So after seeing the third or fourth "Why does everyone hate Ultramarines?" or "This is Why We Hate Ultramarines!" thread, I thought I would take up a little poll to see how many people actually do hate the Ultramarines. Now, this isn't a matter of wondering WHY people hate or don't hate the Ultramarines. The question is, how badly do you hate Ultramarines, based on the totality of their rules, their background, and the people that play them? Note that the question is not in regards to Space Marines in general, but to Ultramarines in specific.

I don't hate Ultrasmurfs, I just hate some of the D-bags that happen to be Ultrasmurfs. its purely coencidence that there are alot of Smurf D-bags.

I dont hate the Ultramarines, infact I actually like them. I just hate the way Matt Ward writes about them

I like all Ultramarines except Sicarius. Seriously, that man is a douchebag.

Im liking the way this poll is turning out so far....

We will see what happens but it's feeling like one of those "vocal minority" situations.

The Objective Tau Hatred thread sure was, Tuttle. I voted for 'Ambivalent,' by the way. While I love the look of the Ultramarines, and enjoy them in game terms, I find them somewhat lacking in fluff. They are better as a force of nature rather than as characters. I prefer to see them less as 'people,' and more as 'something that happens to people.' The Codex of a previous edition (3rd?) gave at the the end the schedule of an Ultramarine's day, which included 15 minutes for personal thought. That pretty much sums it up right there.

Would I want to live on a world in the Ultramarine empire? Oh yes. In point of fact, if I had to live in 40k, that's where I'd like to go, please. Would I want to be an Ultramarine? Not on your life.

I'm the same as coolyo, ultramarines are fine with me except for sicarius, the guy's good at what he does and that's being a superb commander and all around douchebag...

Galdos wrote:I dont hate the Ultramarines, infact I actually like them. I just hate the way Matt Ward writes about them

This men knows how I feel.

I don't hate ultramarines, some of my best friends are ultramarines!

Well, 'ere we go then. I hate Ultramarines. First one to actually own up to this. But hear me out before saying "haters gonna hate"

I think they are vastly overrated in the vast majority of their fluff. Roboute Guilliman and his codex astartes was fine I suppose, being back in the HH days, but now?
Lets not talk about how they're obviously the best at everything that any marine ever did now. Calgar holding an Ork horde for en entire day and night by himself? Let's playtest that now shall we?

I also think its ridiculous how Ultramarines almost always come out victorious because they're the literal poster boys of GW advertising (Orks come close second I think). And of course there's the classic Ultramarine player who believes wholeheartedly that his army is the best army, and that any other marine army is only good if its being changed to ultramarines.

Maybe if the fluff was toned down a bit, then I'd be fine with them.

Jimsolo wrote:So after seeing the third or fourth "Why does everyone hate Ultramarines?" or "This is Why We Hate Ultramarines!" thread, I thought I would ... make another one

I've gotta say that they're my favourite army, I started with them ten years ago, changed army a few times, but I always go back to them. Started up after a few years hiatus and I'm back in blue. The fluff is great, the characters are great, the colours are great and the UM models are just amazing.

I don't like then. They tried to Screw with too many things after the Heresy.

I play against a guy who regularly goes super fluff happy with his 2nd company army. It's cute at first but over time all that blue just makes you want to go strangle a puppy.

As much as they are the GW posterboys, they are not the fluff posterboys. They get as much fluff as the other "main" SM chapters.

DoctorZombie wrote:As much as they are the GW posterboys, they are not the fluff posterboys. They get as much fluff as the other "main" SM chapters.

I don't know about that. The only other chapters that get as much fluff are the chapters that deviate from the Codex Astartes, like the Space Wolves and Blood Angels. Among Codex Chapters, the Ultramarines are the ultimate exemplars of all that is Space Marine and superawesomebadass.

For the record, I love the Ultramarines to death. They were my first army, and I originally painted them as Ultramarines because that was what they had on the box (I was in 5th grade). Since then, they've grown on me quite a bit fluff-wise, and I keep coming back to them.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:So after seeing the third or fourth "Why does everyone hate Ultramarines?" or "This is Why We Hate Ultramarines!" thread, I thought I would ... make another one

Actually, I didn't ask why people felt anything. All I did was post a poll, which the majority of people have answered without posting anything. Like in the Tau thread before it, I'm not interested in why those who hate or don't hate Ultramarines feel the way they do, I'm interested solely in the numbers. Specifically, I want to know if people actually despise the Ultramarines as much as the internet would have you believe.

I like Ultramarines. I don't think that I would actually ever play them, but I like their place in the universe.

So far it is a nice bell curve. Interesting

Yeah it is! It's a lot more even than the Tau thread was. The validity of these polls isn't perfect, but it's still better than nothing. When someone complains about something, I like having an objective measuring stick to determine whether or not they are in the "wronged and outspoken victim" category, the "has a valid point" category, or the "vocal minority trying to shout loud enough to be seen as the majority" category. I'm not throwing judgements on other peoples' opinions (at least not yet!) but its interesting to see the results.

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Lord Rogukiel wrote:And of course there's the classic Ultramarine player who believes wholeheartedly that his army is the best army, and that any other marine army is only good if its being changed to ultramarines.

Maybe if the fluff was toned down a bit, then I'd be fine with them.

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I have one of those in my local GW. He is my friend. Decent painter. Freaks out at the "scary" things like Dreadknights and Hive Tyrants and Titans and must kill them at all costs. The squadron of Bandblades or carnifexes or Broadsides are nothing.

He insists that Smurfs "are the best thing since sliced bread." Even when I take 265 points worth of Termagants and defeat Calgar, Calgar "had the flu."



Burn the boys in blue is my new favourite slogan.

I like them due to their Greco-Roman nature, and their high level of organization. My dislike of them stems largely from how the fluff for them was written by our spiritual liege, Mat Ward. While I think that a slight deviation from the codex isn't really a punishable offense...eh...its just rather silly, I've never been a huge fan of binding, seemingly pointless rules.

As Warsmith Honsu in the Ultramarines Omnibus once said
"An Ultramarine! In the Eye of Terror!? What did YOU do? Turn the wrong way on the drillfield?"

DoctorZombie wrote:As much as they are the GW posterboys, they are not the fluff posterboys. They get as much fluff as the other "main" SM chapters.

Really, go look at Codex:SM, the Iron Hands only get 1 or 2 small paragraphs and no SC: the Crimson Fists get more never mind the 85% of the fluff and models featured which are ultramarines.

I don't hate the ultraboys, I just can't stand the 2nd Company and Papa smurf and their post-heresy actions.

I dont have problems with the Ultramarines.
Only with Calgar.

There is no way to objectively hate the Ultramarines because all Ultramarines hate is based on the absolute dumbest reasons possible, and much of them rooted in misinformation or gross misinterpretation.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There is no way to objectively hate the Ultramarines because all Ultramarines hate is based on the absolute dumbest reasons possible, and much of them rooted in misinformation or gross misinterpretation.

And is this comment supposed to be objective? All the people who dislike ultramarines have given valid, proper reasons. I'm actually happily surprised that everyone's getting along despite different opinions. Don't ruin it by starting to insult people.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:

DoctorZombie wrote:As much as they are the GW posterboys, they are not the fluff posterboys. They get as much fluff as the other "main" SM chapters.

Really, go look at Codex:SM, the Iron Hands only get 1 or 2 small paragraphs and no SC: the Crimson Fists get more never mind the 85% of the fluff and models featured which are ultramarines.

I don't hate the ultraboys, I just can't stand the 2nd Company and Papa smurf and their post-heresy actions.

Look at the BL novels. The codexes are a small part of the whole 40k fluff.

I have no problem with them. For every annoying bit of Mat Ward fluff, there's an interesting and different take on them. I'm thinking of THQ's idea there, and that to me is what they'd probably be like.
I understand why people might dislike them, but a lot of the hate they get feels undeserved or, in some cases, a clear example of bandwagoning.
Overall, neutral to them.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There is no way to objectively hate the Ultramarines because all Ultramarines hate is based on the absolute dumbest reasons possible, and much of them rooted in misinformation or gross misinterpretation.

And is this comment supposed to be objective? All the people who dislike ultramarines have given valid, proper reasons.

No, no they haven't. They give the same reasons every time. And every time, they're still for absolutely idiotic reasons, mostly rooted in misinformation or misinterpretation.

Your post above being a classic example of this. You know, because Calgar is the only Special Character with an absurdly over the top series of background stories. Or that they "almost always come out victorious" (oh wait, they don't, and wait, the Space Marines are the protagonists of the setting and typically win no matter what chapter). And then, lastly, hating them because of some fictional gamer type nobody has ever met, and sounds like an invented cardstock person. So yeah, I'm spot on.

I dislike them, don't hate, just dislike. It's not even their fault really, I just feel to much attention is given to them, instead of to a variety of marine chapters that are all radically different, or to even a variety of species and factions. The recent White Dwarf model and 25th anniversary model were quite nice though, Blood Angels and Crimson Fists taking in some sun

Crimson Fists get a lot of face time in 40k, along with some of the other founding Chapters. There is a huge discrepancy in the amount of attention that some Chapters receive, and while you'd expect the founding Chapters to all get at least a modicum of that attention, it just isn't so. *CoughcoughIronHandscoughcough* While I understand that the Chapters that Forgeworld and Games Workshop are going to support are pretty established, I think it can kind of wear on those who do not play a Chapter that gets all the love. I am lucky to have a Special Character and some decals. I'm not lucky enough to have gotten Chapter symbols for my drop pods. It's all a balancing act, and I'm not going to blame people for being disgruntled with the 'favorite sons' of the company.

Big fan of the Ultramarines, they were my army of choice when I started building a few months ago. I'll admit it right now its entirely because of the videogame Space Marine, I'm sure lots of people have said this but I suspect I'm in the minority of people that actually has the time and money to throw away to actually make something of worth. That said, I've not read much in the way of the books other than committing my codex to memory.

But yea, its the Ferrari effect for me... you don't paint a Ferrari any color other than red and you don't paint space marines purple, the Italian sports car is just kind of suppose to be red and the space marines just don't look right in colors other than blue. Something about it just doesn't feel right.

Jimsolo wrote:Crimson Fists get a lot of face time in 40k, along with some of the other founding Chapters. There is a huge discrepancy in the amount of attention that some Chapters receive, and while you'd expect the founding Chapters to all get at least a modicum of that attention, it just isn't so. *CoughcoughIronHandscoughcough* While I understand that the Chapters that Forgeworld and Games Workshop are going to support are pretty established, I think it can kind of wear on those who do not play a Chapter that gets all the love. I am lucky to have a Special Character and some decals. I'm not lucky enough to have gotten Chapter symbols for my drop pods. It's all a balancing act, and I'm not going to blame people for being disgruntled with the 'favorite sons' of the company.

Oh I know that Crimsons had a lot of time for awhile, and Black Templar are on the cover of the 40K rule book for 3rd edition. But what I want is not a focus on anyone thing, but rather all of them. It's great that space marines sell, keeps the company afloat, but they do it at the expense of everything else it seem. Have different months where everyone is focused on just one army. The whole website celebrate Necron November, Sisters' September, Eldar February... idk. Something where for a certain time they will do more focus on one army, maybe even discounts, just to that people are seeing more time with things other then ultramarines, or crimson fists, or whoever is the poster for the time. Let the entire game be the poster, because there's alot more there then in just one army.

They'd need to include fantasy and LoTR in this sort of idea to, but that'd only help with promotion!

I like them a lot... but BT are cool, so are DA, Orks, Tau, etc...

They're my 2nd army, back in 1996 after about 5 years of playing Eldar.

Still love them, still do reasonably well with them, still love the haters... lets me play with a chip on my shoulder.

I love the idea that you can objectively hate something. Isn't like or dislike inherently subjective?

Anyway, I voted love. I've been playing Ultras since before there were any rules to differentiate between different Marine armies ('cept the Woofs) and when the colour of your armour was just the colour of your armour. Before Ward, before even the 2nd Ed Codex: Ultramarines. Back when I started, Ultramarines were different because they were blue, and that's it.

I like them so you can all suck my ridges!! =)

Galdos wrote:I dont hate the Ultramarines, infact I actually like them. I just hate the way Matt Ward writes about them

This

Don't hate them at all. However I like chapters with slightly different traits or tendencies. Picked the sallies back in 3rd ed when they had a lower initiative but got the bennies of 2 flamers in a squad, chappies with thunderhammers, multi-meltas on razorbacks, etc. Gave them an indentity different then "vanilla" marines. Then the Sallies got "vanilla-fied". Fortunately taking Vulkan helps fix that in 5th ed

If I ever did "Vanilla" marines, I'd go with Imperial Fists for the challenge of painting yellow

The poll seems to be indicating that its a very vocal minority that hates the Ultramarines so far.

I'm actually really enjoying this thread, there have been some really interesting posts so far.
Interestingly, I'd agree with the KamikazeCanuck here, the poll's indicating a hell of a lot less hate than I was expecting.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:There is no way to objectively hate the Ultramarines because all Ultramarines hate is based on the absolute dumbest reasons possible, and much of them rooted in misinformation or gross misinterpretation.

And is this comment supposed to be objective? All the people who dislike ultramarines have given valid, proper reasons.

No, no they haven't. They give the same reasons every time. And every time, they're still for absolutely idiotic reasons, mostly rooted in misinformation or misinterpretation.

Your post above being a classic example of this. You know, because Calgar is the only Special Character with an absurdly over the top series of background stories. Or that they "almost always come out victorious" (oh wait, they don't, and wait, the Space Marines are the protagonists of the setting and typically win no matter what chapter). And then, lastly, hating them because of some fictional gamer type nobody has ever met, and sounds like an invented cardstock person. So yeah, I'm spot on.

You do realise that it's just as easy to say that people who like the Ultramarines only like them for idiotic reason, don't you?

Anyway, I don't like the Ultramarines, but I don't dislike them either. The only thing that really grates with me is the 'holier than thou' attitude Ward decided they have.

Durza wrote:You do realise that it's just as easy to say that people who like the Ultramarines only like them for idiotic reason, don't you?

It's just as easy to say, because typing or vocalizing thoughts is incredibly easy. But that statement itself is idiotic.

The vast majority of stated reasons for hating the Ultramarines are based on misinformation or misinterpretation. There are a handful of valid haters out there, even if one wonders how such a strong opinion could be made regarding imaginary references to toy soldiers. One guy in another thread that he didn't think the Ultramarines were grimdark enough for the setting. I don't agree with it, and I felt his reasoning wasn't compelling at all, but I can't argue against his like or dislike based on a subjective interpretation of the setting. On the other hand, arguments like I discussed above are just wrong. There's nothing subjective about them, because objectively they don't hold any water at all.

However, on the flip side, for someone to like the Ultramarines, it's merely subjective, which isn't idiotic, typically. If someone said they loved the Ultramarines, then I'd sorta raise an eyebrow at them. But again, that love is going to be based on subjectivity. For people to say they couldn't care less about the Ultramarines, or were neutral to the Ultramarines, that's really the lowest opinion you can reasonably level against something to do with 40K unless you can provide an objective basis to the opinion. I mean, someone can fall back to the "Well, I just don't like them", but I'm still going to think they're an idiot. As should any other reasonable person.

Durza wrote:The only thing that really grates with me is the 'holier than thou' attitude Ward decided they have.

Of course, the interesting part of this statement is that nowhere in Matt Ward's Codex: Space Marines is that suggested. It's an idea entirely of your own imagining. Or, just as bad, somebody else's imaginary idea that you're mindlessly parroting.

Azure wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:Crimson Fists get a lot of face time in 40k, along with some of the other founding Chapters. There is a huge discrepancy in the amount of attention that some Chapters receive, and while you'd expect the founding Chapters to all get at least a modicum of that attention, it just isn't so. *CoughcoughIronHandscoughcough* While I understand that the Chapters that Forgeworld and Games Workshop are going to support are pretty established, I think it can kind of wear on those who do not play a Chapter that gets all the love. I am lucky to have a Special Character and some decals. I'm not lucky enough to have gotten Chapter symbols for my drop pods. It's all a balancing act, and I'm not going to blame people for being disgruntled with the 'favorite sons' of the company.

Oh I know that Crimsons had a lot of time for awhile, and Black Templar are on the cover of the 40K rule book for 3rd edition. But what I want is not a focus on anyone thing, but rather all of them. It's great that space marines sell, keeps the company afloat, but they do it at the expense of everything else it seem. Have different months where everyone is focused on just one army. The whole website celebrate Necron November, Sisters' September, Eldar February... idk. Something where for a certain time they will do more focus on one army, maybe even discounts, just to that people are seeing more time with things other then ultramarines, or crimson fists, or whoever is the poster for the time. Let the entire game be the poster, because there's alot more there then in just one army.

They'd need to include fantasy and LoTR in this sort of idea to, but that'd only help with promotion!

Azure speaks the truth.

The problem is that GW focuses on Space Marines because they sell more than the other models. It's not that they sell more Space Marines because they advertise them more. They've tried in the past to boost sales of other armies, and people still want more Space Marines.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Durza wrote:One guy in another thread that he didn't think the Ultramarines were grimdark enough for the setting. I don't agree with it, and I felt his reasoning wasn't compelling at all, but I can't argue against his like or dislike based on a subjective interpretation of the setting.

Yay! People are talking about me!

But yeah, I voted that I disliked the Ultramarines. Voting that you hated or loved them would be weird, as Veteran Sergeant said.

I quite like them, despite some recent irritating fluff (like Krakens Swarmlord being killed by Calgar - after it already fought him and won with Behemoth). I like how they've carved out a mini Empire, and their Roman theme. I even like their colours.

I wouldn't ever collect them, because I'm pretty much over Space Marines entirely. But, aside from some odd fluff and fanwank from Mat Ward, I've never seen a reason for outright hating them.

Most of you may have seen this already, but it sums up why people hate Mat. The majority don't hate the UM because of who they are, but because of what Mat Ward suddenly made them.

Thing is though, that's a bit of personal fanwank that is not in actual fluff (the spritual leige crap). The other stuff (writing a lot about their victories on campaign) is just usual Space Marine codex fluff.

-Loki- wrote:Thing is though, that's a bit of personal fanwank that is not in actual fluff (the spritual leige crap). The other stuff (writing a lot about their victories on campaign) is just usual Space Marine codex fluff.

Yes, but when the lead designer/writer guy says that about them it taints people's views as it shows the book was designed with the UM in mind, putting them deliberately above the rest etc etc.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:s it shows the book was designed with the UM in mind, putting them deliberately above the rest etc etc.

That should be no surprise to anyone paying attention. The original Codex: Space Marines was called Codex: Ultramarines. The painting guides in every C:SM are how to paint Ultramarines. In fact they were called "Painting Ultramarines" and "Painting Ultramarines Tanks" in the 4th Edition SM codex, and 3rd Edition had "How to Paint an Ultramarine". Codex: Ultramarines called them "The Greatest of all Space Marine Chapters", right on the back cover. I don't understand where the idea comes from that the Ultramarines being the exemplar and best of the chapters is some invention of Matt Ward's.

They've pretty much always been the best. Or at least longer than most people have been playing 40K. I guess the old guys like myself who started playing in Rogue Trader can bitch about this. But... why bother? I mean, in theory somebody has to be the best. Might as well be the Ultramarines.

There are more threads about peoples' opinions on Ultramarines than on Ultramarines themselves.
That is all.

I hate that shade of blue, other than that, my demons like them just fine.

Should have know your a demons played Frazzled due to your evilness....and wiener dogs.

You would think they would've gone for Crimson Fists, condering the RT cover depicted them not UM.

Woah, Frazzled is no longer a mod? Christ do I suddenly feel old, and I'm not even 20.

On topic: I like the Ultramarines, I just hate the attention they get. When written well, the Ultras are complex because their image causes tension with others, and themselves. The problem is GW pimps them so much lesser writers also have to make canon for them. I wouldn't mind them being the poster child if GW wrote exclusively interesting stories about them, instead of power fantasies and gun porn.

If they cut the Space Marine's gallery, in the main rulebook, down to the same amount as everyone else's, and just kept half of the pictures as the boys in blue, I'd be fine with that. I don't even mind the additional full spread of a deployed company; who better to display this pervasive doctrine than the progenitors? Using that saturation as a model for the rest of the fluff, especially the codex, I think the Ultras could rebuild their mythos.

I'm between dislike and hate. They always strike me as a bunch of attention seeking glory boys.

I actually really like them they were the first ever 500 points of mine =P

Love them. Even more after Know No Fear.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Yes, but when the lead designer/writer guy says that about them it taints people's views as it shows the book was designed with the UM in mind, putting them deliberately above the rest etc etc.

I I am not sure what the issue is you guys have. Have you actually seen the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex? It doesn't feature a single morsel of fluff that is not Ultramarines aside two Special Characters (Lysander & Shrike). All fluff retelling famous wars and battles covers Ultramarines and Ultramarines only. Every single peace of artwork in their has Ultramarines. Every single picture in the old-style army-lists next to every single unit, tank, whatever you can select is shown as Ultramarines. It has no "generic" special units like Sternguard or Command Squads, but only "Ultramarine Tyranid War Veterans" and "Calgar Honour Guard". Literally every little "box" with a story features Ultramarines (by Graham McNeil). The entire painting/hobby section is "exclusively" Ultramarines except for 2 pages of "alternative colour schemes" and two double-page spreads, one for IF, one for Raven Guard. Adding it all together, 4th Edition had about 8 to 10 pages of "non-Ultramarines" stuff in a nearly 90 page book. Another 5 pages or so are generic Horus Heresy and Space Marine Organs and the trait-system. The rest, easily 80% of the 4th Edition Codex is Ultramarines and Ultramarines only.


By comparison, Ultramarines make up less than a quarter in the 144 page 5th Edition book. It features a greatly expanded selection of non-Ultramarine Characters (Kantor, Vulkan, Khan, etc..). It features more "non-Ultramarine-fluff" than all previous generic Space Marine Codexes published taken together. It removed the "Ultramarine serials" from all units selectable in the army list. Mat Ward's 5th Edition Codex is, by a long stretch, the least Ultramarine-centric Space Marine Codex ever written by GW.

If anything, that White Dwarf Interview of Mat Ward above should be seen in the context of his possible worries that the fan-base might be angered of him removing Ultramarines so far from the limelight, unprecedented in 40K history. They might have, at the time and in the context, been appeasement more than fan-spank, re-assuring fans that he still loves Ultramarines even though the 5th Edition Codex clearly gives them the short shrift (in comparison what was "normal" before 5th Edition).

Zweischneid wrote:If anything, that White Dwarf Interview of Mat Ward above should be seen in the context of his possible worries that the fan-base might be angered of him removing Ultramarines so far from the limelight, unprecedented in 40K history.

It wouldn't be unprecedented, because they actually did this in the 3rd edition Space Marine codex, when they decided to 'defluff' the codices. It actually was Codex Space Marines in that it wasn't about any one chapter, even the fluff that was in it was about all different chapters. In the 3.5 edition codex, when they realized people wanted fluff in their codices still, they recentered the Ultramarines as the fluff focus and added Tyrannic War Veterans and Honour Guard.

-Loki- wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:If anything, that White Dwarf Interview of Mat Ward above should be seen in the context of his possible worries that the fan-base might be angered of him removing Ultramarines so far from the limelight, unprecedented in 40K history.

It wouldn't be unprecedented, because they actually did this in the 3rd edition Space Marine codex, when they decided to 'defluff' the codices. It actually was Codex Space Marines in that it wasn't about any one chapter, even the fluff that was in it was about all different chapters. In the 3.5 edition codex, when they realized people wanted fluff in their codices still, they recentered the Ultramarines as the fluff focus and added Tyrannic War Veterans and Honour Guard.

Well, than lets put it the other way around.

Mat Ward's Space Marine Codex for 5th Edition has an unprecedented focus and emphasis on "non-Ultramarine" Space Marine Chapters. The amount of stuff in there for, and the relative space given to "non-Ultramarines" dwarfs the combined amount of fluff that Raven Guard, Salamanders, White Scars, whathaveyou have ever received in a 40K Codex by an order of multitudes. It is unprecedented in its non-Ultramarine loving. Also, the Ultramarines get a low-key showing unprecedented in the history of 40K for all generic Space Marine Codexes that ever actually had anything remotely resembling fluff. Finally, it is also the first and only generic Space Marine Codex since 3rd Edition that features a completely "fluff-neutral" army list with no Ultramarine-specific bias written into the game-mechanics and army-selection itself.

That better?

No matter what I said on the previous page, I still maintain that had GW chosen Blood Angels to be the 'face' of Space Marines rather than Ultramarines then we'd still be having topics like this, only about the Blood Angels and not the Ultramarines.

We still get topics like this about Blood Angels. In point of fact, it seemed like there was a point when "Lolz, do Blood Angles sprakle in daylite?" threads were popping up as fast as the mods could lock them.

The UM are just... Bland. And boring. The BA are interesting and flawed, giving them a darker outlook and more appeal.


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The UM are just... Bland. And boring. The BA are interesting and flawed, giving them a darker outlook and more appeal.

I personaly like the smurfs. No terribly cliched dark secrets, no unwholesome close combat fetish ( huh? no brother chaplain, i do not wish to compensate any shortcommings with my ultralong sword ) and no disturbing wolf fetish. The smurfs ( as well as many of their later foundings ) are disciplined, efficient and generaly try to fight intelligently.
They aren't prone to berserker rages and even know that sometimes a retreat is better than meaningless sacrifice.
Sure, there are some parts within the fluff that are a bit hard to stomach but sadly many 40k armies tend to suffer in that regard.

H.B.M.C. wrote:No matter what I said on the previous page, I still maintain that had GW chosen Blood Angels to be the 'face' of Space Marines rather than Ultramarines then we'd still be having topics like this, only about the Blood Angels and not the Ultramarines.

Pretty much. It comes back to my unified theory of "Why not my favorite color of plastic toy soldiers?".

There's nothing markedly more or less interesting about any of the Big Four Space Marine chapters. Some will grab the imagination of certain players more so than others. But hating a specific color of plastic toy soldiers seems pretty silly. There's nothing overly offensive about any of them.

The UM are just... Bland. And boring. The BA are interesting and flawed, giving them a darker outlook and more appeal.

This is the perfect example right here. He feels the Ultramarines aren't "flawed" and that makes the Blood Angels more appealing. However, the "flaw" of the Blood Angels is a little silly and contrived to me, as are their vampirism and perfect hairdos. I look at the flaws of pretty much all Space Marines (amorality, arrogance, pride, living essentially forever while eschewing all the benefits of being alive, etc) and find them to be sufficiently compelling (considering they are without exception exaggeratedly two dimensional characters, at best, so depth isn't really a requisite focal point for them) without some kind of external influence. Does that mean I dislike the Blood Angels? No. That would be silly.

Lord Rogukiel wrote: Calgar holding an Ork horde for en entire day and night by himself? Let's playtest that now shall we?

The game doesn't have anything to do with the fluff. The game is designed to make sure people play a "balanced and even" game. (Ideas of codex creep or inbalance not withstanding) its not a game that is meant to have a lot to do with what would actually happen in the 40k universe. That's what the novels are supposed to be for.

I happen to like the Ultramarines, particularly pre-heresy and during the heresy. I think people's answers are interesting as it seems mostly dislike for Mat Ward, GW marketing practice and dislike for TFG at the store. That has little to do with the Ultramarines as they sit in the game's lore. I think in the game most people would rather play against a well painted thematic Ultramarine army than the latest SW/GK/IG net list yes? I mean this is wargaming, every army has players that are TFG and think they are the best and your army sucks.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say I hate the Ultramarines but rather I mildly dislike them based on their background (lacks depth) as well as how they’re interpreted (e.g. “greatest of them all”).

What strikes me odd is why they’re (nearly) always the chosen as the poster boys for a product, given how bland their background is. I’ve always felt that the Dark Angels or the Imperial Fists were a better choice for poster boys as their background has a little more edge and better represents the “Grim Dark” nature of 40k.

Personally I think the Ultramarines fluff could benefit from a small overhaul to give their background a little more character.

What this poll is missing is "I don't hate Ultramarines, just the BS Mat Ward writes"

Jimsolo wrote:We still get topics like this about Blood Angels. In point of fact, it seemed like there was a point when "Lolz, do Blood Angles sprakle in daylite?" threads were popping up as fast as the mods could lock them.

You're missing my point. My point was people pick on the Ultras because they're the face of 40K. They're used to unify the Space Marine brand across all the non-Chapter specific products, and thus they have the greatest exposure. Go back 20 years and change that to the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels or the Salamanders or the bloody Rainbow Warriors and we'd have the same result - this thread would just be called "The Objective [Whatever Chapter is the face of 40K] Hate Thread".

candy.man wrote:What strikes me odd is why they’re (nearly) always the chosen as the poster boys for a product, given how bland their background is. I’ve always felt that the Dark Angels or the Imperial Fists were a better choice for poster boys as their background has a little more edge and better represents the “Grim Dark” nature of 40k.

Sponge-Bob Marines? Dear God please no. Besides, since Jim Carrey cornered the joke on "cannot tell a lie", Dorn will forever be seen as the Primarch who also like to talk through his butt cheeks.

And Dark Angels are getting their shot at the limelight next edition apparently.

I don't like Sicarius. Douche. Marneus Douche. Rowboat. Douche. Ward - douche.

Tigirus - cool
Cassius - cool

Salamanders are more humanitarian and way cooler. But they is blak so leik not cool to haz as the posta boyz know what I'm sayin' blood aite?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Jimsolo wrote:We still get topics like this about Blood Angels. In point of fact, it seemed like there was a point when "Lolz, do Blood Angles sprakle in daylite?" threads were popping up as fast as the mods could lock them.

You're missing my point. My point was people pick on the Ultras because they're the face of 40K. They're used to unify the Space Marine brand across all the non-Chapter specific products, and thus they have the greatest exposure. Go back 20 years and change that to the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels or the Salamanders or the bloody Rainbow Warriors and we'd have the same result - this thread would just be called "The Objective [Whatever Chapter is the face of 40K] Hate Thread".

I think everyone already knew this, though, tbh. Everyone knows that the natural reaction to main stream is to consciously dislike it.

I don't hate the Smurphs, but they are indeed overexposed. The UM's are the equivalent of DC Comics deciding tomorrow to take half of the current running comic series, which are all focused on a different character each, and convert them all into Superman comics.

It's just kind of a dick move. You provide a small snippet of info about almost every major chapter, just enough to make make people interested in them, then you focus 90% of your chapter fluff on just one of those chapters because you want it to be the poster boy (though the BL has done a fantastic job of alleviating that pain). Is that a flaw on the Ultramarine's part? No. Does it make sense from a marketing perspective and as a learning tool? Yes. Does it make me want to know about the Ultramarines? No way in hell.

Phototoxin wrote:I don't like Sicarius. Douche. Marneus Douche. Rowboat. Douche. Ward - douche.

Tigirus - cool
Cassius - cool

Salamanders are more humanitarian and way cooler. But they is blak so leik not cool to haz as the posta boyz know what I'm sayin' blood aite?

Yep, totally the reason why Salamanders aren't the poster boys.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Durza wrote:You do realise that it's just as easy to say that people who like the Ultramarines only like them for idiotic reason, don't you?

It's just as easy to say, because typing or vocalizing thoughts is incredibly easy. But that statement itself is idiotic.

The vast majority of stated reasons for hating the Ultramarines are based on misinformation or misinterpretation. There are a handful of valid haters out there, even if one wonders how such a strong opinion could be made regarding imaginary references to toy soldiers. One guy in another thread that he didn't think the Ultramarines were grimdark enough for the setting. I don't agree with it, and I felt his reasoning wasn't compelling at all, but I can't argue against his like or dislike based on a subjective interpretation of the setting. On the other hand, arguments like I discussed above are just wrong. There's nothing subjective about them, because objectively they don't hold any water at all.

However, on the flip side, for someone to like the Ultramarines, it's merely subjective, which isn't idiotic, typically. If someone said they loved the Ultramarines, then I'd sorta raise an eyebrow at them. But again, that love is going to be based on subjectivity. For people to say they couldn't care less about the Ultramarines, or were neutral to the Ultramarines, that's really the lowest opinion you can reasonably level against something to do with 40K unless you can provide an objective basis to the opinion. I mean, someone can fall back to the "Well, I just don't like them", but I'm still going to think they're an idiot. As should any other reasonable person.

May I ask why it is that you like them then?

Durza wrote:The only thing that really grates with me is the 'holier than thou' attitude Ward decided they have.

Of course, the interesting part of this statement is that nowhere in Matt Ward's Codex: Space Marines is that suggested. It's an idea entirely of your own imagining. Or, just as bad, somebody else's imaginary idea that you're mindlessly parroting.

Again I will point out that the codex calls those that don't follow the codex Astartes degenerates and that other chapters strive to emulate the Ultramarine's example. Since the omniscient narrator should be neutral, that means someone in the universe holds that opinion, and it's probably not the degenerates. And of course, I didn't say that he said that in the codex. And they even had this before Ward started writing them. As far back as Index Astartes we have Guilliman whining at Alpharius for not using the tactics that he thinks are best, and then claiming the Ultramarines must be better because they brought more planets into compliance because of a two hundred year head start. They didn't have much of a problem with bombing the Word Bearer's world either. So no, that idea is not from my or anyone else's imagination apart from the writers of 40k.

Durza wrote:
May I ask why it is that you like them then?

A) The colourscheme. Fairly easy to paint. Looks splendid on the battlefield. All-round awsome.

B) The nostalgia. Always a soft spot for the "army" that started you into the hobby.

C) Iconically Space Marines. Ultramarines are Space Marines. No others match the simple elegance. Space Wolves are Space Marines, but also Vikings/Werewolves. Blood Angels are Space Marine, but also Vampires/flawed. Etc.. They all feel "cluttered" compared to Ultramarines.

D) The fluff. The epitome of what the IoM potentially could be. A fighting force that "would fight until the stars turn cold, not only for the immortal Emperor, but for Mankind itself". Still gives me chills every single time.

E) Conflict of tradition vs. necessity for change. One of the most powerful themes, at the heart of the "pseudo-mediveal" setting of 40K, epitomized, among others, by Cassius and his "Tyranid War Veterans" and their tension against Codex-hardliners.

F) The recent writing. Gonna unleash another torrent of anti-Ward hate for sure, but I strongly feel he is the best writer in 40K. He goes nutty sometimes, but there is action and honestly-felt exitement. Cruddace and Kelly bore me to tears with their bland, expositionary and sterile writing. After suffering through the dry slog of 3rd and 4th that was defined either by the absence of fluff or fluff written with that bored pretentiousness of jaded writers (Messrs Kelly above all) who could no longer seem to summone that true, honest, unabashed passion for the contents and the universe, Mat's Space Marine book was like a revalation that threw me back wholesale into the excitement of this hobby in ways I hadn't experienced since the mid 1990s.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:[Again I will point out that the codex calls those that don't follow the codex Astartes degenerates and that other chapters strive to emulate the Ultramarine's example. Since the omniscient narrator should be neutral, that means someone in the universe holds that opinion, and it's probably not the degenerates.

The key and important part of the Codex Astartes is the process of producing Space Marines, gene-seed, organs, etc.. . It was introduced because in the Heresy, those that churned out Marines in mass-production did indeed see the gene-seed degenerate. Hence why so many are flawed. Holding to this part of the Codex does indeed save Marines from genetic degeneration. And if an omniscient narrator narrates something, than noone in the universe holds that opinion. An omniscient narrator narrates the "facts". If he says, the sky was red, it doesn't mean someone had the opinion that the sky was red. It means the sky was, in this fictional narrated by the omniscient narrator, infact quite red.


[edit]

Also, I would like to also point you (and others), once again to the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex by Pete Haines and Graham McNeill: Quote: "Of the First Founding Chapters, or Primogenitor Chapters as they are sometimes known, the most famous are the Ultramarines of Macragge, the Chapter of the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself. The Codex is not enforced - indeed it is debateable whether any force exists that could do so - and there are many Chapters, such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, whose organisation varies from its teaching to a greater or lesser extent. It can be promoted, though, [...] By their reverent obediance to the tenets of the Codex, these Chapters [e.g. Codex Chapter] do honour to their forebears, to Roboute Guilliman, and to the Emperor himself."

Emphasis mine.

So tell me, where Codex Chapters give "reverent obedience" to the Codex Astartes, to "do honour" to, among others, the Primarch of the Ultramarines as "the most famous" of Chapters in 4th Edition, what exactly is it that Mat Ward changed there?

In and of themselves, I have several issues with the Ultramarines.

First, the name is somewhat silly, being simultaneously a color-pun and implying some sort of superiority over other marines.

Second, they claim to be the most codex adherent chapter, yet rule their own mini-empire with huge numbers of non-astartes forces under their control in the Chapter Master's role as Governor-General, grossly violating one of the key tenets and purposes of the Codex Astartes which was to make the Space Marines unable to command vast armies and resources to be able to rebel or create their own mini-empires and the like. Rather hypocritical.

Third, for being Angels of Death and all that genetically engineered super soldier warrior monk serving an oppressive theocracy, they somehow manage their mini-empire with impressive political and economic skill (not quite sure where Space Marines would pick those skills up, especially the latter) and a comparatively open and advanced society by Imperial standards. Somewhat odd.

Fourth, Mat Ward made them out to be (and flat out stated they were in White Dwarf) the absolute Best Space Marines with other chapters aspiring to their ability, which is ridiculous. An unfortunate effect of a fanboy author that wasn't always necessarily the case but is now.

TL;DR, they have a silly name, do things they supposedly stand against, and are made out to be something that should be very subjective at best.

I can list why I dislike them.

A: Okay the color-scheme ain't that bad, but the toilet-seat was an u-turn. Though I'm aware that it's actually an U just before some boring fellow get the idea that I don't know what an U is or haven't read the Codex Space Marines.

B: Never collected them, so no nostalgia there.

C: Well if the Ultramarines are the Greco-Romans they likely have very disturbing things to do on the side "hint, hint, nudge, nudge". Of course it ain't stated in fluff, but would actually be fun if it was. And even funnier watching Matt Ward get arrested.

D: The fluff. *barf*

E: Conflict of what? Sorry a bowl of cornflakes has more personality than the Ultramarines as of now. And yes I'm aware that the Ultramarines can move, think, fire guns and even plan, that doesn't mean they are interesting. The bowl of cornflakes still wins as the cornflakes gets all soggy with milk and such, while the Ultramarines are just blue and kinda sad.

F: If I comment on Matt Ward the police will arrest me, or I get banned from this forum. For my reaction about him, just go for the barf-scene from Team America: World Police.

For reasons to like them.

Well then I have to go against fluff, and then the Ultramarine fanbois will fluff me to dead because of delusions that I haven't read the Codex Space Marines.

Zweischneid wrote:

Durza wrote:
May I ask why it is that you like them then?

A) The colourscheme. Fairly easy to paint. Looks splendid on the battlefield. All-round awesome.

Basically the same as every other Space Marine army then.

B) The nostalgia. Always a soft spot for the "army" that started you into the hobby.

Which is just as valid a reason for me disliking them, since I started with Alpha Legion

C) Iconically Space Marines. Ultramarines are Space Marines. No others match the simple elegance. Space Wolves are Space Marines, but also Vikings/Werewolves. Blood Angels are Space Marine, but also Vampires/flawed. Etc.. They all feel "cluttered" compared to Ultramarines.

Salamanders, White Scars, Black Templars, Raven Guard...

D) The fluff. The epitome of what the IoM potentially could be. A fighting force that "would fight until the stars turn cold, not only for the immortal Emperor, but for Mankind itself". Still gives me chills every single time.

I will admit that's a cool quote. But I can also point out a lot of terrible fluff involving them.

E) Conflict of tradition vs. necessity for change. One of the most powerful themes, at the heart of the "pseudo-mediveal" setting of 40K, epitomized, among others, by Cassius and his "Tyranid War Veterans" and their tension against Codex hard-liners.

This theme is completely absent from everything I have read about them. I probably missed it somewhere, so if there's actually some conflict in what I always considered an incredibly bland chapter for the amount of fluff they have, I will probably have to re-evaluate my position on them.

F) The recent writing. Gonna unleash another torrent of anti-Ward hate for sure, but I strongly feel he is the best writer in 40K. He goes nutty sometimes, but there is action and honestly-felt exitement. Cruddace and Kelly bore me to tears with their bland, expositionary and sterile writing. After suffering through the dry slog of 3rd and 4th that was defined either by the absence of fluff or fluff written with that bored pretentiousness of jaded writers (Messrs Kelly above all) who could no longer seem to summone that true, honest, unabashed passion for the contents and the universe, Mat's Space Marine book was like a revalation that threw me back wholesale into the excitement of this hobby in ways I hadn't experienced since the mid 1990s.

Ward's writing might be exciting, but the lack of detail and unbelievability that causes drags it down horribly. That's all I'm gonna say about him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Durza wrote:[Again I will point out that the codex calls those that don't follow the codex Astartes degenerates and that other chapters strive to emulate the Ultramarine's example. Since the omniscient narrator should be neutral, that means someone in the universe holds that opinion, and it's probably not the degenerates.

The key and important part of the Codex Astartes is the process of producing Space Marines, gene-seed, organs, etc.. . It was introduced because in the Heresy, those that churned out Marines in mass-production did indeed see the gene-seed degenerate. Hence why so many are flawed. Holding to this part of the Codex does indeed save Marines from genetic degeneration. And if an omniscient narrator narrates something, than noone in the universe holds that opinion. An omniscient narrator narrates the "facts". If he says, the sky was red, it doesn't mean someone had the opinion that the sky was red. It means the sky was, in this fictional narrated by the omniscient narrator, infact quite red.

Actually, that would depend on the position you were viewing the sky from, so it would still be an opinion based on the point you were observing the sky from. Someone a few kilometers away or above the viewer would almost certainly disagree.

Also, I would like to also point you (and others), once again to the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex by Pete Haines and Graham McNeill: Quote: "Of the First Founding Chapters, or Primogenitor Chapters as they are sometimes known, the most famous are the Ultramarines of Macragge, the Chapter of the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself. The Codex is not enforced - indeed it is debateable whether any force exists that could do so - and there are many Chapters, such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, whose organisation varies from its teaching to a greater or lesser extent. It can be promoted, though, [...] By their reverent obediance to the tenets of the Codex, these Chapters [e.g. Codex Chapter] do honour to their forebears, to Roboute Guilliman, and to the Emperor himself."

Emphasis mine.

So tell me, where Codex Chapters give "reverent obedience" to the Codex Astartes, to "do honour" to, among others, the Primarch of the Ultramarines as "the most famous" of Chapters in 4th Edition, what exactly is it that Mat Ward changed there?

What Ward changed was his interview as a representative of GW and the fact that those who do not abide by these optional rules are now degenerates.

Durza wrote:
Actually, that would depend on the position you were viewing the sky from, so it would still be an opinion based on the point you were observing the sky from. Someone a few kilometers away or above the viewer would almost certainly disagree.

Sorry. No. If an omniscent narrator says the sky is red, it's red. No "different perspective from a few kilometers away" to it. If the narrator says something like "Person X looked up to the sky and it was (to his eyes) red." It might be different. But if it's just stated as "Sky is Red", than that's that for a fictional universe presented by an omniscent narrator.

What Ward changed was his interview as a representative of GW and the fact that those who do not abide by these optional rules are now degenerates.

Read the interview again and I cannot find the degenerate quote. Maybe you could enlighten me. In either case, I was under the impression that the reviled part was the "spiritual liege" part, which was, as shown above, aleady present in 4th Edition (and before).

Durza wrote:
Which is just as valid a reason for me disliking them, since I started with Alpha Legion

How does disliking Alpha Legion imply disliking Ultramarines? They are part of the same universe. It's like "I dislike Sherlock Holmes because I like Dr. Moriaty". Doesn't really make sense. They occupy different roles in the same narrative.

Why do you see the omniscient? I certainly does not. I see the Codex Space Marines as written by Ultramarine scribes, and it is. Matt Ward is one, he certainly ain't neutral. So much for omniscience for you.

Beaviz81 wrote:Why do you see the omniscient? I certainly does not. I see the Codex Space Marines as written by Ultramarine scribes, and it is. Matt Ward is one, he certainly ain't neutral. So much for omniscience for you.

I didn't, which you would know if you'd actually read the quotes I put into my post to show who and to what I am responding.
I think the statement that started the debate was the following, which strangely equates an "omniscient narrator" with "someone in the universe holds that opinion", which I considered a misunderstanding of what an "omniscient narrator" actually is.

Durza wrote:
Again I will point out that the codex calls those that don't follow the codex Astartes degenerates and that other chapters strive to emulate the Ultramarine's example. Since the omniscient narrator should be neutral, that means someone in the universe holds that opinion, and it's probably not the degenerates..

Zweischneid wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Why do you see the omniscient? I certainly does not. I see the Codex Space Marines as written by Ultramarine scribes, and it is. Matt Ward is one, he certainly ain't neutral. So much for omniscience for you.

I didn't, which you would know if you'd actually read the quotes I put into my post to show who and to what I am responding.
I think the statement that started the debate was the following, which strangely equates an "omniscient narrator" with "someone in the universe holds that opinion", which I considered a misunderstanding of what an "omniscient narrator" actually is.

Beaviz81 wrote:

So you are allowed to interpret the Codex Space Marines and not Durza? Strange to see that Robute Guilliman who actually was hinted to being quite the diplomat has so undiplomatic followers.

For me, the things about the Ultramarines reminds me of a book I had about the Greek and Romans as a kid (me and my buddies wondered for years how the hell the Roman empire crumbled because of that book). All the positive is in, but none of the crap. The whole Codex Space Marines smacks extremely strongly of propaganda, and looks a tad too bright. All the bright spots are in and none of the dark. So what's the kicker?

No. I am saying there is a fallacy in this definition of omniscient narrator. It could be:

A) an omniscient narrator, in which case what is narrated is a fact.

or it could be

B) a biased narrator, who presents an opinion held some place "in-universe". Possibly propaganda.

It could be one or the other, and we can happily discuss A vs. B. But if it is an omniscient narrator, it is by definition not "opinion" but "fact" that is reported. If it is not "fact", but "opinion" that is reported, it is by definition not an omniscient narrator. It wasn't even related to the question of whether the Space Marine Codex has an omniscient narrator or not. It was a general statement about the nature of an omniscient narrator in any sort of fiction, 40K or not, sci-fi or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscient_narrator

Beaviz81 wrote:I can list why I dislike them.

A: Okay the color-scheme ain't that bad, but the toilet-seat was an u-turn. Though I'm aware that it's actually an U just before some boring fellow get the idea that I don't know what an U is or haven't read the Codex Space Marines.

Fair enough, I can see why you'd find a simple letter "U" a little underwhelming.

B: Never collected them, so no nostalgia there.

Again, fair enough. One of the reasons I still like the Word Bearers is nostalgia, so I can see how your lack of it is a factor.

C: Well if the Ultramarines are the Greco-Romans they likely have very disturbing things to do on the side "hint, hint, nudge, nudge". Of course it ain't stated in fluff, but would actually be fun if it was. And even funnier watching Matt Ward get arrested.

...Are you fething kidding me?
What? Are you referring to the fact that both of those societies believed that homosexual relationships were fine? Does the buttsex come across to you as "disturbing?"
Or is it the orgy side of Greco-Roman culture you think of as "disturbing?" Somehow, I suspect you were implying the former.
You see, chap. SM have highly suppressed sexual drives, if indeed they have them at all. The only reason the Emperor's Children exhibit those urges is because of the surgery and warping they went through, so no, it's unlikely that Marneus Calgar has a Mr. Calgar waiting for him to get home from campaigns, nor is it likely that the UM round up the women and menfolk of Macragge and engage in X-rated rituals to the Emperor with them.

Gorskar. It's quite illegal for grown men and young boys to get it on. Unfortunately I know, too much about the Greco-Roman society. Actually the comment about MW getting arrested was more meant as humor.

Zweischneid wrote:

Durza wrote:
Actually, that would depend on the position you were viewing the sky from, so it would still be an opinion based on the point you were observing the sky from. Someone a few kilometers away or above the viewer would almost certainly disagree.

Sorry. No. If an omniscent narrator says the sky is red, it's red. No "different perspective from a few kilometers away" to it. If the narrator says something like "Person X looked up to the sky and it was (to his eyes) red." It might be different. But if it's just stated as "Sky is Red", than that's that for a fictional universe presented by an omniscent narrator.

No true omniscient narrator would describe a sky as red, since they would be aware of the inherent incorrectness of the statement.

What Ward changed was his interview as a representative of GW and the fact that those who do not abide by these optional rules are now degenerates.

Read the interview again and I cannot find the degenerate quote. Maybe you could enlighten me. In either case, I was under the impression that the reviled part was the "spiritual liege" part, which was, as shown above, aleady present in 4th Edition (and before).

The degenerate part is in the codex. The interview gave us the part saying that the "Ultramarines are the best Space Marine chapter out there. No really! They have to work harder than everyone else too." Which a pretty odd thing to say for a representative of GW to a magazine about Warhammer.

Durza wrote:
Which is just as valid a reason for me disliking them, since I started with Alpha Legion

How does disliking Alpha Legion imply disliking Ultramarines? They are part of the same universe. It's like "I dislike Sherlock Holmes because I like Dr. Moriaty". Doesn't really make sense. They occupy different roles in the same narrative.

Diametrically opposed viewpoints, Guilliman dissing them and their tactics and trying to get them to follow his own, the possible death of Alpharius at their hands. And I like the Alpha Legion, not dislike.

Durza wrote:
Diametrically opposed viewpoints, Guilliman dissing them and their tactics and trying to get them to follow his own, the possible death of Alpharius at their hands. And I like the Alpha Legion, not dislike.

Like ok. Of course they are diametrically opposed viewpoints. That's the point. It's a wargame after all. There'd be no famous "nothing but war" if the factions in 40K didn't strongly disagree on pretty much everything pretty much all the tim.

Are you saying you dislike Ultramarines because you actually take "sides" with a fictional faction of a wargame against another fictional faction of the very same wargame?

That'd be the most stupid thing I've ever heard.

I mean, you know that this is a literary device? How do you underline the point that Alpha Legion uses "unconventional tactics"? You have the iconic representative of "conventional tactics" diss them. Ergo: Now the reader knows how much the Alpha Legion "go against the grain". But they couldn't "go against convention", if the convention didn't exist (or more correctly, wasn't established by the writers) in the first place. Surely you are aware of that?

Zweischneid wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:

So you are allowed to interpret the Codex Space Marines and not Durza? Strange to see that Robute Guilliman who actually was hinted to being quite the diplomat has so undiplomatic followers.

For me, the things about the Ultramarines reminds me of a book I had about the Greek and Romans as a kid (me and my buddies wondered for years how the hell the Roman empire crumbled because of that book). All the positive is in, but none of the crap. The whole Codex Space Marines smacks extremely strongly of propaganda, and looks a tad too bright. All the bright spots are in and none of the dark. So what's the kicker?

No. I am saying there is a fallacy in this definition of omniscient narrator. It could be:

A) an omniscient narrator, in which case what is narrated is a fact.

or it could be

B) a biased narrator, who presents an opinion held some place "in-universe". Possibly propaganda.

It could be one or the other, and we can happily discuss A vs. B. But if it is an omniscient narrator, it is by definition not "opinion" but "fact" that is reported. If it is not "fact", but "opinion" that is reported, it is by definition not an omniscient narrator. It wasn't even related to the question of whether the Space Marine Codex has an omniscient narrator or not. It was a general statement about the nature of an omniscient narrator in any sort of fiction, 40K or not, sci-fi or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscient_narrator

Matt Ward is a very biased narrator, and that's how it is nothing can change that. If that is an omniscient narrator, then you know the viewpoint already is biased and extremely heavily slanted towards the Ultramairnes.

Also it was fairly obvious at least to me that Durza loves the Alpha Marines, and still does. Of course he ain't insane, so he doesn't hate the Ultramarines blindly because of it. But I have no doubt he would answer that one himself.

they are boring and i don't like their boringness

thats said i believe the other armies need to recieve more love for their tactics make the scars able to take bike armies. the manders are well set. the fist should be the bombardment chapter who take strongpoints. the ravenguard should allow troops to infiltrate. the iron hands have bionics and unusual stats.

and the ultras are you basic chapter. problem solved

Beaviz81 wrote:Gorskar. It's quite illegal for grown men and young boys to get it on. Unfortunately I know, too much about the Greco-Roman society. Actually the comment about MW getting arrested was more meant as humor.

I get the "Ward Arrest," and it seems we're referring to different aspects of that culture.
I was referring to the "Spartan relationship," as it were, where two warriors ended up in the same regiment precisely because they were in a relationship.
They'd fight harder to impress each other, or so their commanders thought.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:Gorskar. It's quite illegal for grown men and young boys to get it on. Unfortunately I know, too much about the Greco-Roman society. Actually the comment about MW getting arrested was more meant as humor.

I get the "Ward Arrest," and it seems we're referring to different aspects of that culture.
I was referring to the "Spartan relationship," as it were, where two warriors ended up in the same regiment precisely because they were in a relationship.
They'd fight harder to impress each other, or so their commanders thought.

Seriously, this is knowledge you don't want. It's Dark Eldar twisted. No joke. For the men fighting harder because of love, that's the Sacred Band, the fighters that actually beat up the Spartans. Not that the Spartans were opposed to a little fun in the barrack. Well a very disturbing thing about the Space Marines are how they take on the power armour together, I have cracked jokes about that before in the celibacy-thread over at WH40k background.

Durza wrote:
The degenerate part is in the codex.

I can’t seem to find it strangely.

There is a crucial difference between GW telling us that the Ultramarines are the greatest Chapter and the Ultramarines themselves proclaiming that they are the greatest Chapter. The latter would be pretty arrogant, while the former is merely GW describing the background. This is like saying the Dark Angels go around telling everyone that they have a big secret but aren't telling what it is.

Durza wrote:
The degenerate part is in the codex. The interview gave us the part saying that the "Ultramarines are the best Space Marine chapter out there. No really! They have to work harder than everyone else too." Which a pretty odd thing to say for a representative of GW to a magazine about Warhammer.

The Ultramarines were described as "the greatest" Chapter since 2nd Edition. This is not Matt Ward's invention. Though he was not very delicate in describing that.

I don't mind them. Their fluff can get irritating at times, but then again, Titus.
Just
Titus.

Vampirate of Sartosa wrote:I don't mind them. Their fluff can get irritating at times, but then again, Titus.
Just
Titus.

GOD YES, I FORGOT.

With the latest Space Marine Codex, and the omniscient being Matt Ward, then you know it's extremely heavily slanted towards the Ultramarines no matter what's stated in the past. The Space Marine Codex sure as hell ain't written from a neutral standpoint as I doubt the Imperial Fists f.ex. would describe the Ultramarines in such extremely flattering terms. Or how about the Raven Guard? And why shouldn't the Ultramarines describe themselves as the greatest chapter? They emerged as the victors of the Horus Heresy. They held the IOM together on their own, and if the Ultramarines reek of anything it's arrogance (just look at the bloody name for God's sake). But then again some people takes the fluff written down literally, others doesn't. The only thing known is that the two groups will never agree on anything.

Side note: I'm not stupid, so stating fluff is unnecessary no matter what. I have already read the damn Codex, and I have a burning wish of not reading it twice.

Beaviz81 wrote:With the latest Space Marine Codex, and the omniscient being Matt Ward, then you know it's extremely heavily slanted towards the Ultramarines no matter what's stated in the past. The Space Marine Codex sure as hell ain't written from a neutral standpoint as I doubt the Imperial Fists f.ex. would describe the Ultramarines in such extremely flattering terms.

2nd Edition was where GW had established the 40K universe as we still know it today. They have since added the Dark Eldar and the Tau, and fleshed out the Necrons (they only had experimental rules for Warriors and Scarabs in 2nd Edition). They have introduced Hive Fleet Leviathan and the Third War for Armageddon, and made the Black Templars into a divergent Chapter instead of being a Codex Chapter. So while they have mainly added new factions and events, some minor details aside, the 2nd Edition background is still current. The 5th Edition Marine Codices even outright copy and paste most of their background material from the 2nd Edition Codices. The pages 6 to 16 from the Codex Space Martines are taken almost verbatim from the Codex Ultramarines. What Matt Ward added to the Codex were short stories about some famous deeds of the Chapters.

Beaviz81 wrote: And why shouldn't the Ultramarines describe themselves as the greatest chapter? They emerged as the victors of the Horus Heresy. They held the IOM together on their own, and if the Ultramarines reek of anything it's arrogance (just look at the bloody name for God's sake).

Interestingly enough, the Deathwatch sourcebooks explicitly describe the Ultramarines as less arrogant than other chapters. The only arrogant Ultramarines are stated to be the insane ones.

Beaviz81 wrote: But then again some people takes the fluff written down literally, others doesn't. The only thing known is that the two groups will never agree on anything.

Well we all like fanfiction, but I can’t go around just making stuff up.

Beaviz81 wrote:With the latest Space Marine Codex, and the omniscient being Matt Ward, then you know it's extremely heavily slanted towards the Ultramarines no matter what's stated in the past. The Space Marine Codex sure as hell ain't written from a neutral standpoint as I doubt the Imperial Fists f.ex. would describe the Ultramarines in such extremely flattering terms. Or how about the Raven Guard? And why shouldn't the Ultramarines describe themselves as the greatest chapter? .

Why do you doubt the Imperial Fist or Raven Guard would do that? Even disregarding the 5th Edition book, the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex by Haines and NcNeill, as shown before to see that, quote: "Of the First Founding Chapters, or Primogenitor Chapters as they are sometimes known, the most famous are the Ultramarines of Macragge, the Chapter of the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself. The Codex is not enforced - indeed it is debateable whether any force exists that could do so - and there are many Chapters, such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, whose organisation varies from its teaching to a greater or lesser extent. It can be promoted, though, [...] By their reverent obediance to the tenets of the Codex, these Chapters [e.g. Codex Chapter] do honour to their forebears, to Roboute Guilliman, and to the Emperor himself."

I can understand that, if you don't like Ultramarines, you would want to see the chapters you favour more to take a more distanced, critical stance towards the Ultramarines. But that's just not how it is written. Not in 5th, not in 4th, not in 3rd, not in 2nd Edition. Reverent (!) and non-forced odediance is what Imperial Fists and Raven Guard do, and they do so to honor not only their own and the Emperor, but also explicilty to honour Guilliman. It's not Ward's fault. Its just the way it has always been.


Also, again, I dare anyone compare the "non-Ultramarines" contents in the 4th Edition book (about 6 to 8 pages, including "hobby-section"; hell, even the army list has Ultramarine-icons on every single page and every single artwork) to the "non-Ultramarines" contents in the 5th Edition book (30 pages or more easily), as well as for the first time since 3rd Edition a completely "neutral" army list with generic "Sternguard" and "Honour Guard" instead of explicitly UM-named "Tyranid War Veterans" or "Calgar Honour Guard". 5th Edition is the most "non-Ultramarine"-friendy generic Space Marine Codex ever written.

Because I rationalize something that looks like a bad piece of propaganda, but then again, people also follow the bible or some other religious book word for word (not recommended). Also you stated they ain't arrogant, what about the name? The part that they pout in that RPG about Space Marines unless put in charge? That for me speaks volumes about their arrogance.

For me, everything seems to be written by an Ultramarine scribe, punctum finale. For you Gree, it's from a neutral guy for reasons I can't fathom. We will never even come close to respect eachother's opinion on that subject.

Beaviz81 wrote:Because I rationalize something that looks like a bad piece of propaganda, but then again, people also follow the bible or some other religious book word for word (not recommended).
.

There is a difference between a holy text and a wargaming sourcebook intended to introduce players to the fictional history and the fundamental character of the faction they choose to play in.

Beaviz81 wrote: Also you stated they ain't arrogant, what about the name? .

A pun based on their armor color. Rogue Trader had all sorts of stuff like that.

Beaviz81 wrote: The part that they pout in that RPG about Space Marines unless put in charge? That for me speaks volumes about their arrogance.

You realize they state that only insane Ultramarines do that right? And that’s not a character element of normal members of the chapter?

Beaviz81 wrote:
For me, everything seems to be written by an Ultramarine scribe, punctum finale. For you Gree, it's from a neutral guy for reasons I can't fathom. We will never even come close to respect eachother's opinion on that subject.

Well actually much of what I’m taking is from the Second Edition Ultramarine Codex, written by Jervis Johnson and Rick Priestley. You do know who those guys are right? Priestly pretty much invented 40k and Johnson used to run GW IP back in the day. Heck, one of the cowriters if the current GW head of IP.

Zweischneid wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:With the latest Space Marine Codex, and the omniscient being Matt Ward, then you know it's extremely heavily slanted towards the Ultramarines no matter what's stated in the past. The Space Marine Codex sure as hell ain't written from a neutral standpoint as I doubt the Imperial Fists f.ex. would describe the Ultramarines in such extremely flattering terms. Or how about the Raven Guard? And why shouldn't the Ultramarines describe themselves as the greatest chapter? .

Why do you doubt the Imperial Fist or Raven Guard would do that? Even disregarding the 5th Edition book, the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex by Haines and NcNeill, as shown before to see that, quote: "Of the First Founding Chapters, or Primogenitor Chapters as they are sometimes known, the most famous are the Ultramarines of Macragge, the Chapter of the Primarch Roboute Guilliman himself. The Codex is not enforced - indeed it is debateable whether any force exists that could do so - and there are many Chapters, such as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves, whose organisation varies from its teaching to a greater or lesser extent. It can be promoted, though, [...] By their reverent obediance to the tenets of the Codex, these Chapters [e.g. Codex Chapter] do honour to their forebears, to Roboute Guilliman, and to the Emperor himself."

I can understand that, if you don't like Ultramarines, you would want to see the chapters you favour more to take a more distanced, critical stance towards the Ultramarines. But that's just not how it is written. Not in 5th, not in 4th, not in 3rd, not in 2nd Edition. Reverent (!) and non-forced odediance is what Imperial Fists and Raven Guard do, and they do so to honor not only their own and the Emperor, but also explicilty to honour Guilliman. It's not Ward's fault. Its just the way it has always been.

That RG called RD a rebel, and the Imperial Navy actually fired at him while RG was serving a High Lord would likely not get the Imperial Fists to happy about the Ultramarines. Sure they are allies, but I somehow doubt their friendship. Just try to ask anyone, if they are great friends with a guy who has directly or indirectly coerced you. You already know the answer.

Beaviz81 wrote:
That RG called RD a rebel, and the Imperial Navy actually fired at him while RG was serving a High Lord would likely not get the Imperial Fists to happy about the Ultramarines. Sure they are allies, but I somehow doubt their friendship. Just try to ask anyone, if they are great friends with a guy who has directly or indirectly coerced you. You already know the answer.

Two guys 10.000 years ago had a disagreement. For 10.000 years of 10.000.000 battles 10.000.000.000 of Fists and Ultarmarines have been loyals allies and brothers in arms. Noone's gonna give a feth about what the Primarchs did 10.000 years ago. Most likely, noone even knows they had disagreements because.... wait for it.. it is known to the reader by an omniscient narrator: not in-universe where Primarchs are likely fairly distant, idolized "gods" (in the non-worshiping way of course).

How much do you know about a quarral of two army leaders over 10.000 years ago? Before even ancient Eqypt or Rome was even remotely conceived of? Hell, you don't even need as much time. Look at how much American's for example rever their "founding fathers". Does it matter that Hamilton and Jefferson couldn't stand each other? It doesn't matter one bit. And that's less than an average Space Marines lifetime ago.

Oh go on Gree tell me the difference between holy text and wargaming sourcebook delivered to you by the Ultramarines themselves.

No it's an actual rule. The Ultramarine must be in charge or you loose cohesion-points.

Gree mark the words: ULTRAMARINE CODEX. That's Ultramarine Codex, it's how they view themselves. This is kind of unbelievable. So that settles it, it's an Ultramarine scribe.

Beaviz81 wrote:
That RG called RD a rebel,.

Which he was, the High Lords were decreeing a change with the Codex Astartes and Rogal Dorn was rebelling against that.

Beaviz81 wrote:
and the Imperial Navy actually fired at him while RG was serving a High Lord would likely not get the Imperial Fists to happy about the Ultramarines. Sure they are allies, but I somehow doubt their friendship. Just try to ask anyone, if they are great friends with a guy who has directly or indirectly coerced you. You already know the answer.

Maybe because the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists had spent the years of the Scouring fighting side by side against the Iron Warriors? Maybe because Guilliman had pleaded with Dorn not to enter the Iron Cage trap alone, and in the end came to relieve him? Maybe because Dorn is one of four Primarchs who had been honored with a statue next to Guilliman's in the Ultramarines' Hall of Honour?

Oh read about the SW and DA Zweuichnech (couldn't you choose a nick more easy to spell?). They bicker as wolves and lions do today (the rare occasions they meet) I honestly doubt the unforgiving Imperial Fists like the Ultramarines much at all. They are allies, not friends.

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh go on Gree tell me the difference between holy text and wargaming sourcebook delivered to you by the Ultramarines themselves.

A bible is a book of religious significance. The Space Marine Codex is a wargaming document written up by some British guys twenty years ago, then another British guy choose to reprint much of it just a few years back. It’s a fictional history about toy soldiers intended to tell us the basic history and character of a chapter.

Beaviz81 wrote:
No it's an actual rule. The Ultramarine must be in charge or you loose cohesion-points.

Rules are inrelvant. Fluff is the only thing that matters.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Gree mark the words: ULTRAMARINE CODEX. That's Ultramarine Codex, it's how they view themselves. This is kind of unbelievable. So that settles it, it's an Ultramarine scribe.

No, nowhere in the Codex does it say that it’s how they view themselves. It is simply a sourcebook describing the fundamental character and history of the chapter. Codices don’t tend to be written in-universe unless it’s by specific snippets. Otherwise the Dark Angels and Black Templar codices would not contain much.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh read about the SW and DA Zweuichnech (couldn't you choose a nick more easy to spell?). They bicker as wolves and lions do today (the rare occasions they meet) I honestly doubt the unforgiving Imperial Fists like the Ultramarines much at all. They are allies, not friends.

Which is why Dorn has a statue next to Guilliman in Ultramar and the Fists study the Codex as close as the Ultramarines do right?

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh read about the SW and DA Zweuichnech (couldn't you choose a nick more easy to spell?). They bicker as wolves and lions do today (the rare occasions they meet) I honestly doubt the unforgiving Imperial Fists like the Ultramarines much at all. They are allies, not friends.

It's not what the Codexes say. The Codexes say, quote again, the Imperial Fist are all up in "reverent obedience" to the Codex and passionatly honour Guilliman. You may not like it. You might think it would have made more sense otherwise. But its just not the way it is. It is like saying I woulda have preferred if Han Solo would have dumbed Luke Skywalker and went his own ways. Nice. But it's not how the story was told.

It's practical to dismiss as you see fit Gree, ain't it? The Ultramarines must be in charge or everything goes to hell. Arrogance much?

And note the basic history of a chapter, that's not neutral, that's biased already. Ultramarines Codex already.

Ultramarines Codex already. My God, they had that back in their own Codex, and they view themselves that way.

I didn't dispute the Fists and Ultramarines to be allies nor the Fists adherence to the Codex Astartes, I just don't think the Fists would regard the Ultramarines that high. They are honored allies, but I doubt the Fists really like the Ultramarines much, as for the statue Zweihander. Well standing next to each other proves you can stand each other, but not that they were hetrosexual lifepartners. In the movie Ultramarines (which amount of canon varies for me) Nidon was very happy waving his bolter at the face of the Ultramarines.

Beaviz81 wrote:It's practical to dismiss as you see fit Gree, ain't it? The Ultramarines must be in charge or everything goes to hell. Arrogance much?

Where did I say they must be in charge?

Beaviz81 wrote:
And note the basic history of a chapter, that's not neutral, that's biased already. Ultramarines Codex already.

How is explaining the history of something biased? I guess in order for something to be non-biased for you there must be no history or fluff at all.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Ultramarines Codex already. My God, they had that back in their own Codex, and they view themselves that way.

Do you have any actual proof that they view themselves that way or are you making stuff up again? Codex Dark Angels is probably not how the Dark Angels view themselves either, as most of the Dark Angels is kept under wraps about the Fallen and their history is shrouded in secrets and lies. Yet the Dark Angel Codex clearly explains that.

Beaviz81 wrote:
I didn't dispute the Fists and Ultramarines to be allies, I just don't think the Fists would regard the Ultramarines that high. They are honored allies, but I doubt the Fists really like the Ultramarines much, as for the statue Zweihander. Well standing next to each other proves you can stand each other.

I’m not sure why the Fists would not like the Ultramarines. Dorn and Guilliman had a briefly disagreement, but in Dorn’s own article once that was resolved he was noted to have wholeheartedly embraced the Codex Astartes. Apart from those issues, Rogal Dorn and Roboute Guilliman probably got along pretty well, and only had a brief disagreement over the division of the Legions. They had a very similar world view, and both valued duty and honourable conduct. In the Hall of Honour on Macragge there are the statues of four other Primarchs next to the statue of Guilliman, and one of them is of Rogal Dorn. In the Iron Cage incident, Guilliman intervened because he was not prepared to sacrifice Dorn for the chance to get Perturabo.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Well standing next to each other proves you can stand each other.

They have only four other statues standing next to Guilliman in their Hall of Honor. Something tells me they don’t just put anybody in there.

Beaviz81 wrote:
In the movie Ultramarines (which amount of canon varies for me) Nidon was very happy waving his bolter at the face of the Ultramarines.

Perhaps that might have to do with his entire company being slaughtered?

Beaviz81 wrote:
Gree mark the words: ULTRAMARINE CODEX. That's Ultramarine Codex, it's how they view themselves. This is kind of unbelievable. So that settles it, it's an Ultramarine scribe.

By that same logic, orks are damned literate and capable of writing some very detailed history, if Codex: Orks is anything to go by.

Oh how mature, I'm making up stuff. Of course I must be making up stuff when it was the freaking Ultramarine Codex, Ultramarine Codex, their own Codex. Of course that's me making up stuff. It's how they view themselves. Pure and simple.

The problem with all history is that it's completely biased. You managed to contradict yourself there Gree.

The Ultramarines was indirectly responsible for the Iron Cage. I'm sure the Fists really love the Ultramarines after everything.

Still the penalty is there unless the guy is put in charge. Arrogance.

I would rather have put it to Nidon protecting that precious book of his, but okay. Well anyway he was rather keen to aim his bolter at the Ultramarines.


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Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Beaviz81 wrote:
Gree mark the words: ULTRAMARINE CODEX. That's Ultramarine Codex, it's how they view themselves. This is kind of unbelievable. So that settles it, it's an Ultramarine scribe.

By that same logic, orks are damned literate and capable of writing some very detailed history, if Codex: Orks is anything to go by.

Yarrick can translate for you.

Beaviz81 wrote:Oh how mature, I'm making up stuff. Of course I must be making up stuff when it was the freaking Ultramarine Codex, Ultramarine Codex, their own Codex. Of course that's me making up stuff. It's how they view themselves. Pure and simple.

Well when we having nothing actually saying that then you are just making stuff up since it did not exist before.

Certainly if the Ultramarines Codex is how they view themselves, and not something simply describing the Chapter, then everybody in the Dark Angels Chapter must know about the Fallen instead of just the Inner Circle and the Orks are surprisingly literate and articulate.

Beaviz81 wrote:
The problem with all history is that it's completely biased. You managed to contradict yourself there Gree.

How is it completely biased?

Beaviz81 wrote:
The Ultramarines was indirectly responsible for the Iron Cage. I'm sure the Fists really love the Ultramarines after everything.

Well considering that Guilliman begged Dorn to let him aid him during the attack and Dorn refused. (IA IW) I would say that’s not the case. In any case Dorn willingly going into the Iron Cage was his decision.
But I’m sure any rational human being would be grateful to somebody who saved their life.

I think Guilliman probably got on very well with Rogal Dorn. They had similar ideas of duty and conduct. There was that incident where Dorn had not wanted to divide his Legion, but by the time of the 2nd Founding he had ultimately agreed to do so, and the Imperial Fists Chapter and Crimson Fists Chapter had been made into very Codex adherent Chapters. Aside from that incident, the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines had cooperated closely during the scouring, fighting a ten years crusade against the Iron Warriors, and the Ultramarines coming to bail out the Imperial Fists in the Iron Cage incident. And of course there is the fact that Dorn is one of four Primarchs who had been given a statue next to Guilliman's in the Ultramarines' fortress monastery.

People often think that Dorn hated Guilliman because of the introduction of the Codex Astartes and their disagreement about it, but I think that was just a disagreement between friends, being heated due to the troubling times they were in. They seemed to get along well before and after that disagreement.

Beaviz81 wrote:
Still the penalty is there unless the guy is put in charge. Arrogance.

Again, rules don’t matter. But I’m not quite sure it’s arrogance. The Deathwatch book notes that Ultramarines often make the best leaders and logically without them the team would not be as good without an Ultramarine leading them.

Beaviz81 wrote:
I would rather have put it to Nidon protecting that precious book of his, but okay. Well anyway he was rather keen to aim his bolter at the Ultramarines.

Considering he was a combat veteran just out of a bloody warzone that’s to be expected.

<thread terminated; ridiculously heated>

It's amazing how worked up some of you are getting about the fictional stories that accompany this game. Here's a tip: if you find yourself pounding angrily at the keyboard in response to another poster, you are TOO INVESTED IN THE DISCUSSION, and should walk away for a while.