So they can fire either large template strength 10 AP 2 large blast at 32", or small blast strength 10 AP 1 +1d6 AP. That's just phenominal, especially the small blast one. That must be the highest Armour Penetration value for a ranged weapon in the game? 10+2d6, you'd need a 4 to glance a land raider...woah. Or even half strength you'd need a 9, which isn't impossible.
Downsides are kind of obvious, they're pretty fragile. Not sure if it would be worth +30 points for camo netting but probably not. You'd probably need three of them to really do some damage, and you'd need a mech wall of chimeras/hellhounds to distract enemy AV.
Problem is I only have about 4-5 vehicles available to me to proxy (well 2 leman russes, a demolisher, a chimera, and 1-3 rhinos/predators, depending on what my enemy is using) so that's not really feasable.
Maybe if I had a couple of Leman Russes with some AV 14 to soak up some shots, and Medusas would almost definitely be in cover (firing indirectly to deny enemy cover saves).
I really need the opinion of someone with experience of using these badboys to give some feedback.

They can't pick between the shells. If you upgrade to the melta shot, you lose the large blast option.

The downside is the same as any single shot weapon: chance to miss + chance to make cover save.

Ahhh that makes more sense. Still, Strength 10 ordinance isn't exactly shoddy at penetrating armour.
Cover save can be negated by firing indirectly. You decrease the chance of hitting slightly (by how much depends on how big the enemy vehicle is), but by eliminating the enemy cover save you're improving your chances of damaging it by 50%.

Medusas also can't fire indirectly. The gun isn't barrage, so it'll generally be more exposed to enemy fire.

Lewa2321 wrote:Medusas also can't fire indirectly. The gun isn't barrage, so it'll generally be more exposed to enemy fire.

Beat me to it.

I've run medusa's, and I love them, I just stopped because their main target, land raiders, are getting rarer.

Also, for only slightly more, you can take a CCS with meltas in a valkyrie. It's more durable, more reliable, and looks cooler.

Lewa2321 wrote:Medusas also can't fire indirectly. The gun isn't barrage, so it'll generally be more exposed to enemy fire.

Polonius wrote:

Lewa2321 wrote:Medusas also can't fire indirectly. The gun isn't barrage, so it'll generally be more exposed to enemy fire.

Beat me to it.

I've run medusa's, and I love them, I just stopped because their main target, land raiders, are getting rarer.

Also, for only slightly more, you can take a CCS with meltas in a valkyrie. It's more durable, more reliable, and looks cooler.

So it's 135 points for an open-topped demolisher with 12/10/10 with +12" range...that makes a lot more sense.
Seems that was the "catch" i was looking for.

If you can see a Medusa, as their name implies, you're already dead. Take a Bastion Breacher and the gun will practically never miss. With even the edge of the template hitting a Rhino, the weapon will still penetrate on average. I did the calcs a long time ago, and I believe the accuracy was over 85%. It's got about the same accuracy against larger chassis. It will always hit, it will always penetrate, and it'll wreck them half the time after that.

Don't bother with the Demolisher though. Might as well take a Russ at that point. And don't take any other upgrades either. The 48" range and low profile should keep you safe.

Medusas were a key part of the original "leafblower" list that won 'ard Boyz back in 2009:

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/09/40k-ard-boys-armylist-leafblower.html

Darkwynn took enclosed crew compartment and camo, but his army was mostly static (I'd want to move my medusas around, and that negates the camo) and IIRC he admitted he took enclosed crew because he like the models better.

Maybe with the rise of necrons & quantum shielding, we might see medusas make a bit of a comeback.

Also, terminators, MCs and characters. I personally use the large rounds for taking that kind of thing out. With BS 3 a shot will scatter an average of 3". Nothing get armour saves.

Drawbacks: they are a little fragile, so you need to support them properly.

Joey wrote:So it's 135 points for an open-topped demolisher with 12/10/10 with +12" range...that makes a lot more sense.
Seems that was the "catch" i was looking for.

Right, for only 30 more points, you get a demolisher which comes with MUCH better armor, and can take more firepower options.

Of course, once you get to demolishers...

DarkHound wrote:Don't bother with the Demolisher though. Might as well take a Russ at that point.

Which means that you're looking to have a flimsier version of a vehicle that you should already pass over in favor of a different vehicle.

Of course, I'll reiterate, you circumvent all those problems by just taking the Bastion Breacher upgrade. That makes the platform unique and useful.

DarkHound wrote:That makes the platform unique and useful.

1 shot, BS3, doesn't ignore cover. It may be unique, but that doesn't make it useful.

Plus, you've still got to have the hole over. It doesn't matter against rhinos (except for that turn when they pop smoke when they're still hard to kill), but if you're bringing a 140 point vehicle just to pick off 35 point boxes in the first couple of turns, you're doing something wrong.

While I agree in the specific (medusas are overkill against rhinos) that's only because medusas are less good than many cheaper options are much better at popping rhinos.

Using a 120 point unit to pop a 35 point rhino is rarely the point. It's using a 120 point unit to dramaticaly reduce a ~200pt unit's threat radius and durability.

Agreed with Ailaros. Sadly I'm finding the single-shot Russes and Artillery less and less useful. And I love my Demolishers....but 165 points for a single shot that only hits about 44 of the time (1/3 chance to hit plus lets say the odds of getting a scatter 2 inches or less to cause real damage). I mean....the S10 AP2 is great.

But that's a hell of an investment for less than a 50% chance to hit something.

Now the multiple-shot ones like Exterminators, Executioners, Hydras, and Manticores (Punishers don't count)....I'm really starting to lean that direction.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote:That makes the platform unique and useful.

1 shot, BS3, doesn't ignore cover. It may be unique, but that doesn't make it useful.

Plus, you've still got to have the hole over. It doesn't matter against rhinos (except for that turn when they pop smoke when they're still hard to kill), but if you're bringing a 140 point vehicle just to pick off 35 point boxes in the first couple of turns, you're doing something wrong.

I think DarkHound already made the point (and I didn't realize this either, not having used medusas) that you don't have to have the hole over. A partial hit is still str5 +2d6 and AP 1. That means an average hit that scatters partly off will still pen AR11 more than half the time--and it's AP1. A demolisher cannon can't really compare to that.

Killing rhinos in the first couple of turns is a really good thing for guard armies to do--regardless of how much those rhinos cost--because of the huge impact early kills on rhinos has on the later game.

Nungunz wrote:Now the multiple-shot ones like Exterminators, Executioners, Hydras, and Manticores (Punishers don't count)....I'm really starting to lean that direction.

Punishers do count. Try them. I like them either in pairs or with HBs. You'll force wound allocation on full MEQs, rip apart small squads, practically ignore cover, and vaporize hordes.

Ailaros wrote:1 shot, BS3, doesn't ignore cover. It may be unique, but that doesn't make it useful.

Plus, you've still got to have the hole over. It doesn't matter against rhinos (except for that turn when they pop smoke when they're still hard to kill), but if you're bringing a 140 point vehicle just to pick off 35 point boxes in the first couple of turns, you're doing something wrong.

Medusa has about 4" of room to keep even part of the template on, making the accuracy 71.3%. Only 10.8% of that is S5 (the rest automatically penetrates), so 58% of that 10.8 will penetrate. The total chance of hitting and penetrating is 66.8 (it glances a further 1.5%). The stats are pretty much the same all the way up to AV14, trading penetration for accuracy. It'll kill literally any tank in the game half the time from across the board. If that isn't useful, I don't know what is.

In my experience Warhammer 40k is not won by leveling equal points and hoping for a favorable outcome. Warhammer 40k is won by applying 1500 points again 500 and knowing you'll destroy it.

Yes, but saying that medusa are good against rhinos is like saying that lascannons are good against hordes. I mean, just look at it, S9 is guaranteed to wound any horde model on a 2+, and it won't even get an armor save!

What we're talking about here is a consolation prize, not a real perk.

Right, the consolation prize being it kills Rhinos. The perk being it kills Landraiders at a higher rate than anything else in the game.

Agree with Darkhound and Flavius.

DarkHound wrote:Right, the consolation prize being it kills Rhinos. The perk being it kills Landraiders at a higher rate than anything else in the game.

People use Landraiders?

I'm still really not seeing it.

Best case, you get first turn and get to shoot a rhino that you've still got to hit, and still need to roll on the top half of the damage chart. If you go second, though, you've now got to hit, and your opponent just cut that half of a half in half again with smoke. That or your opponent actually saw it as a threat and shot at it. Even a shaken result would be good enough to keep a rhino alive till it dropped its cargo. Seriously, it's 140 points of awful in this role.

It's like saying "well, my opponent only brought land raiders and ironclads, but at least my autocannons can glance a dread to death, isn't that great?"

Really, the medusa has exactly 1 role - shooting at really expensive vehicles that have no access to cover. That's a pretty niche role, and it doesn't to much outside of that. It's overspecialized.

... and even then, you're talking about that land raider blowing smoke and surviving a turn out in the open and then the next turn assault ramp multi-charging thunder hammer terminators. Medusas just can't kill things reliably FAST enough.

So, really, we're talking about really expensive units with no access to cover, and also aren't transports. That list is pretty darn short.

Oh yes, the Medusa's primary target should be the highest point vehicle on the field. Killing a Medusa before it gets to shoot is a little tough because you can deploy it out of LoS. However, Landraiders aren't the only hard armor in the game. Virtually every Necron vehicle is AV13. Predators and Vindicators are also prime targets that won't want to use Smoke. Any armor that is durable and on the other edge of the board is a prime candidate for the Medusa, and they're not an uncommon feature.

Ailaros wrote:I'm still really not seeing it.

Best case, you get first turn and get to shoot a rhino that you've still got to hit, and still need to roll on the top half of the damage chart. If you go second, though, you've now got to hit, and your opponent just cut that half of a half in half again with smoke. That or your opponent actually saw it as a threat and shot at it. Even a shaken result would be good enough to keep a rhino alive till it dropped its cargo. Seriously, it's 140 points of awful in this role.

It's like saying "well, my opponent only brought land raiders and ironclads, but at least my autocannons can glance a dread to death, isn't that great?"

Really, the medusa has exactly 1 role - shooting at really expensive vehicles that have no access to cover. That's a pretty niche role, and it doesn't to much outside of that. It's overspecialized.

... and even then, you're talking about that land raider blowing smoke and surviving a turn out in the open and then the next turn assault ramp multi-charging thunder hammer terminators. Medusas just can't kill things reliably FAST enough.

So, really, we're talking about really expensive units with no access to cover, and also aren't transports. That list is pretty darn short.

Why would I be shooting my Medusa at a Rhino? I have plenty of other things to do that with.
I would feel that a Rhino would be lower on the food chain. Meaning I'm shooting ACs and lascannons
at it first. If I shoot at a LR first I'm using a Manticore, or in this case a Medusa, first.

Again it boils down to you don't like it, or don't see a need for it, to be exact. Others do. I feel like
you're trying to talk people out of something based on your preference. And I'm not saying you're wrong
for your take. It's just not the only one.

Ailaros wrote:
Really, the medusa has exactly 1 role - shooting at really expensive vehicles that have no access to cover. That's a pretty niche role, and it doesn't to much outside of that. It's overspecialized.

Or terminators on the ground. Or mega-nobs. Or a whole squad of kans. Or MCs. Or a whole squad of tac marines.

If you're using the the small blast against Rhinos, you immobilize them on a 3+. That's a 2/3 chance to make them mostly useless.

Seriously, meganobz.

I've found the medusa has a wide variety of uses, and is very versatile on the field. Other may have differing opinions.

I would rather have a leman russ demolisher. The better armor is why. Not much can hurt av 14 at range. Theyre the tip of my mechinized spear.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I would rather have a leman russ demolisher. The better armor is why. Not much can hurt av 14 at range. Theyre the tip of my mechinized spear.

Except, Ironically, the vehicle we're discussing.

just to be fair, the demolisher was brought up as a vehicle this was supposed to replace or vice versa and people were then saying you might as well take a LR battle cannon version anyway so I can see a discussion point about this.

Personally I still like the demolisher but it's just me. Shooty armies just don't like the demolisher. Assault armies don't really care about either. You do save 30 points with the medusa though but risk alot more stunned/shakens due to AV 14 vs 12 though higher range! I personally shall try out said medusa in a future game or two to make my own opinions though I currently run the demolisher and I feel that they 2 units would behave very differently. PPL shoot at artillery. They tend to avoid Av14 tanks so more of my vet squads eat it.

At least where I play, there is a lot of ranged AT and long range template weapons to deal with. Medusa's need line of sight. They tend to get off one shot if you go first, none if you go second. Now, if you have multiple threats in your army forcing target selection decisions by your opponent (and if you don't , you're doing it wrong) then they may survive a bit longer. The last time I played someone who ran them, I went after them first because I figured they would be a nearly sure kill. And they were, iirc they went down to one well-planned (read: lucky) Manticore shot. They never fired.

IMHO, Chimera platforms need to be on the move or hiding. I use the Chimera itself, Hellhound variants, and the Manticore. All my other tanks are Russ variants.

On a side note, interesting post about the much maligned Punisher. I play a league game against 'Nids in a couple of weeks. I might consider putting the punisher cannon barrel on my demolishers... Probably material for a different thread.

BB

Medusae are very cool, the problem is that A) they're open topped, B) they're one weapon-destroyed away from being a self-propelled heavy flamer, and C) they require LOS so they're more vulnerable and suffer heavily from immobilized results.

They're indirectly competing with Hydras and directly competing with Manticores, which are not open-topped, don't suffer from an immobilized result, can fire indirectly and at longer range, and are far less vulnerable.

alarmingrick wrote:Again it boils down to you don't like it, or don't see a need for it, to be exact. Others do. I feel like
you're trying to talk people out of something based on your preference.

So, I like to believe that every unit in a codex is worth taking, even if you need to warp the rest of your list to make it playable. Obviously, this isn't exactly true (I mean, look at chaos spawn...), but my skepticism here is being used to figure out what they're actually good for in the codex. So far, the reasons for taking them seem to boil down to things that other units can do quite a bit better or for cheaper, or are based on perfect-case scenarios (like always hitting, and never having cover).

I'm trying to figure out what makes them special, not what makes them worth fielding if you ignore math or pretend like you don't have other options.

I think another way to frame this discussion is to compare it to the vanquisher. Both of them are a single-shot BS3 gun that doesn't ignore cover, and that gets a +D6. Nobody takes the vanquisher, because its firepower is awful. Suddenly, though, when you put that vanquisher cannon on an AV12 chassis it becomes good?

I mean, at least the vanquisher is likely to get a couple of shots off, what with its AV14, unlike the medusa which is going to get one shot off and then get blown to kingdom come (or stun locked, or weapon destroyed, or, or, or...).

The vindicator and the medusa are only superficially identical.

The medusa is more accurate, can cause damage with far scatters against tight packed armies, is AP1, is S10, and has a blast option for non-armor.

Ailaros wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:Again it boils down to you don't like it, or don't see a need for it, to be exact. Others do. I feel like
you're trying to talk people out of something based on your preference.

So, I like to believe that every unit in a codex is worth taking, even if you need to warp the rest of your list to make it playable. Obviously, this isn't exactly true (I mean, look at chaos spawn...), but my skepticism here is being used to figure out what they're actually good for in the codex. So far, the reasons for taking them seem to boil down to things that other units can do quite a bit better or for cheaper, or are based on perfect-case scenarios (like always hitting, and never having cover).

I'm trying to figure out what makes them special, not what makes them worth fielding if you ignore math or pretend like you don't have other options.

I think another way to frame this discussion is to compare it to the vanquisher. Both of them are a single-shot BS3 gun that doesn't ignore cover, and that gets a +D6. Nobody takes the vanquisher, because its firepower is awful. Suddenly, though, when you put that vanquisher cannon on an AV12 chassis it becomes good?

I mean, at least the vanquisher is likely to get a couple of shots off, what with its AV14, unlike the medusa which is going to get one shot off and then get blown to kingdom come (or stun locked, or weapon destroyed, or, or, or...).

Again, which is your opinion. I'd favor the Medusa over the Vanquisher. My opinion.
If my shot scatters, I might still hit something. If a Vanquisher shot misses, there's no template for the shell wizzing past, although it sounds scary as hell.
Plus I've spent less points on the Medusa, meaning I've probably have something in the form of a backup should I miss.

I'm veering towards Ailaros on this. For +35 points you can get the Demolisher with AV 14/13/11 and still deny terminators' armour saves.
Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%. Assuming you take a more gung-ho attitude with your Demolishers (no guts, no glory!) you'll probably be getting around the same, maybe slightly better odds, with a much better armour value.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

alarmingrick wrote:

Ailaros wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:Again it boils down to you don't like it, or don't see a need for it, to be exact. Others do. I feel like
you're trying to talk people out of something based on your preference.

So, I like to believe that every unit in a codex is worth taking, even if you need to warp the rest of your list to make it playable. Obviously, this isn't exactly true (I mean, look at chaos spawn...), but my skepticism here is being used to figure out what they're actually good for in the codex. So far, the reasons for taking them seem to boil down to things that other units can do quite a bit better or for cheaper, or are based on perfect-case scenarios (like always hitting, and never having cover).

I'm trying to figure out what makes them special, not what makes them worth fielding if you ignore math or pretend like you don't have other options.

I think another way to frame this discussion is to compare it to the vanquisher. Both of them are a single-shot BS3 gun that doesn't ignore cover, and that gets a +D6. Nobody takes the vanquisher, because its firepower is awful. Suddenly, though, when you put that vanquisher cannon on an AV12 chassis it becomes good?

I mean, at least the vanquisher is likely to get a couple of shots off, what with its AV14, unlike the medusa which is going to get one shot off and then get blown to kingdom come (or stun locked, or weapon destroyed, or, or, or...).

Again, which is your opinion. I'd favor the Medusa over the Vanquisher. My opinion.
If my shot scatters, I might still hit something. If a Vanquisher shot misses, there's no template for the shell wizzing past, although it sounds scary as hell.
Plus I've spent less points on the Medusa, meaning I've probably have something in the form of a backup should I miss.

If you want cheap anti-tank, Devil Dog. S8 small blast multi-melta, plus hull mounted multi-melta, plus AV 12/12/10, plus not open-topped, plus 135 points with MM.

Joey wrote:I'm veering towards Ailaros on this. For +35 points you can get the Demolisher with AV 14/13/11 and still deny terminators' armour saves.
Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%. Assuming you take a more gung-ho attitude with your Demolishers (no guts, no glory!) you'll probably be getting around the same, maybe slightly better odds, with a much better armour value.

Which is a solid choice, but remember you're going to have to be 12-24" closer than the Medusa would have to be.

alarmingrick wrote:

Joey wrote:I'm veering towards Ailaros on this. For +35 points you can get the Demolisher with AV 14/13/11 and still deny terminators' armour saves.
Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%. Assuming you take a more gung-ho attitude with your Demolishers (no guts, no glory!) you'll probably be getting around the same, maybe slightly better odds, with a much better armour value.

Which is a solid choice, but remember you're going to have to be 12-24" closer than the Medusa would have to be.

A Land Raider more than 12" away will almost definitely have cover so it's not as big an issue as you might think. I've never found Demolishers' short range to be a problem anyway, maybe if I played against Tau or other IG.

Joey wrote:Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%.
...
A Land Raider more than 12" away will almost definitely have cover so it's not as big an issue as you might think.

What? Why? Landraiders are pretty difficult to obscure, plus you have 6" of movement to adjust your LoS. Plus the vast majority of targets won't want to pop smoke and will need to expose themselves to fire their weapons. The Medusa isn't a weapon for Rhinos. It kills Predators, Monoliths, Russes, Landraiders, Doomsday Arks, etc. etc.

DarkHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Thing about Medusa is that your enemy will probably be getting a cover save, which reduces the chance of a successful penetrating hit to about ~25%.
...
A Land Raider more than 12" away will almost definitely have cover so it's not as big an issue as you might think.

What? Why? Landraiders are pretty difficult to obscure, plus you have 6" of movement to adjust your LoS. Plus the vast majority of targets won't want to pop smoke and will need to expose themselves to fire their weapons. The Medusa isn't a weapon for Rhinos. It kills Predators, Monoliths, Russes, Landraiders, Doomsday Arks, etc. etc.

Land Raiders can get easy cover when every game you play is filled with ruins that tanks can plow through at will (not my fault, my WAAC opponant).
The only thing you need specialised weaponry for is AV14, Predators are either too far away or close enough to get side armour on.
You're statistically very unlikely to kill a Land Raider before it drops its payload anyway. So try to by all means, but don't opt for an open-topped AV12 over a Leman Russ in order to hurt your long term survivability in exchange for a slightly increased chance of doing something that's not that useful anyway.

Joey wrote:Land Raiders can get easy cover when every game you play is filled with ruins that tanks can plow through at will (not my fault, my WAAC opponant).
The only thing you need specialised weaponry for is AV14, Predators are either too far away or close enough to get side armour on.
You're statistically very unlikely to kill a Land Raider before it drops its payload anyway. So try to by all means, but don't opt for an open-topped AV12 over a Leman Russ in order to hurt your long term survivability in exchange for a slightly increased chance of doing something that's not that useful anyway.

There isn't any rule that says models can't move through walls, so that means they can? I'd argue permissive rule-set, etc. Plus you have the power to say models can't drive through walls when you declare terrain. That's a very weird rule, whatever.

Anyway, Medusas score a penetrating hit 68.some-odd% of the time against Landraiders, assuming 5" of average acceptable scatter. You can immobilize or slag that Landraider in two turns. If you have any mobility at all, the Terminators will be useless.

Except for Fast Skimmers, I don't think you can get the side of a Predator at 36". My Predator can usually find a wall to cover one of its flanks, then angle it so you can't get into the other. I'd have to be aiming at something else for you to get side armor even at 24". My Tri-Las Predator pens a Chimera a turn, so the need to silence it becomes pretty urgent.

I'm a big fan of the medusa, but it has its downsides. When you field it, it's generally in one of two situations:

A: Nothing on the table warrants its fury, like razorwolves or mech csm that you can just use autocannons and missiles to take out.
B: There's heavy armor about, meaning your opponent will see it as top priority.

Here's how I strive to use it:

1. Use terrain and hulls to block the LOS of as many units as possible, except the target.
2. If the target can shoot back, make sure there's some backup firepower in case you miss.
3. Shoot it with medusa, hit and roll good damage.
4. If you're still exposed, run out in front with some cheap sentinels for cover.

Obviously this requires a lot of planning compared to just taking some storm troopers, and it can break down due to a number of causes (enemy's in cover, fast melta, wolf scouts, bad luck etc.) but it's really cool when you get it right. Though I agree that the medusa is pretty lame without BB shells, you're better off with a demolisher then.

Actually there is a rule that says you can move through walls. It's on page 14.

I'm still with Dark Hound here, for me mainly because the medusa is AP1.

All the russes have about the same chance of hitting a heavy tank as a medusa, but only the medusa (and devil dogs) kill the target on a 4+. Except for necrons who are killed on a 3+.

ruins, fences, trees, etc all can moved/walls crushed by tanks as long as you don't roll a 1.

If you drive into area terrain, you just can't be on top of another alive vehicle but ok to park on top of wreckage. and you cannot go up floors.

As an aside question, does a tank behing in area terrain like on top of the wreckage of another tank count as being in cover?

50% or more of the armor facing the firer is in needs to be hidden from the perspective of the firing model (or half or more of the firing models if more than one in a unit is firing.)

Welcome to 5th edition.

Mannahnin wrote:50% or more of the armor facing the firer is in needs to be hidden from the perspective of the firing model (or half or more of the firing models if more than one in a unit is firing.)

Welcome to 5th edition.

Thanks to my awesome house rules you can simply park vehicles in ruins behind the walls, guaranteeing covers.

Without the rules, still...

The medusa is only going to hit the land raider about half the time (bigger target, but the hole being on is necessary), and it still has to roll to penetrate the armor (only about 84% of the time - put another way, it pens on a 2+ and you can roll a proverbial 1), and you still need to roll on the top half of the damage table.

Even without cover, you're only wrecking a land raider in about 1 of 5 shots you take at it. Given that it's probably not going to survive its first turn out of cover after it makes its first shot, what you've got is still long odds, even without cover.

Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time. You need to remember, it can still kill a Landraider when scattering off, which adds just over 1%. Plus you only need an Immobilized result, which you get a total of 45% of the time.

And you know, 48" goes a long way to protecting the chassis. When I used it, it stayed alive by hanging out around the corners of the board, keeping a Russ between it and predators (generic term). The board is 72" across. If you can stay on the opposite end of your opponent's 48" weapons, he can't touch you. It'll be 2 or 3 turns before reserves or faster units can take it out.

DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

DarkHound wrote:
And you know, 48" goes a long way to protecting the chassis. When I used it, it stayed alive by hanging out around the corners of the board, keeping a Russ between it and predators (generic term). The board is 72" across. If you can stay on the opposite end of your opponent's 48" weapons, he can't touch you. It'll be 2 or 3 turns before reserves or faster units can take it out.

Problem is, they compete with Russes for heavy slots. Take 1 Medusa and 2 Leman Russ and the enemy will just concentrate fire on the Medusa. Take 2 Medusas and 1 Leman Russ and you're sacrificing a large pie plate for a small one.

Flavius Infernus and sudojoe wrote:Actually there is a rule that says you can move through walls. It's on page 14.

Unless the players agree otherwise. My group tends to think rolling through a building is a great way to get your tank stuck, plus the game doesn't simulate what happens when you put a hole in a building. But my point is moot if he plays like that.

I've never seen slot competition as a factor since Russes prefer to be in squadrons. I used to run an IA1 Armored Company, but found the Russes usually combined fire anyway. It's very hard to put a penetrating hit on a Russ, so being in a squadron lets the Shaken Russ pop smoke and give cover to the other one. I'd take 4 Russes and 1 or 2 Medusas at 1500 points, easy.

Joey wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

And if you do the same math for any other weapon in the game, you'll find that the Medusa has a lot better odds than most any of them. Not saying that it's a no-brainer, but it is remarkably deadly by comparison. The fact that it doesn't even need to get the hole on target to give strong odds of penetrating most transports is an almost unique advantage, too.

Mannahnin wrote:

Joey wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

And if you do the same math for any other weapon in the game, you'll find that the Medusa has a lot better odds than most any of them. Not saying that it's a no-brainer, but it is remarkably deadly by comparison. The fact that it doesn't even need to get the hole on target to give strong odds of penetrating most transports is an almost unique advantage, too.

Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down. And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.
Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.

Joey wrote:Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down. And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.
Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.

Actually, a BS4 Meltagunner has a 39% chance of penetrating, with an additional 8% chance to glance. Getting a glance really doesn't hurt AV14 because you don't have the weight of fire to strip it down. Plus those Veterans will need a Chimera, and they'll need to get really close in order to do any damage. Your opponent gets a turn free before needing to pop smoke, and then your Meltaguns probably won't get a hit on the table. Then they'll die because they're out of position, sitting in the face of the opponent's spearhead. That kind of suicide is far less situational than potentially being vulnerable to weapons 48" away.

Plus the Veterans will never get to do anything about a Leman Russ or a Predator or a Doomsday Ark.

Joey wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Joey wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

And if you do the same math for any other weapon in the game, you'll find that the Medusa has a lot better odds than most any of them. Not saying that it's a no-brainer, but it is remarkably deadly by comparison. The fact that it doesn't even need to get the hole on target to give strong odds of penetrating most transports is an almost unique advantage, too.

Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down. And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.
Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.

I'd like to see the odds of a vet squad getting into that range, in one piece, with a CCS or PCS, also in one piece, vs. the odds of a Medusa getting shots at 48", that will affect the LR.
And don't get me wrong, I run mechvet. It just seems that in my experience I can get a LR with my Manticore easier than with my vets. And when I do get my vets there, I rarely have
a CCS anywhere near them. That said, I'm going to (eventually) run a list with Medusas in place of my Demolishers. That'll be what I eventually decide their value on. Right now I'm just not
willing to write them off as useless.

Joey wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:

Joey wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

34% with cover, means you'll need about 2 shots to be sure of penetrating, since 2/3 of results are useful (wrecked, exploded or immobilised) the chance of an individual shot doing that is ~20%.

And if you do the same math for any other weapon in the game, you'll find that the Medusa has a lot better odds than most any of them. Not saying that it's a no-brainer, but it is remarkably deadly by comparison. The fact that it doesn't even need to get the hole on target to give strong odds of penetrating most transports is an almost unique advantage, too.

Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down.

Are you joking? Those aren't the odds. Try doing the math again. And if you're factoring in a cover save against the Medusa you darn well should be against the melta, as that's the turn the opponent's going to pop smoke.

Joey wrote:[And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.

Plus a Chimera to deliver them. Plus they can't start shooting that LR on turn 1.

Actually I think the combination of meltavets plus a Medusa or Manticore seems the way to go. The latter starts threatening the opponent on turn 1, encouraging him to spread out and pop smoke early. The vets have improved odds of popping it mid-game if he does.

Joey wrote:Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.

Sure, though it can contest one, especially if it's on your side of the table when the game ends. If you can kill it while it's still on your opponent's side of the table it doesn't threaten your objectives or do its main job by delivering a nasty assault unit into your lines.

DarkHound wrote:

Joey wrote:Odds of a single veteran meltagun hitting and damaging a land raider is ~50%, 64% with Bring it Down. And there's THREE of them, for 100 points.
Anyway I'd rather focus on blowing up what came out of the Land Raider than the LR itself. Land Raider's can't claim objectives.

Actually, a BS4 Meltagunner has a 39% chance of penetrating, with an additional 8% chance to glance. Getting a glance really hurts against AV14 because you don't have the weight of fire to strip it down. Plus those Veterans will need a Chimera, and they'll need to get really close in order to do any damage. Your opponent gets a turn free before needing to pop smoke, and then your Meltaguns probably won't get a hit on the table. Then they'll die because they're out of position, sitting in the face of the opponent's spearhead. That kind of suicide is far less situational than potentially being vulnerable to weapons 48" away.

Glancing on AP1 is good enough for me
Who says vets have to be in chimeras? If a LR is charging your gunline, it'll be in range of 2-3 squads of meltavets.
This all boils down to this:
Is a slightly improved chance of taking out a Land Raider from range worth the trade off in reduced AV and survivability?
In my opinion, no. Demolishers can crack Land Raiders and Terminators, in fact just about anything, while soaking up more firepower than three Medusas (cba to actually do the maths on that one, feel free to correct me).

The flip side is that even an immobilized land raider on turns 1-2 can delay whatever nastiness is inside.

Waiting until they get within meltagun range means that even if you pop the LR... it did it's job.

(this is why I love the CCS/Valk Combo)

Polonius wrote:The flip side is that even an immobilized land raider on turns 1-2 can delay whatever nastiness is inside.

Waiting until they get within meltagun range means that even if you pop the LR... it did it's job.

(this is why I love the CCS/Valk Combo)

So? There's no point going out and out to pop Land Raiders when their biggest threat is what they're carrying. Given the choice between shooting meltas at Death Company and a Land Raider, I know what I'm going to choose anyway.

DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

I'm not sure I'm the one thinking off here. In order to have a 68% rate, you need to hit the land raider with 81% of your shots. In order to hit with 81% of your shots, the shot still needs to hit even if you roll a 8 on your scatter die. This means, that, to get this hit rate, the land raider needs to be 10" wide by 10" long.

I may not know the exact dimensions of the land raider, but I can say with certainty that the vehicle is smaller than that.

DarkHound wrote:And you know, 48" goes a long way to protecting the chassis.

Sure, but there are a lot of weapons in the game that have that range or longer. Plus, most of the things you'd be shooting at themselves have guns that reach that far, and are now guaranteed clear LOS for retaliatory fire...

umm... what they're carrying is why you pop landraiders... it slows them down.

A squad of assault termiantors can rip up an IG parking lot if it hits. A squad that has to walk will take quite a while to do so.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote:Ailaros, you keep failing to take into account how large the Landraider is. My math is correct. It'll hit and penetrate 68% of the time.

I'm not sure I'm the one thinking off here. In order to have a 68% rate, you need to hit the land raider with 81% of your shots. In order to hit with 81% of your shots, the shot still needs to hit even if you roll a 8 on your scatter die. This means, that, to get this hit rate, the land raider needs to be 10" wide by 10" long.

I may not know the exact dimensions of the land raider, but I can say with certainty that the vehicle is smaller than that.

I haven't sat down to hash out the numbers, but did you take the 33% of "hit" results on the scatter die into account? Just my dead reckoning feels like the template could scatter about 3-4 inches and still have the hole over, so that's up to roughly "7" on the scattering rolls, plus the 1/3 hits comes out around 80% roughly.

Ailaros wrote:

DarkHound wrote:And you know, 48" goes a long way to protecting the chassis.

Sure, but there are a lot of weapons in the game that have that range or longer. Plus, most of the things you'd be shooting at themselves have guns that reach that far, and are now guaranteed clear LOS for retaliatory fire...

Again, guard don't have anything else AP1 that can reach that far. You keep mentioning the "upper half" of the damage chart, but AP1 means you only need a 3 on the damage chart to stop a transport. That's the upper 2/3.

Polonius wrote:umm... what they're carrying is why you pop landraiders... it slows them down.

Then you have to put time into the mix. After all, if you're not blowing up or immobilizing them before they make it to your stuff, then it doesn't matter. If your opponent gets first turn, They move up 12" and pop smoke, then the move 12", and assault ramp assault 8". This means you've got one shot at a smoked target. Medusa's not very likely to pull through in this case. If you get to go first, you get two shots (only one of which against smoke), but the odds still aren't great.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Again, guard don't have anything else AP1 that can reach that far. You keep mentioning the "upper half" of the damage chart, but AP1 means you only need a 3 on the damage chart to stop a transport. That's the upper 2/3.

So what this means is that these targets are either not best handled at range, or they're better handled with other, non-AP1 weapons.

And I know that you think that if a unit is in a transport it is a speed demon, and once it looses it's ride it has all the speed of the US postal service, but even if that land raider gets to mid-field and is immobilized, the guys inside can still make it to your deployment zone the next turn, and the vehicle still has it's weapons that it can shoot.

I counted an average of 5, but I must have had a brain fart. That would include going off the tank. A 4 is more appropriate. The total penetration rate is closer to 60% then. Still miles above anything else.

Ailaros wrote:

Polonius wrote:umm... what they're carrying is why you pop landraiders... it slows them down.

Then you have to put time into the mix. After all, if you're not blowing up or immobilizing them before they make it to your stuff, then it doesn't matter. If your opponent gets first turn, They move up 12" and pop smoke, then the move 12", and assault ramp assault 8". This means you've got one shot at a smoked target. Medusa's not very likely to pull through in this case. If you get to go first, you get two shots (only one of which against smoke), but the odds still aren't great.

9", or ~9.5" with terminator bases. You can easily buy another turn by not deploying on the DZ line. That means you've got one shot at a smoked target, one shot at a non-smoked target, or one at a smoked and two at a non-smoked if you get first turn. The ideal situation is to pop the thing while it's still sitting in his own DZ. And the best weapon for that is the Medusa.

Ailaros wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:Again, guard don't have anything else AP1 that can reach that far. You keep mentioning the "upper half" of the damage chart, but AP1 means you only need a 3 on the damage chart to stop a transport. That's the upper 2/3.

So what this means is that these targets are either not best handled at range, or they're better handled with other, non-AP1 weapons.

What? Part of the point of this discussion is the recognition that a Medusa gives you uniquely high odds of stopping these kind of targets from across the table. Anything else with the range doesn't get 2d6 & AP1.

Ailaros wrote:And I know that you think that if a unit is in a transport it is a speed demon, and once it looses it's ride it has all the speed of the US postal service, but even if that land raider gets to mid-field and is immobilized, the guys inside can still make it to your deployment zone the next turn, and the vehicle still has it's weapons that it can shoot.

The point of shooting a transport is to slow down the contents. The earlier you stop it the better it is for you, and the longer it takes the embarked unit to get close to you and do damage. The more transports you stop, the more you break up your opponent's advance, and the more his units straggle into your lines in waves. If they straggle into your lines in waves you get to focus your close-range guns on fewer targets at a time- local superiority of force, while his units stuck at the back are too far away to hurt you.

I think a lot of people have the "it's big, bring it down!" syndrome.
If you go second, blowing up the Land Raider will do nothing whatsoever to help you, since the units inside will be in assault distance (12" ) anyway.
Blowing up a Land Raider when it's still in enemy deployment is helpful I suppose, but in taking the Medusa you've limitted your ability to deal with what's inside it. Those small blast will only get one at a time and what's inside could well be getting a 3+ invulnerable against it, and almost definitely a 4+ cover. Having three Demolishers means any untransported enemy heavy infantry will be killed like dogs.
I'd rather safely and securely notch up kills on the enemy's rhinos/razors and predators, as well as any infantry that aren't in transports.
Add to that the fact that a gunline with 3-4 AV14s is nigh-on impenetrable. Those Leman Russes will be around most of the game, those open-tropped AV12s may well not make it past turn 1. If your enemy has bought Devestators and you've gone second, you can kiss them goodbye.

Joey wrote: but in taking the Medusa you've limitted your ability to deal with what's inside it.

Dedicating 140 points to killing a 260 point unit has actually freed up 120 points to kill what's inside. You do eventually need to kill the Landraider, or else it will contest your objective and ruin your day. Without the Medusa, you have to send 2 or 3 Meltagun squads for it to be dead on turn 3. The Medusa is cheaper and gets the same result. Plus you can still spam Leman Russes to your heart's delight.

DarkHound wrote:

Joey wrote: but in taking the Medusa you've limitted your ability to deal with what's inside it.

Dedicating 140 points to killing a 260 point unit has actually freed up 120 points to kill what's inside. You do eventually need to kill the Landraider, or else it will contest your objective and ruin your day. Without the Medusa, you have to send 2 or 3 Meltagun squads for it to be dead on turn 3. The Medusa is cheaper and gets the same result. Plus you can still spam Leman Russes to your heart's delight.

Does your opponant not deploy BS4 Lascannons? Something with that armour value versus its power will draw all the enemy's Anti-Tank until it's dead. Or were you planning on taking 3 of them, and forgoing Leman Russes alltogether?

Joey wrote:

DarkHound wrote:

Joey wrote: but in taking the Medusa you've limitted your ability to deal with what's inside it.

Dedicating 140 points to killing a 260 point unit has actually freed up 120 points to kill what's inside. You do eventually need to kill the Landraider, or else it will contest your objective and ruin your day. Without the Medusa, you have to send 2 or 3 Meltagun squads for it to be dead on turn 3. The Medusa is cheaper and gets the same result. Plus you can still spam Leman Russes to your heart's delight.

Does your opponant not deploy BS4 Lascannons? Something with that armour value versus its power will draw all the enemy's Anti-Tank until it's dead. Or were you planning on taking 3 of them, and forgoing Leman Russes alltogether?

I was actually going to go something like:
2 Medusa
2 Hydra

and either
1 Manticore
or
2 Demolishers

Actually, you can take 3 of them and still take 5 or 6 Russes. Frankly, you don't need more than one.

They are pretty easy to hide. Even the GW Ork Barricades will obscure the chassis. You can cover the gun with a Leman Russ. With proper deployment, the only thing that can see it is the target. That target probably won't be shooting back, so you're safe.

Is this turning into a thread where the people that haven't won tournaments with medusas are telling the people that have how wrong they are?

Taking a medusa is a low cost, high reward unit. It's not an auto-include, and great lists can be built without it. But it's a very solid choice against a very common target: AV12+.

Polonius wrote:Is this turning into a thread where the people that haven't won tournaments with medusas are telling the people that have how wrong they are?

Yes. Not that winning a tournament is proof of anything. But some of the assertions made do demonstrate to me why most of the regular tournament winners I know don't bother trying to explain how online.

Polonius wrote:Taking a medusa is a low cost, high reward unit. It's not an auto-include, and great lists can be built without it. But it's a very solid choice against a very common target: AV12+.

Yep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:If you go second, blowing up the Land Raider will do nothing whatsoever to help you, since the units inside will be in assault distance (12" ) anyway.

Not true. Are you interested in the explanation of why? I gave a general description of the reason before you posted this.

Mannahnin wrote:

Polonius wrote:Is this turning into a thread where the people that haven't won tournaments with medusas are telling the people that have how wrong they are?

Yes. Not that winning a tournament is proof of anything. But some of the assertions made do demonstrate to me why most of the regular tournament winners I know don't bother trying to explain how online.

Lol, good point. Though, "learn your army, know the other armies, and play the missions" are simple to say, and hard to implement. Because they require effort, not debate.

lots lots of playtesting. Frankly that to me is the fun of the game. If I could win a tournament just by debating on dakka, I'd be dismayed at how easy game became lol

sudojoe wrote:lots lots of playtesting. Frankly that to me is the fun of the game. If I could win a tournament just by debating on dakka, I'd be dismayed at how easy game became lol

Especially when they play completely different opponants to you. I have played one opponant, a lot, I know what works against it and what doesn't. Being told that something is effective in tournies is irrelavent unless you plan on exclusively playing in tournaments, which is silly.

Well, no one else can give you advice on what works best against your specific personal friend.

We can give you advice on play in general. Tournaments are a great place to practice using a fixed list against a wide variety of opponents.

Or on what works against a given army or tactic.

I've always wanted to build a catachan army with Three Medusas, six sentinels, a bunch of lascannon heavy weapons teams and just a wall of catachans. Something seems cool about that.

Anyway, I've always thought medusas were a cool part of the game. They really make you think tactically, from both player's point of view.

Mannahnin wrote:Well, no one else can give you advice on what works best against your specific personal friend.

We can give you advice on play in general. Tournaments are a great place to practice using a fixed list against a wide variety of opponents.

Or on what works against a given army or tactic.

Well a good poster breaks down elements of combat into segments that can be transposed across armies and playstyles.
For example Medusas are not effective against lists with lots of BS4 autocannons/lascannons.

Joey wrote:Well a good poster breaks down elements of combat into segments that can be transposed across armies and playstyles.
For example Medusas are not effective against lists with lots of BS4 autocannons/lascannons.

Actually, a good poster provides all of the relevant information in a question he asks.

And doesn't insult people trying to help him.

And doesn't ask a question, when he only plays against one guy, and already "knows what works against him."

So, sorry if we don't meet your standards, but I'd rather not waste more time when you clearly aren't actually looking for feedback.

I think Joey's example is the opposite of what his first sentence means. I can't really tell though.

Seems like this has got a little heated. I would rather take a Manticore over a Medusa. The Manticore is indirect and S10 with the large blast plus d3 for four rounds of shooting. To be honest I rarely ever see any Medusas.

DarkHound wrote:I think Joey's example is the opposite of what his first sentence means. I can't really tell though.

No, because a good poster would break down how a medusa performs against all the different armies and phases in which BS4 Autocannons shoot at you.

In Sanskrit.

Joey wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Well, no one else can give you advice on what works best against your specific personal friend.

We can give you advice on play in general. Tournaments are a great place to practice using a fixed list against a wide variety of opponents.

Or on what works against a given army or tactic.

Well a good poster breaks down elements of combat into segments that can be transposed across armies and playstyles.

Yep. There's been quite a bit of it in this thread.

Joey wrote:For example Medusas are not effective against lists with lots of BS4 autocannons/lascannons.

That's not an accurate statement. Most shooty armies have lots of missile launchers and often some lascannons as well. You can protect your Medusa by giving it cover (which you can enhance with camo nets), by limiting the number of units which can get LOS & range to it, ways to do both of which have been described in the thread, and by targeting the units which can get range and LOS to it with your own weapons. Are you guaranteed to be able to protect it? No, of course not. There are few guarantees in the game.

Versus a shooty army with some expensive armor the Medusa will be a high priority target. All you have to do is shake or stun it to shut it down which is not that hard.

-666- wrote:Versus a shooty army with some expensive armor the Medusa will be a high priority target. All you have to do is shake or stun it to shut it down which is not that hard.

You can't hit what you can't see.

If even you can see it, if it's behind a chimera, you'll only hit what you can see 50% of the time.

It's harder than you think without a dedicated effort.

Polonius wrote:

-666- wrote:Versus a shooty army with some expensive armor the Medusa will be a high priority target. All you have to do is shake or stun it to shut it down which is not that hard.

You can't hit what you can't see.

If even you can see it, if it's behind a chimera, you'll only hit what you can see 50% of the time.

It's harder than you think without a dedicated effort.

BS4 lascannon:
.66 hit
so 0.11 glance, 1/3=0.03 chance(0.04 TW)
0.44 penetrate, of which 2/3 destroy it or its weapon (which is just as bad)=0.3. Twin-linked makes this 0.4.
Accounting for cover saves means half of the time it will take 3 lascannons to destroy a Madusa. In fact with the ease of damaging it, it's unlikely it'd be able to get any shots off at all unless you went first.

Or you blocked LOS to it from the start, using terrain and/or other models.

Then the turn after after you've moved it to fire?
Either way it's still a one-shot weapon.

Depends on what else your opponent has available to shoot it with. The corollary to you saying your opponent will treat it as a high-value target is that you will protect it and limit the weapons which have angles on it; part of that by obstructing LOS, and part of it by targeting (with your other units) the stuff that has the angles to shoot it.

I'm sure a squad of Long Fangs could put a hit on it if they've got L0S. Mathammer is fine but you should multiply the odds by the number of shots its likeky to draw.

Like I said no one I play ever takes the Medusa as the Manticore is a better choice—indirect and S10 d3 shots is better. That's how I see it based upon my experience versus Imperial Guard. I'd much rather see a Medusa than a Manticore any game.

Long ranged weapons like Long Fangs are stationary. If you can block their LoS once (and you can), you can block it all game long.

Usually there are two to three squads of Long Fangs though.

-666- wrote:Usually there are two to three squads of Long Fangs though.

And if all 2-3 are shooting at my Medusa, I guess the rest of my army is going to be happy.

It's easy for a medusa or manticore to gain a 4+ cover save from Chimera, especially against static units like long fangs. If the medusa in cover is being shot other AV12 units out in the open are not being shot at. The big problem with the medusas are too fragile argument is manticores are even more feared by most armies, and IG players often manage to keep them alive for more than 1 turn.

If a medusa blows up a land raider it's made it's points back and then some. After a land raider explodes there is usually additional targets with an AV to shoot at.

Blowing up a land raider is still important if IG goes 2nd. After 1 movement phase it's still at least 12" from your lines. If it gets cratered the unit inside is now in difficult terrain and won't make a charge next turn. Furthermore the squads inside are going to start getting pounded by the rest of the IG army.

The problem with medusas is they compete with manticores, which are more versatile. I think it has real potential in high point games as a combo with 2 manticores in each corner and a medusae near the center of the line.

-666- wrote:I'm sure a squad of Long Fangs could put a hit on it if they've got L0S. Mathammer is fine but you should multiply the odds by the number of shots its likeky to draw.

Which I did, hence my conclusion

Accounting for cover saves means half of the time it will take 3 lascannons to destroy a Madusa. In fact with the ease of damaging it, it's unlikely it'd be able to get any shots off at all unless you went first.

If your opponant can see it, it's dead.

Joey wrote:If your opponant can see it, it's dead.

It's funny... when you repeat something enough times, it still isn't true!

Polonius wrote:

Joey wrote:If your opponant can see it, it's dead.

It's funny... when you repeat something enough times, it still isn't true!

Your opponant struggles to glance/penetrate armour 12? seriously?
You need better opponents...

...says the guy who plays against one dude every week, to the guy who has won tournaments using IG including a Medusa.

Joey, your math is. . . a bit odd.

A BS4 lascannon hits 2/3 shots. Against AV12, 2/3 hits will score a damage result. 5/6 damage results will, at minimum, prevent the vehicle from shooting for one turn, and 1/2 of damage results will be ignored by a cover save.

All of this means that, accounting for the fact that some of those damage results will be glances, it requires an average of 5-6 BS4 lascannons to score an effective damage result against a Medusa in cover. It will take an average of 7-8 BS4 missile launchers to do the same, which means that a Space Wolf opponent (for instance) would need to dedicate two Long Fang squads to the task; if you are facing a BS3 opponent, the numbers change to 7-8 lascannons or ~9 missile launchers.

Please keep in mind that these odds include Shaken/Stunned results, which are only temporary. If you exclude them, the number of weapons required rises.

Mannahnin wrote: But some of the assertions made do demonstrate to me why most of the regular tournament winners I know don't bother trying to explain how online.

This is confusing to me. I'd thought that people who believe that 40k can be boiled down to its ultimates and fundamentals would be able to use that scientific approach to explain one's position.

Failure to articulate isn't really an argument in and of itself. In fact, "it's too complicated to explain, just trust me" actually comes off as kind of patronizing.

Polonius wrote:No, because a good poster would break down how a medusa performs against all the different armies and phases in which BS4 Autocannons shoot at you.

In Sanskrit.

... especially when it takes a turn for the oddly sarchastic. Just because people are skeptical doesn't mean that they're too dumb to grasp your point, or are being willingly unreasonable. What's being asked here isn't for you to craft your argument in ancient Hindi, it's to make clear, articulate arguments and to respond to counterarguments.

Mannahnin wrote:...says the guy who plays against one dude every week, to the guy who has won tournaments using IG including a Medusa.

... without, say, making an argument based on the fallacy of Argument from Authority, or just on one's own particular anecdotes.

I'll freely admit that it's possible to win games with them, just like it's possible to win games with ogryn and ratlings, etc. The question here isn't one of if they will ever do anything, but rather one of why should I take one? So far, the arguments seem to be "I am scared of land raiders, and I need them dead NOW, so I'm willing to spend a bunch of points to take a single-shot weapon on a really fragile chassis". It's as if it's worth it to pin all your hopes on a single shot turn 1, even if it's not all that likely to do something (regardless of the rest of the codex). Put another way, it's like people are getting scared into taking a really expensive, high-powered hunter-killer missile.

Moreover, why take the medusa here when other options like devil dogs are scarcely taken, and I've virtually never seen anyone include a a vanquisher. What makes the medusa worth including while those other options aren't?

All I'm asking for here is a more abstract theory of the medusa. Something more than "I took it in a game once" or "I can't figure out how to stop land raiders without them", or "I've been to tournaments before, so you should do as I say". If you've had success with lists that have included a medusa, then good for you, but I don't think it's too much to ask the "why?" of it all.

Each question you've just asked has already been answered in the thread.

A whole bunch of "whys" have been given in the thread. It's only after they were dismissed or ignored or contradicted (based on flatly incorrect math and/or dubious premises) that anyone got sarcastic or bothering bringing up tournament experience.

Also, to be fair, I was accused of playing lousy opponents, which isn't exactly Marquess de Queensberry rules.

I feel like I, and others, have explained how to use the model. I feel no need to debate it's effectiveness.

Polonius wrote:Also, to be fair, I was accused of playing lousy opponents, which isn't exactly Marquess de Queensberry rules.

I feel like I, and others, have explained how to use the model. I feel no need to debate it's effectiveness.

At least not when the contrary point is the assertion that if your opponent can see a unit, that unit is dead. How is that a debate? I might as well write "Medusas are immune to missile launchers". It's an equally true statement.

Mannahnin wrote:Each question you've just asked has already been answered in the thread.

Except they haven't. The arguments here seem to be relying on sheer weight of repetitive assertion. Things have been dismissed, and then not redressed, just dismissed and then reasserted.

Mannahnin wrote:that anyone got sarcastic or bothering bringing up tournament experience.

Pointing out logical fallacy isn't a sign of sarcasm.

Polonius wrote:Also, to be fair, I was accused of playing lousy opponents, which isn't exactly Marquess de Queensberry rules.

So, are you arguing for Medusas based on your anecdotes, or on your wounded sense of pride?

Polonius wrote:I feel like I, and others, have explained how to use the model. I feel no need to debate it's effectiveness.

or just on the forcefulness of your assertion?

I don't understand the "Just run a Devil Dog" reply? It's AV 12 also. Not to mention, I may not want to leave my Vendettas at home.
How's that a valid reply?

I think your question has been answered, Ailaros. It's about long range, AP1 antitank fire.

But if we're pointing out fallacies...

Ailaros wrote:
So far, the arguments seem to be "I am scared of land raiders, and I need them dead NOW, so I'm willing to spend a bunch of points to take a single-shot weapon on a really fragile chassis".

Strawman.

Ailaros wrote:
Put another way, it's like people are getting scared into taking a really expensive, high-powered hunter-killer missile.

False analogy. There are material differences between a HK missile and a medusa.

Ailaros wrote:Moreover, why take the medusa here when other options like devil dogs are scarcely taken, and I've virtually never seen anyone include a a vanquisher. What makes the medusa worth including while those other options aren't?

More false analogies. Range and str10 are the key differences between Devil Dogs and Medusas. Strength, AP and accuracy are the key differences between Vanquishers and Medusas.

We've been making these arguments over and over again, yet it appears to me that you keep coming back and accusing us of not making any arguments? I'm not sure there's a name for that fallacy.

I think I've figured out why this argument appears so familiar: it's basically like arguing for evolution with a creationist. He'll dismiss your evidence, criticize your methods, and insult you. Then, he'll point out that you haven't proved anything.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Joey, your math is. . . a bit odd.

A BS4 lascannon hits 2/3 shots. Against AV12, 2/3 hits will score a damage result. 5/6 damage results will, at minimum, prevent the vehicle from shooting for one turn, and 1/2 of damage results will be ignored by a cover save.
Any result other than immobilised prevents it from shooting in the turn after.
The chance of an BS4 autocannon doing this is 2/3(to hit)*1/2(to damage)*1/2(cover)=0.16, times two for 0.31. Make that autocannon twin-linked and it's 0.2, 0.4 for twice. So a single BS4 autocannon will make it worthless 40% of the time. Lascannon will be 0.2, so less to worry about there. This is assuming front armour, of course.
On side armour autocannon will be 0.4, twin-linked is 0.6. So that twin-linked autocannon will stop you more often than not.
Your opponant will shoot the Medusa first with its weakest Anti-tank and will almost definitely stop it from shooting, and probably render it useless.
Compare this to a Demolisher, a twin-linked lascannon has 0.075 chance of penetrating, 0.075 chance of glanding, combined for a 15% chance of any damage at all.


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Polonius wrote:I think I've figured out why this argument appears so familiar: it's basically like arguing for evolution with a creationist. He'll dismiss your evidence, criticize your methods, and insult you. Then, he'll point out that you haven't proved anything.

I haven't insulted you. I've provided mathematical evidence that people have dismissed as wrong without pointing out why. This is doubly odd considering how unambiguous numbers are, there is no room for verbal ties.
A Medusa will only ever get one shot off in a game, and that's only if the guard player goes first.

You keep saying that, despite the fact that there's 100 and 1 ways to completely cover the vehicle. We've talked about several. Yes, move a Medusa out into the open it will be killed the following turn. However you can close off lines of sight to anything except the target. You can actually do that regardless of what terrain is on the board.

DarkHound wrote:You keep saying that, despite the fact that there's 100 and 1 ways to completely cover the vehicle. We've talked about several. Yes, move a Medusa out into the open it will be killed the following turn. However you can close off lines of sight to anything except the target. You can actually do that regardless of what terrain is on the board.

If you can block a vehicle from every single enemy weapon then you're playing the wrong map. And if you can (as I explained earlier), the turn after you will have to move it in order to shoot, which will leave you exposed and being shot at.
Again, a one-shot weapon. 140(?) points for something that will die as easily as a chimera and give you a ~20% chance of penetrating a Land Raider.

No. If you surround it with Russes (for example), you only need to move the one that will let you see your target. All the others can stay there blocking LoS.

DarkHound wrote:You keep saying that, despite the fact that there's 100 and 1 ways to completely cover the vehicle. We've talked about several. Yes, move a Medusa out into the open it will be killed the following turn. However you can close off lines of sight to anything except the target. You can actually do that regardless of what terrain is on the board.

I would also imagine it would be possible to have a Medusa in cover, out of LOS to it's target as well. Move it 6", then fire at it's target
seems like it may be a valid tactic.

Terrain does exist. Other tanks do exist.

Mannahnin wrote:Terrain does exist. Other tanks do exist.

Unless you're Joey's Medusa.

alarmingrick wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Terrain does exist. Other tanks do exist.

Unless you're Joey's Medusa.

Or you bend the laws of physics by shooting without being able to be shot at in return.
And you're willing to spend 500 points of Leman Russes completely surrounded you rather than spread out along the gunline.

Oh, you'll be in LoS of the target you shoot at, yes. The point is that'll probably be dead.

Joey wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Terrain does exist. Other tanks do exist.

Unless you're Joey's Medusa.

Or you bend the laws of physics by shooting without being able to be shot at in return.
And you're willing to spend 500 points of Leman Russes completely surrounded you rather than spread out along the gunline.

Why wouldn't I have a piece of terrain to hide behind, move 6" in my movement phase to get LOS and then fire?

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Why wouldn't I have a piece of terrain to hide behind, move 6" in my movement phase to get LOS and then fire?

You can, but you'll be exposed the turn after, hence dead. Note that all my calculations above included cover saves.

DarkHound wrote:Oh, you'll be in LoS of the target you shoot at, yes. The point is that'll probably be dead.

Well, no, there's a ~20% chance you'll destroy it, depending what it is. Even if you do, its friends will be nearby. There will likely be a spread of Anti-Tank across the enemy's gunline, you'll be very lucky to hide yourself from all of those while in a position to shoot.

A) Terrain and other vehicles allow you to limit the angles and number of shots your opponent can get at a given unit. If you are not going first, you are able to set up in response to your opponent's deployment. If you cannot completely hide even one unit from your opponent at deployment, you are probably playing with too little terrain.

B) Units are used in conjunction with one another. If you need/want to preserve a given unit, you use your other units as shields and/or to target the enemy units which threaten it.

C) No unit is immune to death. Any unit CAN and will die, at least some of the time. How easily and how often is principally a function of both players' choices in deployment, movement, and targeting priority. You can impact your opponent's deployment and movement and target priority through your own deployment, movement, and attacks. The mission also bears on it. If your opponent has the choice to fire his Long Fangs at a Medusa or at a Vendetta moving Flat Out onto his flank to take side armor shots on his tanks, which does he choose? Target saturation is a term for presenting multiple threats to an opponent and forcing hard choices.

D) No unit is guaranteed to die just because someone wants it to. The corollary of saying that any unit CAN die is that sometimes they just won't, even when targeted and prioritized. Sometimes the first Glance on an open-topped vehicle will be a 6 and it will die. Sometimes a whole Long Fang squad will shoot and miss or bounce off. As presented before, the odds of death presented by one nasty enemy unit are not all that high for any given round. Over the course of the game, sure, the odds increase. But the numbers of Long Fangs shooting decrease if you hit them with a Russ, or just a bunch of multilasers, for that matter.

E) As clearly described in the thread, the Medusa is uniquely deadly against heavy vehicles at long range, and unusually accurate against lighter vehicles.

F) Having long range allows you to pick multiple possible targets, and to target them starting on turn 1, which meltavets generally cannot. This makes them complimentary to meltavets, as you have multiple reliable and accurate AP1 antitank units, forcing your opponent to consider how to defend his tanks and when to expend his smoke from turn 1, as opposed to just starting on the turn on which he moves into your melta range.

Joey wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Why wouldn't I have a piece of terrain to hide behind, move 6" in my movement phase to get LOS and then fire?

You can, but you'll be exposed the turn after, hence dead. Note that all my calculations above included cover saves.

Actually, I said that.

Mannahnin wrote:A) Terrain and other vehicles allow you to limit the angles and number of shots your opponent can get at a given unit. If you are not going first, you are able to set up in response to your opponent's deployment. If you cannot completely hide even one unit from your opponent at deployment, you are probably playing with too little terrain.

Depending on terrain I'd say it was damn near impossible to position a unit that COULD shoot at a target but could NOT be shot at next turn by any of the enemy's potential firing archs (fast preditors can move 12" and still shoot twin-linked autocannon, are you going to be able to position your Medusa so it can't be shot at by 3 of these spread out across the board?

Predators don't have twin linked autocannons. They normally have a single autocannon turret or can pay a pile of points for a twin-linked lascannon which virtually no one takes.

Only Blood Angels have Fast Predators. I use two in my own BA army. If three are distributed across the table, only one is likely to be able to get the angle to shoot at your hidden Medusa with a 12" move, and then it gets to shoot one gun at it.

The gun on a medusa is higher up than the body, same story with the hydra.

Hydra tactics 101: use a chimera for cover because your gun is high enough it can shoot over the chimera, but over 50% of the hydra is covered from return fire. Same trick works for the medusa or manticore.

I've used it a few times.

It kills something, then dies; any opponent who is even vaguely familiar with the rules will make it a priority target.

Not sure what we need 4 pages of discussion for, though...?

The few times I have played versus IG with a Medusa it was never a problem to target the Medusa although I have heard of some shady players claiming they can see your units but you can't see the Medusa and we all know that's bull hockey.

Ailaros wrote:

alarmingrick wrote:

I think another way to frame this discussion is to compare it to the vanquisher. Both of them are a single-shot BS3 gun that doesn't ignore cover, and that gets a +D6. Nobody takes the vanquisher, because its firepower is awful. Suddenly, though, when you put that vanquisher cannon on an AV12 chassis it becomes good?

But its not the same as the vanquisher, the vanquisher is AP2 whereas the bastion breacher (which is feel is an almost mandatory upgrade, but not the point of this thread) is AP1 another difference is the Vanquisher isnt blast so it has limited use against any squads and misses half the time. With the blast you can wipe out several marines/terminators/meganobs and against vehicles you have a much better chance of hitting. Plus the vanquisher is str 8 whereas the medusa is str 10. So really, its a completely different cannon.