would lose to just attrition. Hands down gk win in cc but thats not the only part of the war because in other phases the other chapters have the edge unless of course you add the inquisition in. Because UM vs GK/Inquisition. The GK will wreck face because theyre more rounded.
GK alone are smaller then the UM who can call on there secondary chapters so to make it fair you need to involved the Inquisition or you will have a Prospero all over. Thats what my stance was from the get go. GK alone do not have enough numbers and supplies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @brotherharaldus
Your using unofficial? Seriously? That does't help at all.
He said foregmoon of mars which when adressing another poster I stated everyone gets stuff from mars. It'd be very easy to surround that with a fleet and cut of the smaller grey knight forces.
Itd be like stating the navy seals can beat the entire US army. Seals are considered to have better gear and training but alone they do not have the resources to fight the entire army, They would have to resort to guerilla warfare.
Grey knights cannot fight larger forces like that alone. They're entire force is shock troops.
Except that the difference between Gk and standard SM is quite a bit larger than the one between Us army and seals.
GK specailises in striking quickly, they could use their vastly superior troops, training and wargear to quickly eliminate the enemy command structure and elite troops. Then, in the confusion, they could easily seize victory.
Your using unofficial? Seriously? That does't help at all.
So you are trying to say this guy made it purposefully different as to how GW would do it? Hardly.
Draigo wrote:I mentioned mars are did you not read that? My statements were not incoherent or flippant. Nor did I side step I used the facts of ACTUAL warfare and what is needed to win. Without fluff armor and Inquisition gk cannot win. The other chapters have beaten large sm groups in the hh and groups like sw have beaten large well armed psyker sm groups. gk have no leg to stand on without the inquisition. As far counters to your pts I stated where there was information about that but apparently you didnt read that either. In a following post a person tried to use killing ground as a basisi of a gk vicotry but didnt take into account the gk's own omnibus where they lose to cultists and the like. In those novels it states the gk ships are not combat ships and needed 2 hereticus ships to fight the chaos ships. So no I think you need to read more carefully.
Lol, right. Perhaps you are being serious. But coherent? Then how do lines along the sentiment of, “yes but the US lost to Vietnam. But the US is larger and stronger. so are the UMs so they won't lose” have anything to do with just 'acknowledging the existence of Grey Knight warships'. I didn't ask/say if the GKs could beat the SMs at all. It's like speaking to a bizarre spin-doctor - dodging the original point to such a degree that it's no longer relevant and rambling on about how great his party is while the rest of us have fallen asleep. Now after all that delaying you mention the GK omnibus and I could have finally given you kudos for mentioning Ben Counter's novels (still no quote or pg number though) but I wouldn't bother because I have a bigger issue with this being raised now. Normally I'm a fan of 40k as loose canon but remember your post “2012/02/12 20:37:30” with your “dex trumps books as far as cannon” remark? Oh dear. So in your own words, we can either assume that my statements that come from the codex trump your BL book source or would you prefer accusations of hypocrisy and double standards too? No? At the very least we can say that the conflict of info from those BL books has now been 'retconned'.
On to Mars and a quick simple one. Subtle difference here; Mars and Deimos aren't the same thing. While Deimos is a satellite of Martian origin and carries on with their Mechanicus traditions, it now orbits Titan/Saturn with the main aim of supplying the GKs. But let me guess, they don't get to count either because the Russians are still all commies at heart, or some twaddle.
What was next. Oh the cultists from the GK omnibus and the Killing Ground novel, etc. So we can safely assume that Cultist>GK>UM. Is that it? It's funny how you're willing to throw the whole fluff armour defence up at any GK victory but as soon as it's mentioned in a book that a sororitas or a cultist beat a GK it's a demonstration of how "really weak" the GKs are. Yet again, nice double standards there...
Actually I brought up the other books because I dont think bl is all that reliable. Though interesting how you pick and choose again from posts made to other posters. He wanted to use all bl without bringing up the omnibus. His arguement was just based on bl so I used solely black library.
I dont still have the book so how exactly can I use pg numbers? Buy the book just for this? Um no.
Black Templars all the way. Ultramarines are very strict on the codex rules only ever 1000 strong, while Black templars are over 6000 strong!. If they are ever able to meet in 1 place they could wipe out some of the other races even start a new civil war. The Inq's knows about the black templars disregard for the rules, but cannot confirm their numbers nor have they made their move on them as they have been loyal servants to the emporer for 10.000 years without a hint of corruption.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh Black templars can allso count on aid from Imperial Fist, Grimson Fist and Hammer of Dorn chapters?????
And the lord high marshal Is a master at fleet battles. Armageddon anyone? biggest ork fleet ever recorded and they got beaten back.
Castiel wrote:
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ).
And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes.
Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them.
I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.
If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ).
Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.
Well I still can't believe that because if that were true then why did the ultramarines not have 600,000 marines defending ultramar against tyranids so... Can't believe it, so I still have to stay with my beloved Templars and say they are the strongest it even says in fluff they have the most marines, and that means largest fleet by FAR and therein lies the most assets as well so Templars are the most SINGLE strongest chapter.
Castiel wrote:
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ).
And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes.
Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them.
I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.
If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ).
Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.
Well I still can't believe that because if that were true then why did the ultramarines not have 600,000 marines defending ultramar against tyranids so... Can't believe it, so I still have to stay with my beloved Templars and say they are the strongest it even says in fluff they have the most marines, and that means largest fleet by FAR and therein lies the most assets as well so Templars are the most SINGLE strongest chapter.
Because they did not have time to arrive? It takes a while to gather 600 000 marines. They might have been busy on their own fronts as well.
I maintain that GK would win; not only do they have armor that can withstand orbital bombardments (good luck piercing that with bolters); but sure, grimaldus is awesome, and he might have the combination of luck and stubbornness to survive a building collapsing while he is in it, but there is limits. You can survive if you are buried in rock (if you have power armour), but you can not survive having your head vaporised.
You can think what you want (at least some say so) but GK completely outclasses all other SM in every way.
Oh, and Draigo? In the GKWD the GK is described as having Strike cruisers (At least the strike force described had it, and I doubt the others lack it) and if the quality of those can match the rest of their equipment... you can figure the rest yourself.
Oh, and in the Killing Ground novel (the only novel I've read so far which describes GK) a Grey Knight named Leodogarius says during a test that no loyalist can kill a Grey Knight, only Chaos or those afflicted with it can. So, if you say BT can beat GK you say that BT is corrupted.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Your spelling makes it hard for me, and i apologise if i write something wrong now due to misunderstanding you. Anyway, instead of repeating your opinions, would you kindly answer to the (well put) points that greyish put? Such as they having their own forgemoon. (which you answer with silence) Read his posts, and answer carefully to each one. And try to spell correctly; if you are trying to make people think as you do, spelling correctly helps.
Ha! Low blow, insulting his spelling THREE times in a small paragraph! I think we gathered he spelt something wrong, no need to say it repeatedly
Castiel wrote:
My ration is right: 666 Grey Knights vs 6000ish Black Templars. That's about 10:1 wouldn't you say?
And if you take of the fanboy specs then you';ll realise that the Grey Knights are not equal to 10 other Space Marines. The sheer volume of firepower and numbers in combat would drag them down.
Uh..... there are 1000 Grey Knights ( GK Codex page 7 ).
And if a squad of Terminator Grey Knights survived orbital bombardment directly on them then they woudl have no problem in slaying hundreds of Astartes.
Grey Knights also have better equipment, better training and are all psykers. Plus they have demigods liek Draigo and Stern to lead them.
I am not a GK fan boy, I am Imperial fan boy. And I can say for sure that no Space Marine Chapter can stand against Grey Knights 1 on 1.
If we are talking about numbers then Ultramarines win big time, Space Marine codex say that on Calgars call every Chapter that have it's geneseed from Ultramarines will come to assist. And according to old info that is around 3/5 of existing Chapters ( 600.000 Space Marines ).
Go luck fighting Ultramrines and all their decedents.
Well I still can't believe that because if that were true then why did the ultramarines not have 600,000 marines defending ultramar against tyranids so... Can't believe it, so I still have to stay with my beloved Templars and say they are the strongest it even says in fluff they have the most marines, and that means largest fleet by FAR and therein lies the most assets as well so Templars are the most SINGLE strongest chapter.
Because they did not have time to arrive? It takes a while to gather 600 000 marines. They might have been busy on their own fronts as well.
I maintain that GK would win; not only do they have armor that can withstand orbital bombardments (good luck piercing that with bolters); but sure, grimaldus is awesome, and he might have the combination of luck and stubbornness to survive a building collapsing while he is in it, but there is limits. You can survive if you are buried in rock (if you have power armour), but you can not survive having your head vaporised.
You can think what you want (at least some say so) but GK completely outclasses all other SM in every way.
Oh, and Draigo? In the GKWD the GK is described as having Strike cruisers (At least the strike force described had it, and I doubt the others lack it) and if the quality of those can match the rest of their equipment... you can figure the rest yourself.
Oh, and in the Killing Ground novel (the only novel I've read so far which describes GK) a Grey Knight named Leodogarius says during a test that no loyalist can kill a Grey Knight, only Chaos or those afflicted with it can. So, if you say BT can beat GK you say that BT is corrupted.
Well pick your source and quit jumping between bl and codex. If you use bl then you can't use the codex since it retconned GK as the Malleus only chamber millitant. You keep bouncing around looking for that one pt to try to win. It looks more like desperate grabbing for straws. He said no loyalist can kill a gk? Then ask him why the hell is he fighting a loyalist? Last I checked he only fights corrupted so quit drinking the cool aide. As to the dumb statement they're armor survived orbit drop then ask alric why he was dropped by las pistols.
You seriously need to read more and quit posting one piece and then when it's defuncted run off to find another 1 point. 3 ben counter gk books trumps 1 smurf book. The gk got beat up by everyone in their own book. You know why? Cause they were outnumbered. Plus didnt help they had pretty inept fleet and got beat down by 1 black legion cruiser. Now onto the wd, it said they had a cruiser not an inquisition one? Did it say why they had a large ship?
They outclass them in every single way imaginable: equipment, training, plot-armour... But as the Germans found out during Operation Barborossa, they don't exactly help when your squad of 10 men come up against a squad of 50. The German tanks were better, their planes were better, their weapons were better (hell, only 1 in 3 Russian troops were ever given a rifle!)... But for every Panzer, there were 5 T-34s, for every ME109 there were 10 Yak-7b's, and for every Wermacht soldier, there were 20 Soviet conscripts (don't quote me on the figures.) In the words of Stalin: "Quantity has a quality of it's own."
A GK, despite all their gear, couldn't battle 3 SM at once. He can't be in 2 places at the same time... So as he stabs one SM and shoots another, the third is behind him and kills him. Chapter vs Chapter, the BT win due to sheer weight of numbers. If you include successors then it's the Smurfs. One on one it's the GK.
SW where created to take out other chapters. That's why Magnus couldn't let them fix the Canis Helix or they would spread through space with their successors. To many predators, not enough prey.
Technically if you count successors, and assets, IF would be a big one because then you have the Templar who have the largest fleet by far, and largest single chapter numbers. Then Crimson fists and all their combined successors and other IF successors plus the defence grid from terra BC the fists run terra so IF really got that ace up their sleve especially because the sons of dorn have the best brotherhood between chapters, and not like DA or Ultramarines where they command the respect of their successors.
This whole thread is just people ignoring anything they don't want to hear and plugging away with whatever points validate their own position... feels like Warseer in here.
Lobukia wrote:This whole thread is just people ignoring anything they don't want to hear and plugging away with whatever points validate their own position... feels like Warseer in here.
LOL What an amazing revelation. The main issue is there were no actual boundries set for the discussion. So it's very easy to pick the one nugget of info you want to cling to. The fact that some of pulling from the unreliable bl, 2nd-5th ed codexes, and whatever silly fan fic they can find. lol
The case could be made that it is the Minotaurs chapter that is most powerful.
They are the hatchet men of the High Lords of Terra, they get all the latest stuff en mass ie tons of mark 8 armor and rare versions of vehicles, and have abnormally high recruitment assets so they replace losses in manpower very fast.
I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hands right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.
Page 27:
To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.
With this stated, i think the dispute is over.
One Space Marine can easily beat six guardsmen. BT vs GK? same thing.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hnads right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.
Page 27:
To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.
With this stated, i think the dispute is over.
One Space Marine can easily beat six guardsmen. BT vs GK? same thing.
The discussion is over.
I seriously don't think you read other peoples point at all. You are just covering your eyes and ears while yelling "nuh uh gk are the best!." lol The point of them being superior in a one on one fight was never disputed. Them fighting in a war which they seldom do and never have done alone is what has been dsiputed vs other chapters who out number and better at conducting open war. You keep wanting to ignore that factor.
I will try to ignore your blatant insults. However, I would advise you to read my post before insulting me. First, i did not state that Gk are superior one-on-one. I stated that they are superior one-on-six. They are also fully capable of fighting a war, having tanks, dreadnoughts, strike cruisers (and thus logically battle barges) and so on.
I have not covered my ears and eyes, I have read every post and carefully weighed each one. But just because i do not think like you do not mean i am stupid.
I have never yelled "nuh uh gk are the best!."
I have made a number of serious points, backing each up with quotes and/or sources.
I do not ignore the factor that you see GK as incapable of fighting out a war.
Fight wars alone? Want examples? The Assault on Beroghast, the Cauldron of Biletide, the Bray-Nexus... (and yes, they are official, no "that does not help at all" please.)
Outnumbering does not mean they win. "Better at conducting open war?" Hardly. Want examples there too?
See new codex is better then killing ground hence also why I stated using it was better then using bl stuff back on page one. lol
Since they have dreadnaughts, strike cruisers they must have battle barges? Why? Because you want them to?
Your serious points were from one bl book till this last postwhere you actually used the codex like I said back on page 1.
So till you actually use current examples you did sound like just a fan boy spouting so if your insulted then step up examples like in your previous post.
Because battle barges are for battlefield purposes a larger version of strike cruisers, and other chapters have both, then surely Gk have has well, don't you think?
I do not see why BL is invalid; other than the fact that books might vary in opinion of course.
I never said it was better. I only used it in the hope that you would stop the insulting and actually read what i am trying to tell you.
I am not a fanboy. I play CSM. I only state facts.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Because battle barges are for battlefield purposes a larger version of strike cruisers, and other chapters have both, then surely Gk have has well, don't you think?
I do not see why BL is invalid; other than the fact that books might vary in opinion of course.
I never said it was better. I only used it in the hope that you would stop the insulting and actually read what i am trying to tell you.
I am not a fanboy. I play CSM. I only state facts.
Reason bl is a poor source is because in say killing ground one gk trounced 2 ultramarines and makes dumb bravo statement. In their own omnimbus justicars terminators etc are being beat up by guys on horseback and laspistols. lol Plus the part of psy powers varies greatly and with the new codex retcons who can use powers and what they have. Pallys purifiers etc are all new and didnt exist prior to the new book plus the powers were handled different. The new codex makes them more of a stand alone force where as prior they were just a small strike force.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hands right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.
Page 27:
To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.
With this stated, i think the dispute is over.
One Space Marine can easily beat six guardsmen. BT vs GK? same thing.
The discussion is over.
Black Templars Codex, page 8:
The Black Templars chose not to adhere to the Codex Astartes and, following the oath of Sigismund, the Chapter embarked upon its Crusade, eschewing the idea of a homeworld and living aboard their Crusade fleets, made up of dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers and other craft such as training vessles and gigantic forge ships.
Your individual superiority matters little to the fleets of the Black Templars.
Again, page 8:
Only the High Marshal of the Chapter has any idea how many Black Templars Space Marines there are, but it is obvious that they are far more numerous than most conventional Chapters, although dispersed over a much wider area. If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total, a force that would be all but unstoppable if ever gathered in a single place.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hands right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.
Page 27:
To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.
With this stated, i think the dispute is over.
One Space Marine can easily beat six guardsmen. BT vs GK? same thing.
The discussion is over.
Black Templars Codex, page 8:
The Black Templars chose not to adhere to the Codex Astartes and, following the oath of Sigismund, the Chapter embarked upon its Crusade, eschewing the idea of a homeworld and living aboard their Crusade fleets, made up of dozens of battle barges, strike cruisers and other craft such as training vessles and gigantic forge ships.
Your individual superiority matters little to the fleets of the Black Templars.
Again, page 8:
Only the High Marshal of the Chapter has any idea how many Black Templars Space Marines there are, but it is obvious that they are far more numerous than most conventional Chapters, although dispersed over a much wider area. If certain accounts are to be believed, they could even be as strong as five thousand to six thousand battle brethren in total, a force that would be all but unstoppable if ever gathered in a single place.
^This. Going on Marine-vs-Marine basis, then sure, the GK are bosses (although, it is also worth noting that they are highly specialised for fighting the warp and its denizens, and as such having these strengths may come with a pay-off of limitations that other Chapters don't share). However, the topic is clearly about whole Chapters, and therefore they must be considered on Chapter-vs-Chapter basis. Again, on the other hand, this is still quite vague, and there are many factors and variables that play into it. For instance, there is little mention in the topic of the IF (compared to some other Chapters), yet, it may well be that they could take the title on the possibiliy that - in light of their particular forte and position in the galaxy - they may be able to simple weather any assault and win by being the last Marine standing, so to speak.
Another thing to consider is that, just as each player may be biased towards their favoured Chapter, so too will their respective dexes, as highlighted by the post above and the earlier GK one. Of course they will seek to big up and proclaim whichever Chapter it belongs to as uber-doober bad boys (even by SM standards). What better way to vindicate the person who has decided to play/collect them? I've not read them, but I'm sure there are similar quotes to be found about the GW, BA, DA, Ultras, etc . . .
If you guys want to talk about owed loyalties and bonds the easy answer is the Black Templars. The first Emperor's Champion defended Terra and turned back the enemy at the gates of the Imperail Palace. Every single chapter owes their survival and the Survivial of the Imperium to the actions of the Emperor's Champion and the first companty of the imperial Fist.
There are over 6,000 black templars along with thier successors like the red templars and others. They would also have the loyalty of thousands of plantes where they liberated or maintain chapter keeps. So with that they have their own massive emprie covering most of imperial space.
It says in the BT Codex that if the entierty of the BT chapter was assembled in one place it would be unstopable.
IF you look at the smurfs allot of those chapters owe loyalty to the BT for saving them when they are on the verge of distruction.
Black Templars
-Have thousands of planets under their control and hundreds of chapter keeps
-Largest fleet period
-More land raiders than any other chapter
-Built for CCW where other space marine chapters will be outclassed
-thousands of Neophites (normal space marine scouts with more training)
-Ability to fight psycars because of incredible belief in the emperor that is only rivaled by the Grey Knights
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sigismund is still not dead, he is a freaking super soldier from the dawn of the empire. If he still lives and fights his chapter will never be bested. Without him no other chapter would exist today.
did he ask what chaper was most influential? nope
the most powerfull chapter must be space wolves, they have executed a total of 3 founder (the first 20) chapters, they have also had a squad in the EOT since the horus heresy chasing down a primarch. grey knights are powefull i will give you that, but i bet you they couldent do that, they would either be killed or eventually corrupted, the space wolf so called "defect" that makes them resistant to the taint of chaos is how they have stayed loyal to the emperor. as for the total fighting ability of the grey knights in general, they specialise in demons, put anything else in front of them and they would probably be average. cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons. hence the reason the DKOK often have commisars attached to there squads to curb there zeal, yup, commisars reducing zeal O.o.
as for calgar speed dialing succesors, thats not the power of a single chapter is it? anyway, even if it was rowboat girlyman asking for help, when he mentions that they have killed 3 founding chapters, he's just gonna get given the middle finger...
Actually I was advocating for non gk but I much prefer gk and one of the strongest proponents for gk was a csm player so not sure if your favorite comment applies. lol
Nazgren wrote:did he ask what chaper was most influential? nope
the most powerfull chapter must be space wolves, they have executed a total of 3 founder (the first 20) chapters, they have also had a squad in the EOT since the horus heresy chasing down a primarch. grey knights are powefull i will give you that, but i bet you they couldent do that, they would either be killed or eventually corrupted, the space wolf so called "defect" that makes them resistant to the taint of chaos is how they have stayed loyal to the emperor. as for the total fighting ability of the grey knights in general, they specialise in demons, put anything else in front of them and they would probably be average. cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons. hence the reason the DKOK often have commisars attached to there squads to curb there zeal, yup, commisars reducing zeal O.o.
as for calgar speed dialing succesors, thats not the power of a single chapter is it? anyway, even if it was rowboat girlyman asking for help, when he mentions that they have killed 3 founding chapters, he's just gonna get given the middle finger...
Powerful is spelled with one L.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:I am holding Codex: Grey Knights in my hands right now, so i think it is time to clear out some misunderstandings.
Codex: Grey Knights Page 27:
To pursue the endless war against the Daemons of Chaos takes more than a mere Space Marine. It takes a Grey Knight- an altogether more difficile warrior, who is as far above other Space Marines as the Space Marines are above common humanity.
Which answers your statement about "average" pretty well, doesn't it?
UNREALPwnage wrote:If you guys want to talk about owed loyalties and bonds the easy answer is the Black Templars.
IF you look at the smurfs allot of those chapters owe loyalty to the BT for saving them when they are on the verge of distruction.
While I agree that the Imperial Fist Legion was fundamental to Terra's stand against Horus' invasion, and that Sigismund was a total boss for the part he played, I feel it's going a little too far to claim that the survival of the entire Astartes was down to the BT (I mean, they didn't even exist quite yet). All the loyal Legions played their part. The Ultramarines weren't there properly for the big throw down, so for all we know their contribution could have rivaled or even surpassed that of the IF. Also, we must consider the aftermath: Dorn was dead set against Guilliman's Codex proposal, another rift was forming that well could have turned into another civil war. Guilliman's blueprint for the Astartes prevailied in the end, though, and it's him and his Codex that is responsible for the Astartes as they are now. For this reason, I would argue that most, if not all, Codex Chapters would pledge their loyalty to him and the Ultramarines above the firebrand Templars, and claim that the survival of the Space Marines is down to Guilliman.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nazgren wrote:cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons.
Yeah, it's a worthy point to make, as it's deffinately a double-edged sword. I'd say at least some of the BT's numerical advantage would be cancelled out by all their Furious Charges . . .
I'm just going to reiterate how the BT if called to one place would have the largest fleet the imperium would see, under the command of the best naval commander in all the imperim. So if anyone can come up with something that could beat that (and please have it be something that is under direct control of that chapter, not some crap about calling for successors or the fact that there is what 1500 to 2k sw, well let's see there's 6k BT) so someone please come up with real rebuttal, that could counter that, that is directly under the control of the chapter you would like to talk about.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Which answers your statement about "average" pretty well, doesn't it?
Well, yes and no. You still need to factor in the point I raised before about the price you pay for specialising. I certainly wouldn't say the GK are average in any situation, but, as I've been trying to explain: it isn't as simple as that, and also the point about being Chapter-based, not individual Marine-based.
UNREALPwnage wrote:If you guys want to talk about owed loyalties and bonds the easy answer is the Black Templars.
IF you look at the smurfs allot of those chapters owe loyalty to the BT for saving them when they are on the verge of distruction.
While I agree that the Imperial Fist Legion was fundamental to Terra's stand against Horus' invasion, and that Sigismund was a total boss for the part he played, I feel it's going a little too far to claim that the survival of the entire Astartes was down to the BT (I mean, they didn't even exist quite yet). All the loyal Legions played their part. The Ultramarines weren't there properly for the big throw down, so for all we know their contribution could have rivaled or even surpassed that of the IF. Also, we must consider the aftermath: Dorn was dead set against Guilliman's Codex proposal, another rift was forming that well could have turned into another civil war. Guilliman's blueprint for the Astartes prevailied in the end, though, and it's him and his Codex that is responsible for the Astartes as they are now. For this reason, I would argue that most, if not all, Codex Chapters would pledge their loyalty to him and the Ultramarines above the firebrand Templars, and claim that the survival of the Space Marines is down to Guilliman.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nazgren wrote:cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons.
Yeah, it's a worthy point to make, as it's deffinately a double-edged sword. I'd say at least some of the BT's numerical advantage would be cancelled out by all their Furious Charges . . .
At this point people are going to start throwing primarchs and founders names out there, because if i really wanted to say something like that i could say well Sigisimund is still alive and if he were to make his pressence shown then all other chapters would listen seeing as he was in charge waaay back in the day, but then someone else would say well the Girlyman would step out he would be boss, then someone would say RUSS has come back from the warp, oh here we go, The LION returns, so lets all just hold hands stand togather stop thinking that we have to worry about the toughest SM chapter and say the Loyalists are stronger then the Traitors.
Greyish wrote:To OP: Not all SM Chapters are all the same. it depends on what kind of specific power you're talking about. Here's what I believe though:
Most populous single chapter: Black Templars
Most powerful chapter per marine: Grey Knights
Most influential chapter: Ultramarines
Black Templars are easily the best. Best fleet? Yes. Most marines? Yes. Most connections? Yes (this is important, just because they can't summon as many other marine chapters to their aid doesn't stop them being more powerful in this aspect. They have keeps all over the galaxy, whereas the Ultras only are around in the east. They've helped so many more people than them and conquered more galaxy. Ultras pale in comparison.). To add to this they're close combat masters (the GK aren't so much better fighters, they're just psychicly able and are selected for this. They may have better equipment but there's more BT so this is nullified) and just berserk, although this doesn't prevent them carrying out their missions effectively, it only makes them more powerful. Unlike Kriegers, they individually have a greater grasp of tactics, so when they need to fight they''l fight hard, but they also can hold back.
It's the Ultramarines, by a large margin. Their own fleet is impressive, but on top of that, they have the huge fleet operated by the Navy of Ultramar. In addition to their own numbers, they then have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Imperial Guard quality PDF troopers to call on. The Ultramarines would be, without question, the most comfortable with combined arms actions with Imperial Navy and Guard forces, and have the ability to summon their own supporting elements in the event that official Imperial elements aren't available.
As far as the amusing post above me goes... Wow. That would have only been more adorable if it had been written in the first person.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anfauglir wrote:
Nazgren wrote:cant really say anything about the templars as i dont really know much about them, apparently they are the second most zealous chapter, but too much zeal is never a good thing, it often results in just getting themselves killed for pointless reasons.
Yeah, it's a worthy point to make, as it's deffinately a double-edged sword. I'd say at least some of the BT's numerical advantage would be cancelled out by all their Furious Charges . . .
There's a reason the Templars are so large, and recruit so aggressively. They fight like Doritos. "Crunch all you want, we'll make more." Their casualties must be horrendous in most battles.
I'm just saying, BT have a fleet that severely outclasses and outnumbers that of the Ultras, as well as arguably the best naval commander the IoM has in command of this. The Templars have 6000 marines at least, and there are probably more. So in a chapter on chapter fight, the Ultras are out numbered and outgunned on land and in space. One could argue that Templars are also more experienced fighters, quite simply because they go looking for fights with everyone and so are just plain adept at killing, whereas the Ultras own experience is limited to fighting Tau and Nids. It's not like BT are running at them wearing chainmail either, they're astartes and so are well equipped, trained and are still capable of making sound tactical decisions, with the advantage of naturally following them with greater Zeal. So in a one on one between BT and Ultra, a BT would have slight disadvantage. So supposing statistically to fight the actual Ultramarines chapter they used 1000 marines, that still leaves 5000 marines (at least!) to fight the Ultramar Empire's forces. Essentially, to fight the BT is to fight six chapters, not just one, and so the Ultras will loose.
And Veteran Sergeant, you needn't be so patronising. I was only putting forward my opinion and it wasn't exactly a troll or without thought.
Banzaimash wrote:I'm just saying, BT have a fleet that severely outclasses and outnumbers that of the Ultras, as well as arguably the best naval commander the IoM has in command of this. The Templars have 6000 marines at least, and there are probably more. So in a chapter on chapter fight, the Ultras are out numbered and outgunned on land and in space.
Heh. Except the that's silly, and not what the thread was asking. A battle between the Ultramarines and Black Templars wouldn't be a giant Shootout at the OK Corral where everyone lines up and keeps firing until one side runs out of guys. The Ultramarines can bring to bear a vast fleet of Ultramar Navy, and Guard. The Templars have 6000 Marines of varying quality (Neophytes are a far larger percentage of the total numbers than are typically used on the meta-game table top. Thus the Black Templars' numbers are significantly larger, but so is their percentage composition of Scout quality Marines and without having the tactical advantages of traditional scout teams) and a large fleet. The Ultramarines have 1000 Marines, hundreds of thousands of guardsmen, and a massive combined fleet. This is a chapter that stopped an entire Tyranid Hive Fleet and survived.
One could argue that Templars are also more experienced fighters
Heh.
Essentially, to fight the BT is to fight six chapters, not just one, and so the Ultras will loose.
Heh.
And Veteran Sergeant, you needn't be so patronising. I was only putting forward my opinion and it wasn't exactly a troll or without thought.
It's hard to fault me for being amused. I didn't type that nonsense. I only enjoyed it.
this is just a bunch of puppies ranting about how theirs is strongest, what it all boils down to, is who has the biggest (insert here) we shalt not go there.
so i believe it has been said already:
Who has the most numbers BT, who has the best single marines GK, but i would not agre with most influence being ultra, all chapters have alot of influence but that is really only the knowledge of the chapter master seeing is how he holds all the secrets, yea we know ultra has its own system, but who controls terra...IF, GK have their own fortress moon, and dont forget DA with their half planet that no one can find, and BT are spread through out the galaxy and im sure no other chapter knows where all their keeps are therefore they would be near impossible to erradicate bc you could never find all of their monistaries, BA are influential as well, so the only this post really holds is to restate it asking
"Which space marine chapter is the strongest ignoring outside assets of that exact chapter I.E. no callling other chapters to help or IG to come save their butts?"
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's the Ultramarines, by a large margin. Their own fleet is impressive, but on top of that, they have the huge fleet operated by the Navy of Ultramar. In addition to their own numbers, they then have hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Imperial Guard quality PDF troopers to call on. The Ultramarines would be, without question, the most comfortable with combined arms actions with Imperial Navy and Guard forces, and have the ability to summon their own supporting elements in the event that official Imperial elements aren't available.
You make a good case for the Ultras, however, as I've said before the nature of the TC's question is pretty general and vague when you factor in all the elements and variables. I think some of the other posters are the closest thing to being "correct" when they say; numbers = BT, individual Marines = GK and influence = Ultras. Yet, it's still far from definitive and rather foolhardy to simply right off all the others like IF, DA, BA, etc. But without more specific paramaters in the question, it's going to be very hard for anyone - no matter how good their case - to give more specific answers.
There's a reason the Templars are so large, and recruit so aggressively. They fight like Doritos. "Crunch all you want, we'll make more." Their casualties must be horrendous in most battles.
Whoa now, I said it was a worthy point to make, but lets not over do it. Sure, they're a little more hot-headed and CQB-focused than your Codex Marines, but they're still Space Marines after all. They still have power armour, bolters, dreadnaughts, drop pods, terminators, land raiders, etc. Also, once more it's a double-edged sword; their zeal may result in tactically questionable actions - on occasion - and cause a slightly higher-than-average casualty rate when they close on their enemies, but, that same zeal also drives them to shug off that extra wound, to swing slightly harder and faster, to make sure they absolutely take their quota of blood before they relent or allow themselves death. To say that their casualites "must be horrendous" is perhaps a little hyperbolic.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Heh. Except the that's silly, and not what the thread was asking. A battle between the Ultramarines and Black Templars wouldn't be a giant Shootout at the OK Corral where everyone lines up and keeps firing until one side runs out of guys.
It's not at all silly, it is a perfectly valid point to make. The thread simply asks "who is the most powerful SM Chapter?". That's it. It doesn't specify "+ their influence and any attainable resources". Therefore a simple Chapter-vs-Chapter comparison on a hypothetical basis is a perfectly viable way to attempt to answer TC's question. Thus, if - on a hypothetical basis - both the BTs and the Ultras found themselves in a void, with their whole Chapters pitted each side of a planetoid, I'm inclined to agree that the Ultras are outgunned both in space and on land. On the other hand, numbers don't win the day, but they certainly help and I think that the BTs would win. It may break their power as a Chapter to do so, but I think they'd do it.
The Templars have 6000 Marines of varying quality (Neophytes are a far larger percentage of the total numbers than are typically used on the meta-game table top. Thus the Black Templars' numbers are significantly larger, but so is their percentage composition of Scout quality Marines
Do you have a citation for this? As far as I'm aware, the BTs Crusader Squads can carry only as many Neophytes as Initiates, but they can also carry less (I think anywhere between 7 and 3 on the tabletop - and a 3 Neophyte to 12 Initiate Crusade Squad is a rather substantial threat to an Ultra's 10-man TS). Therefore their numbers may be as much as 50% Neophytes, but is also may be little as 25%. Additionally, the nature of the Neophytes is that they follow their Initiate into battle, fighting alongside them in the thick of it. This is their training, they don't get to "ease into it" via scouting missions. This means they must quickly learn to fight as furiously and as successfully as their power armoured superiors if they wish to prove themselves, for this reason I'd say BT Neophytes are vastly different from a Codex Scout Marine, both in their attitude/approach to combat and in their overall combat capability.
If its Numbers in a single chapter then its not Ultramarines or other chapters due to the first founding every chapter was limited to a small amount of SM (small meaning Something like 1,000 per company, 100,000 per chapter i cant remember exactly) due to the heresy and robbert gulliman.
Only ones not restricted were Black templar, Space wolves and Dark Angels...
so if were talking size one of the three above.
If where talking training GK's. trained to kill demons and fight alone for extendend peroids of time. (BT can't compare here due to "on the Job" training).
If were talking renown Ultramarines. (due to there stories and merch..
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Heh. Except the that's silly, and not what the thread was asking. A battle between the Ultramarines and Black Templars wouldn't be a giant Shootout at the OK Corral where everyone lines up and keeps firing until one side runs out of guys.
It's not at all silly, it is a perfectly valid point to make. The thread simply asks "who is the most powerful SM Chapter?". That's it. It doesn't specify "+ their influence and any attainable resources".
Stop here. You've just left the realm of this question. What is the most powerful Space Marine Chapter. That's it. Everything you write past here is inventing stipulations and inventing your own question, not answering the question at hand.
The Templars have 6000 Marines of varying quality (Neophytes are a far larger percentage of the total numbers than are typically used on the meta-game table top. Thus the Black Templars' numbers are significantly larger, but so is their percentage composition of Scout quality Marines
Do you have a citation for this? As far as I'm aware, the BTs Crusader Squads can carry only as many Neophytes as Initiates, but they can also carry less (I think anywhere between 7 and 3 on the tabletop - and a 3 Neophyte to 12 Initiate Crusade Squad is a rather substantial threat to an Ultra's 10-man TS). Therefore their numbers may be as much as 50% Neophytes, but is also may be little as 25%.
Stop here. The average Space Marine Chapter is approximately 10% recruits. Why do I need a source if your numbers add up to 25-50%. Anywhere in that range, I am still correct. The question is how many Neophytes exist in the actual "fluff" Black Templars, not what the ideal metagame composition is.
Additionally, the nature of the Neophytes is that they follow their Initiate into battle, fighting alongside them in the thick of it. This is their training, they don't get to "ease into it" via scouting missions. This means they must quickly learn to fight as furiously and as successfully as their power armoured superiors if they wish to prove themselves, for this reason I'd say BT Neophytes are vastly different from a Codex Scout Marine, both in their attitude/approach to combat and in their overall combat capability.
Agreed. Hence why they fight like Doritos. Neophytes wearing significantly lighter armor still engaging in the same kind of high risk confrontations will inevitably result in heavier than normal casualties. Also, there are a lot of skills that the Scouts learn while they are "easing into it" that a BT Neophyte has to learn on the fly... or die. That doesn't automatically equate to a better overall standard of training, simply a lower margin of failure. And, at the same time, because they lack the utility of Scouts (or Devastators or long range Artillery) the Black Templars assault lacks a significant amount of supporting fires, meaning in general their casualties will probably be higher, both among Neophytes, and Initiates. Plus, the Black Templar misses out on a lot of the crucial training and combat experience that a Codex adherent chapter's Marines gets over the course of his career. I mean, bless the Black Templars little hearts for being all fanatical and crusadey. but suggesting they're on par with the most sophisticated, well trained Chapters is rather silly. Their only entry point into this discussion is their numbers.
So yes, their horde tactics and sheer weight of numbers will probably give them the advantage over most other Chapters, ceteris paribus. However, all things are not the same, so we have to examine every factor, not just a limited range of them that favor a specific faction. The question is what is the "Most powerful Space Marine chapter". Not 'what chapter would win in a Marines only face off?' Maybe there's another Chapter out there with resources on par or greater than the Ultramarines. Certainly the Ultramarines aren't the only Chapter with a multi-world domain. But they haven't been mentioned by GW yet.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Stop here. You've just left the realm of this question. What is the most powerful Space Marine Chapter. That's it. Everything you write past here is inventing stipulations and inventing your own question, not answering the question at hand.
Um, stop here? There aren't any rules or boundaries set forth by the question. As I've said multiple times, it's quite general and quite open. You don't decide what constitutes as being within this "realm", as it's something you've created and are trying to force it onto the question's paramaters. Your previous case citing the IN and IG elements that get automatically appended (according to you) to the Ultra's standing in power, are just as much "invented stipulations" (in fact more so, seeing as they extend beyond the Chapter itself) in regards to answering the question at hand.
Stop here. The average Space Marine Chapter is approximately 10% recruits. Why do I need a source if your numbers add up to 25-50%. Anywhere in that range, I am still correct. The question is how many Neophytes exist in the actual "fluff" Black Templars, not what the ideal metagame composition is.
Yes, so where's your citation for the fluff Neophyte number? The reason you need a source is because you are making a claim that the BTs have "far greater numbers" of scout class Marines than Codex Chapters, which may be entirely false. My numbers are examples, more akin to ball-park figures. In reality it's likely to be 25% or less. Neophytes will not be Neophytes for very long: they either die in battle or prove themselves worthy of power armour. Point is, any increased margin of scout class Marines over Codex Chapters will be outweighed by the increased margin of Initiates over Tactical Marines.
Also, there are a lot of skills that the Scouts learn while they are "easing into it" that a BT Neophyte has to learn on the fly... or die. That doesn't automatically equate to a better overall standard of training, simply a lower margin of failure.
Agreed. However, the BTs aren't interested much in recon ops. They're more of a "just point me at the enemy so I can start smashing things" kind of force. The Neophyte is honed for closing on and killing his enemy and has little want or need for scout training. Again it comes back to the point I raised about specialising: the BTs sacrifice an "all-rounder" type force for a superior CC/assault one.
Plus, the Black Templar misses out on a lot of the crucial training and combat experience that a Codex adherent chapter's Marines gets over the course of his career.
Citation?
However, all things are not the same, so we have to examine every factor, not just a limited range of them that favor a specific faction.
What, you mean like the following:
Their only entry point into this discussion is their numbers.
Besides, this is exactly what I'm attempting to do, if you read through the topic and all of my posts in it. Despite my professed bias in my first response, I've actually retained a semblance of objectivity, and even refrained from condescending, patronising remarks like the following:
I mean, bless the Black Templars little hearts for being all fanatical and crusadey. but suggesting they're on par with the most sophisticated, well trained Chapters is rather silly.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Heh. Except the that's silly, and not what the thread was asking. A battle between the Ultramarines and Black Templars wouldn't be a giant Shootout at the OK Corral where everyone lines up and keeps firing until one side runs out of guys.
It's not at all silly, it is a perfectly valid point to make. The thread simply asks "who is the most powerful SM Chapter?". That's it. It doesn't specify "+ their influence and any attainable resources".
Stop here. You've just left the realm of this question. What is the most powerful Space Marine Chapter. That's it. Everything you write past here is inventing stipulations and inventing your own question, not answering the question at hand.
The Templars have 6000 Marines of varying quality (Neophytes are a far larger percentage of the total numbers than are typically used on the meta-game table top. Thus the Black Templars' numbers are significantly larger, but so is their percentage composition of Scout quality Marines
Do you have a citation for this? As far as I'm aware, the BTs Crusader Squads can carry only as many Neophytes as Initiates, but they can also carry less (I think anywhere between 7 and 3 on the tabletop - and a 3 Neophyte to 12 Initiate Crusade Squad is a rather substantial threat to an Ultra's 10-man TS). Therefore their numbers may be as much as 50% Neophytes, but is also may be little as 25%.
Stop here. The average Space Marine Chapter is approximately 10% recruits. Why do I need a source if your numbers add up to 25-50%. Anywhere in that range, I am still correct. The question is how many Neophytes exist in the actual "fluff" Black Templars, not what the ideal metagame composition is.
Additionally, the nature of the Neophytes is that they follow their Initiate into battle, fighting alongside them in the thick of it. This is their training, they don't get to "ease into it" via scouting missions. This means they must quickly learn to fight as furiously and as successfully as their power armoured superiors if they wish to prove themselves, for this reason I'd say BT Neophytes are vastly different from a Codex Scout Marine, both in their attitude/approach to combat and in their overall combat capability.
Agreed. Hence why they fight like Doritos. Neophytes wearing significantly lighter armor still engaging in the same kind of high risk confrontations will inevitably result in heavier than normal casualties. Also, there are a lot of skills that the Scouts learn while they are "easing into it" that a BT Neophyte has to learn on the fly... or die. That doesn't automatically equate to a better overall standard of training, simply a lower margin of failure. And, at the same time, because they lack the utility of Scouts (or Devastators or long range Artillery) the Black Templars assault lacks a significant amount of supporting fires, meaning in general their casualties will probably be higher, both among Neophytes, and Initiates. Plus, the Black Templar misses out on a lot of the crucial training and combat experience that a Codex adherent chapter's Marines gets over the course of his career. I mean, bless the Black Templars little hearts for being all fanatical and crusadey. but suggesting they're on par with the most sophisticated, well trained Chapters is rather silly. Their only entry point into this discussion is their numbers.
So yes, their horde tactics and sheer weight of numbers will probably give them the advantage over most other Chapters, ceteris paribus. However, all things are not the same, so we have to examine every factor, not just a limited range of them that favor a specific faction. The question is what is the "Most powerful Space Marine chapter". Not 'what chapter would win in a Marines only face off?' Maybe there's another Chapter out there with resources on par or greater than the Ultramarines. Certainly the Ultramarines aren't the only Chapter with a multi-world domain. But they haven't been mentioned by GW yet.
Neophytes will not be Neophytes for very long: they either die in battle or prove themselves worthy of power armour.
Now the Black Templars have discovered a way to speed up the implant maturation process too? Wow. I guess I underestimated them.
Plus, the Black Templar misses out on a lot of the crucial training and combat experience that a Codex adherent chapter's Marines gets over the course of his career.
Citation?
Do they have Devastator Squads? Or Scouts? Nope? Guess they don't go through those stages of the training all Codex adherent Chapter Marines do. /shrug/ I'm not making stuff up here to make anyone angry. Just presenting the facts as they are.
Besides, this is exactly what I'm attempting to do, if you read through the topic and all of my posts in it. Despite my professed bias in my first response, I've actually retained a semblance of objectivity, and even refrained from condescending, patronising remarks like the following:
I mean, bless the Black Templars little hearts for being all fanatical and crusadey. but suggesting they're on par with the most sophisticated, well trained Chapters is rather silly.
Patronizing? Sure. If any actual Black Templars are offended, I guess they can report me, lol. Or assault my house and kill me. Otherwise, we're talking about little toy soldiers, not real people.
The bottom line is, we can tweak this discussion in anyway we like. But suggesting that the Black Templars are more powerful than the Ultramarines just because they have more Space Marines while ignoring the fact that the Ultramarines have more of everything else is rather silly. Again, how many Hive Fleets have the Black Templars stopped again? The power base of the Ultramarines is staggeringly larger than the Black Templars, and more cohesive. I understand that a lot of people dislike the Ultramarines for a variety of absurd and poorly supported reasons. But hating them doesn't change the facts. Really, it's important to understand that your favorite color of toy soldiers doesn't have to be the best for you to enjoy them and their fluff. Heck, look at all the Crimson Fists players (they blew themselves up, lol) Lamenters, and Word Bearers players.
Veteran Sergeant, just because we're talking about little toy soldiers, doesn't mean you have to be patronising to others putting forward their views on the topic at hand; some might consider it rude and take offense, not because you're belittling their toy soldiers, but because your belittling them. As for your argument, to say Ultras have better and more varied training is true, they have devastators and scouts, but BT don't need them, as these only hinder their fighting style (which admittedly, may result in higher casualties). But to say that their more experienced has no grounds, considering that BT do more fighting (considering they actively go looking for fights as oppose to guarding their empire) and against a greater variety of foes. Their fleet is more powerful by a long way than that of the Ultras, and so they'll have dominance over space. If they wanted to, they could beseige the Ultras with such an experienced, well armed and well commanded fleet (see their performance on Armageddon). Sure, the Ultras have human auxilaries aiding them, but do these really match up to 5 chapters worth of marines? The BT don't need to almost be destroyed to prove themselves, they already do in their crusades.
I think it depends entirely on what circumstances the battle happens in and what the location is. Lots of chapters could
claim victory over others in the right circumstances. In general I think I would have to go with the Ultramarines purely due to their command over the large numbers of Ultramar guard forces and fleets (and orbital star fortresses and defence lasers and whatever else).
I can't see the Black Templars winning if they attacked Ultramar. A battle outwith Ultramar would a closer thing, but without knowing what exact fleet dispositions they both have...*shrugs* In a lighting battle of attacking strategic assets, then BT all the way. In a protracted war... Ultramarines.
However, as an example in circumstances take the Iron Hands(despite the terrible lack of background they are given on resource/fleet disposition) , I doubt that any chapter in existance could defeat them on their homeworld of Medusa.
During the 13th Black Crusade, 10,000 traitor guardsman tanks attacked them and got annihilated. They have 10 Ordinatus-level mobile fortress, each with "whole formations" of predator Annihilator tanks inside (amongst other things). Who knows what defences and fleet they have against space vessells but with their close ties to Adeptus Mechanicus and love of tech I think we can assume they woud be formidable indeed.
Ok a few things
First
No need to get hostile and take things personal.
Second
BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?)
Third
Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do, which means that they have spent way more hours fighting in close combat, and to say that BT neophytes dont learn long range is wrong as well because, if that Crusader squad is a squad with a heavy weapon then the neophytes learn that style as well as when that squad charges. OH and lets not forget that Fluff even states that BT spend ALL their time training or praying or fighting so... pretty sure that means not lullying around on ultramar playing friends with IG.
Fourth
Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so.
Fifth
Am i saying that BT are stronger then Ultra ,no i am simply stating that the BT have assets as well and how they could exploit them, BCIMHO i think it would probally be the Imperial Fists that would be the strongest chapter simply based that they are on Terra and Good Luck to any Chapter that tries to get past those defences and still have a possibility of fighting a war. I also stated in an earlier post that you cant forget about DA no one but a DA or a fallen has seen the Likes of their Hidden fortress blob of a planet in what 10k years and if they have they havent lived to tell the tale. So i am not putting my money on any specific chapter because say two chapters (lets just say BT and Ultra) were to try to go to war then how many other Chapters do you think would show up and find out which one they thought was turning to chaos then they would all turn on the "Heretical chapter" and demolish it wth a hundred chapters.
Draigo wrote:Gk don't have a superior fleet. They do not conduct space battles. Most their ships are fast and light to get to chaos hot zones not conduct war in space. The inquisition do the fighting in space for the gk. Gk are hard to bring into this because they really rely on the inquisition. Plus it has been shown that gk can get overwhelmed by numbers. They do not possess the needed skills to conduct guerilla warefare to sumplant the larger forces of the other chapters.
Well their minimal fleet activity helps to keep their presence to a low - in and out before anyone notices, etc. But I'm not sure where you get the notion of struggling to supplant other chapters from. They've always been willing and able to deploy enough troops to do that task when required. Considering the state they left the Flame Falcons and the Relictors in, they're very good at doing so too.
Didnt 1 brotherhood of GK destroy the flame falcons inside their own fortress monastery?
Banzaimash wrote:but BT don't need them, as these only hinder their fighting style
Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.
But to say that their more experienced has no grounds, considering that BT do more fighting (considering they actively go looking for fights as oppose to guarding their empire) and against a greater variety of foes.
That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.
Their fleet is more powerful by a long way than that of the Ultras, and so they'll have dominance over space.
I guess you haven't read anything that's been said about just how absurdly immense the fleet of the Ultramar Navy is. The Black Templars will have no such dominance and would be wholly unable to siege any of Ultramars planets. At least for very long.
Sure, the Ultras have human auxilaries aiding them, but do these really match up to 5 chapters worth of marines?
Given a 10-1 ratio, the Ultramarines need 50,000 PDF troopers to counter the Black Templars numerical advantage. Given the fact that the actual differential is probably more like 100-1 or more, yes, they match up, lol.
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Cain wrote:Ok a few things
First
No need to get hostile and take things personal.
I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.
Second
BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?)
So the Black Templars had the largest fleet present at Armageddon. Check.
Third
Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do,
Unsupportable statement. Their standard of training is actually much lower. Merely surviving isn't the way to determine the quality of a recruit. Sure, the Marines who survive to become Initiates are probably Marines of a reasonable quality, but given that anybody can be killed by the "bullet with your name on it", a pool of recruits that suffers an extremely high casualty rate won't produce the best possible recruits, only the luckiest. Look at the incident that happend in the movie/book Black Hawk Down. The Delta Force operators present were amongst the best warrior on the planet, and yet five of them were killed by wacko militiamen high on khat, mostly shooting from the hip.
Fourth
Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so.
Now we're just getting silly. Sure, the Black Templars could "glass" Maccragge and ship truckoads of new Black Templars, but then they would have revealed their flagrant violation of Imperial Law and would be traitors, not unlike the Astral Claws. The only reason the Black Templars get away with their swollen ranks is that they are so widespread. Let's try and keep this discussion as theoretical. The second you try to start constructing combat models for it, we have to introduce a huge number of external variables.
Cain wrote:Ok a few things First No need to get hostile and take things personal. Second BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?) Third Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do, which means that they have spent way more hours fighting in close combat, and to say that BT neophytes dont learn long range is wrong as well because, if that Crusader squad is a squad with a heavy weapon then the neophytes learn that style as well as when that squad charges. OH and lets not forget that Fluff even states that BT spend ALL their time training or praying or fighting so... pretty sure that means not lullying around on ultramar playing friends with IG. Fourth Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so. Fifth Am i saying that BT are stronger then Ultra ,no i am simply stating that the BT have assets as well and how they could exploit them, BCIMHO i think it would probally be the Imperial Fists that would be the strongest chapter simply based that they are on Terra and Good Luck to any Chapter that tries to get past those defences and still have a possibility of fighting a war. I also stated in an earlier post that you cant forget about DA no one but a DA or a fallen has seen the Likes of their Hidden fortress blob of a planet in what 10k years and if they have they havent lived to tell the tale. So i am not putting my money on any specific chapter because say two chapters (lets just say BT and Ultra) were to try to go to war then how many other Chapters do you think would show up and find out which one they thought was turning to chaos then they would all turn on the "Heretical chapter" and demolish it wth a hundred chapters.
Brother it's not that Black Templars are not powerful... they can beat any Chapter in 1 on 1 combat. But Ultramarines can call to their aid all Chapters that descended from them, of course not everyone will answer that call but in the end they will overwhelm even the BT. In sphere of influence, politics and diplomacy Ultramarines are also better - the only thing Templars are better then Ultramarines are fast attacks and close combat. And the fact that they don't use Codex Astartes granted them some better results then Chapters who follow it to the bone. But overall Ultramarines beat Templars anyday, just using sheer numbers of their descendant Chapters.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Now the Black Templars have discovered a way to speed up the implant maturation process too? Wow. I guess I underestimated them.
Doubt it. Unless you can provide any, I don't know of any GW material that details the specifics of how the BTs handle the implant and maturation process. However, because of the fact that all BTs become Initiates (read: Space Marines) via an on-battlefield, trial-by-fire mentoring system, it stands to reason that they do most - if not all - of the preliminary preparations on their recruitement monasteries and/or service on their starships. When a Castellan/Marshal and/or MoS/Reclusiarch swings by to pick up some men, fresh-fashed humans yet to begin their "marine-ification" aren't going to be any good, they'll need supermen who are a least close to being useful, as in, nearly ready for PA.
Do they have Devastator Squads? Or Scouts? Nope? Guess they don't go through those stages of the training all Codex adherent Chapter Marines do. /shrug/ I'm not making stuff up here to make anyone angry. Just presenting the facts as they are.
Then perhaps you need to show me where it says that the BTs don't have access to heavy weapons, tanks, orbital bombardment capability, dreadnaughts or any other unit or piece of equipment that the Codex Chapters have. Until then, your "facts" stand about as straight as a greenskin.
But suggesting that the Black Templars are more powerful than the Ultramarines just because they have more Space Marines while ignoring the fact that the Ultramarines have more of everything else is rather silly.
Which is why, if you read carefully, I've supported those posters who have said that the Ultras hold a pretty strong claim to "most powerful Chapter".
I understand that a lot of people dislike the Ultramarines for a variety of absurd and poorly supported reasons. But hating them doesn't change the facts. Really, it's important to understand that your favorite color of toy soldiers doesn't have to be the best for you to enjoy them and their fluff. Heck, look at all the Crimson Fists players (they blew themselves up, lol) Lamenters, and Word Bearers players.
Absolutely agree. I've never much understood the dislike for the boys in blue myself. Which is why (again if you've read carefully) I neither hate the Ultras or have allowed any such bias change "the facts".
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Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.
Once more, they are perfectly capable of providing heavy weapons and long range support. Any BT commander not covering his line of charging LRCs is not a very good tactician, seeing as their forte is in close combat.
That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.
Not really that unsupported though, is it. Their fluff states that the BTs have waged a Crusade against the enemies of the Emperor since the end of the HH when they were founded. They hold particular hatred for the heretic, the witch and the alien. Their fleets have splintered and dispersed across the galaxy, constantly driving forth seeking out such foes. The Ultras are more concerned with keeping their mini-Empire secure, localised on the Eastern Fringe. They are also known for being quite a Tyranid-focused Chapter because of their location (i.e. they're pretty fixed in their position and in their role). All this information is pretty common knowledge. Therefore to say that the BTs do more fighting and against a wider variety of foes is pretty substantiated.
I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.
Sure, if by "facts" you mean unsupported declaratives and subjective conjecture.
Their standard of training is actually much lower.
^ See. I'm gonna need a citation for this (still).
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.
Once more, they are perfectly capable of providing heavy weapons and long range support. Any BT commander not covering his line of charging LRCs is not a very good tactician, seeing as their forte is in close combat.
This almost always sounds patronizing, but it's the truth. I can't impart to you my years of combat experience and knowledge on a forum. But safe to say, the way you imagine the battlefield to actually work is... incomplete.
That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.
Not really that unsupported though, is it. Their fluff states that the BTs have waged a Crusade against the enemies of the Emperor since the end of the HH when they were founded. They hold particular hatred for the heretic, the witch and the alien. Their fleets have splintered and dispersed across the galaxy, constantly driving forth seeking out such foes. The Ultras are more concerned with keeping their mini-Empire secure, localised on the Eastern Fringe. They are also known for being quite a Tyranid-focused Chapter because of their location (i.e. they're pretty fixed in their position and in their role). All this information is pretty common knowledge. Therefore to say that the BTs do more fighting and against a wider variety of foes is pretty substantiated.
No... it isn't. You're just making stuff up and twisting certain facts to support a biased and localized view of things. None of what you said after "seeking such foes" was true, it was just stuff that you invented or chose to interpret as part of an elaborate confirmation bias.
I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.
Sure, if by "facts" you mean unsupported declaratives and subjective conjecture.
While yes, everything I've said in a serious tone has been fact, your response does scream, at the top of its lungs, in a now-hoarse tone, something about calling a kettle black.
Their standard of training is actually much lower.
^ See. I'm gonna need a citation for this (still).
I clearly cited the missing areas of Black Templar training before. If they are clearly missing out on the broad spectrum training that a Codex Neophyte does, then the standard of training is lower. Your choice to ignore it is yours, but saying I didn't cite anything doesn't mean I didn't do it. And, to boot, I'm telling you, from an experienced standpoint (I was a weapons and tactics trainer in the Marine Corps), that the method of training which involved a high casualty, low margin of failure, methodology that isn't based primarily on skill or evaluation isn't going to produce the highest quality recruits. No professional army in the history of mankind has trained in that manner, and none ever will. The "Throw it at the wall, see what sticks" approach of the Black Templars is highly flawed, to put it in the nicest possible manner. However, it is in character with their fluff description, as unlikely as their fluff actually is when seriously considered. There's the understanding that 40K doesn't have to be governed by reason or realism all the time. But if we're going to make theoretical comparisons, then we have to create a constant for that to be based on. The constant, in this case, has to be an analysis of the effectiveness of a dedicated, broad spectrum training regimen based on real world application, evaluation and mentor demonstration versus one focused on basic core skills and the ability to mimic them under fire. You are allowed to believe that the latter process is just as effective as the former. That is your right.
Banzaimash wrote:but BT don't need them, as these only hinder their fighting style
Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.
But to say that their more experienced has no grounds, considering that BT do more fighting (considering they actively go looking for fights as oppose to guarding their empire) and against a greater variety of foes.
That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.
Their fleet is more powerful by a long way than that of the Ultras, and so they'll have dominance over space.
I guess you haven't read anything that's been said about just how absurdly immense the fleet of the Ultramar Navy is. The Black Templars will have no such dominance and would be wholly unable to siege any of Ultramars planets. At least for very long.
Sure, the Ultras have human auxilaries aiding them, but do these really match up to 5 chapters worth of marines?
Given a 10-1 ratio, the Ultramarines need 50,000 PDF troopers to counter the Black Templars numerical advantage. Given the fact that the actual differential is probably more like 100-1 or more, yes, they match up, lol.
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Cain wrote:Ok a few things
First
No need to get hostile and take things personal.
I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.
Second
BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?)
So the Black Templars had the largest fleet present at Armageddon. Check.
Third
Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do,
Unsupportable statement. Their standard of training is actually much lower. Merely surviving isn't the way to determine the quality of a recruit. Sure, the Marines who survive to become Initiates are probably Marines of a reasonable quality, but given that anybody can be killed by the "bullet with your name on it", a pool of recruits that suffers an extremely high casualty rate won't produce the best possible recruits, only the luckiest. Look at the incident that happend in the movie/book Black Hawk Down. The Delta Force operators present were amongst the best warrior on the planet, and yet five of them were killed by wacko militiamen high on khat, mostly shooting from the hip.
Fourth
Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so.
Now we're just getting silly. Sure, the Black Templars could "glass" Maccragge and ship truckoads of new Black Templars, but then they would have revealed their flagrant violation of Imperial Law and would be traitors, not unlike the Astral Claws. The only reason the Black Templars get away with their swollen ranks is that they are so widespread. Let's try and keep this discussion as theoretical. The second you try to start constructing combat models for it, we have to introduce a huge number of external variables.
The lack of Devastator squads doesn't indicate a complete absence of supporting fire. BT use large numbers of Land Raiders (which put down a tremendous amount of firepower) to attack weak points in the enemy line, or deploy drop pods full of hand-to-hand fighters directly into the fray. It's not like they just charge at them screaming, that would be suicidal, and no Astartes would be so foolish to waste themselves thus unless as a last resort. No BT would want to join a Devastator squad, as it would be a great dishonour to not follow the way of Sigismund and crack heads in close combat. Also, the statement that the BT would be more experienced at combat isn't really unsupported as you suggest, considering that they have been fighting pretty much non-stop for ten thousand years, only stopping so that they can journey along to find more enemies. In this way, don't you think that with all the enemies that they've fought, they'd have learnt much more through experience, from sword stances to fleet tactics. On the other hand, although the Ultra's reputation is certainly great (eg. their wars against the Tyranids and the Tau) they firstly are limited in their experience of fighting enemies (mainly Tyranids and Tau) and they also don't fight as much as the BT.
The BT naval force is one of the most formidable in the Imperium. The BT, being a wholly space-faring chapter, and on so large a scale that might support their larger numbers of warriors, has a large fleet (one could make the assumption that in total they have the naval power of 6 chapters or more). Also, this features the Eternal Crusader, which after the Phalanx and The Rock, is probably the most powerful vessel among space marines. Finally, this fleet has been tested on many occasions, and is commanded by a very skilled High Marshal Helbrecht, who, with his well planned and executed boarding actions (close quarters, where BT excel) broke the back of Ghazghull's massive fleet on Armageddon, which included space hulks. If you can bring any evidence of the size or nature of the Ultramar Navy, please post it, as it would provide a useful point of reference in the comparison of the BT and Ultramarine's naval power.
With regard to the Ultramar PDF, while they may be well trained, they've only really fought Tyranids, and so fighting Astartes of any kind would come as a lethal shock. For while they could function admirably holding the line against the Tyranids, their command structure would be ripped apart by the standard Drop pod insertion tactics, and then they'd be unable to mount a coherent defence against the oncoming wall of land raiders. Also, you're example of the Delta Force being killed by Somali Militia men isn't totally valid, considering they were outnumbered, running out of supplies (they'd planned on a rapid raid, not a protracted gun battle), and surrounded by militia. On top of this, they were only men, not 8ft tall super-humans in tank armour carrying automatic grenade launchers. A more apt comparison to be drawn from this example would be that between Stormtroopers and cultists, in which I wouldn't be surprised that a few Stormtroopers would die.
A final point. It has been argued that the BT zeal and preference for close combat makes them the less effective fighting force, and in some ways this is understandable. However, one could also argue that the rigid adherence to the Codex Astartes by the Ultra's could hinder them too, as it has in the past. The fact that they are a jack of all trades and so a master of none does mean, that against such a specialised force as BT, they may find a lot of their units harder to bring down as they don't have the optimum amount of firepower needed to take them down, only an average amount.
I'm going to start this by saying I do not care for the smurfs personally but I don't understand how people can constantly over look how effective they are because they're well rounded.
People keep overlooking the value of scouts, recon and any sort of guerilla warfare. BT people keep saying the bt don't need it. What? Are you kidding me? Snipers have ended conflicts with a single bullet.
Same goes for the gk supporters ignoring the fact that their entire force is shock troopers designed to fight daemons specifically where there is not a need for more subtle warfare.
In a world not protected by fluff armor you can't ignore snipers, scouting and other aspects of war.
Banzaimash wrote:A final point. It has been argued that the BT zeal and preference for close combat makes them the less effective fighting force, and in some ways this is understandable. However, one could also argue that the rigid adherence to the Codex Astartes by the Ultra's could hinder them too, as it has in the past. The fact that they are a jack of all trades and so a master of none does mean, that against such a specialised force as BT, they may find a lot of their units harder to bring down as they don't have the optimum amount of firepower needed to take them down, only an average amount.
Specifically addressing your delusions has lost its luster for for me, so I'll instead I'll focus on this new gem.
Aderence to the Codex doesn't mean what you think it does. A Codex adherent chapter merely follows the rough organizational and training guidelines as set down by Guilliman. The rest of the Codex is a giant strategic and tactical manual for addressing just about every possible thing that has ever been encountered on the battlefield, and a guideline for a commander to utilize when making his command level decisions using his own initiative and experience. A commander facing the Black Templars would know exactly what he was facing and would be able to equip his forces in an optimal manner for dealing with them. The Black Templars commander, on the other hand, doesn't have that same option; he only has the limited assets the Black Templars bring to bear. Remember, the Codex chapter has everything the Black Templars do. Drop Pods, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc. The Black Templars commander has no heavy weapons teams, no surface to surface artillery (Whirlwinds), no organic, ground based reconnaissance teams to act directly or serve as forward observers. Everything you say the Black Templars can do, the Ultramarines can do back to them.
Sadly, because of Graham McNeill's poorly researched, poorly thought out, and all around terrible exmaples of how not to write military fiction that The Black Library calls the Ultramarines series, I can see how people have the wrong idea here. McNeill is the C.S. Goto of the Ultramarines.
It's true, the BT's apparent lack of reconnaissance ability is one of their major flaws. Snipers can have massive sway over the way wars turn out, but they can also just as easily be made obsolete in certain situations. And fighting Astartes could be considered one of those situations, with them being so heavy armoured .etc. One could argue that snipers could hit their eye slits or joins in their armour, but in reality, would this really be an easy feat, and would they be able to withstand the return fire from a PA marine, who, with their helmet aiming gizmos, superior training and sensory enhancements would be able to return fire just as accurately, albeit with a less suited weapon. As for reconnaissance, although they may lack the potentially more accurate information provided by scouts, they can still use sensor arrays on their ships, in a similar way that Predator type drones are used today. So although the BT may lack as much reconnaissance as other SM chapters, they still have substantial amounts while they have air superiority (which is something that they have the ability to obtain in most situations).
Veteran Sergeant wrote:This almost always sounds patronizing, but it's the truth. I can't impart to you my years of combat experience and knowledge on a forum. But safe to say, the way you imagine the battlefield to actually work is... incomplete.
I don't know what point you're making here. But what I do know is that the 40K universe resembles little the way an actual battlefield would work. All I was saying is that you are wrong when you say BTs lack training in heavy weapons and/or long range ordnance. Nothing stops any BT army list from including anything a Codex Chapter uses. Meaning? BTs are trained to use any and everything the Ultras are. Simple as that. No amount of real life combat experience or knowledge has any impact on that fact (or much relevance).
No... it isn't. You're just making stuff up and twisting certain facts to support a biased and localized view of things. None of what you said after "seeking such foes" was true, it was just stuff that you invented or chose to interpret as part of an elaborate confirmation bias.
How am I making stuff up? Are you trying to argue that the Ultras aren't concerned with maintaining their realm? Or that they aren't localised out on the Eastern Fringe, where their operations are naturally going to be more focused on that area of the galaxy? Or that they're not known for their role in the fluff as Tyranid specific enemies (so much so that they have unique "Tyranid veteran" themed fluff and minis)? I'm sorry, but if that's the case than you're simply incorrect, and I wish you luck in your doomed endevour.
I clearly cited the missing areas of Black Templar training before. If they are clearly missing out on the broad spectrum training that a Codex Neophyte does, then the standard of training is lower.
So clear as to be completely invisible, perhaps? You simply stating an (incorrect) declarative does not equate a citation. A citation links to a source which provides supportive and/or elaborative information which you are basing your viewpoint around. You going "er, I did cite it before when I said the things that agree with what I said" doesn't count, sorry. Please provide a link to an official source that states; "BT marines lack training that makes them inferior soldiers to other Codex Marines". Until you do this, your statements are just that: statements.
Your choice to ignore it is yours, but saying I didn't cite anything doesn't mean I didn't do it.
Correct. The fact that you didn't source your words means you didn't do it. I simply picked up on that and stated it as an observation.
There's the understanding that 40K doesn't have to be governed by reason or realism all the time. But if we're going to make theoretical comparisons, then we have to create a constant for that to be based on. The constant, in this case, has to be an analysis of the effectiveness of a dedicated, broad spectrum training regimen based on real world application, evaluation and mentor demonstration versus one focused on basic core skills and the ability to mimic them under fire.
Except that it isn't the constant put forth by the TC or most of the other posters. It's one you're now trying to force onto the situation. You're completely correct with the first sentence in the above quote, yet you seem to have lost sight of that understanding, and are now verring considerably off course. The BTs, both in the fluff and on the tabletop are not portrayed as an inferior Space Marine force. It's as simple as that. I don't know how many times or in how many different ways I can tell you this simple truth.
Banzaimash wrote:A final point. It has been argued that the BT zeal and preference for close combat makes them the less effective fighting force, and in some ways this is understandable. However, one could also argue that the rigid adherence to the Codex Astartes by the Ultra's could hinder them too, as it has in the past. The fact that they are a jack of all trades and so a master of none does mean, that against such a specialised force as BT, they may find a lot of their units harder to bring down as they don't have the optimum amount of firepower needed to take them down, only an average amount.
Specifically addressing your delusions has lost its luster for for me, so I'll instead I'll focus on this new gem.
Aderence to the Codex doesn't mean what you think it does. A Codex adherent chapter merely follows the rough organizational and training guidelines as set down by Guilliman. The rest of the Codex is a giant strategic and tactical manual for addressing just about every possible thing that has ever been encountered on the battlefield, and a guideline for a commander to utilize when making his command level decisions using his own initiative and experience. A commander facing the Black Templars would know exactly what he was facing and would be able to equip his forces in an optimal manner for dealing with them. The Black Templars commander, on the other hand, doesn't have that same option; he only has the limited assets the Black Templars bring to bear. Remember, the Codex chapter has everything the Black Templars do. Drop Pods, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc. The Black Templars commander has no heavy weapons teams, no surface to surface artillery (Whirlwinds), no organic, ground based reconnaissance teams to act directly or serve as forward observers. Everything you say the Black Templars can do, the Ultramarines can do back to them.
Sadly, because of Graham McNeill's poorly researched, poorly thought out, and all around terrible exmaples of how not to write military fiction that The Black Library calls the Ultramarines series, I can see how people have the wrong idea here. McNeill is the C.S. Goto of the Ultramarines.
There's no need to call people delusional. What you may believe is humourous can be perceived as being insulting, and you don't need that to prove your points, considering that you seem to be perfectly capable of putting forward good arguments without it, such as your above point. The BT aren't so much lacking in equipment as you have said, in fact they are able to equip with either weapons suited to the oddly frequent hand to hand engagements of the 41st Millenium or with the standard weaponry of tactical squad, something that Ultras may be unable to do. With Ultras, they may be able to alter their troops for maximum effect, but how much is maximum? Considering that in order to be the ultimate tactically flexible force as designed in the Codex they neither specialise in ranged nor hand-to hand fighting,but can perform both roles reasonably well. Not everyone in their army can take powerful ranged weapons, or jump packs .etc. as they don't specialise in these tenets (a comparison can be made to BA, who, in giving most of their force jump packs, has limited bike units, although the actual practicality of bikes in warfare such as that found in the 41st millenium is questionable) they merely can perform them. So while an Ultra commander may be able to maximise his force efficiency through using as many of the required troop as possible, the actual availability of these units will be limited.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:A commander facing the Black Templars would know exactly what he was facing and would be able to equip his forces in an optimal manner for dealing with them. The Black Templars commander, on the other hand, doesn't have that same option; he only has the limited assets the Black Templars bring to bear. Remember, the Codex chapter has everything the Black Templars do. Drop Pods, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, etc. The Black Templars commander has no heavy weapons teams, no surface to surface artillery (Whirlwinds), no organic, ground based reconnaissance teams to act directly or serve as forward observers. Everything you say the Black Templars can do, the Ultramarines can do back to them.
This is where you're mostly going wrong. BTs have access to everything from the Codex, except for scouts. The Ultras having scouts is not a game-changer.
Anfauglir wrote:
How am I making stuff up? Are you trying to argue that the Ultras aren't concerned with maintaining their realm? Or that they aren't localised out on the Eastern Fringe, where their operations are naturally going to be more focused on that area of the galaxy?
I find the idea that Templars do more fighting than Ultramarines to be rather false really
Black Templar cursade --> flying around with their ships, looking for trouble. They then engage the trouble and defeat it. After that they return to one of their recruitment worlds to get new Neophytes.
Ultramarines--> flying around with their ships, looking for trouble. They then engage the trouble and defeat it. After that they return to their home world to get new Aspirants.
There is not really much difference between the number of engagements a Chapter and the Black Templars will have. Virtually every engagement of a Codex Chapter will also involve them arriving there with their ships. Codex Chapters are not really expected to fight on their home worlds alot, you know? That is rather the exception. Every time a Codex Chapter fights somewhere, they will go there with their ships. Just like the Black Templars do. The difference is that Codex Companies return to their home world for resupplies, while the Black Templars approach one of their recruitment worlds.
Anfauglir wrote:
Or that they're not known for their role in the fluff as Tyranid specific enemies (so much so that they have unique "Tyranid veteran" themed fluff and minis)? I'm sorry, but if that's the case than you're simply incorrect, and I wish you luck in your doomed endevour.
That’s a rather lamentable piece of fluff written by Graham McNeill that makes little sense, considering that last Tyranid excursion after Behemoth in that general area was 250 years later with Hive Fleet Kraken. Thankfully the Tyranid War Hunters seem to be slowly being retconned out of the fluff of the FFG sourcebooks are any indication.
Banzaimash wrote:It's true, the BT's apparent lack of reconnaissance ability is one of their major flaws. Snipers can have massive sway over the way wars turn out, but they can also just as easily be made obsolete in certain situations. And fighting Astartes could be considered one of those situations, with them being so heavy armoured .etc. One could argue that snipers could hit their eye slits or joins in their armour, but in reality, would this really be an easy feat, and would they be able to withstand the return fire from a PA marine, who, with their helmet aiming gizmos, superior training and sensory enhancements would be able to return fire just as accurately, albeit with a less suited weapon. As for reconnaissance, although they may lack the potentially more accurate information provided by scouts, they can still use sensor arrays on their ships, in a similar way that Predator type drones are used today. So although the BT may lack as much reconnaissance as other SM chapters, they still have substantial amounts while they have air superiority (which is something that they have the ability to obtain in most situations).
If a lasgun can pierce their armor a sniper rifle can. Eye sensors don't mean much when I can hit you from a mile away. Armor again doesn't mean didly compared to even the rifles and ammo we use now. If I can shoot a man in an abram I bet I can pierce power armor. Your fluff armor wont save you from a bullet to the bridge of your nose or base of your skull. Superior training and all the bells and whistles don't make you bullet proof. You can run all you want you'll just die tired.
Gree wrote:
I find the idea that Templars do more fighting than Ultramarines to be rather false really
Black Templar cursade --> flying around with their ships, looking for trouble. They then engage the trouble and defeat it. After that they return to one of their recruitment worlds to get new Neophytes.
Ultramarines--> flying around with their ships, looking for trouble. They then engage the trouble and defeat it. After that they return to their home world to get new Aspirants.
There is not really much difference between the number of engagements a Chapter and the Black Templars will have. Virtually every engagement of a Codex Chapter will also involve them arriving there with their ships. Codex Chapters are not really expected to fight on their home worlds alot, you know? That is rather the exception. Every time a Codex Chapter fights somewhere, they will go there with their ships. Just like the Black Templars do. The difference is that Codex Companies return to their home world for resupplies, while the Black Templars approach one of their recruitment worlds.
Well, in truth I wasn't stating that the BTs fight more often than the Ultras is an irrefutable fact, just that the perception isn't as unsupported as VS was claiming. However slight, there is a difference as to how they operate compared to other Chapters;
Lexicanum wrote:Unlike most other chapters, the Black Templars don't have a homeworld. Eschewing the idea of one they opted to live aboard their crusade fleets.
These vary in size and are made up of dozens of Battle Barges, Strike Cruisers and other craft such as training vessels and huge forge ships. Given this fleet based nature, the Black Templars are rarely assembled as a Chapter, but are instead divided into many Crusades. Every Crusade being responsible for its own recruiting as well as training of new Neophytes.
The High Marshal himself has his own personal Battle Barge, the Eternal Crusader, a huge vessel that is the spiritual home of the entire Chapter and contains its most sacred relics, chapels, and reliquaries. It has been expanded and refitted many times and can currently hold twice as many Space Marines as a normal battle barge.
This flexible, mobile nature, allows the Templars to continue the first mission of the Black Templars: to actively seek out the enemies of the Emperor and destroy them before moving onwards to find the next foe.
So, as you rightly point out, their actual battlefield deployment isn't going to differ much from a Codex one, it's more the overall attitude and mindset that they practice I was getting at. For them, it's one, long, ongoing battle to claim the galaxy in the name of the Emperor. The Ultras, by comparison, are likely much more grounded in the "here and now" of the goings on in and around Ultramar.
That’s a rather lamentable piece of fluff written by Graham McNeill that makes little sense, considering that last Tyranid excursion after Behemoth in that general area was 250 years later with Hive Fleet Kraken. Thankfully the Tyranid War Hunters seem to be slowly being retconned out of the fluff of the FFG sourcebooks are any indication.
Lamentable or not, it's still there and it's still fairly common knowledge. Ergo, I'm not making things up or twisting things.
Anfauglir wrote:Lamentable or not, it's still there and it's still fairly common knowledge. Ergo, I'm not making things up or twisting things.
It’s a walking contradiction. The Ultramarines are stated to be the exemplars of the Codex Astartes and yet they specialize against a certain opponent. It would be like the Black Templars forming a special squad of Black Templar Librarians while maintaining they hate the witch.
But as I said before FFG has started to retcon it.
Banzaimash wrote:It's true, the BT's apparent lack of reconnaissance ability is one of their major flaws. Snipers can have massive sway over the way wars turn out, but they can also just as easily be made obsolete in certain situations. And fighting Astartes could be considered one of those situations, with them being so heavy armoured .etc. One could argue that snipers could hit their eye slits or joins in their armour, but in reality, would this really be an easy feat, and would they be able to withstand the return fire from a PA marine, who, with their helmet aiming gizmos, superior training and sensory enhancements would be able to return fire just as accurately, albeit with a less suited weapon. As for reconnaissance, although they may lack the potentially more accurate information provided by scouts, they can still use sensor arrays on their ships, in a similar way that Predator type drones are used today. So although the BT may lack as much reconnaissance as other SM chapters, they still have substantial amounts while they have air superiority (which is something that they have the ability to obtain in most situations).
If a lasgun can pierce their armor a sniper rifle can. Eye sensors don't mean much when I can hit you from a mile away. Armor again doesn't mean didly compared to even the rifles and ammo we use now. If I can shoot a man in an abram I bet I can pierce power armor. Your fluff armor wont save you from a bullet to the bridge of your nose or base of your skull. Superior training and all the bells and whistles don't make you bullet proof. You can run all you want you'll just die tired.
Lasguns can't pierce their armour (hence their AP-). Also, who will you be hitting from a mile away, when there's nothing but a wall of the most heavily armoured fighting vehicles rolling toward you ? Also, marines have actual PA as well as fluff armour protecting them, armour that needs balls of fiery plasma or an Earthshaker shell to penetrate. Sniper bullets/ darts won't make the grade I think. The likelyhood of shots like those you mentioned are represented by the snipers in game being rending, but just from that you can see that it's already unlikely. Add to this the fact that moving targets are pretty hard to hit .etc. it's already clear that snipers will have little effect. Besides, snipers won't be able to be fielded in force, considering that they are only able to be accessed by scout companies. And if a BT commander were to be killed, he'd swiftly be replaced by the next best Sword Brother. Helbrecht, who is the main BT strategist, would be sitting comfy (or not so comfy, depending on how good the enemy fleet is) in space, far from the reach of any sniper.
Banzaimash wrote:It's true, the BT's apparent lack of reconnaissance ability is one of their major flaws. Snipers can have massive sway over the way wars turn out, but they can also just as easily be made obsolete in certain situations. And fighting Astartes could be considered one of those situations, with them being so heavy armoured .etc. One could argue that snipers could hit their eye slits or joins in their armour, but in reality, would this really be an easy feat, and would they be able to withstand the return fire from a PA marine, who, with their helmet aiming gizmos, superior training and sensory enhancements would be able to return fire just as accurately, albeit with a less suited weapon. As for reconnaissance, although they may lack the potentially more accurate information provided by scouts, they can still use sensor arrays on their ships, in a similar way that Predator type drones are used today. So although the BT may lack as much reconnaissance as other SM chapters, they still have substantial amounts while they have air superiority (which is something that they have the ability to obtain in most situations).
If a lasgun can pierce their armor a sniper rifle can. Eye sensors don't mean much when I can hit you from a mile away. Armor again doesn't mean didly compared to even the rifles and ammo we use now. If I can shoot a man in an abram I bet I can pierce power armor. Your fluff armor wont save you from a bullet to the bridge of your nose or base of your skull. Superior training and all the bells and whistles don't make you bullet proof. You can run all you want you'll just die tired.
Lasguns can't pierce their armour (hence their AP-). Also, who will you be hitting from a mile away, when there's nothing but a wall of the most heavily armoured fighting vehicles rolling toward you ? Also, marines have actual PA as well as fluff armour protecting them, armour that needs balls of fiery plasma or an Earthshaker shell to penetrate. Sniper bullets/ darts won't make the grade I think. The likelyhood of shots like those you mentioned are represented by the snipers in game being rending, but just from that you can see that it's already unlikely. Add to this the fact that moving targets are pretty hard to hit .etc. it's already clear that snipers will have little effect. Besides, snipers won't be able to be fielded in force, considering that they are only able to be accessed by scout companies. And if a BT commander were to be killed, he'd swiftly be replaced by the next best Sword Brother. Helbrecht, who is the main BT strategist, would be sitting comfy (or not so comfy, depending on how good the enemy fleet is) in space, far from the reach of any sniper.
So youre using game rules for guns but book fluff for others? That a weak arguement. In the fluff lasguns can and have pierced pa. You are picking and choosing which you best think illustrates your point not a coherent stance. Moving targets are not hard to hit been there done that myself so Im sure sm scouts can as well if a lowly man can. The snipers affect is psycological and I can see you have no actual exp and just drink the cool aide. Big armored vehicles? You act lie itd be the sniper vs the entire bt army. You forget the REST of the army?
I understand the psychological effects of sniper fire, but it would do little against SM, except make them more angry. My main point is quite simply that when there are so many other easier ways of destroying a marine, sniper fire is hardly having the most impact next to artillery, plasma weaponry or even just bolters. As for my use of game rules as support for my argument, it is only because I've never read any BL books about guard fighting SM so the rules were the next best thing. It doesn't really weaken my argument, considering that the rules to a greater extent are representative of the fluff. With any argument you will use evidence that best supports your point (it would be trying to argue that lasguns can't penetrate PA, and then quoting a part in some BL book where an SM takes a las-shot to the chest and dies). Sure, I've not had experience shooting a sniper rifle at a moving target because funnily enough it's difficult to get hold of a sniper rifle and find a moving target that won't put you in jail if you hit it . As for when you were shooting a moving target, I presume it wasn't one of many angry marines with chainswords wearing power armour and fighting marines on your side?
Banzaimash wrote:but BT don't need them, as these only hinder their fighting style
Yeah, supporting and indirect fires have that awfully irritating tendency to cause enemies to keep their heads down while you charge. I can see how that would get in the way of the Black Templars' desires to die righteously and messily for the Emperor.
But to say that their more experienced has no grounds, considering that BT do more fighting (considering they actively go looking for fights as oppose to guarding their empire) and against a greater variety of foes.
That's an interesting, amusing, and wholly unsupportable statement, but I respect your right to say it.
Their fleet is more powerful by a long way than that of the Ultras, and so they'll have dominance over space.
I guess you haven't read anything that's been said about just how absurdly immense the fleet of the Ultramar Navy is. The Black Templars will have no such dominance and would be wholly unable to siege any of Ultramars planets. At least for very long.
Sure, the Ultras have human auxilaries aiding them, but do these really match up to 5 chapters worth of marines?
Given a 10-1 ratio, the Ultramarines need 50,000 PDF troopers to counter the Black Templars numerical advantage. Given the fact that the actual differential is probably more like 100-1 or more, yes, they match up, lol.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cain wrote:Ok a few things
First
No need to get hostile and take things personal.
I have no emotional investment in this argument. I've merely continued to state facts with a little bit of humor tossed in, because we're having an all-too-serious discussion about plastic toy soldiers and their imaginary equivalents.
Second
BT have the largest fleet and the best naval commander(you dont believe me then ask oh... i dont know all the chapter commanders on armageddon that agreed that Helbrect was to take charge in space and how many chapters was that?)
So the Black Templars had the largest fleet present at Armageddon. Check.
Third
Saying that BT have a higher percentage of neophytes is actually right, but think about it that means when they get their power armour they are all the better at what they do,
Unsupportable statement. Their standard of training is actually much lower. Merely surviving isn't the way to determine the quality of a recruit. Sure, the Marines who survive to become Initiates are probably Marines of a reasonable quality, but given that anybody can be killed by the "bullet with your name on it", a pool of recruits that suffers an extremely high casualty rate won't produce the best possible recruits, only the luckiest. Look at the incident that happend in the movie/book Black Hawk Down. The Delta Force operators present were amongst the best warrior on the planet, and yet five of them were killed by wacko militiamen high on khat, mostly shooting from the hip.
Fourth
Those of you who think BT couldint last in a protracted war are in LALA land, as i have stated before the BT would be the hardest chapter to annilate in the Galaxy simply BC of their chapter keeps their spread through out the galaxy which sounds to me like a pretty easy way to get more troops, all that would have to happen is go in to the Ultramar system glass their main recruiting planet in a lightening strike then all reinforcements GONE, where as the BT could have hundreds of ships from Hundeds of systems bringing fresh recruits on a constant basis and to top that off if the BT wanted to swell their chapter to crazy numbers it would not be outside their power to do so.
Now we're just getting silly. Sure, the Black Templars could "glass" Maccragge and ship truckoads of new Black Templars, but then they would have revealed their flagrant violation of Imperial Law and would be traitors, not unlike the Astral Claws. The only reason the Black Templars get away with their swollen ranks is that they are so widespread. Let's try and keep this discussion as theoretical. The second you try to start constructing combat models for it, we have to introduce a huge number of external variables.
Well i wasint stating that i was offended, i also agree with the all to serious about toy soldiers, and i disagree with that your not personally invested stating real life expirence with military, guess what man anyone can say that(i am not saying you dont) just that people always talk big behind a keyboard so lets just put it here and now brothers close the lips and be silent professionals, leave what you have done between you and your brothers.
I am not just saying they had the Largest fleet but the best commander thats why even Dante said he should be in charge of space at Armagedon, all Chapter Masters respect Helbrect for his ability to command a fleet.
Once again leave RL out of this conversation, relating BHD really??? Pretty sure that was a whole different scenario, and you even said wer'e playing toy soldiers, so you have to realize its a toy universe, which therefore makes any relation to try and make it seem like you could compare war now to a fake galaxy at war irrelevent.
I so love how you left out my fifth paragraph when quoting me makes me think you work for a news company leaving out details of what i said. I stated that OBVIOUSLY who ever attacked first would be labled a traitor and waxed by the rest of the Imperium. Also i clearly stated that i am not Biased to the BT i have a fond look for the Ultra actually, i am just stating that to kill all the templar would be alot harder as that you would have to search near almost every system in the galaxy for their keeps. I also clearly stated that the srtongest would most likley be the Imperial fists seeing as how they have Terra.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also to say BT don't have ranged capability bellow they have vindicators that can move all out and shoot, terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 men, and troop squads of five with heavy weapons, which means if you fully kitted the Templars which they do have the equipment to do then they would have more heavy weapons then an opponent of equal size, so just imagine having 6x more units as well as more firepower. YeS I understand they don't have snipers but, in the BT codex it even states the BT have 2 methods of attack DP and Armored column pretty sure sniping dosent matter when in a tank or when all the sudden dropping out of the sky in the thick of it.
Gree wrote:
It’s a walking contradiction. The Ultramarines are stated to be the exemplars of the Codex Astartes and yet they specialize against a certain opponent.
And? It's still there. They can still be exemplars of the Codex doctrine, and still be adapted and most experienced Chapter against a certain opponent. They're the most experienced fighting Tyranids because of geography, but that doesn't mean they're now "less" adapted in other areas. I'm not responsible for GW's notoriously contradictorary fluff entries, and I certainly won't be called a liar on their account.
Anfauglir wrote:
They can still be exemplars of the Codex doctrine, and still be adapted and most experienced Chapter against a certain opponent. They're the most experienced fighting Tyranids because of geology, but that doesn't mean they're now "less" adapted in other areas..
The moment you begin to specialize and devote more training and time to defeating one enemy you must logically devote less time to other enemies and becoming less on an all-rounder. Specializing against a certain enemy is the exact opposite of the Codex.
Anfauglir wrote:
I'm not responsible for GW's notoriously contradictorary fluff entries, and I certainly won't be called a liar on their account.
Banzaimash wrote:I understand the psychological effects of sniper fire, but it would do little against SM, except make them more angry. My main point is quite simply that when there are so many other easier ways of destroying a marine, sniper fire is hardly having the most impact next to artillery, plasma weaponry or even just bolters. As for my use of game rules as support for my argument, it is only because I've never read any BL books about guard fighting SM so the rules were the next best thing. It doesn't really weaken my argument, considering that the rules to a greater extent are representative of the fluff. With any argument you will use evidence that best supports your point (it would be trying to argue that lasguns can't penetrate PA, and then quoting a part in some BL book where an SM takes a las-shot to the chest and dies). Sure, I've not had experience shooting a sniper rifle at a moving target because funnily enough it's difficult to get hold of a sniper rifle and find a moving target that won't put you in jail if you hit it . As for when you were shooting a moving target, I presume it wasn't one of many angry marines with chainswords wearing power armour and fighting marines on your side?
Rules are not the same as the books or the fluff. lol Otherwise daemons, nids, csm and such would be a lot better.
So watching your friends head explode and not lmow where it came from isn't as imposing as a loud machine gun where you see nozzle flash? Hhhmm yea ok..
You are right it wasnt a sm, it was something considerably smaller. So I'd say it'd be easier to hit a pa marine. I don't see how angry marine matters since the person shooting him is also a sm.
Huh, probably going with the black templars here. They're swollen beyond most other chapters, plus, land raiders and junk.
Blood Angels are pretty powerful, what with their vroom vroom tanks and such, but the blood rage kind of equals them out. Plus, it seems like other chapters aren't too keen on them, or at least are wary.
Cain wrote:Well i wasint stating that i was offended, i also agree with the all to serious about toy soldiers, and i disagree with that your not personally invested stating real life expirence with military, guess what man anyone can say that(i am not saying you dont) just that people always talk big behind a keyboard so lets just put it here and now brothers close the lips and be silent professionals, leave what you have done between you and your brothers.
Thanks for your input. Got any helpful movie quotes too? Maybe explain to me how your trigger finger is your safety.
Regardless of your less than useful life advice, I fail to see how my explaining that somebody's tactical analysis is sorely lacking represents any kind of emotional investment.
Once again leave RL out of this conversation, relating BHD really??? Pretty sure that was a whole different scenario, and you even said wer'e playing toy soldiers, so you have to realize its a toy universe, which therefore makes any relation to try and make it seem like you could compare war now to a fake galaxy at war irrelevent.
So, what you're saying is leave out anything that doesn't support your argument. Fair enough. BHD was simply presenting a simple comparative analogy as an example of the concept of "a bullet with your name on it". Not trying to draw a direct parallel. It's having to break stuff like this down Teletubbie style like this that should give you less cause to wonder why I quickly tire of these arguments.
I so love how you left out my fifth paragraph when quoting me makes me think you work for a news company leaving out details of what i said.
Your fifth paragraph wasn't relevant to anything that I was discussing, just your random musings about other topics. There was no need to quote useless material and waste more page space than it already took up the first time.
Also to say BT don't have ranged capability bellow they have vindicators that can move all out and shoot, terminators with 2 heavy weapons per 5 men, and troop squads of five with heavy weapons, which means if you fully kitted the Templars which they do have the equipment to do then they would have more heavy weapons then an opponent of equal size, so just imagine having 6x more units as well as more firepower. YeS I understand they don't have snipers but, in the BT codex it even states the BT have 2 methods of attack DP and Armored column pretty sure sniping dosent matter when in a tank or when all the sudden dropping out of the sky in the thick of it.
Black Templars lack significant long ranged capability. Vindis are short range. Metagame rules exploitations are as silly and pointless as combat models, so let's leave them out. In that case, Codex Space Marines can have four heavy weapons per five man Devastator squad, leading to 24 heavy weapons per FOC as opposed to 18 for the Black Templars.
Really, in the end, admitting that the Black Templars only have two viable methods of attack, Drop Pos and Armored Column is to essentially admit their severe strategic and tactical shortcomings. Not every battlefield scenario is going to make those options viable. What do the Black Templars do when they can't use them? Surely their Crusades are going to bring them across targets that are protected (naturally or artificially) against those forms of assault. Then what do they do? Fire up the drives and move on to the next system?
In the end, I have a more serious question: If you don't think the Black Templars are more powerful than the Ultramarines, then why are you perpetuating this argument? Nobody suggested the Black Templars were weak or worthless. Only that their strengths were overstated compared to those of the Ultramarines. There's a reason that the boys in blue been called "The Greatest of the Space Marine Chapters" since 1995. The quicker the Black Templar supporters in this thread divorce themselves from investment in the conversation, the quicker the core arguments will become clear.
Gree wrote:
And still contradicted by the main fluff we have.
Being a contradiction doesn't remove it. I'm not even sure how much of a contradiction it really is. Point remains: Ultras fluff focuses more on nids than any other enemy type (as far as I'm aware, anyone better read on Ultras feel free to jump in here), whereas BT fluff states how their hatred of all three of the Imperiums enemies drives them to seek out and destroy them all. Thus, the point around which my comment was based (the context of which has now become rather lost on this roundabout), is a perfectly valid one. The notion that the BTs battle a more varied selection of foes on a more regular basis than the Ultras is not as unsupported a viewpoint as was stated in the post to which I replied.
The moment you begin to specialize and devote more training and time to defeating one enemy you must logically devote less time to other enemies and becoming less on an all-rounder. Specializing against a certain enemy is the exact opposite of the Codex.
Saying that the Ultras are the most experienced Chapter at facing the nids is not the same as saying the Ultras are a specialised Chapter. What do you suggest they do? Refrain from being the best they can against the nid swarms, potentially allowing the Hive Fleets to push beyond the Ultima Segmentum, just because they're not logging as many hours on their return-fire ranges, or their attendance to their "ten best ways to identify cultist behaviour in humans" seminars is dropping? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the strengths of the codex astartes is that it allows the Marines to be a flexible, adaptable force able to counter any situation? Anyway, once more, my point stands: I never said the Ultras were a specialised Chapter, I said they were most known to focuse on fighting the nids.
When did I call you a liar?
You didn't. Trace mine and your posts back in order to regain the context.
I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.
Thatguy91 wrote:I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.
Then what is a good basis? By your logic there is no way to then explain 2 military forces coliding. Can't use bl as each author has a different enterpretation, can't use codex rules so what exactly is a viable option then?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Regardless of your less than useful life advice, I fail to see how my explaining that somebody's tactical analysis is sorely lacking represents any kind of emotional investment.
How is me explaining that not covering your advancing troops with long range and/or heavy ordnance being a bad idea representative of "sorely lacking tactical analysis"
Black Templars lack significant long ranged capability.
According to whom (you see, it's for comments like this that citations are helpful ) Those extra six (wow, a whopping extra amount ) heavy weapons on a squad level won't count for much when the BTs outnumber the Ultras on a much more significant Chapter level.
Thatguy91 wrote:I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.
Then what is a good basis? By your logic there is no way to then explain 2 military forces coliding. Can't use bl as each author has a different enterpretation, can't use codex rules so what exactly is a viable option then?
Thats My point. You cant. There is no way you could compare the two as the only similarity between the two is organisation. There is a reason why there is no GW sanctioned "most powerful chapter", it would make the Fluff boring and everyone would play that chapter. Ultramarines might be the epitomy of a codex adhering chapter, following it to the letter in almost every way possible and upholding the beliefs of Girlyman fanatically. That has never made them a stronger chapter in battle, atleast not to My knowledge.
Thatguy91 wrote:I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.
Then what is a good basis? By your logic there is no way to then explain 2 military forces coliding. Can't use bl as each author has a different enterpretation, can't use codex rules so what exactly is a viable option then?
Thats My point. You cant. There is no way you could compare the two as the only similarity between the two is organisation. There is a reason why there is no GW sanctioned "most powerful chapter", it would make the Fluff boring and everyone would play that chapter. Ultramarines might be the epitomy of a codex adhering chapter, following it to the letter in almost every way possible and upholding the beliefs of Girlyman fanatically. That has never made them a stronger chapter in battle, atleast not to My knowledge.
That is the point.
Then you shouldn't post on this thread because guess what thats what people are doing. lol If you feel it can't then don't participate otherwise it's gettin close to a pointless troll.
Anfauglir wrote:
Being a contradiction doesn't remove it.
Yes it does. We have two versions of Ultramarines fluff now. One in which they are strict followers of the Codex and one in which they are not.
Anfauglir wrote:
Point remains: Ultras fluff focuses more on nids than any other enemy type (as far as I'm aware, anyone better read on Ultras feel free to jump in here), whereas BT fluff states how their hatred of all three of the Imperiums enemies drives them to seek out and destroy them all. Thus, the point around which my comment was based (the context of which has now become rather lost on this roundabout), is a perfectly valid one. The notion that the BTs battle a more varied selection of foes on a more regular basis than the Ultras is not as unsupported a viewpoint as was stated in the post to which I replied.
No, one aspect of Ultramarine fluff says that, other aspects don’t’ and contradict that.
But your assertion that the Templars fight a more varied selection of foes because the Ultramarines focus on Tyranids is really unsupported by the timeline. There are 250 years between Behemoth and Kraken.
Anfauglir wrote:
Saying that the Ultras are the most experienced Chapter at facing the nids is not the same as saying the Ultras are a specialised Chapter.
But that is how they are presented in the original Tyranid Hunters article, as specialists. And it has always been a disgrace and contrary to the Chapter's fundamental background. What does every Ultramarines description prior and after the introduction of the Tyrannic War Veterans say? That they follow their Primarch's Codex Astartes to the letter and would never deviate from it. What do the two sources on Tyrannic War Veterans say? That the Tyrannic War Veterans are seen as a deviation from the Codex Astartes, but for contrived and asinine reasons were accepted none-the less. Thankfully the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines has not included them as aspecial unit anymore.
Anfauglir wrote:
What do you suggest they do? Refrain from being the best they can against the nid swarms, potentially allowing the Hive Fleets to push beyond the Ultima Segmentum, just because they're not logging as many hours on their return-fire ranges, or their attendance to their "ten best ways to identify cultist behaviour in humans" seminars is dropping? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't one of the strengths of the codex astartes is that it allows the Marines to be a flexible, adaptable force able to counter any situation? Anyway, once more, my point stands: I never said the Ultras were a specialised Chapter, I said they were most known to focuse on fighting the nids.
The problem is that the background for the Tyrannic War Veterans is a horrible piece of writing. The Codex is amended constantly, so incorporating anti-tyranid tactics in the daily training routine would have been perfectly fine. Where the Codex disagrees is in the specialization of units, or even entire companies, in fighting one particular enemy. That would make those units or companies worse at fighting all the other foes. A unit that specializes in fighting Tyranids specifically would not be as adapt at fighting Orks or Traitor Marines as regular units would be, as they would have focused their training.
Actually both the 4th Edition and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, while both refering to the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex, both also state at some point how the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter or how they are the paragon of all Codex Chapters over the Imperial Fists. So both Codices really included two contradicting elements, one of them traditional, one of them new. They cannot both be correct, so I guess it is up to the individual player whether he wants "progressive" Ultramarines with new invented special units or traditional fully Codex adherent Ultramarines.
Draigo, its a forum. I am merely stating my opinion. That is the point of a forum. If you dont like it then perhaps you shouldnt be part of one.
GW has never given us a definite "most powerful chapter", therefore it is all up to personal opinion, not canon. Basically the answer to the OPs question is whatever chapter you want it to be.
Gree wrote:
The problem is that the background for the Tyrannic War Veterans is a horrible piece of writing. The Codex is amended constantly, so incorporating anti-tyranid tactics in the daily training routine would have been perfectly fine. Where the Codex disagrees is in the specialization of units, or even entire companies, in fighting one particular enemy. That would make those units or companies worse at fighting all the other foes. A unit that specializes in fighting Tyranids specifically would not be as adapt at fighting Orks or Traitor Marines as regular units would be, as they would have focused their training.
Actually both the 4th Edition and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, while both refering to the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex, both also state at some point how the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter or how they are the paragon of all Codex Chapters over the Imperial Fists. So both Codices really included two contradicting elements, one of them traditional, one of them new. They cannot both be correct, so I guess it is up to the individual player whether he wants "progressive" Ultramarines with new invented special units or traditional fully Codex adherent Ultramarines.
Ah. It seems you may have misinterpreted my argument. I'm not promoting this "Tyrannic War Veterans" thing, where Ultras deviate from the codex in order to specialise, as the correct piece of Ultras fluff. I've not read it. All I'm basing my points on is what I do know about the Ultras and the nids: they, and their realm of Ultramar, is on the Eastern Fringe and was the focal point of the first Tyranic War, where the Ultras fought on their home planet against Hive Fleet Behemoth. Of course they weren't alone, but it was basically down to them and their efforts that Behemoth was stopped. Now, as far as I'm aware, there's nothing in the fluff that contradicts the Ultras primary association with the nids, both over other Chapters and over other foes. That's it. That's all I'm saying. Therefore, like I said, just because I'm saying they are the most experienced Chapter at fighting the nids, and are tangled up in fighting them more than other Chapters (again, down to basic geography), that doesn't mean I'm saying they are specialised or deviant from the codex. If I'm wrong on any of those points, for example if the Ultras are involved with other galactic-wide events and campaigns that outweigh the Tyranic Wars, or there are other Chapters with more experience against them, then please feel free to jump in.
Anfauglir wrote:How is me explaining that not covering your advancing troops with long range and/or heavy ordnance being a bad idea representative of "sorely lacking tactical analysis"
I didn't say you were completely wrong. I said that your analysis was "incomplete". You understand the basic concepts, just not the practical application of those ideas. I understand the principles behind how bridges are built. I wouldn't be able to actually build one.
Black Templars lack significant long ranged capability.
According to whom
I guess it would be the lack of Whirlwinds. Or the lack of dedicated man-portable heavy weapons teams. Again, it's not a lack of any heavy weapons. Just the lack of significant (it's getting kinda pathetic that I have to use so many italics just to ensure you guys actually read and think about what I post instead of skimming them, and then banging on your keyboards and hoping for the best) flexible options for them. I mean, there's a severe disconnect between the idea that squads of initiates could be doled out in small numbers to facilitate the deployment of heavy weapons, and the idea that they don't have Devastators because it would be dishonorable. Why would the Black Templars have these small teams if their sole purpose was dishonorable? They're conflicting ideas. In the end, the Battle Company has access to the same vehicles as the Black Templars Fighting Company What the Black Templars don't have is any kind of real organization, no small unit leaders (sergeants) have no dedicated squads to put down a base of fire or eliminate enemy vehicles aside from their own vehicles (which begs the question of how they handle this in situations where they are drop pod assaulting and come across vehicles they didn't just land right next to, no?). They simply have numbers and a complete lack of common sense (which might work to their advantage in some cases).
Thatguy91 wrote:
Draigo wrote:
Thatguy91 wrote:I like how people compare their combat experiance to that of the 40k setting... Feels like more of a failed arguement though guy statement than anything else. I have military experience but you dont see me comparing My training and knowledge with that of a SM in the 41st millenia. The fact remains that personal opinion and experience counts for nothing in 40k. It is a piece of fictional scifi writing, not the real world.
Then what is a good basis? By your logic there is no way to then explain 2 military forces coliding. Can't use bl as each author has a different enterpretation, can't use codex rules so what exactly is a viable option then?
Thats My point. You cant. There is no way you could compare the two as the only similarity between the two is organisation. There is a reason why there is no GW sanctioned "most powerful chapter", it would make the Fluff boring and everyone would play that chapter. Ultramarines might be the epitomy of a codex adhering chapter, following it to the letter in almost every way possible and upholding the beliefs of Girlyman fanatically. That has never made them a stronger chapter in battle, atleast not to My knowledge.
That is the point.
The good news is, it's okay that your knowledge of 40K fluff isn't very expansive. The Ultramarines have been called the "Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" for almost twenty years. I guess that doesn't specifically say that they're a stronger chapter in battle, but it would be pretty silly to suggest otherwise.
If your military experience being irrelevant to the discussion, that's fine. Not everyone in the military has training and experience in a combat, or even direct combat support role. I mean, guys in the Air Force or Navy (blah blah Navy SEALs) can claim to have been military. My experience as a Marine... A little more hands on. It doesn't make me better than anyone here. It just has offered me specialized insight for analysis when it comes to discussions like this. It's certainly not a scope of knowledge to be ashamed of. This forum should be so lucky as to have someone like me around, even if from time to time my patience with certain demographics is somewhat limited. The bitter reactions of other posters when they realize they've entered into a discussion they aren't qualified to participate in is not my concern. /shrug
I dont know everything but I know a fair bit. It suggests but it doesnt literally say ULTRAMAHREENZ R THE BEZTZZ! There are alot of suggestive pieces of fluff but it is not concrete. It doesnt matter if you have had combat experience or not, it is completely irrelevant in this discussion as none of us has any experience in the 40k universe. Thats what im trying to say. It doesnt matter if you are a marine, or some special ops dude or a french foreign legionnaire or a member of the spetsnaz. Your not an Imperial guardsman or a Space marine which makes all that useless, more or less.
I mean honestly, we dont even have all time info. If a proper analysis was to be made of the 40k space marines combat effectiveness we would need alot more information than what is given in books and game rules. If we had that additional information, then perhaps experience and knowledge from modern day soldiers could be useful to compare and evaluate. But we dont unfortunately. Atleast thats how I see it.
I never said it is anything to be ashamed of, I just said that in this particular discussion I think it is irrelevant.
The collected philosophies of Sun Tzu are hundreds of years old, written at a time when military technology was a faction of what it is today. And yet his teachings are still studied and adapted today.
War doesn't fundamentally change, son. The core concepts remain the same. What was true then is true now will be true 38000 years from now. Dismissing that is a callous, cowardly, and cheap way to escape an argument you can't win.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The collected philosophies of Sun Tzu are hundreds of years old, written at a time when military technology was a faction of what it is today. And yet his teachings are still studied and adapted today.
War doesn't fundamentally change, son. The core concepts remain the same. What was true then is true now will be true 38000 years from now. Dismissing that is a callous, cowardly, and cheap way to escape an argument you can't win.
That might be true in a normal setting but this is sci-fi. Its fictional. You cant apply reality to fiction and expect something that makes sense. Hell, I'm not even sure that sentence made sense!
War hasn't changed all that much because the environment hasn't changed all that much. Add space aliens, FTL travel, genetically modified bad asses, combat in zero gravity, fighting on other planets, daemons and undead machines from outer space and I think you will find that the way war is fought would change quite dramatically, son.
Further I wasnt trying to win or create an arguement, I was putting forward an opinion, and I stand by it. To think that you can compare modern warfare with that of the 40k universe is downright silly in my opinion.
War might never change, but the way it is fought changes dramatically.
You can discuss tactics by which they implement their weapons and resources. No one is discussing the physics of how a bolter works. But most of the weapons etc are based on a rl counterpart so yes we can discuss it since tactics and the psychology of how the IoM operates is NOT unique to fantasy. IG have many things in common with Russia during ww2 using inferior tech but having tons of bodies. Sayin its that abstract is ridiculous.
The fluff writers based things on real world to make it have a sense of realism. That's how a writer makes a good story of an established reality. We aren't discussing robots or space elves. We're discussing humans which we can relate to.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If your military experience being irrelevant to the discussion, that's fine. Not everyone in the military has training and experience in a combat, or even direct combat support role. I mean, guys in the Air Force or Navy (blah blah Navy SEALs) can claim to have been military. My experience as a Marine... A little more hands on. It doesn't make me better than anyone here. It just has offered me specialized insight for analysis when it comes to discussions like this. It's certainly not a scope of knowledge to be ashamed of. This forum should be so lucky as to have someone like me around, even if from time to time my patience with certain demographics is somewhat limited. The bitter reactions of other posters when they realize they've entered into a discussion they aren't qualified to participate in is not my concern. /shrug
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The collected philosophies of Sun Tzu are hundreds of years old, written at a time when military technology was a faction of what it is today. And yet his teachings are still studied and adapted today.
War doesn't fundamentally change, son. The core concepts remain the same. What was true then is true now will be true 38000 years from now. Dismissing that is a callous, cowardly, and cheap way to escape an argument you can't win.
Just wow...you are so right man, you are totally the only one who has seen war its not like there hasent been thousands of people who have seen war(oh wait I forgot you knew everyone who has seen battle and you know their online names my bad), you are totally right and we should all bow down before you because you are the elite of the elite, I am so sorry I ever said we shouldint talk about our military expirences just because thats the right thing to do, diddn't know we needed to toot our own hornes over a table top game. So LIKE I SAID BEFORE lets be Professionals because thats what your supposed to be did you join the service to boast about your deeds, wait you probally did do it for the recognition thats why you have to keep reitterating it. I am done hearing real life stuff we are talking about SPACE MARINES!!!!!!!
The future humans still have to fight with or against them. Which means they are part of the equation. We can start a new thread if you wanna discuss it? We are kinda heading off topic here..
Also, im kinda on Cains side here. Enough is enough.
As for saying the BT dont have adequate training befor ethey get their PA, they still have to go through the maturisation process just like any other marine. They still have to learn to do everything just like any other marine, they just put more focus in to CC b/c they prefer to follow the way of Sigisimund their founder and that was to close with the enemy and punish them face to face. And to say Ultra is best because they are the Poster Boys then wow... yea their great but a true comparison as to whoever is strongest will never be known, as i have said before they are all loyalist and thats not about to change so as you could say they are equal because they would fight side by side till the last marine died to defend the imperium. So on that note I am done arguing with people who think that(for some unknown reason) they know something the rest of the 40k community dosen't. And just for the sake of argument and because i can CRIMSON FISTS ARE STRONGEST WITH THEIR 300 OR SO MARINES!!!!
That the 4th ompany captain doesn't fully like the codex is one thing, the entire army the other.
Ultras have tons of experience against many foes. I do believe the Ultramarines series to be canon due to tons of references in the codex (in the timeline, chapter build-up, and so on)
Oh, and BT doesn't have only scouts you say. I see no devastators, land speeder storms, whirlwinds, thunderfire cannons, librarians.....
the dark angels might actually be, they utilized a loop hole in the terms of the codex astartes and are still technically a legion with Azrael as the supreme grand master of all thier forces. lets also not forget they have a death star
The power base of the Ultramarines is staggeringly larger than the Black Templars, and more cohesive. I understand that a lot of people dislike the Ultramarines for a variety of absurd and poorly supported reasons. But hating them doesn't change the facts. Really, it's important to understand that your favorite color of toy soldiers doesn't have to be the best for you to enjoy them and their fluff. Heck, look at all the Crimson Fists players (they blew themselves up, 
I don't know what point you're making here. But what I do know is that the 