So, there is a topic in Tournament Discussions regarding whether or not FW should be allowed in tournaments here.

As crops up in pretty much every FW thread, a few people say that some FW units are overpowered, and some complain the opposite. So, lets hear it, Dakkaroos: What are, in your opinion, the most broken, imbalanced Forge World units and why?

(Please note this thread is not about the monetary cost of FW, how good or bad their casting quality is, etc etc, so please lets try and keep it on topic - thanks!)

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My vote for most unbalanced might be the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod. A drop pod that's 50 points and allows your dreadnought to assault? Blood Angels can take them? Seems undercosted to me.

For me, a lot of the FW "imbalance" is the uneven expansion it gives to different armies.

For an IG player, "allowing" Forgeworld opens up a gazillion of new, different and additional options that he can use to improve his list. To a Necron or Dark Eldar player, "allowing" Forgeworld adds virtually nothing (yes, I know there are one or two fig-leaf units FW made for those).

Thus, bringing FW into the fold "unbalances" the game to the extend that it gives some armies a vastly greater amount of options to choose from, exploit enemy weaknesses and deter the opponent's ability to prepare, know or anticipate his tactics, while it does noting for others. This inevitably skews the game.

I wouldn't let FW in the door of a tournament.

Worst abusers?

I'd say the first is probably death korps. Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp, or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys. That and I know they have some other pretty sketchy vehicles as well.

Because, even moreso than GW, which actually needs to care about the quality of its rules set, FW is no more than a company that sells miniatures, and will do whatever it takes to sell them.

What was that IG artillery that was Strength 9 Ordinance AP 2 twin-linked for like 35 points?
Here it is, GRAIA PATTERN RAPIER LASER DESTROYER. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/r/rapier.pdf
40 points for AV 11/10/10 36" Strength 9 AP 1 twin-linked.

Yeah, that's a good one. In order to accomplish this with the nearest codex analogue (sentinels), you'd need to spend 165 points, and you still wouldn't have AV11.

If I had the option to take these, every list of mine would start by putting down the 370 points for 9 of them and then watching as all of my opponent's vehicles and monstrous creatures (and terminators) disappeared by the end of turn 2.

I think you have to be selective in what FW you allow in your tournaments.



The vast majority of FW rules are underpowered/overcosted. Then there are a few that are the opposite.

the DKoK rules are slightly over powered, but they are older rules. I hear they were recently updated, they might be better now.

Things that are simply tack-ons to existing codices I think are ok for the most part.

Contemptor Dreadnoughts, Ceastus Assault Rams, Ork Flak Traks, Dreadmobs, Grot Tanks, and XV9s are all perfectly fine for normal games IMO.

Ailaros wrote:I wouldn't let FW in the door of a tournament.

Worst abusers?

I'd say the first is probably death korps. Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp, or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys. That and I know they have some other pretty sketchy vehicles as well.

Because, even moreso than GW, which actually needs to care about the quality of its rules set, FW is no more than a company that sells miniatures, and will do whatever it takes to sell them.

How are they all taking Power Fists? I just read the list in Imperial Armor V, and only the Watchmaster in each Infantry Squad can take a Power Fist. The would equal 7 Power Fists in a full size Infantry Platoon, including the Platoon Command.

Another bitch thread about Forgeworld...

The Death Korps cannot take IG codex units, so no Priest, no Straken. They can't take heavy weapons in squads and each guardsman is more expensive than a regular guy.

Also the Laser Rapier is an ARTILLERY unit, they die to a light breeze making them FAR more easy to kill than sentinels. They also take a Heavy Slot meaning they compete with Russes and Artillery for organization slots.

The Lucius pod has also been nerfed so it immobilizes the Dread in 1/6 chance.

Overall, I would say that the character Dread from IA11 is the most imbalanced, being Venerable and having living metal, but costs more than a Land Raider.

Ailaros wrote:Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

I'd argue that 3 extra points per Guardsman is fairly steep, when they start at 5 points. Also, I don't see fists available to sergeants.

Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

Given that they're not technically imperial guard, I don't believe that Straken or priests are legal.

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp,

I thought that, regardless of FW or no, superheavies are illegal outside of Apocalypse scale games?

or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys.

The only unit that can use this can take demo charges, but otherwise are basically guardsmen with shotguns and carapace armor (no special weapons options).

I get that you don't like FW (or at least seem to doubt their balance), but it also seems like you're not too well informed about what options they actually have. Maybe there's some update I missed, where watchmasters count as officers? Seriously, I'm not seeing it.

@Ailaros I am slightly confused by your first post about the DKoK. There is no option that I can see for them to be able to take Straken. Also the Platoon Command Squad does not have the combined squad rule for them to join a 60-man blob unit. As far as the use of the Gorgon goes, if it is a standard tournament and not an Apoc tournament, no one would be able to bring them as they are not part of the standard DKoK army list. So really there are very few issues with the DKoK that I can see.

As far as what I have seen to be "OP" from Forge World, would be something like the GRAIA PATTERN RAPIER LASER DESTROYER that was mentioned earlier, but even then those are still "Experimental rules" (for those of you who don't think FW does any play testing). I have been running my local tournaments and have been allowing Forge World armies and units (pending TO approval) as long as they bring the most recent book with the rules for the army/units they are using. I have not had any issues with this so far.

There are units in every codex that people claim to be "OP", weather it being the IG Vendetta, cheap Space Wolf Long Fangs, or the "whole Gray Knight book". You just need to analyse what the units weaknesses are and exploit them.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

I'd argue that 3 extra points per Guardsman is fairly steep, when they start at 5 points. Also, I don't see fists available to sergeants.

Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

Given that they're not technically imperial guard, I don't believe that Straken or priests are legal.

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp,

I thought that, regardless of FW or no, superheavies are illegal outside of Apocalypse scale games?

or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys.

The only unit that can use this can take demo charges, but otherwise are basically guardsmen with shotguns and carapace armor (no special weapons options).

I get that you don't like FW (or at least seem to doubt their balance), but it also seems like you're not too well informed about what options they actually have. Maybe there's some update I missed, where watchmasters count as officers? Seriously, I'm not seeing it.

Yeah, I missed some of the stuff he said, but the Death Korps can't do pretty much all those things. I suggest reading the actual book and playing the list before screaming OP!!!!

The Hades drill must take the awful engineers who can't take special weapons. Also you are right in that the Gorgon is apocalypse only and is actually unavailable to the Death Korps list.

Other vehicles unallowed are Chimeras, Valkyries, Vendettas, Basilisks, Medusas, Griffons and Bombards plus a whole other boatload of options, so if you are taking Death Korps, you pretty much are only allowed to take the basic guardsman so they damn well better be good otherwise, why would you ever use the IA list over codex IG?

There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units. Better off just asking your opponent to write their own, as long as they aren't someone who fundamentally does not understand why there are limits, and does stuff like writes data sheets for "if the officer passes the order, he can issue another order until he fails."

Snarky wrote: why would you ever use the IA list over codex IG?

I run a Armored BattleGroup because I like tanks... that's about the only reason . Oh and the Vanquisher is not useless in the ABG list!

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units.

If, as others have suggested, you actually look at the FW stuff, it's about the same as regular 40k, not generally OP.

There are some things that are overpowered, some that are on the mark, and some that are underpowered. The only major difference is that people generally know what to expect from standard 40k OP stuff, but are blindsided by FW OP stuff, because people don't run it as much.

Ouze wrote:My vote for most unbalanced might be the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod. A drop pod that's 50 points and allows your dreadnought to assault? Blood Angels can take them? Seems undercosted to me.

It's now 65 points and if you assault on the turn you land, you have to make a dangerous terrain check first. Blood Angels may not take them outside of Apoc games (they aren't on the list of codecies that allow them). The Drop Pods also don't get any guns or a locator beacon.

And I agree with you on their over-powered-ness.

Ailaros wrote:I wouldn't let FW in the door of a tournament.

Worst abusers?

I'd say the first is probably death korps. Regular imperial guard platoons can make 55-man power blobs with 5 special weapons and 10 power weapons. In DKoK-land, you can take 66-man power blobs, and they come with WS4, which means that they are 33% more killy against WS3 units, and 25% harder to kill by WS4 units. That and you can take them up to size 66 (which can take an order to give them a 2+ cover save, good luck killing that). That, and instead of being restricted to power weapons, everyone can take POWER FISTS. That and they have even more special rules, all for basically no cost increase, as far as their massive hike in effectiveness is concerned.

No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

DKoK also has some other pretty OTT stuff, like the AV14 transport that can carry 50 models and comes with an assault ramp, or that drill thing that can ram vehicles anywhere on the board from somewhere off the board, and then pile out a bunch of melta or plasmagun guys. That and I know they have some other pretty sketchy vehicles as well.

Because, even moreso than GW, which actually needs to care about the quality of its rules set, FW is no more than a company that sells miniatures, and will do whatever it takes to sell them.

I think this is the first time I've ever seen the DKoK list complained about. The 50 model transport is a superheavy that requires games to allow superheavies (e.g. apoc games) and isn't an "always available" option. Yeah, they're power blobs are better, they also lack chimeras, heavy weapons in infantry squads (only have heavy weapon squads and IIRC no special weapon squads), and their infantry units cost *20%* more than their codex equivalents. They have no veterans option (engineers are not veterans), no Valks/Vendettas, fewer special weapon upgrade availability options, most of their heavy weapons squads are more expensive, their artillery options are supremely fragile, etc.

They also cannot take Straken or Priests, they are their own list, not an addition to the IG Codex.

The list is available for free on FW's website, if you take the time to actually read it, I think you'll see it's anything but OP.

Ailaros wrote:There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units

Take the time to actually read them and you'll find the truth is far different. Aside from a small clutch of relatively recent SM stuff, you'll find complaints are very rare.




The only FW units I have an issue with that I've come across recently are the Dread drop pods. They adjusted the invicilandraider enough that it's useable and the Caestus as well got a 50pt price bump from its original cost.

Ouze wrote:
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My vote for most unbalanced might be the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod. A drop pod that's 50 points and allows your dreadnought to assault? Blood Angels can take them? Seems undercosted to me.

If my memory serves correctly, that update is from before the Blood Angels got an actual book.

Per Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2(the most recent publication with rules for the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod), Blood Angels are specifically singled out from being able to take them. They're also 65 points, rather than 50.

Anyways, I really think that for the majority of units Forge World has overpriced the units. Things like the Drop Sentinels, the Tauros, etc feel a bit too hefty in points costs.

When we talk about things like Vultures or Hell Talons, there's a bit of a difference. They can be priced a certain way and be balanced, but the problem is that if your opponent isn't aware that you'll be dropping flyers on the field it can pose problems.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units.

If, as others have suggested, you actually look at the FW stuff, it's about the same as regular 40k, not generally OP.

There are some things that are overpowered, some that are on the mark, and some that are underpowered. The only major difference is that people generally know what to expect from standard 40k OP stuff, but are blindsided by FW OP stuff, because people don't run it as much.

Did you not see what I posted above? 40 points for a 36" Strength 9 AP 1 Twin-Linked Front Armour 11 artillery.
That's 360 points for 9 of these...yeah I wouldn't play against that list.

What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Compared with, say, the imbalance of Wolf Guard costing the same basic number of points as Tactical Marines, or Long Fangs and Grey Hunters costing less than their Codex Astartes equivalents while having superior rules, Forge World's output is a model of balance - their potent units and vehicles are at least more expensive than their standard equivalents.

Okay, my fault with the hyperbole. But it's not that it 'can' be killed because anything with stats can be killed, but the amount of effort in order to pop it. It ignores lance weapons and has a passive -1 to damage rolls (I forget if it also ignored melta, but I doubt it would be that bad) and it's still av 14 all around , so anything str 8 is not going to cut it. You'd be forced to use str 9-10 weapons or something with 2d6 pen in order to not glance the thing, and with the -1 you may only shake it anyway, and it'll still fire back thanks to Machine Spirit. And if your hard hitting attacks are in melee or ramming? the classic " I move half a millimeter and now half your attacks whiff" happens, assuming the thunder cannon or the two multi-meltas don't kill it first

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Only 4 things can pen it in Nids.

Heavy Venom Cannons but need a 6 and can at most wreck it.
Rupture Cannons.
Canifexes, but need a 6 or 5+ dependent on Adrenal Glands. Broods of 3 with Crushing Claws are good for it but insanely expensive and very inflexible.
Old One Eye. See Carnifexes but will die much quicker than 3 strong broods.

Deadshot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Only 4 things can pen it in Nids.

Heavy Venom Cannons but need a 6 and can at most wreck it.
Rupture Cannons.
Canifexes, but need a 6 or 5+ dependent on Adrenal Glands. Broods of 3 with Crushing Claws are good for it but insanely expensive and very inflexible.
Old One Eye. See Carnifexes but will die much quicker than 3 strong broods.

You know that MC still get their 2D6 to pen right?

English Assassin wrote:Compared with, say, the imbalance of Wolf Guard costing the same basic number of points as Tactical Marines, or Long Fangs and Grey Hunters costing less than their Codex Astartes equivalents while having superior rules, Forge World's output is a model of balance - their potent units and vehicles are at least more expensive than their standard equivalents.

To be fair, the Space Wolves Codex is an abomination of epic poportion. The most imbalanced, uninspired and least thought-through Codex to hit the game in decades. It's not much of a Benchmark you are setting here. And just because the game has to already deal with turds like the Space Wolf book, doesn't mean it would improve by adding even more crap to the mix.

Zweischneid wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Compared with, say, the imbalance of Wolf Guard costing the same basic number of points as Tactical Marines, or Long Fangs and Grey Hunters costing less than their Codex Astartes equivalents while having superior rules, Forge World's output is a model of balance - their potent units and vehicles are at least more expensive than their standard equivalents.

To be fair, the Space Wolves Codex is an abomination of epic poportion. The most imbalanced, uninspired and least thought-through Codex to hit the game in decades. It's not much of a Benchmark you are setting here. And just because the game has to already deal with turds like the Space Wolf book, doesn't mean it would improve by adding even more crap to the mix.

Tell us how you really feel about the Space Wolves 'dex.

Zweischneid wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Compared with, say, the imbalance of Wolf Guard costing the same basic number of points as Tactical Marines, or Long Fangs and Grey Hunters costing less than their Codex Astartes equivalents while having superior rules, Forge World's output is a model of balance - their potent units and vehicles are at least more expensive than their standard equivalents.

To be fair, the Space Wolves Codex is an abomination of epic poportion. The most imbalanced, uninspired and least thought-through Codex to hit the game in decades. It's not much of a Benchmark you are setting here. And just because the game has to already deal with turds like the Space Wolf book, doesn't mean it would improve by adding even more crap to the mix.

I've never had difficulties beating SW. They're not as powerful as GK, say.
Not that neither of those armies are NOT overpowered but forgeworld is a whole different level.

I think Phil Kelly ran over his dog when he was six

When you ban Forgeworl because some choices are good, why not ban the good codizies? Why not check every unit choice if it is fair?

Anyone already checked the players and tournament organisation if they are fair and just?

Sasori wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Only 4 things can pen it in Nids.

Heavy Venom Cannons but need a 6 and can at most wreck it.
Rupture Cannons.
Canifexes, but need a 6 or 5+ dependent on Adrenal Glands. Broods of 3 with Crushing Claws are good for it but insanely expensive and very inflexible.
Old One Eye. See Carnifexes but will die much quicker than 3 strong broods.

You know that MC still get their 2D6 to pen right?

I did not. I thought it was full blown Oldcron Living Metal.

Dark Scipio wrote:When you ban Forgeworl because some choices are good, why not ban the good codizies? Why not check every unit choice if it is fair?

Anyone already checked the players and tournament organisation if they are fair and just?

Why not allow Zweischneid's own cusToM-Tank (tm)? Just gotta find my rules somewhere ... uh (scribble).. there!

Gotta draw a line someplace. FW was intentionally created to provide an outlet for the more experimental and often whacky stuff. If you make FW "official", you're defeating its very purpose of being "free" to go a bit wild in their creative processes. You'd need to create FW 2.0 to harness that freedom again, while FW 1.0 would essentially just be "mainstream GW" delivered clumsily and inefficiently through two sales-windows.

Blight Drones. Fast moving flying BattleCannons/Twin Linked Autocannons/Template weapon for I think 125 points. It's got light armour, and only BS 2, but it's still a nasty surprise to run into a demon/Chaos Marine army packing them.

Zweischneid wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:When you ban Forgeworl because some choices are good, why not ban the good codizies? Why not check every unit choice if it is fair?

Anyone already checked the players and tournament organisation if they are fair and just?

Why not allow Zweischneid's own cusToM-Tank (tm)? Just gotta find my rules somewhere ... uh (scribble).. there!

Gotta draw a line someplace.

So you place rules published by GW (through a subsidairy, FW) in the same legality as rules you scribbled on a napkin? Nice.

The line is drawn anyway. it says it in the rulebook. The rulebook and codices are 'core' rules. No opponents permission is needed further than agreeing to play the game. Anything outside of that, which encompasses Imperial Armour, Planetstrike, Battle Missions, Apocalypse, Cities of Death, etc, is discussed before you play with your opponent. They're expansions and supplements, not core rules. That's the only thing that makes them 'illegal'. Illegal as in you need your opponents permission, like anything non-core.

On topic, my least favorite goes to the Achilles as a bug player. There's precious little we have that can deal with it, as was mentioned on the previous page. MC's in assault (which need to be in range of the tanks multi meltas before you are in range to charge even with a Trygon), Rupture Cannons and Heavy Venom Cannons. Though Deadshot left off Warp Lance. There's not always going to be a Librarian hiding in it, and a pod of Zoanthropes is still throwing 3 S10, AP1 shots at it. But still, we're scraping the barrel in terms of dealing with the tank, and the suggestion of 'play around it' is stupid when that thing is throwing out 4 S6 templates around every turn as well as a couple of multimelta shots.

I honestly think the Achilles should have been made an Apocalypse unit rather than a normal 40k unit. At least then we'd have bio-cannons to add to what we can throw at it.

Deadshot wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Deadshot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

Only 4 things can pen it in Nids.

Heavy Venom Cannons but need a 6 and can at most wreck it.
Rupture Cannons.
Canifexes, but need a 6 or 5+ dependent on Adrenal Glands. Broods of 3 with Crushing Claws are good for it but insanely expensive and very inflexible.
Old One Eye. See Carnifexes but will die much quicker than 3 strong broods.

You know that MC still get their 2D6 to pen right?

I did not. I thought it was full blown Oldcron Living Metal.

No - it's not as good as Living Metal used to be.
In addition, you forgot Zoanthropes - Lance doesn't work (iirc) but it's still STR10 AP1.

It's not easy, and it's not something I'd like to count on.. but it's not impossible.

Jon Garrett wrote:Blight Drones. Fast moving flying BattleCannons/Twin Linked Autocannons/Template weapon for I think 125 points. It's got light armour, and only BS 2, but it's still a nasty surprise to run into a demon/Chaos Marine army packing them.

I agree, what makes them even worse is chaos has absolutely no fast attack units worth fielding. These things make attack bikes and landspeeders look like snotlings.

-Loki- wrote:I honestly think the Achilles should have been made an Apocalypse unit rather than a normal 40k unit. At least then we'd have bio-cannons to add to what we can throw at it.

Agreed.

Zweischneid wrote:Thus, bringing FW into the fold "unbalances" the game to the extend that it gives some armies a vastly greater amount of options to choose from, exploit enemy weaknesses and deter the opponent's ability to prepare, know or anticipate his tactics, while it does noting for others. This inevitably skews the game.

Only if:

a) you allow proxying OR
b) one player has the disposable income to spend to buy multiple copies of each FW item

AND

c) you allow list tailoring

Kaldor wrote:a) you allow proxying OR
b) one player has the disposable income to spend to buy multiple copies of each FW item

I find this humorous coming from a fellow Australia. FW stuff is in some cases cheaper than GW these days for us.

-Loki- wrote:

Kaldor wrote:a) you allow proxying OR
b) one player has the disposable income to spend to buy multiple copies of each FW item

I find this humorous coming from a fellow Australia. FW stuff is in some cases cheaper than GW these days for us.

I know, it's kinda awesome but sucks at the same time.

My point was really that while an IG player may have more FW options than, say, a Dark Eldar player, he can only really use them to his advantage if he buys two or three of each of them to 'stack' his army pool and keep his opponents guessing, and they only become really game-changing when you allow him to tailor his list to yours.

rigeld2 wrote:

Luke_Prowler wrote:What, no mention of the impossible to kill, can fire all weapons while moving, cover ignoring Land Raider Achilles?

Not impossible to kill, just very tough - even nids can one shot it.

But can Orks, barring very very unlikely random factors or close combat

Nids have S 10 guns, and Zoanthropes with Lance S 10. Of course they can one-shot it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FW units in general are a tad variable in points value to worth ratio, but then so are some codexes ..

A lot of the ork FW stuff is a tad crappy for the points (grot bomb launcher for example).

I don't mind playing against FW units if i can read them first and have veto if i think they are totally gonzoed, which some are..

Someone showing up assuming they can automatically use them, (especially if they are proxied rather than the real thing) gets less charity.

Real occurance: 2000 pt open game day.

Opponent : Do you mind if i use a couple of Forgeworld units?

My Friend : Sure, as long as it's just a couple.

Opponent: Ok, I'll be back in a sec..

(comes back with 3 Titans.... )

This is why Forgeworld tends to get the hairy eye

Jon Garrett wrote:Blight Drones. Fast moving flying BattleCannons/Twin Linked Autocannons/Template weapon for I think 125 points. It's got light armour, and only BS 2, but it's still a nasty surprise to run into a demon/Chaos Marine army packing them.

Ya it's 125, but for 25 more points you can get a defiler with WS/BS 3 a Battlecannon, 2x DCCWs, TL-Heavy Flamer, Reaper Autocannon, Fleet, and Daemonic Possession. The Blight Drones count as an explosion even if they are "wreaked" and can only be taken if you have at least 1 unit of Plague Marines. With that being said as well as the fact the Chaos Space Marines don't have any good Fast Attack choices I think they are a great addition. Also keep in mind that the Mawcannon can do either the Template or the 5" blast per turn not both. You can also take them in squadrons of up to 3... but that seems like a lot of points that can be taken out pretty easily.

so a 66 man Death korp blob squad with the watchmaster and the commissar having powerfists is something like 750 points. throw in 6 special weapons and you are over 800.

Want to know what can kill 800 points worth of guardsmen in cover? how about 800 points worth of hellhounds? 800 points of any units with flamers. Personally id just throw a single front AV 13 walker into combat with them. They can't possibly hurt the walker with str 6. A single Ironclad dread beats this entire unit for free.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:There seems to be way too much overpowering with Forge World units.

If, as others have suggested, you actually look at the FW stuff, it's about the same as regular 40k, not generally OP.

There are some things that are overpowered, some that are on the mark, and some that are underpowered. The only major difference is that people generally know what to expect from standard 40k OP stuff, but are blindsided by FW OP stuff, because people don't run it as much.

Yeah, I guess that's probably more accurate.

I think the problem is that people just use stuff that's overpowered for one-sided reasons, or at least when it's not designed for normal 40k games.

Snarky wrote:Another bitch thread about Forgeworld..

Not at all. I love FW stuff, and IA8 is my favorite book in 40k. Look at my gallery! FW stuff galore.

However, it's a constant theme that FW units are broken somehow balancewise. I'd just like to see what examples you guys are talking about.

Snarky wrote:Overall, I would say that the character Dread from IA11 is the most imbalanced, being Venerable and having living metal, but costs more than a Land Raider.

Like this, for example.

Kanluwen wrote:

Ouze wrote:
----------------------

My vote for most unbalanced might be the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod. A drop pod that's 50 points and allows your dreadnought to assault? Blood Angels can take them? Seems undercosted to me.

If my memory serves correctly, that update is from before the Blood Angels got an actual book.

Per Imperial Armour Apocalypse 2(the most recent publication with rules for the Lucius-pattern Drop Pod), Blood Angels are specifically singled out from being able to take them. They're also 65 points, rather than 50.

Anyways, I really think that for the majority of units Forge World has overpriced the units. Things like the Drop Sentinels, the Tauros, etc feel a bit too hefty in points costs.

I don't own that book, so went by what was in the PDF. Thanks for the info because that changes my opinion a bit - the fact BA are specifically exempted from it makes it more reasonable.

And, so far as the things that are "overpriced", I meant that stuff too! By all means, what units do you think are too expensive points wise for what they can do (and why?). I really have to go to work like 5 min ago so will look up the sentinels and tauros when I get there

He forgot to mention that the Lucius Pod, outside of Apocalypse, also takes up a Fast Attack slot. I don't think that ends up competing with much, but every little bit of balancing adds up.

-Loki- wrote:
The line is drawn anyway. it says it in the rulebook. The rulebook and codices are 'core' rules.

Care to quote the actual rule that states that?

(hint: there isn't one)

People keep thinking FW units are Op but they just don't really understand/read the books or rules for the units.

My army list is in noway overpowered Its underpowered compared to all the latest codexes.

DKOK are not overpowered the PDF DKOK list is a little better compared to the IA 5 list (60pts for squad rather then 80pts) still more expensive then regualr guard.

Oh and for the 50 troop transport the Gorgan is 410pts, open topped, lumbering speed, and units inside cannot fire out of it. Its hardly great for cost compared a whole lot of chimeras, I could get 8 chimeras for a total of 440pts which could carry 80 troops only 30pts more then a Gorgan

-Loki- wrote:I find this humorous coming from a fellow Australia. FW stuff is in some cases cheaper than GW these days for us.

Thats actually why I buy FW.

Ironicly I finds its cheaper then GW

Vaktathi wrote:

-Loki- wrote:
The line is drawn anyway. it says it in the rulebook. The rulebook and codices are 'core' rules.

Care to quote the actual rule that states that?

(hint: there isn't one)

Exactly,

the FW IA books also say the lists within are designed to be used with normal 40k and as such are completely legal.

FW=GW so it is the same as if GW said it was legal.


And even if its not, this entire game is based on your opponents permission. I could refuse to play against anyone using Codex: Dark Eldar because I think they look funny. I could refuse to play you if you use any Venerable Dreadnoughts...

This entire game is based on your opponents permission. hence why I think FW should be more widely accepted. Not the least of which is because if I shelled out the cash for an awsome FW model you could at least do me the courtesy of letting me use it in my games.

Most of the OP FW stuff is only OP if it gets spammed. If someone has enough money to spam FW units then he either a serious hobbiest and/or a good player that also wants his army to look good. He won't be in it for the power, and if it is then you can just refuse to play him on the grounds of him being a d-bag.

Yak9UT wrote:Oh and for the 50 troop transport the Gorgan is 410pts, open topped, lumbering speed, and units inside cannot fire out of it. Its hardly great for cost compared a whole lot of chimeras, I could get 8 chimeras for a total of 440pts which could carry 80 troops only 30pts more then a Gorgan

Yes, but the Gorgon can carry a huge combined squad, which makes it better for the assault Guard playstyle. Also, no one seems to have mentioned the fact that all DKOK can exchange their lasgun for a laspistol/ccw for free. I would love to be able to do that, although in some ways I'm glad I can't as it would be a pain to model.

As far as overpowered DKOK goes, the Medusa Siege Gun needs a mention. It is probably one of the best ranged guns in the entire game. Same stats as the normal Medusa, just with a range of 24-120. Pretty evil.

Still, DKOK has so many weaknesses that it is fairly well balanced. It is good at what it should be, a straight up fight against an enemy in front of it. Once you start outflanking/deepstriking then it gets harder for them.

Grey Templar wrote:
Exactly,

the FW IA books also say the lists within are designed to be used with normal 40k and as such are completely legal.

FW=GW so it is the same as if GW said it was legal.

"Wanna play against my CSM?"
"Wanna play against me CSM with Blight Drones?"

You don't see a difference in those questions, or a potential difference in the answers?

Not the least of which is because if I shelled out the cash for an awsome FW model you could at least do me the courtesy of letting me use it in my games.

I don't mind FW models at all as a counts as for a normal codex unit.


The rulebook does say that

The army lists included in the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the precise characteristics and abilities of each troop type,
detail the maximum and minimum size of each unit and provide a points value for each model.

Are the IA8, etc. books Warhammer 40,000 Codex books?

FW has an Addendum to that in their IA book lists saying to include them in that.

Also, many of their units simply say "This unit is a heavy support/fast attack/elite/troops choice in Codex: *insert codex name here*"

This is how the Eldar Nightspinner was added in WD.

Grey Templar wrote:FW has an Addendum to that in their IA book lists saying to include them in that.

Also, many of their units simply say "This unit is a heavy support/fast attack/elite/troops choice in Codex: *insert codex name here*"

This is how the Eldar Nightspinner was added in WD.

Gentlemen, this is a thread for how imbalanced or balanced the FW units are. Please stay on topic and take the BS "Legal vs illegal" or "Permission required or not" arguement to one of the dozens of threads spawned on that topic every year.

Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ouze wrote:I don't own that book, so went by what was in the PDF. Thanks for the info because that changes my opinion a bit - the fact BA are specifically exempted from it makes it more reasonable.

Even with it also taking up a Fast Attack slot, having no weapons, and having no locator beacon, getting to assault with an iron-clad dreadnought on turn 1 is still pretty boss for 65 points. Just don't roll a 1 for your dangerous terrain check on the turn you assault.

Trickstick wrote:

Yes, but the Gorgon can carry a huge combined squad, which makes it better for the assault Guard playstyle. Also, no one seems to have mentioned the fact that all DKOK can exchange their lasgun for a laspistol/ccw for free. I would love to be able to do that, although in some ways I'm glad I can't as it would be a pain to model.

As far as overpowered DKOK goes, the Medusa Siege Gun needs a mention. It is probably one of the best ranged guns in the entire game. Same stats as the normal Medusa, just with a range of 24-120. Pretty evil.

Still, DKOK has so many weaknesses that it is fairly well balanced. It is good at what it should be, a straight up fight against an enemy in front of it. Once you start outflanking/deepstriking then it gets harder for them.

The Gorgon however can only be taken in Apoc, and the medusa siege gun is AV11 and any glancing/penetrating hit destroys it, but yeah, on the whole the DKoK list is rather tame.

rigeld2 wrote:
The rulebook does say that

The army lists included in the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the precise characteristics and abilities of each troop type,
detail the maximum and minimum size of each unit and provide a points value for each model.

One will notice that's merely in the introduction description, not in the actual *rules* section of the rulebook. It's not a rule.

Are the IA8, etc. books Warhammer 40,000 Codex books?

They contain army lists that are formatted and function identically to those found in a codex. Aside from being called "imperial armor" as opposed to "codex", there isn't much of a difference. Both are official GW produced army lists.

Yak9UT wrote:
People keep thinking FW units are Op but they just don't really understand/read the books or rules for the units.

This really seems to be more the issue than anything else.

I find most people that have a vehement thing against FW have one of three issues.

1: they've never actually looked at the stuff themselves and just take as gospel 2nd or 3rd hand say-so that it's all busted and broken or didn't read the rules correctly.

2: they gave it a go once and the person using FW stuff (often with proxies) played it completely wrong and ****stompped them, leaving a bad impression. (e.g. playing a titan in a 1500pt game or trying to play Thudd Guns as S7, etc)

3: They think it costs too much and if they can't afford it then others shouldn't be able to use it (nevermind that this applies to many armies and units in the normal GW range and that GW prices are fast converging on FW prices or already meeting/exceeding them).

Relatively little is going to vastly imbalance most 40k games. LR Achilles might, drop pod dreads very much can, maybe a couple other units, but really, not much more than the silly stuff that the codex's already have like Long Fangs, Purifiers, Vulkan, Vendettas, etc.

Shadow Specters are pretty unbalanced, but not in the way most things have gone in this thread. They're laughably overpriced for something that is essentially an eldar with a plasma pistol and jetpack.

I use Shaso R'alai (FW Tau HQ choice) in every game and nobody has a problem with it. I find a majority of the XV9 Tau suits very balanced. I carry a copy of the IA page (as well as the book itself) in case any of my opponents want to see his gear and abilities, but if they tell me I can't use him I find another player, as Grey Templar stated above (and as it says in the front of many IA books) FW is GW and legal in normal play.

I own many of the IA books and I don't think any of the units are "overpowered". They all have the strengths and weakness, just like any other "codex" model.

Vaktathi wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The rulebook does say that

The army lists included in the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the precise characteristics and abilities of each troop type,
detail the maximum and minimum size of each unit and provide a points value for each model.

One will notice that's merely in the introduction description, not in the actual *rules* section of the rulebook. It's not a rule.

I'm only going to post to address this statement since I don't own any of the IA books.

I'd like you to look on page 86 in the "Organizing a Battle" section, and notice that the words I quoted are the second sentence under "Agree Points Limit & Choose Forces". That's not in the introduction, it's in the actual rules section. It is a rule.

I love FW stuff. The models are beautifully designed and super fun. The Contemptor pattern dreadnoughts can be posed in any way you want. You could make one break-dancing. The books especially are great. The Badab war books are great and they have so much about the different chapters and battles that took place. Way better than the regular GW fluff in the codexes.

With that said, I find most FW stuff too expensive to use in mass unless you had a 2000+ point game. In a tournament setting, if GW allows FW stuff then I say let it play. Hate the game not the player. For casual play, who cares.

As for the most OP, I would say some of the SM HQ's in the Badab war books are pretty OP. In book 2 is a librarian which gives all infantry (except terminators and those in vehicles) infiltrate. Another one lets you upgrade one unit so their bolters, bolt pistols, and storm bolters fire hellfire rounds.

rigeld2 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The rulebook does say that

The army lists included in the Warhammer 40,000 Codex books specify the precise characteristics and abilities of each troop type,
detail the maximum and minimum size of each unit and provide a points value for each model.

One will notice that's merely in the introduction description, not in the actual *rules* section of the rulebook. It's not a rule.

I'm only going to post to address this statement since I don't own any of the IA books.

I'd like you to look on page 86 in the "Organizing a Battle" section, and notice that the words I quoted are the second sentence under "Agree Points Limit & Choose Forces". That's not in the introduction, it's in the actual rules section. It is a rule.

So it is included there as well, good catch. However, it still doesn't specify that those are the only valid books for normal play, only that the army lists which are included in Codex books contain the descriptions and required characteristics and costs required to use them in battles, not that other army lists in non-codex book aren't allowed.

It's simply saying "there are army lists in the codex books that have X,Y,Z needed to play", not "these books are the legal army options".

In the Rapier Laser Destroyer's defence, it cost, in Second Edition (the last time it was readily available), a mere 45 points, despite having a range of 72" and an AP of D6+2D10+9.

To put those figures in perspective, a Tactical Space Marine at the time cost 30 points, and a Land Raider's best AV was 22, which, by my crude maths, the Rapier would have penetrated more than half the time.

Compared with that, even at its original, experimental cost, Forge World's version of the rules is quite reasonable.

Vaktathi wrote:However, it still doesn't specify that those are the only valid books for normal play, only that the army lists which are included in Codex books contain the descriptions and required characteristics and costs required to use them in battles, not that other army lists in non-codex book aren't allowed.

It's simply saying "there are army lists in the codex books that have X,Y,Z needed to play", not "these books are the legal army options".

Permissive rule set - if it doesn't say it's allowed, it isn't.

shamroll wrote:As for the most OP, I would say some of the SM HQ's in the Badab war books are pretty OP. In book 2 is a librarian which gives all infantry (except terminators and those in vehicles) infiltrate. Another one lets you upgrade one unit so their bolters, bolt pistols, and storm bolters fire hellfire rounds.

Ahazra Redth. The Mantis Warriors Librarian. I can firmly say, as someone who has been a part of a Badab campaign, using Ahazra Redth as my HQ... It's not OP. It's good, for sure. But you have try very hard to make a list work with Infiltrate. It definitely approaches the game differently. But OP? No way. Space Wolves are more OP than giving my guys infiltrate. It just requires the opponent to think outside the box and come up with creative solutions to your problems. And most of the time, this can be done without changing your list.

I feel the Badab characters should be legal, as they're intended to be used to add flare to the C:SM book. They're different, but not necessarily better, and they make for interesting lists.

The biggest issue with this thread is the people complaining about "OP" units have never played with or against them, or have used the wrong rules with them. Grab a book (which are available in easy to find digital forms), play some games, and make a list that nobody can beat. I would be impressed if they were any more oppressive than GK or SW. It's just... being forced to think differently. And people don't like thinking.

rigeld2 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:However, it still doesn't specify that those are the only valid books for normal play, only that the army lists which are included in Codex books contain the descriptions and required characteristics and costs required to use them in battles, not that other army lists in non-codex book aren't allowed.

It's simply saying "there are army lists in the codex books that have X,Y,Z needed to play", not "these books are the legal army options".

Permissive rule set - if it doesn't say it's allowed, it isn't.

I'll have to get you the line from the front of the IA books that states they are to be used as if part of the armies codices (or somthing along those lines). Don't have em in front of me atm, at work and all that.

Honestly, a lot of perceived OP FW units are just seen that way because its new and scary. If some of the more normal units or lists were commonplace, most of us would adapt and overcome. People in this thread keep pointing out how awesome a certain unit is, and how OP it is, but quickly glaze over the downsides of it. Medusa siege gun? It dies to a stiff breeze. Rapier lasier destroyer? Same thing. Blight drones? A good unit, but far from unkillable, not to mention the overall quality and competitiveness of the C:CSM book.

Are the units bad? Hell no, they're quite good. Are they OP? I'm of the opinion that the majority of FW stuff is quite balanced. Don't forget all the terrible units FW puts out that are completely forgotten about and ignored in favour of pointing out the OP ones. Most of the units are no more OP than a lot of other units in current codices. Blood Talon and Psychic flying dreads, thunderwolf cavalry, paladins, manticores, TH/SS termies, Long Fans, the list goes on.

Frankly, if FW was more prevalent, the game would have even more variety, and variety is never a bad thing.

Ailaros wrote:No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

A Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons, or a Death Company Dreadnought with Blood Talons could beat that unit. and at 125 points for either of the Dreads.

A Unit of Purifiers could beat that unit as well if they got the charge.

latrodectus wrote:Another one lets you upgrade one unit so their bolters, bolt pistols, and storm bolters fire hellfire rounds.

He's essentially a Master of the forge with a 5+ inv. save and one unit upgrade. Considering he's got (in my opinion) pretty uninspiring wargear choices (no means of doing much other than standing around while shooting, but given magic power jumpropes for all of that melee he's fighting in)), I'd say that, if you're willing to take a lackluster special character for a nice rule, more power to you.

There are far better choices to call OP from those books, though.

It's refreshing for someone calling FW stuff overpowered to have at least read something by FW, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Ailaros wrote:No unit, and I mean no unit (not even paladins or purifiers) can beat this unit, and certainly as hell not for its points. Especially when you throw in straken or a priest, and suddenly you're getting furious charge and preferred emeny. Say hello to 36 rerollable S7 power fist attacks...

A Furioso Dreadnought with Blood Talons, or a Death Company Dreadnought with Blood Talons could beat that unit. and at 125 points for either of the Dreads.

A Unit of Purifiers could beat that unit as well if they got the charge.

Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it, because it should never be on the table, going back to the part where it's illegal.

rigeld2 wrote:
Permissive rule set - if it doesn't say it's allowed, it isn't.

It has nothing to do with being permissive or not, it's not saying that the codex's are *the* source for unit rules, only that yes, they have rules.

Notice that it's talking about rules needed to play with models. Page 3 talks about the game being played with Citadel Miniatures (thereafter referred to as "models"). page 86 says the *army lists* in the codex books have rules to play with those models. Those army lists do not cover all Citadel models designed and produced for Warhammer 40,000 play by Games Workshop within the scope of the rules presented by the rulebook. By your reading, an Eldar Night Spinner would be a permission only unit since it is not actually in a codex, and there is no codex entry for "Cadian Shock Troops" or the like.

I always think this excerpt is helpful:


GW owns the game. They have not said that only units in the Codex are allowed, and as has been brought up, have specifically made units in other publications allowed in the game. RAW, FW units are allowed in regular games. They advise you to let you opponent know and make sure it is ok with them, because it may be unexpected, and it is good manners, but that is always the case in a wargame. They don't say indicate permission is needed to make them 'legal', just that it is polite, and good sportsmanship.

So lets drop the RAW discussion and get back topic. GW says it's allowed. That is their interpretation of the rules, and they are the ultimate authority on rules interpretations (see errata, WD, etc.) There is no point on arguing whether or not FW units are allowed according to the rules, because GW says they are.

Whether you will play against them is another matter entirely. But, again, that is true of ANY unit. I've seen plenty of people who refuse to play against Necrons, GK, BA, and any number of other 'legal' armies. That is always their prerogative. But the rules themselves are clear.

spiralingcadaver wrote:Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it,.

He said no unit CAN beat it.

I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

DeathReaper wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it,.

He said no unit CAN beat it.

I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

Also, for the same cost you can get 90 Ork Boyz with Nobs and Power Klaws with Ghaz guaranteeing you the charge. That will also own those guardsmen pretty hard.

DeathReaper wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it,.

He said no unit CAN beat it.

I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

Did you read the part of the sentence you deleted? Because that was the part that I'd argue matters.

So, there's this unit I just made up that doesn't exist anywhere: Terminator Devastators. They're all armed with assault cannons on their heads and stormshields on their lightning claws (which makes their storm shields twin-linked, and rubbing them together makes a static charge that counts as a heavy flamer or a jump pack) and they cost 10 points each.

I could argue that they're unbeatable, and you can argue that you could kill them with a titan, but it doesn't matter because they don't exist.

See how that works?

Poor Ouze. He just wanted a thread that could address the most OP units from FW, so that these arguments could be put in a bit more context.

But, we devolved into this nonsense almost immediately.

For Eldar, the Hornet is pretty OP. It's basically a Vyper with free upgrades like dropping Open Topped, getting an extra weapon, and more armor.

The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

The Warp Hunter is pretty balanced. I'd actually prefer a Fire Prism over it, but I wouldn't mock anyone that disagreed.

Shadow Specters are absolutely terrible. They're basically unplayable in their current form.

Grakmar wrote:
The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

But the number of Wasp Assault Walker Squadrons in an army is limited by the amount of Corsair Squads you have in the army--meaning you're effectively using 2 Troop slots for 1 War Walker Squadron.

Kanluwen wrote:

Grakmar wrote:
The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

But the number of Wasp Assault Walker Squadrons in an army is limited by the amount of Corsair Squads you have in the army--meaning you're effectively using 2 Troop slots for 1 War Walker Squadron.

Ah, I wasn't aware of this change. I'm only familiar with the old experimental rules.

Grakmar wrote:Poor Ouze. He just wanted a thread that could address the most OP units from FW, so that these arguments could be put in a bit more context.

But, we devolved into this nonsense almost immediately.

For Eldar, the Hornet is pretty OP. It's basically a Vyper with free upgrades like dropping Open Topped, getting an extra weapon, and more armor.

The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

The Warp Hunter is pretty balanced. I'd actually prefer a Fire Prism over it, but I wouldn't mock anyone that disagreed.

Shadow Specters are absolutely terrible. They're basically unplayable in their current form.

Also, Shadow Spectres have 18" range as of IA11 and a "frag missile" secondary firing mode. They did lose AP2 though.

Grakmar wrote:
For Eldar, the Hornet is pretty OP. It's basically a Vyper with free upgrades like dropping Open Topped, getting an extra weapon, and more armor.

That implies a Vyper is appropriately costed, which it laughably is not.

Grakmar wrote:
The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

Who cares, it can't score.

acekevin8412 wrote:
Also, Shadow Spectres have 18" range as of IA11 and a "frag missile" secondary firing mode.

One "frag missile" for the whole unit, not per guy.

Grakmar wrote:Ah, I wasn't aware of this change. I'm only familiar with the old experimental rules.

See, this is another problem. It's not a problem in that Forgeworld release experimental rules - this is a good thing, since they do take feedback on the unit and make changes for the official entry in a book. But that people base their opinions directly off the experimental rules, not knowing they changed in the book. take the example of the Achilles. It was completely ridiculous when they released experimental rules. The rules in the book are a lot more manageable. They still pose a problem to some armies like bugs, but it's nowhere near as dead hard as its experimental rules were, and a lot of opinions on the Achilles come directly from the experimental rules, particularly parts of the rules that were removed for the official entry.

Is the Caetus Assault Ram the same?

Deadshot wrote:Is the Caetus Assault Ram the same?

I believe it got a notable cost increase, but stayed about the same, otherwise.

How much.of an increase. Just a rough estimate like +35 or something.

Deadshot wrote:How much.of an increase. Just a rough estimate like +35 or something.

From its original experimental rules, it went up in cost equal to about that of a Rhino with Extra Armour.

Good, decent price then. I might get one once I get a job next year. I would get one.now but I would need to be 16 and I am 15 in 6 days.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Poor Ouze. He just wanted a thread that could address the most OP units from FW, so that these arguments could be put in a bit more context.

But, we devolved into this nonsense almost immediately.

For Eldar, the Hornet is pretty OP. It's basically a Vyper with free upgrades like dropping Open Topped, getting an extra weapon, and more armor.

The Wasp is also fairly ridiculous. It's basically just a War Walker, but it's a Troops choice, freeing up the overcrowded HS slots.

The Warp Hunter is pretty balanced. I'd actually prefer a Fire Prism over it, but I wouldn't mock anyone that disagreed.

Shadow Specters are absolutely terrible. They're basically unplayable in their current form.

Also, Shadow Spectres have 18" range as of IA11 and a "frag missile" secondary firing mode. They did lose AP2 though.

I also think they were Heavy Support in the experimental rules, but are now Fast attack as well.

I don't think the Shadow Spectres are TOO bad. I like a lot of the other stuff better. I think the Nightspinner was moved to FA as well, in IA11 for the Corsairs list at least.

I think the blight drone sounds interesting. Maybe they'll put something like it in the next CSM book?

For the record, Shadow Spectres' prism rifle got a second firing profile:
the original focused one, and a "dispersed" one ie the frag missile. So a unit can have 3 for 105pts moving and shooting at 18".

That still doesn't make them overpowered. It just makes gives them essentially a SM missile launcher that can move and shoot, but loses what, two thirds of its range? Fair trade off. And definitely a unit I want to play against. More aspect types when fighting against Eldar is always fun.

I'm reading the krieg "codex" thing right now here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/k/kreig.pdf and to be honest I'd have to say that it feels fairly balanced to me. They're brutal when they can make it straight at you and smash your face in, but they're really lacking in speed, and if you could outrun them or outflank/deepstrike and take out their heavy artillery, you would really wreck their army. Notice that they have no Vendetta's/valks, sentinels, or chimeras. Their only dedicated non-apoc transport is an open topped AV-11 tractor thing that looks like it would die in a stiff breeze. They also have no access to plasma (which is wierd, you would think they'd love a weapon that packs punch and has the possibility to fry their own guys)

That said, I would love to use this list in normal games, as I love using powerblobs and this army is made from the ground up with them in mind. I would love to see my opponent's face when I tell him I've got a 66man powerblob packing powerfists and melta bombs. That said, having no really mobile attack options would suck, but that's what you get, strengths and weaknesses. Get a boost in one area and you're going to take a hit in another. Not to mention that almost all of their units are more expensive than regular guardsmen, and that hurts more as well. To really buff them to their most diabolical potential, they'd be taking up roughly half your points in a single infantry platoon, which can only fire at 1 target per turn...

One thing I'm wondering if people realize is that FW units are not made to hard counter regular GW units, they're made to also counter the OTHER FW units. So for example, that achilies LR thing, it could easily get smashed by some other FW units that you see running around. I highly doubt there's some evil mastermind at FW going "yes, yes... the achilles must be more powerful! We must punish all who would dare not to buy FW!!" But that's my 2 cents on the whole thing.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it,.

He said no unit CAN beat it.

I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

Did you read the part of the sentence you deleted? Because that was the part that I'd argue matters.

So, there's this unit I just made up that doesn't exist anywhere: Terminator Devastators. They're all armed with assault cannons on their heads and stormshields on their lightning claws (which makes their storm shields twin-linked, and rubbing them together makes a static charge that counts as a heavy flamer or a jump pack) and they cost 10 points each.

I could argue that they're unbeatable, and you can argue that you could kill them with a titan, but it doesn't matter because they don't exist.

See how that works?

It does not matter that it is an illegal unit. We are talking forge world here.

The fact still remains that I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

and Snarky gave another example of a unit that could beat it even if it was a unit that does not exist. I was just countering Ailaros claim.

and I could beat your Illegal terminators with some real units as well Say 10 Blood Angel Vanguard Vets with Jump packs, Lightning claws, and Storm Shields, See how that works?

DarknessEternal wrote:Shadow Specters are pretty unbalanced, but not in the way most things have gone in this thread. They're laughably overpriced for something that is essentially an eldar with a plasma pistol and jetpack.

How much are they, pointswise? I know we can't break down game mechanics ("x upgrade costs x points" is forbidden) but I'm pretty sure generalities are OK - ("this unit as typically equipped is about 270 points")?

Ouze wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Shadow Specters are pretty unbalanced, but not in the way most things have gone in this thread. They're laughably overpriced for something that is essentially an eldar with a plasma pistol and jetpack.

How much are they, pointswise? I know we can't break down game mechanics ("x upgrade costs x points" is forbidden) but I'm pretty sure generalities are OK - ("this unit as typically equipped is about 270 points")?

Base Necron lord cost.

I don't think they are that bad, honestly.

Yeah, but its still pretty expensive for what you get.

it is an improvement to the Eldar codex for sure.

-Loki- wrote:That still doesn't make them overpowered. It just makes gives them essentially a SM missile launcher that can move and shoot, but loses what, two thirds of its range? Fair trade off. And definitely a unit I want to play against. More aspect types when fighting against Eldar is always fun.

3/8ths the range actually.

And no one said they were overpowered, we said they are the opposite. Underpowered is still unbalanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, but its still pretty expensive for what you get.

it is an improvement to the Eldar codex for sure.

Yes, even Forge World knows how to apply the Eldar tax: make everything 25% more expensive than what it's worth.

As a side note, I am not into anything Eldar as I dislike their aesthetic, but that FW Hornet absolutely kills me. It's so well done.

DeathReaper wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

spiralingcadaver wrote:Actually, I'd argue that he's correct: no unit should be able to beat it,.

He said no unit CAN beat it.

I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

Did you read the part of the sentence you deleted? Because that was the part that I'd argue matters.

So, there's this unit I just made up that doesn't exist anywhere: Terminator Devastators. They're all armed with assault cannons on their heads and stormshields on their lightning claws (which makes their storm shields twin-linked, and rubbing them together makes a static charge that counts as a heavy flamer or a jump pack) and they cost 10 points each.

I could argue that they're unbeatable, and you can argue that you could kill them with a titan, but it doesn't matter because they don't exist.

See how that works?

It does not matter that it is an illegal unit. We are talking forge world here.

The fact still remains that I gave two examples of units that could beat it.

and Snarky gave another example of a unit that could beat it even if it was a unit that does not exist. I was just countering Ailaros claim.

and I could beat your Illegal terminators with some real units as well Say 10 Blood Angel Vanguard Vets with Jump packs, Lightning claws, and Storm Shields, See how that works?

Gold star for reading comprehension!

Lord High Commander Carab Culln:

Combat Tactics is changed to Every Sargent in the army is replaced by an Apothecary.

So basically he grants Feel No Pain everywhere, With an additional combat +1 resolution to his red scorpions in a 12" bubble, and gains attacks like Lelith against lower WS

May not be perfect, but damn does it add some high survivability for no extra cost.

The lucius drop pod is hardly broken anymore. 65pts, dangerous terrain test, takes a fast slot.

Yes, it hurts when it works, but so does melta-units in pods too.

It is just as easy to stop the lucius dread from doing lots of damage as those combi-melta sternguards in a pod. The dread is less useful against tanks, but more useful against infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Lord High Commander Carab Culln:

Combat Tactics is changed to Every Sargent in the army is replaced by an Apothecary.

So basically he grants Feel No Pain everywhere, With an additional combat +1 resolution to his red scorpions in a 12" bubble, and gains attacks like Lelith against lower WS

May not be perfect, but damn does it add some high survivability for no extra cost.

What does he cost? What wargear does he have? Can the apotecaries take any wargear? The combat res is totally useless. Not familiar with the Lelith power.

Above 200,
WS6/BS5/S4/T4/W3/I5/A4/LD10/SV2+

Wargear: Terminator armor, teleport homer, Iron Halo, MC SB, The blade of the scorpion

Special Rules: ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics, IC, Orbital Bombardment, Proud to Live, Proud to Die, Hard to kill

Chapter Tactics: Veteran Sergeants in Tactical Squads may be replaced if you wish.

Standard Apothecaries Wargear (Whatever they can take, they can be equipped with)

Proud to Live, Proud to Die, Hard to kill: Eternal Warrior, 12" Add +1 to Combat resolution.

Blade of the Scorpion: MC Relic Blade, if Weapon Skill is greater than your enemy, gain Attacks for how much you are above it. (If fighting something with WS3,he would gain +3 attacks)


I'll be honest, I didn't read it that well and thought it said all Veteran Sergeants could be replaced, not just Tactical squads, which would give nearly all troops FNP.

Yeah... that is a pretty bad character

Blight drones are ridonc a donc

OK, what's the deal with Blight Drones? They've been mentioned several times. Remember, don't get into specifics on the point values.

They are land speeders with battle cannons and better armor.

IIRC they cost about what devil-dogs do.

Ouze wrote:OK, what's the deal with Blight Drones? They've been mentioned several times. Remember, don't get into specifics on the point values.

Essentially it's a flying soul grinder that has the "Phlegm" upgrade but can't actually fight in close combat. It also always explodes. It's also 12/11/10, so they're pretty nasty but manageable.

DarknessEternal wrote:They are land speeders with battle cannons and better armor.

Yep, way over the top.

With armor that low I would be surprised to see them survive much past 2nd turn against just about anything except Nids(and even then Impaler cannons will take them down eventually)

They would go down faster then a cheap date on skid row

The Blight drone is pretty exspensive point wise, I could get a Vendetta for just 5pts more and be ablee to tear blight drones apart.

Also if in a CSM army you must have a plague marine squad in your Army to be allowed to field blight drones

Vendettas are rather underpriced

Yak9UT wrote:
Also if in a CSM army you must have a plague marine squad in your Army to be allowed to field blight drones

You say that like its a bad thing

I don't see a problem with the Land Raider Achilles. It is over 300 pts. That's right, over 300 points. For one tank. (And I still dont get why BA cant take them, I LOVE the unit).

As far as being OP/Under-costed goes, I haven't seen anything in Imperial Armour Apoc 2nd that concerns me more than things in certain GK or IG books. TO be fair, I just got the book today, but I don't see anything too bad.

Grey Templar wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:
Also if in a CSM army you must have a plague marine squad in your Army to be allowed to field blight drones

You say that like its a bad thing

Well yes Plague Marines are good but not cheap, and it means you can't just field Blight Drones on thier own.

Happygrunt wrote:I don't see a problem with the Land Raider Achilles. It is over 300 pts. That's right, over 300 points. For one tank. (And I still dont get why BA cant take them, I LOVE the unit).

The problem is some armies have such a difficult time with it that the points cost becomes irrelevant. It really should have been confined to Apocalypse like that Terminus pattern Land Raider covered in Lascannons.

Blight Drones+Epidimeus=win

I don't have any issues with FW in friendly games, and I honestly would have no issues with it in tournaments if there was at least a hint of parity for the variety of units available for all the armies...not to mention that trying to keep up to date on what your opponent can bring to the table means buying another bunch of books that are even more expensive than the standard dexes.

There really is not much that is overpowered in the FW line up, everything I can think of off the top of my head has been covered already. In fact there is a ton of stuff that is just absolute junk. I think with a little work on toning down the OP stuff and using the next couple books to bring the rest of the races up to speed, I would be open to seeing them as standard fare.

Yak9UT wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Yak9UT wrote:
Also if in a CSM army you must have a plague marine squad in your Army to be allowed to field blight drones

You say that like its a bad thing

Well yes Plague Marines are good but not cheap, and it means you can't just field Blight Drones on thier own.

Don't forget, Blight Drones are huge, it's almost as large as a soul grinder and more difficult to hide due to the turbofans attached to the side of the model.

Also the Achilles is a pretty poor performer for it's points. Sure you can't kill it, but I've rarely seen the Achilles do 300+ points worth of damage to an enemy army.

Thunderfire Cannon and twin TL MMs can't kill 300pts+? Are you stoned? I kid, but I can't see a reason to why it doesn't

The MM assumes there are expensive vehicles to kill. Not always the case.

The TFC is more of a tactical weapon then a weapon of destruction. It isn't going to kill loads of anything besides Boyz or Gaunts(and that won't get its points back)


Its real strength is putting a scoring unit in it and sitting on an objective. A garunteed holding unit is pretty nice.

Deadshot wrote:Thunderfire Cannon and twin TL MMs can't kill 300pts+? Are you stoned? I kid, but I can't see a reason to why it doesn't

Well unless if you enjoy driving Leman Russes to within 12" of the Achilles, then sure, you can let it kill 300+ points of your tanks/heavy hitters. Most of the time however, I keep my tanks out of range of the multimeltas and the Thunderfire cannon rarely kills 300+ points of guardsmen.

Snarky wrote:
Also the Achilles is a pretty poor performer for it's points. Sure you can't kill it, but I've rarely seen the Achilles do 300+ points worth of damage to an enemy army.

It doesn't need to, it's great value is that it can basically park itself somewhere and deny an area to an opponent with two TL'd MM's and a thunderfire cannon, or hold an objective with utter certainty. VP's aren't part of the game anymore, and even if they were it'd be great VP denial to most opponents.

most OP Unit blight drones but they are killable

As too anyone who has trouble with an achillies all you need to do is take out the thunderfire cannon and then stay 24" away and blow it to heck.

Achillies are probably best just ignored. A single TFC is annoying, but hardly enough to be worthy of the effort of ripping it off.

I would just ignore it, accept the objective it is sitting on as lost and just eat its fire and go for the other objectives. Maybe zip a squad over on the last turn to contest.


Blight Drones are the perfect mixture of being a threat, yet at the same time being fairly vulnerable.

Personally I love Forge Worlds units. It helps break the cookie-cutter type of play that 40K is/has become.

The problem with the people that dislike Forge World is that:
- They base their arguments on experimental rules instead of the final ones.

- Speak of putting Apocalypse units such as Titans in a regular game.

- Speak from a metagame/mathhammer point of view rather than experience.

Is the Achilles tough? Of course it is. It's 300 pts.
In return...I will put together a 300 point unit that will c²²²slap that thing off the board before moving on.

But without list tailoring there are plenty of things that can still hurt it.
- Lascannons
- Chain Fists
- Thunder hammers
-Melta Bombs (Yes it's immuned to Melta but if you read closely melta bombs do NOT have the melta RULE so they work).
- DCCW
- Haywire grenades
- Railguns
- D-Cannons
- Warp Hunters
- Prism Tanks
- Prism weaponry (Shadow Specters)
- Monstrous Creatures

And that's just those I came up in less than a minute. Think outside the box a bit and drop the melta-fetish metagame for a sec. There is OTHER stuff out there.

If an item is not labeled Apocalypse or Super-Heavy I have no problem playing against it. It should be fun and different.

Another problem is that I think some players do not like their tournament comfort zone disturbed. I think it shows a lack of capability to adapt and how much cookie-cutter the game has become.

Ascalam wrote:Vendettas are rather underpriced

If they were more expensive, there would be no point in fielding Elysians.

I don't understand the knee-jerk hatred of the Achilles. Sure, it's fairly difficult to kill, but for 300+ points (it's more than 300 base cost), that's about all you get.

It's got a 25 point gun (thunderfire cannon cost) that rarely gets used, so people can't actually think it's that awesome. It is not an assault vehicle, and it can't hold terminators, so not a great use as a transport.

So all it can do is contest objectives. Hot dog. For 300+ points, so can a lot of other things.

It's also got two Twin Linked BS4 Multi-meltas and PotMS, and the TFC has some killer range on it.

It's 325pts of area denial, that's twice as hard to kill against most weapons that can penetrate AV14 (due to the -1 for all penetrating damage results), and can still hold a scoring unit while packing some fearsome firepower that's difficult to neutralize. Stick one on a flank and you own it, sit it on an objective with a minimum sized scoring unit and many lists won't be able to push it off.

Not as bad as its original rules, it's fieldable now somewhat, but it's one of FW's few units that I feel reflect poor game design choices.

It's a unit that's difficult to cost correctly as it's still just a normal vehicle and not a superheavy, but many armies and lists will have an easier time engaging a Baneblade than a Land Raider Achilles.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Vendettas are rather underpriced

If they were more expensive, there would be no point in fielding Elysians.

They are still undercosted, and there is no point in fielding Elysians (ducks )


I'm cool with Elysians actually, though i prefer the Tallarns I just couldn't pass up a straight line like that