I have been asked this question by friends because I play Nids and now it's puzzling me. In the Codex it states that the astronomic on draws the Great Devourer to Terra because of its psychic energy given off by the Emperor on the Golden Throne. And in every Codex it shows a galactic map and where that race is and where they move to and this is where I get lost. It shows that Hive fleet Leviathan is not on the galactic plane but that it fact comes out of "null" space and moves up into the plane where it then would "enter the grid". If leviathan is able to do this why not hit Terra? Technically all the races could bypass planet hopping and just go under the galactic plane in null space but they would run the risk of encountering Levithan. I find this flaw disturbing because if they had thought of this then why wouldnt the Inquisition just go into null space then use warp space travel to an enemy home planet and just Exterminatus it? For one there would be more space battles and it would probably shut Warhammer 40,000 down because it would end very very fast. But really Levithan grow a pair get some other fleets and let's go have a nom nom party on Terra!!!
One of 3 tendrils of Leviathan is going straight for Terra, it will arrive when GW wants to present it in a new apocalypse battle, or novel or worlds campaign. If Tyranids attack Terra they will lose very badly. Terra is the most heavily defended planet in the Imperium of Mankind and in the galaxy. Necrons tried to land on Mars, their ships were vaporized in seconds they landed. Tyranids can do some damage but they would quickly lose more biomass then they can regain. If they ever arrive it will be a complete loss for them.
Problems ain't only that Terra is the fortress it it. Mars and Titan still hangs around, Necromunda and Inwit would send reinforcements, 10.000 Custodes with billions of Imperial Guards would welcome the Nids with open arms, the Imperial Fist lurks in the fortresses there. The Grey Knights' untold numbers swarm out of Titan, yeah good luck in taking on that system.
Even if the nids even ever get there, they would be defeated by the incredible amounts of marines, IG, custodians, mars people, Imperial fleet. So pretty much a lot.
That's even if they can land on the planet. The Sol system has one of the largest fleets and orbital defense grids in the galaxy, rivaling that of Cadia.
They will attack Terra at some point, but they probably won't last long, even if they manage to land. Not just do you have the defenses already in system, they will have to deal with all the Astartes responding to a distress call from Terra
If a Hivefleet actualy manages to penetrate the Imperium, with all it's numerous armies and warfleets, far enough to get near Terra then it might also be large enough to overwhelm the defences of the solar system.
Still, it is unlikely that such a thing will happen before the Imperium of Man is truly in shambles. After all, the Highlords would pay any price and sacrifice anything to prevent a threat from actualy getting near the solar system. The Necron raider fleet was an anomaly, a small fleet of basicaly undetectable ships ( that is, compared to a massive hivefleet ).
KingDeath wrote:If a Hivefleet actualy manages to penetrate the Imperium, with all it's numerous armies and warfleets, far enough to get near Terra then it might also be large enough to overwhelm the defences of the solar system.
Still, it is unlikely that such a thing will happen before the Imperium of Man is truly in shambles. After all, the Highlords would pay any price and sacrifice anything to prevent a threat from actualy getting near the solar system. The Necron raider fleet was an anomaly, a small fleet of basicaly undetectable ships ( that is, compared to a massive hivefleet ).
Since the hive fleets can block out the emperor's powers wouldn't they be untracable too, basing positioning on loss of contact with any systems
KingDeath wrote:If a Hivefleet actualy manages to penetrate the Imperium, with all it's numerous armies and warfleets, far enough to get near Terra then it might also be large enough to overwhelm the defences of the solar system.
Still, it is unlikely that such a thing will happen before the Imperium of Man is truly in shambles. After all, the Highlords would pay any price and sacrifice anything to prevent a threat from actualy getting near the solar system. The Necron raider fleet was an anomaly, a small fleet of basicaly undetectable ships ( that is, compared to a massive hivefleet ).
Since the hive fleets can block out the emperor's powers wouldn't they be untracable too, basing positioning on loss of contact with any systems
No they cannot, that Ultramarine Librarian managed to penetrate the Hive Mind. So the mightiest psyker ever to exist should have nada problems doing that. It appears for me that the Hive Mind have slowly get nerfed from: Psykers dies from exposure to it, to psykers die if they are stupid and try to stare into it. Also soon every chapter will have their own Librarian able to do that.
@Commisser41.0 There are a few things wrong with your time table. The Tyranids overwhelm by shear number. Now whie the Tyranids are in interspace they are dormant, but alive and since they are alive they still need to be fed. That's why the attacks don't go straight for the target, they have to stop and eat worlds in order to refill there stores.
In order to understand Tyranid Tactics you have got to put yourself into the mind of a social predator. Let's say a Tyranid Hivefleet is a Lion and the Imperium is a Buffalo. Each Hivefleet has arrived piecemeal, they strike a different part of the galactic plane, just like a Lion starts the hunt. First, one and then another and then another, each time the Buffalo outruns or fights off a Lion it gets more tired and weaker. Finally, six, eight, ten show up and it's taken down for the kill.
So far, six have attacked and another four have been detected. Remeber that even though a fleet has been defeated it can still re-emerge. No one in the Imperium knows how many fleets that there are total. And the Hivemind still hasn't shown up yet, it will only show up in the final stages of the invasion.
The Tyranid invasion of Terra is still along way off.
If you consider the Galaxy is about 110000ish light years across. Then look at a map with the hive fleets super imposed. The hive fleet look like they contain more bio mass than the entire Milky way.
All the hive fleets seem to be approaching in a spear head type formation. The tip would hit the sol system and be wiped from existence but the group behind would be slightly larger and keep getting larger. No matter how much lead you throw at it. It would be the ultimate war of attrition. Finally the Sol systems ability to manufacture ammo, food and other supplies would be overwhelmed never mind trying to scavenge/recycle the raw materials in the first place. The hive fleet at this point would still be getting bigger.
Nids would not flinch a single carapaced eye lash at the loss off untold billions. Their biomass would be recycled and put back to use.
It would be a very frightening prospect to behold.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Nids would have to be dormant during intergalactic travel. There is little to nothing to feed on there. I was always under the impression Nids drifted from Galaxy to Galaxy over Eons, only wakening when nearing McD’s Drive Thru.
The Tyranid will definitely attack the sol system multiple times before they actually try and invade it. The hive mind will poke and prod the systems defence all while weakening it at the same time.
By the time the Tyranids get to Terra in full force, it's likely that a good half, if not more of the galaxt will have been consumed. This will of course push back the Orks into a smaller area, who will further compete with Chaos and the thousand other threats.
Terra might be all but impregnable at the moment... but what about when the empire that manufactures its weapons, rpoduces its food and births its soldiers is bled dry? It might take centuries, but if the rest of the galaxy is reduced to dust and what's not dust is crawling with Orks and Chaos filth then Terra will starve to death and its defences will mean nothing.
The Tyranids are not in a hurry, and will eat everything they encounter on their way to Earth...
Because every GW race is vastly more powerful than all the others. It's almost as if they're a company trying to make profits rather than develop a coherent backstory.
Commissar41.0 wrote:Technically all the races could bypass planet hopping and just go under the galactic plane in null space but they would run the risk of encountering Levithan. I find this flaw disturbing because if they had thought of this then why wouldnt the Inquisition just go into null space then use warp space travel to an enemy home planet and just Exterminatus it? For one there would be more space battles and it would probably shut Warhammer 40,000 down because it would end very very fast. But really Levithan grow a pair get some other fleets and let's go have a nom nom party on Terra!!!
That's not quite how it works because the galaxy is not actually 2-D. There are still going to be a large number of planets 'above' and 'below' Terra for the Tyranids to get through, as well as defences of the solar system itself and I believe the Orks are within Segmentum Solar as well. Not to mention humanity going down to the Tyranids would likely be pretty bad for the Eldar so they might get involved. Same with the Silent King. Mars also has a whole load of forbidden technology locked up, including stuff that makes stars go supernova. The Tyranids probably won't have encountered a fair amount of the technology the Priesthood of Mars could rustle up.
vim_the_good wrote:Then look at a map with the hive fleets super imposed. The hive fleet look like they contain more bio mass than the entire Milky way.
I always assumed that those maps were just showing the path of the Hive Fleets rather than the actual size of it. Otherwise the defeating of Behemoth and Kraken shows the Tyranid numbers to be absolutely necessary against stiff Imperial resistance.
The Nids would have to be dormant during intergalactic travel.
Which makes them very vulnerable were travelling to other systems and planets. Considering Segmentum Solar has the largest Imperial Battlefleet out of any of the Segmentums, I'm not sure the Tyranids will be that successful (that said, Abaddon's ongoing Black Crusade would severely skew the war).
It is one of those things hinted at in the Codex's that will never get progressed or resolved. Remember Void Dragon and Mars? LOL, MATT WARD DOESN'T.
That being said, it'd take the might of a mega-Hive Fleet if not the collective Tyranid race to attack Terra and even the victor would very much be up in the air. Terra is the most heavily defended place in the Galaxy by far.
A single tendril like that army that attacked the smurfs? It wouldn't put a dent into Terras defences.
However the entire tyranid fleet? Difficult, I don't know why they would want to sacrifice loads of biomass they desperatly need to feed the swarm to get lone old Terra...I mean the planet is, if you ignore the humans, a hiveworld armed to the teeths on steroids void of large amounts of biomass.
Oh and Mars is right at the doorstep, threaten the AdMech and they get creative.... noone wants that.
Brother Coa wrote: Terra is the most heavily defended planet in the Imperium of Mankind and in the galaxy. Necrons tried to land on Mars, their ships were vaporized in seconds they landed. Tyranids can do some damage but they would quickly lose more biomass then they can regain.
If they ever arrive it will be a complete loss for them.
Yes so was Gryphonne IV and Macragge and on Iyanden the Eldar had to revive its dead just to win....Oh and not to mention we are thirving on Octavia (Home world of the Orks)
Just one of those little plot points thrown in to generate discussion. It's never going to happen.
Anyway, the smart thing to do is to bleed the Imperium of resources. Attack all f the outlying planets and systems, drawing out their defensive might and crippling their ability to reinforce themselves. By the time you actually reach Terra, there won't be much left defending it.
-Loki- wrote:Just one of those little plot points thrown in to generate discussion. It's never going to happen.
Indeed, why would you attack a planet that's basically been built as a the most massive Fortress in the Galaxy, with no biomass, full of angry swarming Marines, Titans, Sisters, and the more powerful Psyker in the galaxy.
Commissar41.0 wrote: Yes so was Gryphonne IV and Macragge and on Iyanden the Eldar had to revive its dead just to win....Oh and not to mention we are thirving on Octavia (Home world of the Orks)
Coolyo294 wrote:Terra is infinitely better defended then Macragge or Gryphonne IV.
Alexzandvar wrote:Attacking Terra, I will say again, would be the biggest waste of Biomass ever.
I think that even the Tyranids would think five times before they go toward Terra. Here we can see only ships and orbital platforms, and only Terra. Not Mars or Titan or Saturn moons or Pluto etc...
Lets assume the nids are going to terra not for the biomass as much but for the psychic beacon there. Nids win or lose in space, the ground battle is almost meanless if space cant be won.
And thanks to Terra's unique place of power in the imperium, the resources the nids would have to throw to win the space battle would be immense for basicly no profit--save if eating the emperor makes some kind of new super-bug.
I think the bigger problem lies in the new method of travel the bugs employ, where magic gravity that wrecks planets preceeds the nid arrival. The magic gravity damage would be the real problem facing the Sol system, as even if the space battle is won without a single casualty Terra, Mars, Jupiter, ect will all be damaged.
Joey wrote:Because every GW race is vastly more powerful than all the others. It's almost as if they're a company trying to make profits rather than develop a coherent backstory.
Alright, everyone buzzkillington here has just revealed something I don't think any of us have ever known.
Yes, we know there are plot holes and messed up fluff so they can make money. However I still like discussing fluff. Its interesting, and I love the 40k universe. I'm not really sure why people feel the need to make posts like this.
Anyway, back on topic.
The hive mind is not stupid. It won't throw itself into terra blindly. It will starve them out. Without the support of the other planets for resources and troops they will die due to attrition. Hell, they do.t even have their own water on terra!
DevianID wrote:
I think the bigger problem lies in the new method of travel the bugs employ, where magic gravity that wrecks planets preceeds the nid arrival. The magic gravity damage would be the real problem facing the Sol system, as even if the space battle is won without a single casualty Terra, Mars, Jupiter, ect will all be damaged.
It's presumably not actually hugely damaging seeing as how Macragge, for instance, seems to have recovered.
xXSir MontyXx wrote:The hive mind is not stupid. It won't throw itself into terra blindly. It will starve them out. Without the support of the other planets for resources and troops they will die due to attrition. Hell, they do.t even have their own water on terra!
The Hive Mind is pretty stupid at times. It does seem to have a tendency to attack heavily defended locations when there are more biomass rich and less defended locations they could munch on, and that's not taking the luring affect of the Astronomicon into account.
Any possible attack would be proceeded by pioneer organisms. Gene stealer lurking on the black ships. Frozen shock troopers hiding inside of the ice delivery. Highly deadly and mutative creatures that are "being studied" on mars. (Dose the admech study the nids?) All acting as sleeper agents undermining terras defenses. By the time any actual fleet arrives, things won't be in destroy a necron shape.
Warrior Squirrel wrote:If the Nids reach Terra the other planets would already have been eaten.
Exactly. Terra is not a self-sufficient world. The forces defending it require supplies. If the rest of the Imperium fell, Terra would slowly weaken and then eventually succumb to invasion as its defences crumbled.
I actually want to run a campaign with an old friend who has an Ultramarine army about returning to Macragge. Unfortunately, he lives too far away now.
In the initial fluff when Macragge was attacked, the nids didnt have the magic gravity damage, though they did retcon it in. Also, Macragge isnt covered in buildings like Terra is. I can see a book falling in the holy vault causing a lockdown of the vault for 10 years for example as rituals and rites are performed allowing someone to pick it back up and place it on the shelf.
What happens if a brick falls on the golden throne for example? The terror felt by the imperium could birth a new chaos god of fear, even if the brick doesnt hit the emperor.
The fact that Macragge and Iyanden are still standing (even if only barely) while the hive fleets that attacked them practically cease to exist, pretty much acts as definitive fact that the Tyranids would never be able to crack open Terra. It's simply beyond their ability. The Necrons, if fully united, could possibly do it. The Orks, if fully united (as in, every ork in the galaxy under one waaagh), could possibly do it. No other faction could, though.
I don't consider Chaos Daemons a faction, honestly.
Its made pretty clear in the fluff that the only competition the Tyranids have for reaching Terra are the Orks. No other race has the numbers. Its mentioned before that the Orks would've already taken over the galaxy if not for their infighting.
Tyranids have only 1 purpose and 1 leader, unlike the Orks, plus the hive fleets we've seen seem to be the tip of the iceberg, numbers-wise.
What's interesting to me is what abandon will so when he finally reaches Terra after the tyranids have consumed it.... lol.
The Emperor's Palace took a solid month of titan bombardments during the Horus Heresy to so much as get inside the thing... exterminatus class ships were blotting out the sky and if it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield the Imperium may have fallen. The Nids could perhaps produce what you are saying to get there but that was when a betrayal from unseen enemies of the Ruinous powers turned the Imperium in on itself... hate to say it but as vast as the Nids may be destroyed the entire galaxy would be a lot harder than they realize. Not to mention even if you have been normally it simply takes diverting Nids to an orkish home world to delay you long enough to exterminatus the planet we were both on causing you to regroup and thus space marine cruisers to track you down in space and obliterate you.
I get that you are attracted to this idea your race will devour all the 40k universe but even if fluff was advanced in ways to tell storylines, no way are GW allowing the golden boys out of the fight. IF ANYTHING somehow someone would find some ANCEINT weapon or they'd fire something similar to the pyschic scourge of Space Marine and pop all the beautiful heads synapses creatures. All and all i think you will need to reside yourself to being seen a powerful threat to the Imperium that could be dealt with but honestly isn't worth the investment to them. Like a roach you can never get them all.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:If it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield the Imperium may have fallen.
Telling that and totally forgetting three Astartes Legions rushing toward Terra ( Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Ultramarines ) that would tip the balance and win the war.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: if it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield
Not sure if trolling.
Horus dropped the shields because the siege had gone overwhelmingly bad for him and his doom (ie Space Wolves and Dark Angels) were on the way. It was a desperate ploy to win now rather than retreat into a hellishly protracted engagement.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: if it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield
Not sure if trolling.
Horus dropped the shields because the siege had gone overwhelmingly bad for him and his doom (ie Space Wolves and Dark Angels) were on the way. It was a desperate ploy to win now rather than retreat into a hellishly protracted engagement.
The last time I read about the siege in Codex, I could have sworn it said something to the affect of "No one is sure why exactly Horus decided to lower his void shields. Perhaps it was to better see his oncoming victory blah blah blah". Point being, from my understanding, Horus was kicking Terra's ass and lowered his void shields for unknown reasons.
If what you're saying is true, that he did it for some... desperate ploy, though I don't see how lowering his void shields would help at all, then I guess that's cool. Personally, I've always liked the idea of an Eldar strikeforce sabotaging them.
Brother Coa wrote:One of 3 tendrils of Leviathan is going straight for Terra, it will arrive when GW wants to present it in a new apocalypse battle, or novel or worlds campaign.
If Tyranids attack Terra they will lose very badly. Terra is the most heavily defended planet in the Imperium of Mankind and in the galaxy. Necrons tried to land on Mars, their ships were vaporized in seconds they landed. Tyranids can do some damage but they would quickly lose more biomass then they can regain.
If they ever arrive it will be a complete loss for them.
for now. the tendrils that poised towards an Ork Empire of Octarius (which actually 'rigged' by Inquisitor Kryptmann) has a good tendancy to be a global campaign. the war is not over.... yet.
his original plan is to pit the two most dangerous xenos (as he evaluated) against each other. too bad Eldar seemed to found the traces of Kryptmann's activity . and decided to hit the Imperial world hoping to kill the Inquisitor (and save their dwindling numbers)
now the war is Fatal four way... there maybe someone else that might join the fray.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote: if it were not for Horus' foolishness in dropping his void shield
Not sure if trolling.
Horus dropped the shields because the siege had gone overwhelmingly bad for him and his doom (ie Space Wolves and Dark Angels) were on the way. It was a desperate ploy to win now rather than retreat into a hellishly protracted engagement.
not trolling reading almost directly from the codex chaos space marines
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, yes i am not mentioning them because the same tactic would have been done against the nids. I am just underlining the only real way ANYONE has gotten to Terra was from turning the Imperium in on itself where friend became enemy and the Imperium was hardly able to defend itself in any way shape or form from being severed in half, even then it was a heavy challenge.
I think, it would be benifitail for the tyranid fleet to attack Tera. As it has so been stated, you have the ad mech to fight off, they are the only ones who would give very little bio mass. When the space marines and Imperial Guard finaly respond, it will be like ordering a pizza, the nids just have to pose a threat and tip the delivery man.
Hive Mind going after Terra would not necessarily be stupid. Take out Terra and the Imperium's ability to defend its worlds crumbles.
Genestealer infiltrations probably have already discovered the link between Terra and the greater Imperium. Because of this the Hive Mind likely knows Terra is the lynchpin which holds humanity together, and without it their race can feast upon humanity with near impunity.
Think of it as a Biomass "investment". They sacrifice a good deal to take out Terra, but then reap far more later.
Harriticus wrote:Hive Mind going after Terra would not necessarily be stupid. Take out Terra and the Imperium's ability to defend its worlds crumbles.
Genestealer infiltrations probably have already discovered the link between Terra and the greater Imperium. Because of this the Hive Mind likely knows Terra is the lynchpin which holds humanity together, and without it their race can feast upon humanity with near impunity.
Think of it as a Biomass "investment". They sacrifice a good deal to take out Terra, but then reap far more later.
considerable investments, not sure it's worth it cause every nid builds a tide. Not to mention it would take months to get to Terra which is incredibly adequate time for the mobilzation of the imperial forces of all branches needed to bleed the nids dry.
broodstar wrote:@Commisser41.0 There are a few things wrong with your time table. The Tyranids overwhelm by shear number. Now whie the Tyranids are in interspace they are dormant, but alive and since they are alive they still need to be fed. That's why the attacks don't go straight for the target, they have to stop and eat worlds in order to refill there stores.
In order to understand Tyranid Tactics you have got to put yourself into the mind of a social predator. Let's say a Tyranid Hivefleet is a Lion and the Imperium is a Buffalo. Each Hivefleet has arrived piecemeal, they strike a different part of the galactic plane, just like a Lion starts the hunt. First, one and then another and then another, each time the Buffalo outruns or fights off a Lion it gets more tired and weaker. Finally, six, eight, ten show up and it's taken down for the kill.
So far, six have attacked and another four have been detected. Remeber that even though a fleet has been defeated it can still re-emerge. No one in the Imperium knows how many fleets that there are total. And the Hivemind still hasn't shown up yet, it will only show up in the final stages of the invasion.
The Tyranid invasion of Terra is still along way off.
It mentions in the codex that the scale of the dids is larger than one might think. I belive it states the hive fleets are actually part of one single tyranid swarm entity. there fore it would be perfectly possible for the nids to combine some, or even all the hive fleets to sqare their chance of survival.
Harriticus wrote:Hive Mind going after Terra would not necessarily be stupid. Take out Terra and the Imperium's ability to defend its worlds crumbles.
Hive Mind going after Terra would be incredibly stupid, because the Hive Mind would get the gak kicked out of it.
Tyranids couldn't even take out Macragge or Iyanden. What chance could they possibly have against Terra.
Are we talking Terra now, or Terra one hundred years after the Tyranids have eaten the rest of the Imperium and Terra hasn't been visited by a supply ship for a century?
The same could apply to any faction of course. Terra may be all but invulnerable, but if the rest of the Imperium goes Terra goes down with it.
Xyptc wrote:
Are we talking Terra now, or Terra one hundred years after the Tyranids have eaten the rest of the Imperium and Terra hasn't been visited by a supply ship for a century?
Good idea. When these Terrans get hungry, send the nids in...
Do they still taste like chicken?
Harriticus wrote:Hive Mind going after Terra would not necessarily be stupid. Take out Terra and the Imperium's ability to defend its worlds crumbles.
Hive Mind going after Terra would be incredibly stupid, because the Hive Mind would get the gak kicked out of it.
Tyranids couldn't even take out Macragge or Iyanden. What chance could they possibly have against Terra.
Are we talking Terra now, or Terra one hundred years after the Tyranids have eaten the rest of the Imperium and Terra hasn't been visited by a supply ship for a century?
The same could apply to any faction of course. Terra may be all but invulnerable, but if the rest of the Imperium goes Terra goes down with it.
The nids have been around for more than a few thousand years in the galactic dates of 40k, ... i really wish nid players would see they aren't going to eat the Galaxy so easily when everyone has an invested reason to fight them... EVERYONE.
Chaos would sooner kill the nids than allow them to take their 10,000 year long plotted prize
Orks would fight because the nids start thinking they are better then the orks!
Eldar would fight because the Imperium of Man has become too paramount to their plans
Dark Eldar.... well they might not but then again without the ability to inflict suffering on others it might be perferable that lazy weak humans are their prey rather than tyranids (i know which i would prefer for easy torture)
Tau, considering they are on the eastern fringe of space may not get involved but it would come to reason that since many nids in the past have attacked the tau they would probably trod over them and the tau wouldn't compromise on their territory unless it's the only avenue
IG & Space Marines = ...lol come on we know they would blot out the sun with their various ships and will to fight the nids to the last in defense of terra (no way you could weed them all out before decapitating the head of the IOM, if you did others would take advantage of the power vacuum)
Ultimately the nids are a horrendous threat to the IOM but if they plan to devoure and kill terra it better be in terms almost as long as Chaos has taken.... which the nids are a more instinctive based army (not to say they aren't tactical) it just means they are alot shorter sighted than the Imperium might be.
I think it's a shiny piece of fluff saying if nids got the chance they would consume terra and the astronomicon which is fair to say most aliens and outsiders would as well.
Xyptc wrote:
Are we talking Terra now, or Terra one hundred years after the Tyranids have eaten the rest of the Imperium and Terra hasn't been visited by a supply ship for a century?
The same could apply to any faction of course. Terra may be all but invulnerable, but if the rest of the Imperium goes Terra goes down with it.
If the Tyranids beat the Imperium they beat the Imperium, but that's fairly obvious. That's not really relevant though. The question asked was why don't the Tyranids attack Terra from 'underneath' the galactic plane when it looks so easy to do so. The fact is it isn't easy to do so, and even if the Tyranids reached there before Imperial forces intercepted the fleet, the Tyranids would struggle to consume Terra.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:The nids have been around for more than a few thousand years in the galactic dates of 40k, ... i really wish nid players would see they aren't going to eat the Galaxy so easily when everyone has an invested reason to fight them... EVERYONE.
Chaos would sooner kill the nids than allow them to take their 10,000 year long plotted prize
Orks would fight because the nids start thinking they are better then the orks!
Eldar would fight because the Imperium of Man has become too paramount to their plans
Dark Eldar.... well they might not but then again without the ability to inflict suffering on others it might be perferable that lazy weak humans are their prey rather than tyranids (i know which i would prefer for easy torture)
Tau, considering they are on the eastern fringe of space may not get involved but it would come to reason that since many nids in the past have attacked the tau they would probably trod over them and the tau wouldn't compromise on their territory unless it's the only avenue
IG & Space Marines = ...lol come on we know they would blot out the sun with their various ships and will to fight the nids to the last in defense of terra (no way you could weed them all out before decapitating the head of the IOM, if you did others would take advantage of the power vacuum) .
Except only the Imperium has taken any pro-active measures to actually combat them.
There's no fluff about say, Black Crusades against a Hive Fleet, no Waaghs specifically against a hive fleet, no Tau expansions fighting them off, no Craftworlds plunging into a fight with a hive fleet, etc. So far, Tau has only fought against them defensively after a hive fleet hit their empire, Chaos has pretty much ignored them, Orks are only in a war with them because an Inquisitor redirected a small part of Leviathan into a large Ork empire. Dark Eldar are just raiding them for meat for their arenas and experiments, and Necrons still aren't doing much of anything. The Eldar are using old technology to burn worlds to bare bedrock, which accomplishes nothing but biomass denial, and also denial of a habitable planet for themselves.
Guess what? The Tyranid codexes say the same thing. Tyranids are the enemy of everyone, this isn't anything new. It's only worth pointing out that the Tyranids are the enemy of everyone if everyone drops their current spats and does something about them. So far, only the Imperium and Eldar have taken an active stance on trying to halt them, and they aren't doing it very successfully.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Ultimately the nids are a horrendous threat to the IOM but if they plan to devoure and kill terra it better be in terms almost as long as Chaos has taken.... which the nids are a more instinctive based army (not to say they aren't tactical) it just means they are alot shorter sighted than the Imperium might be.
I think it's a shiny piece of fluff saying if nids got the chance they would consume terra and the astronomicon which is fair to say most aliens and outsiders would as well.
The piece of fluff says that they are attracted to the astronomican. Why wouldn't they be? The hive mind is a warp entity, and the astronomican is like a huge light house in the warp. However, Tyranids attack worlds when they have learned about them from their vanguard organisms. They avoid worlds not worth attacking. If their vanguards are constantly killed before they even reach Terra, they'd ignore it until a vanguard force got through - no sense wasting masses of biomass on what might be a wild goose chase.
And even then, when they learn about Terra, they'd likely still ignore it. There's an immensely powerful psychic human on Terra? They have their own immensely psychic creatures. He's immortal? So is the hive mind already. What's that? The entire biosphere is gone, and it's a giant city? Yeah, that's a planet not worth investing in. Even with normal planetary defenses, they'd lose more biomass than they gain attacking Terra.
-Loki- wrote:There's no fluff about say, Black Crusades against a Hive Fleet, no Waaghs specifically against a hive fleet, no Tau expansions fighting them off, no Craftworlds plunging into a fight with a hive fleet, etc. So far, Tau has only fought against them defensively after a hive fleet hit their empire, Chaos has pretty much ignored them, Orks are only in a war with them because an Inquisitor redirected a small part of Leviathan into a large Ork empire. Dark Eldar are just raiding them for meat for their arenas and experiments, and Necrons still aren't doing much of anything. The Eldar are using old technology to burn worlds to bare bedrock, which accomplishes nothing but biomass denial, and also denial of a habitable planet for themselves.
Correct I agree with you, No one will do anything cause terra isn't in mortal danger in the least at this time. Far as Chaos, i'd be hard pressed to believe that Abbadon would let anyone else take his Vengeance on the Emperor. If anything he'd let the nids do the job for him and at the last moment come in with overwhelming force declaring a new Black Crusade at the moment the Imperium would break apart and fall like the true opportunists that they are. Which i think would be pretty simple cause if the Nids are dead set on making it to Terra they will take heavy losses but I think they could it would just be hard to stand against the custodians.
The Orks aren't into declaring war as much as declaring fun, I would say the nids would have to tango with the orks in a major way before even considering Terra a viable option because of how much space the orks own. No Waaaghs have been declared on the Nids mostly cause that would involving chasing down their hivefleets, just like orks don't really declare Waaghs on eldar or dark eldar mostly due to their vagrant nature and possessing few home worlds. However we know for a fact a Waagh is starting against the hive fleet that collided with the Orkish empire (forget the name right now) which was engineered by the IOM and that hasn't been moving swiftly and given the Imperium what it needs to protect against Leviathan.
Eldar Will get involved if the IOM is going to fall if not before, we we agreed on this so moving on
Dark Eldar ... meh i think they would probably remain... less than interested but have a reason to consider it.
Necrons on the other hand i am unsure about old school fluff says they would inadvertently help the IOM if Mars was still important to them as Void Dragon might conceivably still be there and not a shard.
the Tau would take defensive action till the nid threat passed and probably rapidly expand in the wake of their momentum.
Lastly remember the Ultramarines are simply a chapter of 1000 marines which irradicated an entire hive Fleet. Events like Armageddon called in INCREDIBLY heavier numbers to halt the advance of the orks from both IG, Space Marines and PDF. Look, i'd like to see the IOM fall too but their fluff is pretty solid in stopping the nid advance time and time again through countless tactics and worlds well before Terra was even considered a primary threat. Since all space travel relies on the Astronomican, the object of the OP's interest all the IOM will stand to protect it and the ideals of The Emperor of Mankind.
That's all i got, I would have to hear of a multiple hive fleets working in unison or of size beyond even nid scales to think it possible.
We already concluded this: only force in the galaxy that can take Terra down are Orks ( if they unite ) and Necrons ( if they unite to ), and even they would have big losses from witch they would need long time to recover.
We can't tell for sure how many Tyranids they are there. It can be their entire race coming, or it can be that LEvithian is the last Hive Fleet that will ever enter the galaxy ( I am talking about Levithian, Behemot and Kraken beign the "main body" of Tyranid race while all otehrs are splinters ). But as it is stated, Terra in not alone, entire Sol System is liek one big fortress. I can assume that PDF of Pluto ( in FW Intro we can see that Pluto is Hive World, same may go for Mercury and Saturn and Titan moons ) and other worlds in Sol System would send their force and naval forces to aid. Jupiter is one big shipyard, on Mars in the entire Mechanicus wit hit's Titan Legions etc...
Whoever attack Sol can only except defeat, even if they cut it off they will still have trouble defeating it.
There's no fluff about say, Black Crusades against a Hive Fleet, no Waaghs specifically against a hive fleet, no Tau expansions fighting them off, no Craftworlds plunging into a fight with a hive fleet, etc.
The Orks require a leader to unite under and then declare a Waagh! A Waagh! is unlikely to be oriented against a fleet of any sort - they go for planets. They're more than happy to fight Tyranids as they come across them, though. The Silent King of the Necrons is trying to unite the Necrons specifically against the Tyranids.Craftworlds do in actual fact going to battle against Hive Fleets - Malan'tai and a couple of others (one I think was Idharae? The one that later got taken out by the Invaders Chapter) allied against Hive Fleet Naga (I think it was that one) and wiped it out.
In all honesty, I'd say that the lack of coordination against them suggests that they're not about to consume the galaxy. Everyone can still afford to fight eachother and against the Tyranids because the Tyranids just aren't on the cusp of victory.
They avoid worlds not worth attacking
And yet they still attack worlds that result in their destruction. Ignoring their defeats, what's the worth of a Forgeworld? The biomass they gain will not replenish their losses. How much of a Craftworld can they actually consume? The Hive Mind really just wants to eat everything. It doesn't have some plan to ignore fortress worlds and just go for easy pickings. It attacks almost everything in its path.
There's an immensely powerful psychic human on Terra? They have their own immensely psychic creatures.
The Emperor's probably more powerful than any of the Tyranids (not counting the Hive Mind since I'm still not sure if that's actually supposed to be an entity).
considerable investments, not sure it's worth it cause every nid builds a tide. Not to mention it would take months to get to Terra which is incredibly adequate time for the mobilzation of the imperial forces of all branches needed to bleed the nids dry.
Just a small nitpick.
I believe that Hive fleet Leviathan is described as coming from "under" the galactic plane.
Theoretically, a large Hive fleet could "sneak up" on Terra. Unless however, the Ordo Xenos recognise the signs of the Narval's gravity well.
I believe that Hive fleet Leviathan is described as coming from "under" the galactic plane.
Theoretically, a large Hive fleet could "sneak up" on Terra. Unless however, the Ordo Xenos recognise the signs of the Narval's gravity well.
Iranna.
You are right, Leviathan is attacking from "below" rather then from side.
But I think that they already know that one tendril is going toward Terra, as Blood Angels know that the last one is going toward Baal.
But I am still waiting to see will they choose to oppose them on some world that is in their way or will they allow Tyranids to reach Sol and then blast it away with Sol Navy?
You are right, Leviathan is attacking from "below" rather then from side.
But I think that they already know that one tendril is going toward Terra, as Blood Angels know that the last one is going toward Baal.
But I am still waiting to see will they choose to oppose them on some world that is in their way or will they allow Tyranids to reach Sol and then blast it away with Sol Navy?
Brother Cia
Indeed. However, one would assume that the Hive Mind would commit an extremely large presence if it were ever to assault Terra, we're talking billions, possibly trillions, of Bio-ships. I don't even think the Sol navy could withstand it.
I love how your attempt to be facetious was sullied by your inability to spell your own username right.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The Orks require a leader to unite under and then declare a Waagh! A Waagh! is unlikely to be oriented against a fleet of any sort - they go for planets. They're more than happy to fight Tyranids as they come across them, though. The Silent King of the Necrons is trying to unite the Necrons specifically against the Tyranids.Craftworlds do in actual fact going to battle against Hive Fleets - Malan'tai and a couple of others (one I think was Idharae? The one that later got taken out by the Invaders Chapter) allied against Hive Fleet Naga (I think it was that one) and wiped it out.
And yet, Malan'tai was wiped out. Losing a minor hive fleet isn't a blow to the Tyranids. Plenty arise even just from splinter fleets as well as new fleets arriving. The loss of an entire craftworld is huge, especially since Tyranids are fighting a war of attrition, which Eldar can't.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:In all honesty, I'd say that the lack of coordination against them suggests that they're not about to consume the galaxy. Everyone can still afford to fight eachother and against the Tyranids because the Tyranids just aren't on the cusp of victory.
No enemy is on the cusp of victory, but Tyranids ar ebetter placed than any besides Chaos. Tau are so tiny, on the galactic map they are a little 'you are here' arrow pointing to a tiny dot. Dark Eldar are basically just raiders. Eldar are scattered, few and shrinking. Necrons are waking up, and the Silent King is trying to rally them. Orks are very widespread, but lack focus.
Tyranids are here, focused, driven and single minded. After Orks, they're by far the most numerous alien race. Their defeats have been momentary - Behemoth and Kraken were simply broken into splinter fleets, the majority of Leviathan is still on the rampage and doing untold destruction (the loss of Gryphonne IV is a pretty severe blow). More and more planets are simply being subjected to Exterminatus or burned by the Eldar to simply deny biomass rather than actually try to defeat them. Then there's more actual new hive fleets arriving. Moloch is quite large - almost as big as Behemoth was, and emerging between Behemoth and Kraken, as well as other minor hive fleets like Scylla, Charybdis and others arriving.
They really are the 'Threat Without', the massive alien threat to accompany the 'Threat Within', Chaos.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:And yet they still attack worlds that result in their destruction. Ignoring their defeats, what's the worth of a Forgeworld? The biomass they gain will not replenish their losses. How much of a Craftworld can they actually consume? The Hive Mind really just wants to eat everything. It doesn't have some plan to ignore fortress worlds and just go for easy pickings. It attacks almost everything in its path.
Everyone loses a battle sometimes.
The biomass they gain very much replenishes their losses. I wish I could find it - there was an article GW did that was a magoc biologis talking about the amount of biomass stripped from a single planet being far more than a hive fleet could conceivably carry, and theorised is was sent back to a massively large hive fleet waiting outside the galaxy. Either way, stripping the biosphere of a planet far, far exceeds what they expend to take a world, and in the vicotries, they regain their dead as well.
What's the worth of a Forgeworld? Massive worth. Every Forgeworld holds secrets of technology on it knows, and the loss of an entire Forgeworld is a crippling blow. The loss of a habitable planet to the Imperium is a crippling blow - it represents thousands of years of colonisation and industry supplying the Imperium with resources that needs to be started all over again.
The Hive Mind definitely does ignore anything not worth investing in. Again, this is the entire point of vanguard organisms (Genestealers and Lictors). They send them out probe-droid like in every direction all the time. They land on planets, assess the planet, and send a psychic beacon out telling the Tyranid race what's there. They send a tendril out to have a crack at the planet. This is why they avoid Tomb worlds - they're generally barren deserts. No biosphere to harvest.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:The Emperor's probably more powerful than any of the Tyranids (not counting the Hive Mind since I'm still not sure if that's actually supposed to be an entity).
'Psychic entity'. It's basically the psychic footprint of the entire Tyranid race in the warp. Sure, the Emperor is massively powerful, but Tyranids draw their power from the hive mind, which itself is powerful enough to block the Astronomican. Tyrandis have massively powerful psychics covered.
I believe that Hive fleet Leviathan is described as coming from "under" the galactic plane.
Theoretically, a large Hive fleet could "sneak up" on Terra. Unless however, the Ordo Xenos recognise the signs of the Narval's gravity well.
Iranna.
You are right, Leviathan is attacking from "below" rather then from side.
But I think that they already know that one tendril is going toward Terra, as Blood Angels know that the last one is going toward Baal.
But I am still waiting to see will they choose to oppose them on some world that is in their way or will they allow Tyranids to reach Sol and then blast it away with Sol Navy?
I don't believe that they're going for Terra right away. Terra is undoubtedly one of their goals. But the Tyranids have time and again shown intelligent traits past the fluff. Going all-out on reckless behavior, i belive, the Hive Mind has learned NOT to repeat, as such actions has lost them great battles in the past.
If the Tyranids are to conquer the galaxy, their best bet is to continue what fluff suggests, that Leviathan is doing "as we speak": Collecting (and amassing) biomass.
Terra may be the most well-defended planet in the Galaxy. But it's only one planet amongst an unfathomable amount of planets. While focusing all your forces into a single large blow might win you an immediate victory, a prolonged resource gathering-strategy goes a longer way. They may lose a battle here and there from not focusing their strengths. But it's all while the rest of their army is getting stronger by each planet they encounter and consume.
I'm unsure if whether or not the Tyranids might gather enough biomass to launch a solid attack against Terra itself. But if they're victorious against the Orks, they'll emergy much more powerful than ever before (i think). If this would show eccifient enough to take on Terra, however, i strongly doubt. But if they (The Hive Mind) don't grow too arrogant or reckless, and keeps scattering the Tyranid forces to amass biomass, the threat keeps on growing, and they may eventually grow strong enough...
Iranna wrote:
I believe that Hive fleet Leviathan is described as coming from "under" the galactic plane.
Terra has planets 'below' and 'above' it on the galactic plane, and Tyranid Hive Fleets are much slower than the fleets of other (or at the least of the major) factions. There should easily be enough time to identify it.
Indeed. However, one would assume that the Hive Mind would commit an extremely large presence if it were ever to assault Terra, we're talking billions, possibly trillions, of Bio-ships. I don't even think the Sol navy could withstand it.
The Imperium would do the same though, and would be using some of the most destructive technology that it possesses (some of which the Tyranids won't have encountered (and as such adapted for) before).
-Loki- wrote:And yet, Malan'tai was wiped out. Losing a minor hive fleet isn't a blow to the Tyranids. Plenty arise even just from splinter fleets as well as new fleets arriving. The loss of an entire craftworld is huge, especially since Tyranids are fighting a war of attrition, which Eldar can't.
It still proves they go to battle against Hive Fleets. Hopefully, other Craftworlds will learn the lesson of defending the Infinity Circuit (seriously? One of the things most important to the Eldar and they choose to protect architecture before it and their ancestors' souls? They view a highly Psychic creature as less dangerous than Venomthropes and such? That background was atrocious) rather than their halls. What happened to the Warp Spiders, anyway? Oh well. How many 'minor' Hive Fleets are there? Half a dozen? The splinter fleets are presumably much smaller. I'd say it's still a blow.
No enemy is on the cusp of victory, but Tyranids ar ebetter placed than any besides Chaos. Tau are so tiny, on the galactic map they are a little 'you are here' arrow pointing to a tiny dot. Dark Eldar are basically just raiders. Eldar are scattered, few and shrinking. Necrons are waking up, and the Silent King is trying to rally them. Orks are very widespread, but lack focus.
I didn't say they weren't. But they're not about to upset the galactic order any more than the forces of Chaos do.
Their defeats have been momentary - Behemoth and Kraken were simply broken into splinter fleets, the majority of Leviathan is still on the rampage and doing untold destruction (the loss of Gryphonne IV is a pretty severe blow).
Much of those two fleets was destroyed. Not wholly, but they might never recover. Leviathan is busy doing various things and i'm not quite sure how much of it hit the Ork Empire.
More and more planets are simply being subjected to Exterminatus or burned by the Eldar to simply deny biomass rather than actually try to defeat them.
Not just to deny biomass. They generally wait for the Tyranids to lose as much of their force as possible taking the world and then exterminate it.
Then there's more actual new hive fleets arriving.
Yep. But we don't know how many. They may actually be losing this war with the Imperium (and the rest of the galaxy).
Everyone loses a battle sometimes.
Still proves that they attack worlds that aren't worth it.
I wish I could find it - there was an article GW did that was a magoc biologis talking about the amount of biomass stripped from a single planet being far more than a hive fleet could conceivably carry, and theorised is was sent back to a massively large hive fleet waiting outside the galaxy.
How would they send back that biomass. As far as I know, they can't Psychically transmit it and there's been nothing about them forming convoy lines so that Magos is probably wrong.
Every Forgeworld holds secrets of technology on it knows
It shouldn't do. All the technology is supposed to be sent to Mars. Although I'm not sure why the designs for the 'Vanquisher' cannon were lost if Mars has a copy.
Yes, losing Forgeworlds is damaging, but taking one does not provide much biomass.
The Hive Mind definitely does ignore anything not worth investing in. Again, this is the entire point of vanguard organisms (Genestealers and Lictors). They send them out probe-droid like in every direction all the time. They land on planets, assess the planet, and send a psychic beacon out telling the Tyranid race what's there. They send a tendril out to have a crack at the planet. This is why they avoid Tomb worlds - they're generally barren deserts. No biosphere to harvest.
Then why attack such heavily fortified planets that may well result in the destruction of the Hive Fleet? The Genestealers are a guide. I doubt they get to every single planet and breed in sufficient numbers before the Hive Mind comes. The Tomb worlds that were avoided were if I recall correctly avoided to a massive degree. It wasn't just course correction They were avoiding something. For the record, the Tomb worlds being safe from Tyranids no longer applies. One of the Necron Dynasties was devastated by Tyranid incursions (not sure why they went down to the actual Tomb though).
'Psychic entity'. It's basically the psychic footprint of the entire Tyranid race in the warp. Sure, the Emperor is massively powerful, but Tyranids draw their power from the hive mind, which itself is powerful enough to block the Astronomican. Tyrandis have massively powerful psychics covered.
Which is not a being. Isn't the Shadow in the Warp effectively generated by static? The communication of all the billions of Tyranid organisms?
Getting tired of seeing, we beat them at Macarage we will do it again. As it has been pointed out Terra has far more forces than the Ultramarine home world. So why would anyone, try to attack a world with the same sized force that was defeated on a world with a fraction of the first's defencive forces.
IF the nids attack Terra, its will have to be all out to even have a chance of success.
Problem: how are the tyranids going to get underneath terra without a worlds gravity well to manipulate to pull them into possition?
I still believe it all comes down to how EAGER the Tyranids (or the Hive Mind if you prefer) are to consume Terra. It's far from unheard of, that the Tyranids are capable of adapting. And by now, it has been suggested that it is exactly what they're doing. They've tried all-out frontal attacks, and that didn't work. And as fluff suggests with Leviathan, the Tyranids are more carefully, systematically collecting biomass from far and wide.
By my logic, they don't really NEED to take on Terra. If they keep on invigorating their fleets, they'll become more and more capable of consuming larger prey.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Much of those two fleets was destroyed. Not wholly, but they might never recover.
Read the rulebook, the boxout 'the threat without' in the rulebook. It clarifies that only a few tendrils of Kraken and Behemoth were defeated, and the majority is still out there.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Not just to deny biomass. They generally wait for the Tyranids to lose as much of their force as possible taking the world and then exterminate it.
The 5th edition codex specifically states the Eldars method of bruning entire worlds is simply to deny biomass. It's a dumb tactic.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Yep. But we don't know how many. They may actually be losing this war with the Imperium (and the rest of the galaxy).
And the Imperium might not have the resources to counter another mojor hive fleet.
I can baselessly speculate too.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Still proves that they attack worlds that aren't worth it.
No, it just proves they can underestimate the defense of a planet and not commit enough.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:How would they send back that biomass. As far as I know, they can't Psychically transmit it and there's been nothing about them forming convoy lines so that Magos is probably wrong.
Hive ships arrive and drink up the harvested biomass through cappillary towers. There aren't enough storage hive ships that the Imperium has seen in a hive fleet to actually hold what is harvested from a single planet. The biomass is going somewhere.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It shouldn't do. All the technology is supposed to be sent to Mars. Although I'm not sure why the designs for the 'Vanquisher' cannon were lost if Mars has a copy.
Not at all. Different Forgeworlds often hide secret designs even from Mars to ensure they are the only Forge that can make them. The Mechancus is just as fractured as the Imperium. There's like, 3 Forgeworlds that can make the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Gryphonne IV was one of them. Now there's one less.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Yes, losing Forgeworlds is damaging, but taking one does not provide much biomass.
Again, it hurts the Imperium in other ways. Plus, Forgeworlds are generall rich in minerals - Tyranids take those as well.
Which is not a being. Isn't the Shadow in the Warp effectively generated by static? The communication of all the billions of Tyranid organisms?
Entity is what is used to describe it. It is, however, sentient. it's a collective consiousness. It sits in the warp - proven by Tigerius being able to 'read' it. The Shadow is an even bigger warp disturbance generated by the hive mind.
Just because a forge world does not have lush jungles. Doesn't mean the Tyranid lose Bio mass. If the Tyranid take a planet they break even no matter what. All dead Tyranid are re-absorbed and made into Tyranid again.
Not to mention the eat the very atmosphere of planets as well. That is an unbelievable amount of resources in itself.
Iranna wrote:
Indeed. However, one would assume that the Hive Mind would commit an extremely large presence if it were ever to assault Terra, we're talking billions, possibly trillions, of Bio-ships. I don't even think the Sol navy could withstand it.
That is true, I would assume that then the IN woudl let them get close to the planet so that defensive platforms can shoot some of them down. And I am sure that Eldar will hep the Imperium, being that Altansar in already near Sol System an wait.
I love how your attempt to be facetious was sullied by your inability to spell your own username right.
Iranna.
That is because mt keyboard won't listen to me and because I type really fast and make mistakes. I am not trying to make fun of you but to support you, some people don't like the idea of singing your post so I am sinning to, to show my support.
Brother Coa
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alexzandvar wrote:
You misspelled your name.
Just wanted to point that out...............
Heres a pony.
I have eyes but thanks.
And I HATE pony's, they are servants of Slaanesh and must be exterminated.
We already concluded this: only force in the galaxy that can take Terra down are Orks ( if they unite ) and Necrons ( if they unite to ), and even they would have big losses from witch they would need long time to recover.
We can't tell for sure how many Tyranids they are there. It can be their entire race coming, or it can be that LEvithian is the last Hive Fleet that will ever enter the galaxy ( I am talking about Levithian, Behemot and Kraken beign the "main body" of Tyranid race while all otehrs are splinters ). But as it is stated, Terra in not alone, entire Sol System is liek one big fortress. I can assume that PDF of Pluto ( in FW Intro we can see that Pluto is Hive World, same may go for Mercury and Saturn and Titan moons ) and other worlds in Sol System would send their force and naval forces to aid. Jupiter is one big shipyard, on Mars in the entire Mechanicus wit hit's Titan Legions etc...
Whoever attack Sol can only except defeat, even if they cut it off they will still have trouble defeating it.
-Loki- wrote:
Except only the Imperium has taken any pro-active measures to actually combat them.
There's no fluff about say, Black Crusades against a Hive Fleet, no Waaghs specifically against a hive fleet, no Tau expansions fighting them off, no Craftworlds plunging into a fight with a hive fleet, etc. So far, Tau has only fought against them defensively after a hive fleet hit their empire, Chaos has pretty much ignored them, Orks are only in a war with them because an Inquisitor redirected a small part of Leviathan into a large Ork empire. Dark Eldar are just raiding them for meat for their arenas and experiments, and Necrons still aren't doing much of anything. The Eldar are using old technology to burn worlds to bare bedrock, which accomplishes nothing but biomass denial, and also denial of a habitable planet for themselves.
Guess what? The Tyranid codexes say the same thing. Tyranids are the enemy of everyone, this isn't anything new. It's only worth pointing out that the Tyranids are the enemy of everyone if everyone drops their current spats and does something about them. So far, only the Imperium and Eldar have taken an active stance on trying to halt them, and they aren't doing it very successfully.
Not quite true, actually. No, the Orks as a whole haven't taken any species-wide action against the Tyranids, but in the list of major Waaaghs in the Ork Codex, there IS actually one Waaagh launched directly in response to one of the Hive Fleets. I don't remember which one, sadly. . .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xXSir MontyXx wrote:Just because a forge world does not have lush jungles. Doesn't mean the Tyranid lose Bio mass. If the Tyranid take a planet they break even no matter what. All dead Tyranid are re-absorbed and made into Tyranid again.
Not to mention the eat the very atmosphere of planets as well. That is an unbelievable amount of resources in itself.
Also, gotta point out that this isn't necessarily true.
An atmosphere is a lot of mass, yes, but it's incredibly diffuse. Just collecting it would take an incredible amount of effort, much, much more than collecting biomass in the form of animals and plants would. Collection, like everything, requires an expenditure of energy; and energy, in the final analysis, comes from mass. If the Tyranids fight a battle, win, and collect 100% of their dead, that does NOT mean they have broken even, because they've expended an enormous amount of energy getting there, launching the attack, and fighting the battle. That's GONE, and they aren't getting it back; fighting in space expends energy, and creating the invasion force expends energy, and processing the dead back into living creatures expends energy, and establishing digestion pools expends energy, and sucking up the atmosphere expends energy, and keeping the Ripper swarms alive while they eat everything afterwards expends energy, all of which is simply lost.
In order to break even on a planetary invasion, the Tyranids have to gain more from recycling their dead + consuming the biomass of the planet than they lose in the process of traveling there, fighting, replacing losses, and maintaining their creatures while they eat the world. For that matter, even some tactics that people claim don't hurt Tyranids actually do; burning the corpses after a battle, for instance, converts much of the mass of the body into particulate matter, making it more difficult and time-consuming to recycle. And, of course, if a hive fleet LOSES a battle that's 100% loss and they won't get any of it back.
In short, the Tyranids are not self-sustaining. They are as subject to entropy as everything is; they NEED to eat profitable planets continuously, not to expand but just to survive. If they don't attack planets often enough, or if they pick the wrong planet to attack, they'll deteriorate and become weaker and weaker. Attacking a forge world, for instance, probably ends up being a net loss for the Tyranids; it would be a hard fight, requiring massive energy expenditure to punch through the space defences (not gonna get back the ships that are destroyed in space, there's gonna be debris going in every direction) and create, maintain and recycle creatures that can do battle with Titans and the Skitarii legions, and even if they win, the total haul is very small. Organic beings don't use a huge amount of metals, and I'd be willing to bet that there's more metal than biomass on a lot of forge worlds. We know the Tyranids don't convert nonorganic things into organic matter, since they don't literally eat whole planets rock and all, so they almost certainly can't use metals. Attacking a paradise world like Prandium, by contrast, is probably hugely profitable; not many inhabitants to fight back so the actual conquest is short, and then lots of lush biomass to devour without any opposition.
At least we know Terra's defenses.
We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.
Commissar41.0 wrote:
Yes so was Gryphonne IV and Macragge and on Iyanden the Eldar had to revive its dead just to win....Oh and not to mention we are thirving on Octavia (Home world of the Orks)
Coolyo294 wrote:Terra is infinitely better defended then Macragge or Gryphonne IV.
Alexzandvar wrote:Attacking Terra, I will say again, would be the biggest waste of Biomass ever.
I think that even the Tyranids would think five times before they go toward Terra.
Here we can see only ships and orbital platforms, and only Terra. Not Mars or Titan or Saturn moons or Pluto etc...
yes! the nids will need MORE biomasses than what HF Leviathan currently has.
If the HF Leviathan stuck in an attrition war against Octarian orks (and a series of Eldar hit 'n run tactics). the HF will have to concentrate on eastern fringe to replenish its biomass before heading towards Terra.
and that is a good possibility for a new global campaign. if GW managments is about to host one.
Also, gotta point out that this isn't necessarily true.
An atmosphere is a lot of mass, yes, but it's incredibly diffuse. Just collecting it would take an incredible amount of effort, much, much more than collecting biomass in the form of animals and plants would. Collection, like everything, requires an expenditure of energy; and energy, in the final analysis, comes from mass. If the Tyranids fight a battle, win, and collect 100% of their dead, that does NOT mean they have broken even, because they've expended an enormous amount of energy getting there, launching the attack, and fighting the battle. That's GONE, and they aren't getting it back; fighting in space expends energy, and creating the invasion force expends energy, and processing the dead back into living creatures expends energy, and establishing digestion pools expends energy, and sucking up the atmosphere expends energy, and keeping the Ripper swarms alive while they eat everything afterwards expends energy, all of which is simply lost.
In order to break even on a planetary invasion, the Tyranids have to gain more from recycling their dead + consuming the biomass of the planet than they lose in the process of traveling there, fighting, replacing losses, and maintaining their creatures while they eat the world. For that matter, even some tactics that people claim don't hurt Tyranids actually do; burning the corpses after a battle, for instance, converts much of the mass of the body into particulate matter, making it more difficult and time-consuming to recycle. And, of course, if a hive fleet LOSES a battle that's 100% loss and they won't get any of it back.
In short, the Tyranids are not self-sustaining. They are as subject to entropy as everything is; they NEED to eat profitable planets continuously, not to expand but just to survive. If they don't attack planets often enough, or if they pick the wrong planet to attack, they'll deteriorate and become weaker and weaker. Attacking a forge world, for instance, probably ends up being a net loss for the Tyranids; it would be a hard fight, requiring massive energy expenditure to punch through the space defences (not gonna get back the ships that are destroyed in space, there's gonna be debris going in every direction) and create, maintain and recycle creatures that can do battle with Titans and the Skitarii legions, and even if they win, the total haul is very small. Organic beings don't use a huge amount of metals, and I'd be willing to bet that there's more metal than biomass on a lot of forge worlds. We know the Tyranids don't convert nonorganic things into organic matter, since they don't literally eat whole planets rock and all, so they almost certainly can't use metals. Attacking a paradise world like Prandium, by contrast, is probably hugely profitable; not many inhabitants to fight back so the actual conquest is short, and then lots of lush biomass to devour without any opposition.
And this is why they send out Vanguards. This is why they avoid worlds. Not because they're difficult to take, but because there's nothing they need there. Though that long lost article on what was taken from a planet, I'm quite sure it included metals.
However, this is a great post, and is a good summary of the reason for vanguard organisms and why Tyranids avoid some planets. Some simply aren't worth expending the biomass. While there is fluff of Tyranids attacking a tomb world, it doesn't mean it's going to always happen. However, vanguard organisms do a lot of information gathering - in the case of Gryphonne IV, if the Vanguard managed to say, eat the brain of a rather high level person, and discovered that if the planet fell, a lot of nearby systems would lack support in the way of vehicles and ammo, it becomes a good target. It's a net loss of biomass to make the net gain from several other planets higher.
Tyranids didn't destroy 12 other galaxies by being stupid.
If it was 12 galaxies inhabited by non-advanced, non-space-faring races or simply lush, green worlds with nothing more advanced than the common aardvark, the Tyranid might have thought the Milky Way was going to be cake.
Psienesis wrote:If it was 12 galaxies inhabited by non-advanced, non-space-faring races or simply lush, green worlds with nothing more advanced than the common aardvark, the Tyranid might have thought the Milky Way was going to be cake.
I still believe it all comes down to how EAGER the Tyranids (or the Hive Mind if you prefer) are to consume Terra. It's far from unheard of, that the Tyranids are capable of adapting. And by now, it has been suggested that it is exactly what they're doing. They've tried all-out frontal attacks, and that didn't work. And as fluff suggests with Leviathan, the Tyranids are more carefully, systematically collecting biomass from far and wide.
By my logic, they don't really NEED to take on Terra. If they keep on invigorating their fleets, they'll become more and more capable of consuming larger prey.
Once again, Terra isn't Macrage, the nids are going to need a larger force and to rethink their tactics.
The Tyranids have plenty of reasons to attack Terra, half a trillion people, the atmospheres of at least 2 habited worlds, plus its the seat of the Imperium, it goes, the Empire goes. They even need metals, prof; iron is required to transport oxxygen in the blood, and they seem to have other reasons. On tyran, they had to burry the info capsule several miles the keep it safe.
Also, gotta point out that this isn't necessarily true.
An atmosphere is a lot of mass, yes, but it's incredibly diffuse. Just collecting it would take an incredible amount of effort, much, much more than collecting biomass in the form of animals and plants would. Collection, like everything, requires an expenditure of energy; and energy, in the final analysis, comes from mass. If the Tyranids fight a battle, win, and collect 100% of their dead, that does NOT mean they have broken even, because they've expended an enormous amount of energy getting there, launching the attack, and fighting the battle. That's GONE, and they aren't getting it back; fighting in space expends energy, and creating the invasion force expends energy, and processing the dead back into living creatures expends energy, and establishing digestion pools expends energy, and sucking up the atmosphere expends energy, and keeping the Ripper swarms alive while they eat everything afterwards expends energy, all of which is simply lost.
In order to break even on a planetary invasion, the Tyranids have to gain more from recycling their dead + consuming the biomass of the planet than they lose in the process of traveling there, fighting, replacing losses, and maintaining their creatures while they eat the world. For that matter, even some tactics that people claim don't hurt Tyranids actually do; burning the corpses after a battle, for instance, converts much of the mass of the body into particulate matter, making it more difficult and time-consuming to recycle. And, of course, if a hive fleet LOSES a battle that's 100% loss and they won't get any of it back.
In short, the Tyranids are not self-sustaining. They are as subject to entropy as everything is; they NEED to eat profitable planets continuously, not to expand but just to survive. If they don't attack planets often enough, or if they pick the wrong planet to attack, they'll deteriorate and become weaker and weaker. Attacking a forge world, for instance, probably ends up being a net loss for the Tyranids; it would be a hard fight, requiring massive energy expenditure to punch through the space defences (not gonna get back the ships that are destroyed in space, there's gonna be debris going in every direction) and create, maintain and recycle creatures that can do battle with Titans and the Skitarii legions, and even if they win, the total haul is very small. Organic beings don't use a huge amount of metals, and I'd be willing to bet that there's more metal than biomass on a lot of forge worlds. We know the Tyranids don't convert nonorganic things into organic matter, since they don't literally eat whole planets rock and all, so they almost certainly can't use metals. Attacking a paradise world like Prandium, by contrast, is probably hugely profitable; not many inhabitants to fight back so the actual conquest is short, and then lots of lush biomass to devour without any opposition.
And this is why they send out Vanguards. This is why they avoid worlds. Not because they're difficult to take, but because there's nothing they need there. Though that long lost article on what was taken from a planet, I'm quite sure it included metals.
However, this is a great post, and is a good summary of the reason for vanguard organisms and why Tyranids avoid some planets. Some simply aren't worth expending the biomass. While there is fluff of Tyranids attacking a tomb world, it doesn't mean it's going to always happen. However, vanguard organisms do a lot of information gathering - in the case of Gryphonne IV, if the Vanguard managed to say, eat the brain of a rather high level person, and discovered that if the planet fell, a lot of nearby systems would lack support in the way of vehicles and ammo, it becomes a good target. It's a net loss of biomass to make the net gain from several other planets higher.
Tyranids didn't destroy 12 other galaxies by being stupid.
Well then, Tyranids definitely know how to survive between galaxies without this chain of planets they apparently need.
There is no way that a planet with a large enouph ocean cannot make up for all of the loss they take. There is an estimated 326 million trillion gallons of water on Earth today..... thats a lot of future nid's
and it is said that Tyranids carry off biomass to unkown areas of the universe. So they arent really hurting for it if they are doing that.
Iranna wrote:
Indeed. However, one would assume that the Hive Mind would commit an extremely large presence if it were ever to assault Terra, we're talking billions, possibly trillions, of Bio-ships. I don't even think the Sol navy could withstand it.
indeed I would assume that over 2/10 of the guardsmen would kill themeslves outright when the Biomass hit the fan besides they only thing guardsmen are good for is Biomass and eventally making useful cover for the Termagaunts while they kill more Guardsmen!
the only real threat I would think was if the SM went into a Holy F*** this is going to happen mode and mass build Titans, land Raiders, Emperor class Crusiers and all of them jump into either Terminator Armor or Dreadnoughts
AND I HATE how everyone says "oh well the Necrons landed on Mars and were evaporated instanly" were not going for Mars were going to a more heavily defended stratiglcally Vauble Planet then Baal, Macragge, Cadia, and possibly Saturn combined. basically put we will get killed faster but hey guns need ammo and a blockade can starve entire systems leaving them defenceless so sacrifice all the Hormagaunts, Rippers, and Spores and lets get some Hierophants, and some of those Bio ships pumpin! Oh and some Norn Queens are welcome too!
-Loki- wrote: Tyranids didn't destroy 12 other galaxies by being stupid.
Where's the evidence they did at all?
5th edition rulebook, Tyranid fluff section' 'With the husks of a dozen galaxies behind them...'.
They've done in 12 other galaxies. We're next.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote:If it was 12 galaxies inhabited by non-advanced, non-space-faring races or simply lush, green worlds with nothing more advanced than the common aardvark, the Tyranid might have thought the Milky Way was going to be cake.
If that's the case, they wouldn't have needed to evolve Heirophants, Carnifexes, Trygons, Heirodules, Tyrannofexes and all those other nasty defense buster creatures they have had since they entered our galaxy (5th edition fluff retconned it so they had all these when they entered the milky way. They all fought on Macragge).
If they hadn't come up against feirce resistance before our galaxy, they would have moved on Tyran with nothing but rippers.
I agree that this is definitely just another plot point to start discussion. Like the blood ravens.. And the two missing primarchs... And the continuous hints at loyal primarchs being alive and well.
Interesting none the less.s
Also, am I the only one that finds this and the victory of the Tyranids in the event of an "final stand" kind of scenario far more believable than Draigos fluff? Just sayin'.
Terra is to awesome for the tyranids. They would get wrecked before tthey touched the ground. Every "marine clan" would come to terra if a big enough force tried to attack it.
This is why the Nids should take out terra.... All the responses about how they wouldnt last 5 mins or how they wouldnt even get there......
How garbage GW make the nids codex compared to the marine codexes dosent reflect how well the nids actually fight....
The Imperium players in all their smugness need a good ass kicking from the xenos.... It would do well to bring them down a peg at how wonderful the imperium of man is compared to everybody else....
Terra is just another rock for the nids to poop on. Get over it =]
Well then, Tyranids definitely know how to survive between galaxies without this chain of planets they apparently need.
There is no way that a planet with a large enouph ocean cannot make up for all of the loss they take. There is an estimated 326 million trillion gallons of water on Earth today..... thats a lot of future nid's
and it is said that Tyranids carry off biomass to unkown areas of the universe. So they arent really hurting for it if they are doing that.
The fact that a Hive Fleet (or, rather, at least some of a Hive Fleet) can manage to cross galaxies doesn't mean that they didn't take losses doing so. In fact, they certainly did; they must have. All systems have entropy, the Tyranids are not excluded. That is almost certainly WHY they eat whole planets; space travel drains energy from them, and they need to replenish it.
In addition, I have to point out that, well, no; the ocean is NOT a whole lot of future 'nids, or at least it's not nearly as many as it seems at first glance.
First off, you can't actually make an organism out of water; what we refer to as biological organisms are also called 'carbon-based' life-forms, because all the oxygen and hydrogen molecules in their bodies need carbon molecules to bond with in order to create stable flesh. The ocean would provide an enormous surplus of hydrogen and oxygen, and relatively little carbon. Tyranids either do not or cannot break substances down to the atomic level and recombine them into different molecules (if they could, they would eat the ENTIRE planet rather than leaving the rock) which means they're stuck working at the molecular level at best, and so they'd run out of carbon molecules to bond with all that hydrogen and oxygen pretty fast; which means that a large fraction of the mass of the ocean would simply be wasted. The same applies to atmospheric gases, incidentally. Devouring corpses and plant matter (that is, actual living biomass) would be far, far more efficient than taking the atmosphere or the seawater, as well as easier and faster.
Secondly, a significant fraction of the ocean is comprised of trace elements that living organisms do not need, and in fact are generally quite harmful in high concentrations. That stuff is, if usable at all, still not particularly helpful.
Thirdly, collecting all that stuff requires energy in its own right. A HUGE amount of energy. It wouldn't be easy to suck up an ocean. . . and, of course, as I mentioned above they'd be collecting a massive amount of redundant material, which they get to either store and carry around (more energy used up) or vent into space, unless they have some way to selectively filter the molecules out of water. Which is entirely possible, given that they're Tyranids and biotech is what they do, but that once again takes even more energy.
And last, it depends entirely on how much they suffer by way of losses. Stripping biomass off a planet would be, frankly, hugely inefficient. Collection is a massive undertaking, rendering it into a usable form is difficult and time-consuming, filtration and recombination is highly energy-intensive, and you can't even use all of what you finally get at the end of the whole process. I would honestly anticipate that MOST planets would be, at best, marginally profitable for the Tyranids. Of course, humanity would be strongly associated with the least-marginal worlds, given that I'd think we'd like to settle on the ones which require the least terraforming, so the situation might be a bit better than that, but my interpretation of the Tyranid fluff is that they eat whole galaxies because that's the only way for them to stay on the right side of the entropy curve. And if anything slows a Hive Fleet down too much or inflicts too many losses, even if they do eventually manage to smash through it, there's a very serious danger that they simply will have lost too much to remain a viable force.
BeRzErKeR wrote:First off, you can't actually make an organism out of water; what we refer to as biological organisms are also called 'carbon-based' life-forms, because all the oxygen and hydrogen molecules in their bodies need carbon molecules to bond with in order to create stable flesh. The ocean would provide an enormous surplus of hydrogen and oxygen, and relatively little carbon. Tyranids either do not or cannot break substances down to the atomic level and recombine them into different molecules (if they could, they would eat the ENTIRE planet rather than leaving the rock) which means they're stuck working at the molecular level at best, and so they'd run out of carbon molecules to bond with all that hydrogen and oxygen pretty fast; which means that a large fraction of the mass of the ocean would simply be wasted. The same applies to atmospheric gases, incidentally. Devouring corpses and plant matter (that is, actual living biomass) would be far, far more efficient than taking the atmosphere or the seawater, as well as easier and faster.
This is contradictory to how Tyranids are described as collecting 'biomass'. They simply eat everything, throw themselves into a digestion pool, which is sucked up through a capillary tower. They don't differentiate between different types. It's just one big pool. However, as you said, that also runs contradictory to the fact that they eat down to the bedrock - why not eat it all?
Not eating the bedrock and further down might come down to time. The amount of time it takes for them to eat that, and the danger of the heated core of the planet, might simply make it prudent to stop at the bedrock. It's just easier to stop, move on, and fine another world.
BeRzErKeR wrote:Secondly, a significant fraction of the ocean is comprised of trace elements that living organisms do not need, and in fact are generally quite harmful in high concentrations. That stuff is, if usable at all, still not particularly helpful.
They show a great propensity for throwing poisons on their weapons. Things like toxin sacs embedded in creatures designed for close assault and in the ammo of some ranges weapons, even spore mines, right down to the spores released by Venomthropes and the spores they release into the air of a world to choke defenders. What better way to have toxins designed to kill the enemy of an unknown galaxy than simply employ toxins harvested from planets already harmful to the average species of the galaxy?
BeRzErKeR wrote:Thirdly, collecting all that stuff requires energy in its own right. A HUGE amount of energy. It wouldn't be easy to suck up an ocean. . . and, of course, as I mentioned above they'd be collecting a massive amount of redundant material, which they get to either store and carry around (more energy used up) or vent into space, unless they have some way to selectively filter the molecules out of water. Which is entirely possible, given that they're Tyranids and biotech is what they do, but that once again takes even more energy.
Someone actually did a huge study on this. Given the amount of energy used to 'drink' bioass from the surface of a planet to a hive ship in orbit, even considering the capillary tower has moving muscles and acts like a throat, helping it on the way up, more energy would be expended harvesting all the biomass than they would gain. This sort of thing simply comes down to 'a wizard did it'.
BeRzErKeR wrote:And if anything slows a Hive Fleet down too much or inflicts too many losses, even if they do eventually manage to smash through it, there's a very serious danger that they simply will have lost too much to remain a viable force.
Quite a few hive fleets have 'come back from the dead'. Kraken and its splinter fleets (Megalodon is a new hive fleet that has risen from a Kraken splinter fleet), the remaining tendrils of Behemoth, and even the likes of Jormungandr being 'dead' for centuries then coming back and swelling its size on a bunch of agri-worlds. It's another case of 'a wizard did it', which the 40k fluff is full of.
Well i have never read about certain things not being used to make more 'nids. Scientifically you are correct, but the warhammer fluff states that they drain planets to strengthen their fleet.
Milisim wrote:The Imperium players in all their smugness need a good ass kicking from the xenos.... It would do well to bring them down a peg at how wonderful the imperium of man is compared to everybody else....
Thank you so much finally someone who understands I never said the Nids had to destroy Terra they just needed to show the Imperium they are not as good and protected as they think thus setting an example no other race has set foot on Terra (NO CHAOS is not included the only reason they got on was because over half of they loyalists turned so it was easy and no one saw it coming)
I mean really youre talking about a race that even when it dies it is regenerated by picking up its own biomass and spitting out more.....its like Necrons without the metal and gauss weapons
odorofdeath wrote:What's interesting to me is what abandon will so when he finally reaches Terra after the tyranids have consumed it.... lol.
I can see it - Abaddon bringing together the forces of Chaos to ally with the IoM, because no one can destroy the false Emperor but him! Then after they are done, the Emperor and Abaddon can bro-fist.
I'd imagine the chaos daemons would eventually come save the imperium after enough of it falls down. They thrive on endless warfare and the suffering of mortals. They need souls!!! Can't have souls and powerful emotions if all life was just 1 overmind with just 1 emotion. At the very least I can see the chaos gods getting behind that one.
nice little chat on CSM now back on topic Nids would eventually destroy Terra if they took out the Manufactorums on the Forge Worlds and a few SM chapter planets would help as well.
Which is assuming that they can. The more experienced chapters seem capable of (eventually) beating back a Tyranid invasion, and the 'Order' races of the galaxy are apparently willing to form temporary alliances in order to defeat them. Of course, the Necrons could just plan to let them onto Terra and then nuke it.
Durza wrote:Which is assuming that they can. The more experienced chapters seem capable of (eventually) beating back a Tyranid invasion, and the 'Order' races of the galaxy are apparently willing to form temporary alliances in order to defeat them. Of course, the Necrons could just plan to let them onto Terra and then nuke it.
.... wait what? ... like they've been able to the whole time... unrestricted totally without issue and only reason they haven't is it's a boring sight or something? Your post makes no sense to me.
Brother Coa wrote:At least we know Terra's defenses. We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.
Brother Coa wrote:At least we know Terra's defenses.
We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.
Terra is not the most well defended world.
It's BOREALUM, an Empire of BALD AND FOOLISHNESS.
No Tyranid could last long against STEEL RAHN.
Yeah, that shtik certainly didn't get old years ago..
Brother Coa wrote:At least we know Terra's defenses.
We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.
Terra is not the most well defended world.
It's BOREALUM, an Empire of BALD AND FOOLISHNESS.
No Tyranid could last long against STEEL RAHN.
Yeah, that shtik certainly didn't get old years ago..
wait...
There are Hieroglyphs found in an Egyptian tomb of a "Your mom" joke.
Brother Coa wrote:At least we know Terra's defenses.
We don't know how many Tyranids there are, unless some prof rather then "it is said" is presented I will assume that Leviathan is the last of their race.
Terra is not the most well defended world.
It's BOREALUM, an Empire of BALD AND FOOLISHNESS.
No Tyranid could last long against STEEL RAHN.
Yeah, that shtik certainly didn't get old years ago..
wait...
There are Hieroglyphs found in an Egyptian tomb of a "Your mom" joke.
No joke ever gets old.
It is a proven fact, that 98% of people are idiots, except for those that know that song,
-Loki- wrote:Read the rulebook, the boxout 'the threat without' in the rulebook. It clarifies that only a few tendrils of Kraken and Behemoth were defeated, and the majority is still out there.
The majority? Then what is it doing, and why does that make Leviathan such a big threat in comparison if either Kraken or Behemoth should still be able to take such worlds as Macragge?
The 5th edition codex specifically states the Eldars method of bruning entire worlds is simply to deny biomass. It's a dumb tactic.
I like to assume that they have some sort of other reason for it. Maybe to direct them to non-Eldar areas? Or maybe just so they won't be any stronger when they reach some Craftworld. It could still be reasonable.
And the Imperium might not have the resources to counter another mojor hive fleet.
I can baselessly speculate too.
True. It's struggling as it is.
I was merely trying to point out that there might not be any more Hive Fleets arriving from outside the galaxy.
No, it just proves they can underestimate the defense of a planet and not commit enough.
Which is pretty much attacking a planet not worth the biomass they commit to it. The Hive Mind is not all-knowing, and does attack heavily fortified planets. There's no reason to think it would not attack Sol if it got near enough to it.
Hive ships arrive and drink up the harvested biomass through cappillary towers. There aren't enough storage hive ships that the Imperium has seen in a hive fleet to actually hold what is harvested from a single planet. The biomass is going somewhere.
Maybe the Tyranid process isn't as efficient as the Imperium thinks it is. Maybe they need it for leaving the gravity of a system or something. Either way, they have no way of actually returning it to some giant Hive Fleet outside the galaxy other than actually ferrying it back, and without seeing any hint of that actually happening I'm going to assume that Magos was wrong.
Not at all. Different Forgeworlds often hide secret designs even from Mars to ensure they are the only Forge that can make them. The Mechancus is just as fractured as the Imperium. There's like, 3 Forgeworlds that can make the Leman Russ Vanquisher. Gryphonne IV was one of them. Now there's one less.
Where did you read this? All I've read is that all Forgeworlds have to send a copy of the STC to Mars. They aren't really going to be able to produce these designs and then not have other Forgeworlds find out about it considering how far across the Imperium the Regiments using them will be posted. Sure, only a few Forgeworlds have the design, but presumably Mars is one of them and can give other Forgeworlds the design if it sees fit.
Again, it hurts the Imperium in other ways. Plus, Forgeworlds are generall rich in minerals - Tyranids take those as well.
True enough. So would a dead world, and I don't know how much metal and such the Tyranids take.
Entity is what is used to describe it. It is, however, sentient. it's a collective consiousness. It sits in the warp - proven by Tigerius being able to 'read' it. The Shadow is an even bigger warp disturbance generated by the hive mind.
Fair enough.
xXSir MontyXx wrote:Well then, Tyranids definitely know how to survive between galaxies without this chain of planets they apparently need.
How much energy did the lose travelling between galaxies though? How long did the journey take, how much biomass did they lose in the void? They could lose almost all of the resources of the galaxy they came from to actually get to the next one.
Commissar41.0 wrote:a blockade can starve entire systems leaving them defenceless
Have the Tyranids actually used blockades in such a manner before? The closest to that I've read about is Jörmungandr, which used asteroids and such to hit planets before attacking (but was pretty much destroyed in the end save for seeded creatures).
Milisim wrote:The Imperium players in all their smugness need a good ass kicking from the xenos.... It would do well to bring them down a peg at how wonderful the imperium of man is compared to everybody else....
Sorry, but the Imperium of Man is the most powerful faction in the game. Only Tyranids come close, but thus far I'd still place the Imperium above.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Seriously though, the iom is horrible at fighting bugs. They rely on attrition against them, nuff said.
In a long enough battle of attrition the Imperium will win. If the Tyranids can't take the planet, they're losing. That's actually the only way you can really fight the Tyranids aside from killing all the Synapse creatures first. You can't rout them. When the enemy refuses to retreat all you have is attrition tactics - killing proportionately more of the enemy than they kill of you. The Imperium, like other factions, uses fancy tactics and such but all it comes down to in the end is killing more than you lose.
Commissar41.0 wrote:Thank you so much finally someone who understands I never said the Nids had to destroy Terra
You were talking about them having a nom-nom party on Terra. How is that not destroying Terra?
Ascalam wrote:The Eldar have.
When did this happen?
For that matter, is it definitively stated the Old Ones did as well? I'd assume in the old Necron Codex or the Eldar one.
Ascalam wrote:The Eldar have visited Terra to give advice a few times, mainly in older fluff. I'll see if i can find the stories involved.
Ah, fair enough.
The Old Ones built Humanity, and seeded them on Earth.
I thought it was in that Codex.
As to the IOM being the most powerful faction.. The IOM claims it is, and the fluff is from the IOM's point of view
Even one of the Necron Lords said that the Imperium has ruled the galaxy for 10,000 years (and have little to show for it, but still).
Other sources disagree.
What other sources? The Tyranids are the only faction big enough to challenge the Imperium properly, and even then I'd argue that the fact that their main Hive Fleets are consistently stopped (eventually) suggests that they aren't powerful enough to rival the Imperium. Chaos is too fractured and relatively contained. The Eldar are too weak and again, fairly divided and don't have the power to try to reforge their empire. The Necrons are, again, too fractured to begin to rival the Imperium. Daemons I'm not counting because they don't belong in the Imperium. The Tau are in the same league as one Necron Dynasty power-wise (although they're the only race (aside from the Tyranids) that's mostly united. The Imperium is in fact very divided, but united sufficiently to face its threats. and even they have Farsight splitting off).
The Emperor wouldn't have opened his eyes in fear when Gork and Mork awoke, if the Orks an extinction event possibility
The Orks aren't one faction though. They consist of thousands, or tens of thousands (or more) of factions. Species-wise they're the most powerful. Faction-wise, they lag far behind the Imperium.
Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it
The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey... The Necrons also don't equate controls the most space with rules the galaxy either. The IOM is a fairly small amount of total space, but well spread across the galaxy and organised.
Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..
'Vast gaps' is a pretty big understatement in how much non Imperial space lies between Imperial systems. 1 million worlds is a pittance of how many worlds there are in the galaxy. The 5th edition rulebook actually does go into this, describing the vast distances between Imperial systems.
Ascalam wrote:Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it
True. It's stated as fact in the Ork Codex if I recall correctly.
The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey...
Doesn't Ward primarily play Necrons though?
Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..
Ascalam wrote:Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it
True. It's stated as fact in the Ork Codex if I recall correctly.
The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey...
Doesn't Ward primarily play Necrons though?
Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..
True enough.
Ward was a Necron player, and then got into MAJOR Ultramarines fanboi-ism. He seems to have gotten back into necrons again lately
There's a reason why all the Marine codex (barring SW) are Ward, and UM are touted as being the Bestest thing evah
Ascalam wrote:Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it
The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey... The Necrons also don't equate controls the most space with rules the galaxy either. The IOM is a fairly small amount of total space, but well spread across the galaxy and organised.
Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..
It is not that, it's just that Warhammer 40000 follows the sci-fi rules of Humanity:
Rule #1: Humans must be physically weaker from their enemies. ( Orks, Tyranids, Daemons... )
Rule #2: Humans always use weakest weapons against their enemies ( Lasgun, unless you are Space Marine... ) be it less ( Xenomorphs, Bugs ) or more advanced then Humans ( Tau, Eldar, Covenant... )
Rule #3: Humans always die in great numbers ( Starship Troopers, Siege of Vraks ), sometimes in greatest of suffering ( Dark Elar, Tyranids.. )
Rule #4: Humans always have special Character who will always beat the odds and lead them into victory no matter what. ( Master Chief, Johnny Rico, Ripley, Draigo, Dante... )
Rule #5: Humans always win, ALWAYS. In the end, being by some heroic actions of their leader or actually winning a long war with massed army's Humans always win at the end. ( Exept heretical Avatar, but Na'vi let Humans go home and when they return some 10 years later it will be glorious ).
1/ Tau, grots... eldar, deldar, orks, most lesser daemons are the same strength as humans, and weaker than SM. Tech level varies...
2/. Artillery is weak? Guard armies are stuffed with it, and it generaly packs a lot more punch than the xenos equivilent.. If anything i'd say the Xenos are the underdog as a whole against the IG and SM stuff.
3/. so do orks, tau (kroot especially) etc, also in great suffering (inquisition/ordo xenos..)
4/. True enough here. It's an annoying narrative convention. I like it better when the bad guys (who are usually smarter, better dressed and less cliche'd) win...
5/. There are others, but most big movies are American made, and so have to have the happy ending or upset the audience (and lots of gratuitous sex and explosions of course ).. Event horizon is one of the few US made ones that hints that the good guys are screwed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Frankly your proposition would fly better if the IOM didn't have the best armour in the game, the best tanks in the game, the biggest guns in the game....
Ascalam wrote:Fair enough. If we take faction to mean unified group (and exclude Daemons) the IOM is the most powerful. If we're talking game faction (as in what codex race you play..i've seen it phrased this way before) the Orks have it
The Necron fluff was written by an IOM fanboy, but hey... The Necrons also don't equate controls the most space with rules the galaxy either. The IOM is a fairly small amount of total space, but well spread across the galaxy and organised.
Saying they ruled the whole galaxy is a bit of a fallacy. There are vast gaps within the IOm's controlled area that are unexplored and uncontrolled, full of hostile races etc..
It is not that, it's just that Warhammer 40000 follows the sci-fi rules of Humanity:
Rule #1: Humans must be physically weaker from their enemies. ( Orks, Tyranids, Daemons... )
Rule #2: Humans always use weakest weapons against their enemies ( Lasgun, unless you are Space Marine... ) be it less ( Xenomorphs, Bugs ) or more advanced then Humans ( Tau, Eldar, Covenant... )
Rule #3: Humans always die in great numbers ( Starship Troopers, Siege of Vraks ), sometimes in greatest of suffering ( Dark Elar, Tyranids.. )
Rule #4: Humans always have special Character who will always beat the odds and lead them into victory no matter what. ( Master Chief, Johnny Rico, Ripley, Draigo, Dante... )
Rule #5: Humans always win, ALWAYS. In the end, being by some heroic actions of their leader or actually winning a long war with massed army's Humans always win at the end. ( Exept heretical Avatar, but Na'vi let Humans go home and when they return some 10 years later it will be glorious ).
#1: Imperial Stormtroopers were stronger than Ewoks. Jedi were easily better than droids.
#2: What about Alien, where the enemy didn't even have weapons?
#3: If there wasn't death there wouldn't be a threat. But everything else is dying in great numbers as well.
#4: That's because there has to be a main character, an avatar of the player.
#5: Actually, a lot of sci fi has incredibly depressing endings that only look like victory because the main character and a child/love interest/relative survives. What happened in Alien is hardly victory. And the Na'vi made the humans go home, bombing the planet wouldn't get them what they want.
-Loki- wrote:'Vast gaps' is a pretty big understatement in how much non Imperial space lies between Imperial systems. 1 million worlds is a pittance of how many worlds there are in the galaxy. The 5th edition rulebook actually does go into this, describing the vast distances between Imperial systems.
1. Warp travel is 'non linear'. There's many many world you ignores while you're doin' warp jumps. there's only two things to focus
a. Destination due.
b. Warp hazards. mostly demons and non-chaos warp life forms.
2. Galaxy is not actually 'Flat', while the Imperial Galaxy map always 2d, the actual Imperial space is 3d.
Durza wrote: #1: Imperial Stormtroopers were stronger than Ewoks. Jedi were easily better than droids.
Taking Star Wars as example here is not quite fair, Humans there are the most powerful race. And I don't see them as a Humans myself, because there is no Earth and noone call them Humans ( except in extended universe ). In every other major sci-fi ( Terminator, Predator, Alien, Starship Troopers, Dead Space, Gears of War, Crysis, Starcraft, Star Trek... ) Humans are always weaker then their opponents.
#2: What about Alien, where the enemy didn't even have weapons?
In "Starship Troopers" Bugs don't have weapons to, and they tear Mobile Infantry to shreds. In aliens Xenomorphs also tear Marines in half in melee, in StarCraft zeeglings and zealots also don't have weapons and they tear marines in shreds. Liek I said - the crapiest weapons ( liek in Halo assault rifle vs plasma rifle ).
#3: If there wasn't death there wouldn't be a threat. But everything else is dying in great numbers as well.
Death ok, gruesome death on the other hand...
#4: That's because there has to be a main character, an avatar of the player.
But he is never balanced but stupidly overpowered ( like Master Chief ), it is liek that in almost every other sci-fi.
#5: Actually, a lot of sci fi has incredibly depressing endings that only look like victory because the main character and a child/love interest/relative survives. What happened in Alien is hardly victory. And the Na'vi made the humans go home, bombing the planet wouldn't get them what they want.
Humans always win in the end, be it slow or long-term ( as far as I know they were only exterminated in A.I. ). And in Avatar 2 they will bomb the planet and just collect the remains, I would use nukes without any question.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ascalam wrote:
Frankly your proposition would fly better if the IOM didn't have the best armour in the game, the best tanks in the game, the biggest guns in the game....
Like I said, Warhammer have heavy dose of Human special rule #5.
-Loki- wrote:'Vast gaps' is a pretty big understatement in how much non Imperial space lies between Imperial systems. 1 million worlds is a pittance of how many worlds there are in the galaxy. The 5th edition rulebook actually does go into this, describing the vast distances between Imperial systems.
1. Warp travel is 'non linear'. There's many many world you ignores while you're doin' warp jumps. there's only two things to focus a. Destination due. b. Warp hazards. mostly demons and non-chaos warp life forms. 2. Galaxy is not actually 'Flat', while the Imperial Galaxy map always 2d, the actual Imperial space is 3d.
None of that refutes the fact that the IoM is actually very small, when regarding populated worlds.
Your second point, that the galaxy is not flat, makes my case even more. When you consider only 1 million worlds in a 2d plane, it's a very insignificant amount of the galaxy populated by the IoM. When you consider the 3 dimensional view of the glaxy, 1 million worlds is pitifully small (even going by todays estimates of how many planets sit in the 'habitable zone' of the Milky Ways ~400 billion stars). They occupy an 'Empire' that is a tiny amount of worlds (on the galactic scale) spread out and separated by entire systems.
Warp travel might make it easier to travel such a disparate empire, but it doesn't change the fact that the IoM is absolutely tiny on the galactic scale.
-Loki- wrote:
None of that refutes the fact that the IoM is actually very small, when regarding populated worlds.
In galactic plane - yes. But politically - no.
No other unified faction have that much planets under it's control. And the cooperation of those 1.000.000+ worlds is what makes that Imperium strong.
In the entire 40k history, only one faction has ever reached Terra and came within a hair's breath of winning, and that was chaos. It wasn't Tyranids or Orks or Necrons, it was the entire Chao Space Marines legions under the warmaster with the combined 4 chaos gods behind him.
So, theoratically, the one with the biggest chance, again remains a united chaos army (all 4 gods plus all the chaos space marines). The reason is because it can cause IOM to turn on itself, for brother to fight brother, even the loyalist space marines.
IOM biggest threat is itself, and chaos is often the cause behind that. MARs is powerful? What if the highest Tech priests on MARs were seduced to turn to chaos for forbidden knowledge and power? Suddenly you will have Warlord Titans within a hair's breath of Terra.
What if one powerful warmaster was seduced by Chaos and influenced half of the other Terra lords to turn renegade? Bam, instant repeat of the Horus Heresy.
What if Abaddon gets his act together? Same thing.
Chaos can create an infinite number of units, they just need enough death and destruction to feed it. Chaos is the only the thing that can bypass all the numerous planets that stand before Terra. Have a huge daemonic portal open within Terra itself, and the next thing you know, the entire world will be swarming with daemonic hordes.
Eldenfirefly wrote:In the entire 40k history, only one faction has ever reached Terra and came within a hair's breath of winning, and that was chaos. It wasn't Tyranids or Orks or Necrons, it was the entire Chao Space Marines legions under the warmaster with the combined 4 chaos gods behind him.
So, theoratically, the one with the biggest chance, again remains a united chaos army (all 4 gods plus all the chaos space marines). The reason is because it can cause IOM to turn on itself, for brother to fight brother, even the loyalist space marines.
IOM biggest threat is itself, and chaos is often the cause behind that. MARs is powerful? What if the highest Tech priests on MARs were seduced to turn to chaos for forbidden knowledge and power? Suddenly you will have Warlord Titans within a hair's breath of Terra.
What if one powerful warmaster was seduced by Chaos and influenced half of the other Terra lords to turn renegade? Bam, instant repeat of the Horus Heresy.
What if Abaddon gets his act together? Same thing.
Chaos can create an infinite number of units, they just need enough death and destruction to feed it. Chaos is the only the thing that can bypass all the numerous planets that stand before Terra. Have a huge daemonic portal open within Terra itself, and the next thing you know, the entire world will be swarming with daemonic hordes.
congradulations you are offically the 3rd person to state this fact in this thread. Please read posts before posting your own
It dose mention multiple times that in the somewhat near future (43rd thousand year idk) that the tyranid hive fleet will arive at Holy Terra but by the time thatthat happens I think that another force will arive at holy Terra. Not to mention I think that the Adeptus Mechanicus (did I say that right?) most likley has some super special back up plan in the case of invasion. The overall fact of the matter is you have a good nine appousing forces against the Imperium so I am putting my betts on the Chaos or the Orks.
What do you think the end result would be?
Chaos is far, far too weedy and weak to take over the Orks. The Chaos Gods cower in fear before the casual violence meted out by Gork and Mork!
On a slightly more serious note, Orks and Chaos actually don't interact, hardly at all. The Orks were genetically engineered at least partially to fight the Enslaver Plague; their racial psychic power goes entirely into the Waaagh! field, and the Waaagh! field powers Gork and Mork. Since Orks are so massively numerous, and they're all so similar psychologically, Gork and Mork are massively powerful Warp entities, to the point that the Chaos Gods literally aren't capable of fighting them. That being so, the only way to 'possess' an Ork is if the Ork in question essentially invites the daemon in.
. . . though come to think of it, many Nurglite daemons ARE a proper shade of green. Hmm. . .
Durza wrote:
That's the Emperor actually. Khorne would like Gork at least. And there have been a few instances of Orks worshiping Khorne and Nurgle accidentally.
There's a quote in the Ork Codex which states, although I can't quote it since I don't have it with me, that Gork and Mork are just so BIG that the attacks of other Warp entities don't bother them. They're the manifestation of the Orkish race in the Warp, and there are so many Orks that they simply overpower everybody else.
You should also note that Ork emotions do not feed the Chaos Gods at all; they feed Gork and Mork instead. Khorne isn't getting anything from all those bajillions of Orks out there, no matter how violent they are. Gork and Mork are.
Though, one thing that kept striking me, through out this whole "realism meets fictive 40k" scenery, was the lack attention towards i very large factor within the whole 40k universe: The Warp.
When discussing and measuring up given facts against the realm of possibilities, we must first adapt to the given fictive universe, in order to completely answer these question. Therefore, i personally believe that The Warp plays a much larger role, than it gets credit for;
There is even a great deal of fluff, that strongly supports, that the influence of the Immaterium (or The Warp if you prefer), carries a much stronger influence than any other given force, through out the entire 40k universe. One of the most well-known, being the fall of the God-Emperor against the combined strength of the Chaos Gods within Horus. Not to mention The Fall of the Eldar, that soon thereafter gave birth to The Eye of Terror. A Warp rift so large, that it covered most of the ancient Eldar Empire.
Generally speaking, these energies, contained within the Immaterium bears such great influences upon the universe, and yet, they are much disregarded and neglected. Even in lesser cases, such as Psykers who harnesses the tiniest of energies, and hence utilizes it in form of powerful energy storms and alike.
would be 
wait what? ... like they've been able to the whole time... unrestricted totally without issue and only reason they haven't is it's a boring sight or something? Your post makes no sense to me.
Not to mention I think that the Adeptus Mechanicus (did I say that right?) most likley has some super special back up plan in the case of invasion. The overall fact of the matter is you have a good nine appousing forces against the Imperium so I am putting my betts on the Chaos or the Orks.
