Here a rumour by stickmonkey over at Warseer:

So my snitches have passed along a few bits.

Up next for 40k sounds like may timeframe for a chaos codex. Rumored to expand upon 4 major legions.

New plastics

Chaos dread.

New plastic raptors

New plastic plague bearers

New character sculpts, not sure if abaddon is included...


I think most if not all of this has been mentioned before.

On top of this, I'm hearing there will be a few blister releases for other armies between now and summer. Even with WFB likely to take the spotlight in April, I'm being told to expect 2-3 blisters for 40k.

Likely candidates include missing characters for Nids, Necrons, DE. All of which have sculpts ready.

Cheers.

stickmonkey wrote:

Could you name the four legions the dex you heard about is going to expand upon

?
Emporers children
Death guard
World eaters
Thousand sons

But that's not all that's in the book from what I hear. And the conflict in what I've heard is that they expanded upon the 4 chaos gods, or they expanded upon the 4 legions devoted to those specific gods, so I'm not certain which is true right now, if either.

I have heard from many sources traitor guard and others are in the book, but nothing close enough for me to have a lot of faith yet there.
(...)
No words on another dex, but as Abaddon is in the dex, I expect all 9 legions to be covered somehow.
(...)
I want to clarify, I don't know this release slot is May. Seems like a lot of people grabbing onto that. Only that its likely the next release "slot" that could be a 40k window. But the rumors I'm getting are that this chaos release is next up. Next up could be October for all I know. But I suspect sooner.
(...)
I'm also confirming a 6e winging it's way our direction.

Past few major editions have followed the model of hb rulebook in June/July and box set in September. If I recall fantasy and 40k had no accompanying models to the hb release. But did have a ton of gaming accessories.

And please don't spam this thread with the usual "hate current CSM Codex" and wishlist posts like in all the previous Chaos rumour threads. Thanks.

Well.. assuming 40K 6th Edition will hit the summer, and assuming that Dark Angels vs. Chaos is the start-box, either Chaos or Dark Angels would need to be in the "first-half-of-2012" (with the other likely in the second half). As said, all else has already been rumoured. So it's largely a coin-flip.

So if next is Chaos, does that mean the DA would be after the release of 6th ed? That seems odd as you'd expect the vanilla SM dex then.

I want to believe the chaos book is coming out soon, but this rumor brings nothing new to the table (or confirms everything, depending on how much you believe it).

If CSM do indeed get just plastic dreads, raptors, and plague bearers as their new plastic kits, then this release is going to be horribly underwhelming.

Ozymandias wrote:So if next is Chaos, does that mean the DA would be after the release of 6th ed? That seems odd as you'd expect the vanilla SM dex then.

I doubt we see Vanilla AND Dark Angels.

Option 1: Dark Angels get a dedicated book but no Vanilla Dex.

Option 2: Dark Angels mini's are released for the new Vanilla Dex (which would also cover DA then).

Option 3 is they release a new generic sm and do the da as a wd supliment.

Zweischneid wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:So if next is Chaos, does that mean the DA would be after the release of 6th ed? That seems odd as you'd expect the vanilla SM dex then.

I doubt we see Vanilla AND Dark Angels.

Option 1: Dark Angels get a dedicated book but no Vanilla Dex.

Option 2: Dark Angels mini's are released for the new Vanilla Dex (which would also cover DA then).

I like Option 2, but they would make less money if we could add genuine flavour to our SM chapters over and above swapping the HQ for one army wide rule because then they would only sell C:SM instead of C:SM and Codex DA.

New Dreadnought and plastic raptors isn't doing it for me. That just doesn't seem like a big enough release, or enough to get people to pick them up. You don't hear people saying "I'd pick up CSM if they had plastic raptors".

With all the effort given to make the "Space Marine" Chaos Marines look fantastic, I'm starting to think the plastics look like crap. If they incorporated some older mark power armor pieces, older bolters, maybe a prosthetic or two, some more bare heads (besides that ugly one with the respirator), and maybe made shoulder trim not so ugly, they could be a lot better.

The berserkers are showing their age as well, and really, a plastic Noise Marine kit wouldn't be too bad.

Raptors are about the most unique thing the current line has, and I hope they keep the same style with the plastics (hopefully with more of a stump for them to be resting on).

I highly doubt they'd take an army that has had their own book for 15+ years and do away with it. Especially when said army is a founding chapter and has such a huge following.

Is that all the plastic releases they're having in the first wave or just the plastic recasts they're doing? If the former they'll need to have a lot of finecast releases to make the first wave interesting, or are they hoping the novelty of a new chaos codex will carry them through?

Then again, they may be waiting for 6th edition to release the big stuff.

I'm assuming the "new plastics" doesn't necessarily mean just the mentioned raptors and dread, and means new plastic chaos marines and maybe some other kits as well that just aren't confirmed/sighted yet.

RAMPANT WISHLISTING/WILD SPECULATION: I think the Space Wolf/Blood Angel infantry kits are a good indicator of what might be coming, perhaps, with set that includes legion-specific parts, perhaps only 5 or so complete models for the box but extra pieces that can be used to upgrade a (hopefully recut) "vanilla" Chaos Marines box. I'd honestly be very, very happy with that, particularly with the possibility of a brand new Khorne plastic set on top of that, seperated out (not a Berzerker player myself but if they are left out of the upgrade kit then it leaves more Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh parts to go round).

A brand new Chaos terminator box would also be just grand, but they could just about get away with not touching them at all and suggesting that bits from the upgrade box be used to make them legion-specific. Fine by me.

See, this is what has bugged me so much about Chaos Marines for so long. Way, way, way back in the mists of time they brought out nice (at the time) plastic Chaos marines and then... nothing. The sprue was redone in the 2000s I think to pack more stuff into the new longer rectangle sprues with a command sprue included for special weapons, banners etc, but again, the rest of the range remained almost untouched apart from the plastic Chaos Terminators which really weren't enormously different to the metals that had been available since the mid 90s. And as a slightly old-timer I can tell you now that I was there when the metal Chaos Dreadnought was dropped on us and it looked just as bad then as it does now.

Also, has nobody mentioned the Thousand Son heads included on two of the new Space Wolf kits? A bit of a return to the "old style" helmets of the original egyptian-styled metal mini from the late 80s. I like to think they're there as a slightly sneaky little hint at what to expect from the chaos release whenever it arrives. All I care about is plastic Thousand Sons. If I get that, I'll be very, very, very, very happy. And it looks like I will. Sorry to be so optimistic.

Plastic dread and raptors are basic in my CSM plan, so I hope this is true. And it's better if it comes in May (or around).

I am hoping that if the book really drops in May that GW decided with the imminent release of 6th that the codex is a full color hardback. I would hate to have the last softback through all of 6th.

Dread and Raptors were already confirmed by Hastings.

Plaguebearers were, IIRC, ghost21's rumour and make no sense alongside Codex: CSM unless GW are squatting Codex: Chaos Daemons and honestly not even then.

Where are the big dual vehicle kits and dual Elite infantry kits?

Not buying this.

Where's the obligatory big kit that goes with codex releases these days?

All glory for chaos!

Excellent potential news, I would love some plague bearers that aren't metal.

I won't be able to state otherwise when people bandwagon the hell out of the new book, chaos is always recruiting after all.

BDJV wrote:I am hoping that if the book really drops in May that GW decided with the imminent release of 6th that the codex is a full color hardback. I would hate to have the last softback through all of 6th.

+1 to this, I love the hardcover books.

I don't think we are getting all the news here, I'm sure there will be some big kits and dual purpose kits. Wouldn't it be interesting if the dual purpose kits turned out to be Legion specific?

Are the 6th ed codices going to be in hardback?

So Chaos Legions is completely separate from renegades, so does that mean there is going to be a Renegade codex aswell? Or something along those lines.

Well taking what we know from good sources. The chances that Chaos is getting a hard cover 6th-style codex are pretty dang good (Harry), we know the boxed starter is specifically Dark Angels and Chaos (hastings) and we have it on pretty good authority that Dark Angels are being developed and the second furthest along after Chaos (Darnok).

Now, edition releases are usually a Summer/Q3 release so we know that it will be coming some time between June and August with the starter box coming September/November or somewhere around there.

So, if this is true and Chaos is a May release then that means it is directly in front of the 6th Edition release. Now since 2nd Edition the first release of any edition has been a marine codex (usually vanilla, but 2nd Edition was Space Wolves) so releasing Dark Angels as the first 6th codex fits their previous MO to a tee.

This gives them a double whammy of giving Chaos a second wind (codex released, slows down, bumped by people buying the starter and picking up Chaos) as well as being great for promoting the new codex (Dark Angels) who will see a player base expansion from the starter thus hyping up more players for the coming release. As to why a WD-dex or vanilla inclusion is likely out? It all comes down to model kits. We know from hastings that the marines in the box will be Dark Angels and that it will be obvious from the iconography.

So if it was a vanilla rollout then they would have made the marines more generic so that people picking up the starter could then expand in to any vanilla army. Even if they integrated the DA in to the vanilla codex they would miss out on people not being able to buy non-DA special characters. That, and why go to the trouble of sculpting Dark Angels units when they weren't going to get their own model release. Better to just put generic marines in the box, paint them green on the front and use it to promote the vanilla codex as a whole rather than just a few army options. It would be like making the last boxed set Crimson Fists, popping a bunch of Crimson Fists iconography on them and then being surprised when you were selling a bunch of Pedro Kantor but little of anything else.

The reason a WD release is low is because that would completely waste their ability to make even more money off of their newly minted DA players by not having a dedicated model release. GW knows they can make a lot more money if they sell the boxed starter and have releases planned out for them. With Chaos being just before they will likely have a few 2nd Wave releases set up to capitalize on this as well. If Dark Angels didn't have a full model roll out then they would miss out on that sales bump.

So, sorry to say, but a WD or vanilla-integration are not very likely considering what we already know of the situation. The very, very good information from hastings does this all on its own. Boxed marines will be very recognizable as Dark Angels, they wouldn't do that if they were just rolling them in to vanilla and they wouldn't go to that kind of trouble if it was just going to be a WD-dex. Money is the reason they will likely get a first-slot release in 6th.

Ozymandias wrote:So if next is Chaos, does that mean the DA would be after the release of 6th ed? That seems odd as you'd expect the vanilla SM dex then.

Goes along with the, "Expect to be sick of Space Marines in 2012"... CSM, DA, and Vanilla.

Hey... it wouln't be bad to have a 'Year of the Xenos" with Eldar, Tau and Orks (maybe 'Nids). After a year of space marines.

No talk of Cultists/Traitor guard makes me a saaaaad panda.

Aye, I wasn't really expecting any if they are in the 6th box as rumoured. Ork players are still waiting for DeffKoptas to have a proper kit if you think about t.

So the box being the only source for these apparent cultists for a long or short while really wouldn't surprise me.


edit - oh and I'd agree with BrookM, where is the large kit type thing that seems to have come out with nearly every army release in the past two years. Something seems to be missing from these rumours, and I'm really shocked at the thought that GW would fail to do plastic Noise Marines or Thousand Sons, again with a new release. I shouldn't be, but I really thought they would have figured out folks would be after them by now.

Harriticus wrote:No talk of Cultists/Traitor guard makes me a saaaaad panda.

Cultists are rumored to be in the starter.

brettz123 wrote:

Harriticus wrote:No talk of Cultists/Traitor guard makes me a saaaaad panda.

Cultists are rumored to be in the starter.

Well, plus they tend to be more of a fit for "Renegades" than "Legion".

Ronin_eX wrote:Well taking what we know from good sources. The chances that Chaos is getting a hard cover 6th-style codex are pretty dang good (Harry), we know the boxed starter is specifically Dark Angels and Chaos (hastings) and we have it on pretty good authority that Dark Angels are being developed and the second furthest along after Chaos (Darnok).

Now, edition releases are usually a Summer/Q3 release so we know that it will be coming some time between June and August with the starter box coming September/November or somewhere around there.

So, if this is true and Chaos is a May release then that means it is directly in front of the 6th Edition release. Now since 2nd Edition the first release of any edition has been a marine codex (usually vanilla, but 2nd Edition was Space Wolves) so releasing Dark Angels as the first 6th codex fits their previous MO to a tee.

This gives them a double whammy of giving Chaos a second wind (codex released, slows down, bumped by people buying the starter and picking up Chaos) as well as being great for promoting the new codex (Dark Angels) who will see a player base expansion from the starter thus hyping up more players for the coming release. As to why a WD-dex or vanilla inclusion is likely out? It all comes down to model kits. We know from hastings that the marines in the box will be Dark Angels and that it will be obvious from the iconography.

So if it was a vanilla rollout then they would have made the marines more generic so that people picking up the starter could then expand in to any vanilla army. Even if they integrated the DA in to the vanilla codex they would miss out on people not being able to buy non-DA special characters. That, and why go to the trouble of sculpting Dark Angels units when they weren't going to get their own model release. Better to just put generic marines in the box, paint them green on the front and use it to promote the vanilla codex as a whole rather than just a few army options. It would be like making the last boxed set Crimson Fists, popping a bunch of Crimson Fists iconography on them and then being surprised when you were selling a bunch of Pedro Kantor but little of anything else.

The reason a WD release is low is because that would completely waste their ability to make even more money off of their newly minted DA players by not having a dedicated model release. GW knows they can make a lot more money if they sell the boxed starter and have releases planned out for them. With Chaos being just before they will likely have a few 2nd Wave releases set up to capitalize on this as well. If Dark Angels didn't have a full model roll out then they would miss out on that sales bump.

So, sorry to say, but a WD or vanilla-integration are not very likely considering what we already know of the situation. The very, very good information from hastings does this all on its own. Boxed marines will be very recognizable as Dark Angels, they wouldn't do that if they were just rolling them in to vanilla and they wouldn't go to that kind of trouble if it was just going to be a WD-dex. Money is the reason they will likely get a first-slot release in 6th.

Most of your post makes total sense. The only part I have a gripe with is the line 'Hastings says that the (starter kit) marines will be obvious from the iconography. Does that just mean shoulder pads like the AOBR marines where? Does that mean full on robes and little swords with wings on everybody?

Those questions would I think would make or break the starter set for resale value. How many times do you see on Ebay or the swap-shop AOBR marines and people just pass them up? A lot I would reckon, I have about 20 of the blighters and I can't give them away to people. I don't know what the starter set will include but I am assuming 2 Tac, Dreadnought, Termies, commander, maybe something else cool for the DA and pretty much the same for the otherside.

Now the Ork's on the other hand. Those usually sell rather well because you need a heap of them. Even though after a while you will want some different ones just for sanity's sake. =o]

Ever sense 3rd the first dex out has been Space Marines. Why not bring in line your flagship army first. Makes total sense to me. I would love to see the DA rolled into a 'Actual Space Marine Codex' not just one that was Codex: Ultramarines then changed at the last minute....like the last one. The DA's could still have all their cool toys like Ravenwing, Deathwing, etc etc etc. Don't get me wrong I would love to see a full on DA book( and even if it's hardback I still might pick it up as I have a 'thing' for the Dark Angels =o]) but I can see them going either way on this one personally.

Great post and thanks for the info.

Edit; PS remember one thing about Darnok, he's not in the know like harry, hastings and stickmonkey, he gets PM's from people then reposts them. I am not saying that he doesn't vet his source's but even the great pie god had been wrong from time to time. Rumourmongering on Warseer or Dakka or any 40k site has to be one of the most thankless jobs out there, so I do respect him for that.

Kanluwen wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Harriticus wrote:No talk of Cultists/Traitor guard makes me a saaaaad panda.

Cultists are rumored to be in the starter.

Well, plus they tend to be more of a fit for "Renegades" than "Legion".

That is a good point.

brettz123 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Harriticus wrote:No talk of Cultists/Traitor guard makes me a saaaaad panda.

Cultists are rumored to be in the starter.

Well, plus they tend to be more of a fit for "Renegades" than "Legion".

That is a good point.

Unless, of course, you're planning on playing The Legion!

Alpharius wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Harriticus wrote:No talk of Cultists/Traitor guard makes me a saaaaad panda.

Cultists are rumored to be in the starter.

Well, plus they tend to be more of a fit for "Renegades" than "Legion".

That is a good point.

Unless, of course, you're planning on playing The Legion!

We'll see Alpharius

Something about may just feels odd, but thinking about it makes sense. Rumour is the starter set is going to have plastic cultists. If the Chaos book came out AFTER 6th ed that would mean they would be putting in models that have no rules. But that would also mean not the 1st 6th ed hard cover persumeingly if it comes out before 6th.

May would be Chaos, July would be 6th ed, and then September would be DA/SM/Something or other.

My only issue is that would mean 3 40k realses in a row. Would be pretty fantasy light in that regards, a big issue since rumour is the 2nd half of that really is going to be heavy on the LotR releases.

My speculation on the topic anyway.

BrookM wrote:Where's the obligatory big kit that goes with codex releases these days?

I think the 6th ed. starter could be considered like that. Not a big model, but a bunch of models for a nice price (if it follows the Island of Blood/Black Reach idea).

Lockark wrote:Something about may just feels odd, but thinking about it makes sense. Rumour is the starter set is going to have plastic cultists. If the Chaos book came out AFTER 6th ed that would mean they would be putting in models that have no rules.
.

That was what I was thinking too...

Lockark wrote:Something about may just feels odd, but thinking about it makes sense. Rumour is the starter set is going to have plastic cultists. If the Chaos book came out AFTER 6th ed that would mean they would be putting in models that have no rules. But that would also mean not the 1st 6th ed hard cover presumably if it comes out before 6th.

Or it might be like the Imperial Navy Officer model which came with BfM. He isn't in the Space Marines or Tyranids codex, but he was part of the starter set anyways.

Cultists could easily have a small rules bit in the box.

if the chaos book drops ill have chaos possessed storm ravens for my Dorian Heresy Blood Angels muahahahahha

in all seriousness ill be glad if the chaos book drops first then it will give a peek at the chaos that 6th will be

It sounds to me like someone is getting confused between recasts for the 6th starter set and the actual Chaos Legions release. Not that I'm against the CSM dex coming out earlier, but I do agree with others saying that it would be very underwhelming if that was it.

As for their 'big' oval-base release, that shouldn't be hard. A plastic version of this would be, what, 2 sprues?

Kanluwen wrote:

Lockark wrote:Something about may just feels odd, but thinking about it makes sense. Rumour is the starter set is going to have plastic cultists. If the Chaos book came out AFTER 6th ed that would mean they would be putting in models that have no rules. But that would also mean not the 1st 6th ed hard cover presumably if it comes out before 6th.

Or it might be like the Imperial Navy Officer model which came with BfM. He isn't in the Space Marines or Tyranids codex, but he was part of the starter set anyways.

Cultists could easily have a small rules bit in the box.

Not really analogous. That was one guy for a specific set of scenarios. We're talking whole units here.

IIRC the rumor of the realse of the codex being in may has been around for awhile and it was debunked.

So long as the cultists are cool I think this might be the first big box I'll buy. Would be great to see what kinds of special weapons they're using in the set (meltaguns meltaguns meltaguns let's see some meltaguns) and hopefully the new chaos sculpts won't be the AoBR marines with extra spikes/gouges in their armour.

People are forgetting that the codex coming out before the starter set will give us a month or two to decide whether chaos dreadnoughts are worth it again

Give chaos dreadnoughts some unique options again (let's see some power scourges!).

It'd be nice to get the Power Scourge and Thunder Hammer back in the game (and in plastic).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Lockark wrote:Something about may just feels odd, but thinking about it makes sense. Rumour is the starter set is going to have plastic cultists. If the Chaos book came out AFTER 6th ed that would mean they would be putting in models that have no rules. But that would also mean not the 1st 6th ed hard cover presumably if it comes out before 6th.

Or it might be like the Imperial Navy Officer model which came with BfM. He isn't in the Space Marines or Tyranids codex, but he was part of the starter set anyways.

Cultists could easily have a small rules bit in the box.

Not really analogous. That was one guy for a specific set of scenarios. We're talking whole units here.

Are we really though?

We don't know the contents of the box. We have rumors. For all we know, it could be a single unit of Cultists for the starter set to have as ablative meatshields. It could also very well be that Cultists will make an appearance in the book and be an actual unit.

At this point in time, saying that it's "not really analogous" is far too definitive an answer for an unknown.

Well there's a difference between units of guys, and a single model for a specific scenario.

Of course there is, but who's to say it's not a unit for a scenario?

It's highly unlikely that is the case, sure...but it's still too early to be definitively certain.

So aside from info we've already been given by far more credible rumormongers and a dash of the usual vague rumors that anyone here could tell you (a release with new plastic and character sculpts?!), why exactly are we treating Stickmonkey with any sort of credibility here?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well there's a difference between units of guys, and a single model for a specific scenario.

And if it is a unit of guys GW could just put in a 1 page article in the White Dwarf to get you by till the Chaos Codex releases 2 weeks later. Nothings really off the table here.

That last Chaos book stunk so bad it would make a Plague marine wretch.Me personally it was so horrible i retired my strike force.even on an occasion i used the previous one.

If Chaos Marines is in May, then we could be seeing a release schedual along the lines of;
April - Empire army book
May - Chaos Marines codex
June - Necron 2nd wave + various random models/re-casts
July - 6th ed + Gamer's Eidtion + 'Uber Delux Collector's + various gaming aids no one really wants!
August - Fantasy release
September - 40 Core Set release
October - Codex Dark Angels
Novemeber - The Hobbit & LotR re-release
December - usual xmas 'BIG' kits & crap.

Not a bad year far as I'm concerned, so hopefully it'll all pan out as above?!

Added some info by stickmonkey to the first post, esp. that he only says next Codex will be legions, not necessarily in May.
May is already crowded by the extensive Necron 2nd wave.
So in the end, this is not much new stuff, just another confirmation of what other rumour mongers say.

BTW cultists/renegades are in the starter box and are rumoured to be in the Legions book under Alpha Legion. Hastings also confirmed plastic raptors.

2nd Waves only take like a weekend or two. Plenty of time to stick in a new edition and a codex. Honestly with GW turning 25 this year I was really expecting to be WOW'd. I know were not even in March yet, but dammit, show me the WOW! Week after week, I want to be WOW'd.

Kroothawk wrote:Added some info by stickmonkey to the first post, esp. that he only says next Codex will be legions, not necessarily in May.
May is already crowded by the extensive Necron 2nd wave.
So in the end, this is not much new stuff, just another confirmation of what other rumour mongers say.

BTW cultists/renegades are in the starter box and are rumoured to be in the Legions book under Alpha Legion. Hastings also confirmed plastic raptors.

Well, Codex Daemons came out in May '08 just before the drop of 5th edition... Perhaps the poor 'crons could be pushed back just one more month? It's not like they haven't already waited a small eternity for their release window anyways - what's one more month after how many decades in the dust?!

Kanluwen wrote:Of course there is, but who's to say it's not a unit for a scenario?

It's highly unlikely that is the case, sure...but it's still too early to be definitively certain.

Blood island doesn't even try to explain the rules beyond the mini rule book, or give any scenarios. Heck, they don't even give you the full rules for the units in the box or explain how they work. You need to buy the army books for that.

I would not be surprised to see that trend continue.
=U

At this point it will be surprising to see the little scenarios in the old boxes come back.

Hey guys, keep in mind that (as Fantasy has shown us) new edition does not necessarily mean new updates to the armies immediately afterwards... even if Chaos is up next, we might be waiting a looong time for it to drop, or for that matter to get whatever it is thats coming after.

chaos0xomega wrote:Hey guys, keep in mind that (as Fantasy has shown us) new edition does not necessarily mean new updates to the armies immediately afterwards... even if Chaos is up next, we might be waiting a looong time for it to drop, or for that matter to get whatever it is thats coming after.

Waiting 8 months to release the first new edition army book was a huge clusterfeth on GW's part imo. I doubt the game of space marines + friends will be forced to wait that long, especially considering 40k is much more straitforward on the competitive scale in terms of what needs fixing/updating. (ie: all the 5th ed books bar the daemon vs GK disaster compete well vs eachother, while from chaos marines and earlier are in dire need of help!)

I'm not sure if anyone has seen the WD spine image recently, but it's pretty clear to me that it's a Dark Angel marine dude. So that might mean Angels are first.

Still hoping for Chaos, though

I really want to start a cultist/traitor guard army. My plan has been to just use the Imperial Guard codex to tide me over until 6th, but if this rumor pans out I might get lucky.

Of course if cultists suck, I may still end up playing Imperial Nurgle Guard.

Weren't Tau or Black Templars going to be released soon?

Kroothawk wrote:Added some info by stickmonkey to the first post, esp. that he only says next Codex will be legions, not necessarily in May.
May is already crowded by the extensive Necron 2nd wave.

Supposedly but then at one point they were Feb, then March...... June would make them the same as DE 2nd wave 7 months after the codex release. As a Necron player who has been holding off so that I can import everything in one hit I would personelly like them sooner and have no vested interest in when the CSM dex comes out but even the "credible" rumour folks seem to have this tendency to fail when it comes to timeline and I will eat my hat if GW even with all their bad choices decide that the 25th anniversary of 40k and the year that a new edition is being released is the 1st time in 14 years where they only release 1 40k codex.....

I still feel that alot of the issues come from unfortunate fact that apparently the rumour posters who the community find credible seem to be less interested in 40k than fantasy and in IMO an interesting irony in the thread on warseer someone points out that SMs timelines are terrible (something ive noticed myself his release orders have been quite good he just tends think things will be released about twice as fast as what they are) when we have had a prime example just rescently with the Nids and still ongoing with the Necrons of one of the rumour posters whos info is considered very credible failing on timeline for 40k.

Chaos codex on may already? Very cool, feels like x-mas has come very earl this year!

Kroothawk wrote:by stickmonkey

Kroothawk wrote:by stickmonkey

Kroothawk wrote:by stickmonkey

...ah, never mind.

From a less known poster on Warseer:

geoffkemp wrote:Heard from several places over the last couple of weeks that the codex may have already gone to print.

Darkseid wrote:Chaos codex on may already? Very cool, feels like x-mas has come very earl this year!

Kroothawk wrote:by stickmonkey

Kroothawk wrote:by stickmonkey

Kroothawk wrote:by stickmonkey

...ah, never mind.

Stickmonkey's prediction for Necrons on Halloween 2011, made in April 2010, was spot-on and he stuck with it, while literally every other known and allegedly reliable rumour mongerer was putting them in spring, later summer, latter september, etc.. before

odorofdeath wrote:I'm not sure if anyone has seen the WD spine image recently, but it's pretty clear to me that it's a Dark Angel marine dude. So that might mean Angels are first.

Still hoping for Chaos, though

The DA spine image puts them somewhere in October I reccon. Seems to be roughly 6 issues left before the image is complete.

undead flesh addict wrote:Weren't Tau or Black Templars going to be released soon?

The source of those rumours was ghost21 (cursed be his name), who has since admitted to making them all up.

I been told it's black Templar and this did not come from some rumour that I read. This is first hand info.

But I can't expand on that because I don't know what is gonna be release in them or when but I know they are next.

I say this with 70% confidence

Zweischneid wrote:Stickmonkey's prediction for Necrons on Halloween 2011, made in April 2010, was spot-on and he stuck with it, while literally every other known and allegedly reliable rumour mongerer was putting them in spring, later summer, latter september, etc.. before

For every Necron Codex on Halloween there is a Summer of Flyers, a Tau & BT are next, a Tevrigon and T-Fex are two differnt kits, a Eldar in 2012, a Plastic Stormtroopers in Q1 2012 and so on.

Let's be honest: the guy has a terrible record. It's only the sheer volume of different predicions that helps him get some thing's right.

I just find these and the Dark Angel rumours to be pretty obvious IMHO; of course there will be new Raptors, of course there will be a new Dread, of course there will be new character sculpts, of course they will expand upon the gods.
Whilst less obvious, the Dark Angel rumours are still very predictable IMHO.

I'm not saying he shouldn't be believed as a rumour-monger, but to me, the only bit of news here is the apparent date.

Sadly, given that we've seen the (even older) Ragnar, Ulrik, Dante et al re-released in Finecast, I'm dubious about our chances of getting newly-sculpted characters for Traitor Marines - particularly given that Abaddon has been re-issued in Finecast already.

Much as GW's business and creative decisions seem often to defy logic, I also find it difficult to believe that they would go to the effort and expense of striking new moulds for Abaddon (whose mould even received a some small changes) and for the the Raptors, only to replace them with new sculpts less than a year later.

English Assassin wrote:Sadly, given that we've seen the (even older) Ragnar, Ulrik, Dante et al re-released in Finecast, I'm dubious about our chances of getting newly-sculpted characters for Traitor Marines - particularly given that Abaddon has been re-issued in Finecast already.

Much as GW's business and creative decisions seem often to defy logic, I also find it difficult to believe that they would go to the effort and expense of striking new moulds for Abaddon (whose mould even received a some small changes) and for the the Raptors, only to replace them with new sculpts less than a year later.

Well. They did JUST do that with the new plastic hive tyrant thow didn't they?

I think that went to show that GW is in fact willing to replace the models from that 1st wave of finecast releases. I still agree with you that it's wired for them to do that, and at this point is the exception and not the standard.

I don't want Chaos out in May, I have others things to buy!!! Will have to put them all off if Chaos are out so soon....

Suppose it makes perfect sense for either DA or CSM to be out before 6th Ed if they are both in the starter set. They both need a new codex, and will be getting that soon, and if 6th ed is pretty much finished (must be if its out in July?) then the newest Dex must know the general gist of 6th ed..

Whenever the due date, all we can be sure abouty is that itll happen before or after 6thed drops.....lets hope its not fethed up and worse than our current 1

English Assassin wrote:Sadly, given that we've seen the (even older) Ragnar, Ulrik, Dante et al re-released in Finecast, I'm dubious about our chances of getting newly-sculpted characters for Traitor Marines - particularly given that Abaddon has been re-issued in Finecast already.

Much as GW's business and creative decisions seem often to defy logic, I also find it difficult to believe that they would go to the effort and expense of striking new moulds for Abaddon (whose mould even received a some small changes) and for the the Raptors, only to replace them with new sculpts less than a year later.

I brought up the same thing in the last CSM thread. I agree, but it doesn't seem like that stopped GW from doing the hive tyrant over in plastic. If anything, the hive tyrant is an indicator that GW isn't too concerned with making their money back on finecost (possibly because everyone hates them? ), and that replacing a finecast kit isn't unreasonable.

I've worried from the beginning that finecost was basically a death sentence for models that they would NOT be getting re-done any time in the future.


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Lockark wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Sadly, given that we've seen the (even older) Ragnar, Ulrik, Dante et al re-released in Finecast, I'm dubious about our chances of getting newly-sculpted characters for Traitor Marines - particularly given that Abaddon has been re-issued in Finecast already.

Much as GW's business and creative decisions seem often to defy logic, I also find it difficult to believe that they would go to the effort and expense of striking new moulds for Abaddon (whose mould even received a some small changes) and for the the Raptors, only to replace them with new sculpts less than a year later.

Well. They did JUST do that with the new plastic hive tyrant thow didn't they?

I think that went to show that GW is in fact willing to replace the models from that 1st wave of finecast releases. I still agree with you that it's wired for them to do that, and at this point is the exception and not the standard.

Totally ninja'd

English Assassin wrote:Sadly, given that we've seen the (even older) Ragnar, Ulrik, Dante et al re-released in Finecast, I'm dubious about our chances of getting newly-sculpted characters for Traitor Marines - particularly given that Abaddon has been re-issued in Finecast already.

Much as GW's business and creative decisions seem often to defy logic, I also find it difficult to believe that they would go to the effort and expense of striking new moulds for Abaddon (whose mould even received a some small changes) and for the the Raptors, only to replace them with new sculpts less than a year later.

Lockark and Samus_aran115 (paraphrased) wrote:You have overlooked a very obvious detail, you fool!

Hmm. So I have. ******.

If I remember right it was CSM right before 5th came out then SM right after of course. I tend to think they would do the same thing with this edition. WD the Dark Angels (as the magazines spine is hinting too imho) and redo the CSM with a new book + recasting the legion stuff as resin, then put them both in the starter box. Then codex SM come out and one up them both! That is my guess anyway, I have always consistently read and heard Chaos prior to 6th and included in the starter. I have not spent money on a release since GK so I have some GW monies burning a hole in my pocket waiting on something for any of my armies...

BladeWalker wrote:If I remember right it was CSM right before 5th came out then SM right after of course. I tend to think they would do the same thing with this edition. WD the Dark Angels (as the magazines spine is hinting too imho) and redo the CSM with a new book + recasting the legion stuff as resin, then put them both in the starter box. Then codex SM come out and one up them both! That is my guess anyway, I have always consistently read and heard Chaos prior to 6th and included in the starter. I have not spent money on a release since GK so I have some GW monies burning a hole in my pocket waiting on something for any of my armies...

It was Daemons right before 5th ed, and I think Orks before them....

straightsilver wrote:40k will get a fair bit of stuff this year, but expect it to be more of a trickle than a downpour.

I have heard there will be more releases than usual models wise, but they will be small releases to keep interest up for the whole of the 25th anniversary year.

I don't know if that means small waves every month for 12 months, or a blister or two each month but there should apparently be more than enough to keep all 40K players happy.

And Empire is definitely coming soon, April would be my guess too.

Samus_aran115 wrote:If anything, the hive tyrant is an indicator that GW isn't too concerned with making their money back on finecost

Or we could assume the old metal molds for the Tyrant died and they had to replace them, at which point making Fincast versions is a no brainer.

So... any new CSM rumors to report then?

Marthike wrote:I been told it's black Templar and this did not come from some rumour that I read. This is first hand info.

But I can't expand on that because I don't know what is gonna be release in them or when but I know they are next.

I say this with 70% confidence

I say with 100% confidence your source got that info from a rumor thread and its wrong.

Harry wrote:I have said all along that I though Chaos was first but i was not sure if it was just before or just after 6th.

stickmonkey wrote:I want to clarify, I don't know this release slot is May. Seems like a lot of people grabbing onto that. Only that its likely the next release "slot" that could be a 40k window. But the rumors I'm getting are that this chaos release is next up. Next up could be October for all I know. But I suspect sooner.

Next full army release (with book) ... not next 40K release.

Stickmonkey has said that he just picked May as the next likely slot.

My guess on the Necron/Nid thread was that slot would be for the Necron wave.

This is my predicted 2012 first posted around Christmas time ...
You will see it has CSM right before or right after 6th in July.
This is still my best guess.

2012
Jan : Vampire Counts
Feb : Lord of the Rings relaunch. Fantasy scenery “Deathwatch knell” / Necrons?
Mar : Tyranids and more LotR stuff?
Apr : Empire
May : Necron wave and more LotR stuff?
Jun : Chaos Space Marines?
Jul : 6th edition.
Aug : Warriors of Chaos / Chaos Space marines?
Sep : Starter set : Dark Angels v’s Chaos (from Hastings)
Oct : Chaos space marines?
Nov : THE HOBBIT!!!! BLOODBOWL???
Dec :

Harry wrote:I am pretty sure the Tau codex is the first 40K army release of 2013. (If that helps any).

Harry wrote:This stuff with ghost .... he wasn't making it all up .... there are a number of things which ghost said which I know to be true ... even though no one else has even got close to guessing. Things you couldn't possibly know and you wouldn't guess at if you had not seen them for your self or heard about them from someone very much 'in the know'.

He may not have got everything right but certainly some of the stuff he talked about is happening.

I wouldn't mind a drop pod kit, cultists, big flying thing and more stuff for thousand sons (as well as fluff) and gaurd tanks... must have gaurd tanks...

happygolucky wrote:I wouldn't mind a drop pod kit, cultists, big flying thing and more stuff for thousand sons (as well as fluff) and gaurd tanks... must have gaurd tanks...

And some ogryns

I would be rather surprised if they Released the Dark Angels starter set, with such an Old book. I would think both Chaos AND Dark Angels would be updated before the starter set.

I just want my Necron second wave at this point.

.....Blood Bowl? BLOOD BOWL! So CSM, WoC, 6E and Blood Bowl. They are updating 2 of my armies and 2 game systems I play. This could be my most expensive year yet, I hope my marriage can weather it

Tau in 2013...

sounds like a title to a science fiction movie from the 1970's. That's what I'm waiting for.

tetrisphreak wrote:Tau in 2013...

sounds like a title to a science fiction movie from the 1970's. That's what I'm waiting for.

Good thing the world ends at the end of 2012 then, huh? Lol. I'm actually fairly disappointed with the release schedule-I hope Harry is wrong here, even though I recognize he's very reliable. Most likely only 1, MAYBE 2 40k codexes this year, 2 fantasy books definite, then a bunch of waves for other codexes. Blah. Year of 40k and 25th anniversary my . This past year was 3 fantasy books-why not 3 40k books, plus occasional releases like we're getting now. I understand we're getting a bunch of waves of 40k models throughout the year (3 freaking chaos releases-nice! Crons, Wolves, 'Nids) but only one book is kind of insulting-"hey, it's 40k's year-have a book. A single book. Oh, let's make it two by giving you an edition rulebook too." I get that 6th'll be a big release, but can't we get 2 codexes this year to go along with it? I am happier about chaos instead of Dark Angels though. My buddy just got his 'Crons updated, he doesn't need the only other army he plays to come RIGHT after it while the rest of the 40k'ers in my circle get stuck with all old books (chaos, BT, tau, eldar).

Two books doesn't seem unreasonable, presuming that one of them is to be released before 6th Edition itself. Until we hear something plausible specifically to confirm a Dark Angels Codex, however, my money's on those two being Codex: Chaos Marines and Codex: Space Marines, with the Dark Angels folded into the latter.

Frankly, however, I'm more excited by the prospect of a Blood Bowl re-release.

There would be riots in the streets if GW folded DA into the Space Marine book. While they don't have anything from a rules perspective that really sets them apart anymore, neither did Blood Angels or Black Templar. Hell, even Space Wolves could have been folded in with little effort.

From a fluff standpoint however, they are still quite distinct and certainly offer as much in their background that can be fleshed out in the rules as the Blood Angels had.

They aren't folding DA into SM. GW announced around the time of Daemons release that if they produced a codex or army book for something, it meant that they would be supporting it as an independent army, etc. permanently, and that this decision was retroactive with the existing books at the time (of which Dark Angels was one of them).

Interesting idea/ theory here, would it make sense that with so many armies getting "duel kits" for certain units, wouldn't it make sense with the plastics rumors that perhaps the 4 major cults are getting duel kits for plastics as well? at least in some form or another? at least noise and rubrics that would make sense for since both were duel kits.

chaos0xomega wrote:They aren't folding DA into SM. GW announced around the time of Daemons release that if they produced a codex or army book for something, it meant that they would be supporting it as an independent army, etc. permanently, and that this decision was retroactive with the existing books at the time (of which Dark Angels was one of them).

Not that GW can't, and doesn't, change it's mind.

Ahriman21 wrote:Interesting idea/ theory here, would it make sense that with so many armies getting "duel kits" for certain units, wouldn't it make sense with the plastics rumors that perhaps the 4 major cults are getting duel kits for plastics as well? at least in some form or another? at least noise and rubrics that would make sense for since both were duel kits.

I'm confused...

I thought when people talked about 'dual' kits they meant they could be used for multiple units? Since when did TS and EC share a kit or anything in common? I suppose you mean that both are hybrid kits meaning plastic and metal combined? I thought someone said in another thread/forum/somewhere that Thousand Sons were being moved to Finecast?


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Balance wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:They aren't folding DA into SM. GW announced around the time of Daemons release that if they produced a codex or army book for something, it meant that they would be supporting it as an independent army, etc. permanently, and that this decision was retroactive with the existing books at the time (of which Dark Angels was one of them).

Not that GW can't, and doesn't, change it's mind.

If they were to change their minds it would probably be more likely they'd merge something like Tyranids with Tau. The idea of less space marines just doesn't seem likely

MightyGodzilla wrote:Are the 6th ed codices going to be in hardback?

I hope not, then I would be really pissed when they get invariably beat up. Especially if they're the same price as the Fantasy books.

I'd find it interesting if they Dual purposed the Raptor box so that you could make Legion specific squads. Khorne Berzerkers with Jump packs anybody?

d-usa wrote:I really want to start a cultist/traitor guard army.

While I love the fluff/concept I already got burned on the LATD "bait and forget" fiasco back in the day and will not be making that mistake again..

If we really do get a Chaos Legion codex this year, it may drag me away from my Tyranids to do a World Eaters army. Love me some World Eaters.

Meh, I hope that they come out with the codex after they come out with 6th edition so that we don't get burned with crappy units that were good in 5th but suck after

Stormrider wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:Are the 6th ed codices going to be in hardback?

I hope not, then I would be really pissed when they get invariably beat up. Especially if they're the same price as the Fantasy books.

I'd rather they stay soft cover, so I can have them ring bound at staples. Makes them easy to transport and fairly rugged.

Hope this is true,it will be sweeeeeet!

Chaos in may would be in time for my Birthday :-) Time to do a last army before we haz babies.

After my Necrons get up to about 2500 points, I plan on making an Alpha Legion army. Of course, they would be in disguise. ;-)

I dont care what codex comes out... the fact there is a new one coming is reason to celebrate enough... 1 more outdated codex down.... tons more to go!

CT GAMER wrote:

d-usa wrote:I really want to start a cultist/traitor guard army.

While I love the fluff/concept I already got burned on the LATD "bait and forget" fiasco back in the day and will not be making that mistake again..

I like the fluff and the modeling opportunities, and if the cultist aspect looks crappy I will just go ahead and use the IG Codex. I like the IG so it wouldn't break my heard to make a count-as army.

timetowaste85 wrote:Most likely only 1, MAYBE 2 40k codexes this year, 2 fantasy books definite, then a bunch of waves for other codexes. Blah. Year of 40k and 25th anniversary my . This past year was 3 fantasy books-why not 3 40k books, plus occasional releases like we're getting now.

2010 was touted as the "year of Fantasy" and they only got one army book (and a new edition).

lord_blackfang wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:Most likely only 1, MAYBE 2 40k codexes this year, 2 fantasy books definite, then a bunch of waves for other codexes. Blah. Year of 40k and 25th anniversary my . This past year was 3 fantasy books-why not 3 40k books, plus occasional releases like we're getting now.

2010 was touted as the "year of Fantasy" and they only got one army book (and a new edition).

Well it was a 40k year, in that 40k got 3 dexes. This year is serposed to be a 40k year too in that we get 3 dexes. I'm not liking the timetable so far. I'm to impatient for this.

I would like it if they made 5 chaos codexes,
A book for each god and one for undivided.
I.e book of Nurgle for example will include Nurgle daemons,
Nurgle cultists, Nurgle renegade guard and Nurgle marines.

Same for Khorne,Slaanesh,Tzeentch. But undivided will be alitle of each or maybe exclude some of the things like the
Iron warriors exclude daemons.

JJ reiterated in this months WD that they are committed to supporting every current army. No squatting allowed anymore, apparently.

Hardback - would love, the new fantasy hardbacks are excellent. Unlikely to happen if its before 6th ed though, from the scuttlebutt at UK GD.

Anyone pondering the implications behind the Thousand Sons head/torso on the Wold Lord on Thunderwolf base? After taking quite a long look at it and comparing it to other models in the range I'm almost certain it's an entirely new piece, or a slightly changed one.

So, new Thousand Sons models or maybe alternate helmets in the near future?

iproxtaco wrote:Anyone pondering the implications behind the Thousand Sons head/torso on the Wold Lord on Thunderwolf base? After taking quite a long look at it and comparing it to other models in the range I'm almost certain it's an entirely new piece, or a slightly changed one.

So, new Thousand Sons models or maybe alternate helmets in the near future?

you could have saved yourself the effort and just read the descriptions on the GW site which clearly states that they are included on the sprues in plastic and resin respectively .

swordwind99 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Anyone pondering the implications behind the Thousand Sons head/torso on the Wold Lord on Thunderwolf base? After taking quite a long look at it and comparing it to other models in the range I'm almost certain it's an entirely new piece, or a slightly changed one.

So, new Thousand Sons models or maybe alternate helmets in the near future?

you could have saved yourself the effort and just read the descriptions on the GW site which clearly states that they are included on the sprues in plastic and resin respectively .

Eh? I think he meant that it was a different look for the TS, and wondered if it heralded an upcoming release of TS using this new style...

Wrong end of stick grabbed, you then jumped in with a snarky insulting post.

Exactly. Why bother resculpitng TS just for the sake of base decoration? It could be a precursor a new range of models...

iproxtaco wrote:Anyone pondering the implications behind the Thousand Sons head/torso on the Wold Lord on Thunderwolf base? After taking quite a long look at it and comparing it to other models in the range I'm almost certain it's an entirely new piece, or a slightly changed one.

So, new Thousand Sons models or maybe alternate helmets in the near future?

brought this up in the tyranids thread for some reason. They do look a little different, though it could just be their paint jobs.

Is it the old helmet from the guy originally produced in 2nd Ed?

It does seem to look like that.

Maybe?



One more picture for reference. Sorry for the big pictures.



IMO, it looks more like the RT era one, but at the same time, there are noticeable differences.

I like the way how that "new" torso has a bit of little throw back to some of the misc. artificer armor models GW had in the RT era days... with the hose going up into the helmet.

swordwind99 wrote:

you could have saved yourself the effort and just read the descriptions on the GW site which clearly states that they are included on the sprues in plastic and resin respectively .

And you could have saved yourself the effort by reading my post a bit more thoroughly before racing to put in a clever comment about something you clearly didn't understand.

Aside, I thought about the retro model too, but there seems to be a few pretty noticeable differences from what I can see. The 2nd ed sculpt has its head kind of buried in the chest, whereas the new one seems to be a separate component. There were also spikes on the top of the crest that have disappeared, and the raised bit down the middle of it seems a lot smoother. There's also a kind od extra spike coming up from the edging round the top of the visor that isn't in the old one, and the two bottom most corners of the crest aren't pointed, but flat. The eye-slits are a lot more open too.

Maybe I'm putting too much stock into things which could well be down to the new paint-job, but it just seems....... New, a lot sharper and well made. Perhaps it's not a completely new sculpt, just a slight re-sculpt of the retro model.

Personaly I'm hopeing this is a sign of things to come. The details on that severed torso looks alot better IMHO then the current metal/plastic hybrids. It's a look that would be awesome to see carry over to the rubric models.

Please god, plastic Thousand Sons... I beg you...

Plastic Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers kits, please and thank you.

I can't wait to see how this shakes out.

Aye, I'd be stunned if GW misses the boat again with the plastics for Slaanesh and Tzeentch armies.


Hmm, so May being a guess from Stickmonkey means this could appear anytime between April and December. Think I shall refocus my energies on potential 6th release being June or July.

Although I really hope we see this sooner, than later, being potentially disapointed in April, May and June, might do bad things for my blood pressure.

Problem is though, Plagues, Rubricae and Noise Marines all need plastic kits, and the Bezerker's kit is pretty weak (I know my brother's constantly complaining about it). Then there's plastic Havocs, Raptors and Dreadnought too.
That's at-least 6-7 Plastic Box-sets, which is a lot...

Current trends suggest they won't bother updating the beserker kit or standard chaos marine kit, but focus on release new kits for stuff that is currently in metal.

Yeah, plastic TKsons would be huge, especially considering how weird a finecast/plastic hybrid kit would be.

kronk wrote:Plastic Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers kits, please and thank you.

I can't wait to see how this shakes out.

Holy crud. Plastic Word Bearers kit.... that would be genius. Not necessarily a replacement for the CSM kit, but something farther into the realm of "Special" marines...

I think of the four cult troop kits, Plague Marines are the least likely to get a new kit seeing as the Finecast version is pretty satisfactory, the Berserkers aren't very likely aside from the fact that the kit itself is pretty bad but is unlikely to get an update before the final two, because those kits are a metal and plastic hybrid kit that has been phased out of every release beginning in 5th if not earlier.

If anything I'm almost expecting a double Noise Marines/1kSons kit, though they will probably be separate.

EDIT: And if this is any indication, the torso bit comes in the Wolf Lord box and is not some cut-up 2nd edition model:

http://dj-batman.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/space-wolves-new-sprues.html

Flashman wrote:Current trends suggest they won't bother updating the beserker kit or standard chaos marine kit, but focus on release new kits for stuff that is currently in metal.

I wouldn't mind, even though I want to make a World Eater army. I was planning on using the Forgeworld World Eater conversion kits on a mix of Chaos Marines and Berzerkers anyway.

Flashman wrote:Current trends suggest they won't bother updating the beserker kit or standard chaos marine kit, but focus on release new kits for stuff that is currently in metal.

Well the current plastic marine set is a good indicator of this. Could they at least refresh the moulds so that the legs aren't so buttery in detail in areas?

Plastic Obliterators? I love the current metals (and hopefully we don't get any Flayed Ones shenanigans) and it would be great to see something like that in good ol' plastic (as well as finally being able to get them at discount again). Hopefully in the end they don't just but all legion conversion kits into failcast and sell them like they do for DoC banners or Von Carstein coffin shields.

Ehsteve wrote:Hopefully in the end they don't just but all legion conversion kits into failcast and sell them like they do for DoC banners or Von Carstein coffin shields.

Well maybe for "minor ones" like night lords an iron warriors (They'll never get any plastics I bet). But the 4 cult ones will probably never ever be a hybrid/conversion kit since none of the new stuff has been like that

I hope that 6th ed comes out BEFORE a new chaos dex. I don't want chaos to be written with 6th in mind, rather than written after 6th is out.

Books written at the end of an edition with the next edition in mind and boox written at the start of the next edition seem to have the same issues, so getting the Chaos book before 6th rather than as the first book of 6th wouldn't make much difference.

Just Dave wrote:Problem is though, Plagues, Rubricae and Noise Marines all need plastic kits, and the Bezerker's kit is pretty weak (I know my brother's constantly complaining about it). Then there's plastic Havocs, Raptors and Dreadnought too.
That's at-least 6-7 Plastic Box-sets, which is a lot...

Well, All the plastic Necron releases were Dual Kits, perhaps we can expect something similar.

Sasori wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Problem is though, Plagues, Rubricae and Noise Marines all need plastic kits, and the Bezerker's kit is pretty weak (I know my brother's constantly complaining about it). Then there's plastic Havocs, Raptors and Dreadnought too.
That's at-least 6-7 Plastic Box-sets, which is a lot...

Well, All the plastic Necron releases were Dual Kits, perhaps we can expect something similar.

Hmmm but pairing up cults would be pretty tough to do

yeah, I cant see duel cult kits coming out though you have to remember there should be a wave 1 and 2 so 7 plastic kits isnt too much to handle for GW

so long as I get my plastic noise marines I'll be happy :3

DPBellathrom wrote:yeah, I cant see duel cult kits coming out though you have to remember there should be a wave 1 and 2 so 7 plastic kits isnt too much to handle for GW

so long as I get my plastic noise marines I'll be happy :3

Hopefully none of them end up like Plague Bearers

Cult troops are a difficult one since they fit a few different roles and have different levels of individuality. I can see Thousand Sons being combined with the regular Legonaire box, considering all you need are a few extra shoulders, helmets, and loin cloths (or whatever they're called). Same with Noise Marines, but with Havocs instead.

Plague Marines will probably just stay as they are since they've only recently been given the finecast treatment. Their individuality is a tad more extreme that the others, requiring Nurgleified versions of every part.

Zerkers will either stay as they are, or should be given their own box. Their legs and weapons are different after all, and their's a whole lot of skulls to fit in.

-Loki- wrote:Books written at the end of an edition with the next edition in mind and boox written at the start of the next edition seem to have the same issues, so getting the Chaos book before 6th rather than as the first book of 6th wouldn't make much difference.

I know we're discussing 40k here, but I wanted to chime in with a bit on fantasy as well-the Skaven book, written with 8th in mind, performs VERY well in 8th edition-better than it did in 7th. Beastmen, well, let's not go there. They sucked in both editions. GW dropped the ball there. Big time. But Skaven perform well, and O&G are actually quite good too. I'd say their recent trend with "right around edition change" is about 66% positive, Beasts being the flub. Granted, that's only fantasy, and both O&G and Skaven were written by the same guy (Jeremy Vettock), and I haven't seen him do a 40k book in a while, so who knows. It was just a thought. Necrons are a solid book now, albeit a few wording issues, and I'm sure they're getting better with 6th. If so, we can expect the next 40k book to get similar treatment, most likely. Just a thought, if they continue on the current trend. I'd like to look at Beastmen as a 'mistake.' Abort that one next time, GW, abort it.

I have high hopes for the next chaos codex then. They are due for a really good one.

I don't have high hopes for the continued existence of this thread though!

This kinda bummed me out, I was hoping Tau would get the May release spot, then DA and CSM could get releases closer to 6th edition's release in the summer. It's good news for CSM but will probably push the tau into early fall, which makes me sad.

Squidmanlolz wrote:This kinda bummed me out, I was hoping Tau would get the May release spot, then DA and CSM could get releases closer to 6th edition's release in the summer. It's good news for CSM but will probably push the tau into early fall, which makes me sad.

Isnt it better to be released after an edition change and not before?


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Alpharius wrote:I don't have high hopes for the continued existence of this thread though!

Aww come on, the cron thread is still going True true it does have more solid info

kenshin620 wrote:

Squidmanlolz wrote:This kinda bummed me out, I was hoping Tau would get the May release spot, then DA and CSM could get releases closer to 6th edition's release in the summer. It's good news for CSM but will probably push the tau into early fall, which makes me sad.

Isnt it better to be released after an edition change and not before?

As far as rules and everything goes, sure. But not so much for instant gratification seekers like myself. Hopefully the update includes enough new stuff to keep me busy at least until the next Guard installment.

iproxtaco wrote:

Aside, I thought about the retro model too, but there seems to be a few pretty noticeable differences from what I can see. The 2nd ed sculpt has its head kind of buried in the chest, whereas the new one seems to be a separate component. There were also spikes on the top of the crest that have disappeared, and the raised bit down the middle of it seems a lot smoother. There's also a kind od extra spike coming up from the edging round the top of the visor that isn't in the old one, and the two bottom most corners of the crest aren't pointed, but flat. The eye-slits are a lot more open too.

Maybe I'm putting too much stock into things which could well be down to the new paint-job, but it just seems....... New, a lot sharper and well made. Perhaps it's not a completely new sculpt, just a slight re-sculpt of the retro model.

The Bolter is also in the way, it's all one piece, bar the backpack, so those pipes on his chest aren't there.

It's either a combination of both old and new or .. gasp .. maybe a plastic son

kenshin620 wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:Hopefully in the end they don't just but all legion conversion kits into failcast and sell them like they do for DoC banners or Von Carstein coffin shields.

Well maybe for "minor ones" like night lords an iron warriors (They'll never get any plastics I bet). But the 4 cult ones will probably never ever be a hybrid/conversion kit since none of the new stuff has been like that

They may in fact get a sprue per legion as far as I am told

If Chaos is next, why are teasing a Dark Angel on the side of White Dwarf magazine currently?

Rumors I’ve read say its DA and Chaos in the 6th edition starter box, so perhaps the tease is for that? Since we will most likely get the new 40K rulebook a few months before the starter (an assumption based on the last time round) I personally don’t think the tease is for the new starter set.

So I’m inclined to think that Dark Angels will be next, perhaps even with a hardcover book released the month before or the month after we get the new 6th edition rule-set. Chaos Legions (or whatever it’s going to be) would then follow on that, around the same time we see the new starter set.

I really hope they don’t follow the WHFB 8th schedule and wait almost 6 months before getting the first new Codex to us. I’d like to see DA, Chaos, Tau and then Ultramarines (Vanilla Marines) done in that order, with that last one coming out in January 2013.

Then Eldar, then SoB, then Orks , then…alright I’m getting OT now…


Dosadi

Dosadi wrote:If Chaos is next, why are teasing a Dark Angel on the side of White Dwarf magazine currently?

It makes up maybe half of a single guy. It's obviously teasing about the Dark Angels, but there's a long way to go.

Has there been anything seen on how daemons will feature in the CSM dex? Is it still going to be crappy lesser/greater one size fits all daemons or are they going to bring back using actual daemons?

Personally, I would like to see the regular ones included again, but in limited numbers. Like a 0-1 choice in each FOC slot. Or at least HQ Troops, Elites, FA. Something like that.

DraconicGuardian wrote:Has there been anything seen on how daemons will feature in the CSM dex? Is it still going to be crappy lesser/greater one size fits all daemons or are they going to bring back using actual daemons?

Personally, I would like to see the regular ones included again, but in limited numbers. Like a 0-1 choice in each FOC slot. Or at least HQ Troops, Elites, FA. Something like that.

I'd honestly rather see CSM daemons stay with the current statline, but give the option for a proper mark of chaos. So for example, the MoK could give +1A & furious assault, while the MoS could give +1I & rending.

Basically, CSM's only get to summon the lowest of the low overall, while the truely powerfull daemonic forces are left in their proper book!
It'll be a huge smack in the face for us Daemon players if CSM's all of a sudden get the same basic daemons as we do, plus the added perk of new pts ajustments/rule tweeks and we stay stuck with our over-costed unit for at least another 1-2+ years!

Experiment 626 wrote:It'll be a huge smack in the face for us Daemon players if CSM's all of a sudden get the same basic daemons as we do, plus the added perk of new pts ajustments/rule tweeks and we stay stuck with our over-costed unit for at least another 1-2+ years!

Would you still be upset if they just gave them to the Word Bearers? They're the ones who are all daemon-crazy and whatnot.

SoulGazer wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:It'll be a huge smack in the face for us Daemon players if CSM's all of a sudden get the same basic daemons as we do, plus the added perk of new pts ajustments/rule tweeks and we stay stuck with our over-costed unit for at least another 1-2+ years!

Would you still be upset if they just gave them to the Word Bearers? They're the ones who are all daemon-crazy and whatnot.

In all honesty as a CSM player I have to agree with Experiment. GW is not going to write 8 lists in a single book like 3.5, because GW dosen't do that any more. So they need to do something with the lessers that still justifies Codexeamons

It was a huge smack in the face to me when my World Eaters lost their bloodthirster and bloodletters.

Experiment 626 wrote:

DraconicGuardian wrote:Has there been anything seen on how daemons will feature in the CSM dex? Is it still going to be crappy lesser/greater one size fits all daemons or are they going to bring back using actual daemons?

Personally, I would like to see the regular ones included again, but in limited numbers. Like a 0-1 choice in each FOC slot. Or at least HQ Troops, Elites, FA. Something like that.

I'd honestly rather see CSM daemons stay with the current statline, but give the option for a proper mark of chaos. So for example, the MoK could give +1A & furious assault, while the MoS could give +1I & rending.

Basically, CSM's only get to summon the lowest of the low overall, while the truely powerfull daemonic forces are left in their proper book!
It'll be a huge smack in the face for us Daemon players if CSM's all of a sudden get the same basic daemons as we do, plus the added perk of new pts ajustments/rule tweeks and we stay stuck with our over-costed unit for at least another 1-2+ years!

I believe this to be the right idea; even without points tweaks I feel the Codex: Chaos Daemons units would be overpowered if ported straight into the Chaos Space Marine Codex, if under the current Summoning rules. They'd get to assault without a turn of weathering fire or the split waves; they can go straight into assault and don't scatter. The mass Power Weapon attacks turning up on your doorstep that you can do little about would not be a fun experience for the opponent.

Fun fact:

As of yesterday, the Raptor with Assault Weapon(from the Collector's section) is no longer available from GW Direct.

So there might be some truth to this after all, as he was available all this time since the FC Raptor box released.

Rbb wrote:It was a huge smack in the face to me when my World Eaters lost their bloodthirster and bloodletters.

That may be so, but if they were ported back in there would be little point to having a Daemons-only 'dex, as it would be better to play the Legions one and get access to more units as a result.
I think modular "basic" daemons are the way to go; they're not terrible as they are, but they do need a bit of oomph.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Rbb wrote:It was a huge smack in the face to me when my World Eaters lost their bloodthirster and bloodletters.

That may be so, but if they were ported back in there would be little point to having a Daemons-only 'dex, as it would be better to play the Legions one and get access to more units as a result.
I think modular "basic" daemons are the way to go; they're not terrible as they are, but they do need a bit of oomph.

It would seem simple just to add in marks (whoa whoa that may be too obvious and practical for GW! )

For example
MoK: +1 A, FC
MoS: +1 I, Fleet
MoN: +1 T, Poison Attacks
MoT: +1 Invl, Shooting Attack
Undivided: Jump Pack (for you furies fans )

Or something

kenshin620 wrote:
MoK: +1 A, FC
MoS: +1 I, Fleet
MoN: +1 T, Poison Attacks
MoT: +1 Invl, Shooting Attack
Undivided: Jump Pack (for you furies fans )

Or something

This is one of those things so neat and simple that we'll -never- see it in a real codex, sadly.

But on that note, I think Undivided should keep the Leadership re-roll and and gain either Counter-attack or Stubborn to highlight their greater organization.

Sephyr wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:
MoK: +1 A, FC
MoS: +1 I, Fleet
MoN: +1 T, Poison Attacks
MoT: +1 Invl, Shooting Attack
Undivided: Jump Pack (for you furies fans )

Or something

This is one of those things so neat and simple that we'll -never- see it in a real codex, sadly.

But on that note, I think Undivided should keep the Leadership re-roll and and gain either Counter-attack or Stubborn to highlight their greater organization.

Hmmm I thought undivided (lesser) daemons tend to be weaker than their marked brethren though

It probly be interesting Units with the MoN were immune to enemy poisoined attacks.

Cyvash wrote:It probly be interesting Units with the MoN were immune to enemy poisoined attacks.

Isnt the fluff justification for poison attacks is more of a catch all term for anything that is good at killing non vehicles? For all we know poison attacks against daemons could be some anti daemon bullets or something. Maybe I'm wrong though

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Rbb wrote:It was a huge smack in the face to me when my World Eaters lost their bloodthirster and bloodletters.

That may be so, but if they were ported back in there would be little point to having a Daemons-only 'dex, as it would be better to play the Legions one and get access to more units as a result.
I think modular "basic" daemons are the way to go; they're not terrible as they are, but they do need a bit of oomph.

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

And yeah, it would be nice if we actually got more Legion units to make up for the fact that we lost Daemons that we had had for more than 2 DECADES.

It's simply that by having Daemons in codex CSM both are limited by the space in the codex given the current format. Just to keep them in CSM they had to lose so much just because of those space limitations making a separate book the only option to give them that room. A separate codex then demands distinctiveness to be justifiable and that means they can't be as much of a part of CSM or else no one would have a reason to play the separate book.

Was it money grab? Of course, but no more than anything else GW does. It's none the less justifiable even if not desired.

I don't think it would be bad to put them back in the book as the regular daemons. You would just have to limit the numbers and probably the types too, so that there would still be a point to the Daemons codex.
Like I said, limiting the Daemons to 0-1 per FOC slot.
Something like this:
HQ - 0-1 Greater Daemon (all 4 types listed)
Elites - 0-1 unit of Bloodletters OR Plaguebearers OR Daemonettes
FA - 0-1 unit of Bloodcrushers OR Seekers OR Plauge Riders (? I honestly do not know the name of Nurgle one in this case)

I think this would allow for some Daemonic flavor to the cult legions without making the daemonic presence overwhelming. And thus keeping the Daemon Codex as a viable choice without resorting to "cookie cutter daemons".

But the CSM codex didn't gain anything when they lost daemons. There were no new units added. If they did add the ability to mark daemons or buy upgrades for them I would be happy. After seeing how they did the GK codex I'm very enthusiastic for the next Csm book. After the bland codex we've had for the past 5 years, almost anything would be better.

I just say let them INVENT NEW UNDIVIDED DAEMONS.

Seriously, I love daemons, lets have more types! Not some crap all "lesser daemons" But daemons that could be used as undivided, and marked.

There'd be a generic "Template" For the gods. Slap a mark on, get stats/specials. Done
For undivided, we get some new ones that are actually named something interesting, not Lesser, but actual new daemons.

DraconicGuardian wrote:I don't think it would be bad to put them back in the book as the regular daemons. You would just have to limit the numbers and probably the types too, so that there would still be a point to the Daemons codex.
Like I said, limiting the Daemons to 0-1 per FOC slot.
Something like this:
HQ - 0-1 Greater Daemon (all 4 types listed)
Elites - 0-1 unit of Bloodletters OR Plaguebearers OR Daemonettes
FA - 0-1 unit of Bloodcrushers OR Seekers OR Plauge Riders (? I honestly do not know the name of Nurgle one in this case)

I think this would allow for some Daemonic flavor to the cult legions without making the daemonic presence overwhelming. And thus keeping the Daemon Codex as a viable choice without resorting to "cookie cutter daemons".

Not going to happen, GW has eliminated 0-1 options (w/ the exception of wargear) from all of their books, they aren't going to add them in, nor are they going to dilute the Daemons as a standalone army by adding their units into another armies book.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Not going to happen, GW has eliminated 0-1 options (w/ the exception of wargear) from all of their books, they aren't going to add them in, nor are they going to dilute the Daemons as a standalone army by adding their units into another armies book.

0-1 may be gone

But "Unique" isnt

The generic demon stat line would be ideal. Greater demon statline in elites. Demon statline in troops. Call it a day. Leave it to the player to make his demons whatever he wants.

aka_mythos wrote:It's simply that by having Daemons in codex CSM both are limited by the space in the codex given the current format. Just to keep them in CSM they had to lose so much just because of those space limitations making a separate book the only option to give them that room. A separate codex then demands distinctiveness to be justifiable and that means they can't be as much of a part of CSM or else no one would have a reason to play the separate book.

Was it money grab? Of course, but no more than anything else GW does. It's none the less justifiable even if not desired.

You know and I know that this is a pretty weak response to gutting out the Chaos Marines, so I'm going to leave it at that.

I don't mind much of GW's choices and they're typically fairly good, but it's pretty hard to believe that anyone thinks that it was a good idea that Daemons and Marines were separated into different codices (except for yes-men)

chaos0xomega wrote:

DraconicGuardian wrote:I don't think it would be bad to put them back in the book as the regular daemons. You would just have to limit the numbers and probably the types too, so that there would still be a point to the Daemons codex.
Like I said, limiting the Daemons to 0-1 per FOC slot.
Something like this:
HQ - 0-1 Greater Daemon (all 4 types listed)
Elites - 0-1 unit of Bloodletters OR Plaguebearers OR Daemonettes
FA - 0-1 unit of Bloodcrushers OR Seekers OR Plauge Riders (? I honestly do not know the name of Nurgle one in this case)

I think this would allow for some Daemonic flavor to the cult legions without making the daemonic presence overwhelming. And thus keeping the Daemon Codex as a viable choice without resorting to "cookie cutter daemons".

Not going to happen, GW has eliminated 0-1 options (w/ the exception of wargear) from all of their books, they aren't going to add them in, nor are they going to dilute the Daemons as a standalone army by adding their units into another armies book.

Aren't Death Company 0-1 unless you take Astaroth?

Rbb wrote:But the CSM codex didn't gain anything when they lost daemons. There were no new units added. If they did add the ability to mark daemons or buy upgrades for them I would be happy. After seeing how they did the GK codex I'm very enthusiastic for the next Csm book. After the bland codex we've had for the past 5 years, almost anything would be better.

well they didn't do it to make you happy as it was obviously to the advantage of the daemons who gained a lot. Everyone admits the current Codex CSM was a wasted opportunity and that GW should've done more. GW's lack of effort with Chaos Space Marines for the last couple editions is a great shame, that even if you preferred the 3.5 edition codirects you would have to admit games workshop did little to expand the concept of chaos and merely refined some of the details. While all the most interesting codices of this addition have been the ones that have expanded on their core concepts.

aka_mythos wrote:

Rbb wrote:But the CSM codex didn't gain anything when they lost daemons. There were no new units added. If they did add the ability to mark daemons or buy upgrades for them I would be happy. After seeing how they did the GK codex I'm very enthusiastic for the next Csm book. After the bland codex we've had for the past 5 years, almost anything would be better.

well they didn't do it to make you happy as it was obviously to the advantage of the daemons who gained a lot. Everyone admits the current Codex CSM was a wasted opportunity and that GW should've done more. GW's lack of effort with Chaos Space Marines for the last couple editions is a great shame, that even if you preferred the 3.5 edition codirects you would have to admit games workshop did little to expand the concept of chaos and merely refined some of the details. While all the most interesting codices of this addition have been the ones that have expanded on their core concepts.

I don't mind consistent refinement. Can you expand on certain aspects? Of course. They expanded greatly on demons and then decided to split it off leaving CSM in the dust. My issue with more expansion every codex is the crap you get in the current GK dex. Dreadknights? Psiguns? Psiammos? Psibereagles? Psilencer? No thanks.
The concept and story of CSMs have already been created but I'd prefer it if they expand and refine on what they have already instead of blindly adding in new things, regardless of sillyness, just to have new models.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

And yeah, it would be nice if we actually got more Legion units to make up for the fact that we lost Daemons that we had had for more than 2 DECADES.

Tentatively agreeing. Traditionally (at least, AFAIR) Daemons never summoned themselves. They were minions (or equal) to the Chaos Marines, who sacrificed mass quantities of humans to bring them to them.

Could be wrong though. I don't remember daemons popping out of the sky in my third edition codex though.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

Wrong sir! Wrong!

Codex Chaos Daemons has its place in the game.

terranarc wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:

Rbb wrote:But the CSM codex didn't gain anything when they lost daemons. There were no new units added. If they did add the ability to mark daemons or buy upgrades for them I would be happy. After seeing how they did the GK codex I'm very enthusiastic for the next Csm book. After the bland codex we've had for the past 5 years, almost anything would be better.

well they didn't do it to make you happy as it was obviously to the advantage of the daemons who gained a lot. Everyone admits the current Codex CSM was a wasted opportunity and that GW should've done more. GW's lack of effort with Chaos Space Marines for the last couple editions is a great shame, that even if you preferred the 3.5 edition codirects you would have to admit games workshop did little to expand the concept of chaos and merely refined some of the details. While all the most interesting codices of this addition have been the ones that have expanded on their core concepts.

I don't mind consistent refinement. Can you expand on certain aspects? Of course. They expanded greatly on demons and then decided to split it off leaving CSM in the dust. My issue with more expansion every codex is the crap you get in the current GK dex. Dreadknights? Psiguns? Psiammos? Psibereagles? Psilencer? No thanks.
The concept and story of CSMs have already been created but I'd prefer it if they expand and refine on what they have already instead of blindly adding in new things, regardless of sillyness, just to have new models.

let's just hope chaos get's an official thunderstike assault gun, seeing as it would help alot

helium42 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

Wrong sir! Wrong!

Codex Chaos Daemons has its place in the game.

Lmao, I'm like, lmao

It has no place in the game and has no place in the fluff

Tentatively agreeing. Traditionally (at least, AFAIR) Daemons never summoned themselves. They were minions (or equal) to the Chaos Marines, who sacrificed mass quantities of humans to bring them to them.

While I hate the CSM/CD split mixup, this is just plain wrong.

Warpstorm randomly generated, random psyker possessions (that could cause a warp rift), not to mention Chaos Daemon Princes along with Greater daemons being able to personally rip normal space a new spacehole and generate warp rifts. Can produce them without need of chaos marines at all.

Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

It's happened often enough that there's a chapter of Space Marines dedicated to specifically dealing with just such an occurence, if you want to look at it like that.
Admittedly CSM doing it is more common, but it's not like rifts are a massively unheard-of or even rare thing.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

A tiny hole is made each time a ship heads into the warp. Now there is a of ships that enter the warp everyday. And many oftentimes even leave with daemons, or leave huge rips in space (Rare, but hey there's plenty of ways besides CSM that rips open things). Warp storms are also Surprisingly Common, to the point that many cities within such sectors have preparation plans for the Hive Cities in case of storm.

As for Common Occurrences.. How often does Gray knights come out to fight everyone and everything with Draigo and a bunch of paladins?

Guess I'll brush up on my fluff then. I'm totally out of the loop of everything, it seems.

Many times, daemons are summoned by mere cultists, with no need for CSM anywhere near.

Just a thought, but if GW continues to like dual kits, and we hear about kits for Legion s, how much sense would a Raptors/Night Lords kit make? All it would need would be 5 extra torso fronts and two sets of heads.

Not a rumor, but it would make sense.

MajorWesJanson wrote:Many times, daemons are summoned by mere cultists, with no need for CSM anywhere near.

Just a thought, but if GW continues to like dual kits, and we hear about kits for Legion s, how much sense would a Raptors/Night Lords kit make? All it would need would be 5 extra torso fronts and two sets of heads.

Not a rumor, but it would make sense.

Uh, why again would Raptors and Night Lords necessarily share any bits at all? They are totally different.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

It's happened often enough that there's a chapter of Space Marines dedicated to specifically dealing with just such an occurence, if you want to look at it like that.
Admittedly CSM doing it is more common, but it's not like rifts are a massively unheard-of or even rare thing.

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.

Dude's, as long as I get a psychic hood or get to make some punks peril, I will *flex* and be happy with the new codex. The thing I am DEFINITELY tired of though is this song and dance of "oh you used a power? nope" from what seems like every army in the game when we get nothing similar. The two powers which were exceptionally cool in this codex got FAQ'd into oblivion to the point where they are barely useful. Warp Time? Joke. Lash? I played 4 games today at my FLGS - take a guess how many times my sorcerer decided to not hit with my non-wounding, ballistics skill rolling "shooting attack". When powers like Jaws of the World Wolf don't roll hits, but remove models or half of a squad without needing to roll to hit.

I call shenanigans. Give me a psychic hood. Let me force mishaps or perils on people. Let me randomly fire someone else's psychic powers. Let me do *something* with my awesome-sauce Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes and Characters besides suck down points and FAIL their way across the table.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Lmao, I'm like, lmao

It has no place in the game and has no place in the fluff

Yes there is... Fluff wise there are daemon planets and daemonic incursions that happen without Chaos space marines.

The fact that 40k focuses on armies like GK, SOB, or the combined volume of SM... Armies that by fluff total fewer than 2 million troops across the galaxy... Makes it easily justifiable that an army composed of something as plentiful as daemons would be more common. To put it another way a players' army represent ~100 soldiers out of millions in a warzone... and from that standpoint if 100 demons can coalesce and form a fighting unit without the presence of a Chaos Space Marine and contribute to that battle zone in a meaningful way they are justified by themselves.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.

No one clamored for Tau, Necrons, or SoB back in the day either. The point I'm insistent on is more daemons would never be possible so long as they were part of the CSM codex because there simply wasn't the room for it.

Saying a mini-WD codex is the solution is a throw away and doesn't accomplish the main goal of justifying GW large capital investment into a large but otherwise secondary miniature line. It was a case of Daemons get a codex or they don't get new plastic miniatures.

terranarc wrote:I don't mind consistent refinement. Can you expand on certain aspects? Of course. They expanded greatly on demons and then decided to split it off leaving CSM in the dust. My issue with more expansion every codex is the crap you get in the current GK dex. Dreadknights? Psiguns? Psiammos? Psibereagles? Psilencer? No thanks.

Spot the guy who apparently never read Daemonhunters, or played second edition - only two of those five items (Dreadknights and Psilencers) are actually new with the GK book.

Njal Stormcaller had the first psi-familiar back in the 2nd edition Space Wolves codex.
Psiguns (by which I'm guessing you mean psycannon, as I'm not familiar with any others in the GK book) were a wargear card in Dark Millennium in second addition.
Psychic ammunition was an upgrade in Daemonhunters.

Actually, the only reason 40K got a Daemons Codex was because they were already producing the models for Fantasy, as they'd split chaos into 3 branches there. So why not cash in on 40K too.

So while they won't make space-Skaven, space-Dwarves or any other derivative fantasy line, they'll poop out a "new" codex line because they're here to sell miniatures. That's why we got a 40K codex. It's the only miniatures that sell to both sides with the exact same figures, so they're doubling up on profit. When that profit line has run its course, we'll see if they discontinue the 40K codex.

...... are there any actual rumors on the codex coming out?

My understanding of the rumor mill is CSM Dex in May. There will be two different ones with 4 chapters each. One is the godded CSM (Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons) the other is traitors (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, forgot 4th). There are rumors that rules for traitor guard and traitor vanilla legions, cultists etc. will be there in respective Dex.

How has this demon wishlisting gone on this long? It idiotic.

GW WILL NOT include demons in ANY future CSM codex. Stop being naive.

We'll probably get generic demons that get different abilities via marks, as has been suggested earlier. Sorry word bearers, GW doesn't care.

Salacious Greed wrote:Actually, the only reason 40K got a Daemons Codex was because they were already producing the models for Fantasy, as they'd split chaos into 3 branches there. So why not cash in on 40K too.

Well, there was a precedent for a Daemon army list - I direct your attention to the "Daemon World" army list in the classic Chaos codex - still the best version of the army book yet produced, back in second edition.

odorofdeath wrote:How has this demon wishlisting gone on this long? It idiotic.

I might have to agree. Daemons and Chaos Marines may be the same "faction" and may have been in the same book long before, but I think we are veering way off course the topic of the new CSM

Hearing some great rumours about chaos, hope they come true. I heard that there will be thousand sons, and slaaneshi terminator upgrades released by forgeworld.

odorofdeath wrote:How has this demon wishlisting gone on this long? It idiotic.

I think that's a bit strong. The only universality when it comes to Games Workshop, Chaos Mortals and their demonic allies is--that is very likely to change over the years. This has held true in Fantasy--as well as 40k.

Blackeye wrote:My understanding of the rumor mill is CSM Dex in May. There will be two different ones with 4 chapters each. One is the godded CSM (Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons) the other is traitors (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, forgot 4th). There are rumors that rules for traitor guard and traitor vanilla legions, cultists etc. will be there in respective Dex.

that won't happen as reliable rumormongers have said one book

its been said it would be in may for a bit now. any new news/idea when in may?

early may?
late may?

news on models?

....news on anything?

marmaduke wrote:its been said it would be in may for a bit now. any new news/idea when in may?

early may?
late may?

news on models?

....news on anything?

Maybe the tumbleweeds floating about may have some info

Dysartes wrote:

terranarc wrote:I don't mind consistent refinement. Can you expand on certain aspects? Of course. They expanded greatly on demons and then decided to split it off leaving CSM in the dust. My issue with more expansion every codex is the crap you get in the current GK dex. Dreadknights? Psiguns? Psiammos? Psibereagles? Psilencer? No thanks.

Spot the guy who apparently never read Daemonhunters, or played second edition - only two of those five items (Dreadknights and Psilencers) are actually new with the GK book.

Njal Stormcaller had the first psi-familiar back in the 2nd edition Space Wolves codex.
Psiguns (by which I'm guessing you mean psycannon, as I'm not familiar with any others in the GK book) were a wargear card in Dark Millennium in second addition.
Psychic ammunition was an upgrade in Daemonhunters.

This. People whine about everything about the Grey Knights Codex, including stuff that was around way before 5th or even 4th edition. It makes me die a little inside every time I read it.

marmaduke wrote:its been said it would be in may for a bit now. any new news/idea when in may?

early may?
late may?

news on models?

....news on anything?

It looking more and more like May, which is coming from several sources now. Does it really matter what part of May the release comes, though? After 5 years does a couple weeks really matter? I'd say early in the month is usually when new books come out, with model releases spread out over the whole month.

Anything model related is pure speculation, aside from what the most reliable rumormongers like harry and Hastings have said. But even if they seen models it does necessarily make them a 1st wave release. For instance, there is said to be a plastic dreadnought in the starter, but that doesn't mean there will be a multipart version available at the codex release. (For what it's worth I tend to doubt that a multipart dreadnought won't be available separate from the starter box dread.)

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

This. People whine about everything about the Grey Knights Codex, including stuff that was around way before 5th or even 4th edition. It makes me die a little inside every time I read it.

People do this for every army. Look at the current stuff in this very thread about Daemons. People hold whatever codex was available when they started as sacrosanct; anything prior is irrelevant and anything after is blasphemy.

aka_mythos wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Lmao, I'm like, lmao

It has no place in the game and has no place in the fluff

Yes there is... Fluff wise there are daemon planets and daemonic incursions that happen without Chaos space marines.

The fact that 40k focuses on armies like GK, SOB, or the combined volume of SM... Armies that by fluff total fewer than 2 million troops across the galaxy... Makes it easily justifiable that an army composed of something as plentiful as daemons would be more common. To put it another way a players' army represent ~100 soldiers out of millions in a warzone... and from that standpoint if 100 demons can coalesce and form a fighting unit without the presence of a Chaos Space Marine and contribute to that battle zone in a meaningful way they are justified by themselves.

Space Marines have been there from the beginning, it's not the same thing. GK have been there since RT, SoB have debatably been around since Rogue Trader.
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.

No one clamored for Tau, Necrons, or SoB back in the day either. The point I'm insistent on is more daemons would never be possible so long as they were part of the CSM codex because there simply wasn't the room for it.

Saying a mini-WD codex is the solution is a throw away and doesn't accomplish the main goal of justifying GW large capital investment into a large but otherwise secondary miniature line. It was a case of Daemons get a codex or they don't get new plastic miniatures.

People wanted SoB, there was a picture of one in the RT rulebook but they weren't called SoB then. The thing about Tau and Necrons is that at least they appealed to a different target market. They all fit in their own little niche in the WH40k lore. Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

Anyway, from the looks of it, the new Starter set is supposed to include Plaguebearers so the new Chaos codex should include them. And then nothing of value is lost.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

Anyway, from the looks of it, the new Starter set is supposed to include Plaguebearers so the new Chaos codex should include them. And then nothing of value is lost.

That is patently false. There are plenty of Daemon players who could care less about CSMs or want powerarmored pals with their Daemons. To think you speak for an entire playerbase of an army is so absurd, I find it really hard to believe you actually think this, and are more likely just bitter about daemons not being in the CSM codex.

There is nothing concrete saying plaguebearers are in the starter box. The only person who claimed this was ghost21, so I hardly think that's reliable info. The only mention of plaguebearers was from Hastings, who just said he had seen plastic plaguebearers, but never gave any indication they were part of a CSM release. GW works on many projects at once, and it's far more likely plastic plaguebearers will be released when daemons get a codex update.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

[MOD EDIT - Now that wasn't very polite, was it?]



Sorry, could'n resist.

[MOD EDIT - please try to resist in the future though - thanks!]

You must not be very familiar with 9GAG, this image wasn't an insult at all,its a gag, or should i say an advanced smiley.

Blackeye wrote:My understanding of the rumor mill is CSM Dex in May. There will be two different ones with 4 chapters each. One is the godded CSM (Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons) the other is traitors (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, forgot 4th). There are rumors that rules for traitor guard and traitor vanilla legions, cultists etc. will be there in respective Dex.

sure do hope the 4th would be word bearers if this is true

but i agree with some people above, the last topic got closed because of too much offtopic talk, so please just stick to news & rumors about the Chaos Legions really hoping for something good here

Cadaver wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

Anyway, from the looks of it, the new Starter set is supposed to include Plaguebearers so the new Chaos codex should include them. And then nothing of value is lost.

That is patently false. There are plenty of Daemon players who could care less about CSMs or want powerarmored pals with their Daemons. To think you speak for an entire playerbase of an army is so absurd, I find it really hard to believe you actually think this, and are more likely just bitter about daemons not being in the CSM codex.

There is nothing concrete saying plaguebearers are in the starter box. The only person who claimed this was ghost21, so I hardly think that's reliable info. The only mention of plaguebearers was from Hastings, who just said he had seen plastic plaguebearers, but never gave any indication they were part of a CSM release. GW works on many projects at once, and it's far more likely plastic plaguebearers will be released when daemons get a codex update.

This is actually pretty new, I never have come across people who don't want Daemons rolled back into a Chaos codex.
I actually do believe that Daemons should be in a Chaos codex, so? And I'm not really bitter, I just think that the Daemons codex should be rolled into a Chaos codex-where they belong.

Also intredasting about there not being plastic plaguebearers in the starter set, that's too bad. Doesn't bother me too much since I play Khorne though haha

:edit: What's up Austin Texas, do you go to UT? I don't have any of my models with me but am curious as to where you can play warhams in Austin

Slayer le boucher wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

[MOD EDIT - Now that wasn't very polite, was it?]

[img]http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2009/1/12/15607-Artwork,%20Chaos,%20Copyright%20Games%20Workshop,%20Slaves%20To%20Darkness.JPG[/mg]

Sorry, could'n resist.

[MOD EDIT - please try to resist in the future though - thanks!]

Lmao, I knew someone was going to bring this up. You could have Daemon armies fight eachother for the enjoyment of the Chaos gods. But they had to fight eachother. So I will amend my statement to "it wasn't up until recently that you could have an all-Daemon army fight outside the Realms of Chaos".

Vladsimpaler wrote:Lmao, I knew someone was going to bring this up. You could have Daemon armies fight eachother for the enjoyment of the Chaos gods. But they had to fight eachother. So I will amend my statement to "it wasn't up until recently that you could have an all-Daemon army fight outside the Realms of Chaos".

*sounds buzzer*

Still factually incorrect, old chap. If I may quote myself from earlier in the thread:

Dysartes wrote:Well, there was a precedent for a Daemon army list - I direct your attention to the "Daemon World" army list in the classic Chaos codex - still the best version of the army book yet produced, back in second edition.

So, by my estimation, we have definite evidence for Daemon army lists in 1st, 2nd and 5th edition (possibly 4th, but I'm not clear on when the Daemon codex was released). The only edition without a Chaos Daemons army list is 3rd.

Care to try again with your assertion?

Vladsimpaler wrote:

This is actually pretty new, I never have come across people who don't want Daemons rolled back into a Chaos codex.
I actually do believe that Daemons should be in a Chaos codex, so? And I'm not really bitter, I just think that the Daemons codex should be rolled into a Chaos codex-where they belong.

Also interesting about there not being plastic plaguebearers in the starter set, that's too bad. Doesn't bother me too much since I play Khorne though

Believe what you want but whether you or anyone around wanted Daemons, they are bigger now than they were when they were crammed into a shared codex with CSM. Regardless of IF that's where the majority of people believe Daemons should be, the simple fact is that it requires so much of Daemons to be left out, and that its only been that they now have their own book that GW's been able to revisit some of the original units and idea from "Realms of Chaos." For me fully representing Chaos Daemons without leaving anything out is just enough of a reason. Would it be beyond amazing if Chaos could have everything in one big book?-Sure, but that's not realistic. So you're left with only two possibilities one where something is marginalized and one where a niche army gets a full codex. While I don't think Codex Daemons was handled particularly well, they are conceptually easily more distinctive and justifiable than any given Space Marine variant codex.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Lmao, I knew someone was going to bring this up. You could have Daemon armies fight each other for the enjoyment of the Chaos gods. But they had to fight each other. So I will amend my statement to "it wasn't up until recently that you could have an all-Daemon army fight outside the Realms of Chaos".

I don't think that matters much given how much it was about flavorful choices back then and how many limited and small army concepts have been allowed to grow to much more. YOU cling to absolute language stating something is a particular way but then speak with condescension when someone presents facts to the contrary. You fixate on the detail that it was only daemons vs. daemons, but it was a larger leap to allow a single unit like GK to become a full army than to simply allow an army to fight other armies than how it was originally intended.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
Space Marines have been there from the beginning, it's not the same thing. GK have been there since RT, SoB have debatable been around since Rogue Trader.
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

Space marines may have been there, but chaos daemons were introduced in WD in the same way that 90% of space marines tanks and units beyond the basic power armored variety... so I see Chaos and Chaos Daemons as no different. GK started as a smaller concept and was allowed to grow. Daemons are a much bigger one that are easily more justifiable for similar or more significant growth.

Vladsimpaler wrote:
People wanted SoB, there was a picture of one in the RT rulebook but they weren't called SoB then. The thing about Tau and Necrons is that at least they appealed to a different target market. They all fit in their own little niche in the WH40k lore. Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

No ones forcing anyone to do anything. The simple fact is every codex revises the way you play an army. With each edition every army is faced with rule driven obsolecene. CSM marginalized Daemons while Codex Chaos Daemons allowed you to do much more. Regardless of Codex Daemons the marginalization of Daemons in Codex Chaos Space Marine was going to happen so those players would lose the ability to which you speak without a separate book. So people who played Daemon heavy armies were faced with a choice, a choice few of us get... play a watered down version with what you have or simply buy a different book to the exclusion of the other book.

GW's own internal investors report on the expansion of product lines for Daemons was that they are an army targeted at a different market by allowing an easy transition for WFB player to 40k... that's a different target market.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

It's happened often enough that there's a chapter of Space Marines dedicated to specifically dealing with just such an occurence, if you want to look at it like that.
Admittedly CSM doing it is more common, but it's not like rifts are a massively unheard-of or even rare thing.

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.

Your first comment I totally disagreed with I think the Daemon dex does have a place. If you where doing something where someone was trapped in the EoT Daemon world army lists would be rather common.

But the only reason I see for the Daemon Dex is marketing went "Wow Chaos players sure like Daemons... I got it lets make a Daemon Dex and make plastic kits for them, we will sell a bucket load of them!" Might of been a better idea of they kept them cross codex CSM/Daemons.

If they'd just bring back the "Ally" Rules for Chaos/Chaos Daemons. We could have an actual reason for them to be separate books and placate the chaos crowd. Just give chaos some summoning rules for them, and daemons maybe a restriction on how many CSM they could take...

ZebioLizard2 wrote:If they'd just bring back the "Ally" Rules for Chaos/Chaos Daemons. We could have an actual reason for them to be separate books and placate the chaos crowd. Just give chaos some summoning rules for them, and daemons maybe a restriction on how many CSM they could take...

Allies made too much sense which is why they dropped it for normal games in both fantasy and 40k

Was going to post since it would be beating a dead horse but... Didn't Grey Knights use to only be a elite choice for Imperial Armies back in the day? In all honesty their is more argument for grey knights not being a standalone army in the game, then Codex: Deamons.

If Deamons have no place as a stand alone army in the game, then Grey knights sure as hell don't.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:If they'd just bring back the "Ally" Rules for Chaos/Chaos Daemons. We could have an actual reason for them to be separate books and placate the chaos crowd. Just give chaos some summoning rules for them, and daemons maybe a restriction on how many CSM they could take...

Ally rules are way to abusable IMHO. "Oh hey. So I can take the most broken units from TWO armies and put them in the same list? Why wouldn't I want to do this?"

My personal experience with allied rules were not that great, as it just diluted the game.
=U

Grey Knights were an army back in the day, but differed little from regular Marine armies. They had a specialist Terminator Squad, but that was about it. They had the same Medics and Tech-Marines and whatnot like everyone else.

In 2nd Ed, when 40K got organised, they became a single 5-man Termy unit as part of the Imperial Agents army list (which was basically a random ally army list, containing everything from Inquisitors to Electro-Priests to Sisters of Battle). In 3rd they were originally a 5-man Terminator unit only playable against Chaos, but eventually got the Daemonhunter Codex to expand them into full list.

Really there’s nothing wrong with a Daemonic Legions Codex (I think their implementation was rather silly, but the concept was fine). What was wrong was taking Daemons out of the Chaos Codex.

I agree with the theory that the Daemons/CSM split was a marketing decision. Whilst a Daemons-only army list might be justifiable, it would have been better off as a WD army list or part of a EoT style expansion book IMO.

The split left both factions worse for ware. Daemons were removed from the CSM book but nothing was added to fill the void. Additionally, the Daemons book is incredibly shallow and there’s not enough content (or quality rules) to justify a “separation of powers”. I think the best solution would be to re-add daemons to the CSM codex and update Daemons for 6th via a WD update.

Lockark wrote:Was going to post since it would be beating a dead horse but... Didn't Grey Knights use to only be a elite choice for Imperial Armies back in the day? In all honesty their is more argument for grey knights not being a standalone army in the game, then Codex: Deamons.

If Deamons have no place as a stand alone army in the game, then Grey knights sure as hell don't.

Just my 2 cents on the subject.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:If they'd just bring back the "Ally" Rules for Chaos/Chaos Daemons. We could have an actual reason for them to be separate books and placate the chaos crowd. Just give chaos some summoning rules for them, and daemons maybe a restriction on how many CSM they could take...

Ally rules are way to abusable IMHO. "Oh hey. So I can take the most broken units from TWO armies and put them in the same list? Why wouldn't I want to do this?"

My personal experience with allied rules were not that great, as it just diluted the game.
=U

That reasoning is why we got a watered down piece of trash SoB codex. So I'm not exactly happy with its loss either. Make it specific units than.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That reasoning is why we got a watered down piece of trash SoB codex. So I'm not exactly happy with its loss either. Make it specific units than.

SoB being trashy has more to do with White Dwarf codexes than losing allies. Ask any BA player that.

Now I suppose a more better example of allies would be the Beasts of Chaos....I'm sorry I meant Beastmen Army book who lost the ability to have some nice heavily armored troops and daemons (along with a lot of other things )

Why does chaos tend to have the factions that get shafted I suppose its their chaotic nature

helium42 wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

There is no point in having a Daemon Codex anyway, it was just a money grab. Put Daemons back in the CSM codex.

Wrong sir! Wrong!

Codex Chaos Daemons has its place in the game.

AGREED!

/proud Chaos Daemons player

Yeah, but how often does that actually happen? Really, I don't see that as a common occurrence. Certainly not enough to warrant a codex of their own, IMO. (The same thing could be said about GK, really)

Its a big galaxy and we're playing over a several thousand year period (not every one of our games need to be set during M41), often enough. Not to mention that there is this large chunk of space called the Eye of Terror, where the warp bleeds into real space and daemonic incursions occur into imperial (and presumably other) worlds regularly. Never heard of it? Huh.... How about the smaller brother known as the Maelstrom? No? Maybe one of the other HUNDREDS/thousands of warpstorms in the galaxy?

It's happened often enough that there's a chapter of Space Marines dedicated to specifically dealing with just such an occurence, if you want to look at it like that.
Admittedly CSM doing it is more common, but it's not like rifts are a massively unheard-of or even rare thing.

If by chapter you mean at least 2... (You forgot about the Exorcists).

Eh, regardless of whether it's "common" or not, I don't ever recall people exactly clamoring for a Daemons-only codex. Maybe more types of Daemons, sure. But never a full-Daemons codex.

I think that a "Daemons only" codex could have been served by a White Dwarf mini-codex and then kept the main bulk of the Daemons with the Chaos forces.

Sounds like sour grapes to me. In reality we were clamoring for Lost and the Damned and they gave us this instead, but I like my Daemons without marines thank you very much. Kindly keep your hands off them.

My understanding of the rumor mill is CSM Dex in May. There will be two different ones with 4 chapters each. One is the godded CSM (Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Thousand Sons) the other is traitors (Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Alpha Legion, forgot 4th). There are rumors that rules for traitor guard and traitor vanilla legions, cultists etc. will be there in respective Dex.

My understanding is that its one book for the 8 legions, and the second book for renegades, cultists, and generic traitors ala lost and the damned.

Space Marines have been there from the beginning, it's not the same thing. GK have been there since RT, SoB have debatably been around since Rogue Trader.
Having an-all Daemon army was something that you couldn't really do until the past couple of years.

Did you miss the part about the Daemon World army list from over a decade ago?

They all fit in their own little niche in the WH40k lore. Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book.

WRONG!!! OMG, are you just making stuff up now?I have not now nor have I ever played Chaos Marines, and yet I own a Daemon army... In fact, i've invested hundreds of dollars as of late to triple its size... Daemons fills a niche just as the Tau and Necrons do, so thats just a complete bogus argument too. Just give up man, you're not getting your daemons back. Don't take the UNVERIFIED RUMOR that the starter set contains a unit of daemons in it to mean that you're getting daemons in your codex...

And in case you're wondering, the reason why the Daemons were removed from the CSM book is the Slaaneshi Daemon Bomb army. Yes, i know most of you youngins have long forgotten about one of the most abused and broken army lists from the 3.5 ed codex, but its the truth. Marines were increasingly playing second-fiddle to the daemons in their own codex, the design studio resolved the issue by separating the two.

The split left both factions worse for ware. Daemons were removed from the CSM book but nothing was added to fill the void. Additionally, the Daemons book is incredibly shallow and there’s not enough content (or quality rules) to justify a “separation of powers”.

What!? Are you kidding me? Its a great book, it has its flaws but it was and is a very playable army and it has a good amount of content relative to other books released around the same time. 9 special characters of which 7 are HQ, plus another 8 non special character HQs, 4 Elites Choices, 5 Troops Choices, 4 Fast, and 2 Heavy. Thats actually more content than the CSM book has, although rather than just having a weak Fast section the Daemons have both a weak fast and a sub-par heavy.

As for nothing 'filling the void', what void? The daemons didn't really provide the book with anything that they didn't already have aside from an overly-abused style of play which opponents had no effective answer to.

What!? Are you kidding me? Its a great book, it has its flaws but it was and is a very playable army and it has a good amount of content relative to other books released around the same time. 9 special characters of which 7 are HQ, plus another 8 non special character HQs, 4 Elites Choices, 5 Troops Choices, 4 Fast, and 2 Heavy. Thats actually more content than the CSM book has, although rather than just having a weak Fast section the Daemons have both a weak fast and a sub-par heavy.

You mean the exact same stuff that Chaos Daemons Fantasy had gotten at the exact same time?

The only reason you have more is because there was plenty taken away from CSM, and you had two books that gave the same stuff.

candy.man wrote:I agree with the theory that the Daemons/CSM split was a marketing decision. Whilst a Daemons-only army list might be justifiable, it would have been better off as a WD army list or part of a EoT style expansion book IMO.

It’s not a ‘theory’; it’s what happened. On his blog, Gav stated that the generic ‘Lesser’ and ‘Greater’ daemons were the compromise he got when he wanted to keep Daemons in the current ‘Chaos’ Codex. We have a Codexaemons because of bean-counters, not because of any great thematic design decision.

candy.man wrote:The split left both factions worse for ware. Daemons were removed from the CSM book but nothing was added to fill the void. Additionally, the Daemons book is incredibly shallow and there’s not enough content (or quality rules) to justify a “separation of powers”. I think the best solution would be to re-add daemons to the CSM codex and update Daemons for 6th via a WD update.

I'd like that as well. Want your Deep Striking Daemon army? Take a Herald as your lead HQ. Want a World Eater army with proper Blood Letters, take a Khorne Marked Lord and take tham as Troops. Easy.

I'd like that as well. Want your Deep Striking Daemon army? Take a Herald as your lead HQ. Want a World Eater army with proper Blood Letters, take a Khorne Marked Lord and take tham as Troops. Easy.

I'd love to have the option for some Flamers to spark up my Thousand Sons as well, but I think we all know that won't happen. Maybe Word Bearers... but probably not. Honestly, I would settle for a generic, modular Demon frame for both Lesser and Greater.

The only good thing about not having the deamons back in the Legion codex, would be that there is thus more room for new units.

But i still hope that you can take "Marked" Deamons,
Like give Summoned Deamons a Khorne "Aspect" or "Mark" and they gain +1 WS and Ferocious Charge and so on.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Cadaver wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Which is what I'm trying to get at; is that the only people who were going to play Daemons were people who played them already in a Chaos book. They were just forced to buy a new book in order to play models that they had already been playing with in older codices.

Anyway, from the looks of it, the new Starter set is supposed to include Plaguebearers so the new Chaos codex should include them. And then nothing of value is lost.

That is patently false. There are plenty of Daemon players who could care less about CSMs or want powerarmored pals with their Daemons. To think you speak for an entire playerbase of an army is so absurd, I find it really hard to believe you actually think this, and are more likely just bitter about daemons not being in the CSM codex.

There is nothing concrete saying plaguebearers are in the starter box. The only person who claimed this was ghost21, so I hardly think that's reliable info. The only mention of plaguebearers was from Hastings, who just said he had seen plastic plaguebearers, but never gave any indication they were part of a CSM release. GW works on many projects at once, and it's far more likely plastic plaguebearers will be released when daemons get a codex update.

This is actually pretty new, I never have come across people who don't want Daemons rolled back into a Chaos codex.
I actually do believe that Daemons should be in a Chaos codex, so? And I'm not really bitter, I just think that the Daemons codex should be rolled into a Chaos codex-where they belong.

Also intredasting about there not being plastic plaguebearers in the starter set, that's too bad. Doesn't bother me too much since I play Khorne though haha

:edit: What's up Austin Texas, do you go to UT? I don't have any of my models with me but am curious as to where you can play warhams in Austin

The point you seemed to be making was that there was not interest in a pure daemon army prior to the daemon codex being released. I was disagreeing with that statement, not that people didn't want daemons in a CSM codex. Of course CSM players want their deamons, I sure do! That being said, I also want a pure daemon option, and there are many daemon players that are not CSM players.


I'm quite a few years past college age, but I did not go to UT. Dragon's Lair is the best gaming store in town, but there are a few others around, they just aren't as big. You can also check out the local Austin forum here if you want to chat with the local gamers around here, but you'll need to register to access the forums.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Grey Knights were an army back in the day, but differed little from regular Marine armies. They had a specialist Terminator Squad, but that was about it. They had the same Medics and Tech-Marines and whatnot like everyone else.

In 2nd Ed, when 40K got organised, they became a single 5-man Termy unit as part of the Imperial Agents army list (which was basically a random ally army list, containing everything from Inquisitors to Electro-Priests to Sisters of Battle). In 3rd they were originally a 5-man Terminator unit only playable against Chaos, but eventually got the Daemonhunter Codex to expand them into full list.

Really there’s nothing wrong with a Daemonic Legions Codex (I think their implementation was rather silly, but the concept was fine). What was wrong was taking Daemons out of the Chaos Codex.

Thank you for the history leason.

But yah. We're fairly on the same page in all honesty. Thow I don't consider the Generic Deamons "taking Daemons out of the Chaos Codex", but more "Removing their flavour". A issue I'm sure everyone agrees the whole 4th ed book suffers from.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
That reasoning is why we got a watered down piece of trash SoB codex. So I'm not exactly happy with its loss either. Make it specific units than.

The SoB WD has issues with it sure, but I don't think "lack of ally rules" is the issue. I describe it as "Lack of any rules that are interesting, compelling, and overly competitive. I've seen people run prety strong armies with the WD, but it's very bear bones and you only can realy only get one good list out of it.

I also should of made my self more clear. Ally rules IN THE WARHAMMER GAMES. If everything was updated in one go like in the other smaller games, then yah ally/merc rules work. Since you know ahead of time how everything will balance/interact when it goes out. The problem is in WHFB/WH40k we get army updates, so what can be balenced at 1st becomes broken when another books gets updated.

=U

Im a new csm player welk waiting on my model to arrive at the shop here but when the does finally come out how will i know

My solution to the Daemons or no Daemons debate:

Keep the Daemons separate, keep the Lesser/Greater Daemon choices in the CSM book as they are now (restat/repoint/rebalance as appropriate). When summoning the Daemons, roll a d6:
1- Generic/Mark of Chaos Undivided
2-Mark of Slaanesh
3-Mark of Nurgle
4-Mark of Khorne
5-Mark of Tzeentch
6-Players Choice
The daemons will be summoned with the upgrade based on the dice roll. If the summoning unit has a mark (other than mark of chaos undivided), then summoned daemons will automatically have that mark as well.

The nature of these upgrades/marks is up to a game designer to decide, IMO, they should NOT be the same thing as the traditional Daemonette/Plaguebearer/Bloodletter/Horror, but they should certainly be fluffy and reasonable. This system keeps with the theme of chaos (randomness) and is fluffy, as most times in the fluff the nature of the daemons being summoned is seemingly unknown until after they manifest. Its luck of the draw really.

Some how I doubt Berserkers praying at their Icon of Khorne would be happy to find demonettes using their newly opened blood portal... skull door..... whatever.

Oh yeah. Random daemon summoning. Great idea.



That was sarcasm.

I would far rather see them markable as a buyable upgrade when you are paying for the unit than having random daemons popping out. Tactically and thematically, I just don't like that idea.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh yeah. Random daemon summoning. Great idea.



That was sarcasm.

Good grief, me and you agreeing on something for once!

I just want the "Chaos" element to the book to be real, and not "D6" based all the time. I dont mind the old Crazed rules for Dreadnought, but loathe Possessed.

It looks like chaos0xomega continues his trend of making posts I dislike with every molecule of my wargaming spirit.

The SoB WD has issues with it sure, but I don't think "lack of ally rules" is the issue. I describe it as "Lack of any rules that are interesting, compelling, and overly competitive. I've seen people run prety strong armies with the WD, but it's very bear bones and you only can realy only get one good list out of it.

Not the reasoning I was using. I was mainly thinking along the lines they really desperately wanted to get rid of the last bit of ally rules, and completely trashed the SoB to a WD-Dex.

I just want the "Chaos" element to the book to be real, and not "D6" based all the time. I dont mind the old Crazed rules for Dreadnought, but loathe Possessed.

I wouldn't mind Possessed if the rules were all GOOD ones, not 1-3 good ones and 3 other horrible ones. Though I'd prefer a purchase system for most of them, with a random D6 roll for an extra bonus on top.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh yeah. Random daemon summoning. Great idea.

That was sarcasm.

Good grief, me and you agreeing on something for once!

I just want the "Chaos" element to the book to be real, and not "D6" based all the time. I dont mind the old Crazed rules for Dreadnought, but loathe Possessed.

Bu-bu-but, don't you like it when your army plays for you and "helps" your strategies right out the window?

That random stuff worked back when everyone had to contend with it, and there was a level of humor in the game. Its an antiquated means of representing a units inconsistencies and really should have died, two editions ago.

I don't really care about Daemons, I use them to represent my Nightblade's aspirants who beam in against Power Armored enemies and if they defeat them, salvage their armor...but that's it. I've been told I should just use C:SM or C:SW to play my Nightblades, but I like mixing in elements from my World Eaters, and my friends let me use the drop pod rules so I'm pretty happy just using C:CSM.

I'd like official rules to use Drop pod assault rules for Chaos Space Marines, and mutable generic daemons/ G Daemons would be cool.

I wonder what, if anything GW is going to do to the 'basic' Chaos Space Marine statline and abilities that will differentiate them from Space Wolf Grey Hunters and the like, how will they change/improve Cult Marines?

I'm a little nervous at the thought of my World Eaters becoming subject to Rage like I've read they were "Back Before I played" though if having that meant that there was very little chance of psychic powers effecting them at all...I'd be OK with it. And I'd like to see Thousand Sons that weren't ruberics/robots (Deathguard are the zombies of the bunch...Ksons are more like automatons), or maybe have sorcerors able to cast a spell which improves weapon strength and AP on nearby friendly units? I know Chaos isn't know for synergistic cooperative things, but it could be interesting.

I'll probably never ever use Deathguard, simply cause I don't like Nurgle...and I don't like Mortarion either. Same reason I would never play Word Bearers, was cause I hate their daddy most (Thumbs up to ADB for confirming in First Heretic what I'd always thought about that wienie.)

Noise marines...while the shooting is appealing, I don't like the Emperor's children (or Slaanesh), and I don't care for the fluff behind the noise marines.

I want to get 2 dreads for my World Eaters...but the prospect of GW releasing a Plastic CSM Dread has me waiting (that, and I don't know how things will change). I'm really at the "Paint and Wait" stage.

Any new rumors, or are we just at the wishlisting stage, now?

kronk wrote:Any new rumors, or are we just at the wishlisting stage, now?

Been at the wishlisting stage for quite some time now.

ph34r wrote:It looks like chaos0xomega continues his trend of making posts I dislike with every molecule of my wargaming spirit.

Amen-the D6 idea for daemons is terrible. I'm playing an Emperor's Children army, summon daemons...and they're Plaguebearers?! WTF. Okay, who screwed up with the summoning...Lucius, dude...not cool. Somebody needs a coke-flavored spanking (I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, don't ask).

And yeah, this thread got abysmally useless. Can we have a MOD lock it until Kroot or someone else of similar rumor-posting ability has more to tell us? I've sifted through the last 4-5 pages (I think) to hopefully catch a bit of information I've missed, and it's all junk. I may have posted something within those 4-5 pages, but it's all still wishlisting and garbage (including my own post, probably-just so you guys know I'm not just harking on all of you).

Brother SRM wrote:

kronk wrote:Any new rumors, or are we just at the wishlisting stage, now?

Been at the wishlisting stage for quite some time now.

Again, actually.

So, this is closed up until such a time as there are actual rumors, pictures, news, etc.

In the meantime, feel free to wishlist, discuss, dream, etc. over in a thread in 40K General...