Space Wolves seem to be the most-hated Chapter after the Ultramarines. But why? Is it because of their "Vikings in SPAAAAACE!" feel? Their 'misguided' actions in the Heresy ( I favor this)? Or their arrogant attitude with the rest of the Imperium and the Codex Astartes in particular (even for Astartes Space Wolves are quite arrogant)?

Some people hate:
-They fact they killed the Thousand Sons (Technically not their fault)
-They get away with a few crimes where other chapter may not
-They 'have wolf in the name of everything' barring canis wolfborn (Even i will admit that went too far) there really isn't that much of a difference from the previous codex...
-Some people hate the super cheesy Sw lists (Though this isn't limited to SW)
-Some people just dislike their models/coulour scheme (perfectly fine IMO)
-Some people hate the vikings in space/werewolves in space thing. This is fairly silly because a fair amount of those people like the mongols in space... Go figure...
As it is i think most of those reasons barring the models/colour scheme are stupid reasons...
But that's just me.

I like the Space Wolves, though some of their fluff is a little odd.

JOTWW on the other hand...

While I agree that the Thousand Sons were already manipulated by Tzeentch, the Space Wolves, and Russ in particular, were idiots for obeying Horus and blowing Prospero to hell, Horus may be Warmaster, but the Emperor's orders were to take Magnus into custody, not to kill him.

Their flagrant disregard of the Inquisition and the fact that they made a loyal legion turn traitor during the HH are the two biggest reasons why I dislike them.

Tadashi wrote:While I agree that the Thousand Sons were already manipulated by Tzeentch, the Space Wolves, and Russ in particular, were idiots for obeying Horus and blowing Prospero to hell, Horus may be Warmaster, but the Emperor's orders were to take Magnus into custody, not to kill him.

And then Horus told them their orders had changed.
They should have checked back yes but why would they have reason to distrust Horus?
People keep saing it like the Wolves should be questioning Horus but he is the Warmaster. He has authority over almost everyone in the Imperium barring a select few individuals.
Moreover he is the Emperor's most trusted son (was rather) why should they have reason to doubt or distrust him?

Coolyo294 wrote:Their flagrant disregard of the Inquisition and the fact that they made a loyal legion turn traitor during the HH are the two biggest reasons why I dislike them.

The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter. And if the Emperor had survived the Heresy, I'm sure Russ would have been rebuked/censored for his actions on Prospero; "You could have tried to speak to Magnus and hear his side of the story, in light of Horus' orders contradicting mine. A follower of the Imperial Truth wouldn't have followed such callous orders and seen something was wrong with them. Russ, I am disappointed." - The Emperor


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purplefood wrote:

Tadashi wrote:While I agree that the Thousand Sons were already manipulated by Tzeentch, the Space Wolves, and Russ in particular, were idiots for obeying Horus and blowing Prospero to hell, Horus may be Warmaster, but the Emperor's orders were to take Magnus into custody, not to kill him.

And then Horus told them their orders had changed.
They should have checked back yes but why would they have reason to distrust Horus?
People keep saing it like the Wolves should be questioning Horus but he is the Warmaster. He has authority over almost everyone in the Imperium barring a select few individuals.
Moreover he is the Emperor's most trusted son (was rather) why should they have reason to doubt or distrust him?

Because the Emperor's orders were to bring Magnus in, not kill him. Horus may be Warmaster, but the Emperor is still the ruler. And the Emperor's commands supersede the Warmaster's. Not to mention that such orders would be unreasonable under the Imperial Truth.

I liked the Space Wolves in "A Thousand Sons", as they fit in with the setting well. Though well-intentioned, they're anti-intellectual space-barbarians granted super human powers. Very over the top and grim dark.

above. i dislike the whole superstitious to a fault, ours is the only true way thing. Though they are the only chapter with any real respect for human soldiers.

In truth Magnus & the TS were well down the path of Chaos it was just Magnus thought he knew better. If Horus hadn't given the order and the Heresy happening in the background. The Emperor would have at some stage anyway. Magnus was was warned not to dabble and his continued dabbling almost brought about the destruction of man by breaching the psychic seals in the palace causing untold damage at the worst possible time.

In a way it was handy for Horus as the SW's took out a foe that he would have found a real threat had if have suceeded in the coup. He would have probably ended up having to share his Chaos throne with Magnus or fighting him for it.

What you also have to remember is there was bad blood between the SW's and the TS's already so when Horus gave the new order I would imagine Russ quite happy to follow it on the Warmasters word. Why wouldn't he? The Emperor probably knew it could only end up one way anyway.

purplefood wrote:Some people hate:
-They fact they killed the Thousand Sons (Technically not their fault)

Honestly this seems like a fairly silly reason to hate them imho. It's pretty obvious that they were manipulated.

purplefood wrote:-They get away with a few crimes where other chapter may not

I'd like to see someone say this is the main reason why they hate Space Wolves.

purplefood wrote:-They 'have wolf in the name of everything' barring canis wolfborn (Even i will admit that went too far) there really isn't that much of a difference from the previous codex...

Valid, but people tend to exaggerate the claims greatly when they mention this one. Even then, it's more silly than hate-worthy.

purplefood wrote:-Some people hate the super cheesy Sw lists (Though this isn't limited to SW)

Again, totally valid and I'm sure this is the #1 reason why people might hate SW.

purplefood wrote:-Some people just dislike their models/coulour scheme (perfectly fine IMO)

Ehhhh I can understand if you didn't like their colour scheme/models, but is it worth hating them purely for that?

purplefood wrote:-Some people hate the vikings in space/werewolves in space thing. This is fairly silly because a fair amount of those people like the mongols in space... Go figure...

Oh c'mon, Vikings/Werewolves IN SPACE is awesome (equally awesome as Mongols IN SPACE)!

Tadashi wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Their flagrant disregard of the Inquisition and the fact that they made a loyal legion turn traitor during the HH are the two biggest reasons why I dislike them.

The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter. And if the Emperor had survived the Heresy, I'm sure Russ would have been rebuked/censored for his actions on Prospero; "You could have tried to speak to Magnus and hear his side of the story, in light of Horus' orders contradicting mine. A follower of the Imperial Truth wouldn't have followed such callous orders and seen something was wrong with them. Russ, I am disappointed." - The Emperor

Pretty much this. To me, the SW/Russ should have questioned why the Emperor changed the order, and even tried to see what Magnus' beef was. Instead, they roflstomped the planet and forced a loyal legion to declare war on the Imperium. Buncha' douchebags.

The question is, do the Space Wolves know this? Do they know that, up until they destroyed Prospero, the Thousand Sons were loyal? Even if they don't, they seen rather elitist.

My main gripe is simply JOTWW. It shouldn't exist.

This isn't coming from me as a Tyranid player, because I don't know any Space Wolves players and I've never had it used against me. Simply, it's a powerful psychic power that avoids almost every hoop you jump through to remove a model from the table.

Roll to hit? Nah. Roll to wound? Nah. Enemy gets an armour save? Nah. Enemy gets an invulnerable save? Nah. Enemy gets a Feel No Pain save? Nah. Enemy gets a cover save? Nah. Enemy has multiple wounds? Doesn't matter. Enemy has Eternal Warrior? Doesn't matter. Model was in a squad, therefore not selectable by the SW player as a target? Doesn't matter.

Psychic test, enemy takes Initiative tests, models under the line (only those under the line, unlike every other shooting ability) that failed removed from the table. It's simply poor game design.

Tadashi wrote:Space Wolves seem to be the most-hated Chapter after the Ultramarines. But why? Is it because of their "Vikings in SPAAAAACE!" feel? Their 'misguided' actions in the Heresy ( I favor this)? Or their arrogant attitude with the rest of the Imperium and the Codex Astartes in particular (even for Astartes Space Wolves are quite arrogant)?

More than any of the above, its their overpowered, undercosted Codex, and the way it unequivocally demonstrates GW's contempt for their fanbase.

Oh, and Space Wolf players' insistence on how their psykers use special snowflake rune magic, and not the warp at all; that gets on my nerves too.

English Assassin wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Space Wolves seem to be the most-hated Chapter after the Ultramarines. But why? Is it because of their "Vikings in SPAAAAACE!" feel? Their 'misguided' actions in the Heresy ( I favor this)? Or their arrogant attitude with the rest of the Imperium and the Codex Astartes in particular (even for Astartes Space Wolves are quite arrogant)?

More than any of the above, its their overpowered, undercosted Codex, and the way it unequivocally demonstrates GW's contempt for their fanbase.

Oh, and Space Wolf players' insistence on how their psykers use special snowflake rune magic, and not the warp at all; that gets on my nerves too.

It also got on Ahriman's nerves. How is the Thousand Sons use of incantations sorcery, when the Space Wolves use runes and 'fenrisian magic' not sorcery?

Their Codex books have been perennially overpowered, dating back to 2nd Edition, and a lot of people think their back story is a bit too over the top for the setting.

Honestly, I prefer the old Pre-2nd Edition version of the Space Wolves. They were both vicious, and serious business.

These guys were bad ass:



These guys are kinda silly:

McNinja wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Their flagrant disregard of the Inquisition and the fact that they made a loyal legion turn traitor during the HH are the two biggest reasons why I dislike them.

The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter. And if the Emperor had survived the Heresy, I'm sure Russ would have been rebuked/censored for his actions on Prospero; "You could have tried to speak to Magnus and hear his side of the story, in light of Horus' orders contradicting mine. A follower of the Imperial Truth wouldn't have followed such callous orders and seen something was wrong with them. Russ, I am disappointed." - The Emperor

Pretty much this. To me, the SW/Russ should have questioned why the Emperor changed the order, and even tried to see what Magnus' beef was. Instead, they roflstomped the planet and forced a loyal legion to declare war on the Imperium. Buncha' douchebags.

The question is, do the Space Wolves know this? Do they know that, up until they destroyed Prospero, the Thousand Sons were loyal? Even if they don't, they seen rather elitist.

They don't. Even if they did, they wouldn't care. Small wonder the Inquisition doesn't trust them. They care little what other Imperial organizations think of them. They disregard the Codex Astartes completely, so I think even the Ultramarines wouldn't trust the Wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skronk wrote:above. i dislike the whole superstitious to a fault, ours is the only true way thing. Though they are the only chapter with any real respect for human soldiers.

Salamanders would roast you over a slow flame for that.

They have beards and ride wolves. Nuff said...

When work ends and I can type on a computer, not a phone, I have a long response as to why the wolves can go themselves...

The only thing I've ever disliked about them is they seem too brightly coloured for what they are. Otherwise, I like them. What's wrong with vikings?

CuddlySquig wrote:The only thing I've ever disliked about them is they seem too brightly coloured for what they are.

Actually I kind of agree on that. Hence why I painted mine black + red.

I like them. To be fair, I think the gray color scheme is a little drab, but that's just me.

I think simply, dirty colours are the most appropriate for an army with the background of the space wolves. Those bright yellows don't do it for me. Jimsolo thinks the grey is drab? I think it's too bluish and pretty, it should be drabber.

Also, some of the hair on the space wolf plastics is just plain silly.

I dislike them for a mix of reasons, which include, but are not limited to:

Space WOLVES with far too much emphasis on the 'Wolves' part.
Wolves who ride wolves next to wolves made of metal which lead packs of wolves - Can be included into the above.
Counter-attack everywhere.
Cheap special weapons with no real justification.
Acute Senses everywhere.
Long Fangs with access to Loyalist weaponry and have Havoc statlines with the ability to take smaller squads and split fire for no extra cost at all.
Lone Wolves; how does being the last guy from your squad suddenly allow you to ignore small arms fire, take a lascannon to the face, headbutt demolisher shells, and still survive?
Wolf Scout Outflank, because only Space Wolf Scouts are that good...

I used to think they were a nice concept; Vikings are naturally cool, so Space Marines who are half Space Marine and half Viking are bound to be awesome. Then C: SW came along and made them 1/9th Space Marine, 2/9ths Viking, and 6/9ths Wolf.

Tadashi wrote:The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Space Wolves are one of the ORIGINAL 18 legions.


Everybody that's posted anything other than this or agreed to anything other than this needs to either facepalm or facedesk themselves right now.

Oppressor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Space Wolves are one of the ORIGINAL 18 legions.


Everybody that's posted anything other than this or agreed to anything other than this needs to either facepalm or facedesk themselves right now.

Original 18? I don't think even GW have gone as far as to retcon out the 2 missing legions, considering that the 20th Legion is still in fluff.

Also technically, they're a Second Founding Chapter too, since the Second Founding was simply splitting the remaining loyalist Legions into Chapters, with one of the Chapters maintaining the colours, heraldry, name etc. of their parent Legion.

The current Space Wolves chapter is therefore both a First Founding Legion and a Second Founding Chapter, as is every loyalist First Founding Legion

Avatar 720 wrote:

Oppressor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Space Wolves are one of the ORIGINAL 18 legions.


Everybody that's posted anything other than this or agreed to anything other than this needs to either facepalm or facedesk themselves right now.

Original 18? I don't think even GW have gone as far as to retcon out the 2 missing legions, considering that the 20th Legion is still in fluff.

Name the 2 missing legions, their iconography, their colors, combat doctrine or any actions they have performed. Explain how they were even legions to begin with.

Also technically, they're a Second Founding Chapter too, since the Second Founding was simply splitting the remaining loyalist Legions into Chapters, with one of the Chapters maintaining the colours, heraldry, name etc. of their parent Legion.

This is a joke. Technically they are now called a chapter, but as they are still of the original 18 legions, and outside of one unsuccessful second founding successor chapter (wolf brothers), have NOT split up, they are still a legion... Read their codex and fluff.

The current Space Wolves chapter is therefore both a First Founding Legion and a Second Founding Chapter, as is every loyalist First Founding Legion

See the above response. The current state of the SW is that they are a founding legion, that is called a chapter.

As I promised (not that anyone cared), once I reached my hotel after a long day of work, I'd post why I hate the wolves. When I first saw the codex coming out and got peaks at it, I thought "cool, it's Norse mythology in 40k. I'm gonna love this-I just hate the wolf captain model with twin wolf claws. But the book is gonna be great. Thor and Loki are both in it-nice!"

But...then I got to know more about the chapter and the SW kits came out. I hate the wild hair-it looks ridiculous in power armor. It doesn't look grim, it doesn't look space age, it looks childish. The models really look like a lunatic with split personality disorder (not that all people with SPD are lunatics, just that the artist is both) designed them. (power armor and wild hair DON'T mix!!)

Then I saw the ridiculousness of JotWW. Wow. Just...wow. Plus Chaos Marine stats with counter attack, enhanced senses, better havocs and of course the standard ATSKNF (which chaos's lack of is the reason for their cheaper marines, however they need SOMETHING like it) at 15pts/model.

Finally, we get to the real fluff outside of Norse mythology-I finally read (sorta) the Thousand Sons book in audio format. Leman Russ is a donkey cave of the highest order-he hated Magnus, had obnoxiously arrogant battle leaders (I wanted Magnus to eat Arnie Skarson Skarsonson's head) who DEMANDED Magnus attend to Russ's needs. What STUPID, MORONIC marine makes a demand of a Primarch. Obviously Skarsonson rides the special bus (and his idiotic name proves it-anyone who finds that name cool needs his head examined). Ulfrik (I think) Weirdmake is another awful wolf-befriends Ahriman, acts like a buddy and shares secrets, then denounces them all at the council of Nikea (if spelled correctly). He is foolish enough to claim his abilities are given by his planet, not the warp-even when not ON his planet. An idiot? Oh yeah. Thank God Ahriman killed him. So we have morons who insult primarchs and lying, deceiving jackasses (which I learned is an appropriate term that is acceptable in childrens cartoons, MODs, so please don't edit it out-if seeking proof, watch the 90s Iron Man-Mandarin calls Fin Fang Foom a jackass in it) who betray those they call "friend" while it's convenient.

And because I felt it deserved its own paragraph, to the ignorant who claim Russ was "duped" by Horus-did you forget Russ and the Wolves hated the Thousand Sons already for their sorcery? Horus just gave them the opportunity to do what they wanted to do already. They were only too pleased to destroy the TSs. The whole damn wolfen society can burn to the ground.

Okay, my rant is finished, and can be summed up succinctly below:
-hate the models
-hate certain stupid rules
-hate the jackassary of the characters in the fluff

what a worthless army.

Tadashi wrote:

McNinja wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Their flagrant disregard of the Inquisition and the fact that they made a loyal legion turn traitor during the HH are the two biggest reasons why I dislike them.

The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter. And if the Emperor had survived the Heresy, I'm sure Russ would have been rebuked/censored for his actions on Prospero; "You could have tried to speak to Magnus and hear his side of the story, in light of Horus' orders contradicting mine. A follower of the Imperial Truth wouldn't have followed such callous orders and seen something was wrong with them. Russ, I am disappointed." - The Emperor

Pretty much this. To me, the SW/Russ should have questioned why the Emperor changed the order, and even tried to see what Magnus' beef was. Instead, they roflstomped the planet and forced a loyal legion to declare war on the Imperium. Buncha' douchebags.

The question is, do the Space Wolves know this? Do they know that, up until they destroyed Prospero, the Thousand Sons were loyal? Even if they don't, they seen rather elitist.

They don't. Even if they did, they wouldn't care. Small wonder the Inquisition doesn't trust them. They care little what other Imperial organizations think of them. They disregard the Codex Astartes completely, so I think even the Ultramarines wouldn't trust the Wolves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

skronk wrote:above. i dislike the whole superstitious to a fault, ours is the only true way thing. Though they are the only chapter with any real respect for human soldiers.

Salamanders would roast you over a slow flame for that.

I think the Salamanders are one of the most humanitarian Chapters. I think there's another that cares more than they do about collateral damage (chapter name starts with a C, and it ain't the Carcharodons). Also, I don't trust them (the SWs) any further than I can throw them, and considering that if they did exist I couldn't throw them at all, I don't trust them. Or I wouldn't. Buncha mooks.

During 2nd to 4th edition I was a Space Wolf player myself (although I did not play or collect a lot during 4th). I really loved them and would have considered them the coolest marine legion evar. Now? I would not say I hate their current incarnation, but I really don't like it.

The reasons, for me, are:

1: Wolf wolfy wolfwolf. Before the 5th ed codex, Space Wolves were Vikings in Space, norse mythology and all that jazz - that was cool. There was a hint of werewolf, too, but only a hint. Now there is almost no vikingness left, but only werewolves in space. That's boring. I would like my vikings back, but I do not think I'll really try that anymore.

2: The models. They, too, were quite vikingy in 2nd to 4th ed, but the new ones are just too exaggerated. The hairdos are completely silly, and while I practically invented the idea of an extra sprue with wolf tails, tooth necklaces and gak during 2nd edition (ie, before there was one), the new sprues have entirely too many extra wolfy bits and entirely too few normal marine bits. Not to mention the size of some of the stuff.

3: Just having read Battle for the Abyss (not a terribly good read, but okay), I must add that the stereotypical dumb barbarian style that is used to depict them a lot nowadays is rather boring, too. I liked the old Ragnar books a lot, though. But those were written before everything was wolfed up...

I became interested in the wolves after reading Prospero Burns. The savage, superstitious, nordic/celtic style described in the book felt interesting.
They perform these old rituals, which actually use the warp in various ways, because they are afraid of what might happen when anything changes.

The thing is that they might be correct. The 40k world does not seem to reward exploration and inventions regarding the warp.


But the models, codex, rules and everything else GW does around that chapter only emphasize the wolf side and making them be the best in every aspect. There is so much more that could be done with this theme than putting marines on giant wolves.

Counter attack is very fitting (if it cost them something), but why should they have the best physic powers and the best devastators? It just makes no sense.

Oppressor wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Oppressor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Space Wolves are one of the ORIGINAL 18 legions.


Everybody that's posted anything other than this or agreed to anything other than this needs to either facepalm or facedesk themselves right now.

Original 18? I don't think even GW have gone as far as to retcon out the 2 missing legions, considering that the 20th Legion is still in fluff.

Name the 2 missing legions, their iconography, their colors, combat doctrine or any actions they have performed. Explain how they were even legions to begin with.

The aren't there so you can make up your own but are referenced in the fluff and rumour ahs it the SW wiped out one while the other one joined with the Ultramarines

Skylifter wrote:3: Just having read Battle for the Abyss (not a terribly good read, but okay), I must add that the stereotypical dumb barbarian style that is used to depict them a lot nowadays is rather boring, too. I liked the old Ragnar books a lot, though. But those were written before everything was wolfed up...

To be fair, you can hardly blame the Space Wolves as a whole for Ben Counter being an abysmally bad author.

Otherwise, sure, why not. The wolf thing is overblown (not the wolf names, mind you, the emphasis on it being everywhere in the 'dex) as a lot of those names have been in the dex since 2nd ed, but with the addition of newer ones on top of them, yeah, I can see why people would be annoyed with that.

Oppressor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The only thing that probably shields them from the Inquisition is their status as a Second Founding Chapter.

NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Space Wolves are one of the ORIGINAL 18 legions.


Everybody that's posted anything other than this or agreed to anything other than this needs to either facepalm or facedesk themselves right now.

Yes, the Legion was called the Space Wolves. The point, however, is easier to explain using the Imperial Fists as example:

As the Legions were split up, the Chapters that were created were made up entirely of veterans from the Great Crusade and the Heresy. Claiming that the Imperial Fists Chapter has a greater claim to the glories gained by the Imperial Fists Legion than the Crimson Fists or the Black Templars is blatantly unfair: the original Crimson Fists and Black Templars fought as Imperial Fists, after all. As such, the most prestigious founding is the Second Founding. Third and onward have little to no claim to the glories, seeing as they're made up of new recruits, but all the Second Founding Chapters should be considered equal.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Skylifter wrote:3: Just having read Battle for the Abyss (not a terribly good read, but okay), I must add that the stereotypical dumb barbarian style that is used to depict them a lot nowadays is rather boring, too. I liked the old Ragnar books a lot, though. But those were written before everything was wolfed up...

To be fair, you can hardly blame the Space Wolves as a whole for Ben Counter being an abysmally bad author.

Otherwise, sure, why not. The wolf thing is overblown (not the wolf names, mind you, the emphasis on it being everywhere in the 'dex) as a lot of those names have been in the dex since 2nd ed, but with the addition of newer ones on top of them, yeah, I can see why people would be annoyed with that.

Well, true, if it were only for that one book, I'd probably not mind, but actually the SW are depicted as a rather blunt tool throughout the HH novels whenever they are mentioned by anyone outside their legion. I have not read further than Battle for the Abyss up to now, though.

It isn't the number of wolfy names that annoy me, either (though Canis Wolfborn really has to be one of the worst names by GW ever), it is that while in 2nd, Wolves were kind of just their totem animal in a mainly viking/barbarian culture, now everything in their background has to do with some actual kind of wolf - it has simply become overwhelming, pushing aside the viking theme almost completely. Even the fething hairdos in the new sprues look as though the sculptor had seen X-Men too much (and a wolverine isn't even a kind of wolf, it is a weasel, doh).

Well, since I've managed to enter this thread before some of the more notorious Space Wolf haters, I'll express my opinion and why I disagree with some of the more common reasons for hating the Space Wolves (after all, if i agreed with them, I wouldn't like the Space Wolves):

A Thousand Orphans.

People's most regularly touted (don't use that word often) reasons for disliking the Space Wolves is their near-destruction of the Thousand Sons; effectively forcing them to turn to the side of Chaos. "But Dave, how can you agree with them destroying a chapter full of really cool Egyptian magicians and shizzle when they could have arrested the really cool Egyptians and shizzle?!" you may ask... It's not that I entirely agree with the action, it's that I don't disagree. Why?

The Emperor said "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Leman Russ was present when the Emperor said this and did indeed "visit such destruction" upon the Thousand Sons. Magnus didn't just continue to employ psychic powers, he did so in a manner that completely/notoriously crippled the Emperors work on Terra and much of the functioning on Terra itself.

Thousand Sons/Prospero Burns/Outcast Dead spoilers:

In Battle of the Fang, Magnus himself acknowledges that Russ took no pleasure in attacking him and the Thousand Sons. This seems pretty true too; that the victim of Russ' actions justifies him, whilst Russ lost many of his Legion, couldn't return to help the Emperor and previously expressed dissatisfaction at the notion of attacking his brothers, this does seem to make sense.

Again, I'm not saying I completely agree with the Space Wolves' actions, but as a Legion that were apparently used to do the dirty work and within the above context, I think it makes a lot of sense and doesn't really render the Space Wolves to blame IMHO. And that's not even going into the flaws of the Thousand Sons...


Nobody expects the Spacewolvestodefythe Inquisition

People often criticse the Space Wolves for defying the Inquisition. Personally, for this, I applaud them. In a civilization where the individual means nothing and power is given to the corrupt and scheming, I applaud the Space Wolves for not blindly following the orders of the Imperium and Inquisition. Lexicanum states:

"Although they had won, the victorious soldiers of Armageddon were doomed. They had gained knowledge of the existence of Chaos, and been exposed to its corruption. The Inquisition had all of the people who fought on the planet, except for the Space Marines, sterilized and placed in work camps. Armageddon was re-colonized by people from other regions of space with no knowledge of the war. Logan Grimnar battled long and hard to prevent this, but he failed and has never forgiven the Inquisition for doing what he saw as a betrayal of the people who had fought honorably for their homes and for the Imperium."

So I applaud the Space Wolves for not bowing to the Inquisition, at this moment or others. I applaud the Space Wolves for staying true to the ideals of the (comparatively) golden era of the Emperor's Great Crusade and for not following the orders of the Inquisition or Imperium.
But the Space Wolves aren't alone in this; the Black Templars are the (probably) largest Space Marine Chapter and apparently have a close eye kept on them by the Inquisition, The Dark Angels follow their own agenda rather than the Imperium's/Inquisitions and provide little gene-seed for the creation of new chapters, the Blood Angels are notably divergent with flawed gene-seed and Chaos-like behaviours, and the list goes on...

The Space Wolves are probably amongst the most powerful Chapters in the Imperium and fiercely loyal to humanity and the Emperor, but not the Inquisition. I think it's not so much that the Space Wolves get away with things they shouldn't, but that for the Imperium they are MUCH better as an ally than an enemy, they are a well-known and well-liked Chapter, who is very active in defending humanity and fighting Chaos. I believe that not only are the Space Wolves doing the right thing by not following the orders of the Inquisition, but ultimately the Inquisition has little to gain by trying to bring them 'to heel.

Wolves, Wolves, Wolves, Wolves.

Another common criticism of the Space Wolves is the unoriginal naming of their equipment; that it all begins with Wolf. However, I feel this is made out to be much worse than it actually is (on the internet?! Never!). This naming convention goes back to 2nd(?) edition and actually makes sense. For example, a Wolf Tail Talisman is... A Wolf Tail! A Wolf Tooth Necklace is... A necklace made from a wolf's teeth! I don't see what else people would expect these items to be called? Then we get to more modern inventions, such as Lone Wolves and Wolf Claws. I think these too are appropriately named; Wolves have claws; it's an appropriate description and good imagery. Lone Wolf is an apt title for a unit, taken from an existing and well-known phrase.

Compare this naming convention, for example, to that displayed within the Blood Angels Codex, or the Grey Knights Codex. Bloodfists are just DCCW's, they're not made of blood and have no relation to blood except that they may cause it to leak from an unfortunate target. Bloodstrike Missiles, Bloodlance, Bloodshard Rounds; the same can be said for all of these. Whereas most of the titles within the Space Wolf Codex makes sense, these do not IMHO.

However, I do agree that Canis Wolfborn does have a rubbish title (and model).

Space Wolves are the most overpowered Codex Space Wolves have released for a decade!

But, can you definitively say that they are any more powerful than Grey Knights or Imperial Guard? Or that they cannot be beaten by other armies such as Necrons or Dark Eldar?
I agree, there are some internal balance issues within the Codex and it often doesn't encourage tactical gameplay; e.g. Long Fangs/Grey Hunters/ Rune Priests, but to say they are overpowered or unbeatable is incorrect IMHO, nor is it unique to the Space Wolves.

Vikings in Sphess

And? Vikings are cool. Things such as their theme and appearance are really characterful IMHO, so long as they don't go too far. Many Chapters/factions have obvious themes and these are preferences unique to individuals. I mean, for me, I really like the viking aspect to them, it was this image that inspired me to collect Space Wolves:



------

So, hopefully that wall of text explains my reasons for liking Space Wolves, why I personally disagree with some peoples reasons for disliking the Space Wolves, which hopefully I have shown may at-least be somewhat unjustified.

Dave, your first spoiler isn't actually in the box

Aside from how rediculous the rules and unit point costs are (though from what I've heard SW have always been a little OP), I dislike how often the fluff contradicts itself.

I wouldn't say that's a spoiler though (hence it's exclusion was intentional); everyone knows about Nikaea, I don't think an exact quote makes a difference IHMO.

I think every chapter has its inconsistencies and things people don't like about them.

I play Space Wolves because I like their theme and their fluff. Their rules on the tabletop don't fit my list for them (I don't do Runepriest, Long Fang, and Razorback spam) but I still find them awesome to paint and convert.

The Wolves are a chapter of a proud heritage and arguably the most loyal to the Emperor. Even after 10,000 years of constant turmoil, they remain true to their original ideas. They are the loyal dogs of the Emperor and whose bite is worse than their bark(yes I just said that).

Show me another original legion that laughs at the Codex Astartes and dislikes anyone who abuses the heroes of the Imperium (aka the Inquisition after the First War of Armageddon).

No matter what you say, the Space Wolves don't care. They will keep fighting and dying in battle just like Russ intended.

Ahh look, another thread for the whiners to get out their weekly SW tears.

Trolling/flamebaiting is not allowed on this site. Thanks ~ Manchu

The Inquisition is there for a reason, and for a good one. I'll be the first to say the Inquisition are a bunch of backstabbing, conniving, and ruthless pricks, but they are a necessity. As Chapter Master Angelos said: "Innocents die so humanity can live!" - you may say that bombing regiments during the 13th Black Crusade and 'locking down' the survivors of the First Armageddon War is going too far and condemning true Imperial heroes, but is there a guarantee that even if they endured the Chaos then, can they endure or escape the touch of Chaos afterwards? There is none. The Inquisition cannot ignore such risk, and even the Astartes must compromise, and grimly accept the Inquisition's decision. After all, the Astartes have the memories of their own cousins reminding them of how insidious and dangerous the touch of Chaos is...the Inquisition knows this too, and neither organization needs reminding.

"...the Inquisition merely performs the duty of it's office. To further fear them is redundant, to hate them, heretical."
- Chapter Master Gabriel Angelos, Blood Ravens Chapter, Adeptus Astartes

I don't hate the Inquisition, I hate the Ecclesiarchy, but I only disapprove of the Inquisition's methods, neither condoning nor condemning, just accepting.

And don't think Astartes and Inquisitors bear no guilt over their actions...their still Humans, and no matter what bio-engineering/cybernetic augmentation, they still have a conscience, and they have to live with that for the rest of their extended life-spans.

Tadashi wrote:Space Wolves seem to be the most-hated Chapter after the Ultramarines. But why? Is it because of their "Vikings in SPAAAAACE!" feel? Their 'misguided' actions in the Heresy ( I favor this)? Or their arrogant attitude with the rest of the Imperium and the Codex Astartes in particular (even for Astartes Space Wolves are quite arrogant)?

There are multiple reasons for this.

They come off as arrogant in a very un-viking way, almost hipster like, *especially* in Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons. They try to be too many, contradictory, often hypocritical things. "We don't use Psykers, they're bad, we have Rune Priests, they use the native power of Fenris, you've probably never heard of it..."

They try to be "dark" and "intentionally misunderstood" executioners in Prospero Burns who are simultaneously amazing spymasters with an excellente intelligence network while being intelligent and highly disciplined warriors while trying to portray an image of undisciplined brutality to their own allies for god knows what reason but being highly superstitious fighting for an Emperor who is trying to stamp out exactly such practices, making extensive use of psychic support despite condemning it elsewhere. They try to be basically "Space Berzerkers" in other fluff where basically they win through being more ferocious than their opponents with none of the subtlety/cunning mentioned in the HH books. They try to be "the good guys" in other fluff, caring about the average citizen, etc. They try to be the "pranksters" in some fluff like crashing thunderhawks for pranks and whatnot. In others they come off as half-werewolf psychopaths, etc.


They try to be too many things at once that contradict each other, and they try too hard in general, always having to be portrayed as not just Space Marines, no they can't be 'just' Space Marines, they have to be Space Marines but Fighter, Thinkier, Berzerkerier, Wolfier....in other words, they 'have' to be "Space Marines+1"


The way they are written all too often also reads like bad internet fanfiction. Firing artillery by *smell*? Then rushing forward to watch the explosions (thus exposing an artillery platform to direct enemy fire...exactly what it was designed *not* to do, or just being impossible given that the often the point of artillery is to fire at things that it's not possible to get at) because it's amusing? That's really the actions of genetically engineered disciplined and combat experienced super soldiers?



TL;DR try to be too many contradictory things, arrogant in an annoying "hipster" way, fluff written in the vein of bad fanfic. Space Vikings *can* be cool, just not like this.

It also doesn't help that their army list also plays like "SM's+1", and highly incentivizes army builds that play more like one would expect from Iron Warriors (lots of heavy weapons troops in mulitples of 3, lots of vehicles and tanks and small heavily armed troops units in armies with more long range AT guns than most IG armies) than one would expect of aggressive and melee oriented Space Vikings.

Just Dave wrote:
But the Space Wolves aren't alone in this; the Black Templars are the (probably) largest Space Marine Chapter and apparently have a close eye kept on them by the Inquisition, The Dark Angels follow their own agenda rather than the Imperium's/Inquisitions and provide little gene-seed for the creation of new chapters, the Blood Angels are notably divergent with flawed gene-seed and Chaos-like behaviours, and the list goes on...

Actually, this is right. Almost every SM chapter has had problems with the Inquisition at some stage, simply because the SM as a whole have a tendency to act as a law unto themselves.
Hell, even the quote-unquote Perfect Ultramarines do not like or trust the Inquisition, even if they are willing to work with them; incidents in the Ultramarines omnibus can back this up nicely.
Fact is that SM and the Inquisition end up staring each other down a hell of a lot more often than is sometimes acknowledged, and the incidents with the SW are just a fraction of this.

However, I do agree that Canis Wolfborn does have a rubbish title (and model).

Yeah, Dog Wolfborn (it's dog in Roman Latin [as opposed to scientific latin], not wolf, people) and Derpywolf suck. I hate that model with a passion.

Space Wolves are the most overpowered Codex Space Wolves have released for a decade!

But, can you definitively say that they are any more powerful than Grey Knights or Imperial Guard? Or that they cannot be beaten by other armies such as Necrons or Dark Eldar?
I agree, there are some internal balance issues within the Codex and it often doesn't encourage tactical gameplay; e.g. Long Fangs/Grey Hunters/ Rune Priests, but to say they are overpowered or unbeatable is incorrect IMHO, nor is it unique to the Space Wolves.

It's definitely got balance issues, as Dave says, but it's far from unbeatable. You still need to be able to play with some skill or your Pups are going home without their front teeth.
Calling them the "most broken codex in a decade" is a sign that someone hasn't played too many games against them.

My reason for disliking Space Wolves is the fact that every time I fight one I get the feeling that there's no point in playing Black Templars at the moment. The only units I have that are better than the Wolf counterpart are Vindicators (which are semi-competetive at best), Assault Terminators (again, semi-competetive for us Templars), Land Speeder Typhoons and Techmarines (third semi). They outshoot me and match me in assaults. It's just an exercise in futility.

The fluff is not a big problem for me though, although Canis Wolfborn needs to burn

In order of biggest reason to least
-fething Space Vikings. I hate Vikings so this is extremely unappealing to me. (I hate Space Mongolians also)
-The way they act in the stories, not how arrogant, the fact that they are damn near savages and morons who think they are smart (I havnt read Prospero Burns, Im sure this book does them justice though)
-How Leman Russ behaved when he met the Emperor. (All the other Primarchs [but Angron] immediately pledge loyalty or at least realized the Emp was their superior, Russ challenges him to a drinking and eating contest?)
-The over dose of Wolves. feth off about the wolves. The Ultramarines dont have Ultra-Captains or Ultra-Speeders
-Their hypocracy about Librarians and Rune Priest
-They butchered the Thousand Sons


Had it just been any one or two of these I wouldnt have mind them but all of them (probably 3-4) just causes me to roll my eyes and hate them. The only thing that I like about them is they respect anyone who fights with them and stood up to the Inquistion to defend the Imperial Guard.

and in an unrelated note, their models are fething horrible. I mean HORRIBLE

Galdos wrote:
-They butchered the Thousand Sons

Good.
I'm sorry, but this has been hashed over already in this thread and it's an unreasonable attitude.
It wasn't a case of the poor lil' Thousand Sons getting picked on and beaten up by those mean horrible Spess Wolves, you know.
The Emperor, as stated above by Dave, had repeatedly made his views on the overuse of Psykers clear, and given that Horus was a master manipulator (who also knew how to twist the Big E's words), any legion that was sent to bring the Sons to task would have been manipulated into doing the same.
Hell, what did you think would happen to the Sons once they'd been brought to Terra? A quick telling-off and "Don't do it again, you naughty boys?"
The Emperor thought Magnus had become tainted by Chaos, and according to the rulings at the Council of Nikea, Magnus' life was probably forfeit anyway.

I think Dave probably gave the perfect answer to this thread...

My hate for the Space wolves mostly stems from personal experience with them
See me and my friends used to have a functioning group I played as vanilla Marines, we had a Chaos, Ork, and Tau player. Then one our friends deiced to play Space Wolves and I all went down the crapper. His army pretty much steamrolled through all of our with is overpowered bs, Group dynamic was destroyed, now instead of getting and painting whatever we wanted, we've all turned super competitive just so we can keep up with the Space Wolves BS.
Their fluff is also dumb. Their to over the top in there wolfieness. Their not Space Vikings their space Furries. They're also Super Special Snowflakes at everything. Seriously have they ever lost a battle in the fluff?
Did I mention how stupid a lot of their models look? Seriously the Space Wolves

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Galdos wrote:
-They butchered the Thousand Sons

Good.
I'm sorry, but this has been hashed over already in this thread and it's an unreasonable attitude.
It wasn't a case of the poor lil' Thousand Sons getting picked on and beaten up by those mean horrible Spess Wolves, you know.
The Emperor, as stated above by Dave, had repeatedly made his views on the overuse of Psykers clear, and given that Horus was a master manipulator (who also knew how to twist the Big E's words), any legion that was sent to bring the Sons to task would have been manipulated into doing the same.
Hell, what did you think would happen to the Sons once they'd been brought to Terra? A quick telling-off and "Don't do it again, you naughty boys?"
The Emperor thought Magnus had become tainted by Chaos, and according to the rulings at the Council of Nikea, Magnus' life was probably forfeit anyway.

A couple things.

The Space Wolves weren't supposed to destroy the Thousand Sons, the Collected Visions book makes it clear they were to bring Magnus back alive to power the Golden Throne so the Emperor could help lead the defense and repair the Imperial Webway being built beneath the palace which was damaged by Magnus's psychic signal.

Second, while the Emperor banned the practice of using Librarians and psychic powers amongst the Astartes, the Wolves also continued to use theirs, under the willfully delusional concept that their Rune Priests aren't psykers, but merely "tapping into Fenris", though to everyone else it was obvious what they were.

I swear i read a version where it was sorcery that was banned whilst psykery merely became another weapon in their arsenal...
I liked that... that was good... it made sense...

Vaktathi wrote:A couple things.

The Space Wolves weren't supposed to destroy the Thousand Sons, the Collected Visions book makes it clear they were to bring Magnus back alive to power the Golden Throne so the Emperor could help lead the defense and repair the Imperial Webway being built beneath the palace which was damaged by Magnus's psychic signal.

I didn't know this. Thanks for the info. At the same time, the Emperor's wording at Nikea can be, well, ambiguous. Come to think of it, not unlike the man himself.

EDIT: Interestingly, I looked this up, and it seems that actually the Emperor changed his mind about placing Magnus on the Throne after his intrusion into the Imperial Palace, so it still seems he was to be brought there for punishment.
And yeah, the SW weren't supposed to destroy the Sons, but when you have the Warmaster telling you that's the Emperor's orders, then you don't question it - after all, you have no idea that he's a traitor at this stage.

Second, while the Emperor banned the practice of using Librarians and psychic powers amongst the Astartes, the Wolves also continued to use theirs, under the willfully delusional concept that their Rune Priests aren't psykers, but merely "tapping into Fenris", though to everyone else it was obvious what they were.

Indeed, the SW were being delusional - or ignorant - here, and it is impossible to argue otherwise.
However, the issue still stands that the SW are being blamed for actions in which the blame rightly rests with the manipulator, not the manipulated.

In some ways yes I agree the blame rests with the manipulator instead of the manipulated, but at the same time, at least in Prospero Burns, they are presented in such a way that they would supposedly be "too smart for that" without irony, and it didn't take too much in the way of convincing to get them to go overboard.

The attitude presented as a result of that incident, rather than the incident itself, is the biggest turn off to the wolves there.

I do share the gripe with the Wolves continuing to use Sorcery, but at the same time I think even that can make sense, as, as Purple' said, it's a weapon and the Space Wolves use all available weapons. Then there's the question of whether the Emperor was banning all psychic powers or only unsanctioned psychic powers? He still created the Grey Knights after all, he may have sanctioned Space Wolves to use psykers for this...
Maybe the Emperor was doing it to try and save Magnus, who ultimately damned himself anyway?
Furthermore, did the Space Wolves really use psychic powers that much after Nikaea?

I'm not trying to defend it as I dislike this part of their background also, and I don't want to discuss this part any further as it's largely speculation, but even the continued use of psychic powers has a lot of variables and possible justifications and may be expanded upon later in the series.

The funny thing is all the reasons listed to hate the Space Wolves by some are exactly the reasons others are drawn to them.

I guess it comes down to the Marmite factor.

Personally I think I am drawn to the Space Wolves for the same reason I am drawn to Rorschach in the Watchmen. They come across slightly psychotic, extremely adaptable, resourceful, loyal to their allies, more intelligent than percieved and once angered there is no compromise or exception only extreme sanction backed by an unwavering force of will.

Chimaera wrote:The funny thing is all the reasons listed to hate the Space Wolves by some are exactly the reasons others are drawn to them.

I guess it coes down to the Marmite factor.

Personally I think I am drawn to the Space Wolves for the same reason I am drawn to Rorschach in the watchmen. They come across slightly psychotic, extremely adaptable, resourceful, more intelligent than percieved and once angered there is no compromise or exception only extreme sanction.

I do like that myself...

I'll agree with Dave about Magnus screwing up by destroying the Emperor's creation and disobeying orders. Hell, Magnus ADMITTED to screwing up and sat around, waiting to die. He knew he deserved it. Doesn't change the fact that the Wolves treated the Sons (and Magnus) like crap before Magnus screwed up (see my earlier post). The wolves (and Death Guard) demanded the Emperor to abolish librarians and sorcerors, as did his trusted advisors, so he did. Listening to (or reading) the story, it's quite easy to see that the Emperor didn't want to, but as he was advised by most others to do so, he went along with it, with a heavy heart. Russ had a hard-on for Magnus's death, or at the very least incarceration, from the get-go. Horus telling him "kill the TSs, don't just bring them in in chains" only played to what Russ wanted. He was arrogant, stupid (those two usually go together), and was blissfully happy to get to kill his own brother. I'm pretty sure you can't get more chaotic than that. Had Leman Russ turned to chaos instead of Magnus, I'd be a lot cooler with their background-it would make sense for him and his flea-ridden lot to perform the actions that they did. Magnus, for all his faults, performed his actions out of loyalty. Russ wanted the Sons exterminated even before it became a matter of loyalty-he and his kin showed blatant disregard for their fellow brothers before and during the council, and they were only too happy to wipe them out. Given only a glimpse of his actions after the council of Nikaea, Russ looks like he's a loyal son, only doing his job and being tricked by a being he still (unfortunately) calls brother (Horus). However, witnessing his and his pets' actions before Nikaea, he (and they) show the true colors of the Wolves as being colossal douche-bags of the highest order.

timetowaste85 wrote:I'll agree with Dave about Magnus screwing up by destroying the Emperor's creation and disobeying orders. Hell, Magnus ADMITTED to screwing up and sat around, waiting to die. He knew he deserved it. Doesn't change the fact that the Wolves treated the Sons (and Magnus) like crap before Magnus screwed up (see my earlier post). The wolves (and Death Guard) demanded the Emperor to abolish librarians and sorcerors, as did his trusted advisors, so he did. Listening to (or reading) the story, it's quite easy to see that the Emperor didn't want to, but as he was advised by most others to do so, he went along with it, with a heavy heart. Russ had a hard-on for Magnus's death, or at the very least incarceration, from the get-go. Horus telling him "kill the TSs, don't just bring them in in chains" only played to what Russ wanted. He was arrogant, stupid (those two usually go together), and was blissfully happy to get to kill his own brother. I'm pretty sure you can't get more chaotic than that. Had Leman Russ turned to chaos instead of Magnus, I'd be a lot cooler with their background-it would make sense for him and his flea-ridden lot to perform the actions that they did. Magnus, for all his faults, performed his actions out of loyalty. Russ wanted the Sons exterminated even before it became a matter of loyalty-he and his kin showed blatant disregard for their fellow brothers before and during the council, and they were only too happy to wipe them out. Given only a glimpse of his actions after the council of Nikaea, Russ looks like he's a loyal son, only doing his job and being tricked by a being he still (unfortunately) calls brother (Horus). However, witnessing his and his pets' actions before Nikaea, he (and they) show the true colors of the Wolves as being colossal douche-bags of the highest order.

I agree with your comments on Russ' character flaws but your point makes it look like Magnus doesn't have any...
IMO he has the exact same character flaws.
Though i disagree with the idea that Russ enjoyed it...
He may not have liked his Brother or his ideas or sorcery but he didn't seem to show any enjoyment of Magnus' demise or that of his legion...

Just Dave wrote:In Battle of the Fang, Magnus himself acknowledges that Russ took no pleasure in attacking him and the Thousand Sons. This seems pretty true too; that the victim of Russ' actions justifies him, whilst Russ lost many of his Legion, couldn't return to help the Emperor and previously expressed dissatisfaction at the notion of attacking his brothers, this does seem to make sense.

Just Dave wrote:I do share the gripe with the Wolves continuing to use Sorcery, but at the same time I think even that can make sense, as, as Purple' said, it's a weapon and the Space Wolves use all available weapons. Then there's the question of whether the Emperor was banning all psychic powers or only unsanctioned psychic powers?

IIRC (don't have any books in front of me right now) he banned Librarian departments and decreed that psykers currently amongst the Legions return to their battle companies and no longer make use of psychic powers.

He still created the Grey Knights after all, he may have sanctioned Space Wolves to use psykers for this...

yes, but after Horus had been defeated and a conclusive need for the Inquisition and the Grey Knights established. Notice that loyalist Chapters have Librarian departments now too, so something obviously changed, just not in time to save the Thousand Sons, possibly as a result of realizing what they were really trying to do and avoid a repeat of the mistake of ordering the attack on them? Who knows.

Furthermore, did the Space Wolves really use psychic powers that much after Nikaea?

As far as we can tell there's no indication they modified their behavior at all in any way.

I'm not trying to defend it as I dislike this part of their background also, and I don't want to discuss this part any further as it's largely speculation, but even the continued use of psychic powers has a lot of variables and possible justifications and may be expanded upon later in the series.

It's possible, but going on what we've got so far it puts the Wolves in a poor light for many.

Chimaera wrote:The funny thing is all the reasons listed to hate the Space Wolves by some are exactly the reasons others are drawn to them.

I guess it comes down to the Marmite factor.

Personally I think I am drawn to the Space Wolves for the same reason I am drawn to Rorschach in the Watchmen. They come across slightly psychotic, extremely adaptable, resourceful, loyal to their allies, more intelligent than percieved and once angered there is no compromise or exception only extreme sanction backed by an unwavering force of will.

That would be fine in most circumstances, but the awful cartoony writing (both in tone and acts, e.g. the targetting whirlwind rockets by smell...I get a visual of them reminiscent of the Professor Farnsworth and his smell-o-scope) coupled with the "we're marines but BETTER!" and hypocritical and/or contradictory nature of their acts often making them look very arrogant/hipster-y makes them unpalatable to many.

There's a lot of potential for a very cool faction there I feel, but they *really* botched the execution.

purplefood wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote:I'll agree with Dave about Magnus screwing up by destroying the Emperor's creation and disobeying orders. Hell, Magnus ADMITTED to screwing up and sat around, waiting to die. He knew he deserved it. Doesn't change the fact that the Wolves treated the Sons (and Magnus) like crap before Magnus screwed up (see my earlier post). The wolves (and Death Guard) demanded the Emperor to abolish librarians and sorcerors, as did his trusted advisors, so he did. Listening to (or reading) the story, it's quite easy to see that the Emperor didn't want to, but as he was advised by most others to do so, he went along with it, with a heavy heart. Russ had a hard-on for Magnus's death, or at the very least incarceration, from the get-go. Horus telling him "kill the TSs, don't just bring them in in chains" only played to what Russ wanted. He was arrogant, stupid (those two usually go together), and was blissfully happy to get to kill his own brother. I'm pretty sure you can't get more chaotic than that. Had Leman Russ turned to chaos instead of Magnus, I'd be a lot cooler with their background-it would make sense for him and his flea-ridden lot to perform the actions that they did. Magnus, for all his faults, performed his actions out of loyalty. Russ wanted the Sons exterminated even before it became a matter of loyalty-he and his kin showed blatant disregard for their fellow brothers before and during the council, and they were only too happy to wipe them out. Given only a glimpse of his actions after the council of Nikaea, Russ looks like he's a loyal son, only doing his job and being tricked by a being he still (unfortunately) calls brother (Horus). However, witnessing his and his pets' actions before Nikaea, he (and they) show the true colors of the Wolves as being colossal douche-bags of the highest order.

I agree with your comments on Russ' character flaws but your point makes it look like Magnus doesn't have any...
IMO he has the exact same character flaws.
Though i disagree with the idea that Russ enjoyed it...
He may not have liked his Brother or his ideas or sorcery but he didn't seem to show any enjoyment of Magnus' demise or that of his legion...

Just Dave wrote:In Battle of the Fang, Magnus himself acknowledges that Russ took no pleasure in attacking him and the Thousand Sons. This seems pretty true too; that the victim of Russ' actions justifies him, whilst Russ lost many of his Legion, couldn't return to help the Emperor and previously expressed dissatisfaction at the notion of attacking his brothers, this does seem to make sense.

I haven't read BotF yet, I'm basing it purely off of reading stuff on wiki's and A Thousand Sons (and for my lack of some knowledge on the lore, I apologize). And I felt that addressing Magnus admitting he screwed up means he recognized his own flaws and accepted his fate for them, but I could see that going either way as enough or not enough info. His sons at least seemed to enjoy what they were doing (look to Weirdmake's actions and attitudes) in ATSs, and ultimately the Wolves themselves are in question, not Russ. I still don't like him, but it's his sons and their attitudes I hate more.

They tend to be horrible Marry Sues ( or the male equivalent ) even amongst an entire faction of Marry Sues.
Oh, and i am not a big fan of their visual style.
Still, one would have to be seriously braindamaged to actualy hate an army of plastic men.

What makes Magnus feel he was wrong is that he realized what he had destroyed and what it entailed in breaking through the psychic barriers of the Emperor's palace, basically he hadn't had any idea of what he was getting into and ruined the Emperor's great works in attempting to warn him of Horus's treachery. What's worse is that the Emperor didn't really pay attention to the message, only the damage inflicted.

Vaktathi wrote:What makes Magnus feel he was wrong is that he realized what he had destroyed and what it entailed in breaking through the psychic barriers of the Emperor's palace, basically he hadn't had any idea of what he was getting into and ruined the Emperor's great works in attempting to warn him of Horus's treachery. What's worse is that the Emperor didn't really pay attention to the message, only the damage inflicted.

Magnus is the crux of the whole issue as he drives his legion. While he thinks in his own mind he is loyal to the Emperor. Really he is just a pawn of Tzeentch as are his legion. He truly realises his folly at the end when he fully submits himself to Chaos to save his Legion.

Someone mentioned Weirdmarke's actions in ATS. I actually remember him saving one of the key TS characters from his over indulgence in the Warp to the point he was going to be comsumed/killed by it only that Weirmarke intervened.

Fundamentally I think the difference between the Rune Priests and the TS was that TS thirsted for knowledge they didn't fully understand and could neither fully control. Tzeentch played them for fools as their desires feel straight in to his lap. The RP's on the other hand drew their power from belief and lore and never thirsted to keep pushing their abilities via meddling in the Warp to extreme lengths. I don't think the Emperor or his advisors had a problem with Psykers as such. It was Psykers who didn't operate within tolerable limits that were the problem.

People forget the SW's purpose was as the Emperor's ultimate sanction and executioners of other Space Marine legions. While I don't believe they took any pleasure in carrying out this sanction (you get hints of it here and there). They understood their role and the burden it carried. This was the reason it was also hinted somewhere that Russ could never become Warmaster as it raised a conflict of interest and that the other Primarchs/Legions understood the SW's role and for this reason Russ was never going to be the party favourite .

Chimaera wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:What makes Magnus feel he was wrong is that he realized what he had destroyed and what it entailed in breaking through the psychic barriers of the Emperor's palace, basically he hadn't had any idea of what he was getting into and ruined the Emperor's great works in attempting to warn him of Horus's treachery. What's worse is that the Emperor didn't really pay attention to the message, only the damage inflicted.

Magnus is the crux of the whole issue as he drives his legion. While he thinks in his own mind he is loyal to the Emperor. Really he is just a pawn of Tzeentch as are his legion. He truly realises his folly at the end when he fully submits himself to Chaos to save his Legion.

Someone mentioned Weirdmarke's actions in ATS. I actually remember him saving one of the key TS characters from his over indulgence in the Warp to the point he was going to be comsumed/killed by it only that Weirmarke intervened.

Fundamentally I think the difference between the Rune Priests and the TS was that TS thirsted for knowledge they didn't fully understand and could neither fully control. Tzeentch played them for fools as their desires feel straight in to his lap. The RP's on the other hand drew their power from belief and lore and never thirsted to keep pushing their abilities via meddling in the Warp to extreme lengths. I don't think the Emperor or his advisors had a problem with Psykers as such. It was Psykers who didn't operate within tolerable limits that were the problem.

People forget the SW's purpose was as the Emperor's ultimate sanction and executioners of other Space Marine legions. While I don't believe they took any pleasure in carrying out this sanction (you get hints of it here and there). They understood their role and the burden it carried. This was the reason it was also hinted somewhere that Russ could never become Warmaster as it raised a conflict of interest and that the other Primarchs/Legions understood the SW's role and for this reason Russ was never going to be the party favourite .

I was the one posting about Weirdmake, so I thought I'd answer-yeah, he saved one of the TSs (I think it may have been Ahriman, actually), and he feigned friendship-would you a trust a guy who saved your life? I would. Then blindsided, the guy who saves your life denounces you and says you need to give up your entire life. What? Oh, then he happily kills your brother after he reveals his true nature and comes to kill you too. Yeah, a jerk-off move if I ever saw one.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Chimaera wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:What makes Magnus feel he was wrong is that he realized what he had destroyed and what it entailed in breaking through the psychic barriers of the Emperor's palace, basically he hadn't had any idea of what he was getting into and ruined the Emperor's great works in attempting to warn him of Horus's treachery. What's worse is that the Emperor didn't really pay attention to the message, only the damage inflicted.

Magnus is the crux of the whole issue as he drives his legion. While he thinks in his own mind he is loyal to the Emperor. Really he is just a pawn of Tzeentch as are his legion. He truly realises his folly at the end when he fully submits himself to Chaos to save his Legion.

Someone mentioned Weirdmarke's actions in ATS. I actually remember him saving one of the key TS characters from his over indulgence in the Warp to the point he was going to be comsumed/killed by it only that Weirmarke intervened.

Fundamentally I think the difference between the Rune Priests and the TS was that TS thirsted for knowledge they didn't fully understand and could neither fully control. Tzeentch played them for fools as their desires feel straight in to his lap. The RP's on the other hand drew their power from belief and lore and never thirsted to keep pushing their abilities via meddling in the Warp to extreme lengths. I don't think the Emperor or his advisors had a problem with Psykers as such. It was Psykers who didn't operate within tolerable limits that were the problem.

People forget the SW's purpose was as the Emperor's ultimate sanction and executioners of other Space Marine legions. While I don't believe they took any pleasure in carrying out this sanction (you get hints of it here and there). They understood their role and the burden it carried. This was the reason it was also hinted somewhere that Russ could never become Warmaster as it raised a conflict of interest and that the other Primarchs/Legions understood the SW's role and for this reason Russ was never going to be the party favourite .

I was the one posting about Weirdmake, so I thought I'd answer-yeah, he saved one of the TSs (I think it may have been Ahriman, actually), and he feigned friendship-would you a trust a guy who saved your life? I would. Then blindsided, the guy who saves your life denounces you and says you need to give up your entire life. What? Oh, then he happily kills your brother after he reveals his true nature and comes to kill you too. Yeah, a jerk-off move if I ever saw one.

This, basically. He saved him so he could turn on him when it was to his legions advantage to do so. Not the actions of an honorable forthright Viking warrior

Also, the "ultimate sanction/executioners" aspect reeked of arrogance the way it was portrayed, to the point where it sounds like it was something the SW's made up for themselves, rather than something the Emperor actually intended them for. IIRC it's also a rather new aspect of their fluff created for the HH series.

Weirdmarke could probably see the writing on the wall and that the TS had fallen to Chaos and could probably see the future that awaited for Ahriman.

Magnus is also not whiter than white. he was quite happy to use an innocent to infiltrate the SW's ranks. Rather than kill him on discovery they showed some compasion although in the end I think they put him in stasis due to threat he represented.

Actually it isn't made up by themselves. It's pretty heavily hinted they had to do it once before with a heavy heart. It's also portrayed in the books that they are the Emperor's ultimate sanction/failsafe against another Legion. Take that as arrogance if you will but thats what their role is.

Just Dave wrote:Well, since I've managed to enter this thread before some of the more notorious Space Wolf haters, I'll express my opinion and why I disagree with some of the more common reasons for hating the Space Wolves (after all, if i agreed with them, I wouldn't like the Space Wolves):

<snip a lot of good writing>

This is pretty much how I feel. SW is not the most powerful codex on the table right now, and even if it was, someone has to be the top dog. I'm sorry its just not the codex (you the person reading this) currently playing.

I also think that a lot of the SW hate comes from the fact that they are somewhat getting a lot of attention right now. Second wave of models, several novels published fairly recently, the continuation of SW hate threads that pop up every week.

If White Scars got this much attention, I think a lot of people would hate on them. Because its easier to go with the flow (especially a negative flow) than stick up for what you like especially on the internet where its just about impossible to get called out for it.

But I'll acknowledge that there are some out there who genuinely hate them. I currently really hate and can't stand the GKs. I've never cared that much for blood angles either. But thats me and you are you.

In addition, its your game, its your battles. If a part of the fluff of (insert army here) annoys you, just ignore it. Its not like anyone is trying to reproduce "named epic battle fought in some novel" here.

Chimaera wrote:Weirdmarke could probably see the writing on the wall and that the TS had fallen to Chaos and could probably see the future that awaited for Ahriman.

They hadn't fallen by then, they didn't turn to Chaos until forced into battle against their own and did so out of desparation. They may have been not quite as aware of what they were messing with as Librarians are now, but they weren't undercover Tzeentch cultists either, not knowingly or willingly. It wasn't until Prospero was in ruins and Magnus gravely wounded that they turned to Chaos and Tzeentch for salvation. They may have been manipulated into getting to that point, but weren't themselves aware of or willingly following that path until then.

Magnus is also not whiter than white. he was quite happy to use an innocent to infiltrate the SW's ranks.

Yes, but he was never trying to fulfill a Viking archetype/theme either

Actually it isn't made up by themselves. It's pretty heavily hinted they had to do it once before with a heavy heart.

It's entirely possible to have created that identity for themselves and still feel that way, but they seemed to enjoy it, at least to some extent, and didn't take much convincing to destroy the Legion and Prospero when their original orders had simply been to retrieve Magnus and bring him to Terra.

Either way, the way they described it really came of as annoyingly arrogant in Prospero Burns.

It's also portrayed in the books that they are the Emperor's ultimate sanction/failsafe against another Legion. Take that as arrogance if you will but thats what their role is.

Aside from ATS/PS, I don't recall anywhere else this is really mentioned.

Vaktathi wrote:It's also portrayed in the books that they are the Emperor's ultimate sanction/failsafe against another Legion. Take that as arrogance if you will but thats what their role is.

Aside from ATS/PS, I don't recall anywhere else this is really mentioned.

Outcast Dead and the Word Bearer book.

Jayden63 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Well, since I've managed to enter this thread before some of the more notorious Space Wolf haters, I'll express my opinion and why I disagree with some of the more common reasons for hating the Space Wolves (after all, if i agreed with them, I wouldn't like the Space Wolves):

<snip a lot of good writing>

This is pretty much how I feel. SW is not the most powerful codex on the table right now, and even if it was, someone has to be the top dog. I'm sorry its just not the codex (you the person reading this) currently playing.

I also think that a lot of the SW hate comes from the fact that they are somewhat getting a lot of attention right now. Second wave of models, several novels published fairly recently, the continuation of SW hate threads that pop up every week.

If White Scars got this much attention, I think a lot of people would hate on them. Because its easier to go with the flow (especially a negative flow) than stick up for what you like especially on the internet where its just about impossible to get called out for it.

But I'll acknowledge that there are some out there who genuinely hate them. I currently really hate and can't stand the GKs. I've never cared that much for blood angles either. But thats me and you are you.

In addition, its your game, its your battles. If a part of the fluff of (insert army here) annoys you, just ignore it. Its not like anyone is trying to reproduce "named epic battle fought in some novel" here.

I can't speak for others, but for me, your reasoning for hate couldn't be further from the truth-I couldn't stand them before their new models were coming-the TWs and FWs have no basis for my hate. I didn't hate White Scars when Korsaro Khan came out, nor Dark Eldar when they got a new army. I usually like opponents getting new things they've been waiting for, and I sometimes like to pick up new things I'd never use (like a new Hive Tyrant). I'm not a sucker sheep who goes with everyone else either, my opinion is my own. And yes, I recognize you mentioned some people just straight up hate them (I'm one of em)-so I'm not claiming you're wrong, wrong, wrong-just that your opinion definitely doesn't describe me, and I'll assume it probably doesn't cover most others. Let the SW hate continue! It nourishes me...

Just wait till another set of BL books comes out showing a completely different portrayal of [insert chapter(s) here] to have everyone up in arms on the exact opposite sides...


"Zomg! In Prospero doesn't burn, magnus is a complee toolbag! Thank the emprah that Russ did the knoble thang and dealt with magnus before (spoiler) happened!!!"

Ebb and flow, pendulum effect, whatever.

Vaktathi wrote:

Chimaera wrote:Weirdmarke could probably see the writing on the wall and that the TS had fallen to Chaos and could probably see the future that awaited for Ahriman.

They hadn't fallen by then, they didn't turn to Chaos until forced into battle against their own and did so out of desparation. They may have been not quite as aware of what they were messing with as Librarians are now, but they weren't undercover Tzeentch cultists either, not knowingly or willingly. It wasn't until Prospero was in ruins and Magnus gravely wounded that they turned to Chaos and Tzeentch for salvation. They may have been manipulated into getting to that point, but weren't themselves aware of or willingly following that path until then.

Magnus is also not whiter than white. he was quite happy to use an innocent to infiltrate the SW's ranks.

Yes, but he was never trying to fulfill a Viking archetype/theme either

Actually it isn't made up by themselves. It's pretty heavily hinted they had to do it once before with a heavy heart.

It's entirely possible to have created that identity for themselves and still feel that way, but they seemed to enjoy it, at least to some extent, and didn't take much convincing to destroy the Legion and Prospero when their original orders had simply been to retrieve Magnus and bring him to Terra.

Either way, the way they described it really came of as annoyingly arrogant in Prospero Burns.

It's also portrayed in the books that they are the Emperor's ultimate sanction/failsafe against another Legion. Take that as arrogance if you will but thats what their role is.

Aside from ATS/PS, I don't recall anywhere else this is really mentioned.

The TS were down the path to Chaos from the point they awoke dark tech and Magnus killed the Serpent on the planet I cannot remember the name of. They were pawns wholly from this point as the snake let Magnus kill him just so he would believe he was all powerful so he could be manipulated further. Weirdmarke was probably just assessing how far they had gone and knew they would not return in to the fold. Magnus thought he was stronger than the Chaos gods but in the end he realised he was a pawn all along and he submitted fully. If he was truly loyal why didn't he choose the honourable/loyal path and die in battle.

Do you think the Vikings of old didn't use cunning, deception or outright underhand tactics to achieve their goals? I also don't see the SW's as being based on Vikings alone but a sort of mash up between the Celt, Pict, Druid and Norse mythology.

When they attacked Prospero do you honestly think they could have done it half hearted?

Pretre has covered this one off.

They wouldn't have attacked Prospero half hearted but that doesn't mean they liked doing it...

This thread lacks pictures.



Not that I dislike them, it's just a bit silly.
Call me a dead horse beater, but I remember from school that a lexical field is comprised of more than one word. The leitmotiv feels a tad heavy-handed.
There's their unusually high quality/price ratio of course... With all the fuss about GK, I wonder how it was when they released the SW 'dex.

Skylifter wrote:2: The models. They, too, were quite vikingy in 2nd to 4th ed, but the new ones are just too exaggerated. The hairdos are completely silly

Yep.
I remember I found the PA Rune Priest to be one of the most badass GW models when they released it. Beard, braids, fierce look and stance : check, check, double check. It went kind of downhill from there to me...

KingDeath wrote:They tend to be horrible Marry Sues ( or the male equivalent )

They call it "Marty Stu"

(Again, this post is tongue-in-cheek. "Hating" an army is silly. Heck, I actually like the Space Wolves, but it's an amusing occasion to point out what I find silly with them.)

Vaktathi wrote: It's entirely possible to have created that identity for themselves and still feel that way, but they seemed to enjoy it, at least to some extent, and didn't take much convincing to destroy the Legion and Prospero when their original orders had simply been to retrieve Magnus and bring him to Terra.

Either way, the way they described it really came of as annoyingly arrogant in Prospero Burns.

I dunno, man.
I mean, even if it did seem like they were easily duped, that may well be the fault of the writer rather than the in-fluff characters.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Abnett's stuff, but it's entirely possible he may have oversimplified the manipulation Horus got up to, in order to get the story to the fightin' quicker.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:it's entirely possible he may have oversimplified the manipulation Horus got up to, in order to get the story to the fightin' quicker.

Not to mention the difficulty to write supremely intelligent characters when the author himself is a normal human being.

-Loki- wrote:My main gripe is simply JOTWW. It shouldn't exist.

This isn't coming from me as a Tyranid player, because I don't know any Space Wolves players and I've never had it used against me. Simply, it's a powerful psychic power that avoids almost every hoop you jump through to remove a model from the table.

Roll to hit? Nah. Roll to wound? Nah. Enemy gets an armour save? Nah. Enemy gets an invulnerable save? Nah. Enemy gets a Feel No Pain save? Nah. Enemy gets a cover save? Nah. Enemy has multiple wounds? Doesn't matter. Enemy has Eternal Warrior? Doesn't matter. Model was in a squad, therefore not selectable by the SW player as a target? Doesn't matter.

Psychic test, enemy takes Initiative tests, models under the line (only those under the line, unlike every other shooting ability) that failed removed from the table. It's simply poor game design.

Its NOT Poor game design, GK,Chaos, Necrons, BA, ORKS,

ALL have the same exact thing under the same conditions.

Psychic test or shooting, You fail a test and your done. The ONLY difference with SW is that it can be done from a distance instead of up close...OH..wait..Necrons can do it from a distance too and its even easier for them too because they have TWO models in their list that can do it. With Necrons they can have up to 5 models on the table that can wipe stuff off the table.

Don't go with the whole snipping stuff off the table defense because its not valid. The others can do it too! They can specifically walk up to a certain model and take it off the table.

Also if that is not as bad.

Ever wonder what happens when a squad assaults your tank and wrecks it?

Ever wonder what happens if all their models are pressed against your hatches where you deploy and you loose the ability to deploy?

Your ten man squad of Terminators and your two 200 point HQ's go poof!

I seen it happen and from simple assaulting a tank with no special rules. If anything needs to change its not SW its the basic rules.

Gorskar.da.Lost wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: It's entirely possible to have created that identity for themselves and still feel that way, but they seemed to enjoy it, at least to some extent, and didn't take much convincing to destroy the Legion and Prospero when their original orders had simply been to retrieve Magnus and bring him to Terra.

Either way, the way they described it really came of as annoyingly arrogant in Prospero Burns.

I dunno, man.
I mean, even if it did seem like they were easily duped, that may well be the fault of the writer rather than the in-fluff characters.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Abnett's stuff, but it's entirely possible he may have oversimplified the manipulation Horus got up to, in order to get the story to the fightin' quicker.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I don't think it was just a case of Horus saying to Russ the Emperor now wants you to wipe out the TS. There would have been a much bigger deception going on. After all Horus managed to play the big deception without anyone else noticing apart from Magnus. Again I think Chaos manipulated Magnus again just so he would breach the Palace Psychic seals and at this point Magnus probably lost credibility with his info to the Emperor and if anything the Emperor probably saw him as the threat and not Horus as he probably understood Chaos & the Warp had a hold on Magnus.

Vasarto wrote:

-Loki- wrote:My main gripe is simply JOTWW. It shouldn't exist.

This isn't coming from me as a Tyranid player, because I don't know any Space Wolves players and I've never had it used against me. Simply, it's a powerful psychic power that avoids almost every hoop you jump through to remove a model from the table.

Roll to hit? Nah. Roll to wound? Nah. Enemy gets an armour save? Nah. Enemy gets an invulnerable save? Nah. Enemy gets a Feel No Pain save? Nah. Enemy gets a cover save? Nah. Enemy has multiple wounds? Doesn't matter. Enemy has Eternal Warrior? Doesn't matter. Model was in a squad, therefore not selectable by the SW player as a target? Doesn't matter.

Psychic test, enemy takes Initiative tests, models under the line (only those under the line, unlike every other shooting ability) that failed removed from the table. It's simply poor game design.

Its NOT Poor game design, GK,Chaos, Necrons, BA, ORKS,

ALL have the same exact thing under the same conditions.

GKs have it in Template form. Chaos have it requiring the psyker to be within 6" of the target at the start of the Chaos turn, Necrons is 12" range and random for the Beamer, Time's Arrow requires B2B, BA doesn't remove models, Orks is from a Special Character.

The minimum cost for these is:
GKs - 155pts
Chaos - 130pts
Necrons: Beamer - 50pts, Arrow - 235pts
Orks - 145pts

JotWW requires 100pts, is longer ranged than all of these, can snipe models from this distance (only Zogwort's Curse is comparable, being able to snipe at 18" but taking up a HQ slot that could otherwise be filled with a better choice), and does not require LoS to any models apart from the first hit.

The effects you listed as being the same have drawbacks that are cost, range, use of a slot that would otherwise be more useful if filled differently, random chance, or a mix.

I also don't get why Necrons are special for having two models capable of it, every army listed bar the Orks can have two models capable to it, and Space Wolves can have four, something which you neglected to mention.

The Ork one only works on SC's, Requires a psychic test, and has a very short range. It also doesn't kill the target, and requires you to take an otherwise rather useless HQ choice.

(and they can't take FOUR of the fethers, all doing this at the same time, to a line of models )

Orks also have the SAG, but that only has a 1/36 chance of vaporing it's target (minus rolling for scatter), an equal chance of killing itself and everything around it, and a far greater chance of hurting itself (getting thrown into melee, shooting your own army).

Wow... JOTWW hate rollin in. Lets list other things that just shouldn't exist or are too cheap.

Psybolt ammo - S8 auto cannons for 5 points. Yes please.
Comander Dante - Your star god just caught a cold. - w, -ld, -ws. just because Dante touched the table top.
Mind Shackle Scarabs. 50% chance of making your 200+ point model attack his own squad. Yes please.
Surfer lord - HTH S7 power weapon attacks in the movement phase. No armor, no cover, can't fight back on a roll of 6 can pick his target, Screw you P-fist or whatever.
Mephiston - Phenomenal monstrous creature stats - Ittity bitty base
Melta Vets - Waaay to much firepower for points.
Chimmera - Special rules up the wazoo that remove all disadvantages from being in a vehicle for Leader type characters.
Lash of submission- yes, yes you did move, smile for the boom.

The list goes on and on and on. Jotww imo is quite tame compared to other cheese that can be brought onto the table.

Just because those exist doesn't mean that JOTWW isn't any less of a problem

I don't mind the SW... There codex has some OP Units in the like all SM codexes do these days, but overall they are fine....

Fine that is as a SM chapter which at the end of the day is about as interesting and amusing as finding gum in your hair.

Jayden63 wrote:Wow... JOTWW hate rollin in. Lets list other things that just shouldn't exist or are too cheap.

Psybolt ammo - S8 auto cannons for 5 points. Yes please. I doubt you'll find many people who disagree that psybolt ammo is undercosted on dreadnoughts
Comander Dante - Your star god just caught a cold. - w, -ld, -ws. just because Dante touched the table top. Again, a somewhat unnecessarily silly rule
Mind Shackle Scarabs. 50% chance of making your 200+ point model attack his own squad. Yes please. Average on 3D6 is only 10.5, so it's not amazingly overpowered (a lot of people still successfully cast powers whilst under the effects of Runes of Warding, for example, but a lot of people don't try because they could Perils more easily), but 2D6 would've sufficed.
Surfer lord - HTH S7 power weapon attacks in the movement phase. No armor, no cover, can't fight back on a roll of 6 can pick his target, Screw you P-fist or whatever. Only 3 attacks, hitting mostly on 4s, and only being able to pick 1.6th of the time, is not really overpowered for a model that costs 180pts
Mephiston - Phenomenal monstrous creature stats - Ittity bitty base And no invulnerable save.
Melta Vets - Waaay to much firepower for points. 3 BS4 Meltaguns for 155pts is too much firepower? It can get annoying if they're spammed, but that's just Mech Guard for you.
Chimmera - Special rules up the wazoo that remove all disadvantages from being in a vehicle for Leader type characters. This is a joke, right?
Lash of submission- yes, yes you did move, smile for the boom. Not nearly as good as it used to be, and one of the only saving graces of a book that's sub-par in almost every way.

The list goes on and on and on. Jotww imo is quite tame compared to other cheese that can be brought onto the table.

Like Luke said, just because some other things exist does not mean that JotWW is fine. Heck, this is a thread solely about SW, so I hope you're not surprised that you're finding mainly SW-related peeves here, and nobody whining about psybolt ammo.

SW are pretty cool space marines they look horrible but everything else about them is cool.
Now then the reason i like them is mostly because of the BotF book(really well done shows the SWs better than other books)

Because all SW lists are practically the same. JOTWW is not fun to play against, especially spammed. The internal balance of the book is so good a cavema...Viking could do it.

Just boring to see Grey Hunters + Missle Launchers + JOTWW everywhere. There are a lot of viable units besides, but the weakminded like to use the easy button rather than use other units.

They also now have a complete line of models. Not that Im excited about Wolves. I guess its cool if its encourages a build besides the above...lowers the cost of the resin 2nd hand market.

That seems to be the crux of the hate. But lets face it SW ALWAYS get cool competative stuff, really burns other SM chapter players and makes them feel neglected=jelous.

Task and Purpose wrote:Because all SW lists are practically the same.

No their not.

I am planning to play a 40-60mm Shuffle Army, with Bjorn, Canis, a ton of wolves and mucho TWC.

You could also, you know, go for a Loganwing? Or how about a Wolf Scouts outflanking army?

The variety is there. But because MEHTAL BAWKSES are the fad, people only know SW as the guys with the Long Fangs and Grey Hunters in Las/Plas Razorbacks.

Chowderhead wrote:

Task and Purpose wrote:Because all SW lists are practically the same.

No their not.

I am planning to play a 40-60mm Shuffle Army, with Bjorn, Canis, a ton of wolves and mucho TWC.

You could also, you know, go for a Loganwing? Or how about a Wolf Scouts outflanking army?

The variety is there. But because MEHTAL BAWKSES are the fad, people only know SW as the guys with the Long Fangs and Grey Hunters in Las/Plas Razorbacks.

I agree, you get a cookie. Come to HI and we can play, I said there are a lot of very viable builds...I just never see them.

Second to all the TS boo hooing, Magnus was a lazy punk. He knew the rules. He could have had his entire legion board its ships and make way to Terra immediately. Horus would have had to check himself and having another 2 Primarchs at Terra. The Wolves and TS would S***Stomp the remains of the SOH.

Russ did what he did because he could do it and he was told to do it. He was made for the job that The Warmaster gave him. He was in charge while the Big-E was away and Russ listened. Yea he was looking for an excuse but Magnus was a douche anyways. He was gonna turn to Chaos anyways. No one who ever defends the TS ever wants to say that "Hey remember when Magnus used chaos to heal his marines?" Yea he didn't really know it was Chaos but why didn't he just ask Pops for help? "Hey Magnus don't use your powers anymore." "DAD DAD DAD HORUS is...ooooooooo... I did what you didn't tell me to do and messed up everything. you were doing." Come on now. He was played like a fiddle by Tzeentch.

Task and Purpose wrote:I agree, you get a cookie. Come to HI and we can play, I said there are a lot of very viable builds...I just never see them.

Second to all the TS boo hooing, Magnus was a lazy punk. He knew the rules. He could have had his entire legion board its ships and make way to Terra immediately. Horus would have had to check himself and having another 2 Primarchs at Terra. The Wolves and TS would S***Stomp the remains of the SOH.

Magnus should have made his way to Terra...would that be going through the warp? You know, during the time Chaos was screwing with it and everyone was having trouble getting where they were going? What a wonderful idea...Magnus knew the warp was acting up, as did most other Primarchs and commanders. Traveling would have taken too long (if he even got there). It had nothing to do with laziness. He was doing what he THOUGHT was right, even though he ended up making a poor choice by doing it. However, the Emperor should have listened anyway. Maybe Magnus should have flat out offered his life up to the Emperor then and there, but tell the Emp that his sacrifice was worth it, if it enabled the Imperium to stop Horus. Who knows-that's how I'd do it, but I digress. Magnus made a mistake, but it was a tough call-and your example, unfortunately, does not fit with current events transpiring. Doesn't change Russ's and his mongrels' actions as d-baggery.

SwiftLord14 wrote:Russ did what he did because he could do it and he was told to do it. He was made for the job that The Warmaster gave him. He was in charge while the Big-E was away and Russ listened. Yea he was looking for an excuse but Magnus was a douche anyways. He was gonna turn to Chaos anyways. No one who ever defends the TS ever wants to say that "Hey remember when Magnus used chaos to heal his marines?" Yea he didn't really know it was Chaos but why didn't he just ask Pops for help? "Hey Magnus don't use your powers anymore." "DAD DAD DAD HORUS is...ooooooooo... I did what you didn't tell me to do and messed up everything. you were doing." Come on now. He was played like a fiddle by Tzeentch.

The TS were indeed manipulated by Chaos, but the Space Wolves just as much. If they hadn't been tricked into intervening, the TS might've realized what they were doing was wrong and saved themselves.

Magnus DID know he was doing something wrong. That's why he didn't even try to stop the wolves from getting on his planet.

SwiftLord14 wrote:Magnus DID know he was doing something wrong. That's why he didn't even try to stop the wolves from getting on his planet.

Read "A Thousand Sons." When he saw the Space Wolves executing everyone and burning the Libraries (as Horus had manipulated them into doing) he changed his mind and saved his Legion.

I've read it. I said he didn't stop them from getting on the planet. I didn't say he didn't defend it when they get on it.

You know what is REALLY going to get stupid powerful now?

Notice how Thunderwolves just got released allowing all players to be able to actually make them without spending cash on fantasy or alt models and riding legs for them now?

I predict them getting a massive boost now that SW players get to play with Fast attack options that are actualy....GOOD!

I had fun painting some of the models for someone. I hate the look of the hair, like they just touched a light socket. I don't hate the SW but sometimes I wish GW would take a break from SM anything. I'd like to see Eldar get revamped, Tau for sure. That would great. I REALLY hope 6th edition has a box set that has NO SMs. Sigh.

XCom wrote:I had fun painting some of the models for someone. I hate the look of the hair, like they just touched a light socket. I don't hate the SW but sometimes I wish GW would take a break from SM anything. I'd like to see Eldar get revamped, Tau for sure. That would great. I REALLY hope 6th edition has a box set that has NO SMs. Sigh.

They do need to do something else. Let the Tau have their glory. I can't imagine that they are gonna lose anything by doing that. Hell let all the other races that need it be touched on.


But a lot of their hairstyles are kinda goofy.

XCom wrote: I REALLY hope 6th edition has a box set that has NO SMs. Sigh.

Never happen, lol. Space Marines are the flagship product of 40K. They are featured in more products because they sell more models. GW knows that no matter how an edition is received, any boxed set with Spess Mahreens in it will sell.

timetowaste85 wrote: However, the Emperor should have listened anyway.

Why should the Emperor have listened to Magnus over a seemingly more trustworthy son?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote: However, the Emperor should have listened anyway.

Why should the Emperor have listened to Magnus over a seemingly more trustworthy son?

Especially when said son was using something the Emperor had specifically forbidden, unlike (seemingly) the more trustworthy son?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote: However, the Emperor should have listened anyway.

Why should the Emperor have listened to Magnus over a seemingly more trustworthy son?

The emperor pretty much abolished sorcery and claimed anyone practicing it would forfeit their life. If Magnus was willing to risk his life doing something he knew could get him killed, he must have done it for good reason-not for gaks and giggles.

timetowaste85 wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

timetowaste85 wrote: However, the Emperor should have listened anyway.

Why should the Emperor have listened to Magnus over a seemingly more trustworthy son?

The emperor pretty much abolished sorcery and claimed anyone practicing it would forfeit their life. If Magnus was willing to risk his life doing something he knew could get him killed, he must have done it for good reason-not for gaks and giggles.

Despite the fact that the Big E knew that Magnus had all but withdrawn from the Crusade in shock at the aforementioned judgement?
It was pretty clear that Magnus was upset about the ruling and this might have been his way of showing off that he could control psychic powers - which it turns out he couldn't.

It is hinted that The Big E knew that Magnus was right in the first place. (Plus he finds out definitively afterwards anyways.)
They point is that he doesn't care what Magnus was going to tell him. He cares that Magnus screwed the pooch pretty hardcore and not only screwed the pooch but screwed it in a thoroughly proscribed manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There was another thread where someone said something like...

Imagine that your dad decided that driving cars was a really bad idea. He had some bad experiences and he told everyone 'Okay, no more driving cars. If I catch any of my kids driving their cars, they are dead to me. Literally.'

Now imagine you found out something REAL important to tell your dad. REALLLY IMPORTANT, like he's going to die and be betrayed by his favorite son. But he's like 20 miles away and your cell phone doesn't work. So you jump in a car, go careening drunkenly down the street killing tons of people and crash your car through your dad's living room destroying everything that he has worked years on.

The warning you're about to give him might be cold comfort. Especially since he probably already knew what you were going to tell him. To make it even worse, your joy ride may have not only not helped the good guys, but actually ended up putting them in a very vulnerable situation against that favorite son and his shenanigans as the thing he was working on could have been instrumental in defeating the traitors.

I.e. Magnus done f'd up hardcore. Sure the SW and the other legions all drove when their dad wasn't looking, but they didn't go on drunken driving killing sprees that end up massively damaging everything their dad was working to build.

It's a matter of degree. Keeping librarians in defiance of Nikea is a big step away from destroying the E's webway portal, killing thousands to hundreds of thousands of psykers on earth, using actual sorcery and teaming up with the big T.

Isn't anyone gonna touch on how stupidly powerful the SW rune priests are? with their ability that allows a line of units to be swallowed by the earth... or am I interpreting this ability wrongly?

bibblles wrote:Isn't anyone gonna touch on how stupidly powerful the SW rune priests are? with their ability that allows a line of units to be swallowed by the earth... or am I interpreting this ability wrongly?

Anyone going to bother to read the thread? Try that last page...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/434437.page#3997714

pretre wrote:It is hinted that The Big E knew that Magnus was right in the first place. (Plus he finds out definitively afterwards anyways.)
They point is that he doesn't care what Magnus was going to tell him. He cares that Magnus screwed the pooch pretty hardcore and not only screwed the pooch but screwed it in a thoroughly proscribed manner.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There was another thread where someone said something like...

Imagine that your dad decided that driving cars was a really bad idea. He had some bad experiences and he told everyone 'Okay, no more driving cars. If I catch any of my kids driving their cars, they are dead to me. Literally.'

Now imagine you found out something REAL important to tell your dad. REALLLY IMPORTANT, like he's going to die and be betrayed by his favorite son. But he's like 20 miles away and your cell phone doesn't work. So you jump in a car, go careening drunkenly down the street killing tons of people and crash your car through your dad's living room destroying everything that he has worked years on.

The warning you're about to give him might be cold comfort. Especially since he probably already knew what you were going to tell him. To make it even worse, your joy ride may have not only not helped the good guys, but actually ended up putting them in a very vulnerable situation against that favorite son and his shenanigans as the thing he was working on could have been instrumental in defeating the traitors.

I.e. Magnus done f'd up hardcore. Sure the SW and the other legions all drove when their dad wasn't looking, but they didn't go on drunken driving killing sprees that end up massively damaging everything their dad was working to build.

It's a matter of degree. Keeping librarians in defiance of Nikea is a big step away from destroying the E's webway portal, killing thousands to hundreds of thousands of psykers on earth, using actual sorcery and teaming up with the big T.

The thing that complicates this all here however is that the Big E needed Magnus brought back to power the Golden Throne while he went off and did everything.

On top of that, most 40k fluff makes it rather clear that the Big E was blindsided by Horus's betrayal and that he pretty much didn't *really* listen to Magnus's warning.

So yeah, you crash the car through the window, then Dad doesn't actually listen to the warning about Favorite Son, but sends PunkSon to bring you back and hold the fort while he fixes everything, but instead PunkSon decides to just try to kill you and burn all your stuff and make sure you can't have nice things, forcing you to flee for your life and join forces with Favorite Son because you've got nowhere else to turn to and you don't want to die, while Favorite Son openly turns on Dad who isn't paying attention to what's happening and PunkSon has gone haywire trying to kill you because he thinks he's been given some sort of unofficial "sanctioner" mantle. Then because Dad doesn't have you to hold things down, everything ends up going to pot even moreso than it would have.

But Sanctioner isn't unofficial. It has been referred to in ATS, PB, TOD, AoD and the Word Bearer's book. By radically different points of view. Everyone knows what the wolves are for. I imagine, even the Emperor.

pretre wrote:But Sanctioner isn't unofficial. It has been referred to in ATS, PB, TOD, AoD and the Word Bearer's book. By radically different points of view. Everyone knows what the wolves are for. I imagine, even the Emperor.

Don't know about the Word Bearers book, but everywhere else it seemed like it was never an official thing, merely something that was implied or intimated, usually by the SW's themselves, and wasn't the most common of knowledge.

Before the newer HH books, it always seemed as though the Custodes (being even more powerful than Space Marines and still numbering in "weak" Legion strength) filled that role.

Either way, Magnus was supposed to be brought back to enable the Big E to take a forefront role in things back on earth instead of having to maintain the integrity of the imperial webway from the golden throne, the Big E didn't get/ignored the message from magnus, and the attack by the SW's drove the TS's into the arms of Tzeentch and to the side of Horus.

The other books it was mentioned in (Outcast Dead, Age of Darkness and Word Bearers Book) didn't even have SW.

It is also shown that Magnus was already there for Tzeentch. How do you think he saved his legion and what do you think the little familiars they had were?

I'm not saying that the wolves did the best thing, but when they were sent, I think it was clear what might happen based on their history.

How do you think he saved his legion and what do you think the little familiars they had were?

You mean the ones the Imperium itself uses? The dead, floating, psyker babies that were turned into unnatural abominations? Cherubim I think they were called.

I like the Space Wolves right up until the current codex. Like everything now, it's a wonderfully printed ream of Codex Creeping, over-powered, under-costed army information that gives me a ton of abilities and keywords to remember that sound like they are from Magic the Gathering.

I think the Space Wolves circa 2003 (the Eye of Terror summer campaign) were right perfectly spot-on for enjoyable playing. They were a pretty cool sub-codex that used the original Space Marines 'dex for it's basis, and you could also use the Eye of Terror codex to play a very interesting variant army which played very different to any other SM army but with very few rules additions to make it that way.

All their wargear that they shared with other chapter codex's and the base SM 'dex were priced exactly the same, or at least very, very close. All that changed to make them unique were the addition of things like True Grit, and some wargear that was wolf-themed (alot of which was just SM gear under a new name). Most of the units in the codex were different due to their stats, not a bunch of abilities.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

How do you think he saved his legion and what do you think the little familiars they had were?

You mean the ones the Imperium itself uses? The dead, floating, psyker babies that were turned into unnatural abominations? Cherubim I think they were called.

No. In ATS, they all have little warp spirits that hang out with them. Tutelaries, iirc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AegisGrimm wrote:All their wargear that they shared with other chapter codex's and the base SM 'dex were priced exactly the same, or at least very, very close. All that changed to make them unique were the addition of things like True Grit, and some wargear that was wolf-themed (alot of which was just SM gear under a new name). Most of the units in the codex were different due to their stats, not a bunch of abilities.

And the addition of unique units (Only SM chapter with a LR) and disgusting numbers of hidden power fists (Blood Claws). Space Wolves in their previous incarnation were very powerful in 3rd edition.

I like the Wolves, but I can't play them because of the cringe worthy names. The fact that they have a few ridiculously cheap upgrades and JOTWW kind of annoys me, as does their stance on psykers and Rune Priests, but that's about it. I do dislike their Heresy era incarnation though for their hypocrisy and savagery.

They're ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons in the fluff, and yet one more reminder that it never makes sense to play Codex: Space Marines on the tabletop. Hate? No, I just think watching a 500 point Wolfstar run off the table when it gets Weaken Resolved is the funniest thing ever.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:They're ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons in the fluff,

They portray themselves as ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons as a strategy. It is clear that that's not what they actually are when you read PB. That's one of the whole points of the book.

Personally I dont find any of the SW fluff that disagreeable, hell a lot of it I find funny. To be honest they represent space marines with at least some semblance of character. As to the whole picking fights with the inquisition/administration lets face it the imperium wiped out/sterilised/enslaved a defending army after they won to keep the war quiet. And as for the whole convert to emperor worship or die for the tribes on Fenris, how would you like it if someone started polluting your recruit selection? for no apparent reason.

To be fair the splitting of the legions to chapters (Which space wolves apparently never did) was supposed to limit the power one military commander could have on overall imperial military strength. So how come the ultrasmurfs explain ruling a whole empire including naval assets, entire imperial guard battallions complete with tank companies and the resources to arm, equip and move them on a galactic scale. Honestly how much power does marenus calgar have over a significant part of the imperial military as a whole?

pretre wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:They're ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons in the fluff,

They portray themselves as ignorant hypocritical violence hungry morons as a strategy. It is clear that that's not what they actually are when you read PB. That's one of the whole points of the book.

This never came about until PB, and only made them look more arrogant/hipsterish. It came off as a "oh we're so clever..." or "We're Space Marines...but Better!" type deal again. Even then, it was pretty much "we're going to look brutish and savage so they underestimate us..then we beat them by being...more brutal".

pretre wrote:
It is also shown that Magnus was already there for Tzeentch. How do you think he saved his legion and what do you think the little familiars they had were?

Familiars aren't exclusive to Tzeentch, many are human psykers or other various weird creatures that the Imperium has in abundance.

pretre wrote:
No. In ATS, they all have little warp spirits that hang out with them. Tutelaries, iirc.

IIRC they aren't described as anything daemonic. It's been a while since I've read the book, but from what I remember they weren't anything too terrible, they certainly don't make any connection to Tzeentch or the ruinous powers in general in the book from what I remember.

I'm not saying that the wolves did the best thing, but when they were sent, I think it was clear what might happen based on their history.

Which shows either a drastic lack of understanding of the relationships between the Legions on the Emperor's part, Russ's inability to do what he's told resulting in catastrophe, or both sadly.

And the addition of unique units (Only SM chapter with a LR) and disgusting numbers of hidden power fists (Blood Claws). Space Wolves in their previous incarnation were very powerful in 3rd edition.

For a bit of 3rd ed, nothing like what they are now. When people ask about 3E power armies, SW's usually aren't what people think of. Eldar, CSM's, Necrons, etc. That said, the Leman Russ tanks was always an odd and hamfisted inclusion that never quite fit.

Pretty sure Tutelaries are actually Daemons considering they effectively take control over the Astartes that 'let' them. FWIW they're never stated as being familiars either.
Furthermore, Russ did as was ordered by both his superiors: his overall Boss - who had him apparently 'remove' Legions previously and had Russ present at Nikaea in-case Magnus got angry - and his 'other' Boss, Horus, who told him to take out the Thousand Sons altogether. Russ tried to give Magnus a chance to surrender.

Adopting the perspective of Russ, I can fully understand his actions. The Emperor didn't lend him the Sisters of Silence or Custodes to help put on the handcuffs in all likelihood.


And on this note, I'm again ducking out as personally I dislike debates where neither side will change their opinion, which is what seems to be happening here IMHO.

And the addition of unique units (Only SM chapter with a LR) and disgusting numbers of hidden power fists (Blood Claws). Space Wolves in their previous incarnation were very powerful in 3rd edition.

For a bit of 3rd ed, nothing like what they are now. When people ask about 3E power armies, SW's usually aren't what people think of. Eldar, CSM's, Necrons, etc. That said, the Leman Russ tanks was always an odd and hamfisted inclusion that never quite fit.

The Leman Russ inclusion never made a lick of sense to me other than it's name. And if two "hidden" powerfists per "Troops" squad is what makes an army too powerful, I would hate to classify these latest three or four armies of 5th ed. Plus as far as I know the 4th ed assault rules killed "hidden" powerfists, didn't they?

Of course maybe three or four powerfists in an army never seemed like a big deal to me because when my bud and I play 40K (we use 4th ed rules still), I play the 13th company list from The Eye of Terror codex, which while their troops types are awesome in CC, and they get Wolfen squads as Elites, they are limited by:

-Troops with access to plasma guns had to pay twice the SM price for each one (12pts)
-Only Wolf Lord, Rune priest and Wolf Priest for HQ choices
-Only three choices in the entire codex have non-powerfist anti-tank capabilities, and for two of those it's only meltaguns.
-No Dreads
-No vehicles of any kind, including transports
-Only Bikes and Wolf packs as choices for for FA
-Their best close combat unit is an Elites choice
-Only Long Fangs with normal SM-priced weapons for HS, and they are the only heavy weapons in the army


The current SW codex is easily far and above more powerful in this edition than the old one in 3rd/4th. Plus all the goofy fluff changes happened during this edition, so I never had to think about them. Used to be that the Thousand Sons were misunderstood, even though they went against the express ruling of the Emperor, and that the Space Wolves were honorable Space Barbarians that killed them out of fear of their witchcraft. Originally the whole situation was everyone's fault, even the Emperor.

In 3rd, those hidden PF were a big deal. Especially since you could consolidate into combat and charge out of moving rhinos. And that was the book it was made for.

The whole situation is still everyone's fault. Emperor knew who he was sending. Horus changed the order. Valdor and Russ didn't question it. Magnus was a tool and sulked while they dropped in.

Vasarto wrote:You know what is REALLY going to get stupid powerful now?

Notice how Thunderwolves just got released allowing all players to be able to actually make them without spending cash on fantasy or alt models and riding legs for them now?

I predict them getting a massive boost now that SW players get to play with Fast attack options that are actualy....GOOD!

Are you implying that Thunderwolf Cavalry is in some way not already arguably the best counter-charge unit in 40k?

azazel the cat wrote:

Vasarto wrote:You know what is REALLY going to get stupid powerful now?

Notice how Thunderwolves just got released allowing all players to be able to actually make them without spending cash on fantasy or alt models and riding legs for them now?

I predict them getting a massive boost now that SW players get to play with Fast attack options that are actualy....GOOD!

Are you implying that Thunderwolf Cavalry is in some way not already arguably the best counter-charge unit in 40k?

No, he's saying that now people have access to official TWC models, they're going to become more commonplace in lists.

Just Dave wrote:
Adopting the perspective of Russ, I can fully understand his actions. The Emperor didn't lend him the Sisters of Silence or Custodes to help put on the handcuffs in all likelihood.

one never knows, though it certainly made sense either way just in case the TSons ended up resisting to send forces that would assist in fighting a psychically capable Space Marine Legion, though the original orders (from multiple sources) do state that Magnus was always intended to be brought back intact and that the TSons legion wasn't intended to be destroyed when Russ was initially dispatched, and that it didn't take much to convince Russ otherwise, despite the vital need for Magnus on Terra.

pretre wrote:In 3rd, those hidden PF were a big deal. Especially since you could consolidate into combat and charge out of moving rhinos. And that was the book it was made for.

I'm not saying they weren't nice, but next to ranger disruption tables, starcannon skimmerspam, 3.5 Chaos Space Marines, Blood Angel rhino charges, etc, it wasn't really in the same league.

The whole situation is still everyone's fault. Emperor knew who he was sending. Horus changed the order. Valdor and Russ didn't question it. Magnus was a tool and sulked while they dropped in.

Yeah, that last part about Magnus just sulking and taking it made him look like a total weenie sadly, it didn't exactly present him in the greatest of lights.

i hate them simply because theyre baby blue wolf marines riding giant wolves.

Sadly nothing ever typed on the internets is going to change one persons mind on why they should or should not hate something.

I love the SW because to me, they still are space vikings. They love to get stuck in, they care about the small guy, and they have the guts to go against the administration when called for.

Have I read the SW codex? Yup, but I have a very selective memory. I only remember the fluff bits that I find amusing or fit my preconceived notions about the army. I immediately dump anything contradicting to what I want my wolves to be because they are my army and I want to have fun pushing them across the table making pew pew noises.

Have I read any of the novels? Nope, because I'm just not a reader and I know that many people can read the same body of work and come away with several different options of what actually happened / motivations / etc. I'm sure that through my rose colored glasses I'll see something heroic where others who see through hate filled lenses something hypocritical.

So all those who hate the SW enjoy your hate. I'll be the first to admit that its fun to rant about something. Nothing get the blood pumping quite like negative energy. And for those of us who love the SW, enjoy your love and don't let others ruin it for you. Your reasons for liking them are just as valid as others for hating on them. In the end, its a fictional universe, full of fictional people, represented physically by poorly play tested rules designed by an inconsistent design team.

Vaktathi wrote:

pretre wrote:In 3rd, those hidden PF were a big deal. Especially since you could consolidate into combat and charge out of moving rhinos. And that was the book it was made for.

I'm not saying they weren't nice, but next to ranger disruption tables, starcannon skimmerspam, 3.5 Chaos Space Marines, Blood Angel rhino charges, etc, it wasn't really in the same league.

I don't remember the ranger disruption tables, but I definitely remember the rest. Ahh, good times...

Jayden63 wrote:Sadly nothing ever typed on the internets is going to change one persons mind on why they should or should not hate something.

I love the SW because to me, they still are space vikings. They love to get stuck in, they care about the small guy, and they have the guts to go against the administration when called for.

Have I read the SW codex? Yup, but I have a very selective memory. I only remember the fluff bits that I find amusing or fit my preconceived notions about the army. I immediately dump anything contradicting to what I want my wolves to be because they are my army and I want to have fun pushing them across the table making pew pew noises.

Have I read any of the novels? Nope, because I'm just not a reader and I know that many people can read the same body of work and come away with several different options of what actually happened / motivations / etc. I'm sure that through my rose colored glasses I'll see something heroic where others who see through hate filled lenses something hypocritical.

So all those who hate the SW enjoy your hate. I'll be the first to admit that its fun to rant about something. Nothing get the blood pumping quite like negative energy. And for those of us who love the SW, enjoy your love and don't let others ruin it for you. Your reasons for liking them are just as valid as others for hating on them. In the end, its a fictional universe, full of fictional people, represented physically by poorly play tested rules designed by an inconsistent design team.

You had me at space vikings.

Some huge holes in many of the haters reasons for hating being posted up here.

To address the whole, "crazy viking barbarians who hate sorcery bit" that has been repeated a couple of time. You do know that it was multiple Primarchs besides Russ that originally did not agree with the Librarian Experiment? Dorn, Corax, and Mortarion are also considered "crazy <insert name> who hate sorcery" now? It was also multiple Primarchs that stood against Magnus at the Council of Nikea, even one of his previous supporters of the Librarian Experiment (Sangiunous) being part of the welcoming and escort charade with Fulgrim when Magnus arrives at Nikea.

The truth of the matter is that before Magnus ever made his deal that damned his Legion, the Thousand Sons were already suspect in their use of the warp due to the the nature of their powers and suffering of the flesh change. Combined with the canon of Warhammer 40k regarding the Old Night and how mankind fell prior to the arrival of the Emperor it is hardly surprising that there be people (Primarchs) wary of what Magnus was trying to accomplish not only with his Librarian Experiment but also with his vision for humanity (shown with the Legion specifically picking latent psykers in remembrancers and cultivating their power).

Secondly, I keep hearing that there are so many sources (Vaktathi) that say Russ was told to "arrest" Magnus and that it was Russ' stupidity/zeal combined with Horus' lies that forced the events at Prospero. However, two Index Astartes articles (Thousand Sons and Space Wolves) both say that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace and screwed everything up. Both articles then detail that the Emperor turned to Russ and gave him his orders directly; neither saying anything about "arresting" or bringing Magnus back to Terra. We do not what the Emperor said as part of his decree at the Council of Nikea as to what punishment would be for those that dared to continue with the sorcery bit. Moreso, if you go down the hypothetical line that Horus changed the order to Russ, how do you then have the active inclusion of the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in the sanction. They are directly commanded by the Emperor, not by Horus. You would have to believe that two contingents that are directly responsible to the Emperor forgoing their own orders to assist Russ in bringing Magnus to Terra were also "fooled" by Horus. In addition, we have absolutely ZERO canon, new or old, that Russ faced any punishment or censure for his actions at Prospero.

Lastly, the constant branding of the SW as hypocrites continues to be debunked time and time again. No matter what some try to claim, a rune priest is NOT a librarian. The edict passed at Nikea specifically and intentionally targeted that which had been "tainted" by the teachings of Magnus. It specifically targetted the librarians, the Librarius, and the Librarium. Again all things specifically "tainted" by Magnus' teachings. At no time whatsoever were the SW or their rune priests ever tainted by the teachings of Magnus. In fact, the attitude and methods of the rune priests practically mirror exactly what the Emperor dictates during his speech before passing the edict; the quest for power through knowledge without first wisdom is bad, mmmkay? This is reflected in the SW codex, the Index Astartes article on Librarians (where it specifically tells you they are different), and when Wyrdmake is first debating psychic powers with Ahiriman in the beginning of the Thousand Sons. In addition, we have absolute ZERO canon, new or old, that the SW faced any punishment or sanction for the actions of their rune priests. There is not even any Primarchs that are said to have stood against the rune priests of the SW for their actions, unlike Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

The fact is that what happened on Prospero and to the Thousand Sons was exactly what was forewarned by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea. There was no exception given in that decree for Magnus being taken back to Terra. Whether you want to try and deflect Russ' actions with supposed orders from Horus, you also have sources citing Russ being given his orders directly from the Emperor to sanction the Thousand Sons.

Basically I liked the Space Wolves with the Ragnar series. They were pretty interesting and cool, even if they were against my fav legion of the Thousand Sons. They were really heroic to me in those stories. It's only the HH series on them that makes me hate them.

-Rune Priests are just like librarians, only with a different name. If not then I'd love some real facts on how it is really different than being a librarian.

-The whole "We pretend to be idiot, brutal, buffoons to make people underestimate us" crap really gets on my nerves. If they're smart, let them be smart, if not then don't pretend like they're anything else. Russ probably was a really smart guy who dumbed it down for his legion, but the other wolves.. ya.. they're beer drinkin, mutated, mohawk, idiots who think they can piss rainbows, and nothings gonna change that. (had a picture I was gonna add but it doesn't work)

-Hypocrite is a hypocrite no matter how you dress it up.

-The fact that they would probably of gone after the Sons for anything, even without the Emperors orders, just shows their bias against them.

Alot of other posters already hit a lot of points I agreed with, so that's all I've got for now.

I recently found a liking in the Space Wolves, even some time after reading the William King fiction, which I love.

Space Wolves are the Hounds of Chaos. An entire company (which back during the Heresy could have been far more it is now) was specifically sent right into the Eye of terror by Russ with the literal mandate of "While we keep things safe, you run down anyone that betrayed us and kill all those that follow them".

Even their feud against the Dark Angels is partially fueled by that, where the DA sit outside the Eye and try to ambush the Fallen when they can and try to keep their huge secret from everyone, while the Wolves just bum-rush anything evil.

I like to think that beyond their viking theme (and the latest Wolf-everything craziness), they are what Space Marines could be without the Codex Astartes- well rounded and bad to piss off, because unlike the other stoic warrior monk SM chapters, they thoroughly enjoy giving everything that looks at them funny a black eye, without going bat-crazy like the Blood Angels or at the other end getting pious and religious like the Black Templars.

I don;t like the new fiction where they are cunningly hiding their intelligence from outsiders. They always had that. It's just that they also love to see bad things and go "Well boys, lets go kill all of it", while not caring if others see them as barbarians.

Brother Ramses wrote:
To address the whole, "crazy viking barbarians who hate sorcery bit" that has been repeated a couple of time. You do know that it was multiple Primarchs besides Russ that originally did not agree with the Librarian Experiment? Dorn, Corax, and Mortarion are also considered "crazy <insert name> who hate sorcery" now? It was also multiple Primarchs that stood against Magnus at the Council of Nikea, even one of his previous supporters of the Librarian Experiment (Sangiunous) being part of the welcoming and escort charade with Fulgrim when Magnus arrives at Nikea.

Yup, other Primarch's also stood against Magnus. They didn't come off however in the same manner as the Space Wolves when doing it though (maybe Mortarion...)

The truth of the matter is that before Magnus ever made his deal that damned his Legion, the Thousand Sons were already suspect in their use of the warp due to the the nature of their powers and suffering of the flesh change. Combined with the canon of Warhammer 40k regarding the Old Night and how mankind fell prior to the arrival of the Emperor it is hardly surprising that there be people (Primarchs) wary of what Magnus was trying to accomplish not only with his Librarian Experiment but also with his vision for humanity (shown with the Legion specifically picking latent psykers in remembrancers and cultivating their power).

Nobody is debating that Magnus's actions made him suspect or the reasons why psykers are distrusted here.

Secondly, I keep hearing that there are so many sources (Vaktathi) that say Russ was told to "arrest" Magnus and that it was Russ' stupidity/zeal combined with Horus' lies that forced the events at Prospero. However, two Index Astartes articles (Thousand Sons and Space Wolves) both say that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace and screwed everything up. Both articles then detail that the Emperor turned to Russ and gave him his orders directly; neither saying anything about "arresting" or bringing Magnus back to Terra.

I don't have the Index Astartes articles in front of me, however keep in mind that each piece is a biased re-creation from that factions perspective. Look at the Iron Warriors and Imperial Fists for example in each's telling of the Iron Cage incident. The IF's describe the result as being a brutally fought but ultimately successful escape and infliction of some harm on the Iron Warriors in foiling their plans, the Iron Warriors describe it as a perfectly executed culling of much of the Imperial Fists that left them crippled for decades for which Perturabo ascended to Daemonhood.

We do however have multiple sources saying that the SW's weren't initially intended to annihilate the Thousand Sons, and the Horus Heresy Collected Visions book describes in detail that Magnus was intended to be brought back to power the Golden Throne in the place of the Emperor (obviously before he had sustained injuries that necessitated the Golden Throne's medical capabilities)

We do not what the Emperor said as part of his decree at the Council of Nikea as to what punishment would be for those that dared to continue with the sorcery bit.

We don't have it word for word, but the general gist of it was that Psyker employment in general aside from Astropaths and Navigators by the Space Marines was proscribed.

Moreso, if you go down the hypothetical line that Horus changed the order to Russ, how do you then have the active inclusion of the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in the sanction.

Lets think about this for a moment.

Even if you're just going to arrest him, detaining a monstrously powerful genetically engineered super-psyker demi-god with a planet full of super soldiers commanded by super soldier psykers loyal to him with millions of "mundane" troops and starships at their disposal, it's probably wise to bring some heavy hitting specialist backup, just in case.

They are directly commanded by the Emperor, not by Horus. You would have to believe that two contingents that are directly responsible to the Emperor forgoing their own orders to assist Russ in bringing Magnus to Terra were also "fooled" by Horus.

That assumes that the non-SW groups were privy to everything going on, telling them all before they get to Prospero that they're about to attack a Space Marine Legion, something unthinkable up to that point, may not have been the best of things to spread around, and remember, at this stage Horus is still the Emperor's favored son.

In addition, we have absolutely ZERO canon, new or old, that Russ faced any punishment or censure for his actions at Prospero.

What would the point have been by then? Especially as by the time it would he would have been censured, the galaxy was already embroiled in full scale war, so even if it had been intended, it likely would have been set aside.

Lastly, the constant branding of the SW as hypocrites continues to be debunked time and time again. No matter what some try to claim, a rune priest is NOT a librarian.

In name only. They mistakenly (or willfuly ignorant) think their powers come from Fenris rather than the warp, and use powers based on the feral traditions of the natives of Fenris, instead of those prescribed by the Codex. Aside from the specifics of the powers and where they think their powers come from, they fulfill the same role in much the same manner.

See earlier comments regarding this. This is why the SW's are seen as hypocritical.

"Oh man, we have this dude who fulfills the same role in much the same way as your not-ok dude, but because he believes his power comes from elsewhere so he's totally ok"

In fact, the attitude and methods of the rune priests practically mirror exactly what the Emperor dictates during his speech before passing the edict; the quest for power through knowledge without first wisdom is bad, mmmkay? This is reflected in the SW codex, the Index Astartes article on Librarians (where it specifically tells you they are different), and when Wyrdmake is first debating psychic powers with Ahiriman in the beginning of the Thousand Sons. In addition, we have absolute ZERO canon, new or old, that the SW faced any punishment or sanction for the actions of their rune priests. There is not even any Primarchs that are said to have stood against the rune priests of the SW for their actions, unlike Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

We have no fluff on the Nikea edict's effect on anyone but the Thousand Sons really. Despite other Legions having Librarian departments and even chapters now having Librarians, only the TSons seem to have been affected in any way by it. Basically it seems to have been forgotten as soon as the TSons were driven into the arms of Horus and then everyone was like "well, lets bring back Librarians" right after that.

Brother Ramses wrote:Some huge holes in many of the haters reasons for hating being posted up here.

To address the whole, "crazy viking barbarians who hate sorcery bit" that has been repeated a couple of time. You do know that it was multiple Primarchs besides Russ that originally did not agree with the Librarian Experiment? Dorn, Corax, and Mortarion are also considered "crazy <insert name> who hate sorcery" now? It was also multiple Primarchs that stood against Magnus at the Council of Nikea, even one of his previous supporters of the Librarian Experiment (Sangiunous) being part of the welcoming and escort charade with Fulgrim when Magnus arrives at Nikea.

Yes, they opposed using the Warp. They did not then claim that their own psychic powers didn't come from the Warp in a show of blatant hypocrisy on their part.

Secondly, I keep hearing that there are so many sources (Vaktathi) that say Russ was told to "arrest" Magnus and that it was Russ' stupidity/zeal combined with Horus' lies that forced the events at Prospero. However, two Index Astartes articles (Thousand Sons and Space Wolves) both say that Russ was present when Magnus breached the palace and screwed everything up. Both articles then detail that the Emperor turned to Russ and gave him his orders directly; neither saying anything about "arresting" or bringing Magnus back to Terra. We do not what the Emperor said as part of his decree at the Council of Nikea as to what punishment would be for those that dared to continue with the sorcery bit. Moreso, if you go down the hypothetical line that Horus changed the order to Russ, how do you then have the active inclusion of the Custodes and Sisters of Silence in the sanction. They are directly commanded by the Emperor, not by Horus. You would have to believe that two contingents that are directly responsible to the Emperor forgoing their own orders to assist Russ in bringing Magnus to Terra were also "fooled" by Horus. In addition, we have absolutely ZERO canon, new or old, that Russ faced any punishment or censure for his actions at Prospero.

The newer fluff, however is that the Emperor sent Russ to take Magnus to Terra and that Horus changed his orders. As for the punishment, it's not too hard to imagine Russ claiming that Magnus started the fight and that the Space Wolves were forced to destroy everything. Besides, the Imperium was erupting with rebellion by that point, the Emperor couldn't really risk giving Russ a reason to turn against him.

Lastly, the constant branding of the SW as hypocrites continues to be debunked time and time again. No matter what some try to claim, a rune priest is NOT a librarian. The edict passed at Nikea specifically and intentionally targeted that which had been "tainted" by the teachings of Magnus. It specifically targetted the librarians, the Librarius, and the Librarium. Again all things specifically "tainted" by Magnus' teachings. At no time whatsoever were the SW or their rune priests ever tainted by the teachings of Magnus. In fact, the attitude and methods of the rune priests practically mirror exactly what the Emperor dictates during his speech before passing the edict; the quest for power through knowledge without first wisdom is bad, mmmkay? This is reflected in the SW codex, the Index Astartes article on Librarians (where it specifically tells you they are different), and when Wyrdmake is first debating psychic powers with Ahiriman in the beginning of the Thousand Sons. In addition, we have absolute ZERO canon, new or old, that the SW faced any punishment or sanction for the actions of their rune priests. There is not even any Primarchs that are said to have stood against the rune priests of the SW for their actions, unlike Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

The SW are hypocrites for claiming that the use of the Warp is bad, while using it themselves, and liars or fools for claiming that Rune Priests don't use Warp power.

The fact is that what happened on Prospero and to the Thousand Sons was exactly what was forewarned by the Emperor at the Council of Nikea. There was no exception given in that decree for Magnus being taken back to Terra. Whether you want to try and deflect Russ' actions with supposed orders from Horus, you also have sources citing Russ being given his orders directly from the Emperor to sanction the Thousand Sons.

But the new fluff retcons the old, and the new says that Horus changed Russ' orders and Russ gladly obeyed his new orders in order to pursue a personal vendetta, ignoring what the Emperor had told him to do.

Vaktathi wrote:

Lastly, the constant branding of the SW as hypocrites continues to be debunked time and time again. No matter what some try to claim, a rune priest is NOT a librarian.

In name only. They mistakenly (or willfuly ignorant) think their powers come from Fenris rather than the warp, and use powers based on the feral traditions of the natives of Fenris, instead of those prescribed by the Codex. Aside from the specifics of the powers and where they think their powers come from, they fulfill the same role in much the same manner.

See earlier comments regarding this. This is why the SW's are seen as hypocritical.

"Oh man, we have this dude who fulfills the same role in much the same way as your not-ok dude, but because he believes his power comes from elsewhere so he's totally ok"

I think the whole Rune Priest vs Librarian/Sorcerer is more analogous to gasoline vs bio diesel.

Both get a car from point A to point B
Both work in an engine pretty much the same way
However, how they are made and the waste products produced are very different.

Librarians are Gasoline
Rune Priests are bio diesel

It has been stated in more than one book that rune priests do do things differently. Maybe it is safer than normal psychic use. Maybe the power does come from Fenris. I don't think using the mechanics of psychic abilities in the game as a good measuring stick. Having only one set of rules is just simple and probably better game design.

I think it's also worth noting that the Thousand Sons themselves noted the power in simply believing in something; hence the power of talismans etc.

There's also a difference between using the power of the Warp (Librarians, Psykers etc.) and co-opting with the powers of the warp (Sorcerers), with the Thousand Sons leaning much more towards the latter and Rune Priests towards the former.
I don't deny there is at-least some level of hypocrisy here, but as I stated earlier, there's a lot of things that could also justify this.

Furthermore, to re-iterate, Magnus himself states that he knows Russ took no pleasure in the destruction of Prospero or the Thousand Sons.


And finally, I'll reiterate the uselessness of back-and-forth arguments that go no-where:
Back-and-forth arguments that go no-where don't contribute or resolve.

Jayden63 wrote:

I think the whole Rune Priest vs Librarian/Sorcerer is more analogous to gasoline vs bio diesel.

Both get a car from point A to point B
Both work in an engine pretty much the same way
However, how they are made and the waste products produced are very different.

Librarians are Gasoline
Rune Priests are bio diesel

It has been stated in more than one book that rune priests do do things differently. Maybe it is safer than normal psychic use. Maybe the power does come from Fenris. I don't think using the mechanics of psychic abilities in the game as a good measuring stick. Having only one set of rules is just simple and probably better game design.

Right, and I can understand this to an extent, but at the same time if they're still swimming the currents of the Warp in PB (meaning yeah, the planet Fenris probably isn't some mystical power source other than as a possible conduit to the warp) and are still described as using psychic (warp based) powers even in their fluff, and IIRC there's a passage in the Index Astartes about Rune Priests vs Librarians, and basically it boils down to "codex powers and training" versus "native fenris teachings and powers", otherwise fulfilling pretty much the same roles and general methods both on and off the battlefield.

I'm sure you could look at pretty much any chapter that's not strictly codex adherent and find similar differences. Certainly it'd be hard to see White Scars or Emperor's Children Librarians as having operated the same way using the same powers and psychic training methods as the Thousand Sons, Flesh Tearers, Doom Eagles or Raven Guard for example. Hence why the "but Runepriests are Different!" thing is hard to take seriously as anything other than "SW's are Space Marines+1!"

Vaktathi wrote:

Jayden63 wrote:

I think the whole Rune Priest vs Librarian/Sorcerer is more analogous to gasoline vs bio diesel.

Both get a car from point A to point B
Both work in an engine pretty much the same way
However, how they are made and the waste products produced are very different.

Librarians are Gasoline
Rune Priests are bio diesel

It has been stated in more than one book that rune priests do do things differently. Maybe it is safer than normal psychic use. Maybe the power does come from Fenris. I don't think using the mechanics of psychic abilities in the game as a good measuring stick. Having only one set of rules is just simple and probably better game design.

Right, and I can understand this to an extent, but at the same time if they're still swimming the currents of the Warp in PB (meaning yeah, the planet Fenris probably isn't some mystical power source other than as a possible conduit to the warp) and are still described as using psychic (warp based) powers even in their fluff, and IIRC there's a passage in the Index Astartes about Rune Priests vs Librarians, and basically it boils down to "codex powers and training" versus "native fenris teachings and powers", otherwise fulfilling pretty much the same roles and general methods both on and off the battlefield.

I'm sure you could look at pretty much any chapter that's not strictly codex adherent and find similar differences. Certainly it'd be hard to see White Scars or Emperor's Children Librarians as having operated the same way using the same powers and psychic training methods as the Thousand Sons, Flesh Tearers, Doom Eagles or Raven Guard for example. Hence why the "but Runepriests are Different!" thing is hard to take seriously as anything other than "SW's are Space Marines+1!"

And this is where your argument continues to fall apart. Your continued comparison to rune priests to librarians is akin to a police officer using his gun and a criminal using a gun.

The Index Astartes clearly and specifically makes the difference in that they are different from the codex aherent. Codex adherent are those taught by the Librairus/Librarium aka Magnus' teachings and vision. The rune priests were never part of the teachings/influence of Magnus, which was exactly what was decreed prohibited by the Emperor at the council. What the Emperor said at the council is in A Thousand Sons and it is directed and targeted specifically at Magnus and his philosophy.

Now to touch back on another point brought up by others; the percieved dual nature of the SW. We have been given example after example of how the SW think and interact in battle.

We have the incident in the Ragnar series whern Ragnar is with House Bellisarius (sp) and they hide the abduction of the black market merchant via "space accident". At Wolf at the Door, the SW show a cunning display of sustained guerilla tactics against the Dark Eldar. They displayed brilliant tactics in their initial assault on the Quietude platform and then later on using it as a tool to break the stalemate. Lastly we see an amazing display of stalling action and counter siege warfare in Battle of the Fang. The duality of the SW is indeed the real deal, far before it was introduced in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.

Funny that some people can only see the the brutality of a pack of animals yet not understand all the mechanics and intricasies of the hunt.

Just Dave wrote:And finally, I'll reiterate the uselessness of back-and-forth arguments that go no-where:
Back-and-forth arguments that go no-where don't contribute or resolve.

Know what, I agree. I was about to post something, but taking the time to think about it, I understand how futile it would be to write a reasonable answer to such claims as "Rune Priests are totally not psykers. And they're eco-friendly to boot !"

Hyd wrote:

Just Dave wrote:And finally, I'll reiterate the uselessness of back-and-forth arguments that go no-where:
Back-and-forth arguments that go no-where don't contribute or resolve.

Know what, I agree. I was about to post something, but taking the time to think about it, I understand how futile it would be to write a reasonable answer to such claims as "Rune Priests are totally not psykers. And they're eco-friendly to boot !"

Except noone at all is saying that rune priests are not psykers. They are however NOT librarians and thus now way affected by the edict passed at the Council of Nikea.

I personally don't have a problem with SW being "Smart barbarians". They know exactly what they are doing, and they are as cunning as any, and more than most. But when it comes to battle, they revel in their superiority of arms, rather than go through the motions as stoic warrior-monks like most of the other Chapters.

It's probably arguable that when you compare a Space Wolf brother to a normal warrior of Fenris, Space Wolves are the Chapter that keeps most of their inborn humanity after the change (other than the Wolfen Curse, of course). All the rest of the Chapters become these aloof monks that are set apart from humans by their change.

AegisGrimm wrote:I personally don't have a problem with SW being "Smart barbarians". They know exactly what they are doing, and they are as cunning as any, and more than most. But when it comes to battle, they revel in their superiority of arms, rather than go through the motions as stoic warrior-monks like most of the other Chapters.

It's probably arguable that when you compare a Space Wolf brother to a normal warrior of Fenris, Space Wolves are the Chapter that keeps most of their inborn humanity after the change (other than the Wolfen Curse, of course). All the rest of the Chapters become these aloof monks that are set apart from humans by their change.

The Salamanders also retain a very solid link with humanity but you are correct in that many other chapters setting themselves not only apart but also as superiors.

It is interesting that Leman Russ, when first reunited with his father, chose to keep the Fenrisian population in their current state and did not have Fenris terraformed to become a more hospitable planet. He wanted his Legion to be made up of what Fenris had created.

Brother Ramses wrote:

And this is where your argument continues to fall apart. Your continued comparison to rune priests to librarians is akin to a police officer using his gun and a criminal using a gun.

The Index Astartes clearly and specifically makes the difference in that they are different from the codex aherent. Codex adherent are those taught by the Librairus/Librarium aka Magnus' teachings and vision.


The rune priests were never part of the teachings/influence of Magnus, which was exactly what was decreed prohibited by the Emperor at the council. What the Emperor said at the council is in A Thousand Sons and it is directed and targeted specifically at Magnus and his philosophy.

Except that only Navigators and Astropaths were to remain in Astartes service employing Psychic powers.

You're trying to argue an entire concept based on naming semantics. So their rituals that extend from native (unsactioned pre-imperial primitive psychic meddlings) knowledge are somehow demonstrably superior and distinct to that utilized by the other legions/chapters (even those that themselves are quite distinct from the post heresy Codex ideal and were even more distinct from each other including from the Thousand Sons before the Heresy) in an identical organizational/battlefield role, as to be completely uncovered by an edict that mentions only Navigators and Astropaths as acceptable for psykers remaining in Astartes service? That's silly.

The difference here is not "criminal with a gun versus police with a gun" it's more "dude with Kalashnikov versus dude with M-16". Tools are different in creation and internal mechanics of operation, but ultimately do the same thing in the same role for the same sorts of people, just adapted for their circumstances. To argue that they wouldn't be covered by Nikea, where only Astropaths and Navigators were given exceptions, makes no sense.

Ultimately, one will also notice that the Thousand Sons were pretty much the only group that the Edict affected, with other Legions maintaining Librarians through the the conflict and retaining Librarians to the present game setting.

Now to touch back on another point brought up by others; the percieved dual nature of the SW. We have been given example after example of how the SW think and interact in battle.

We have the incident in the Ragnar series whern Ragnar is with House Bellisarius (sp) and they hide the abduction of the black market merchant via "space accident". At Wolf at the Door, the SW show a cunning display of sustained guerilla tactics against the Dark Eldar. They displayed brilliant tactics in their initial assault on the Quietude platform and then later on using it as a tool to break the stalemate. Lastly we see an amazing display of stalling action and counter siege warfare in Battle of the Fang. The duality of the SW is indeed the real deal, far before it was introduced in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.

Funny that some people can only see the the brutality of a pack of animals yet not understand all the mechanics and intricasies of the hunt.

It's one thing to express the subtleties and mechanics of hunting. It's another to focus over and over again on their brutality and then try and play it off as cunning, and either way the concept comes off as obnoxiously arrogant the way it's usually expressed, relying on enemies basically being far more stupid than they should be in order to make much sense.

The quietude wasn't all that brilliant, the fight described was pretty run of the mill SM battle pulp. What they focus on repeatedly is the overwhelming brutality. Later they try somehow being so brutal that it makes enemies think they are unthinking savages and thus underestimate them so the SW's can beat them with yet more brutality apparently, all the while (despite fighting for an Emperor who intends to see superstition and ritual cleansed from the universe) carve superstitious runes into everything as some sort of ward against evil.

You're both arguing opinions and semantics that are not going to change.

Vaktathi wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:

And this is where your argument continues to fall apart. Your continued comparison to rune priests to librarians is akin to a police officer using his gun and a criminal using a gun.

The Index Astartes clearly and specifically makes the difference in that they are different from the codex aherent. Codex adherent are those taught by the Librairus/Librarium aka Magnus' teachings and vision.


The rune priests were never part of the teachings/influence of Magnus, which was exactly what was decreed prohibited by the Emperor at the council. What the Emperor said at the council is in A Thousand Sons and it is directed and targeted specifically at Magnus and his philosophy.

Except that only Navigators and Astropaths were to remain in Astartes service employing Psychic powers.

You're trying to argue an entire concept based on naming semantics. So their rituals that extend from native (unsactioned pre-imperial primitive psychic meddlings) knowledge are somehow demonstrably superior and distinct to that utilized by the other legions/chapters (even those that themselves are quite distinct from the post heresy Codex ideal and were even more distinct from each other including from the Thousand Sons before the Heresy) in an identical organizational/battlefield role, as to be completely uncovered by an edict that mentions only Navigators and Astropaths as acceptable for psykers remaining in Astartes service? That's silly.

The difference here is not "criminal with a gun versus police with a gun" it's more "dude with Kalashnikov versus dude with M-16". Tools are different in creation and internal mechanics of operation, but ultimately do the same thing in the same role for the same sorts of people, just adapted for their circumstances. To argue that they wouldn't be covered by Nikea, where only Astropaths and Navigators were given exceptions, makes no sense.

Ultimately, one will also notice that the Thousand Sons were pretty much the only group that the Edict affected, with other Legions maintaining Librarians through the the conflict and retaining Librarians to the present game setting.

Now to touch back on another point brought up by others; the percieved dual nature of the SW. We have been given example after example of how the SW think and interact in battle.

We have the incident in the Ragnar series whern Ragnar is with House Bellisarius (sp) and they hide the abduction of the black market merchant via "space accident". At Wolf at the Door, the SW show a cunning display of sustained guerilla tactics against the Dark Eldar. They displayed brilliant tactics in their initial assault on the Quietude platform and then later on using it as a tool to break the stalemate. Lastly we see an amazing display of stalling action and counter siege warfare in Battle of the Fang. The duality of the SW is indeed the real deal, far before it was introduced in A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.

Funny that some people can only see the the brutality of a pack of animals yet not understand all the mechanics and intricasies of the hunt.

It's one thing to express the subtleties and mechanics of hunting. It's another to focus over and over again on their brutality and then try and play it off as cunning, and either way the concept comes off as obnoxiously arrogant the way it's usually expressed, relying on enemies basically being far more stupid than they should be in order to make much sense.

The quietude wasn't all that brilliant, the fight described was pretty run of the mill SM battle pulp. What they focus on repeatedly is the overwhelming brutality. Later they try somehow being so brutal that it makes enemies think they are unthinking savages and thus underestimate them so the SW's can beat them with yet more brutality apparently, all the while (despite fighting for an Emperor who intends to see superstition and ritual cleansed from the universe) carve superstitious runes into everything as some sort of ward against evil.

I am going to tackle the above bolded text first as it is the most blatant bs you are hinging your argument.

A Thousad Sons, page 355;

I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should have never permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a LIBRARIUS department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

That is the Emperor's edict he passed in A Thousand Sons. He specifically and directly targeted the very program that Magnus was key in creating and responsible for training/teaching. Now again, please tell me when rune priests were ever part of the Librarium program. By all means please show me where Magnus EVER had a hand in training/instructing the rune priests of the Space Wolves. You keep saying the use of psychic powers was only allowed by navigators and astropaths and yet the edict specifically only disbands the Legions Librarius departments and specifically bans those former librarians from ever employing psychic powers. You are wrong and the above quote proves it.

It isn't semantics, it is a specific difference between the attitude towards and methods of employment that proves rune priests are not librarians per the edict passed by the Emperor.

I find it humerous that you just dismiss the initial assault on the Quietude as battle pulp.

The SW employ tactics specifically to reduce the reaction time of a wired network of combatants to reduce reaction time. They then take into account the rapid adaption of their enemy to incoming fire by first using the enemies weapons against them, waiting for the adaption, and switching back to their standard fire arms. Lastly, they do not merely destroy everything in sight. They preserve the control room and the facility for the technicians to examine. Fast forward to the IG being forced into a stalemate by the Quietude on the planet and we have the wolf lord manipulate the commanders into giving him full control of the theater and using the orbital station as a weapon to break the stalemate.

Seriously, you remind me of a just bleed MMA fan that only sees a fight in one dimension and cannot see the technique and application of style. Your view of the SW only follows what they say and do, yet not account for any of the thought put into the actual battle.

I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should have never permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a LIBRARIUS department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

The way I see that quote there's two possible interpretations:

The first is "All its [the Librarius's] warriors...", which BrotherRamses has already pointed out supports the Space Wolves.

The second is "All its [the Legion's] warriors... will never again employ any psychic powers", which would make the Space Wolves bad guys indeed.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should have never permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a LIBRARIUS department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

The way I see that quote there's two possible interpretations:

The first is "All its [the Librarius's] warriors...", which BrotherRamses has already pointed out supports the Space Wolves.

The second is "All its [the Legion's] warriors... will never again employ any psychic powers", which would make the Space Wolves bad guys indeed.

Now that is arguing semantics....

However the context of the last sentence speaks to the Librarius as it includes the instructors as well.

Brother Ramses wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I see now that I have allowed my sons to delve too profoundly into matters I should have never permitted them to know even existed. Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a LIBRARIUS department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

The way I see that quote there's two possible interpretations:

The first is "All its [the Librarius's] warriors...", which BrotherRamses has already pointed out supports the Space Wolves.

The second is "All its [the Legion's] warriors... will never again employ any psychic powers", which would make the Space Wolves bad guys indeed.

Now that is arguing semantics....

That's the legal world for you.

I can nothing but dig the Space Wolfes for their refreshing anti-athority style.
When the empires consists of nothing but the Codex slave marines and the allways scared Imperial Guard, its nice with some lunatic space viking action.

I mean for the love of god, Leman Russ beated the Emperor in a drinking and eating contest! What's not to love?

akoro18 wrote:

I mean for the love of god, Leman Russ beated the Emperor in a drinking and eating contest! What's not to love?

I don't have my older Wolves codex's available, can anyone confirm that this stupid was in the older books?

Or was it just added for 5th.

How has no one mentioned that they fired at an Ecclesiarchy ship when they came to investigate Fenris? Attacking the inquisition, I can understand somewhat, but come on...

akoro18 wrote:I can nothing but dig the Space Wolfes for their refreshing anti-athority style.
When the empires consists of nothing but the Codex slave marines and the allways scared Imperial Guard, its nice with some lunatic space viking action.

I mean for the love of god, Leman Russ beated the Emperor in a drinking and eating contest! What's not to love?

I think you forgot a Chapter ...

I have nothing against them besides the terrible TWC models and the TWC idea in general. Wolf riding marines is a dumb idea and they are paving the way for the even dumber dark angel spider riders.

I simply dislike them for certain sections of the fluff, though I'm yet to encounter this dreaded 'Jaws of the World Wolf', what does it even do? I don't see why every one hates them having Wolf themed war gear, as they are 'Space Wolves', the Blood Angels on the other hand have somewhat ridiculously named War-Gear and is an example of Wards incompetence.

It's not so much Space Wolves, as it is the travesty of the fluff-ignorant fanboy abomination of a Codex inflicted upon them by Ph(a)il "Wish-I-Was-Jack-Sparrow"" Kelly.

I flick through the cooler old Space Wolves stuff or the better Black Library things, and get exited for some Wolf-action. Than I open the current Codex and read a few lines, and it almost inevitably ends with violent vomiting on my plastic toys. Also, their current "sit-back-Long-Fangs-and-JoTWW"-list happens to be not only exceedingly unbalanced cheesy, it also is easily the most "fluff-contradictory" list currently out there, which doesn't help.

The only redeeming virtue of the space wolves is that they got to be the butt of a hilarious DE practical joke, of which SWs are still ashamed to speak. (DE Codex, pg.22)

They have beards and ride wolves. Nuff said...

So many lads focused on their object of hate instead of their object of love... tsk... tsk...

(and ah mean that, sometimes ah wonder if instead of people, there are cauldrons of boilin' bile typin' on computers)

It's a newer army.

My cauldrons of love is stuck on half empty due in the fact Dark Angels has been the butt of the joke for Space marine armies.

Same with Codex: Spikey Marines

Unfair, even as a SW player, ah like 'em.

Let the love and toleratin' begin!

I'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but I like the SW fluff precisely because they act like jackasses.

Space Marines are not nice people. They are not, for the most part, rational people either. They are stormtroopers, jacked up on combat drugs, whose jingoism and xenophobia are strong enough to carry out multiple genocides unblinkingly.

This, fluffwise, is a good thing in my book. 40k is supposed to be grimdark. Having a faction you can point to and go "Oh, except them. They're the good guys." breaks that for me. There aren't supposed to be bastions of shining good. Fluff that reinforces the 41st millenium as a grim place of black vs black (or at the least, very-muddy-grey) morality and adds layers of complexity past the Saturday Morning Good vs Evil scenario is welcome. So saviors of humanity who're nontheless brutal, totalitarian donkey-caves who took the first chance they could get to wipe out their rivals? That fits my view of how 40k should be. I understand this may not be other people's ideal, but for me, it makes the setting more interesting.

So, yeah. What SW fluff I've encountered (which I'll admit is little) hasn't rubbed me the wrong way. I'll agree that the new models look a tad ridiculous, and Jaws is annoying, yes. I've not played SME in the current edition, so I can't really say much about their comparisons to the others.