So I'm in the beginning stages of building what will be my new Tau army (check my other thread for space wolf trades for tau), and I have a question.
How are the stealth suits , how are the tactics , what are some beginning tactics? In general are they worth having in a 1500 point Tau army? I already have 2 broadsides, devilfish, 24 fire warriors etc.
If you DO NOT already own Stealth suits I would give them a miss until the new codex comes out in 2347 AD.
The XV8 Battlesuit is lightyears better to use instead of the Stealth Suits... They can be bought in squads of 3 and kitted out to really shred SM Chapters or Horde Armies.
It is normal practice to maximize these Elite slots with 3 Groups of 3 using the most common loadouts:
DeathRains, FireStorms, Helios and Fireknives....
The ONLY use I see Stealthsuits is for a sneaky Markerlight unit that can sit far away and light up targets... Other than that they just aren't as competitive as the XV8's
Take that with a grain of salt though.... You are always at liberty to field a Tau however you like! =]
Stealth marker teams is one of the most common ways to run them. This takes 3 suits, leader with 2 marker drones, his two friends with 4 gun drones, and if you want, a markerlight on the leader as well. Effectively immune to shooting since you can jump into markerlight range (36 inches) and then jump out. Anyone that has to roll night fight, will never, ever see them.
Stealth suits are a viable alternative to str 5 for the tau. They shoot and move, stay out of range easily, and are more resiliant to shooting and melee than fire warriors. Furthermore they don't need a devilfish to keep moving at a decent rate, and with gun drones in the unit, they blast everything easily.
Running fusion guns is something I wouldn't do unless it's the smallest team possible. They shouldn't be getting close, if you need fusion, piranha with that, battlesuits and railguns should be doing the job.
One of my favorite ways to run them is 6 stealth teams, with 2 marker drones and 10 gun drones. Expensive, but hellishly effective. With markerlight support, you can actually pin anything, even paladins.
Here is one of my 1500 lists where I use my stealth suits. I actually don't use battlesuits in any of my lists anymore, if you were wondering why I was lacking them in the list.
Shadowsun
6 Stealth team with team lead, bonding, 2 marker drones, 10 gun drones and markerlight
12 Fire warriors with 'ui and bonding
20 Kroot + shaper and 4 hounds
8 Pathfinders and devilfish with pods
3 Broadsides with ASS, team lead, bonding, 2 shield drones, HWbsf and target lock,
Hammerhead with railgun, burst cannons, pods, multi-tracker, target lock, bsf
Unless you have a truly devious plan, that somehow plugs the holes in your line that the XV8's used to fill, keep away from stealth suits.
Juraigamer is right in the way he recommends using the suits though. If you are taking them, use them as markerlight mules.
I could also see you taking 1 or 2 squads of stealthsuits if you wanted to max Piranha and were planning to fill in your XV8 suits with max HQ + leftover elite slots. It would be expensive though, and you might find you won't be able to afford effective heavy support options.
I think stealth suits could be used as a nice alpha strike unit. Start 18 inches away, jump 12, markerlight a tank then fusion gun it. Then skip back into cover or something.
juraigamer wrote: you can jump into markerlight range (36 inches) and then jump out.
IIRC markerlights are heavy weapons, so you can't move and shoot (they should really be Assualt 1).
Stealth suits are relentless, this confers to the drones. It works just fine.
Happygrunt wrote:I think stealth suits could be used as a nice alpha strike unit. Start 18 inches away, jump 12, markerlight a tank then fusion gun it. Then skip back into cover or something.
It's better to take 3 suits, 1 with fusion and just deep strike in, so long as you have a pathfinder fish on the table.
juraigamer wrote: you can jump into markerlight range (36 inches) and then jump out.
IIRC markerlights are heavy weapons, so you can't move and shoot (they should really be Assualt 1).
I was under the impression that the drones gained the unit type of the unit that they joined. So, if they joined a squad with the relentless special rule, they would then gain relentless.
As far as drones joined units of suits are concerned, the only case where the drones cannot move and shoot is if they are attacked to broadside battlesuits. As the XV88s do not have access to relentless, and may only move with ASS (which in the FAQ clearly states the drones do not acquire).
^ Huh, I wasn't aware of the drones attached gaining relentless as well. I am definitely going to have a go with a unit of suits. Thanks for the great info dakites.
Remember it's because they gain the unit type of who has their drone controller, so broadsides can't move and shoot their drones since they are just infantry, not jet pack infantry.
I use stealthsuits to provide mobile fire support for my fire warriors, or to roll up the enemy back line through outflanking. They basically do the same job as fire warriors but are much more maneuverable. I find a squad of 4 with no upgrades does the job nicely. It has a similar effective firepower rate as an equivalent squad of fire warriors, but can more easily stay out of charge range and always counts as being in cover if you mis-judge it a bit. The 12 fire warriors can get better fire power wihtin 12" but at that stage you're in real danger of being CC'd to death.
If you're rolling up a flank the stealth field also helps protect them from longer ranged heavy weapon fire from more remote enemy units.
I'll echo the sentiments here - If you have an elite slot a SMT (stealth marker team) is a good investment. I favor them for markerlights more than pathfinders, even though they're more expensive per light. The stealth field keeps them safe from long-range firepower, and their mobility allows them to shoot and retreat as threats close in. Pathfinders, on the other hand, sit with a big 'shoot or assault me!' sign on their backs and need to be protected by a wall of kroot or some blocking piranhas. When you factor in the protective costs of such units the points costs start to come back in line with one another.
Stealth fusion teams are just too fragile to me - they're only t3 with 1 wound each, and you need to be within 6" to get the best effect from your fusion gun...which means you'll effectively be in range for your enemy on their turn. To spend an elite slot on a suicide melta gun, do it with a deep striking crisis suit and make the fusion gun twin-linked. 47 points.
The major problem with stealth teams is they compete with crisis teams, which is the offensive bread and butter of the army. You can get marker lights elsewhere in a less important slot (pathfinders) and you can get fusion guns in a better place too (piranha). Their small arms is of a variety that you should care less about. S5 fire is everywhere in tau, and honestly isn't very scary for your most common enemies (marine varients).
So you have an underwhelming firepower unit with special abilities that can be acquired elsewhere in the most important slot for an army that has a hard time finding better than S5 shooting. Yeah, not really seeing the point of buying marker lights when your taking them cuts into the number of units that would benefit from using the marker lights. Its like removing the barrels of you guns to fit a better sight. Or replacing your armies howitzers for more glorified .22's
I like stealth teams as gundrone units. As a skirmish force with 30 total s5 shots for 300 points, with 12 of those shots twin linked and pinning, the stealth team is your best bet to use marklights to improve.
IE, with a squad of pathfinders helping with 4 markerlight hits, 2 go to BS upgrades and 2 go to make pinning better, or strip cover back. Your looking at around 16 wounds to an enemy unit, with a pinning or reduced cover save to boot. Its about the safest way to kill encroaching infantry, as rapidfire weapons from troops have only half the safe engagement range of stealth suits. Imagine pinning Draigo's 10 man paladin unit, for example.
The stealth markerlight unit is not a terrible idea, but with points so hard to find, and pathfinders not bad units, I feel we should use the stealth team to focus on what only they can do.
I have learned one key fact, NOTHING beats a fire warrior.
make sure you have 24-36 firewarriors IN EVERY LIST.
yes caps.
That is so much fire, one of my favorite 1500 point lists had 72 firewarriors.
they can shoot from turn one, people will instinctivally get close be cause thats where they are weak. this way you do not need kroot
also take more hammer heads.
like 2 or 3 they will do what the broadsides do just as well. and attact way more fire. most importantly they work well on troops too!
Keep the stealth suits. they rock make sure to deep strike them.
Ditch the drones on them though. on the table that unit will look so large that people will love to target it. make them forget about the suits and focus on the tanks.
Pop the tanks
use firewarriors and stealth suits to take out all there troops choices first, thus ensuring victory in any game where there are objectuives to take.
More firewarriors is like my motto for tau. I personaly belive that points for points they are the best model on the table.
Stealth suits are really cool they just cost so many points that could be used elsewhere. But they are a really good unit that's capiable of inflicting serious damage on your enemy. If you do take them, i say run them with a lot of FW's that gives you the potential to shoot at your enemy with 24 to 36 str 5 ap 5 30'' guns. That's just sick.
I have learned one key fact, NOTHING beats a fire warrior.
make sure you have 24-36 firewarriors IN EVERY LIST.
yes caps.
That is so much fire, one of my favorite 1500 point lists had 72 firewarriors.
they can shoot from turn one, people will instinctivally get close be cause thats where they are weak. this way you do not need kroot
also take more hammer heads.
like 2 or 3 they will do what the broadsides do just as well. and attact way more fire. most importantly they work well on troops too!
Keep the stealth suits. they rock make sure to deep strike them.
Ditch the drones on them though. on the table that unit will look so large that people will love to target it. make them forget about the suits and focus on the tanks.
Pop the tanks
use firewarriors and stealth suits to take out all there troops choices first, thus ensuring victory in any game where there are objectuives to take.
More firewarriors is like my motto for tau. I personaly belive that points for points they are the best model on the table.
Not sure if serious..
If you're playing primarily horde-based, FNP-less, armies then sure, what you're saying here is (semi) correct. On the other hand if you're facing a typical 6+ razorback marine force, or god forbid an 8+ razorback FNP blood angel force, you're going to be in for a nasty surprise.
People are getting into assault too fast in today's game, firewarriors are just looking to get wrecked.
Thrawn2600 wrote: firewarriors and stealth suits to take out all there troops choices first, thus ensuring victory in any game where there are objectuives to take
I completely agree with this line of thinking. However, due to GW's (questionable) decision to allow non troop/scoring units to be allowed to contest objectives, it does not ensure victory. It does greatly increase your chances to be completely fair though.
If you spend 600+ points on fire warriors, it's a losing proposition. If you want horde tau at least take the more economical and versatile kroot. Kroot shoot almost as good(better for money on most targets) as firewarriors in practice and can even melee to boot. They're better in cover. They can be good in melee if they charge and hit first. Hell, they can infiltrate and outflank.
The problem with fire warriors is that having a good basic weapon isn't worth anything because 40k is decided by special weapons, and fire warriors can't do that. They can't shoot from devilfishes, and they can't take anything interesting.
Kroot can't, either, but at least they don't pay a premium for BS3 expensive-but-not-great shooting.
Real quick: Fire Warrior's only use is making the Devilfish Scoring.
Stealth Suits are good for mowing down Guard/Orkz/other 5+ armor gribbles, but you can kit the crisis suits to do the same thing.
The suits are really our Bread and Butter right now. Not taking every elite slot with Crisis suits can hurt (note: CAN. If you have more success rocking out with 18 stealth suits and shadowsun instead of 9 crisis suits and one XV8 Commander, more power to ya.).
Now if you like the models and are going to run an Anti infantry Crisis suit squad, you could use the Stealth Suits instead. Or you could use them as Markerlight platforms.
I don't play Tau, but their markerlighting capability makes them a pain in the ass that cannot be ignored. I'd say take them, for Tau, every markerlight seems worth it.
There seems to be quite a lot of questionable advice popping up in this thread.
Really, if you want the markerlights use Pathfinders. In the vast (vast) majority of circumstances having more XV8 suits is exponentially more productive than having stealthsuits.
Also, not every markerlight counts. Yes, they are extremely useful but there comes a point where you reach a level of saturation, and you find yourself at the end of your shooting phase with unused markerlight tokens. Sacrificing your capacity for XV8's by replacing them with stealthsuits will exacerbate this problem even further. Who uses markerlight tokens the most? Hammerheads, XV88s and XV8s (at least in the current edition). So you take out your XV8s and replace them with stealthsuits with markerlights, not only have you decreased your capacity to usefully consume markerlight tokens, but you've also increased the number of potentially unused markerlight tokens being left at the end of your turn.
With Tau we need to play as efficiently as possible. All of our units cost to much to do otherwise.
Eh, I've only played against pathfinders once and they got mowed down ridiculously quickly. The stealth suits seemed to be a much better choice with their ability to hop back behind cover. (but I'll agree they eat up valuable crisis suit space unfortunately, I'd like to see stealth suits become a fast attack option).
They do tend to die incredibly quickly as they are really nothing more than painfully small squads of FW with heavy weapons. Even cowering in cover, loosing two can send the whole squad off running.
If stealthsuits were a fast attack choice we would most definitely see them used more often.
Unfortunately, the fact is, even with their increased survivability and mobility the cost of losing a squad of XV8s is too great. We will have to make do with pathfinders (for now).
Yes tetras in the codex would make pathfinders obsolete, however.
And while it's not optimal, we can take XV8 Suits in HQ slots as well as Elite, so losing 1 possible suit team for a stealth team won't be terribad unless you REALLY want to run 15 crisis suits and can only run 12 in such a list.
Everybody I play targets my pathfinders first - they just don't live long enough to be very helpful to the rest of the army. Compare that to stealth suits, who stay out of 36" range until it's time to jump up, tag something with some markerlights, and then jump away to remain safe from long-range shooting. Pathfinders just cannot do that, so while they are cheap platforms for ML's, they also die cheaply.
Sometimes the old adage 'you get what you pay for' makes sense. Also for the same points as a Shas'el and 3 Firestorm crisis suits, the 6 XV25 + 12 Gun Drone squad puts out more s5 shooting and has the same long-range defense the stealth suit provides. Should someone target this 18-model unit because of it's large and ominous size, they'll be reminded that night-fight always applies and many of their shots will lack range, thus wasting a shooting phase. I think that is a good thing, not a bad one. Just food for thought.
Even with no tetras I still wouldnt field Pathfinders....
Although since FW is 100% legal to use... I just bring a print out with me of the rules... mostpeople who play against Tau dont complain they already know the codex is weak so 1 little extra perked up unit is ok...
If you're playing primarily horde-based, FNP-less, armies then sure, what you're saying here is (semi) correct. On the other hand if you're facing a typical 6+ razorback marine force, or god forbid an 8+ razorback FNP blood angel force, you're going to be in for a nasty surprise.
People are getting into assault too fast in today's game, firewarriors are just looking to get wrecked.
Absolutaly serious...
So lets do some math. lets say i have 72 shots. half those hit now 36. that 6 glances turn one on rinos. 6 glances will slow them down. the hammer heads / stealth suits are not included in that. I like using an all burst cannon unit of bare bones stealth suits and infiltrate just to pop tranports.
Also in that list i had my shas'o with missle pods. That helped. autocannons rip rhinos.
also think about this. lets say they are assult geared no matter what i get a rapid fire round before assult. most assult geared armies will not harass you much before assult. if anything losing more than one unit is unlikely (this close distance really melee based army we are talking about here) 60 X 2 rapid fire shots. 120 dice. I fielded this list a lot. I am not trolling or talking hypothetical. 120 dice focus fired into a squad leaves it dead. regardless or what it is. termies have been whiped, huge squads of 'gaunts, i mean everything. even if i have to move closer that one big rapid fire is decimating.
I got pounded by an all khorne army once. because my shas'o and hamerheads failed to hit anything for 2 turns
also its 6 markerlights. do not forget about 6 more marker lights. hitting 6 squads worth of tau on 3's starts to get scarry.
I would hope that 600+ points worth of shooting on one squad would kill it.
I could also get 100 kroot for 700 points, just the kroot, and get more shots, 200 in your rapid fire range, i could field bigger, more resilient units, and even have some melee ability to boot.
Panzeh wrote:I would hope that 600+ points worth of shooting on one squad would kill it.
I could also get 100 kroot for 700 points, just the kroot, and get more shots, 200 in your rapid fire range, i could field bigger, more resilient units, and even have some melee ability to boot.
you could, by the fire warriors got great armour, and can fire for more turns. huge diffrence. try it : ) it works that s5 is important
juraigamer wrote:
6 Stealth team with team lead, bonding, 2 marker drones, 10 gun drones and markerlight
How many points was this unit?
It came to 360 points. It's 2 networked markerlights, 1 markerlight, 6 burst cannons and 10 twin linked pulse rifles, at bs 3 and 2 receptively, of which can reach bs 5 and 4, respectively. It causes my opponents hell.
Flinty wrote:
How do you jump out >.<? what page is it on . I keep hearing about them but never see it
Jet pack moves. They may move 6 inches in the assault phase instead of assaulting. So it's jump forward 6, shoot in shooting phase, jump back 6. Laugh.
Panzeh wrote:I would hope that 600+ points worth of shooting on one squad would kill it.
I could also get 100 kroot for 700 points, just the kroot, and get more shots, 200 in your rapid fire range, i could field bigger, more resilient units, and even have some melee ability to boot.
you could, by the fire warriors got great armour, and can fire for more turns. huge diffrence. try it : ) it works that s5 is important
Except you forget that that those kroot can infiltrate, and therefore have a greater potential threat range than the firewarriors... and that those kroot can also fight in melee and actually win... and those kroot, when in plant based cover (woods/jungles, etc.), get the benefit of a 3+ cover save...
I've fielded your list before... I'd rather field 100 kroot...
Panzeh wrote:I would hope that 600+ points worth of shooting on one squad would kill it.
I could also get 100 kroot for 700 points, just the kroot, and get more shots, 200 in your rapid fire range, i could field bigger, more resilient units, and even have some melee ability to boot.
you could, by the fire warriors got great armour, and can fire for more turns. huge diffrence. try it : ) it works that s5 is important
Except you forget that that those kroot can infiltrate, and therefore have a greater potential threat range than the firewarriors... and that those kroot can also fight in melee and actually win... and those kroot, when in plant based cover (woods/jungles, etc.), get the benefit of a 3+ cover save...
I've fielded your list before... I'd rather field 100 kroot...
with infiltration the threat range is shorter. your right for distance but not time. it takes more turns of movement inside the FW range to engage them. thus the FW will get more shots.
most lists i plauy against will take flames. these are doom for koot. on paper the kroot really seem better. I compleatly agree. I have about 100 kroot. i have fielded it. it does not work as well. I have never met anyone else who fielded 6 troop choices worth of FW and am a little sceptical you actualy did. As most people react to that list as you all have.
A note on Melee with fire warriors. most of the time by the time they get close they lose assult. 3 jump marines on 24 firewarriors. FW every time. If a unit gets charged, i charge a unit of Firewarriors. the sheer numbers work.
yes its not unstoppable. but this list packs way more punch in 1000 points than most give it credit for.
(no stealth suits in 1k though)
I have a 40k night coming up on saturday i may write a battle report for this list : )
Alright, lets explore this concept a little further then.
72 firewarriors = 720p (not including the mandatory shas'ui and bonding knife)
What could 720p get me?
Well, for 543p I could get 3x3 Deathrain suits w/ 2x Shield Drones. Chance to pop a rhino = 2*(1-(0.5*0.5))*(0.33)*(0.33) = 16.3% per suit = 146.7% total
For 678p I could get 3x3 Fireknife suits w/ 2x Shield Drones. Chance to pop a rhino = [2*(0.5)*(0.33)*(0.33)]+[1*(0.5)*(1/6)*(0.33)] = 13.6% per suits = 122.7%
For 696p I could get 6x 14 Kroot, 3 Hound, Carnivore squads. Which are much better at taking objectives, about equal in taking out infantry, unable to pop rhinos
For 855p I could get 3x3 XV88 w/ targets locks, ASS, and 2x Shield drones. No need for math, they absolutely wreck everything they touch.
Of course this is all in vacuum, I'll will concede the point that the suits cannot take objectives, or are they quite as good as murdering GEQ infantry. But with suits, you have the ability to be mobile, meaning you have more turns to shoot. And you also have the advantage of having troops slots to fill with kroot or scorefish FW.
But lets take a look at how effective FW are against marines?
Chance to kill marines = 72*(0.5)*(0.66)*(0.33)=7.84 marines dead per turn.
If they have FNP? = 3.92 marines dead per turn. Think of their investment vs your investment in this case. Also, we're not counting the fact that he has probably killed a few of your FW (and by now, probably had a squad run off of the board)
So, those numbers are unfortunate, why don't we take a look at how good kroot, and suits do against the same enemy.
Kroot chance to kill marines = 6*14*(0.5)*(0.5)*(0.33)= 6.93 marines dead per turn
If they have FNP? = 3.465 marines dead per turn. Again, as these don't have the AP, the return is rather disappointing, but at least kroot have a fighting chance in melee. I will also concede the point that the kroot range is 6" less.
Fireknife (not rapid firing) chance to kill marines = 3*3*2*(0.5)*(5/6)*(0.33) + (3*3*1*(0.5)*(5/6)) = 6.23 marines dead per turn.
With FNP? =3*3*2*0.5*(5/6)*0.33*0.5+(3*3*1*(0.5)*(5/6)) = 4.99 marines dead per turn.
So looking at the data, we can see kroot are approximately as good as FW, possibly less (in a vacuum, not counting their increased mobility, their potential in assault, their lack of an armour save, their phenomenal cover save) due to the fact that they cannot glance vehicles.
Fireknives are not only less points, but also blow FW out of the water in popping vehicles. They have approximately equal results in killing marines, though the increase in dead marines when at rapid fire range is greater for the FW than the FK. This though, is not taking into account the fact that it is much less likely that all 72 FW will be in rapid fire of marine units than the 9 FK.
Compounding all of this is the fact that FW effectively cannot stop ('glancing' does very little) vehicles from advancing across the table, and do not have the mobility to kite them one they do get close. You say that hammerhead and broadside support makes up for this. This is true, but if you're using FK or DR suits then not only do you have the significant vehicle wrecking capability of the suits themselves, but the effectiveness of the hammerheads and broadsides as well (more even, as the suits cost less).
In objective games a gunline FW list will also have trouble, as if the opponent places objectives intelligently, you will be forced to move towards the objectives, effectively decreasing the amount of shots you have, and increasing the chance to be assaulted early.
Really the only distinctive advantages that I can see in utilizing a list of 72 firewarriors is that they have the survivability inherent in having mass amounts of troops. But even then you run the risk of having whole squads run off the board due to their shoddy leadership and placement (naturally for a gunline) within 12" of the edge of the board.
I suppose this was a rather long-winded and ranty post, and my arguments are ordered as well or as concisely as I would like, but I hope you understand the reasons for my aversion to taking that amount of firewarriors.
TL;DR - There are more efficient, effective, and flexible options than FW for the points.
most lists i plauy against will take flames. these are doom for koot. on paper the kroot really seem better. I compleatly agree. I have about 100 kroot. i have fielded it. it does not work as well. I have never met anyone else who fielded 6 troop choices worth of FW and am a little sceptical you actualy did. As most people react to that list as you all have.
I've been playing Tau since 2004... just sayin'. I was a fan of the list in 4th ed/early 5th, but I find its too vulnerable, at least in my meta which is... interesting compared to what the internet representation of the melta-mech meta would lead me to believe is common...
I'm just laughing/crying at people claiming that some of the worst parts of the tau codex are actually the best parts....
Firewarriors are not good. Their weapon is one of the best basic arms, but that is pretty much all they get on one of the worst models in the game. Guard shooting skill, grot WS, necron initiative, ork LD (without mob rule). The only thing they have in their favor is a S5 gun which happens to have the worst gun rules (rapid fire) and their armor (4+is decent, but AP 4 is relatively common). They don't have options to take heavy or special weapons, which is just crippling. This leaves them firing ineffectually at AV 12+ and nearly as poor against AV11. What do they do when somebody rams a stormraven or land raider and its like at the tau line? Nothing, because instead of buying enough crisis teams and broadsides you bought a bunch of useless immobile woundmarkers with a boosted bolter.
Stealth teams are the same way, instead of buying the critical firepower bands/types that tau seriously lack, you go for more S5 shooting and take away slots from units that can actually kill more than orks in the open. For what? Marker lights. A special gimmick that makes rare firepower that tau get (it is rare, better than S5 is hard to get FOC wise) better and more effective. Except you actually took away slots from the firepower you are trying to support.
Why do tau players beat their heads against the wall thinking that S5 is the best, and they need to run more of it? More FW, more Stealth suits, hey, why don't we give our crisis teams burst cannons?!?!
Even the people at Tau Tactica usually aren't usually this bad anymore.
I don't think the jet pack special rule allows for heavy weapons to be fired after they move. I am pretty sure that is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. So for markerlights on stealth suits you would have to remain stationary, fire, then use your free assault move correct?
orz192 wrote:I don't think the jet pack special rule allows for heavy weapons to be fired after they move. I am pretty sure that is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. So for markerlights on stealth suits you would have to remain stationary, fire, then use your free assault move correct?
Page 52: Models with jet packs have the 'relentless' special rule (see page 76).
^Word for word.
I'm with notabot187, this is starting to get ridiculous. People are just mining for reasons to use FW and SS at this point..
Sekminara wrote:If you're playing primarily horde-based, FNP-less, armies then sure, what you're saying here is (semi) correct. On the other hand if you're facing a typical 6+ razorback marine force, or god forbid an 8+ razorback FNP blood angel force, you're going to be in for a nasty surprise.
People are getting into assault too fast in today's game, firewarriors are just looking to get wrecked.
this is my experience- I take 2 Devilfish with 6x FWs inside and keep them in reserve and spam XV8s.
As for the thread- I've always loved pathfinders so I've never used stealth suits as markerlight providers
I have however used them in an infiltrators/objective contesting way and they aren't too good for the points.
I really don't ever see me using up the elite choices on anything but XV8 teams honestly.
notabot187 wrote:Hey, why don't we give our crisis teams burst cannons?!?!
Bladestorms man. Kills infantry better than Fireknives.
So? Tau get volume S5 shooting on anything. Tau have plenty of other places they can find anti infantry fire. And the numbers are pretty close, so its not like its a huge difference. Giving up one of your few light mech killing guns for a weapon that tau can already spam just doesn't make much sense for an army that is strapped for transport popping slots.
I agree, flamers and burst cannons are the dumbest possible weapon options for a crisis suit. If you want that S5 you take those firewarriors or stealth suits... more cost effective and you get more of them (though you do lose out on a unit of crisis in the process)
juraigamer wrote:Wasn't this thread about stealth suits?
Yeah, but you can't talk about stealth suits without bringing up what you give up. Which is crisis suits. And for some reason people give burst cannons to crisis suits. Which is funny since you end up taking crisis teams for better weapon options and end up taking the weapons that stealth teams have. Which aren't very good....
I don't give up a damn thing. I run a tau army with no battle suits and regularly win. You don't need battlesuits, as much as others may think. The only issue is the lack of ap 2 weapons in the army then. Which isn't so bad.
on the stealth-marker problem:
It is stated in the tau 'dex: Stealthsuits are subject to jetpack - relentless. XV8 are subject to jetpacks, but are fitted to decrease reciol, so may fire rapidfire weapons as though they didnt move, but cant shoot heavy weapons.
They get relentless, but their own 'dex strips it off for XV8. Not for XV15 and 25.
I am currently trying to get a hold of the Tau tactics. In a way, a stealth team can be viable, but i wouldnt use more than 1*3 w a marker for the shas'vre and 2 marker drones.
Pathfinders die off to fast for them to be cost effective imo. JSJ is just to viable to be left out, and a mobile marker base is far better for an army. fielding 12 XV8 suits w 3 stealth suits isnt going to bring down the firepower of the Tau, although i would field different lists for MEQ, GEQ, depending on horde or mech type. Against a foot eldar for ex., you would need to kill off than sonowabi** avatar to take away the fearless bouble. Broadsides. The same heavy slot can be fielded vs mech.
If they get +2 extra on bs cause i have a ML-XV25 on the field, all the better.
If you cant field XV88 pointswise, field hammerheads. A foot'dar will rairly have anything that needs to be hit by s6+, so ions can be usefull - ID other eldar than the HQ, WG and WL and bikes. Footdar will die off of the 9*s6 shots - Avatar t6, 4+ to kill, a few rounds to shoot and it is dead, fearless bouble lost.
Against hordes: well, horde armies usually have a backbone mc. Kill that off and then they are dead. Do it w mobile markers, mostly unable to die, have stealth and inf usr w stealth fields - nf rules apply - is just sick.
For MEQ, marking that raider that transports the deathstar of the enemy's list and then executing it with a HIGHER bs and removeing its cover is again sick. And after that, you can still mark the footsluging deathstar off the table.
My idea of a composition is 12*xv8 - usually with enemy based builds - 1sq of 6 fw + a nother fw or a kroot squad - dont like troops of the 'dex much - fill the rest w a sq of 3 xv25 w markers and the rest if i can spare the points, fill up the heavy slot w 1:2 xv88/hh or opposite.
realy my lists are enemy based, so i can't realy make a build that is an all commerce list.
My biggest problem is they arent as shooty as my DE, not as mobile as my mech'dar and DE, and not as an arskicker ass my SoB - they dont perform all that well, i only lost 1*10 BSS+rhino, 1*7BSS and an exorcist ws 1*6 xv25, 3*Railhead, 2*8fw in dtc and a shas'el.
STS, Tau need xv25, but not as much as a new 'dex and not in a greater number than 3 for mmp
I have not used stealth teams much, but my experience has been that they are pretty situational. They are very uneven performers, sometimes they rock, sometimes they suck. Unfortunately 2/3 of the time they suck.
They are fragile and expensive, not a good combination. 30 points is a lot from one BS3 Burst cannon. Since they have to come close to do damage, their stealth field seldom protects them. When they are in shooting range, they usually are also on enemy's shooting and assault range. They die and run easily. If I use them, it's usually very small team just to disrupt the enemy, or larger team with Drones which can maybe do and sustain some damage.
My experience has been that they're most useful in deployments like Spearhead, where there is lot of room to infiltrate them and mess up with enemy plans. And sometimes enemy forgets about the Stealth field, or rolls poorly, and wastes his shooting.
a 3 suit markerteam is only 4 points more than a fb-pr-mt xv8 team, are relentless, pathfinders arent, can use the jsjtac for markers, are bs4 - TA - and have stealth fields. Shooting markers from ~24" after emerging from behind cover, marking and then hideing again...to me, it sound fantastic, although 190 pt for 3 ML may sound expensive, if you can pull it off almost every round until the end of the game, they bring back the points - in math. Pathfinders cant move to shoot ML, have worse saves and dont even benefit from a stealth generator. 96 pt + a dtc. On the minimum its 156, but that dies off very fast for one round of markers. 8 markers one round vs 3*5=15 markers a game for +34 pt. I'd go with it.
chaos0xomega wrote:I agree, flamers and burst cannons are the dumbest possible weapon options for a crisis suit. If you want that S5 you take those firewarriors or stealth suits... more cost effective and you get more of them (though you do lose out on a unit of crisis in the process)
Um, well Bladestorms are all round better and more efficient at killing GEQMEQ and Terminators than Fireknives.
So...
chaos0xomega wrote:I agree, flamers and burst cannons are the dumbest possible weapon options for a crisis suit. If you want that S5 you take those firewarriors or stealth suits... more cost effective and you get more of them (though you do lose out on a unit of crisis in the process)
Um, well Bladestorms are all round better and more efficient at killing GEQMEQ and Terminators than Fireknives.
So...
So? Tau can kill stupid infantry all day long with anything in their list. Hell they could just go with gun drones to do that if they really wanted to go fully stupid. What taking "bladestorms" means is that you think that you can beat mechanized lists with just your heavy support and your piranha. Fire knives give you S7 and S6, which is what you want for stopping light mechanized units like rhinos, raiders, land speeder and side shots on chimeras.
Tau have only 3 targets a turn they can go after with their railguns, and they have a reputation as being "fail guns" for a reason. Cover and misses do happen, and you still need a decent damage roll. Against 8+ AV targets you just won't get it done without at least a turn or two of support from your suits. And the nice thing about fireknives is after the AV is reduced they are still effective against infantry unlike the suicide fusion suits.
Ah yes, one who blindly follows the results of mathhammer calculations and fails to consider the actual tabletop situation, namely the effects of range. (BTW while you are correct it is more efficient that fireknife it is less than Burning Eyes for MEQ and TEQ, unless its TEQ w/ SS) You can believe in your efficiency calculations all you like, the fact of the matter is that for you to be effective you need to get in close, and that is not where you want to be.
In theory, they can fire railguns at 9 different targets.
Then you could have piranha with fusion guns, as well as using two SMT's to launch seeker missiles against lighly armored vehicles After attempting what they could with burst cannons, if needed (and shouldn't until turn 3-4)
Notabot, your thinking of everything in one dimensional terms. Consider the fact of what str 5 against rear armor does. Outflanking stealth suits make this easily possible.
juraigamer wrote:
Notabot, your thinking of everything in one dimensional terms. Consider the fact of what str 5 against rear armor does. Outflanking stealth suits make this easily possible.
a not outflanking xv25 can move 13-18" a turn. that is a LOT, and can get behind the transports. But i would only use them to mark my targets, resorting only to BC as a last option of no escape, lets make it worth our points effort.
A hammerhead w.out its railgun killed an exorcist on 6 rear armor shots
orz192 wrote:I don't think the jet pack special rule allows for heavy weapons to be fired after they move. I am pretty sure that is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. So for markerlights on stealth suits you would have to remain stationary, fire, then use your free assault move correct?
For both units it says that they follow the rules for jetpacks, which gives them relentless. The XV8s, however, have a line at the bottom where it says that they cannot move and fire heavy weapons (which is pointless as you can't equip XV8s with heavy weapons). This line is a leftover from the previous rules (just like all references to target priority tests) where Relentless was not a USR and jet packs just gave you the extra 6" move and move and fire with rapid fire weapons. The line is still pointless without any Heavy Weapon options for XV8s though.
That line isn't at the bottom of the Stealth Suits entry, so they just follow the rules for relentless so they can move and fire heavy weapons.
orz192 wrote:I don't think the jet pack special rule allows for heavy weapons to be fired after they move. I am pretty sure that is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. So for markerlights on stealth suits you would have to remain stationary, fire, then use your free assault move correct?
For both units it says that they follow the rules for jetpacks, which gives them relentless. The XV8s, however, have a line at the bottom where it says that they cannot move and fire heavy weapons (which is pointless as you can't equip XV8s with heavy weapons). This line is a leftover from the previous rules (just like all references to target priority tests) where Relentless was not a USR and jet packs just gave you the extra 6" move and move and fire with rapid fire weapons. The line is still pointless without any Heavy Weapon options for XV8s though.
That line isn't at the bottom of the Stealth Suits entry, so they just follow the rules for relentless so they can move and fire heavy weapons.
Spoiler:
enfernux wrote:on the stealth-marker problem:
It is stated in the tau 'dex: Stealthsuits are subject to jetpack - relentless. XV8 are subject to jetpacks, but are fitted to decrease reciol, so may fire rapidfire weapons as though they didnt move, but cant shoot heavy weapons.
They get relentless, but their own 'dex strips it off for XV8. Not for XV15 and 25.
orz192 wrote:I don't think the jet pack special rule allows for heavy weapons to be fired after they move. I am pretty sure that is specifically mentioned in the rulebook. So for markerlights on stealth suits you would have to remain stationary, fire, then use your free assault move correct?
For both units it says that they follow the rules for jetpacks, which gives them relentless. The XV8s, however, have a line at the bottom where it says that they cannot move and fire heavy weapons (which is pointless as you can't equip XV8s with heavy weapons). This line is a leftover from the previous rules (just like all references to target priority tests) where Relentless was not a USR and jet packs just gave you the extra 6" move and move and fire with rapid fire weapons. The line is still pointless without any Heavy Weapon options for XV8s though.
That line isn't at the bottom of the Stealth Suits entry, so they just follow the rules for relentless so they can move and fire heavy weapons.
Spoiler:
enfernux wrote:on the stealth-marker problem:
It is stated in the tau 'dex: Stealthsuits are subject to jetpack - relentless. XV8 are subject to jetpacks, but are fitted to decrease reciol, so may fire rapidfire weapons as though they didnt move, but cant shoot heavy weapons.
They get relentless, but their own 'dex strips it off for XV8. Not for XV15 and 25.
Previous page.
Yeah I saw that after I'd posted it. Looked through the Errata again in case I'd missed something. By that time all you guys had forged ahead with the discussion.
I'll say that with all the people saying that Crisis suits are the greatest thing ever in the Tau army book, I'm surprised I haven't seen more lists built around Farsight. A 7 man XV8 bodyguard is enough to make any opponent sweat if they deep strike on his flank.
@chaos: drones gain the same unite type as their owners with all their stuff, and if that says, you cant fire heavy weapons, than the marker drone cant fire its marker light if attached to a crisis suit.
@Malus: you take farsight w his bodyguard, ill take a few xv8s and we'll se who wins. xv8s are good in msu, so a sqad of 8 is to juicy a target to ignore, are going to atract most of the fire, and vs platform IG, that is gona be tough loss.
chaos0xomega wrote:i dont see what the point of this argument is... last I checked there was no heavy weapon options available to Crisis Suits...
@Town Called Malus, what would the point of that be though?Compare a 7 man unit to 2-3 3 man units
But you can have that 7 man unit (8 man including Farsight himself) as well as your three Special choices. Plus you get free bonding knives throughout your army, which is nice.
You sacrifice in only being able to have one unit of XV88s, one hammerhead, one skyray, one unit of pathfinders, one unit of Piranhas, one unit of stealth suits and no kroot or vespid.
Equip his bodyguard with Plasma/Missile Pods with Targeting Arrays, Hard Wired multi trackers and target locks and you can put out a devastating amount of firepower against multiple vehicles or focus it onto your opponents hard hitting unit. There is not much which will survive being shot at by 8 rapid firing plasma rifles and 7 missile pods, followed by an assault to let them taste some Dawn Blade.
Against Orks you can wipe out a Warboss and his bodyguard in one turn.
enfernux wrote:
a not outflanking xv25 can move 13-18" a turn. that is a LOT, and can get behind the transports.
You will either be assaulted or the vehicle in question will pivot to deny rear armor. I've assaulted vehicles that didn't move last round with stealth suits and knocked them out, the key to using stealth suits is to be creative.
enfernux wrote:
a not outflanking xv25 can move 13-18" a turn. that is a LOT, and can get behind the transports.
You will either be assaulted or the vehicle in question will pivot to deny rear armor. I've assaulted vehicles that didn't move last round with stealth suits and knocked them out, the key to using stealth suits is to be creative.
But if it pivots to deny rear armour to your Stealth Suits, it is probably exposing it to something else in your army, which will have an equal strength gun at the very least.
Exactly. This is why stealth suits and piranhas work so well together.
Stealth suits infiltrate/outflank, piranhas go 24 inches up the sides of the boards. Place a few seeker missiles on the piranhas, and you will be popping vehicles all day long.
You can't make a tau list without synergy, unless you spam battlesuits and pray your dice work.
chaos0xomega wrote:i dont see what the point of this argument is... last I checked there was no heavy weapon options available to Crisis Suits...
@Town Called Malus, what would the point of that be though?Compare a 7 man unit to 2-3 3 man units
But you can have that 7 man unit (8 man including Farsight himself) as well as your three Special choices. Plus you get free bonding knives throughout your army, which is nice.
You sacrifice in only being able to have one unit of XV88s, one hammerhead, one skyray, one unit of pathfinders, one unit of Piranhas, one unit of stealth suits and no kroot or vespid.
Equip his bodyguard with Plasma/Missile Pods with Targeting Arrays, Hard Wired multi trackers and target locks and you can put out a devastating amount of firepower against multiple vehicles or focus it onto your opponents hard hitting unit. There is not much which will survive being shot at by 8 rapid firing plasma rifles and 7 missile pods, followed by an assault to let them taste some Dawn Blade.
Against Orks you can wipe out a Warboss and his bodyguard in one turn.
So 20 Crisis Suits... Well, thats all well and good, but who the hell has the points for that!? O.o
juraigamer wrote:A moblie tau is a less likely to be dead tau.
In theory, they can fire railguns at 9 different targets.
Then you could have piranha with fusion guns, as well as using two SMT's to launch seeker missiles against lighly armored vehicles After attempting what they could with burst cannons, if needed (and shouldn't until turn 3-4)
Notabot, your thinking of everything in one dimensional terms. Consider the fact of what str 5 against rear armor does. Outflanking stealth suits make this easily possible.
This is one of the reasons why tau get so little respect. The players.
Nobody actually takes 9 broadsides with split fire. The percentages of a single shot doing anything when facing units in cover or smoked is so low that you usually should shoot everything at one target.
Its good that you value piranha with fusion, but then you advocate seeker missiles. There is a seeker missile list, but that list goes all out for seekers to completely demech the enemy turn 1.
Outflanking S5 for anti tank utility is down right silly. The things that have to go right for this to work are pretty bad odds. 1/3 you don't end up where you want. You have to have an opponent that somehow has an unit with their rear armor facing the edge and close to said edge when they know that there are outflankers coming (also known as screwing up twice in one move). Then you have to roll to hit, roll to pen (needing 5s to glance) and hopefully not have cover or smoke to deal with. Then you have to get a worthwhile result on the chart. All that to kill a chimera or rhino. Totally going to give up turns of shooting from units that can threaten from turn one with better guns for that...
juraigamer wrote:Exactly. This is why stealth suits and piranhas work so well together.
Stealth suits infiltrate/outflank, piranhas go 24 inches up the sides of the boards. Place a few seeker missiles on the piranhas, and you will be popping vehicles all day long.
You can't make a tau list without synergy, unless you spam battlesuits and pray your dice work.
then why did you question what i wrote?? Doesnt make sense to me...
@Notabot: yes, outflanking w s5 weapons is a bad idea. Ork Commandos for ex outflanking killed a DE Raider w FF the turn they came in with SHOOTING. Now orks are even worse shooters than tau, so it can happen.
Defkoptaz outflanking is just insane.
Sentinel/A.Sentinels outflanking is a killer.
Vendettas the same.
Most can have better choice of weapons, true. But a marker on that Rhino from the rear, or better so, two markers and an incoming xv88 shooting twin linked bs5?? I'll go with that, and 30" usually covers half of the field by the turn they come in and the enemy is closer to you. But if you're'd like to take output an artilery from greater range, lets say behind trees: mark: removes the cover save and ow...bs4 twin link...nice.
juraigamer wrote:Exactly. This is why stealth suits and piranhas work so well together.
Stealth suits infiltrate/outflank, piranhas go 24 inches up the sides of the boards. Place a few seeker missiles on the piranhas, and you will be popping vehicles all day long.
You can't make a tau list without synergy, unless you spam battlesuits and pray your dice work.
then why did you question what i wrote?? Doesnt make sense to me... @Notabot: yes, outflanking w s5 weapons is a bad idea. Ork Commandos for ex outflanking killed a DE Raider w FF the turn they came in with SHOOTING. Now orks are even worse shooters than tau, so it can happen. Defkoptaz outflanking is just insane. Sentinel/A.Sentinels outflanking is a killer. Vendettas the same. Most can have better choice of weapons, true. But a marker on that Rhino from the rear, or better so, two markers and an incoming xv88 shooting twin linked bs5?? I'll go with that, and 30" usually covers half of the field by the turn they come in and the enemy is closer to you. But if you're'd like to take output an artilery from greater range, lets say behind trees: mark: removes the cover save and ow...bs4 twin link...nice.
You gave a bunch of examples of units that have better than S5 shooting... Deffkoptas S8 twin linked and potentially S7 PK Sentinels, S6 S7 or S8. Also didn't know that armored sentinels could outflank. In fact was pretty sure they couldn't Vendettas S9 with 3 twin linked shots. Your Kommando example got lucky and fired at the weakest and easiest to kill transport in the game short of ork truks. Good job, now do it again.
So now you are using outflanking to put marker lights on something? Wut... Instead of taking a unit that can kill from turn 1 you are now going to outflank so you can at some point team up with one of your few rail guns to kill a rhino. Facing doesn't matter for placing maker lights, why so concerned about putting marker lights on from the rear? Brain hurts so much... Also, who takes artillery? The random guy with a thunderfire cannon who doesn't know they suck yet? Or were you talking about taking out basilisks or something?
In theory, they can fire railguns at 9 different targets.
Nobody actually takes 9 broadsides with split fire.
I bolded the part you didn't understand.
notabot187 wrote:
Outflanking S5 for anti tank utility is down right silly.
Against an armored imperial guard, you would need to outflank your stealth suits. Against ork hordes, you wouldn't. You must think tactically, you can't post like a grey knight player who only thinks of the charge.
And don't insult thunderfire cannons, they are amazing when used properly. It's a shame that most players have the tactical prowess of a 10 year old...
I understood your premise of the 9 targets, its also a pointless and stupid argument since its a poor set up and nobody does it.
Grey knights only charging? What kind of scrubs play around were you play? Grey Knights are a shooting army with decent assault to finish off enemies who wish to close, or can advance with firing for effect, and finish with a charge against enemies who wish to stand off.
Against armored IG, you shouldn't be playing with crappy units like stealth suits because you are already starting out screwed.
Against Ork hordes outflanking stealth suits are actually good for taking out lootas in the corner.
So you advocate taking crap units and throwing them away on bad missions when you need all the quality you can get, and argue against taking a reasonable tactic against one of the few times where it could pay off...
I'll insult Tcannons all day long. They are crap. They were screwed the minute the 5th core book came out with the artillery rules. Further screwed by being only good against hordes in a mech edition. Of all the top armies out there, how many use massed infantry? Don't say orks, they are not a top army, and haven't been for awhile now. Foot guard is the bad way to run them. Some people have success with them, but I question the quality of their opponents. Hell, my bad list for DE erase full 50 man blobs a turn. Fragile weapon systems with only 1 type of target they are good at killing, with that target being the weakest options possible in this rules edition...
Stealth Suits are pretty good, and usually get their points back most of the time, but are out-classed by crisis suit on every level.
The don't have any access range anti vehicle (missile pod) or anti meq (plasma).
They also have lower S and T and less wounds. And less A I think.
Think of it this way. An average crisis suit costs about 50 points. That means you pay twenty points more than a Stealth Suit to double to wounds, add T S A and strut about with weapons that are devastator-level power...firing two a turn.
Stealth suits I mostly use for Apoc where the FOC goes out the window. or for planet strike as an attacker where I have 6 elite slots.
I agree that crisis suits are better than stealth suits, but I would ask what is the crisis suit doing that can be done elsewhere in the army? A few seeker missiles can do a better job than missile pods, as can more railguns, but there is the plasma problem. You can try to get around it with fusion blasters on piranha and tossing railgun shots, but that's really the only weakness for not having battlesuits.
But I ask this, stealth suits have their stealth field rules which is better are keeping the suits alive at long range. I dislike having missiles and lascannons shot at my battlesuits, that die in one hit. There are only three weapons that can be taken on normal battesuits that the army cannot take otherwise. Flamers, something you don't need. Missile pods, anti-light tank weapons, and plasma rifles (which you can get on broadsides, but it's not worth it)
I understood your premise of the 9 targets, its also a pointless and stupid argument since its a poor set up and nobody does it.
No one runs 9 broadsides? Check again.
Grey knights only charging?
Figure of speech, I was stating you weren't thinking enough before you posted
Against armored IG, you shouldn't be playing with crappy units like stealth suits because you are already starting out screwed.
I make all comers lists, to handle anything I'm thrown against. As should you. You don't get to pick who and what you play against in a tournament.
So you advocate taking crap units
I only advocate making the most use of units that are under used. My stealth teams are feared by the guys at my FLGS, only because I use them well.
I'll insult Tcannons all day long. They are crap. They were screwed the minute the 5th core book came out with the artillery rules. Further screwed by being only good against hordes in a mech edition.
Such a low points cost, basically 25 points for a cannon that can do so much? If anyones wasting long range anti-tank weapons against my thunderfire cannons, then they aren't shooting at something else of mine. People use scatterlasers and mutlilasers against light vehicles, thunderfire cannons are basically that, but with a blast instead of a single shot. Their cover ignoring shells help out from time to time, and their tremor rounds have won me many many games. How good is it to force a unit to count as being in terrain, and/or to force terrain tests on vehicles? Very good. Getting charged by something without grenades and forcing it to go at initiative 1 is amazing. I've killed countless dreadknights, dreadnoughts and many many other things by just tossing a single terrain shot on it. I suggest you re-evaulate your conditions for considering something "Bad" because if the only thing your going by is what the net lists spam, your being lead in the wrong direction.
I would take 9 broadsides w/ split fire... its actually the cheapest build for them you can run (the target lock is cheap). Sure it might not be optimal against some builds, but against say DE raiders, thats going to put your opponent into a world of hurt.... You still have the option of combining fire against tougher nuts.
More commonly however, is 9 broadsides at 6 targets, taking other support systems (drone controller?) on 2 out of the three, and then a targetting array w/ hardwired target lock and (maybe) drone controller on the lead.
notabot187 wrote:
You gave a bunch of examples of units that have better than S5 shooting...
and again you miss my point.
notabot187 wrote:
Deffkoptas S8 twin linked and potentially S7 PK Sentinels, S6 S7 or S8. Also didn't know that armored sentinels could outflank. In fact was pretty sure they couldn't
Vendettas S9 with 3 twin linked shots.
AS i said, the usually have better S weapons, but i guess you missed that to. Throw my own admittance back at me with no edge to the blade...c'mon.
notabot187 wrote:
Your Kommando example got lucky and fired at the weakest and easiest to kill transport in the game short of ork truks. Good job, now do it again.
and luck cant happen that often, right? w s5 to the rear armor...ow, you dont outflank and dont have a chance to get rear...im sorry.
notabot187 wrote:
So now you are using outflanking to put marker lights on something? Wut... Instead of taking a unit that can kill from turn 1 you are now going to outflank so you can at some point team up with one of your few rail guns to kill a rhino.
and what can kill turn 1 usually is dead by turn 2. Yes, if i know i can't hide those xv25s on the field, then im going to outflank them, maybe helping to wreck something and get behind it after to get cover???
notabot187 wrote:Facing doesn't matter for placing maker lights, why so concerned about putting marker lights on from the rear? Brain hurts so much... Also, who takes artillery? The random guy with a thunderfire cannon who doesn't know they suck yet? Or were you talking about taking out basilisks or something?
Right on the marker. But do you have to ramble like a loon about it? Just cause you have an ego and think you are better, maybe in a lot of things yess, but that doesnt mean you can ramble about it. Like you never miss used words before, right?
Feal my apathy.
Against mech'guard i'd take 9 broadsides w splitfire anyday.
And again: this topic is about xv25s usefullness or unusefullness, not how cool xv8s are. They are but snap it sheesh.
Further, just cause you dont like/use xv25, doesnt mean they suck. Just in your configuration, they dont work. Well, sue me but a mobile marker platform with survivability for just a bit more than a squad of pathfinders that die after they marked, or even before...i take.
Automatically Appended Next Post: on who takes artilery: mostly IG, behind a wall - and it can happen.
enfernux wrote:
Right on the marker. But do you have to ramble like a loon about it?
Same could be said of yourself.
Does "snap it Sheesh" mean shut up? It was a bit unclear.
Stealth teams are not very useful. In fact I go further and say they mostly suck.
I've given many reason why they suck, many reason why the tactics they are used in are suboptimal.
Talking about stealth teams without talking about crisis suits is kinda weird in my mind, especially considering their is competition for the slots they take up. I've not seen a unfilled elite slot for tau in a long time. When you take stealth teams, you are giving up a crisis team. By doing this you are giving up anti transport ability.
People then go on how awesome rail guns are, and that you can use those to make up for the loss of a crisis team... This is bad since you are paying extra for the privilege of lowering your chances to kill a particular target for the privilege of trying to kill multiple targets. The reason to take 2-3 suits in a squad is the insure the killing of your target. Splitting fire is sometimes called for, but its something to be avoided if possible. The reasons being is railguns are meant to be fired at high priority targets, LRs, stormravens, autolas preds, dreads. Things you pretty much have to kill ASAP. The little units like razors and rhinos and chimeras should be targeted by S6-8 (tau don't get much access to S8, but the point stands) shooting. Diverting broadside support to transport suppression because you wanted stealth teams weakens your list.
Stealth teams have reasonably survivable mobile marker lights, this is true. But you cut out units that would use the marker lights for taking marker lights. I don't really understand this at all. Marker lights aren't all that great anyways. You pay tons of points for a unit that is not even trying to directly kill something so you can fire something else with better effect at that same target. Its not a terrible ability, but you certainly shouldn't be taking them at the expense of firepower units. Which is why pathfinders are the best marker light source. Sure they die easy, and they aren't mobile... but they can get a good view of the board if you deploy well, and any fire coming at them means your shooting teams are not getting shot at.
Then people try to say the burst cannon fire from them is actually pretty good, and can kill things they shouldn't be shooting at in the first place. Yeah, S5 can kill AV 10, especially in volume. But by doing so you are needing to deploy in a manner that takes firepower away from your army (lost turns of shooting while in reserve). You are also potentially throwing the unit away (poor flank roll) or embarking on a suicide run. Nothing wrong about suicide runs, if the risk is worth it. But most often it is not (I've seen far too many rhino killing suicide squads). Tau have good range with most of their units, they shouldn't need to do things like outflank burst cannons to take out fire support units turtled in the corner. If the fusion gun had better range and the stealth teams better movement (though the JSJ tactic is nice, they give up offensive movement for defensive movement) I would like that configuration a bit better, but their not, so I don't like it much.
While I disagree with imrandomhgh about stealth teams being "pretty good" (I think they are almost good, but that in my book means they almost don't suck) I do agree with his statement about them being outclassed by crisis suits. I also agree if it weren't for Tau's FOC I would probably think better of them, and might even advocate their use (if they were FA I would say a squad is a solid thing to take, but they aren't so I don't). Hell, I don't find myself agreeing with him very often but he is pretty spot on about them.
juraigamer wrote:So basically, if stealth suits were fast attack, it would be all flowers and sunshine, in your opinion?
Yeah, they wouldn't be great, but I would take them and would recommend them. They compete against must less important units. For instance 2 squadrons of piranha is plenty. Of course pathfinders would be harder to justify, but maybe they should be troops?
the snap it stand for i know xv8s are the gods of the Tau dex, but this topic aint about that.
on the thought i once made an xv25 w Shadowsun, and it rocked me pals Farsight list. Basically even xv8 cant outlast a volume of 3*9+6*2*3 TL s5 shots, even on ap5. Yep, xv25, all w gundrones, stealth field, and my choice of named HQ. Ok, vs a LR this would to jack sith, but sadly Tau dont have that type of killyness w vehicles, nor that survivability. Tha "TARGET IS HERE" neon ad is still above our railheads.
enfernux wrote:the snap it stand for i know xv8s are the gods of the Tau dex, but this topic aint about that.
on the thought i once made an xv25 w Shadowsun, and it rocked me pals Farsight list. Basically even xv8 cant outlast a volume of 3*9+6*2*3 TL s5 shots, even on ap5. Yep, xv25, all w gundrones, stealth field, and my choice of named HQ. Ok, vs a LR this would to jack sith, but sadly Tau dont have that type of killyness w vehicles, nor that survivability. Tha "TARGET IS HERE" neon ad is still above our railheads.
Shadowsun? Fluffy and all, but not a very good special character. And why would your friend hurt themselves so much by taking a Farsight list? Eh, I guess it doesn't matter as long as everybody is having fun. Its just hard to take seriously any of the tau special characters.
With going against railheads as a marine player I've learned to just laugh at them. I don't even shoot them unless I don't have devilfish or piranha to shoot at. A single shot railgun against my raider isn't all that important compared to dealing with units that are trying to win the game (objectives) or have a higher kill percentage against me (piranha melta attacks). Railheads kill 1 target a round, if they are lucky. Their real danger IMHO is the sub-munition.
Not to hijack the thread, but if you were to go to Youtube and look up Miniwargaming you will see a batrep between a large stealth suit tau army (like 24 FW, 1 HH, and 1 Battlesuit and a lot of stealth suits) facing off against some blood angels, they did pretty good! But they still lost...anyway this might help or hurt the argument, I would post the link but I am at school and blocked...
Shadowsun? Fluffy and all, but not a very good special character. And why would your friend hurt themselves so much by taking a Farsight list? Eh, I guess it doesn't matter as long as everybody is having fun. Its just hard to take seriously any of the tau special characters.
With going against railheads as a marine player I've learned to just laugh at them. I don't even shoot them unless I don't have devilfish or piranha to shoot at. A single shot railgun against my raider isn't all that important compared to dealing with units that are trying to win the game (objectives) or have a higher kill percentage against me (piranha melta attacks). Railheads kill 1 target a round, if they are lucky. Their real danger IMHO is the sub-munition.
Well the sub munition is the only reason anyone takes railhead anyways. If it didn't have that then it would be far, far outclassed by ionheads, melta-cannon heads, skyrays and broadsides.
And Farsight vs. Shadowsun isn't even a contest. If Farsight didn't have his stupid rule which limits your broadsides and hammerheads and all that good stuff, he would actually be a fairly strong choice for a character. As it is, he is still better than Shadowsun. His plasma rifle can kill her in one shot.
0.66 chance to hit, 0.83 chance to wound, 0.5 chance to pen invul. x2=0.55 Better than fifty percent chance to kill Shadowsun with shooting alone. Plus, he would break her in CC.
Just saying, Shadowsun could one shot farsight easier than farsight could one shot Shadowsun.
She has better BS, three extra wounds(yay drones), Stealthfield, Shield gen, and two fusion Blasters.
In CC, he would win. But she could prolly take him out in shooting playing the Wound Allocation game.
When I did use Stealth Suits( when I first started tau around the start of 5th) My dice hated me and the only time my StealthSuits would kill anything was in CC. But they would always win CC if there was even the slightest chance of it happening.
Now I run 3 Bladestorms(PR/BC), 3 Fireknives(PR/MP), and 3 Deathrains(TLMP/BSF) with a Centurion Commander (Shas'el w CiB/PR/TA). The Bladestorms focus on infantry, Deathrains on Transports and MCs, and Fireknives to support whichever squad needs more... well support. This has worked well for me both on vassal and IRL.
The Reason I dropped the Stealth Suits was because they were pretty much really expensive kroot at the end of the day (YMMV). So I dropped them for the Bladestorms and more kroot, since kroot really do the Stealth Suit's( speedbump, not markerlights) job for about a 1/3 of the points. Even less if you gave all the Steathsuits TA like I did.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Just saying, Shadowsun could one shot farsight easier than farsight could one shot Shadowsun.
She has better BS, three extra wounds(yay drones), Stealthfield, Shield gen, and two fusion Blasters.
In CC, he would win. But she could prolly take him out in shooting playing the Wound Allocation game.
But Farsight could outrange her. 12" fusion blasters vs 24" Plasma Rifle. They're both equally mobile so theoretically there's no way Shadowsun could get in range. She has Stealth but as the average vision range for night fighting is 21" Farsight could still easily just keep out of range of her guns whilst still blasting her. Her drones will die eventually.
@Malus: yes, if you are so dumb to go on a plain line against farsight. farsight 24" 4/6(hit)*5/6(wound)*3/6(invul)=.27 to kill shadowsun w.out drones. 12" double the chance, so .54 is good. But thank god for wound alocation. Shadowsun cant kill farsight from 24", but has the same chance from 12".
on my math, before someone sais AGAIN its wrong: im calculateing with the how many chances on a d6 you have to roll to do it, so i dont think it is wrong.
enfernux wrote:@Malus: yes, if you are so dumb to go on a plain line against farsight.
farsight 24" 4/6(hit)*5/6(wound)*3/6(invul)=.27 to kill shadowsun w.out drones.
12" double the chance, so .54 is good. But thank god for wound alocation. Shadowsun cant kill farsight from 24", but has the same chance from 12".
on my math, before someone sais AGAIN its wrong: im calculateing with the how many chances on a d6 you have to roll to do it, so i dont think it is wrong.
Well with true line of sight it's going to be difficult to not be in a position where he can see you. If he stands in the middle of the most open bit of the board then you're going to have to go into the open to get at him and then he'll start to move-fire-move to keep Shadowsun at range.
1: The line in the taudex about the Heavy Weapons doesn't stop relentless, if it did the relentless gained from the Advanced Stabilisation System becomes irrelevant.
2: I've found that Stealth suits are a little overpriced in standard 40k.
BUT, I've found they are amazing in Apocalypse games.
Being everything can hold objectives, and Stealth Suits have Stealth, they can have each have 2 shield drones and take a markerlight.
3 Suits, 6 Shield Drones, 1 guy with a markerlight and targetting array, sat on an objective will generally get ignored in the insane free-for-all of the Apoc-y-ness - meaning once the smoke clears you've got a decent chance of winning
3: It's best to run 2 Railheads and 2-3 Broadsides. The broadsides Railguns are great for tanks, but less so for troops.
A Railheads true potential lies more in its large blast. While I've on occasion switched to solid slug for mine and they HAVE done decent damage to when they hit, dropping Str6 large blasts each turn is better It's also a LOT cheaper.
@Ovion the connecting part from the 'dex (pg27): The battlesuits are designed to compesate for the recoil of light weapon fire, so they do not count as moveing when fireing rapid fire weapons. This ability does not extend to heavy weapons, however, and the user must be stationary to fire them.
XV8-XV88. BUT NOT xv15 and 25. So even though they have relentless, they still cant fire. But duno if that extends to drones, im just reading that part, and it only sais as owner. So in my read, if owner is a jump infantry by the cause of anything, it only becomes jump infantry, but not Jet Pack JI. Or it becomes jump infantry w anything the owner has to throw at it(??).
about ASS: it says than you may fire as thoug stationary, so overwrites the XV suit rule.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Just saying, Shadowsun could one shot farsight easier than farsight could one shot Shadowsun.
She has better BS, three extra wounds(yay drones), Stealthfield, Shield gen, and two fusion Blasters.
In CC, he would win. But she could prolly take him out in shooting playing the Wound Allocation game.
When I did use Stealth Suits( when I first started tau around the start of 5th) My dice hated me and the only time my StealthSuits would kill anything was in CC. But they would always win CC if there was even the slightest chance of it happening.
Now I run 3 Bladestorms(PR/BC), 3 Fireknives(PR/MP), and 3 Deathrains(TLMP/BSF) with a Centurion Commander (Shas'el w CiB/PR/TA). The Bladestorms focus on infantry, Deathrains on Transports and MCs, and Fireknives to support whichever squad needs more... well support. This has worked well for me both on vassal and IRL.
The Reason I dropped the Stealth Suits was because they were pretty much really expensive kroot at the end of the day (YMMV). So I dropped them for the Bladestorms and more kroot, since kroot really do the Stealth Suit's( speedbump, not markerlights) job for about a 1/3 of the points. Even less if you gave all the Steathsuits TA like I did.
I run almost the exact same suits, except I run two bladestorm+ as bodyguards (same-ish cost) for the centurion. My reason: They do the same amount of hits a turn, and because the centurion on his own would get killed, and I don't want to put him with three suits (That many bodies gets clunky). The cons are that ID is a bigger problem and less wounds, but this is just how I prefer to run them (Plus, I already painted them with Shas'vre marking and don't want to change it/buy another suit).
And I used to run stealth suit but I realized how much Str5 there already is in the army. Plus, they fire three times the rounds a FW fires, at the same BS, and three times the price, but without the ability to turn that 3 shots into 6 shots in 12"> and without 30" range. Only their 3+ and JSJ gives them any advantage over FW, and still not enough to make up for it. Plus,. FW suck, so what does that mean for SS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ovion wrote:1: The line in the taudex about the Heavy Weapons doesn't stop relentless, if it did the relentless gained from the Advanced Stabilisation System becomes irrelevant.
2: I've found that Stealth suits are a little overpriced in standard 40k.
BUT, I've found they are amazing in Apocalypse games.
Being everything can hold objectives, and Stealth Suits have Stealth, they can have each have 2 shield drones and take a markerlight.
3 Suits, 6 Shield Drones, 1 guy with a markerlight and targetting array, sat on an objective will generally get ignored in the insane free-for-all of the Apoc-y-ness - meaning once the smoke clears you've got a decent chance of winning
3: It's best to run 2 Railheads and 2-3 Broadsides. The broadsides Railguns are great for tanks, but less so for troops.
A Railheads true potential lies more in its large blast. While I've on occasion switched to solid slug for mine and they HAVE done decent damage to when they hit, dropping Str6 large blasts each turn is better It's also a LOT cheaper.
The best thing with apoc is that If I wanted, I could deploy 208 SS from a single manta.
Also, Broadsides DO have a STR 5 AP 5 heavy 4 weapon for infantry threats...just saying.
Tau Codex, Pg.27 wrote:XV8 Crisis Battlesuit: The Battlesuits are designed to compensate for the recoil of light weapons fire, so they do not count as moving when they fire Rapid Fire weapons. This ability does not extend to heavy weapons, however, and the user must be stationary to fire them.
Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Relentless: Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement phase, and are also allowed to assault in the the same turn they fired them.
Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Slow and Purposeful: Models with this special rule are relentless (see above). However they always count as moving through difficult terrain (including in assaults).
So yes, the standard rule of the Tau Codex for the XV8 specifies it counts as stationary for firing rapid fire weapons. HOWEVER, the ASS simply confers Slow and Purposeful, which in turn gives the unit Relentless, which makes the model count as being stationary for the purposes of firing.
IF the XV8 Battlesuit rule prevents the Relentless Rule inherrant to Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) that was introduced in a later edition of the core rules, then by extension it would also prevent the Relentless provided by Slow and Purposeful.
It's simply a hold-over from a previous edition in an outdated codex, like target-priority tests.
So the XV8 is Relentless, so can fire rapid fire and heavy weapons even if they moved and can also Jump-Shoot-Jump. Of course the only XV8s that have heavy weapons are in IA, but they can indeed move and fire those heavy weapons! The XV-15, XV-25 and any Drones that are Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) are also relentless so can fire rapid fire and heavy weapons even if they moved and can also Jump-Shoot-Jump.
Tau Codex, Pg.27 wrote:XV8 Crisis Battlesuit:
The Battlesuits are designed to compensate for the recoil of light weapons fire, so they do not count as moving when they fire Rapid Fire weapons. This ability does not extend to heavy weapons, however, and the user must be stationary to fire them.
Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Relentless:
Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement phase, and are also allowed to assault in the the same turn they fired them.
Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Slow and Purposeful:
Models with this special rule are relentless (see above).
However they always count as moving through difficult terrain (including in assaults).
So yes, the standard rule of the Tau Codex for the XV8 specifies it counts as stationary for firing rapid fire weapons.
HOWEVER, the ASS simply confers Slow and Purposeful, which in turn gives the unit Relentless, which makes the model count as being stationary for the purposes of firing.
IF the XV8 Battlesuit rule prevents the Relentless Rule inherrant to Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) that was introduced in a later edition of the core rules, then by extension it would also prevent the Relentless provided by Slow and Purposeful.
It's simply a hold-over from a previous edition, like target-priority tests.
XV-15, XV-25 and any Drones that are Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) are also relentless so can fire rapid fire and heavy weapons even if they moved and can also Jump-Shoot-Jump.
So the way it's worded means that A.S.S. is unneccessary to buy A.S.S. because you already have it anyways? Except for XV88 since they're not Jump Pack
Ovion wrote:1: The line in the taudex about the Heavy Weapons doesn't stop relentless, if it did the relentless gained from the Advanced Stabilisation System becomes irrelevant.
2: I've found that Stealth suits are a little overpriced in standard 40k.
BUT, I've found they are amazing in Apocalypse games.
Being everything can hold objectives, and Stealth Suits have Stealth, they can have each have 2 shield drones and take a markerlight.
3 Suits, 6 Shield Drones, 1 guy with a markerlight and targetting array, sat on an objective will generally get ignored in the insane free-for-all of the Apoc-y-ness - meaning once the smoke clears you've got a decent chance of winning
3: It's best to run 2 Railheads and 2-3 Broadsides. The broadsides Railguns are great for tanks, but less so for troops.
A Railheads true potential lies more in its large blast. While I've on occasion switched to solid slug for mine and they HAVE done decent damage to when they hit, dropping Str6 large blasts each turn is better It's also a LOT cheaper.
The best thing with apoc is that If I wanted, I could deploy 208 SS from a single manta.
Also, Broadsides DO have a STR 5 AP 5 heavy 4 weapon for infantry threats...just saying.
But unless they have Multi-trackers you're sacrificing Twin-Linked S10 AP1 shooting for those S5 shots, so it's easy to see how their SMS don't get used too often when there's so many other units who can pump out S5 or better shots (i.e. everything in the Tau army except Kroot carnivores)
Did you read? It's clearly spit between yes and no, with the same kinds of players sticking to yes, and the other kind sticking to no.
The book has been out for a bit, so the opinions are going to be set in stone for people. I'm a bit more flexible than I sound tbh. I would say take them if you aren't using the standard FoC, as that is my biggest complaint with the book.
I would love for them to be switched to troops for instance, either through a special character, limited numbers (like 0-2 units) or even straight up troops. Their survivability and lack of focus between utility (anti tank or marker lights) and anti infantry is more suited towards troop units anyways.
Honestly given Stealth, Infiltrate, Outflank and Deepstrike, I'd say they're almost Fast Attack. Certainly faster than Pathfinders (in terms of manuvering and still being useful.)
They(pathfinders) were assigned with the 4th ed deployment in mind, which had Fast Attacks either on the board first or on the board last.
I wanna say last, since first seems too obvious and it would give more of an advantage to fast attacks to be deployed last. Since you could use them to pinpoint and attack weak points in the enemy deployment.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:They(pathfinders) were assigned with the 4th ed deployment in mind, which had Fast Attacks either on the board first or on the board last.
I wanna say last, since first seems too obvious and it would give more of an advantage to fast attacks to be deployed last. Since you could use them to pinpoint and attack weak points in the enemy deployment.
Last. And the idea that Tau were initially created "with 4th ed in mind" is illogical given that they came out well before 4th did, and also got a 4th ed codex. But, seeing as how 3rd ed had the same deployment order, your initial idea might be all right. Really they're fast attack because they had scout, which lets them get a pre game move, allowed them to always be on the board regardless of mission, and are required to be in transports while having an assault weapon, meaning they could jump out and shoot up a target (in 3rd ed, you could not move and rapid fire.)
Tau Codex, Pg.27 wrote:XV8 Crisis Battlesuit:
The Battlesuits are designed to compensate for the recoil of light weapons fire, so they do not count as moving when they fire Rapid Fire weapons. This ability does not extend to heavy weapons, however, and the user must be stationary to fire them.
Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Relentless:
Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement phase, and are also allowed to assault in the the same turn they fired them.
Warhammer Rulebook, Pg.76 wrote:Slow and Purposeful:
Models with this special rule are relentless (see above).
However they always count as moving through difficult terrain (including in assaults).
So yes, the standard rule of the Tau Codex for the XV8 specifies it counts as stationary for firing rapid fire weapons.
HOWEVER, the ASS simply confers Slow and Purposeful, which in turn gives the unit Relentless, which makes the model count as being stationary for the purposes of firing.
IF the XV8 Battlesuit rule prevents the Relentless Rule inherrant to Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) that was introduced in a later edition of the core rules, then by extension it would also prevent the Relentless provided by Slow and Purposeful.
It's simply a hold-over from a previous edition, like target-priority tests.
XV-15, XV-25 and any Drones that are Jump Infantry (Jet Pack) are also relentless so can fire rapid fire and heavy weapons even if they moved and can also Jump-Shoot-Jump.
But wait, how is that useful? Models with jump packs in the tau army don't really have any heavy weapons, and broadsides aren't relentless...
I realise that most of the time it's a moot point, but if you're expanding your codex to include the Imperial Armour books, then the XV8s can take some Heavy weapons.
But yes, generally it's not going to do much, but it's good to know.
Ovion wrote:I realise that most of the time it's a moot point, but if you're expanding your codex to include the Imperial Armour books, then the XV8s can take some Heavy weapons.
But yes, generally it's not going to do much, but it's good to know.
So basically only markerlights and SMS?
Does anyone else REALLY want to see xv9s in our next codex?
I ran a Stealthcloud in a 1K+1K pairs tourney and we almost won the thing. MVP's were the Stealthclouds. So I like them when I use suits at all (and I dont very often).
The stealthcloud, as I call it, with 12 Drones is a beast when aided by Markerlights. So I give them a thumbs up.
