Recently I faced a Grey Knight army with a Vindicare against my Imperial Guard. On the first turn it fired what is referred to as a 'Turbo-Penatrator' (ding-dong) which rolls 4d6 against armour. I called cheating and was shown the rulebook, and yes, that is possible, unsurprisingly the shot penetrated and because the rifle is AP1 the Leman Russ exploded.
Now I'm not unfamiliar with defeat, in fact I'm accustomed to it. However this was different, whilst I know a Russ isn't invulnerable it usually takes very good luck to bring one down. This Vindicator however struck such a strong chord of unrelenting broken-ness that I had to investigate further by seeing how likely it is for one to kill a tank with 14 Armour in one shot.
I found out that the basic Vindicare Assassin is 145 Pts and comes with all the trimmings. A comparable Imperial guard Tank-Killer is the Leman Russ Vanquisher, which rolls 2D6 plus 8 to penetrate, which is 155 not including upgrades such as Pask, Sponsons, Dozer-Blade etc.
For both units I rolled 150 D6s to hit, 150 2D6/4D6s (L.R.V/Ass.) to penetrate, and 150 D6s to see the result of a penetration. The results were as follows: A Vindicare has a 92% chance to hit, a L.R.V. 50%. A Vindicare has a 48% chance to Penetrate, a 13% chance to glance, and a 39% chance to do nothing, whilst the L.R.V. has a 59% chance to penetrate, 10% chance to glance, and 31% chance to not do anything. Finally a Vindicare has a 50% chance to wreak whilst the L.R.V. has a 33% chance (of course a Vindicare can also wreak on a glancing hit due to the AP1).
After number crunching I came to the conclusion that a Vindicare has a 63% chance to hit, penetrate and destroy a armour 14 tank (the percentage does not account the potential glancing hit wreckages caused by the AP1 rule), whereas a Leman Russ Vanquisher has a 48% chance to do the same. Did I mention that a Vindicare gets Fearless, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move Though Cover, Stealth, Lightning Reflexes, 4 attacks, WS 8, Ld 10, and 2 wounds? As well as being able to fire rounds which ignore invulnerable saves and is allowed to allocate wounds to their liking? All for 10 points less than a Vanilla Vanquisher?
Yes I know my experiment isn't at the apex of scientific method and yes I am aware that 'Grey Knights Are Broken' has been discussed for a while but this I feel is yet another example of why Matt Ward is a chugging idiot.
However the vindicare assassins are nowhere near as reslient as a Vanquisher. Just do anything to deny it its 2+ cover save (I'm pretty sure Ordinance Bombardment denies a cover save).
Actually a Assassin is T4 and an Elite Choice (so you can field 3 of the blighters). Also, yes, I could take 3 Vanquishers, but that's 465 pts. of dedicated Tank Killer vs 435 pts. of 3 general HQ/Tank Killer.
think what he is trying to say is the tank killer in his force isnt as good as a all rounder in another force, in a vacum i would agree with him, but the game isnt in a vacum, so a better comparison should be to another all rounder in the guard codex... veterans, when you compare vets to the vindi, you get more of a ballance, both units are faily good at a wide range of tasks you set them, for relativly few points
Fair point, the problem is is that I did field veterans, who despite being given some Plasma guns couldn't kill the Grey Knights fast enough, and since my commander was killed compliments of the Vindicare there was little to do in terms of orders. Maybe if I played at higher points so I could field a Griffon or another L. Russ to deny cover saves. (Yet again that would invite some of the nastier units of a Grey Knight's army).
fattoler wrote:Fair point, the problem is is that I did field veterans, who despite being given some Plasma guns couldn't kill the Grey Knights fast enough, and since my commander was killed compliments of the Vindicare there was little to do in terms of orders. Maybe if I played at higher points so I could field a Griffon or another L. Russ to deny cover saves. (Yet again that would invite some of the nastier units of a Grey Knight's army).
Well, on the bright side, even at higher points he could only have 1 assassin.
You may want to get that LRBT that ignores cover. And hellhounds.
I think it should be prudent to mention that this was 1000 points and I had only 2 Leman Russes (I had had some bad experiences with large tank armies so I decided to go for a few more Infantry)
DK wrote:Your math is wrong too, the Assassin uses a sniper, so its a base 3S +4D6 that rend, so 6s could add up to 3 but a min of 1 more to armor pen.
but thats why you take a vin assassin, to take out one big take or take off an enemy inv save for the game. depends what you need.
You mean I was being conservative with my calculations?
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DK wrote:no assassin can get a storm shield, and there T4...what books are you looking at?
Well in the Grey Knight's Codex I borrowed (they may have revised it since) all assassins get Toughness 4.
DK wrote:Your math is wrong too, the Assassin uses a sniper, so its a base 3S +4D6 that rend, so 6s could add up to 3 but a min of 1 more to armor pen.
but thats why you take a vin assassin, to take out one big take or take off an enemy inv save for the game. depends what you need.
You mean I was being conservative with my calculations?
yes...the chance to pen 14 armor doin quick math is like this
base 3S + avrage of 2d6=7 so far 3+14=17 plus any rends for 6s...but only gets one shot a turn.
TBH, most of the assasins when I've come across them have caused me to pause and go 'wait.. what?'.
But it's never really been a paricular issue for me.
With my Tau it fell over to plasma rifles, with Dark Eldar... well, poison weapons / lances.
They've tended to wipe out 1-2 things, but then fall over.
TBH, most of the assasins when I've come across them have caused me to pause and go 'wait.. what?'.
But it's never really been a paricular issue for me.
With my Tau it fell over to plasma rifles, with Dark Eldar... well, poison weapons / lances.
They've tended to wipe out 1-2 things, but then fall over.
O come now dear sir, I just used a online dice roller, I'm sad, but not THAT sad.
Ovion wrote:Fair enough, but that should still help in future ^-^
Thanks, it's now bookmarked. Back on topic yes I could have put in a Eradicator or a Hellhound but when you are putting in units to counter a single model on the off-chance it's deployed something is wrong...
I think the real problem is that because most of the anti-heavy infantry (i.e. Termies as troop choices) weapons (Battle and Plasma cannons) are mounted on tanks or sentinels, which understandably eat up points. Now yes I can put in some 3 Plasma gun Vets but their range is a mere 24" and unless they're Grenadiers you're not going to survive long in shooting. (Storm Troopers could be useful but I've never used them since Vets seem a better deal)
I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".
DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".
Yes, but my Leman Russ doesn't infiltrate (unless I Creed it).
i also see alot of people selling there GK army...everyone is complaining about the GK, have you seen there old Codex, ignoring INV saves, Force Weapons that could kill regardless of EW. Justicars that could hit with S10 at I5. Storm Bolters counted at an extra weapon in CC if not charging, WS5, S6 for every unit with a NFW. The same assassin but could kill a unit in CC. Storm bolters that could fire AP3. and every GK had a permanent shrouding that you had to roll 3d6x3 and that was as far as you could see them. Psycannons and Incinerators would both ing INV saves. Trust me we got nerffed, but it made GK more playable, you just have to change your game plan and outsmart them.
DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".
ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.
also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?
DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".
ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.
also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.
High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.
Why is everyone blaming ward for this? They had the Turbo-Penetrator Round before! It used to be 3D6 though, and they really weren't worth the cost back than at all.
DK wrote:i also see alot of people selling there GK army...everyone is complaining about the GK, have you seen there old Codex, ignoring INV saves, Force Weapons that could kill regardless of EW. Justicars that could hit with S10 at I5. Storm Bolters counted at an extra weapon in CC if not charging, WS5, S6 for every unit with a NFW. The same assassin but could kill a unit in CC. Storm bolters that could fire AP3. and every GK had a permanent shrouding that you had to roll 3d6x3 and that was as far as you could see them. Psycannons and Incinerators would both ing INV saves. Trust me we got nerffed, but it made GK more playable, you just have to change your game plan and outsmart them.
Well I could have taken a Hellhound but frankly what one needs against an GK army are AP 3 and 2 weapons, not flamers. I don't really use Basalisks (I prefer the more accurate Griffon to clear mobs and use the spare points for other things) but the problem with them is the minimum range makes them vulnerable to deep strike units (which GK have quite a few).
DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".
ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.
also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.
High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.
in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..
sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.
Well in a 40KRPG where the fluff is heavy then yes (in fact I'm playing a Vindicare-in-training at the moment), but on the tabletop stuff like that needs to come a tad more of a premium...
I won't say that 4d6 Armour pen is Game-breaking but it is one of those moments when you are simply lost for words when a 5th of your points goes down the plughole on your first turn...
DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".
ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.
also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.
High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.
in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..
sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.
It's hardly 'horribly unbalanced'...
He is a glass cannon.
Hits hard but is easy to kill.
We had a thread recently claiming the Vindicare was rubbish and shouldn't be used...
kb305 wrote:
in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..
sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.
Well chain axes used to have a spiffy rule where they reduced any armor save to a 4+ at best. So berzerkers used to be the gak with them even against terminators. The fluff matched the old rules, but they were nerfed like just about everyything else in the chaos dex.
DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".
ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.
also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.
High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.
in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..
sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.
Very true, but in the end thats why he is the way he is, you can only take one no matter how many pts you play, and if he makes the whole game in the law of avg he will only make 5 shots in a 6 round game, if you know your opt is takeing one take the deployment steps to work agenst him...deploy dawn of war or use Marbo if your IG, thats always a big feth you to anyone you play vs...but i dont bitch about a guy that can throw a det charge and not scatter in the same turn. you know how they fixed that prob, Warp Quake.
DarknessEternal wrote:I've never seen a Leman Russ killed by lasguns or bolters. I've seen it happen to more than one Vindicare. So I guess, by your logic, Leman Russes should be "nerfed".
ive never seen any other sniper rifle blow through land raiders like butter with an average penetration score of 17 not including rends, an average score that is 4-5 points higher than a fricken lascannon. so back to the vindicare.
also, can someone do the math on how many lasgun shots it would take to bring down the assassin.hm?
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.
High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.
in the fluff a chainsword is a really badass weapon so lets make them hit at initiative 7, strength 9 with rending on a 4+..
sorry but using the fluff to justify horribly unbalanced rules is just stupid. ive seen alot of other people do this, not just you.
Very true, but in the end thats why he is the way he is, you can only take one no matter how many pts you play, and if he makes the whole game in the law of avg he will only make 5 shots in a 6 round game, if you know your opt is takeing one take the deployment steps to work agenst him...deploy dawn of war or use Marbo if your IG, thats always a big feth you to anyone you play vs...but i dont bitch about a guy that can throw a det charge and not scatter in the same turn. you know how they fixed that prob, Warp Quake.
Actually it does scatter, just not too much, but still enough to kill Marbo the one time I used him. Not to mention that it's practically giving a killpoint to your enemy, something Guard are already prone to.
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO
.100 equates to a TENTH of an inch. 0.75cal = 3/4 inch (19 or so mm).
1.00 calibre would be 1 inch.
And it's SABOT. French for "shoe". Usually used in an APFSDS round (aka 'alphabet' round).
He has a 3+ COVER save. Plenty of things in the IG arsenal ignore cover. He kills 1 tank a turn. He can be insta-killed by just about any failed save from ordnance.
Hellhounds kill them well. No cover AND they wound on 2+.
I dislike Vindicares because they are the closest thing 40K has to a sure thing. Way higher BS than Telion, better WS than Marneus Calgar, a 3+ save that is quite hard to ignore.
He'll pretty much always hit. In the case of vehicles, you always start with the best result possible: a penetrating hit with a +1 on the damage table.
In the case of infantry, you get to remove Storm shields, iron halos, chaos icons and lots of other fun stuff. Talk about a jack-of-all-trades, master of all.
Not all armies have the means to get to the Vindicare quickly or ID him from range. Orks, necrons, many Nid lists, Salamanders. GKs may be short on Missle launchers and meltaguns, but they sure have Psyriflemen for long range, psycannons with an amazing volume of fire of 30" or less and a S10 monstrous creature if they need to open vehicles from up close.
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO
.100 equates to a TENTH of an inch. 0.75cal = 3/4 inch (19 or so mm).
1.00 calibre would be 1 inch.
And it's SABOT. French for "shoe". Usually used in an APFSDS round (aka 'alphabet' round).
He has a 3+ COVER save. Plenty of things in the IG arsenal ignore cover. He kills 1 tank a turn. He can be insta-killed by just about any failed save from ordnance.
Hellhounds kill them well. No cover AND they wound on 2+.
and a 4+ INVULN save. even if you ignore cover, he still gets a very decent saving throw.
Grey Templar wrote:He is really good at everything he does, but, honestly, does he really do a whole lot of damage that a reasonable player can't mitigate.
Lets take orks for example and assume the Vindicare never fails to kill what he's shooting at.
Turn 1: He snipes a Battlewagon and now the 20 boyz inside have to walk.
Turn 2: He kills a Mob's PK Nob(only wounds on 4+ though)
Turn 3: He kills another Nob.
Turn 4: O gosh he's in combat. 30 boyz beat the out of him, he takes a couple out with him.
So in the game he killed a Battlewagon, 2 Nobs, and a couple of Boyz. 145 points for that seems fair.
Avatar 720 wrote:One question... where are people getting this 'cover save only' idea?
My book states that all Assassins have 4+ Invulnerable saves, so even if something does ignore cover, he still has a 4+ invul...
yeah, helluva lot worse then 3+ though.
wth... what is the point of that little scenario you posted???
i can do that too.
turn 1: blows up a land raider
turn 2: blows up a land raider
turn 3: blows up a dread
turn 4: blows up a dread
Taking the roll needed to hit and the penetration roll into consideration its really only about a 25% chance to actually KILL a Landraider(or any other AV14 vehicle)
Far better then any other anti-tank in the game but hardly a sure thing.
Your example has a relativly poor chance of happening. The way the dice are set up he would actually need 4 turns to be garunteed of a LR kill, statistically speaking. Yeah, he can pop one a turn(with a decent chance of doing so) but the % have that as the less likely result.
I dislike Vindicares because they are the closest thing 40K has to a sure thing. Way higher BS than Telion, better WS than Marneus Calgar, a 3+ save that is quite hard to ignore.
Because a chemically saturated, super soldier trained JUST to shoot, just to snipe, and armed with only technology used for sniping, trained by a temple DEDICATED TO SNIPING, would be the best sniper in the Imperium, who knew! The dude doesn't even think for himself nowadays, he's so chemically saturated that he doesn't even remember he has a life outside of killing. Also, Telion shouldn't have been such a glorious sniper to begin with, being just a scout sniper trainer, and Calgar, dedicated as he is to fighting, isn't so chemically and reflexively trained to the point that he can react to combat far better than him.
He'll pretty much always hit. In the case of vehicles, you always start with the best result possible: a penetrating hit with a +1 on the damage table.
He better, he's more expensive than a sniper scout team and only gets one shot a turn, and unique, if he's not doing something per turn he's not exactly worthwhile.
In the case of infantry, you get to remove Storm shields, iron halos, chaos icons and lots of other fun stuff. Talk about a jack-of-all-trades, master of all.
Grey Templar wrote:Taking the roll needed to hit and the penetration roll into consideration its really only about a 25% chance to actually KILL a Landraider(or any other AV14 vehicle)
Far better then any other anti-tank in the game but hardly a sure thing.
Your example has a relativly poor chance of happening. The way the dice are set up he would actually need 4 turns to be garunteed of a LR kill, statistically speaking. Yeah, he can pop one a turn(with a decent chance of doing so) but the % have that as the less likely result.
I think it's a bit closer to 33%, if you're assuming the rifle gets S3+4D6 (I'll actually play it as just flat 4D6 if my opponent is more familiar with that interpretation, but I digress). With a 2+/4+ reroll to hit, that's a 91.7% chance to hit, 76.1% chance to roll 15+ on 3+4D6, and then a 50% chance to roll a 4+ to destroy the vehicle (since the rifle is AP1). Although I didn't include rending in my analysis.
Still, it's pretty fair to say that while the Vindicare may be frustratingly binary (often either complete success or complete failure), it's certainly not a one-man army stopper.
frankly the last 3 games I had with the vindicare I mised 2 shots each game and he died to a single failed las cannon shot that finally went to him since the IG ran out of dreads to kill.
The never miss thing is no match for my ability to roll double 1's.
He's an interesting beast. I've come across him where he sat in a ruin that was Bolstered by a Techmarine. Basically, he ended up with a 2+ cover save and at range so getting to him was not a viable option; just take it and try to win the objectives.
Locally, ruins are pretty much on every table, so the Techmarine/Vindicare combo was pretty effective.
I won't say broken, but I'm not a big fan of various portions of the Grey Knights codex.
DK wrote:i also see alot of people selling there GK army...everyone is complaining about the GK, have you seen there old Codex, ignoring INV saves, Force Weapons that could kill regardless of EW. Justicars that could hit with S10 at I5. Storm Bolters counted at an extra weapon in CC if not charging, WS5, S6 for every unit with a NFW. The same assassin but could kill a unit in CC. Storm bolters that could fire AP3. and every GK had a permanent shrouding that you had to roll 3d6x3 and that was as far as you could see them. Psycannons and Incinerators would both ing INV saves. Trust me we got nerffed, but it made GK more playable, you just have to change your game plan and outsmart them.
Wow. You sir win the award for most foolish statement of the year. Grey Knights nerfed?!
My Daemons would happily face the old Daemonhunters honestly. At least I get to put models on the table and not auto-lose because I lost 1 dice roll.
Because a chemically saturated, super soldier trained JUST to shoot, just to snipe, and armed with only technology used for sniping, trained by a temple DEDICATED TO SNIPING, would be the best sniper in the Imperium, who knew! The dude doesn't even think for himself nowadays, he's so chemically saturated that he doesn't even remember he has a life outside of killing. Also, Telion shouldn't have been such a glorious sniper to begin with, being just a scout sniper trainer, and Calgar, dedicated as he is to fighting, isn't so chemically and reflexively trained to the point that he can react to combat far better than him.
Given his WS of 8, he wasn't trained just to shoot. In fact, he was better trained in melee than both Mephiston and Logan Grimnar.
And even if it was, it's still askew. Several space marines, chaos marines, Eldar and Necrons have been doing their gigs for centuries, if not millenia. Telion has likely pulled his trigger more times than the average Vindicare has taken breaths in his lifetime. Just saying that the Vindicare does the Dragon Ball Z thing and trains really, -really- hard doesn't work.
As for the 'one shot a turn' thing, it's a non-issue. Hammerheads with railguns also get a single shot each turn and no one says that makes them bad. (Also, Vindicares are -far- better at killing stuff than hammerheads, and harder to shut down, too). The balance here would be that you can (kinda) spam hammerheads. But as I said, GK's actually get very decent ranged support via psyriflemen (you can get 6 if you really care) and 30" range psycannons with rending and S7. Even if you could not, it's not really that hard to protect your vindicare so that he's shooting at least 3-4 turns instead of getting locked in melee.
I have a grey knight army and I have an imperial guard army, (Same color scheme, looks really cool on the display board) Their both top tier list, their both great books. Blood Angels, Wolves, Necrons and Dark Eldar are also great books. The vindicare assassin is a good unit, not even a great unit, a good unit. He fired at a russ and blew it up, that russ could have fire at him, insta-killing him in one shot. That russ could have done so from 72" away far out of the assassins range, and then began blowing 250 point squads of grey knights off the table. For 130 points you could have brought a valk to the table, scout moving out of LOS and/or range of the assassin and then pelted him with insta-killing lascannon fire.
Here's a question. At 1000 points how do you want a grey knight player to deal with two Russes, (AV 14, 72" range, S8 AP3)? Drive or walk across the board getting pounded by guard heavy weapons + two battle cannons in order to get his psycannons in range?
Cry because dark eldar have a dark lance stapped to every possible weapons mount in their army, not because grey knights have a 0-1, 36" range, tank killer. And neither fact makes either army broken.
The fac that very few, if any, GK tournament lists have these is a good indication of their usefulness. They are an easy target and take up a slot you can dedicate to Vendreads or techmarines. Mine have died quickly and painfully in most games I field them, and underperform when they are left alone. They are best against an IG or BA mech player, and the OP happens to be the former.
Stormcrow wrote:The fac that very few, if any, GK tournament lists have these is a good indication of their usefulness. They are an easy target and take up a slot you can dedicate to Vendreads or techmarines. Mine have died quickly and painfully in most games I field them, and underperform when they are left alone. They are best against an IG or BA mech player, and the OP happens to be the former.
They don't feature in Henchmen lists or Draigowing very much.
But they are a staple, IMO, of Purifier lists and complement them very well. Especially when paired with Psyflemen.
Corny wrote:I believe infiltrators still get to setup as normal in DOW. And I really don't think guard players have any right to complain about knights.....
Infiltrators can infiltrate if they're part of the HQ/2 Troop restriction on DoW.
BRB page 93 wrote:Troops and HQ units that can infiltrate, can do so, as long as at the end of deployment the player still has a maximum of one HQ and two Troops units on the table. Lastly, players make any scout moves.
DK wrote:i also see alot of people selling there GK army...everyone is complaining about the GK, have you seen there old Codex, ignoring INV saves, Force Weapons that could kill regardless of EW. Justicars that could hit with S10 at I5. Storm Bolters counted at an extra weapon in CC if not charging, WS5, S6 for every unit with a NFW. The same assassin but could kill a unit in CC. Storm bolters that could fire AP3. and every GK had a permanent shrouding that you had to roll 3d6x3 and that was as far as you could see them. Psycannons and Incinerators would both ing INV saves. Trust me we got nerffed, but it made GK more playable, you just have to change your game plan and outsmart them.
Wow. You sir win the award for most foolish statement of the year. Grey Knights nerfed?!
My Daemons would happily face the old Daemonhunters honestly. At least I get to put models on the table and not auto-lose because I lost 1 dice roll.
You must be crazy, i would take 2 inquisitors and take two psy ability's, one would make every daemon take a Ld test -2 every turn, everyone that failed is gone, the second would make the daemons lose every gift for a turn. and your bitching about warp quake...You must have never played the DH codex army with the FAQ just before they changed to the new codex.
So we're complaining about what amounts one of the galaxy's greatest snipers being able to kill a tank, with a perfect shot? I dunno, that seems like the kind of thing that a vindicare could conceivably do, to be honest.
What amuses me amongst 40k players always is the cries of "it killed me! NERF IT!!! NERF IT!!! NERF IT!!!" Not being cheeky, but you have two choices. One is to play with kid gloves. the other, and my perference, is to kill him. Seriously, just kill him. problem solved. he's 150 odd points. its worth the investment to take him out.... and then you've got the gloating rights...
Grey Templar wrote:Taking the roll needed to hit and the penetration roll into consideration its really only about a 25% chance to actually KILL a Landraider(or any other AV14 vehicle)
...
The way the dice are set up he would actually need 4 turns to be garunteed of a LR kill, statistically speaking.
That isn't how probability works.
If he had a 25% chance of killing a Land Raider each turn, he'd have a 68% chance of killing at least one Land Raider in 4 turns.
fattoler wrote:Recently I faced a Grey Knight army with a Vindicare against my Imperial Guard. On the first turn it fired what is referred to as a 'Turbo-Penatrator' (ding-dong) which rolls 4d6 against armour. I called cheating and was shown the rulebook, and yes, that is possible, unsurprisingly the shot penetrated and because the rifle is AP1 the Leman Russ exploded.
Now I'm not unfamiliar with defeat, in fact I'm accustomed to it. However this was different, whilst I know a Russ isn't invulnerable it usually takes very good luck to bring one down. This Vindicator however struck such a strong chord of unrelenting broken-ness that I had to investigate further by seeing how likely it is for one to kill a tank with 14 Armour in one shot.
I found out that the basic Vindicare Assassin is 145 Pts and comes with all the trimmings. A comparable Imperial guard Tank-Killer is the Leman Russ Vanquisher, which rolls 2D6 plus 8 to penetrate, which is 155 not including upgrades such as Pask, Sponsons, Dozer-Blade etc.
For both units I rolled 150 D6s to hit, 150 2D6/4D6s (L.R.V/Ass.) to penetrate, and 150 D6s to see the result of a penetration. The results were as follows: A Vindicare has a 92% chance to hit, a L.R.V. 50%. A Vindicare has a 48% chance to Penetrate, a 13% chance to glance, and a 39% chance to do nothing, whilst the L.R.V. has a 59% chance to penetrate, 10% chance to glance, and 31% chance to not do anything. Finally a Vindicare has a 50% chance to wreak whilst the L.R.V. has a 33% chance (of course a Vindicare can also wreak on a glancing hit due to the AP1).
After number crunching I came to the conclusion that a Vindicare has a 63% chance to hit, penetrate and destroy a armour 14 tank (the percentage does not account the potential glancing hit wreckages caused by the AP1 rule), whereas a Leman Russ Vanquisher has a 48% chance to do the same. Did I mention that a Vindicare gets Fearless, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move Though Cover, Stealth, Lightning Reflexes, 4 attacks, WS 8, Ld 10, and 2 wounds? As well as being able to fire rounds which ignore invulnerable saves and is allowed to allocate wounds to their liking? All for 10 points less than a Vanilla Vanquisher?
Yes I know my experiment isn't at the apex of scientific method and yes I am aware that 'Grey Knights Are Broken' has been discussed for a while but this I feel is yet another example of why Matt Ward is a chugging idiot.
Keep in mind the Vanquisher is pretty much universally acknowledged to be an overpriced junker, it does not make a good comparison.
That said, the vindicare isn't that hard to deal with, and takes an Elites slot all by himself. Is it kinda silly to have a super sniper gun penetrating heavy tanks through the front with relative frequency? Sure, but the Vindicare's utility if often somewhat limited, and if you're not giving him heavy battle tanks to shoot at, then he's relatively wasted in that role.
Because a chemically saturated, super soldier trained JUST to shoot, just to snipe, and armed with only technology used for sniping, trained by a temple DEDICATED TO SNIPING, would be the best sniper in the Imperium, who knew! The dude doesn't even think for himself nowadays, he's so chemically saturated that he doesn't even remember he has a life outside of killing. Also, Telion shouldn't have been such a glorious sniper to begin with, being just a scout sniper trainer, and Calgar, dedicated as he is to fighting, isn't so chemically and reflexively trained to the point that he can react to combat far better than him.
Given his WS of 8, he wasn't trained just to shoot. In fact, he was better trained in melee than both Mephiston and Logan Grimnar.
And even if it was, it's still askew. Several space marines, chaos marines, Eldar and Necrons have been doing their gigs for centuries, if not millenia. Telion has likely pulled his trigger more times than the average Vindicare has taken breaths in his lifetime. Just saying that the Vindicare does the Dragon Ball Z thing and trains really, -really- hard doesn't work.
The funny thing is, they aren't depending fully upon training, at all. They are Chemically filled to the brim with out and out chemicals that saturate their muscles, and go through it many times over, which could be compared to space marines. Not to mention they are given VAST amounts of wargear, combat drugs, and various linked subsystems within their heads to enhance their bodies until they are at the point where they are the perfect killing machines, not to mention the various implants, cybernetics, and other mechanical advantages.
The things you are saying about the Space Marines is pretty much akin to "He has fought longer! So thus he should be better" Well there's only a point where battle experience can kick in, as proven by Tycho and Lysander. And a few older marines, being worse than the Gray Knight Champions and Draigo. The problem is most of the stuff used to be given to the temples isn't represented by wargear or special rules anymore, so you don't really know what all the powerful, special gear they get from their Officio Assassinorum anymore.
Mostly it's also because an abstract of rules. Otherwise we'd have blood-letters and other various daemons being the true strongest things in the universe since all they do is kill, train, murder, and should logically be up there with space marine Chapter masters, rather than just WS5
Grey Templar wrote:Taking the roll needed to hit and the penetration roll into consideration its really only about a 25% chance to actually KILL a Landraider(or any other AV14 vehicle)
...
The way the dice are set up he would actually need 4 turns to be garunteed of a LR kill, statistically speaking.
That isn't how probability works.
If he had a 25% chance of killing a Land Raider each turn, he'd have a 68% chance of killing at least one Land Raider in 4 turns.
I know that but I'm not sure how to do the exact math.
sudojoe wrote:frankly the last 3 games I had with the vindicare I mised 2 shots each game and he died to a single failed las cannon shot that finally went to him since the IG ran out of dreads to kill.
The never miss thing is no match for my ability to roll double 1's.
Oh my god, this. I don't know how I miss so often with mine.
To the OT, the Vindicare is not that big a deal. 6 S8 shots at BS3 will kill him in his 3+ cover.
Having such a good chance to pen doesn't guarantee a kill. It's 50% from there and then maybe another 50% if the target has cover. Considering that he has to choose between moving and firing, it's pretty easy to out-maneuver his LOS to get that save. And his range for that matter, as the aforementioned 6 missiles out-range him by a whole foot.
My efforts to solve the problem of the probability of a Vindicare Assassin penetrating a Land Raider's armor have met with little success; not factoring Rending in produces a result of 76%. Based on that number, a Vindicare Assassin should have around a 34% chance of destroying an AV 14 vehicle in one shot. Now consider: six Fire Dragons with an Exarch using both Exarch powers have an 85% chance of killing an AV 14 tank in one turn of shooting, and are 128pts versus 145 for the Assassin. Two double-multi-melta Land Speeders will down an AV 14 vehicle 58% of the time at 140pts. Anti-tank units are pretty damned good at killing tanks that you paid much more for than the anti-tank unit, regardless of the army or how much you feel like calling 'cheese!' on them.
youre not factoring in range or survivability. those landspeeders need to be within 12 inchs to do jack, the vindicare can do it from three feet away. they can also be glanced by bolter fire. those speeders dont have a 4+ invuln, 2 wounds and they cant hide - theyre big targets. i could go on but you get the point.
and ya factoring in the rends the vindicars chance to pen is probably in the mid to high 80s.
even if he doesnt outright destroy said landraider, he's almost guaranteed to do something really horrible to it.
thinking about it, if the points were equal, i would still take a vindicare over four of those melta speeders. use a techmarine to bolster his hiding spot. that would be a very annoying combo. you would basically need to alter your list specifically with stuff that ignores cover to even beable to deal with him
actually from a GK player's standpoint, I'd rather take the speeders if they were available in the codex. I find them to be far superior as I can do alot of contesting/flat out cover save when needed, and deploy alot of damage with the tempest versions. Missle spam has it's uses. Vindicare relies on your enemy to get into the right position. Speeders can get to where I want them. It's a different style of play. And yes, while you can glance speeders with bolters, you can also kill the vindicare with said bolters too. I can maybe kill one guy in your bolter blob and you probably wlll manuver to get cover anyway but my MM/HF speeder can melt alot of bolters for similar chance to get burned down on the subsequent turn from bolters.
Also, my fast attack slots are often open, my elite slots get filled fast, it's an easy choice given my play perference.
Anything strength 8 or higher can instant kill a vindicare. For example I have lost one in my opponents first turn - lascannon shot to the face. And they are opne of the few shooty tank killers
nosferatu1001 wrote:For killing vehicles, a 135 point psyrifleman is far, far better at anything up to Av14 than a singe vindicare.
I'm actually not sure they do that well vs AV 13 either. The necron shield walls around the local metas here really start to make the dreads alot less effective. Great at AV 12 or less though.
So far I've played him a lot and he has failed to do anything useful in some games (instant death) and in others he has been awesome (killing hwt with his double wounders and chimeras) so he seems to be good or rubbish. I think he is fairly priced.
so do you think that real life snipers should be nerfed as well? cause they can take out a tank as well. With todays technology we can take out a tank with a single round, you don't think with 10s of thousands of years we won't come up with more awesome ways?
Things like the Barret, Steyr and Beowulf .50cal are what is known as Anti-Materiel rifles, specifically designed for penetrating armour. These are the modern versions of what used to be known as Anti-Tank guns.
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.
High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.
No, that will not melt a tank, and on top of that, that round would be impossible to fire from the shoulder.
Here's some statistics for a contemporary round using roughly the same specifications and composition as the round you're talking about. Here is a hint. This round is not fired from the shoulder because the gun that fires it looks like this in comparison to a Volkswagon Beetle:
Spoiler:
That gatling cannon fires a 30mm depleted uranium core round. That's 1.18 inches in diameter, in other words a larger diameter than your fantasy round. The gun that fires it also weighs 4,000 pounds.
The bullet that gatling cannon fires carries 243,291 Joules of kinetic energy at the muzzle. Sounds like a lot, especially compared to a rifle that actually -can- be fired from the shoulder, for instance, let's take a powerful shoulder fire cartridge like a .50 BMG, which has a mere 18,000 Joules of kinetic energy at the muzzle. The .50 BMG is known as a shoulder busting round, so much so that the version that Barrett produces for the contemporary US military carries a substantial muzzle break and internal mechanisms meant to dampen recoil. In spite of this, the .50 BMG, one of the most powerful shoulder-fired man-portable rifles in use today carries a mere 7% of the kinetic energy that the 30mm round mentioned above carries. In short, assuming you could lift the roughly 2 ton gatling rifle itself, you would now be posed with sustaining the recoil of a single shot from this cannon at 13 times the kinetic energy of a .50 BMG, which you obviously can not do.
That, in spite of the fact that this same weapon pierces a mere 69mm of Rolled Homogenous Steel Armor at 500 meters. Hot tip, tanks carried more armor than that in the 1960s. Today, they have many times more armor than that, it is not homogenous steel, it in fact is a composite mixture including depleted uranium of much greater thickness than RHA.
In fact, a Panther I tank from World War 2 armed with a 75mm KwK42 L/70 was capable of piercing 124mm of RHA at that range. It also carried 6 million Joules of kinetic energy, or roughly 25 times the kinetic energy at the muzzle. And it was installed into the chassis of a 45 metric ton tank, with a double baffled muzzle brake and a recoil system, because otherwise the entire 45 metric ton tank would be recoiled back from the force of the shell being expended. And in spite of all this, a Panther tank would be utterly incapable of piercing even the rear armor of a modern MBT like the M1 Abrams tank.
In a nutshell, it is positively physically impossible for a man-portable, shoulder-fired weapon having enough kinetic energy to pierce the front armor of an MBT. It doesn't make sense. It is fantasy. Such a thing cannot be reasoned into existence or even reasoned about, because it is not even remotely in the realm of possibility. It exists solely in the mind of Matt Ward. Do not try to make sense of it.
I disagree that a man portable rifle cannot ever penetrate a MBT. A large enough round could use more than kinetic energy - its just not cost efficient to research and develop such a round today.
rigeld2 wrote:I disagree that a man portable rifle cannot ever penetrate a MBT. A large enough round could use more than kinetic energy - its just not cost efficient to research and develop such a round today.
What magic bananas are you talking about here?
A bullet is simply a solid mass projectile propelled at high velocity by gunpowder and stabilized by rifling grooves in the barrel. They work the same way in tanks as they do in rifles.
If you made the bullet larger, it would expend so much kinetic energy that it would break your shoulder, and it would still not be enough to penetrate an MBT. It is physically impossible. It is part of the laws of physics. If you had a projectile as powerful as the KwK42 L/70 used in the Panther tank, it would both rip your shoulder off and bounce harmlessly off a contemporary MBT.
rigeld2 wrote:Shaped charge 20mm round, with 38,000 years of technology, I could see it happening.
Kinetic energy is not the only way to penetrate armor.
Okay, I'm sorry, I misread that.
A shaped charge round is not a rifle, and it is not propelled by gunpowder. We call those things HEAT rounds, and they're already in 40k. They're called "Missile Launchers," and they bounce off of AV14 in 40k rules.
Now, I wouldn't disagree with the fluff if the Vindicare Assassin carried a special, advanced HEAT round that was able to pierce the front of an AV14 model, but it says right there in the entry that it's a rifle.
for fluff reference, the assassin sniper rifle fires a .100cal (1inch) SN1J6 round kinda like a depleted uranium round or SABO round. In the army today that uses them it will melt a tank to the ground.
High power and deadly to anything, to me he should be worth 200pts and his rifle ing inv Svs. but if you dont like that be glad its not the old codex.
No, that will not melt a tank, and on top of that, that round would be impossible to fire from the shoulder.
Here's some statistics for a contemporary round using roughly the same specifications and composition as the round you're talking about. Here is a hint. This round is not fired from the shoulder because the gun that fires it looks like this in comparison to a Volkswagon Beetle:
Spoiler:
That gatling cannon fires a 30mm depleted uranium core round. That's 1.18 inches in diameter, in other words a larger diameter than your fantasy round. The gun that fires it also weighs 4,000 pounds.
The bullet that gatling cannon fires carries 243,291 Joules of kinetic energy at the muzzle. Sounds like a lot, especially compared to a rifle that actually -can- be fired from the shoulder, for instance, let's take a powerful shoulder fire cartridge like a .50 BMG, which has a mere 18,000 Joules of kinetic energy at the muzzle. The .50 BMG is known as a shoulder busting round, so much so that the version that Barrett produces for the contemporary US military carries a substantial muzzle break and internal mechanisms meant to dampen recoil. In spite of this, the .50 BMG, one of the most powerful shoulder-fired man-portable rifles in use today carries a mere 7% of the kinetic energy that the 30mm round mentioned above carries. In short, assuming you could lift the roughly 2 ton gatling rifle itself, you would now be posed with sustaining the recoil of a single shot from this cannon at 13 times the kinetic energy of a .50 BMG, which you obviously can not do.
That, in spite of the fact that this same weapon pierces a mere 69mm of Rolled Homogenous Steel Armor at 500 meters. Hot tip, tanks carried more armor than that in the 1960s. Today, they have many times more armor than that, it is not homogenous steel, it in fact is a composite mixture including depleted uranium of much greater thickness than RHA.
In fact, a Panther I tank from World War 2 armed with a 75mm KwK42 L/70 was capable of piercing 124mm of RHA at that range. It also carried 6 million Joules of kinetic energy, or roughly 25 times the kinetic energy at the muzzle. And it was installed into the chassis of a 45 metric ton tank, with a double baffled muzzle brake and a recoil system, because otherwise the entire 45 metric ton tank would be recoiled back from the force of the shell being expended. And in spite of all this, a Panther tank would be utterly incapable of piercing even the rear armor of a modern MBT like the M1 Abrams tank.
In a nutshell, it is positively physically impossible for a man-portable, shoulder-fired weapon having enough kinetic energy to pierce the front armor of an MBT. It doesn't make sense. It is fantasy. Such a thing cannot be reasoned into existence or even reasoned about, because it is not even remotely in the realm of possibility. It exists solely in the mind of Matt Ward. Do not try to make sense of it.
2 things,
1) Mat Ward had NOTHING to do with this. The Vindicare has existed more or less unchanged since 2nd edition IIRC.
2) We have no idea what the Exitus rifle is made of or even what exactly it fires. For all we know it could phase out of realspace allowing it to bypass armor to strike the vital protions and explode. The Rifle could have subdimensional recoil absorbers allowing it to actually fire a round powerful enough to physically penetrate.
rigeld2 wrote:Shaped charge 20mm round, with 38,000 years of technology, I could see it happening.
Kinetic energy is not the only way to penetrate armor.
But then surely 38000 years of Armour technology would have caught up? (Adamantium and Plasteel for example). Honestly trying to bring realism to Warhammer 40k is fruitless and pedantic, and I started a nerf thread. (on that subject surely 3d6 for Pen would be more suitable, or even better just make the Vindicare a character killer, like an Assassin should be.)
rigeld2 wrote:Shaped charge 20mm round, with 38,000 years of technology, I could see it happening.
Kinetic energy is not the only way to penetrate armor.
Okay, I'm sorry, I misread that.
A shaped charge round is not a rifle, and it is not propelled by gunpowder. We call those things HEAT rounds, and they're already in 40k. They're called "Missile Launchers," and they bounce off of AV14 in 40k rules.
Now, I wouldn't disagree with the fluff if the Vindicare Assassin carried a special, advanced HEAT round that was able to pierce the front of an AV14 model, but it says right there in the entry that it's a rifle.
A rifle is just a (usually) shoulder fired weapon with a rifled barrel.
But I'll bow out of the conversation - the Vindicare is fine.
Its reasonable that they could come up with some sort of ultra melta round made specially to penetrate tanks? Vindicaire is probably my favorite assassin but he suffers from the typical kill one thing then get destroyed next turn.
Not as such but the anti terror laws should do And since when has the FBI needed any laws to investigate someone wandering around with a nuclear weapon...?
Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet. Psychic powers explain everything!
As to the davy crocket, it's illegal for any private citizen to own or operate a nuclear device for the US the last time I checked. If it's got anything to do with radiation, the nuclear regulatory agency has sole control of it.
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet. Psychic powers explain everything!
So just like everything else in 40k, it works because magic.
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet.
I would wager that many Exitus rifles have existed longer then the entire Tau species. They were only club thumping savages a couple thousand years ago.
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet.
I would wager that many Exitus rifles have existed longer then the entire Tau species. They were only club thumping savages a couple thousand years ago.
well they used to be 3d6 too and now upgraded to 4d6...I smell stolen tech!
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet.
I would wager that many Exitus rifles have existed longer then the entire Tau species. They were only club thumping savages a couple thousand years ago.
well they used to be 3d6 too and now upgraded to 4d6...I smell stolen tech!
I just smell rules changes that have nothing to do with the fluff.
So yeah...when we're playing a tabletop game that features plastic models representing psychic superhumans fighting space elves, our first and foremost concern should be realism.
We now return you to your scheduled game of tanks grinding to a halt for trying to ram jetbikes and plasma balls bouncing off a guy when half of his friends are behind a nearby bush. Carry on.
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet.
I would wager that many Exitus rifles have existed longer then the entire Tau species. They were only club thumping savages a couple thousand years ago.
well they used to be 3d6 too and now upgraded to 4d6...I smell stolen tech!
I just smell rules changes that have nothing to do with the fluff.
Well, I don't know the current grey knights codex but this was a rules question in the previous one.. They said the turbo penetrator rolled 3D6 armor pen but it was unclear if this was a total number or if you still added another 1D6 like with any other weapon. It seems they've removed the confusion. Also Vindicares only got to use ONE turbo penetrator shot per battle.
sudojoe wrote:Maybe the imperium just ripped off the Tau and that exitus rifle is just a fancy rail gun of some sort and since it's the imperium, it's some sort of psych enhanced super bullet.
I would wager that many Exitus rifles have existed longer then the entire Tau species. They were only club thumping savages a couple thousand years ago.
well they used to be 3d6 too and now upgraded to 4d6...I smell stolen tech!
I just smell rules changes that have nothing to do with the fluff.
Well, I don't know the current grey knights codex but this was a rules question in the previous one.. They said the turbo penetrator rolled 3D6 armor pen but it was unclear if this was a total number or if you still added another 1D6 like with any other weapon. It seems they've removed the confusion. Also Vindicares only got to use ONE turbo penetrator shot per battle.
and the old one was FAQd the exact same way as the current one.
It was a sniper rifle that rolls 3D6 for penetration. so 3+3D6+rending
The single shot was just stupid from a rules perspective with the current meta so that going away was fully expected.
Wow. You sir win the award for most foolish statement of the year. Grey Knights nerfed?! 
