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Post by: lord marcus
In response to the mod sponsored removal of off topic posts in the Mantic news and rumors thread, I have made this thread in the interest of continuing discussion.
thanks,
LM
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Post by: LunaHound
What I like about Mantics:
Ratio of Quality vs Quantity.
Accessibility to purchasing from them.
Customer Support.
Speed of Expansion.
Improvement in their products.
What I dont like about Mantic:
They are known for horde size armies, the cores should always be plastic.
I dont care if resin is easier to glue than metal, because we still need plastic not restic.
I dont like their website, its slow, and the pics are tiny compared to GW where you can see it properly.
I dont like their advance orders where they dont show any product pics
I dont like their rumor window length, I lose interest after 1 month....
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Post by: Vulcan
What I like about Mantic:
1) Cost-effectiveness. I have picked up 3 of the Dwarf Army boxes. That gives me over 300 Dwarves, and something like 3-4000 points worth of army, for under $300 dollars. Try doing that with GW.
2) The Dwarves rock. They look much better than GW Dwarves. The undead line looks pretty good too.
What I don't like about Mantic:
1) The other lines of minis are kind of weak, in my opinion. They tend to be awful scrawney, even when not compared to equivalent GW sculpts.
2) Lack of variety of poses. They're not exactly static, but... can we say 'infinite recursion'?
3) My FLGS doesn't carry them.  I have to direct-order, which can be a pain in the butt. Not to mention I prefer to gratify my desires as soon as possible...
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Post by: infinite_array
What I like about Mantic: -Alternate supplier of large scale fantasy/sci-fi miniature battles in 28mm. One complaint we always see when people get tired of GW games is that GW games are exactly what they want. Mantic can help with that. -Cheaper models -Good aesthetic (depending on taste. You see skinny elves, I see 'realistically proportioned bodies'. Dwarves I'm not so keen on, but they're still nice). -Good expansion -Good customer service (free rulebooks, army lists, forum, 'Mantic points') -Ruleset (for Fantasy at least) is simple, yet does every it's competitor does, with better tactical depth. See Podhammer episode 95, 'Kings of Fury' for an semi-review of the system. It also has some historical, fan made expansions. -Ruleset is element based, so Mantic models aren't even needed. 10mm Pendraken, anyone? -They openly mock Games Workshop. Good on you, guys. What I don't like: -Expansion may be too quick. It may have been a bad idea to bring out Warpath while Kings of War is still in it's relative 'infancy', with a lack of armies and models. (Of course, it's entirely convenient that these armies have counterparts in other popular Fantasy/Sci-Fi games in the same scale. Who da thunk that?) -Prices! Careful, Mantic. You don't want to become the thing you mock. I can think of a certain quote by Nietzsche that you may want to hang in just about every room in your offices -Creativity. Yes, we know why they're doing it. But the only really 'imaginative' thing they done so far is stick Skaven in space.
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Post by: candy.man
I have mixed feelings about Mantic.
On one hand, I like the value for money behind Mantic (decent minis at a decent price). On the other hand, they haven’t done anything yet that’s appealed to me as a consumer (I honestly want to buy from them but I can’t find anything that I like).
I think their main flaw is that aesthetically they’re too similar to GW. Sure the themes are generic enough for Mantic to emulate but Mantic hasn’t put a strong/creative original twist to it IMO. I get the feeling that Mantic is still “playing it safe” a bit with their miniatures line and not taking bold enough risks.
Now if Mantic could start pushing some more original sculpts (as well as get rid of Alessio Cavetore lol), they’d get my business.
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Post by: lord marcus
candy.man wrote:I have mixed feelings about Mantic.
On one hand, I like the value for money behind Mantic (decent minis at a decent price). On the other hand, they haven’t done anything yet that’s appealed to me as a consumer (I honestly want to buy from them but I can’t find anything that I like).
I think their main flaw is that aesthetically they’re too similar to GW. Sure the themes are generic enough for Mantic to emulate but Mantic hasn’t put a strong/creative original twist to it IMO. I get the feeling that Mantic is still “playing it safe” a bit with their miniatures line and not taking bold enough risks.
Now if Mantic could start pushing some more original sculpts (as well as get rid of Alessio Cavetore lol), they’d get my business.
Whats wrong with Alessio? KoW is a wonderfully tactical rule-set.
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Post by: -Loki-
candy.man wrote:I have mixed feelings about Mantic.
On one hand, I like the value for money behind Mantic (decent minis at a decent price). On the other hand, they haven’t done anything yet that’s appealed to me as a consumer (I honestly want to buy from them but I can’t find anything that I like).
This is pretty much how I feel. I see these army boxes sitting in my FLGS, and think 'holy crap, I want one of those to bulk out my VC's'. But then I look at the models, and just can't.
Though for some reason I really like their Elves. If I ever did a High Elf army, it would be done with Mantic stuff.
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Post by: candy.man
I’m the same with their Space Orks. I don’t collect orks but if I ever did, I’d buy Mantic.
I’m also a big fan of converting. The cheap nature of mantic makes them a gold mine for conversions but alas none of the stuff they sell I can use.
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Post by: malfred
Their dwarves are hit and miss. I mean, I love em', and I love
the Berserkers, but they look like different scales. I guess you
could call the Berserkers without armor and the other stuff as
with armor, but still.
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Post by: The Dwarf Wolf
lord marcus wrote:candy.man wrote:I have mixed feelings about Mantic.
On one hand, I like the value for money behind Mantic (decent minis at a decent price). On the other hand, they haven’t done anything yet that’s appealed to me as a consumer (I honestly want to buy from them but I can’t find anything that I like).
I think their main flaw is that aesthetically they’re too similar to GW. Sure the themes are generic enough for Mantic to emulate but Mantic hasn’t put a strong/creative original twist to it IMO. I get the feeling that Mantic is still “playing it safe” a bit with their miniatures line and not taking bold enough risks.
Now if Mantic could start pushing some more original sculpts (as well as get rid of Alessio Cavetore lol), they’d get my business.
Whats wrong with Alessio? KoW is a wonderfully tactical rule-set.
KoW is Amazing, Warpath is "bleh", get that out of here!!!
What I like: pretty much everything...
What i dislike: they dont have marines yet...
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Post by: candy.man
It would be interesting if they did human power armoured miniatures (i.e. not-space marines). It would be hard to do given GW’s overzealous tendency to C&D anything that even lightly treads into their domain. They definitely need to release some “proper” SciFi miniatures IMO, preferably something thematically iconic like Space Marines (human power armoured soldiers) or Necrons (evil alien cyborgs).
Ninjabread did a funny webcomic whereas they described Mantics Warpath range as existing Fantasy races with “goggles”. As silly as this joke was, it’s actually true (even more so considering the recent announcement of Space Rats).
The Corporation look like the only “proper” SciFi race at the moment although from what I’ve seen so far, they’re nothing groundbreaking (as SciFi human soldiers are a dime a dozen and Mantic’s corporation minis are fairly generic).
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Post by: Kroothawk
Mantic has the biggest potential to become the No. 1 cheap alternative to GW.
They skrew it all the time because they behave like grumpy old GW ex-employees dreaming of all the niche armies of the 90s (Chaos Dwarfs, Gorkamorka Orks, Hrud, LatD) instead of investing a bare minimum in concept work. Maybe someone can post Alessio's explicit statement that they want to revive "the Golden Age of GW".
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Post by: -Loki-
Kroothawk wrote:Maybe someone can post Alessio's explicit statement that they want to revive "the Golden Age of GW".
Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
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Post by: Max Jet
+ Affordable prices.
(this is slowly descending. 10 different miniatures on one sprue full of little parts was the best value for money. The 2 forgefathers with half reused sprues was the worst and way above what I would have paid for them. The resin prices are very good, the new plastic prices not so much any more. The old plastics are perfectly priced)
+ The aesthetics.
(I love almost every single one of Mantics miniatures. Except for the reused fantasy science fiction things they never cease to surprise me with decent looking armies. 10 different miniatures on sprue? Easily convertible? Not much of a clone army for me!)
+ Costumer interaction
(Whoever had the pleasure to speak to either the sculpters, Mr. Renton, Mr. Cavatore or the Golem team itself knows exactly what I mean. There is not much to say, than the interaction is perfect. Simply perfect. And the implement the costumer opinion wherever possible, I can name you 10 examples out of the top of my head!)
+ the rules
(The rules people. The rules. God I love the rules! Challenging yet funny. Rich, yet elegant. Very competitive and fair, yet also good for a laid back game. Easy to learn yet highly tactical. They are a M A S T E R P I E C E !! )
+ Packaging
(Reusable boxes with protective foam. Wonderfull!)
+ Extras
(Mantic points and posters. What a nice and wonderful surprise!)
+ Teasers
(Keeping me involved with the company and constantly checking out what they've gt
+ + + + + Orky!!!!!!
(God bless him)
+ Constant sales
(Always something to grab!)
+ The fluff
(Though you have to speak to the team personally as most is in developement right now, the planned Warpath fluff for the Rulebook is AMAZING!)
What I don't like?
- Decline in plastic sprues.
(they get reused, smaller, less bits and more expensive.. ugh Mantic please stop here right now!)
- Females
(All of the female models are ugly)
And that's about it from the top of my head. Conclusion? Mantic is an awesome and simply loveable manufacturer!
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Post by: AlexHolker
Max Jet wrote:+ Costumer interaction
(Whoever had the pleasure to speak to either the sculpters, Mr. Renton, Mr. Cavatore or the Golem team itself knows exactly what I mean. There is not much to say, than the interaction is perfect. Simply perfect. And the implement the costumer opinion wherever possible, I can name you 10 examples out of the top of my head!)
As an Australian, I couldn't disagree more. If you're not within spitting distance of the bosses, their customer interaction drops off precipitously.
+ the rules
(The rules people. The rules. God I love the rules! Challenging yet funny. Rich, yet elegant. Very competitive and fair, yet also good for a laid back game. Easy to learn yet highly tactical. They are a M A S T E R P I E C E !! )
I do not agree. The previous iteration of the core KoW rules were very good but the Warpath rules aren't, and neither are the changes with the newest iteration of the KoW Rules. Too many of the rules are arbitrarily constrained for no benefit, while others are just poorly conceived.
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Post by: Da Boss
Positives:
Generally, prices are good. I do think the prices are creeping up. I bought the Undead set because it was excellent value, I wouldn't have bought it if it cost as much as the current Forgefather deals.
Free, solid rules. This means the barrier for entry is much lower. This is a Good Thing.
Good ranges, like Dwarves and Undead, and solid ranges, like Orcs and Forgefathers.
A steady stream of news and releases.
A committment to reviewing and correcting things (rules and models).
Carry cases (I use these quite a bit- wish the army deals came with them  )
Negatives:
Nothing particularly inspiring or innovative from them in terms of concepts. But that's not always a bad thing either.
Gimmicks like Orcy. I can do without it.
Warpath rules don't do it for me.
Warpath army concepts are not doing it for me either.
Some weak ranges (Elves, Marauders, Abyssal Dwarves).
Slow but steady drop in value for money.
Some real stinkers in the model range (Drakon riders, vampire cavalry, vampire on pegasus).
No big cool plastic or resin kits and monsters (I will buy them from Maelstrom anyway though.)
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Post by: lord marcus
AlexHolker wrote:Max Jet wrote:+ Costumer interaction
(Whoever had the pleasure to speak to either the sculpters, Mr. Renton, Mr. Cavatore or the Golem team itself knows exactly what I mean. There is not much to say, than the interaction is perfect. Simply perfect. And the implement the costumer opinion wherever possible, I can name you 10 examples out of the top of my head!)
As an Australian, I couldn't disagree more. If you're not within spitting distance of the bosses, their customer interaction drops off precipitously.
As someone who lives across an ocean from the mantic offices, but has had wonderful interaction anyway I see your statement as flawed.
+ the rules
(The rules people. The rules. God I love the rules! Challenging yet funny. Rich, yet elegant. Very competitive and fair, yet also good for a laid back game. Easy to learn yet highly tactical. They are a M A S T E R P I E C E !! )
I do not agree. The previous iteration of the core KoW rules were very good but the Warpath rules aren't, and neither are the changes with the newest iteration of the KoW Rules. Too many of the rules are arbitrarily constrained for no benefit, while others are just poorly conceived.
The hardback/first true edition of the KoW book is in development, and some of the poor choices from the 2nd revised edition (56 page booklet) are being addressed such as war machines.
Da Boss wrote:Positives:
Generally, prices are good. I do think the prices are creeping up. I bought the Undead set because it was excellent value, I wouldn't have bought it if it cost as much as the current Forgefather deals.
Free, solid rules. This means the barrier for entry is much lower. This is a Good Thing.
Good ranges, like Dwarves and Undead, and solid ranges, like Orcs and Forgefathers.
A steady stream of news and releases.
A committment to reviewing and correcting things (rules and models).
Carry cases (I use these quite a bit- wish the army deals came with them ) New ones have included 2 of the large cases afaik, i got 2 in my elite undead set.
Negatives:
Nothing particularly inspiring or innovative from them in terms of concepts. But that's not always a bad thing either.
Gimmicks like Orcy. I can do without it. He isn't really supposed to be a gimmick, more comic relief.
Warpath rules don't do it for me.
Warpath army concepts are not doing it for me either.
Some weak ranges (Elves, Marauders, Abyssal Dwarves). Why are the AD weak? By all accounts they have sold well (a lot of the CD community has liked them.)
Slow but steady drop in value for money. Which may be revitalized, depends on the shape and amount of goblins on the plastics frames out later this year.
Some real stinkers in the model range (Drakon riders, vampire cavalry, vampire on pegasus).
No big cool plastic or resin kits and monsters (I will buy them from Maelstrom anyway though.)
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Post by: Max Jet
AlexHolker wrote:As an Australian, I couldn't disagree more. If you're not within spitting distance of the bosses, their customer interaction drops off precipitously.
This has been rebuted by Scarletsquig, but I will remind you of the truth again.
Ork Variety = The majority of people loved the sculpts but hated the lack of head options. Mantic responded with additional metal heads (they did not have the money to push out new plastic sprues after they realized people wanted more than the heads on the sprues, but they did what they could)
Reused Fantasy Sprues = The majority of people around the world hated this and Mantic promised never ever to do this again.
Rules Tweaking = Most of the Changes in point costs and additional units was asked for by the majority of tournament attenders and forum posters. The Undead point costs is the most visible change
Make something unique versus make something I can use = I have checked and sorry, you Gomez and half a handfull of other posters are in the minority. Most people want something they can use in a GW system or something the company abandoned a long time ago. I agree with you on this here, be unique, the majority however thinks differently it is time to accept that.
Make a Dungeon Crawler = One of the best selling products is the result with another more hero foccussed DC hinted at
Make a hardback book I can carry around and read in bed = comming this year
Do something about the paint style of Golem = the result are more frequent and open conversations through Golem painting studios. The Huskarl is one of the first results along with a "Choose our painting scheme for the Corporation" right there on the Blog.
Honestly Alex. You know I often agree with your opinions but I absolutely cannot see where you are comming from on this part. You sure you didn't confuse "Make something the community wants" With "Make something I want"?
Da Boss wrote:Gimmicks like Orcy. I can do without it.
[serious mode = off] You sir have NO humour at all! [serious mode = on]
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Post by: scarletsquig
This has been rebuted by Scarletsquig, but I will remind you of the truth again.
In addition, I'd like to point out that, during the online Warpath beta test that Mantic held on BoW, AlexHolker personally made a suggestion to change the Warpath rules. (crushing strength for vehicles).
That suggestion was not ignored, Alessio read it, agreed with it and it now appears in the current edition of the rules.
Alex, I really don't understand your stance on this. You've personally offered feedback (from Australia, via the internet), had your ideas added to Warpath, but you're still not happy because they didn't agree with *all* of your opinions?
I've made a (much smaller) mark on the rules too, by winning the naming contest for the Brokkrs. That was something which was done entirely online and totally unrelated to me living in the UK.
A lot of the feedback they get does come from UK citizens, but this mainly comes down to the fact that a majority of Mantic's players and buyers are UK-based. I'm sure if there were enough people interested in the US and Australia for a tournament circuit to spring up, there would be a lot more interest in getting feedback from that. I've seen a lot of interest in Warpath in Australia, there's some people on dakka who regularly post video battle reports.
Mantic is all about feedback, but it does want that feedback to be the result of people playing the games and thrashing out the rules/ army lists on the table as opposed to a theoretical approach. That's not unreasonable, and tournaments located within spitting distance of where all the staff live is the easiest way to get good feedback. GW ignores or simply doesn't care about external balancing/ playtesting these days.
I work as a indie game developer. Watching someone play your game IRL (as in, sitting behind them and watching them play) is considered to be the holy grail of good quality game testing for a reason.
Also, what I like about Mantic can be succinctly summed up with this video.
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Post by: Da Boss
lord marcus wrote:
Da Boss wrote:Positives:
Generally, prices are good. I do think the prices are creeping up. I bought the Undead set because it was excellent value, I wouldn't have bought it if it cost as much as the current Forgefather deals.
Free, solid rules. This means the barrier for entry is much lower. This is a Good Thing.
Good ranges, like Dwarves and Undead, and solid ranges, like Orcs and Forgefathers.
A steady stream of news and releases.
A committment to reviewing and correcting things (rules and models).
Carry cases (I use these quite a bit- wish the army deals came with them ) New ones have included 2 of the large cases afaik, i got 2 in my elite undead set.
Negatives:
Nothing particularly inspiring or innovative from them in terms of concepts. But that's not always a bad thing either.
Gimmicks like Orcy. I can do without it. He isn't really supposed to be a gimmick, more comic relief.
Warpath rules don't do it for me.
Warpath army concepts are not doing it for me either.
Some weak ranges (Elves, Marauders, Abyssal Dwarves). Why are the AD weak? By all accounts they have sold well (a lot of the CD community has liked them.)
Slow but steady drop in value for money. Which may be revitalized, depends on the shape and amount of goblins on the plastics frames out later this year.
Some real stinkers in the model range (Drakon riders, vampire cavalry, vampire on pegasus).
No big cool plastic or resin kits and monsters (I will buy them from Maelstrom anyway though.)
That's cool that they are including the cases now.
Orcy is gimmick-y comic relief. I don't find it funny, I'm sorry to say.
AD are weak in my opinion because...I don't like the sculpts? That's all, really.
I will wait and see on the goblin question too. If they look as good as the metals, I will definitely get at least a box.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
Dear Mantic, make cheaper alternative plastics to the GW ones so I can use them in the GW games. Make them attractive and keep them cheap.
That's all I currently want from you. I will give you money if you do this. I will not give you that money if your minis won't scale with theirs (elves...) or if the style is wildly different (orx v orks).
And I'd like more modelling options from the sprues.
Thank you!
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Post by: lord marcus
Da Boss wrote:[
That's cool that they are including the cases now.
Orcy is gimmick-y comic relief. I don't find it funny, I'm sorry to say.
AD are weak in my opinion because...I don't like the sculpts? That's all, really.
I will wait and see on the goblin question too. If they look as good as the metals, I will definitely get at least a box.
If you don't find it funny then that is your opinion, it does not mean it is gimmicky
Same thing with AD, except that you are classifying them as weak due to a an aesthetic choice, and not the gaming public's reaction and thus overall sales.
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Post by: AlexHolker
scarletsquig wrote:In addition, I'd like to point out that, during the online Warpath beta test that Mantic held on BoW, AlexHolker personally made a suggestion to change the Warpath rules. (crushing strength for vehicles).
That suggestion was not ignored, Alessio read it, agreed with it and it now appears in the current edition of the rules.
I am aware. I do not give them any particular credit for listening to one of half a dozen suggestions, during an official beta test, when that suggestion was so blatantly necessary. Listening when someone tells you your house is on fire doesn't make you a man of the people.
My complaint has more to do with how Mantic was acting in the lead up to the Warpath release. Things like a month straight where they'd let anyone who asked in person have a look at the models (or maybe it was the greens). Or how trivially easy it was to find out details about the corporation release - about being restic and the lack of women or vehicles... but only because someone asked in person.
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Post by: LunaHound
AlexHolker wrote: but only because someone asked in person.
And they should extend that privilege..... why?
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Post by: marielle
The only gripe I have with Mantic is that they block up the Renedra release schedule.
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Post by: AlexHolker
LunaHound wrote:AlexHolker wrote: but only because someone asked in person.
And they should extend that privilege..... why?
Because they were asking people to preorder them?
Or even if they didn't, is it too much to ask that people not kiss their ass and call it "perfect" just because they've got theirs?
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Post by: scarletsquig
about being restic and the lack of women or vehicles... but only because someone asked in person.
Those particular questions were asked in person, because the Mantic staff went on to the forums, and asked if the internet had any questions that they would like Ronnie to be asked during the seminar. You saw the thread on Warseer, and you posted on it, and your question was asked to Ronnie. You are living proof that someone in Australia can in fact ask Ronnie a question and get an answer. The fact that you were angry about the answer they gave (no female soldiers) doesn't mean that they are poor communicators.
I wasn't personally at the Warpath open day, but my question about the Veermyn that I posted online was also asked (would have loved to see the reaction to that, heh).
At the open day earlier in the year (which I did attend) there were plenty of questions submitted to Ronnie via a staff member asking him on behalf of the internet.
Mantic go out of their way to make sure that people online have the opportunity to participate in some of the fun parts of their IRL events for people who cannot get to Nottingham.
They also held an online painting competition at the same time as the one at the open day. The online one got more participants!
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Post by: candy.man
I think we should move the discussion away from “Mantic listening to the people” as it’s devolved into a very arbitrary “he said, she said” discussion. We’ve had some threads derailed in the past due to some of the “passionate” Mantic fans on dakka and I wouldn’t want the same thing to happen to this one (as there’s been some good discussion).
In regards to the topic, I think Kroothawk has made one of the best points in the thread so far. Mantic has the potential at the moment to set themselves up as the No1 alternative to GW but seems to be getting too wrapped up in the past to move forward. Personally I don’t mind Mantic paying homage every now and again with a reference here or there but I don’t think it should be their primary focus. It’s too much of a coincidence that a lot of their armies thematically resemble the niche armies of the 90s (and yes this is taking into account that the themes are generic enough to emulate).
I’d rather Mantic try to do its own thing in the same way that PP does its own thing from GW.
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Post by: malfred
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Dear Mantic, make cheaper alternative plastics to the GW ones so I can use them in the GW games. Make them attractive and keep them cheap.
That's all I currently want from you. I will give you money if you do this. I will not give you that money if your minis won't scale with theirs (elves...) or if the style is wildly different (orx v orks).
And I'd like more modelling options from the sprues.
Thank you!
I disagree.
I want Mantic to release their own unique or interesting take on standard
fantasy races because that makes me more likely to buy them than if
they're just weaker versions of GW's ip.
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Post by: AlexHolker
scarletsquig wrote:about being restic and the lack of women or vehicles... but only because someone asked in person.
Those particular questions were asked in person, because the Mantic staff went on to the forums, and asked if the internet had any questions that they would like Ronnie to be asked during the seminar. You saw the thread on Warseer, and you posted on it, and your question was asked to Ronnie.
WanderingRogue is a member of the Mantic staff?
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Post by: lord marcus
marielle wrote:The only gripe I have with Mantic is that they block up the Renedra release schedule.
Why is this a gripe if more plastic kits are being released?
and
With what? They haven't had a plastics release since the early warpath stuff. Automatically Appended Next Post: @ Alex
No, Nightsword is a member of the staff, and he asked for questions first. Wander rogue simply had a live feed set up to ask questions as well.
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Post by: Pacific
AlexHolker wrote:Max Jet wrote:+ Costumer interaction
(Whoever had the pleasure to speak to either the sculpters, Mr. Renton, Mr. Cavatore or the Golem team itself knows exactly what I mean. There is not much to say, than the interaction is perfect. Simply perfect. And the implement the costumer opinion wherever possible, I can name you 10 examples out of the top of my head!)
As an Australian, I couldn't disagree more. If you're not within spitting distance of the bosses, their customer interaction drops off precipitously.
.
I have to admit, this made me laugh a lot (although sardonically). The rules were changed, in line with what you exactly wished for, and you are still complaining that Mantic don't listen to their fans? What more did you want, a limo driver to pick you up, and then red carpet rolled out once you arrived at Mantic HQ? 
You know at one time GW used to be a great company for customer feedback. I once had hand-written letters from both Jervis Johnson and Gav Thorpe following my comments about why the rules were in a particular way. There is not a chance in hell of something like that happening these days. But, I wonder if the reason now that they have essentially said 'feth the lot of you' to any kind of customer feedback is that percentage of customer who is impossible to please, and they have just given up.
In all honesty, in the 20+ years I have been wargaming, I have never seen a company attempt the level of fan interaction and feedback that Mantic is going through with. Admittedly some of this is only possible with new technology, and the forums/blogging system where people comment on their stuff, but if you read comments from people at the recent Mantic tournament it's obvious that they are doing their utmost to create a balanced game. Such a thing doesn't happen overnight, and arguably there are very few games that have managed it to a high degree (perhaps Infinity?) but at least they are making an effort, and involving the fanbase while doing so.
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Post by: marielle
lord marcus wrote:marielle wrote:The only gripe I have with Mantic is that they block up the Renedra release schedule.
Why is this a gripe if more plastic kits are being released?
Because Mantic's junk clogs up the release schedule of companies like Perrys.
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Post by: AlexHolker
Pacific wrote:I have to admit, this made me laugh a lot (although sardonically). The rules were changed, in line with what you exactly wished for, and you are still complaining that Mantic don't listen to their fans? What more did you want, a limo driver to pick you up, and then red carpet rolled out once you arrived at Mantic HQ?
Once again: I was helping him. As part of his job he wrote a rule that did not work, and I identified it and explained how to fix it. Why does this mean I'm not allowed to say the reverse case - where the fanbase asks them to help by providing information about their work - is too localised for a manufacturer that operates out of a webstore and independents?
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Post by: lord marcus
marielle wrote:lord marcus wrote:marielle wrote:The only gripe I have with Mantic is that they block up the Renedra release schedule.
Why is this a gripe if more plastic kits are being released?
Because Mantic's junk clogs up the release schedule of companies like Perrys.
So if Mantic pays just as much as Perry for tooling, they are not entitled to have thier sprues tooled?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
It's always weird to watch the various trends of 'hatred' that spring up around different companies. People who dislike Mantic do so in a very different manner to those who dislike GW.
People who dislike GW generally pick on their insane prices, their questionable business practices and perhaps their rules. And if people dislike a model like, say, the Chibi-Hawk, people just dislike the model.
But not Mantic. Oh no. It seems that for them it's never a case of "I dislike this model" but more a case of "How dare they make this model!!!!!". When GW makes a crap model it's usually a blip on an otherwise very good radar. When Mantic does something someone else disproves of, they've done something wrong, something shameful; they've 'sinned' somehow.
It's a weird psychology.
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Post by: nkelsch
malfred wrote:
I disagree.
I want Mantic to release their own unique or interesting take on standard
fantasy races because that makes me more likely to buy them than if
they're just weaker versions of GW's ip.
Agree. Being a terrible knock-off line discourages me from purchasing their products... that, and their orks are ugly and boring. Being a greenskin collector, I have been waiting for a model line where someone treated orcs as a humanoid species with male and female models opposed to making orks a rip-off of GW's spore-based, all male orks with other greenskins being genetically related. Hell, even if they were all male, was the snotling and squig rip-offs really needed? Why do orcs need snotlings and squigs... or whatever they call them.
There are dozens of things Mantic could have done, but they took the lazy (and in IMHO unethical) path and have made an inferior product because of it.
I was kinda excited about some of the ideas they had for warpath, but slowly as they flesh out what they are actually implementing, it gets worse and worse. the 8th race was the final let-down by being a horrible rip-off space skaven. I am glad the greatest threat to the universe is ratmen in medieval armor who haven't even progressed in civilization technology to make clothing without having to cobble together scraps of fabric. Apparently all something needs to be sci-fi is fantasy with googles.
The models are not good, they do not stand on thier own merits and the fluff is terrible. They have no value to me.
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Post by: plastictrees
I think over-exposure might have blinded you to the diverse rainbow of GW hatred. Are you suggesting that people aren't constantly making insane hyperbolic statements about GW?
Fundamentally my biggest problem with Mantic is that I don't really care that they're offering a cheaper product. That's just not something that I factor in to my assessment of, what I consider to be, a creatively uninspired, at best, adequately sculpted product line.
It might be unfair to remove what they probably consider to be their biggest advantage from the equation but I don't play these games to push around large numbers of cheap models that I hate.
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Post by: scarletsquig
@nkelsch: Could you please read the Mantic orc background before commenting on it? Not just that one page either, the whole lot.
It's actually fairly well fleshed-out and specifically mentions that Orcs breed. Orclings are merely one of the variants created by the gods.. the background is closer to Tolkien's, with them being the result of corrupted/twisted beings from other races specifically forged by an evil power for war. Spawning from fungus is not mentioned at any point.
They have some interesting new approaches with the orc background, such as mentioning that their lifespan is about a decade long, and generally damned miserable, which provides motivation for their hatred of long-lived and civilised races, there is a huge pre-occupation with death and mortality, with the main goal of most Krudgers being "to be remembered forever", like a lot of their particularly brutal ancestors were. It also mentions that some leaders cull the strongest young in the tribe to make sure they don't become competitors later in life (allowing them to live and rule for longer), but most don't since it hampers the strength of their tribe. It gives the impression of quite a cold and calculating type of race, far removed from GW's "we's da orcs, green is best we's gonna smash da 'ooomiez!!!". The short stories present them as warlike and highly tactical, being totally fine with sitting back and pounding the crap out of a castle with catapults before swarming in.
The mantic background/ model range may not cater to your specific desires to see female orcs in miniature form, but it is definitely different to GW. Not in terms of the types of models being made, which match-up to the GW unit types (I personally love the free orclings on each sprue), but definitely in terms of background and sculpting style.
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Post by: candy.man
That still looks like fairly uninspired orc fluff IMO. I’m inclined to agree with the basis of nkelsch’s comments, even after reading the above.
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Post by: scarletsquig
^ I'm simply addressing the false statement that it is a clone of GW's background.
I only ever post when I see an objectively false statement being made. I have no problems with opinions, as long as they are based on reality as opposed to false assumptions at best, or strawmen at worst.
Doing this makes sure that others do not start believing false things about Mantic "because this dude on the internet said so". 
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Post by: candy.man
That’s cool. I was merely added my own opinion to the mix. Nkelsch from what I gather was looking at things from an aesthetic point of view and I don’t think he was addressing their back stories specifically (where such deviations are a given).
As a word of advice Scarlet, when you try to set the record straight, you should scale back your fervour when you do so.
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Post by: Dysartes
candy.man wrote:That’s cool. I was merely added my own opinion to the mix. Nkelsch from what I gather was looking at things from an aesthetic point of view and I don’t think he was addressing their back stories specifically (where such deviations are a given).
In fairness to scarletsquig, I too got the impression that the entirety of the first paragraph of nkelsch's response was aimed at Mantic - and that it covered both background and aesthetics.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Unethical? LOL!
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Post by: Max Jet
H.B.M.C. wrote:
But not Mantic. Oh no. It seems that for them it's never a case of "I dislike this model" but more a case of "How dare they make this model!!!!!". When GW makes a crap model it's usually a blip on an otherwise very good radar. When Mantic does something someone else disproves of, they've done something wrong, something shameful; they've 'sinned' somehow.
It's a weird psychology.
Absolutely my sentiments! (And one day I will find out where all these myths come from. Notice it's the same people spreading rumours like "Mantic is the reason Renedra cannot dish out more sets" "Chapterhouse is the reason GW can't release the Tervigon" " New Line Cinema is the reason we can't have more infos on releases." ) I guess some people just really love their plastic toys.
candy.man wrote:That still looks like fairly uninspired orc fluff IMO. I’m inclined to agree with the basis of nkelsch’s comments, even after reading the above.
Sometimes you do not need a second post to know when someone has formed a rock solid opinion, no matter the facts
scarletsquig wrote:Doing this makes sure that others do not start believing false things about Mantic "because this dude on the internet said so"..
Like for example Mantic clogging up the Renedra process...
candy.man wrote:As a word of advice Scarlet, when you try to set the record straight, you should scale back your fervour when you do so.
I suggest you read his view on the 8th race, the Twilight Assassin, the Elves and the Dwarves before just randomly making statements.
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Post by: Pacific
lord marcus wrote:marielle wrote:lord marcus wrote:marielle wrote:The only gripe I have with Mantic is that they block up the Renedra release schedule.
Why is this a gripe if more plastic kits are being released?
Because Mantic's junk clogs up the release schedule of companies like Perrys.
So if Mantic pays just as much as Perry for tooling, they are not entitled to have thier sprues tooled?
Ignore the comment that adds nothing at all to the discussion, and is designed to get a rise out of people (i.e. a trolling post).
The models are not good, they do not stand on thier own merits and the fluff is terrible. They have no value to me.
I think the models are great, they stand on their little plastic bases fine (sorry ) and the fluff needs time to develop. GW have had 25 years with the 40k universe, but it was equally lacking when Rogue Trader first appeared. In fact, I can remember reading it at the time and thinking 'obviously someone likes Frank Herbert', but that didn't make me throw the book to the ground in outrage. Give it time, these things can't be built up overnight. A full printed rulebook is on the way, as well as a no doubt questionable novel, I'm sure in a few years from now it will be a very different picture.
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Post by: brettz123
lord marcus wrote:marielle wrote:lord marcus wrote:marielle wrote:The only gripe I have with Mantic is that they block up the Renedra release schedule.
Why is this a gripe if more plastic kits are being released?
Because Mantic's junk clogs up the release schedule of companies like Perrys.
So if Mantic pays just as much as Perry for tooling, they are not entitled to have thier sprues tooled?
That is obviously not what he said or meant. Take a deep breath.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Max Jet wrote:"New Line Cinema is the reason we can't have more infos on releases."
To be fair, that one may actually be true.
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Post by: BrookM
Mantic is not holy, it is not the saviour of the hobby and personally I feel they still have a long, long way to go.
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Post by: Gitkikka
I like Mantic well enough, but I still won't buy their "angry eyes" skeletons.
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Post by: brettz123
Mantic does some nice things. For instance they seem to listen to their fans and that is a really good thing esepcially when you consider how GW seems to operate. Free rules are also very cool. It is also a good way to get beta testing done for free.
What I don't like about Mantic are the miniatures. I find the sculpts to be technically inferior to the top notch companies out there. While they do cost less I don't see them as significantly less expensive than say Perry miniatures or Victrix. So they have a long way to go in that regard. The only miniatures I have even come close to liking are the Corporation (though the new Veermyr look promising).
Overall I think there is some potential here but they really need to make better miniatures that don't look like they are poor 2nd edition knockoffs.
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Post by: mattyrm
I have yet to see a model I was impressed with, I only play SM and Dwarves, they don't make SM and their dwarfs really suck.
Still, ive already got a dwarf army and a SM army and I don't buy that much stuff anymore. Checking ebay once a week and buying off there occasionally means I don't have to buy anything new from GW at ridiculous prices, and I don't have to buy sucky miniatures off mantic. Their undead look alright, but I dont play them.
I think unless your well into the hobby, you can get by nicely with second hand gak. I don't need to own 3 land raiders or 6 dreadknights. And I've never really understood people that go "OMG! New XXX now I have to go out and buy 5!" :(
Although, Im happy to spend £500 a month on booze. I guess im just not that into the hobby.
But seriously.. they make some ugly ass dwarves.
I've got about 1k of GW ones and a box of totally awesome AOW berserkers. I think that's me done for dwarves. Its no contest..
SUCKY
ALL KINDS OF AWESOME
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Post by: Vulcan
I'll give you that the AOW berserkers are better looking than the Mantic bare-basic warriors. How do the AOW warriors compare to the Mantic warriors in appearance? How do the Mantic berserekers compare to the AOW berserkers.
And how does AOW compare to Mantic in pricing? For those of us who do not have an infinite amount of hobby money, that is not a factor we literally cannot afford to ignore.
By the by... if Mantic Dwarves are sucky, what's your opinion of the GW Beer-Belly Dwarves?
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Post by: nkelsch
If Mantic had not added snotlings and squigs to their model line, then they would have been more a generic D&D/LotR orc style. I feel the snotlings and squigs are what has tied their cart regardless of what they claim their fluff is to being a GW knock off, and considering their explicit goal to seemingly make products which fit GW's universe almost exclusivley, it makes the product-line uninspired and the models can't stand on their own as they are bad sculpts and poor design. Why they emulated GW's orkoid race design by including snotlings and squigs confuses me.
They had an opportunity to make an original orc line and they didn't. They haven't with any of their lines. All would be forgiven if the models looked good but the models can't inspire me to part with my money. I would pay *MORE* than GW prices if I felt the model was of quality design. Being cheap is not an incentive for me to buy, assemble and paint an inferior sculpt.
8th race murdered warpath. They almost had something with their corporation figures being cool, but considering the corporation is nothing but exterminators killing evil space rats now the game has simply died.
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Post by: mattyrm
Vulcan wrote:I'll give you that the AOW berserkers are better looking than the Mantic bare-basic warriors. How do the AOW warriors compare to the Mantic warriors in appearance? How do the Mantic berserekers compare to the AOW berserkers.
And how does AOW compare to Mantic in pricing? For those of us who do not have an infinite amount of hobby money, that is not a factor we literally cannot afford to ignore.
By the by... if Mantic Dwarves are sucky, what's your opinion of the GW Beer-Belly Dwarves?
As I said I get my stuff off ebay, you see GW dwarves on their all the time for next to nothing. Especially painted ones, buy em, stip em, your away!
I got my AOW box off ebay with 2 dwarves missing for £18, and made up the two using spare stuff off the spru, and two old GW dwarves, stick them in the middle of the pack, your good to go! As I said, if your patient and you get past the "I need it now!" impulse, you can get anything off there. Check it a few times a week, and In a month you will have yourself a dwarf army for very little. I literally buy nothing at all new.
And yeah I like the GW ones far better. The Mantic warriors and shieldbreakers and thunderers all suck in my opinion.. the cannon crew is alright, but thats about it. They have weird square beards, flat heads and dont have the squat look I like, Dwarfs should look more like gorillas, not short humans. Take this guy for example.
He looks like he has a thin waist and big shoulders, like a human warrior! I bought Tor Dragonbane for my army leader..
Thats a dwarf right there. Messy hair, big ass beard, and ridiculously fat arms and hands that look like they reach his feet when he stands up straight.
YMMV of course, what ever floats your boat. I just think the Mantic ones look tidier and slimmer and more in proportion and that's not dwarfs for me.
The thread was called "Mantic discussion thread" not "Whinge at Matty because he doesn't like the dwarves very much"
If I was going to make a UD army Id go pay mantic a visit, but I'm not, so I'm not.
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Post by: Pacific
I agree about the Dwarves, I don't particularly like the design concept. Although I'm not a big fan of the GW 'guaranteed, 86% beard' ones either, and prefer the Gamezone dwarves which are lovely little sculpts, and quite similar to what GW was doing with the older metal dwarves. Personally, I think the best dwarves GW makes at the moment are the LoTR ones, which I think are some of the best models in the whole range. I have a small collection of them, even though I don't play the game!
I do like the Mantic Orcs however. I think that the Brian Nelson sculpts of orc-kind have become so ingrained in people's psyches over the years, they forget that there was a generic 'orc' of fantasy, much less ape-like, that existed within D&D, Tolkein and other fantasy literature long before GW made those sculpts. In fact, look at the 1st/2nd editions of WFB, and Rogue Trader, for similar examples from within Games Workshop produced miniatures.
So the Mantic ones have a different concept; they are still cruel, still violent, but in more of a controlled manner - not the screaming and mindless ape that runs into the enemy until they or their opponent are dead, but perhaps more of the 'Orc' that we are familiar with from Tolkein, a slightly more bestial barbarian which is nevertheless organised, has a culture and with a cunning intelligence. I think it's great that players now have the option of conveying that kind of 'style' on the tabletop.
The price of them is also a really good point, and means I don't have to feel too guilty about it when I order! The army set contains 50-odd foot infantry, and 10 cavalry, for less than £50. Had I wanted the GW orc models the combined cost would work out at more than £120 (going from RRP in both cases).
That being said, I think it's great the concepts of all the Mantic line (Undead, Orcs, dwarves, elves) are usually at least a little different from their GW counterparts. It gives us, the wargamer, more choice than ever before in terms of what models we can collect.
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Post by: Ratbarf
Personally I find their undead line top notch. If I was going to play a Vampire counts army, they would certainly be what I would buy. But I'm a dwarfs man, and their dwarves are literally the worst I've seen aside from the ones that look like garden gnomes. They're like oddly proportioned assyrians..... It's a real personal turn off.
When it comes to the orcs I find the same thing. I just don't like the look. I do however really like their elves.
So far their sci-fi just doesn't fit my taste, but if they ever come up with something that I actually like the look of I'll give them a shot.
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Post by: brettz123
Vulcan wrote:I'll give you that the AOW berserkers are better looking than the Mantic bare-basic warriors. How do the AOW warriors compare to the Mantic warriors in appearance? How do the Mantic berserekers compare to the AOW berserkers.
And how does AOW compare to Mantic in pricing? For those of us who do not have an infinite amount of hobby money, that is not a factor we literally cannot afford to ignore.
By the by... if Mantic Dwarves are sucky, what's your opinion of the GW Beer-Belly Dwarves?
While I don't like the look and feel of the fat belly GW dwarves the quality of sculpt is FAR superior to the Mantic ones. Mantic dwarves are not a quality sculpt. They are cheap but they also look bad.
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Post by: Breotan
Like: Many are good for bulking up / filling out large fantasy units. Nothing really stands out but nothing is jarringly bad either.
Dislike: Asthetic is the same as the early 00's while both Avatars of War and GW are moving toward more fluid, visually exciting sculpts. Mantic doesn't seem to be interested in following the leaders.
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Post by: spaceelf
Companies do not set out to produce bad sculpts. The problem is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A project can get green lighted, and then the company finds that the gaming public at large does not like it.
It is also important to understand that producing a good plastic model takes experience. This is something that Mantic is acquiring. If we look back at GWs old plastics and metals they were horrendous as well. (See the awful SMs in the current identify this figure thread.)
I think that many of the criticisms of Mantic's dwarves are valid. However, they were one of their first efforts. Their undead look much better, and in some cases are better than GWs. Mantic's Corporation stuff looks cool. This being said, nothing that Mantic has produced thus far gotten me to open my wallet.
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Post by: biccat
nkelsch wrote:I am glad the greatest threat to the universe is ratmen in medieval armor who haven't even progressed in civilization technology to make clothing without having to cobble together scraps of fabric. Apparently all something needs to be sci-fi is fantasy with googles.
Except for the "ratmen", isn't that the Orks of 40k?
Unless you consider "they believe it works so it works" to be high-quality fluff.
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Post by: Polonius
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Dear Mantic, make cheaper alternative plastics to the GW ones so I can use them in the GW games. Make them attractive and keep them cheap.
That's all I currently want from you. I will give you money if you do this. I will not give you that money if your minis won't scale with theirs (elves...) or if the style is wildly different (orx v orks).
And I'd like more modelling options from the sprues.
Thank you!
So, you want good looking, multipose models that look like GW models?
Sounds like you just want GW to half their prices and double their range (and who doesn't?)
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Post by: RiTides
The more I see of Mantic, the less pleased I am... I'd rather pay more (and it's only slightly more now, even...) and get better quality, than pay their prices and get their quality...
The undead are exceptions, but given that undead are generally easier to sculpt (imo- softer details needed) that doesn't really improve their stock in my opinion.
Had refrained from saying this, but I've been wanting to like Mantic, but I can't. Discounted minis is great... unoriginal ideas and lackluster sculpting, however, kill it for me...
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Post by: LunaHound
Enjoy your GW then :')
we all know the only reason Mantic ( and any other small new company ) piggy back larger companies is for the stability and survival.
Like others said, seems like some of you guys just want GW product at 50% off which is fine, but the dream might never come true /wink
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Post by: ArbeitsSchu
biccat wrote:nkelsch wrote:I am glad the greatest threat to the universe is ratmen in medieval armor who haven't even progressed in civilization technology to make clothing without having to cobble together scraps of fabric. Apparently all something needs to be sci-fi is fantasy with googles.
Except for the "ratmen", isn't that the Orks of 40k?
Unless you consider "they believe it works so it works" to be high-quality fluff.
It sounds better when you call it Anzion's Theorem of Orkoid Morphic Resonant Mechanics. If you've ever seen Scrapheap Challenge/Junkyard Wars, you might find that sometimes its actually true.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Well, I know I've given Mantic every possible chance to impress me. I even bought one of their resin models (the !Squat cannon) which ranks as one of the worst sculpts I've had the misfortune to work on in years. Sure, a part of the blame goes to terrible QA, but the sculpting and parts breakdown of the kit are also lackluster and ill-conceived.
If this was the 90s, Mantic would be blowing competitors out of the water. Their weakness is that the expectations of the consumer have moved on in the past 20 years.
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Post by: Pacific
Thought this was a rather thoughtful post by a guy over on Warseer, username of JP1138.
Okay - a lot of people will say I have a vested interest in the success of Mantic Games, and that my comments are always going to be skewed in favour of the company that occasionally pays me to write for them. However, those people obviously don't know me, because I always speak exactly how I feel - a fact that has gotten me into a lot of hot water with the powers that be (and I don't just mean Mantic Games here, but film production companies I've written scripts for; publishers who wanted to release certain novels and online magazines I've written articles for). Sorry, but I say it as I see it and won't put a potential paycheque ahead of integrity.
Right. With that bit of self assessment out the way here is my take on the whole pricing debate.
I do believe the GW aesthetic has turned from the "heroic scale" to the "comical scale". Oversized, disproportionated figures that just. Look. Wrong. At least to me. You may like them and if you do that's great. Nothing wrong with that - for nearly twenty years I loved the GW look, and for certain character models I still do. If I didn't like GW I wouldn't have worked for them for ten years. I still like GW - Space Hulk, Mighty Empires, Advanced HeroQuest, Inquisitor. I still buy GW products - I think their brushes are amongst the best in the world. I am converting the IOB Skaven into Warpath Veer-myn though
Anyhoo, let's play a game. Your GW Orcs against my Mantic Orcs. First game lets use the WFB rules. Next, lets play Kings of War. Maybe two or even three games in the same amount of time... I can tell you we'll have just as much fun no matter which system we played, or what models we used. The game - and hence the FUN - isn't affected by what models you use but by what tactics you as the general employ. The fact I paid less for my army should have no effect on the game whatsoever - unless you are a complete dork - except... a personal satisfaction that in a campaign situation such as Mighty Empires where our armies grow during the course of the campaign, I an afford to buy more troops without selling a few body parts.
That's a JOKE by the way. Lighten up.
Yes, I prefer Mantic Games miniatures. Why? There's a fracking recession on that's why?!! I could buy an Undead army from Games Workshop but for the same price I could eat for a month. Equally, I could buy a Mega Army from Mantic - but I could also make sure I had enough to cover the rent. However, if I want to add a new unit to my Undead, say another regiment (20) of skeletons it will only cost me £13.99 as compared to GW's £31.00. I can justify that expense to myself, spread over a few weeks of saving. I can't justify GW's price. Sorry.
And regards aesthetics, I do prefer the true-scale of Mantic rather than the exaggerated lines of the GW products, but opinions are like butt holes, we all have one, so taste of design doesn't factor as far as I'm concerned. What do I get better value for money from? Well, for me value for money = # of models so that's Mantic hands down.
Anyway, do I like all the Mantic models? No... I was disappointed by the Forgefather/Marauder releases, hoping for unique models. Do I understand the financial/business thinking behind this decision, I think so. Might not agree with it, but I certainly understand it. A new company seeks to expand the wargaming world with a new creation or two in the most economically responsible method possible... I can get behind that.
I have some Dwarfs but they are not my favourite - although they are growing on me, sort of like a fungus...
We need to ditch the pre-concieved notions behind fantastic creations. Just because for the last XXXX years a Dwarf is 3 feet high, and a stunted human form, doesn't mean they can't be reinvented as stocky five feet brick shathouses. Same with the Elves, the Mantic design is a fresh take on an old design.
A lot of the wargaming community need to re-evaluate their definition of the word: "original".
Right. Rant off. Carry on.
Cheers
JP
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Post by: nkelsch
biccat wrote:nkelsch wrote:I am glad the greatest threat to the universe is ratmen in medieval armor who haven't even progressed in civilization technology to make clothing without having to cobble together scraps of fabric. Apparently all something needs to be sci-fi is fantasy with googles.
Except for the "ratmen", isn't that the Orks of 40k?
Unless you consider "they believe it works so it works" to be high-quality fluff.
Orks have a reproductive cycle which is designed on massive casualties and are a genetically engineered race with knowledge transfer built in to their DNA which makes them actually a threat.
The reason why the 40k universe is so grimdark is the humanoid races simply can't compete with the evil races slowly murdering them and reproducing faster than humans can.
So I see nothing that the ratmen of MANTIC's universe shares anything in common with the orks of 40k. The only way the 8th race is any kind of threat is if they can overcome the inherit limitations of being a mammalian reproductive race. And considering they are just a skaven rip-off, it really doesn't impress me in the slightest.
Good fluff and a cohesive universe people actually give a damn about goes a long way towards selling models. That is why all these knock-off companies who are like 'we don't care about the fluff, just buy our cheap models because they are GW wannabees" have no appeal to me.
And I declare shenanigans when some broom-shaped water-carrier for mantic says 'the models don't matter when you have fun'. How can they claim to be selling models that are great then say the models don't matter because the rules are all that matters?
Sorry... the models do matter and do impact the fun. I enjoy seeing my models which I have had many for over a decade running around in a cool universe and having lives of their own. "I want cheap models, there is a recession" is bullcrap and has no worth to me. I see people who can't even paint what they have and would play with peanuts and Hershey kisses and eat their casualties if people would play with them. They grudgingly buy models because otherwise people won't play with them. And Mantic models are not that cheap... at least not cheap enough to justify the poor quality sculpts.
Frankly all that matters is the models. If they made good models people wanted, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Other model lines make amazing models, people buy them and no one says a word about comparing them to GW. If someone has to make justifications on why I should give the model a chance then the model isn't good enough to be bought.
I like Hero-scale models, I also like SD anime models and I like privateer presses cartoony style models. I also like LotR real scale. A good sculpt is a good sculpt regardless of the style. mantic watercarriers are beating the drum about realistic scale, they are still bad sculpts regardless of the scale or design.
And people love nelson orks... there is a reason there are dozens of 3rd party companies who make nothing but nelson-looking orks. Ork collectors like them.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
RiTides wrote:The more I see of Mantic, the less pleased I am... I'd rather pay more (and it's only slightly more now, even...) and get better quality, than pay their prices and get their quality...
The undead are exceptions, but given that undead are generally easier to sculpt (imo- softer details needed) that doesn't really improve their stock in my opinion.
Had refrained from saying this, but I've been wanting to like Mantic, but I can't. Discounted minis is great... unoriginal ideas and lackluster sculpting, however, kill it for me...
Finally, someone who holds Mantic in the same opinion as me. The only area where I disagree with you is when you say that you "Like" the undead. Sorry, but the skeletons and reapers are just sad, especially when you compare them to GW's latest VC offerings. Mantic seems to be way too devoted to "true" scale models, to the point where their skeletons look silly with their tiny skulls (which are, BTW, somehow scowling-which makes no sense, as bone is typically considered to be rigid, and thus unable to show emotion...).
Sorry I am such a hater.
_Tim?
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Post by: biccat
nkelsch wrote:Orks have a reproductive cycle which is designed on massive casualties and are a genetically engineered race with knowledge transfer built in to their DNA which makes them actually a threat.
The Ork fluff:
They're green because they're full of fungus. When they die the fungus can make new orks.
They aren't technologically advanced, things work for them simply because they think they should work.
Orks all have the same technology, the knowledge is embedded in their DNA.
Everything else is post-hoc.
Sure, put all together and extrapolated out a bit, it actually sounds pretty reasonable. But the basic fluff - which is what you're complaining about with the ratmen - is pretty bland.
nkelsch wrote:So I see nothing that the ratmen of MANTIC's universe shares anything in common with the orks of 40k. The only way the 8th race is any kind of threat is if they can overcome the inherit limitations of being a mammalian reproductive race.
Mammalian reproduction is actually pretty darn good. Ask some Aussies about rabbits and you can get a good idea of how successful rabbits can breed when there aren't a lot of natural predators. But I'm not sure what specific limitations you're talking about.
nkelsch wrote:Good fluff and a cohesive universe people actually give a damn about goes a long way towards selling models. That is why all these knock-off companies who are like 'we don't care about the fluff, just buy our cheap models because they are GW wannabees" have no appeal to me.
GW has had 20 years to establish their fluff and world. To expect the same level of detail from a startup company is stacking the deck.
I see nothing wrong with Mantic selling themselves as a cheap GW knockoff, whether they legitimately are or not. The fact is, GW's miniatures are expensive, often prohibitively expensive.
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Post by: brettz123
spaceelf wrote:Companies do not set out to produce bad sculpts. The problem is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A project can get green lighted, and then the company finds that the gaming public at large does not like it.
It is also important to understand that producing a good plastic model takes experience. This is something that Mantic is acquiring. If we look back at GWs old plastics and metals they were horrendous as well. (See the awful SMs in the current identify this figure thread.)
I think that many of the criticisms of Mantic's dwarves are valid. However, they were one of their first efforts. Their undead look much better, and in some cases are better than GWs. Mantic's Corporation stuff looks cool. This being said, nothing that Mantic has produced thus far gotten me to open my wallet.
While no miniature company aims to release ugly miniatures they still do. The problem is that mantic miniatures are not quality sculpts. They would be average sculpts if this was 1995 and only if you were considering plastic vs plastic. I think there is a place for mantic in the market place and there is no problem with riding the coat tales of other companies. Most miniature companies either do that now or started doing that. I know most of you haven't been collecting miniatures for long enough to know this but Citadel / GW got its start by making generic miniatures for RPGs (ie AD&D). So knocking a company for not having a developed background just like a 30 year old company is a little foolish.
But that still doesn't change the fact that mantic miniatures are subpar even for the price they charge. And frankly there is no excuse for that. They can see what their miniatures are going to look like before they produce them. I mean those dwarves really look bad.
And comparing mantic miniatures qualities to one that is 25 years old isn't a good way of defending mantic quality. That Space Marine is a horrible miniature in a fairly quality range of miniatures while the Mantic dwarves are a poorly sculpted miniature in a range of mostly poorly sculpted miniatures. There is a big difference.
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Post by: lord marcus
brettz123 wrote:spaceelf wrote:Companies do not set out to produce bad sculpts. The problem is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A project can get green lighted, and then the company finds that the gaming public at large does not like it.
It is also important to understand that producing a good plastic model takes experience. This is something that Mantic is acquiring. If we look back at GWs old plastics and metals they were horrendous as well. (See the awful SMs in the current identify this figure thread.)
I think that many of the criticisms of Mantic's dwarves are valid. However, they were one of their first efforts. Their undead look much better, and in some cases are better than GWs. Mantic's Corporation stuff looks cool. This being said, nothing that Mantic has produced thus far gotten me to open my wallet.
While no miniature company aims to release ugly miniatures they still do. The problem is that mantic miniatures are not quality sculpts. They would be average sculpts if this was 1995 and only if you were considering plastic vs plastic. I think there is a place for mantic in the market place and there is no problem with riding the coat tales of other companies. Most miniature companies either do that now or started doing that. I know most of you haven't been collecting miniatures for long enough to know this but Citadel / GW got its start by making generic miniatures for RPGs (ie AD&D). So knocking a company for not having a developed background just like a 30 year old company is a little foolish. It also makes sense. Games workshop has had 30 odd years, mantic has had 3.
But that still doesn't change the fact that mantic miniatures are subpar even for the price they charge. And frankly there is no excuse for that. They can see what their miniatures are going to look like before they produce them. I mean those dwarves really look bad. in your opinion
And comparing mantic miniatures qualities to one that is 25 years old isn't a good way of defending mantic quality. That Space Marine is a horrible miniature in a fairly quality range of miniatures while the Mantic dwarves are a poorly sculpted miniature in a range of mostly poorly sculpted miniatures. There is a big difference. He was not comparing them. He was stating that GW made some #$@$-looking mini's (in his rightful opinion) back in the day. you took that statement and turned it into something else.
quoted comments in red and green.
Quality is subjective.
For instance, Mantic's undead are wonderfully casted, with little moldlines = quality.
In addition, there seems to be nothing wrong with the sculpting quality (i.e. no tears or undefined points) therefore they are quality sculpts.
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Post by: brettz123
lord marcus wrote:brettz123 wrote:spaceelf wrote:Companies do not set out to produce bad sculpts. The problem is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A project can get green lighted, and then the company finds that the gaming public at large does not like it.
It is also important to understand that producing a good plastic model takes experience. This is something that Mantic is acquiring. If we look back at GWs old plastics and metals they were horrendous as well. (See the awful SMs in the current identify this figure thread.)
I think that many of the criticisms of Mantic's dwarves are valid. However, they were one of their first efforts. Their undead look much better, and in some cases are better than GWs. Mantic's Corporation stuff looks cool. This being said, nothing that Mantic has produced thus far gotten me to open my wallet.
While no miniature company aims to release ugly miniatures they still do. The problem is that mantic miniatures are not quality sculpts. They would be average sculpts if this was 1995 and only if you were considering plastic vs plastic. I think there is a place for mantic in the market place and there is no problem with riding the coat tales of other companies. Most miniature companies either do that now or started doing that. I know most of you haven't been collecting miniatures for long enough to know this but Citadel / GW got its start by making generic miniatures for RPGs (ie AD&D). So knocking a company for not having a developed background just like a 30 year old company is a little foolish. It also makes sense. Games workshop has had 30 odd years, mantic has had 3.
But that still doesn't change the fact that mantic miniatures are subpar even for the price they charge. And frankly there is no excuse for that. They can see what their miniatures are going to look like before they produce them. I mean those dwarves really look bad. in your opinion
And comparing mantic miniatures qualities to one that is 25 years old isn't a good way of defending mantic quality. That Space Marine is a horrible miniature in a fairly quality range of miniatures while the Mantic dwarves are a poorly sculpted miniature in a range of mostly poorly sculpted miniatures. There is a big difference. He was not comparing them. He was stating that GW made some #$@$-looking mini's (in his rightful opinion) back in the day. you took that statement and turned it into something else.
quoted comments in red and green.
Quality is subjective.
For instance, Mantic's undead are wonderfully casted, with little moldlines = quality.
In addition, there seems to be nothing wrong with the sculpting quality (i.e. no tears or undefined points) therefore they are quality sculpts.
Umm no casting quality does not equal a good sculpt it equals a good cast. They two things are different. You can have a poorly sculpted miniature cast well and you can have a very nicely sculpted miniature cast poorly (just look at finecast!). But absolutely they are not the same thing. Sculpt quality is a matter of artistic talent / technical ability of the sculptor. Mantic sculpts are no where near the quality of say Reaper, the Perrys, Victrix, or Warmachine. Anyone who argues that they are is not looking at things rationally.
Now that doesn't mean you can't find them worth the asking price but don't come on and say that they are anywhere near the quality of top miniature producers because they aren't. Mantic miniautes for the most part have the artistic / technical quality of a 1990s sculpt. If that is what you are looking for at the price point fair enough but don't pretend like they are anywhere near the top of the heap when it comes to sculpt quality. Again I am talking about the sculpt not how well it is cast.
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Post by: Polonius
I have to admit, I like mantic's stuff, but the detail is generaglly less in both quantity and quality over a similar sculpt from a "big company."
The elves (the range I'm most familiar with) had a lot of "fades" between detail sections.
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Post by: lord marcus
brettz123 wrote:lord marcus wrote:brettz123 wrote:spaceelf wrote:Companies do not set out to produce bad sculpts. The problem is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. A project can get green lighted, and then the company finds that the gaming public at large does not like it.
It is also important to understand that producing a good plastic model takes experience. This is something that Mantic is acquiring. If we look back at GWs old plastics and metals they were horrendous as well. (See the awful SMs in the current identify this figure thread.)
I think that many of the criticisms of Mantic's dwarves are valid. However, they were one of their first efforts. Their undead look much better, and in some cases are better than GWs. Mantic's Corporation stuff looks cool. This being said, nothing that Mantic has produced thus far gotten me to open my wallet.
While no miniature company aims to release ugly miniatures they still do. The problem is that mantic miniatures are not quality sculpts. They would be average sculpts if this was 1995 and only if you were considering plastic vs plastic. I think there is a place for mantic in the market place and there is no problem with riding the coat tales of other companies. Most miniature companies either do that now or started doing that. I know most of you haven't been collecting miniatures for long enough to know this but Citadel / GW got its start by making generic miniatures for RPGs (ie AD&D). So knocking a company for not having a developed background just like a 30 year old company is a little foolish. It also makes sense. Games workshop has had 30 odd years, mantic has had 3.
But that still doesn't change the fact that mantic miniatures are subpar even for the price they charge. And frankly there is no excuse for that. They can see what their miniatures are going to look like before they produce them. I mean those dwarves really look bad. in your opinion
And comparing mantic miniatures qualities to one that is 25 years old isn't a good way of defending mantic quality. That Space Marine is a horrible miniature in a fairly quality range of miniatures while the Mantic dwarves are a poorly sculpted miniature in a range of mostly poorly sculpted miniatures. There is a big difference. He was not comparing them. He was stating that GW made some #$@$-looking mini's (in his rightful opinion) back in the day. you took that statement and turned it into something else.
quoted comments in red and green.
Quality is subjective.
For instance, Mantic's undead are wonderfully casted, with little moldlines = quality.
In addition, there seems to be nothing wrong with the sculpting quality (i.e. no tears or undefined points) therefore they are quality sculpts.
Umm no casting quality does not equal a good sculpt it equals a good cast. They two things are different. You can have a poorly sculpted miniature cast well and you can have a very nicely sculpted miniature cast poorly (just look at finecast!). But absolutely they are not the same thing. Sculpt quality is a matter of artistic talent / technical ability of the sculptor. Mantic sculpts are no where near the quality of say Reaper, the Perrys, Victrix, or Warmachine. Anyone who argues that they are is not looking at things rationally.
Now that doesn't mean you can't find them worth the asking price but don't come on and say that they are anywhere near the quality of top miniature producers because they aren't. Mantic miniautes for the most part have the artistic / technical quality of a 1990s sculpt. If that is what you are looking for at the price point fair enough but don't pretend like they are anywhere near the top of the heap when it comes to sculpt quality. Again I am talking about the sculpt not how well it is cast.
I understand that. I was differentiating between the two.
as i said, mantics figures have nothing wrong sculpting wise as far as quality and technical faults go. If you think that isn't true, well that is your opinion but it isn't everyone's.
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Post by: Vulcan
Intriguing.
"I don't like the look of Mantic miniatures, therefore they are (descriptor ranging from 'poor sculpts' to 'absolute crap'!"
Well, I DO like the Mantic Dwarf line. Are there places where they could be better? Definitely. But for under a dollar a mini, I don't expect AoW detail. For the price - or even a bit more - they are great, at least in my opinion. Frankly, I think the posing and build of the Mantic Dwarves blows GW out of the water. I want my Dwarves to look like they are trained and disciplined fighters, not a bunch of guys who swill beer for a living and dragged themselves off the couch for the battle. Yes, that's what I think of the GW beer-belly sculpts. Obviously other people think differently, and that is their right.
Your opinion differs. That's fine. But don't berate me for liking my plain vanilla because you love mint ripple fudge with all the extra sprinkles and stuff.
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Post by: Pacific
brettz123 wrote:
While no miniature company aims to release ugly miniatures they still do. The problem is that mantic miniatures are not quality sculpts. They would be average sculpts if this was 1995 and only if you were considering plastic vs plastic.
I could not disagree more. While everyone is entitled to their opinion in terms of what is aesthetically pleasing, to say that the Mantic miniatures are, in their entirety, worse than GW's own is patently false.
Orcs - I actually prefer the miniature on the right. With perhaps the exception of the shield being a molded part of the arm, I think it's a great little sculpt. I'm choosing to collect these rather than the GW ones, simply because I am a fan of the style, that the miniature on the right costs about a third by comparison is a nice (and I don't think insignificant) bonus
And for Imperial Guard, I posted this comparison in the News thread but think it could do with repeating here. As a way of experiment I asked a couple of non gaming friends, which of the models below they deemed to look the most expensive/detailed. I wasn't surprised in the least with the fact that, when comparing the Cadian and Mantic Corporation minis, they chose the latter.
That the Cadian miniatures are 50% more expensive I find mind boggling, and looking at the two by way of comparison it wouldn't surprise me at all if they start to become a more common option for people starting an IG army, let alone playing Warpath.
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Post by: brettz123
Vulcan wrote:Intriguing.
"I don't like the look of Mantic miniatures, therefore they are (descriptor ranging from 'poor sculpts' to 'absolute crap'!"
Well, I DO like the Mantic Dwarf line. Are there places where they could be better? Definitely. But for under a dollar a mini, I don't expect AoW detail. For the price - or even a bit more - they are great, at least in my opinion. Frankly, I think the posing and build of the Mantic Dwarves blows GW out of the water. I want my Dwarves to look like they are trained and disciplined fighters, not a bunch of guys who swill beer for a living and dragged themselves off the couch for the battle. Yes, that's what I think of the GW beer-belly sculpts. Obviously other people think differently, and that is their right.
Your opinion differs. That's fine. But don't berate me for liking my plain vanilla because you love mint ripple fudge with all the extra sprinkles and stuff.
No one is berating you. But as you even said you like the quality at the price. I am talking absolute quality not per penny. If you like the quality you get at the price point (which certainly is better than GW) then you are talking value for your money and not quality of the sculpt. Thats all I am saying. Automatically Appended Next Post: Pacific wrote:That the Cadian miniatures are 50% more expensive I find mind boggling, and looking at the two by way of comparison it wouldn't surprise me at all if they start to become a more common option for people starting an IG army, let alone playing Warpath.
I will actually agree with you that the Corporation miniatues are good quality miniatures. But I think they are the only good quality line that mantic makes. However it is a good start and I think mantic does show some promise for the future. But having said that I still think the rest of their line is substandard. I don't think their orcs look good (of course I think the GW ones are pretty poor too). Automatically Appended Next Post: lord marcus wrote:
I understand that. I was differentiating between the two.
as i said, mantics figures have nothing wrong sculpting wise as far as quality and technical faults go. If you think that isn't true, well that is your opinion but it isn't everyone's.
Ok I think we are talking in circles. I am saying that Mantic miniatures are not the quality of the top of the line sculpts from a variety of companies. When I say that I mean that they are not as artistically appealing as say Otherworld Miniatures, Wyrd Miniatures, Perry Miniatures, Victrix Miniatures, GW, or lets say Privateer Press. Now lets take Privateer Press because it is a good example. I do not like the look and feel of Privateer Press miniatures at all but I recognize that the artists that sculpted them is artistically and technically creating a superior product. My like of the look doesn't influence my ability to recognize a quality sculpt.
What you seem to be talking about is the quality of the casting that a company makes. Am I correct in that? The Mantic miniatures I have (all metal) are quality casts no doubt about it. No flash almost no mold lines etc. I would even say at this point when you take finecast into account Mantic is better than GW in this regards. But that doesn't mean that I think that Mantic sculptors are anywhere near as good as the sculptors working for the companies above.
Now having said all of that you may still feel, because of the price difference, that you are getting better value for your money. That is a matter of preference and it is the niche that Mantic is looking to take a hold of. Nothing wrong with that but I don't think you can honestly look at the average mantic sculpt and compare it favorably to a top quality miniature from another company.
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Post by: lord marcus
brettz123 wrote:
lord marcus wrote:
I understand that. I was differentiating between the two.
as i said, mantics figures have nothing wrong sculpting wise as far as quality and technical faults go. If you think that isn't true, well that is your opinion but it isn't everyone's.
Ok I think we are talking in circles. I am saying that Mantic miniatures are not the quality of the top of the line sculpts from a variety of companies. When I say that I mean that they are not as artistically appealing as say Otherworld Miniatures, Wyrd Miniatures, Perry Miniatures, Victrix Miniatures, GW, or lets say Privateer Press. key point relating to my reply. Now lets take Privateer Press because it is a good example. I do not like the look and feel of Privateer Press miniatures at all but I recognize that the artists that sculpted them is artistically and technically creating a superior product. My like of the look doesn't influence my ability to recognize a quality sculpt.
What you seem to be talking about is the quality of the casting that a company makes. Am I correct in that? The Mantic miniatures I have (all metal) are quality casts no doubt about it. No flash almost no mold lines etc. I would even say at this point when you take finecast into account Mantic is better than GW in this regards. But that doesn't mean that I think that Mantic sculptors are anywhere near as good as the sculptors working for the companies above.
Now having said all of that you may still feel, because of the price difference, that you are getting better value for your money. That is a matter of preference and it is the niche that Mantic is looking to take a hold of. Nothing wrong with that but I don't think you can honestly look at the average mantic sculpt and compare it favorably to a top quality miniature from another company.
This is still in your opinion and you should state as such.
And no, i am not talking about just the casting quality. I'm talking about sculpting quality as well, how well the sculptor works with the details. They may not be ascetically pleasing to you, but that doesn't mean the models are not made by skilled sculptors that do good quality sculpting.
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Post by: brettz123
lord marcus wrote:brettz123 wrote:
lord marcus wrote:
I understand that. I was differentiating between the two.
as i said, mantics figures have nothing wrong sculpting wise as far as quality and technical faults go. If you think that isn't true, well that is your opinion but it isn't everyone's.
Ok I think we are talking in circles. I am saying that Mantic miniatures are not the quality of the top of the line sculpts from a variety of companies. When I say that I mean that they are not as artistically appealing as say Otherworld Miniatures, Wyrd Miniatures, Perry Miniatures, Victrix Miniatures, GW, or lets say Privateer Press. key point relating to my reply. Now lets take Privateer Press because it is a good example. I do not like the look and feel of Privateer Press miniatures at all but I recognize that the artists that sculpted them is artistically and technically creating a superior product. My like of the look doesn't influence my ability to recognize a quality sculpt.
What you seem to be talking about is the quality of the casting that a company makes. Am I correct in that? The Mantic miniatures I have (all metal) are quality casts no doubt about it. No flash almost no mold lines etc. I would even say at this point when you take finecast into account Mantic is better than GW in this regards. But that doesn't mean that I think that Mantic sculptors are anywhere near as good as the sculptors working for the companies above.
Now having said all of that you may still feel, because of the price difference, that you are getting better value for your money. That is a matter of preference and it is the niche that Mantic is looking to take a hold of. Nothing wrong with that but I don't think you can honestly look at the average mantic sculpt and compare it favorably to a top quality miniature from another company.
This is still in your opinion and you should state as such.
And no, i am not talking about just the casting quality. I'm talking about sculpting quality as well, how well the sculptor works with the details. They may not be ascetically pleasing to you, but that doesn't mean the models are not made by skilled sculptors that do good quality sculpting.
Look obviously anything either one of us states is OUR OPINION and intelligent people don't need to state that or have that stated for it to be understood.
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Post by: biccat
Pacific wrote:
I never realized how poor the GW Orc models are. Comparing the two, I have no idea how people could prefer GW's version.
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Post by: brettz123
biccat wrote:I never realized how poor the GW Orc models are. Comparing the two, I have no idea how people could prefer GW's version.
A guess would be because it is what they are used to.
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Post by: mattyrm
biccat wrote:Pacific wrote:
I never realized how poor the GW Orc models are. Comparing the two, I have no idea how people could prefer GW's version.
Agreed. I was just slagging mantics dwarves off, but that orc on the right is top notch to be fair.
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Post by: brettz123
Yeah I think it is fair to say that their orcs and corporation are step in the right direction. Don't really need any though.
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Post by: Polonius
Those orcs do look cool.
thought to be fair, that GW orc is from the 6th edition starter, and isn't really their best work.
I still don't see what's wrong with Mantic making lower quality, cheaper minis.
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Post by: Jeep
Polonius wrote:I still don't see what's wrong with Mantic making lower quality, cheaper minis.
Agreed. To me, most of them are "good 'nuff!", with some being better than that. While I don't plan on using any of them for my main army (Mantic's High Elves just don't mesh with G-Dub's), one of these days when I expand my dwarves, I'll be using the Mantic line.
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Post by: nkelsch
Pacific wrote:
Orcs - I actually prefer the miniature on the right. With perhaps the exception of the shield being a molded part of the arm, I think it's a great little sculpt. I'm choosing to collect these rather than the GW ones, simply because I am a fan of the style, that the miniature on the right costs about a third by comparison is a nice (and I don't think insignificant) bonus
The GW ork there is from 2000 and is over 12 years old... and it was by no means 3 times the price of the mantic ork, in fact, like all GW orks were easily obtainable en mass for less than 50 cents a model much how the AoBR boyz are now. You can still get dozens of those 6th edition fantasy boyz around.
So purposfully comparing the single pose 12 year old Ork as an example of GWs quality to Mantics supposed best try is laughable as even a 12 year old ork holds its own against Mantic's.
So the Mantic ork isn't cheaper, (and has never been cheaper as we have always been able to build mass orks with GW models for insanely cheap) isn't necessarily better than the alternatives GW currently produces as they have some amazing current fantasy sculpts and the Mantic ork fails in sculpt quality compared to pretty much every other mini maker out there who makes orks outside of GW. 'Being cheap' doesn't give them an excuse to suck. The GW orks were sculpted and cast a decade ago when the technology was worlds different. What's mantic's excuse for making boring, inflexible ugly sculpts?
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Post by: biccat
nkelsch wrote:So purposfully comparing the single pose 12 year old Ork as an example of GWs quality to Mantics supposed best try is laughable as even a 12 year old ork holds its own against Mantic's.
Holds its own? Seriously? The mantic orc is better proportioned (head, hands, feet), is in a semi-realistic pose (specifically look at the lower body, I'll grant that the upper body pose isn't characteristic of GW) and is wielding an appropriately sized weapon. All of the above are the opposite of characteristics of GW's miniatures. Plus, the Mantic orc doesn't suffer from the "I'm not wearing a helmet so I scream" syndrome. nkelsch wrote:isn't necessarily better than the alternatives GW currently produces as they have some amazing current fantasy sculpts and the Mantic ork fails in sculpt quality compared to pretty much every other mini maker out there who makes orks outside of GW.
I would buy these Orcs if I were making a fantasy Orc army. They're better looking than GW's sculpts, cost less, and most importantly, are available in plastic (most other companies don't make plastic figs).
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Post by: mattyrm
Whilst I agreed with Bic initially (the right is clearly better) I wasnt aware how old the model is.
It is correct to say that GWs models have gotten far better as well. Some of their newer orcs are awesome. I love the Black Orcs for example.
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Post by: brettz123
mattyrm wrote: Whilst I agreed with Bic initially (the right is clearly better) I wasnt aware how old the model is.
It is correct to say that GWs models have gotten far better as well. Some of their newer orcs are awesome. I love the Black Orcs for example.
Yeah being 12 years old does change things a little bit. Makes me feel old but I forgot how long ago these things came out. It is also a single piece miniature from a starter set which means it is intentionally produced as a simple miniature and not the quality of most of the line. Having said that I think the Mantic one is still nicer but not much nicer.
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Post by: biccat
mattyrm wrote: Whilst I agreed with Bic initially (the right is clearly better) I wasnt aware how old the model is.
It is correct to say that GWs models have gotten far better as well. Some of their newer orcs are awesome. I love the Black Orcs for example.
I like the Black Orcs too. In fact, I've got 20 of them sitting on my shelf to paint.
But it shouldn't matter that the Orc sculpt is 12 years old, that is the product that Mantic is competing against.
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Post by: brettz123
biccat wrote:mattyrm wrote: Whilst I agreed with Bic initially (the right is clearly better) I wasnt aware how old the model is.
It is correct to say that GWs models have gotten far better as well. Some of their newer orcs are awesome. I love the Black Orcs for example.
I like the Black Orcs too. In fact, I've got 20 of them sitting on my shelf to paint.
But it shouldn't matter that the Orc sculpt is 12 years old, that is the product that Mantic is competing against.
Actually it isn't as GW doesn't sell them anymore as far as I know. The Plastic orcs GW sells are multi part and not single casts. So that is incorrect. See the link below for the ones GW sells currently.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440079a&prodId=prod900162a
Same look but not the same models.
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Post by: biccat
brettz123 wrote:biccat wrote:mattyrm wrote: Whilst I agreed with Bic initially (the right is clearly better) I wasnt aware how old the model is.
It is correct to say that GWs models have gotten far better as well. Some of their newer orcs are awesome. I love the Black Orcs for example.
I like the Black Orcs too. In fact, I've got 20 of them sitting on my shelf to paint. But it shouldn't matter that the Orc sculpt is 12 years old, that is the product that Mantic is competing against.
Actually it isn't as GW doesn't sell them anymore as far as I know. The Plastic orcs GW sells are multi part and not single casts. So that is incorrect.
Aren't the multipart plastic orcs in the same style as the single-piece? Looks basically the same to me. edit: ok, so my criticism still stands.
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Post by: brettz123
The multi pose plastics are the same look and feel but I would consider them a slightly higher quality. A big problem with the GW miniature in the picture is the stupidity of the pose . But yes if you don't like the one in the picture you aren't probably going to change your mind by seeing the multi-part plastics even though there is some improvement, especially with muscle tone and the weapons.
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Post by: nkelsch
brettz123 wrote:The multi pose plastics are the same look and feel but I would consider them a slightly higher quality. A big problem with the GW miniature in the picture is the stupidity of the pose . But yes if you don't like the one in the picture you aren't probably going to change your mind by seeing the multi-part plastics even though there is some improvement, especially with muscle tone and the weapons.
If ysomeone doesn't like Nelson's gorilla orks, nothing will convince them to like the proportions or the gorrilla butt design. Lots of people like Nelson orks. There are whole communities based around the love of the modern GW ork asthetic and other companies who emulate it's design. Those were released in those poses explicitly to be a non-multipart and rank up. Every other ork had one arm down at his side and they used that to rank. The archer boyz in that same set actually were very cool models.
When GW released the night goblin singlepart they did a much better job mostly because the technology changed and they could do more advanced things. The monopose night goblins were much better than the previous multipart night goblins.
I will take LotR orks for a realistic sculpt over Mantics any day of the week, but I also am also not really giving a damn about 'realistic' scale. I have recently gotten into http://www.avatars-of-war.com/ which makes some fantastic models IMHO. THey are slowly expanding to troops and I think they are basically doing it right in a way that makes them an actual alternative because their models actually look amazing. Since Avatars of War seem to be able to make great awesome models, I am not sure why I should be expected to accept substandard quality models from Mantic.
Mantic's orcs simply look terrible compared to what other companies are producing. 'being cheap' means nothing to me as I don't spend hours painting a model and decades gaming with it if it looks ugly. If I was looking for cheap and didn't care about the sculpts, I would be gaming with legos, tiddlywinks or green army men.
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Post by: biccat
nkelsch wrote:Mantic's orcs simply look terrible compared to what other companies are producing.
What other (not- GW) companies are you referring to that produce rank & file orc models?
Avatars of War produce fantastic miniatures, but they aren't rank & file.
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Post by: FabricatorGeneralMike
These corperation mini's look great. I think I might mix them in with some Pig Iron ones if I decide to do 28mm skirmish for Tomorrow's War. Even if I don't I might just still pick some up to paint. I really like the look of them.
With some 3rd party grav-belts or anti-grav packs they could make some nice looking drop troops IMHO.
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Post by: lord marcus
The rangers have grav chute packs.
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Post by: -Loki-
See, those Corporation troops are top notch - but they're WIP (at least I hope so - if they need that much green stuff under the shoulders just to assemble a plastic model, they've failed entirely). Lets see how the actual cast comes out.
edit - so I checked out the website and saw their available stuff. Quality dropped a little from those masters, but not a huge amount. Those are actually decent models - kudos to Mantic for making something I actually like finally.
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Post by: orkork
I never really was a fan of the GW Orks. To me they look comical and don't look like they should be taken seriously. Being a modeler, not a gamer, I've always seen them as a comic relief of Warhammer. I've always thought they would appeal to people who don't like traditional armies (SM, Eldar, etc). I'e always thought of their look as if taking a walk on the wild side or marching to a different tune. I have built some of their stuff and their look eventually grown on me.
For me, I'd take the Mantic Orks over the GW. To me, they look a lot more business then the whimsical Orks of GW. I have built both Mantic and GW, but I'd choose the Mantic ones any day. My only gripe with them is the simple part break down of the figure. With the GW Orks, it's a lot easier to make custom poses over the Mantic ones. (Torso twist is a very important aspect of posing. Ask any Gundam modeler). GW also offers, so much more option parts so you can go nuts over the variety of poses/configurations. As far as the sculpting for Mantic goes, I think they're not bad. For me, what can make/break a finished model is ultimately the modeler. After browsing through many, many member galleries, I've seen some people do totally awesome work on less then stellar models. In fact, some painters here have inspired me to buy stuff which I'm not even interested in.
Mantic is still a fairly new company. In some ways it's unfair to compare GW to Mantic. It's like comparing a Level 3 Orc Warrior, to a Level 25 Warrior. Mantic is still in it's infancy yet. Who knows how much capital they had when they first started their company. Everyone starts from the bottom and works their way up.
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Post by: Dais
I love the vision of Mantic and what they are trying to be, I just think they fall short a bit too often. Being the cheaper and more friendly little brother of GW that provides the same experience for less is a nice thought. I can't really get behind their constant copycat tactics though, they have all these army releases planned for years spanning two games and I'm not sure if there is a single Mantic original idea in all of it. I get that gw alternatives are their bread and butter but let's see a little glimpse of what will come after it is all released. Their prices have also crept a bit too high for their quality lately, but quality on future kits can always be improved to make up the value. The corporation troops look like a big step up in quality so far so we might see better value again soon.
Their game rules are clean, but so stripped down they strike me as very bland. I tried the warpath beta and there were some fundamental aspects of the game that did not appeal to me. I loved the idea of a true alternative game to 40k and fantasy but the rules for their games give me the disappointing impression they are just an excuse to sell models for GW games rather than a genuine effort.
I still see a lot of potential in Mantic but they need to mix in something new with all the old rehashes they are producing to win me over. I have a hard time getting a feel for what their company's identity is when it wears the gw mask all the time.
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Post by: LunaHound
Mantic is expanding too fast, and unnecessarily.
Majority of the customers are buying it for cheap alternatives, not for the sake of playing Mantic's own game.
Hence there are simply no reason for them to expand so many races in a panic ( Goblins, Dark Kins, Abyssal Dwarves )
They should do a good job for the most main stream armies, profit from there, and then expend.
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Post by: AlexHolker
LunaHound wrote:Mantic is expanding too fast, and unnecessarily.
Majority of the customers are buying it for cheap alternatives, not for the sake of playing Mantic's own game.
Hence there are simply no reason for them to expand so many races in a panic ( Goblins, Dark Kins, Abyssal Dwarves )
They should do a good job for the most main stream armies, profit from there, and then expend.
Or perhaps do a metal unit of prototypes for each race, get feedback and then work on the production models. That would help avoid the screwy anatomy that almost every one of their lines has shown, if their sculptors actually had to work towards the same objective.
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Post by: LunaHound
AlexHolker wrote:LunaHound wrote:Mantic is expanding too fast, and unnecessarily.
Majority of the customers are buying it for cheap alternatives, not for the sake of playing Mantic's own game.
Hence there are simply no reason for them to expand so many races in a panic ( Goblins, Dark Kins, Abyssal Dwarves )
They should do a good job for the most main stream armies, profit from there, and then expend.
Or perhaps do a metal unit of prototypes for each race, get feedback and then work on the production models. That would help avoid the screwy anatomy that almost every one of their lines has shown, if their sculptors actually had to work towards the same objective.
No it wont. Because screwy anatomy is a personal perspective.
Before you know it, everyone will want it to be GW wack job anatomy, and thats certainly not accurate either.
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Post by: scarletsquig
^ Alex is entirely right on that point.
Opinions of sculpts are of course entirely personal *but* the internet (and the public) at large does come to an agreement.
E.g. "elves are bad", "undead are good".. "fantasy bitz forgefathers are bad", "corporation are good".
.. those are the kind of opinions that are basically universal when you take into account mass feedback as a whole.
The metal goblins from mantic were a great idea.
They were a test prototype for the race, Mantic only released them in metal for the sole purpose of obtaining feedback on the sculpt style. I'm not making this up, this is a fact that was directly stated on their blog.
Unfortunately the internet spent more time whining and moaning about them being metal instead of offering their opinions on the sculpts, which was what Mantic actually wanted to hear. 
Thankfully, a few dozen people dropped by their blog and gave some good feedback where it actually matters. Now we know that when we do get plastic goblins (coming later this year!), they are going to look awesome, because the metal ones do, and any plastics will be designed to match that sculpt style now that Mantic knows that we like the look of them.
Much better than Mantic not showing us anything and just going ahead and splashing out on a plastic sprue without having the slightest clue about whether the general public will like the sculpt or not.
So yeah, Alex is right that the approach taken with the goblins is absolutely the best way to go about doing QC on the sculpting style.
As for Mantic making everything in stupid GW heroic scale proportions, I don't think they're going to make that mistake again... I say again, because that's what happened with the KoW Dwarfs... before that release, the entire internet was whining and bawling that the elves and undead look like stupid stick figures and they can't use them in warhammers because they don't look like their warhammers etc. etc. So, Mantic made the KoW Dwarfs heroic scale.
The KoW Dwarfs are the only sculpts that Mantic made heroic scale (their hands and feet are oversized just like on GW models).
There was a whole year on the internet where basically Mantic's entire feedback was people on forums crying out for heroic scale sculpts. I'm glad that that idiotic opinion has been consigned to the trash heap now that people with a greater knowledge of non- GW games are forming the bulk of the feedback for the company.
The current "popular opinion" that mantic should be less like GW is a much better one IMO, even if it does get expressed in an extremely ridiculous manner by some people (a lot of whom then go into a chapterhouse studios thread and give gushing praise to their latest release right after making a "Mantic steals from GW" rant  ). I agree with the opinion, but the hypocrisy I constantly see from some people who hold it is unbearable.
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Post by: Pacific
Quite a good review of Warpath on the Frontline Gamer blog, well worth a read for anyone interested!
http://thefrontlinegamer.blogspot.com/2012/03/games-that-currently-intrigue-me.html
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Post by: filbert
Good stuff - I like his blogs, always informative and a good read.
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