This is something I have always wondered. Since I first started the game I have always wanted to field a Ultramarine army, but due to peoples personal opinion and my pathetic need to be accepted by everyone I never touched them. Now I'm finally over that I'm going forward to build a Ultramarine army.
So now to my question... Why do people hate them so?
By ridiculing and looking down on a hobby aspect virtually identical to their own, those deep-down uncomfortable with their hobby, too immature to face up to it and admit it to their peers and friends, can feel "more mature" about themselves and their time in the hobby by the self-delusion of collecting the "superior" plastic toys and reading the "superior" plastic-toy-background-fluff.
Zweischneid wrote:They call it the Nerd Hierarchy in other places.
By ridiculing and looking down on a hobby aspect virtually identical to their own, those deep-down uncomfortable with their hobby, too immature to face up to it and admit it to their peers and friends, can feel "more mature" about themselves and their time in the hobby by the self-delusion of collecting the "superior" plastic toys and reading the "superior" plastic-toy-background-fluff.
Pretty much this.
People want to say their guys are cooler, even though theyre all pretty similar (at least to the outside eye). I play ultramarines myself, and when i walked into my FLGS i caught some flak for it. People told me to play space wolves because theyre 'cooler' or 'better'.
All in all just do what you want, we're all their painting minis and we're all nerds. But like Zwei said, you can't all be equal, because then people wouldn't be able to rip on you for being lamer than them.
We should all be embracing anybody who wants to get into the hobby, not rippin on anybody. The bigger it gets-> the more people play-> the more it's in the spotlight-> the more new stuff we get-> and then the more we can enjoy our hobby.
i think mainly it has to do with GW selecting the ultrasmurfs as the poster boy for the hobby. thus, any new players tend to go for the marines, (as these often star in demo games and painting lessons) simply because of the above, the fact they are "easy" to build, painting is also a touch simpler, and they are the "good guys" of the galaxy. the blue ones are also on the box covers, and so on, so obviously newer players who dont really have an idea for their own chapter will paint them blue. that and blue is a pretty easy color to paint. white,red,yellow etc all require multiple thin layers and are more complex to do right, then a 1 coat done blue.
this leads to a horde of 12-15 yr olds playing the ultra marines, and obviously they are less superioir in gaming then you - who has IG/GK/DE/eldar/chaos etc.... so they get looked down on.
a local saying here: "if you see a 13 yr old boy in a gaming store he's either playing yugioh or ultramarines"
i thnk it applies worldwide and no doubt is used on many other locations - because its true.
Hello, your spiritual liege would like to welcome you to the illustrious and invincible Ultramarines! Where you always win in the fluff and everyone hate-er I mean loves you. Don't mind them, they're just upset that Rowboat Girlyman will never be their spiritual liege, and therefore, they will never be Ultramarines! And that will always be their shame!
All joking aside, Ultramarines kind of represent the overdone glory boys of the Space Marines, and when most people consider all the Space Marines to be overdone glory boys by default, it results in them getting a lot of hate. I also believe it had something to do with the current space marine codex, where Matt Ward (your spiritual liege, make sure to put pictures of him on all your banners so you can make lots of friends! ) basically said that the Ultramarines were the greatest chapter of all time, and that all other chapters wished they were as good as the Ultramarines. I think he also said something along the lines that all chapters that aren't Space Wolves, Templars, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels, follow the Codex Astartes (Written by Roboutte Guillman or something like that, in game spiritual liege) to the letter in an attempt to mirror the perfection of the Ultramarines. However, they're doomed to fail, for they will never be Ultramarines...
I've heard that the older fluff for them was actually pretty cool, where the idea that the Codex Astartes was their greatest strength as well as their greatest weakness was explored. Yes, the Codex Astartes made them extremely prepared for any normal foe, but they were left helpless fighting an unknown enemy or situation. I think they lost their entire 1st company when their home planet was assaulted by the Tyranids specifically because they refused to break the teaching of the codex. Then when a captain suggested adding an amendment that included techniques for fighting the bugs, he was reprimanded for daring to suggest the codex was flawed! If GW played this up more I would actually really like this chapter, as then it would have a lot more depth to it than most of the other ones, and could lead to some really awesome fluff. However, most of today's fluff goes along the lines of "Ultramarines get sent to deal with a threat that's killed about 3 billion guardsmen with ease. Ultramarines sends 10 marines. They kill the entire enemy invasion without suffering a scratch. All hail our spiritual liege. The End." And thats why you get all the hate. However, if you do a cool job with your army, and don't beat people over the head with your fluff that basically says you've beaten the entire galaxy 10 times over, I dont think you'll have any problems. It's your army, you could paint them pink and put hello kitty heads on them for all I care. You're playing a game with plastic army men, have fun with it!
Also, they were Matt Ward's favored child for a while, and anything that has come into contact with Matt Ward tends to receive undying hate from the 40k community.
I agree with you AtariAssasin let people play what they want to play. Any time I meet someone who's interested in getting into the hobby I always tell them to go with the army you find most appealing. If you enjoy the way they look and the back story then you will dedicate to the army.
I just dislike what Ward did to them with saying that all space marines aspire to be like them and that Marneus Calgar is the spiritual liege of all space marines. Disregard that and I think I'm pretty cool with them.
I see a lot of the hate comes down to the fluff. Maybe I'm wrong here I'm not as up on the fluff as many others, but weren't the Ultramaries the chapter who took on the soul responsibility of defending the Imperium while the other Chapters rebuilt them selves after the Horus Heresy?
DarkWind wrote:I see a lot of the hate comes down to the fluff. Maybe I'm wrong here I'm not as up on the fluff as many others, but weren't the Ultramaries the chapter who took on the soul responsibility of defending the Imperium while the other Chapters rebuilt them selves after the Horus Heresy?
That was because during most of the Horus Heresy they were stuck on the other side of the Galaxy and contributed about as much to the defense of Terra as the Squats did.
They didn't lose any marines so they didn't have to rebuild! It's a perfect plan!
DarkWind wrote:I see a lot of the hate comes down to the fluff. Maybe I'm wrong here I'm not as up on the fluff as many others, but weren't the Ultramaries the chapter who took on the soul responsibility of defending the Imperium while the other Chapters rebuilt them selves after the Horus Heresy?
DarkWind wrote:I see a lot of the hate comes down to the fluff. Maybe I'm wrong here I'm not as up on the fluff as many others, but weren't the Ultramaries the chapter who took on the soul responsibility of defending the Imperium while the other Chapters rebuilt them selves after the Horus Heresy?
Seeing they were the one chapter conveniently duped and not heavily involved in the heresy... Boy am I glad the Ultramarines were intact and unscathed by the imperium-wide apocalypse...
Automatically Appended Next Post: My problem is the Matt Ward-ism of "everyone hopes to be an Ultramarine" and then all the fluff leaves me with the impression that.
1) They are idiots who seem to be easily fooled.
2) They are megalomaniacs "Do it our way or else..."
If you have seen the pseudo commercials from Starship Trooper the movie, picture an Ultra-smurf instead of a light infantryman. There is the propaganda "Everyone hopes to be an Ultramarine" and then there is the fact - Every kind of marine is a beast in combat but the Ultras are just one flavor of pain.
Ascalam wrote:Or sitting on their own pocket empire, waiting to see who won...
Guilliman was a coward, but a smart con man
He was a politician and shrewd business man; why put all your eggs in the one basket when you can appear to be doing an important service and be conserving your strength to side with the victors: smart move.
Unfortuneatley the name Matt Ward seems to instantly be targeted, it's just because he can't write fluff for feth
MrMoustaffa wrote:Hello, your spiritual liege would like to welcome you to the illustrious and invincible Ultramarines! Where you always win in the fluff and everyone hate-er I mean loves you. Don't mind them, they're just upset that Rowboat Girlyman will never be their spiritual liege, and therefore, they will never be Ultramarines! And that will always be their shame!
I demand that this be the first passage of the new C:SM codex.
Too bad that nid invasion didnt wipe them out.....
Ultramarines are hated because they are called ULTRA meaning even better than normal.... not to mention they are so oversaturated with fluff and imagery that most people shy away from the smurfs because they are too GW.
Its bad enough that new players flock to play marines, its even worse they play Ultramarines =]
to me they are boring. i dont like the blue. black temps are also boring. grey knights - boring, too much metallic.
the goodytwoshoes high and mighty personality of these chapters adds to my boredom factor.
Ultramarines are to perfect. They are portrayed as the perfect chapter without faults. And that almost all Ultramarines are boring as feth. Just look at Captain Titus and Uriel. Boring souless mommies boys.
MrMoustaffa wrote:Hello, your spiritual liege would like to welcome you to the illustrious and invincible Ultramarines! Where you always win in the fluff and everyone hate-er I mean loves you. Don't mind them, they're just upset that Rowboat Girlyman will never be their spiritual liege, and therefore, they will never be Ultramarines! And that will always be their shame!
All joking aside, Ultramarines kind of represent the overdone glory boys of the Space Marines, and when most people consider all the Space Marines to be overdone glory boys by default, it results in them getting a lot of hate. I also believe it had something to do with the current space marine codex, where Matt Ward (your spiritual liege, make sure to put pictures of him on all your banners so you can make lots of friends! ) basically said that the Ultramarines were the greatest chapter of all time, and that all other chapters wished they were as good as the Ultramarines. I think he also said something along the lines that all chapters that aren't Space Wolves, Templars, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels, follow the Codex Astartes (Written by Roboutte Guillman or something like that, in game spiritual liege) to the letter in an attempt to mirror the perfection of the Ultramarines. However, they're doomed to fail, for they will never be Ultramarines...
I've heard that the older fluff for them was actually pretty cool, where the idea that the Codex Astartes was their greatest strength as well as their greatest weakness was explored. Yes, the Codex Astartes made them extremely prepared for any normal foe, but they were left helpless fighting an unknown enemy or situation. I think they lost their entire 1st company when their home planet was assaulted by the Tyranids specifically because they refused to break the teaching of the codex. Then when a captain suggested adding an amendment that included techniques for fighting the bugs, he was reprimanded for daring to suggest the codex was flawed! If GW played this up more I would actually really like this chapter, as then it would have a lot more depth to it than most of the other ones, and could lead to some really awesome fluff. However, most of today's fluff goes along the lines of "Ultramarines get sent to deal with a threat that's killed about 3 billion guardsmen with ease. Ultramarines sends 10 marines. They kill the entire enemy invasion without suffering a scratch. All hail our spiritual liege. The End." And thats why you get all the hate. However, if you do a cool job with your army, and don't beat people over the head with your fluff that basically says you've beaten the entire galaxy 10 times over, I dont think you'll have any problems. It's your army, you could paint them pink and put hello kitty heads on them for all I care. You're playing a game with plastic army men, have fun with it!
Also, they were Matt Ward's favored child for a while, and anything that has come into contact with Matt Ward tends to receive undying hate from the 40k community.
/thread.
Zweischneid's answer painfully echoes the (tongue-in-cheek mind you) "everyone is angsty and insecure and jealous because they know they will never be as good as Ultramarines" thing, but nobody has anything against ultrasmurf players. The army is to some extent associated with new players and they are, if I may say so, not exactly the choice to add diversity to your local gaming environment.
If you couldn't care less, you are free to play an army with an awesome Ancient Roma theme, and who's going to blame you for loving it ? Not me.
Zweischneid wrote:They call it the Nerd Hierarchy in other places.
By ridiculing and looking down on a hobby aspect virtually identical to their own, those deep-down uncomfortable with their hobby, too immature to face up to it and admit it to their peers and friends, can feel "more mature" about themselves and their time in the hobby by the self-delusion of collecting the "superior" plastic toys and reading the "superior" plastic-toy-background-fluff.
Umm, you're aware that what you're doing right now is part of the Nerd Hierarchy. "Phh, the commoners who hate Ultramarines are far below me in their delusion state. I am far more mature than them."
Now, my opinion is that people hate Ultramarines for many different reasons.
1. Fluff that's too over the top for Warhammer 40k.
2. Fluff that's too heroic and upbeat for Warhammer 40k.
3. The Nerd Hierarchy Zweischneid described (that's quite the username).
4. Band wagon people.
5. Jealousy of the army's attention.
Warrior Squirrel wrote:Ultramarines are to perfect. They are portrayed as the perfect chapter without faults. And that almost all Ultramarines are boring as feth. Just look at Captain Titus and Uriel. Boring souless mommies boys.
if it doesnt have a hint of evil thrown in i find i have no interest.
blood angels have blood red armour, astorath the grim, death company. gets the thumbs up from me.
Just enjoy your choice Darkwind, it doesn't matter what you go with in the end, there will always be people who don't like it. The best coping strategy is just to enjoy smiting 'thier' armies even more...
That's what I do and its never let me down! Except when my fourth company has to fight against the second company...that irks me a bit!
Warrior Squirrel wrote:Ultramarines are to perfect. They are portrayed as the perfect chapter without faults. And that almost all Ultramarines are boring as feth. Just look at Captain Titus and Uriel. Boring souless mommies boys.
Maybe this is my inner child pulling my head gravy around, but that's precisely what I like about them. I want my futuristic and perfect space men to be perfect. I don't want them to have flaws, I don't want them to be wolves in armour, or vampires. The shades-of-grey imperfections are for the Inquisition. At least in my mind. I collect Ultramarines for that reason, religious nutters al a BT, but civilised.
I hate all marines, every flavor, angry, robed, spikey, smurf, shiny, wolf, and vampire. Theyre boring. Superpowered warriors in super strong armor with rocket launcher guns. Yawn. Give me a story about a guardsman and his trusty lasgun over any marine.
Milisim wrote:Oblivious is right SM are truly the worlds most boring armies... The suits look dull, they are boring as hell to paint etc...
The difference between fast attack, elites, heavy support marines is the helmet is a different colour etc.... Whoopie doo.
Terminators are just FAT Marines nothing interesting at all....
Land raiders are just big rhinos and razorbacks are just rhinos with a gun on top etc.....
The whole SM breed is dull....
I might be biased though since I play only Xenos =]
Thanks, I'll go throw away my Crimson Fists company, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Chaos Marines. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways!
So outside of opinions taken to awful heights in this thread, I'll get on topic. Ultramarines are "hated" because they're on the box art, and have been since the mid-late nineties. They're the most vanilla Space Marine chapter, and are seen as the posterboys, as so far as to literally be on the posters. There's this stigma that only noobs play them and paint their Marines that way, but precious few players actually paint their Marines as Ultramarines. It's an attractive scheme and can look wonderful in the hands of a good painter.
I have no problem at all with them. In fact, I quite like them. As said by Brother SRM, if done well, they can look quite impressive. Plus I find their Roman-theme quite cool.
As it happens, the UM are my 3rd favorite chapter, being beaten only by the IF(2nd) and Sallies(1st).
a local saying here: "if you see a 13 yr old boy in a gaming store he's either playing yugioh or ultramarines"
Hey! I don't play yugioh or ultramarines! In fact I have 8 or 9 armies none of which are smurfs. But then again I'm not your typical 13 year old wargamer.
Anyway on topic: I don't mind the smurfs at all. In fact they are quite cool pre-heresy. other then that though I'm not that big of a fan of ultramarines.
Milisim wrote:Oblivious is right SM are truly the worlds most boring armies... The suits look dull, they are boring as hell to paint etc...
The difference between fast attack, elites, heavy support marines is the helmet is a different colour etc.... Whoopie doo.
Terminators are just FAT Marines nothing interesting at all....
Land raiders are just big rhinos and razorbacks are just rhinos with a gun on top etc.....
The whole SM breed is dull....
I might be biased though since I play only Xenos =]
I was referring to the fluff. Its boring to read about near invincible marines slaying all that oppose them. And hearing how heroic and brave they are. Its more interesting to read about human guardsman fighting the same threat and beating them dispite being mere humans.
One word. Superman. He's the poster boy for DC , they're GW's. He's the boy scout with all the powers and only 1 weakness that he can overcome just cause. They have no defining characteristics, never fail, and just seem to be incorruptible. No depth, no character, no struggle. It's generally the fluff people hate. That's why I play SW. They're like the Batman of 40k. But if it's an army you like, make them your own. Give them character. And crush the haters.
Smurfs arent all that hated anymore and it seems everyone has their share of haters. I mean look at tau or gk threads. lol Theres hate everywhere. It's what unites people. If its not an army its an author or gw themselves. Find a wargamer who likes everyone and thats more shocking then someone who hates an armye etc.
I have found (as I have said on our show) that people say Ultramarines are everywhere - but at least in our community (which is quite large for 40k around here) you just DON'T see them very often.
That was one of the main reasons I decided to pick them up! A well painted Ultramarine Army is really a beautiful thing to look at.
I've always seen it as the old 'it's cool to hate things that are popular'. Once it's popular, it's gone mainstream. It's not worthy of praise anymore.
Ultra Marines. I think people hate on them because they are seen as the cheese of all cheeses. My first army. I chose them because I like to be hated for nerdy reasons. Just kidding. It's a great army to play. The fact that their fluff states best of the best, has always made me not want to loose with them.
Milisim wrote:Too bad that nid invasion didnt wipe them out.....
Ultramarines are hated because they are called ULTRA meaning even better than normal.... not to mention they are so oversaturated with fluff and imagery that most people shy away from the smurfs because they are too GW.
Its bad enough that new players flock to play marines, its even worse they play Ultramarines =]
DarkWind wrote:This is something I have always wondered. Since I first started the game I have always wanted to field a Ultramarine army, but due to peoples personal opinion and my pathetic need to be accepted by everyone I never touched them. Now I'm finally over that I'm going forward to build a Ultramarine army.
So now to my question... Why do people hate them so?
Several reasons:
-They are stupidly overpowered and most Space Marine fluff is going toward them, totally ignoring other Chapters and their battles.
-They miss some of the most important events in the galaxy because their empire is situated on the other side of the galaxy ( Vandire's war, Armageddon War, Black Crusades, Badab War... )
-Their major characters are OP as hell ( Calgar being able to beat Avatar of Khaine in close combat with one punch and Varro Tigurius rumored to be able to tap to Hive Mind ).
-They are always taking credit after winning battle, especially from Imperial Guard.
-The most important reason why they are hated is breaking down Legions into Chapters. Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and others would never forget them doing that.
-In most resent times they are hated because of Matt Ward and his: "They are so awesome that every other Marine in the galaxy want's to be Ultramarine".
-They are stupidly overpowered and most Space Marine fluff is going toward them, totally ignoring other Chapters and their battles.
Hrmpf, the current book is somewhat ultramarinecentric ( not suprising if you consider that they are the archetypical codex adherent chapter ) true but if you wish to complain about "overpowered" chapters than look no further than the spacewolves, blood angels and grey knights books. Compared to them the ultramarines fluff is tame.
Brother Coa wrote:
-They miss some of the most important events in the galaxy because their empire is situated on the other side of the galaxy ( Vandire's war, Armageddon War, Black Crusades, Badab War... )
Sure they missed some wars, just like every single chapter in existance, who cares? Besides that, the Ultramarines participate in the current black crusade, they are heavily engaged against the Tau, help(ed) to contain the Orkempire of Charadon, fought in the second war for Armageddon and play a considerable role in the Tyranic wars.
Brother Coa wrote:
-Their major characters are OP as hell ( Calgar being able to beat Avatar of Khaine in close combat with one punch and Varro Tigurius rumored to be able to tap to Hive Mind ).
Draigo, Dante, Mephiston, Lysander, Maugan Ra, Creed, Gaunt's Sues...erm, Ghosts...
Stupidly powerful characters are nothing that only affects the Ultramarines.
Brother Coa wrote:
-They are always taking credit after winning battle, especially from Imperial Guard.
Oh do they? Please point me to some fluff where they actualy do. It is the current writingstyle which tends to attribute victories chiefly to the spacemarines but that is not a problem of the Ultramarines themselfs.
Brother Coa wrote:
-The most important reason why they are hated is breaking down Legions into Chapters. Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and others would never forget them doing that.
The Spacesues do whatever the hell they want and the Imperial Fists have fully embraced the Codex Astartes. There is no bad blood whatsoever between the two chapters regarding the codex.
Brother Coa wrote:
-In most resent times they are hated because of Matt Ward and his: "They are so awesome that every other Marine in the galaxy want's to be Ultramarine".
That is the only vallid point i give you. Ward went a bit overboard. Of course the same can be observed in Kelly's Spacesues book or the Ward's other two marine books.
LoneLictor wrote:
Umm, you're aware that what you're doing right now is part of the Nerd Hierarchy. "Phh, the commoners who hate Ultramarines are far below me in their delusion state. I am far more mature than them."
Quite the opposite. I am likely even "lower" on the scale for being even more jaded in many respects. But the 12-year old diving into the hobby and his Ultramarines with unspoilt passion, excitement and exuberance is at the top of any and all hierarchies if there ever were one. If you hate them, you likely hate that very spark of initial passion that first brought you yourself into the hobby and that you try to recapture in some way as you pick up your mini, dice or paintbrush.
And in either case, I did not claim that self-reflection is to automatically overcome your flaws. But it is an important first step.
-They are stupidly overpowered and most Space Marine fluff is going toward them, totally ignoring other Chapters and their battles.
Hrmpf, the current book is somewhat ultramarinecentric ( not suprising if you consider that they are the archetypical codex adherent chapter ) true but if you wish to complain about "overpowered" chapters than look no further than the spacewolves, blood angels and grey knights books. Compared to them the ultramarines fluff is tame.
Overpowered in a sense that they rarely lose to some opponent. Their own codex stated that any Marine from Ultramarines Legion have obligation to come and aid Calgar in case of emergency. That means that Calgar in any given moment can take command of around 600.000 Marines all over the galaxy. And furthermore, overpowered in fact that they can do amazing thing with ease and within seconds that others need special troops and minutes. You are not agreeing that most Space Marine fluff is going toward them just see first 40k movie - "Ultramarines - the gratest of them all".
Brother Coa wrote:
-They miss some of the most important events in the galaxy because their empire is situated on the other side of the galaxy ( Vandire's war, Armageddon War, Black Crusades, Badab War... )
Sure they missed some wars, just like every single chapter in existance, who cares? Besides that, the Ultramarines participate in the current black crusade, they are heavily engaged against the Tau, help(ed) to contain the Orkempire of Charadon, fought in the second war for Armageddon and play a considerable role in the Tyranic wars.
Of course, who cares about Vandire and Abaddon, they are after all minor characters in Imperial history.... In the current black Crusade they send undermanned company, Tau threat is minor and not even significant, they didn't fought in 1'st and second war witch were most important, in Badab war witch was mini Horus heresy, they didn't participate during the The Beheading, they didn't participate in Sabbat Worlds Crusade, at the battle of Rynn's World... The only notable fighting being Orkempire of Charadon and Tyranic Wars.
Black Tempalrs are doing a hell more fighting and crusading then Ultramarines yet Ultramarines get all the glory.
Brother Coa wrote:
-Their major characters are OP as hell ( Calgar being able to beat Avatar of Khaine in close combat with one punch and Varro Tigurius rumored to be able to tap to Hive Mind ).
Draigo, Dante, Mephiston, Lysander, Maugan Ra, Creed, Gaunt's Sues...erm, Ghosts...
Stupidly powerful characters are nothing that only affects the Ultramarines.
You are right about that, but Ultras are chapter with most OP characters in the Imperium. Calgar, Telon, Cato, Tigrius, Varnus...
Brother Coa wrote:
-They are always taking credit after winning battle, especially from Imperial Guard.
Oh do they? Please point me to some fluff where they actualy do. It is the current writingstyle which tends to attribute victories chiefly to the spacemarines but that is not a problem of the Ultramarines themselves.
Macragge PDF, Ultramrines get all the credit from that battle while PDF get only " they were just helping us out" badge. There is not even mention of PDF defending planet beside helping Ultramarines and dying while they retreat. Adn they die all together at northern fortress. There are various other examples, but in more recent time credits were also given to Guard Regiments ( like Sturn's 412 Cadian ).
Brother Coa wrote:
-The most important reason why they are hated is breaking down Legions into Chapters. Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and others would never forget them doing that.
The Spacesues do whatever the hell they want and the Imperial Fists have fully embraced the Codex Astartes. There is no bad blood whatsoever between the two chapters regarding the codex.
No bad blood? Tell that to Raven Guard, Black Templars and Space Wolves who use Codex Astartes as toilet paper. And this is the 1'st example whiel people hate Ultramarines. Answer is always the same: "They screwup the Imperium by splitting the Legions into Chapters, and doing all that after being late for the final battle." It seems people mind Ultramarines take over of the Imperium after Emperor's wounding.
Brother Coa wrote:
-In most resent times they are hated because of Matt Ward and his: "They are so awesome that every other Marine in the galaxy want's to be Ultramarine".
That is the only vallid point i give you. Ward went a bit overboard. Of course the same can be observed in Kelly's Spacesues book or the Ward's other two marine books.
I am glad that we agree at something But why are you interested in this? You are Chaos fan, what reason do you have in debating loyalist Chapter?
Personally, I like the Ultras. I understand they were pretty hyped over the past years due to being the "poster boys" of GW, as has already been mentioned, and that it's this that made some people dislike them. Me, I have to appreciate that they are still the "core" of what a Space Marine Chapter, as per my own perception, should look like. Not too independent and speshul like the almighty Space Wolves and their constant "get out of jail free" card (that lets them avoid getting excommunicated in spite of constantly fething around with every Imperial institution in existence and sporting one of the most corrupted geneseeds ever), but at the same time not too whacky like the Black Templars and their stance on psykers (which I see as one of the major themes of the Ecclesiarchy). The strict Codex-adherence and apparent self-commitment to the Imperial cause are flaws enough for me, even though some people may not perceive them as such - but it's certainly better than "pseudo flaws" like geneseed deviations only meant to make a Chapter look "even cooler" rather than posing a true obstruction.
People who think the Ultras' fluff is too much also need to take a look at the SW and GK codices.
The one and only thing I didn't really appreciate was certain 5E design changes on their minis, as I think the Space Marines in general are slowly creeping more and more onto the pseudo-religious style I perceive as "reserved" for SoB and Ecclesiarchy miniatures.
Fun fact, even though I never actually played them as an army, my very first 40k miniatures ever was a squad of Tactical Marines painted in Ultramarine colours.
DarthSpader wrote:i think mainly it has to do with GW selecting the ultrasmurfs as the poster boy for the hobby.
^This.
The only reason I don't like them is because they are everywhere. On boxes, posters, starter kits...It's not so much the Ultrasmurfs fault, it's just my longing to break away from the norm.
I always thought ultramarine hate was a running joke. You hated ultramarines because 'it was the cool thing to do' but never seriously cared. Then, i met my first group of meme spouting neckbeards, and I realized a lot of the hate they get on the internet was real. Fortunately, it seems limited to meme spouting neckbeards who visit 4chan, so if you arent one of them, youve got the high road in real life.
Brother Coa wrote:
-Their major characters are OP as hell ( Calgar being able to beat Avatar of Khaine in close combat with one punch and Varro Tigurius rumored to be able to tap to Hive Mind ).
Draigo, Dante, Mephiston, Lysander, Maugan Ra, Creed, Gaunt's Sues...erm, Ghosts...
Stupidly powerful characters are nothing that only affects the Ultramarines.
While I agree that everyone has stupidly overpowered and overdone stuff, I must point out that the Phoenix Lords are neither mortal nor invincible. Most of them have died tens, if not hundreds, of times.
The major reason would be, as others have said, the fluff. It's hard to stay interesting when you are apparently the paragon of marines, and even harder with the sheer volume of fluff given to them. And besides that, in the current codex they have like five special characters. Too many.
Also, their name is a double pun. Bad.
Maze wrote: That's why I play SW. They're like the Batman of 40k.
Durza wrote:The major reason would be, as others have said, the fluff. It's hard to stay interesting when you are apparently the paragon of marines, and even harder with the sheer volume of fluff given to them. And besides that, in the current codex they have like five special characters. Too many.
Also, their name is a double pun. Bad.
Maze wrote: That's why I play SW. They're like the Batman of 40k.
Spoiler:
Why do you say space wolves but have a picture of a night lord?
I think ultramarines are disliked for their fluff and uninterestingness. Sure, a well painted ultramarine force can look good, but its really not that interesting.
Ascalam wrote:Or sitting on their own pocket empire, waiting to see who won...
Guilliman was a coward, but a smart con man
Know No Fear puts’ this theory to rest I’m pleased to say. The Ultramarines lost practically their entire fleet to Calth, plus the Word Bearers created warp storms around Ultramar, as detailed in the novel. Guilliman is pretty much stuck in Ultramar, although not really his fault.
-They are stupidly overpowered and most Space Marine fluff is going toward them, totally ignoring other Chapters and their battles.
Hrmpf, the current book is somewhat ultramarinecentric ( not suprising if you consider that they are the archetypical codex adherent chapter ) true but if you wish to complain about "overpowered" chapters than look no further than the spacewolves, blood angels and grey knights books. Compared to them the ultramarines fluff is tame.
Brother Coa wrote:
-They miss some of the most important events in the galaxy because their empire is situated on the other side of the galaxy ( Vandire's war, Armageddon War, Black Crusades, Badab War... )
Sure they missed some wars, just like every single chapter in existance, who cares? Besides that, the Ultramarines participate in the current black crusade, they are heavily engaged against the Tau, help(ed) to contain the Orkempire of Charadon, fought in the second war for Armageddon and play a considerable role in the Tyranic wars.
Brother Coa wrote:
-Their major characters are OP as hell ( Calgar being able to beat Avatar of Khaine in close combat with one punch and Varro Tigurius rumored to be able to tap to Hive Mind ).
Draigo, Dante, Mephiston, Lysander, Maugan Ra, Creed, Gaunt's Sues...erm, Ghosts...
Stupidly powerful characters are nothing that only affects the Ultramarines.
Brother Coa wrote:
-They are always taking credit after winning battle, especially from Imperial Guard.
Oh do they? Please point me to some fluff where they actualy do. It is the current writingstyle which tends to attribute victories chiefly to the spacemarines but that is not a problem of the Ultramarines themselfs.
Brother Coa wrote:
-The most important reason why they are hated is breaking down Legions into Chapters. Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and others would never forget them doing that.
The Spacesues do whatever the hell they want and the Imperial Fists have fully embraced the Codex Astartes. There is no bad blood whatsoever between the two chapters regarding the codex.
Brother Coa wrote:
-In most resent times they are hated because of Matt Ward and his: "They are so awesome that every other Marine in the galaxy want's to be Ultramarine".
That is the only vallid point i give you. Ward went a bit overboard. Of course the same can be observed in Kelly's Spacesues book or the Ward's other two marine books.
I'm going to have to agree with just about everything KingDeath said here. The only thing I would add to this is that if their IC's are so overpowered... why, when I unveiled my list on multiple forums, was the first thing someone said was "I don't see Vulkan in this list. You should add him."
If you are speaking from a pure fluff standpoint - then certainly there are a lot of stories that focus on the greatness of some Ultramarine Characters. But as was just pointed out (by KingDeath) there are quite a few other extraordinary tales of heroism from other chapters as well. I think others have mentioned Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Blood Angels... each of these has given extraordinary treatment to their IC's as well. So I don't see this as a valid reason that people hate Ultramarines.
I am certain it has more to do with them being placed front and center by GW. The last two beginner boxed sets starred Ultramarines as well. So it is probably a time for a "passing of the torch" and if we are to believe current rumors. It will be Dark Angels next. But that's ok - people already hate them too!
It's like football teams. Some people love the 49ers. Others hate them, and why? Who the Hell knows...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gree wrote:
Ascalam wrote:Or sitting on their own pocket empire, waiting to see who won...
Guilliman was a coward, but a smart con man
Know No Fear puts’ this theory to rest I’m pleased to say. The Ultramarines lost practically their entire fleet to Calth, plus the Word Bearers created warp storms around Ultramar, as detailed in the novel. Guilliman is pretty much stuck in Ultramar, although not really his fault.
Know No Fear - if you don't like Ultramarines when you start this book - you will be hard pressed to NOT Like them when you finish it. Man this was a great novel.
Brother Coa wrote:
In the current black Crusade they send undermanned company,
They sent a full company to my recollection.
Brother Coa wrote:
Tau threat is minor and not even significant, they didn't fought in 1'st and second war witch were most important,
The Ultramarines fought in the second war for Armageddon.
Brother Coa wrote:
, in Badab war witch was mini Horus heresy,
Only the Salamanders paritcpated in that event.
Brother Coa wrote:
they didn't participate during the The Beheading, they didn't participate in Sabbat Worlds Crusade, at the battle of Rynn's World... The only notable fighting being Orkempire of Charadon and Tyranic Wars.
Most of those wars only had a couple of chapters involved. Are you going to start blaming them as well?
Brother Coa wrote:
Black Tempalrs are doing a hell more fighting and crusading then Ultramarines yet Ultramarines get all the glory.
Do you have proof that they do a hell of a lot more fighting?
Do you have any sources to back up your claims that the Ultramarines had fewer engagements than some other Chapters? Because I'll have you know that I can produce sources that suggest the opposite.
"Since the ancient times of the Great Crusade, the Ultramarines have fought at the forefront of the Emperor's armies. (...) Tales of their victories are told from their home world, Macragge, to the sacred halls of Terra. Whenever the enemies of Mankind threaten the Imperium, the Ultramarines stand ready to fight them."(Index Astartes Ultramarines, Introduction)
Obviously you can cite important battles where the Ultramarines didn't participate, but I think the reasons for why GW isn't including one particular Chapter in every campaign do not have to be discussed. But the notion that the Ultramarines are somehow confined to their home world, or a smaller region of space, and aren't participating in as many notable battles as many other Chapters is just completely baseless.
Brother Coa wrote:
Macragge PDF, Ultramrines get all the credit from that battle while PDF get only " they were just helping us out" badge. There is not even mention of PDF defending planet beside helping Ultramarines and dying while they retreat. Adn they die all together at northern fortress. There are various other examples, but in more recent time credits were also given to Guard Regiments ( like Sturn's 412 Cadian ).
Again, do you have any actual proof?
Brother Coa wrote:
No bad blood? Tell that to Raven Guard, Black Templars and Space Wolves who use Codex Astartes as toilet paper.
Actually the Raven Guard are Codex adherent. As noted in their Index Astartes article.
Brother Coa wrote:
. And this is the 1'st example whiel people hate Ultramarines. Answer is always the same: "They screwup the Imperium by splitting the Legions into Chapters, and doing all that after being late for the final battle." It seems people mind Ultramarines take over of the Imperium after Emperor's wounding.
Which is a good thing that’s not what’s described in the actual background.
From the Second Edition Codex Ultramarines.
"By the end of the Horus Heresy the galaxy was in turmoil once more. The armies of the Imperium were destroyed or scattered. Thousands of spacecraft had been lost in the conflict. Worse of all, the Emperor was gone. Though not actually dead he was lost to the living world and his spirit cast into the vortex of Chaos. The guidance which the Emperor had given the Imperium for hundreds of years was suddenly absent. Such was the power and influence of the Emperor that it was impossible to imagine a single successor inheriting his mantle. For a while it seemed as if the Imperium would surely break apart: that the Cult Mechanicus and the workshops of Mars would divorce themselves from the Imperium, that Primarchs and Space Marines would establish their own empires in the depths of space.
What happened next is the tribute to the skill and foresight of a very few powerful men, not least to the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman. A council was formed of the twelve most powerful individuals in the Imperium. They called themselves the High Lords of Terra, and their self-proclaimed role was to rule the Imperium on behalf of the Emperor. (...)
The High Lords established the divisions of the Imperium that remain familiar to this day. It was they who formalised the title of Adeptus which is used by all who are servants of the Emperor. The first High Lords laid the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary Lords. One of the most important of their accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium's armies. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the fleet and the Space Marines."
The Imperium was in danger of breaking apart, since the different factions were not focused by the leadership of the Emperor. The Cult Mechanicus threatened to secede, and the Primarchs were about to establish individual realms with their Legions. What happened then is credited to the foresight of a few powerful individuals, who created the first High Lords of Terra. They managed to formulate a mutually agreed vision for a future of the Imperium, and they then established the institutions of the Imnperium as exist to this day. one of their greatest accomplishments was the reorganization of the imperial armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by Roboute Guilliman, who according to the legends of the Ultramarines was one of the first High Lords.
From that fluff it seems that the formation of the High Lords was an urgent necessity, and was what saved the Imperium from breaking apart entirely.
The Primarchs were largely gone, because there now was a massive new threat in the form of the Chaos Legions, because the Emperor was gone, because the Imperium was almost completely destroyed, because the military forces were down to a fraction of it's strength during the Great Crusade, and because the Aliens and Heretics rose up all over the galaxy to attack the wounded Imperium. The background is pretty unambiguous in that the Imperium and the Space Marines could not just have dusted off and rebuilt the Legions and then continued as if nothing had happened. Things would never be the same again, and the Imperium would have fallen, had the High Lords not taken controll and consolidated the Imperial forces and established a structure that would allow the Imperium to function without the Emperor.
Brother Coa wrote: In the current black Crusade they send undermanned company,
They sent a full company to my recollection.
Brother Coa wrote: Tau threat is minor and not even significant, they didn't fought in 1'st and second war witch were most important,
The Ultramarines fought in the second war for Armageddon.
Brother Coa wrote: , in Badab war witch was mini Horus heresy,
Only the Salamanders paritcpated in that event.
Brother Coa wrote: they didn't participate during the The Beheading, they didn't participate in Sabbat Worlds Crusade, at the battle of Rynn's World... The only notable fighting being Orkempire of Charadon and Tyranic Wars.
Most of those wars only had a couple of chapters involved. Are you going to start blaming them as well?
Brother Coa wrote: Black Tempalrs are doing a hell more fighting and crusading then Ultramarines yet Ultramarines get all the glory.
Do you have proof that they do a hell of a lot more fighting?
Do you have any sources to back up your claims that the Ultramarines had fewer engagements than some other Chapters? Because I'll have you know that I can produce sources that suggest the opposite.
"Since the ancient times of the Great Crusade, the Ultramarines have fought at the forefront of the Emperor's armies. (...) Tales of their victories are told from their home world, Macragge, to the sacred halls of Terra. Whenever the enemies of Mankind threaten the Imperium, the Ultramarines stand ready to fight them."(Index Astartes Ultramarines, Introduction)
Obviously you can cite important battles where the Ultramarines didn't participate, but I think the reasons for why GW isn't including one particular Chapter in every campaign do not have to be discussed. But the notion that the Ultramarines are somehow confined to their home world, or a smaller region of space, and aren't participating in as many notable battles as many other Chapters is just completely baseless.
Brother Coa wrote: Macragge PDF, Ultramrines get all the credit from that battle while PDF get only " they were just helping us out" badge. There is not even mention of PDF defending planet beside helping Ultramarines and dying while they retreat. Adn they die all together at northern fortress. There are various other examples, but in more recent time credits were also given to Guard Regiments ( like Sturn's 412 Cadian ).
Again, do you have any actual proof?
Brother Coa wrote: No bad blood? Tell that to Raven Guard, Black Templars and Space Wolves who use Codex Astartes as toilet paper.
Actually the Raven Guard are Codex adherent. As noted in their Index Astartes article.
Brother Coa wrote: . And this is the 1'st example whiel people hate Ultramarines. Answer is always the same: "They screwup the Imperium by splitting the Legions into Chapters, and doing all that after being late for the final battle." It seems people mind Ultramarines take over of the Imperium after Emperor's wounding.
Which is a good thing that’s not what’s described in the actual background.
From the Second Edition Codex Ultramarines.
"By the end of the Horus Heresy the galaxy was in turmoil once more. The armies of the Imperium were destroyed or scattered. Thousands of spacecraft had been lost in the conflict. Worse of all, the Emperor was gone. Though not actually dead he was lost to the living world and his spirit cast into the vortex of Chaos. The guidance which the Emperor had given the Imperium for hundreds of years was suddenly absent. Such was the power and influence of the Emperor that it was impossible to imagine a single successor inheriting his mantle. For a while it seemed as if the Imperium would surely break apart: that the Cult Mechanicus and the workshops of Mars would divorce themselves from the Imperium, that Primarchs and Space Marines would establish their own empires in the depths of space. What happened next is the tribute to the skill and foresight of a very few powerful men, not least to the Ultramarines' Primarch Roboute Guilliman. A council was formed of the twelve most powerful individuals in the Imperium. They called themselves the High Lords of Terra, and their self-proclaimed role was to rule the Imperium on behalf of the Emperor. (...) The High Lords established the divisions of the Imperium that remain familiar to this day. It was they who formalised the title of Adeptus which is used by all who are servants of the Emperor. The first High Lords laid the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary Lords. One of the most important of their accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium's armies. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the fleet and the Space Marines."
The Imperium was in danger of breaking apart, since the different factions were not focused by the leadership of the Emperor. The Cult Mechanicus threatened to secede, and the Primarchs were about to establish individual realms with their Legions. What happened then is credited to the foresight of a few powerful individuals, who created the first High Lords of Terra. They managed to formulate a mutually agreed vision for a future of the Imperium, and they then established the institutions of the Imnperium as exist to this day. one of their greatest accomplishments was the reorganization of the imperial armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by Roboute Guilliman, who according to the legends of the Ultramarines was one of the first High Lords.
From that fluff it seems that the formation of the High Lords was an urgent necessity, and was what saved the Imperium from breaking apart entirely.
Great work kid...maybe you want to explain to me why people hate Ultramariens then?
Brother Coa wrote:
they didn't participate during the The Beheading, they didn't participate in Sabbat Worlds Crusade, at the battle of Rynn's World... The only notable fighting being Orkempire of Charadon and Tyranic Wars.
Most of those wars only had a couple of chapters involved. Are you going to start blaming them as well?
Could you imagine the outcry if they actually DID participate in EVERY conflict described by GW? "Oh man here come the Ultramarines AGAIN.... GW SURE DOES LOVE THEM! I'm so sick of Ultramarines!"
Actually while people hated the Ultramarines Pre-Ward I can’t think of any real hatred until Ward publishes his work and started to actively demean other chapters.
Brother Coa wrote: Great work kid...maybe you want to explain to me why people hate Ultramariens then?
It was good work. No need to get personal about it. And several people have already put forth theories as to why the Ultramarines, specifically are "hated". I, for one, am convinced it has more to do with the marketing of GW than any piece of fluff.
Brother Coa wrote:
they didn't participate during the The Beheading, they didn't participate in Sabbat Worlds Crusade, at the battle of Rynn's World... The only notable fighting being Orkempire of Charadon and Tyranic Wars.
Most of those wars only had a couple of chapters involved. Are you going to start blaming them as well?
Could you imagine the outcry if they actually DID participate in EVERY conflict described by GW? "Oh man here come the Ultramarines AGAIN.... GW SURE DOES LOVE THEM! I'm so sick of Ultramarines!"
It's a no win situation hahaha
Yeah, there are 1,000 Chapters. Most engagements will only include a hand full of Chapters. Having one single Chapter be part of all of those engagements is statistically not only improbable, but impossible, seeing as many big engagements will be happening at the same time. It is not like most Chapetrs just sit around all day and wait several centuries for something exciting to happen.
It seems logical to me that all non fleet-based chapters would limit themselves to a segmentum at most (unless things are super dire). It still takes time to travel in the warp and that's not incredibly reliable.
When Marines are needed, they're needed NOW. Their response needs to be rapid. There are a thousand chapters and a million marines in the galaxy: If only ten thousand of those marines are from the original legions, then of course they're not going to be in every fight!
Thus when we hear about BTs or DAs interfering all over the galaxy, that's fine; they might just happen to be there at that one given time. Space Wolves, Salamanders and Ultramarines? They'll have a far more limited range.
I think if we want proof of the UMs exerting an influence beyond their segmentum, then there should be fluff looking to their successors; which I find utterly neglected.
Successor chapters often have the traits of their original legion, so rather than reading about the million deeds of original legions who, barring the BTs and the SWs, nowadays don't number more than a thousand per legion, we should read about what their successors do; it'd be the same kind of stuff, similar tactics and doctrines, but with different names. Also would give them a longer reach.
I think there are a few misconceptions about the Codex Astartes.
1) The Codex (in 40.000) is not "Ultramarine Combat Doctrine". It is a "Living document" collecting the "wisdom" and strategems from all loyal codex-chapters from 10.000 years. I vaguely remember a (FW?) story were a particluarly effective Raven Guard strategy was "chosen to be included in the Codex"; which was a great honor. To defy the Codex, is not defying the Ultramarines. It is defying the battle-wisdom of Imperial Fist, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, etc.. in equal measure.
2) The Ultramarines do not "enforce" use of the Codex. At the beginning of the post-Heresy, it was enforced in parts by the Adeptus Terra, though it is said they no longer do (or could). The Ultramarines could care less if others adhere to the Codex or not. They adhere because they belief in it. Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Blood Angels, etc.. also adhere to it because they believe in it. And the only ones that would remotely care if a chapter goes "non-Codex" would´be the Adeptus Terra. The Imperial Fist, Raven Guard, Ultramarines, etc.. who all believe in it would just shake their head and move on.
3) Claiming other Codex-adherent chapters are "forced" to compy with the Codex (and hating Ultramarines for it) is like hating Ancient Greece for "forcing" Democracy on the US, Canada, etc.. . Ancient Greece was simply the first who adopted it, and at that in an early incarnation that bears little resemblance to the modern thing. But anyone who goes along with it (or against it) 3.000 (or, respectively 10.000) years later does so on their own volition.
I was watching Being Human on Monday night. During the show, the character Sally look at Josh and said the following. (paraphrased)
"Your favorite movie is Star Trek V: The Final Frontier though you tell people it is The Wrath of Khan just so people will think your cool"
I found that line funny on multiple levels. It applies to this conversation because everyone here is playing with toy soldiers. Blue, Red, or Green toy soldiers does not matter to 99.999% of people.
The problem is that they have been in very few of the major battles of the Imperium, but are still lauded as the ultimate heroes of the Space Marines. They even lost the battle where they may or may not have killed a primarch because they under estimated their enemy.
TheRobotLol wrote:
Durza wrote:The major reason would be, as others have said, the fluff. It's hard to stay interesting when you are apparently the paragon of marines, and even harder with the sheer volume of fluff given to them. And besides that, in the current codex they have like five special characters. Too many.
Also, their name is a double pun. Bad.
Maze wrote: That's why I play SW. They're like the Batman of 40k.
Spoiler:
Why do you say space wolves but have a picture of a night lord?
I think ultramarines are disliked for their fluff and uninterestingness. Sure, a well painted ultramarine force can look good, but its really not that interesting.
Because the Night Lords are Batman, not the Space Wolves.
tantan628 wrote:Because they did things to me... things that would make even Slaanesh sick.
Part of me just died inside. Another part laughed itself in half.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Durza wrote:The problem is that they have been in very few of the major battles of the Imperium, but are still lauded as the ultimate heroes of the Space Marines. They even lost the battle where they may or may not have killed a primarch because they under estimated their enemy.
TheRobotLol wrote:
Durza wrote:The major reason would be, as others have said, the fluff. It's hard to stay interesting when you are apparently the paragon of marines, and even harder with the sheer volume of fluff given to them. And besides that, in the current codex they have like five special characters. Too many.
Also, their name is a double pun. Bad.
Maze wrote: That's why I play SW. They're like the Batman of 40k.
Spoiler:
Why do you say space wolves but have a picture of a night lord?
I think ultramarines are disliked for their fluff and uninterestingness. Sure, a well painted ultramarine force can look good, but its really not that interesting.
Because the Night Lords are Batman, not the Space Wolves.
Ooooh, I got the wrong end of the stick. Comment withdrawn,
labmouse42 wrote:I was watching Being Human on Monday night. During the show, the character Sally look at Josh and said the following. (paraphrased)
"Your favorite movie is Star Trek V: The Final Frontier though you tell people it is The Wrath of Khan just so people will think your cool"
I found that line funny on multiple levels. It applies to this conversation because everyone here is playing with toy soldiers. Blue, Red, or Green toy soldiers does not matter to 99.999% of people.
Amen. If you play with little toy soldiers, the colour your little toy soldiers is irrelevant. You're still a nerd.
labmouse42 wrote:I was watching Being Human on Monday night. During the show, the character Sally look at Josh and said the following. (paraphrased)
"Your favorite movie is Star Trek V: The Final Frontier though you tell people it is The Wrath of Khan just so people will think your cool"
I found that line funny on multiple levels. It applies to this conversation because everyone here is playing with toy soldiers. Blue, Red, or Green toy soldiers does not matter to 99.999% of people.
Amen. If you play with little toy soldiers, the colour your little toy soldiers is irrelevant. You're still a nerd.
Also, how spiky, big, angry looking or robot-esque has no impact.
Then, accepting we are nerds, why can't we get involved in the fluff?
I don't give a gak what other people think. If we want to attempt to salvage some social credibility by stepping back and doing 'lol this is a discussion about toys!' then fair enough, but OP clearly cared enough about the fluff and perceptions of it to make this topic, so I think the withdrawal option is a tad redundant, no?
At the end of the day, some of us do care; it's what makes us utter nerds; that we're obsessive enough about the fluff to put the same commitment to memorising/debating it as we would politics or history. I believe the common perception of a geek/nerd is that they'll enthuse about a single topic that they're obsessed with regardless of if anyone else cares or not.
I think what my original issue with people hating on the Ultramarines is the fact that on the table they are just a vanilla Space Marine army. They can't have a troop choice with all power weapons and jump packs, they don't deep strike Landraiders, they don't have the dread knight, they don't have a air craft that carries 20 troop stands plus a dreadnought they don't have a fast moving tank that fires a str 10 ap1 gun, ect.... more practical reasons I can see people hating armies.
I understand the Idea of hating them in the fluff but from what I've taken away since they are the current most numerous Chapter in the universe the 41 millineum is the chapters prime point in their history. All the other Chapters have had wars and battles of glory that numbers in the thousands. Their primarchs played major roles in Imperial history that changed the outcome for humanity in some way shape or form, and being that the Ultramarines were separated from the most crucial event in Imperial history they are just having their time to shine. I feel what Matty did get a little over the top all chapters longing to be the Ultramarines is a little extreme why would they want to loose their personal identity and the identity of their primarch? That being said thou I feel the Ultramaries were originally meant for new comers because their fluff is so vague giving the player the idea you are the one who will write their story, you will play out their age of glory, and you will be the commander who's name will be written in the codices of history.
A lot of it appears to be bandwagon, people just hating them for the sake of it.
Personally I've disliked, not hated, them since I first started in the hobby those 17 years or so ago. First thing I don't like about them is their colour scheme. Ultramarines blue I just do not like at all. The darker Crimson Fist blue I sort of like, but I've never been one for blues really. Reds, greens, greys & blacks, yes, but not blues. Secondly they're the 'Codex' Chapter and I've never been able to stick with the popular option in anything - it's the deep-seated British urge to support the underdog, I suppose. I just don't like doing the same thing as everyone else. Any other reasons I can't pin down and put into words but Ultramarines just don't suit me.
Henners91 wrote:Then, accepting we are nerds, why can't we get involved in the fluff?
I don't give a gak what other people think. If we want to attempt to salvage some social credibility by stepping back and doing 'lol this is a discussion about toys!' then fair enough, but OP clearly cared enough about the fluff and perceptions of it to make this topic, so I think the withdrawal option is a tad redundant, no?
At the end of the day, some of us do care; it's what makes us utter nerds; that we're obsessive enough about the fluff to put the same commitment to memorising/debating it as we would politics or history. I believe the common perception of a geek/nerd is that they'll enthuse about a single topic that they're obsessed with regardless of if anyone else cares or not.
I am a Dark Angel addict. (Thus the tag.) Why? Because on a simple level, I thought it silly to go onto a lethal future battlefield in neon colors. Dark Angels at least wear a dark green that might actually obscure themselves. No the boys in blue might as well be launching fireworks into the sky and illuminating themselves with their searchlights in my mind.
The wolves go in grey that makes sense as grey -especially in a concrete urban setting will mix in. Bllack templars may stand out like a sore thumb but at night they would be scary to face.
Now we come to the ultimate marine moniker- sorry but for me no ultimate warrior is going to be in blue, yellow or red for that matter and I do have a problem with robes (one mark against the DA). Also DA fluff comes across as the ultimate thinking man's marine - with their one hidden secret. So DA may be the ultimate in combat but they realize they have some limitations and flaws. The Ultramarines hit me as a force of propaganda. They sweep their (many) failures under the rug. They tell everyone they are the best to the point that now they believe it and so it seems in every fluff history, the Ultramarines F-A-I-L but the propaganda machine keeps churning out the garbage and the world keeps believing it. (Think the French in 1870 remembering how awesome they were under Napoleon getting their butts handed to them by the Prussians.)
Henners91 wrote:Then, accepting we are nerds, why can't we get involved in the fluff?
I don't give a gak what other people think. If we want to attempt to salvage some social credibility by stepping back and doing 'lol this is a discussion about toys!' then fair enough, but OP clearly cared enough about the fluff and perceptions of it to make this topic, so I think the withdrawal option is a tad redundant, no?
At the end of the day, some of us do care; it's what makes us utter nerds; that we're obsessive enough about the fluff to put the same commitment to memorising/debating it as we would politics or history. I believe the common perception of a geek/nerd is that they'll enthuse about a single topic that they're obsessed with regardless of if anyone else cares or not.
I am a Dark Angel addict. (Thus the tag.) Why? Because on a simple level, I thought it silly to go onto a lethal future battlefield in neon colors. Dark Angels at least wear a dark green that might actually obscure themselves. No the boys in blue might as well be launching fireworks into the sky and illuminating themselves with their searchlights in my mind.
The wolves go in grey that makes sense as grey -especially in a concrete urban setting will mix in. Bllack templars may stand out like a sore thumb but at night they would be scary to face.
Well the Dark Angels also go into battle wearing cream robes and their First Company goes into battle wearing bright white………..
I'm not really sure it's fair to criticise Ultramarines for wearing bright colors when 90% of Marine Chapters do that. (Along with forgetting to wear helmets)
DAaddict wrote:
The Ultramarines hit me as a force of propaganda. They sweep their (many) failures under the rug. They tell everyone they are the best to the point that now they believe it and so it seems in every fluff history, the Ultramarines F-A-I-L but the propaganda machine keeps churning out the garbage and the world keeps believing it. (Think the French in 1870 remembering how awesome they were under Napoleon getting their butts handed to them by the Prussians.)
There is a crucial difference between GW telling us that the Ultramarines are the greatest Chapter and the Ultramarines themselves proclaiming that they are the greatest Chapter. The latter would be pretty arrogant, while the former is merely GW describing the background. This is like saying the Dark Angels go around telling everyone that they have a big secret but aren't telling what it is.
I have no hate towards ultras nor anyone that likes to play them. Personally, I would not pick them as a chapter to play because they just seem a bit bland to me and I want more spice. With so many different documented chapters, and the ability to create your own, I just wouldn't want to be 'another ultramarine'. The thought of being 'another space marine' is hard enough for me to swallow.
-Their major characters are OP as hell ( Calgar being able to beat Avatar of Khaine in close combat with one punch and Varro Tigurius rumored to be able to tap to Hive Mind ).
-The most important reason why they are hated is breaking down Legions into Chapters. Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and others would never forget them doing that.
The Spacesues do whatever the hell they want and the Imperial Fists have fully embraced the Codex Astartes. There is no bad blood whatsoever between the two chapters regarding the codex.
-In most resent times they are hated because of Matt Ward and his: "They are so awesome that every other Marine in the galaxy want's to be Ultramarine".
1) My only problem with their characters is that they werent spread to the other chapters. Tellion practically yells Raven Guard and the Tank hero yells Iron Hands. I mean there is no reason why the UM should have the best scouts and best tankers in the galaxy when the Raven Guard and Iron Hands actually specialize in that stuff. However that doesnt upset, I just few it was a missed chance and would have helped alleviate some of the hate towards them. (Chaplain and Librarian are okay mainly because I cant think of a chapter that deserved them better)
2) Thats not really a UM probablem as it is a Roboute Guilliman. I HATE Guiliman for his decisions during and after the Heresy, the Codex Astartes is a shinning monument to his stupidity. Thankfully the fluff now a days like in the UM novels and the Space Marine makes it clear that if you are constantly using the Codex you are eventually going to get fethed.
3) As I said, this is my only problem with them. So it is less I dislike the Ultramarines as it is I dont like how people write about them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AtomicEngineer wrote:Forget the Ultramarines hate...
Wheres the Blood ravens love?
feth the Blood Ravens.
Im a huge Imperial Guard fan so I look at them with major distrust. Thankfully Angellos is in charge so they may deem themselves worthy of the Imperium later
Galdos wrote:
2) Thats not really a UM probablem as it is a Roboute Guilliman. I HATE Guiliman for his decisions during and after the Heresy, the Codex Astartes is a shinning monument to his stupidity. Thankfully the fluff now a days like in the UM novels and the Space Marine makes it clear that if you are constantly using the Codex you are eventually going to get fethed.
Well I have a number of issues with those novels in that they conflict with studio fluff. But if you are using the novels then you have Guilliman himself stating he just intended it to be used as a guide and not a rulebook.
(But the studio fluff points out anyway that the Codex tactics and organization are not mandatory and they can’t really enforce it. All those chapters who follow the Codex follow it because they choose to)
Zweischneid wrote:I think there are a few misconceptions about the Codex Astartes.
1) The Codex (in 40.000) is not "Ultramarine Combat Doctrine". It is a "Living document" collecting the "wisdom" and strategems from all loyal codex-chapters from 10.000 years. I vaguely remember a (FW?) story were a particluarly effective Raven Guard strategy was "chosen to be included in the Codex"; which was a great honor. To defy the Codex, is not defying the Ultramarines. It is defying the battle-wisdom of Imperial Fist, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Crimson Fists, etc.. in equal measure.
3) Claiming other Codex-adherent chapters are "forced" to compy with the Codex (and hating Ultramarines for it) is like hating Ancient Greece for "forcing" Democracy on the US, Canada, etc.. . Ancient Greece was simply the first who adopted it, and at that in an early incarnation that bears little resemblance to the modern thing. But anyone who goes along with it (or against it) 3.000 (or, respectively 10.000) years later does so on their own volition.
1) No actually is is the UM combat doctrine. Guiliman wrote it DURING the Horus Heresy with the intention of spreading it to the other legions. It may have tactics used by the other chapters but it is the Ultarmarine's work. This means if you defy the the Codex, you are defying the Ultramarines. The other chapters could care less if they are defied sense they didnt make it. The UM would care however sense THEY made it.
3) They actually were forced. Ancient Greece didnt open fire and attack the US and threaten all out war with them. The UM threated war and actually attacked the Imperial Fist when they refused to use the codex. Dorn, trying to prevent another Civil War, backed down. This meant that all the founding chapters were expected to follow it.
Now your point 2 is correct. They dont actually enforce it so at any time you can say "feth you guys, Im going my way" and you will be good like the Space Wolves and Black Templar
Galdos wrote:
1) No actually is is the UM combat doctrine. Guiliman wrote it DURING the Horus Heresy with the intention of spreading it to the other legions. It may have tactics used by the other chapters but it is the Ultarmarine's work. This means if you defy the the Codex, you are defying the Ultramarines. The other chapters could care less if they are defied sense they didnt make it. The UM would care however sense THEY made it.
I’m not sure why exactly they would care. If an Ultramarine successor was ignoring it then they might care, but why would they care if the Iron Hands or Space Wolves defy it?
Galdos wrote:
3) They actually were forced. Ancient Greece didnt open fire and attack the US and threaten all out war with them. The UM threated war and actually attacked the Imperial Fist when they refused to use the codex. Dorn, trying to prevent another Civil War, backed down. This meant that all the founding chapters were expected to follow it.
No, that was just about the size limits and breaking up the Legions. If everybody was forced at gunpoint to adopt every aspect of the Codex, then why do the Iron Hands and Salamanders have non-Codex elements? Why are the Space Wolves and Templars non-Codex then?
Galdos wrote:
2) Thats not really a UM probablem as it is a Roboute Guilliman. I HATE Guiliman for his decisions during and after the Heresy, the Codex Astartes is a shinning monument to his stupidity. Thankfully the fluff now a days like in the UM novels and the Space Marine makes it clear that if you are constantly using the Codex you are eventually going to get fethed.
Well I have a number of issues with those novels in that they conflict with studio fluff. But if you are using the novels then you have Guilliman himself stating he just intended it to be used as a guide and not a rulebook.
(But the studio fluff points out anyway that the Codex tactics and organization are not mandatory and they can’t really enforce it. All those chapters who follow the Codex follow it because they choose to)
Thats a good point he does say that. However he kind of picks and choose what parts are mandatory. He pretty much tells everyone and threatens war with the Imperial Fist if they dont have founding chapters and limit themselves to a 1000 Marines. After he convinced everyone to follow him he kind of stopped enforcing it *shrugs* kind of strange now that I think of it. You think they would have a problem with the Black Templars
Galdos wrote:
2) Thats not really a UM probablem as it is a Roboute Guilliman. I HATE Guiliman for his decisions during and after the Heresy, the Codex Astartes is a shinning monument to his stupidity. Thankfully the fluff now a days like in the UM novels and the Space Marine makes it clear that if you are constantly using the Codex you are eventually going to get fethed.
Well I have a number of issues with those novels in that they conflict with studio fluff. But if you are using the novels then you have Guilliman himself stating he just intended it to be used as a guide and not a rulebook.
(But the studio fluff points out anyway that the Codex tactics and organization are not mandatory and they can’t really enforce it. All those chapters who follow the Codex follow it because they choose to)
Thats a good point he does say that. However he kind of picks and choose what parts are mandatory. He pretty much tells everyone and threatens war with the Imperial Fist if they dont have founding chapters and limit themselves to a 1000 Marines. After he convinced everyone to follow him he kind of stopped enforcing it *shrugs* kind of strange now that I think of it. You think they would have a problem with the Black Templars
Although you are not being fair here. It was Dorn who at least was contributing to the dispute and technically Dorn who was defying the Imperium. Guilliman was charged by the High Lords (As I noted earlier) and he had the support of most of the Primarchs. This was not something Guilliman decided on a whim, it was what the Imperium wanted.
Originally it was Guilliman, The Khan and Corax against Dorn, Russ and Vulkan. However Imperial Armour 10 retconned Vulkan into being a strong Guilliman supporter. So technically Dorn and Russ are being outvoted here.
Galdos wrote:
You think they would have a problem with the Black Templars
The Index Astartes article notes that nobody can prove anything about the size of the Templars.
Galdos wrote:
1) No actually is is the UM combat doctrine. Guiliman wrote it DURING the Horus Heresy with the intention of spreading it to the other legions. It may have tactics used by the other chapters but it is the Ultarmarine's work. This means if you defy the the Codex, you are defying the Ultramarines. The other chapters could care less if they are defied sense they didnt make it. The UM would care however sense THEY made it.
I’m not sure why exactly they would care. If an Ultramarine successor was ignoring it then they might care, but why would they care if the Iron Hands or Space Wolves defy it?
Galdos wrote:
3) They actually were forced. Ancient Greece didnt open fire and attack the US and threaten all out war with them. The UM threated war and actually attacked the Imperial Fist when they refused to use the codex. Dorn, trying to prevent another Civil War, backed down. This meant that all the founding chapters were expected to follow it.
No, that was just about the size limits and breaking up the Legions. If everybody was forced at gunpoint to adopt every aspect of the Codex, then why do the Iron Hands and Salamanders have non-Codex elements? Why are the Space Wolves and Templars non-Codex then?
1) You are right, I guess they wouldnt actually care anymore. I was refering more to the fact that its the Ultramarines work, not the work of the other chapters.
3) They adobted them at later points or they are close enough? Studio mistakes? *shrugs* I dont know. That is a great question about the other two, why did they let them be non-codex yet before the Siege of Terra he was training his men to fight Salemanders and actually opened fire on the Imperial Fist to make sure he was listened too.
These could just be the signs of multiple writers not talking to each other properly
Galdos wrote:3) They adobted them at later points or they are close enough? Studio mistakes? *shrugs* I dont know. That is a great question about the other two, why did they let them be non-codex yet before the Siege of Terra he was training his men to fight Salemanders and actually opened fire on the Imperial Fist to make sure he was listened too.
These could just be the signs of multiple writers not talking to each other properly
I cannot pretend to understand what the Black Library authors are talking about. However in the original Index Astartes fluff, the only issue Dorn and Russ had was the breaking of the Legions. There was nothing recorded about combat doctrines.
I guess that is based in the various sources describing the Imperial Fists as very close adherents to the Codex doctrine, often even described as second only to the Ultramarines in that respect. Since you couldn't exactly say the same thing about any of the other First Founding Chapters, that was apparently not mandated and instead decided by Dorn on his own free will. Dorn was against dividing his Legion, but once that issue was dealt with, there was nothing more stopping him to embrace the Codex. Also "embracing the Codex" (a term which is used in the Imperial Fists' Index Astartes article) is a very positive terminology.
If Dorn hated the tactical and organization aspects of the Codex then he would simply change the Fists back to the non-Codex ways after Guilliman was interned in the stasis field. (Dorn having outlived all the other Primarchs)
Gree wrote:Because people like to hate the posterboy.
Right, and in addition to all that - all stuf that I said upstair. Maybe you are seeing it different but people are seeing it that, nothing can be done to help. Just read this:
Spoiler:
The Ultramarines have some of the most boring 1st founding histories for any Astartes Chapter in the Imperial history.
Circa M29: The Unification Wars. The Emperor of Mankind unites Terra, and sets off to conquer the stars in a series of violent and bloody battles. The Ultramarines’ Primarch, Roboute Guilliman (Nicknamed Rowboat Girlyman for being an utter gakker during the Heresy), is conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
969.M30: The Sacking of Monarchia. As part of the rebuke of Lorgar and the Word Bearers for spreading the Cult of the Lectitio Divinatus, the Emperor of Mankind orders the Ultramarines to destroy the city of Monarchia, which had exemplified the Word Bearers accomplishments. Following the sacking of the city, the Emperor orders Lorgar and the Word Bearers to kneel before Himself, Malcador the Sigilite, and Roboute Guilliman as they re-pledge themselves to the Great Crusade. His faith in the Emperor's divinity shattered, Lorgar is corrupted by First Captain Kor Phaeron and First Chaplain Erebus into worshipping the Chaos Gods. Meaning that the Ultramarines are partly responsible for...
012.M31-014.M31: The Horus Heresy. Nine of the twenty Space Marine legions, fully half of the Adeptus Mechanicus and numerous Imperial Guard regiments betray the Emperor of Mankind and turn to Chaos. Under the leadership of Warmaster Horus of the Sons of Horus, the traitors turn on their fellow Legions, causing serious losses. The Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard are nearly destroyed during the Drop Site Massacre of Isstvan V (including the death of Primarch Ferrus Manus and the disappearance of Primarch Vulkan), the Dark Angels lose their homeworld (and possibly their Primarch Lion El'Jonson) to renegade elements within their home planet A COMPLETELY RANDOM ACCIDENT AND NOT HERESY, while the Space Wolves are bogged down in a protracted battle with the Thousand Sons. Only the Blood Angels, Imperial Fists, and White Scars are able to return before the traitors lay Siege to Holy Terra, where they take serious losses (including the death of Primarch Sanguinius). The Emperor defeats Horus, causing the traitors to scatter, but is crippled and forced to ascend the Golden Throne. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs being trolled by the Word Bearers. After the Heresy, Rowboat Girlyman formed the High Lords of Terra and created the Codex Astartes as we know it today, including the separation of the 10,000 strong legions into 1,000 strong chapters. Note that the Ultramarines didn't participate in the defense of Terra, didn't sustain crippling damage to their Chapter's manpower, and note that, best of all, when they arrived they were too fething late. The war was already won, yet their primarch still was the first to create the new rules.
546.M32: 'The Beheading': The High Lords of Terra are all slain on the orders of Drakan Vangorich, Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum. The rogue Master of Assassins is tracked down and slain by a Space Marine strikeforce drawn from the Imperial Fists, Halo Brethren and Sable Swords. Of over a thousand men deployed, only a single Space Marine survives the campaign. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
843.M35: Distress call from Grendel's World investigated. Planet discovered to have been attacked and all inhabitants slain by terror tactics of the Night Lords. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
Early M36: The Age of Apostasy and the Reign of Blood begin. Warp storms increase dramatically and Chaos and Ork attacks multiply. The Imperium falls into turmoil. An empowered Ecclesiarchy becomes more tyrannical. High Lord Goge Vandire, Master of the Administratum, assumes the post of Ecclesiarch, becomes the most powerful member of the Senate of the High Lords of Terra, and manipulates a small sect, the Daughters of the Emperor (today the Sisters of Battle), into becoming his personal bodyguards, the Brides of the Emperor. Vandire rules largely unopposed and becomes more and more bloody and tyrannical. Zhoros, homeworld of the Fire Hawks' chapter, is thermal bombed. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
266.M36: Sebastian Thor is born on Dimmamar. He eventually becomes a threat to Vandire, who sends the Frateris Templar fleet to destroy Dimmamar. The fleet is completely destroyed by a warp storm, still in existence today, named the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath in the Clax system. Vandire's armies are finally defeated by combined forces of the Tech Guard and several chapters of Space Marines, organized under the banner of the Confederation of Light, led by Thor. Vandire is executed by Alicia Dominica, the leader of his own bodyguards, who reclaim their old name Daughters of the Emperor in a conspiracy involving the Adeptus Custodes and the Emperor himself. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
723.M36: The 5th Black Crusade begins. Doombreed, a deamon prince of Khorne, declares war on the Adeptus Astartes. The Warhawks and the Venerators are lost. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
995.M40-000.M41 The Macharian Crusades. Macharius, Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar, sets out to reconquer the Segmentum Pacificus for the Imperium. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
444.M41: First War for Armageddon. Chaos incursion led by Angron and his World Eaters beaten back by the Space Wolves and Grey Knights but only at a terrible cost. Only about a dozen of the Grey Knights survive the battle with Angron. The local planetary militia and the other citizens are mind-wiped, sterilized and put into work camps, to slave away for the rest of their short, miserable lives much to the horror of Logan Grimnar. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
742.M41 Damocles Crusade is launched against the Tau Empire, due to the Imperium's ever growing Xenophobia, a small, strategically insignificant piece of nothingness, inhabited by weak fish people with minimal Faster-Than-Light Technology. The Ultramarines are thoroughly defeated along with the rest of the Imperial forces. Those "aberrations" known as the Black Templars come in and beat the hell out of the Tau after the Ultramarines leave for the...
745.M41: First Tyrannic War. Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks the Ultramarines' homeworld, Macragge. Most of the chapter is eaten by Nids and lose their entire 1st company, the Chapter's company of hardened veterans and Terminators. The second fight they get and they still blew it, lulz.
754-775.M41: Sabbat Worlds Crusade. The Imperium deploys a massive force under Warmaster Slaydo to retake the Sabbat Worlds from the forces of Chaos. Several Space Marine chapters participate, including the White Scars and those "aberrations" called the Raven Guard and the Imperial Fists, eventually succeeding in driving Chaos from the sector. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
897.M41: Battle of Sanctuary 101. The Necrons attack the Adepta Sororitas at the fortress-convent of Sanctuary 101, with every sister slaughtered to the last woman, marking first contact between the Imperium and the Necrons. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
901-912.M41 Badab War. The Astral Claws, Lamenters, Executioners, and Mantis Warriors chapters rebel against the Imperium, and are defeated by loyalist chapters. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
941-942.M41: Second War for Armageddon. The Ultramarines bump into Waaagh! Ghazghull while running away from the Tyranids. They are saved by the timely intervention of Commissar Yarrick and the Blood Angels. Marneus Calgar's first action is to acknowledge Dante as overall commander of the Space Marines on Armageddon.
988.M41: The battle of Rynn's World begins. A large ork army, led by the Warboss Snagrod, attacks the Crimson Fists and their homeworld. During the battle, a stray missile strikes the Fortress-Monastery of the Crimson Fists, killing most of the Marines. The survivors are severely crippled and are forced to rebuild their chapter. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
757998.M41: The Third War for Armageddon begins. Having learned from past mistakes, Imperial Commanders commit a ridiculous amount of forces to hold the world. It drags on for months in a bloody stalemate until Ghazghull grows bored and leaves his generals to finish the fight while he goes looking for other worlds to conquer. Commissar Yarrick joins a Black Templars Crusade and gives chase. The Ultramarines are conveniently located on the other side of the galaxy when this occurs.
5999.M41: Warmaster Abaddon launches the 13th Black Crusade. The armies of Chaos Undivided lay siege primarily to Cadia but attack many of the surrounding worlds as well. Imperial Forces launch a massive counterattack, and eventually push back the tides of Chaos, but only just barely, and at great cost. The Space Wolves' 13th Company are amongst the forces seen fighting against the forces of Chaos. The Ultramarines were apparently man enough to get into the fighting... by offering some honor guard units that barely made up half a company. Yes, we're facepalming with you too.
As an additional note of interest, there stands reasonable evidence that the Ultramarines are partially responsible for unleashing the Nightbringer on the galaxy in the current age. On the planet Pavonis, it was brought to the attention of Uriel Ventris, of the 4th company of the Ultramarines, that a group of revolutionaries were digging their way straight to the Nightbringer's sarcophagus while the Dark Eldar rounded up the keys to unlock the thing. Uriel was given a choice: he could either exterminatus the planet, burying the Nightbringer, revolutionaries, and Dark Eldar all at once in a single fell swoop, or he could boost his own ego by making a balls-first attack on the excavation site with nothing but chain swords and bolters. Unfortunately for the entire galaxy, Uriel chose the latter of these options, lost the fight, and let the Nightbringer get free. Which in lay man's terms means that they made the single largest feth up to end all feth ups of all time. Oops...
Brother Coa wrote:
Right, and in addition to all that - all stuf that I said upstair. Maybe you are seeing it different but people are seeing it that, nothing can be done to help.
Just read this:
I assume you got that from 4chan? It’s funny, but mostly taken out of context or just flat out false in many parts. Anybodyu who has read the original fluff can tell you that.
Brother Coa wrote:Anyway - that is what people think about Ultramrines being wrong or right.
No, that is what 4chan thinks of the Ultramarines. If you have ever been to Warseer and Bolter and Chainsword, they don't exactly hold the majority opinion.
DarthSpader wrote:i think mainly it has to do with GW selecting the ultrasmurfs as the poster boy for the hobby. thus, any new players tend to go for the marines, (as these often star in demo games and painting lessons) simply because of the above, the fact they are "easy" to build, painting is also a touch simpler, and they are the "good guys" of the galaxy. the blue ones are also on the box covers, and so on, so obviously newer players who dont really have an idea for their own chapter will paint them blue. that and blue is a pretty easy color to paint. white,red,yellow etc all require multiple thin layers and are more complex to do right, then a 1 coat done blue.
this leads to a horde of 12-15 yr olds playing the ultra marines, and obviously they are less superioir in gaming then you - who has IG/GK/DE/eldar/chaos etc.... so they get looked down on.
a local saying here: "if you see a 13 yr old boy in a gaming store he's either playing yugioh or ultramarines"
i thnk it applies worldwide and no doubt is used on many other locations - because its true.
Then you should see our Facebook groups. Out of 2000 members I think 1500 don't like them at all. Same as with Dakka, we had thread about Ultras here some time ago, and the result was that many people find them boring or hate them. Rarely who respect them. Now mostly because of Matt and his "spiritual league" thing.
I think that they need to change poster chapter and redo the "greatest of them all" sentence since Ultramarines aren't greatest of them all at all.
Brother Coa wrote:Then you should see our Facebook groups. Out of 2000 members I think 1500 don't like them at all. Same as with Dakka, we had thread about Ultras here some time ago, and the result was that many people find them boring or hate them. Rarely who respect them. Now mostly because of Matt and his "spiritual league" thing.
I think that they need to change poster chapter and redo the "greatest of them all" sentence since Ultramarines aren't greatest of them all at all.
Yes removing that one sentence will fix it all. And while we are at it... all fans of sports teams need to stop proclaiming their teams are #1 ... since they are in fact, likely not.
Brother Coa wrote:Then you should see our Facebook groups. Out of 2000 members I think 1500 don't like them at all. Same as with Dakka, we had thread about Ultras here some time ago, and the result was that many people find them boring or hate them. Rarely who respect them. Now mostly because of Matt and his "spiritual league" thing.
I think that they need to change poster chapter and redo the "greatest of them all" sentence since Ultramarines aren't greatest of them all at all.
And who should that be? The Space Sues perhaps? The Emo Angels? Or perhaps the Rainbow Warriors? You can find much to complain about every single major spacemarine chapter.
The Ultramarines are the posterboys because they are the archetypical codex adherent chapter. Since most spacemarine chapters adhere to the codex, which was written by the Ultramarine's primarch,
this makes the Ultramarines ideal posterboys.
The Ultramarines fluff is, with a few exceptions ( the "but they can never be Ultramarines" part in the codex could have been written differently ) rather tame compared with the sheer amount of
idiocy we find in the Bloodangels, the Grey Knights and the Spacewolfes books.
I am not sure Tigurius's feat of sheer psy awesomeness is beat by anyone save Draigo as far as space marine feats go. The Sanguinor showing up and saving the day like cpt planet however might be close.
Ultramarines I think got hate because 1) they are pushed in the fluff which makes them "boring" 2) because they are pushed in the fluff they are a surrogate to hating on GW 3) for several editions they were the box or cam covetous so new players often played them and vets tease noobs
It's funny though, in 5th edition because of the arguable better MEQ armies than vanilla marines, and Vulkan and Lysander being the favorite of codex space marines you don't see nearly as many pure ultramarine armies these days. As a result I am often noticed and complimented on my fully painted pure ulatramarine army
Durza wrote:The major reason would be, as others have said, the fluff. It's hard to stay interesting when you are apparently the paragon of marines, and even harder with the sheer volume of fluff given to them. And besides that, in the current codex they have like five special characters. Too many.
Also, their name is a double pun. Bad.
Maze wrote: That's why I play SW. They're like the Batman of 40k.
Spoiler:
Why do you say space wolves but have a picture of a night lord?
I think ultramarines are disliked for their fluff and uninterestingness. Sure, a well painted ultramarine force can look good, but its really not that interesting.
He did not say the SW thing, Maze did. And he showed the picture because Night Lords are closer to Batman the Space Wolves.
"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer.
"Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer, Codex: Blood Angels, p. 7.
"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer (unfortunately), Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, p/ 25. (What, you thought we made this up ourselves? Also note that the Black Templars actually outnumber the Ultramarines at a ratio of at least 6:1)
It's not that I hate Ultramarines, it's what Mat Ward said about/did to them.
King Pariah wrote:"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer.
"Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer, Codex: Blood Angels, p. 7.
"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer (unfortunately), Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, p/ 25. (What, you thought we made this up ourselves? Also note that the Black Templars actually outnumber the Ultramarines at a ratio of at least 6:1)
It's not that I hate Ultramarines, it's what Mat Ward said about/did to them.
Actually Ward plays Necrons, not Space Marines, I heard.
The Ultramarines were described as "the greatest" Chapter since 2nd Edition. This is not Matt Ward's invention. Though he was not very delicate in describing that.
The Crusader wrote:Codex: Space Marines isn't that, Its Codex: ULTRASMURFS!!!!
Matt Ward=Ultramarine no. 1 Fanboy
Codex: Space Marines=Matt Ward given the opportunity to write a Codex that is to include Ultramarines.
You wonder why we hate Ultramarines? We hate them because we don't like Matt Ward trying to ram Blue SM w****rs down our damn throats thats why!
'S why I chose Templars:
Girlyman: "OK this is my Uber Control-Freak Book of Ultrasmurf Ass-kissing..."
Sigsmund: "......."
Takes his copy and fires it into a star.
I imagine it was not quite like that, considering that most of the Codex did not appear to be mandatory.
For me the hate towards them stem from how the Codex Space Marines looks like a crappy piece of propaganda. Also it all but states: "This is the Imperial Fist, Germanic perverts, we give them a nice nod, but we think of them as stubborn and stupid."
Sorry smurfs, the Fists is something you can never be, interesting.
Beaviz81 wrote:For me the hate towards them stem from how the Codex Space Marines looks like a crappy piece of propaganda. Also it all but states: "This is the Imperial Fist, Germanic perverts, we give them a nice nod, but we think of them as stubborn and stupid."
Sorry smurfs, the Fists is something you can never be, interesting.
Where is it stated that the Imperial Fists are stubborn and stupid in the Codex? More however the Fists being stubborn and intractable has always been a defining part of their character. Would you rather the Codex state that the Fists are not stubborn?
King Pariah wrote:"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer.
"Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer, Codex: Blood Angels, p. 7.
"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer (unfortunately), Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, p/ 25. (What, you thought we made this up ourselves? Also note that the Black Templars actually outnumber the Ultramarines at a ratio of at least 6:1)
It's not that I hate Ultramarines, it's what Mat Ward said about/did to them.
Actually Ward plays Necrons, not Space Marines, I heard.
The Ultramarines were described as "the greatest" Chapter since 2nd Edition. This is not Matt Ward's invention. Though he was not very delicate in describing that.
The Crusader wrote:Codex: Space Marines isn't that, Its Codex: ULTRASMURFS!!!!
Matt Ward=Ultramarine no. 1 Fanboy
Codex: Space Marines=Matt Ward given the opportunity to write a Codex that is to include Ultramarines.
You wonder why we hate Ultramarines? We hate them because we don't like Matt Ward trying to ram Blue SM w****rs down our damn throats thats why!
'S why I chose Templars:
Girlyman: "OK this is my Uber Control-Freak Book of Ultrasmurf Ass-kissing..."
Sigsmund: "......."
Takes his copy and fires it into a star.
I imagine it was not quite like that, considering that most of the Codex did not appear to be mandatory.
And I have a strong dislike for what he did to Crons as well. But I don't see how him playing Crons makes any difference or justify anything about the Ultramarines he said or did. I'm okay with them being the Imperium poster boys, hell, it makes sense considering they suffered the least casualties in the HH hence why many people would know them in the 40k universe. It's when you start saying stuff like "Oh, everyone aspires to be like Ultramarines but can never be them, or that chapters divergent to the codex astartes are clinging on for survival (definitely not true with Black Templars).
Gree wrote:
Actually Ward plays Necrons, not Space Marines, I heard.
Ward played with Necrons unti lhe was beat by ultramrine player in 3'rd edition. Now he is playing Ultramarines.
The Ultramarines were described as "the greatest" Chapter since 2nd Edition. This is not Matt Ward's invention. Though he was not very delicate in describing that.
I very much doubt that, if Ultramariens are "greatest of them all" then what are Grey Knights and Custodes?
Gree wrote:
Actually Ward plays Necrons, not Space Marines, I heard.
Ward played with Necrons unti lhe was beat by ultramrine player in 3'rd edition. Now he is playing Ultramarines.
The Ultramarines were described as "the greatest" Chapter since 2nd Edition. This is not Matt Ward's invention. Though he was not very delicate in describing that.
I very much doubt that, if Ultramariens are "greatest of them all" then what are Grey Knights and Custodes?
Well the gk as per the new dex states that the emperor felt he needed a force to fight chaos and be resistant to their charms. yada yada yada.. It never states they were the greatest sm. All it says is theyre designed to fight chaos.
King Pariah wrote:I imagine it was not quite like that, considering that most of the Codex did not appear to be mandatory.
And I have a strong dislike for what he did to Crons as well. But I don't see how him playing Crons makes any difference or justify anything about the Ultramarines he said or did. I'm okay with them being the Imperium poster boys, hell, it makes sense considering they suffered the least casualties in the HH hence why many people would know them in the 40k universe. It's when you start saying stuff like "Oh, everyone aspires to be like Ultramarines but can never be them, or that chapters divergent to the codex astartes are clinging on for survival (definitely not true with Black Templars).
Well, Ward is essentially just rephrasing poorly an earlier statement. His worse offense was the White Dwarf interview.
Read the following statements and see whether they may actually amount to the same. One of them is canonical since the earliest days of 2nd Edition and has never bothered anyone, the other one was made in a frivolous manner in a magazine article.
"Most Chapters adhere largely to the tenets of the Codex Astartes, with only a few rare examples deviating completely from it."
and
"All Chapters want to be like the Ultramarines."
Can you see a similarity? It is like saying either "the Space Wolves are one of the most active Chapters and have distinguished themselves in many battles" and "the Space Wolves kick a lot of xeno butt."
Brother Coa wrote:
Gree wrote:
Actually Ward plays Necrons, not Space Marines, I heard.
Ward played with Necrons unti lhe was beat by ultramrine player in 3'rd edition. Now he is playing Ultramarines.
The Ultramarines were described as "the greatest" Chapter since 2nd Edition. This is not Matt Ward's invention. Though he was not very delicate in describing that.
I very much doubt that, if Ultramariens are "greatest of them all" then what are Grey Knights and Custodes?
"(...) As fate would have it, the Ultramarines were therefor largely untouched by the fighting of the Horus Heresy. Other loyal Space Marine Legion had lost thousands of troops during the fighting, and half of the original Legions had sided with Horus. As a result the number of Space Marines left was very few, yet never were they more needed.
Everywhere the enemies of mankind prepared to attack. Many worlds remained in the grip of Chaos. Into this breach stepped Roboute Guilliman and the Ultramarines. Always the largest Legion, the Ultramarines found themselves divided and dispatched all over the Imperium in a desparate effort to stem the tide of the unrest.
The Ultramarines successfully held the Imperium together during a time of intense danger. Macragge was able to supply new recruits at such a rate that before long the Ultramarines alone accounted for more than half the total number of Space Marines, and few were the systems where their heroism went unnoticed."- 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 13
There are worlds that have legends of Leman Russ and his wolf warriors. There are worlds that tell legends of noble Sanguinius. But the deeds of Guilliman and the Ultramarines are known almost throughout the entire Imperium.
That was in part due to fate, as the Ultramarines simple had the manpower to fulfill that role during the scouring. But then it was the same fatefull circumstances that had them miss out on the Battle for Terra. And one could say that it was not so much fate, but due to a ploy by Horus. Also, Guilliman's recruitment system seemed to have helped their efforts a great deal, so it can be at least in part attributed to their own traits. If you are an Imperial Official, you might know that most Marine chapters follow the Codex Astartes and that Guilliman wrote that. Guilliman also reorganized the Guard and Navy, so if you are a Guard and Navy officer you might know about Guilliman’s works more than Vulkan or Corax.
Meanwhile the Grey Knights are mean to be super-secret and the Custodes are technically not Marines.
So it is not really fallacious to say that in the view of the majority of the Imperium the Ultramarines Legion was the most legendary.
King Pariah wrote:^That, and Custodes aren't marines...
You are right - they are advanced version of Space Marines - even better then Ultramarines.
That I'll agree with, as seen with the culling of the Thunder Warrior which the Custodes were the only ones capable of doing after the Emperor conquered Terra.
Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.
Saying that Ultramarine is better in combat then Grey Knight or Adeptus Custodes is playing stupid.
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King Pariah wrote:^That, and Custodes aren't marines...
You are right - they are advanced version of Space Marines - even better then Ultramarines.
Except that custodes are trained for 1 on 1 fights not open warfare. GK use shock troops squad based battles which is not typical of open warfare. Smurfs would have much more exp conducting open warefare even if 1 on 1 were inferior.
Gree. The crappy part about the Imperial Fists. They hold on to a position even when losses mounts due to them being so stubborn. Still I care as much for the Smurfs as much as I care for the Tau, both I regard with a yawn, then I tosses the book out of the window and forget everything I have learned about them.
Beaviz81 wrote:Gree. The crappy part about the Imperial Fists. They hold on to a position even when losses mounts due to them being so stubborn.
That part was from Index Astartes Imperial Fists, the Fists’s own article. The Codex was simply rephrasing it. Is the Fists’ own articles now propaganda?
Whatever Gree, I don't really care much to discuss this. Boring much you know, and I stated what rankled me the most with the Smurfs, I really doesn't care if that was liked or not.
Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.
I'd disagree on both points. Salamanders are more civil, regularly interacting with humanity on a personal level.
And the Ultramarines have a problem in which they get into situations where they stubbornly adhere to the Codex Astartes, which can cause rifts within the ranks or complete disasters.
Beaviz81 wrote:Whatever Gree, I don't really care much to discuss this. Boring much you know, and I stated what rankled me the most with the Smurfs, I really doesn't care if that was liked or not.
Well it’s one thing it dislike the Ultramarines, it’s another to dislike them for a nonexistent reason or a reason taken out of context from an entirely separate piece of fluff.
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infinite_array wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.
I'd disagree on both points. Salamanders are more civil, regularly interacting with humanity on a personal level.
And the Ultramarines have a problem in which they get into situations where they stubbornly adhere to the Codex Astartes, which can cause rifts within the ranks or complete disasters.
I’m not sure how the latter would cause problems with interacting with the civilian government. I assume you are referring to the latter as part of McNeill’s works. I take those books with a grain of salt, personally since they contain many contradictions to previously established fluff.
Ah, sorry. The second part was referring to the 'tactical' aspect. I wouldn't consider it good 'tactics' to have your Battle-Brothers tattling on you after you just saved their genehanced butts.
infinite_array wrote:Ah, sorry. The second part was referring to the 'tactical' aspect. I wouldn't consider it good 'tactics' to have your Battle-Brothers tattling on you after you just saved their genehanced butts.
I assume you are referring to Leandros reporting Titus? That really has little to do with tactics, it's more like internal police.
Honestly, I go off from 'Mr. Ultramarine' himself, Graham McNeil. Sure, they're BL books, but we still get plenty of examples where someone argues against an action being taken, because it goes against the Codex.
infinite_array wrote:Honestly, I go off from 'Mr. Ultramarine' himself, Graham McNeil. Sure, they're BL books, but we still get plenty of examples where someone argues against an action being taken, because it goes against the Codex.
Well that’s the problem, I honestly consider McNeill to be a very poor writer of the Ultramarines, honestly worse than Ward himself. Frankly I can point out many aspects of his novels that violate studio fluff or simply make no sense.
Sorry I think highly of McNeill for his work with the Ultramarines. He puts them in their place. "The Chapter's Due" Is a great example in my eyes as it shows the limits (read stupidity) of the Codex Astrates, makes some of the superior special characters actually human like with weaknesses (making them to be better characters because they have flaws) and gave credit to other chapters where credit was due like the Raven Guard.
I mean I guess everyone has their own opinion. Just so weird to me.
I was actually hoping not to discuss that, as that’s not quite on topic, but I’ll support my opinions.
We don't know what is in the Codex Astartes. What we know is that the Ultramarines have been strictly following its tenets for the past 10,000 years. And we know that the Ultramarines are one of the (if not the) most successful Chapters for the past 10,000 years.
From this I would conclude that there is perhaps a correlation, and that what the Codex suggests has its merit. There is also the fact that the Codex includes doctrines of not just one but several Primarchs, compiled and collected by one Primarch who had a thing for studying such things. That would support my conclusion, I would say.
The other point of view is that the Codex will sometimes tell you to do things wrong. That would kind of mean that the Ultramarines have been so successful inspite of their strict adherence to the Codex, and not because of it. It would also mean that often times, a Space Marine commander is smarter than a Primarch.
And I am very dismayed by the notion that the codex practices in the cases of Uriels breaches would supposedly not have led to victory. How did the Ultramarines even survive that long if they cling to the teachings of a dusty old book detached from actual battlefield practices and apparently unviable in a lot of situations? It is an inconsistent handling of Ultramarine background.
I have no problem with the notion that the Codex Astartes cannot tell you everything. It would be implausible to expect that. No situation will be like a previous one 100%, so most battle descriptions in the Codex Astartes can only give examples and make suggestions, but they cannot tell you how to conduct an entire planetary campaign from step one to the final blow, based on the exact situation and enemy dispositions you are dealing with. Unfortunately, the latter is exactly how Graham McNeill describes the Codex to work in "Rules of Engagement".
I have not served. But when a supposed military genius writes doctrines in a manner so that they would make strict suggestions even in situations where the conditions might be completely different, then that is just not plausible to me. If the Chapter strictly adhering to such a restrictive set of rules can be one of the most successfull Chapters for ten thousand years, then that is just nor plausible to me. McNeill's Codex Astartes is not just bad because it conflicts with other descriptions of the Codex and it's value, it is bad because the concept he describes is not the least bit plausible. That mission parameters might change and then need a different approach is basic stuff.
Virtually all of his examples where the Codex fails are terribly contrived.
Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.
Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.
Note quite accurate at all, considering the only main battle they fought the Ultramarines against was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.
But whatever the Alpha Legion were ten thousand years ago, at least some of them are definite Chaos Marines, such as Voldorius, summoning daemons, bearing chaos mutations and killing loyalist Imperial servants.
Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.
Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.
Note quite accurate at all, considering the main battle they fought in was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.
Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.
Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.
Note quite accurate at all, considering the main battle they fought in was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.
A piece of propaganda which they won
Well, that’s the point of propaganda, to portray your side as best. Except it’s questioned by many in the Inquisition and the Imperium.
Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.
Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.
Note quite accurate at all, considering the main battle they fought in was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.
A piece of propaganda which they won
Well, that’s the point of propaganda, to portray your side as best. Except it’s questioned by many in the Inquisition and the Imperium.
No, the death of Alpharius in the battle is questioned by everyone, including the Ultramarines. The battle itself was a decisive victory for the Legion.
Brother Coa wrote:Ultramarines are best i one regard: they are the most civil and tactical Marines in the Imeperium.
Well, actually the Alpha Legion are in the Imperium right now, and their tactics consistently beat the Ultramarines.
Note quite accurate at all, considering the main battle they fought in was noted by the article itself to be possible a piece of Alpha Legion propaganda.
A piece of propaganda which they won
Well, that’s the point of propaganda, to portray your side as best. Except it’s questioned by many in the Inquisition and the Imperium.
No, the death of Alpharius in the battle is questioned by everyone, including the Ultramarines. The battle itself was a decisive victory for the Legion.
The entire battle was noted to be questioned. In fact right at the start of the article we have this:
Following the Horus Heresy, thousands of records, archives and libraries were destroyed to purge ad mention, indeed any memory, of the traitors. Ten millennia later there are now billions of Imperial citizens who remain unaware that the rebellion ever happened. However, a few tomes survived, mostly in the hands of those in high authority or heretics whose loyalties still remained undiscovered. It is from these works that historians and Inquisitors have gleaned their knowledge of those ancient times. Of course, shifting out the truth is never easy, because most books are copies of copies or simply forgeries filled with lies.
In the case of the Alpha Legion, reliable facts are even harder to come by, as the legion was notoriously secretive. For example - unlike most of the First Founding Legions of the Adeptus Astartes, the Alpha Legion's home world is unknown. The reason for this omission is unclear, but Inquisitor Kravin of the Ordo Malleus has recently unearthed an ancient journal that he claims provides an account of the first contact with, and recovery of, the legions' Primarch. Kravin has estimated the veracity of this journal at 62.6%, but has so far refused to produce it for independent examination.
-IA Alpha Legion
Kravin was later accused of being an Alpha Legion agent. But one of the key themes of the Alpha Legion is that everything about the Legion is wrapped in doubt and mystery.
... except that battle was reported by the Ultramarines to the Imperium, not the Alpha Legion. The mystery is whether that it was indeed Alpharius who died. The battle itself definitely happened, and the Alpha Legion definitely won, despite their losses.
Durza wrote:... except that battle was reported by the Ultramarines to the Imperium, not the Alpha Legion. The mystery is whether that it was indeed Alpharius who died. The battle itself definitely happened, and the Alpha Legion definitely won, despite their losses.
No they did not report it. It was stated some sort of battle happened, but the actual account was given by Kravin, the suspected Alpha Legion agent.
The following account appears to be the personal log of a member of the Ultramarines strike force, probably a sergeant. It is included in Inquisitor Kravin's diatribe 'Lessons of Strife', though other Inquisitors and representatives of the Ultramarines themselves have questioned its validity. The original document was purportedly discovered in a system earth-ward of Eskrador.
It then goes on to describe the actual battle and the tactics involved.
At which Guilliman was present. The account of the battle may be flawed, but there's no denying that it happened, and Guilliman would have said something about it if there was an inquisitor claiming he lost a battle that he actually won.
Durza wrote:At which Guilliman was present. The account of the battle may be flawed, but there's no denying that it happened, and Guilliman would have said something about it if there was an inquisitor claiming he lost a battle that he actually won.
No, which Guilliman was supposedly present at. You forget the context of the investigation. The Index Astartes article is about a bunch of Inquisitors in the modern day Imperium investigating a battle that allegedly happened ten thousand years ago. Guilliman is in the stasis field and his sons and questioning the entire account of the battle, not just Alpharius's death.
Maybe the Alpha Legion did fight the Ultramarines then. But that does not necessarily mean they won or the battle happened anyway like it was described.
And a single, murky battle does not qualify as ‘’consistently beating’’ the Ultramarines.
Sorry I think highly of McNeill for his work with the Ultramarines. He puts them in their place. "The Chapter's Due" Is a great example in my eyes as it shows the limits (read stupidity) of the Codex Astrates, makes some of the superior special characters actually human like with weaknesses (making them to be better characters because they have flaws) and gave credit to other chapters where credit was due like the Raven Guard.
I mean I guess everyone has their own opinion. Just so weird to me.
McNeill doens't "put them in their place" or "show the limits of the Codex Astartes". He just writes bad books about the Ultramarines. His descriptions of the Codex are very poorly researched, and make no sense. The Codex Astartes isn't an "If A, then B" instruction manual for warfighting that would allow enemies to predict what opposing commanders would do. It's a stupid idea created by an author who didn't do enough research into existing tomes of military strategy and theory to create a viable and believable counterpart in the 40K universe.
Fortunately I've collected all of my past replies on this kind of topic. So here it is: "The True Reasons Some People Hate the Ultramarines"
Like I've explained in other post on other 40K forums in the past, the Ultramarines hate has been amusing to watch evolve, coming from a player whose earliest experiences with the game come from the Rogue Trader era rules in the early nineties. Years ago, in the long long ago of 40K, they were just called "boring". They were boring because their 2nd Edition list wasn't rife with fancy special units and overpowered special characters like the Space Wolves or Blood Angels (or heck, any of the increasingly over-powered codexes that came out like the original Codex: Chaos which allowed you to create Chaos Lords of all four Chaos Gods with a Weapon Skill of 10, lol).
Then people hated them because Games Workshop chose to make the Ultramarines their default, flagship chapter. Games Workshop chose them for a few reasons. There was a "Big Four" in 40K at the time. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Out of those four, the Ultramarines were the only ones that didn't need any additional explanation. If you know what a Marine is in the real world, then you can imagine them 38,000 years in the future, and the Ultramarines look kinda like what you'd expect. No need to explain why they look like furry space vikings with fangs. No need to explain why they wear hoodie bathrobes and act emo. No need to explain why they have fangs and drink blood. The Ultramarines are just big dudes in big armor with big guns. However, because the Ultramarines were "boring", and the more vocal 40K players are, as a general rule, a rather unmanly and nerdy sort, prone to a sort of jealousy when their favorite color of plastic toy soldiers aren't given their due attention, the hate began to brew against the blue ones. But it was still mostly due to the idea that they were "boring" and "why not my favorite color of toy soldier?" feelings.
The 5th Edition didn't really help. Matt Ward and crew took a bunch of stories about the Ultramarines that already existed, wrote a couple new ones (none of which are any sillier than those written for other factions), and then finally explained why Rick Priestley had called the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (Back Cover, Codex: Ultramarines, 1995). The whole "spiritual liege" actually makes sense, when you realize it only refers to the Codex Chapters descended from the Ultramarines. More than sixty percent of Space Marine chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Either directly, as is the case with the 250 or so Second Founding Ultra successors, or because they were made using the Ultramarines gene seed because it is the least flawed, and the most often used when creating new chapters. All of those chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, and the closest thing they have to a Primarch would be Guilliman, and if they are going to look to their heritage and take pride in the actions of Space Marines of the past, then the Ultramarines are the ones they are closest akin to. In the case of the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines actually were Ultramarines during the Great Crusade and Scouring, so it makes perfect sense that they might consider themselves Ultramarines in all but name.
The whole line about "they can never be Ultramarines" is a bit over the top and referred to the other Codex Chapters descended from other than Ultramarines stock. However, the "spiritual liege" portion only ever applied to the Codex Chapters directly descended from the Ultramarines. This part gets lost in the nerd raging. It never referred to the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. It merely said that those chapters recognize the wisdom and value of the Codex Astartes and admire Guilliman's work. But, again, when you have misdirected nerd rage like that which typically is reserved for the Ultramarines, facts are irrelevant.
Anyway, take that bit of wisdom from an old 40K player who has watched the game evolve for almost 20 years. My Space Marines have been several different colors. Black, and then dark blue, and then red, and back to blue. I have no real bias towards the Ultramarines. I look at a group of Marines who would be the absolute top of their game, guided by this tome of military knowledge and wisdom that is like combining Sun Tzu and Clausewitz and all the other military geniuses of history rolled into one, and that seems pretty cool. I don't subscribe to the silly and idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual like McNeil scribbled about in his messy Ultramarines series of books because it doesn't make any damned sense. But, then again, I was a Marine in real life, so a lot of the strategy and tactics written by the Black Library "authors" seems a bit silly to me.
Further on to the concept of the Codex Astartes (or: "Why Graham McNeill writes terrible books about the Ultramarines"):
To beat a general steeped in the Codex, you'd need to know the Codex yourself. You'd need to know a counter strategy for the maneuver you felt they were going to use, and yet the Codex would have notations in it to predict, detect, and deal with that counter strategy. That's why it can't possibly lend itself to predictability, because it has hundreds of pages on every possible scenario. The better commander will win because he applies what he knows of warfare to the forces, terrain, environment, and enemy at hand. There's just no way the Codex would just have a list of instructions for every possible configuration of those variables. To beat a Space Marine Commander using the Codex, you'd have to be... a master of the Codex yourself, lol. There's been suggestion that it's silly to write a book about fighting wars, because then your opponent could read it. Guess what, all that knowledge is out there today too. Reading the Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, contemporary warfighting pubs, etc doesn't make you a master of warfare. You have to be able to understand it and apply it in battle still. The Codex does not give the general a formula for winning battles, only the kinds of advice, wisdom, and collected experience to use when making their own decisions. The general still wins the battle by out thinking his opponent. Alpharius believed that knowing the Codex would allow him to easily predict the Ultramarines' maneuvers, and it cost him his life (most likely) when Guilliman surprised him. The Codex is definitely one of the most misunderstood things about the 40K universe. But if you don't get it, don't feel bad, you're game players, not military strategists. Even Graham McNeill, writer of Ultramarines novels, doesn't understand how it would work, lol. It has many parts. It lays down not just strategy and tactics, but also organizational elements, most notably the breakdown of chapters and companies, but also other mundane stuff like recruitment, indoctrination, training regimens, iconography, etc. The parts of the Codex that Russ railed against were the organizational parts. He didn't want to split his legion up. It wasn't like he was such an idiot he said "I'm going to ignore all of this collected military strategy!" It was similar to the others who were initially reluctant to follow the Codex's tenets. Realize that being "Codex adherent", or "following the Codex" means following the logistical breakdown of the chapter and company structure. Not being a Codex Chapter doesn't mean that the chapter also ignores the military teachings.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Crusader wrote:Codex: Space Marines isn't that, Its Codex: ULTRASMURFS!!!!
Well, let's be realistic here. Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex: Ultramarines, dating back to 1993 when it was actually called Codex: Ultramarines. GW changed the name to Codex: Space Marines in 3rd Edition for marketing reasons because when it was called Codex: Ultramarines new players didn't always know what codex to buy to play "regular" Space Marines.
However, the painting articles in C:SM have always been how to paint Ultramarines (heck, the painting article in the 4th Edition Codex was actually titled "How to Paint Ultramarines" lol), and the Ultramarines have always had the preponderance of Special Characters in those books, long before Mat Ward touched them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, the most amusing part of the whole Ultramarines hate is that in C:SM:3E, it actually contains a small fluff story about Calgar and the Ultramarines that pokes fun of the neckbeard 40K players for hating them.
"But fame and glory ever begets jealousy, and these heroic tales... have earned him and his brethren many high ranking enemies".
Even the authors over at GW make fun at people who irrationally hate the Ultramarines.
Normally, tl;dr.
But I now have a newfound respect for the Ultramarines. While I would not play them myself, I do see the appeal of playing them to some degree.
I'm still biased towards xenos though
I think it's mostly to do with the fact that, as stated, fluff tends to say they're the best, that they're the poster boys so the younglings collect them and so tend to be associated with naive 12+ year olds, and that they're simply too common a sight for some people.
I personally don't have a problem with the players or the models, it's the fluff and the attitude of the player that annoys me.
Ultramarines are the generic, good at everything best at nothing chapter, not best at everything. And the 4ft, high pitched thing proclaiming that marneus calgar could destroy anything and everything if he wanted bugs me as well.
/rant
-They are stupidly overpowered and most Space Marine fluff is going toward them, totally ignoring other Chapters and their battles.
-They miss some of the most important events in the galaxy because their empire is situated on the other side of the galaxy ( Vandire's war, Armageddon War, Black Crusades, Badab War... )
-Their major characters are OP as hell ( Calgar being able to beat Avatar of Khaine in close combat with one punch and Varro Tigurius rumored to be able to tap to Hive Mind ).
-They are always taking credit after winning battle, especially from Imperial Guard.
-The most important reason why they are hated is breaking down Legions into Chapters. Space Wolves, Imperial Fists and others would never forget them doing that.
-In most resent times they are hated because of Matt Ward and his: "They are so awesome that every other Marine in the galaxy want's to be Ultramarine".
Somebody's been reading too much 1d4chan and taking it seriously.
I mean, really? Hating the Ultramarines for not taking part in every battle ever mentioned in 40K? And then at the same time hating them for saying that they are mentioned in too many battles? You do understand how stupid that sounds right?
And the stories about Calgar are no sillier than the ones about, say, Mephiston, or other SM characters. Special Characters are supposed to be a little absurd at times. All Space Marines take credit after winning battles over the Guard. Or do they? That seems to be something made up by the Imperial Guard, not ever actually mentioned in any fluff.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Fortunately I've collected all of my past replies on this kind of topic. So here it is: "The True Reasons Some People Hate the Ultramarines"
Like I've explained in other post on other 40K forums in the past, the Ultramarines hate has been amusing to watch evolve, coming from a player whose earliest experiences with the game come from the Rogue Trader era rules in the early nineties. Years ago, in the long long ago of 40K, they were just called "boring". They were boring because their 2nd Edition list wasn't rife with fancy special units and overpowered special characters like the Space Wolves or Blood Angels (or heck, any of the increasingly over-powered codexes that came out like the original Codex: Chaos which allowed you to create Chaos Lords of all four Chaos Gods with a Weapon Skill of 10, lol).
Then people hated them because Games Workshop chose to make the Ultramarines their default, flagship chapter. Games Workshop chose them for a few reasons. There was a "Big Four" in 40K at the time. Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and Ultramarines. Out of those four, the Ultramarines were the only ones that didn't need any additional explanation. If you know what a Marine is in the real world, then you can imagine them 38,000 years in the future, and the Ultramarines look kinda like what you'd expect. No need to explain why they look like furry space vikings with fangs. No need to explain why they wear hoodie bathrobes and act emo. No need to explain why they have fangs and drink blood. The Ultramarines are just big dudes in big armor with big guns. However, because the Ultramarines were "boring", and the more vocal 40K players are, as a general rule, a rather unmanly and nerdy sort, prone to a sort of jealousy when their favorite color of plastic toy soldiers aren't given their due attention, the hate began to brew against the blue ones. But it was still mostly due to the idea that they were "boring" and "why not my favorite color of toy soldier?" feelings.
The 5th Edition didn't really help. Matt Ward and crew took a bunch of stories about the Ultramarines that already existed, wrote a couple new ones (none of which are any sillier than those written for other factions), and then finally explained why Rick Priestley had called the Ultramarines the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" (Back Cover, Codex: Ultramarines, 1995). The whole "spiritual liege" actually makes sense, when you realize it only refers to the Codex Chapters descended from the Ultramarines. More than sixty percent of Space Marine chapters are descended from the Ultramarines. Either directly, as is the case with the 250 or so Second Founding Ultra successors, or because they were made using the Ultramarines gene seed because it is the least flawed, and the most often used when creating new chapters. All of those chapters are descended from the Ultramarines, and the closest thing they have to a Primarch would be Guilliman, and if they are going to look to their heritage and take pride in the actions of Space Marines of the past, then the Ultramarines are the ones they are closest akin to. In the case of the Second Founding chapters, their first Marines actually were Ultramarines during the Great Crusade and Scouring, so it makes perfect sense that they might consider themselves Ultramarines in all but name.
The whole line about "they can never be Ultramarines" is a bit over the top and referred to the other Codex Chapters descended from other than Ultramarines stock. However, the "spiritual liege" portion only ever applied to the Codex Chapters directly descended from the Ultramarines. This part gets lost in the nerd raging. It never referred to the Imperial Fists, Salamanders, etc. It merely said that those chapters recognize the wisdom and value of the Codex Astartes and admire Guilliman's work. But, again, when you have misdirected nerd rage like that which typically is reserved for the Ultramarines, facts are irrelevant.
Anyway, take that bit of wisdom from an old 40K player who has watched the game evolve for almost 20 years. My Space Marines have been several different colors. Black, and then dark blue, and then red, and back to blue. I have no real bias towards the Ultramarines. I look at a group of Marines who would be the absolute top of their game, guided by this tome of military knowledge and wisdom that is like combining Sun Tzu and Clausewitz and all the other military geniuses of history rolled into one, and that seems pretty cool. I don't subscribe to the silly and idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual like McNeil scribbled about in his messy Ultramarines series of books because it doesn't make any damned sense. But, then again, I was a Marine in real life, so a lot of the strategy and tactics written by the Black Library "authors" seems a bit silly to me.
Further on to the concept of the Codex Astartes (or: "Why Graham McNeill writes terrible books about the Ultramarines"):
To beat a general steeped in the Codex, you'd need to know the Codex yourself. You'd need to know a counter strategy for the maneuver you felt they were going to use, and yet the Codex would have notations in it to predict, detect, and deal with that counter strategy. That's why it can't possibly lend itself to predictability, because it has hundreds of pages on every possible scenario. The better commander will win because he applies what he knows of warfare to the forces, terrain, environment, and enemy at hand. There's just no way the Codex would just have a list of instructions for every possible configuration of those variables. To beat a Space Marine Commander using the Codex, you'd have to be... a master of the Codex yourself, lol. There's been suggestion that it's silly to write a book about fighting wars, because then your opponent could read it. Guess what, all that knowledge is out there today too. Reading the Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, contemporary warfighting pubs, etc doesn't make you a master of warfare. You have to be able to understand it and apply it in battle still. The Codex does not give the general a formula for winning battles, only the kinds of advice, wisdom, and collected experience to use when making their own decisions. The general still wins the battle by out thinking his opponent. Alpharius believed that knowing the Codex would allow him to easily predict the Ultramarines' maneuvers, and it cost him his life (most likely) when Guilliman surprised him. The Codex is definitely one of the most misunderstood things about the 40K universe. But if you don't get it, don't feel bad, you're game players, not military strategists. Even Graham McNeill, writer of Ultramarines novels, doesn't understand how it would work, lol. It has many parts. It lays down not just strategy and tactics, but also organizational elements, most notably the breakdown of chapters and companies, but also other mundane stuff like recruitment, indoctrination, training regimens, iconography, etc. The parts of the Codex that Russ railed against were the organizational parts. He didn't want to split his legion up. It wasn't like he was such an idiot he said "I'm going to ignore all of this collected military strategy!" It was similar to the others who were initially reluctant to follow the Codex's tenets. Realize that being "Codex adherent", or "following the Codex" means following the logistical breakdown of the chapter and company structure. Not being a Codex Chapter doesn't mean that the chapter also ignores the military teachings.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Crusader wrote:Codex: Space Marines isn't that, Its Codex: ULTRASMURFS!!!!
Well, let's be realistic here. Codex: Space Marines has always been Codex: Ultramarines, dating back to 1993 when it was actually called Codex: Ultramarines. GW changed the name to Codex: Space Marines in 3rd Edition for marketing reasons because when it was called Codex: Ultramarines new players didn't always know what codex to buy to play "regular" Space Marines.
However, the painting articles in C:SM have always been how to paint Ultramarines (heck, the painting article in the 4th Edition Codex was actually titled "How to Paint Ultramarines" lol), and the Ultramarines have always had the preponderance of Special Characters in those books, long before Mat Ward touched them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, the most amusing part of the whole Ultramarines hate is that in C:SM:3E, it actually contains a small fluff story about Calgar and the Ultramarines that pokes fun of the neckbeard 40K players for hating them.
"But fame and glory ever begets jealousy, and these heroic tales... have earned him and his brethren many high ranking enemies".
Even the authors over at GW make fun at people who irrationally hate the Ultramarines.
This is the best reply to UM hate that I have seen.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Somebody's been reading too much 1d4chan and taking it seriously.
I mean, really? Hating the Ultramarines for not taking part in every battle ever mentioned in 40K? And then at the same time hating them for saying that they are mentioned in too many battles? You do understand how stupid that sounds right?
And the stories about Calgar are no sillier than the ones about, say, Mephiston, or other SM characters. Special Characters are supposed to be a little absurd at times. All Space Marines take credit after winning battles over the Guard. Or do they? That seems to be something made up by the Imperial Guard, not ever actually mentioned in any fluff.
I do not hate Ultramarines, they are my 3'rd favorite Chapter after Blood Ravens and Black Templars. ( see below my name )
I am just listed the responses from my friends why they hate Ultramarines.
And we need more guys like Gree, who will defend this chapter and stay with him in this dire times for them.
Warrior Squirrel wrote:Ultramarines are to perfect. They are portrayed as the perfect chapter without faults. And that almost all Ultramarines are boring as feth. Just look at Captain Titus and Uriel. Boring souless mommies boys.
Maybe this is my inner child pulling my head gravy around, but that's precisely what I like about them. I want my futuristic and perfect space men to be perfect. I don't want them to have flaws, I don't want them to be wolves in armour, or vampires. The shades-of-grey imperfections are for the Inquisition. At least in my mind. I collect Ultramarines for that reason, religious nutters al a BT, but civilised.
I meant that that they are boring. They have no story exept being perfect, they have no personality exept being perfect. Every single Ultramarine is the same.
Gree wrote:
We don't know what is in the Codex Astartes. What we know is that the Ultramarines have been strictly following its tenets for the past 10,000 years. And we know that the Ultramarines are one of the (if not the) most successful Chapters for the past 10,000 years.
HAHA, no. The Black Templars Outnumber them 6+:1 We also have a larger fleet, we aren't rooted to a single position that doesn't move much (our fortress monestry is on the Eternal Crusader) The Salamders interact more and are generally more empathetic to the Human race. You find me a Ultra smurf chaplain that held a Hive for 30+ days against a Ork horde that "Stretched out to the horizon" with titans, made an Imperator Titan stand and fight, then rescuing said titan after leaping from a thunderhawk. Then fighting off an ork horde in CQB before being crushed by a cathederal. THEN CLAWING HIS WAY OUT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T FEEL LIKE DYING YET!
Didn't think so. If you doubt that a single chaplain did that read Helsreach.
Gree wrote:
We don't know what is in the Codex Astartes. What we know is that the Ultramarines have been strictly following its tenets for the past 10,000 years. And we know that the Ultramarines are one of the (if not the) most successful Chapters for the past 10,000 years.
HAHA, no. The Black Templars Outnumber them 6+:1 We also have a larger fleet, we aren't rooted to a single position that doesn't move much (our fortress monestry is on the Eternal Crusader) The Salamders interact more and are generally more empathetic to the Human race. You find me a Ultra smurf chaplain that held a Hive for 30+ days against a Ork horde that "Stretched out to the horizon" with titans, made an Imperator Titan stand and fight, then rescuing said titan after leaping from a thunderhawk. Then fighting off an ork horde in CQB before being crushed by a cathederal. THEN CLAWING HIS WAY OUT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T FEEL LIKE DYING YET!
Didn't think so. If you doubt that a single chaplain did that read Helsreach.
MY MEHREENS ARE BETTERER THAN YOUR MEHREENS!!!111!!!0
The Black Templars are only as big as they are due to Dorn's shifty shiftiness when it came to dividing his Legion up, and cannot be counted as a "success" as much as it can a violation of Imperial law.
Furthermore, the individual achievements of characters are hardly something to measure the success of an entire chapter on, and as the Ultras have more or less remained intact as a chapter despite the immense gak hurled at them, I'd say they were certainly one of the more tenacious chapters in the Imperium. Their battle achievements are the equal of most of the other chapters, and they've managed it whilst sticking to Guilleman's Highway Code.
Also, "We have a larger fleet?" "We aren't rooted to a single position?"
Are you a Black Templar now? Did you undergo SM training and modification, is that it?
Ultimately, there isn't all that much wrong with the Ultramarines, except for some misplaced ideas that because they're the most prevalent SM chapter on GW's products, they should be hated.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Are you a Black Templar now? Did you undergo SM training and modification, is that it?
Ultimately, there isn't all that much wrong with the Ultramarines, except for some misplaced ideas that because they're the most prevalent SM chapter on GW's products, they should be hated.
That and because "they are the greatest Space Marines in the Imperium".
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
Are you a Black Templar now? Did you undergo SM training and modification, is that it?
Ultimately, there isn't all that much wrong with the Ultramarines, except for some misplaced ideas that because they're the most prevalent SM chapter on GW's products, they should be hated.
That and because "they are the greatest Space Marines in the Imperium".
Dude, sit down and read Codex: SW sometime. It'll put your complaints into perspective, and I say that as a confirmed fan of the Wolves.
40K is, by it's nature, over-the-top and daft as hell. That's the norm here.
Sorry I think highly of McNeill for his work with the Ultramarines. He puts them in their place. "The Chapter's Due" Is a great example in my eyes as it shows the limits (read stupidity) of the Codex Astrates, makes some of the superior special characters actually human like with weaknesses (making them to be better characters because they have flaws) and gave credit to other chapters where credit was due like the Raven Guard.
I mean I guess everyone has their own opinion. Just so weird to me.
I love that book precisely for that reason ^^
My beloved raven guard are ninjas in that book- a captain, sergeant and techmarine snuck up on telion without really trying, can sneak up on scouts and can scale a chaos fortress and take out the guards without detection even from allied forces, can climb a 1-2 hundred foot tall basilica and blow it up, can avoid detection from ultramarine scanners at will, and Marneus Calgar sticks to the codex astartes and is blinded by anger and pride that he loses his flagship in a space battle and nearly dies, along with most of the 1st company and Tigirius.
HAHA, no. The Black Templars Outnumber them 6+:1 We also have a larger fleet, we aren't rooted to a single position that doesn't move much (our fortress monestry is on the Eternal Crusader)
None of that matters when it comes to success or a combat record. Like it or not the Ultramairnes are stated to be one of the most successful and famous chapters in the Imperium.
The Crusader wrote:
find me a Ultra smurf chaplain that held a Hive for 30+ days against a Ork horde that "Stretched out to the horizon" with titans, made an Imperator Titan stand and fight, then rescuing said titan after leaping from a thunderhawk. Then fighting off an ork horde in CQB before being crushed by a cathederal. THEN CLAWING HIS WAY OUT BECAUSE HE DIDN'T FEEL LIKE DYING YET!
Didn't think so. If you doubt that a single chaplain did that read Helsreach.
I can find a Chapter Master that slew an Eldar God of War, but that’s not quite what happened in Helsreach. In fact the Grimaldous kinda lost his entire team in the end.
But that's not the point. But I am not necessarily saying they are the most successful chapter in ten thousand years. (Such a thing would be hard to measure.) but what is undeniable is that they are a highly successful and honored Chapter.
I can find a captain who walked up to an iron warriors fortress, climbed up it, eliminated the guards with near-perfect synchrony along with his squad, then went back to the ultramarine scouts looking at the fortress and spoke to them without them knowing what the hell happened. Later, he then climbed the black basillica, assassinated the traitor techpriest, blew up entire enemy mechanicum, pretty much walked out the front door, took out a few squads of iron warriors, escaped thier fortress, and headed home with a prisoner of war.
not as badass as the black templar's story, but much more subtle and requiring much less brute force.
But yes, the ultramarines are one of the most successful chapters, wrote the space marine's guide to waging wars and stick to it no matter what and survived. Though they are (IMO) too over-presented in terms of fluff, special characters and on the boxes*, they are a fairly respectable chapter.
*I think it'd be better if they showed models on the boxes depending on the squad, e.g terminators should be imperial fists, assault marines/scouts should be raven guard, tactical marines should be ultramarines, bikers should be white scars, etc.
shrike wrote:*I think it'd be better if they showed models on the boxes depending on the squad, e.g terminators should be imperial fists, assault marines/scouts should be raven guard, tactical marines should be ultramarines, bikers should be white scars, etc.
Like I said in my long post about why Codex: Ultramarines was renamed Codex: Space Marines, the box covers depicting Ultramarines is a marketing decision. It keeps all of the generic Space Marine products easily identifiable to new players. Existing players don't need their egos soothed by seeing their favorite chapter on box covers. They'll buy the models they need anyway, and then bitch about it on the Internet.
* They're seen as the boy scouts (Insert: Bland, vanila, boring) of the Emperium.
* It's easy to pile on the hate if others already are (if you're a dick).
* Immaturity.
* They've been the "favorites" for a while now, appearing on many/most of the box covers, have half of the named characters in the C:SM book, and so on.
They're a good chapter and I like their paint scheme, but I play Black Templar or Crimson Fists (Sons of Dorn!).
In Hindsight, It is actually the whole "Greatest in the Imperium" thing that I don't like.
The reason they are the "Greatest" Is because they have been fleshed out most. If you change the box art and the most fleshed out chapter to say Salamanders then after a couple of years it would be them we're piling the hate on
I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
During the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all. I know they had things on Mcragge to deal with, but come on the craddle of human life is in trouble and you don't have anyone there? Multiple legions were hit hard, except for the ultras. Then afterward Gulliman announces his codex astartes. Not what the emperor laid out, his creation. Then forces it upon everyone else. When some refuse and follow what the emperor told them to do they get attacked.
Now the final straw is that one of the things in the Codex is that chapters may have either a fleet or a fortress monestary on ONE read it again ONE world from which they draw recruits. How many worlds do the ultramarines control? Oh right a sector. So they think they are better than all the others then they force their will upon everyone else using force where neccessary then don't follow their own rules!
Now from a management perspective GW started by focusing on the Crimson Fists and their story of noble struggle to survive and rebuild after a Waaagh. Then they go to the pretty boys, who have supperiority issues.
Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
Well as I said before, there is a difference between GW telling us the fluff and what the characters themselves say.
Akroma06 wrote:IDuring the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all. I know they had things on Mcragge to deal with, but come on the craddle of human life is in trouble and you don't have anyone there? Multiple legions were hit hard, except for the ultras.
Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.
Akroma06 wrote:
Then afterward Gulliman announces his codex astartes. Not what the emperor laid out, his creation. Then forces it upon everyone else. When some refuse and follow what the emperor told them to do they get attacked.
Actually those changes were decreed by the High Lords. And you might be surprised to learn that most Primarchs supported Guilliman.
The Collected Visions book already mentioned that the Emperor had planned to create a "Council of Terra" to rule the Imperium after the Crusade would have ended. That was then reformed into the "High Lords of Terra" after the Heresy. IIRC some of the HH books also mention that some Primarchs worried what would become of them once the Crusade would be over and the Legions would no longer be needed.
Guilliman had been appointed commander over the Imperial armed foerces by the Imperium's ruling council. (It is also worth to point out that the Imperium was at the brink of splintering into several different factions, had the High Lords not come together and created the council.) And the Space Marine Legions are part of the Imperial armed forces, however much free reign the Primarchs might have had in conducting the crusade. There was nothing fishy about it.
The decrees within the Codex Astartes were drawn up at the behest of the High Lords, they were not simply something Guilliman made up. Dorn was not refusing the idears of a brother, he was refusing the decrees of the Imperial government.
Akroma06 wrote:
Now the final straw is that one of the things in the Codex is that chapters may have either a fleet or a fortress monestary on ONE read it again ONE world from which they draw recruits.
Where does it say that?
Akroma06 wrote:
Oh right a sector.
A sector is hardly eight worlds.
Akroma06 wrote:
So they think they are better than all the others then they force their will upon everyone else using force where neccessary then don't follow their own rules!
It is a widely held belief that since Guilliman wrote the Codex, and since Dorn had to comply with the decree of splitting his Legion, that therefor Guilliman was forcing all of the others to "do things his way". This ignores the fact that the mandatory legislation elements of the Codex were developed after the Heresy on behest of the High Lords and that the doctrine part of the Codex was a guide rather than decree. This is evident by the fact that Dorn's and Russ' issues were specifically about the decree to divide the Legions, not about any organisational matters, and by the fact that a lot of the First and Second Founding Chapters do deviate from the strict Codex organisation. If Dorn was forced on gunpoint to conform to the decree to split his Legion, then why were the Salamanders, the Iron Hands and the Space Wolves allowed to keep certain distinct organisational elements? Because that part was not forced on the new Chapters, like the decree limiting the allowed force strength and fleet assets was.
Gree wrote:Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.
to be fair, the raven guard lost over 96% of thier chapter as Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms and still made it to Terra several months before Horus attacked it.
The warp storms surrounding ultramar may have been bigger/stronger, though...
Gree wrote:Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.
to be fair, the raven guard lost over 96% of thier chapter as Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms and still made it to Terra several months before Horus attacked it.
The warp storms surrounding ultramar may have been bigger/stronger, though...
When are the Raven Guard mentioned to getting to Terra? I recall Corax going to Terra before the Siege in Deliverance Lost, but the Raven Guard did not show up at the Siege. (Interestingly, Collected Visions notes that the Ultramarines were part of the reinforcement fleet alongside the Dark Angels and Space Wolves)
but I was responding to the assertion that the Ultramarines did not get hit hard.
Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
During the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all. I know they had things on Mcragge to deal with, but come on the craddle of human life is in trouble and you don't have anyone there? Multiple legions were hit hard, except for the ultras. Then afterward Gulliman announces his codex astartes. Not what the emperor laid out, his creation. Then forces it upon everyone else. When some refuse and follow what the emperor told them to do they get attacked.
Now the final straw is that one of the things in the Codex is that chapters may have either a fleet or a fortress monestary on ONE read it again ONE world from which they draw recruits. How many worlds do the ultramarines control? Oh right a sector. So they think they are better than all the others then they force their will upon everyone else using force where neccessary then don't follow their own rules!
Now from a management perspective GW started by focusing on the Crimson Fists and their story of noble struggle to survive and rebuild after a Waaagh. Then they go to the pretty boys, who have supperiority issues.
Hope ultramar finds more nids to finish the job.
I too hate the Salamanders and the Raven Guard because they didn't defend Terra at all...oh...wait....that would be stupid. The Ultramarines were busy getting backstabbed by the Word Bearers. That the Legion survived at all is quite an achivement. What the carriongod laid out is of little importance, after all his oh so glorious plans lead to the whole mess. Splitting up the Legions was, especialy in the face of considerable mistrust from all those who suffered because of the Legions, a wise choice and helped to mend the young and still fragile Imperium.
Papa Smurf didn't force anyone to accept the codex, as can be seen by the continued existance of non codex chapters. He merely forced the Legions to split, which was not a bad choice.
Nowhere does the codex state that everyone has to recruit from just a single world. The Imperial Fists, the Dark Angels, the White Consuls and many more chapters chose their recruits from a large number of worlds. Most chapters ( at least those who aren't fleetbound ) merely govern a single system / world. The Ultramarines also do not govern an entire single sector. Ultramar has 13 known worlds, that is at best a subsector. Your claim that the Ultramarines actualy think they are better than anyone else is not backed up by actual fluff.
Focusing on the Crimson Fists is most certainly a possiblity but why should GW focus on a chapter that is so utterly incompetent that they destroy their own fortress monastery? See? I too can play the idiothate game. ( the Fists are of course cool )
Gree wrote:Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.
to be fair, the raven guard lost over 96% of thier chapter as Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms and still made it to Terra several months before Horus attacked it.
The warp storms surrounding ultramar may have been bigger/stronger, though...
When are the Raven Guard mentioned to getting to Terra? I recall Corax going to Terra before the Siege in Deliverance Lost, but the Raven Guard did not show up at the Siege.
That is the instance to which I am referring- The raven guard got hit badly at Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms, flew to Terra, most of the raven guard waited in orbit while an honour guard and Corax spoke to Dorn, the Sigillite and the emperor, got the gene-seed data and went back to the deliverance systemt to try and rebuild.
My point is that the raven guard were hit much harder and managed to get to Terra through warp storms, so why couldn't the Ultramarines? (unless the warp storms were worse)
Gree wrote:Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.
to be fair, the raven guard lost over 96% of thier chapter as Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms and still made it to Terra several months before Horus attacked it.
The warp storms surrounding ultramar may have been bigger/stronger, though...
When are the Raven Guard mentioned to getting to Terra? I recall Corax going to Terra before the Siege in Deliverance Lost, but the Raven Guard did not show up at the Siege.
That is the instance to which I am referring- The raven guard got hit badly at Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms, flew to Terra, most of the raven guard waited in orbit while an honour guard and Corax spoke to Dorn, the Sigillite and the emperor, got the gene-seed data and went back to the deliverance systemt to try and rebuild.
My point is that the raven guard were hit much harder and managed to get to Terra through warp storms, so why couldn't the Ultramarines? (unless the warp storms were worse)
Well first of all, most of the Ultramarines fleet was destroyed in Know No Fear. That and Erebus summoned the warp storms right at Calth, so that might have something to do with it.
And of course, if the Raven Guard could get to Terra so quickly why were they not at the Siege?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KingDeath wrote:
Your claim that the Ultramarines actualy think they are better than anyone else is not backed up by actual fluff.
I’m sure every chapter thinks they are the best. I doubt the Salamanders think the Imperial Fists are superior and I doubt the Wolves think the Lion was better than Russ. They wouldn’t start shoving it on other chapter’s faces though. No chapter would go up in the face of another chapter and start proclaiming themselves superior. That would be pointless and cause needless strife.
shrike wrote:That is the instance to which I am referring- The raven guard got hit badly at Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms, flew to Terra, most of the raven guard waited in orbit while an honour guard and Corax spoke to Dorn, the Sigillite and the emperor, got the gene-seed data and went back to the deliverance systemt to try and rebuild.
My point is that the raven guard were hit much harder and managed to get to Terra through warp storms, so why couldn't the Ultramarines? (unless the warp storms were worse)
Well first of all, most of the Ultramarines fleet was destroyed in Know No Fear. That and Erebus summoned the warp storms right at Calth, so that might have something to do with it.
And of course, if the Raven Guard could get to Terra so quickly why were they not at the Siege?
Fair enough with most of the fleet destroyed, then.
and Dorn and the Sigillite tried to convince Corax to stay, but he had only 3000 troops and raven guard were better on the move, as opposed to static. He went and, using gene-seed cloning technology given to him by the emperor, spent months rebuilding the legion to roughly 6000 or so, then with the help of the imperial guard, led numerous hit & run raids on chaos-held worlds, killing far more than they would have stood on the walls at Terra.
shrike wrote:That is the instance to which I am referring- The raven guard got hit badly at Istvaan, got surrounded by warp storms, flew to Terra, most of the raven guard waited in orbit while an honour guard and Corax spoke to Dorn, the Sigillite and the emperor, got the gene-seed data and went back to the deliverance systemt to try and rebuild.
My point is that the raven guard were hit much harder and managed to get to Terra through warp storms, so why couldn't the Ultramarines? (unless the warp storms were worse)
Well first of all, most of the Ultramarines fleet was destroyed in Know No Fear. That and Erebus summoned the warp storms right at Calth, so that might have something to do with it.
And of course, if the Raven Guard could get to Terra so quickly why were they not at the Siege?
Fair enough with most of the fleet destroyed, then.
and Dorn and the Sigillite tried to convince Corax to stay, but he had only 3000 troops and raven guard were better on the move, as opposed to static. He went and, using gene-seed cloning technology given to him by the emperor, spent months rebuilding the legion to roughly 6000 or so, then with the help of the imperial guard, led numerous hit & run raids on chaos-held worlds, killing far more than they would have stood on the walls at Terra.
Then why where the Space Wolves not at the Siege? Or the Dark Angels? Or the Iron Hands?
(Perhaps it’s interesting to note that the Lion was stuck in a sector for two years because of warp storms while Corax can seemingly fly around easily for some reason.)
Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
Well as I said before, there is a difference between GW telling us the fluff and what the characters themselves say.
Fair enough.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote:IDuring the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all. I know they had things on Mcragge to deal with, but come on the craddle of human life is in trouble and you don't have anyone there? Multiple legions were hit hard, except for the ultras.
Actually if you read Know No Fear, two thirds of the Ultramarines Legion was killed. Then warp storms surrounded Ultramar.
I never said they took no casualties, but the conflict had been going on for a quite a while and they knew Horus' goal was Terra.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote: Then afterward Gulliman announces his codex astartes. Not what the emperor laid out, his creation. Then forces it upon everyone else. When some refuse and follow what the emperor told them to do they get attacked.
Actually those changes were decreed by the High Lords. And you might be surprised to learn that most Primarchs supported Guilliman.
The Collected Visions book already mentioned that the Emperor had planned to create a "Council of Terra" to rule the Imperium after the Crusade would have ended. That was then reformed into the "High Lords of Terra" after the Heresy. IIRC some of the HH books also mention that some Primarchs worried what would become of them once the Crusade would be over and the Legions would no longer be needed.
Guilliman had been appointed commander over the Imperial armed foerces by the Imperium's ruling council. (It is also worth to point out that the Imperium was at the brink of splintering into several different factions, had the High Lords not come together and created the council.) And the Space Marine Legions are part of the Imperial armed forces, however much free reign the Primarchs might have had in conducting the crusade. There was nothing fishy about it.
The decrees within the Codex Astartes were drawn up at the behest of the High Lords, they were not simply something Guilliman made up. Dorn was not refusing the idears of a brother, he was refusing the decrees of the Imperial government.
First off everything I have read said Guilliman. Codecies are considered canon and I know my BT and my C:SM say Guilliman. Even if it is the High Lords that is not what the emperor said. Now as for the Primarchs it was an even split as I recall. Even then to openly attack your brothers for not agreeing?
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote: Now the final straw is that one of the things in the Codex is that chapters may have either a fleet or a fortress monestary on ONE read it again ONE world from which they draw recruits.
Where does it say that?
I have read it in my BT codex (get you a page number later) and I'm looking at it in the Lexicanum right now.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote: Oh right a sector.
A sector is hardly eight worlds.
It can be, but my point is it is not one world. Which reminds me that the ultramarines and their successors are to fall back to McCragge should the imperium's situation become more dire.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote: So they think they are better than all the others then they force their will upon everyone else using force where neccessary then don't follow their own rules!
It is a widely held belief that since Guilliman wrote the Codex, and since Dorn had to comply with the decree of splitting his Legion, that therefor Guilliman was forcing all of the others to "do things his way". This ignores the fact that the mandatory legislation elements of the Codex were developed after the Heresy on behest of the High Lords and that the doctrine part of the Codex was a guide rather than decree. This is evident by the fact that Dorn's and Russ' issues were specifically about the decree to divide the Legions, not about any organisational matters, and by the fact that a lot of the First and Second Founding Chapters do deviate from the strict Codex organisation. If Dorn was forced on gunpoint to conform to the decree to split his Legion, then why were the Salamanders, the Iron Hands and the Space Wolves allowed to keep certain distinct organisational elements? Because that part was not forced on the new Chapters, like the decree limiting the allowed force strength and fleet assets was.
Hey I don't write the fluff, I just read it. I was still talking about having more than one planet. As in the ultras going here follow these rules, and then we won't stick to all of them! Don't like it? We will fire at you then. If it was supposed to be a guide why was it enforced at gunpoint? We don't want your guidlines, but we continue to serve the emperor.
Dorn was attacked! Repedatively. His fleet would enter orbit and they would open fire on him! It was only to keep the imperium united that he relented. He cared more about the Imperium and what the emperor did than his own pride.
I beilieve that the Iron Hands were already at Chapter Strength and I don't know about Russ and the SW.
KingDeath wrote:
Your claim that the Ultramarines actualy think they are better than anyone else is not backed up by actual fluff.
I’m sure every chapter thinks they are the best. I doubt the Salamanders think the Imperial Fists are superior and I doubt the Wolves think the Lion was better than Russ. They wouldn’t start shoving it on other chapter’s faces though. No chapter would go up in the face of another chapter and start proclaiming themselves superior. That would be pointless and cause needless strife.
But the Salamanders don't call the Imperial Fists degenerates for not using enough flamers. The fluff in the codex has to be from someone's point of view, so either there are chapters that genuinely do feel shamed because they never can be Ultramarines, or the Ultramarines themselves regard all other chapters as inferior or degenerate.
Were are all the kids who play Ultramarines in my area? Or kids at all? I'm always the youngest at my LGS and I am 2 weeks till 16. And I play Imperial Guard.
Interesting the points made by both sides. It would seem to me that a lack of information about them might be a cause of the issue. I mean think of all the sources over how many editions you guys have cities to know all this.
Imagine this from a newer player pov. They only know a tip of the iceberg so only have opinions based on such a small piece of this. Typically dislike of something comes from a lack of completely understanding the others pov. SO if all you see if they're ultra, super and perfect like in the new codex you would have such a narrow view of them as a whole.
Akroma06 wrote:I never said they took no casualties, but the conflict had been going on for a quite a while and they knew Horus' goal was Terra.
You said multiple Legions were hit hard, except for the Ultramarines. Two thirds losses is what I would call hit hard.
But what the Ultramairneas knew of Horus’s plans were debatable. The fact that Guilliman literally had most of his fleet annihilated in drydock by the Word Bearers would have factored into that.
Akroma06 wrote:
First off everything I have read said Guilliman.
I just posted a quote directly a few pages back noting the High Lords decree.
Akroma06 wrote:
Codecies are considered canon and I know my BT and my C:SM say Guilliman.
He did it, but it was decreed by the High Lords
.
The newly created High Lords established the organisation of the Imperium that remains familiar to this day. The first High Lords laid down the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary lords. One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium’s armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines. Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for Space Marines. The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.-Codex Space Marines.
Guilliman undertook the task but it was decreed by the High Lords.
Akroma06 wrote:
Even if it is the High Lords that is not what the emperor said.
The Emperor put a bunch of normal humans in charge of the Imperium. Horus even laments at one point in the books that he is being given orders by them. Then those normal humans decided to make changes with the Emperor’s authority.
If anybody has any claim to rule the Imperium it’s going to be the High Lords.
Akroma06 wrote:
Now as for the Primarchs it was an even split as I recall.
The original fluff was Guilliman, Khan and Corax on one side, and Russ, Dorn and Vulkan on another. But now according to Imperial Armour 10 retcons Vulkan into being astrong supporter of Guilliman.
So as of the most recent fluff, Guilliman, Khan, Corax and Vulkan stood on one side and Dorn and Russ on the other.
Akroma06 wrote:
I have read it in my BT codex (get you a page number later) and I'm looking at it in the Lexicanum right now.
Lexicanum is not really a reliable source. I’ve seen thins paraphrased or misinterpreted on there before. Use the actual sources please.
Akroma06 wrote:
It can be, but my point is it is not one world. Which reminds me that the ultramarines and their successors are to fall back to McCragge should the imperium's situation become more dire.
I imagine every chapter would logically fall to their homeworld if things got dire.
Akroma06 wrote:
Hey I don't write the fluff, I just read it. I was still talking about having more than one planet.
Where is it noted that Chapters are restricted to one planet? I can name at least two Chapters (The Raven Guard and Executioners) have two planets and nobody raises a fuss.
Akroma06 wrote:
We will fire at you then. If it was supposed to be a guide why was it enforced at gunpoint? We don't want your guidlines, but we continue to serve the emperor.
As I already explained, the size limits was enforced, not the tactics or organization part. The entire issue addressed in the fluff was Dorn and Russ having an issue with the breaking of the Legions. There is no conflict recorded as Dorn having with the combat tactics part.
A lot of people who only glance over the Black Templars background get the impression that Guilliman forced all the Legions and Chapters to organize into ten Companies of ten squads, just like his own Ultramarines. But then we have the Salamanders and the Space Wolves, who aren't organised that way, or the Iron Hands who do not have any reserve companies. A lot of players do not make a distinction between the combat doctrines part of the Codex, which was mainy guidelines and suggestions, and the legislation part of the Codex, which was mandatory for all Space Marines. As a result of this Guilliman is seen as pompous and arrogant for seemingly requiring all Space Marine forces to organise and fight according to his idears, when it was mainly the legislation, which Guilliman had devised on behest of the High Lords and as a reaction to the events of the Heresy, which was mandated and decreed to all.
In the Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Codex Astartes is described in too much detail as to give a short quote, but it has several paragraphs explaining that two of the most important aspects of the Codex were the regulation of force sizes and the revised training doctrine for new recruits, and then in the final paragraph points out that the Codex also includes tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform markings. The Codex is not only a guidbook on warfare, though that was probably Guilliman's pet project during the Crusade. The Codex defines the rules and laws Space Marines are subject to, and their place within the Imperium as one of the Adeptus' organisations.
Essentially: Guilliman works throughout the Great Crusade to compile a massive treatise on warfare, in which he includes a lot of contributions by his brothers. After the Heresy, Guilliman becomes one of the High Lords of Terra, and is tasked with reforming the Imperial military and codifying the future legislation for Space Marines. He combines both of these elements into the "Codex Astartes", which deals with all aspects concerning Space Marines, and presents this to his brothers as the future of the Space Marines. This Codex includes the mandates for Space Marines, and the reforms which the Legions (as well as all the other Imperial armed forces) all have to abide by. And it also includes the massive guidebook on warfare which Guilliman had been working on all his life. The legislation part is mandatory for all Space Marines, and is decreed by the High Lords. The guide is not mandatory, and would be impossible to police and to enforce, and not all First and Second Founding Chapters fully adhere to it.
Rogal Dorn had a problem with the mandate to limit the number of Space Marines one single individual was allowed to command. This had been one of the decrees by the High Lords which had been a result of the Heresy, and therefor Dorn was not permitted to disregard it.
Akroma06 wrote:
Dorn was attacked! Repedatively. His fleet would enter orbit and they would open fire on him! It was only to keep the imperium united that he relented. He cared more about the Imperium and what the emperor did than his own pride.
He was fired at once by an Imperial Navy ship because he was rebelling against a superior authority. He did not rule the Imperium, the High Lords did.
Durza wrote:
Gree wrote:
KingDeath wrote:
Your claim that the Ultramarines actualy think they are better than anyone else is not backed up by actual fluff.
I’m sure every chapter thinks they are the best. I doubt the Salamanders think the Imperial Fists are superior and I doubt the Wolves think the Lion was better than Russ. They wouldn’t start shoving it on other chapter’s faces though. No chapter would go up in the face of another chapter and start proclaiming themselves superior. That would be pointless and cause needless strife.
But the Salamanders don't call the Imperial Fists degenerates for not using enough flamers. The fluff in the codex has to be from someone's point of view, so either there are chapters that genuinely do feel shamed because they never can be Ultramarines, or the Ultramarines themselves regard all other chapters as inferior or degenerate.
Do you have any actual source thaty the Ultramarines think the Fists are degnerates? We have Ward's third person narrative voice, but I have yet to see any evidence that the Ultramairnes disdain other chapters.
Was that two thirds of everyone there or two thirds of the entire legion?
And all I said was that if the source was truly third person, there wouldn't have been any opinion on those who didn't follow the codex, just that most did. The fact that there is an opinion means that someone must have it about them. As for the Fists, I only used them as an example for the Salamander analogy you used. Someone considers the Space Wolves and those like them degenerates, and it probably isn't themselves.
Durza wrote:Was that two thirds of everyone there or two thirds of the entire legion?
Two thirds of the entire Legion. At least that’s implied by the report of a Techpriest. 200,000 Ultramarine are present and to the end of the battle a Techpriest notes they only have contacts with less than 30,000 Ultramarines.
170,000 dead out of 250,000 is a hefy loss no matter how you look at it. Erebus even states that the Ultramarines are no longer a threat.
Oh, and I edited in a reply to your prior post Durza in my own prior post.
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Durza wrote:
And all I said was that if the source was truly third person, there wouldn't have been any opinion on those who didn't follow the codex, just that most did. The fact that there is an opinion means that someone must have it about them. As for the Fists, I only used them as an example for the Salamander analogy you used. Someone considers the Space Wolves and those like them degenerates, and it probably isn't themselves.
I will repeat myself:
There is a crucial difference between GW telling us that the Ultramarines are the greatest Chapter and the Ultramarines themselves proclaiming that they are the greatest Chapter. The latter would be pretty arrogant, while the former is merely GW describing the background. This is like saying the Dark Angels go around telling everyone that they have a big secret but aren't telling what it is.
Gree wrote:200,000 Ultramarine are present and to the end of the battle a Techpriest notes they only have contacts with less than 30,000 Ultramarines.
170,000 dead out of 250,000 is a hefy loss no matter how you look at it. Erebus even states that the Ultramarines are no longer a threat.
200,000 ultramarines? In knew raven guard were low in numbers, but wow... before Istvaan there were 80,000 raven guard, 3000 of which remained after Istvaan, including those which weren't there. *Australian accent* You call that a hefty loss? THIS is a hefty loss!
Gree wrote:200,000 Ultramarine are present and to the end of the battle a Techpriest notes they only have contacts with less than 30,000 Ultramarines.
170,000 dead out of 250,000 is a hefy loss no matter how you look at it. Erebus even states that the Ultramarines are no longer a threat.
200,000 ultramarines? In knew raven guard were low in numbers, but wow... before Istvaan there were 80,000 raven guard, 3000 of which remained after Istvaan, including those which weren't there. *Australian accent* You call that a hefty loss? THIS is a hefty loss!
Yes, yes, but losing over half oyur forces is still a hefy loss no matter how you want to look at it. That's my point, yes, I get the Raven Guard took big losses.
Gree wrote:200,000 Ultramarine are present and to the end of the battle a Techpriest notes they only have contacts with less than 30,000 Ultramarines.
170,000 dead out of 250,000 is a hefy loss no matter how you look at it. Erebus even states that the Ultramarines are no longer a threat.
200,000 ultramarines? In knew raven guard were low in numbers, but wow... before Istvaan there were 80,000 raven guard, 3000 of which remained after Istvaan, including those which weren't there. *Australian accent* You call that a hefty loss? THIS is a hefty loss!
Yes, yes, but losing over half oyur forces is still a hefy loss no matter how you want to look at it. That's my point, yes, I get the Raven Guard took big losses.
But yeah, I don't know why a few of the other chapters didn't show up... weren't the space wolves busy fighting the thousand sons?
I think it is interesting to see all the history against the Ultramarines stated here because of the Horus heresy. But my point is this, It is what happened after the heresy that put Them on the top of the list. After the heresy the ultra marines helped hold the imperium together.
Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
During the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all.
That's slowed. They weren't there. Originally they were too far away. Since then it has been retconned to be that their fleet was too badly mauled.
However, faulting the Ultramarines for not fighting at the Battle of Terra is like faulting the US Marines for not helping out at the Battle of Bastogne.
But yeah, Games Workshop tells us the fans that the Ultramarines are the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". The Ultramarines themselves don't wander around telling everyone how awesome they are. I mean, it is a logical possibility that one Space Marine Chapter is "greater" than all the others. Games Workshop tells us that Chapter is the Ultramarines. Hating the Ultramarines (or hating that fact) comes back down to the "Why not my favorite color of toy soldier" jealousy I described in my post. Or, just down to straight irrationality, lol.
Akroma06 wrote:I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself. I don't like the holier than thou attitude that comes with the supposed "we are the best." Line. That and their backstory.
During the heresy they didn't defend Terra at all.
That's slowed. They weren't there. Originally they were too far away. Since then it has been retconned to be that their fleet was too badly mauled.
However, faulting the Ultramarines for not fighting at the Battle of Terra is like faulting the US Marines for not helping out at the Battle of Bastogne.
I agree with this perfectly. Some Ultramarine Haters (Not all) will say anything that "makes the Ultras look bad."
Veteran Sergeant wrote:But yeah, Games Workshop tells us the fans that the Ultramarines are the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". The Ultramarines themselves don't wander around telling everyone how awesome they are. I mean, it is a logical possibility that one Space Marine Chapter is "greater" than all the others. Games Workshop tells us that Chapter is the Ultramarines. Hating the Ultramarines (or hating that fact) comes back down to the "Why not my favorite color of toy soldier" jealousy I described in my post.
Here's where I disagree. Saying you dislike the fluff doesn't mean your jealous of it. Say there was some fluff that said, "The Tau are the strongest race" and when you, an Ultramarine fan was understandably irks I said, "Oh, you poor sad soul you're just jealous that your precious plastic isn't as good as that plastic HAHHAHAHA!" Just because a person has an opinion on a fictional universe doesn't make them a loser whose obsessed with it.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Or, just down to straight irrationality, lol.
And here's another thing. People aren't jealous of the Ultramarines, but rather they dislike the fluff. At least most of them. As I've said before, different people dislike the Ultras for different reasons, but most dislike them because of bad writing. It's not as bad as Draigo, but its still bad. Ultramarines are too upbeat and too heroic for a grimdark universe like 40k. They have a utopian society, a powerful military and a far and just leader. In another universe (like Star Wars) that'd work fine, but it doesn't mesh with 40k. I think they should change it. Does that mean I'm jealous of a piece of plastic? No, in fact my life is far more fulfilling than the life of a little plastic mini.
You can dislike the Ultramarines for whatever reason you feel like justifies your irrationality, lol.
Too upbeat, not grimdark enough? Obviously you were confusing them with the Space Wolves and their jolly viking theme. The back story of Ultramar contains a planet with a dying sun, one eaten completely by Tyranids, etc. I mean, it doesn't get too much more grimdark than a perfect society being slowly eaten away. Have you read any of the Horus Heresy novels yet? Guess what that's describing? The fall of an advanced and glorious society. Grimdark doesn't mean everything has to suck, all the time. There are lots of "pleasure planets" and "nice" places all throughout the Imperium, and they are discussed in the lore all the time. Singling out Ultramar is simply confirmation bias.
Bad writing? Most of the people who hate the Ultramarines love bad writing, and are quick to cite Graham McNeill's books, which are the worst Ultramarines writing ever done. I explained the reality of the 5th Edition Codex wording. You can refuse to accept the truth, but we're back to irrationality. The bottom line is, when compared to the overblown superman-like Special Characters of other codex books, the Ultramarines are on par and certainly not comparatively overdone, and the "spiritual liege" line makes perfect sense when you understand what it refers to. Any other belief is bias talking, not rationality.
It's definitely straight jealousy. Most complaints are about the Ultramarines being described as "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". If you dislike that piece of established canon, then it is because you disagree with that statement. However, disagreement with that statement is impossible to support with evidence, since you will always be trumped by the fact that the Ultramarines are "The greatest of Space Marine Chapters". Thus, any belief to the contrary is... you guess it, irrational. And why would they want to disagree with that statement? Because they feel that the honor of "greatest of the Space Marine Chapters: should go to another Chapter, obviously one that they prefer. I mean, we can play semantics and give it a name other than jealousy, but we're just masking the greater truth.
There's no logical way to hate the Ultramarines. There just isn't. They are everything that is awesome about Space Marines, so by default they are pretty cool. They may not be as individually exciting as other chapters to some people (I addressed the classic idea of them as "vanilla" or "boring"). But being bland really isn't a reason to hate them. Like every Chapter described in-depth by GW, they've had their ups and downs, wins and losses. The argument that they are described as "too good" or "too perfect" is just categorically untrue. If anything, thanks to Graham McNeill, they've been crapped on more than any other chapter, lol. No other chapter has been repeatedly called stupid in their own series of novels.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:You can dislike the Ultramarines for whatever reason you feel like justifies your irrationality, lol.
Patronizing people is a dirty tactic. As you've said in other threads, this is just about pieces of plastic. No need for hostility.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Too upbeat, not grimdark enough? Obviously you were confusing them with the Space Wolves and their jolly viking theme.
Ever read "A Thousand Sons"? The Space Wolves massacre civilians and destroy a planet of intellectuals.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The back story of Ultramar contains a planet with a dying sun, one eaten completely by Tyranids, etc. I mean, it doesn't get too much more grimdark than a perfect society being slowly eaten away.
In the fluff, it's not portrayed as being eaten away though. It's be portrayed as enduring.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Have you read any of the Horus Heresy novels yet? Guess what that's describing? The fall of an advanced and glorious society.
I presume you're referring to the latest one about the Word Bearers fighting the Ultramarines. Unfortunately I, like the majority of HH fans, have yet to get it but hope to soon. And if you're right, and it portrays the fall of the society, well then I'll say that the fluff's been fixed like I've been hoping for it to.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Grimdark doesn't mean everything has to suck, all the time.
Of course not. But grimdark settings aren't supposed to have upbeat utopias. And if "Know No Fear" fixed that, well then that's good.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:There are lots of "pleasure planets" and "nice" places all throughout the Imperium, and they are discussed in the lore all the time. Singling out Ultramar is simply confirmation bias.
Give some examples please.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Bad writing? Most of the people who hate the Ultramarines love bad writing, and are quick to cite Graham McNeill's books, which are the worst Ultramarines writing ever done.
I agree, those books are bad writing.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:I explained the reality of the 5th Edition Codex wording. You can refuse to accept the truth, but we're back to irrationality.
These are pieces of overpriced plastic. No need to patronize me.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The bottom line is, when compared to the overblown superman-like Special Characters of other codex books, the Ultramarines are on par and certainly not comparatively overdone, and the "spiritual liege" line makes perfect sense when you understand what it refers to. Any other belief is bias talking, not rationality.
You keep saying that anyone who dislikes Ultramarines is being irrational. You only need to say it once. Also, I never said the other fluff was perfect. In fact, Ultramarines are just one example of how the Space Marines are being built up as super heroic and ungrimdark, which doesn't mesh with 40k. People just single them out because they're one of the best examples of it.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's definitely straight jealousy. Most complaints are about the Ultramarines being described as "the greatest of all Space Marine Chapters". If you dislike that piece of established canon, then it is because you disagree with that statement. However, disagreement with that statement is impossible to support with evidence, since you will always be trumped by the fact that the Ultramarines are "The greatest of Space Marine Chapters".
Holy gak, you didn't read my post. Okay, I'm sorry for patronizing you, that comment was rude. But, I explained why it isn't jealousy. Reread my post. People dislike Ultramarines because they DONT MESH WITH THE FLUFF. I'm not jealous of a piece of plastic. Just reread my other post and you'll understand my arguement.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Thus, any belief to the contrary is... you guess it, irrational. And why would they want to disagree with that statement? Because they feel that the honor of "greatest of the Space Marine Chapters: should go to another Chapter, obviously one that they prefer. I mean, we can play semantics and give it a name other than jealousy, but we're just masking the greater truth.
Reread my post. Disliked the background does not equal jealousy. I don't even play Space Marines, so why would I be jealous that the Ultramarines are better than my nonexistent Chapter? Of course they're better. For starters, my Chapter has no Marines, compared to their 1,000.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:There's no logical way to hate the Ultramarines. There just isn't. They are everything that is awesome about Space Marines, so by default they are pretty cool. They may not be as individually exciting as other chapters to some people (I addressed the classic idea of them as "vanilla" or "boring"). But being bland really isn't a reason to hate them.
I agree. Space Marines are not bland, therefore the Ultramarines, who are straightforward Space Marines, are not bland.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:Like every Chapter described in-depth by GW, they've had their ups and downs, wins and losses. The argument that they are described as "too good" or "too perfect" is just categorically untrue.
It seems like they've had way too many wins though. And they have a utopian society. And fair and just leaders. And one victory after another. So, your argument is categorically untrue. Bam.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If anything, thanks to Graham McNeill, they've been crapped on more than any other chapter, lol. No other chapter has been repeatedly called stupid in their own series of novels.
I never finished reading the first one because, as your said, they're bad writing. I actually didn't get far at all, because I dropped it pretty quickly in favor of Ciaphis Cain. However, from the Lexicanum synopsis of the books, the Ultramarines win. They beat M'kar/the Necrons/Tyranids/whatever bothered them and then go back to sipping tea in the Fortress of Hera.
Im not really sure why you want to paint those who don't care for them in such a negative light. I don't really care for most chapters outside of dark angels and grey knights. That has little to do with fluff or anything negative towards them. It's just a preference. I have always like the gk due to looks, all psykers, them vs chaos since the idea of heaven vs hell is interesting to me. I'd rather read about alric then ventriss. The Dark Angels appeal has to do with their rules set and colors.
Maybe not dislike but an indifference towards them and it has nothing to do with jealousy, writing or any of the mentioned reasons you named. Though I can say the current fluff alone not withstanding the fluff you all have pulled from several editions the current incarnation seems kinda bland.
Every marines book says theyre all awesome but nothing unique sets the smurfs apart from the other "awesome" marines but the codex which isnt even well defined and you had to pull almost a dozen sources together bit by bit to make them even sound different or not fulfill their horrid ward stereotype.
Oh and the gk had a pretty horrid showing in their omnibus as well so no pity parties for the smurfs. lol
LoneLictor wrote:I never finished reading the first one because, as your said, they're bad writing. I actually didn't get far at all, because I dropped it pretty quickly in favor of Ciaphis Cain. However, from the Lexicanum synopsis of the books, the Ultramarines win. They beat M'kar/the Necrons/Tyranids/whatever bothered them and then go back to sipping tea in the Fortress of Hera.
I'm sorry if you feel patronized. It isn't the intention. If you don't realize your reasoning isn't reasonable, then you'll continue on the same path. Though you do seem to have trouble discerning between which comments are directed at your specific complaints and what comments are addressing more general complaints by others against the Ultramarines. Either way, deconstructing your (and others') argument and analyzing its inherent flaws isn't being patronizing. It's simply how discussion works. Otherwise it isn't an exchange of ideas, simply repeated statements of belief. Your argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny in most places and I'm cataloging it for you. We can hand-wave it with you saying "Well that's how I feel" and be done with it, but you haven't said anything that was convincing to me in a persuasive argument. Not saying that to be mean, just stating fact. I've got no emotional investment here. If the thesis of my argument is "Disliking the Ultramarines isn't reasonable" and the counter argument contains nothing that disproves that statement...
As far as whether or not the Ultramarines "win" in all of those McNeill stories is somewhat irrelevant. They are Space Marines. And they definitely wouldn't be the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters" if they lost more than they won (well, I guess they could be, but then the rest of the Space Marines would have to be pants on head 'tarded and incompetent, lo). However, what I meant by them being called stupid is that repeatedly in those stories the Ultramarines say and do the dumbest things possible. Fight wars like the Codex Astartes is a simplistic "If A, Then B" Picturebook on Fightin'. Get angry at commanders for using heretical things like initiative and improvisation. They fight wars like an idiot would fight wars in those novels. In no other novels are the protagonists cast in so poorly of a light. Having character flaws or weaknesses to create three-dimensional characters and compelling stories is one thing. The Ultramarines Chapter of McNeill's novels has no strengths, haha. It's like the movie Swingers with Vince Vaughn and Jon Favreau. Favreau's character is so repeatedly stupid that it's nearly impossible to root for him. In fact, you're almost pissed off at the end when he gets the girl (peak years Heather Graham at that) because he's done nothing to deserve him. I won't lie, I haven't read most of McNeill's books either, only bits and pieces. It was hard enough trying to get through the first one, and if that was the only exposure to the Ultramarines I'd ever had, I'd probably think they were stupid and hate them too. And to address the Space Wolves, for every grimdark thing they do, they get in ten drunken brawls, laugh gregariously, and grow wild hair and silly beards that would interfere with the ability for them to enviroseal their armor. Definitely the least grimdark of the Space Marine chapters by so large of a margin it isn't funny. They make the Ultramarines look like
Maybe not dislike but an indifference towards them
I'm indifferent towards most of the different Chapters/Craft Worlds/Hive Fleets/Waaaaghs. If you just "don't care" about the Ultramarines, this thread isn't really referring to you then. Though you're obviously confused if you think I'm trying to play up the Ultramarines (though I fail to see how the number of sources provided hinders an argument). I don't see any reason that people have to like the Ultramarines. There's just no legitimate reason to dislike them. I find the Ultramarines intriguing because my tastes stray away from the less serious depictions of Space Marines (Space Wolves, Blood Angels, etc) and the Ultramarines fit into the more simple and militaristic "Big Guys with Big Guns in Big Armor" (BGBGBA) niche that I think they should. But I'd be and am equally a fan of other Chapters depicted as more "serious business". If this thread was called "Why does nobody care about the Ultramarines" then my response would be pretty simple.
It seems to me like you're being the unreasonable you. If you can't acknowledge that having a utopian and fair and just society does not mesh with the Imperium in the slightest, then its impossible for this debate to achieve anything. And actually, A Thousand Sons makes the jolly Space Wolves look grimdark. They're like if you took angry people at taverns and gave them god like power; all they do is get into fights and kill innocents, with seemingly no regard for human life. Its a really good book actually, I would suggest you read it. And I'll try to get "Know No Fear."
Akroma06 wrote:I never said they took no casualties, but the conflict had been going on for a quite a while and they knew Horus' goal was Terra.
You said multiple Legions were hit hard, except for the Ultramarines. Two thirds losses is what I would call hit hard.
But what the Ultramairneas knew of Horus’s plans were debatable. The fact that Guilliman literally had most of his fleet annihilated in drydock by the Word Bearers would have factored into that.
Yes I can let the fact that his fleet was hit factor into it. Just that if he had had at least a squad or several already there then at least they would have had a showing. When I say got hit hard I mean like the salamanders or the imp fists.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote:
First off everything I have read said Guilliman.
I just posted a quote directly a few pages back noting the High Lords decree.
Akroma06 wrote:
Codecies are considered canon and I know my BT and my C:SM say Guilliman.
He did it, but it was decreed by the High Lords
.
The newly created High Lords established the organisation of the Imperium that remains familiar to this day. The first High Lords laid down the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary lords. One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium’s armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines. Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for Space Marines. The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.-Codex Space Marines.
Guilliman undertook the task but it was decreed by the High Lords.
Ok C:BTpg 6. "With the threat of extinction lifted for the immediate future, Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion, devised a military orginsation that would spread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and the Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of a legion again. For the Space Marines these RULES (yes I added that) were laid down in the Codex Astartes, a mighty tome that also dealt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrine and all other aspects of the Space Marines' structure."
Guilliman wrote the rules. The high lords of Terra may have dictated it but it was his ideas that were put into the Codex and made RULES.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote:
Even if it is the High Lords that is not what the emperor said.
The Emperor put a bunch of normal humans in charge of the Imperium. Horus even laments at one point in the books that he is being given orders by them. Then those normal humans decided to make changes with the Emperor’s authority.
If anybody has any claim to rule the Imperium it’s going to be the High Lords.
No fair enough. My point is that the Emperor set up how he wanted the marines. Legions not Chapters.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote:
Now as for the Primarchs it was an even split as I recall.
The original fluff was Guilliman, Khan and Corax on one side, and Russ, Dorn and Vulkan on another. But now according to Imperial Armour 10 retcons Vulkan into being astrong supporter of Guilliman.
So as of the most recent fluff, Guilliman, Khan, Corax and Vulkan stood on one side and Dorn and Russ on the other.
So we can chalk this up to conflicting fluff. Most recent doesn't really apply when other things are consider canon still as well.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote:
I have read it in my BT codex (get you a page number later) and I'm looking at it in the Lexicanum right now.
Lexicanum is not really a reliable source. I’ve seen thins paraphrased or misinterpreted on there before. Use the actual sources please.
I was using it in addition to the codex. I wrote it above.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote:
It can be, but my point is it is not one world. Which reminds me that the ultramarines and their successors are to fall back to McCragge should the imperium's situation become more dire.
I imagine every chapter would logically fall to their homeworld if things got dire.
Actually that is an Ultramarine and their successors thing. The other Chapters fall back to terra. I'll have to go look it up too.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote:
Hey I don't write the fluff, I just read it. I was still talking about having more than one planet.
Where is it noted that Chapters are restricted to one planet? I can name at least two Chapters (The Raven Guard and Executioners) have two planets and nobody raises a fuss.
Again from C:BTpg 6 continuing about the Codex Astartes from above. "Each would take for itself a homeworld, fortress-monastery or fleet and stand ready to defen the Imperium from all threats." So basically the Imp fists and successors did this part. Homeworld - Imp Fists. Fortress-monastery - Crimson Fists, and Fleet - BT (probably the only thing they have in common with the Codex. Now note that it says "A" homeworld. 'A' means 1.
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote:
We will fire at you then. If it was supposed to be a guide why was it enforced at gunpoint? We don't want your guidlines, but we continue to serve the emperor.
As I already explained, the size limits was enforced, not the tactics or organization part. The entire issue addressed in the fluff was Dorn and Russ having an issue with the breaking of the Legions. There is no conflict recorded as Dorn having with the combat tactics part.
A lot of people who only glance over the Black Templars background get the impression that Guilliman forced all the Legions and Chapters to organize into ten Companies of ten squads, just like his own Ultramarines.
Again as quoted above "delt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrines and all other aspects of the Space Marines' structure. That sounds like the codex does everything. That isn't just me glancing over the fluff or getting an impression that is word for word on Page 6 bottom left hand paragraph from the C:BT.
Gree wrote:
But then we have the Salamanders and the Space Wolves, who aren't organised that way, or the Iron Hands who do not have any reserve companies. A lot of players do not make a distinction between the combat doctrines part of the Codex, which was mainy guidelines and suggestions, and the legislation part of the Codex, which was mandatory for all Space Marines. As a result of this Guilliman is seen as pompous and arrogant for seemingly requiring all Space Marine forces to organise and fight according to his idears, when it was mainly the legislation, which Guilliman had devised on behest of the High Lords and as a reaction to the events of the Heresy, which was mandated and decreed to all.
In the Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Codex Astartes is described in too much detail as to give a short quote, but it has several paragraphs explaining that two of the most important aspects of the Codex were the regulation of force sizes and the revised training doctrine for new recruits, and then in the final paragraph points out that the Codex also includes tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform markings. The Codex is not only a guidbook on warfare, though that was probably Guilliman's pet project during the Crusade. The Codex defines the rules and laws Space Marines are subject to, and their place within the Imperium as one of the Adeptus' organisations.
Essentially: Guilliman works throughout the Great Crusade to compile a massive treatise on warfare, in which he includes a lot of contributions by his brothers. After the Heresy, Guilliman becomes one of the High Lords of Terra, and is tasked with reforming the Imperial military and codifying the future legislation for Space Marines. He combines both of these elements into the "Codex Astartes", which deals with all aspects concerning Space Marines, and presents this to his brothers as the future of the Space Marines. This Codex includes the mandates for Space Marines, and the reforms which the Legions (as well as all the other Imperial armed forces) all have to abide by. And it also includes the massive guidebook on warfare which Guilliman had been working on all his life. The legislation part is mandatory for all Space Marines, and is decreed by the High Lords. The guide is not mandatory, and would be impossible to police and to enforce, and not all First and Second Founding Chapters fully adhere to it.
Rogal Dorn had a problem with the mandate to limit the number of Space Marines one single individual was allowed to command. This had been one of the decrees by the High Lords which had been a result of the Heresy, and therefor Dorn was not permitted to disregard it.
Just really want to focus on that part right there. I don't remember that but it would explain a lot. Why some sources say he wrote/enforced it and others say the high lords did it.
Now this clearly says the codex are the RULES that all are supposed to follow. Clearly today not everyone follows every law. Ever spead in a car? What would be the point of calling them rules if they are not mandatory?
Gree wrote:
Akroma06 wrote:
Dorn was attacked! Repedatively. His fleet would enter orbit and they would open fire on him! It was only to keep the imperium united that he relented. He cared more about the Imperium and what the emperor did than his own pride.
He was fired at once by an Imperial Navy ship because he was rebelling against a superior authority. He did not rule the Imperium, the High Lords did.
He refused to split his legion! Just because Guilliman said to. In fact the only reason he did relent was to save the imperium. Which is much more than what the high lords or Guilliman did. They pushed the imperium to the brink of total war again, because 2-3 legions refused the mandates of someone who did not defend Terra.
Akroma06 wrote:
Yes I can let the fact that his fleet was hit factor into it. Just that if he had had at least a squad or several already there then at least they would have had a showing.
Are you going to blame the Dark Angels or Space Wolves then?
Akroma06 wrote:
When I say got hit hard I mean like the salamanders or the imp fists.
It’s entirely possible the Fists got hit less hard than the Ultramarines we don’t know how many they lost.
Akroma06 wrote:
Ok C:BTpg 6. "With the threat of extinction lifted for the immediate future, Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion, devised a military orginsation that would spread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and the Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of a legion again. For the Space Marines these RULES (yes I added that) were laid down in the Codex Astartes, a mighty tome that also dealt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrine and all other aspects of the Space Marines' structure."
Guilliman wrote the rules. The high lords of Terra may have dictated it but it was his ideas that were put into the Codex and made RULES.
Yes, but with the High Lord’s authority. I.e with the Emperor’s authority. But as I pointed out, only some aspects of the Codex are decrees. The fact that the Wolves, the Iron Hands and the White Scars all retain non-Codex elements are proof of that.
I hope you are not too offended if I inform you that an individual Astartes Legion was only a pretty small part of the Imperial armed forces and of the relevant institutions of the Imperium as a whole.
If the description in the Codex Imperialis (p. 14) is anything to go by, then among the High Lords were the highest ranking members of the following Insititutions (so the people who were "ok" with the new order): The Administratum, the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy, the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Adeptus Arbites, the Navigators, the Master of the Astronomican, the Officio Assassinorum, and the Adeptus Astra Telepathica. The new order was pretty much accepted unanimous by all of the important institutions and offices of the Imperium. A single Space Marine Legion is a vanishingly minor element compared to all of those organisations. It was like a 95% agreement, and a minor 5% disagreement. That does not carry any weight. A Space Marine Legion is a powerfull asset, yes, but several of those institutions are absolutely vital for an operating Imperium, which a Space Marine Legion isn't. Dorn had no leverage at all. He was not cheated out of his right or anything. He was insignificant.
Edit: I guess you could say that it is instead quite arrogant to assume that a single Primarch would have had any say in the matter. The Emperor had created them as his generals, not as the leaders of the Imperium.
Akroma06 wrote:
No fair enough. My point is that the Emperor set up how he wanted the marines. Legions not Chapters.
He created Marines to conquer the galaxy, but he also created normal humans to rule it, and gave them authority over the Marines. In other terms he gave them power to do whatever they wanted with the Marines.
Akroma06 wrote:
So we can chalk this up to conflicting fluff. Most recent doesn't really apply when other things are consider canon still as well.
As of the most recent fluff, most Primarchs support Guilliman. But that does not matter since the High Lords are decreeing it anyway.
Akroma06 wrote:
Actually that is an Ultramarine and their successors thing. The other Chapters fall back to terra. I'll have to go look it up too.
And why would every other chapters fall back to Terra? You realize that we have a thousand different chapters with hundreds of different homeworlds and crusade fleets right? It is nigh impossible for everybody to converge on one place with any kind of coordination.
Akroma06 wrote:
Again from C:BTpg 6 continuing about the Codex Astartes from above. "Each would take for itself a homeworld, fortress-monastery or fleet and stand ready to defen the Imperium from all threats." So basically the Imp fists and successors did this part. Homeworld - Imp Fists. Fortress-monastery - Crimson Fists, and Fleet - BT (probably the only thing they have in common with the Codex. Now note that it says "A" homeworld. 'A' means 1.
It simply means they should take a homeworld. Not that they are restricted to having only one.
Akroma06 wrote:
Again as quoted above "delt with unit organisation, markings, tactical doctrines and all other aspects of the Space Marines' structure. That sounds like the codex does everything. That isn't just me glancing over the fluff or getting an impression that is word for word on Page 6 bottom left hand paragraph from the C:BT.
It deals with it, but it is not mandatory anyway.
The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day. As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.5th Edition Space Mairne Codex pg.9
Please note ‘’Guidelines’’ and ‘’recommendations’’
Akroma06 wrote:
Now this clearly says the codex are the RULES that all are supposed to follow. Clearly today not everyone follows every law. Ever spead in a car? What would be the point of calling them rules if they are not mandatory?
As I’ve already explained twice now, only the size limits portion of the Codex appear to be mandatory. And that was done at the Second Founding and the main problem Dorn had. We have absolutely no evidence that suggests that Dorn was forced to accept Guilliman tactics and organization, rather the opposite really.
I have already posted the relevant quotes right from the Mairne Codex. They explain several decrees of the Codex, then they also add the tactical guidelines and suggestions as noted in the quote itself.
Akroma06 wrote:
He refused to split his legion! Just because Guilliman said to.
Because the High Lords said so.
After the traitors of Horus and been defeated and banished the High Lords of Terra decreed that never again should so many Space Marines fall under the sway of one man, however noble his intent. Thus it was that Roboute embarked on the creation of the Space Marine Chapter. -Insignium Astartes
Dorn and co. were not against the decentralisation in general. All the forces were decentralised at that point. Army, Fleet and Astartes were separated from one another, for example. That did not concern Dorn. He was specifically unwilling to give up his own Legion.
"Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists, responsible for the defence of Terra itself, refused to have his Legion broken down into much smaller Chapters, stating that it was his sacred duty to protect the Emperor and he could not afford to split his forces across the Imperium. (...) Leman Russ of the Space Wolves and Vulkan of the Salamanders agreed with Dorn for they too did not want their Legions scattered to the corners of the galaxy (...)"Index Astartes Black Templars.
They all merely did not want to have their own Legions taken away from them, be it because of the loss of power or because of their brotherhood. They were not concerned because they thought it was the wrong strategy for the future of the Imperium. It was a personal issue. Meanwhile Guilliman himself was giving up more power than every one of his Brothers, as the Ultramarines had allways been the largest Legtion. Some of his Brothers were not prepared to do the same. Initially, at least. The Index Astartes Imperial Fists describes that Dorn himself finally got to the realisation that it was the right thing to do, and that the old times were over and the Imperial Fists now had to serve the Emperor in a different capacity.
"The Imperial Fist Chaplains teach that Dorn found strength in meditation. For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fists had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone, but they knew that he was still watching them from the Golden Throne. The Imperial Fists could no longer serve the Emperor that had been but they knew they must still be true to the Emperor that was. Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter.
[Cue Iron Cage incident]
Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead. Dorn used this time to retrain the Chapter to embrace all aspects of the Codex Astartes. (...)
The willingness of Dorn to put his initial misgivings aside and embrace the Codex Astartes reassured the High Lords of Terra. Because they were not tied to a home world and had a mobile Chapter Fortress, the Imperial Fists could be more responsive to calls for help. In particular, Rogal Dorn was more amenable ro requests from other institutions for assistance than other Primarchs, and this built a valuable store of goodwill. When the Age of Apostasy engulfed the Imperium none of the protagonists were willing to risk their good relations with the Chapter, which continued to conduct a campaign against the Ebon League unaffected. Often the Imperial Fists were able to unify the rival factions to face a local threat which would have otherwise found them divided and vulnerable."Index Astartes Imperial Fists.
It seems like Dorn had wholeheartedly embraced the Codex Astartes in the end, and the Imperial Fists were building up quite an outstanding reputation for themselves in the years following the Scouring.
Akroma06 wrote:
Which is much more than what the high lords or Guilliman did. They pushed the imperium to the brink of total war again, because 2-3 legions refused the mandates of someone who did not defend Terra.
No, because someone was refusing the dictates of the High Lords and the rest of the Imperium. If you have any sources showing that Dorn ruled the Imperium and not the High Lords, then please do cite them. Because I have provided sources showing the Emperor’s intention for normal humans to rules the Imperium and those same normal humans becoming the High Lords.Dorn was refusing to abide by Imperial decree. Technically Guilliman was right. Dorn, on the other hand, had started the argument by calling Guilliman a coward for not being at the Battle for Terra. That, in turn, was not factually accurate.
This is not a brother rebelling against another brother. This is Dorn rebelling against the Imperium and it’s rulers. And finally, Dorn relenting because it would have led to conflict was only given in the Index Astartes of the Black Templars as an explanation for why he finally agreed to divide his Legion. In the Index Astartes of the Imperial Fists it is explained that it was a vision of the Emperor that made him accept that the times were changing and that he had to adapt.
But using the ‘’did not defend Terra excuse’’ is a poor one, as I’ve already quotes a couple of pages earlier of Guilliman sending his Legion to pretty much hold the Imperium almost singlehandedly in the aftermath of the Heresy, something you have seemed to ignore.
I play Ultramarines. In fact they were my first army that I painted. But then again, when I started, it was more than 15 years ago and second edition, and there was no such thing as the Ultramarines being a "newbie army". Black Templars and Salamanders were just black/white and green/black versions of Ultramarines, and used the exact same rules, minus some special characters.
I have nothing against ultramarines, I just hate their paint job when people use ultramarine blue. It just looks like a smurf and I can't take them seriously. Crimson Fists all the way
Albeezie wrote:I have nothing against ultramarines, I just hate their paint job when people use ultramarine blue. It just looks like a smurf and I can't take them seriously. Crimson Fists all the way
Way to be original with your joke. Here, have this cookie.
Or, of course, you could try a serious opinion for a change.
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LoneLictor wrote:It seems to me like you're being the unreasonable you. If you can't acknowledge that having a utopian and fair and just society does not mesh with the Imperium in the slightest, then its impossible for this debate to achieve anything. And actually, A Thousand Sons makes the jolly Space Wolves look grimdark. They're like if you took angry people at taverns and gave them god like power; all they do is get into fights and kill innocents, with seemingly no regard for human life. Its a really good book actually, I would suggest you read it. And I'll try to get "Know No Fear."
I think you'll find that Ultramar is not a Utopia. Read some of the descriptions of life on Calth that McNeill puts in his books.
Ultramar might be run more fairly than other parts of the Imperium, but it still has to abide by Imperial Law. I think when some people say "it's a utopia," they forget that.
1d4chan is not that bad. Yes we do have some people make realy stupid comments but swift through our humor and read our short stories and you will enjoy yourself. I am a poster on 1d4chan and am currently (attempting) fixing the Necron page. So lets please avoid saying that just because our site is mainly for lulz means we have no clue what we are talking about.
I don't think anyone is saying the posters don't know what they are talking about, only that nothing on that page can be taken seriously since it's written for humorous effect and not for accuracy. Especially when it comes to the Ultramarines.
I shall be honest. For me I go from mild disregard of the Ultramarines to honest hatred due to their defenders who for unknown reasons treats me like I'm slowed, and must stuff fluff down my throat. Seriously, get a life Ultramarine-fanbois. Stop treating everyone like they haven't read the horribly written Space Marine Codex. It reeks, pure and simple.
Chowderhead wrote:Because the Boys In Blue has been given the Redicufluff by every writer ever.
To which I say who the hell cares?
Fluff doesnt equal rules.
I'm more pissed about all the band wagon players playing GK, BASW power-builds then what some meaningless story about Ultras says...
It is a misplaced and forced attempt to somehow seem cool that I never really understood when the game has far bigger problems and things to be mad about...
The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)
40kSpartan wrote:The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)
Nope. You clearly don't read the fluff, ever.
Or maybe you'd like to explain why an entire company gets it's arse handed to it in the battle of Macragge, even with supporting IG regiments.
Oh wait, not just any company but the 1st Company, whilst wearing Terminator armour. Yep.
I can understand some of the annoyance at the newer fluff, but this sort of statement is ridiculous.
40kSpartan wrote:The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)
Nope. You clearly don't read the fluff, ever.
Or maybe you'd like to explain why an entire company gets it's arse handed to it in the battle of Macragge, even with supporting IG regiments.
Oh wait, not just any company but the 1st Company, whilst wearing Terminator armour. Yep.
I can understand some of the annoyance at the newer fluff, but this sort of statement is ridiculous.
So it's ridiculous because they read fluff they thought was dumb so didn't read more of their fluff and that makes it ridiculous? seriously? That statement makes no sense. Oh well this army looks stupid lets read on! lol
40kSpartan wrote:The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)
Nope. You clearly don't read the fluff, ever. Or maybe you'd like to explain why an entire company gets it's arse handed to it in the battle of Macragge, even with supporting IG regiments. Oh wait, not just any company but the 1st Company, whilst wearing Terminator armour. Yep. I can understand some of the annoyance at the newer fluff, but this sort of statement is ridiculous.
So it's ridiculous because they read fluff they thought was dumb so didn't read more of their fluff and that makes it ridiculous? seriously? That statement makes no sense. Oh well this army looks stupid lets read on! lol
No, he was saying what he said was wrong. Can someone point me to the bit of fluff stating an Ultramarine killed 200,000 Orks? My only guess is he's talking about the game Space Marine, which has dubious claims to being fluff. Even if it was, the gameplay itself shouldn't be considered (otherwise we need to start counting tabletop games as fluff).
A lot of the hate for Ultramarines comes from taking internet hyperbole as official fluff.
The Ultramarines fought alongside the grey knights in one point of fluff then instead of warping the minds of the ultramarines they praised them. The orks cant kill a single ultramarine accourding to fluff. They never have been curropted by chaos a single time.
(Guess who is writing this fluff as well as rewriting the other fluff to shine the ultramrine army)
Also the Number one fluff writer for ultamarines is matt ward.
The battle of macrage was before matt ward and he deleted the entire thing with tyranids and made it say that the ultramarines killed every single last tyranid.
Also 90% of the people defending the ultramarines are people who plays ultrasmurfs or has played them.
The 1d4chan page on them dose shed some light on them but dose it in a funny sort of way.
Nurgle wrote:The Ultramarines fought alongside the grey knights in one point of fluff then instead of warping the minds of the ultramarines they praised them. The orks cant kill a single ultramarine accourding to fluff. They never have been curropted by chaos a single time.
We do have actual sources to support this right? Because we do have fluff of orks slaying Ultramairnes (Assualt on Black Reach) and other chapters fighting alongside Grey Knights without a mind wipe (Space Wolves)
Nurgle wrote:
Also the Number one fluff writer for ultamarines is matt ward.
No he is not. He has wrote a single Codex. Graham McNeill and Nick Kyme have written more than he has.
Nurgle wrote:
The battle of macrage was before matt ward and he deleted the entire thing with tyranids and made it say that the ultramarines killed every single last tyranid.
The Battle of Macragge is largely reprinted from earlier sources.To my knowledge Mat Ward has made no major changes to the fluff of the battle.
Nurgle wrote:
Also 90% of the people defending the ultramarines are people who plays ultrasmurfs or has played them.
So you are such an expert on the personal gaming lives of everybody on this site?
I do think the statement 90 percent of those who defend smurfs are somehow smurf fans is ridiculous. Same as blaming Mat Ward for their majority fluff. You forget their ominubus and all the bl stuff?
I'd say people hate the Ultramarines because it's cool to do so. Join the bandwagon, point out that Ultramar is like Rome in it's golden years and how that can't be true because the universe of 40k is all about nasty, gothic, depressing gak.
I think the UMs have their place in 40k. They are there to show you that there are good guys in a universe where, for all intents and purposes, there aren't any good guys.
Every SM chapter has their own place, be it a marketing ploy or some fanboy-writer's dream of epicness. In the end it's all about having fun anyway.
Nurgle wrote:The Ultramarines fought alongside the grey knights in one point of fluff then instead of warping the minds of the ultramarines they praised them. The orks cant kill a single ultramarine accourding to fluff. They never have been curropted by chaos a single time.
(Guess who is writing this fluff as well as rewriting the other fluff to shine the ultramrine army)
Actually, since the Grey Knights codex says that they're the only chapter never to have had someone be corrupted, there has been at least one Ultramarine corrupted by Chaos. Even in the Chaos codex there's a bit about how a captain in the Sons of Guilliman defected and took a solar system with him.
Ok So the people who hate ultramarines because they always win I think are being unfair. All space marines almost universally always win. They are the the super elite fighting force of an empire that conquered the galaxy and have maintained it for 10k years. If they didn't almost always win the imperium wouldn't exist.
The IoM is grimdark, because 1) there aren't enough sm to battle the overall threat to the IoM 2) their emperor is dying 3) individual life is worth nothing. It remains grimdark IMO even if part of the imperium functions well and ever are a million super elite killers running around on your side.
Nurgle wrote:The Ultramarines fought alongside the grey knights in one point of fluff then instead of warping the minds of the ultramarines they praised them. The orks cant kill a single ultramarine accourding to fluff. They never have been curropted by chaos a single time.
(Guess who is writing this fluff as well as rewriting the other fluff to shine the ultramrine army)
Again, nope. There are thousands of examples of Ultramarines dying to almosty everything ever; hell, the battle of Corinth, the Ultramarines Omnibus and various other Bl books are good examples of that. There is also a fair amount of stories concerning Ultramarines who have fallen to Chaos, so again, that statement is hyperbole.
The battle of macrage was before matt ward and he deleted the entire thing with tyranids and made it say that the ultramarines killed every single last tyranid.
Nope. He didn't.
Read it; the 1st company still dies, and so does the IG there. Yes, the Ultramarines wipe out most (though not all) of the Tyranids, but that is how you win battles against them. Basically, your problem seems to be that they didn't lose the battle to save their home system, or didn't enact a derp like the Crimson Fists.
Also 90% of the people defending the ultramarines are people who plays ultrasmurfs or has played them.
Bullcrap. There's no basis for that statement at all. That's a little like Twihards stating that 90% of people who hate on Twilight haven't read the books/watched the films and so don't know what they're talking about.
In my case, my armies have been (in this order) CSM, Orks, Space Wolves. Notice the lack of Ultramarines there?
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Draigo wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
40kSpartan wrote:The reason I hate ultramarine is because in all the fluff they are invinceible. Like 1 marine kills 200000 orks all by himself and in another marine chapter a whole company loses to a small ork force. ( am only using orks as example)
Nope. You clearly don't read the fluff, ever.
Or maybe you'd like to explain why an entire company gets it's arse handed to it in the battle of Macragge, even with supporting IG regiments.
Oh wait, not just any company but the 1st Company, whilst wearing Terminator armour. Yep.
I can understand some of the annoyance at the newer fluff, but this sort of statement is ridiculous.
So it's ridiculous because they read fluff they thought was dumb so didn't read more of their fluff and that makes it ridiculous? seriously? That statement makes no sense. Oh well this army looks stupid lets read on! lol
You'd be right if what this guy was saying actually happened in-fluff. It didn't and he's using hyperbole. Therefore it is ridiculous to claim what he claimed.
infinite_array wrote:Honestly, I go off from 'Mr. Ultramarine' himself, Graham McNeil. Sure, they're BL books, but we still get plenty of examples where someone argues against an action being taken, because it goes against the Codex.
And yet Ventris learns from Idaeus that from time to time one should violate it?
The worst part of the Omnibus, for me was:
Spoiler:
That bit when they're walking down some immense tunnel of depression that induces some marines to blow their own brains out; Ventris does some Mary Sue bull wherein he lists all the Space Marines' victories and the Daemons are like 'NOOO!' and they emerge triumphantly... made me want to vomit in disgust.
For me one of the ultimate "hates" of ultramarines came with the Necron Ghost Ark. Lo and behold a bunch of ultramarine horseshoes stuck together!!! It almost made me get ill at the thought.
To me it is like the Ultramarine propaganda artists weren't done with handling the imperium but sold the Necrons that "hey you really want this vehicle and nevermind that it is displaying the logo of the Ultramarines." It is kind of like having the doors of a Burger King in the form of the McDonald's golden arches...
DAaddict wrote:For me one of the ultimate "hates" of ultramarines came with the Necron Ghost Ark. Lo and behold a bunch of ultramarine horseshoes stuck together!!! It almost made me get ill at the thought.
To me it is like the Ultramarine propaganda artists weren't done with handling the imperium but sold the Necrons that "hey you really want this vehicle and nevermind that it is displaying the logo of the Ultramarines." It is kind of like having the doors of a Burger King in the form of the McDonald's golden arches...
Because all Us ever relate to Ultramarines.
TELL THE PEOPLE. THEY MUST KNOW.
P.s. I think you are probably joking with this comment.
anyone ever fealt something like: "it just is"???
I'm in this state in well...not hateing, but dislikeing spacesmurfs. But same goes for IG, ork and Nids. No real point, it just is.
I dislike BatltleSmurfs, mostly because well, lets see.
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.
2) The new Codex is more or less "Ultramarines" and the other guys. When most of the other guys have better stories and more to fun to paint or play or fight.
3) They are the John Cena of 40K
RicBlasko wrote:I dislike BatltleSmurfs, mostly because well, lets see.
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.
I would imagine getting to Terra would be difficult for anyone whilst the Word Bearers were in your home sector, trying their damndest to tear your home a new butthole.
Also, the Imperium as a whole came down on those two chapters. They were breaking Imperial Law by refusing the mandates of Terra. Deal with it.
RicBlasko wrote:
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.
As we have already clarified, they had no choice in the matter. The changes to the Legions into chapters were being mandated by the Imperium. Dorn and Russ were not resisting the orders of a brother, they were resisting the dicates of the Imperium.
RicBlasko wrote:I
2) The new Codex is more or less "Ultramarines" and the other guys. When most of the other guys have better stories and more to fun to paint or play or fight.
The Ultramarines a have always been the poster boys since Second Edition. That’s how it’s always been. Curiously the latest Codex actually has more information on other chapters than the previous codices. (Try finding information about the White Scars or Salamanders in the 3rd or 4th edition codices.)
RicBlasko wrote:I dislike BatltleSmurfs, mostly because well, lets see.
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.
I would imagine getting to Terra would be difficult for anyone whilst the Word Bearers were in your home sector, trying their damndest to tear your home a new butthole.
Also, the Imperium as a whole came down on those two chapters. They were breaking Imperial Law by refusing the mandates of Terra. Deal with it.
Well 10 years ago, there was no "and they were fighting off the Word Bearers" They were just else where and didnt make it in time to give a hand.
As for "getting over it" re-read the fluff. It was just not those two chapters, it was Russ, Kahn, Dorn, Vulcan. So it was almost half of the Legions that stayed loyal. And it was not a mandate from Terra, it was the madate of one Primach who wanted his way, and theaten to go to war if he didnt get it...and went as far as to have his fellow loyal Marines attacked in space. So BattleSmurf wanted his way, and threated to start another civil war...but a cheerleader for the Ultramarines would over look that.
RicBlasko wrote:
Well 10 years ago, there was no "and they were fighting off the Word Bearers" They were just else where and didnt make it in time to give a hand.
Actually that was the fluff about ten years ago when the Index Astartes articles were released. But even then it was the Ultramarines who simply did not get word until ti was too late.
RicBlasko wrote:
As for "getting over it" re-read the fluff. It was just not those two chapters, it was Russ, Kahn, Dorn, Vulcan.
Actually Khan was a Guilliman supporter, as noted in the Templar Codex and Vulkan has been retconned into a Guilliman supporter as well in Imperial Armour 10.
RicBlasko wrote:
And it was not a mandate from Terra, it was the madate of one Primach who wanted his way, and theaten to go to war if he didnt get it...and went as far as to have his fellow loyal Marines attacked in space. So BattleSmurf wanted his way, and threated to start another civil war...but a cheerleader for the Ultramarines would over look that.
It was a mandate from Terra. I have already posted quotes in this thread that explicitly state it was the High Lords who ordered it. Apparently you have not read that.
The High Lords tasked the Ultramarines Primarch Roboute Guilliman with the job of reordering the Imperial military forces.-Insignium Astartes
After the traitors of Horus and been defeated and banished the High Lords of Terra decreed that never again should so many Space Marines fall under the sway of one man, however noble his intent. Thus it was that Roboute embarked on the creation of the Space Marine Chapter. -Insignium Astartes
The newly created High Lords established the organisation of the Imperium that remains familiar to this day. The first High Lords laid down the structure by which the Adeptus Terra operates, and described the feudal responsibilities and duties of planetary lords. One of their most important accomplishments was the reorganisation of the Imperium’s armed forces. This task was undertaken almost singlehandedly by the Primarch of the Ultramarine Legion of Space Marines, Roboute Guilliman, who quickly and efficiently codified the structure of the Imperial Guard, the Fleet and the Space Marines. Of all his works the most influential is the Codex Astartes, the great prescriptive tome that lays down the basic organisational and tactical rules for Space Marines. The Horus Heresy had revealed weaknesses in the geneseed of several Space Marine Legions which had been exaggerated by the accelerated zygote harvesting techniques needed to keep the huge Space Marine Legions up to strength. The powers of Chaos exploited this growing physical and mental corruption to turn Horus’s troops against the Emperor. The prime objective of the new Codex Astartes was to recognise and expunge these weaknesses.-Codex: Space Marines
If you have a piece of fluff saying that Guilliman did this without the support of the High Lords, then please do cite it. Because I have several pieces of fluff pointing out otherwise.
RicBlasko wrote:I dislike BatltleSmurfs, mostly because well, lets see.
1) Fluff - No where near Terra when needed, they they come down on Imperal Fists, and Space Wolves (who I have no love for, after they attacked the 1000 Sons) about chapters.
I would imagine getting to Terra would be difficult for anyone whilst the Word Bearers were in your home sector, trying their damndest to tear your home a new butthole.
Also, the Imperium as a whole came down on those two chapters. They were breaking Imperial Law by refusing the mandates of Terra. Deal with it.
Well 10 years ago, there was no "and they were fighting off the Word Bearers" They were just else where and didnt make it in time to give a hand.
As for "getting over it" re-read the fluff. It was just not those two chapters, it was Russ, Kahn, Dorn, Vulcan. So it was almost half of the Legions that stayed loyal. And it was not a mandate from Terra, it was the madate of one Primach who wanted his way, and theaten to go to war if he didnt get it...and went as far as to have his fellow loyal Marines attacked in space. So BattleSmurf wanted his way, and threated to start another civil war...but a cheerleader for the Ultramarines would over look that.
One thing here: how did Vulkan oppose the chapters if he had disappeared by the time the Heresy was over?
Durza wrote:One thing here: how did Vulkan oppose the chapters if he had disappeared by the time the Heresy was over?
That’s complicated actually. We have a variety of contradictory sources on Vulkan’s fate. Some sources are claiming he disappeared at Istvaan while others are saying he was present Post-Heresy for the Codex Astartes. Right now I consider it to be a grey area.
It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.
The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point.
and to have that power, spacesmurf wasnt present, cut down, degraded, killed, massacered, chopped up, smashed in the battle for terra.
ok, they were somewhere else. So they didnt treat the bigest threat of the imperium greater then their own neads. In my eyes: HERETICS! I'm officially moveing my all out neutrality with spacemarines to hostile with smurfs...thanks for the path to enlightenment, my flamers, bolters and melta will be agressively aimed.
edit: he stepped down from being the next emperor because the original was still alive and killing the emperor would be...mmmmm....HERESY?! XD
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point.
and to have that power, spacesmurf wasnt present, cut down, degraded, killed, massacered, chopped up, smashed in the battle for terra.
ok, they were somewhere else. So they didnt treat the bigest threat of the imperium greater then their own neads. In my eyes: HERETICS! I'm officially moveing my all out neutrality with spacemarines to hostile with smurfs...thanks for the path to enlightenment, my flamers, bolters and melta will be agressively aimed.
They would not. As we have already explained several times, Know No Fear explains Warp storms as making warp travel very difficult in the Imperium. It was especially difficult for the Ultramarines as the warp storms were cast right at Calth by Erebus. In addition most of the Ultramarines fleet was shown to be destroyed at Calth. You can’t go anywhere if you don’t have a fleet.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.
The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.
There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.
Durza wrote:There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.
Ah, so in order to make everything fair Guilliman should have rounded up and executed half his Legion to ensure everybody got their fair share of chapters. What an unreasonable man.
(I am being sarcastic on the above.)
But the Second Founding happened right at the trail end of the Scouring. Guilliman didn’t do it right after the Heresy. It was at the end of the Scouring, that the Ultramarines just fought in.
I dislike the ultramarines because they are hypocrites. After everything the legions (including themselves) went through after the HH and creation of the codex astartes, thanks to Calgar and chaplain Cassius, they don't even follow their own primarch's doctrines.
I do appreciate that this meakes the Imperial Fists the most codex adherent chpater now though.
Project2501 wrote:I dislike the ultramarines because they are hypocrites. After everything the legions (including themselves) went through after the HH and creation of the codex astartes, thanks to Calgar and chaplain Cassius, they don't even follow their own primarch's doctrines.
I do appreciate that this meakes the Imperial Fists the most codex adherent chpater now though.
I’m not entirely sure your objection here. The combat doctrines of the Codex are not enforced and appear to be optional. The size limits where.
But as I pointed out earlier, the Tyrannic War Veterans have been started to be retconned so they are not a contradiction. In fact the latest FFG sourcebook has the Codex Astartes cited to support them. I would rather they be removed from fluff entirely, but now they are at least fixing it somewhat.
Project2501 wrote:I dislike the ultramarines because they are hypocrites. After everything the legions (including themselves) went through after the HH and creation of the codex astartes, thanks to Calgar and chaplain Cassius, they don't even follow their own primarch's doctrines.
I do appreciate that this meakes the Imperial Fists the most codex adherent chpater now though.
I’m not entirely sure your objection here. The combat doctrines of the Codex are not enforced and appear to be optional. The size limits where.
But as I pointed out earlier, the Tyrannic War Veterans have been started to be retconned so they are not a contradiction. In fact the latest FFG sourcebook has the Codex Astartes cited to support them. I would rather they be removed from fluff entirely, but now they are at least fixing it somewhat.
I do not understand your second sentence.
As to the retconning, to my knowledge (as wrong as it may be), FFG is neither GW nor a subsidiary, and therefore what they publish cannot be canon. If FFG is a subsidiary, then I relent my point.
Project2501 wrote:
I do not understand your second sentence.
They have retconned it. What is so hard to understand?
Or are you talking about the combat doctrines portion of the Codex? That part was not enforced. The part about ''breaking up the Legions'' was. I already adressed this earlier in the thread.
The main purpose of the Codex Astartes was to regulate Space Marines and explain their duties and privileges. Though it is more commonly known as the tome on organisational and tactical rules, that was not the reason it was created.
"The original Space Marine Legions were broken up into smaller Chapters and a code was drawn up to redefine their role and jurisdiction within the Imperium. This code was called the Codex Astartes." (5th C:SW, p. 9)
In the Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, the Codex Astartes is described in too much detail as to give a short quote, but it has several paragraphs explaining that two of the most important aspects of the Codex were the regulation of force sizes and the revised training doctrine for new recruits, and then in the final paragraph points out that the Codex also includes tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform markings. The Codex is not only a guidbook on warfare, though that was probably Guilliman's pet project during the Crusade (well, not anymore, thanks to BL). The Codex defines the rules and laws Space Marines are subject to, and their place within the Imperium as one of the Adeptus' organisations.
A lot of people who only glance over the Black Templars background get the impression that Guilliman forced all the Legions and Chapters to organize into ten Companies of ten squads, just like his own Ultramarines. But then we have the Salamanders and the Space Wolves, who aren't organized that way, or the Iron Hands who do not have any reserve companies. A lot of players do not make a distinction between the combat doctrines part of the Codex, which was mainly guidelines and suggestions, and the legislation part of the Codex, which was mandatory for all Space Marines. As a result of this Guilliman is seen as pompous and arrogant for seemingly requiring all Space Marine forces to organize and fight according to his ideas, when it was mainly the legislation, which Guilliman had devised on behest of the High Lords and as a reaction to the events of the Heresy, which was mandated and decreed to all.
You give the impression that the combat doctrine portion was mandatory and that the Ultramarines expect other chapters to operate by it.
Project2501 wrote:
As to the retconning, to my knowledge (as wrong as it may be), FFG is neither GW nor a subsidiary, and therefore what they publish cannot be canon. If FFG is a subsidiary, then I relent my point.
Note: An even more recent addition is Fantasy Flight Games, who produce the 40K roleplaying game, but even now, I’m not sure just where they stand. Like I said, this is a complicated hellhole of treachery, madness and deceit. As it stands, the official line is that there are three factions empowered to “create IP” (an exact quote), and that’s GW, BL and FW. Given that the 40KRPG is mostly made by folks working in or around the main three companies, I think it’s fair to say that its lore counts as canon, too.
This is the opinion of a Black Library author.
But in any case both the 4th Edition and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, while both referring to the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex, both also state at some point how the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter or how they are the paragon of all Codex Chapters over the Imperial Fists. So both Codices really included two contradicting elements, one of them traditional, one of them new. They cannot both be correct, so I guess it is up to the individual player whether he wants "progressive" Ultramarines with new invented special units or traditional fully Codex adherent Ultramarines.
I'm a 'Nilla Marines player - love the balance, the general ease of play and the sheer infinite ways to customize them into what you want them to look like. Great beginner army or an experienced player's force to be reckoned with.
Just hate back on the haters by beating the crap out of them!
Gree wrote:They have retconned it. What is so hard to understand?
Already addressed that, and will again.
Gree wrote:Or are you talking about the combat doctrines portion of the Codex? That part was not enforced. The part about ''breaking up the Legions'' was. I already adressed this earlier in the thread.
I was specifically referring to the breaking of codex astartes designated company orginization. Combat doctrines having been broken as well is simply 'icing on the cake'.
The reason the codex astartes was created is not under debate by me. The fact that it has since, like a great many other things in the Imperium, become a tome by which chapters are to go by and be measured against for compliance with and subsequently trustworthyness by the Imperium is the crux of my point.
I have no idea how you could have possibly inferred that I was referring to combat doctrines.
Gree wrote:It is canon.
Does FFG have a license to produce fiction for WH40k from GW? Outside of being GW or a subsidiary, that's the only way it can be canon and therefore retcon anything.
In the event that FFG does have licence from GW to produce fiction for WH40k, replete with GW logo and/or license number, the release dates of every bi of retconning would have to be verified to be after C:SM 5th edition at a minimum.
Gree wrote:But in any case both the 4th Edition and 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, while both referring to the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex, both also state at some point how the Ultramarines follow the Codex to the letter or how they are the paragon of all Codex Chapters over the Imperial Fists. So both Codices really included two contradicting elements, one of them traditional, one of them new. They cannot both be correct, so I guess it is up to the individual player whether he wants "progressive" Ultramarines with new invented special units or traditional fully Codex adherent Ultramarines.
5th edition C:SM's canon trumps any/all canon that's been changed from 4th edition C:SM. 5th edition codex space marines refers "To the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex." There is a breach. Read chaplain cassius's entry. The official view and knowledge of the rest of the imperium regarding the ultramarines is irrelevant. They have broken codex astartes orginizational structure. Therefore they are hypocrites.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.
The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.
There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.
He was already a High Lord of Terra. And there's really nothing that suggests it would have caused a civil war. Who would have opposed him? His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing), but none of them would have opposed Guilliman in armed rebellion. I've got a really long, in depth analysis of this on B&C in a thread about Know No Fear ( http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=246417&st=100&start=100 ) if you feel like reading it. But Guilliman was the "heir to the empire". All of his brothers knew it, even the ones who hated him like Lorgar, or others who were simply jealous of him. Horus was the Warmaster, because he knew the politics game and the force of personality to command the other Legions. But Guilliman was his equal in nearly all else, and surpassed every one of his brothers when it came to administration, empire building, logistics, etc. He was the superior statesman and administrator all around. He was the only primarch with the vision that could even come remotely close to comparing to the Emperor's.
Some of his brothers probably wouldn't have liked it (I feel it's reasonable to assume they tried to convince him to give up his control on the High Lords, which he ultimately did), but if he'd taken over in his father's absence, they wouldn't have gone to war over it. After all, Guilliman was the only one who would have had the patience to do it anyway. Russ just wanted to kill things; he wasn't going to be running an empire. Dorn was off crusadisizing. Corax and Vulkan never seemed to have high minded aspirations. They probably would have secretly welcomed Guilliman taking the reigns because it would limit his ability to steal their glory as a war leader (he'd be too busy being Emperor), and they wouldn't have had to do it, and more importantly, wouldn't have had to deal with petty, short sighted humans running the show. I mean, look how bad the Imperium turned out in the absence of the Emperor...
Yeah, a lot of the way the Codex seems like it was handled benefits the Ultramarines, but your assumption that Guilliman timed it to make himself the most powerful is way off base and groundless. The Ultramarines were twice again larger than even the second largest legion before the Heresy, got mauled by the Word Bearers during the Calth Treachery, and still rebuilt themselves to again be roughly 2/3rds of the total Space Marines. At what point were the other Legions going to catch up? It's actually more reasonable to assume that by doing it when he did, Guilliman prevented the Ultramarines from being and even larger percentage of the total Space Marines. Their training and recruiting infrastructure was apparently light years ahead of the other Legions.
Project2501 wrote:
I was specifically referring to the breaking of codex astartes designated company orginization. Combat doctrines having been broken as well is simply 'icing on the cake'.
The Tyrannic War Veterans were described as a diverging from the Codex tennets, but not as a newly formed force. So it seems that they are still squads of the First Company. but with the new fluff the Codex is now cited as precedent for their formation and they no longer break the Codex.
Project2501 wrote:
Does FFG have a license to produce fiction for WH40k from GW? Outside of being GW or a subsidiary, that's the only way it can be canon and therefore retcon anything.
Of course they have a license. If they did not they would be sued for copyright infringement.
Project2501 wrote:
In the event that FFG does have licence from GW to produce fiction for WH40k, replete with GW logo and/or license number, the release dates of every bi of retconning would have to be verified to be after C:SM 5th edition at a minimum.
Deathwatch: First Founding was released only a few months ago, if that changes your opinion. That is the sourcebook I refer to.
Project2501 wrote:
5th edition C:SM's canon trumps any/all canon that's been changed from 4th edition C:SM. 5th edition codex space marines refers "To the Tyrannic War Veterans as a breach from the tenets of the Codex."
No it does not necessarily trump older fluff. Buty if you are taking newer fluff as canon then Deathwatch: First Founding does the opposite and cites the Codex as a precedent for the creation of the Tyranid Hunters.
Project2501 wrote:
There is a breach. Read chaplain cassius's entry. The official view and knowledge of the rest of the imperium regarding the ultramarines is irrelevant. They have broken codex astartes orginizational structure. Therefore they are hypocrites.
How are they hyopocrites when we have new fluff detailing the opposite?
While the Tyrannic War Veterans tutor others in their knowledge they seek to learn more of the Tyranids. It was the Codex Astartes that provided inspiration for had not Roboute Guilliman committed his wisdom and experience to its pages so that others might learn from his example?-p.69-Deathwatch: First Founding.
If it pleases you then such fluff effectively retcons what we had before.
Milisim wrote:Oblivious is right SM are truly the worlds most boring armies... The suits look dull, they are boring as hell to paint etc...
The difference between fast attack, elites, heavy support marines is the helmet is a different colour etc.... Whoopie doo.
Terminators are just FAT Marines nothing interesting at all....
Land raiders are just big rhinos and razorbacks are just rhinos with a gun on top etc.....
The whole SM breed is dull....
I might be biased though since I play only Xenos =]
Thanks, I'll go throw away my Crimson Fists company, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Chaos Marines. Thanks for showing me the error of my ways!
So outside of opinions taken to awful heights in this thread, I'll get on topic. Ultramarines are "hated" because they're on the box art, and have been since the mid-late nineties. They're the most vanilla Space Marine chapter, and are seen as the posterboys, as so far as to literally be on the posters. There's this stigma that only noobs play them and paint their Marines that way, but precious few players actually paint their Marines as Ultramarines. It's an attractive scheme and can look wonderful in the hands of a good painter.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.
The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.
There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.
He was already a High Lord of Terra. And there's really nothing that suggests it would have caused a civil war. Who would have opposed him? His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)
Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is
Gree wrote: The Tyrannic War Veterans were described as a diverging from the Codex tennets, but not as a newly formed force. So it seems that they are still squads of the First Company. but with the new fluff the Codex is now cited as precedent for their formation and they no longer break the Codex.
so you are part of an organisation, but just because you are in a separate subforce of the organisation, you dont have to follow the rules, although you are still a part of the greater whole and not a separate organisation. Does that only sound stupid to me?
"I'm a part of the first company, but im fluff, so i dont have to follow codex astartes..." - dont increase my bulets size for spacesmurfs
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.
The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.
There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.
He was already a High Lord of Terra. And there's really nothing that suggests it would have caused a civil war. Who would have opposed him? His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)
Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is
Technically, the legions on Terra would have lost if not for an insane gambit by the Emperor. Their tenacity had little to do with it.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It is quite amusing how those with incredibly weak arguments just automatically assume you're some die hard Ultramarines player and try to strawman your argument using that as a derogatory term.
The one thing that nobody ever takes into account is that the Primarch who gave up the largest amount of power by splitting the Legions was Guilliman himself. The Ultramarines represented more than 60% of the total Marines at that point. His sacrifice in splitting the Legions was greater than all the other primarchs put together. He was also a High Lord of Terra, and could have been the next Emperor if he wanted to be, but he stepped down from that too.
There is no way Guilliman could have become the next Emperor without sparking a massive civil war. And in making the 'sacrifice' of splitting his legion, he not only ensured that the Ultramarines got the most chapters, but also ensured it would stay like that by doing it before any other legions got to rebuild their losses.
He was already a High Lord of Terra. And there's really nothing that suggests it would have caused a civil war. Who would have opposed him? His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)
Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is
Well, I don't know about the others, but I do know that Rogal Dorn's wounded pride damn near got his legion killed in the Iron Cage incident. Just sayin'.
Gree wrote: The Tyrannic War Veterans were described as a diverging from the Codex tennets, but not as a newly formed force. So it seems that they are still squads of the First Company. but with the new fluff the Codex is now cited as precedent for their formation and they no longer break the Codex.
so you are part of an organisation, but just because you are in a separate subforce of the organisation, you dont have to follow the rules, although you are still a part of the greater whole and not a separate organisation. Does that only sound stupid to me?
"I'm a part of the first company, but im fluff, so i dont have to follow codex astartes..." - dont increase my bulets size for spacesmurfs
But they do follow the Codex Astartes now. I just provided the relevant quote from the sourcebook that actually cited the Codex as a precedent for creating them. Hence why I said they retconned them. Did you read my entire post? The original deviation, as I pointed out, was a change in training and preperation, but how they organized themselves. But that has been retconned now.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)
Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is
No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.
I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.
Durza wrote:
Technically, the legions on Terra would have lost if not for an insane gambit by the Emperor. Their tenacity had little to do with it.
The other way around. The loyalist had reinforcements coming that was going to secure victory for them. Horus made an insane gambit by dropping the shields of his ship knowing the Emperor would come and challenge him.
Durza wrote:
Technically, the legions on Terra would have lost if not for an insane gambit by the Emperor. Their tenacity had little to do with it.
The other way around. The loyalist had reinforcements coming that was going to secure victory for them. Horus made an insane gambit by dropping the shields of his ship knowing the Emperor would come and challenge him.
Galdos is completely right. The siege of Terra went wrong for the traitors in pretty much every way it could. It was turning into a rout.
At best it would have been a win for Horus, at worst it would have been a loss for both Horus and the Imperium.
The fluff has made it pretty clear that Horus was basically lodged right up the Emperor's ass and about to deliver the death blow when his ship's shields went off for unknown reasons (I still love the theory of an Eldar strike force sabotaging them, personally).
The point being, even if the three legions had arrived in time to defeat what was left of Horus' forces, they wouldn't have got there in time to save the Emperor.
Crazyterran wrote:I play Ultramarines 4th Company, and did before they had a book about them.
And then they became popular, now I want to go to 3rd company, but painting that banner would be to much work.
I secretly hate Second Company, of course, because of Sicarius' ability to steal the spotlight and screw over Agemman.
I actually have never understood why people say Ultramarines are "popular". I have NEVER seen an actual ultramarines army in my 12 years of playing this game. Somehow Ultramarines are both the "most common" and "most elusive" chapter I have ever heard of.
When I see a marine army they are never blue. The only blue marines I have seen are store demos and on GWs page. There was a fully painted ultramarine army in a display case at a GW that was won by someone over a summer campaign, however I never saw him field it after that. Every marine army I see is one of the following. Base coated black and "a work in progress" and they stay that way for years. Has one squad painted as salamanders, has terminator in yellow armor leading a squad in red and is generally all over the place. Or is green. It is an incredibly rarity that I see anything different. (Though I have seen a fully painted imperial fist army and I felt bad after every kill because he had to remove one of his gorgeous paint jobs, that yellow is stupid hard to paint.)
Sure I have seen an army of marine "torsos and legs on bases" that is supposedly lead by the only finished model who is representing calgar or sicarius. But 3 months later those torsos grew arms with melta guns and calgar has changed his name to vulkan.
Anyways my point is that while I might not like the ultramarines in the fluff. (They are no where near the abomination that is the GK) When it comes to everyone refusing to paint their models blue because they want to be different I just shake my head.
BlaxicanX wrote:
The fluff has made it pretty clear that Horus was basically lodged right up the Emperor's ass and about to deliver the death blow when his ship's shields went off for unknown reasons (I still love the theory of an Eldar strike force sabotaging them, personally).
What are you talking about? Emperor didn't want to kill Horus even if he received deadly wound from him. Only when Horus killed Pius ( feth you GW and your removal of cool characters ) did the Emperor use his full power and killed Horus. Horus deliberately lower down his shields to try to kill Emperor in 1 on 1 combat because it was his only way out of there.
Read Horus Heresy...
The point being, even if the three legions had arrived in time to defeat what was left of Horus' forces, they wouldn't have got there in time to save the Emperor.
True, but if Emperor remained on Terra and hold out a little longer Horus woul have to deal with over 250.000 Space Marines and he lacked troops for that.
Crazyterran wrote:I play Ultramarines 4th Company, and did before they had a book about them.
And then they became popular, now I want to go to 3rd company, but painting that banner would be to much work.
I secretly hate Second Company, of course, because of Sicarius' ability to steal the spotlight and screw over Agemman.
I actually have never understood why people say Ultramarines are "popular". I have NEVER seen an actual ultramarines army in my 12 years of playing this game. Somehow Ultramarines are both the "most common" and "most elusive" chapter I have ever heard of.
When I see a marine army they are never blue. The only blue marines I have seen are store demos and on GWs page. There was a fully painted ultramarine army in a display case at a GW that was won by someone over a summer campaign, however I never saw him field it after that. Every marine army I see is one of the following. Base coated black and "a work in progress" and they stay that way for years. Has one squad painted as salamanders, has terminator in yellow armor leading a squad in red and is generally all over the place. Or is green. It is an incredibly rarity that I see anything different. (Though I have seen a fully painted imperial fist army and I felt bad after every kill because he had to remove one of his gorgeous paint jobs, that yellow is stupid hard to paint.)
Sure I have seen an army of marine "torsos and legs on bases" that is supposedly lead by the only finished model who is representing calgar or sicarius. But 3 months later those torsos grew arms with melta guns and calgar has changed his name to vulkan.
Anyways my point is that while I might not like the ultramarines in the fluff. (They are no where near the abomination that is the GK) When it comes to everyone refusing to paint their models blue because they want to be different I just shake my head.
Yeah, there's only one other guy i've seen at my local GW play Ultramarines, and he plays 4th Company too.
There used to be 3-4 guys, but i guess they've movedon.
I persoanlly hate fielding models that are unpainted, but i might have to for the 25th Anniversary this weekend. Repainting my army to match my current standards is a lot of work. (Not to mention i had my wisdom teeth pulled this week too, and that has removed almost a day of painting.)
Brother Coa wrote:What are you talking about? Emperor didn't want to kill Horus even if he received deadly wound from him. Only when Horus killed Pius ( feth you GW and your removal of cool characters ) did the Emperor use his full power and killed Horus. Horus deliberately lower down his shields to try to kill Emperor in 1 on 1 combat because it was his only way out of there.
Read Horus Heresy...
I'm not talking about when the Emperor got on the ship; I'm referring to before that when he was still on Terra.
True, but if Emperor remained on Terra and hold out a little longer Horus woul have to deal with over 250.000 Space Marines and he lacked troops for that.
The point is that he wouldn't have been able too. Horus' forces had fethed up Terra's defenses so badly that warping onto Horus' ship was the only thing he icould do to survive. There was no other option.
Which speaks to the sheer convenience of Horus' shields dropping. If he had decided to keep his shields up and just bombard the Emperor's location from orbit, there's nothing the Emperor would have been able to do to survive.
DarkWind wrote:This is something I have always wondered. Since I first started the game I have always wanted to field a Ultramarine army, but due to peoples personal opinion and my pathetic need to be accepted by everyone I never touched them. Now I'm finally over that I'm going forward to build a Ultramarine army.
So now to my question... Why do people hate them so?
BlaxicanX wrote:The fluff has made it pretty clear
Actually, the fluff has changed on this story, and is certain to change again because the guys at Black Library feel like they have to put their mushroom stamp on everything instead of just using what already exists, lol.
But the story has also been both that Horus lowered his shields so he could watch the final defeat of the Emperor, and the Emperor sensed it and teleported aboard, and the alternate that Horus had lowered his shields on purpose to lure the Emperor aboard.
BlaxicanX wrote:The point is that he wouldn't have been able too. Horus' forces had fethed up Terra's defenses so badly that warping onto Horus' ship was the only thing he icould do to survive. There was no other option.
Which speaks to the sheer convenience of Horus' shields dropping. If he had decided to keep his shields up and just bombard the Emperor's location from orbit, there's nothing the Emperor would have been able to do to survive.
There is nothing to suggest that Horus had the ability to simply bombard Imperial Palace into rubble at any point. The Void Shields protecting against orbital bombardment may have been separate from ones primarily protecting against ground assaults. The only way in for the Traitors has been portrayed as on the ground. They didn't have enough time to penetrate the Throne Room before the Loyalist reinforcements caught up and hit them hammer and anvil style. Even if Horus had the opportunity to bombard the defenders at lesiure it's still unlikely he could have survived the counterattack from the Loyalist reinforcements. Horus bet everything on one final strike and he failed. He had the advantages of surprise and the backing of the Chaos Gods but his forces, aside from Daemons, were outnumbered by the total number of the Loyalists.
DarthSpader wrote:i think mainly it has to do with GW selecting the ultrasmurfs as the poster boy for the hobby. thus, any new players tend to go for the marines, (as these often star in demo games and painting lessons) simply because of the above, the fact they are "easy" to build, painting is also a touch simpler, and they are the "good guys" of the galaxy. the blue ones are also on the box covers, and so on, so obviously newer players who dont really have an idea for their own chapter will paint them blue. that and blue is a pretty easy color to paint. white,red,yellow etc all require multiple thin layers and are more complex to do right, then a 1 coat done blue.
this leads to a horde of 12-15 yr olds playing the ultra marines, and obviously they are less superioir in gaming then you - who has IG/GK/DE/eldar/chaos etc.... so they get looked down on.
a local saying here: "if you see a 13 yr old boy in a gaming store he's either playing yugioh or ultramarines"
i thnk it applies worldwide and no doubt is used on many other locations - because its true.
This. They receive so much attention from GW, as well as being so vanilla and plain and even boring really, that the other chapters are almost ignored.
Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:The point is that he wouldn't have been able too. Horus' forces had fethed up Terra's defenses so badly that warping onto Horus' ship was the only thing he icould do to survive. There was no other option.
Which speaks to the sheer convenience of Horus' shields dropping. If he had decided to keep his shields up and just bombard the Emperor's location from orbit, there's nothing the Emperor would have been able to do to survive.
There is nothing to suggest that Horus had the ability to simply bombard Imperial Palace into rubble at any point. The Void Shields protecting against orbital bombardment may have been separate from ones primarily protecting against ground assaults. The only way in for the Traitors has been portrayed as on the ground. They didn't have enough time to penetrate the Throne Room before the Loyalist reinforcements caught up and hit them hammer and anvil style. Even if Horus had the opportunity to bombard the defenders at lesiure it's still unlikely he could have survived the counterattack from the Loyalist reinforcements. Horus bet everything on one final strike and he failed. He had the advantages of surprise and the backing of the Chaos Gods but his forces, aside from Daemons, were outnumbered by the total number of the Loyalists.
exactly. They landed forces because of nearby captured spaceports, nothing to do with the IP voids going down.
im2randomghgh wrote:
This. They receive so much attention from GW, as well as being so vanilla and plain and even boring really, that the other chapters are almost ignored.
Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.
maybe we are an exception, but in my town, this doesnt happen. Maybe because in Hungary, every child has about 2k Forints of pocket money per weak, and a regular battleforce cost 21k+ w out the equipment to make them a good lookin army - we usually use gf's nail paint for base black coating
im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.
That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.
im2randomghgh wrote:
This. They receive so much attention from GW, as well as being so vanilla and plain and even boring really, that the other chapters are almost ignored.
Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.
maybe we are an exception, but in my town, this doesnt happen. Maybe because in Hungary, every child has about 2k Forints of pocket money per weak, and a regular battleforce cost 21k+ w out the equipment to make them a good lookin army - we usually use gf's nail paint for base black coating
Obviously have their parents buy it, nowhere in the world are normal children rich enough to buy a full 40k army without help.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Plus, every child to ever walk into a GW ever has left with an ultramarine army.
That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.
There are 7 ultrasmurfs armies at my FLGS, and only one of them is owned by a player old enough to drive.
I love playing UM. I've got the entire 2nd Company (painted), most of the 1st, and a squad of 3rd tacts (check my gallery photos and my army in the Army Profiles section).
There's such a low expectation when I unpack my blues and I love that. My record speaks for itself. Almost all of those are blind tournament games too.
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.
There are 7 ultrasmurfs armies at my FLGS, and only one of them is owned by a player old enough to drive.
Seems more like yours is the exception rather than the rule.
I've found these to be pretty typical in my area. I don't get the hate for UM, it should be for the unpainted gray SW/BA/BT armies that actually do dominate the metagame
Lobukia wrote:BT armies that actually do dominate the metagame
No.
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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.
There are 7 ultrasmurfs armies at my FLGS, and only one of them is owned by a player old enough to drive.
Seems more like yours is the exception rather than the rule.
I know mine is an extreme example, but I have been to other GW and noticed similar (though less extreme) occurrences of this "10yr old magnet" effect the UM have.
im2randomghgh wrote:Obviously have their parents buy it, nowhere in the world are normal children rich enough to buy a full 40k army without help.
i wont bother anyone with the details, but no, not even two parents can afford a single battle force for one child, so by the time you get to play wh40k, you are old enough to not be magneted in to fluffy gloryhounds collection.
the only time i saw a spacesmurf was at a local house tournament, and although he did a good job at painting it in a dull manner - can you do it otherwise?? - he brought a list that would devastate all GEQ...well except for my mech'dar that speedid the poo out of him. it realy wasnt his fault, but when i saw that gloryhound army, i almost had to talk to the organiser to let me play against it, as did everyone else
Lobukia wrote:BT armies that actually do dominate the metagame
No.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:That's funny, in my years of playing the game, I've only ever seen one Ultramarine army, and it was owned by a veteran player who liked the colour scheme.
I certainly didn't walk out with an Ultramarine army the first time I entered a GW store. They looked (and still look, come to think of it) an awful lot like Word Bearers to me.
Crappily painted Word Bearers, but that's beside the point.
There are 7 ultrasmurfs armies at my FLGS, and only one of them is owned by a player old enough to drive.
Seems more like yours is the exception rather than the rule.
I know mine is an extreme example, but I have been to other GW and noticed similar (though less extreme) occurrences of this "10yr old magnet" effect the UM have.
Well my 10 y.o. hates them with a passion, he says they are up themselves, comes from the whole "Ultra" thing. LOL So he chose to do Salamanders
Tthe blue looks cool for sure but maybe they are a bit boring and mainstream because most things are shown in UM colours?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: His brothers? I think you misjudge them. They were all petty, arrogant, prideful dickbags (seems like it came with the territory of being a semi-divine superbeing)
Dick-bags?
So you're saying that the legions that fought at the siege of Terra AND WON are Dick-Bags, correct? I'd just like to make it clear that had those dick-bags not been prideful and tenacious and fallen back, then Horus and his entourage would've come gallavanting down to ultramar and shown you what a true ass-kicking is
No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.
I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.
I agree with most of this, I have read all of the HH books and I have to say that I think most of the Primarchs had major issues. Dorn has the nobility and honour and discipline that I like, but even he comes across as a bit of a douche, like when he goes ape gak at Garro and says hes going to kill him because he hears something he doesnt like?
It might be controversial to say it, but after reading them all so far I think following everyones favourite (Sanguinius) Gulliman is actually my favourite, maybe Corax as well, but Ive not read the newest two books yet.
He may be arrogant, but he understands duty and honour and nobility. I much prefer him to the macho BS types of the Lion, Perturabo, Russ, and well.. all of the chaos ones who pretty much seem to boil down to "Daddy doesnt love me enough"
Especially night haunter! He reminds me of my missus annoying goth brother.
im2randomghgh wrote:Obviously have their parents buy it, nowhere in the world are normal children rich enough to buy a full 40k army without help.
i wont bother anyone with the details, but no, not even two parents can afford a single battle force for one child, so by the time you get to play wh40k, you are old enough to not be magneted in to fluffy gloryhounds collection.
the only time i saw a spacesmurf was at a local house tournament, and although he did a good job at painting it in a dull manner - can you do it otherwise?? - he brought a list that would devastate all GEQ...well except for my mech'dar that speedid the poo out of him. it realy wasnt his fault, but when i saw that gloryhound army, i almost had to talk to the organiser to let me play against it, as did everyone else
You think that two 40hr/week salaries are insufficient to purchase a single battleforce? lolwut?
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No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.
I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.
Fulgrim was possessed.
Lorgar turned because of his need to believe in a higher power.
Horus was lied to.
Dorn punched Garro because Garro accused his brother (see: BROTHER) of the more horrific crimes Dorn could have ever imagined. But Dorn showed more restraint than any other space marine or primarch ever would have because he pulled the punch and listened to the evidence.
I know mine is an extreme example, but I have been to other GW and noticed similar (though less extreme) occurrences of this "10yr old magnet" effect the UM have.
Hmmm, interesting. From my experiences, I'd say that the prevalence of UM armies was more a geographical thing than an overall trend. The GW stores I've been to lacked any UM armies, bar one or two overall. Maybe they're more common in some areas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Fulgrim was possessed.
Lorgar turned because of his need to believe in a higher power.
Horus was lied to.
Dorn punched Garro because Garro accused his brother (see: BROTHER) of the more horrific crimes Dorn could have ever imagined. But Dorn showed more restraint than any other space marine or primarch ever would have because he pulled the punch and listened to the evidence.
That makes the bold part hilarious.
Although Peturabo was a chump, and I say that as a fan of the IW. Way to be paranoid there, Boss Iron Warrior.
Also, Kurze is quite clearly a psychopath; he's obsessed with crime and punishment, and sees order as something that only comes at the expense of a few lives.
Though there are obvious nods to Batman in his character (hello, Bat symbol) the two are completely unalike in methodology. Kurze is more like the lovechild of Bats and the Punisher.
No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.
I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.
Fulgrim was possessed.
Lorgar turned because of his need to believe in a higher power.
Horus was lied to.
Dorn punched Garro because Garro accused his brother (see: BROTHER) of the more horrific crimes Dorn could have ever imagined. But Dorn showed more restraint than any other space marine or primarch ever would have because he pulled the punch and listened to the evidence.
That makes the bold part hilarious.
Your post reminds me of that scene from Billy Madison after Adam Sandler gives an entirely nonsensical and irrelevant answer to a question. Fulgrim was possessed after he was corrupted. You seemed to have missed quite a bit about Lorgar while you were "reading", lol. That's only a small part of why he turned. Searching for higher powers only led him to find Chaos, it wasn't causal. Horus was lied to? Sure. That's all the Chaos Gods do is lie. Heck, they even admit it in Aurelian, and Lorgar still bought their story. Chaos lied to Horus and played on all of his insecurities. So, pretty much exactly what I said.
No, I'm saying that all of the primarchs were petty and arrogant. As someone who is both arrogant, and a dick-bag, I can identify my own kind. I'm just not as petty as them. I mean, look at the lore. Half of the primarchs fell to Chaos, the majority of them over pride or other failings. Horus and Fulgrim for sure. Lorgar has enough emotional issues to fill a news-stand, but ultimately it was his pride and petty hatred of Guilliman that led him astray. The loyalists weren't much better. In Deliverance Lost, Corax feels like he might have been able to kill both Kurze, and Lorgar (whom Corax called "worthless" lol) at the same time.
I think, no wait, I know, that you're confused. I'm not writing this as an Ultramarines fan. Just a 40K fan objectively analyzing and identifying characters. So you can drop the "first person" speech. Nobody in 40K would have ever shown me what a true ass kicking is, because they're all imaginary. What I think I need to make clear is that you need to do closer readings before you respond.
Fulgrim was possessed.
Lorgar turned because of his need to believe in a higher power.
Horus was lied to.
Dorn punched Garro because Garro accused his brother (see: BROTHER) of the more horrific crimes Dorn could have ever imagined. But Dorn showed more restraint than any other space marine or primarch ever would have because he pulled the punch and listened to the evidence.
That makes the bold part hilarious.
Your post reminds me of that scene from Billy Madison after Adam Sandler gives an entirely nonsensical and irrelevant answer to a question. Fulgrim was possessed after he was corrupted. You seemed to have missed quite a bit about Lorgar while you were "reading", lol. That's only a small part of why he turned. Searching for higher powers only led him to find Chaos, it wasn't causal. Horus was lied to? Sure. That's all the Chaos Gods do is lie. Heck, they even admit it in Aurelian, and Lorgar still bought their story. Chaos lied to Horus and played on all of his insecurities. So, pretty much exactly what I said.
No, he wasn't. He was corrupted the second he acquired the Laer sword. He was possessed later, but he was never willfully fighting against the IoM. It went from him being influenced and not knowing he was influenced, to him basically being ejected from his body.
I missed nothing. Lorgar is a priest. That is his entire persona. He desperately needed gods to worship, and without the obvious choice of the Emperor, he chose a religion he was familiar with: the old religion of his home planet, which was chaos undivided.
Lying is not all the chaos gods do. They manipulate the truth, tell half-lies, and seduce. They rarely just present straight up bs like this to someone. Empty promises are their favourite tool, not bs.
So absolutely not what you said, at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though there are obvious nods to Batman in his character (hello, Bat symbol) the two are completely unalike in methodology. Kurze is more like the lovechild of Bats and the Punisher.
That's exactly what I was thinking reading your post, and then I saw that at the bottom and I tripped out.
It's a good thing I read it to the end before replying or it would have been awkward.
im2randomghgh wrote:
No, he wasn't. He was corrupted the second he acquired the Laer sword. He was possessed later, but he was never willfully fighting against the IoM. It went from him being influenced and not knowing he was influenced, to him basically being ejected from his body.
Picking up a Daemon-sword doesn't instantly corrupt you. If nothing else, Crowe proves that. He did choose to fight the Imperium - Istvaan III occurred before he was possessed, and he was still willing to see the Loyalist Legions get butchered until he ended up against Manus face-to-face and had a crisis of conscience. His friendship stayed his hand in his fight with Manus, not loyalty to the Imperium or the Emperor. Fulgrim's fall was of his own choosing. Whether or not he could've found redemption had he not fallen for what the Daemon said (who flat out lied to him) and given it control is another matter. He had to willingly let the Daemon in, after all.
im2randomghgh wrote:
No, he wasn't. He was corrupted the second he acquired the Laer sword. He was possessed later, but he was never willfully fighting against the IoM. It went from him being influenced and not knowing he was influenced, to him basically being ejected from his body.
Picking up a Daemon-sword doesn't instantly corrupt you. If nothing else, Crowe proves that. He did choose to fight the Imperium - Istvaan III occurred before he was possessed, and he was still willing to see the Loyalist Legions get butchered until he ended up against Manus face-to-face and had a crisis of conscience. His friendship stayed his hand in his fight with Manus, not loyalty to the Imperium or the Emperor. Fulgrim's fall was of his own choosing. Whether or not he could've found redemption had he not fallen for what the Daemon said (who flat out lied to him) and given it control is another matter. He had to willingly let the Daemon in, after all.
He did not let the daemon in. He did not know he had a daemon. The daemon subtly wormed it's way into him, and even before possession he was it's puppet. It spoke to him, and he assumed the thoughts were his own, so he obeyed. Did you read Fulgrim? When he was fighting Ferrus he had an "oh, feth! Those weren't my thoughts" moment, and the sword took control.
Though there are obvious nods to Batman in his character (hello, Bat symbol) the two are completely unalike in methodology. Kurze is more like the lovechild of Bats and the Punisher.
That's exactly what I was thinking reading your post, and then I saw that at the bottom and I tripped out.
It's a good thing I read it to the end before replying or it would have been awkward.
They say great minds think alike, you know.
That might apply to minds that enjoy arguing about the differences between toy soldiers and virtual scifi men too, but I prefer to assume we're both simply great.
Though there are obvious nods to Batman in his character (hello, Bat symbol) the two are completely unalike in methodology. Kurze is more like the lovechild of Bats and the Punisher.
That's exactly what I was thinking reading your post, and then I saw that at the bottom and I tripped out.
It's a good thing I read it to the end before replying or it would have been awkward.
They say great minds think alike, you know.
That might apply to minds that enjoy arguing about the differences between toy soldiers and virtual scifi men too, but I prefer to assume we're both simply great.
It is straight fact!
BTW punisher with a bolter=the end of civilization.
The Crusader wrote:Ah, but Crowe is incorruptable.
Which proves that a Daemon-sword does not instantly corrupt those wielding it.
im2randomghgh wrote:He did not let the daemon in. He did not know he had a daemon. The daemon subtly wormed it's way into him, and even before possession he was it's puppet. It spoke to him, and he assumed the thoughts were his own, so he obeyed. Did you read Fulgrim? When he was fighting Ferrus he had an "oh, feth! Those weren't my thoughts" moment, and the sword took control.
It talked to him. He didn't realise it, but you don't have to follow the thoughts you have anyway. I've thought various terrible actions I could theoretically undertake but that I don't want to nor have the motivation to do so. He wasn't a puppet before his possession. He still had free will. The Daemon couldn't just dominate him, that's why Fulgrim had to let it in after he killed Manus.
When he was fighting Manus he had a crisis of conscience because he didn't want to kill the brother he was closer to and he realised he had been played (to an extent, at least). Had he been in his right mind, in a normal situation, I doubt the Daemon would have been able to control him even for the second (or less) it did to kill Manus. His arm was forced for at most a second. Until that point everything had been his decision. Letting the Daemon take full control was his (extremely selfish) decision.
The Crusader wrote:Ah, but Crowe is incorruptable.
Which proves that a Daemon-sword does not instantly corrupt those wielding it.
im2randomghgh wrote:He did not let the daemon in. He did not know he had a daemon. The daemon subtly wormed it's way into him, and even before possession he was it's puppet. It spoke to him, and he assumed the thoughts were his own, so he obeyed. Did you read Fulgrim? When he was fighting Ferrus he had an "oh, feth! Those weren't my thoughts" moment, and the sword took control.
It talked to him. He didn't realise it, but you don't have to follow the thoughts you have anyway. I've thought various terrible actions I could theoretically undertake but that I don't want to nor have the motivation to do so. He wasn't a puppet before his possession. He still had free will. The Daemon couldn't just dominate him, that's why Fulgrim had to let it in after he killed Manus.
When he was fighting Manus he had a crisis of conscience because he didn't want to kill the brother he was closer to and he realised he had been played (to an extent, at least). Had he been in his right mind, in a normal situation, I doubt the Daemon would have been able to control him even for the second (or less) it did to kill Manus. His arm was forced for at most a second. Until that point everything had been his decision. Letting the Daemon take full control was his (extremely selfish) decision.
It had NOTHING to do with a crisis of conscience! It is like how the king of Rohan was being manipulated in LotR!
The Crusader wrote:Ah, but Crowe is incorruptable.
Which proves that a Daemon-sword does not instantly corrupt those wielding it.
There's kind of a difference between someone who hasn't even been told that daemons exist picking up a sword and listening to the ever-darker thoughts that he thinks are his own and someone specifically trained to fight daemons using a daemon blade when he knows what it is and what it can do. The difference being that the second guy should know better
im2randomghgh wrote:He did not let the daemon in. He did not know he had a daemon. The daemon subtly wormed it's way into him, and even before possession he was it's puppet. It spoke to him, and he assumed the thoughts were his own, so he obeyed. Did you read Fulgrim? When he was fighting Ferrus he had an "oh, feth! Those weren't my thoughts" moment, and the sword took control.
It talked to him. He didn't realise it, but you don't have to follow the thoughts you have anyway. I've thought various terrible actions I could theoretically undertake but that I don't want to nor have the motivation to do so. He wasn't a puppet before his possession. He still had free will. The Daemon couldn't just dominate him, that's why Fulgrim had to let it in after he killed Manus.
When he was fighting Manus he had a crisis of conscience because he didn't want to kill the brother he was closer to and he realised he had been played (to an extent, at least). Had he been in his right mind, in a normal situation, I doubt the Daemon would have been able to control him even for the second (or less) it did to kill Manus. His arm was forced for at most a second. Until that point everything had been his decision. Letting the Daemon take full control was his (extremely selfish) decision.
Except he didn't know what the daemon was going to do. It offered oblivion and he accepted. Considering that he had just killed his brother and best or second best friend with what he had intended to be a warning shot of sorts, and that he had just realised he'd led his own legion into corruption, that's pretty understandable, especially considering that it would probably be pretty damn hard for a primarch to kill himself with their regenerative abilities and whatnot. I also don't see how it would have been a selfish move even if he had known what he was going to do. Setting yourself up for an eternity of torture is selfish in the books of very few people.
im2randomghgh wrote:
It had NOTHING to do with a crisis of conscience! It is like how the king of Rohan was being manipulated in LotR!
It had everything to do with a crisis of conscience. The Daemon had no real power over Fulgrim, Fulgrim just decided that he wasn't willing to go far enough to continue in the rebellion (for that moment, at least. Whether or not he would've changed his mind again is unknown). I can't actually remember what Saruman did to Theoden in the books to be honest, and I'm not going to go by the films because they went against the books in many ways.
Durza wrote:There's kind of a difference between someone who hasn't even been told that daemons exist picking up a sword and listening to the ever-darker thoughts that he thinks are his own and someone specifically trained to fight daemons using a daemon blade when he knows what it is and what it can do. The difference being that the second guy should know better
I know there's a difference. But it still proves that Fulgrim wasn't corrupted as soon as he picked up the Laer sword. Also, listening to the thoughts was still his own decision. I have dark thoughts from time to time. I don't act on them. Fulgrim still had free will (aside from the second when the Daemon forced his arm to kill Manus).
Except he didn't know what the daemon was going to do. It offered oblivion and he accepted. Considering that he had just killed his brother and best or second best friend with what he had intended to be a warning shot of sorts, and that he had just realised he'd led his own legion into corruption, that's pretty understandable, especially considering that it would probably be pretty damn hard for a primarch to kill himself with their regenerative abilities and whatnot. I also don't see how it would have been a selfish move even if he had known what he was going to do. Setting yourself up for an eternity of torture is selfish in the books of very few people.
True. He fell for the lie of the Daemon because he was an emotional wreck at that point. Suicide would still be possible - if nothing else, he could try to stop the rebellion single-handedly there and then (and almost certain be killed by one of the other Traitor Primarchs) or destroy enough of his own head with a power weapon that he would die. He was selfish because he chose to try to escape from the consequences of his action and any attempt at putting things right so that he wouldn't feel guilty. Had he known, he would still be selfish because he would be giving up power to another for no real reason. He chose to open himself to a Daemon rather than try to find redemption.
Saruman corrupted the king by having Wormtongue constantly whisper lies into his ear until he believed him. To start with they were small and infrequent, but by the time Gandalf got there he had locked himself in the darkness and was about to betray Gondor. It was basically the same thing with Fulgrim, if you replace 'locked himself in the darkness' with 'took a lot of mind altering substances and led a legion to damnation'.
im2randomghgh wrote:
It had NOTHING to do with a crisis of conscience! It is like how the king of Rohan was being manipulated in LotR!
It had everything to do with a crisis of conscience. The Daemon had no real power over Fulgrim, Fulgrim just decided that he wasn't willing to go far enough to continue in the rebellion (for that moment, at least. Whether or not he would've changed his mind again is unknown). I can't actually remember what Saruman did to Theoden in the books to be honest, and I'm not going to go by the films because they went against the books in many ways.
Durza wrote:There's kind of a difference between someone who hasn't even been told that daemons exist picking up a sword and listening to the ever-darker thoughts that he thinks are his own and someone specifically trained to fight daemons using a daemon blade when he knows what it is and what it can do. The difference being that the second guy should know better
I know there's a difference. But it still proves that Fulgrim wasn't corrupted as soon as he picked up the Laer sword. Also, listening to the thoughts was still his own decision. I have dark thoughts from time to time. I don't act on them. Fulgrim still had free will (aside from the second when the Daemon forced his arm to kill Manus).
Except he didn't know what the daemon was going to do. It offered oblivion and he accepted. Considering that he had just killed his brother and best or second best friend with what he had intended to be a warning shot of sorts, and that he had just realised he'd led his own legion into corruption, that's pretty understandable, especially considering that it would probably be pretty damn hard for a primarch to kill himself with their regenerative abilities and whatnot. I also don't see how it would have been a selfish move even if he had known what he was going to do. Setting yourself up for an eternity of torture is selfish in the books of very few people.
True. He fell for the lie of the Daemon because he was an emotional wreck at that point. Suicide would still be possible - if nothing else, he could try to stop the rebellion single-handedly there and then (and almost certain be killed by one of the other Traitor Primarchs) or destroy enough of his own head with a power weapon that he would die. He was selfish because he chose to try to escape from the consequences of his action and any attempt at putting things right so that he wouldn't feel guilty. Had he known, he would still be selfish because he would be giving up power to another for no real reason. He chose to open himself to a Daemon rather than try to find redemption.
You're 100% right here. Just want to add onto the last section. Remember, it's important to realize that by the time Fulgrim slew Ferrus, he'd already been corrupted. Killing his brother and giving in to the daemon was the culmination of everything that came before. It's impossible to use as evidence on its own. It is an effect, not a cause.
Fulgrim was weak, and let himself be persuaded by the voices in his head. Plenty of other characters in 40K lore have resisted temptation. Fulgrim did not. He was vain and arrogant, and sought perfection. The daemon lied to him and he bought into it. He was only possessed after his greater character flaws and weaknesses were exploited. Corruption, then possession when he ultimately realized that he'd "sold his soul", and it wasn't for rock and roll.
However, to reign this back in, because it's a huge semantic tangent to the irrefutable truth that the primarchs were all arrogant (just in different ways). Guilliman, and the Ultramarines by default, get a lot of flak for being "too perfect". And that's simply because the Ultramarines display their primarch's traits in their mentality. Guilliman's arrogance was less visible and more subtle. It makes him seem "perfect", but anyone who bothered to read my character examination of Guilliman (or just took the time themselves to do a character analysis) understands that he wasn't perfect, not by far. But his flaws are simply not superficial like some of his brothers (extremes of hatred, sociopathy, pride, vanity, etc). Guilliman was resistant to the influences of Chaos because he didn't need acceptance or validation beyond that of the Emperor, and what he created for himself. He wasn't worried about the kinds of little things Horus, or Lorgar, or Fulgrim were, for example.
But I don't see how that's a problem. Somebody in the story has to be the good guy. Sanguinius has very few character flaws. He was a great general, a great fighter, resisted temptation, wasn't arrogant, etc. The only real difference between him and Guilliman is that he died heroically, And people always seem to remember people in a far better light after they died. If Guilliman had been able to be at Terra, and died instead of Sanguinius, and the Blood Angels were the "default" chapter (since they were essentially perfect before the Black Rage), we'd just read "Why does everybody hate the Blood Angels" threads.
But I don't see how that's a problem. Somebody in the story has to be the good guy. Sanguinius has very few character flaws. He was a great general, a great fighter, resisted temptation, wasn't arrogant, etc. The only real difference between him and Guilliman is that he died heroically, And people always seem to remember people in a far better light after they died. If Guilliman had been able to be at Terra, and died instead of Sanguinius, and the Blood Angels were the "default" chapter (since they were essentially perfect before the Black Rage), we'd just read "Why does everybody hate the Blood Angels" threads.
A huge portion of Ultrasmurfs hate isn't simply because they are popular, it is because they are popular AND boring, plain. They are standard, they follow the rules, and that's the ultramarines. Blood Angels have always had personality, and they actually used to be the GW poster boys, and no one hated them...
I like the order and discipline. I like their colors. I like Guilliman. I like their Roman style. If I played space marines... I would use Ultras. Especially because of the Honor Guard boxed set. Gorgeous.
But I don't see how that's a problem. Somebody in the story has to be the good guy. Sanguinius has very few character flaws. He was a great general, a great fighter, resisted temptation, wasn't arrogant, etc. The only real difference between him and Guilliman is that he died heroically, And people always seem to remember people in a far better light after they died. If Guilliman had been able to be at Terra, and died instead of Sanguinius, and the Blood Angels were the "default" chapter (since they were essentially perfect before the Black Rage), we'd just read "Why does everybody hate the Blood Angels" threads.
A huge portion of Ultrasmurfs hate isn't simply because they are popular, it is because they are popular AND boring, plain. They are standard, they follow the rules, and that's the ultramarines. Blood Angels have always had personality, and they actually used to be the GW poster boys, and no one hated them...
The Blood Angels were never the poster boys. This is something I hear quite often, but it holds no water. They were simply on the cover of the 2nd Edition game (and eventually Epi-K) and used in Space Hulk. And that was long before they had any real fluff behind them. They never held a position like the Ultramarines have since 1995. The Space Wolves got far, far more exposure in Rogue Trader. So if the Blood Angels were poster boys, we're talking about a span of maybe a year and a half, when the hobby was small, the fluff extremely limited, and there weren't Internet forums for people to share their angry, incoherent biases and infect other people with dumb ideas.
And I think the Blood Angels are silly. The whole Black Rage thing, and vampire thing, etc. It's contrived and silly, not interesting. The Ultramarines as warriors of consummate skill and comprehensive in their ability to adapt and overcome are far more interesting. But I don't hate the Blood Angels.
But you miss the point. Without the Black Rage, the Blood Angels are just as boring as the Ultramarines. They follow the rules too. They just go crazy from time to time with the Black Rage and it gives them a contrived sense of tragedy.
Yup, a group of warriors with an inherent flaw they an in danger of succumbing to is far less interesting than the guys who always follow the rules and are totally perfect...
Veteran's right, technically the Blood Angels also follow the Codex Astartes and are a Codex Chapter. However, they do diverge from it, just as the Imperial Fists do.
Only the Space Wolves can truly be counted as not really following the codex, as I understood it.
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Durza wrote:Yup, a group of warriors with an inherent flaw they an in danger of succumbing to is far less interesting than the guys who always follow the rules and are totally perfect...
Again, being a bit unfair to the Boys in Blue there. Most of the fluff indicates a flaw of inflexibility, with a little too much reliance on Dogma.
Also, if Uriel and Titus are anything to go by, the Codex is meant to be considered more of a set of guidelines and hints than solid rules.
At least, that's the impression I got from Titus.
Durza wrote:My apologies, it was a small bit unfair. But the Blood Angels are still more interesting.
Well, that is your opinion. I personaly pray to great Tzeentch that he delivers us from all trite wanabe antiheroes which have a dark and terrible secret ( for some strange reason only Khorn and the bugs have actualy listened, ah, the architect of fate works in mysterious ways ).
But I don't see how that's a problem. Somebody in the story has to be the good guy. Sanguinius has very few character flaws. He was a great general, a great fighter, resisted temptation, wasn't arrogant, etc. The only real difference between him and Guilliman is that he died heroically, And people always seem to remember people in a far better light after they died. If Guilliman had been able to be at Terra, and died instead of Sanguinius, and the Blood Angels were the "default" chapter (since they were essentially perfect before the Black Rage), we'd just read "Why does everybody hate the Blood Angels" threads.
A huge portion of Ultrasmurfs hate isn't simply because they are popular, it is because they are popular AND boring, plain. They are standard, they follow the rules, and that's the ultramarines. Blood Angels have always had personality, and they actually used to be the GW poster boys, and no one hated them...
The Blood Angels were never the poster boys. This is something I hear quite often, but it holds no water. They were simply on the cover of the 2nd Edition game (and eventually Epi-K) and used in Space Hulk. And that was long before they had any real fluff behind them. They never held a position like the Ultramarines have since 1995. The Space Wolves got far, far more exposure in Rogue Trader. So if the Blood Angels were poster boys, we're talking about a span of maybe a year and a half, when the hobby was small, the fluff extremely limited, and there weren't Internet forums for people to share their angry, incoherent biases and infect other people with dumb ideas.
And I think the Blood Angels are silly. The whole Black Rage thing, and vampire thing, etc. It's contrived and silly, not interesting. The Ultramarines as warriors of consummate skill and comprehensive in their ability to adapt and overcome are far more interesting. But I don't hate the Blood Angels.
But you miss the point. Without the Black Rage, the Blood Angels are just as boring as the Ultramarines. They follow the rules too. They just go crazy from time to time with the Black Rage and it gives them a contrived sense of tragedy.
Bold part is as innaccurate as it gets, italic part applies to all marines.
And sanguinary guard are non-deathcompany related codex deviation, as well as extreme use of assault tactics, having a guardian angel, using altogether different dreadnoughts variations/weapons etc.
Ultramarines do nothing different or better than other chapters. There's nothing special about them, other than their small empire.
Blood Angels have death company, Sang guard, Sanguinor, priests, furisio, blood talons, melta pistols etc.
Iron Hands have all kinds of augmetics.
Imperial Fists have their own special tank-hunting doctrine, honour duels, their own land raider pattern and a giant star fort under their command.
Dark Angels are so connected to their successors they are basically still a legion, have their special chaplains, have their secret, have a dreadnought pattern etc.
Space Wolves have the wulfen, entirely different command structure, doctrine, weapons, ranks, recruitment and basically everything different.
Raven Guard have their stealth attacks and gakloads of LC...I admit, they're not that special.
White Scars have brotherhoods which aren't even exact equivalents of companies, have stormseers, use more bikes than the codex would ever support, modifies their battletanks, has no dreadnoughts and has a Master of the Hunt.
Salamanders modify their armour and weapons substantially, have physically slower reflexes, little in the way of fast attack, and use almost exclusively heat based weapons for special weaponry.
Now do you see why they are the least exciting 1st founding loyal legion? The only legion at ALL more boring is the IW.
Durza wrote:My apologies, it was a small bit unfair. But the Blood Angels are still more interesting.
Well, that is your opinion. I personaly pray to great Tzeentch that he delivers us from all trite wanabe antiheroes which have a dark and terrible secret
Seriously. Of course, it's the same phenomenon that most people when they are young want to be like the ninja turtle Raphael because he's edgy and dark, but as they grow up, they realize Raphael is just an angry whiner and they'd rather be a great leader like Leonardo, smart like Donatello, or laid back and happy like Michelangelo (or all three).
The Ultramarines do everything better than the other chapters. After all, they are "The greatest of all Space Marine chapters." Like it or not, this is the truth as laid out by the fluff. I hate to say the rest of your argument is invalid, but, hey, since you missed this absolutely crucial part, it is.
And really, the rest is just your opinion, which, to me, is very limited in scope, heavily biased, and ultimately, very easily dismissed.
Durza wrote:My apologies, it was a small bit unfair. But the Blood Angels are still more interesting.
Well, that is your opinion. I personaly pray to great Tzeentch that he delivers us from all trite wanabe antiheroes which have a dark and terrible secret
Seriously. Of course, it's the same phenomenon that most people when they are young want to be like the ninja turtle Raphael because he's edgy and dark, but as they grow up, they realize Raphael is just an angry whiner and they'd rather be a great leader like Leonardo, smart like Donatello, or laid back and happy like Michelangelo (or all three).
The Ultramarines do everything better than the other chapters. After all, they are "The greatest of all Space Marine chapters." Like it or not, this is the truth as laid out by the fluff. I hate to say the rest of your argument is invalid, but, hey, since you missed this absolutely crucial part, it is.
And really, the rest is just your opinion, which, to me, is very limited in scope, heavily biased, and ultimately, very easily dismissed.
...not quite. They are balanced. They are better than the White Scars at siege warfare and better than the salamanders at fast attack...but then again the Salamanders are better than the scars in a siege and the White Scars are better at fast attack.
The Ultramarines are successful because of a combo of plot armour, and being pretty good at everything. However, most non UM chapters have a specialty, which the UM are most decidedly NOT superior to them in.
Also, I would argue that BT, SW and GK are all more successful, being bigger and more accomplished, plus in a chapter war any of those three could crush the smurfs.
You really do live in a strange world of Smurf Hate. In a chapter war, the Ultramarines bring their own fleet, the Ultramar Navy, and hundreds, if not thousands, of regiments of Imperial Guard level Ultramar PDF troopers, and thousands of years of combined arms experience to utilize them to their fullest.
Not only do the Ultramarines defeat any of those three Chapters, it defeats all three at the same time.
Again, like I've said before, we know the Ultramarines are the best. Somebody has to be the best. It might as well be the Ultramarines. I don't see any reason for people to dislike this fact. But, for those who insist on disliking that fact, they still have to accept that it is fact.
For those who are interested, I’ve got some final results from my thread for tallying the true percentage of Ultramarine hatred, with 271 Dakkanauts weighing in. Before parties who shall remain nameless (but rhyme with squee) trolled the thread into oblivion, we managed to learn that 36.9% of respondents felt positively about the Ultramarines. Only 28.4% were neutral. A further 32.5% felt negatively about the Ultramarines, with the remaining voters declining to pigeonhole their nuanced views into a single declarative statement. Now, anyone familiar with polling and sampling understands that this isn’t perfectly objective, but it at least serves to give us a better idea of how many people actually dislike the Ultramarines.
Jimsolo wrote:For those who are interested, I’ve got some final results from my thread for tallying the true percentage of Ultramarine hatred, with 271 Dakkanauts weighing in. Before parties who shall remain nameless (but rhyme with squee) trolled the thread into oblivion, we managed to learn that 36.9% of respondents felt positively about the Ultramarines. Only 28.4% were neutral.
I can only assume this is directed at myself. How is defending your favorite chapter considering trolling?
im2randomghgh wrote:Salamanders modify their armour and weapons substantially, have physically slower reflexes, little in the way of fast attack, and use almost exclusively heat based weapons for special weaponry.
I hate Vulkan Hestans rules because it makes people think this. The Salamanders like heat based weapons, but don't 'almost exlusively use them'. Their codex deviations came from a lower amount of assault marines, and a divergance in the form of organisation, in that they only have 7 companies instead of 10 (based on the 7 continents of Nocturn), with the numbers brought up to about 1000 Marines by the companies being bigger than normal.
MrMoustaffa wrote:
Also, they were Matt Ward's favored child for a while, and anything that has come into contact with Matt Ward tends to receive undying hate from the 40k community.
So when he makes the Tau Codex they will get even MORE hate?
Actually, Bandit, it turns out that the Tau aren't as hated as you'd think they would be. Although, if Ward writes their new Codex, that will probably add a substantial amount of hatred to their load.
) basically said that the Ultramarines were the greatest chapter of all time, and that all other chapters wished they were as good as the Ultramarines. I think he also said something along the lines that all chapters that aren't Space Wolves, Templars, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels, follow the Codex Astartes (Written by Roboutte Guillman or something like that, in game spiritual liege) to the letter in an attempt to mirror the perfection of the Ultramarines. However, they're doomed to fail, for they will never be Ultramarines...
