Obviously in a game that's aimed 12-year old British boys GW wants to stay as far from the subject of S-E-X as possible. They day their customers discover girls is the day they find better things for their time and money.
But here at Dakka we tend to have a more mature group who are more familiar with the real world and with GW's made up fluff. So i wonder what the Imperium's attitude on sex is.
In the many (MANY!) Black Library books I've read I can only think of a few legitimate relationships. Inquisitor Eisenhorn had a girlfriend on the side but seemed to need to keep it under wraps. And in Gaunts Ghosts we had Tona and Caffran. In Titanicus there was a married couple with the wife in the PDF. Other than that... I mean I haven't read every book and I may have forgotten some but that's all that comes to mind. And funnily enough they're all by Dan Abnett.
Ian Watson's Inquisition Wars had a fairly odd relationship between the Inquisitor Draco and the assassin M'Lindi but it's pretty clear that was illicit.
Obviously a lot of the Imperium is based on the Roman Empire and the Medieval Catholic Church which makes for an odd combination of sexual mores. I would imagine official commands of celibacy that are routinely ignored at the top and bottom levels.
So no one cares too much what the underhivers, laborers and guardsmen are up to. They have their joy girls (& joy boys) and liaisons and of course marriages and provide much of the population growth of the Imperium.
And at the top you have your political marriages and concubines and have people who basically beyond and laws or social morals.
But for the guys in the middle, there you have the true believers and the people afraid to break the rules. So Arbites, adepts, commissars, interrogators and other mid-level Imperial types are probably expected to be celibate.
SoBs are probably meant to be celibate since they're based in part on Catholic nuns. Of course they're also based on Dune's Bene Gesserit, witch-harlots who are assigned to mate with certain lords as part of a millennium-long genetics project. They also have roots in Dune's God Emperor's Fish Speakers, female warriors whose service only ended when they had a child.
Imperial Priests are again based on Catholic ones and probably celibate with decadence and corruption on the top. Though protestant priests, Moslem Imams and some buddhist monks can marry so there's that...
And of course it is well established that Space Marines are not interested in wimmins. Now with so many energetic young scouts around...
Oddly enough some Imperial Priests seem to be based on Roman Catholicism and some on Irish Catholicism... so i wouldn't call celibacy a definate rule in the priesthood.
In the military and the bureaucracy, as well as among ordinary citizens, it follows the norms of society. Within the church, depends on what the donctrines of your sect. Obviously, 'abhor the deviant' being a given, homosexuality, bisexuality, and other non-mainline sexual ideas and relationships are not tolerated without incurring the risk of Inquisitorial investigation.
There's no official sort of word on how heteronormative the Imperium is, although any sort of pleasure not for the greater good of mankind could be considered HERESY.
Usually safest to assume the whole thing varies from planet to planet--which is, make up whatever you like for your fluff.
As with 99% of 40k fluff, you're likely to find a multitude of individual interpretations all depending on which source you're looking at. For what it's worth, many contradictions could also be explained away with the Ecclesiarchy not trying to convert people from their native religion, but rather using infiltration of the faith (by the Orders Sabine and the Missionarius Galaxia) to twist their belief into thinking that they were worshipping the Emperor all along. As a result of this, said worship can take a lot of forms from planet to planet, including people's stance on sex.
That being said, there exists a universally accepted dogma that celibacy preserves purity, as - at least if you go by GW material - this is enforced in all Scholae Progenium throughout the entire Imperium:
"In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain." - 2E C:SoB
Of course we have to keep in mind that only a small part of the clergy actually comes from the Schola. Still, given that these institutions are run by the Ecclesiarchy it at least seems to be a recognized principle within the Church.
Then we also know that one of the four Chaos Gods (ab)uses lust and sexual desire to corrupt people's minds, so it is possible that knowledge of this - gained by observing and analyzing the pleasure cults occasionally popping up within the Emperor's domain - has led to an understanding that these things can, in fact, be dangerous. Needless to say, that doesn't prevent people from giving in to it, both within mild, perhaps even prudish manners (doggy style? HERESY!) all the way up to excesses and orgies practiced within the isolated chambers of noble strongholds. Generally, it seems the further you go up in terms of influence and power, the more corrupt Imperial society becomes.
The only truly celibate groups in the Imperium would be the Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus. SMs because they are chem-gelded as part of the process that makes them a SM and I would imagine the AM just don't have any interest in those kinds of biological functions.
If we go by GW fluff, it'd apply to the Sororitas as well:
"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation, and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sisters Superior who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline and brook no distraction from their duties." - 2E C:SoB
So unless we want to delve into certain clichés here ...
Fun detail: WD contained a battle scenario for playing the Necron attack on the SoB convent on Sanctuary 101. When playing as Sisters, your army wasn't allowed to contain any male characters.
I don't think there's widespread celibacy throughout the Imperium. I mean how else do humans repopulate themselves or how does an IG regiment get created if everyone is celibate. It looks like the everyday citizen and most everyone else in the Imperium is far from celibate. I bet the IG guys are typical soldiers wanting to mess around with the local town girls just to get some fun in if you get my meaning.
CrashCanuck wrote:The only truly celibate groups in the Imperium would be the Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus. SMs because they are chem-gelded as part of the process that makes them a SM and I would imagine the AM just don't have any interest in those kinds of biological functions.
A lot of people keep saying that space marines are neutered in one way or another but I've never seen it written elsewhere.
Does it say so in one of the Black Library books or something?
CrashCanuck wrote:The only truly celibate groups in the Imperium would be the Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus. SMs because they are chem-gelded as part of the process that makes them a SM and I would imagine the AM just don't have any interest in those kinds of biological functions.
A lot of people keep saying that space marines are neutered in one way or another but I've never seen it written elsewhere.
Does it say so in one of the Black Library books or something?
And if so which one?
I dont think it's so much as they are neutered specifically, but just that the chemical treatment they receive...knocks it offline? Plus the psycho treatment they receive and training that must occur pretty much ensure no time to actually use the equipment.
Sex is normal in the Imperium as it is normal today ( logically, no sex = dying race [Eldar] ) with some exceptions in several cases.
Space Marines don't have urge for that at all, because all they know is war and conquest. The exception would be Space Wolves, but beside drinking and eating like a pig I am still to see one of them engaged in such activities.
Adeptus Mechanicus think that Human body and it's emotions are weak, so the other basic of their machine cult is to get rid of all emotions in your body. The only exception to this rule is techpristes that had a relationship with Gaunt ( or Cain, I can't remember ). It was even noted that it was a great sin.
Sisters of Battle.... many debate them as not-celibate at all. But seeing that they see all kinds of pleasure as a sin ( because it makes you deviate from your duty toward Emperor ) no Sister would embrace such a thing because having sex means having a ton of pleasure. The only exception I know about is that retired Sister from Cain novels... ( of course, before that I didn't know that pension is possible for them at all ). Anyway...any Sister caught in this "unholy deed" would be promoted to Repentia.
Other Imperial organisations are like standard Humans....Guard and even Inquisition have no objections when it come to this.
No there ain't any policy on the issue about Sisters of Battle having sex, so caught with her power armour down would likely only have the other Sorotitas laughing about a Sister of Battle for the rest of her life only . From Cain it was just that in general he regarded them as too fanatical to have relationships, and they also are damn good in rugby, because they thought the goal of the game was to hospitalize the opposition.
Also it must be noted the military arm of the Sororitas seem to be based on the Fishspeakers of the Dune-universe. The other parts seem to be Bene Genesises and such parts, so I can see them actually maybe even having a husband. The Fishspeakers have husbands, but they are non-military.
Well Gaunt and Cain certainly has had lots of sex. The Inquisition has been known for their numbers of sluts and rakes as well.
Beaviz81 wrote:Ain't the blood of Space Marines poisonous? Wouldn't that like disintegrate the womb of the woman they had sex with?
Someone here needs to take a crash course in human biology...
Back to thread, celibacy only seems to be enforced amongst Space Marines (including Grey Knights), Sororitas, and probably the higher echelons of the Ecclesiarchy and the AdMech.
Unsurprisingy, all of them being meritocratic elites.
The commisariat raises doubts. As commisars are orphans trained from birth at the facilities of the Schola Progenium, there's no risk in Yarrick Jr. using birthright, influence and foreknowledge to upset the organizational status quo. On the other side, "only in death does duty end": They're probably too focused on their jobs to settle down and start making babies. That doesn't preclude the occasional tryst, though...
Its one of those long disscussed points - the reference material is for reasons noted reasonably vague.
As menitioned there are various references in the novels to sexual partners
Cain has loads including with an Inquisitor, his liasion with the Adeptus Mechanicus lady is not noted as a sin as I recall and she later comes back as Magos - although very little humanity is left other than her sense of humour.
Guant has is share and many of his Regiment have lovers, wives, children
Kal Jerico does
Cains fav Regiment does - he even sites the related issues that can arise with mixed sex regiments as a bit of a pain.
The Inquistor and the Psyker in Scourge the Heretic were previously lovers - in the same novel it talks about the Redemptionists being celebate but this is noted as being fanaticial and unusual
An offcer and unit psyker are lovers in Gunheads Tallaran novel
and so on - like so many things in 40K the relationship to sex will be complex and related to upbringing and how your home world, city, Regiment etc views it. Some may see it as a sin - others that propogation is a duty to the Emperor and any pleasure gained a gift from Him.......
Re the Sisters - its very likely they are celibate - they were certainly abused as concubines by Vandire as the "Brides of the Emperor" and that humiliation is likely still felt. Everyopne in the Imperium (including Cain) assumes that they are celebate.................they are very big on pleasure is bad
Gaunt wasn't inducted until he was 12. Technically I'm a bit iffy about how orphaned Gaunt was, sure daddy and mommy was dead. But he was living with aunite and the family chef. Heck he has had a better childhood than people I know.
The best 40K romance is in Double Eagle between a pilot and a woman factory worker, IMO. Very touching, and gave you a feel for the lives of ordinary people. Much more interesting than hearing about various superbeings.
It's tiresome hearing about the various gory ways things die. I like more the personality things. The best parts of The Founding was the flashbacks. I really loved them. Of course some violence shall be involved.
I also sort of developed two commissars myself who are happy in a relationship (they came together at the schoola), they later forcefully marries the sister of the male to a guy, she ends up happily married, a Cannoness, Planetary Ruler (with her mate) and having a lot of kids.
Actually, in the Cain books, it says that the sisters don't have to be celibate but most of them are too busy praying/scourging heretics/getting killed by the GK
Ma55ter_fett wrote:A lot of people keep saying that space marines are neutered in one way or another but I've never seen it written elsewhere.
Does it say so in one of the Black Library books or something?
I don't recall ever having read it anywhere - it seems to be one of those "community opinions" often presented as fact. There's a number of instances in novels where a Marine would have a chance of engaging a woman but doesn't, which commonly gets interpreted this way (for example, I think someone mentioned a Horus Heresy book where some girl saw a naked Space Marine and she was like "aw, such a waste" or something), just like members of the "Marines need to have dicks!" faction like to interpret some line (a SW "making a pass" at some woman in the SW Codex) in the way that they could do sex. So it all hinges on your perception.
Personally, I think it would make a lot of sense to have them neutered, though, given that the Emperor would not want them to have a "functioning package" anyways. Space Marines are not only warriors first and foremost, they are warriors only - raised and bred purely for battle and not having the luxury of possibly allowing their dicks to distract them from combat, nor do I believe that the Emperor would wish to risk Marines breeding with the population, as this would take control of the geneseed away from Terra and enable rogue Marines to raise as many troops as they'd want. Someone also mentioned that the Emperor saw the Astartes as a temporary measure to win the Great Crusade and that they were meant to fade away into history once all was done, and that he did not want them to replace normal humans (which would happen over time were they to breed, as they are biologically superior).
Then, there's also the matter of biology and mechanics. Given all the chemicals and pseudo-steroids the Marines are pumped full with, I wouldn't be surprised if their package were to atrophy as it happens to bodybuilders who manage to knock their hormone ratio out of balance. Finally, again going by GW, their power armour comes with a waste recycler, and the urine tube needs to be plugged in somewhere. Given the small aversion the 40k setting has as a whole concerning plugging stuff into their bodies, guess what would make the most sense when some piece of organic material isn't required for the soldier's function?
But this, too, is something where everybody needs to make up their own opinion. I'm merely pointing out that Marines are extensively modified and tailored for a singular purpose in life, and that said purpose doesn't really involve sticking it into wimmenz. Also makes becoming a Space Marine somewhat more grimdark, I think, as it takes away another bit of their humanity.
Brother Coa wrote:The only exception I know about is that retired Sister from Cain novels... ( of course, before that I didn't know that pension is possible for them at all ).
Sisters do not really "retire", much like medieval nuns didn't - the Liber Sororitas only notes that they transfer from one Order to the other when they get older and are no longer fit for certain duties. Doesn't take much wit or physical strength to take a post in the librarium eyeing all the young novices tho.
The Cain books are just a - warning, personal opinion following - really piss-poor depiction of the Sororitas, Commissars and the Schola in general. The author either did not bother to read up on the source material or did not care about it when writing his satire, and it shows by a number of contradictions. Wasn't that (ex?)-Sister even an instructor in the Schola? One should think that the teachers there are particularly strict and carefully chosen when purity is such a highly valued good. Not to mention that characters who have lived their entire life in a convent, forsaking physical pleasures out of an obligation to their faith, don't simply drop all that even IF they ever retire.
There's quite simply a lot of stuff not making sense in those books when looking at other 40k material, which is why I cringe every time they are even mentioned in a fluff discussion.
"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan." - 2E C:SoB
Alas, as with all 40k fluff, even these books would be a valid interpretation of the setting if one were to prefer them. Of course, doing so would mean having to dismiss a lot of the studio's own material to avoid the contradictions.
Beaviz81 wrote:No there ain't any policy on the issue about Sisters of Battle having sex, [...]
If we would go by GW fluff, I wouldn't be so sure about this. They have a ton of rules (the WD Liber Sororitas gives a few examples, with the highest-numbered rule being #785 from volume 12 of the "Rule of Sororitas" series of tomes), and given that they do practice "constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work" (Codex Imperialis) as part of their sacrifice to the Emperor, it stands to reason that the neglect of physical pleasures is amongst them.
So just because some crap novel goes against all the stuff written by GW themselves, a "no" sounds a bit absolute. If at all one would have to acknowledge that the sources differ depending on who wrote them. Sadly, this applies to a lot of fluff in 40k, which is entirely intended as per the ones who manage the brand.
Beaviz81 wrote:Ain't the blood of Space Marines poisonous? Wouldn't that like disintegrate the womb of the woman they had sex with?
you do not ejaculate blood. If you do, you should really see a doctor.
Anyway, I always thought the Imperium will treat sex as an extremely taboo topic, and would only condone it if its for strictly reproductive reasons. A bit like in the middle ages.
Well there's a whole load of people in the Imperium. 100 billion on a single hive world, say.
To paraphrase Bill Hicks: "Well, we're all here...someone's been [Mod Edit - No expletives, please!]' "
Can't make a human without sex.
Well the Space Marine blood might be poisonous, so the sperm is likely as well. It's a bad thing if your sperm eats up the womb of your latest fuckee. I was actually just trying to be classy about the whole sha-blang.
As for humans without sex, go read about Krieg.
Melissa, it doesn't state expressively that sex is a no-no. It can be taken that way of course, but also the Sisters of Battle seem to be based on the Fishspeakers from Dune, and they had husbands. For me, I go for the widest possible interpretation at every corner. But read Dune, and the Sororitas really are based on them. Of course it's an open debate whether or not they can have sex. My policy is simple: It varies.
Celebacy in the name of the Emperor ("I cleave only unto the Emperor", an oath taken by both men and women oddly enough) is considered acceptable and even good in Imperial society. THough usually it also involves being castrated in the first place ("chem gelt", indicating it's a one-time chemical treatment that removes that urge from your body entirely).
Joey wrote:Well there's a whole load of people in the Imperium. 100 billion on a single hive world, say. To paraphrase Bill Hicks: "Well, we're all here...someone's been fuckin' " Can't make a human without sex.
As I said, reproductive reasons. But yeah, you make a good point.
@Beaviz Why would the semen be poisonous if the blood is? Does it specify why the blood is poisonous? Is it due to a protein, Ph, whatever? And does it say "blood" or bodily fluids?
Ehm I can see the validity of your argument Melissa, I just think service of the Emperor happens in a lot of ways. It doesn't go against fluff if a SOB marries and has loads of children in my mind, and mind you, nuns IRL rarely exhibit the angry traits of the angry nuns. The closest there were the Sarmartian women who had to kill to marry (a concept I sort of wanted to use).
Seriously Cthulusspy and TheRobotlol it was from Ciaphas Cain, and seconded by Amberley Veil, but diseases who transfer through blood also does the same through intercourse. How old are you again? Didn't they teach you basic biology at school?
Beaviz81 wrote:It can be taken that way of course, but also the Sisters of Battle seem to be based on the Fishspeakers from Dune, and they had husbands
Sisters are also based on Jeanne d'Arc and Christian nuns.
To reiterare: "The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. Its members are fanatical in their commitment. The slightest deviation from approved stricture leads to the most severe chastisement." - Codex Imperialis
"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation and it is generally only the Canoness and her most trusted Sisters Superior who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline and brook no distraction from their studies." - 2E C:SoB
"It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering. Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?" - Canoness in the 3E 40k Rulebook
The above bits of GW fluff do seem to be utterly incompatible with the notion that Sisters are free to engage in physical pleasures whenever they want. Now, the fickle nature of 40k fluff allows us to pursue deviating interpretations - I'm merely pointing out that they do not work in conjunction with what we are presented by the guys who actually wrote the setting, so you'd simply have to decide whether you want to go with the GW version or some licensed novel author's personal idea.
The GW-version never actually mentions that they swear vows of chastity Lynata, the nearest is chastised, and that's punishment. Plus I don't think all Sisters of Battle are Redemptionists.
Of course I don't fancy the idea of slutty nuns, if I did, I wouldn't be here. I mentioned the idea of marriage, heck the example I brought up was even arranged. So look at the Victorian way for women to have sex, one permitted position, never liking it, just for producing offspring.
My personal opinion is that the historical references behind the Imperium indicate abstinence because that's what those societies were like, but I think in actual 40k, any sexual abstinence would be considered sabotage against the Imperium, specifically against the IG. They'd probably go so far as to consider playing WoW to be heresy. I'm basing this on their need for manpower and ridiculous casualties.
Cain Alludes to it frequently. HE mentions having an affiar with a naval officer,
He also has something of a de-facto marriage with Amberly Veil(which she freely admits)
And he was a Commissar in a mixed gender regiment Veil says "The inevitable would happen and Cain would have to make sure all parties are safe"
So yeah, Its happens alot.
Seriously Cthulusspy and TheRobotlol it was from Ciaphas Cain, and seconded by Amberley Veil, but diseases who transfer through blood also does the same through intercourse. How old are you again? Didn't they teach you basic biology at school?
I am fairly sure that poison is a tad different from disease...
Seriously Cthulusspy and TheRobotlol it was from Ciaphas Cain, and seconded by Amberley Veil, but diseases who transfer through blood also does the same through intercourse. How old are you again? Didn't they teach you basic biology at school?
I am fairly sure that poison is a tad different from disease...
The kicker is that the Space Marines are known to spit acid. So good luck figuring out what their semen would be like, but rest assured it won't be nice.
Seriously Cthulusspy and TheRobotlol it was from Ciaphas Cain, and seconded by Amberley Veil, but diseases who transfer through blood also does the same through intercourse. How old are you again? Didn't they teach you basic biology at school?
I am fairly sure that poison is a tad different from disease...
The kicker is that the Space Marines are known to spit acid. So good luck figuring out what their semen would be like, but rest assured it won't be nice.
I don't think the toxicity of the semen will be that big of a problem compared to this
Replace all references to superman with SM, and you will get the point.
Beaviz81 wrote:Ehm I can see the validity of your argument Melissa, I just think service of the Emperor happens in a lot of ways. It doesn't go against fluff if a SOB marries and has loads of children in my mind, and mind you, nuns IRL rarely exhibit the angry traits of the angry nuns. The closest there were the Sarmartian women who had to kill to marry (a concept I sort of wanted to use).
Seriously Cthulusspy and TheRobotlol it was from Ciaphas Cain, and seconded by Amberley Veil, but diseases who transfer through blood also does the same through intercourse. How old are you again? Didn't they teach you basic biology at school?
Beaviz, mate, I can't think of a single tactical situation in which acid semen can be of any use...
Anyways, my weirdboy powaz foresee the imminent closure of this thread, but...
Fish Speakers, as well as Bene Gesserit, used marriage for political gain, to manoeuvre themselves into positions of power from where to further their organizational goals.
In the decadent, grimdark Empire of the 41st Millenium, the Ecclesiarchy and the Sororitas MAY act the same way, but without hard evidence this is nothing but wild speculation.
What we know about the Sororitas right now depicts them as an elite humanitarian/military corps, subject to heavy political and religious indoctrination. Nothing about them being treasure brides or expert concubines to date.
Nothing of the fluff states the Sororitas to be totally chaste. This is wide open, so a discussion is sort of moot. Sure the fluff could easily be interpreted that way, but it can be interpreted that marriage and childbirth is also a huge burden. I weigh this on historical reasons as well as established fluff, and I personally prefer a wide-open interpretation of the fluff as that makes the most sense for me. Of course the Sororitas living in convents usually didn't indulge in sex, but what's forbidden is also alluring and doesn't need to lead directly to chaos.
Lynata wrote:The Cain books are just a - warning, personal opinion following - really piss-poor depiction of the Sororitas, Commissars and the Schola in general. The author either did not bother to read up on the source material or did not care about it when writing his satire, and it shows by a number of contradictions. Wasn't that (ex?)-Sister even an instructor in the Schola? One should think that the teachers there are particularly strict and carefully chosen when purity is such a highly valued good. Not to mention that characters who have lived their entire life in a convent, forsaking physical pleasures out of an obligation to their faith, don't simply drop all that even IF they ever retire.
There's quite simply a lot of stuff not making sense in those books when looking at other 40k material, which is why I cringe every time they are even mentioned in a fluff discussion.
Actually IMO there are not................there is one character depicted that tends to cause these discussions but she is completely at odds (and I do wonder if this was the point of the character) with every other depiciton of the Adepta Sororitas in the Cain Novels, even given that the "in book author" himself really does not like them and tends to be overely harsh when describing their actions. They are without exception shown as deeply religious (even Sister Julian is a Emperor botherer in Cains paralance), fanatical and extremely competant fighters - in fact far more so than a number of other BL novels............ and I have read almost all of them..
I can say that Mr Mitchel does read up on the material having had the pleasure of meeting the author on one occcassion and discussing things like research. ........There are plenty of accurate and informed references in the novels to attest to this.
On other matters - poltical manipulation Bene Gen(whatever the word is) style like in Dune is absolutely how the Order Famulous seems to work:
from the old Codex:
"They serve the nobles and Imperial Commanders of the Imperium as advisors and chatelaines....In this way the Ecclesiarchy maintains a fairly tight control over the most powerful individuals in the Imperium."
Regarding the Sisters as Concubines- this absolutely does not happen now - it was just another element of the of corruption and depravity of Gorge Vandire - again from the old codex:
"The Brides not only served as Vandire's bodyguard, but also as servants and comnpanions. They tasted the High Lord's food, fed him when he fell weak with illness, nursed his frail body and entertained him with singing, dancing and other, more exotic skills."
Mr. Morden that hopefully mean my suggestion about the married Cannoness is good to go? At a personal level, I'm very disappointed that you didn't use the picture of the brilliant Mr. Morden from Babylon 5.
It must also be noted dogma often does nothing other than rile up opposing persons, and worse much fluff comes up looking like pure propaganda. So I'd advice against following it too literally.
Beaviz81 wrote:Ehm I can see the validity of your argument Melissa, I just think service of the Emperor happens in a lot of ways. It doesn't go against fluff if a SOB
I have not once, in this thread, mentioned Sisters.
Beaviz81 wrote:Ehm I can see the validity of your argument Melissa, I just think service of the Emperor happens in a lot of ways. It doesn't go against fluff if a SOB
I have not once, in this thread, mentioned Sisters.
I know, well Redemtionists ain't that popular in the IoM. Some regards them as worse than Chaos worshipers.
Mr. Morden I found that odd when you dared to create the daughter of Mr. Morden, but why not? And the marriage happened to be the lasgun-version of Charles and Diana.
No, redemptionists are perfectly fine with baby making in the emperor's name. They have a problem with hedonism (having sex is not by itself hedonism), mutants, and anyone who isn't a strict orthodox Imperialist.
Melissia wrote:No, redemptionists are perfectly fine with baby making in the emperor's name. They have a problem with hedonism (having sex is not by itself hedonism), mutants, and anyone who isn't a strict orthodox Imperialist.
Mr Morden wrote:However I don't think that you are supposed to enjoy the process of baby making if you are a proper Redemptionist
Why not? Service to the Emperor (including continuing production of the population) is its own reward!
For normal Emperor fearing folk yes that may be true but everything I have ever read (from codexes to novels thorugh Necromunda) has the redemptionists as total fanatics - they are even considerd so by the Church itself and have on occassion in some places been proscribed by them . Taking pleasure in anything other than worshping Him seems to be a Sin and even then you better not enjoy it too much.
IMO Redemptionists are totally uncompromising religious fanatics who often hate themselves as much as everyone else and uinlike say the Sisters don't really have an signs that they are any more blessed by Him than anyone else.............
Mr Morden wrote:For normal Emperor fearing folk yes that may be true but everything I have ever read (from codexes to novels thorugh Necromunda) has the redemptionists as total fanatics
Yes, but fanaticism itself dosen't mean that they can't celebrate making a child as an act of worship to the Emperor.
Fanatics are weird, yo.
Beaviz81 wrote:Mellissia just adopt the 19th century Victorian thingy
For what its worth the bit In Necromunda (which seems the primary source for them?) says:
"Sin must be purged from the race by fire, blood and faith.
Sin comes in many forms:
Drinking, Gambling, lying, cheating, profanity, lechery, fornication (even thinking about fornication is sinful) and shooting innocent hardworking folk like Redmeptionists."
For what its worth the bit In Necromunda (which seems the primary source for them?) says:
"Sin must be purged from the race by fire, blood and faith.
Sin comes in many forms:
Drinking, Gambling, lying, cheating, profanity, lechery, fornication (even thinking about fornication is sinful) and shooting innocent hardworking folk like Redmeptionists."
That me and the rest of DakaDaka going up in flames then.
Agent_Tremolo wrote:Beaviz, mate, I can't think of a single tactical situation in which acid semen can be of any use...
Tell that to noise marines
Heh Heh Heh.
You, gentlemen, are evil.
*Produces his bolt pistol*
MrMorden: I had somehow pictured the Sisters of the Orders Famulous as wizened hags with an encyclopedic knowledge of all things imperial, from history and tradition to seemingly frivolous palace gossip but, now you mention it, probably acting as procuresses or match-makers is not beyond their abilities.
Actually it's specifically described as one of their duties. They play matchamker with nobles, attemping to arrange marriages which encourages peace amongst nobility.
It works to a point, nobility will always be underhanded bastards in 40k after all, but at least there's few instances of open war.
Also, Famulous are depicted as the most attractive and fashion-sensitive of the Sisters in Dark Heresy, likely due to dealing with nobility.
Agreed - its 40K there will be attractive, manipulative Famoulous and also more Adept like Sisters. The Sororitas will send the most appropriate woman to get the job done.
Also as I don't see why some daughters of the nobility with the right temprement could not be dispatched to the Sororitas and they they may reatain specalist knowledge and connections .... once suitably enlightened they would be a useful assest for the Sisterhood.
Tadashi wrote:Obviously, 'abhor the deviant' being a given, homosexuality, bisexuality, and other non-mainline sexual ideas and relationships are not tolerated without incurring the risk of Inquisitorial investigation.
To hell with that bs.
As far as I'm concerned, the Imperium should stick to the bigotry that actually makes sense for the setting - hatred of Chaos-worshipping heretics, Warp-tapping witches and various genocidal aliens. There's a clear path by which the Imperium could backslide into such (well deserved) prejudices. In contrast, there's nothing there to compel an advanced civilisation that has been free of homophobia for 20,000 years to go back to being a bunch of prudish neo-Catholics.
To borrow from Terry Pratchet: "Black and white lived in perfect harmony and ganged up on green."
Also, with the Sisters, I say the most important rule would be "don't get pregnant" (as derived from "don't let it interfere with your duties"), not "don't have sex, ever".
Tadashi wrote:Obviously, 'abhor the deviant' being a given, homosexuality, bisexuality, and other non-mainline sexual ideas and relationships are not tolerated without incurring the risk of Inquisitorial investigation.
To hell with that bs.
As far as I'm concerned, the Imperium should stick to the bigotry that actually makes sense for the setting - hatred of Chaos-worshipping heretics, Warp-tapping witches and various genocidal aliens. There's a clear path by which the Imperium could backslide into such (well deserved) prejudices. In contrast, there's nothing there to compel an advanced civilisation that has been free of homophobia for 20,000 years to go back to being a bunch of prudish neo-Catholics.
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And in keeping with the Roman aspect of the setting it would be natural and expected in some circles.
I amdead serious about Marines 'initiating the scouts'.
Bestiality, necrophilia, sex with servitors, sex with your lasgun "Lucille", sex with the xeno, sex with the mutant (varies by planet and type of mutant, abhuman or Corrupt), and so forth and so on.
I would think that since the Imperium was founded upon the principle of humanity being the most dominate race in the universe, and "the perfection of the human form", that sex as a rule across the Empire would be a non-issue if not encouraged. I mean, the sea of guardsmen have to come from somewhere after all.
It would just very by world, just like it varies by country, state or even city here on earth (and, of course, which religious cult you find yourself a part of). Mainstream Imperial society will have Taboos, while Deathcult members will most likely be far more strict on the issues, etc.
Hmm, or not... Deathcults are really weird. They could have a whole Thanateros (Thanatos [Death] + Eros [Sex]) thing going on... which is why they wear those skintight black latex bodygloves and carry knives and swords, which are athame, which are phallic symbols.
Beaviz81 wrote:The GW-version never actually mentions that they swear vows of chastity Lynata, the nearest is chastised, and that's punishment. Plus I don't think all Sisters of Battle are Redemptionists.
Sisters are Sisters - they do not follow any of the usual Ecclesiarchal tendencies but their own, and each of them is raised with exactly the same belief, in exactly the same curriculum, with exactly the same values drilled into their manipulable little heads, so I don't see how they could possibly differ much from each other aside from the usual personal interpretations of said values.
GW fluff doesn't have to specify vows of chastity because it pretty much points it out anyways. Sex is pleasure, pleasure is a no-go. Sex is also a distraction from their duties, which is a no-go as well. As is referenced in the fluff I quoted above. It's as simple as that.
And really, babies? Why in the Emperor's name would they need to do that? The Imperium is chock-full of ordinary women and certainly there is no shortage of bodies for the grinder, including new progena for the Schola. It simply doesn't make sense to take a highly trained warrior of the Orders Militant out of active duty for several months for the sole reason to produce offspring when there's no shortage to begin with. Same with the non-militant Orders. Their skills are needed elsewhere, as they're more than a womb and a set of DNA.
Now, I'm not saying you couldn't go ahead and still follow your perception of the setting, as any of us is free to pursue their own interpretation - I'm just saying that the stuff written by GW themselves is pretty clear on the subject.
Mr Morden wrote:Actually IMO there are not................there is one character depicted that tends to cause these discussions [...]
It should be at least two, and I know as much simply going by what I hear about them on these forums. There's no way I could see a coward becoming a Commissar, for such position is reserved for the worthy and most martially inclined. A progena unwilling to fight on the battlefields of the 41st millennium actually does not have to do so, as the Schola would simply enroll him in the Administratum to become a lowly civilian scribe, or at the very worst send him to the Imperial Guard. If a case like Cain were to be possible, the discipline of the entire Imperial Guard would be threatened.
Personally, I think it'd be best to take that novel as what it probably was meant for: a satire. Nobody assumes that series like "MASH" or "Hogan's Heroes" were an accurate depiction of life in the military, so why should there be a difference with novels when they are clearly written in a tongue-in-cheek tone?
Mr Morden wrote:in fact far more so than a number of other BL novels............ and I have read almost all of them..
That's because most BL novels do a poor job in depicting them in general, as they're most often either used as cheap adversaries or perhaps simple add-ons to the story where it just seems as if the author didn't get them right because he didn't bother to look up all their fluff, as they only show up in a single scene anyways. The only goodBL stories with Sisters I've read so far were Daemonifuge, Faith & Fire, Hammer & Anvil and the two shorts The Invitation and Daemonblood. Of course this is a purely subjective matter, and I'm sure my expectations on an author writing Sisters stuff is higher than most other readers'. But be that as it may, the Cain books rank amongst the least I would recommend to anyone wishing to read up on the Sororitas, simply because the depiction of that Schola Progenium teacher so fundamentally goes against the entire spirit of the army that you'd think they are Guardswomen in power armour.
Again, look at their description in the 3E rulebook and tell me it doesn't clash with the Cain books, and strongly so.
Mr Morden wrote:I can say that Mr Mitchel does read up on the material having had the pleasure of meeting the author on one occcassion and discussing things like research.
So he chose to disregard the 2E Codex deliberately. Well, it's somewhat better than simply not bothering to look at the source material at all, I guess.
Mr Morden wrote:Also as I don't see why some daughters of the nobility with the right temprement could not be dispatched to the Sororitas and they they may reatain specalist knowledge and connections
Because they'd send the girl to the normal Church instead, I reckon. Sisters are Schola orphans, this kind of upbringing is their chief defence against corruption and the reason they are the most loyal force of the Imperium right after the Grey Knights. Unless you (once again) look to the licensed material where they may indeed take in "outsiders", for whatever reason.
Mr Morden wrote:Actually IMO there are not................there is one character depicted that tends to cause these discussions [...]
It should be at least two, and I know as much simply going by what I hear about them on these forums. There's no way I could see a coward becoming a Commissar, for such position is reserved for the worthy and most martially inclined. A progena unwilling to fight on the battlefields of the 41st millennium actually does not have to do so, as the Schola would simply enroll him in the Administratum to become a lowly civilian scribe, or at the very worst send him to the Imperial Guard. If a case like Cain were to be possible, the discipline of the entire Imperial Guard would be threatened.
Personally, I think it'd be best to take that novel as what it probably was meant for: a satire. Nobody assumes that series like "MASH" or "Hogan's Heroes" were an accurate depiction of life in the military, so why should there be a difference with novels when they are clearly written in a tongue-in-cheek tone?.
Cain is not a Coward - he says he is but he is not - although one of the inspirations is the Flashman novels - he is very different in personality. He does plenty of fighting (and is excellent with a sword) but part of the humour is that he keeps trying to find a nice quiet position and failing usually having to fight his way out - very effectively.
Lynata wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:in fact far more so than a number of other BL novels............ and I have read almost all of them..
That's because most BL novels do a poor job in depicting them in general, as they're most often either used as cheap adversaries or perhaps simple add-ons to the story where it just seems as if the author didn't get them right because he didn't bother to look up all their fluff, as they only show up in a single scene anyways. The only goodBL stories with Sisters I've read so far were Daemonifuge, Faith & Fire, Hammer & Anvil and the two shorts The Invitation and Daemonblood. Of course this is a purely subjective matter, and I'm sure my expectations on an author writing Sisters stuff is higher than most other readers'. But be that as it may, the Cain books rank amongst the least I would recommend to anyone wishing to read up on the Sororitas, simply because the depiction of that Schola Progenium teacher so fundamentally goes against the entire spirit of the army that you'd think they are Guardswomen in power armour. Again, look at their description in the 3E rulebook and tell me it doesn't clash with the Cain books, and strongly so..
As I keep saying, the numerous other Sororitas characters in the book match exactly the descriptions and source material............
Sister Julian was obviously put in for a specific reason and is counter to every other Sororitas in the books - which I feel was the point.
Re "Simply Guardswomen in power armour" again nope, absolutely not how they are described..........again they are described very much as beacons of faith to all that encounter them and all who encounter them are very respectful of both their prowess in combat (Cain questions their tatical overview but even he is impressed by their prowess in battle) and their devotion.
Mr Morden wrote:Sister Julian was obviously put in for a specific reason and is counter to every other Sororitas in the books - which I feel was the point.
So what exactly WAS the point?
People keep complaining about Goto's Space Marines, but going by what I've heard this character is seriously not any better. Rather even worse. Especially since people keep pulling her as "proof" for Sisters being free to sleep around.
Cain isn't a coward, he just has a severe case of self-doubt and overly criticises himself.
Anyway, the sister in Cain's Last Stand was probably Mitchell's first attempt to create a likable religious character so I have to cut him some slack, even if the result was facepalm-inducing.
There's no such thing as canon in the WH40K verse according to Gav Thorpe, so hell. Sisters of Battle are probably super promiscuous, and fight in bondage.
I think it's safe to take the stance that Sisters are celibate. Adeptus Mechanicus would be celibate inasmuch as most of their bodies aren't organic, and those who retain mostly squishy bodies would consider the flesh, and its pleasures, weak and contemptible. As for the Schola, well... the students are segregated along gender lines, but that doesn't guarantee celibacy... at least, not permanently. I'm sure graduates of the Schola programs can get their freak on after graduation, provided they haven't transfered into a celibate organization (ie; the Sisters)... I have no difficulty believing that Commissars can have sex. They are just Soviet-era Kommissars (IN SPAAACE), I'm sure those guys had sex once in a while...
I don't buy into the whole "Space Marines have atrophied genitals" thing. I can see them being celibate, just like the Sisters (and indeed, like the medieval warrior-monk groups they are patterned after) but having their dangly bits removed chemically? Not a chance. For a start, the historical inspiration for SM didn't have a habit of castration. Secondly, it is heavily implied in the SW codex that Space Wolves go carousing and drinking. If memory serves, I think one of the stories about a SW in the codex mentions him being found by his subordinates in a bed with several women. Not a likely place to be if his dong was disabled (or maybe he's just a really, really good... orator )... Though I may be misremembering that.
As for controling the geneseed through implantation, I think it has been stated (a long time ago... maybe 2nd edition) that geneseed traits cannot be passed through reproduction, which is why Marines have to undergo the implantation process...
Lastly, why would all those Marines turn to worshipping Slaanesh if their little scouts weren't saluting? What's the point of joining the God of Debauchery if you don't have anything to get properly debauched with? Sure, you can drink to excess, but there's more to debauchery than alcohol poisoning. And don't say that the first thing Slaanesh gives his SM followers is a wang... if Marines are chem gelded and have atrophied, unworking weiners how would they know that they want a wang that works? They've done without dangly bits since before they hit puberty...
Slaanesh: Join me and I will grant you every pleasure known to man! And a few that are unknown, but still pretty kewl. And I can give you a working wang!
Prospective Traitor Marine: What does that mean?
Slaanesh: I can make your tool work...
PTM: Yeah, I mean, what does "working" mean? All it normally does is kinda wilt there.
Slaanesh: You can do more than urinate out of it, kid!
PTM: Wait, you can urinate out of it? I never knew that. I have this tube in my armor, you see...
Slaanesh: Ew. But no, there are other uses! All of them naughty! You can use it on women!
PTM: Why would I want to urinate on a woman?
Slaanesh: Ummm... that's not what I meant, kid. That's more of the "Advanced" debauchery class, you're still a beginner. I'm talking about sex.
PTM: What about sex? I'm a male.
Slaanesh: No, I mean "sex" not "gender"... Sex is a thing you do, gender is a thing you are.
PTM: Really? I never knew that. I guess this Chaos thing is a lot more complicated than I thought. I was just looking for a quick thrill, but maybe I should reconsider...
Slaanesh: I can't believe I gave up a lucrative career in tranny porn for this gig...
Or something along those lines...
Where was I? I forget? Oh yeah, SM have dangly bits; they work fine, but they are discouraged from using them in the same manner that Sisters are discouraged from using their womanly parts. Most Marines aren't interested in sex, as it distracts them from kicking @$$ for the Emperor. Except for possibly the Space Wolves, who are based on vikings, who had a lot of sex, historically speaking.
squidhills wrote:Though I may be misremembering that.
I think you do. What I remember from the SW Codex is one of 'em "making a pass at a woman", whatever that may mean.
Also, Slaanesh isn't only about sex, though sexual lust is (unsurprisingly) the best way to corrupt people.
That being said, I don't think GW will ever comment on the subject one way or the other - it's the best way to not annoy either camp. For what it's worth, it shouldn't have any impact on Marine behavior either way, so it's not even an important topic. If you want a laugh, however, FFG's Deathwatch RPG forums have 14 pages of a thread dedicated to the question of whether or not a Space Marine can have sex.
I believe most of the Imperium...the hives and forges at least...and under some kind of population control...so you require a permit to have a family...at least I think in Titanicus one of the afore mentioned members of the married couple says about getting a permit to start a family.
I doubt they have forced celibacy...it's probably just a religious choice, as in real life.
LazzurusMan wrote:I believe most of the Imperium...the hives and forges at least...and under some kind of population control...so you require a permit to have a family...
I could totally see this for Mechanicus Forge Worlds - I like the idea that they are organized so strictly that people are essentially nothing but IDs, strings of numbers to be assigned and reassigned by an automated process depending on where the "human resources" are required. Population control would be just one part of a system designed to work just like the machines the Cult Mechanicus reveres.
For Hives, it'd probably be a bit more difficult. Upper levels... yeah, I guess it would be doable, at least concerning the common workers. But I'd say nobody cares what happens in the Underhive. Of course this too will differ depending on the world in question - or the individual's perception of the setting.
Ouf sounds bad, that's like being married to Boris, whose recreational hobbies consists of drinking booze and growing hair, even if he of the same gender as you because you are just standing next to each other on the production-line.
Melissia wrote:
Anyway, the sister in Cain's Last Stand was probably Mitchell's first attempt to create a likable religious character so I have to cut him some slack, even if the result was facepalm-inducing.
Really? I liekd the sister character in that book. It was different from Cain's usual view on the Sorortias (which showed up in book 5 I think?) and forced him to change his mind.
More to the point it makes the Sisters seem more than two dimensional caricatures. THey all shouldn't be identical in their beliefs or the way they act. It's almost as annoying as when someone writes Space Marines in a repetitive, one dimensional manner.
Brilliantly stated Connor. The SOB until now seem uninteresting due to their main trait is angry, seriously something else to add some color would be nice.
What SM did was maybe grasping at straws, but it was better than nothing.
It'd take a dedicated author to make Sisters more than merely two dimensional "angry girl burn heretics durr" characters (Sisters really don't have enough material because GW has neglected them for so long). Mitchell wasn't writing for Sisters in that book, he was writing Cain, who hates Sisters and therefor always has negative interpretations of them.
Ma55ter_fett wrote:A lot of people keep saying that space marines are neutered in one way or another but I've never seen it written elsewhere.
Does it say so in one of the Black Library books or something?
I don't recall ever having read it anywhere - it seems to be one of those "community opinions" often presented as fact. There's a number of instances in novels where a Marine would have a chance of engaging a woman but doesn't, which commonly gets interpreted this way (for example, I think someone mentioned a Horus Heresy book where some girl saw a naked Space Marine and she was like "aw, such a waste" or something), just like members of the "Marines need to have dicks!" faction like to interpret some line (a SW "making a pass" at some woman in the SW Codex) in the way that they could do sex. So it all hinges on your perception.
Personally, I think it would make a lot of sense to have them neutered, though, given that the Emperor would not want them to have a "functioning package" anyways. Space Marines are not only warriors first and foremost, they are warriors only - raised and bred purely for battle and not having the luxury of possibly allowing their dicks to distract them from combat, nor do I believe that the Emperor would wish to risk Marines breeding with the population, as this would take control of the geneseed away from Terra and enable rogue Marines to raise as many troops as they'd want. Someone also mentioned that the Emperor saw the Astartes as a temporary measure to win the Great Crusade and that they were meant to fade away into history once all was done, and that he did not want them to replace normal humans (which would happen over time were they to breed, as they are biologically superior).
Then, there's also the matter of biology and mechanics. Given all the chemicals and pseudo-steroids the Marines are pumped full with, I wouldn't be surprised if their package were to atrophy as it happens to bodybuilders who manage to knock their hormone ratio out of balance. Finally, again going by GW, their power armour comes with a waste recycler, and the urine tube needs to be plugged in somewhere. Given the small aversion the 40k setting has as a whole concerning plugging stuff into their bodies, guess what would make the most sense when some piece of organic material isn't required for the soldier's function?
But this, too, is something where everybody needs to make up their own opinion. I'm merely pointing out that Marines are extensively modified and tailored for a singular purpose in life, and that said purpose doesn't really involve sticking it into wimmenz. Also makes becoming a Space Marine somewhat more grimdark, I think, as it takes away another bit of their humanity.
By far the best answer I've ever gotten on the subject.
Maybe you should write fluff about them yourself Melissia, instead of just complaining about what a bigotted commissar thinks about them. For me, he seems to smark over old sport-results.
Melissia wrote:The problem is that it was basically just trying to play at titillating the reader rather than trying to make her a believable character.
Thats sandy mitchell for you. Look at the redemptionist he wrote up in his Dark Heresy novels. and then there were those Genestealer brothels...
Anyhow, Ben Counter and James Swallow write some decent Sisters. Asercarion was one of the better parts of the Soul Drinkers novels (and she is perhaps the only Imperial ever to bring a Space Marine back from Chaos. She's that hardcore.) And while I dont' always like the Swallow Sororitas, they generally come across as pretty complex and doing more than just polishing their bolters and shooting people.
There were also those hardcore Famulous in Crossfire who brought down an entire noble house just by using the servants.
Part of the problem si that some writers are always associating Sisters with the Ecclesiarchy (who are 90% donkey-caves) So if you get an donkey-cave priest, you're probably going to get some mindleslsly loyal donkey-cave sister.
Connor MacLeod wrote:More to the point it makes the Sisters seem more than two dimensional caricatures.
The problem is that Sisters, much like Space Marines or other heavily indoctrinated characters, are undoubtedly more difficult to describe and narrate than the average Joe, simply because their uniform upbringing and lifestyle specifically aims to press their personalities in a prefabricated mold. This has nothing to do with being two-dimensional; going against this mold only means that the end result will conflict with what the Adepta Sororitas represent as a whole and violate the spirit of the entire army. Proper representation of such a character requires a more delicate approach, highlighting the slight nuances that will still exist between them as a result out of unique personal experiences (unplanned incidents, potential acquaintances) and minor genetic predispositions (such as being more irritable due to the amount of adrenaline released in stress situations).
What Mitchell did was basically NOT the above but taking a hammer to the job and trying to bash "individuality" into the character by the bluntest way possible. Letting the character do stuff that so fundamentally conflicts with the entire belief system may set her apart for sure, but it also sets her apart from the traits that identify a Sororitas character in the first place.
Or in short, basically, what Melissia and Connor wrote. For what it's worth, it is quite difficult to hit the right string between the "two-dimensional" and "contradictory" extremes, and I do believe that the majority of authors (or roleplayers) fail at doing so, including most Marine fiction I've taken a glance at (though you'll always have the cop-out of just pointing at the Wolves there, I guess). I also think that a two-dimensional portrayal is still much better than one that so strongly goes against everything the Sisters are, though, for it is more than power armour and a prayer on their lips.
Anyways, I definitively agree with Counter and Swallow having done a much better job at balancing this. I'd also add Kev Walker (Daemonifuge) to that list - even though his job was somewhat easier as it focused on a single Sororitas character, I fondly remember the aged Prioress from Ophelia VII who managed to be badass without a weapon aside from her wit and words ("Let's have fate even the odds"), as well as Canoness Ramientes and her remarkably more "political" approach to dealing with the Inquisition when compared to the zealous younger Sisters.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Asercarion was one of the better parts of the Soul Drinkers novels (and she is perhaps the only Imperial ever to bring a Space Marine back from Chaos. She's that hardcore.)
Huh, did Aescarion pop up in more than just the short story "Daemonblood"? *blinks*
I don't think an even angrier nun is a good idea. They are already stereotypically angry. From what I'm getting from you Lynata I'm amazed the whole SOB ain't working for Khorne. The only feeling I see is anger. But the person for me who really destroyed the magic of the Sororitas was Dan Abnett. A Saint that gives Gaunt what he needs? WTF? Then she seduces Milo as well. Who came up with that Saint? Ron Jeremy?
If I should go deeper I would look into any other personality-trait. How hard do they repent and such? What are their desires? Favorite food? What is the general outline of the faith? I guess Mother Theresa might be a good enough rolemodel, and also most of the cadets likely washes out because they doesn't have what it takes to be pure enough of heart to be one.
Also unfortunately I can see priests taking advantage of young Sororitas (reality is a bitch). There likely exist scum-priests in WH40k. as well, and that could scar a nun quite good, while provide some explanation. Of course it must be noted that I in usual fashion is stabbing wildly.
Yeah they have Confessors. Sorry, you just can't take everything we have read that sort of is positive from monasteries without the negative things.
Even so, I personally think the problem is far greater than SM designing an out of character SOB. A Saint ran around having sex with multiple guys. I'm almost surprised DA didn't construct a brothel with SOBs. But with a Saint acting that way, of course the rest gets diluted, and it doesn't help one bit that DA and SM is the two most respected writers of WH40K.-fluff.
From what I'm getting from this, is that the SOB should be serving Khorne. Their sole feeling is anger. I mentioned a certain Saint that had sex, it was blatantly never mentioned again, and the Saints is the best of them.
Beaviz81 wrote:From what I'm getting from you Lynata I'm amazed the whole SOB ain't working for Khorne. The only feeling I see is anger.
Hate is a strong motivator - what keeps them in line are the hundreds of rules that serve to narrowly dictate it towards a singular specific purpose, the impressive discipline practiced by its members, and a strong conviction in serving a good cause. Egoism has practically been eliminated from their minds, they virtually live to serve, and their interconnectedness and endless trust/reliance in each other almost completely eliminate the possibility of corruption. Needless to say, this trust and selflessness can still be abused (see Vandire), but after the Age of Apostasy certain safeguards have been put in place designed to prevent that from happening ever again.
Beaviz81 wrote:But the person for me who really destroyed the magic of the Sororitas was Dan Abnett. A Saint that gives Gaunt what he needs? WTF? Then she seduces Milo as well. Who came up with that Saint? Ron Jeremy?
In case you're referring to Saint Sabbat - I've never actually read that book, but I vaguely know what it's about and what does her reincarnation (if it's even true) have to do with the Sororitas? The original Saint Sabbat existed before the Adepta Sororitas were even founded, and by far not every Saint is a Sister. That supposed reincarnation wasn't even from the Schola Progenium, it was some farmgirl from an agri-world. The only thing the Sororitas have in common with this "Saint" is their genitalia.
Beaviz81 wrote:and also most of the cadets likely washes out because they doesn't have what it takes to be pure enough of heart to be one.
I think "washing out" is only possible once you're still in the selection process in the Schola. According to the Liber Sororitas article in WD, once you're a member of the Orders, "washing out" means being transferred to the Repentia. Once you're in, you're literally "in for life".
Beaviz81 wrote:Also unfortunately I can see priests taking advantage of young Sororitas (reality is a bitch). There likely exist scum-priests in WH40k. as well, and that could scar a nun quite good, while provide some explanation. Of course it must be noted that I in usual fashion is stabbing wildly.
Going by the 2E blurb about the Schola Progenium, scum-priests don't get to serve in a Schola, and considering how strongly it is stressed in the text they likely have strict screening process going on - if you even have male Drill Abbots interacting with female progena in the first place (it is unclear whether the aforementioned gender separation applies only to the progena or to everyone). And after that, the Sisters get to live within the walls of their convent, which doesn't permit "outsiders" to deal with anyone but the Canoness and her most trusted Sisters Superior at any case.
Not saying it's impossible (perhaps something along the lines of an "indecent touch" by the hands of an aged and high-ranking Church official whilst talking to a somewhat inexperienced Sororitas bodyguard who doesn't understand his intentions - or maybe the Schola screening process isn't 100% flawless), just that it's extremely unlikely. You'd probably have a better chance at making up some smut about a lesbian BDSM relationship between two Sisters within the convent walls, and that's got to mean something.
I meant while they were mere cadets. Though what I have to go on there, is actually something I picked up from Bonanza. There a nun washed out, and the nun washing her out was so happy about it, she was pure of heart and all that, just didn't have the dogma in her to be a good nun. I can perfectly see budding Sororitas at the schola washing out in droves as I refuse to believe the second-best warriors of the Emperor doesn't have a high failure-rate. And they ain't killed, just moved to other sections, commissars, arbites and so on. As for the scum-priests, I was stabbing wildly, and I really don't like whatever I write analyzed when I'm stating stabbing wildly. Especially when I write more sensible pieces which is better analyzed, like what I mentioned about the food and Mother Theresa. That was more a last ditch attempt to make a quite scarred Sororita nothing else.
For the Saint, it seem like the vessel was a Sororita if memory serves.
I can't claim to know what happened with Vandire, and even so the little written seem to be more innuendo.
Unfortunately hate is a feeling of Khorne. For me the individual Sororitas are likely full of flaws. Ranging from the ones that takes a wee bit much of sugar on their cereal to more brutal offenders. Claiming trust and selflessness seems to be a very stupid way to adhere to things at WH40k. grimdark still springs to mind. Innocence proves nothing.
Having only skimmed through the Cain books (which have become more or less the focus of the debate), I'll say that, while entertaining, their characters think and behave XXth Century westerners IN SPACE.
Almost no consideration is given to the fact that these people live in a demential society of the distant future, under rules and beliefs that might strike us as utterly alien.
The true test of mettle for a science fiction writer is not taking characters from an alien universe and making them likable by pulling them closer to the reader's mindset. It's creating characters whose actions, morals and circumstances, while strange and perhaps discomforting for current standards, the reader can understand and even relate to.
Please feel free to correct anything I got wrong. I'm writing this on and off while I'm at work.
Maybe we should make a list of things that can actually be sourced and sort some of these issues out like that.
Imperial citizens (not Sororitas or Astartes) seem to behave based on the common culture of their homeworld or their own personal values. For instance in Eisenhorn we find that his pilot, Betancore, had a daughter (seemingly out of wedlock) and that Ravenor (while he was Eisenhorn's interrogator) was involved with another member of the Inquisitor's retinue: "his lover" according to Eisenhorn. This makes sense, since Dark Heresy makes it very clear that even the Imperial Cult varies from world to world. Since the teachings of the Cult Imperialis vary, we can imagine that the individual teachings on sexual activity will vary from sect to sect as well.
Sources: Eisenhorn Trilogy, Dark Heresy, Inquisitor's Handbook
According to Deathwatch, Astartes can become Chem Gelds, but don't start with that *ahem* feature. It's an important note since Deathwatch PCs are already experienced Marines who've been levied to the Deathwatch after doing something of note for an Astartes. That tells us that the Marines are probably physically capable of intercourse. The next question is "Do they have a desire for it?"
Aside from Space Wolves (and their progenitor chapters) most of the chapters seem to be more-or-less monastic in nature. Although the Ultramarines appear to keep a more visible presence in the worlds of Ultramar and we know this because the Codex states that families consider it a great honor for the sons to be selected and eventually become Astartes. They couldn't know that their son had survived to become a scout, let alone graduated from scout to full Battle-Brother without the Ultras telling them so, which means that someone is getting letters from their great-great uncle saying "Hey! Internship's over, they hired me! Love ya! PS The Emperor Protects!" Even with this closer tie, I haven't seen any indication that Ultras take time away from their duties to have relationships or even flings. Chances are good that Astartes are indoctrinated to simply go through their day denying themselves pleasure. I think it was the 4th edition Codex that gave an example of a typical day in the Fortress-Monastery (the second word is important there) where the marines would be woken after 4 hours of sleep, do bolter drills, pray, eat breakfast (or be called away mid meal for combat sims), more drills, lunch (same as breakfast) and so on. Couple this with surgeries and hypno-indoctrination (none of which are given any real detail) they undergo and you can bet that "distracting thoughts" are probably pushed far to the outside of their minds.
In short: Can they? Yes. Do they: Highly doubtful, as the mix of training and indoctrination should keep them in a near-constant state of being 'on the job' as it were.
Sources: Deathwatch, Codex: Space Marines (5th), Codex: Space Marines (4th)[I think]
Now, Space Wolves... Yeah, this one is a bit more tricky. We do know that the Space Wolves keep themselves apart from the rest of the population of Fenris, but they also love to drink and carouse. The definition of carouse is:
ca·rouse [kuh-rouz] -roused, -rous·ing, noun
verb (used without object)
1. to engage in a drunken revel: They caroused all night.
2. to drink deeply and frequently.
Origin:
1550–60; variant of garouse < German gar aus ( trinken ) (to drink) fully out, i.e. drain the cup; compare Middle French carous < dialectal German gar ūs
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/carouse
So they codex says that they like to drink... and drink. Not much help there. Given their gregarious nature and partying habits, I wouldn't be surprised if the Space Wolves did have lots of sex at their feasts. However, we still don't know what the hypno-indoctrination does to the Astartes. As I'm writing this I'm thinking that the point of it may be to re-route sexual desires into the need for combat. It would serve dual purposes by increasing their aggression and keeping them busy doing what the Emperor needed them to do: Conquer.
In short: Can Space Wolves have intercourse? Yes. Do they want to? Possibly, and if the hypno-indoctrinations used by the Astartes are used by the Wolves (we do know that they use 'deviant' methods of alteration) then the above theory may be in play. If they don't, then the likelihood of horny Space Wolves goes up greatly.
Sources: Codex: Space Wolves, Dictionary.com, my 'd up imagination.
Addendum: While we can be reasonably certain that Astartes are able to perform sexually, we have no information on fertility. With 10,000 years of history and no "bastard son of a space marine" lore around we can hypothesize that they're sterile, but we simply don't know.
I don't know enough about the Sororitas to claim anything, but looking at the comment here and the information about them in the Dark Heresy books, I would be inclined to believe that they're largely celibate.
What does that mean?
They're not supposed to, but some do. "Some" would be a number so small as to be virtually unique, and the book references to Sororitas with lovers could be viewed in that light. After all, it's something of a singular event which makes it interesting, unlike a book detailing how Joe Guardsman field strips his lasgun. We should also ask if the narrator is reliable. Having not read those books, is it possible that he's lying or using the Sister-in-question as a satire?
In short: Can they? Yes. Do they want to? No clue, since we'd need some fiction written from a Sister's PoV to know her actually thoughts, and even that is only representative of her, not all Sororitas. Do they? Highly doubtful.
Beaviz81 wrote:I can perfectly see budding Sororitas at the schola washing out in droves as I refuse to believe the second-best warriors of the Emperor doesn't have a high failure-rate. And they ain't killed, just moved to other sections, commissars, arbites and so on.
Technically they aren't Sororitas then, as the novitiate begins only after being transferred to the Order - but yeah, I would think this is likely.
Beaviz81 wrote:As for the scum-priests, I was stabbing wildly, and I really don't like whatever I write analyzed when I'm stating stabbing wildly.
Mhm? I think you did raise a valid point that does warrant some discussions, for the clergy is likely to contain a number of nutjobs abusing their authority for personal gain, especially since worship of the Emperor varies so strongly from region to region. In essence, such priests exist in the real world, so I don't see any reason why they shouldn't exist in 40k. They'd have more chances with non-Sororitas servants, however - especially indentured citizens doing penance for some sin, or the Frateris Militia. Sisters aren't the only females in the Church, after all.
Beaviz81 wrote:Especially when I write more sensible pieces which is better analyzed, like what I mentioned about the food and Mother Theresa.
Alright. Well, given that humility takes a strong place in the Sisters' background, I'd say that their food is pretty basic, and it seems like they do a lot of fasting (there's a lot of holy days in the Ecclesiarchy). As for Mother Teresa, are you referring to a specific incident or her mercyful nature? For I'd say that whilst it has little to do with the Orders Militant, the Hospitallers would be quite similar in their dedication to aid the sick and the poor. Likely combined with still not hesitating to take violent action against heresy when it is spotted, though.
If you want a novel recommendation, James Swallow's Sororitas books actually feature a Sister Militant (the no-nonsense Miriya) and a Sister Hospitaller (the clever but gentle Verity) as the two main protagonists, one being a strong contrast to the other. One could perhaps say Swallow "cheated" when using two different Orders to better differentiate between the personalities of his main characters, but the end result is still nice. "Hammer & Anvil", the newest book about them, introduces a new conflict between Miriya and a new superior who is so fixated on duty and following orders that there's a strong enmity between her and Miriya, the former thinking that the latter is something of a loose cannon and should have been executed long ago. Quite interesting.
Beaviz81 wrote:For the Saint, it seem like the vessel was a Sororita if memory serves.
Hum - well, someone with the book would have to clear this up, I've only read the Lexicanum article and it talks about a farm girl.
Beaviz81 wrote:I can't claim to know what happened with Vandire, and even so the little written seem to be more innuendo.
Regarding the Sisterhood, it's only hinted at, yeah - but for the Schola Progenium it outright describes what can be summed up as child prostitution and slavery. Which is why the Ecclesiarchy launched a major reform of the system, resulting in "today's" Schola Progenium being the direct opposite of the Vandirian era in terms of purity and chastity.
Beaviz81 wrote:For me the individual Sororitas are likely full of flaws.
Of course - for me, it is the flaws that make a character interesting much more than his or her strengths.
Beaviz81 wrote:Claiming trust and selflessness seems to be a very stupid way to adhere to things at WH40k.
Hmm, how so? Selflessness is the perfect protection against mental corruption (the worst thing that could happen is that you become a tool, but that alone won't erode your spirit), and trust plays an integral role in turning their society into a mini-cosmos in which everyone is aware of anyone elses' faults and flaws, in turn doing much to prevent small doubts that may arise from time to time turning into a crisis of faith, or perhaps worse, allow for a Sister to become tainted.
Agent_Tremolo wrote:Having only skimmed through the Cain books (which have become more or less the focus of the debate), I'll say that, while entertaining, their characters think and behave XXth Century westerners IN SPACE.
Almost no consideration is given to the fact that these people live in a demential society of the distant future, under rules and beliefs that might strike us as utterly alien.
That's the vibe I picked up from all the descriptions I have heard from the people talking about these books, aye.
Oh yeah the priest was just my desire to mate the two from Saving Grace and V for Vendetta, toss them into space.
Mother Theresa was known for a fierce temper, and had traits of aggression as well as temperance. I just thought of her more as a model to be honest.
That detail about Vandire was stomach-churning. Where do you have it from.
I guess at flaws like arrogance, pride, judgementalness can be found as flaws of Sororitas, also a desire to pray needlessly for friends I take. I sort of have developed two, one Hospitallier and one rather old Famulous. I can PM you the rough details.
Also I want a storyline where a girl found too pure of heart almost causes disaster.
Beaviz81 wrote:Mother Theresa was known for a fierce temper, and had traits of aggression as well as temperance. I just thought of her more as a model to be honest.
God no. The woman's an embarassment to Catholicism.
There is a character in 40k that uses her as a model - a cult leader from the 3rd edition rulebook who fetishises suffering like a two-bit Slaaneshite - but it's got nothing to do with what a good religious character is like.
Lynata wrote:Hum - well, someone with the book would have to clear this up, I've only read the Lexicanum article and it talks about a farm girl.
Saint Sabbat was not a sororitas. The only time a Sister appeared in the Gaunt books which I've read was as a vision given Gaunt.
Lynata wrote:Regarding the Sisterhood, it's only hinted at, yeah - but for the Schola Progenium it outright describes what can be summed up as child prostitution and slavery. Which is why the Ecclesiarchy launched a major reform of the system, resulting in "today's" Schola Progenium being the direct opposite of the Vandirian era in terms of purity and chastity.
Which is why the Sisters of Battle changed their names from the Brides of he Emperor to the Daughters of the Emperor.
Lynata wrote:Hmm, how so? Selflessness is the perfect protection against mental corruption
Selflessness and humility are the greatest protections against corruption indeed.
Lynata wrote:That's the vibe I picked up from all the descriptions I have heard from the people talking about these books, aye.
Thanks for clearing up the confusion regarding that reincarnation of Saint Sabbat.
Beaviz81 wrote:Oh yeah the priest was just my desire to mate the two from Saving Grace and V for Vendetta, toss them into space.
Heh, I remember that scene in the last one. I'm sure such clerics could exist in the setting, the Ecclesiarchy is pretty vast and the Schola during the Age of Apostasy shows that (just like in RL, I guess) the potential is there - even Thor could only change the rules, not how people may think, and the clergy is recruited from a much more diverse background than the Sisters whilst simultaneously not being held to their strict lifestyle.
Of course, the Sisters would probably act upon such blatant abuse of power if they ever hear of it. They're sort of the internal police, after all.
Beaviz81 wrote:Mother Theresa was known for a fierce temper, and had traits of aggression as well as temperance.
Oh? Guess I only heard an idealized version, might have to investigate further.
Beaviz81 wrote:That detail about Vandire was stomach-churning. Where do you have it from.
That's from the Sisters' 2E Codex:
The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain.
As I always say, lots of interesting fluff in the old books!
Beaviz81 wrote:I guess at flaws like arrogance, pride, judgementalness can be found as flaws of Sororitas, also a desire to pray needlessly for friends I take. I sort of have developed two, one Hospitallier and one rather old Famulous. I can PM you the rough details.
Aye - whilst arrogance and pride are discouraged and eliminated on a personal level by means of humiliation and mortification, I noticed a streak of the very same flaws on an organizational level. Basically, a Sister identifies herself so much with her Order or the Sisterhood as a whole that it becomes like a family to her, complete with seeing an affront against the Orders or her faith as an affront against herself.
"Chapter Master Seth denied me any tactical counsel whatsoever. After nearly a century in leading my Sisters to war, occasionally alongside Marine Chapters, this treatment came as no surprise. The fighting organisation and capabilities of any Sororitas Order is at least the equal to an Astartes Chapter and my Sisters are well versed in the covering of tactical errors by our alleged allies." - from a complaint by Canoness Carmina to General Kurov of the Armageddon Command Guard, GW's Armageddon 3 campaign
Notice the pride?
As for the Hospitaller and the Famulous ... characters, you mean? I'm always open to read other fans' stuff when it concerns an area of interest to myself, but are you looking for feedback or do you have specific questions?
AlexHolker wrote:There is a character in 40k that uses her as a model - a cult leader from the 3rd edition rulebook who fetishises suffering like a two-bit Slaaneshite - but it's got nothing to do with what a good religious character is like.
You mean the Adepta Sororitas Canoness in the rulebook's fluff blurb? I thought it was a pretty accurate portrayal. Few people seem to know it, but the Sisters have always been described that way, since the very days of 1E Rogue Trader ("penitent organization", "constant hardship and deprivation", ...). This is 40k. They aren't "normal people", which is why I'm so confused every time someone pulls that Pseudo-Sororitas from the Cain books as an example.
The Mother Superior took up a pen and carefully began to take notes. To my astonishment the silver pen appeared to be studded with short pins or nails which vexed the flesh of her fingers as she wrote. He fingers were quite raw where the skin had been worn away by the sharp points, yet she made no outward signs of discomfort as if this were the most natural thing in the world. Doubtlessly seeing my expression of horror, she stopped writing and carefully put the pen on the tabletop.
'Our belief,' she said slowly, 'is that there are two reasons only for a thing to be made. The first is that its manufacture inflicts suffering upon its maker which is reason enough to make it. The second is that the thing, once made, causes suffering to those who use it. It is our creed that the purpose of life is to suffer, for in this way we become one with the Emperor's eternal suffering. Have you not heard that those who suffer are blessed?'
'I have heard this and other things too,' I mumbled, embarrassed by what must have appeared a morbid fascination.
'Of course. Hair-shirts! Naked vigils on cold stone floors! The scourge of prayer and endless mortifications of the flesh!' She smiled as if amused by my timidity. I had heard of these things of course but could not answer her. 'This pen,' she said matter of factly, 'was made by Sister Chastity to remind us that words have their price, for there is no value in suffering for its own sake, is there!'
I'm sure you have also read the line "Prayer cleanses the soul, but pain cleanses the body" a couple times by now, it gets reprinted in a number of 40k books.
Lynata wrote:The problem is that Sisters, much like Space Marines or other heavily indoctrinated characters, are undoubtedly more difficult to describe and narrate than the average Joe, simply because their uniform upbringing and lifestyle specifically aims to press their personalities in a prefabricated mold. This has nothing to do with being two-dimensional; going against this mold only means that the end result will conflict with what the Adepta Sororitas represent as a whole and violate the spirit of the entire army. Proper representation of such a character requires a more delicate approach, highlighting the slight nuances that will still exist between them as a result out of unique personal experiences (unplanned incidents, potential acquaintances) and minor genetic predispositions (such as being more irritable due to the amount of adrenaline released in stress situations).
Sisters should be easier to write than Space Marines, becuase they aren't indoctirnated and changed the way Space Marines are. Unless there's some sources somewhere where they are pumped full of chemicals FOR THE EMPEROR! or something. They come from the same Schola that the Commissars, Storm Troopers, and other Imperial types come from. They can be fanatical in their own way, but writing sisters should not be any more difficult. Also, don't forget that Sisters can incorporate more than the Sisters of Battle. You have the famulous, hospitallers, etc. There have been some pretty badass hospitallers (Verity is one, there was one in the 'Tales from the Dark Millenium' short story who lead IG troops into battle, there was the one from Warriors of Ultramar...)
What the Sisters have in advantage vs Space Marines is that they have a scope for being more than 'just warriors' - they have the religious angle too, but they have representations in every area and branch of society through their various orders, and that gives them scope and complexity in interacting with the Imperium, as well as the personal interactions with their own members. And the Imperial creed is a very open ended (even contradictory) one, unlike the more uniform Chapter Cults of the Astartes - you can get lots of different 'sects' or schisms that might crop up within the Creed - why should the Sisters be any less vulnerable to that?
Really its the whole 'nuns iwth guns' angle that bugs me, because it over-simplifies them into being the pawns of the Effing Priests, who are on the whole useless. Whereas the Sisters, at least by traditional interpretations, are actually the inheritors of Sebastion Thor's legacy. They're the ones he entrusted to keep the churhc on course and pure, and thats also why they are part of the inquistiion.
What Mitchell did was basically NOT the above but taking a hammer to the job and trying to bash "individuality" into the character by the bluntest way possible. Letting the character do stuff that so fundamentally conflicts with the entire belief system may set her apart for sure, but it also sets her apart from the traits that identify a Sororitas character in the first place.
I disagree. What makes Aescarion and Miriya (and Verity) exceptional as characters is that they basically do, in their own ways, break the Sisters of Battle stereotypes. When confronted with a traitor Marine, Aescarion does not scream FOR THE EMPEROR! PURGE AND BURN! No. She uses words and faith as her weapon, and manages to not only recover a soul for the Emperor, but manages to Eff up Nurgle in the process - how many of the more fanatical sisters would have considered that, or approved? Miriya breaks stereotype in the sense that she is not a mindlessly obedient robot or tool. She has her own views, her own take on faith, and she also has the courage to carry out her convictions no matter the cost (especially to her.) even if it means defying authority. She even accepts demotion as a consequence, and yet she still remains herself. On top of that in Hammer and Anvil we saw more of that 'convert and reason' type faith rather than 'PURGE THE SLIGHTLY IMPURE' with Decima, which is also good. I don't share the same dislike you evidently do for Mitchell's character because a.) I see it as breaking the stereotype in a different and interesting way and b.) as Melissa points out, the Cain novels are written with an obvious Cain-centric bias, and you have to take some (most?) of his perceptions with a grain of salt. Even Amberley points this out on more than one occasion in all the novels. So the Sister cain remembers may not be 100% the way he recalls or depicts her, but I suspect that at the core she is enough like that to make her (to me) as interesting as Aescarion.
Huh, did Aescarion pop up in more than just the short story "Daemonblood"? *blinks*
Aescarion makes an appearance in 'Bleeding Chalice' serving alongside an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor. Bleeding Chalice was one of the better Soul Drinkers novels. Aescarion unfortunately did not turn or kill Sarpedon, but I don't hold that against her.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote:Saint Sabbat was not a sororitas. The only time a Sister appeared in the Gaunt books which I've read was as a vision given Gaunt.
She may or may not have been a Sister. Gaunt only saw her as such because that's the only point of reference he has and it could be he simply interpreted the vision he got that way. The warp is funny that way.
Anyhow, the Sabbat World Crusade guidebook had a little blurb abou tthe sisters I remember:
Page 8
Spoiler:
It is the archived mention of the sisters militant that has caused some scholars to question the received wisdom of Sabbat's origins. The Saint's Crusade took place almost a thousand years before the Age of Apostasy and the rise of the Adeptus Sororitas, but many have conjectured that, far from being a humble shepherd girl, she was a devotee of the Daughters of the Emperor who had somehow travelled across half the galaxy from San Leor to lead the Crusade. Were the Daughters of the Emperoror active outside San Leor prior ot the time of Vandire?
Certainly, relic evidence suggests her command of sisters militant had some apparent connection with the Order of Our Martyred Lady, and it is even possible they could have formed the basis of that order. however, the true nature of the connection, if any, remains firmly in the realm of Imperial myth.
Mind you given that the warp is weird enough to allow time travel crud to occur, its not impossible that 'sister's showed up at some point in some way. Will of the Emperor and all that. Might even make a fascinating story for Abnett to write.
Relationships are pretty normal for normal people in 40K. The Imperial Cult doesn't place a taboo on sex because it was invented after birth control unlike most irl religons.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Sisters should be easier to write than Space Marines, becuase they aren't indoctirnated and changed the way Space Marines are. Unless there's some sources somewhere where they are pumped full of chemicals FOR THE EMPEROR! or something.
I don't quite agree there. Space Marines at least had a childhood once, Sisters are literally raised in the Schola Progenium from being a small toddler and then subjected to an extensive regime of religious indoctrination. Space Marines have it a lot easier even if you just consider that you have numerous Chapters which all have a unique history and personality type. Put a Space Wolf next to a Black Templar and tell me it's going to be hard to describe the differences between them.
Connor MacLeod wrote:They come from the same Schola that the Commissars, Storm Troopers, and other Imperial types come from.
The Schola seems to have different classes, so that the amount of indoctrination may vary. Mind you, I am of the opinion that Commissars and Storm Troopers are just as blinded by zeal (well, maybe not as much, but close). That's what makes Commissars so effective at controlling the troops, and Storm Troopers so efficient at doing their job. A Commissar in particular is like a male Battle Sister permanently attached to a unit of common soldiers, leading by example and making sure none of them jumps out of line. Which is another reason why I think Cain has no place in the setting - at least following the basics and guidelines established by the studio.
Connor MacLeod wrote:And the Imperial creed is a very open ended (even contradictory) one, unlike the more uniform Chapter Cults of the Astartes - you can get lots of different 'sects' or schisms that might crop up within the Creed - why should the Sisters be any less vulnerable to that?
Because GW says so.
This is from the Liber Sororitas as printed in White Dwarf:
"As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra, or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.
It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of its doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.
Despite the lack of significant divergences between the Orders Militant in terms of organisation and combat doctrine, there is a degree of variance to be found within the teachings of the founders of the Orders, which tends to reflect the outlook of each Founding Saint. For example, the Sisters of the Order of Our Martyred Lady can be said to reflect the vengeful nature of their patron, Saint Katherine, while the Sisters of the Order the Bloody Rose share the brooding, quick to anger nature of Saint Mina."
Their teachings are furthermore unified across the entire Schola Progenium system, and the so-called "Rule of Sororitas" is a set of tomes detailing the dogmae of the Sororitas, kept sacrosanct by the Sisterhood as a whole and applying to all its Orders. Aside from the aforementioned slight idolization of its founding Saint, there isn't much room in terms of deviation from uniform behavorial patterns originating in the San Leor temple - certainly not enough to allow individual Sisters to get laid.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Really its the whole 'nuns iwth guns' angle that bugs me, because it over-simplifies them into being the pawns of the Effing Priests, who are on the whole useless.
I think you're underestimating the clergy. There's a whole lot of manipulative politicians and dirty egoists amongst them, but the Imperial Cult is still a warrior church, and together with the PDF, the Ecclesiarchy's Preachers and Confessors are often the very first defence any Imperial world has against alien invaders, mutant uprisings or heretical cults popping up, way before any Space Marine Chapter or Imperial Guard regiment can arrive to render assistance. Many of these priests are permanently attached to Imperial Guard regiments, or brave the hostile frontiers of alien space on the lookout for lost human colonies with nothing but a shotgun and a prayer book in their hands.
Cut 'em some slack.
Connor MacLeod wrote:When confronted with a traitor Marine, Aescarion does not scream FOR THE EMPEROR! PURGE AND BURN! No. She uses words and faith as her weapon, and manages to not only recover a soul for the Emperor, but manages to Eff up Nurgle in the process - how many of the more fanatical sisters would have considered that, or approved?
I think an important thing to remember is that Aescarion was offended by witnessing the fall of this Space Marine first-hand, then turning it into a personal quest to bring him to justice. Given that even other Sisters in the same story disapproved of this, it's not a difference in writer's opinion and thus remains perfectly compatible to studio material.
Connor MacLeod wrote:breaking the stereotype in a different and interesting way
I definitively wouldn't use the term "interesting" for what amounts to a Veteran Sister Superior, whose purpose it is to school and teach the next generation of young Sororitas, being turned from a virtuous example of her faith into a friendly neighborhood girl fraternizing with a bunch of men out of boredom, drinking alcohol and playing games for fun.
If you think so, that's fine, just be aware that this goes strongly against all that Games Workshop has ever written about how the Sisters tick.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Aescarion makes an appearance in 'Bleeding Chalice' serving alongside an Ordo Hereticus inquisitor. Bleeding Chalice was one of the better Soul Drinkers novels. Aescarion unfortunately did not turn or kill Sarpedon, but I don't hold that against her.
Ah, I feel almost tempted to read that now. Was the Inquisitor the same guy who "organized" Aescarion's trip to confront Castus, perchance? Would make sense if he recruited her afterwards.
Connor MacLeod wrote:Anyhow, the Sabbat World Crusade guidebook had a little blurb abou tthe sisters I remember:
Spoiler:
It is the archived mention of the sisters militant that has caused some scholars to question the received wisdom of Sabbat's origins. The Saint's Crusade took place almost a thousand years before the Age of Apostasy and the rise of the Adeptus Sororitas, but many have conjectured that, far from being a humble shepherd girl, she was a devotee of the Daughters of the Emperor who had somehow travelled across half the galaxy from San Leor to lead the Crusade. Were the Daughters of the Emperoror active outside San Leor prior ot the time of Vandire?
Certainly, relic evidence suggests her command of sisters militant had some apparent connection with the Order of Our Martyred Lady, and it is even possible they could have formed the basis of that order. however, the true nature of the connection, if any, remains firmly in the realm of Imperial myth.
Mind you given that the warp is weird enough to allow time travel crud to occur, its not impossible that 'sister's showed up at some point in some way. Will of the Emperor and all that. Might even make a fascinating story for Abnett to write.
Of course we have to remember that this is about the original Saint Sabbat and not the girl actually encountered by Gaunt, if I understand the synopsis correctly.
Beaviz81 wrote:The Jackalwolf. He rocks, twelve women in one night before he got to be a Space Wolf. Wait a minute, now shouldn't the police show up?
Yeah, that was the guy I was thinking about. Wait... how does he get twelve women if Marines are inducted before puberty? That would mean.... ew. Yeah. Call the cops.
I think that in codex: SW, Lukas the Trickster is being infamous for "sharing a dozen beds in one night" or something like that. Might have been before he became SW though.
I think you're also attempting to apply real-world legalities on a planet where the average person dies by the age of 40, generally by being eaten by a giant fish or something.
Life on Fenris is generally short, brutal, and exceedingly unpleasant, except for the epic boozing and wenching... which is likely to get you killed when the volcanoes start erupting and the islands start sinking and the waves start crashing down and all the similarly catastrophic events that regularly plague Fenris.
Lynata that was some extremely twisted reading, but luckily it's 12 or older at least, even though that's also pretty gut-wrenching.
As for the priest, oddly enough I had quite another story for him than him being at a schola.
Mother Teresa is rumored to have an anger that scared even the pope. And he faced down the man trying to kill him, and was scared by a small nun. Well if the histories I have heard on TV is to be believed. If not someone is making a joke I'm totally not getting.
Psienesis wrote:I think you're also attempting to apply real-world legalities on a planet where the average person dies by the age of 40, generally by being eaten by a giant fish or something.
And even on our real world, the so-called Age of Consent differs wildly depending on the country in question. It's all a question of what any given population is being told about what is supposed to define "normalcy".
Beaviz81 wrote:Lynata that was some extremely twisted reading, but luckily it's 12 or older at least, even though that's also pretty gut-wrenching.
12 years? You mean when they finish the Schola?
For some reason I always thought they'd finish at around 14-18, depending on their class, but that's just because I'm assuming they're supposed to be "ready for duty" upon being transferred.
When thinking about the Schola Progenium, I tend to compare them to Nazi-Germany's Napola system, just starting way earlier and with lots of prayer.
Seen a movie on this subject once, too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBcPXnLR6Oc
Beaviz81 wrote:As for the priest, oddly enough I had quite another story for him than him being at a schola.
They enter the schola at 12 years of age. I sort of figured the graduation age to be 21, as that kind of make sense (old age of casting vote). I think 14 year olds should not be allowed even to be cadet-commissars in regiments for example or budding cops. Go for 21 Lynata
As for the priest, not a very pleasant story. The victim eventually commits suicide. The priest is kicked to death by Penal Troopers.
Beaviz81 wrote:They enter the schola at 12 years of age.
Huh, where have you read that?
If we go by GW Codex fluff, at least the Sisters of Battle are raised in the Schola from earliest age onward - I'm not sure why it should be different for other orphans. Note that "orphan" would thus probably mean: Parents are working for the Imperium in a capacity that has them unable to care for the child, which means it gets orphaned at birth even though the parents are still alive. Though I guess it is possible that older orphans may occasionally be taken in.
Ah. Well ... novel authors and their interpretations.
It doesn't actually contradict anything, though - from the GW fluff, we only know that the Sisters of Battle are raised in the Schola from birth.
I took this as exemplary for all progena, but of course that's not the only possible conclusion one could achieve!
I have no compulsions of seeing nobles bribing their kids into a schola for a hope of military glory, also kids with very alive parents can probably be recommended in if they show exceptional skills with something, lets say a fire-arm f.ex.
As a side-note you never answered me about the nun, so I assume you disliked the whole construct? It is a very rough draft.
Gaunt goes to the Scholam at 12 because his father, also a Commissar, was killed in action...
Spoiler:
Because of the cowardice of his uncle, whom Gaunt, after graduating from the Commissariat training scholam, goes and duels, killing the man but earning a chainsword slash across his belly for his troubles.
No it was actually a colonel, his "uncle" Decuius recommended him in. Oktar was his mentor, he died slowly as the orks poisoned him and promoted Gaunt as he was dying. The duel happened later, and then Decius was killed.
Beaviz81 wrote:As a side-note you never answered me about the nun, so I assume you disliked the whole construct? It is a very rough draft.
No, no - just didn't get around reading it yet. I took a short glance and noticed it's a somewhat longer text, so I wanted to wait until I have some more time and can concentrate on it. Unfortunately, yesterday's work then left me too exhausted to engage in anything that requires mental attentiveness.
I was slightly off in my timing, in that it was after his promotion to Commissar wherein he duels his uncle, not immediately after leaving the Scholam.
I was slightly off in my timing, in that it was after his promotion to Commissar wherein he duels his uncle, not immediately after leaving the Scholam.
You was all off. The dad is the colonel, Decius is the "uncle", Oktar is the other commissar. Then you have the years 20 years earlier (gets selected by Oktar), 18 years ealier (Oktar dies and promotes Gaunt as he dies), 16 years earlier (Gaunt kills Decius in a duel making an impossible move while his intestines are dangling from his belly).
Sorry I came off a tad harsh, wasn't my intention. My parents are as usual burring me over the phone.
Wot's dis about da boyz using poison ta zog da 'umies? Dat's izn't orky! WAAAAAGH!!!
That's even brought up in the novel, as it was completely out-of-character for the Orks, who prefer the straight-on attack, to use poison to kill Imperial forces. Regardless, it was quite effective.
Well, from a Ciaphas Cain novel (can't remember which one(GOD I'm using that as a source a lot lately, coincidence mutch?)), some dude was doing the nasty with a ranked SoB.
Yeah, which is... not well-received by a number of people, mainly because it flies in the face of pre-established SOB lore. It's been posited that the Cain novels might be written as a sort of in-universe parody.
I wouldn't have reacted much personally had they been married, but it's the casual nature of the relationship that rankles me. I can see SOBs smiling and laughing, but that should likely be when they are burning or torturing heretics and such, not when they get drunk or cracking jokes which ain't about buring or torturing heretics.
Beaviz81 wrote:I wouldn't have reacted much personally had they been married, but it's the casual nature of the relationship that rankles me. I can see SOBs smiling and laughing, but that should likely be when they are burning or torturing heretics and such, not when they get drunk or cracking jokes which ain't about buring or torturing heretics.
See, I don't get that. If they were like that, SoB would have absolutely no personality and would lose every angle of interest. They would just turn into another one dimensional army which is boring as feth.
Beaviz81 wrote:I wouldn't have reacted much personally had they been married, but it's the casual nature of the relationship that rankles me. I can see SOBs smiling and laughing, but that should likely be when they are burning or torturing heretics and such, not when they get drunk or cracking jokes which ain't about buring or torturing heretics.
See, I don't get that. If they were like that, SoB would have absolutely no personality and would lose every angle of interest. They would just turn into another one dimensional army which is boring as feth.
And only necrons can do that we-.... Damn it.
Well they are a penitent organization. I actually now agree with Lynata and Melissia. Sandy Mitchell brought along a sledgehammer to work, and bludgedoned the Sororita into place. I can see them marry, but that would be rare. For me they now are more into sacrifice and self-denial. I don't buy the faste-things, due to the religious fact that soldiers are allowed reprieve from fasting. They will lay more at cold stone-floors, wear hair-shirts and do much praying in order to prove their penitence. If you want personality then think humility in the Emperor's name, they will often be a tad arrogant, in the way that they think they have to sacrifice themselves for their more sinful buddies and they will always interpretate any religious dogma in the most dogmatic way possible.
Oh,the fasting is more along the lines of during times when they are not in battle. In battle I very much imagine them having very healthy rations to ensure that they ahve the energy for war.
For me the Sisters of Battle would likely eat very good food, or at least very nutricious and healthy food and just forget all about the fasting-thingy all together. Military arm of the Ecclericialy comes to mind. They wouldn't be very efficient if they faste, and they are stronger than normal humans so their food must be top-rate when it comes to being healthy.
Melissia wrote:Oh,the fasting is more along the lines of during times when they are not in battle.
That's still not really practical - even when not in battle, I'd expect them to be training and exercising regularly. A better approach would be for them to fast by eating bland food, not less food.
They're not really the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy... at least, not in name. De facto, yes... sort of. They're assigned all sorts of tasks that require a military-like presence, but they are not the Ecclesiarchy's military. The Decree Passive prevents the Ecclesiarchy from maintaining a militant arm. Yes, it says "men under arms" and, yes, the Sister of Battle are not men... but the Inquisition is not the sort of organization to follow the letter of the law when its spirit is being violated, especially when it comes down to other organizations in the Imperium that might have pissed the Inquisition off a time or two in the last ten thousand years.
The Inquisition can hold a grudge for a very, very long time.
That said... only one of the Orders Major is a militant organization. The rest are doctors, librarians or social matchmakers. All of these latter three, especially, may undergo long periods of fasting to maintain discipline and purity. That is, after all, one of the religious functions of fasting, a sacrifice made in the cause of purity. I can, especially, see the Sisters of the Ordo Famulous taking a period of fasting after having to attend some bacchanalian feast held by/for the noble family they're attached to.
Melissia wrote:Oh,the fasting is more along the lines of during times when they are not in battle.
That's still not really practical - even when not in battle, I'd expect them to be training and exercising regularly. A better approach would be for them to fast by eating bland food, not less food.
Keep in mind that for Sisters, prayer IS training. It is through the meticulous combination of prayer and training that they are able to do things which are considered miraculous.
Psienesis wrote:They're not really the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy
They are the chamber militant of the Ecclesiarchy in name.
Trondheim wrote:I recomend you read the IG book Redemtion Corps. Sex is definitly not unheard of in the grim future of 40k.
No.
Redemption corps is a piece of gak, almost as bad as Goto's work.
I think they fill that role as the de facto task they're assigned. Then again, they've "changed hands" a couple of times now, between Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy... but in being the de facto military of the Ecclesiarchy (because, really, who else are they going to get? What passes for a Frateris Militia often can't get off the ground) it allows them to undertake their own Crusade actions/military actions, without the Ecclesiarchy having to actively sign its name to the declaration, just, sort of "send the faithful masses to the valiant Sisterhood in support of their purge of the heretical filth from Planet Overthere" without making it *obvious* that they're getting around the Decree Passive.
Or, alternately (and probably far more likely) GW simply forgot that bit about the Decree Passive and likes to think that the Ecclesiarchy is "getting one over" on the Inquisition by having a bunch of nuns with guns be their standing army, and so handwaves the inevitable Inquisitorial "Hey! Waitafethinminute! Thems an Ecclesiarchal army! How'd it get founded!?""
Psienesis wrote:it allows them to undertake their own Crusade actions/military actions, without the Ecclesiarchy having to actively sign its name to the declaration, just, sort of "send the faithful masses to the valiant Sisterhood in support of their purge of the heretical filth from Planet Overthere" without making it *obvious* that they're getting around the Decree Passive.
They can't wage a Crusade on their own - they need the Navy to provide transport, just like the Guard.
Or, alternately (and probably far more likely) GW simply forgot that bit about the Decree Passive and likes to think that the Ecclesiarchy is "getting one over" on the Inquisition by having a bunch of nuns with guns be their standing army, and so handwaves the inevitable Inquisitorial "Hey! Waitafethinminute! Thems an Ecclesiarchal army! How'd it get founded!?""
They're not getting one over the Inquisition: Sebastian Thor openly argued his case to the exact same people that enacted the Decree Passive, and convinced them that the Sisters of Battle should be an exception.
No loophole is being exploited, except to let the Convocation save face by pretending it was their intention in the first place.
They can't wage a Crusade on their own - they need the Navy to provide transport, just like the Guard.
This actually varies, depending on who you're reading. There have been, apparently, several military actions undertaken by combinations of Sisters and Frateris Militia forces, transported by Rogue Trader dynasties with Ecclesiarchal ties... or simply a very profound faith.
Psienesis wrote:Then again, they've "changed hands" a couple of times now, between Ordo Hereticus and the Ecclesiarchy...
No, they really didn't - they have always been the Ecclesiarchy's military wing. It's just that during 3rd and 4th edition, they were also the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, yet without a change of their ties to the Ecclesiarchy. The 3E Codex design notes published in WD even stated that the authors took great care not to contradict anything previously published on the Sororitas, right up to the ancient days of 1st edition Rogue Trader.
As AlexHolker mentioned, the Sisters being an exception from the Decree Passive was deliberately enforced by Sebastian Thor as one of his demands as he accepted the post of Ecclesiarch. The Inquisition doesn't have a problem with that as the Sisters also act as the Ecclesiarchy's internal police, as well as being much too few in numbers to actually pose any threat on a larger scale. Any doubts were laid to rest with the Convocation of Nephilim establishing the cooperation between the Sisterhood and the Ordo Hereticus, though I suppose that one doesn't exist anymore, or at least its terms have been altered.
AlexHolker wrote:They can't wage a Crusade on their own - they need the Navy to provide transport, just like the Guard.
Actually ...
"The personnel and fleets of each fortress are commanded by a Prioress under direct supervision of the Abbess on Earth."
&
"Each Convent has its own fleets and runs its own affairs in much the same way as the Space Marine Chapters."
Now, this is pretty old fluff (1st and 2nd edition respectively), but interestingly it has never been retconned in any of GW's own books. Take note that the only paragraph in the C:WH talking about how "the armies and the fleets of the Ecclesiarchy were disbanded" goes on to mention the Sisters as an exception.
And it makes sense: how could they be expected to efficiently perform as the Ecclesiarchy's internal affairs bureau when the Ecclesiarchy would be the one controlling their transportation? Not to mention the extreme delay in response time. The Major Orders operate all across Imperial space; given their "small" size, this kind of activity warrants the fastest way to travel available.
On the other hand I don't buy that "1.000 Sisters conquering 100 planets on their own", though, and I believe the Codex never actually stated they did it alone - the book merely omitted a participation of any auxiliaries, which I think did exist in the form of loads of militia, most of whom recruited from the very same planets assaulted by the Sisters. Basically a public uprising triggered by the invasion; wasn't it a campaign against some heretical tyrant? Personal interpretation, though. Let's just say I'm not a big fan of the whole "a few hundred warriors conquer an entire world" schtick that gets thrown around from time to time.
In terms of fleets, it has also been mentioned that the Adeptus Arbites have their own ships as well, as do the Inquisition and the Astartes. Often it sounds like a lot of people think the Navy has a monopoly on space travel when the Guard is actually the only organization amongst all Imperial Adepta "handicapped" by not being allowed to have its own vessels. Basically, it's all about balance. The Navy is the one organization with undeniable superiority on space, and the Guard is the one organization with undeniable supeirority on the ground. Both have to be kept apart. As no single other Imperial Adeptus can rival the Navy or the Guard in their own areas, it's fine for them to have both ships and ground forces.
( of course, before that I didn't know that pension is possible for them at all ). Anyway...any Sister caught in this "unholy deed" would be promoted to Repentia.
. From Cain it was just that in general he regarded them as too fanatical to have relationships, and they also are damn good in rugby, because they thought the goal of the game was to hospitalize the opposition.
They'd probably go so far as to consider playing WoW to be heresy. I'm basing this on their need for manpower and ridiculous casualties.
)... Though I may be misremembering that.
'd up imagination.
Wot's dis about da boyz using poison ta zog da 'umies? Dat's izn't orky! WAAAAAGH!!!