Hi.

In general, my question is how important most of you think it is that an army painted, lets say, Green and white (Your own chapter) played as vanilla marines. Coult if I add 5 thunderwolf cavallry be played as spacewolves?
Or if I have lets say, a model very similar as Astaroth the grim, could be played as Blood angels army. If you keep assualt marines sepparated from your priests of sanguine.

You see, I've been playing this game for quite some time. BUT, Dont have the money or time to spare to build 2000 pts of chaos, GK's SW's or blood angels. But I would very much like to play all different chapters.

Do you understand what I write or is my swedish thoughts weird to you?

Just a thought, Since we in sweden, when we have tournaments are quite overseeing with such things. We, too 95% allow that sort of armies if they are convincing enough.
But I've heard, since I've never been to the states or UK for tournaments, that the lot outside the north is quite conservative too those kind of "rules".

No problem at all, I play my exorcists as Vanila or Blood angels and even Space Wolves depending on how I feel. As long as the model matches the profile nobody should care about the paint scheme.

My Brothers of Caliban army is specifically made to be played as any "marine" codex I feel like.

As long as your models are WYSIWYG nobody has any legitimate reason to complain.

Fine, as long as the weapons are correct, and it's fairly obvious what is what.

Thats nice to hear. My thoughts is that, as long as your melta dude carries a meltagun and not a missile launchers, I'd say it's a go.

The only SM army you can't easy get WYSIWYG with, are GK do to there weapon loadout.

Tbh, i don't think WYSIWYG is all that important unless its completely ridiculous like, proxying a land raider for a razorback kinda thing.

I have a rhino, not a tank, an actualy small plastic rhino from a kinder egg that serves as a meltagunner until i either A) Get some meltaguns and glue them onto my spare guys (Darn GW not giving me any special weapons!) or B) Get some meltaguns, and glue them to the rhino's shoulder - or take the muzzle off and glue it to his mouth!

At least its a memorable thing when someone says that a small rhino has a meltagun, its quite funny.

I think that using a toy Rhinoceros as a proxy for a 40K Rhino would be the epitome of completely ridiculous.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think that using a toy Rhinoceros as a proxy for a 40K Rhino would be the epitome of completely ridiculous.

Or genius It's not really a proxy-it's a creative spin. I wonder where they'd put the storm bolter...and man, I'd rather leave a side hatch than the rear one...

Yarrick The Necron wrote:Tbh, i don't think WYSIWYG is all that important unless its completely ridiculous like, proxying a land raider for a razorback kinda thing.

I have a rhino, not a tank, an actualy small plastic rhino from a kinder egg that serves as a meltagunner until i either A) Get some meltaguns and glue them onto my spare guys (Darn GW not giving me any special weapons!) or B) Get some meltaguns, and glue them to the rhino's shoulder - or take the muzzle off and glue it to his mouth!

At least its a memorable thing when someone says that a small rhino has a meltagun, its quite funny.

It is very important. You have to know what your opponent has so you can make the right calls when you play. I charged a unit once, and the kid announces to me at that point that all guys carrying power swords that are painted red are power fists. Unless it was also painted silver, or if the guy had a red stripe. So of course, I had already charged in, and put my no-invuln character in BTB with power fist guy.

Bad form.

All count's as should be uniform and easy to tell.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think that using a toy Rhinoceros as a proxy for a 40K Rhino would be the epitome of completely ridiculous.

If they were the right size, painted and had little saddles, I would shake that man's hand and tell him he was made of awesome!

General rule for me is if it makes since (regular Stormbolter termies have SS/TH instead) and is army wide (previous case is true for all terminator squads), I will except it.

The only non-WYSIWIG I do is not put adrenal glands/toxin sacs on my Nids. They simply look dumb on the outside. I just make sure it's easy to know which unit has what (like, all my Hormagaunts run with adrenal glands, and outside of guants, I have no 'repeat' units that have options, so there's no chance of getting mixed up between say, two Warrior squads equipped the same with different upgrades).

Haven't had complaints.

At my club they let me use my Orks as Space Marines. The Shoota Boys are tacticals, the Stormboys are assaults, and the Loota Boys count as Heavy Weapons. I don't like spending money either and this way I can use my models as everything! I'm going to try them as Dark Eldar next.

-Loki- wrote:The only non-WYSIWIG I do is not put adrenal glands/toxin sacs on my Nids. They simply look dumb on the outside. I just make sure it's easy to know which unit has what (like, all my Hormagaunts run with adrenal glands, and outside of guants, I have no 'repeat' units that have options, so there's no chance of getting mixed up between say, two Warrior squads equipped the same with different upgrades).

Haven't had complaints.

Here here. I don't like putting many of the biomorph options on the 'nids. I did put the large adrenal gland on the front of the Carnifex where the upper and lower torsos/legs come together. It's there, but it's hardly noticable. I'd do the barbed hook things coming out of the chests, but probably not the toxin sacs....less they were positioned in the testicular region, but that's just vulgar!

Were you really expecting someone to come in here and say they weren't A-OK with you using green and white marines with thunderwolf cav running around as space wolves? Did you think someone was going to demand you paint them Space Wolf Grey?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think that using a toy Rhinoceros as a proxy for a 40K Rhino would be the epitome of completely ridiculous.

I've always thought it looks more like a puma.

MikeMcSomething wrote:Were you really expecting someone to come in here and say they weren't A-OK with you using green and white marines with thunderwolf cav running around as space wolves? Did you think someone was going to demand you paint them Space Wolf Grey?

No he is more worried some ass will make a fuss. That he runs BA with death company one week and SW with thunderwolfs the next, while the rest of the army are the same models, used for both armys.

The only way it would annoy me is if it was done before each game absed on opponents... I.E. "Oh, you're playing Tyranids? Then I'll field as [Whatever SM Chapter is currently best against Tyranids]"

Noir wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:Were you really expecting someone to come in here and say they weren't A-OK with you using green and white marines with thunderwolf cav running around as space wolves? Did you think someone was going to demand you paint them Space Wolf Grey?

No he is more worried some ass will make a fuss. That he runs BA with death company one week and SW with thunderwolfs the next, while the rest of the army are the same models, used for both armys.

As long as the codex specific units are correct, there is no issue. If you claim your bikers are bikers one week and then proxied as TWC next week, expect issues.

I agree with alot of the aforementioned notions in regard to WYSIWYG rules.

The color scheme is really irrelevant as long as the weapons are correct for the Chapter you're playing.

Tournaments are a bit more strict, but again color scheme doesn't matter, just as long as the weapons/options are correct for the army you're claiming they are.

As for the "counts as" stuff, that's usually left to casual games. Like proxying an entire army of SM for Eldar, that's really up to your opponent. He's well within his right to refuse and you should make it clear from the start which squad has what if he/she agrees to the game.

This has been my experience and I agree with KGatch113, I don't like being caught off guard with a surprise like that because it feels like your opponent is making up rules to suit himself on the fly and that's an instant-game over in my book after the first/second "well actually they have <insert OP option> wargear on them so..., etc", just not good sportsmanship.

Other than that, enjoy your SM <BA, SW, Smurfs, etc>.

As long as their equipment is right, I don't care what color they are. In point of fact, I have a couple of Blood Angels models and a Space Wolf serving in my Salamanders company. (Brother Tycho looks so much better in green than in gold...)

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think that using a toy Rhinoceros as a proxy for a 40K Rhino would be the epitome of completely ridiculous.

It's no more ridiculous than saying it's a Meltagun marine?

I run my BA, painted as BA as vanilla marines and SW before. As long as they have the right equipment I don't see an issue. Counts-as should always be cleared with your opponent prior to the game.

biccat wrote:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think that using a toy Rhinoceros as a proxy for a 40K Rhino would be the epitome of completely ridiculous.

I've always thought it looks more like a puma.

What's a puma? You made that up

I occaisonally play my raven guard as blood angels. My vanguard veterans have bolt pistols and power weapons (sanguinary guard with glaive encarmines and the bolter things), most of the rest of my army is the same.

shrike wrote:I occaisonally play my raven guard as blood angels. My vanguard veterans have bolt pistols and power weapons (sanguinary guard with glaive encarmines and the bolter things), most of the rest of my army is the same.

Sounds confusing to me especially in a codex with death company, assault marines and you can take vanguard veterans in a BA army. That is by no means WYSIWYG and is a proxy. Sanguary guard have unique rules and wargear which need to be represented opposed to "see these guys with jetpacks count as every other unit which can possibly have jetpacks"

I have used my Black Templars as codex marines because I needed a change of pace. Every weapon was WYSIWYG, though.

nkelsch wrote:

shrike wrote:I occaisonally play my raven guard as blood angels. My vanguard veterans have bolt pistols and power weapons (sanguinary guard with glaive encarmines and the bolter things), most of the rest of my army is the same.

Sounds confusing to me especially in a codex with death company, assault marines and you can take vanguard veterans in a BA army. That is by no means WYSIWYG and is a proxy. Sanguary guard have unique rules and wargear which need to be represented opposed to "see these guys with jetpacks count as every other unit which can possibly have jetpacks"

I only use models which are in C:SM, like terminators, librarians, tactical marines, and my "vanguard veterans" are basically an honour guard for corax, all wearing hooded robes, with heresy-era jump packs, maces and wrist-mounted bolt pistols, so in practically every aspect they fit. The unique wargear is just a two-handed power weapon (AFAIK no extra bonus to that), which is master crafted (I would expect as much for guardians of a primarch) and an AP4 bolt pistol with 2 shots, again, they could easily be well crafted bolt pistols. Decent of angels can easily represent raven guard (masters of the jump pack) and the red thirst I'm counting as the small probability that the clones Corax made at the time could become defective, while fearless could simply represent thier unwillingness to fail at protecting thier primarch under any circumstances.

I think swapping marine armies is fine, as long as it's fairly WYSIWYG (as demostrated above) and you tell the opponent beforehand, including any
counts-as units/models as demonstrated above.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think that using a toy Rhinoceros as a proxy for a 40K Rhino would be the epitome of completely ridiculous.

Reread my post, i use him as a meltagunner, not an actual tank!


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KGatch113 wrote:

Yarrick The Necron wrote:Tbh, i don't think WYSIWYG is all that important unless its completely ridiculous like, proxying a land raider for a razorback kinda thing.

I have a rhino, not a tank, an actualy small plastic rhino from a kinder egg that serves as a meltagunner until i either A) Get some meltaguns and glue them onto my spare guys (Darn GW not giving me any special weapons!) or B) Get some meltaguns, and glue them to the rhino's shoulder - or take the muzzle off and glue it to his mouth!

At least its a memorable thing when someone says that a small rhino has a meltagun, its quite funny.

It is very important. You have to know what your opponent has so you can make the right calls when you play. I charged a unit once, and the kid announces to me at that point that all guys carrying power swords that are painted red are power fists. Unless it was also painted silver, or if the guy had a red stripe. So of course, I had already charged in, and put my no-invuln character in BTB with power fist guy.

Bad form.

All count's as should be uniform and easy to tell.

I suppose in that case, its pretty darn demoralising but the way you've written it, it just sounds like you've got a bad opponent who hasnt told you before hand what things aren't WYSIWYG.

You're right I misread your post. So let me rephrase my response to using a rhinoceros as a melta gunner is the epitome of completely ridiculous (maybe even beyond that if possible).

Yarrick The Necron wrote:I suppose in that case, its pretty darn demoralising but the way you've written it, it just sounds like you've got a bad opponent who hasnt told you before hand what things aren't WYSIWYG.

I'd say that it wasn't nearly as simple as that. You can explain everything at the start of the game, but if, in the middle of the game, I look across the board and see a Tactical Squad, and then have to correct myself and think 'Oh, wait, that's actually some Grey Hunters', then that's going to be quite annoying for a whole game. Even more so if it's an Assault Squad and, say, Skyclaws - which have different stat lines.

In a tournament, I'd say this has the potential to affect the game. One of the players has to constantly remember what the models are. The other doesn't. The fact that the models are so similar is WHY it's confusing.

Cryb wrote:We, too 95% allow that sort of armies if they are convincing enough.

This is generally the rule here as well, and I agree with it. The problem is the definition of 'convincing enough'. Of course, you can paint the models whatever colour you like, or model them however you want.

But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same. In a tournament environment, unless I can look across the table and instantly recognise the army as Space Wolves and NOT Space Marines, then it isn't 'convincing enough', in my opinion.

ArbitorIan wrote:But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same.

They use the same exact models, especially if they are run by a player with older armies.

skyth wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same.

They use the same exact models, especially if they are run by a player with older armies.

You'd have to be using RT-era Marines for that to be the case. Ever since 2ed Space Wolves have had their own models. I have a ton of the 2ed Metal Space Wolves and Long Fangs - they certainly don't look the same as regular marines of the time. Currently, the Space Wolves set doesn't contain a single component that is 'the same' as a regular Tactical Squad set - even the legs and torsos are different.

I'm not saying I require all that to be used anyway. Just that, when looking at the squad, it's obvious from the models that it's SW and not SM. A hairy sergeant, or a feral look, or something more creative than that. Just, enough distinction so as to not confuse them for regular marines.

I don't have an issue with it as long as it's not proxying a popcan for a drop pod. Or plasma guns are actually plasma cannons, or melta guns. (which is costing me a lot of money, since i was dumb and threw out old sprues or something, and now have no melta guns.)

If it's a old metal model, say, the Sternguard, that come with a powerfist, I'll tell my opponent straight up that there is no powerfist. I'll also share my army list with them.

EDIT: I don't really care if the opponent is using a different type of Marine, as long as they make it clear. The only exception is Grey Knights, since they have enough distinctive wargear for it to really matter.

ArbitorIan wrote:

skyth wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same.

They use the same exact models, especially if they are run by a player with older armies.

You'd have to be using RT-era Marines for that to be the case. Ever since 2ed Space Wolves have had their own models. I have a ton of the 2ed Metal Space Wolves and Long Fangs - they certainly don't look the same as regular marines of the time. Currently, the Space Wolves set doesn't contain a single component that is 'the same' as a regular Tactical Squad set - even the legs and torsos are different.

I'm not saying I require all that to be used anyway. Just that, when looking at the squad, it's obvious from the models that it's SW and not SM. A hairy sergeant, or a feral look, or something more creative than that. Just, enough distinction so as to not confuse them for regular marines.

I think just knowing that you are playing a SW army as opposed to a C:SM army is enough as long as the models are armed properly. For Grey Hunters: does each model have some combination of bolter/bolt pistol/CCW? Are there one or two assault weapons, up to one plasma pistol, no heavy weapon, and up to one PW/PF? Then it is a WYSIWYG Grey Hunter Squad.

I think by saying that the models need to have some extra SW bits in order to be WYSIWYG SWs is going a little overboard, especially coming from somebody who proxies old Squat models for IG, and Chimera hulls as Lemun Russ hulls in said army. I love your Squats BTW, but I think you are trying to apply double standards here.

I think thats a bit harsh, since you are hardly going to confuse a squat force with an established codex army list; since it doesn't exist.

If you are in a situation where you are facing Squats it's pretty clear it's something else, but it's also pretty exceptional to face this sort of army.

Where's that dammed Land Train anyway?

ArbitorIan wrote:

skyth wrote:

ArbitorIan wrote:But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same.

They use the same exact models, especially if they are run by a player with older armies.

You'd have to be using RT-era Marines for that to be the case. Ever since 2ed Space Wolves have had their own models.

Metal models and they came out after the regular marines. I started in 2nd edition with Wolves but I wanted to use the plastics that came in the starter box and the plastics were cheaper/easier to use. So the majority of my models were plastic tactical marines.

I've since repainted them to a different color and used the mixed force to represent any codex I want. However, anyone who would complain about 'being confused' about which codex you are using is someone who I wouldn't want to play against. It just shows that they are more interested in controlling the other person rather than just playing and having fun.

As long as you aren't using friggin' Mountain Dew cans as Drop Pods and cardboard boxes as Land Raiders, I could care less.

I've seen so many terrible proxies in my day that I'm pretty lenient. Or maybe just desensitized.

I don't see what all this WYSIWYG nonsense is all about. I just don't get it.

ArbitorIan wrote:

Yarrick The Necron wrote:I suppose in that case, its pretty darn demoralising but the way you've written it, it just sounds like you've got a bad opponent who hasnt told you before hand what things aren't WYSIWYG.

I'd say that it wasn't nearly as simple as that. You can explain everything at the start of the game, but if, in the middle of the game, I look across the board and see a Tactical Squad, and then have to correct myself and think 'Oh, wait, that's actually some Grey Hunters', then that's going to be quite annoying for a whole game. Even more so if it's an Assault Squad and, say, Skyclaws - which have different stat lines.

In a tournament, I'd say this has the potential to affect the game. One of the players has to constantly remember what the models are. The other doesn't. The fact that the models are so similar is WHY it's confusing.

Cryb wrote:We, too 95% allow that sort of armies if they are convincing enough.

This is generally the rule here as well, and I agree with it. The problem is the definition of 'convincing enough'. Of course, you can paint the models whatever colour you like, or model them however you want.

But, Space Wolves and Space Marines do not look the same. In a tournament environment, unless I can look across the table and instantly recognise the army as Space Wolves and NOT Space Marines, then it isn't 'convincing enough', in my opinion.

Do grey hunters wear power armor and have boltguns? Yes. Does that model wear power armor and a boltgun? Yes. Seems WYSIWYG to me. Do skyclaws wear power armor and have x weapons? Yes. Does that model wear power armor and have x weapons? Yes. Its WYSIWYG. I could use space marines as warrior acyolates in power armor with boltguns and its WYSIWYG. It covers wargear, not stats.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: It covers wargear, not stats.

not true. You can't give a grot a pk and call him a warboss.

When a codex has 4 units with distinct rules which all have jet packs and power armor, counting a single mode as any of the 4 unitson a whim is confusing. Sometimes unit special rules or wound profiles or gear which has an added effect, opponents have reasonable expectations those be modeled especially when it is capable of being modeled as GW releases ways to model those units. "I don't wanna!" doesn't always fly.

The issue is people make up bs examples where they are supposedly wysiwyg and then in real life we see a chain sword jet pack unit counting as wysiwyg for regular ccw, power weapons, power fists, and glaives, and the person claims all the units are wysiwyg because the model has power armor and a jet pack.

If the models are actually wysiwyg, people have no issues... The issue is people are pretty loose with their personal definitions of wysiwyg and half the time they are actually using proxies.

skyth wrote:However, anyone who would complain about 'being confused' about which codex you are using is someone who I wouldn't want to play against. It just shows that they are more interested in controlling the other person rather than just playing and having fun.

You can look at it the other way around, though.

Someone who just recycles models could be someone I don't want to play against since they don't care about fun and just want to power game with the same models.

I was at 40k night one week and a dude had Ultramarines. Blue and white, gold trim, decals and the lot. Turns out they were Chaos marines - he had an unpainted Daemon Prince behind a ruin I had missed. I asked him if they represented Alpha Legion disguising themselves - to which he replied nope, just unwilling to buy more models.

The next week I came back and he was playing with the same guys - except now he had a pair of Baal Predators. I asked him if they were Blood Angels now, to which he said yes.

I don't want to sound like a hobby snob but it takes away from the experience for me when my opponent is unwilling to get his army built and painted in a reasonable manner. I don't mind a little proxying here and there to try new things, but to come out to 40k night with Ultramairines with Baal Predators or being led by a Daemon Prince makes it hard for me suspend my disbelief.

skyth wrote:However, anyone who would complain about 'being confused' about which codex you are using is someone who I wouldn't want to play against. It just shows that they are more interested in controlling the other person rather than just playing and having fun.

You're ignoring the corollary - the equivalent of having to consult a conversion table to remember what each unit you're facing "actually" is can easily suck a lot of the fun out of things for your opponent. Do you honestly think that "I demand you let me run these generic SM models as any power armored codex I please" is somehow not controlling, while "I require that I able to tell at a glance what it is I'm facing" is? To suggest that someone who wants a degree of clarity in a game is controlling and unable to have fun says more unpleasant things about you than your hypothetical opponent. Nearly any position on any issue can be made more or less offensive by the demeanor of its holder, of course, but that's the bulk of the issue, here.

You're well within your rights to say "I want to run these models as whatever army/unit I see fit" (regardless of whether that means SW vs. BA or SW vs. Orks) and to be selective about your opponents (regardless of your particular criteria), but the picture you paint of those who feel differently is entirely unfair (and rather offensive, to boot).

[edit:] Semi-ninja'd! That'll teach me to walk away from the computer and post a response upon returning without refreshing the thread, first. Clarence argues at the same comment from a different angle, though, so I'll leave my original comment unchanged.

I'm with Clarence, there is a limit to how much you can proxy I'd reckon, if only for the visual appeal.

So, colors matter on a SM? Does that mean that I'm proxying when I use my black and purple marines as Vanilla Marines or is it only proxying if I want to use a varient chapter like BA or BT?
All that matters to me is that my opponent's models have the correct type of armor and the correct weapon. The color of the model doesn't make a plasma gun do anything different (with the exception of red vehicles and orks/goblins).

Regarding color vs. codex, Leo_the_Rat, I'd say "sometimes." Custom chapters don't come with the same implications as established chapters with their own codices do.

Running gray armored, pelt-strewn, mustached marine models as BA is likely to cause far more confusion than black and purple vanilla models would, as the former are justifiably assumed to be SW. The latter might initially be assumed to be vanilla marines based on the lack of codex chapter-specific iconography/accessories, but it's easier to be corrected when you aren't fighting against quite as blatant visual cues, especially if the custom chapter has some visual cues that suggest a similar style to the chapter of the codex in use.

oadie wrote:Regarding color vs. codex, Leo_the_Rat, I'd say "sometimes." Custom chapters don't come with the same implications as established chapters with their own codices do.

Running gray armored, pelt-strewn, mustached marine models as BA is likely to cause far more confusion than black and purple vanilla models would, as the former are justifiably assumed to be SW. The latter might initially be assumed to be vanilla marines based on the lack of codex chapter-specific iconography/accessories, but it's easier to be corrected when you aren't fighting against quite as blatant visual cues, especially if the custom chapter has some visual cues that suggest a similar style to the chapter of the codex in use.

If you have problems remembering that your opponent told you he was playing BAs with his SW models (that are modeled with the correct wargear) then you probably should consider playing a less complex game. It shouldn't be that hard to remember.

Of course it's manageable, helium, especially if you're already familiar with the full range of codices, but it's still something you have to constantly remind yourself of. For those still learning the ropes it may cause added confusion (you can do X to this Y, but remember that this Y is actually a Z, so you need to roll A instead of B, since your rolls are at -1 because Zs have special rule C, but normally you don't do that - an intentionally ponderous example, as the rules often feel extra cumbersome to new players). For those who want impressive, narrative, cinematic battles, it severely hampers the suspension of disbelief.

Being inept isn't the only reason someone might have issues with a counts-as army across the table. In reality, the lines between color schemes, conversions, and counts-as can get blurry, as they all amount to the same thing, essentially, with varying degrees of severity - rectifying the abstract (rules, stats, fluff) with the concrete (models on the table). Varying priorities regarding those elements are just as likely to derail a game as an inability or refusal to bother remembering what is what.

For me, it all comes down to the looks.
I don't care a single damn what rules you use. I don't care about rules. The army has to look nice. And if you simply take Thunderwolves and slap them with green paint, or no paint at all, even using the SW heads and signs in the process without the dignity to at least remove the runes... then it won't look good.
The rules are a sad joke. If the miniatures don't make up for it, there's no point in playing the game.

And yes, I don't play unpainted armies either. You don't have to win a GD, but at least try for the Emperor's sake!

helium42 wrote:

oadie wrote:Regarding color vs. codex, Leo_the_Rat, I'd say "sometimes." Custom chapters don't come with the same implications as established chapters with their own codices do.

Running gray armored, pelt-strewn, mustached marine models as BA is likely to cause far more confusion than black and purple vanilla models would, as the former are justifiably assumed to be SW. The latter might initially be assumed to be vanilla marines based on the lack of codex chapter-specific iconography/accessories, but it's easier to be corrected when you aren't fighting against quite as blatant visual cues, especially if the custom chapter has some visual cues that suggest a similar style to the chapter of the codex in use.

If you have problems remembering that your opponent told you he was playing BAs with his SW models (that are modeled with the correct wargear) then you probably should consider playing a less complex game. It shouldn't be that hard to remember.

I agree with you there helium. For the most part on space marines, theyre all the same. I will concede that it does matter with other armies theyre not interchangeable, like the warboss, and grot, but for space marines you can buy a tactical squad box and know you have models for 6 codexes.

OP~
As long as you have the corresponding models, I think you will be fine. For example, if you have a Thunderwolf Cav model painted green, red, black, etcI do not think anyone is going to be confused by that.

The problem you will run into, is if you regular marines are not marked clearlys, or you are running mixed units of Bolt Pistol / Cc with Bolters like Chaos can do.

No one, at the GT scene will care if your Space Wolves are Red if the models are right. Similiarly, if you want to run a Wolf Priest as a regular Chaplain, and all the rest of the models in the army are standard, no one will care. I'd almost prefer you to have a neutral scheme, if you are going to Codex Flip Flop honestly. As if you plunk down a Space Wolves army and say "look its my Blood Angels" I'll say "yea ok, go for it." But if those same models are a unique scheme I'll probably be happier. That's the old head gamer in me. But 5 minutes into the game, I really won't care as long as I know what stuff is.

EDIT: There is one thing to note. If you really covert / kit out your army to make it unique and personal. I give you a complete pass to play whatever you want as Marines. I have seen some really sweet marine conversations with pre-heresy, custodian armies, etc. As far as i'm concerned, if you kit that stuff out, and drop significant cash, you play that army every day you want I played against a sweet Custodian army which as "Space Wolves" with Custodians as Grey Hunters, Thunder calv, everything fully converted. I ran into him later saying it was Blood Angels. I smiled and played him. Why? Because his army was sweet and he deserves it because of the effort he put in

The time it gets stupid, is when your SM sergeant has a PW and Combi-flamer and Melta Bombs and WYSIWYG says you should model the Melta Bomb on the model. I have been picked up for this at tournaments and docked points.

I did point out that if this level of ridiculousness is the case, any marine not having Grenades modeled on his torso or body shouldn't be allowed Grenades. They said it's standard wargear, but mine was additional so cost points, I also got marked down on sportsmanship for calling this level "Anal-lity" BS. Still bloody stupid, I now have 6 Melta Bombs on mini 5mm bases that I place at the feet of models who have them. (RIDICULOUS!)

Balance wrote:

The only way it would annoy me is if it was done before each game absed on opponents... I.E. "Oh, you're playing Tyranids? Then I'll field as [Whatever SM Chapter is currently best against Tyranids]"




Balance, this is an excellent point. I agree wholeheartedly.

mwnciboo wrote:The time it gets stupid, is when your SM sergeant has a PW and Combi-flamer and Melta Bombs and WYSIWYG says you should model the Melta Bomb on the model. I have been picked up for this at tournaments and docked points.

I did point out that if this level of ridiculousness is the case, any marine not having Grenades modeled on his torso or body shouldn't be allowed Grenades. They said it's standard wargear, but mine was additional so cost points, I also got marked down on sportsmanship for calling this level "Anal-lity" BS. Still bloody stupid, I now have 6 Melta Bombs on mini 5mm bases that I place at the feet of models who have them. (RIDICULOUS!)

Why is it ridiculous? You're supposed to model upgrades. Melta Bombs are upgrades.

Should you not have to model power weapons as well?

I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

If you're sitting there trying to figure out which paladin has XYZ wound-allocation friendly upgrade by stooping over to stare at a 1-inch model that spends most of the time 4 feet from your face instead of asking 'why are those guys carrying?" and just remembering it then you have bigger issues anyway.

MikeMcSomething wrote:I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

Because every squad is armed the same and you never have to remember if squad A had the flamer or the meltagun.

It's not about skill. Your statement saying so is insulting.

I faced off against 1500 points of Grey Knights who were all wearing "Tyranid Suits" once, even though it was a friendly game with guys I've known for years, and was simply to let the chap try out the Codex to see if he wanted to spend the money to collect, I did find it a little irritating remembering that the Warriors were in fact Paladins etc..

Still ripped his face off though...

As for WYSIWYG in general, I try hard to plan my units when I first start collecting an army to make sure they are all modelled correctly, and would like to see the same from my opponent, we all like to try new things though, and as long as there is logic to the substitutions, I'm ok with it.

The easiest solution would be to present a copy of your force list with all the relevant info to your opponent before the game, but I guess we're not all that orgainsed! (Let's face it, if we were, we wouldn't be using Cold One Knights as TWC or whatever!)

rigeld2 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

Because every squad is armed the same and you never have to remember if squad A had the flamer or the meltagun.

It's not about skill. Your statement saying so is insulting.

Look, it's really not difficult, and if you're staring at squad A and squad B, and both are just so horridly modeled that you can't tell who has a flamer or melta, and your contrived game circumstance has somehow led you to a situation where you, say, have to drive a vehicle into one of these squads but not the other one, and you can't remember what your opponent told you the squads were, and you aren't capable of saying ''Hey, just refresh my memory here - WHERE IS THE MELTAGUN?" (a two-second process) then you're either beyond help or pretending that the problem is worse than it really is.

MikeMcSomething wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

Because every squad is armed the same and you never have to remember if squad A had the flamer or the meltagun.

It's not about skill. Your statement saying so is insulting.

Look, it's really not difficult, and if you're staring at squad A and squad B, and both are just so horridly modeled that you can't tell who has a flamer or melta, and your contrived game circumstance has somehow led you to a situation where you, say, have to drive a vehicle into one of these squads but not the other one, and you can't remember what your opponent told you the squads were, and you aren't capable of saying ''Hey, just refresh my memory here - WHERE IS THE MELTAGUN?" (a two-second process) then you're either beyond help or pretending that the problem is worse than it really is.

Or, you forget the fact that either one has a meltagun because Squad A's melta gunner is jut a different colored marine, move your vehicle over and get melta'ed.

It's a courtesy to your opponent.

oadie wrote: Do you honestly think that "I demand you let me run these generic SM models as any power armored codex I please" is somehow not controlling, while "I require that I able to tell at a glance what it is I'm facing" is? .

Yes. Allowing someone to use models that have the appropriate wargear modeled is not controlling. However, insisting that they are painted correctly to allow your opponent to use them is. Calling someone names and insulting them for using Marines from a Tactical Squad box as opposed to a Grey Hunter box is controlling and the sign of being an asshat. The big question is 'are you trying to control the other person's army?'.

With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

rigeld2 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:I'll address the elephant in the room here - skilled players don't typically spend their time worrying about 100% wysiwyg because squad loadouts are not complicated.

Because every squad is armed the same and you never have to remember if squad A had the flamer or the meltagun.

It's not about skill. Your statement saying so is insulting.

Look, it's really not difficult, and if you're staring at squad A and squad B, and both are just so horridly modeled that you can't tell who has a flamer or melta, and your contrived game circumstance has somehow led you to a situation where you, say, have to drive a vehicle into one of these squads but not the other one, and you can't remember what your opponent told you the squads were, and you aren't capable of saying ''Hey, just refresh my memory here - WHERE IS THE MELTAGUN?" (a two-second process) then you're either beyond help or pretending that the problem is worse than it really is.

Or, you forget the fact that either one has a meltagun because Squad A's melta gunner is jut a different colored marine, move your vehicle over and get melta'ed.

It's a courtesy to your opponent.

Yeah if you're completely forgetting about the existence of meltaguns in the enemy army and find yourself incapable of asking your opponent about what's in his army (which is something you should be used to if you frequently forget that he might have meltaguns, a very prominent and dangerous weapon in 40k) then I don't know what to tell you other than get better at the game and notice that as your skill improves your irritation with things that arent' 100% wysiwyg will start to fade. TBH If somoene has that hard of a time in the situation you've described then they probably wouldn't be helped by seeing tiny meltaguns on the table anyway.

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

Why?

Presumably using Eldar as Dark Eldar would create a problem, ditto for using Orks as Tyranids. Just because you play Marines you should have access to 5 different codices (6 if you count CSM)?

I see someone running vanilla SM as Space Wolves the same way I see someone running Tyranids as Orks.

I've made this statement before, but I feel ultimately WYSIWYG is 'politeness.'

When you meet someone new or in a formal situation, you tend to ramp up the politeness. When it's a more casual situation, you can relax a bit. Your friends overlook behavior that might not be acceptable in tenser situations.

In a tournament I would expect WYSIWYG to be stricter (according to the prevailing guidelines of the player base). In a game with a new player, if I'm not 100% WYSIWYG, I feel I should be making up for that as best I can: Simple swaps ("This army has no flamethrowers. Any flamer you see is actually a Meltagun.").

On the other side, my friends are the people I've had parties with, camped with, done stupid stuff with. If I'm playing with friends I don't mind "Hey, I want to try this new army before I buy: can I proxy my entire army or this new faction?"

With friends, there's generally less time constraints. Winning/Losing is less of an ego blow because we're likely either equal-ish, in some sort of mentor/pupil mode, or at least I am comfortable that a win by 'unfair means' will be something I'll hear about for decades to come.

I try to be polite. That includes during a game.

Invisible powerfists are annoying but anyone that's been playing 40k for more than a few weeks should know to ask what gear the sergeant is toting around. Is it ideal? No. Is it the barrier to proper play that people are making it out to be? Only if they're pretty bad.

Now green and purple marines in robes that are shooting bolters to support the giant (insert whatever large model is pretending to be TWC here) while a chaplain shoots jaws of the world wolf at people is pretty easy to identify as an army, as are blue marines with red fists that keep deep striking using the descent of angels rule while their dreadnought shoots blood-flavored psychic powers at you. This stuff isn't that complicated - the prevailing attitude here about fluff usually references blood knights shooting blood lasers at holy warriors that have holy swords that deflect the bullets with holy shield and then people still somehow try to act like it's hard to tell what army you're actually facing.

In a perfect world, everyone's models would be built according to everyone's specifications, somehow, but in that same perfect world people wouldn't be squinting at 5-man squads from across the table to determine exactly what was about to come at them.

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

Why?

Presumably using Eldar as Dark Eldar would create a problem, ditto for using Orks as Tyranids. Just because you play Marines you should have access to 5 different codices (6 if you count CSM)?

I see someone running vanilla SM as Space Wolves the same way I see someone running Tyranids as Orks.

I use my Black Templars as codex marines from time to time. They are exactly WYSIWYG.

Comparing that to Nids as Orks isn't remotely the same.

I agree with biccat, if you're proxying you're proxying, the only real difference being for TLOS purposes it's going to be easier to tell if you *should* be able to see the model when they are all power armored marines. Whether it's relevant or not is a different story - TLOS aside, if you see 30x dark eldar following a Killa Kan, that's probably a mob of Boyz with a power klaw in there somewhere.

A black templar painted space marine with a bolter is not a proxy for an Ultramarine painted space marine with a bolter.

Saying differently is being obtuse.

kronk wrote:A black templar painted space marine is not a proxy for an Ultramarine painted space marine.

If a "black templar" space marine model is different than an "ultramarine" space marine model, then you certainly are proxying.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, just like I wouldn't care if you proxied shoota boyz for hormagaunts. But you're still proxying.

I think a better way of explaining it is that the majority of power armored imperial models are aesthetically pretty similar but have a variety of different rules and points costs, and the mental energy required to understand what keeps a blood angel distinct from an ultramarine is remarkably similar to understanding what makes a dark eldar wych different from the ork nob it's being proxied as.

So yeah, if it's got crosses and chains but it doesn't charge d6 at me after I shoot it, I know it's being proxied as something non-BT. Point is that it's not really a complicated enough game to make a difference, and people that are against proxying seem to assume that it's somehow difficult to just ask "what's in that unit?" before moving headlong into it.

Edit - biccat and I appear to be saying the same thing

I still maintain that power armor is power armor, and that my guy in power armor with a boltgun is WYSIWYG for any other guy in power armor with a boltgun from any other codex that has guys with power armor and boltguns.

In other words a marine is a marine. The only exception is grey knights due to their unique loadout. However if i had tac squads with stormbolters and the nemisis weapons hes a WYSIWYG model.

Kinda hating this thread. There is nothing less stupid than WYSIWYG in this game. If WYSIWYG is stupid then the whole goddam concept of having stats and rules is stupid.

No one wants to attack a tactical squad only to discover it's a squad of paladins..

That being said, you can paint your army whatever way you want, but I think all the models should be the right models, and have the right equipment.

As for the money problem, only one answer : dont play 40K, or choose your army carefully and play only one. I dont have a lot of money to invest, so I choose my units VERY carefully before I buy them. If I still dont have enough money to buy what I want (no, not need, ou never "need" a plastic toy) well I just wait, or dont play. That's life, deal with it, dont just complain about having to have the right models to play the game.

Hell I hate myself for those two boxes of lychguard I bought...but hey, no wraiths, what can you do ?

I agree with the right weapons, 100%. But to say your guys arent WYSIWYG just because they lack wolves or mohawks or blood drops on the astetics of the armor is stupid.

One of the great things about space marines is that its so easy to create your successor chapter and use 'counts-as' rules, but for the most part I believe that effort should be made to sell the idea. Excorcists that 'count-as' Grey Knights? Sure! How about Hunters that 'count-as' Space Wolves? Absolutely. If you just want to make one chapter, and then paint up a bunch of different units like Baals, TWC, or Dreadknights in YOUR chapter colors and then run them depending on your mood, be my guest but be put some effort into the uniformity of the force and your conversions. I DO have a problem with a guy running Ultramarines as Salamanders. I understand that a green marine witha bolter is the same as a green marine with a bolter, but no matter how hard you try, Calgar is NOT HeStan. I have a blood angels army that I took a lot of care into creating. I don't like it when other people set down their unpainted plastic models and say that the 'rhino with the dice on top is actually a stormraven loaded with 10 tactical marines that are actually death company and one AoBR dread that is actually a furiouso.' Its one thing if its someone trying to decide which army he wants to stick with; That I understand, but if its someone who has been playing for years and just doesn't want to spend the money on the army, that I have an issue with. I don't care if you don't want to drop the money on another army, but the penalty for that is not having every army you want. I don't want to drop the money on a Ferrari, and the penalty for that is that I can't take my Honda to a car show and enter it as an Enzo and then complain when it gets laughed out of the show.

The two exceptions to my feelings:
1) as stated before, if your'e trying out before you buy, I'm all for it. Just let me know IN DETAIL what has what ahead of time, and please try and remember yourself!
2) if a friend of mine just wants to depart from the norm a little bit. Someone said before, you want to run Templars as Vanilla Marines? Go right ahead! I know you and I know that you run Templars 98 games out of 100, but please let me know in advance whats what and stick to the rule laid out in #1.

Sure you may not like it if someone runs ultras as sallies, but thats a fluff, not rules reason. As for the rhino thats actually a storm raven, i dont think thats cool, not at all. The wargear and the model need to be the same. Which is where space marines are so similar that I can use a tac marine is 6 different codexes.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I agree with the right weapons, 100%. But to say your guys arent WYSIWYG just because they lack wolves or mohawks or blood drops on the astetics of the armor is stupid.

If I were playing someone, and someone wanted to play space wolves models as blood angels, if it seemed like a cool person or some kid or whatever, I'd say "sure", because I dont want to be an annoying Ahole. That being said, I'm the one paying the price for my opponents selfishness or whatever, because the guy could simply play space wolves. Wanna play blood angels? Buy the models. Cant buy the models? Play space wolves. I've had a Death Guard army for years, and since I didnt have the funds (oh how I loved weed) I didnt play any other army. Did I want a world eaters army? Sure. Did I use plague marines as khorne berserkers? Hell no. I'd feel bad about it.


When newcrons came out, I really wanted to play them, still smoked, didnt have the funds. What did I do? Sold the Death Guard. Broke my heart as much as selling your toys can, but hell, in life you make choices and I'm happy that's the kind of choice I have to make as opposed to choosing between feeding my family and buying crack or whatever.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that there IS a difference between space wolves and blood angels. I want to see that difference right away so that 1) I can enjoy the game visually, 2) I can be sure not to make stupid mistakes and enjoy it rules-wise. If you play your space wolves as blood angels, you're spoiling, even if only partly, the game for me, and for that you're a selfish git. On the other hand, if I force you to play your space wolves as...well, space wolves, I'm just asking you to play by the rules, and that is IN NO WAY controlling your opponent. It's just the way it should be done.

The person who asks you to respect WYSIWIG is always right, even if it may be a little harsh or whatever, it's NORMAL, not selfish, or control, or whatever.



That being said, I'd let you proxy whatever you want IRL because I just dont give that much of a feth. I just dont want to read people trying to explain how WYSIWYG is stupid or how players who insist on it are donkey-caves. They're not, you are, because you are asking THEM to make sacrifices just because you dont want to spend the money on the models your army needs. Dont have that money? Deal with it, and thank God that's the only goddam problem you have in life.

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

Why?

Because the wargear is the same.

Presumably using Eldar as Dark Eldar would create a problem, ditto for using Orks as Tyranids.

Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Just because you play Marines you should have access to 5 different codices (6 if you count CSM)?

Yep. I see no ethical reason to deny someone that flexibility.

I see someone running vanilla SM as Space Wolves the same way I see someone running Tyranids as Orks.

Apples and Oranges comparison there.

A large number of people on this board can afford to buy and paint new units just to test them on a board for a game or two. The problem is it's completely absurd to expect that of someone - if you want to know how a razorback would work, but you only have a spare rhino? I don't really care how much cash you have floating around, it's not going to cause problems for me if you just use the rhino instead of buying a brand-new kit.

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

To the guy who said running vanilla marines as wolves is the same as running nids as orks, please explain how?

One is a guy in power armor with a boltgun being run as a guy in power armor with a boltgun. The other is a bug being run as a fungus man.

And Bond i understand you like the difference between the models, and that you like to smoke, but thats again isnt a WYSIWYG.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:So, colors matter on a SM? Does that mean that I'm proxying when I use my black and purple marines as Vanilla Marines or is it only proxying if I want to use a varient chapter like BA or BT?
All that matters to me is that my opponent's models have the correct type of armor and the correct weapon. The color of the model doesn't make a plasma gun do anything different (with the exception of red vehicles and orks/goblins).

I think there is a subtle difference that may not change your feelings about the situation but should be acknowledged. That subtle difference is that painting space wolf models pink and using them as space wolves is much less confusing than say painting normal space marines green and calling them space wolves.

Now personally I don't think it is confusing because you aren't going to be really confused if someone is using normal space marines as dark angels or space wolves for the most part, but as the codecii have gotten significantly different in the last edition it is becoming more of a problem.

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

" biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.


Why?



Because the wargear is the same. "


That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Not counting the fact that playing space wolves as blood angels, or blood angels as dark angels is just plain annoying from a visual point of view and just spoils the game for the opponent. Just play the army you have, goddam it.


If the models dont count lets just do like we used to do with magics (yeah, the card game) and play with pieces of paper with gak written on them, I mean why not, as long as you wrote the right wargear.........................





Automatically Appended Next Post:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

Great post. May give some people here ideas...

MikeMcSomething wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

Your being intentionaly dense friend. The reason a marine can be run in most other marine codex is because its a guy in power armor with a boltgun, and all the other marines have guys with power armor and boltguns. Your model is clearly a Incubi.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

And Bond i understand you like the difference between the models, and that you like to smoke, but thats again isnt a WYSIWYG.

And I dont understand a word you're saying, but then again it's probably just some stupid rambling about how you're too selfish to buy the models you need to play the game, so I dont really give a heck.

Our friend had no money, so he used those old bags of blank bases as proxy armies. He played 1850pt dual lash princes, ork mobs, and Necrons with nothing but black bases, flipped over bases, and bases with the occasional mark written on them as models. Great player, and we had great games, and nobody ever magically forgot where the meltaguns were. This stuff isn't hard.

Yeah but as incubi has 2 arms and 2 legs, and the space marine has 2 arms and 2 legs so it's basically the same thing isn't it?

oadie wrote:In reality, the lines between color schemes, conversions, and counts-as can get blurry, as they all amount to the same thing, essentially, with varying degrees of severity - rectifying the abstract (rules, stats, fluff) with the concrete (models on the table). Varying priorities regarding those elements are just as likely to derail a game as an inability or refusal to bother remembering what is what.

What I was specifically referring to, was the idea that a squad of PA marines, armed appropriately, is somehow not a good representation WYSIWYG grey hunter, as proposed by ArbitorIan. The SW codex is meant to cover SW and their successor chapters, every one of which does not necessarily parade around in wolf capes and bone fetishes. Same goes for the BA and DA codex. If somebody has a large collection of marines, and has enough of them armed properly to cover different units from a range of PA SM codex's, then I don't see the problem. If I'm playing against blue marines that my opponent says are SWs, then I know they are SWs, and not Ultramarines.

biccat wrote:

kronk wrote:A black templar painted space marine is not a proxy for an Ultramarine painted space marine.

If a "black templar" space marine model is different than an "ultramarine" space marine model, then you certainly are proxying.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, just like I wouldn't care if you proxied shoota boyz for hormagaunts. But you're still proxying.

I disagree with you here. As long as the war gear is the same why would this be considered proxying? Because one is painted black instead of blue? Or is it the tabard and chain around his bolter that makes him a different model?

MikeMcSomething wrote:Our friend had no money, so he used those old bags of blank bases as proxy armies. He played 1850pt dual lash princes, ork mobs, and Necrons with nothing but black bases, flipped over bases, and bases with the occasional mark written on them as models. Great player, and we had great games, and nobody ever magically forgot where the meltaguns were. This stuff isn't hard.

Yeah well, if you enjoy playing against turned over bases, lucky you. Some of us dont, and shouldnt be forced to. If you're such good people, help the guy buy an army. That's what we did.

Bond.
Its simple, you ask "what brand of power armored, boltgun wielding guys are you playing?"

Then he answers with "x marines" and you know what special rules your facing.

"Or is it the tabard and chain around his bolter that makes him a different model? "


Precisely, because of you know, those things called special rules. Those things that are the reason they make DIFFERENT CODICES for DIFFERENT CHAPTERS

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

The base model is still the same.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Bond.
Its simple, you ask "what brand of power armored, boltgun wielding guys are you playing?"

Then he answers with "x marines" and you know what special rules your facing.

And then I have to translate every unit into the equivalent unit in the other chapter. The thing is, it may sometimes make quite a large difference and since I'm already thinking about my moves, I dont want to be thinking about what space wolves terminators do that blood angels terminators dont or whatever else.



Anyhow, I'm not saying proxying is wrong, I'm just saying people who insist on respecting the WYSIWYG rule arent either.

Bond wrote:Yeah but as incubi has 2 arms and 2 legs, and the space marine has 2 arms and 2 legs so it's basically the same thing isn't it?

Arms and legs aren't wargear, so they're not technically necessary.

Just staple a boltgun onto a base and you can play using whatever codex you want.

It's brilliant, really.

Question for the anti-proxying crowd: would you consider it proxying if I ran my power-armored, boltgun-wielding Thousand Sons (with powerfist equipped Sorcerer) as Blood Angels? Why or why not?

edit: what about as plague marines?

I dont play Marines, i have a 100% WYSIWYG Imperial Guard army. My point is, a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex A is a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex B. And that your personal preference to have an army painted in the chapters colors, and your love of smoking isnt a WYSIWYG issue.

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Well you have a serious problem with your logic here and that is you don't have to paint blood angels red to use their rules according to GW. The Lamenters are a blood angels successor chapter and they are Yellow. WYSIWYG is specifically meant to pertain to wargear and not to paint schemes. Please show me in the Blood Angels codex exactly what page states that space marines using the Blood Angels codex have to be painted red. You can't because GW does not believe this. You can paint your Blood Angels any color you want.

Your argument is better when you keep it to Space Wolves who actually have different models. Unfortunately the Blood Angels have mostly the SAME EXACT models as other marines. As a matter of fact I can field a Blood Angels army without any Blood Angel specific models at all......

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I dont play Marines, i have a 100% WYSIWYG Imperial Guard army. My point is, a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex A is a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex B. And that your personal preference to have an army painted in the chapters colors, and your love of smoking isnt a WYSIWYG issue.

Wow you obsessed on the smoking thing or what? I just mentionned that to explain why I couldnt buy multiple armies, and if I want to talk about all day long I will, WYSIWYG issue or not, and I wont blame you for being a bloody fascist.


And my point is, if a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex A is a guy in power armor with a boltgun in codex B, there wouldnt be a codex A and a codex B.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

MikeMcSomething wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

Your being intentionaly dense friend. The reason a marine can be run in most other marine codex is because its a guy in power armor with a boltgun, and all the other marines have guys with power armor and boltguns. Your model is clearly a Incubi.

If you were to go with "Gribbly space alien" "guy in power armor" and "space elf" and ''space robot'' as your proxy categories, so to speak, then I wouldn't see a huge problem, but the difference in profile and aesthetics between something like a Dire Avenger and a Dark Eldar Warrior is smaller than comparing something like a Vanguard Vet and a Sanguinary Guard and a Plague Marine. What I see alot of is an argument similar to "You can paint tac squad box marines any color you want ergo all power armored imperials should function as appropriate proxies for all other power armored imperials" <-- while I am in favor of proxies (I would rather fight the army you want to field, than fight your checkbook) I don't necessarily think the line of reasoning that's pro-"marines can be any other marines" is as sound as people seem to think it is.

Bond wrote:

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Bond.
Its simple, you ask "what brand of power armored, boltgun wielding guys are you playing?"

Then he answers with "x marines" and you know what special rules your facing.

And then I have to translate every unit into the equivalent unit in the other chapter. The thing is, it may sometimes make quite a large difference and since I'm already thinking about my moves, I dont want to be thinking about what space wolves terminators do that blood angels terminators dont or whatever else.



Anyhow, I'm not saying proxying is wrong, I'm just saying people who insist on respecting the WYSIWYG rule arent either.

Ummm don't you think your taking that a little too far? If you are going to insist on WYSIWYG as a rule you should know what that rule was intended to mean in the first place.

So if I built my space wolves five years ago I would have to buy all new models? Because you do know that five years ago they were the same exact models as the vanilla marines with an upgrade sprue?

Bond wrote: " biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.


Why?



Because the wargear is the same. "


That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Not counting the fact that playing space wolves as blood angels, or blood angels as dark angels is just plain annoying from a visual point of view and just spoils the game for the opponent. Just play the army you have, goddam it.


If the models dont count lets just do like we used to do with magics (yeah, the card game) and play with pieces of paper with gak written on them, I mean why not, as long as you wrote the right wargear.........................

You do realize that the various SM codex's cover successor chapters too, and that many wear different colored armor than their founding chapter? There can certainly be grey BAs just as easily as there can be red SWs. Take your ADHD meds and try to focus a little bit and you won't have problems with this in-game.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Nope, but a PA marine, armed appropriately can be used for either.

brettz123 wrote:

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Well you have a serious problem with your logic here and that is you don't have to paint blood angels red to use their rules according to GW. The Lamenters are a blood angels successor chapter and they are Yellow. WYSIWYG is specifically meant to pertain to wargear and not to paint schemes. Please show me in the Blood Angels codex exactly what page states that space marines using the Blood Angels codex have to be painted red. You can't because GW does not believe this. You can paint your Blood Angels any color you want.

Your argument is better when you keep it to Space Wolves who actually have different models. Unfortunately the Blood Angels have mostly the SAME EXACT models as other marines. As a matter of fact I can field a Blood Angels army without any Blood Angel specific models at all......

That was a manner a speech meaning : I need to recognize them immediatly as following the rules for blood angels, be it through their armor scheme or the iconography on the armor.

The color of a model has nothing and I mean nothing, for WYSIWYG. I can't belive I even needed to write that.

skyth wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

The base model is still the same.

It's funny that biccat chose Space Wolves vs Ultramarines for his particular line, because the "Base Model" for space wolf grey hunter is actually 100% different components from the space marines in the Tactical Squad box. The torsos and legs are even different.

biccat wrote:QED.

biccat wrote:

Bond wrote:Yeah but as incubi has 2 arms and 2 legs, and the space marine has 2 arms and 2 legs so it's basically the same thing isn't it?

Arms and legs aren't wargear, so they're not technically necessary.

Just staple a boltgun onto a base and you can play using whatever codex you want.

It's brilliant, really.

Question for the anti-proxying crowd: would you consider it proxying if I ran my power-armored, boltgun-wielding Thousand Sons (with powerfist equipped Sorcerer) as Blood Angels? Why or why not?

edit: what about as plague marines?

Wow, I mean is that a real question? Yeah, it's proxying. Why? Because they look like thousand sons, not like blood angels or plague marines. I'd let you do it, but yeah it's proxying, because you dont play the model as what it's meant to represent. I would let you play them as vanilla marines though since pre-heresy thousand sons are still thousand sons...


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WOW I write whole, clear paragraphs that SHOULD have shut you up a while ago, and you all get me for the color example. Remember the skull face chaplain guys? I didnt put that in the sentence for nothing, quote whole sentences, and try to understand them before you do so. You remind me of those people in class who always raise their hands to answer the easy questions but hide when the teacher asks a difficult one.


Anyhow, if you think asking you to respect the WYSIWYG rule is being an donkey-cave, you're just out of reach.

Bond wrote:

biccat wrote:

Bond wrote:Yeah but as incubi has 2 arms and 2 legs, and the space marine has 2 arms and 2 legs so it's basically the same thing isn't it?

Arms and legs aren't wargear, so they're not technically necessary.

Just staple a boltgun onto a base and you can play using whatever codex you want.

It's brilliant, really.

Question for the anti-proxying crowd: would you consider it proxying if I ran my power-armored, boltgun-wielding Thousand Sons (with powerfist equipped Sorcerer) as Blood Angels? Why or why not?

edit: what about as plague marines?

Wow, I mean is that a real question? Yeah, it's proxying. Why? Because they look like thousand sons, not like blood angels or plague marines. I'd let you do it, but yeah it's proxying, because you dont play the model as what it's meant to represent. I would let you play them as vanilla marines though since pre-heresy thousand sons are still thousand sons...

What if there Blood Angels that I painted with Thousand Son colors becouse i like that better. Is that proxying if I use them as BA.

No because the iconography reminds me every second that they are blood angels (come on, blood drops all over the place?) or at least a chapter affiliated with blood angels. Why the hell not? You're trying to play blood angel models as blood angels? Wow those questions arent as smart as you think you know.

Would probably look pretty ugly though.

What I desing my own markings, not all BA units are BA only boxes. So no icon, maybe I don't like BA icons, so I remove them. Is that still good.

Noir wrote:What I desing my own markings, not all BA units are BA only boxes. So no icon, maybe I don't like BA icons, so I remove them. Is that still good.

And for the bonus round - what if he paints them all light red with a cyclops motif? Is he proxying them as Thousand Sons then?

So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels.




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MikeMcSomething wrote:

Noir wrote:What I desing my own markings, not all BA units are BA only boxes. So no icon, maybe I don't like BA icons, so I remove them. Is that still good.

And for the bonus round - what if he paints them all light red with a cyclops motif? Is he proxying them as Thousand Sons then?

Heavy conversion and proxying isnt the same thing : the cyclops motif actually justifies using vanilla marines as thousand sons. Proxying is taking a model that looks like chapter A and using it as chapter B. Converting a model from chapter A to make it look like a model from chapter B is not proxying.




Your examples stop working from the moment you start converting the model to make it look like what you want it to be.

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it. .

Wait, it's the color of the armor that gives them FNP and not the guy with the chalice amongst them. I need to repaint my army red when I play you so that I can have FNP. Because it's obvious that anyone who paints their army red can only be painting blood angels and not some other chapter of SM.
Does that mean my yellow armored lamenters can't have FNP because they don't have red armor? Or that it is a proxy for a "legitimate" blood angel chapter? How about the split black/red armor of the Angels Sanguine? You seem to be confusing the color of the armor with the function of the figure. And even all blood angels don't have red/black armor (see the Sanguinary guard [gold] and death company [black]).

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it. .

Wait, it's the color of the armor that gives them FNP and not the guy with the chalice amongst them. I need to repaint my army red when I play you so that I can have FNP. Because it's obvious that anyone who paints their army red can only be painting blood angels and not some other chapter of SM.
Does that mean my yellow armored lamenters can't have FNP because they don't have red armor? Or that it is a proxy for a "legitimate" blood angel chapter? How about the split black/red armor of the Angels Sanguine? You seem to be confusing the color of the armor with the function of the figure. And even all blood angels don't have red/black armor (see the Sanguinary guard [gold] and death company [black]).

I answered that already, and if you reread the sentence I mentionned that the chaplain was the one that gave FNP. It's not smart to say stuff people have already said (all of it, even the lamenters example) and that the opponent has already answered. Color was just an example. Answered that sucker-punch question like twice already, go reread and then return.

We've all kind of established Bond will rant for the strictest interpretation of WYSIWYG, and he's really welcome to do so.

I have yet to see a legitimately skilled player really worry about whether he's going to 'forget' that you have a powerfist in your squad or that your assault marines have meltabombs, etc

Bond wrote:So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels..

Well then what if I had a Death Company unit in there. Using a Death Company box just removing the icons.

rigeld2 wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:The time it gets stupid, is when your SM sergeant has a PW and Combi-flamer and Melta Bombs and WYSIWYG says you should model the Melta Bomb on the model. I have been picked up for this at tournaments and docked points.

I did point out that if this level of ridiculousness is the case, any marine not having Grenades modeled on his torso or body shouldn't be allowed Grenades. They said it's standard wargear, but mine was additional so cost points, I also got marked down on sportsmanship for calling this level "Anal-lity" BS. Still bloody stupid, I now have 6 Melta Bombs on mini 5mm bases that I place at the feet of models who have them. (RIDICULOUS!)

Why is it ridiculous? You're supposed to model upgrades. Melta Bombs are upgrades.

Should you not have to model power weapons as well?

Actually you've got everything "Arse about face here" (British term for wrong end of the stick). If you go with pure blue blood WYSIWYG, you would need a box of Sergeants for every Tactical Squad box (to cover all the wargear options). Bearing in mind that not every Marine has a Bolt Pistol modelled on them, yet they get them. Not every Marine has Grenades has them modelled, yet everyone has them WYSIWYG is frankly aspirational. Do you ask where the Signum is on a Devastator Sergeant? Do you not let you opponent Pop-smoke on his Rhino if he has no launchers? Do you not let him have extra Armour because you cannot see it on the outside of the vehicle? Have you ever identified a Digital Weapon? Or how can you prove it is Master crafted (because I say it is!). At a tournament you should give a nice list to your opponent and he/she can read it and you can also make a logical system. #1 Rhino carry's #1 Squad with nice decals so it's all logical etc etc and I have to say players like this because it is logical for them to follow.

Even at Tournament play level we all talk about this and most of us agree that true WYSIWYG is too hard to achieve we would need armies twice as big and many different special characters. Some the same with minor differences, "This one has an AUX Grenade Launcher, but otherwise is identical to the last miniature i showed you "is monumentally silly both in terms of loadout options and resources (money, time, painting). We can all make a leap of faith on this, if you cannot surmount this ideological hurdle then the idea of Mock Model soldiers hypothetically fighting out a fantasy war in miniature scale using Cubes of Chance and faux weapons, well that sunshine, is gonna blow your tiny little mind.

mwnciboo, wins, Frawress Victory

Bond- Actually you haven't answered the base question. Which is how is color relevant to what function the model has. As long as the models has the proper equipment then it meets the WYSIWYG rules. It even states that right in the rulebook page 47.
You might find it more convenient for your memory if your opponent follows your expectations but it just doesn't meet the RAW. The opponent is under no obligation to paint his models in any particular way to meet the requirements of any codex of which I am aware. If there is such a rule I would be happy to concede that color is indeed important to the game.
Sorry to hear that you can't figure out your opponents army without them having a color scheme that you expect.

Bond, how can you tell the difference between a BA 10 man assault squad with 2 flamers and a Sgt. w/thunder hammer, and a C:SM 10 man assault squad with 2 flamers and a Sgt. w/thunder hammer? Are you confused yet? Hint, these are made from the same kit...

I never said it was about color, nor am I a WYSIWYG nazi as others seem to be stating. I am not saying it's really about my memory either. I'm saying, and if you go back that is my original statement, that if you want to play space wolves as blood angels I will let you do so, but will consider you an donkey-cave.

You may choose any color scheme you want, and convert as much as you want, but PLEASE let the models look like what they are meant to represent. Space wolves models DO NOT resemble blood angels in the slightest way, and therefore I consider it stupid (unless for playtesting purposes) to play that way.


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:Bond- Actually you haven't answered the base question. Which is how is color relevant to what function the model has. As long as the models has the proper equipment then it meets the WYSIWYG rules. It even states that right in the rulebook page 47.
You might find it more convenient for your memory if your opponent follows your expectations but it just doesn't meet the RAW. The opponent is under no obligation to paint his models in any particular way to meet the requirements of any codex of which I am aware. If there is such a rule I would be happy to concede that color is indeed important to the game.
Sorry to hear that you can't figure out your opponents army without them having a color scheme that you expect.

I didnt, because it was a stupid question, the answer of which we all know. I'm not saying the color is relevant, I'm saying blood angels or armies played with blood angels rules need to have something visible linking them to the blood angels : that can be color, iconography, whatever you want, but something showing that these are descendants of sanguinius. Is that being a nazi? I dont think so, it just help everyone enjoy the game more


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Noir wrote:

Bond wrote:So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels..

Well then what if I had a Death Company unit in there. Using a Death Company box just removing the icons.

If you removed all the icons and stuff reminding that they are Death Company, you've converted them in the way that they aren't Death Company anymore haven't you?

You're right; it isn't about color, but it isn't about BA or SW iconography either. You keep forgetting that there are successor chapters covered by the various SM codex's in question. And every BA successor, doesn't resemble BAs, same with SWs, BTs, DAs, etc... So it perfectly reasonable to build a bunch of marines in any color and use them for any of the above codex's.

MikeMcSomething wrote:We've all kind of established Bond will rant for the strictest interpretation of WYSIWYG, and he's really welcome to do so.

I have yet to see a legitimately skilled player really worry about whether he's going to 'forget' that you have a powerfist in your squad or that your assault marines have meltabombs, etc

Yeah well it would break that player's balls if you had 5 tactical squads, with all of the sargeant models wearing power swords, but with 3 of them listed as having power fists. Asking every time you charge if the sargeant has a power fist or not is not a big effort, but it's still more annoying than not having to do it.


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helium42 wrote:You're right; it isn't about color, but it isn't about BA or SW iconography either. You keep forgetting that there are successor chapters covered by the various SM codex's in question. And every BA successor, doesn't resemble BAs, same with SWs, BTs, DAs, etc... So it perfectly reasonable to build a bunch of marines in any color and use them for any of the above codex's.

It's lazy. non-fluffy and selfish, but probably legal, if you stretch the definition of what is legal or not.


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I'm not a tournament player, but maybe someone who has been in many tournaments could tell us if this is acceptable or not. Were I to organize a tournament, I would not consider it legal if no effort is made to make a visible link between the models and the codex they are submitted to


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Anyhow, as I've already stated many times, I let people do whatever they want, I'm just saying whining about people who DO insist on WYSIWYG like the OP did is not fair to these people who are just trying to enjoy the game : they made an effort to stick to their codex, and so should you.

It would be perfectly legal for me to buy 10 praetorians, assemble them with the rods, and use them as crypteks (nowhere is it stated that cryptek NEED to have only one eye), but I wont do it. It just seems fair to make a minimal effort to convert them so that SOMETHING tells you they're crypteks.


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And that is my last post for tonight (french time : 1 AM), good night to you all.

Bond wrote:


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helium42 wrote:You're right; it isn't about color, but it isn't about BA or SW iconography either. You keep forgetting that there are successor chapters covered by the various SM codex's in question. And every BA successor, doesn't resemble BAs, same with SWs, BTs, DAs, etc... So it perfectly reasonable to build a bunch of marines in any color and use them for any of the above codex's.

It's lazy. non-fluffy and selfish, but probably legal, if you stretch the definition of what is legal or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

You've just won the award for most asinine comment in the thread. If I had a third arm, I'd be triple face-palming right now, but since I don't I'll simply settle for a double. I award you no points. And may God have mercy on your soul.

Lucky I actually ended up lurking on the forum some more. Send all the videos you want and insult all you want, but what I've said is still true. If you think otherwise, and that using the same army to represent ALL space marine chapters is not lazy, is fluffy, and is not selfish, I have the pleasure of sending this back to you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU


Also, please leave God and my soul out of this.


"L'intelligence doit etre la chose la mieux repartie du monde, car personne ne semble en desirer plus qu'il n'en a." Descartes, biatch.

Bond wrote:So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels.

.

Again show me in the codex where it says you have to do that? And you obviously don't know much about space marines because there is no separate blood angels box for tactical marines or devastators.


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Bond wrote:
I'm not a tournament player, but maybe someone who has been in many tournaments could tell us if this is acceptable or not. Were I to organize a tournament, I would not consider it legal if no effort is made to make a visible link between the models and the codex they are submitted to

Well I have played in probably 40 or so tournaments including a couple grand tournaments back in the day (3rd edition days anyway) and you are 100% incorrect. GW does not demand you have any specific colors or iconography on a space marine in order to use a specific codex. Your position is completely ignorant. All chapters have an unknown number of successor chapters that can be fielded with any color or iconography they want.

You have been repeatedly asked to show where it says in any rule book that you have to paint or put iconography on a model to have it fit into a specific army yet you refuse to answer this simple question. It blows my mind that people still think like this.

Now I don't think you should use space wolves as blood angels but it isn't against any rules as long as your model with a power fist represents a guy with a power fist etc..... etc.......

Bond wrote:Wow, I mean is that a real question? Yeah, it's proxying. Why? Because they look like thousand sons, not like blood angels or plague marines. I'd let you do it, but yeah it's proxying, because you dont play the model as what it's meant to represent. I would let you play them as vanilla marines though since pre-heresy thousand sons are still thousand sons...

Yes, it's a real question to people who don't think playing SM as BA is proxying.

I agree with you wholeheartedly: yes it's proxying. I'm curious if people who disagree with you think it's proxying.

Oy.

MikeMcSomething wrote:It's funny that biccat chose Space Wolves vs Ultramarines for his particular line, because the "Base Model" for space wolf grey hunter is actually 100% different components from the space marines in the Tactical Squad box. The torsos and legs are even different.

I didn't choose it by accident, I did so on purpose.

If someone wants to talk about using Space Sharks as Ultramarines there shouldn't be any issue (assuming the only difference is paint color).

I don't think that using a figure painted as some vanilla marine as a blood angel is proxying. Since the codex doesn't require a specific color scheme for any chapter due to all the unknown successor chapters.

There's no way anyone can say that only wolves have fur trimming on their armor or only blood angels have tear drops as their iconography.

Ergo as long as you have the appropriate armor and weapon selection(s) a marine can be any type of marine that the rules allow.

In fact the only instance that I can think of where the rules call for a specific color for an effect is the "red ones go faster" rules in the ork codex.

A question aimed more at courtesy than tournament-rulesing;

I want to fiddle my tactics with Termagaunts, see how many Fleshborers and how many Devourers I want to run with. Unfortunately, I had to choose when I was modelling, and while it's possible to switch them around, it's a fiddly and often breaking conversion to do (depends on your tools, glue).

If I distinguish the units with clearly different carapaces, and tell my opponent beforehand, are there many people I'm going to encounter with a problem with a Devourer-modelled unit having Fleshborers, or visa versa? All I can imagine are GW stores, which aren't really an issue for me (I like my Tervigons too much).

This is another thread that pops up each month, and no one will ever agree on.

-If you're playing in your house/club/basement then it's going to be up to your own group to set the rules.

-If you play at a store, the store may have rules. If they don't, it will depend on the group.

-If it's a tournament, the TO will have rules and make a decision.

Play how you want to, or by the rules your local area uses. Don't like those rules? Find another group. Don't like how people 100+ miles away play? Complain on the internet

But seriously, these threads never change anyones mind. They just degenerate until people start insulting each other and get locked.

Winterkit wrote:
If I distinguish the units with clearly different carapaces, and tell my opponent beforehand, are there many people I'm going to encounter with a problem with a Devourer-modelled unit having Fleshborers, or visa versa? All I can imagine are GW stores, which aren't really an issue for me (I like my Tervigons too much).

If the event requires WYSIWYG, then you are not WYSIWYG. If I faced this at a tourney, I would probably be upset as I shouldn't have to check a color-coded list to "see what I get", especially when everyone else is getting the advantage of "getting what they see". And in a 3 day tourney where decisions are made quickly in timed games, every little burden does impact decisions and mistakes can win or lose games. You should *NEVER* burden your opponent by not following the rules of the event even if you feel the rule is stupid or not a big deal.

In Casual play, you can ask if opponents consent to proxies and most people won't have an issue. But never assume or expect that people will accept proxies or that your proxies are WYSIWYG just because you want to swap weapons/armor/stats/unit type every game. A Shoota boy is not a Slugga boy, an Assault Marine with chainswords is not a Sanguinary Guard with glaives and deathmasks, A chainsword is not a Powerfist. If you want to do any of those, ask your opponent if you may proxy some things. If it is for a legitimate reason like playtesting or a low number, most people will be cool. If you rant about the unfairness of GW's bitz system and proxy an entire unit/army, expect resistance.

I say that as long as you ask first and explain the differences in model to what they are being used for before the game, then it's all right.

brettz123 wrote:

Bond wrote:So you're saying you want to play BA, with vanilla marine units, painted as thousand sons? Yeah, that's proxying to me. You may be playing marines with blood angels rules, but you're not playing blood angels. There has to be a blood drop somewhere there or something like it (chalice or whatever that reminds of the blood angels spirit). If not, it's just vanilla marines with an ugly paintjob, trying to be blood angels.

.

Again show me in the codex where it says you have to do that? And you obviously don't know much about space marines because there is no separate blood angels box for tactical marines or devastators.


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Bond wrote:
I'm not a tournament player, but maybe someone who has been in many tournaments could tell us if this is acceptable or not. Were I to organize a tournament, I would not consider it legal if no effort is made to make a visible link between the models and the codex they are submitted to

Well I have played in probably 40 or so tournaments including a couple grand tournaments back in the day (3rd edition days anyway) and you are 100% incorrect. GW does not demand you have any specific colors or iconography on a space marine in order to use a specific codex. Your position is completely ignorant. All chapters have an unknown number of successor chapters that can be fielded with any color or iconography they want.

You have been repeatedly asked to show where it says in any rule book that you have to paint or put iconography on a model to have it fit into a specific army yet you refuse to answer this simple question. It blows my mind that people still think like this.

Now I don't think you should use space wolves as blood angels but it isn't against any rules as long as your model with a power fist represents a guy with a power fist etc..... etc.......

Maybe you should learn how to read before you answer. Saying "yeah, it's proxying to me", doesnt mean it is illegal or that it is proxying to everyone, that is my opinion and I consider it to be fair and I'm entitled to it.

There is nothing in the rules against using purple painted marines as BA one day and SW the next, but 40k is a crappy game to begin with, which means that I derive my pleasure from playing it in the imagery that it evokes.

This kind of proxying, much like other kinds as well, lowers my enjoyment of the game because it forces me suspend my disbelief in order to remember "metagame" stuff. Therefore I generally refuse to play with anyone that uses proxies.

Besides, this type of behaviour just reeks of FotM'ism (tm), you've chosen a certain chapter, stick with it!

Does mixing pre and post heresy equipment in the same army also lower your fun since you have to suspend your disbelief to account for that as well? How do you handle a player that mixes characters together that lived years apart? If you feel that the game is crappy but you love the fluff then you should just read the books and not play the game.
I believe that the definition of a "proxy" is substituting a model for a different type of model (or at least that's always been what I've been told). How is painting a model changing its type? I guess you'd refuse to play my blue blood angels (with no iconography) since blue is not one of the "official" colors that blood angels wear even though the models have the correct weapons and armor ?

I agree with PhantomViper in the sense that it IS more enjoyable to play with or against an army painted and assembled in a way that gives it a real feel and an identity coherent with the rules it is following.

It isnt so much about colors as it is about identity : if your blood angels are blue but they still remind you and your opponent (and people watching) that they are linked to sanguinius, then not only is there nothing to criticize but it is also original, so it's cool.

But if you are trying to pass off grey-painted space wolves models as blood angels...I dont know, it just doesnt feel right. Even though I'm pretty competitive when I play, I still like to let myself be immersed in the universe and see the battle as an epic story. It's not that easy when the opponent's army is totally incoherent or if he's proxying all over the place.

Note that we are not really talking about WYSIWYG or legality anymore, this is just about how we enjoy the game.

Also, "Besides, this type of behaviour just reeks of FotM'ism (tm), you've chosen a certain chapter, stick with it! ". I totally agree.

From a TO standpoint I care primarily about weapons, base size and "confusion aspect". If its the right weapons, if its the right size and isnt designed to confuse the opponent then Im okay with it.

As a player, I tend not to care at all

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Does mixing pre and post heresy equipment in the same army also lower your fun since you have to suspend your disbelief to account for that as well? How do you handle a player that mixes characters together that lived years apart? If you feel that the game is crappy but you love the fluff then you should just read the books and not play the game.

Please tell me that you aren't seriously trying to dictate to me how I should enjoy my hobby?

What do you care if I put restrictions in the armies that I choose to play against? I'm not talking about tournament games (since I choose not to participate in 40K tournaments any more, if I wan't a good tournament game I'll just play FoW or WM), so whatever restrictions I wan't to put up are between me and my opponent.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I believe that the definition of a "proxy" is substituting a model for a different type of model (or at least that's always been what I've been told). How is painting a model changing its type? I guess you'd refuse to play my blue blood angels (with no iconography) since blue is not one of the "official" colors that blood angels wear even though the models have the correct weapons and armor ?

You are right, I would not play your "Ultramarine Angels".

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I still maintain that power armor is power armor, and that my guy in power armor with a boltgun is WYSIWYG for any other guy in power armor with a boltgun from any other codex that has guys with power armor and boltguns.

In other words a marine is a marine. The only exception is grey knights due to their unique loadout. However if i had tac squads with stormbolters and the nemisis weapons hes a WYSIWYG model.

Agreed. If weapons and equipment are WYSIWYG then it is, and is the only thing required by GW itself.

biccat wrote:

kronk wrote:A black templar painted space marine is not a proxy for an Ultramarine painted space marine.

If a "black templar" space marine model is different than an "ultramarine" space marine model, then you certainly are proxying.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, just like I wouldn't care if you proxied shoota boyz for hormagaunts. But you're still proxying.

You're confusing "Counts As" with "Proxy."

Bond wrote: " biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.


Why?



Because the wargear is the same. "


That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Not counting the fact that playing space wolves as blood angels, or blood angels as dark angels is just plain annoying from a visual point of view and just spoils the game for the opponent. Just play the army you have, goddam it.


If the models dont count lets just do like we used to do with magics (yeah, the card game) and play with pieces of paper with gak written on them, I mean why not, as long as you wrote the right wargear.........................





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MikeMcSomething wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Because the wargear is the same.

So if I glued choppas and shootas onto my Tyranids (or better yet, magnetized them!), you would be OK with it?

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

Let's have fun taking it a step further - most sprues for a given unit box have lots of ''extra'' weapons - if I glue a spare shuriken catapult, a power fist, a bolt pistol, bolter, missile launcher, ork choppa, ork pistol, splinter cannon, splinter rifle, dark lance, and "close combat weapon" <-- (we'll use a Kroot CCW for giggles) to the base of my Incubi, these people would presumably be 100% ok with me proxying them as the majority of models in the 40k universe.

Great post. May give some people here ideas...

Really, you're saying you don't have the mental capacity to adjust from grey to purple, that the color inevitably alters your view of your opponent? Codex changes must sure kick the crap out of you then.

kronk wrote:You're confusing "Counts As" with "Proxy."

Can I run my Thousand Sons as "counts as" grey hunters? Or would that be proxying?

What about if I ran them as "counts as" plague marines?

MikeMcSomething wrote:Our friend had no money, so he used those old bags of blank bases as proxy armies. He played 1850pt dual lash princes, ork mobs, and Necrons with nothing but black bases, flipped over bases, and bases with the occasional mark written on them as models. Great player, and we had great games, and nobody ever magically forgot where the meltaguns were. This stuff isn't hard.

Indeed. I've played against entire armies of chit warriors in 40K, EPIC, and BFG. Amazingly before computers and GW there were games made up completely of chits. Guess what, they were orders more tactically complex than GW cough***panzerleader***
I'm shocked that as functioning individuals, people can't overcome a color change. Lord help you if someone comes in with a fully decked out counts as army like Squats...



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Bond wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Bond wrote: That just doesnt cut it. I know blood angels have FNP because their armor is red, black, and there's some guy with a skull face running around with them. When I see space wolves, I just forget everything about FNP and I think about JOTWW or whatever. WYSIWYG is not just about the wargear. Some armies have special rules, and recognizing the army enables you to recognize the special rules that go along with it.

Well you have a serious problem with your logic here and that is you don't have to paint blood angels red to use their rules according to GW. The Lamenters are a blood angels successor chapter and they are Yellow. WYSIWYG is specifically meant to pertain to wargear and not to paint schemes. Please show me in the Blood Angels codex exactly what page states that space marines using the Blood Angels codex have to be painted red. You can't because GW does not believe this. You can paint your Blood Angels any color you want.

Your argument is better when you keep it to Space Wolves who actually have different models. Unfortunately the Blood Angels have mostly the SAME EXACT models as other marines. As a matter of fact I can field a Blood Angels army without any Blood Angel specific models at all......

That was a manner a speech meaning : I need to recognize them immediatly as following the rules for blood angels, be it through their armor scheme or the iconography on the armor.

I guess your opponent saying "Yea, I'm playing Dark Angels," doesn't do that for you?

What if I played Dark angels but show up with a black army. Is that wrong, even though pre heresy marines were black and were often black in RT? Would it be wrong for me to call you out if you then put a green army on the board FOR NOT BEING WYSIWYG?


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MikeMcSomething wrote:

skyth wrote:

biccat wrote:

skyth wrote:Yep, as the base model and the wargear are different.

Oh wait, now we're talking about base models.

Well, a Space Wolf isn't an Ultramarine, QED.

The base model is still the same.

It's funny that biccat chose Space Wolves vs Ultramarines for his particular line, because the "Base Model" for space wolf grey hunter is actually 100% different components from the space marines in the Tactical Squad box. The torsos and legs are even different.

biccat wrote:QED.

Now maybe. Not earlier. Does that mean only current models work for you?

biccat wrote:

kronk wrote:You're confusing "Counts As" with "Proxy."

Can I run my Thousand Sons as "counts as" grey hunters? Or would that be proxying?

What about if I ran them as "counts as" plague marines?

Do they have the right war gear? Then yes.

Are you using a flamer for a plasma gun? That would be a proxy. I'd allow you a few before it got annoyingly hard to remember.

biccat wrote:

kronk wrote:You're confusing "Counts As" with "Proxy."

Can I run my Thousand Sons as "counts as" grey hunters? Or would that be proxying?

What about if I ran them as "counts as" plague marines?

Of course it obviously would in both cases. I'd let you do it, but it would be.



Also to all the weak guys flaming about the color argument because they were unable to participate to the real debate, you should read a little more attentively. It's simply is about the army looking as what it's supposed to be : red space wolve models dont make them blood angels, but grey blood angels models can still be blood angels. However, red blood angels models (death company sprue for example) will NEVER be space wolves. If you think otherwise...well I just give up. If you guys think it's right to buy 5 boxes of ultramarines, paint them purple and then play them on the same day as blood angels, dark angels, space wolves and vanilla marines...well fine. I just think it kills part of the hobby and the fun because your army has no real "feel" to it, and therefore I'm playing against some kind of ghost army with no real identity, making the battle just a game that we could have played with bits of paper with stats written on them. Why buy and paint models if I can do that? Because the hobby is much more than that.

And variety is the spice of battle. Why limit yourself to using just one list when your army could work as a list from 5-6 different codecies? If you don't like it, blame GW for coming up with 5-6 different Marine codexes, don't blame the player for taking advantage of that interchangability.

Everyone likes changing up their list, but if someone wants to swap out one model in a list, you don't insist that they buy, assemble, and re-paint every other model in the army.

WYSIWYG Is just a scam for GW to sell models. I dont have a problem with x counts as y unless its completely stupid for example this pebble counts as a reaver titan.

Balance wrote:I've made this statement before, but I feel ultimately WYSIWYG is 'politeness.'

When you meet someone new or in a formal situation, you tend to ramp up the politeness. When it's a more casual situation, you can relax a bit. Your friends overlook behavior that might not be acceptable in tenser situations.

In a tournament I would expect WYSIWYG to be stricter (according to the prevailing guidelines of the player base). In a game with a new player, if I'm not 100% WYSIWYG, I feel I should be making up for that as best I can: Simple swaps ("This army has no flamethrowers. Any flamer you see is actually a Meltagun.").

I try to be polite. That includes during a game.

Completely agree with this. I know it's an oft-posted cliche, one of the things people seem to pick on as part of GW's 'most important rule', but a game between two players requires a level of decency, of good manners towards your opponent.

Now take for example, the prospect of one marine codex played as another, and how two people might propose this in different ways to their opponent, in the setting of a Pick-up game (which I think is where the issue lies).
Player A: "These green marines are Grey Knights, alright?"
Player B: " Would you be happy playing my Grey Knights army? I don't have the models yet/am not willing to buy an army just yet, but just wanted to try out a few games with them before I invest."Goes on to provide a clear explanation of what each model is proxying as, and continues to do this throughout the game"

Now I'm pretty sure that most people here wouldn't have a problem with player B, but that player A would immediately put your hackles up. I have encountered both of these player types (thankfully, mostly B) and generally it goes hand in hand with someone who is able to relate to other human beings in a social setting, and someone who isn't. I could almost guarantee which of those 2 players would provide the most 'fun' game, and which one wouldn't.

The other important issue here (and again this ties in with issues of that 'social contract') is providing some thought for your opponent. It sounds a strange thing to say, but putting a lot of effort into my own army is as much for my opponent as it is for myself, in that I want them to have a good experience.

If I could provide an example of my own, years ago I ran a Necromunda campaign in a store. We had about a dozen or so players coming in, some I knew well and others I didn't. I put a great deal of effort into the campaign; making scenarios, terrain, special rules and even helping a couple of guys do some conversions with their gangs. We played one multi-player scenario called 'The thing from the Sump' (some veteran WD readers may remember this one), which saw multiple players and their gangs trying to kill a mutant blob as it chased (and ate!) their gang members. After a particularly cinematic ending to the game, which saw a ganger sacrifice himself so others could blow the thing into a pit, one of the players (someone I didn't know well) came up to me afterwards and remarked that it was the most fun he had ever had playing a wargame.

To me this single comment meant more than any other victory I have had or will have playing a game - it is a fulfilling of that 'social contract' part of the experience. To me, poor effort with proxying. WYSIWYG, or whatever you want to call it, is a kind of anathema to providing a mutually fun experience. When carried out like player A above (and to be honest, if it happens commonly, even player B) It is saying "I don't care about your experience, I just want to play". It shows a lack of respect for your opponent, and a failing in one of the fundamental components of what makes tabletop wargaming so much fun. As I said however, this is more with regards to PUGs, rather than a mate playing in your garage.

skyth wrote:Yes. Allowing someone to use models that have the appropriate wargear modeled is not controlling. However, insisting that they are painted correctly to allow your opponent to use them is. Calling someone names and insulting them for using Marines from a Tactical Squad box as opposed to a Grey Hunter box is controlling and the sign of being an asshat. The big question is 'are you trying to control the other person's army?'.

With the price of GW models, you should be able to use marines for whichever chapter you want as long as the wargear is modelled correctly. It shouldn't matter what color you painted them or what the name of the box that they came from actually was.

I'd like to point out that at no point have I ever said that anyone has to paint their marines 'correctly'. As I said in my first post, you can do whatever you want with your models. I'm also aware that the rules for WYWIWYG only mention wargear - and that it is rules-legal to run your Blood-Angel painted marines as Space Wolves if you so wish.

However, it is my OPINION that running, say, Ultramarines as Space Wolves is confusing to your opponent, and should not be allowed in tournaments, as it confers unfair advantage. Even if you tell the opponent at the start of the game. The reason it's confusing is that the models have different rules but look very similar. Therefore, the very fact that it's Marines we're talking about is WHY it's confusing. Using a proxy Ork Warboss as a Broodlord in your otherwise WYSIWYG Tyranid army would be much LESS confusing, for example.

skyth wrote:I think by saying that the models need to have some extra SW bits in order to be WYSIWYG SWs is going a little overboard, especially coming from somebody who proxies old Squat models for IG, and Chimera hulls as Lemun Russ hulls in said army. I love your Squats BTW, but I think you are trying to apply double standards here.

As has already been pointed out, the reason this is less confusing is that the models are unlike anything else. I take great pains with my counts-as armies to make sure they're as obvious and rigidly WYWIWYG as possible, and that my opponents don't ever have to ask what a model 'represents', since it's obvious. Still, if I took one of those armies to a tournament, I'd check first, and if told that they would be unacceptable, would run something else instead. That's fine.

As has already been pointed out, the reason this is less confusing is that the models are unlike anything else. I take great pains with my counts-as armies to make sure they're as obvious and rigidly WYWIWYG as possible, and that my opponents don't ever have to ask what a model 'represents', since it's obvious. Still, if I took one of those armies to a tournament, I'd check first, and if told that they would be unacceptable, would run something else instead. That's fine.

Not to be picking on you, but those Lemun Russ' you have in that army are built upon Chimera platforms. There is much more chance to confuse an opponent there than with oddly colored yet still properly armed marines. Also, who is to say that there isn't an ultramarine blue colored SW successor chapter, that does not adorn itself in wolfy wolf pelts, and wolf teeth, with wolf bones hanging all about them?

helium42 wrote:

As has already been pointed out, the reason this is less confusing is that the models are unlike anything else. I take great pains with my counts-as armies to make sure they're as obvious and rigidly WYWIWYG as possible, and that my opponents don't ever have to ask what a model 'represents', since it's obvious. Still, if I took one of those armies to a tournament, I'd check first, and if told that they would be unacceptable, would run something else instead. That's fine.

Not to be picking on you, but those Lemun Russ' you have in that army are built upon Chimera platforms. There is much more chance to confuse an opponent there than with oddly colored yet still properly armed marines. Also, who is to say that there isn't an ultramarine blue colored SW successor chapter, that does not adorn itself in wolfy wolf pelts, and wolf teeth, with wolf bones hanging all about them?

You REALLY think those look more like Chimeras than Leman Russes? That it's not obvious? If that's the call then OK, then I'll happily bring another army. No worries. And can I expect the same of anyone fielding Ultramarines as Space Wolves?

Again, my point is that because 'oddly coloured' marines look very similar, they are confusing. BECAUSE they look very similar, they are confusing. I know they're almost the same models. I know they're armed the same and wearing power armour. That is why it's confusing.

And if we go down the fluff route, who's to say there isn't a Space Wolf successor chapter that have streamlined their armour, lost their wolf pelts, and figured out a way to create female space marines. Hey presto, my SoB army are now Space Wolves! Tournament legal! Hurrah! One of the good things about 40k is that fluff can justify anything - I'm talking about what it's acceptable to ask your opponent to have to do in addition to just playing the game, and at what point that gives you an unfair advantage.

As long as they tell you which codec they are using it's not an unfair advantage any more than Tau plasma not having the 'gets hot' rule.

ArbitorIan wrote:

helium42 wrote:

As has already been pointed out, the reason this is less confusing is that the models are unlike anything else. I take great pains with my counts-as armies to make sure they're as obvious and rigidly WYWIWYG as possible, and that my opponents don't ever have to ask what a model 'represents', since it's obvious. Still, if I took one of those armies to a tournament, I'd check first, and if told that they would be unacceptable, would run something else instead. That's fine.

Not to be picking on you, but those Lemun Russ' you have in that army are built upon Chimera platforms. There is much more chance to confuse an opponent there than with oddly colored yet still properly armed marines. Also, who is to say that there isn't an ultramarine blue colored SW successor chapter, that does not adorn itself in wolfy wolf pelts, and wolf teeth, with wolf bones hanging all about them?

You REALLY think those look more like Chimeras than Leman Russes? That it's not obvious? If that's the call then OK, then I'll happily bring another army. No worries. And can I expect the same of anyone fielding Ultramarines as Space Wolves?

Again, my point is that because 'oddly coloured' marines look very similar, they are confusing. BECAUSE they look very similar, they are confusing. I know they're almost the same models. I know they're armed the same and wearing power armour. That is why it's confusing.

And if we go down the fluff route, who's to say there isn't a Space Wolf successor chapter that have streamlined their armour, lost their wolf pelts, and figured out a way to create female space marines. Hey presto, my SoB army are now Space Wolves! Tournament legal! Hurrah! One of the good things about 40k is that fluff can justify anything - I'm talking about what it's acceptable to ask your opponent to have to do in addition to just playing the game, and at what point that gives you an unfair advantage.

No, I'm saying your opponent might be confused because they are looking across the table at chimeras, and they're getting lemun russ' instead. That seems like it would be much more distracting than marines of different colors.

If you had appropriately armed battle sisters, they would make good counts-as marines. PA, check, bolter, flamer, converted for whatever other weapon options, check.

- Shenanigans removed. How about we try to keep the discussion a little more civil from here on out? -

This argument only happens with Space Marines and only with Fluff Dictators. A Space Marine is a Space Marine, is a Space Marine.

One set of SMs are Bland, one set of SMs are rowdy vikings, one set of SMs are religious zelots, and one set are blood obsessed vampires, in the end as long as I can Identify which guy has the melta to keep my vehicles away from does it really matter.

It's like girls arguing about fashion: "Like OMG can you believe that Spave Wolf is wearing red, like for sure!!"

UsdiThunder wrote:A Space Marine is a Space Marine, is a Space Marine.

A lump of plastic is a lump of plastic is a lump of plastic.

In the end if, if one of those lumps of plastic have a sign on the base saying that they have a meltagun does it really matter? Why don't we all just play with empty bases with pieces of paper written on them and cardboard boxes as vehicles? That way you can say that those empty bases are SM one day and Necrons the next! Its brilliant!

This HOBBY is as much about the visual component as it is about the gaming component. Calling someone that appreciates the visual aspect more than the gaming aspect a "Fluff Dictator" is about as fair as me calling someone that changes its SM chapter for whatever reason a WAAC gamer...

PhantomViper wrote:

UsdiThunder wrote:A Space Marine is a Space Marine, is a Space Marine.

A lump of plastic is a lump of plastic is a lump of plastic.

In the end if, if one of those lumps of plastic have a sign on the base saying that they have a meltagun does it really matter? Why don't we all just play with empty bases with pieces of paper written on them and cardboard boxes as vehicles? That way you can say that those empty bases are SM one day and Necrons the next! Its brilliant!

This HOBBY is as much about the visual component as it is about the gaming component. Calling someone that appreciates the visual aspect more than the gaming aspect a "Fluff Dictator" is about as fair as me calling someone that changes its SM chapter for whatever reason a WAAC gamer...

The point is that there is a game and there is a hobby. In the game there is no mention in the BRB that your models need to be painted in a certain way to use it as a model representing a specific chapter. In the Hobby yes there is a understood rule that a blood angel is red with blood drop iconography. Most of the people supporting the idea of using SM models to represent different chapters are gamers and value the the game more so than the Hobby or the Fluff.

When did winning become so distasteful? Why is Dakka's kneejerk reaction to someone purposely trying to win to cal them WAAC gamers. Did I miss the memo where Yak said "ok guys, If you want to win you are a WAAC player"?

If the tournament has it stated that models be WYSIWYG and Must be painted to table top standards then yes it is required that your Blood Angels are painted as them or one of their successor chapters. If not, then your Blood Angel models can step in for your Space Wolves.

And yes if you are in a tournament and there is no painting requirement and you give another player a hard time about his red Wolves, then you are a Fluff Dictator. You are imposing your opinion of the Fluff over another player trying to enjoy a GAME.

UsdiThunder wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

UsdiThunder wrote:A Space Marine is a Space Marine, is a Space Marine.

A lump of plastic is a lump of plastic is a lump of plastic.

In the end if, if one of those lumps of plastic have a sign on the base saying that they have a meltagun does it really matter? Why don't we all just play with empty bases with pieces of paper written on them and cardboard boxes as vehicles? That way you can say that those empty bases are SM one day and Necrons the next! Its brilliant!

This HOBBY is as much about the visual component as it is about the gaming component. Calling someone that appreciates the visual aspect more than the gaming aspect a "Fluff Dictator" is about as fair as me calling someone that changes its SM chapter for whatever reason a WAAC gamer...

The point is that there is a game and there is a hobby. In the game there is no mention in the BRB that your models need to be painted in a certain way to use it as a model representing a specific chapter. In the Hobby yes there is a understood rule that a blood angel is red with blood drop iconography. Most of the people supporting the idea of using SM models to represent different chapters are gamers and value the the game more so than the Hobby or the Fluff.

When did winning become so distasteful? Why is Dakka's kneejerk reaction to someone purposely trying to win to cal them WAAC gamers. Did I miss the memo where Yak said "ok guys, If you want to win you are a WAAC player"?

If the tournament has it stated that models be WYSIWYG and Must be painted to table top standards then yes it is required that your Blood Angels are painted as them or one of their successor chapters. If not, then your Blood Angel models can step in for your Space Wolves.

And yes if you are in a tournament and there is no painting requirement and you give another player a hard time about his red Wolves, then you are a Fluff Dictator. You are imposing your opinion of the Fluff over another player trying to enjoy a GAME.

Read the thread, or re-read the thread if you've already done it once. No one in this entire thread is stating that using your blue space marines as BA is illegal or against WYSIWYG. You are perfectly within your right to do so in any tournament that you want. Even if they are complete with Ultramarines iconography you can still legally use them as SW in a tournament, no one is disputing this.

Since I no longer play in 40K tournaments, I'm also in my right to refuse to play against such armies.

And I've never said that if someone wants to win he is a WAAC player, in fact I've said that calling people WAAC players for changing their SM chapter was ridiculous.

PhantomViper wrote:
Since I no longer play in 40K tournaments, I'm also in my right to refuse to play against such armies.

You're absolutely right-you can refuse to play anyone based on whatever reason you want (army list, FW models, color, you don't like how they look). But by the same token, if you told me you wouldn't play me because my SW army is made up of regular tactical marines that are WYSIWYG with items, but I don't use wolf models because I hate them, then chances are you're somebody I don't want to even talk to, let alone play a game with. It's a shoe that can go on either foot-you can refuse, but so can we, for whatever reason we want, and we may both think the other person's argument is ridiculous. I, personally, will play against any Space Marine in any paint scheme. If you choose not to, it's your fair call. Just understand that about 75% (guestimate-no concrete evidence of this number) of the people in the world will disagree with you.

PhantomViper wrote:Read the thread, or re-read the thread if you've already done it once. No one in this entire thread is stating that using your blue space marines as BA is illegal or against WYSIWYG. You are perfectly within your right to do so in any tournament that you want. Even if they are complete with Ultramarines iconography you can still legally use them as SW in a tournament, no one is disputing this.

No but they have been called lazy and cheap, among other things. Its typical in these threads though.

timetowaste85 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Since I no longer play in 40K tournaments, I'm also in my right to refuse to play against such armies.

You're absolutely right-you can refuse to play anyone based on whatever reason you want (army list, FW models, color, you don't like how they look). But by the same token, if you told me you wouldn't play me because my SW army is made up of regular tactical marines that are WYSIWYG with items, but I don't use wolf models because I hate them, then chances are you're somebody I don't want to even talk to, let alone play a game with. It's a shoe that can go on either foot-you can refuse, but so can we, for whatever reason we want, and we may both think the other person's argument is ridiculous. I, personally, will play against any Space Marine in any paint scheme. If you choose not to, it's your fair call. Just understand that about 75% (guestimate-no concrete evidence of this number) of the people in the world will disagree with you.

Funilly enough, there is currently a 40k tournament being organized over here where the TO specifically forbade a guy that wanted to use "normal" SM as Space Wolves (and no, I had absolutely nothing to do with that decision, like I've stated I no longer take part in 40K tournaments). So it might just be a cultural thing as well.

I wouldn't mind a Marine army playing as various marine types... but Orks as Marines or Marines as Eldar I would be very 'eeeeh' about.

My reasoning? I play the game as an immersive experience: I'm not competitive, nor am I much of a gamer. I just like a story 'n' a narrative and models are a big part of that. It's the same reason why I like to play against painted armies; it just detracts from the experience otherwise.

Flavor-wise it fits perfectly to use any space marine from any box as a space marine from any chapter's codex. Even fluff nazis should be fine with a purple army built with non-SW specific iconography being used as Space Wolves provided that they follow a consistent color theme and match wargear. If I want to create my own successor chapter and model them the way I see them, that should be fine. The current fluff that exists for 40k is not all encompassing. Maybe my successor chapter shares the Space Wolve's geneseed and tactics, but recruits from different kinds of worlds. maybe my successor chapter always wears helmets unlike Space Wolves models because they don't go into battle naked. Whatever the reason, I fail to see why someone's creativity should be punished. It's my successor chapter, I create the fluff, and even games workshop encourages this.

Don't complain because I refuse to follow some cookie cutter rigid ideology.

i have a friend who plays necrons and he regularly has to use empty bases for wraiths (they are just out of phase).

Space Marine Dreadnoughts and sentinels as Triarch Stalkers. etc.

why do i allow this some of you ask? because he is going to college he can't afford a ton of new models not to mention some haven't been released.

Look it is the players decision what you will allow but really as long as the opposing player is enjoyable to play against let it go